The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - Introduction to the Idea of God

00:00:00.880 Hey everyone, real quick before you skip, I want to talk to you about something serious and important.

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00:00:54.640 Welcome to the Jordan B. Peterson podcast.

00:00:57.400 You can support these podcasts by donating to Dr. Peterson's Patreon account,

00:01:03.300 the link to which can be found in the description.

00:01:07.820 Dr. Peterson's self-development programs, self-authoring, can be found at selfauthoring.com.

00:01:14.540 This episode of the Jordan B. Peterson podcast is the first of a 12-part series

00:01:19.300 on the psychological significance of the biblical stories.

00:01:22.380 It's entitled, Introduction to the Idea of God.

00:01:28.580 Dr. Peterson will be performing the remainder of the lecture series every Tuesday

00:01:33.260 throughout the remainder of the summer at the Isabel Bader Theatre in Toronto.

00:01:37.760 You can find tickets for future events in this biblical series in the description of this episode

00:01:43.780 or at jordanbpeterson.com slash bible dash series.

00:01:48.420 Well, thank you all very much for coming.

00:01:53.820 It's really shocking to me that you don't have anything better to do on a Tuesday night.

00:02:00.220 No, seriously though, it is.

00:02:02.240 I mean, you know, it's very strange in some sense that there's so many of you here to

00:02:07.840 listen to a sequence of lectures on the psychological significance of the biblical stories.

00:02:13.700 It isn't something I've wanted to do for a long time, but it still does surprise me that

00:02:19.080 there's a ready audience for it.

00:02:23.840 And, well, so that's good.

00:02:27.360 So, we'll see how it goes.

00:02:29.100 And I'll start with this, because this is the right question.

00:02:32.960 The right question is, why bother doing this?

00:02:35.240 And I don't mean, why should I bother doing it?

00:02:37.660 I have my own reasons for doing it, but you might think, well, why bother with this strange

00:02:43.900 old book at all?

00:02:46.340 And that's a good question, you know.

00:02:54.260 It's a contradictory document that's been cobbled together over thousands of years.

00:03:01.080 It's outlasted kingdoms, many, many kingdoms.

00:03:03.900 You know, it's really interesting that it turns out that a book is more durable than

00:03:08.480 stone.

00:03:09.820 It's more durable than a castle.

00:03:11.280 It's more durable than an empire.

00:03:13.440 And that's really interesting, you know, that it's something, in some sense, so evanescent

00:03:18.300 can be so long-living.

00:03:22.040 So, there's that.

00:03:23.200 That's kind of a mystery.

00:03:24.900 I'm approaching this whole scenario, the biblical stories, as if they're a mystery, fundamentally.

00:03:32.120 Because they are, there's a lot we don't understand about them.

00:03:35.800 We don't understand how they came about.

00:03:38.940 We don't really understand how they were put together.

00:03:42.120 We don't understand why they had such an unbelievable impact on civilization.

00:03:47.480 We don't understand how people could have believed them.

00:03:50.600 We don't understand what it means that we don't believe them now, or even what it would

00:03:54.460 mean if we did believe them.

00:03:56.020 And then, on top of all that, there's the additional problem, which isn't specific to

00:04:04.160 me, but is certainly relevant to me, that no matter how educated you are, you're not

00:04:09.780 educated enough to discuss the psychological significance of the biblical stories.

00:04:14.200 But I'm going to do my best, and partly because I want to learn more about them, and one of

00:04:21.780 the things I've learned is that the best way to learn about something is to talk about

00:04:26.880 it.

00:04:27.740 And when I'm lecturing, I'm thinking, you know, I'm not trying to tell you what I know for

00:04:32.460 sure to be the case, because there's lots of things I don't know for sure to be the case.

00:04:37.340 I'm trying to make sense out of this, and I have been doing this for a long time.

00:04:41.100 Now, you know, you may know, you may not, that I'm an admirer of Nietzsche.

00:04:49.200 Nietzsche was a devastating critic of, I would say, dogmatic Christianity, Christianity as it

00:04:55.260 was instantiated in institutions, I suppose.

00:04:58.960 Although he's a very paradoxical thinker, because, for example, one of the things Nietzsche

00:05:03.500 said was that he didn't believe that the scientific revolution would have ever got off the ground

00:05:09.340 if it hadn't been for Christianity, and more specifically for Catholicism, because he believed

00:05:15.260 that over the course of, really, a thousand years, the European mind, so to speak, had to

00:05:25.340 train itself to interpret everything that was known within a single coherent framework.

00:05:33.280 coherent, if you accept the initial axioms, a single coherent framework.

00:05:38.140 And so, Nietzsche believed that that Catholicization of the phenomena of life and of history produced

00:05:46.840 the kind of mind that was then capable of transcending its dogmatic foundations and then concentrating

00:05:53.460 on something else, which in this particular case happened to be the natural world.

00:05:57.400 And so, Nietzsche believed that, in some sense, Christianity died at its own hand.

00:06:02.320 It had spent a very long period of time trying to attune people to the necessity of the truth,

00:06:09.500 you know, absent the corruption and all of that, that's always part of any human endeavor.

00:06:14.360 And then the truth, the spirit of the truth that was developed by Christianity turned on

00:06:18.860 the roots of Christianity.

00:06:20.460 And everyone woke up and said something like, or thought something like, well, how is it that

00:06:24.720 we came to believe any of this?

00:06:27.880 It's like waking up one day and noting that you really don't know why you put a Christmas

00:06:32.020 tree up, but you've been doing it for a long time, and that's what people do.

00:06:35.800 And, you know, there are reasons that Christmas trees came about, but the, what would you say,

00:06:42.420 the ritual lasts long after the reasons have been forgotten.

00:06:46.120 So, now, Nietzsche, although he was a critic of Christianity, and also a champion of its

00:06:56.080 disciplinary capacity, because, you see, the other thing that Nietzsche believed was that

00:07:00.000 it was not possible to be free, in some sense, unless you had been a slave.

00:07:05.940 And by that, he meant that you don't go from childhood to full-fledged adult individuality.

00:07:13.480 You go from childhood to a state of discipline, which you might think is akin to slavery, to

00:07:20.580 self-imposed slavery.

00:07:22.080 That would be the best scenario, where you have to discipline yourself to become something

00:07:27.440 specific before you might be able to reattain the generality that you had as a child.

00:07:33.300 God, and he believed that Christianity had played that role for Western civilization, but

00:07:41.200 in the late 1800s, he announced that God was dead, and you often hear of that as something

00:07:50.320 triumphant, but for Nietzsche, it wasn't, because he was too nuanced a thinker to be

00:07:56.020 that simple-minded.

00:07:57.660 See, Nietzsche understood that, and this is something I'm going to try to make clear, is

00:08:02.460 that there's a very large amount that we don't know about the structure of experience, that

00:08:12.060 we don't know about reality, and we have articulated representations of the world, and then you

00:08:18.420 can think of outside of that, there are things we know absolutely nothing about, and there's

00:08:22.140 a buffer between them, and those are things we sort of know something about, and we don't

00:08:26.720 know them in an articulated way.

00:08:28.300 Here's an example, you know, sometimes you're arguing with someone close to you, and they're

00:08:32.740 in a bad mood, you know, and they're being touchy and unreasonable, and you keep the conversation

00:08:39.380 up, and maybe all of a sudden they get angry, or maybe they cry, and then when they cry,

00:08:44.180 they figure out what they're angry about, and it has nothing to do with you, even though

00:08:47.380 you might have been what precipitated the argument.

00:08:49.900 You know, and that's an interesting phenomenon as far as I'm concerned, because it means that

00:08:53.660 people can know things at one level without being able to speak what they know at another,

00:08:58.900 and so in some sense the thoughts rise up from the body, and they do that in moods, and they

00:09:04.540 do that in images, and they do that in actions, and we have all sorts of ways that we understand

00:09:10.340 before we understand in a fully articulated manner.

00:09:12.900 And so, we have this articulated space that we can all discuss, and then outside of that,

00:09:18.380 we have something that's more akin to a dream that we're embedded in, and it's an emotional

00:09:23.040 dream that we're embedded in, and that's based at least in part on our actions, and I'll

00:09:27.360 describe that later.

00:09:28.360 And then outside of that is what we don't know anything about at all, and in that dream,

00:09:33.840 that's where the mystics live, and that's where the artists live, and they're the mediators

00:09:38.060 between the absolute unknown and the things we know for sure, and you see, what that means

00:09:45.480 in some sense is what we know is established on a form of knowledge that we don't really

00:09:51.280 understand, and that if those two things are out of sync, so you might say if our articulated

00:09:55.960 knowledge is out of sync with our dream, then we become dissociated internally.

00:10:02.160 We think things we don't act out, and we act out things we don't dream, and that produces

00:10:07.040 a kind of sickness of the spirit, and that sickness of the spirit, see, its cure is something

00:10:15.100 like an integrated system of belief and representation, and then people turn to things like ideologies,

00:10:22.460 which I regard as parasites on an underlying religious substructure, to try to organize their

00:10:27.220 thinking, and then that's a catastrophe, and that's what Nietzsche foresaw, you see, he knew

00:10:32.200 that when we knocked the slats out of the base of Western civilization by destroying this

00:10:37.520 representation, this god ideal, let's say, that we would destabilize and move back and

00:10:44.180 forth violently between nihilism, let's say, and the extremes of ideology.

00:10:48.140 He was particularly concerned about radical left ideology, you know, and believed and predicted

00:10:54.040 this in the late 1800s, which is really an absolute intellectual tour de force of staggering magnitude,

00:11:00.360 that in the 20th century that hundreds of millions of people would die because of the replacement

00:11:05.680 of these underlying dream-like structures with this rational, rational but deeply incorrect

00:11:12.420 representation of the world, and, you know, we've been oscillating back and forth between

00:11:16.560 left and right in some sense ever since, and, you know, with some good sprinkling of nihilism

00:11:21.840 in there and despair, and in some sense that's the situation of the modern Western person,

00:11:26.640 and increasingly of people in general, you know, I think part of the reason that Islam

00:11:33.640 has its back-up with regards to the West, to such a degree, I mean, there's many reasons,

00:11:37.640 and not all of them are valid, that's for sure, but one of the reasons is that, you know,

00:11:42.960 being still grounded in a dream, let's say, they can see that the rootless, questioning mind

00:11:49.640 mind of the West poses a tremendous danger to the integrity of their culture, now, and it does,

00:11:55.580 I mean, Westerners, us, we undermine ourselves all the time with our searching intellect,

00:12:01.420 and I'm not complaining about that, you know, I mean, there isn't anything easy that can be done

00:12:07.040 about it, but it's still a sort of fruitful catastrophe, and, you know, it has real effects

00:12:16.340 on people's lives, it's not some abstract thing, you know, I mean, lots of times when I've been

00:12:21.940 treating people for depression, for example, or anxiety, they have existential issues, you know,

00:12:26.840 it's not just some psychiatric condition, it's not just that they're tapped off of normal

00:12:31.260 because their brain chemistry is faulty, although, you know, sometimes that happens to be the case,

00:12:36.640 it's that they are overwhelmed by the suffering and complexity of their life, and they're not sure

00:12:42.000 why it's reasonable to continue with it, you know, they can feel the terrible negative meanings of

00:12:48.840 life, but are skeptical beyond belief about any of the positive meanings. I had one client who was a

00:12:54.280 very brilliant artist, and as long as he didn't think, he was fine, you know, because he'd go and

00:12:59.380 create, and he was really good at being an artist, he just, you know, he had that personality that was

00:13:04.200 continually creative and quite brilliant, although he was self-denigrating, and, but as soon as he

00:13:09.540 started to think about what he was doing, then, you know, the, the, what, it's like a, it's like a drill

00:13:17.140 or a thaw or something like that, he'd saw the branch off that he was sitting on, because he'd start

00:13:22.040 to criticize what he was doing, even the utility of it, even though it was sort of self-evidently

00:13:26.620 useful, and then he would be, then it would be very, very hard for him to even motivate himself to

00:13:31.440 create, and he always struck me as a good example of, of the consequences of having your rational

00:13:41.480 intellect divorced in some way from your being, divorced enough so that it actually questions the

00:13:47.180 utility of your being, and it's not a good thing, it's not a good thing, and it's really not a good

00:13:54.640 thing, because it manifests itself not only in individual psychopathology, but also in social

00:14:00.100 psychopathology, and that's this proclivity of people to get tangled up in ideologies, which,

00:14:04.920 which I really do think of as, as, they're like, they're like crippled religions, that's the right

00:14:10.380 way to think about them, they're like a religion that's missing an arm and a leg, but can still

00:14:14.160 hobble along, and it, it provides a certain amount of security and group identity, but it's, it's warped

00:14:19.560 and twisted and demented and bent, and it's a parasite on something underlying that's rich and true, and

00:14:25.560 that's how it looks to me anyways, and, and so, so I think it's very important that we sort out this

00:14:32.720 problem, um, I think that, I think that there isn't anything more important that needs to be done than

00:14:39.020 that, I've, I've thought that for a long, long time, uh, probably since the early 80s, uh, when I started

00:14:46.760 looking at the psych, the role that belief systems played in regulating psychological and social

00:14:52.800 health, um, because they, you can tell that they do that because of how upset people get if you

00:14:59.320 challenge their belief systems, it's like, why the hell do they care exactly, what difference does it

00:15:03.640 make if, if all of your ideological axioms are a hundred percent correct, like, people get unbelievably

00:15:10.500 upset when you, when you poke them in the axioms, so to speak, and it isn't, it is not by any stretch

00:15:17.500 of the imagination obvious why, you know, but there's some, it's like, there's a fundamental truth

00:15:23.460 that they're standing on, it's, it's, it's like they're on a raft in the middle of the ocean, and

00:15:27.720 you're starting to pull out the logs, you know, and they're afraid they're going to fall in and drown,

00:15:32.020 it's like, drown in what, and what are the logs protecting themselves, protecting them from, and why are

00:15:37.580 they so afraid to, to move beyond the confines of the ideological system, and these are not obvious

00:15:43.940 things, so, I've been trying to puzzle that out for a very long time, and I've, I've done some lectures

00:15:50.720 about that, that are on YouTube, most of you know that, and some of what I'm going to talk about in

00:15:55.260 this series, you'll have heard if, if you've listened to the YouTube videos, but, you know, I'm trying to

00:16:00.480 hit it from different angles, and so, okay, so Nietzsche's idea was that human beings were going to have to

00:16:07.260 create their own values, essentially, now he understood that we had bodies, and that we had

00:16:12.100 motivations and emotions, like he was a romantic thinker in some sense, but way ahead of his time,

00:16:16.820 because he knew that our capacity to think wasn't some free-floating soul, but was embedded in our

00:16:23.240 physiology, constrained by our emotions, shaped by our motivations, shaped by our body, he understood

00:16:29.060 that, but he still believed that the only possible way out of the problem would be for human beings

00:16:35.360 themselves to become something akin to God, and to create their own values, that was, that's, and he

00:16:41.460 thought that the person, he talked about the person who could create their own values as the over-man,

00:16:46.280 or the super-man, and that was one of the parts of Nietzschean philosophy that the Nazis, I would say,

00:16:52.040 took out of context, and used to fuel their, you know, superior man ideology, so, and we know what

00:17:00.440 happened with that, that didn't seem to turn out very well, that's for sure, and, see, I also spent

00:17:06.660 a lot of time reading Carl Jung, and it was through Jung, and also Jean Piaget, who's a developmental

00:17:11.640 psychologist, that I started to understand that our articulated systems of thought are embedded in

00:17:18.460 something like a dream, and that that dream is informed in a complex way by the way we act, so,

00:17:24.920 you know, we act out things we don't understand all the time, and if that wasn't the case, then we

00:17:31.200 wouldn't need a psychology, or a sociology, or an anthropology, or any of that, because we would

00:17:35.200 be completely transparent to ourselves, and we're clearly not, so we're much more complicated than

00:17:41.060 we understand, which means that the way that we behave contains way more information than we know,

00:17:47.300 and part of the dream that surrounds our articulated knowledge has been extracted as a consequence of

00:17:53.580 us watching each other behave, and telling stories about it for thousands, and thousands, and thousands

00:17:58.800 of years, extracting out patterns of behavior that characterize humanity, and trying to represent

00:18:05.560 them partly through imitation, but also through drama, and mythology, and literature, and art, and all of

00:18:11.640 that, to represent what we're like, so that we can understand what we're like, and that process of

00:18:16.880 understanding is what I see unfolding, at least in part, in the biblical stories, and it's halting,

00:18:22.660 and partial, and awkward, and contradictory, and all of that, which is one of the things

00:18:27.660 that makes the book so complex, but I see in it the struggle of humanity to rise above its

00:18:34.980 animal forebears, say, and to become conscious of what it means to be human, and that's a very

00:18:40.220 difficult thing, because we don't know who we are, or what we are, or where we came from,

00:18:44.220 or any of those things, and, you know, the light life is an unbroken chain, going back three

00:18:49.160 and a half billion years, it's an absolutely unbelievable thing, every single one of your

00:18:53.560 ancestors reproduced successfully for three and a half billion years, it's absolutely

00:18:58.640 unbelievable, and we rose out of the dirt and the muck, and here we are, conscious, but

00:19:04.360 not knowing, and we're trying to figure out who we are, and a story that we've been telling,

00:19:09.200 or a set of stories that we've been telling for 3,000 years seems to me to have something

00:19:13.840 to offer, and so, when I look at the stories in the Bible, I would say, in some sense, with

00:19:21.040 a beginner's mind, it's a mystery, this book, how the hell it was made, why it was made,

00:19:25.840 why we preserved it, how it happened to motivate an entire culture for 2,000 years, and to transform

00:19:32.300 the world, like, what's going on?

00:19:34.320 How did that happen?

00:19:35.600 It's by no means obvious, and one of the things that bothers me about casual critics

00:19:40.240 of religion is that they don't take the phenomena seriously, and it's a serious phenomena, I

00:19:45.160 mean, not least because people have the capacity for religious experience, and no one knows

00:19:50.240 why that is, and I mean, you can induce it reliably in all sorts of different ways, you

00:19:54.480 can do it with brain stimulation, you can certainly do it with drugs, especially the psychedelic variety,

00:19:59.980 they produce intimations of the divine extraordinarily regularly, people have been using drugs like

00:20:06.300 that for God only knows how long, 50,000 years, maybe more than that, to produce some sort

00:20:12.260 of intimate union with the divine, it's like, we don't understand any of that when we discovered

00:20:17.380 the psychedelics in the late 60s, it shocked everybody so badly that they were instantly

00:20:21.840 made illegal and abandoned, in terms of research, for like 50 years, and it's no wonder, because

00:20:27.300 who the hell expected that?

00:20:29.300 Nobody.

00:20:30.300 Now, Jung was a student of Nietzsche's, you see, and he was also, I would say, a very astute

00:20:40.180 critic of Nietzsche, he was educated by Freud, and Freud, I suppose, in some sense, started

00:20:48.000 to collate the information that we had pertaining to the notion that people lived inside a dream,

00:20:54.060 you know, it was Freud who really popularized the idea of the unconscious mind, and we take

00:20:59.420 this for granted to such a degree today that we don't understand how revolutionary the

00:21:04.020 idea was, like with what's happened with Freud is that we've taken all the marrow out

00:21:08.200 of his bones, so to speak, and left the husk behind, and, you know, now when we think about

00:21:13.360 Freud, we just think about the husk, because that's everything that's been discarded, but

00:21:17.300 so much of what he discovered is part of our popular conception now, including the idea

00:21:21.540 that your perceptions and your actions and your thoughts are all, what would you say,

00:21:27.400 informed and shaped by unconscious motivations that are not part of your voluntary control,

00:21:33.540 and that's a very, very strange thing.

00:21:35.540 It's one of the most unsettling things about the psychoanalytic theories, because the psychoanalytic

00:21:40.780 theories are something like, you're a loose collection of living sub-personalities, each with its own set of motivations,

00:21:48.040 and perceptions, and emotions, and rationales, all of that. And you have limited control over that,

00:21:53.900 so you're like a plurality of internal personalities that's loosely linked into a unity. You know that, because

00:22:01.900 you can't control yourself very well, which is one of Jung's objections to Nietzsche's idea that we could create our own values.

00:22:08.900 See, Jung didn't believe that, especially not after interacting with Freud, because he saw that human beings were affected by

00:22:15.760 things that were deeply, deeply affected by things that were beyond their conscious control. And no one really knows how to conceptualize those things.

00:22:22.760 You know, the cognitive psychologists think about them, in some sense, as computational machines. And the ancient people, I think, thought of them as gods,

00:22:30.640 although it's more complex than that. Like, rage would be a god. Mars, the god of rage, that's the thing that possesses you when you're angry.

00:22:38.500 You know, it has a viewpoint, and it says what it wants to say, and that might have very little to do with what you want to say when you're being sensible.

00:22:46.500 And it doesn't just inhabit you, it inhabits everyone, and it lives forever, and it even inhabits animals.

00:22:52.500 So it's this transcendent psychological entity that inhabits the body politic, like a thought inhabits the brain.

00:23:02.360 That's one way of thinking about it. It's a very strange way of thinking, but it certainly has its merits.

00:23:08.360 And so, and those things, well, in some sense, those are deities, although it's not that simple.

00:23:13.360 And so Jung, Jung was, got very interested in dreams, and started to understand the relationship between dreams and myths,

00:23:21.600 because he would see, in his clients' dreams, echoes of stories that he knew, because it was deeply read in mythology.

00:23:28.360 And then he started to believe that the dream was the birthplace of the myth, and that there was a continual interaction between the two processes,

00:23:36.660 the dream and the story, and storytelling.

00:23:38.840 And, well, you know, you tend to tell your dreams as stories when you remember them, and some people remember dreams all the time.

00:23:45.340 Like, two or three a night, I've had clients like that, and they often have archetypal dreams that have very clear mythological structures.

00:23:52.080 I think that's more the case with people who are creative, by the way, especially if they're a bit unstable at the time.

00:23:57.940 Because the dream tends to occupy the space of uncertainty, and to concentrate on fleshing out the unknown reality before you get a real grip on it.

00:24:07.940 And so, it's like the dream is the birthplace of thinking.

00:24:10.940 That's a good way of thinking about it.

00:24:12.440 And so, because it's the birthplace of thinking, it's not that clear.

00:24:15.440 It's doing its best to formulate something.

00:24:18.440 That was Jung's notion, as opposed to Freud, who believed that there were sensors, internal sensors, that were hiding the dream's true message.

00:24:26.440 That's not what Jung believed.

00:24:27.440 He believed the dream was doing its best to express a reality that was still outside of fully articulated conscious comprehension.

00:24:36.940 Because you think, look, a thought appears in your head, right?

00:24:40.940 That's obvious.

00:24:41.940 Bang!

00:24:42.940 It's nothing you ever ask about.

00:24:43.940 But what the hell does that mean?

00:24:45.940 A thought appears in your head.

00:24:47.440 What kind of ridiculous explanation is that?

00:24:49.940 You know, it just doesn't help with anything.

00:24:53.940 Where does it come from?

00:24:55.440 Well, nowhere.

00:24:56.440 It just appears in my head.

00:24:58.440 Okay, well, that's not a very sophisticated explanation, as it turns out, you know?

00:25:02.440 And so, you might think that those thoughts that you think, well, where do they come from?

00:25:07.440 Well, they're often someone else's thoughts, right?

00:25:09.440 Someone long dead.

00:25:10.440 That might be part of it.

00:25:11.440 Just like the words you use to think are utterances of people who've been long dead.

00:25:16.940 And so, you're informed by the spirit of your ancestors.

00:25:20.440 That's one way of looking at it.

00:25:21.940 And your motivations speak to you.

00:25:23.940 And your emotions speak to you.

00:25:24.940 And your body speaks to you.

00:25:26.940 And it does all that, at least in part, through the dream.

00:25:30.940 And the dream is the birthplace of the fully articulated idea.

00:25:34.940 They don't just come from nowhere fully fledged, right?

00:25:38.940 They have a developmental origin, and God only knows how lengthy that origin is.

00:25:44.440 Even to say something like, I am conscious.

00:25:47.440 You know, that's taken people...

00:25:49.440 Chimpanzees don't say that.

00:25:51.440 You know, it's been seven million years since we broke from chimpanzees.

00:25:55.940 Something like that from the common ancestor.

00:25:57.940 You know, they have no articulated knowledge at all.

00:26:00.440 They have very little self-representation, in some sense.

00:26:03.440 And very little self-consciousness.

00:26:05.440 And that's not the case with us at all.

00:26:07.440 And we had to painstakingly figure all of this out during that, you know, seven million year voyage.

00:26:12.940 And I think some of that's represented and captured, in some sense, in these ancient stories.

00:26:20.940 Which I believe were part of, especially the oldest stories in Genesis.

00:26:25.440 Which is the stories we're going to start with.

00:26:27.940 That they were...

00:26:29.940 That some of the archaic nature of the human being is encapsulated in those stories.

00:26:34.940 And it's very, very instructive, as far as I can tell.

00:26:37.940 I can give you just a quick example.

00:26:39.940 You know, there's an idea of sacrifice in the Old Testament.

00:26:43.940 And it's pretty barbaric, you know.

00:26:46.440 I mean, the story of Abraham and Isaac is a good example of that.

00:26:49.440 Because Abraham is called on to actually sacrifice his own son.

00:26:52.440 Which doesn't really seem like something that a reasonable God would ask you to do, right?

00:26:56.440 That God in the Old Testament is frequently cruel and arbitrary and demanding and paradoxical.

00:27:02.440 And which is one of the things that really gives the book life.

00:27:05.440 Because it wasn't edited by a committee.

00:27:07.940 You know, a committee that was concerned with not offending anyone, that's for sure.

00:27:13.440 So Jung believed that the dream was the birthplace of thought.

00:27:31.440 And I've been extending that idea because one of the things I wondered about deeply was,

00:27:36.440 you know, you have a dream and then someone interprets it.

00:27:39.440 And you can argue about whether or not an interpretation is valid.

00:27:42.440 Just like you can argue about whether your interpretation of a novel or movie is valid, right?

00:27:47.440 It's a very difficult thing to determine with any degree of accuracy.

00:27:51.440 It counts in part for the postmodern critique.

00:27:54.440 But my observation has been that people will present a dream.

00:27:59.440 And sometimes we can extract out real useful information from it that the person didn't appear to know.

00:28:05.440 You know, and they get a flash of insight.

00:28:07.440 And to me that's a marker that we've stumbled on something that unites part of that person that wasn't united before.

00:28:13.440 It pulls things together.

00:28:15.440 Which is often what a good story will do or sometimes a good theory.

00:28:18.440 You know, things snap together for you and there's a little light goes on.

00:28:22.440 And that's one of the markers that I've used for accuracy in dreams.

00:28:26.440 And I know in my own family, when I was first married, you know, I'd have fights with my wife, arguments about this and that.

00:28:35.440 And I'm fairly hot-headed and so I'd get all puffed up and, you know, agitated about whatever we were arguing about.

00:28:44.440 And she'd go to sleep, which was really annoying, you know, so annoying.

00:28:49.440 Because I couldn't sleep, right?

00:28:51.440 I was, like, chewing off my fingernails and she'd be, like, sleeping peacefully beside me.

00:28:55.440 It's, like, maddening.

00:28:57.440 So, but often she'd have a dream, you know.

00:28:59.440 And then the next morning she'd discuss it with me and then we could unravel what was at the bottom of our argument.

00:29:04.440 And that was unbelievably useful, even though it was extraordinarily aggravating.

00:29:08.440 So, you know, I was convinced by Jung, it looked to me like his ideas about the relationship between dreams and mythology and drama and literature.

00:29:17.440 It made sense to me and the relationship between that and art.

00:29:21.440 I know this native carver, he's a Kwakwakawak guy, he's carved a bunch of wooden sculptures, totem poles and masks that I have in my house.

00:29:31.440 And he's a very interesting person, not literate, not particularly literate, and really still steeped in this ancient 13,000-year-old tradition.

00:29:39.440 He's an original language speaker.

00:29:41.440 And the fact that he isn't literate has sort of left him with the mind of someone who's pre-literate.

00:29:47.440 And pre-literate people aren't stupid, they're just not literate, so their brains are organized differently in many ways.

00:29:53.440 And I've asked him about his intuition for his carvings, and he's told me that he dreams, like, you've seen the Haida masks, you know what they look like.

00:30:03.440 Well, his people are closely related to the Haida, so it's the same kind of style.

00:30:09.440 And he said, he dreams in those animals, and can remember his dreams.

00:30:14.440 And he also talks to his grandparents who taught him how to carve in his dreams.

00:30:19.440 Quite often, if he runs into a problem with carving, his grandparents will come and he'll talk to them.

00:30:23.440 But he sees the creatures that he's going to carve living in an animated sense in his imagination.

00:30:30.440 And, I mean, it's not that difficult.

00:30:32.440 First of all, I have no reason to disbelieve him.

00:30:34.440 He's a very, very straightforward person.

00:30:36.440 And he doesn't have the motivation or the guile, I would say, in some sense, to invent a story like that.

00:30:42.440 There's just no reason he would possibly do it.

00:30:44.440 I don't think he's told that many people about it.

00:30:46.440 He thinks it's kind of crazy, you know.

00:30:48.440 He said when he was a kid, he thought he was insane because he'd had those dreams all the time about these creatures and so forth.

00:30:55.440 And so, it wasn't something he was trumpeting.

00:30:58.440 But, I found it fascinating because I can see in him part of the manifestation of this unbroken tradition.

00:31:05.440 We have no idea how traditions like that are really passed along for thousands and thousands of years, right?

00:31:10.440 Part of it's oral and memory.

00:31:12.440 Part of it's acted out and dramatized.

00:31:14.440 And then part of it's going to be imaginative.

00:31:16.440 And people who aren't literate, they store information quite differently than we do.

00:31:20.440 We don't remember anything.

00:31:21.440 It's all written down in books, right?

00:31:23.440 But if you're from an oral culture, especially if you're trained in that way, you have all of that information at hand.

00:31:28.440 Both so you can speak it, you can tell the stories, and you really know them.

00:31:32.440 And, you know, modern people don't really know what that's like anymore.

00:31:35.440 I doubt if there's more than maybe two of you in the audience that could spout from memory like a thirty-line poem.

00:31:41.440 You know, and poetry was written so that people could do that.

00:31:44.440 That's why we have that form, is so that people could remember it and have it with them.

00:31:49.440 And we don't do any of that anymore.

00:31:51.440 Anyways, back to Jung.

00:31:54.440 Jung was a great believer in the dream.

00:31:57.440 And I noted that dreams will tell you things that you don't know.

00:32:01.440 And then I thought, well, how the hell can that be?

00:32:03.440 How in the world can something you think up tell you something you don't know?

00:32:08.440 How does that make any sense?

00:32:10.440 First of all, why don't you understand it?

00:32:13.440 Why does it have to come forth in the form of the dream?

00:32:16.440 It's like there's something going on inside you that you don't control, right?

00:32:20.440 The dream happens to you just like life happens to you.

00:32:23.440 I mean, there is the odd lucid dreamer who can, you know, apply a certain amount of conscious control.

00:32:29.440 But most of the time, you're laying there asleep and this crazy complicated world manifests itself inside you.

00:32:37.440 And you don't know how.

00:32:38.440 You can't do it when you're awake.

00:32:40.440 And you don't know what it means.

00:32:42.440 It's like, what the hell is going on?

00:32:44.440 And that's one of the things that's so damn frightening about the psychoanalysts.

00:32:47.440 Because, and you get this both from Freud and Jung, you really start to understand that there are things inside you that are happening that control you instead of the other way around.

00:32:58.440 You know, there's a bit of reciprocal control, but there's manifestations of spirits, so to speak, inside you that determine the manner in which you walk through life.

00:33:08.440 And you don't control it.

00:33:10.440 And what does?

00:33:11.440 Is it random?

00:33:12.440 You know, there are people who have claimed that dreams are merely the consequence of random neuronal firing, which is a theory I think is absolutely absurd because there's nothing random about dreams.

00:33:23.440 You know, they're very, very structured and very, very complex.

00:33:27.440 And they're not like snow on a television screen or static on a radio.

00:33:32.440 Like, those things are complicated.

00:33:34.440 And then also I've seen so often that people have very coherent dreams that have a perfect narrative structure.

00:33:40.440 You know, they're fully developed in some sense.

00:33:42.440 And so that just doesn't, that theory just doesn't go anywhere with me.

00:33:45.440 I just can't see that as useful at all.

00:33:48.440 And so I'm more likely to take the phenomena seriously and say, well, there's something to dreams.

00:33:55.440 Well, you dream of the future and then you try to make it into a reality.

00:33:58.440 That seems to be an important thing.

00:34:00.440 You know, or maybe you dream up a nightmare and try to make that into a reality because people do that too if they're hell-bent on revenge, for example, and full of hatred and resentment.

00:34:08.440 I mean, that manifests itself in terrible fantasies.

00:34:12.440 You know, those are dreams and then people go act them out.

00:34:15.440 These things are powerful.

00:34:16.440 You know, and whole nations can get caught up in collective dreams.

00:34:19.440 That's what happened to the Nazis.

00:34:21.440 That's what happened to Nazi Germany in the 1930s.

00:34:24.440 It was absolutely remarkable, amazing, horrific, destructive spectacle.

00:34:29.440 And the same thing happened in the Soviet Union.

00:34:31.440 The same thing happened in China.

00:34:32.440 It's like, we have to take these things seriously, you know, and try to understand what's going on.

00:34:37.440 So, Jung believed that the dream could contain more information than was yet articulated.

00:34:45.440 You think, artists do the same thing, you know.

00:34:48.440 Like, people go to museums and they look at paintings, Renaissance paintings or modern paintings.

00:34:53.440 And they don't exactly know why they're there.

00:34:55.440 You know, I was in this room in New York.

00:34:59.440 I don't remember which museum.

00:35:01.440 But it was a room full of Renaissance art.

00:35:03.440 You know, great painters.

00:35:04.440 The greatest painters.

00:35:05.440 And thought maybe that room was worth a billion dollars or something outrageous.

00:35:09.440 Because there was like 20 paintings in there, you know.

00:35:11.440 So, priceless.

00:35:12.440 And the first thing is, well, why are those paintings worth so much?

00:35:16.440 And why is there a museum in the biggest city in the world devoted to them?

00:35:19.440 And why do people from all over the world come and look at them?

00:35:22.440 What the hell are those people doing?

00:35:24.440 One of them was of the Assumption of Mary.

00:35:26.440 You know, beautifully painted.

00:35:28.440 Absolutely glowing work of art.

00:35:30.440 And there's like 20 people standing in front of it, looking at it.

00:35:33.440 And you think, what are those people up to?

00:35:35.440 You know, they don't know.

00:35:36.440 Why did they make a pilgrimage to New York to come and look at that painting?

00:35:40.440 It's not like they know.

00:35:41.440 Why is it worth so much?

00:35:42.440 I mean, I know there's a status element to it, too.

00:35:44.440 But that begs the question.

00:35:46.440 Why did those items become such high-status items?

00:35:49.440 What is it about them that's so absolutely remarkable?

00:35:52.440 Well, we're strange creatures.

00:35:55.440 So, I was trying to figure out in part, well, where did the information

00:35:59.440 that's in the dream come from?

00:36:01.440 Because it has to come from somewhere.

00:36:03.440 And you could think about it as a revelation.

00:36:05.440 You know?

00:36:06.440 Because it's like it springs out of the void and it's new knowledge.

00:36:09.440 And it's a revelation.

00:36:10.440 You didn't produce it.

00:36:11.440 It just appears.

00:36:13.440 But that's, see, one of the things I want to do with this series.

00:36:16.440 It's like I'm scientifically minded and I'm quite a rational person.

00:36:20.440 And I like to have an explanation for things that's rational and empirical

00:36:24.440 before I look for any other kind of explanation.

00:36:26.440 And I don't want to say that everything that's associated with divinity

00:36:30.440 can be reduced in some manner to biology or to an evolutionary history

00:36:34.440 or anything like that.

00:36:35.440 But insofar as it's possible to do that reduction, I'm going to do that.

00:36:40.440 And I'm going to leave the other phenomena floating in the air

00:36:43.440 because they can't be pinned down.

00:36:45.440 And in that category, I would put the category of mystical or religious experience,

00:36:49.440 which we don't understand at all.

00:36:53.440 So, artists observe one another.

00:36:57.440 They observe people and they represent what they see.

00:37:00.440 And they transmit the message of what they see to us and they teach us to see.

00:37:03.440 And we don't necessarily know what it is that we're learning from them.

00:37:07.440 But we're learning something, or at least we're acting like we're learning something.

00:37:10.440 We go to movies, we watch stories, we immerse ourselves in fiction constantly.

00:37:16.440 That's an artistic production.

00:37:18.440 And for many people, the world of the arts is a living world.

00:37:21.440 And that's particularly true if you're a creative person.

00:37:24.440 And it's the creative, artistic people that do move the knowledge of humanity forward.

00:37:29.440 And they do that with their artistic productions first.

00:37:32.440 They're on the edge.

00:37:33.440 And the dancers do that.

00:37:34.440 And the poets do that.

00:37:35.440 And the visual artists do that.

00:37:37.440 And the musicians do that.

00:37:38.440 And we're not sure what they're doing.

00:37:40.440 Like, we're not sure what musicians are doing.

00:37:42.440 What the hell are they doing?

00:37:43.440 Why do you like music?

00:37:44.440 You know, it gives you deep intimation of the significance of things.

00:37:48.440 And no one questions it.

00:37:50.440 You go to a concert, you're thrilled.

00:37:51.440 It's a quasi-religious experience.

00:37:53.440 Particularly if the people really get themselves together and get the crowd moving.

00:37:58.440 You know, there's something incredibly intense about it.

00:38:00.440 But it makes no sense whatsoever.

00:38:02.440 It's not an easy thing to understand.

00:38:05.440 Music is deeply patterned.

00:38:07.440 And patterned in layers.

00:38:09.440 And I think that has something to do with it.

00:38:11.440 Because reality is patterned and deeply patterned in layers.

00:38:14.440 And so I think music is representing reality in some fundamental way.

00:38:19.440 And that we get into the sway of that.

00:38:21.440 And sort of participate in being.

00:38:23.440 And that's part of what makes it such an uplifting experience.

00:38:26.440 But we don't really know that's what we're doing.

00:38:29.440 We just go do it.

00:38:30.440 And it's nourishing for people, right?

00:38:33.440 I mean, young people in particular.

00:38:36.440 Lots of them live for music.

00:38:38.440 It's where they derive all their meaning.

00:38:39.440 Their cultural identity.

00:38:41.440 Everything that's nourishing comes from their affiliation with their music.

00:38:44.440 And is part of their cultural identity.

00:38:46.440 So that's an amazing thing.

00:38:48.440 The question still remains.

00:38:52.440 Where does the information in dreams come from?

00:38:54.440 And I think where it comes from is that we watch the patterns that everyone acts out.

00:39:04.440 We've watched that forever.

00:39:06.440 And we've got some representations of those patterns.

00:39:09.440 That's part of our cultural history.

00:39:10.440 That's what's embedded in stories.

00:39:12.440 In fictional accounts of the story between good and evil.

00:39:15.440 The bad guy and the good guy.

00:39:16.440 And the romance.

00:39:17.440 You know, these are canonical patterns of being for people.

00:39:20.440 And they deeply affect us because they represent what it is that we will act out in the world.

00:39:25.440 And then we flesh that out with the individual information we have about ourselves and other people.

00:39:30.440 And so it's like there's waves of behavioral patterns that manifest themselves in the crowd across time.

00:39:40.440 The great dramas are played on the crowd across time.

00:39:43.440 And the artists watch that.

00:39:45.440 And they get intimations of what that is.

00:39:47.440 And they write it down and they tell us.

00:39:49.440 And then we're a little clearer about what we're up to.

00:39:51.440 You know, like a great dramatist like Shakespeare, let's say.

00:39:54.440 We know that what he wrote is fiction.

00:39:56.440 And then we say, well, fiction isn't true.

00:39:58.440 But then you think, well, wait a minute.

00:40:00.440 Maybe it's true like numbers are true.

00:40:03.440 You know, numbers are an abstraction from the underlying reality.

00:40:07.440 But no one in their right mind would really think numbers aren't true.

00:40:11.440 You could even make a case that the numbers are more real than the things that they represent.

00:40:15.440 Right?

00:40:16.440 Because the abstraction is so insanely powerful.

00:40:18.440 Once you have mathematics, you're just deadly.

00:40:21.440 You can move the world with mathematics.

00:40:23.440 And so it's not obvious that the abstraction is less real than the more concrete reality.

00:40:30.440 And you take a work of fiction like Hamlet.

00:40:33.440 And you think, well, is that, it's not true because it's fiction.

00:40:37.440 But then you think, wait a minute.

00:40:38.440 What kind of explanation is that?

00:40:40.440 Like maybe it's more true than non-fiction.

00:40:42.440 Because it takes what, the story that needs to be told about you.

00:40:46.440 And the story that needs to be told about you.

00:40:47.440 And you, and you, and you.

00:40:49.440 And abstracts that out and says, look.

00:40:51.440 Here's something that's a key part of the human experience as such.

00:40:55.440 Right?

00:40:56.440 So it's an abstraction from this underlying noisy substrate.

00:41:01.440 And people are affected by it because they see that the thing that's represented is part of the pattern of their being.

00:41:08.440 That's the right way to think about it.

00:41:10.440 And then, with these old stories, these ancient stories, it seems to me like that process has been occurring for thousands of years.

00:41:16.440 It's like, we watched ourselves and we extracted out some stories.

00:41:20.440 We imitated each other and we represented that in drama.

00:41:23.440 And then we distilled the drama.

00:41:25.440 And we got a representation of the distillation.

00:41:28.440 And then we did it again.

00:41:29.440 And at the end of that process, that took God only knows how long.

00:41:33.440 Like, I think some of these stories, they've traced fairy tales back 10,000 years.

00:41:39.440 Some fairy tales in relatively unchanged form.

00:41:42.440 And it certainly seems to me that the archeological evidence, for example, suggests that the really old stories that the Bible begins with are at least that old and likely embedded in a prehistory that's far older than that.

00:41:56.440 And you might think, well, how can you be so sure?

00:41:59.440 And the answer to that in part is that cultures that don't change, like the ancient cultures, right?

00:42:05.440 They didn't change as fast as this.

00:42:06.440 They stay the same.

00:42:08.440 That's the answer.

00:42:09.440 So they keep their information moving generation to generation.

00:42:13.440 That's how they stay the same.

00:42:15.440 And so we know, again, in the archeological record, there are records of rituals that have remained relatively unbroken for up to 20,000 years.

00:42:23.440 It was discovered in caves in Japan that were set up for a particular kind of bear worship that was also characteristic of Western Europe.

00:42:31.440 So these things can last for very long periods of time.

00:42:35.440 We're watching each other act in the world.

00:42:39.440 And then the question is, well, how long have we been watching each other?

00:42:43.440 And the answer to that in some sense is, well, as long as there's been creatures with nervous systems.

00:42:49.440 And that's a long time, you know, that's some hundreds of millions of years, perhaps longer than that.

00:42:54.440 We've been watching each other, trying to figure out what we're up to across that entire span of time.

00:42:59.440 And some of that knowledge is built right into our bodies, which is why we can dance with each other, for example, right?

00:43:04.440 Because understanding isn't just something that you have as an abstraction.

00:43:10.440 It's something that you act out, you know?

00:43:12.440 That's what children are doing when they're learning to rough and tumble plays.

00:43:15.440 They're learning to integrate their body with the body of someone else in a harmonious way, learning to cooperate and compete.

00:43:22.440 And that's all instantiated right into their body.

00:43:25.440 It's not abstract knowledge.

00:43:26.440 They don't know that they're doing that.

00:43:28.440 They're just doing it.

00:43:29.440 And so we can even use our body as a representational platform.

00:43:33.440 So we've been studying each other for a long time, abstracting out what is it that we're up to.

00:43:39.440 And that's, what is it we're up to?

00:43:42.440 What should we be up to?

00:43:43.440 That's even a more fundamental question.

00:43:45.440 If you're going to live in the world and you're going to do it properly, what does properly mean?

00:43:50.440 And how is it that you might go about that?

00:43:52.440 Well, it's the right question, right?

00:43:55.440 It's what everyone wants to know.

00:43:56.440 How do you live in the world?

00:43:57.440 Not what is the world made of.

00:43:59.440 It's not the same question.

00:44:00.440 How do you live in the world?

00:44:02.440 It's the eternal question of human beings.

00:44:04.440 And I guess we're the only species that has ever really asked that question.

00:44:08.440 Because all the other animals, they just go and do whatever they do.

00:44:11.440 Not us.

00:44:12.440 It's a question for us.

00:44:14.440 We've had to, we have to become aware of it.

00:44:16.440 We have to be able to speak it.

00:44:18.440 God only knows why.

00:44:19.440 But that seems to be the situation.

00:44:22.440 So, we act.

00:44:26.440 That acting is shaped by the world.

00:44:28.440 That acting is shaped by society into something that we don't understand.

00:44:31.440 But that we can model.

00:44:33.440 That we can model.

00:44:34.440 We model it in our stories.

00:44:35.440 We model it with our bodies.

00:44:37.440 And that's where the dream gets its information.

00:44:40.440 The dream is part of the process that's watching everything.

00:44:43.440 And then trying to formulate it.

00:44:45.440 And trying to say, well, trying to get the signal out from the noise.

00:44:48.440 And to portray it in dramatic form.

00:44:50.440 Because a dream is a little drama.

00:44:51.440 And then you get the chance to talk about what that dream is.

00:44:55.440 And then you have it, you have something like articulated knowledge at that point.

00:45:00.440 And so the Bible, I would say, is, is, it's sort of, it exists in that space that's half into the dream and half into articulated knowledge.

00:45:09.440 It's something like that.

00:45:11.440 And going into it to find out what the stories are about.

00:45:14.440 Can, what can, what, it can aid our self-understanding.

00:45:19.440 And then the other issue is, is that if Nietzsche was correct.

00:45:23.440 And if Dostoevsky, or Jung was correct.

00:45:26.440 And Dostoevsky as well.

00:45:28.440 Without the cornerstone that that understanding provides, we're lost.

00:45:34.440 And that's not good, because then we're susceptible to psychic pathology.

00:45:39.440 That's psychological pathology.

00:45:41.440 You know, the people who are adamant anti-religious thinkers seem to believe that if we abandoned our immersement in the underlying dream, that we'd all instantly become rationalists like Descartes or Bacon.

00:45:56.440 You know, intelligent, clear-thinking, rational, scientific people.

00:46:01.440 I don't believe that for a moment, because I don't think there's any evidence for it.

00:46:04.440 I think we would become so irrational so rapidly that the weirdest mysteries of Catholicism would seem positively rational by contrast.

00:46:13.440 And I think that's already happening.

00:46:15.440 So.

00:46:16.440 Okay.

00:46:17.440 So this is the idea, essentially.

00:46:30.440 You know, that you have the unknown world.

00:46:32.440 That's just what you don't know at all.

00:46:35.440 That's the outside.

00:46:36.440 That's the ocean that surrounds the island that you inhabit.

00:46:39.440 Something like that.

00:46:40.440 It's chaos itself.

00:46:41.440 And then, you act in that world.

00:46:43.440 And you act in ways you don't understand.

00:46:45.440 There's more to your actions than you can understand.

00:46:48.440 One of the things Jung said, I loved this when I first understood it.

00:46:51.440 He said, everybody acts out a myth, but very few people know what their myth is.

00:46:56.440 And you should know what your myth is, because it might be a tragedy.

00:46:59.440 And maybe you don't want it to be.

00:47:01.440 And that's really worth thinking about, because you have a pattern of behavior that characterizes you.

00:47:07.440 You know?

00:47:08.440 And God only knows where you got it.

00:47:10.440 Partly it's biological.

00:47:11.440 Partly it's from your parents.

00:47:13.440 It's your unconscious assumptions.

00:47:15.440 It's the way the philosophy of your society has shaped you.

00:47:17.440 And it's aiming you somewhere.

00:47:21.440 Well, is it aiming you somewhere you want to go?

00:47:24.440 That's a good question.

00:47:25.440 That's part of self-realization, you know?

00:47:28.440 We know we don't understand our actions.

00:47:30.440 That's almost every argument you have with someone is about that.

00:47:34.440 It's like, why did you do that?

00:47:36.440 You come up with some half-baked reasons why you did it.

00:47:38.440 You're flailing around in the darkness.

00:47:40.440 You know?

00:47:41.440 You try to give an account for yourself, but you can only do it partially.

00:47:44.440 It's very, very difficult.

00:47:45.440 Because you're a complicated animal with the beginnings of an articulated mind.

00:47:52.440 Something like that.

00:47:53.440 And you're just way more than you can handle.

00:47:55.440 And all right, so you act things out, right?

00:48:00.440 You act things out.

00:48:02.440 And that's a kind of competence.

00:48:04.440 And then you imagine what you act out.

00:48:06.440 And you imagine what everyone else acts out.

00:48:08.440 And so there's a tremendous amount of information in your action.

00:48:12.440 And then that information is translated up into the dream and into art, into mythology and literature.

00:48:18.440 And there's a tremendous amount of information in that.

00:48:21.440 And then some of that is translated into articulated thought.

00:48:25.440 And I'll give you a quick example of something like that.

00:48:27.440 I think this is partly what happens in Exodus.

00:48:30.440 When Moses comes up with the law.

00:48:32.440 You know, he's wandering around with the Israelites forever in the desert.

00:48:35.440 And they're, like, going left and going right and worshipping idols.

00:48:38.440 And, like, having a hell of a time.

00:48:40.440 And, you know, getting rebellious.

00:48:42.440 And Moses goes up in the mountain.

00:48:44.440 And he has this tremendous revelation sort of in the sight of God.

00:48:47.440 And it illuminates him.

00:48:48.440 And he comes down with the law.

00:48:50.440 You think, well, you know, Moses acted as a judge.

00:48:53.440 I know this is a mythological story.

00:48:55.440 Moses acted as a judge in the desert.

00:48:57.440 And he was continually mediating between people who were having problems.

00:49:00.440 Constantly trying to keep peace.

00:49:02.440 And so what are you doing when you're trying to keep peace?

00:49:05.440 Is you're trying to understand what peace is.

00:49:07.440 Right?

00:49:08.440 You have to apply the principles.

00:49:09.440 But what are the principles?

00:49:11.440 Well, you don't know.

00:49:12.440 The principles are whatever satisfies people enough to make peace.

00:49:16.440 And maybe you do that 10,000 times.

00:49:18.440 And then you get some sense of, oh, here's the principles that bring peace.

00:49:21.440 And then one day it blasts into your consciousness like a revelation.

00:49:25.440 Here's the rules that we're already acting out.

00:49:28.440 Well, that's the Ten Commandments.

00:49:30.440 They're there to begin with.

00:49:31.440 And Moses comes forward and says, look, this is already basically what we're doing.

00:49:36.440 But now it's codified.

00:49:37.440 Right?

00:49:38.440 And, like, that's all a historical process that's condensed into a single story.

00:49:43.440 But obviously that happened because we have written law.

00:49:46.440 Right?

00:49:47.440 And that emerged in good legal systems.

00:49:49.440 That emerges from the bottom up.

00:49:51.440 That's English common law is exactly like that.

00:49:53.440 Right?

00:49:54.440 It's single decisions that are predicated on principles that are then articulated and made into the body of law.

00:50:01.440 And the body of law is something you act out.

00:50:04.440 That's why it's a body of law.

00:50:06.440 If you're a good citizen, you act out the body of law.

00:50:09.440 And the body of law has principles.

00:50:11.440 Okay, so the question is, there's principles that guide our behavior.

00:50:16.440 What are those principles?

00:50:17.440 Well, I think if you want the initial answer of what the archaic Israelites meant by God, that's something like what they meant.

00:50:27.440 Now, it's not a good enough explanation, but, look, imagine that you're a chimpanzee and you have a powerful, dominant figure at the pinnacle of your society.

00:50:41.440 That represents power.

00:50:43.440 Now, more than that, because it's not sheer physical prowess that keeps a chimp at the top of the hierarchy.

00:50:48.440 It's much more complicated than that.

00:50:50.440 But you could say, well, there's a principle that the dominant person manifests.

00:50:56.440 And then you might say, well, that principle shines forth even more brightly if you know ten people who are dominant, powerful.

00:51:04.440 Then you can extract out what dominance means from that.

00:51:08.440 You can extract out what power means from that.

00:51:10.440 And then you can divorce the concept from the people.

00:51:14.440 And we had to do that at some point, because we can say power in a human context.

00:51:19.440 And we can imagine what that means, but it's divorced from any specific manifestation of power.

00:51:24.440 Well, how the hell did we do that?

00:51:26.440 Like, that's so complicated.

00:51:28.440 If you're a chimp, the power is in another chimp.

00:51:32.440 It's not some damn abstraction.

00:51:34.440 Well, so the question is, think about it.

00:51:37.440 We're in these hierarchies, many of them across centuries.

00:51:40.440 We're trying to figure out what the guiding principle is.

00:51:43.440 We're trying to extract out the core of the guiding principle.

00:51:47.440 And we turn that into a representation of a pattern of being.

00:51:51.440 Well, it's something like that.

00:51:53.440 That's God.

00:51:54.440 It's an abstracted ideal.

00:51:56.440 And it's put in personified form.

00:52:00.440 It manifests itself in personified form.

00:52:02.440 But that's okay, because what we're trying to get at is, in some sense, the essence of what it means to be a properly functioning, properly social, and properly competent individual.

00:52:15.440 We're trying to figure out what that means.

00:52:17.440 You need an embodiment.

00:52:19.440 You need an ideal that's abstracted, that you could act out, that would enable you to understand what that means.

00:52:26.440 And that's what we've been driving at.

00:52:28.440 So that's the first hypothesis, in some sense.

00:52:31.440 I'm going to go over some of the attributes of this abstracted ideal that we've formalized as God.

00:52:37.440 But that's the first sort of hypothesis, is that a philosophical or moral ideal manifests itself first as a concrete pattern of behavior that's characteristic of a single individual.

00:52:49.440 And then it's a set of individuals.

00:52:51.440 And then it's an abstraction from that set.

00:52:54.440 And then you have the abstraction.

00:52:56.440 It's so important.

00:52:57.440 So here's a political implication, for example.

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00:55:47.440 One of the debates, we might say, between early Christianity and the late Roman Empire was whether or not an emperor could be God, literally, right?

00:56:06.940 To be deified, to be put in a temple.

00:56:10.440 And you can see why that might happen, because that's someone at the pinnacle of a very steep hierarchy who has a tremendous amount of power and influence.

00:56:18.440 But the Christian response to that was, never confuse the specific sovereign with the principle of sovereignty itself.

00:56:29.440 It's brilliant.

00:56:30.440 You see how difficult it is to come up with an idea like that, so that even the person who has the power is actually subordinate to something else.

00:56:37.440 Subordinate to, let's call it a divine principle, for lack of a better word.

00:56:42.440 So that even the king himself is subordinate to the principle.

00:56:46.440 And we still believe that, because we believe that our president, our prime minister, is subordinate to the damn law.

00:56:52.440 Whatever the body of law, right?

00:56:54.440 There's a principle inside that, that even the leader is subordinate to.

00:56:58.440 And without that, you could argue you can't even have a civilized society, because your leader immediately turns into something that's transcendent and all-powerful.

00:57:07.440 And I mean, that's certainly what happened in the Soviet Union, and what happened in Maoist China, and what happened in Nazi Germany.

00:57:13.440 Because there was nothing for the powerful to subordinate themselves to.

00:57:17.440 You're supposed to be subordinate to God.

00:57:19.440 So what does that mean?

00:57:20.440 Well, we're going to tear that idea apart.

00:57:22.440 But partly what it means is that you're subordinate, even if you're sovereign, to the principle of sovereignty itself.

00:57:29.440 And then the question is, what the hell is the principle of sovereignty?

00:57:32.440 And I could say, we have been working that out for a very long period of time.

00:57:36.440 And so that's one of the things that we'll talk about.

00:57:39.440 Because the ancient Mesopotamians and the ancient Egyptians had some very interesting, dramatic ideas about that.

00:57:47.440 So, just for example, very briefly, there was a deity known as Marduk.

00:57:54.440 And Marduk, he was a Mesopotamian deity.

00:57:57.440 And imagine this is sort of what happened, is that as an empire grew out of the post-Ice Age age, say 15,000 years ago, 10,000 years ago,

00:58:07.440 all these tribes came together, and these tribes each had their own deity, their own image of the ideal.

00:58:12.440 But then they started to occupy the same territory, right?

00:58:15.440 And so then, one tribe had God A, and one tribe had God B, and, you know, one could wipe the other one out,

00:58:22.440 and then it would just be God A who wins.

00:58:24.440 But that's not so good, because, well, maybe you want to trade with those people,

00:58:27.440 or maybe you don't want to lose half your population in a war, something like that.

00:58:31.440 So then you have to have an argument about whose god is going to take priority, which ideal is going to take priority.

00:58:38.440 And what seems to happen is that's represented in mythology as a battle of the gods in sort of celestial space.

00:58:45.440 But from a practical perspective, it's more like an ongoing dialogue.

00:58:49.440 You believe this, I believe this. You believe that, I believe this.

00:58:52.440 How are we going to meld that together?

00:58:54.440 So you take God A, and you take God B, and maybe what you do is extract God C from them.

00:59:01.440 And you say, well, God C now has the attributes of A and B.

00:59:04.440 And then some other tribes come in, and then C takes them over too.

00:59:08.440 And so you get, like with Marduk, for example, he has a multitude of names, 50 different names.

00:59:13.440 Well, those are names, at least in part, of the subordinate gods that represented the tribes that came together to make the civilization.

00:59:21.440 That's part of the process by which that abstracted ideal is abstracted.

00:59:25.440 You think this is important, and it works, because your tribe's alive.

00:59:28.440 And you think this is important, and it works, because your tribe is alive.

00:59:32.440 And so we'll take the best of both, if we can manage it, and extract out something that's even more abstract,

00:59:38.440 that covers both of us, if we can do it.

00:59:40.440 And one of the things that's really interesting about Marduk, I'll just give you a couple of his features,

00:59:46.440 but he has eyes all the way around his head.

00:59:49.440 He's elected by all the other gods to be king gods, so that's the first thing.

00:59:53.440 That's quite cool.

00:59:54.440 And they elect him because they're facing a terrible threat, sort of like a flood and a monster combined, something like that.

01:00:00.440 And Marduk basically says that if they elect him top god, then he'll go out and stop the flood monster,

01:00:06.440 and they won't all get wiped out.

01:00:09.440 It's a serious threat.

01:00:10.440 It's chaos itself making its comeback.

01:00:13.440 And so all the gods agree.

01:00:14.440 And Marduk is a new manifestation.

01:00:17.440 He's got eyes all the way around his head, and he speaks magic words.

01:00:21.440 And then he also goes out, and when he fights, he fights this deity called Tiamat.

01:00:26.440 And we need to know that, because the word Tiamat is associated with the word Tehom, T-E-H-O-M.

01:00:33.440 And Tehom is the chaos that God makes order out of at the beginning of time in Genesis.

01:00:38.440 So it's linked very tightly to this story.

01:00:41.440 And Marduk, with his eyes and his capacity to speak magic words, goes out to confront Tiamat, who's like a watery sea dragon, something like that.

01:00:49.440 It's a classic Saint George story.

01:00:53.440 Go out and wreak havoc on the dragon.

01:00:57.440 And he cuts her into pieces, and he makes the world out of her pieces.

01:01:01.440 And that's the world that human beings live in.

01:01:03.440 And the Mesopotamian emperor acted out Marduk.

01:01:06.440 He was allowed to be emperor insofar as he was a good Marduk.

01:01:09.440 And so that meant that he had eyes all the way around his head, and he could speak magic.

01:01:13.440 He could speak properly.

01:01:15.440 And so that we're starting to understand there at that point, the essence of leadership, right?

01:01:19.440 Because what's leadership?

01:01:20.440 It's the capacity to see what the hell's in front of your face, and maybe in every direction.

01:01:25.440 And then the capacity to use your language properly in a transformative manner.

01:01:30.440 And to transform chaos into order.

01:01:32.440 And God only knows how long it took the Mesopotamians to figure that out.

01:01:36.440 And the best they could do is dramatize it, but it's staggeringly brilliant.

01:01:41.440 You know, it's by no means obvious.

01:01:43.440 And this chaos, this chaos is a very strange thing.

01:01:47.440 And this is the chaos that God wrestled with at the beginning of time.

01:01:50.440 Chaos is what, it's half psychological and half real.

01:01:54.440 There's no other way to really describe it.

01:01:57.440 The chaos is what you encounter when you're thrown into deep confusion.

01:02:01.440 Right?

01:02:02.440 When your world falls apart.

01:02:03.440 When you encounter something that blows you into pieces.

01:02:06.440 When your dreams die.

01:02:07.440 When you're betrayed.

01:02:08.440 It's the chaos that emerges.

01:02:10.440 And the chaos is everything at once.

01:02:12.440 And it's too much for you.

01:02:13.440 And that's for sure.

01:02:15.440 And it pulls you down into the underworld.

01:02:17.440 And that's where the dragons are.

01:02:19.440 And all you've got at that point is your capacity to bloody well keep your eyes open.

01:02:22.440 And to speak as carefully and clearly as you can.

01:02:25.440 And maybe if you're lucky you'll get through it that way and come out the other side.

01:02:29.440 And it's taken people a very long time to figure that out.

01:02:32.440 And it looks to me like the idea is erected on the platform of our ancient ancestors.

01:02:39.440 Maybe tens of millions of years ago.

01:02:41.440 Because we seem to represent that which disturbs us deeply.

01:02:46.440 Using the same system that we use to represent like serpentile.

01:02:50.440 Serpentile or other carnivorous predators.

01:02:53.440 And it, you know, we're biological creatures, right?

01:02:56.440 So, when we've formulated our capacity to abstract.

01:02:59.440 Our strange capacity to abstract and use language.

01:03:02.440 We still have all those underlying systems that were there when we were only animals.

01:03:07.440 And we have to use those systems.

01:03:09.440 They're part of the emotional and motivational architecture of our thinking.

01:03:14.440 And part of the reason we can demonize our enemies who upset our axioms.

01:03:18.440 Is because we perceive them as if they're carnivorous predators.

01:03:22.440 We do it with the same system.

01:03:24.440 And that's chaos itself.

01:03:26.440 The thing that always threatens us, right?

01:03:27.440 The snakes that came to the trees when we lived in them like 60 million years ago.

01:03:32.440 It's the same damn systems.

01:03:34.440 So, the Marduk story is partly the story of using attention and language to confront those things that most threaten us.

01:03:44.440 And some of those things are real, real world threats.

01:03:48.440 But some of them are psychological threats.

01:03:50.440 Which are just as profound but far more abstract.

01:03:53.440 But we use the same systems to represent them.

01:03:56.440 That's why you freeze if you're frightened, right?

01:03:58.440 You're a prey animal.

01:03:59.440 You're like a rabbit.

01:04:00.440 You've seen something that's going to eat you.

01:04:03.440 You freeze.

01:04:04.440 And that way you're paralyzed.

01:04:06.440 You're turned to stone.

01:04:07.440 Which is what you do when you see a Medusa with a head full of snakes, right?

01:04:11.440 You turn to stone.

01:04:12.440 You're paralyzed.

01:04:13.440 And the reason you do that is because you're using the predator detection system to protect yourself.

01:04:19.440 Your heart rate goes way up.

01:04:21.440 And you get ready to move.

01:04:23.440 Things that upset us rely on that system.

01:04:27.440 And then the story, the Marduk story, for example, is the idea that if there are things that upset you, chaotic, terrible, serpentine, monstrous, underworld things that threaten you, the best thing to do is to open your eyes and get your speech organized and go out and confront the thing and make the world out of it.

01:04:45.440 And it's staggering.

01:04:46.440 When I read that story and started to understand, it just blew me away that it's such a profound idea.

01:04:52.440 And we know it's true, too, because we know in psychotherapy, for example, that you're much better off to confront your fears head on than you are to wait and let them find you.

01:05:02.440 And so partly what you do if you're a psychotherapist is you help people break their fears into little pieces, the things that upset them, and then to encounter them one by one and master them.

01:05:12.440 And so you're teaching this process of eternal mastery over the strange and chaotic world.

01:05:18.440 And all of that makes up some of the background.

01:05:21.440 We haven't even got to the first sentence of the biblical stories yet.

01:05:31.440 But all of that makes up the background.

01:05:33.440 So you have to think that we've extracted this story, this strange collection of stories with all its errors and its repetitions and its peculiarities out of the entire history that we've been able to collect ideas.

01:05:47.440 And it's the best we've been able to do.

01:05:50.440 And I know there are other religious traditions.

01:05:53.440 I'm not concerned about that at the moment because we can use this as an example.

01:05:58.440 But it's the best we've been able to do.

01:06:00.440 And what I'm hoping is that we can return to the stories in some sense with an open mind and see if there's something there that we actually need.

01:06:07.440 And I hope that that will be the case.

01:06:11.440 And as I said, I'll approach it as rationally as I possibly can.

01:06:14.440 So, well, this is the idea to begin with, you know.

01:06:17.440 We have the unknown as such.

01:06:18.440 And then we act in it.

01:06:20.440 Like animals act.

01:06:21.440 They act first.

01:06:22.440 They don't think.

01:06:23.440 They don't imagine.

01:06:24.440 They act.

01:06:25.440 And that's where we started.

01:06:27.440 We started by acting.

01:06:28.440 And then we started to be able to represent how we acted.

01:06:31.440 And then we started to talk about how we represented how we acted.

01:06:35.440 And that enabled us to tell stories.

01:06:37.440 Because that is what a story is.

01:06:39.440 It's to tell about how you represent how you act.

01:06:43.440 And so you know that.

01:06:44.440 Because if you read a book, what happens?

01:06:46.440 You read the book and images come to mind of the people in the book behaving, right?

01:06:52.440 It's one step from acting it out.

01:06:54.440 You don't act it out because you can abstract.

01:06:57.440 You can represent action without having to act it out.

01:07:00.440 It's an amazing thing.

01:07:01.440 And that's part of the development of the prefrontal cortex.

01:07:03.440 It's part of the capacity for human abstract thought.

01:07:06.440 Is that you can pull the behavior, the representation of the behavior, away from the behavior.

01:07:11.440 And manipulate the representation before you enact it.

01:07:15.440 That's why you think.

01:07:17.440 So that you can generate a pattern of action and test it out in a fictional world.

01:07:22.440 Before you embody it and die because you're foolish.

01:07:25.440 Right?

01:07:26.440 You let the representation die.

01:07:28.440 Not you.

01:07:29.440 And that's why you think.

01:07:30.440 And so that's partly what we're trying to do with these stories.

01:07:36.440 What do I hope to accomplish?

01:07:38.440 I hope to end this 12 lecture series knowing more than I did when I started.

01:07:44.440 That's my goal.

01:07:46.440 Because I said that, you know, I'm not telling you what I know.

01:07:49.440 I'm trying to figure things out.

01:07:51.440 And this is part of the process by which I'm doing that.

01:07:57.440 And so I'm doing my best to think on my feet.

01:08:00.440 You know, I'm going to come prepared.

01:08:02.440 But I'm trying to stay on the edge of my capacity to generate knowledge.

01:08:06.440 And to make this continually clearer.

01:08:08.440 And to get to the bottom of things.

01:08:10.440 And so I'm hoping that that's what I want to accomplish.

01:08:14.440 And it seems like people are interested in that.

01:08:16.440 So then we're going to try to accomplish that together.

01:08:19.440 That's the plan.

01:08:20.440 And the idea is to see if there's something at the bottom of this amazing civilization that

01:08:26.440 we've managed to construct that I think is in peril for a variety of reasons.

01:08:34.440 And maybe if we understand it a little bit better we won't be so prone just to throw

01:08:38.440 the damn thing away.

01:08:40.440 Which I think would be a big mistake.

01:08:42.440 And to throw it away because of resentment and hatred and bitterness and historical ignorance

01:08:46.440 and jealousy and the desire for destruction and all of that.

01:08:51.440 It's like, I don't want to go there.

01:08:53.440 It's a bad idea to go there.

01:08:55.440 And we need to be grounded better.

01:08:57.440 And so, hopefully, well we'll see how this works.

01:09:02.440 Alright, so how do I approach this?

01:09:05.440 Well, first of all, I think in evolutionary terms.

01:09:08.440 You know, as far as I'm concerned, the cosmos is 15 billion years old.

01:09:13.440 And the world is 4.5 billion years old.

01:09:15.440 And there's been life for 3.5 billion years.

01:09:18.440 And there were, you know, there were creatures that had pretty developed nervous systems

01:09:22.440 300 to 600 million years ago.

01:09:24.440 And we were living in trees as small mammals 60 million years ago.

01:09:29.440 And we were down on the plains between 60 million and 7 million years ago.

01:09:34.440 And that's about when we split from chimpanzees.

01:09:36.440 And modern human beings seem to emerge about 150,000 years ago.

01:09:40.440 And civilization pretty much after the last ice age.

01:09:43.440 Something after 15,000 years ago.

01:09:46.440 Not very long ago at all, you know.

01:09:48.440 And that's the span across which I want to understand.

01:09:53.440 That's the span across which I want to understand.

01:09:55.440 I want to understand why we are the way we are looking at life in its continual complexity.

01:10:02.440 Right? From the beginning of life itself.

01:10:04.440 And there's some real utility in that.

01:10:06.440 Because we share attributes with other animals.

01:10:08.440 Even animals as simple as crustaceans, for example.

01:10:12.440 Have nervous system properties that are very much like ours.

01:10:15.440 And it's very much worth knowing that.

01:10:18.440 And so, I think in an evolutionary way.

01:10:20.440 I think it's a grand and remarkable way to think.

01:10:23.440 Because it has this incredible time span.

01:10:26.440 Right? It's this amazing.

01:10:27.440 I mean, people at the end of the 19th century.

01:10:31.440 Middle of the 19th century say.

01:10:34.440 Thought the world, really thought the world was about 6,000 years old.

01:10:37.440 I mean, 15 billion years old.

01:10:39.440 That's a lot more, right?

01:10:40.440 It's a lot grander.

01:10:41.440 It's a lot bigger.

01:10:42.440 But it's also a lot more frightening.

01:10:44.440 And alienating in some sense.

01:10:46.440 Because, you know, the cosmos has become so vast.

01:10:49.440 It's either easy for human beings to think of themselves as trivial specks on a trivial speck.

01:10:54.440 Some misbegotten hellhole end of the galaxy among hundreds of millions of galaxies.

01:11:01.440 Right?

01:11:02.440 It's very easy to see yourself as nothing in that span of time.

01:11:05.440 And that's a real challenge for people.

01:11:07.440 And I think it's a mistake to think that way.

01:11:10.440 Because I think consciousness is far more than we think it is.

01:11:14.440 But it's still something we have to grapple with.

01:11:16.440 I'm a psychoanalytic thinker.

01:11:20.440 And what that means is that I believe that people are collections of sub-personalities.

01:11:25.440 And that those sub-personalities are alive.

01:11:27.440 They're not machines.

01:11:29.440 They have their viewpoint.

01:11:31.440 They have their wants.

01:11:32.440 They have their perceptions.

01:11:34.440 They have their arguments.

01:11:35.440 They have their emotions.

01:11:36.440 They're like low-resolution representations of you.

01:11:39.440 You know, when you get angry, it's like...

01:11:41.440 It's a very low-resolution representation of you.

01:11:44.440 It only wants rage.

01:11:45.440 Or it only wants something to eat.

01:11:46.440 Or it only wants water.

01:11:48.440 It only wants sex.

01:11:50.440 It's you, but shrunk and focused in a specific direction.

01:11:54.440 And all those motivational systems are very, very ancient.

01:11:59.440 Very archaic.

01:12:00.440 And very, very powerful.

01:12:01.440 And they play a determining role in the manner in which we manifest ourselves.

01:12:05.440 And as Freud pointed out with the id.

01:12:08.440 We have to figure out how to take all those underlying animalistic motivations and emotions.

01:12:14.440 And civilize them in some way.

01:12:16.440 So that we can all live in the same general territory without tearing each other to shreds.

01:12:22.440 Which is maybe the default position of both chimpanzee and humanity.

01:12:27.440 So I take that seriously.

01:12:30.440 The idea that we're a loose collection of spirits.

01:12:32.440 You know, it says in the Old Testament somewhere that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

01:12:39.440 And I think this is akin to that.

01:12:41.440 If you know that you're not in control of yourself thoroughly.

01:12:44.440 And that there are other factors behind the scenes.

01:12:47.440 Like the Greeks thought that human beings were the playthings of the gods.

01:12:52.440 That's the way they conceptualized the world.

01:12:54.440 They sort of meant the same thing.

01:12:56.440 They meant that there are these great forces that move us.

01:12:59.440 That we don't create.

01:13:01.440 That we're subordinate to in some sense.

01:13:04.440 Not entirely.

01:13:05.440 But we can be subordinate to them.

01:13:06.440 And they move our destinies.

01:13:08.440 That was the Greek view.

01:13:09.440 And there's something.

01:13:10.440 It teaches you humility to understand that.

01:13:14.440 That there's a hell of a lot more going on behind the scenes.

01:13:17.440 And you're the driver of a very complex vehicle.

01:13:20.440 But you don't understand the vehicle very well.

01:13:22.440 And it's got its own motivations and methods.

01:13:25.440 And sometimes you think it's doing something.

01:13:27.440 And it's doing something completely, completely different.

01:13:30.440 You see that in psychotherapy all the time.

01:13:32.440 Because, you know, you help someone unwind a pattern of behavior that they've manifested forever.

01:13:37.440 First of all, they describe it.

01:13:38.440 Then they become aware of it.

01:13:40.440 Then maybe they start to see what the cause is.

01:13:42.440 They had no idea why they were acting like that.

01:13:44.440 You know, they have to have the memory that produced the behavioral pattern to begin with.

01:13:49.440 That has to be brought back to mind.

01:13:51.440 And then it has to be analyzed and assessed.

01:13:53.440 And then they have to think about a different way of acting.

01:13:56.440 And it's extraordinarily complex.

01:13:58.440 So, psychoanalytic.

01:14:02.440 Literary.

01:14:03.440 Well, there's this new...

01:14:08.440 There's this post-modern idea about literature.

01:14:12.440 And about the world, for that matter.

01:14:14.440 That if you take a complex piece of literature like a Shakespeare play.

01:14:20.440 There's no end to the number of interpretations that you can make of it.

01:14:24.440 You know, you can interpret each word.

01:14:26.440 You can interpret each phrase, each sentence, each paragraph.

01:14:29.440 You can interpret the entire play.

01:14:30.440 The way you interpret it depends on how many other books you've read.

01:14:34.440 Depends on your orientation in the world.

01:14:36.440 It depends on a very, very large number of things.

01:14:40.440 How cultured you are or how much culture you lack.

01:14:43.440 All of those things.

01:14:45.440 It opens up a huge, a huge vista for potential interpretation.

01:14:49.440 And so the post-modernists sort of stubbed their toe on that.

01:14:51.440 And thought, well, if there's this vast number of interpretations of any particular literary work.

01:14:57.440 How can you be sure that any interpretation is more valid than any other interpretation?

01:15:02.440 And if you can't be sure, then how do you even know those are great works?

01:15:05.440 How do you know they can't...

01:15:07.440 Maybe they're just works that the people in power have used to facilitate their continual accession of power.

01:15:13.440 Which is really a post-modern idea and a very, very cynical one.

01:15:18.440 But it has its point.

01:15:19.440 But the thing is, it's grounded in something real, right?

01:15:22.440 It's like, yes, you can interpret things forever.

01:15:24.440 I want to show you something here, just briefly.

01:15:27.440 We'll go back to it later.

01:15:28.440 Look at this.

01:15:29.440 This is one of the coolest things I've ever seen.

01:15:32.440 So, at the bottom here, every single one of those lines is a biblical verse.

01:15:38.440 Okay?

01:15:40.440 Now, the length of the line is proportionate to how many times that verse is referred to in some way by some other verse.

01:15:50.440 So you say, well, this is the first hyperlinked book.

01:15:53.440 Right?

01:15:54.440 I'm dead serious about that.

01:15:56.440 Like, you can't click and get the hyperlinks, obviously, but it's a thoroughly hyperlinked book.

01:16:00.440 And it's because, well, the people who worked on these stories that are hypothetically at the end.

01:16:04.440 Right?

01:16:05.440 Which is, the end can't affect the beginning.

01:16:07.440 That's the rule of time.

01:16:09.440 Right?

01:16:10.440 What happens now can't affect what happened to you ten years ago.

01:16:13.440 Even though it actually can.

01:16:14.440 But whatever.

01:16:16.440 Well, you reinterpret things, right?

01:16:18.440 And then they're not the same.

01:16:19.440 But whatever.

01:16:20.440 We won't get into that.

01:16:21.440 But technically speaking, the present cannot affect the past.

01:16:24.440 But if you were looking at a piece of literature, that's not right.

01:16:28.440 Because when you write the end, you know what was at the beginning.

01:16:31.440 And when you write the beginning, or edit it, you know what's at the end.

01:16:34.440 And so you can weave the whole thing together.

01:16:36.440 And there's 65,000 cross-references.

01:16:39.440 And that's what this map shows.

01:16:41.440 And so that's a great visual representation of the book.

01:16:44.440 And then you can see, well, why is it deep?

01:16:46.440 Why is the book deep?

01:16:47.440 Well, just imagine how many pathways you could take through that.

01:16:50.440 Right?

01:16:51.440 I mean, you'd just journey through that forever.

01:16:54.440 You'd never ever get to the end of it.

01:16:56.440 There's permutations and combinations.

01:16:58.440 And every phrase is dependent on every other phrase.

01:17:00.440 And every verse is dependent on every other phrase.

01:17:02.440 Not entirely, but 65,000 is not a bad start.

01:17:06.440 And so, okay, well, so that's another issue, in some sense, that seems to make the postmodernist critique even more correct.

01:17:17.440 How in the world are you going to extract out a canonical interpretation of something like that?

01:17:21.440 It's like it's not possible.

01:17:23.440 But here's the issue, as far as I can tell.

01:17:27.440 So when the postmodernists extended that critique to the world, they said, look, while a text is complicated enough, you can't extract out a canonical interpretation.

01:17:35.440 What about the world?

01:17:37.440 The world's way more complicated than a text.

01:17:39.440 And so there's an infinite number of ways that you can look at the world.

01:17:42.440 And so how do we know that any one way is better than any other way?

01:17:46.440 And that's a good question.

01:17:49.440 Now, the postmodern answer was, we can't.

01:17:52.440 And that's not a good answer, because you drown in chaos under those circumstances, right?

01:17:56.440 You can't make sense of anything.

01:17:58.440 And that's not good, because it's not neutral to not make sense of things.

01:18:05.440 It's very anxiety-provoking.

01:18:07.440 It's very depressing, because if things are so chaotic that you can't get a handle on them, your body defaults into emergency preparation mode.

01:18:15.440 And your heart rate goes up, and your immune system stops working, and, like, you burn yourself out.

01:18:20.440 You age rapidly, because you're surrounded by nothing you can control.

01:18:24.440 It's varying.

01:18:25.440 That's an existential crisis, right?

01:18:27.440 It's anxiety-provoking and depressing.

01:18:29.440 Very hard on people.

01:18:30.440 And even more than that, it turns out that the way that we're constructed neurophysiologically is that we don't experience any positive emotion unless we have an aim.

01:18:39.440 And we can see ourselves progressing towards that aim.

01:18:43.440 It isn't precisely attaining the aim that makes us happy.

01:18:48.440 As you all know, if you've ever attained anything, because as soon as you attain it, then the whole little game ends.

01:18:54.440 Then you have to come up with another game.

01:18:56.440 Right?

01:18:57.440 So it's Sisyphus.

01:18:58.440 And that's okay.

01:18:59.440 But it does show that the attainment can't be the thing that drives you, because it collapses the game.

01:19:05.440 That's what happens when you graduate from university.

01:19:07.440 It's like, you're king of the mountain for one day.

01:19:10.440 And then you're like, surf at Starbucks for the next five years, you know?

01:19:15.440 And so, yeah.

01:19:17.440 So what happens is that human beings are weird creatures, because we're much more activated by having an aim and moving towards it than we are by attainment.

01:19:27.440 And what that means is you have to have an aim.

01:19:29.440 And that means you have to have an interpretation.

01:19:31.440 And it also means that the nobler the aim, that's one way of thinking about it, the better your life.

01:19:37.440 And that's a really interesting thing to know.

01:19:39.440 Because, you know, you've heard ever since you were tiny that you should act like a good person.

01:19:43.440 And you shouldn't lie, for example.

01:19:45.440 And you might think, well, why the hell should I act like a good person?

01:19:48.440 And why not lie?

01:19:49.440 I mean, even a three-year-old can ask that question, because smart kids learn to lie earlier, by the way.

01:19:55.440 And they think, well, why not twist the fabric of reality so that it serves your specific short-term needs?

01:20:03.440 I mean, that's a great question.

01:20:04.440 Why not do that?

01:20:05.440 Why act morally?

01:20:06.440 If you can get away with something, and it brings you closer to something you want, well, why not do it?

01:20:12.440 What?

01:20:13.440 These are good questions.

01:20:14.440 It's not self-evident.

01:20:15.440 Well, it seems to me tied in with what I just mentioned.

01:20:18.440 It's like, you destabilize yourself, and things become chaotic.

01:20:22.440 That's not good.

01:20:23.440 And if you don't have a noble aim, then you have nothing but shallow, trivial pleasures.

01:20:30.440 And they don't sustain you.

01:20:32.440 And that's not good, because life is so difficult.

01:20:35.440 It's so much suffering.

01:20:37.440 It's so complex.

01:20:38.440 It ends.

01:20:39.440 And everyone dies.

01:20:40.440 And it's painful.

01:20:41.440 It's like, without a noble aim, how can you withstand any of that?

01:20:45.440 You can't.

01:20:46.440 You become desperate.

01:20:47.440 And once you become desperate, things go from bad to worse very rapidly when you become desperate.

01:20:53.440 And so there's the idea of the noble aim.

01:20:55.440 And it's not something...

01:20:57.440 It's something that's necessary.

01:20:59.440 It's the bread that people cannot live without, right?

01:21:01.440 That's not physical bread.

01:21:02.440 It's the noble aim.

01:21:04.440 And what is that?

01:21:05.440 Well, it was encapsulated in part in the story of Marduk.

01:21:09.440 That's...

01:21:10.440 That's...

01:21:11.440 It's to pay attention.

01:21:12.440 It's to speak properly.

01:21:13.440 It's to confront chaos.

01:21:14.440 It's to make a better world.

01:21:16.440 It's something like that.

01:21:17.440 And that's enough of a noble aim so that you can stand up without, you know, cringing at the very thought of your own existence,

01:21:24.440 so that you can do something that's worthwhile to justify your wretched position on the planet.

01:21:30.440 So, now there's a...

01:21:32.440 The literary issue is that...

01:21:34.440 So, look.

01:21:36.440 You take a text, you can interpret it a variety of ways.

01:21:39.440 But that's not right.

01:21:40.440 This is where the postmodernists went wrong.

01:21:42.440 Because...

01:21:43.440 What you're looking for in a text, and in the world for that matter, is sufficient order and direction.

01:21:50.440 So then we have to think, well, what does sufficient order and direction mean?

01:21:54.440 Well, you don't want to suffer so much that your life is unbearable.

01:21:57.440 Right?

01:21:58.440 That just seems self-evident.

01:22:00.440 Pain argues for itself.

01:22:03.440 I think of pain as the fundamental reality, because no one disputes it.

01:22:07.440 Right?

01:22:08.440 I mean, even if you say that you don't believe in pain, it doesn't help when you're in pain.

01:22:13.440 You still believe in it.

01:22:14.440 Right?

01:22:15.440 It's...

01:22:16.440 You can't pry it up with logic and rationality.

01:22:19.440 It just stands forth as what the fundament of existence.

01:22:23.440 And that's actually quite useful to know.

01:22:25.440 Say, well, you don't want any more of that than is absolutely necessary.

01:22:28.440 And I think that's self-evident.

01:22:30.440 And then you say, wait a minute, it's more complicated than that.

01:22:33.440 You don't want any more of that that's necessary today.

01:22:36.440 But also not tomorrow, and not next week, and not next month, and not next year.

01:22:40.440 So however you act now, better not compromise how you're going to be in a year.

01:22:45.440 Because that would just be counterproductive.

01:22:47.440 That's part of the problem with short-term pleasures.

01:22:49.440 Right?

01:22:50.440 It's like, act in haste, repent at leisure.

01:22:53.440 Everyone knows exactly what that means.

01:22:55.440 So you have to act in a way that works now, and tomorrow, and next week, and next month, and so forth.

01:23:00.440 And so you have to take your future self into account.

01:23:03.440 And human beings can do that.

01:23:04.440 And taking your future self into account isn't much different than taking other people into account.

01:23:10.440 Right?

01:23:11.440 I remember there's this Simpson episode, and Homer downs a quart of mayonnaise and vodka.

01:23:21.440 He says, um, someone, Marge says, you know, you shouldn't really do that.

01:23:26.440 And Homer says, that's a problem for future Homer.

01:23:29.440 I'm sure glad I'm not that guy.

01:23:36.440 That's so ridiculously comical, you know.

01:23:39.440 But, okay, but you see, we have to grapple with that.

01:23:42.440 And so the you that's out there in the future is sort of like another person.

01:23:46.440 And so figuring out how to conduct yourself properly in relationship to your future self isn't much different than figuring out how to conduct yourself in relationship to other people.

01:23:55.440 But then we could expand the constraints.

01:23:58.440 Not only does the interpretation that you extract have to protect you from suffering and give you an aim,

01:24:04.440 but it has to do it in a way that's iterable, so it works across time, and then it has to work in the presence of other people,

01:24:11.440 so that you can cooperate with them and compete with them in a way that doesn't make you suffer more.

01:24:16.440 And people are, they're, they're not that tolerant.

01:24:19.440 You know, I mean, they have choices, they don't have to hang around with you, they can hang around with any one of these other primates.

01:24:25.440 And so, if you don't act properly, at least within certain boundaries, it's like, you're just cast aside.

01:24:31.440 And so people are broadcasting information at you all the time about how you need to interpret the world, so they can tolerate being around you.

01:24:39.440 And you need that, because socially isolated, you're insane and then you're dead.

01:24:43.440 No one can tolerate being alone for any length of time.

01:24:46.440 We can't maintain our own sanity without continual feedback from other people, because it's too damn complicated.

01:24:52.440 So, you're constrained by your own existence, and then you're constrained by the existence of other people.

01:24:58.440 And then you're also constrained by the world, you know, if I read Hamlet, and what I extract out of that is the idea that I should jump off a bridge.

01:25:06.440 It's like, it's, it puts my interpretation to an end rather, rather quickly.

01:25:11.440 It doesn't seem to be optimally functional, let's say.

01:25:15.440 And so, an interpretation has, is constrained by the reality of the world, it's constrained by the reality of other people,

01:25:22.440 and it's constrained by your reality across time.

01:25:25.440 And there's only a small number of interpretations that are going to work in that tightly defined space.

01:25:31.440 And so, that's part of the reason that the postmodernists are wrong.

01:25:35.440 It's also part of the reason, by the way, that AI people who've been trying to make intelligent machines have had to put them in a body.

01:25:41.440 Is it turns out that you just can't make something intelligent, in some sense, without it being embodied.

01:25:46.440 And it's partly for the reasons that I just described, is, you need constraints on the system, before, you need constraints on the system,

01:25:55.440 so that the system doesn't drown in an infinite sea of interpretation.

01:25:59.440 It's something like that.

01:26:00.440 So, that's the literary end of it.

01:26:03.440 Moral.

01:26:04.440 Well, morality, for me, is about action.

01:26:07.440 And I'm an existentialist, in some sense.

01:26:09.440 And what that means is that, I believe that what people believe to be true, is what they act out, not what they say.

01:26:16.440 And so, there's lots of definitions of truth.

01:26:18.440 I mean, truth is a very expansive word, and you can think of objective truth.

01:26:22.440 But, behavioral truth isn't the same as objective truth.

01:26:26.440 What you should do, isn't the same as what is.

01:26:29.440 As far as I can tell, people debate that.

01:26:31.440 But, I think the reason that that has to be the case, is because, think about it this way.

01:26:36.440 You're standing in front of a field.

01:26:38.440 And you can see the field.

01:26:40.440 But the field doesn't tell you how to walk through it.

01:26:43.440 There's an infinite number of ways you could walk through it.

01:26:46.440 And so, you can't extract out an inviolable guide to how you should act from the array of facts that are in front of you.

01:26:54.440 Because there's just too many facts.

01:26:56.440 And they don't have directionality.

01:26:58.440 But you, you need to know.

01:27:00.440 You need to know how not to suffer.

01:27:02.440 And you need to know what your aim is.

01:27:04.440 And so, you have to overlay that objective reality with some interpretive structure.

01:27:09.440 And it's the nature of that interpretive structure that we're going to be aiming at hard.

01:27:13.440 I've given you some hints about it already.

01:27:15.440 We've extracted it in part from observations of our own behavior and other people's behavior.

01:27:20.440 And we've extracted it in part by the nature of our embodiment that's been shaped over hundreds of millions of years.

01:27:26.440 But we see the infinite plane of facts.

01:27:29.440 And we impose a moral interpretation on it.

01:27:32.440 And the moral interpretation is what to do about what is.

01:27:36.440 And that's associated both with security.

01:27:39.440 Because you just don't need too much complexity.

01:27:41.440 And also with aim.

01:27:43.440 And so, we're mobile creatures, right?

01:27:44.440 We need to know where we're going.

01:27:46.440 Because all we're ever concerned about, roughly speaking, is where we're going.

01:27:51.440 That's what we need to know.

01:27:53.440 Where are we going?

01:27:54.440 What are we doing?

01:27:55.440 And why?

01:27:56.440 And that's not the same question as what is the world made of objectively.

01:28:00.440 It's a different question.

01:28:01.440 It requires different answers.

01:28:03.440 And so, that's the domain of the moral, as far as I'm concerned.

01:28:06.440 Which is, what are you aiming at?

01:28:08.440 And that's the question of the ultimate ideal, in some sense.

01:28:11.440 Even if you have trivial, little, you know, fragmentary ideals.

01:28:15.440 There's something trying to emerge out of that that's more coherent and more integrated and more applicable and more practical.

01:28:24.440 And that's the other thing, is that, you know, you think about literature and you think about art and you think those aren't very tightly tied to the earth.

01:28:33.440 They're imperian and airy and spiritual and they don't seem practical.

01:28:37.440 But I'm a practical person.

01:28:40.440 And part of the reason that I want to assess these books from a literary and aesthetic and evolutionary perspective is to extract out something of value.

01:28:49.440 Something of real value that's practical.

01:28:52.440 You know, something, because one of the rules that I have when I'm lecturing is that I don't want to tell anybody anything that they can't use.

01:29:00.440 Because I think of knowledge as a tool.

01:29:02.440 It's something to implement in the world.

01:29:05.440 We're tool-using creatures and our knowledge is tools.

01:29:08.440 And we need tools to work in the world.

01:29:10.440 We need tools to regulate our emotions and to make things better and to put an end to suffering to the degree that we can.

01:29:16.440 And to live with ourselves properly.

01:29:18.440 And to stand up properly.

01:29:20.440 And you need the tools to do that.

01:29:22.440 And so I don't want to do anything in this lecture series that isn't practical.

01:29:27.440 You know, I want you to come away having things put together in a way that you can immediately imply.

01:29:33.440 I'm not interested in abstraction for the sake of abstraction.

01:29:38.440 Rational.

01:29:39.440 Well, it's got to make sense, you know.

01:29:41.440 Because the more restrictions on your theory, the better.

01:29:48.440 And so I want it all laid out causally so that A or B follows A and B precedes C.

01:29:58.440 And in a way that's understandable and doesn't require a leap, any unnecessary leap of faith.

01:30:05.440 You know, because that's another thing that I think interferes with our relationship with a collection of books like the Bible.

01:30:12.440 Is that you're called upon to believe things that no one can believe.

01:30:16.440 And that's no good.

01:30:17.440 Because that's a form of lie, as far as I can tell.

01:30:19.440 And then, well, then you have to scrap the whole thing.

01:30:21.440 Because in principle, the whole thing's about truth.

01:30:23.440 And if you have to start your pursuit of truth by swallowing a bunch of lies, then how in the world are you going to get anywhere with that?

01:30:29.440 And so, I don't want any uncertainty at the bottom of this.

01:30:34.440 Or, I don't want any more than I have to leave in it.

01:30:38.440 Because I can't get any farther than that.

01:30:40.440 And so, it's going to make sense, rationally.

01:30:43.440 I don't want it to be pushing up against what we know to be scientifically untrue.

01:30:50.440 Even though science is in flux.

01:30:51.440 And that's, you know, somewhat of a dangerous parameter.

01:30:54.440 I don't want...

01:30:55.440 If it isn't working with evolutionary theory, for example, then I think that it's not a good enough solution.

01:31:01.440 So...

01:31:03.440 And then, finally, it's phenomenological.

01:31:06.440 People...

01:31:08.440 Modern people...

01:31:10.440 You know, we think of the...

01:31:12.440 Of reality as objective.

01:31:14.440 And that's very powerful.

01:31:16.440 But that isn't how we experience reality.

01:31:19.440 We have our domain of experience, you know.

01:31:22.440 And it's...

01:31:23.440 This is a hard thing to...

01:31:25.440 To get a grip on, even though it should be the most obvious thing.

01:31:28.440 For the phenomenologists, everything that you experience is real.

01:31:32.440 And so, they're interested in the structure of your subjective experience.

01:31:36.440 And you say, well, you have subjective experience.

01:31:38.440 And you have subjective experience.

01:31:39.440 And so do you.

01:31:40.440 And there's commonalities across all of those.

01:31:42.440 Like, for example, you're likely to experience the same set of emotions.

01:31:47.440 You know, we've been able to identify canonical emotions.

01:31:50.440 And canonical motivations.

01:31:52.440 Without that, we couldn't even communicate.

01:31:53.440 Because you wouldn't know what the other person was like.

01:31:56.440 You'd have to explain infinitely.

01:31:58.440 There's nothing you can take for granted.

01:32:00.440 But you can.

01:32:01.440 You know, and phenomenology is the fact that...

01:32:03.440 In the center of my vision, my hands are very clear.

01:32:06.440 And then out in the periphery, they get...

01:32:07.440 They disappear.

01:32:08.440 And phenomenology is the way things smell.

01:32:11.440 And the way things taste.

01:32:12.440 And the fact that they matter.

01:32:13.440 And so you could say, in some sense, that...

01:32:15.440 Phenomenology...

01:32:17.440 Is...

01:32:18.440 Is...

01:32:19.440 The study of what matters, rather than matter.

01:32:22.440 And it's a given, from the phenomenological perspective, that things have meaning.

01:32:27.440 That it...

01:32:28.440 And, you know, even if you're a rationalist, say, and a cynic and a nihilist.

01:32:33.440 And you say, well, nothing has any meaning.

01:32:35.440 You still run into the problem of pain.

01:32:37.440 Because pain undercuts your arguments and has a meaning.

01:32:41.440 So, there's no escaping from the meaning.

01:32:44.440 You can pretty much demolish all the positive parts of it.

01:32:47.440 Trying to think your way out of the negative parts, man.

01:32:50.440 Good luck with that.

01:32:51.440 Because that just doesn't work.

01:32:52.440 So...

01:32:53.440 Phenomenology is...

01:32:55.440 And the Bible stories.

01:32:57.440 And I think this is true.

01:32:58.440 Fiction, in general, is phenomenological.

01:33:01.440 And...

01:33:04.440 It concentrates on trying to elucidate the nature of human experience.

01:33:08.440 And that is not the same as the objective world.

01:33:11.440 But it's also a form of truth.

01:33:13.440 Because it is truth that you have a field of experience.

01:33:16.440 And that it has qualities.

01:33:17.440 The question is, what are the qualities?

01:33:19.440 Now, ancient representations of reality were sort of a weird meld of observable phenomena.

01:33:26.440 Things that we would consider objective facts.

01:33:28.440 And subjective truth.

01:33:30.440 The projection of subjective truth.

01:33:32.440 And I'll show you, for example...

01:33:34.440 I'll show you how the Mesopotamians viewed the world.

01:33:38.440 They had a...

01:33:39.440 They had a model.

01:33:40.440 Basically, the world was a disk.

01:33:42.440 You know, if you go out in a field.

01:33:44.440 At night.

01:33:45.440 What does the world look like?

01:33:46.440 Well, it's a disk.

01:33:47.440 It's got a dome on top of it.

01:33:49.440 Well, that was basically the Mesopotamian view of the world.

01:33:52.440 And that view of the world that the people who wrote the first stories in the Bible believed too.

01:33:56.440 And on top of the dome, there was water.

01:33:59.440 Well, obviously.

01:34:00.440 It's like it rains, right?

01:34:01.440 Where does the water come from?

01:34:02.440 Well, there's water around the dome.

01:34:04.440 And then there's land.

01:34:06.440 That's the disk.

01:34:07.440 And then underneath that, there's water.

01:34:08.440 How do you know that?

01:34:09.440 Well, drill.

01:34:11.440 You'll hit water.

01:34:12.440 Well, it's under the earth, obviously.

01:34:13.440 Because otherwise, how would you hit the water?

01:34:15.440 And then what's under that?

01:34:16.440 There's fresh water.

01:34:17.440 And then what's under that?

01:34:18.440 Well, if you go to the edge of the disk, you hit the ocean.

01:34:21.440 It's salt water.

01:34:22.440 So it's a dome with water outside of it.

01:34:27.440 And then it's a disk that the dome sits on.

01:34:30.440 And then underneath that, there's fresh water.

01:34:31.440 And then underneath that, there's salt water.

01:34:33.440 And that was roughly the Mesopotamian world.

01:34:36.440 And you see, that's a mix of observation and imagination, right?

01:34:41.440 Because that isn't the world, but it is the way the world appears.

01:34:45.440 It's a perfectly believable cosmology.

01:34:49.440 And the sun rises and the sun sets on that dome.

01:34:53.440 It's not like the thing is bloody well spinning.

01:34:55.440 Who would ever think that up?

01:34:56.440 It's obviously the sun comes up and goes down and then travels underneath the world and comes back up again.

01:35:02.440 There's nothing more self-evident than that.

01:35:04.440 Well, that's that strange intermingling of subjective fantasy, let's say, right at the level of perception and actual observable phenomena.

01:35:13.440 And a lot of the cosmology that's associated with the biblical stories is exactly like that.

01:35:18.440 It's half psychology and half reality.

01:35:23.440 Although the psychological is real as well.

01:35:26.440 And to know that the biblical stories have a phenomenological truth is really worth knowing.

01:35:34.440 Because, you know, the poor fundamentalists, they're trying to cling to their moral structure.

01:35:41.440 And, you know, I understand why.

01:35:43.440 Because it does organize their societies and it organizes their psyche.

01:35:47.440 So they've got something to cling to.

01:35:48.440 But, you know, they don't have a very sophisticated idea of the complexity of what constitutes truth.

01:35:55.440 And they try to gerrymander the biblical stories into the domain of scientific theory.

01:36:00.440 You know, promoting creationism, for example, as an alternative scientific theory.

01:36:06.440 It's like, that just isn't going to go anywhere, you know.

01:36:09.440 Because the people who wrote these damn stories weren't scientists to begin with.

01:36:13.440 There weren't any scientists back then.

01:36:15.440 There's hardly any scientists now.

01:36:18.440 You know, it's really, it's hard to think scientifically, man.

01:36:21.440 It's like, it takes a lot of training.

01:36:23.440 And even scientists don't think scientifically once you get them out of the lab.

01:36:27.440 And hardly even when they're in the lab, you know, you've got to get peer-reviewed and criticized.

01:36:31.440 And, like, it's hard to think scientifically.

01:36:34.440 So, and however the people who wrote these stories thought was more like dramatists think.

01:36:38.440 More like Shakespeare thought.

01:36:39.440 But that doesn't mean that there isn't truth in it.

01:36:42.440 It just means that you have to be a little bit more sophisticated about your ideas of truth.

01:36:46.440 And that's okay, you know.

01:36:47.440 There are truths to live by.

01:36:50.440 Okay, well, fine.

01:36:51.440 Then we want to figure out what those are.

01:36:53.440 Because we need to live.

01:36:54.440 And maybe not to suffer so much.

01:36:56.440 And so if you know that what the Bible stories and stories in general are trying to represent is the lived experience of conscious individuals.

01:37:07.440 Like the structure of the lived experience of conscious individuals.

01:37:10.440 Then that opens up the possibility of a whole different realm of understanding.

01:37:15.440 And eliminates the contradiction that's been painful for people between the objective world and, let's say, the claims of religious stories.

01:37:23.440 So, okay.

01:37:24.440 Okay.

01:37:25.440 So let's take a look at the structure of the book itself.

01:37:29.440 So the first thing about the Bible is that it's a comedy.

01:37:32.440 And a comedy has a happy ending.

01:37:34.440 Right?

01:37:35.440 So that's a strange thing.

01:37:36.440 Because the Greek God stories were almost always tragic.

01:37:40.440 Now, the Bible is a comedy.

01:37:42.440 It has a happy ending.

01:37:43.440 Everyone lives.

01:37:44.440 There's a heaven.

01:37:45.440 So, now, what you think about that is a completely different issue.

01:37:49.440 I'm just telling you the structure of the story.

01:37:51.440 It's something like there was paradise at the beginning of time.

01:37:54.440 And then some cataclysm occurred and people fell into history.

01:37:58.440 And history is limitation and mortality and suffering and self-consciousness.

01:38:02.440 But there's a mode of being or potentially the establishment of a state that will transcend that.

01:38:09.440 And that's what time is aiming at.

01:38:11.440 So that's the idea of the story.

01:38:13.440 Now, it's a funny thing that the Bible has a story because it wasn't written as a book.

01:38:19.440 Right?

01:38:20.440 It was assembled from a whole bunch of different books.

01:38:22.440 And the fact that it got assembled into something resembling a story is quite remarkable.

01:38:27.440 And what the question is then, well, what is that story about?

01:38:33.440 And how did it come up as a story?

01:38:35.440 And then I suppose as well, is there anything to it?

01:38:37.440 It constitutes a dramatic record of self-realization or abstraction.

01:38:42.440 We already mentioned that.

01:38:43.440 It's like the idea, for example, of the formulation of the, let's say, the image of God is an abstraction.

01:38:50.440 That's how we're going to handle it to begin with.

01:38:52.440 I want to say, though, because I said I wasn't going to be any more reductionist.

01:38:56.440 than necessary.

01:38:58.440 I know that the evidence for genuine religious experience is incontrovertible.

01:39:05.440 But it's not explicable.

01:39:07.440 And so I don't want to explain it away.

01:39:09.440 I want to just leave it as a fact.

01:39:11.440 And then I want to pull back from that and say, okay, well, we'll leave that as a fact and a mystery.

01:39:15.440 But we'll look at this, we're going to look at this from a rational perspective and say that the initial formulation of the idea of God was an attempt to abstract out the ideal.

01:39:25.440 And to consider it as an abstraction outside its instantiation.

01:39:30.440 And that's good enough.

01:39:32.440 That's an amazing thing, if it's true.

01:39:34.440 But I don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater, let's say.

01:39:39.440 It's a collection of books with multiple redactors and editors.

01:39:42.440 So what does that mean?

01:39:43.440 Many people wrote it.

01:39:45.440 There's many different books, even, and they're interwoven together, especially in the first five books, by people who, I suspect, took the traditions of tribes that had been brought together under a single political organization and tried to make their accounts coherent.

01:40:05.440 And so, they took a little of this, and they took a little of that, and they took a little of this, and they tried not to lose anything because it seemed valuable, or it was certainly valuable to the people who had collected the stories.

01:40:16.440 They weren't going to, you know, tolerate too much editing.

01:40:20.440 But they also wanted it to make sense to some degree, so it wasn't completely logically contradictory and completely absurd.

01:40:29.440 And so, many people wrote it, and many people edited it, and many people assembled it over a vast stretch of time.

01:40:37.440 And we have very few documents like that, and so just because we have a document like that is a sufficient reason to look at it as a remarkable phenomena and try to understand what it is that it's trying to communicate, let's say.

01:40:51.440 And then I said, it's also the world's first hyperlinked text, which is that again, and very much worth thinking about for quite a long time.

01:41:00.440 Alright, there's four sources in the Old Testament or the Hebrew Bible.

01:41:06.440 Four stories that we know came together.

01:41:08.440 One was called the Priestly, there's a source called the Priestly, and it used the name Elohim or El Shaddai for God.

01:41:15.440 And I believe El is the root word for Ella as well.

01:41:19.440 So, and that's usually translated as God or the gods, because Elohim is utilized as plural in the beginning books of the Bible.

01:41:29.440 And it's newer than the Yahwist version.

01:41:32.440 Now, the reason I'm telling you that is because Genesis 1, which is the first story, isn't as old as Genesis 2.

01:41:39.440 Genesis 2 contains, the Yahwist version contains the story, for example, of Adam and Eve.

01:41:44.440 And that's older than the very first book in the Bible.

01:41:47.440 But they decided to put the newer version first.

01:41:50.440 And, well, it isn't, and I think it's because it deals with more fundamental abstractions.

01:41:55.440 It's something like that.

01:41:56.440 It's like it deals with the most basic of abstractions.

01:41:58.440 How the universe was created.

01:42:00.440 And then segues into what the human environment is like.

01:42:04.440 And so that seems to be the logic behind it.

01:42:07.440 The Yahwist version uses the name YHWH, which apparently people didn't say, but we believe was pronounced something like Yahwah.

01:42:17.440 And it has a strongly anthropomorphic God, so one that takes human form.

01:42:23.440 It begins with Genesis 2, 4.

01:42:26.440 This is the account of the heavens and the earth wind.

01:42:28.440 And it contains the story of Adam and Eve and Cain and Abel and Noah and the Tower of Babel and Exodus and Numbers, along with the priestly version.

01:42:36.440 It also contains the law in the form, just the form of the Ten Commandments, which is like a truncated form of the law.

01:42:44.440 There's the Elohist source.

01:42:49.440 It contains the stories of Abraham and Isaac.

01:42:52.440 It's concerned with a heavenly hierarchy that includes angels.

01:42:55.440 It talks about the departure from Egypt.

01:42:57.440 And it presents the covenant code, which is this idea that, you know, that society is predicated.

01:43:03.440 This was Israeli society.

01:43:04.440 It was predicated on a covenant with God.

01:43:06.440 And that's laid out in a sequence of rules, some of which are the Ten Commandments, but many of which are much more extensive than that.

01:43:13.440 And then the final one is the Deuteronomist code.

01:43:16.440 And it contains the bulk of the law and what's called the Deuteronomic history.

01:43:21.440 And it's independent of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers.

01:43:25.440 And so we know that at least four...

01:43:27.440 Now there's debate about this, like there is about everything, you know.

01:43:30.440 So I'm brushing over a very large area of scholarship.

01:43:33.440 But people generally assume that there were multiple authors over multiple periods of time.

01:43:39.440 And the way they've concluded that is by looking at textual analysis, you know.

01:43:43.440 Trying to see where there are chunks of the stories that have the same kind of style or the same reference.

01:43:49.440 And people argue about that because, you know, obviously it's difficult to recreate something ancient.

01:43:54.440 But that's the basic idea.

01:43:57.440 So it is an amalgam of viewpoints about these initial issues.

01:44:02.440 And that's important to know.

01:44:04.440 So it's like a collective...

01:44:06.440 It's a collective story.

01:44:08.440 And...

01:44:10.440 Okay, now.

01:44:11.440 To understand the first part of Genesis.

01:44:14.440 I'm going to turn, strangely enough, to something that's actually part of the New Testament.

01:44:25.440 And this is a central element of Christianity.

01:44:28.440 And it's a very strange idea.

01:44:30.440 And it's going to take a very long time to unpack.

01:44:33.440 But the idea...

01:44:34.440 This is what John said about Christ.

01:44:36.440 He said,

01:44:37.440 In the beginning was the Word.

01:44:39.440 So that relates back to Genesis 1.

01:44:41.440 In the beginning was the Word.

01:44:42.440 And the Word was with God.

01:44:44.440 And the Word was God.

01:44:46.440 Some...

01:44:47.440 Well...

01:44:48.440 You know...

01:44:49.440 Three sentences like that take a lot of unpacking.

01:44:51.440 Because...

01:44:52.440 Well, none of that seems to make any sense whatsoever, really.

01:44:54.440 Right?

01:44:55.440 In the beginning was the Word.

01:44:56.440 And the Word was both with God.

01:44:58.440 And the Word was God.

01:44:59.440 So the first question might be...

01:45:01.440 What in the world does that mean?

01:45:03.440 In the beginning was the Word.

01:45:04.440 That's the Logos, actually.

01:45:06.440 And the Logos is embodied in the figure of Christ.

01:45:09.440 So there's this idea in John that whatever Christ is.

01:45:12.440 The Son of God.

01:45:13.440 Is not only instantiated in history.

01:45:15.440 Say, at a particular time and place.

01:45:17.440 As a carpenter in some backwoods part of the world.

01:45:20.440 But also something eternal.

01:45:22.440 That exists outside of time and space.

01:45:25.440 That was there right at the beginning.

01:45:26.440 And as far as I can tell.

01:45:28.440 What that Logos represents is something like modern people.

01:45:31.440 It's something like what modern people refer to when they talk about consciousness.

01:45:35.440 It's something like that.

01:45:37.440 It's more than that.

01:45:38.440 It's like consciousness and it's capacity to be aware and it's capacity to communicate.

01:45:44.440 It's something like that.

01:45:45.440 And there's an idea underneath that.

01:45:46.440 Which is that being, especially from a phenomenological perspective.

01:45:50.440 So the being that is experienced cannot exist without consciousness.

01:45:54.440 It's like consciousness shines a light on things to bring it into being.

01:45:59.440 Because without consciousness, what is there?

01:46:02.440 No one experiences anything.

01:46:04.440 It's like, is there anything when no one experiences anything?

01:46:08.440 That's the question.

01:46:09.440 And the answer that this book is presenting is that, no, you have to think about consciousness

01:46:14.440 as a constituent element of reality.

01:46:17.440 It's something that's necessary for reality itself to exist.

01:46:21.440 Now, of course, it depends on what you mean by reality.

01:46:24.440 But the reality that's being referred to here, I told you already, is this strange amalgam

01:46:29.440 of the subjective experience and the world.

01:46:31.440 But the question is deeper than that, too.

01:46:33.440 Because it is by no means obvious what there is if there's no one to experience it.

01:46:39.440 I mean, the whole notion of time itself seems to collapse.

01:46:42.440 At least in terms of something like felt duration.

01:46:45.440 And the notion of size disappears, essentially, because there's nothing to scale it.

01:46:51.440 And the causality seems to vanish.

01:46:53.440 And so, and we don't understand consciousness.

01:46:57.440 Not in the least.

01:46:59.440 We don't understand what it is that is in us that gives illumination to being.

01:47:04.440 And what happens in the Old Testament, at least in part, is that that consciousness is associated with the divine.

01:47:10.440 Now you think, well, is that a reasonable proposition?

01:47:15.440 And that's a very complicated question.

01:47:17.440 But at least we might note that there's something to the claim.

01:47:21.440 Because there is a miracle of experience and existence that's dependent on consciousness.

01:47:27.440 I mean, people try to explain it away constantly, but it doesn't seem to work very well.

01:47:31.440 And here's something else to think about, I think, that's really worth thinking about.

01:47:35.440 People do not like it when you treat them like they're not conscious.

01:47:39.440 Right?

01:47:40.440 They react very badly to that.

01:47:42.440 And then, you don't like it if someone assumes that you're not conscious.

01:47:46.440 And you don't like it if someone assumes that you don't have free will.

01:47:49.440 You know, that you're just absolutely determined in your actions.

01:47:53.440 And there's nothing that's going to repair you.

01:47:55.440 And that you don't need to have any responsibility for your actions.

01:47:58.440 It's like our culture, the laws of our culture are predicated on the idea.

01:48:02.440 Something like, people are conscious.

01:48:04.440 People have experience.

01:48:05.440 People make decisions and can be held responsible for them.

01:48:09.440 That there's a free will element to it.

01:48:11.440 And you can debate all that philosophically and fine.

01:48:14.440 But the point is, is that that is how we act.

01:48:17.440 And that is the idea that our legal system is predicated on.

01:48:20.440 And there's something deep about it.

01:48:22.440 Because, you know, you're subject to the law.

01:48:27.440 But the law is also limited by you.

01:48:30.440 Which is to say that in a well-functioning, properly grounded democratic system, you have intrinsic value.

01:48:40.440 That's the source of your rights.

01:48:42.440 Even if you're a murderer.

01:48:44.440 We have to say, the law can only go so far because there's something about you that's divine.

01:48:50.440 Well, what does that mean?

01:48:51.440 Well, partly it means that there's something about you that's conscious.

01:48:54.440 And capable of communicating.

01:48:56.440 Like you're a whole world unto yourself.

01:48:58.440 And you have that to contribute to everyone else.

01:49:01.440 And that's valuable.

01:49:02.440 I mean, that you can learn new things.

01:49:04.440 You can transform the structure of society.

01:49:06.440 You can invent a new way of dealing with the world.

01:49:09.440 You're capable of all that.

01:49:11.440 It's an intrinsic part of you.

01:49:12.440 And that's associated with this.

01:49:14.440 It's associated.

01:49:16.440 That's the idea there.

01:49:17.440 Is that there's something about the logos.

01:49:21.440 That is necessary for the absolute chaos of the reality beyond experience to manifest itself as reality.

01:49:30.440 That's an amazing idea.

01:49:31.440 Because it gives consciousness a constitutive role in the cosmos.

01:49:36.440 And you can debate that.

01:49:38.440 But, you know, it's not.

01:49:39.440 You can't just bloody well brush it off.

01:49:41.440 Because, first of all, we are the most complicated things there are that we know of by a massive amount.

01:49:49.440 We're so complicated that it's unbelievable.

01:49:51.440 And so, you know, there's a lot of cosmos out there.

01:49:54.440 But there's a lot of cosmos in here, too.

01:49:56.440 And which one is greater is by no means obvious unless you use something trivial like relative size.

01:50:02.440 Which, you know, really isn't a very sophisticated approach.

01:50:05.440 And whatever it is that is you has this capacity to experience reality and to transform it.

01:50:12.440 Which is a very strange thing, you know.

01:50:14.440 You can conceptualize a future in your imagination.

01:50:17.440 And then you can work and make that manifest.

01:50:20.440 You participate in the process of creation.

01:50:23.440 That's one way of thinking about it.

01:50:25.440 And so that's why I think in Genesis 1, it relates the idea that human beings are made in the image of the divine.

01:50:33.440 Men and women.

01:50:34.440 Which is interesting, too.

01:50:35.440 Because, you know, the feminists are always criticizing Christianity, for example, as being, what, inexorably patriarchal.

01:50:43.440 Of course, they criticize everything like that, so it's hardly a stroke of bloody brilliance.

01:50:49.440 But I think it's an absolute miracle that right at the beginning of the document, it says straightforwardly, like, with no hesitation whatsoever, that the divine spark, which we're associating with the word that brings forth being, is manifest in men and women equally.

01:51:06.440 That's a very cool thing.

01:51:08.440 And you've got to think, well, like I said, you actually take that seriously.

01:51:12.440 Well, what you've got to ask is, what happens if you don't take it seriously?

01:51:16.440 Right?

01:51:17.440 That's, read Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment.

01:51:21.440 That's the best, the best investigation of that tactic that's ever been produced.

01:51:29.440 Because what happens in Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment is that the main character, whose name is Raskolnikov, decides that there's no intrinsic value to other people.

01:51:38.440 And that, as a consequence, he can do whatever he wants.

01:51:41.440 It's only cowardice that stops him from acting.

01:51:43.440 Right?

01:51:44.440 Because, why would it be anything else if the value of other people is just an arbitrary superstition?

01:51:50.440 Then why can't I do exactly what I want, when I want?

01:51:53.440 Which is the psychopath's viewpoint.

01:51:55.440 Well, so Raskolnikov does.

01:51:57.440 He kills someone who's a very horrible person, and he has very good reasons for killing her.

01:52:01.440 And he's half-starved, and a little bit insane, and possessed by this ideology.

01:52:05.440 It's brilliant, brilliant layout.

01:52:06.440 And he finds out something after he kills her, which is that the post-killing Raskolnikov and the pre-killing Raskolnikov are not the same person, even a little bit.

01:52:16.440 Because he's broken a rule, like he's broken a serious rule, and there's no going back.

01:52:21.440 And crime and punishment is the best investigation I know of, of what happens if you take the notion that there's nothing divine about the individual seriously.

01:52:31.440 Now, you know, most of the people I know who are deeply atheistic, and I understand why they're deeply atheistic, they haven't contended with people like Dostoevsky.

01:52:44.440 Not as far as I can tell.

01:52:45.440 Because I don't see logical flaws in crime and punishment.

01:52:48.440 I think he got the psychology exactly right.

01:52:50.440 And Dostoevsky's amazing for this, because in one of his books, The Devils, for example, he describes a political scenario that's not much different than the one we've seen.

01:53:01.440 We find ourselves in now.

01:53:02.440 And there are these people who are possessed by rationalistic, utopian, atheistic ideas.

01:53:07.440 And they're very powerful.

01:53:08.440 They give rise to the communist revolution, right?

01:53:10.440 I mean, they're powerful ideas.

01:53:12.440 And his character, Stavrigan, also acts out the presupposition that human beings have no intrinsic nature and no intrinsic value.

01:53:22.440 And it's another brilliant investigation, and Dostoevsky prophesies, that's what I would say,

01:53:28.440 what will happen to a society if it goes down that road?

01:53:32.440 And he was dead exactly accurate.

01:53:34.440 It's uncanny to read Dostoevsky's The Possessed, or The Devils, depending on the translation.

01:53:39.440 And then to read Alexander Solzhenitsyn's Gulag Archipelago.

01:53:43.440 Because one is fiction and prophecy, and the second is, hey, look, it turned out exactly the way that Dostoevsky said it would, for exactly the same reasons.

01:53:51.440 So it's quite remarkable.

01:53:53.440 So, well, so the question is, do you contend seriously with the idea that, A, there's something cosmically constitutive about consciousness,

01:54:03.440 and B, that that might well be considered divine, and C, that that is instantiated in every person.

01:54:10.440 And then ask yourself, if you're not a criminal, if you don't act it out.

01:54:15.440 And then ask yourself what that means.

01:54:17.440 Is that reflective of a reality?

01:54:19.440 You know, is it a metaphor?

01:54:21.440 Like, maybe it's a metaphor, a complex metaphor that we have to use to organize our societies.

01:54:25.440 Could well be, but even as a metaphor, it's true enough so that we mess with it at our peril.

01:54:33.440 And it also took people a very long time to figure out.

01:54:38.440 This is Genesis 1.

01:54:40.440 You know what, I'm probably going to stop there, because I believe it's 9.30.

01:54:45.440 And so we didn't even get to the first line.

01:54:48.440 Yeah, yeah.

01:55:01.440 Look, I want to read you a couple of things that we'll use as a prodroma for the next lecture,

01:55:05.440 because I'll just bounce through a collection of ideas that's associated with the notion of divinity, okay?

01:55:11.440 And then we'll turn back to the first lines when we start the next lecture.

01:55:15.440 I have no idea how far I'm going to get through the biblical stories, by the way,

01:55:18.440 because I'm trying to figure this out as I go along.

01:55:21.440 Okay, so, you know, there's an idea in Christianity that the image of God is a trinity, right?

01:55:29.440 There's the Father, there's the element of the Father, there's the element of the Son, and there's the element of the Holy Spirit.

01:55:34.440 And it's something like tradition, the spirit of tradition.

01:55:38.440 It's something like the human being as the newest incarnation of that tradition, like the living incarnation of that tradition.

01:55:45.440 And then it's something like the spirit in people that makes relationship with this and this possible.

01:55:53.440 The spirit in individuals.

01:55:54.440 And so I'm going to bounce my way quickly through some of the classical metaphorical attributes of God,

01:56:02.440 so that we kind of have a cloud of notions about what we're talking about when we return to Genesis 1,

01:56:07.440 and talk about the God who spoke chaos into being.

01:56:12.440 So, there's a fatherly aspect.

01:56:15.440 So here's what God as a Father is like.

01:56:18.440 You can enter into a covenant with it, so you can make a bargain with it.

01:56:22.440 Now, you think about that. Money is like that.

01:56:25.440 Because money is a bargain you make with the future, right?

01:56:28.440 And so we structured our world so that you can negotiate with the future.

01:56:33.440 And I don't think that we would have got to the point where we could do that without having this idea to begin with.

01:56:39.440 You can act as if the future is a reality.

01:56:42.440 There's a spirit of tradition that enables you to act as if the future is something that can be bargained with.

01:56:47.440 That's why you make sacrifices, right?

01:56:49.440 And the sacrifices were acted out for a very long period of time, and now they're psychological.

01:56:54.440 We know that you can sacrifice something valuable in the present, and expect that you're negotiating with something that represents the transcendent future.

01:57:03.440 And that's an amazing human discovery.

01:57:06.440 Like, no other creature can do that, to act as if the future is real.

01:57:10.440 To note that you can bargain with reality itself, and that you can do it successfully.

01:57:14.440 It's unbelievable.

01:57:16.440 It responds to sacrifice. It answers prayers.

01:57:19.440 I'm not saying that any of this is true, by the way.

01:57:22.440 I'm just saying what the cloud of ideas represents.

01:57:26.440 It punishes and rewards.

01:57:28.440 It judges and forgives.

01:57:30.440 It's not nature.

01:57:32.440 You see, the thing that's one of the things that's weird about the Judeo-Christian tradition is that God and nature are not the same thing at all.

01:57:39.440 Whatever God is partially manifest in this Logos is something that stands outside of nature.

01:57:44.440 And I think that's something like consciousness as abstracted from the natural world.

01:57:50.440 So, it built Eden for mankind, and then banished us for disobedience.

01:57:55.440 It's too powerful to be touched.

01:57:57.440 It granted free will.

01:57:59.440 Distance from it is hell.

01:58:01.440 Distance from it is death.

01:58:02.440 It reveals itself in dogma, and in mystical experience, and it's the law.

01:58:07.440 So, that's sort of like the fatherly aspect.

01:58:10.440 And then the son-like aspect.

01:58:12.440 It speaks chaos into order.

01:58:14.440 It slays dragons and feeds people with the remains.

01:58:17.440 It finds gold.

01:58:18.440 It rescues virgins.

01:58:19.440 It's the body and blood of Christ.

01:58:21.440 It's a tragic victim and scapegoat, and eternally triumphant redeemer simultaneously.

01:58:27.440 It cares for the outcast.

01:58:28.440 It dies and is reborn.

01:58:30.440 It's the king of kings and hero of heroes.

01:58:33.440 It's not the state, but is both the fulfillment and critic of the state.

01:58:38.440 It dwells in the perfect house.

01:58:40.440 It is aiming at paradise or heaven.

01:58:43.440 It can rescue from hell.

01:58:44.440 It cares for the outcast.

01:58:46.440 It's the foundation stone and the cornerstone that was rejected.

01:58:49.440 And it's the spirit of the law.

01:58:52.440 And then it's spirit-like.

01:58:55.440 It's akin to the human soul.

01:58:58.440 It's the prophetic voice.

01:59:00.440 It's the still, small voice of conscience.

01:59:03.440 It's the spoken truth.

01:59:05.440 It's called forth by music.

01:59:07.440 It is the enemy of deceit, arrogance, and resentment.

01:59:11.440 It's the water of life.

01:59:12.440 It burns without consuming.

01:59:14.440 And it's a blinding light.

01:59:16.440 Okay, so that's a very well-developed set of poetic metaphors, essentially, right?

01:59:22.440 So these are all, what would you say, glimpses of the transcendent ideal.

01:59:27.440 That's the right way of thinking about it.

01:59:29.440 They're glimpses of the transcendent ideal.

01:59:31.440 And all of them have a specific meaning.

01:59:33.440 And, well, in part, what we're going to do is go over that meaning as we continue with this series.

01:59:40.440 And so what we've got now is a brief description, at least, of what this is.

01:59:48.440 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

01:59:51.440 We know it's associated with the logos in this sequence of stories.

01:59:54.440 We know it's associated with the word and with consciousness.

01:59:57.440 And we know that it's associated with whatever God is.

02:00:02.440 And then I laid out the metaphoric landscape that, at least in part, describes God.

02:00:07.440 And so now we have some sense of the being that does this.

02:00:10.440 Creates the heavens and the earth.

02:00:12.440 The earth was without form and void.

02:00:14.440 That's that chaotic state of intermingled confusion.

02:00:17.440 And darkness was over the face of the deep.

02:00:20.440 And the spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

02:00:23.440 And God said, let there be light.

02:00:25.440 And there was light.

02:00:26.440 Light.

02:00:27.440 And so we'll stop with that.

02:00:29.440 Because now we're ready to take a tentative step into the very first part of this book.

02:00:35.440 And it's important to have your conceptual framework properly organized.

02:00:40.440 So that you can appreciate where it's going and what it might possibly mean.

02:00:45.440 And so, well, I've done what I can today to, what would you say?

02:00:49.440 Elaborate on this single word, I suppose.

02:00:52.440 Ha!

02:00:53.440 Ha!

02:00:54.440 But it's a big word, you know, so...

02:00:56.440 It's not so unreasonable that it takes a long time to get to the point where you have any sense of what it means at all.

02:01:02.440 All right.

02:01:05.440 That is nowhere near...

02:01:07.440 That is not...

02:01:08.440 I thought I would get a lot farther than that.

02:01:11.440 All right.

02:01:12.440 So thank you very much.

02:01:13.440 So thank you very much.

02:01:14.440 You see the runterks if they're going on some time.

02:01:15.440 Thanks, feet put the time as you go.

02:01:16.440 Thank you.

02:01:17.440 Thank you very much.

02:01:18.440 Thank you very much.

02:01:19.440 All right.

02:01:20.440 I want to thank you.

02:01:21.440 Thank you very much.

02:01:22.440 All right.

02:01:23.440 Thank you.

02:01:24.440 And thank you very much.

02:01:25.440 I want to thank you very much for that.

02:01:27.440 I want to thank you very much, for that .

02:01:31.440 So, we do have time for some questions.

02:01:38.040 We have to be out of here at 10.30.

02:01:39.540 It's 9.30, so maybe we'll have questions

02:01:41.680 until someone crazy grabs the microphone.

02:01:46.040 Or maybe we'll have questions for half an hour,

02:01:48.440 something like that.

02:01:49.540 So, if anybody has any questions,

02:01:51.720 then there's a microphone there,

02:01:53.040 and there's a microphone there,

02:01:54.620 and I'll try to answer them to the best that I can,

02:01:59.560 the best of my ability.

02:02:01.540 So, let's, sure, let's start.

02:02:06.940 Okay, so, you talked about the idea of

02:02:10.000 when you're confronting something that you fear,

02:02:13.560 you, like, you face it head-on, and you destroy it.

02:02:17.320 But then you said that the idea is

02:02:20.540 when you're confronting something,

02:02:21.620 you make the world out of it.

02:02:23.380 And I was wondering if you could just,

02:02:24.980 I mean, generally expound on what that means.

02:02:27.460 You make your marriage out of the arguments.

02:02:29.660 You know, you have arguments with your wife,

02:02:32.820 you have arguments with your children.

02:02:34.380 That's that chaotic state,

02:02:36.240 because no one's been able to formulate a habitable order

02:02:39.840 from that domain of controversy and confusion.

02:02:43.820 And then, through dialogue,

02:02:45.380 you erect a structure that's a house

02:02:47.080 that you can both live in.

02:02:48.320 And so, that's the idea of making the world out of that chaos.

02:02:53.020 And it's frightening,

02:02:54.400 because, you know, if you really have,

02:02:56.200 and this is why people often avoid

02:02:57.760 having disputes with people they love,

02:02:59.640 because it's frightening, right?

02:03:00.920 You find out what the person's like,

02:03:02.300 and you find out what you're like.

02:03:03.580 It's like, God, who wants to do that?

02:03:05.540 Nobody.

02:03:06.760 And so, you know,

02:03:07.760 your heart rate goes up,

02:03:08.940 and it's confrontation and conflict.

02:03:12.160 And that's because you're encountering that domain

02:03:15.160 that hasn't been properly mapped or configured.

02:03:18.900 And so, and you're doing that

02:03:20.540 with your predator detection systems, essentially.

02:03:23.540 And so, that chaos that threatens the stability,

02:03:26.560 say, of the marriage is equivalent to,

02:03:28.660 well, it's equivalent to the serpent in the tree.

02:03:30.580 That's one form of equivalence.

02:03:32.860 And then, by dialogue,

02:03:34.620 through dialogue and negotiation,

02:03:36.660 you formulate the problem.

02:03:38.260 What exactly is going on here?

02:03:39.840 Where exactly are we?

02:03:41.160 What exactly is the problem?

02:03:43.040 And so, you keep talking

02:03:43.980 until you reach a consensus about that.

02:03:46.440 One that you can live with.

02:03:47.640 One that you can act out.

02:03:49.280 Right?

02:03:49.520 And then you,

02:03:50.180 then maybe you come up with a solution to the problem,

02:03:52.540 and you've established peace again.

02:03:54.560 And peace, that's the house that you can both live in.

02:03:57.260 And that's the chaos.

02:03:58.600 That's the chaos that people can fall into,

02:04:00.580 all the time and often do.

02:04:02.480 And it's the chaos that makes a marriage

02:04:04.340 wash up on the shores

02:04:05.680 and transform into, like, you know,

02:04:07.940 15-year divorce court.

02:04:09.860 Very horrible thing.

02:04:11.540 So, that's the idea.

02:04:14.500 Okay, thank you.

02:04:15.480 Okay.

02:04:21.700 Hi, Dr. Peterson.

02:04:22.820 Thank you so much for the talk,

02:04:24.100 and thanks for your teachings.

02:04:25.560 It's really helped me a lot.

02:04:26.500 I had an experience in grad school,

02:04:28.660 two English degrees,

02:04:29.460 and the way you described the humanities

02:04:31.600 and my experience.

02:04:33.960 Help me understand my experience back then.

02:04:36.380 So, thank you.

02:04:37.560 That's too bad.

02:04:38.460 That's too bad that that happens to be the case.

02:04:40.900 Really, like that, you know,

02:04:42.060 it's really not good.

02:04:44.540 You don't have to tell me that.

02:04:45.880 Yeah.

02:04:46.560 Yeah.

02:04:46.760 But, you know, I survived,

02:04:48.700 and I learned a lot.

02:04:49.680 And, you know, I'm not, you know,

02:04:51.660 ungrateful for my experience.

02:04:53.120 I've learned a lot.

02:04:54.560 But you said something,

02:04:55.560 you described the Bible,

02:04:56.700 the collection of stories in the Bible,

02:04:58.420 in an interesting way,

02:04:59.160 and I wonder if it was on purpose.

02:05:00.820 You described it as created by,

02:05:03.720 an assembly of stories created by many people

02:05:06.600 over time that's hyperlinked into itself.

02:05:11.320 And it sounds a lot like how,

02:05:13.600 a description of, like, the Internet,

02:05:15.160 and, like, how that works.

02:05:17.560 Yeah.

02:05:17.900 Well, it's not accidental.

02:05:19.620 I mean, because the Internet's also a collective,

02:05:22.260 it's a collective endeavor.

02:05:24.480 God only knows what personality it's going to manifest.

02:05:27.600 You know, but it's going to manifest some personality

02:05:29.680 because it's learning to understand us very, very rapidly.

02:05:33.120 So, I think you could,

02:05:35.340 there's no reason not to think about it as a precursor.

02:05:37.840 I mean, the distance between the Bible and the Internet

02:05:40.540 is a lot less than the distance between a chimpanzee

02:05:43.140 and a human being.

02:05:46.300 So, you know, it's a,

02:05:48.400 and the difference between a book and the Internet is,

02:05:51.680 it's also, it's, in some sense,

02:05:53.380 it's a matter of, matter of degree rather than kind.

02:05:55.840 So...

02:05:56.840 So, if the Internet is going to, you know,

02:05:59.800 manifest a personality one day,

02:06:01.680 and then that personality gets invited,

02:06:04.380 it sounds like you're talking about it as a...

02:06:08.220 I, I can't speculate, you know,

02:06:11.580 because God only knows what's going to happen

02:06:13.720 in the next 20 years.

02:06:15.000 I certainly don't.

02:06:16.560 And so, I don't know what the preconditions are

02:06:18.780 for consciousness.

02:06:19.960 I have no idea.

02:06:20.820 And I don't think anybody knows.

02:06:22.640 So, I guess we're going to find out.

02:06:25.380 So,

02:06:25.840 Yep.

02:06:26.860 Yep.

02:06:29.140 Applause

02:06:29.660 Hey, Dr. Peterson.

02:06:34.800 I'm curious about the connection

02:06:37.000 between aesthetic beauty

02:06:38.500 and religious experience.

02:06:40.660 I think you've hinted at it once or twice

02:06:42.140 over the course of this lecture.

02:06:44.340 Is it possible

02:06:45.480 for something that's incredibly beautiful

02:06:49.400 to evoke a religious or mystical experience,

02:06:53.520 or something kind of in the same ballpark as that?

02:06:55.540 I think that's what they're for.

02:06:57.120 Yeah.

02:06:57.420 In some sense.

02:06:58.260 You know, I mean, if you look at the structure

02:06:59.600 of like a renaissance cathedral,

02:07:02.220 you know,

02:07:02.460 That's literally what I was just going to...

02:07:03.900 Right, right.

02:07:04.520 That was my tag on to...

02:07:06.060 I apologize if I'm into trouble.

02:07:07.380 My tag on to that question,

02:07:08.580 the next part was,

02:07:09.820 is that why we have cathedrals built

02:07:13.080 like a spectacular buildings

02:07:14.660 as opposed to...

02:07:15.740 Yeah, well, it's...

02:07:16.180 A whole box or something.

02:07:16.680 Right, well, it's...

02:07:17.460 If you're going to house the ultimate ideal,

02:07:19.920 you build something beautiful, right?

02:07:21.620 To represent its dwelling place.

02:07:24.800 And it should be beautiful.

02:07:25.880 And this is something

02:07:26.680 that people do not take seriously.

02:07:28.860 And this is especially something

02:07:29.940 we don't take seriously in Canada.

02:07:32.260 I mean, one of the...

02:07:33.080 You think about...

02:07:34.060 You think about all the hundreds of millions of dollars

02:07:36.720 that were invested into beauty in Europe.

02:07:39.700 I mean, spectacular, excessive investment in beauty

02:07:44.260 that's paid back God only knows

02:07:46.540 how many multiples of times.

02:07:48.260 People make pilgrimages to Europe constantly

02:07:50.860 because it's so beautiful

02:07:52.320 that it just...

02:07:53.260 It staggers you.

02:07:54.940 Beauty is so valuable

02:07:56.180 and we're so afraid of it.

02:07:58.060 And I think we're afraid of it

02:07:59.180 because it does...

02:08:00.240 It's a pathway...

02:08:01.080 It's not the only pathway to the divine.

02:08:03.140 I mean, there's a lot...

02:08:03.780 There's pathways to the divine.

02:08:05.660 Love is one of them, I suppose.

02:08:07.580 But beauty, especially for people

02:08:09.160 who have an affinity for beauty,

02:08:11.300 it's like music.

02:08:12.480 It's one of those things

02:08:13.260 that you can't argue against, right?

02:08:15.360 You can't even understand.

02:08:16.760 It just hits you.

02:08:18.460 And it does...

02:08:19.540 It shows you...

02:08:21.080 Well, it shows you the ideal.

02:08:22.320 That's one way of thinking about it.

02:08:23.540 But it also shows you, I think,

02:08:25.960 it's like a vision of the potential future.

02:08:28.580 It's something like that as well.

02:08:29.840 That if we just got our act together

02:08:31.340 and beautified things,

02:08:33.100 that that's the place that we can inhabit

02:08:34.980 and that would ennoble us.

02:08:36.460 And that's why this Jerusalem,

02:08:38.360 the heavenly city,

02:08:39.400 is paved with gemstones.

02:08:40.980 You know, they're crystalline.

02:08:41.960 They emit light.

02:08:42.760 And yeah, it's the proper dwelling place

02:08:45.320 for an enlightened consciousness.

02:08:47.160 Beauty is the proper dwelling place

02:08:48.620 for an enlightened consciousness.

02:08:50.360 And we ignore it

02:08:51.740 at our spiritual and economic peril.

02:08:55.260 It's like it's obvious

02:08:56.420 that beauty...

02:08:58.040 There's almost nothing more valuable than beauty.

02:09:01.180 Economically, practically.

02:09:02.660 Right?

02:09:02.920 So, yeah.

02:09:04.620 Why that is, I mean,

02:09:05.740 I don't...

02:09:07.080 It's very...

02:09:08.260 Who knows?

02:09:09.040 You know, I mean,

02:09:11.060 why we experience gemstones,

02:09:13.380 for example,

02:09:13.840 is beautiful.

02:09:14.500 It's very mysterious,

02:09:15.660 but there are deep reasons for it.

02:09:18.260 So...

02:09:20.180 Yep.

02:09:20.680 I have a bit of a similar question, actually.

02:09:28.540 I know what...

02:09:29.700 One of the ways in which

02:09:31.040 the Bible is appreciated,

02:09:33.360 even by some of its harshest critics

02:09:36.000 and deeply atheistic people,

02:09:37.880 is as a work of literature

02:09:39.040 and is something...

02:09:40.640 At least the King James

02:09:42.140 or the authorized translation of the Bible

02:09:43.680 is something very aesthetically beautiful

02:09:45.320 and a great work of literature

02:09:46.680 and a great work of poetry.

02:09:47.960 And I'm wondering,

02:09:50.180 just from your study of it

02:09:51.320 and from your personal perspective,

02:09:53.040 if there's any particular passages

02:09:55.120 or parts of it

02:09:56.100 that you find particularly

02:09:57.160 have struck you in that way

02:09:58.920 or that you cherish

02:10:00.220 more than any others

02:10:01.500 that you'd be able to share?

02:10:02.940 Well, the ones that have really...

02:10:04.700 The ones that have really opened up to me,

02:10:06.780 I think,

02:10:07.180 are the stories in Genesis,

02:10:09.480 right up to the Tower of Babel

02:10:10.860 because I think...

02:10:11.700 Well, hopefully I'll be able

02:10:12.820 to talk to all of you about that,

02:10:14.020 but I think I've got some sense

02:10:15.840 of what they mean and why.

02:10:17.480 I mean, I know it's not exhaustive

02:10:19.460 and obviously,

02:10:20.700 but like...

02:10:21.560 And then the story in Exodus as well,

02:10:23.640 I also feel that

02:10:24.840 like I've got a handle on that.

02:10:26.720 And so those have...

02:10:27.480 Those have hit me really, really hard.

02:10:29.840 And that, you know,

02:10:30.900 I mean,

02:10:31.400 just trying to understand

02:10:32.600 this first part of Genesis

02:10:33.840 to try to understand

02:10:34.740 what these concepts mean

02:10:35.820 has been...

02:10:36.880 Especially when I started to understand

02:10:38.620 that the concept

02:10:40.880 that human beings

02:10:41.880 are made in God's image,

02:10:43.140 that God has all those attributes

02:10:44.740 that we just described,

02:10:45.860 that human beings

02:10:47.180 are made in God's image,

02:10:48.520 that that's actually

02:10:49.240 the cornerstone

02:10:50.020 of our legal system.

02:10:51.120 That really rattled me

02:10:53.280 because I didn't understand

02:10:55.540 that clearly,

02:10:56.280 that our body of laws

02:10:58.300 has that metaphysical presupposition

02:11:00.680 without which

02:11:01.780 the laws fall apart.

02:11:03.480 And that's starting to happen.

02:11:04.620 It really is, you know,

02:11:05.600 like the postmodern critique of law.

02:11:07.660 The law schools are,

02:11:08.880 I would say,

02:11:09.940 they're overrun

02:11:10.780 by postmodernists

02:11:11.880 who are undermining

02:11:12.840 the structure of Western law

02:11:14.980 as fast as they possibly can

02:11:16.740 because they don't buy any of this.

02:11:18.660 And so they're much more likely

02:11:19.760 to just think of the law

02:11:20.840 as something

02:11:21.320 like a casual,

02:11:23.700 pragmatic tool

02:11:24.660 to be manipulated

02:11:25.500 for the purposes

02:11:26.300 of bringing forth the utopia.

02:11:28.280 It's a really,

02:11:29.500 really,

02:11:30.200 really bad idea.

02:11:31.900 So,

02:11:32.560 it's very strange to me

02:11:33.780 that we go off track

02:11:35.420 when that metaphysical foundation

02:11:37.060 starts to get rattled.

02:11:38.380 So,

02:11:39.060 do you think

02:11:39.640 your appreciation

02:11:40.500 of the aesthetic beauty

02:11:41.420 of it comes from

02:11:42.340 a belief in like

02:11:43.200 the truth of its

02:11:44.260 underlying propositions?

02:11:46.020 I mean,

02:11:46.240 that's,

02:11:46.720 because like

02:11:47.480 even the atheistic critics

02:11:48.600 I'm thinking of,

02:11:49.240 like even Dawkins

02:11:50.220 or Hitchens

02:11:51.000 really appreciate the Bible

02:11:52.700 as just a piece of

02:11:54.220 really beautiful literature

02:11:55.320 and I guess

02:11:55.940 the quality of the writing

02:11:56.920 and the sort of

02:11:58.220 exalted themes behind it

02:11:59.340 even if they totally reject

02:12:00.520 the underlying premises of it.

02:12:01.980 You seem to say that...

02:12:02.700 Yeah, well,

02:12:03.100 I don't think

02:12:04.060 that you can see it

02:12:05.020 as beautiful and poetic

02:12:06.400 and reject

02:12:07.960 the underlying premises

02:12:09.020 because

02:12:09.480 if you see it

02:12:10.740 as beautiful and poetic

02:12:11.760 you're accepting

02:12:12.540 the underlying premises

02:12:13.820 with your experience

02:12:15.540 of the beauty

02:12:16.200 and the poetics

02:12:16.960 even though you may be

02:12:17.960 fighting it

02:12:18.820 with your articulated rationality.

02:12:21.080 So,

02:12:21.280 I think all that

02:12:22.000 indicates

02:12:22.800 is a disintegrated

02:12:24.340 perspective on the book

02:12:26.060 and I'm not,

02:12:27.140 it's not surprising

02:12:27.920 that that's the case.

02:12:29.140 I mean,

02:12:29.520 it's the perspective

02:12:30.920 that everyone has

02:12:31.820 on the book

02:12:32.320 except with them

02:12:33.740 it's more well developed

02:12:34.740 and well thought through

02:12:35.660 but I think

02:12:37.060 it's fundamentally

02:12:37.880 they're not approaching

02:12:39.700 the thing

02:12:40.140 with enough respect.

02:12:41.740 That's my sense.

02:12:43.020 And who knows, right?

02:12:44.560 Because I don't know

02:12:45.660 but what I've tried to do

02:12:47.180 is to think

02:12:47.720 there's probably more

02:12:48.900 to this than I know

02:12:50.040 and then try to understand

02:12:52.300 it from that perspective

02:12:53.400 rather than to think

02:12:54.360 for example

02:12:54.920 well it's a collection

02:12:55.780 of superstitions

02:12:57.900 that we've somehow outgrown.

02:12:59.520 It's like

02:12:59.780 no,

02:13:00.220 it's just

02:13:00.600 sorry

02:13:01.120 that's

02:13:01.600 that's not a deep

02:13:03.560 enough analysis

02:13:04.280 because it's got

02:13:05.620 some truth

02:13:06.140 but

02:13:06.400 it doesn't

02:13:08.180 take into account

02:13:09.580 the fact

02:13:10.440 that the propositions

02:13:12.360 still stand

02:13:13.360 at the foundation

02:13:14.560 of our culture.

02:13:15.780 It doesn't address

02:13:16.600 Nietzsche's

02:13:17.180 central concern

02:13:18.300 which is that

02:13:18.840 if you blow out

02:13:19.600 the notion of God

02:13:20.500 the entire structure

02:13:21.760 crumbles.

02:13:23.060 You know

02:13:23.220 and you can debate that

02:13:24.620 fine

02:13:25.180 but I'd

02:13:25.900 you know

02:13:26.320 just assume

02:13:26.900 that you debated it

02:13:27.600 with Nietzsche

02:13:28.040 because

02:13:28.400 he's a pretty

02:13:29.180 tough customer

02:13:29.880 to tangle with

02:13:30.660 so

02:13:31.560 and I don't think

02:13:32.860 the atheist types

02:13:34.680 insofar as

02:13:36.060 there's a type

02:13:36.580 I don't think

02:13:37.060 they've wrestled

02:13:37.660 with the real problems

02:13:38.660 so

02:13:39.460 yeah

02:13:40.300 so I appreciate

02:13:48.000 you set out

02:13:48.520 some ground rules

02:13:49.300 keep things rational

02:13:50.980 and I think

02:13:52.120 that's going to help us

02:13:52.920 what I'm wondering

02:13:54.260 is

02:13:54.940 so for instance

02:13:56.080 you had said

02:13:56.720 elsewhere

02:13:57.260 the New Testament

02:13:59.200 from the best

02:14:00.400 from what you can see

02:14:01.560 it's psychologically

02:14:02.660 correct

02:14:03.540 and that's

02:14:05.100 you know

02:14:05.660 quite astounding

02:14:06.420 I would say

02:14:06.860 there's a lot of truth

02:14:07.960 and in

02:14:08.460 your depictions

02:14:09.840 of these stories

02:14:10.460 elsewhere

02:14:10.880 you've pointed out

02:14:12.280 like deep truths

02:14:13.220 you know

02:14:13.940 real powerful

02:14:15.020 so

02:14:15.280 what my question

02:14:16.860 would be is

02:14:17.400 if we can say

02:14:19.380 Nietzsche

02:14:19.980 took a

02:14:21.620 like an order

02:14:23.020 of magnitude

02:14:23.520 of

02:14:23.960 you know

02:14:24.700 intelligence

02:14:25.440 and you know

02:14:26.240 depth

02:14:26.720 to be able

02:14:27.160 to predict

02:14:27.620 what would

02:14:27.900 happen

02:14:28.140 in the

02:14:28.440 next

02:14:28.920 century

02:14:29.480 you know

02:14:30.860 rationally

02:14:31.720 if the Bible

02:14:32.680 is not

02:14:33.320 the inherent

02:14:33.860 word of God

02:14:35.060 what's going on

02:14:36.700 that's a good

02:14:38.060 question

02:14:38.560 that's a really

02:14:39.800 good question

02:14:40.340 I mean

02:14:40.560 I'm going to

02:14:41.060 try to answer

02:14:41.640 that

02:14:41.960 rationally

02:14:43.160 but

02:14:43.720 as we move

02:14:45.000 forward

02:14:45.300 but as I said

02:14:46.020 I don't want

02:14:46.680 to leave

02:14:47.180 people with

02:14:47.680 the notion

02:14:48.120 because you know

02:14:48.960 in some ways

02:14:49.860 this is something

02:14:51.780 I've thought

02:14:52.260 about

02:14:52.480 what I've been

02:14:52.960 thinking about

02:14:53.460 for a long

02:14:53.900 time

02:14:54.200 is I can't

02:14:54.760 tell if I'm

02:14:55.340 like an advocate

02:14:56.980 of the religious

02:14:57.620 viewpoint

02:14:58.000 or its worst

02:14:58.620 possible critic

02:14:59.520 because I am

02:15:00.740 doing my best

02:15:01.360 to make it

02:15:01.820 rational

02:15:02.240 and there's

02:15:02.740 a reductionistic

02:15:03.840 element to that

02:15:04.600 but I think

02:15:05.500 that I'm

02:15:06.540 doing that

02:15:07.080 while also

02:15:07.560 leaving the

02:15:08.080 door open

02:15:08.640 to things

02:15:09.120 that I don't

02:15:09.600 understand

02:15:10.120 because I

02:15:10.640 know that

02:15:11.140 there's

02:15:11.460 more to this

02:15:12.720 story

02:15:13.080 than I

02:15:13.560 understand

02:15:14.280 or can

02:15:14.840 understand

02:15:15.300 and I'm

02:15:15.820 laying out

02:15:16.220 what I

02:15:16.500 can

02:15:16.640 understand

02:15:17.080 and I'm

02:15:17.380 making it

02:15:17.760 rational

02:15:18.080 but I

02:15:18.440 do not

02:15:18.860 believe

02:15:19.120 for an

02:15:19.460 instant

02:15:19.820 that

02:15:20.520 that

02:15:20.840 exhausts

02:15:22.280 the

02:15:22.580 realm

02:15:23.400 it's like

02:15:24.140 there are

02:15:24.720 ways of

02:15:25.260 interpreting

02:15:25.740 these stories

02:15:26.400 that work

02:15:27.100 in the

02:15:28.300 conceptual

02:15:28.740 universe

02:15:29.180 we inhabit

02:15:29.740 right now

02:15:30.360 but

02:15:31.440 there's a

02:15:32.060 lot of

02:15:32.340 things

02:15:32.540 that we

02:15:32.840 don't

02:15:33.080 understand

02:15:33.560 and

02:15:33.940 what

02:15:34.140 thing

02:15:34.600 I've

02:15:34.900 found

02:15:35.120 about

02:15:35.400 digging

02:15:35.720 into

02:15:36.000 these

02:15:36.240 stories

02:15:36.620 is

02:15:36.880 that

02:15:37.040 the

02:15:37.200 deeper

02:15:37.460 you

02:15:37.700 dig

02:15:37.920 the

02:15:38.080 more

02:15:38.280 you

02:15:38.480 find

02:15:38.840 and

02:15:39.360 that's

02:15:39.640 pretty

02:15:39.840 damn

02:15:40.160 that's

02:15:40.540 one

02:15:40.640 of the

02:15:40.820 things

02:15:41.000 that

02:15:41.180 convinced

02:15:41.520 me

02:15:41.720 that

02:15:41.880 there

02:15:42.000 was

02:15:42.140 more

02:15:42.320 to

02:15:42.520 them

02:15:42.680 that

02:15:42.840 I

02:15:42.980 had

02:15:43.100 originally

02:15:43.500 suspected

02:15:44.420 because

02:15:44.860 things

02:15:45.440 would

02:15:45.620 click

02:15:46.020 and I

02:15:46.300 think

02:15:46.520 wow

02:15:46.760 that's

02:15:47.160 really

02:15:48.280 something

02:15:48.680 and then

02:15:49.320 I

02:15:49.420 would

02:15:49.560 take

02:15:49.800 it

02:15:49.900 apart

02:15:50.160 further

02:15:50.600 and

02:15:50.800 I

02:15:50.920 think

02:15:51.160 oh

02:15:51.460 well

02:15:51.960 I

02:15:52.300 thought

02:15:52.480 that

02:15:52.680 was

02:15:52.840 something

02:15:53.140 but

02:15:53.320 this

02:15:53.560 is

02:15:53.760 even

02:15:54.600 more

02:15:54.860 remarkable

02:15:55.420 it

02:15:55.680 just

02:15:55.840 keeps

02:15:56.140 opening

02:15:56.540 and

02:15:56.740 opening

02:15:57.040 and

02:15:57.340 so

02:15:57.580 I'm

02:15:58.360 going

02:15:58.460 to

02:15:58.540 make

02:15:58.720 it

02:15:58.840 rational

02:15:59.240 I'm

02:15:59.780 going

02:15:59.940 to

02:16:00.100 try

02:16:00.240 to

02:16:00.380 provide

02:16:00.680 an

02:16:00.840 answer

02:16:01.160 to

02:16:01.480 and

02:16:02.180 it

02:16:02.280 is

02:16:02.500 I

02:16:02.680 think

02:16:02.860 you're

02:16:03.060 right

02:16:03.240 about

02:16:03.500 speaking

02:16:03.840 about

02:16:04.140 Nietzsche

02:16:04.460 and

02:16:04.600 his

02:16:04.740 capacity

02:16:05.160 for

02:16:05.400 prophecy

02:16:05.840 and

02:16:06.080 Dostoevsky

02:16:06.680 is

02:16:06.800 in

02:16:06.920 the

02:16:07.040 same

02:16:07.260 category

02:16:07.740 it's

02:16:08.260 like

02:16:08.420 there

02:16:09.000 are

02:16:09.160 prophetic

02:16:09.740 elements

02:16:10.340 to

02:16:10.620 the

02:16:10.780 Old

02:16:10.980 and

02:16:11.240 New

02:16:11.440 Testament

02:16:11.800 that

02:16:12.080 seem

02:16:12.260 to

02:16:12.420 stretch

02:16:12.780 over

02:16:12.980 much

02:16:13.340 vaster

02:16:13.920 spans

02:16:14.460 of

02:16:14.660 time

02:16:15.060 and

02:16:15.800 I'm

02:16:16.100 going

02:16:16.400 to

02:16:16.540 try

02:16:16.700 to

02:16:16.840 produce

02:16:17.120 a

02:16:17.280 rational

02:16:17.700 account

02:16:18.100 of

02:16:18.280 that

02:16:18.500 but

02:16:18.940 I

02:16:19.020 mean

02:16:19.200 one

02:16:19.400 of

02:16:19.500 the

02:16:19.600 reasons

02:16:19.860 that

02:16:20.080 I

02:16:20.200 think

02:16:20.420 the

02:16:20.600 New

02:16:20.760 Testament

02:16:21.100 is

02:16:21.420 psychologically

02:16:22.100 true

02:16:22.620 let's

02:16:22.980 say

02:16:23.140 is

02:16:23.260 because

02:16:23.540 and

02:16:24.160 this

02:16:24.320 is

02:16:24.440 one

02:16:24.580 of

02:16:24.680 the

02:16:24.780 things

02:16:25.020 that's

02:16:26.580 deeply

02:16:27.340 embedded

02:16:27.820 in the

02:16:28.200 structure

02:16:28.500 of

02:16:28.680 the

02:16:28.800 Bible

02:16:29.100 in

02:16:29.340 the

02:16:29.640 Old

02:16:29.840 Testament

02:16:30.200 there's

02:16:30.560 this

02:16:30.760 idea

02:16:31.160 and

02:16:32.340 I'm

02:16:32.600 skipping

02:16:32.840 ahead

02:16:33.200 that

02:16:33.540 through

02:16:35.800 a

02:16:36.020 succession

02:16:36.540 of

02:16:36.880 states

02:16:37.460 the

02:16:38.360 people

02:16:38.680 who

02:16:38.880 behave

02:16:39.240 properly

02:16:39.680 will

02:16:39.940 eventually

02:16:40.440 establish

02:16:41.260 the

02:16:41.560 proper

02:16:41.960 state

02:16:42.620 and

02:16:43.220 so

02:16:43.360 the

02:16:43.520 state

02:16:43.840 is

02:16:44.040 viewed

02:16:44.320 in

02:16:44.520 some

02:16:44.740 sense

02:16:45.040 as

02:16:45.280 the

02:16:45.520 entity

02:16:46.540 of

02:16:46.820 salvation

02:16:47.440 but

02:16:48.660 what

02:16:48.900 happens

02:16:49.240 in

02:16:49.380 the

02:16:49.480 New

02:16:49.620 Testament

02:16:49.940 is

02:16:50.180 that

02:16:50.400 idea

02:16:50.740 gets

02:16:51.020 you

02:16:51.940 could

02:16:52.100 say

02:16:52.280 deconstructed

02:16:53.260 and

02:16:53.780 instead

02:16:54.120 of

02:16:54.960 a

02:16:55.140 state

02:16:55.480 being

02:16:55.900 the

02:16:56.560 place

02:16:57.460 of

02:16:57.640 redemption

02:16:58.100 a

02:16:58.640 state

02:16:58.980 of

02:16:59.140 being

02:16:59.700 becomes

02:17:00.200 the

02:17:00.440 state

02:17:00.680 of

02:17:00.820 redemption

02:17:01.200 and

02:17:01.460 so

02:17:01.680 the

02:17:02.380 idea

02:17:03.040 that

02:17:03.280 human

02:17:03.520 beings

02:17:03.820 will

02:17:04.020 be

02:17:04.480 redeemed

02:17:05.000 moves

02:17:05.740 from

02:17:06.100 the

02:17:06.740 utopian

02:17:07.340 state

02:17:07.780 vision

02:17:08.180 to

02:17:08.800 the

02:17:09.100 responsibility

02:17:09.760 of

02:17:10.200 the

02:17:10.320 individual

02:17:10.760 and

02:17:11.220 I

02:17:11.380 think

02:17:11.620 that's

02:17:11.980 correct

02:17:12.520 I

02:17:12.760 mean

02:17:12.900 I

02:17:14.160 believe

02:17:14.660 that

02:17:14.880 that's

02:17:15.200 the

02:17:15.760 right

02:17:16.140 answer

02:17:16.640 and

02:17:17.160 I

02:17:17.320 think

02:17:17.540 that

02:17:17.760 West

02:17:18.280 in

02:17:18.520 particular

02:17:19.020 is

02:17:19.240 predicated

02:17:19.720 on

02:17:19.960 that

02:17:20.560 idea

02:17:20.860 because

02:17:21.220 it

02:17:21.800 makes

02:17:22.140 the

02:17:22.360 state

02:17:22.720 subservient

02:17:23.580 to

02:17:23.920 the

02:17:24.060 individual

02:17:24.520 I

02:17:25.040 mean

02:17:25.140 there's

02:17:25.300 a

02:17:25.480 there's

02:17:27.300 a

02:17:27.400 what

02:17:27.620 a

02:17:27.900 dialogue

02:17:28.380 a

02:17:28.700 continual

02:17:29.200 dialogue

02:17:29.600 but

02:17:29.920 in

02:17:30.100 the

02:17:30.240 final

02:17:30.700 analysis

02:17:31.300 the

02:17:32.020 locus

02:17:32.380 of

02:17:32.560 the

02:17:32.720 divine

02:17:33.020 is

02:17:33.220 the

02:17:33.380 individual

02:17:33.780 not

02:17:34.060 the

02:17:34.260 state

02:17:34.540 and

02:17:34.720 I

02:17:34.860 believe

02:17:35.240 that

02:17:36.180 that's

02:17:36.920 so

02:17:37.160 true

02:17:37.560 that

02:17:37.780 if

02:17:37.940 we

02:17:38.100 don't

02:17:38.600 act

02:17:39.060 it

02:17:39.180 out

02:17:39.320 and

02:17:39.460 believe

02:17:39.720 it

02:17:39.880 then

02:17:40.100 we

02:17:40.280 all

02:17:40.560 die

02:17:40.860 painfully

02:17:41.520 and

02:17:42.020 that's

02:17:42.280 true

02:17:42.520 enough

02:17:42.820 for

02:17:43.020 me

02:17:43.300 so

02:17:44.060 I

02:17:50.300 thank you

02:17:50.820 for

02:17:51.200 illuminating

02:17:52.140 talk

02:17:52.600 I'm

02:17:53.440 going to

02:17:53.680 keep you

02:17:54.000 on the

02:17:54.440 creation

02:17:54.760 story

02:17:55.260 and if

02:17:55.620 you don't

02:17:55.940 mind

02:17:56.240 because we

02:17:57.060 know

02:17:57.320 this

02:17:57.720 editing

02:17:58.200 that was

02:17:58.800 done

02:17:59.240 there was

02:17:59.820 the purpose

02:18:00.440 for the

02:18:00.760 editing

02:18:01.140 can you

02:18:02.020 give us

02:18:02.780 your

02:18:02.960 thoughts

02:18:03.360 about

02:18:03.800 the

02:18:04.100 difference

02:18:04.520 in the

02:18:05.440 story

02:18:05.720 of

02:18:05.880 creation

02:18:06.320 especially

02:18:06.800 pertaining

02:18:07.300 to

02:18:07.560 men

02:18:07.920 from

02:18:09.020 the

02:18:09.480 first

02:18:09.740 chapter

02:18:10.200 which

02:18:10.640 is

02:18:11.080 very

02:18:11.600 godlike

02:18:12.540 you know

02:18:12.900 by a

02:18:13.380 word

02:18:13.700 and to

02:18:14.720 the

02:18:14.880 second

02:18:15.140 one

02:18:15.480 which

02:18:15.700 is

02:18:15.840 more

02:18:16.020 like

02:18:16.220 a

02:18:16.380 fatherly

02:18:16.980 type

02:18:17.580 of

02:18:17.840 creation

02:18:18.820 is it

02:18:20.080 the

02:18:20.260 selling

02:18:20.520 point

02:18:20.960 what

02:18:21.340 was

02:18:21.540 the

02:18:21.740 reason

02:18:22.180 for

02:18:22.480 this

02:18:22.860 type

02:18:23.440 of

02:18:23.680 editing

02:18:24.100 to

02:18:24.340 put

02:18:24.540 the

02:18:24.680 two

02:18:24.820 together

02:18:25.300 well

02:18:25.700 I

02:18:26.320 think

02:18:26.800 you

02:18:27.440 know

02:18:27.640 the

02:18:28.320 more

02:18:28.580 cynical

02:18:29.120 would

02:18:30.000 call

02:18:30.340 critic

02:18:30.720 criticisms

02:18:31.600 of

02:18:32.000 the

02:18:32.720 bible

02:18:33.020 and

02:18:33.300 the

02:18:33.600 religious

02:18:33.860 tradition

02:18:34.380 criticisms

02:18:35.300 like

02:18:35.640 marx's

02:18:36.360 or freud's

02:18:36.940 even

02:18:37.120 for that

02:18:37.500 matter

02:18:37.820 make the

02:18:38.960 case

02:18:39.200 that

02:18:39.440 it's

02:18:40.240 a

02:18:40.340 manifestation

02:18:41.240 of

02:18:41.760 power

02:18:42.280 and

02:18:42.480 politics

02:18:43.020 and

02:18:44.180 that

02:18:44.580 there's

02:18:44.780 always

02:18:45.020 a

02:18:45.180 political

02:18:45.540 or

02:18:45.800 economic

02:18:46.200 motivation

02:18:46.780 behind

02:18:47.140 the

02:18:47.320 construction

02:18:47.720 of

02:18:47.920 the

02:18:48.060 stories

02:18:48.440 and

02:18:49.000 I

02:18:49.120 think

02:18:49.340 that

02:18:49.500 that's

02:18:49.760 true

02:18:49.960 to

02:18:50.140 some

02:18:50.400 degree

02:18:50.800 but

02:18:51.540 I

02:18:51.660 don't

02:18:51.880 think

02:18:52.120 that

02:18:52.300 it's

02:18:52.560 true

02:18:53.360 enough

02:18:53.740 so

02:18:54.000 that

02:18:54.220 you

02:18:55.180 can

02:18:55.340 take

02:18:55.600 that

02:18:55.840 particular

02:18:56.260 interpretive

02:18:56.960 tack

02:18:57.540 and

02:18:57.900 be

02:18:58.080 done

02:18:58.320 with

02:18:58.560 it

02:18:58.760 and

02:18:59.360 I

02:18:59.460 would

02:18:59.600 say

02:18:59.820 that

02:19:00.020 to

02:19:00.420 the

02:19:00.560 degree

02:19:00.800 that

02:19:01.020 there

02:19:01.160 are

02:19:01.320 political

02:19:01.880 and

02:19:02.460 economic

02:19:02.940 motivations

02:19:03.540 that

02:19:03.780 have

02:19:03.900 shaped

02:19:04.200 the

02:19:04.440 stories

02:19:04.860 the

02:19:05.400 fact

02:19:05.640 that

02:19:05.840 multiple

02:19:06.220 stories

02:19:06.740 have

02:19:06.920 come

02:19:07.160 together

02:19:07.640 they're

02:19:08.140 sort

02:19:08.320 of

02:19:08.440 corrective

02:19:09.080 in

02:19:09.220 some

02:19:09.460 sense

02:19:09.880 and

02:19:10.040 so

02:19:10.200 even

02:19:11.360 if

02:19:11.780 at

02:19:11.980 the

02:19:12.140 level

02:19:12.380 of

02:19:12.580 detail

02:19:13.020 there's

02:19:14.280 political

02:19:14.760 intrigue

02:19:15.400 and

02:19:15.560 politics

02:19:16.360 say

02:19:17.280 with

02:19:17.460 regards

02:19:17.780 to

02:19:17.960 the

02:19:18.100 ascendancy

02:19:18.580 of

02:19:18.780 Israel

02:19:19.140 when

02:19:20.520 you

02:19:20.660 step

02:19:20.960 away

02:19:21.260 from

02:19:21.540 it

02:19:21.660 it

02:19:21.780 becomes

02:19:22.100 something

02:19:22.420 that's

02:19:22.700 more

02:19:23.140 universal

02:19:23.680 and

02:19:28.320 I

02:19:28.400 don't

02:19:28.500 know

02:19:28.740 I

02:19:29.080 mean

02:19:29.180 I

02:19:29.340 think

02:19:29.600 it's

02:19:30.120 safe

02:19:30.460 to

02:19:30.700 say

02:19:31.000 it's

02:19:31.440 reasonably

02:19:32.000 safe

02:19:32.400 to

02:19:32.580 say

02:19:32.740 that

02:19:32.940 the

02:19:33.080 people

02:19:33.320 who

02:19:33.500 put

02:19:33.700 this

02:19:33.900 document

02:19:34.280 together

02:19:34.720 they

02:19:35.220 did

02:19:35.400 two

02:19:35.620 things

02:19:35.920 I

02:19:36.080 think

02:19:36.280 they

02:19:36.420 were

02:19:36.560 guided

02:19:36.900 by

02:19:37.160 their

02:19:37.500 aesthetic

02:19:38.160 taste

02:19:38.980 and

02:19:39.280 their

02:19:39.460 conscience

02:19:40.000 I

02:19:40.440 truly

02:19:40.700 believe

02:19:41.040 that

02:19:41.300 and

02:19:41.760 the

02:19:41.880 reason

02:19:42.120 I

02:19:42.280 believe

02:19:42.620 that

02:19:42.860 is

02:19:42.980 because

02:19:43.300 I

02:19:43.900 think

02:19:44.180 anything

02:19:44.580 that

02:19:44.820 was

02:19:44.980 propagandistic

02:19:46.200 would

02:19:46.780 have

02:19:46.940 been

02:19:47.160 forgotten

02:19:47.820 because

02:19:48.920 you

02:19:49.040 can't

02:19:49.280 remember

02:19:49.640 propaganda

02:19:50.300 no

02:19:51.040 one

02:19:51.200 likes

02:19:51.560 it

02:19:51.760 it

02:19:58.320 they

02:19:58.580 were

02:19:58.740 preserved

02:19:59.300 and

02:19:59.840 remembered

02:20:00.380 and

02:20:01.040 to

02:20:01.160 me

02:20:01.300 that

02:20:01.500 means

02:20:01.720 they

02:20:01.880 have

02:20:02.100 an

02:20:02.220 affinity

02:20:02.640 with

02:20:03.000 the

02:20:03.180 structure

02:20:03.520 of

02:20:03.740 memory

02:20:04.100 I

02:20:04.780 mean

02:20:04.900 you

02:20:05.300 think

02:20:05.520 about

02:20:05.700 how

02:20:06.140 does

02:20:06.320 the

02:20:06.440 story

02:20:06.700 last

02:20:07.000 10,000

02:20:07.560 years

02:20:07.840 unless

02:20:08.120 it's

02:20:08.380 the

02:20:08.500 kind

02:20:08.700 of

02:20:08.800 story

02:20:09.060 you

02:20:09.260 can

02:20:09.440 remember

02:20:09.960 it

02:20:10.520 doesn't

02:20:11.100 because

02:20:11.420 you

02:20:11.520 forget

02:20:11.820 all

02:20:12.000 the

02:20:12.120 forgettable

02:20:12.540 stuff

02:20:12.940 and

02:20:13.320 all

02:20:13.460 you

02:20:13.580 remember

02:20:13.920 is

02:20:14.080 the

02:20:14.220 memorable

02:20:14.600 stuff

02:20:15.120 and

02:20:15.680 so

02:20:15.840 there's

02:20:16.120 this

02:20:16.380 interplay

02:20:20.340 between

02:20:20.840 the

02:20:21.380 document

02:20:21.800 itself

02:20:22.180 and

02:20:22.440 its

02:20:22.620 audience

02:20:23.140 that

02:20:23.840 shapes

02:20:24.240 the

02:20:24.460 document

02:20:24.960 and

02:20:25.720 so

02:20:25.980 now

02:20:27.280 I

02:20:27.420 don't

02:20:27.560 know

02:20:27.720 how

02:20:27.940 specifically

02:20:28.660 I

02:20:28.920 answered

02:20:29.200 your

02:20:29.420 question

02:20:29.840 we're

02:20:32.100 going

02:20:32.300 to

02:20:32.480 hit

02:20:32.760 the

02:20:33.000 different

02:20:33.320 stories

02:20:33.820 as

02:20:34.520 they

02:20:34.680 come

02:20:34.860 up

02:20:35.040 in

02:20:35.180 sequence

02:20:35.520 and

02:20:35.780 I

02:20:35.920 think

02:20:36.100 I'll

02:20:36.260 shed

02:20:36.500 some

02:20:36.720 more

02:20:36.880 light

02:20:37.120 on

02:20:37.280 the

02:20:37.420 relationship

02:20:37.880 between

02:20:38.260 them

02:20:38.440 doing

02:20:39.460 that

02:20:39.860 and

02:20:40.300 we'll

02:20:40.460 start

02:20:40.700 with

02:20:40.880 that

02:20:41.060 next

02:20:41.320 week

02:20:41.620 okay

02:20:43.100 right

02:20:48.260 so

02:20:48.620 I've

02:20:49.500 been

02:20:49.980 really

02:20:50.280 interested

02:20:50.700 in

02:20:51.040 a

02:20:51.260 lot

02:20:51.360 of

02:20:51.440 the

02:20:51.540 stuff

02:20:51.720 that

02:20:51.860 you've

02:20:52.020 been

02:20:52.120 saying

02:20:52.340 about

02:20:52.560 dreams

02:20:53.060 because

02:20:53.540 I've

02:20:54.540 been

02:20:54.780 lucid

02:20:55.280 dreaming

02:20:55.560 a lot

02:20:55.920 for

02:20:56.120 many

02:20:56.440 years

02:20:56.860 but

02:20:57.240 always

02:20:58.060 in a

02:20:58.340 sort

02:20:58.480 of

02:20:58.600 atheistic

02:20:59.080 way

02:20:59.320 as

02:20:59.440 sort

02:20:59.640 of

02:20:59.720 like

02:20:59.860 a

02:21:00.000 game

02:21:00.400 or

02:21:00.680 something

02:21:00.960 like

02:21:01.200 that

02:21:01.460 but

02:21:02.060 because

02:21:03.780 of

02:21:04.060 seeing

02:21:04.600 your

02:21:04.780 talks

02:21:05.080 and

02:21:05.200 everything

02:21:05.380 I've

02:21:05.560 started

02:21:05.700 to

02:21:05.820 think

02:21:05.960 of it

02:21:06.140 from

02:21:06.320 a

02:21:06.440 different

02:21:06.620 perspective

02:21:07.100 like

02:21:07.380 you're

02:21:07.520 now

02:21:07.780 interfacing

02:21:08.780 with

02:21:09.040 something

02:21:09.480 beyond

02:21:10.040 the

02:21:10.400 narrow

02:21:10.780 scope

02:21:11.740 of

02:21:11.940 your

02:21:12.140 conscious

02:21:12.700 awareness

02:21:13.600 or something

02:21:14.580 like

02:21:14.780 that

02:21:14.960 maybe

02:21:15.200 mythological

02:21:15.780 or

02:21:15.960 something

02:21:16.360 like

02:21:16.600 God

02:21:16.880 and

02:21:17.600 so

02:21:17.940 what

02:21:19.620 I've

02:21:19.780 been

02:21:23.540 in

02:21:24.540 some

02:21:24.780 ways

02:21:25.020 when

02:21:25.220 you're

02:21:25.380 lucid

02:21:25.720 dreaming

02:21:26.040 you're

02:21:26.300 getting

02:21:27.460 beyond

02:21:27.920 the

02:21:28.460 limitations

02:21:28.940 of

02:21:29.220 an

02:21:29.340 ordinary

02:21:29.660 dream

02:21:30.020 you're

02:21:30.180 sort

02:21:30.300 of

02:21:30.620 transcending

02:21:31.920 limitations

02:21:32.500 which

02:21:32.820 maybe

02:21:33.200 is

02:21:34.460 like

02:21:35.160 it's

02:21:35.340 not

02:21:35.520 the

02:21:35.700 purpose

02:21:35.980 of

02:21:36.180 people

02:21:36.540 right

02:21:36.800 because

02:21:37.980 as a

02:21:38.320 person

02:21:38.540 you're

02:21:38.680 supposed

02:21:38.900 to

02:21:39.100 be

02:21:39.240 limited

02:21:39.600 in

02:21:39.840 some

02:21:40.060 way

02:21:40.200 as

02:21:40.340 opposed

02:21:40.560 to

02:21:40.720 God

02:21:41.060 who's

02:21:41.280 not

02:21:41.720 limited

02:21:42.080 and

02:21:42.740 how

02:21:43.060 but

02:21:43.740 on

02:21:43.860 the

02:21:43.960 other

02:21:44.100 hand

02:21:44.300 it's

02:21:44.440 a

02:21:44.540 good

02:21:44.660 opportunity

02:21:45.120 to

02:21:45.400 have

02:21:46.140 control

02:21:46.700 over

02:21:47.140 your

02:21:47.460 interactions

02:21:48.100 with

02:21:48.360 this

02:21:48.540 very

02:21:48.880 special

02:21:49.260 and

02:21:49.440 interesting

02:21:50.000 thing

02:21:50.400 so

02:21:51.100 I guess

02:21:51.980 the

02:21:52.140 conundrum

02:21:52.520 is that

02:21:52.880 on one

02:21:53.200 hand

02:21:53.360 you can

02:21:53.840 control

02:21:54.740 your

02:21:54.960 interactions

02:21:55.500 but

02:21:55.760 on the

02:21:55.940 other

02:21:56.080 hand

02:21:56.260 you

02:21:56.560 are

02:21:56.820 controlling

02:21:57.380 them

02:21:57.680 so

02:21:58.440 I guess

02:21:58.960 I'm

02:21:59.500 wondering

02:21:59.740 what do you

02:22:00.120 think

02:22:00.260 about

02:22:00.440 that

02:22:00.660 and

02:22:00.780 also

02:22:00.980 just

02:22:01.200 in

02:22:01.380 general

02:22:01.620 what do

02:22:01.820 you

02:22:01.900 think

02:22:02.060 about

02:22:02.320 lucid

02:22:02.800 dreaming

02:22:03.060 as a

02:22:03.360 thing

02:22:03.520 like

02:22:03.720 should

02:22:03.980 you

02:22:04.120 do

02:22:04.320 it

02:22:04.480 or

02:22:04.640 I

02:22:04.800 had

02:22:04.980 a

02:22:05.120 client

02:22:05.420 who

02:22:05.600 could

02:22:05.760 really

02:22:05.980 lucid

02:22:06.340 dream

02:22:06.600 you

02:22:06.760 know

02:22:06.900 and

02:22:07.720 one

02:22:07.880 of

02:22:07.980 the

02:22:08.100 things

02:22:08.400 she

02:22:08.920 used

02:22:09.220 them

02:22:18.880 one

02:22:19.000 of

02:22:19.100 the

02:22:19.220 characters

02:22:19.600 told

02:22:20.020 her

02:22:20.260 that

02:22:20.840 she

02:22:21.040 would

02:22:21.240 have

02:22:21.440 to

02:22:21.580 learn

02:22:21.740 to

02:22:21.920 live

02:22:22.100 in

02:22:22.220 a

02:22:22.340 slaughter

02:22:22.640 house

02:22:23.040 she

02:22:23.840 was

02:22:23.980 very

02:22:24.180 afraid

02:22:24.480 of

02:22:24.680 life

02:22:24.980 and

02:22:25.840 one

02:22:26.040 of

02:22:26.120 the

02:22:26.220 consequences

02:22:26.780 of

02:22:27.040 that

02:22:27.260 was

02:22:27.500 that

02:22:27.640 we

02:22:27.760 went

02:22:27.960 and

02:22:28.100 watched

02:22:28.360 an

02:22:28.540 embalming

02:22:29.100 so

02:22:30.380 so

02:22:31.880 the

02:22:32.000 dreams

02:22:32.280 were

02:22:32.460 but

02:22:32.660 one

02:22:32.860 of

02:22:32.940 the

02:22:33.040 things

02:22:33.240 she

02:22:33.400 did

02:22:33.580 she

02:22:33.760 asked

02:22:34.200 the

02:22:34.380 characters

02:22:34.860 what

02:22:35.180 they

02:22:35.360 were

02:22:35.500 up

02:22:35.700 to

02:22:35.920 you

02:22:36.120 know

02:22:36.240 she

02:22:36.420 was

02:22:36.820 instead

02:22:37.100 of

02:22:37.280 controlling

02:22:37.740 she

02:22:37.980 would

02:22:38.140 inquire

02:22:38.700 and

02:22:39.760 so

02:22:39.960 but

02:22:48.880 the

02:22:49.020 research

02:22:49.380 indicates

02:22:49.920 but

02:22:50.760 I

02:22:51.020 think

02:22:51.280 that

02:22:51.480 what

02:22:51.920 we

02:22:52.080 don't

02:22:52.360 know

02:22:52.560 about

02:22:52.840 lucid

02:22:53.200 dreaming

02:22:53.480 could

02:22:53.760 fill

02:22:54.000 a

02:22:54.140 lot

02:22:54.300 of

02:22:54.440 books

02:22:54.840 so

02:22:55.880 I

02:22:56.440 think

02:22:56.680 you

02:22:56.840 do

02:22:57.080 there

02:22:57.280 is

02:22:57.460 some

02:22:57.640 danger

02:22:57.980 in

02:22:58.160 controlling

02:22:58.600 it

02:22:58.780 I

02:22:58.900 think

02:22:59.140 because

02:22:59.460 you

02:22:59.620 lose

02:23:00.060 the

02:23:00.340 spontaneous

02:23:01.000 revelation

02:23:01.780 although

02:23:02.160 not

02:23:02.420 completely

02:23:02.900 because

02:23:03.120 you

02:23:03.240 can't

02:23:03.500 control

02:23:03.820 it

02:23:03.940 completely

02:23:04.360 but

02:23:04.960 I

02:23:05.140 like

02:23:05.440 you

02:23:06.440 see

02:23:06.600 you

02:23:07.020 might

02:23:07.180 be

02:23:07.340 interested

02:23:07.660 in

02:23:07.840 reading

02:23:08.080 Jung's

02:23:08.500 works

02:23:09.020 on

02:23:09.340 active

02:23:09.920 imagination

02:23:10.420 because

02:23:11.520 he

02:23:11.700 kind

02:23:11.960 of

02:23:12.040 learned

02:23:12.220 to

02:23:12.420 dream

02:23:12.880 when

02:23:13.100 he

02:23:13.260 was

02:23:13.460 awake

02:23:13.940 and

02:23:14.800 he

02:23:14.920 spent

02:23:15.220 a

02:23:15.340 lot

02:23:15.500 of

02:23:15.620 time

02:23:15.940 in

02:23:16.380 the

02:23:17.360 world

02:23:17.820 of

02:23:17.980 imagination

02:23:18.480 when

02:23:19.080 he

02:23:19.220 was

02:23:19.400 awake

02:23:19.700 the

02:23:19.900 red

02:23:20.120 books

02:23:20.420 for

02:23:20.620 example

02:23:21.000 the

02:23:21.160 red

02:23:21.320 book

02:23:21.520 is

02:23:21.700 a

02:23:22.280 document

02:23:23.060 of

02:23:23.320 his

02:23:23.500 experiences

02:23:24.120 with

02:23:24.520 awake

02:23:25.120 dreaming

02:23:25.580 but

02:23:26.340 he

02:23:26.480 was

02:23:26.680 very

02:23:26.920 interactive

02:23:27.560 with

02:23:27.940 the

02:23:28.120 dream

02:23:28.400 you

02:23:28.580 know

02:23:28.700 instead

02:23:28.980 of

02:23:29.220 trying

02:23:30.180 to

02:23:30.380 bend

02:23:30.640 it

02:23:30.800 to

02:23:30.980 his

02:23:31.260 whim

02:23:31.820 or

02:23:32.000 his

02:23:32.160 will

02:23:32.480 he

02:23:33.180 was

02:23:33.360 exploring

02:23:34.320 it

02:23:34.580 in

02:23:35.120 some

02:23:35.340 sense

02:23:35.620 like

02:23:35.820 you

02:23:35.920 explore

02:23:36.340 a

02:23:36.540 video

02:23:36.820 game

02:23:37.200 which

02:23:38.360 are

02:23:42.880 with

02:23:43.060 an

02:23:43.220 exploratory

02:23:44.200 purpose

02:23:44.980 in

02:23:45.180 mind

02:23:45.500 you

02:23:46.280 could

02:23:46.420 always

02:23:46.620 ask

02:23:46.900 yourself

02:23:47.260 what

02:23:47.500 you

02:23:47.660 could

02:23:47.840 learn

02:23:48.140 too

02:23:48.360 which

02:23:48.560 is

02:23:48.660 a

02:23:48.780 very

02:23:48.940 dangerous

02:23:49.320 question

02:23:49.760 to

02:23:49.940 ask

02:23:50.140 a

02:23:50.280 dream

02:23:50.540 because

02:23:51.020 sometimes

02:23:51.400 you'll

02:23:51.640 find out

02:23:52.140 what

02:23:52.520 you

02:23:52.660 have

02:23:52.840 to

02:23:52.980 learn

02:23:53.220 that's

02:23:53.740 not

02:23:53.920 so

02:23:54.140 pleasant

02:23:54.560 but

02:23:55.100 it's

02:23:55.280 really

02:23:55.520 worthwhile

02:23:56.120 okay

02:23:57.720 yeah

02:23:58.220 okay so

02:24:02.840 I think

02:24:03.260 I think

02:24:03.720 I'm going

02:24:04.060 to take

02:24:04.380 four more

02:24:05.000 questions

02:24:05.540 only

02:24:05.940 because

02:24:06.300 I'm

02:24:06.660 running

02:24:06.960 out

02:24:07.160 of

02:24:07.320 brain

02:24:07.720 and

02:24:08.380 I

02:24:08.520 don't

02:24:08.660 want

02:24:08.820 to

02:24:08.920 say

02:24:09.100 stupid

02:24:09.520 things

02:24:10.020 or

02:24:10.420 stupider

02:24:10.960 things

02:24:11.280 than

02:24:11.420 I've

02:24:11.580 already

02:24:11.820 said

02:24:12.200 so

02:24:12.500 yeah

02:24:14.440 thank

02:24:14.720 you

02:24:14.800 for

02:24:14.920 the

02:24:15.040 talk

02:24:15.380 in

02:24:16.280 the

02:24:16.380 beginning

02:24:16.580 of

02:24:16.720 your

02:24:16.840 lecture

02:24:17.180 you

02:24:17.380 talked

02:24:17.680 about

02:24:17.900 how

02:24:18.180 society

02:24:18.880 needed

02:24:19.300 this

02:24:19.600 kind

02:24:19.900 of

02:24:20.140 dream

02:24:20.880 like

02:24:21.180 religious

02:24:22.280 base

02:24:22.800 so

02:24:23.160 we

02:24:23.340 don't

02:24:24.040 go

02:24:24.340 between

02:24:24.760 left

02:24:25.020 and

02:24:25.180 right

02:24:25.340 violently

02:24:25.780 and

02:24:26.060 we

02:24:26.180 can

02:24:26.340 kind

02:24:26.520 of

02:24:26.620 have

02:24:26.760 this

02:24:26.960 base

02:24:27.300 and

02:24:27.800 then

02:24:27.920 you

02:24:28.020 also

02:24:28.200 said

02:24:28.460 you

02:24:28.560 admired

02:24:29.040 Nietzsche

02:24:29.400 for

02:24:29.760 kind

02:24:30.060 of

02:24:30.580 chopping

02:24:31.240 down

02:24:31.640 these

02:24:32.020 ideological

02:24:32.960 and

02:24:33.800 kind

02:24:34.020 of

02:24:34.120 dogmatic

02:24:34.560 weeds

02:24:34.940 coming

02:24:35.260 up

02:24:35.440 from

02:24:35.600 the

02:24:35.740 base

02:24:36.040 of

02:24:36.300 Christianity

02:24:37.140 I was

02:24:38.640 wondering

02:24:38.920 how

02:24:39.420 what

02:24:40.440 your

02:24:40.580 thoughts

02:24:40.900 are

02:24:41.100 and

02:24:41.240 how

02:24:41.420 society

02:24:41.880 can

02:24:42.120 have

02:24:42.360 this

02:24:42.540 kind

02:24:42.760 of

02:24:42.880 religious

02:24:43.180 base

02:24:43.600 without

02:24:43.920 having

02:24:44.560 these

02:24:45.440 kind

02:24:45.740 of

02:24:45.840 dangerous

02:24:46.220 ideologies

02:24:46.840 that

02:24:47.080 can

02:24:47.260 spring

02:24:47.580 up

02:24:47.820 once

02:24:48.140 in

02:24:48.260 a

02:24:48.360 while

02:24:48.540 that's

02:24:48.820 what

02:24:48.920 I'm

02:24:49.060 trying

02:24:49.260 to

02:24:49.420 figure

02:24:49.620 out

02:24:49.900 no

02:24:51.260 really

02:24:51.580 I

02:24:51.800 mean

02:24:51.940 that

02:24:52.140 really

02:24:52.420 that's

02:24:52.740 the

02:24:52.900 serious

02:24:53.300 answer

02:24:53.720 to

02:24:53.860 that

02:24:54.020 question

02:24:54.460 you

02:24:55.060 know

02:24:55.140 I

02:24:55.260 mean

02:24:55.440 the

02:24:56.580 reason

02:24:56.880 that

02:24:57.060 I'm

02:24:57.260 an

02:24:57.380 admirer

02:24:57.760 of

02:24:57.880 Nietzsche

02:24:58.160 is

02:24:58.360 because

02:25:05.440 it's

02:25:05.640 that

02:25:05.800 Nietzsche

02:25:06.100 gathered

02:25:06.640 what

02:25:08.080 was

02:25:08.300 in

02:25:08.480 the

02:25:08.640 air

02:25:09.000 and

02:25:09.760 articulated

02:25:10.420 it

02:25:10.900 right

02:25:11.160 incredibly

02:25:12.020 profoundly

02:25:12.640 and so

02:25:13.180 he

02:25:13.840 put

02:25:14.160 his

02:25:14.340 finger

02:25:14.600 on

02:25:14.820 the

02:25:14.980 spot

02:25:15.420 and

02:25:16.000 in

02:25:16.280 that

02:25:16.480 in

02:25:16.700 doing

02:25:16.880 so

02:25:17.100 he

02:25:17.280 announced

02:25:17.760 the

02:25:18.120 problem

02:25:18.660 and

02:25:19.560 once

02:25:19.780 you

02:25:19.920 announce

02:25:20.280 the

02:25:20.520 problem

02:25:20.960 then

02:25:21.300 maybe

02:25:21.580 you

02:25:21.820 can

02:25:21.980 come

02:25:22.160 up

02:25:22.320 with

02:25:22.460 a

02:25:22.580 solution

02:25:22.940 because

02:25:23.180 you

02:25:23.300 can't

02:25:23.620 solve

02:25:23.840 a

02:25:23.960 problem

02:25:24.240 unless

02:25:24.540 you

02:25:24.660 know

02:25:24.780 what

02:25:24.960 it

02:25:25.060 is

02:25:25.300 and

02:25:25.440 the

02:25:25.860 fact

02:25:26.100 that

02:25:26.240 he

02:25:26.340 made

02:25:26.580 it

02:25:26.700 so

02:25:26.900 stark

02:25:27.380 and

02:25:27.580 so

02:25:27.820 clear

02:25:28.740 is

02:25:29.780 horrifying

02:25:30.360 in

02:25:30.640 some

02:25:30.860 sense

02:25:31.220 but

02:25:31.780 at

02:25:32.000 least

02:25:32.280 we

02:25:32.500 know

02:25:32.720 where

02:25:32.900 we

02:25:33.120 stand

02:25:33.620 and

02:25:34.620 so

02:25:34.940 since

02:25:36.260 then

02:25:36.640 I

02:25:37.120 would

02:25:37.300 say

02:25:37.560 particularly

02:25:38.300 with

02:25:38.680 in many

02:25:40.160 ways

02:25:40.380 particularly

02:25:40.820 with

02:25:41.140 the

02:25:41.280 work

02:25:41.480 of

02:25:41.640 Jung

02:25:41.880 and

02:25:42.100 everything

02:25:42.840 that's

02:25:43.240 come

02:25:43.660 out

02:25:43.840 of

02:25:43.940 that

02:25:44.120 which

02:25:44.320 is

02:25:44.420 the

02:25:44.540 deeper

02:25:44.780 study

02:25:45.140 of

02:25:45.320 mythology

02:25:45.980 and

02:25:46.280 its

02:25:46.440 meanings

02:25:46.840 we've

02:25:47.740 been

02:25:47.840 trying

02:25:48.060 to

02:25:48.200 address

02:25:48.540 that

02:25:48.900 the

02:25:49.460 issue

02:25:49.740 that

02:25:49.960 Nietzsche

02:25:50.480 brought

02:25:51.080 up

02:25:51.340 and

02:25:51.480 trying

02:25:51.680 to

02:25:51.840 solve

02:25:52.120 the

02:25:52.320 problem

02:25:52.720 the

02:25:52.960 problem

02:25:53.240 is

02:25:53.380 something

02:25:53.580 like

02:25:53.780 the

02:25:53.920 reunification

02:25:58.740 we're

02:26:00.020 slogging

02:26:00.380 through

02:26:00.600 it

02:26:00.800 man

02:26:01.040 and

02:26:01.240 that's

02:26:01.580 why

02:26:03.440 you're

02:26:03.680 all

02:26:03.840 here

02:26:04.080 at least

02:26:04.420 in

02:26:04.620 part

02:26:04.880 so

02:26:05.160 we'll

02:26:05.380 see

02:26:05.580 how

02:26:05.740 far

02:26:05.920 we

02:26:06.100 can

02:26:06.220 get

02:26:06.500 by

02:26:06.920 at

02:26:07.060 this

02:26:07.240 rate

02:26:07.440 we'll

02:26:07.620 get

02:26:07.760 to

02:26:07.900 like

02:26:08.100 the

02:26:08.320 12th

02:26:08.960 verse

02:26:09.340 in

02:26:09.540 the

02:26:09.700 first

02:26:09.980 but

02:26:11.600 that's

02:26:12.120 the

02:26:12.280 aim

02:26:12.540 you know

02:26:12.900 okay

02:26:13.760 yes

02:26:24.900 they'll

02:26:25.340 be

02:26:25.460 in

02:26:25.660 the

02:26:25.860 video

02:26:27.420 I

02:26:27.900 could

02:26:28.020 also

02:26:28.240 make

02:26:28.480 them

02:26:28.640 available

02:26:29.060 as

02:26:29.900 slides

02:26:30.420 yeah

02:26:34.820 well

02:26:35.300 that's

02:26:35.500 okay

02:26:35.700 I'll

02:26:35.920 return

02:26:36.240 to

02:26:36.420 this

02:26:36.660 when

02:26:36.860 we

02:26:37.040 when

02:26:37.260 we

02:26:37.400 get

02:26:37.540 going

02:26:37.840 again

02:26:38.260 so

02:26:39.040 yeah

02:26:45.760 different

02:26:46.220 colors

02:26:46.540 represent

02:26:47.000 the

02:26:47.300 distance

02:26:47.680 between

02:26:48.120 the

02:26:48.480 between

02:26:49.060 the

02:26:49.800 cross

02:26:52.100 references

02:26:52.580 yeah

02:27:23.420 trinitarian

02:27:24.160 trinitarian

02:27:24.180 ideas

02:27:24.560 trying

02:27:24.940 to

02:27:25.260 get

02:27:26.320 forward

02:27:26.800 the

02:27:27.060 notion

02:27:27.420 that

02:27:27.800 the

02:27:28.300 locus

02:27:28.720 of

02:27:28.920 the

02:27:29.080 divine

02:27:29.520 is

02:27:30.200 it's

02:27:31.360 the

02:27:31.520 same

02:27:31.840 thing

02:27:32.200 in

02:27:32.580 its

02:27:32.740 essence

02:27:33.040 but

02:27:33.260 it

02:27:33.440 exists

02:27:33.940 in

02:27:34.140 a

02:27:34.260 multiplicity

02:27:34.940 it

02:27:35.120 exists

02:27:35.480 as the

02:27:35.880 spirit

02:27:36.180 of

02:27:36.320 tradition

02:27:36.760 it

02:27:37.320 exists

02:27:37.700 as the

02:27:38.180 living

02:27:38.580 individual

02:27:39.780 in

02:27:40.200 time

02:27:40.800 and

02:27:41.000 space

02:27:41.400 and

02:27:41.580 then

02:27:41.760 it

02:27:42.200 exists

02:27:42.660 as

02:27:42.960 the

02:27:43.200 spirit

02:27:43.740 that

02:27:44.400 and

02:27:45.920 his

02:27:46.080 consciousness

02:27:46.560 something

02:27:46.900 like

02:27:47.140 that

02:27:47.320 that

02:27:47.480 we

02:27:47.600 all

02:27:47.800 share

02:27:48.200 which

02:27:48.800 you

02:27:49.340 know

02:27:49.460 Jung

02:27:49.740 would

02:27:49.900 have

02:27:50.020 thought

02:27:50.220 about

02:27:50.420 that

02:27:50.600 as

02:27:50.720 something

02:27:50.940 like

02:27:51.180 the

02:27:51.660 capacity

02:27:52.260 for

02:27:52.780 the

02:27:52.940 individual

02:27:53.360 to

02:27:53.720 realize

02:27:54.520 the

02:27:55.280 tragedy

02:27:56.420 and

02:27:57.040 redemption

02:27:57.500 of

02:27:57.800 Christ

02:27:58.100 in

02:27:58.400 their

02:27:58.600 individual

02:27:59.200 life

02:27:59.800 and

02:28:00.440 that

02:28:00.580 something

02:28:00.920 like

02:28:01.300 your

02:28:01.900 capacity

02:28:02.420 to

02:28:02.860 voluntarily

02:28:03.700 accept

02:28:04.860 the

02:28:05.140 tragic

02:28:05.500 conditions

02:28:06.060 of

02:28:06.300 your

02:28:06.460 existence

02:28:06.940 and

02:28:07.300 to

02:28:07.480 move

02:28:07.740 forward

02:28:08.280 to

02:28:08.760 something

02:28:09.160 resembling

02:28:09.740 paradise

02:28:10.260 regardless

02:28:11.140 of

02:28:11.500 that

02:28:11.820 you

02:28:12.340 know

02:28:12.440 as

02:28:12.580 something

02:28:12.840 that's

02:28:13.100 intrinsic

02:28:13.600 to

02:28:13.960 you

02:28:14.220 and

02:28:14.960 I

02:28:15.160 think

02:28:15.320 that's

02:28:15.620 associated

02:28:16.120 with

02:28:16.380 the

02:28:16.540 idea

02:28:16.780 of

02:28:16.900 the

02:28:17.040 Pentecost

02:28:17.640 and

02:28:17.900 the

02:28:18.860 Holy

02:28:19.100 Spirit

02:28:19.520 all

02:28:19.800 of

02:28:19.940 that

02:28:20.180 it's

02:28:20.500 so

02:28:21.820 that's

02:28:22.480 as

02:28:22.580 good

02:28:22.720 as

02:28:22.840 I

02:28:22.940 can

02:28:23.060 do

02:28:23.200 in

02:28:23.300 a

02:28:23.420 short

02:28:23.620 period

02:28:23.980 of

02:28:24.120 time

02:28:24.420 so

02:28:24.920 yeah

02:28:26.340 I

02:28:42.220 think

02:28:44.560 it's

02:28:44.780 because

02:28:45.140 it's

02:28:45.720 because

02:28:46.160 of

02:28:46.340 the

02:28:46.600 gap

02:28:47.500 between

02:28:47.860 what

02:28:48.100 we

02:28:48.260 articulate

02:28:48.760 and

02:28:49.040 what

02:28:49.200 we

02:28:49.340 don't

02:28:49.600 know

02:28:49.880 something

02:28:50.540 has

02:28:50.780 to

02:28:50.940 fill

02:28:51.180 that

02:28:51.480 gap

02:28:51.960 like

02:28:52.540 I

02:28:52.660 think

02:28:52.860 the

02:28:53.060 law

02:28:53.420 could

02:28:53.700 replace

02:28:55.320 it

02:28:55.600 if

02:28:55.720 the

02:28:55.860 law

02:28:56.080 was

02:28:56.320 total

02:28:56.720 but

02:28:57.160 it

02:28:57.280 isn't

02:28:58.260 it's

02:28:58.800 bounded

02:28:59.840 and

02:29:00.180 incorrect

02:29:00.840 and

02:29:01.220 there's

02:29:01.440 something

02:29:01.780 it

02:29:02.240 rests

02:29:02.680 it

02:29:03.280 has

02:29:03.500 to

02:29:03.680 rest

02:29:03.920 on

02:29:04.100 something

02:29:04.380 inside

02:29:04.900 that's

02:29:05.180 like

02:29:05.340 this

02:29:05.520 mediator

02:29:06.220 between

02:29:06.620 what

02:29:07.140 we

02:29:07.300 articulate

02:29:07.720 and

02:29:08.000 what

02:29:08.120 we

02:29:08.260 don't

02:29:08.460 understand

02:29:08.900 it's

02:29:09.360 something

02:29:09.580 like

02:29:09.840 custom

02:29:10.340 it's

02:29:10.640 something

02:29:10.840 like

02:29:11.040 expectation

02:29:11.960 it's

02:29:12.820 something

02:29:13.000 like

02:29:13.200 the

02:29:13.340 intrinsic

02:29:13.720 sense

02:29:14.220 of

02:29:14.400 justice

02:29:15.080 you

02:29:15.620 know

02:29:15.720 that

02:29:15.920 the

02:29:16.100 law

02:29:16.300 itself

02:29:16.640 is

02:29:16.840 aiming

02:29:21.180 there'd

02:29:21.500 be

02:29:21.580 no

02:29:21.780 grounding

02:29:22.360 like

02:29:22.700 without

02:29:23.740 the

02:29:24.020 body

02:29:24.480 the

02:29:25.320 law

02:29:25.640 would

02:29:25.860 be

02:29:26.000 a

02:29:26.160 dictionary

02:29:26.540 you

02:29:27.720 know

02:29:27.780 and

02:29:27.880 if

02:29:27.980 you

02:29:28.060 don't

02:29:28.180 know

02:29:28.300 what

02:29:28.400 a

02:29:28.500 word

02:29:28.660 means

02:29:29.160 using

02:29:30.280 the

02:29:30.460 dictionary

02:29:30.780 is

02:29:31.060 helpful

02:29:31.340 but

02:29:31.520 not

02:29:31.700 that

02:29:32.000 helpful

02:29:32.420 because

02:29:32.800 like

02:29:33.380 unless

02:29:34.120 you've

02:29:34.320 had

02:29:34.520 the

02:29:34.660 experience

02:29:35.120 of

02:29:35.280 anger

02:29:35.640 the

02:29:36.100 dictionary

02:29:36.400 can't

02:29:36.800 tell

02:29:37.020 you

02:29:37.140 what

02:29:37.300 anger

02:29:37.580 means

02:29:38.000 it

02:29:38.200 just

02:29:38.420 refers

02:29:38.940 to

02:29:39.180 other

02:29:39.400 words

02:29:39.860 but

02:29:40.380 the

02:29:40.520 words

02:29:40.800 themselves

02:29:41.280 refer

02:29:41.720 to

02:29:41.920 something

02:29:42.240 else

02:29:42.640 and

02:29:43.120 the

02:29:43.240 law

02:29:43.700 refers

02:29:44.160 to

02:29:44.400 something

02:29:44.820 else

02:29:45.340 and

02:29:45.840 without

02:29:46.120 that

02:29:46.420 it

02:29:46.660 has

02:29:46.820 to

02:29:46.920 be

02:29:47.100 in

02:29:47.360 tune

02:29:47.640 with

02:29:47.900 that

02:29:48.080 something

02:29:48.420 else

02:29:48.700 and

02:29:48.820 has

02:29:49.000 to

02:29:49.100 be

02:29:49.220 in

02:29:49.320 accordance

02:29:49.720 with

02:29:50.080 it

02:29:50.280 and

02:29:51.100 so

02:29:51.460 I

02:29:51.680 don't

02:29:52.060 think

02:29:52.240 we

02:29:52.380 can

02:29:52.520 ever

02:29:52.920 delineate

02:29:54.160 that

02:29:54.880 proper

02:29:55.600 body

02:29:55.960 of

02:29:56.120 laws

02:29:56.380 and

02:29:56.540 that's

02:29:56.740 also

02:29:57.000 why

02:29:57.260 you

02:29:57.440 like

02:29:58.000 ideological

02:29:58.580 utopias

02:29:59.660 see

02:30:00.220 the

02:30:00.580 ideological

02:30:01.240 utopias

02:30:01.900 dispense

02:30:02.560 with

02:30:02.780 the

02:30:02.920 transcendent

02:30:03.700 they

02:30:04.600 say

02:30:04.960 this

02:30:05.800 is

02:30:06.080 what

02:30:06.340 we

02:30:06.520 need

02:30:06.760 to

02:30:06.920 do

02:30:07.200 it's

02:30:07.440 like

02:30:07.660 no

02:30:08.440 you

02:30:08.720 don't

02:30:08.880 know

02:30:09.160 that's

02:30:09.840 not

02:30:10.040 good

02:30:10.320 you

02:30:10.500 have

02:30:10.720 to

02:30:10.860 leave

02:30:11.100 space

02:30:11.520 for

02:30:11.700 what

02:30:11.940 you

02:30:12.240 kind

02:30:12.560 of

02:30:12.660 know

02:30:12.840 and

02:30:12.960 for

02:30:13.100 what

02:30:13.260 you

02:30:13.400 don't

02:30:13.680 know

02:30:13.940 and

02:30:14.720 I

02:30:15.740 mean

02:30:15.900 you

02:30:16.200 know

02:30:16.380 in

02:30:16.820 the

02:30:16.960 story

02:30:17.180 of

02:30:17.280 the

02:30:17.360 tower

02:30:17.600 of

02:30:17.780 babel

02:30:18.100 human

02:30:18.360 beings

02:30:18.680 make

02:30:18.940 this

02:30:19.160 massive

02:30:19.660 building

02:30:20.680 that's

02:30:20.980 supposed

02:30:21.160 to

02:30:21.360 reach

02:30:21.680 up

02:30:21.980 to

02:30:22.360 the

02:30:22.500 heavens

02:30:22.860 so

02:30:23.120 that

02:30:23.260 it'll

02:30:23.420 take

02:30:23.620 the

02:30:23.760 place

02:30:24.020 of

02:30:24.180 God

02:30:24.560 well

02:30:25.220 that's

02:30:25.440 that's

02:30:25.740 the

02:30:25.860 earliest

02:30:26.240 warning

02:30:26.800 we

02:30:27.160 have

02:30:27.840 of

02:30:28.160 the

02:30:29.040 danger

02:30:29.480 of

02:30:29.700 making

02:30:30.080 things

02:30:30.500 so

02:30:30.900 big

02:30:31.360 that

02:30:31.600 you

02:30:31.780 confuse

02:30:32.340 them

02:30:40.320 something

02:30:40.620 a

02:30:41.120 totality

02:30:41.780 is

02:30:42.520 that

02:30:42.680 it

02:30:42.820 starts

02:30:43.080 to

02:30:43.280 fragment

02:30:43.680 inside

02:30:44.220 and

02:30:44.660 disintegrates

02:30:45.720 into

02:30:45.920 catastrophe

02:30:46.600 and

02:30:46.920 so

02:30:47.420 it's

02:30:47.800 almost

02:30:48.060 as

02:30:48.300 we

02:30:48.520 have

02:30:48.760 to

02:30:48.940 maintain

02:30:49.460 this

02:30:49.860 articulated

02:30:50.660 space

02:30:51.340 inside

02:30:51.880 the

02:30:52.100 dream

02:30:52.440 inside

02:30:52.840 the

02:30:53.060 custom

02:30:53.460 something

02:30:54.160 like

02:30:54.460 that

02:30:54.720 because

02:30:54.960 otherwise

02:30:55.200 it

02:30:55.400 doesn't

02:30:55.640 work

02:30:56.020 and

02:30:56.540 I

02:30:56.640 think

02:30:56.780 that's

02:30:57.000 the

02:30:57.120 same

02:30:57.320 as

02:30:57.440 having

02:30:57.680 respect

02:30:58.100 for

02:30:58.360 the

02:30:58.500 fact

02:30:58.720 that

02:30:58.860 we

02:30:58.980 have

02:30:59.180 bodies

02:30:59.760 you

02:31:00.420 know

02:31:00.480 we're

02:31:00.600 not

02:31:00.780 just

02:31:01.020 abstract

02:31:01.520 creatures

02:31:02.140 that

02:31:02.380 follow

02:31:02.740 rules

02:31:03.260 we're

02:31:03.900 not

02:31:04.060 that

02:31:04.280 at

02:31:04.400 all

02:31:04.700 we

02:31:05.360 only

02:31:05.560 follow

02:31:05.880 certain

02:31:06.520 rules

02:31:07.000 we

02:31:08.000 won't

02:31:08.220 follow

02:31:08.560 the

02:31:08.740 other

02:31:08.920 ones

02:31:09.220 and

02:31:09.700 our

02:31:09.860 societies

02:31:10.320 will

02:31:10.520 crumble

02:31:10.880 and

02:31:11.700 so

02:31:11.960 and

02:31:12.820 we

02:31:12.920 just

02:31:13.240 don't

02:31:13.460 know

02:31:13.660 enough

02:31:13.880 to

02:31:14.040 articulate

02:31:14.560 the

02:31:14.840 entire

02:31:15.160 landscape

02:31:15.760 of

02:31:16.720 behavior

02:31:17.240 with

02:31:17.780 articulated

02:31:18.380 rules

02:31:18.900 not

02:31:19.260 at

02:31:19.380 all

02:31:19.600 we

02:31:20.120 can't

02:31:20.380 do

02:31:20.520 it

02:31:20.640 it's

02:31:20.820 beyond

02:31:21.120 us

02:31:21.480 yeah

02:31:22.820 yeah

02:31:23.280 thanks

02:31:30.460 for

02:31:30.620 the

02:31:30.720 talk

02:31:31.040 my

02:31:31.800 question

02:31:32.060 is

02:31:32.200 also

02:31:32.400 about

02:31:32.640 dreams

02:31:33.180 you

02:31:33.560 spoke

02:31:33.820 about

02:31:34.080 dreams

02:31:34.580 as

02:31:35.080 like

02:31:36.140 a

02:31:36.260 representation

02:31:36.700 of

02:31:37.340 truths

02:31:38.320 and

02:31:38.540 universal

02:31:39.020 truths

02:31:39.480 that

02:31:39.800 can

02:31:41.380 be

02:31:41.540 interpreted

02:31:41.920 into

02:31:42.400 like

02:31:42.920 myths

02:31:43.300 and

02:31:43.720 religion

02:31:44.500 and

02:31:45.700 as

02:31:46.680 you

02:31:47.360 say

02:31:47.760 it's

02:31:48.440 very

02:31:48.720 beneficial

02:31:49.140 for

02:31:49.500 the

02:31:49.700 individual

02:31:50.120 and

02:31:50.340 it

02:31:50.480 sounds

02:31:50.680 like

02:31:50.920 also

02:31:51.200 for

02:31:51.520 the

02:31:52.280 society

02:31:52.840 as

02:31:53.100 well

02:31:53.260 because

02:31:53.700 not

02:31:54.280 everyone

02:31:54.680 can

02:31:55.600 as

02:31:55.860 easily

02:31:56.320 remember

02:31:59.860 their

02:32:00.080 dreams

02:32:00.460 or

02:32:00.840 interpret

02:32:01.260 their

02:32:01.860 dreams

02:32:02.220 like

02:32:02.400 that

02:32:02.660 and

02:32:03.440 also

02:32:03.720 it's

02:32:04.540 broadcasted

02:32:06.520 to

02:32:06.780 all of

02:32:07.420 society

02:32:07.800 for their

02:32:08.180 benefits

02:32:08.520 so

02:32:08.860 I guess

02:32:09.500 I'm

02:32:10.000 wondering

02:32:10.400 what

02:32:10.820 the

02:32:11.440 evolutionary

02:32:11.960 advantage

02:32:13.100 of

02:32:13.380 dreams

02:32:13.900 are

02:32:14.120 and

02:32:14.260 my

02:32:14.760 question

02:32:15.080 would

02:32:15.260 be

02:32:15.480 do you

02:32:16.200 think

02:32:16.340 that

02:32:16.560 dreams

02:32:17.220 suggest

02:32:19.980 some

02:32:20.400 sort

02:32:20.660 of

02:32:21.120 evolutionary

02:32:22.200 group

02:32:23.100 selection

02:32:23.640 such as

02:32:24.160 groups that

02:32:24.920 don't

02:32:25.360 have

02:32:26.040 these

02:32:26.260 dreams

02:32:26.560 that are

02:32:26.840 represented

02:32:27.240 into

02:32:27.580 myths

02:32:27.880 and

02:32:28.060 religion

02:32:28.380 do you

02:32:28.840 think

02:32:29.020 they

02:32:29.320 didn't

02:32:30.160 survive

02:32:30.540 as

02:32:30.760 well

02:32:31.020 okay

02:32:31.820 so

02:32:32.120 I'm

02:32:32.540 not

02:32:32.720 going

02:32:32.860 to

02:32:32.940 answer

02:32:33.160 the

02:32:33.360 second

02:32:33.620 part

02:32:33.880 of

02:32:33.940 that

02:32:34.080 question

02:32:34.460 because

02:32:34.880 I'd

02:32:35.780 have

02:32:35.940 to

02:32:36.080 go

02:32:36.320 far

02:32:36.840 too

02:32:37.020 far

02:32:37.300 off

02:32:37.540 on a

02:32:37.760 tangent

02:32:38.080 for

02:32:38.700 me

02:32:38.820 to

02:32:38.940 manage

02:32:39.220 right

02:32:39.420 now

02:32:39.540 but

02:32:39.680 I

02:32:39.760 can

02:32:39.880 answer

02:32:40.100 the

02:32:40.280 first

02:32:40.520 part

02:32:40.860 I mean

02:32:41.800 what

02:32:42.060 happens

02:32:42.400 when

02:32:42.580 you're

02:32:42.760 dreaming

02:32:43.060 there's

02:32:43.340 a

02:32:43.440 little

02:32:43.580 switch

02:32:44.100 so

02:32:44.540 to

02:32:44.680 speak

02:32:44.960 in

02:32:45.120 your

02:32:45.280 brain

02:32:45.560 that

02:32:45.740 shuts

02:32:46.020 off

02:32:46.340 when

02:32:46.500 you're

02:32:46.620 dreaming

02:32:46.860 and

02:32:47.020 it

02:32:47.120 stops

02:32:47.360 you

02:32:47.520 from

02:32:47.700 moving

02:32:48.040 right

02:32:48.780 it

02:32:48.940 shuts

02:32:49.220 everything

02:32:49.640 off

02:32:49.980 except

02:32:50.300 your

02:32:50.540 eyes

02:32:50.920 because

02:32:51.320 if you're

02:32:52.460 moving

02:32:52.660 your

02:32:52.780 eyes

02:32:52.960 back

02:32:53.200 and

02:32:53.300 forth

02:32:53.440 you're

02:32:53.560 not

02:32:53.680 going

02:32:53.780 to

02:32:53.820 get

02:32:53.940 run

02:32:54.160 around

02:32:54.440 and

02:32:54.620 get

02:32:55.000 eaten

02:32:55.140 by

02:32:55.300 a

02:32:55.440 lion

02:32:55.700 it's

02:32:56.040 okay

02:32:56.300 to

02:32:56.460 move

02:32:56.620 your

02:32:56.760 eyes

02:32:57.040 but

02:32:57.540 the

02:32:57.640 rest

02:32:57.860 of

02:32:57.960 you

02:32:58.080 is

02:32:58.200 staying

02:32:58.440 exactly

02:32:58.900 where

02:32:59.120 it

02:32:59.240 is

02:32:59.440 then

02:32:59.940 you

02:33:00.060 can

02:33:00.160 run

02:33:00.340 these

02:33:00.540 simulations

02:33:01.160 and

02:33:02.340 so

02:33:02.480 what's

02:33:02.720 happening

02:33:03.080 at

02:33:03.260 night

02:33:03.500 and

02:33:03.720 this

02:33:04.260 is

02:33:04.380 a

02:33:04.480 fairly

02:33:04.720 well

02:33:05.100 accepted

02:33:05.900 theory

02:33:06.540 of

02:33:06.780 dreaming

02:33:07.100 we

02:33:07.300 know

02:33:07.460 that

02:33:07.620 dreams

02:33:07.900 update

02:33:08.300 memories

02:33:08.760 and

02:33:08.940 help

02:33:09.140 consolidate

02:33:09.620 memories

02:33:10.060 they

02:33:10.200 also

02:33:10.420 help

02:33:10.700 you

02:33:10.840 forget

02:33:11.300 but

02:33:12.220 what

02:33:12.820 seems

02:33:13.060 to be

02:33:13.340 happening

02:33:13.640 at

02:33:13.820 night

02:33:14.020 is

02:33:14.200 that

02:33:14.400 you're

02:33:14.700 running

02:33:15.620 the

02:33:15.940 underlying

02:33:16.520 architecture

02:33:17.240 of your

02:33:17.680 cognitive

02:33:18.180 ability

02:33:18.740 in

02:33:19.320 different

02:33:19.620 simulations

02:33:20.360 and it's

02:33:21.900 cost-free

02:33:22.500 because

02:33:22.860 you're

02:33:23.140 paralyzed

02:33:23.940 you're not

02:33:24.320 running

02:33:24.580 around

02:33:24.780 there

02:33:24.920 out

02:33:25.060 in

02:33:25.160 the

02:33:25.260 world

02:33:25.540 investigating

02:33:26.580 so

02:33:26.940 it's

02:33:27.440 part

02:33:27.700 of

02:33:27.860 the

02:33:28.060 manner

02:33:28.900 in

02:33:29.160 which

02:33:29.360 your

02:33:29.560 brain

02:33:30.100 experiments

02:33:31.060 with

02:33:31.400 the

02:33:31.560 way

02:33:31.740 the

02:33:31.920 world

02:33:32.160 can

02:33:32.360 be

02:33:32.520 represented

02:33:33.180 and

02:33:34.160 so

02:33:34.440 and

02:33:35.400 it

02:33:35.560 seems

02:33:35.860 absolutely

02:33:36.360 necessary

02:33:37.060 and

02:33:37.540 I

02:33:38.080 mean

02:33:38.200 if

02:33:38.360 you

02:33:38.480 deprive

02:33:38.860 people

02:33:39.160 of

02:33:39.320 REM sleep

02:33:39.820 they

02:33:40.440 don't

02:33:41.060 stay

02:33:41.300 sane

02:33:41.640 very

02:33:41.920 long

02:33:42.260 there's

02:33:42.740 something

02:33:42.980 necessary

02:33:43.600 about

02:33:43.940 the

02:33:44.120 dreaming

02:33:44.380 process

02:33:44.880 to

02:33:45.180 maintenance

02:33:45.660 of

02:33:46.040 articulated

02:33:48.900 sanity

02:33:49.600 so

02:33:50.600 you're

02:33:51.400 doing

02:33:51.540 some

02:33:51.800 kind

02:33:52.020 of

02:33:52.120 organization

02:33:52.540 at

02:33:52.940 night

02:33:53.100 when

02:33:53.280 you

02:33:53.400 descend

02:33:53.780 into

02:33:54.000 that

02:33:54.240 chaos

02:33:54.660 and

02:33:54.940 partly

02:33:55.540 what

02:33:55.740 seems

02:33:55.960 to

02:33:56.120 happen

02:33:56.380 is

02:33:56.580 that

02:33:56.720 your

02:33:56.880 categories

02:33:57.580 have

02:33:59.860 boundaries

02:34:00.340 right

02:34:00.920 but

02:34:01.140 sometimes

02:34:01.540 you

02:34:01.740 don't

02:34:01.900 have

02:34:02.060 the

02:34:02.200 categories

02:34:02.620 correct

02:34:03.140 and

02:34:03.940 so

02:34:04.060 the

02:34:04.200 boundaries

02:34:04.540 have

02:34:04.820 to

02:34:05.000 loosen

02:34:05.340 and

02:34:06.360 be

02:34:06.500 put

02:34:06.700 in

02:34:06.800 the

02:34:06.920 categories

02:34:07.380 or

02:34:07.560 some

02:34:07.820 things

02:34:08.100 shunted

02:34:08.540 away

02:34:08.940 and

02:34:09.640 in

02:34:09.760 the

02:34:09.880 dream

02:34:10.100 the

02:34:10.300 category

02:34:10.680 structure

02:34:11.180 loosens

02:34:11.680 which

02:34:11.920 is

02:34:12.040 why

02:34:12.260 dreams

02:34:12.740 are

02:34:12.880 so

02:34:13.060 peculiar

02:34:13.840 but

02:34:14.660 they're

02:34:14.880 experimenting

02:34:15.740 it's

02:34:16.360 your

02:34:16.480 mind

02:34:16.780 is

02:34:16.920 experimenting

02:34:17.480 with

02:34:17.880 the

02:34:18.100 underlying

02:34:18.600 categorical

02:34:19.920 structure

02:34:20.360 of

02:34:20.540 imagination

02:34:21.040 and

02:34:21.840 trying

02:34:22.040 to

02:34:22.240 update

02:34:22.800 your

02:34:23.220 your

02:34:24.420 mode

02:34:24.880 of

02:34:25.040 being

02:34:25.280 in

02:34:25.440 the

02:34:25.540 world

02:34:25.820 dreams

02:34:26.460 often

02:34:26.900 concentrate

02:34:27.440 on

02:34:27.740 things

02:34:28.060 that

02:34:28.240 provoke

02:34:28.620 anxiety

02:34:29.180 so

02:34:29.440 if

02:34:29.560 you

02:34:29.660 wake

02:34:29.840 people

02:34:30.120 up

02:34:30.280 when

02:34:30.400 they're

02:34:30.540 dreaming

02:34:30.780 the

02:34:30.960 most

02:34:31.160 commonly

02:34:36.360 of

02:34:36.620 the

02:34:36.920 attempt

02:34:37.540 to

02:34:37.820 contend

02:34:38.360 with

02:34:38.580 the

02:34:38.780 unknown

02:34:39.220 and

02:34:39.840 so

02:34:39.960 the

02:34:40.100 dream

02:34:40.320 is

02:34:40.480 half

02:34:40.860 unknown

02:34:41.320 and

02:34:41.560 half

02:34:41.900 known

02:34:42.280 which

02:34:42.720 is

02:34:42.840 also

02:34:43.100 why

02:34:43.400 it's

02:34:43.660 so

02:34:44.160 peculiar

02:34:44.660 you know

02:34:45.080 because

02:34:45.240 you

02:34:45.380 kind of

02:34:45.720 understand

02:34:46.120 it

02:34:46.280 but

02:34:46.400 you

02:34:46.520 don't

02:34:46.840 really

02:34:47.140 and

02:34:47.700 it

02:34:48.040 partakes

02:34:48.900 of

02:34:49.080 the

02:34:49.220 unknown

02:34:49.580 and

02:34:49.940 of

02:34:50.100 the

02:34:50.260 known

02:34:50.560 and

02:34:51.080 it's

02:34:51.240 the

02:34:51.420 bridge

02:34:51.720 between

02:34:52.120 the

02:34:52.320 two

02:34:52.540 something

02:34:52.880 like

02:34:53.160 that

02:34:53.520 so

02:34:54.200 um

02:35:03.460 okay

02:35:03.780 so

02:35:04.080 my

02:35:04.340 question

02:35:04.700 is

02:35:04.900 kind

02:35:05.040 of

02:35:05.160 two

02:35:05.420 parts

02:35:05.740 the

02:35:06.180 first

02:35:06.400 one

02:35:06.560 is

02:35:06.660 just

02:35:06.840 like

02:35:07.040 a

02:35:07.240 general

02:35:07.540 question

02:35:08.040 and

02:35:08.240 then

02:35:08.380 just

02:35:08.580 the

02:35:08.720 application

02:35:09.200 of

02:35:09.440 the

02:35:09.560 question

02:35:09.900 so

02:35:10.420 my

02:35:10.560 first

02:35:10.780 question

02:35:11.080 is

02:35:11.280 do

02:35:11.700 you

02:35:11.820 think

02:35:12.040 that

02:35:12.240 consciousness

02:35:12.780 and

02:35:13.200 beinghood

02:35:13.860 are

02:35:14.340 inextricably

02:35:15.780 linked

02:35:16.180 and

02:35:16.760 then

02:35:16.940 secondly

02:35:17.480 so

02:35:18.220 if there

02:35:18.560 was

02:35:18.680 something

02:35:18.920 like

02:35:19.220 a

02:35:19.760 supercomputer

02:35:20.220 that

02:35:20.560 one

02:35:20.700 could

02:35:20.880 house

02:35:21.280 theoretically

02:35:22.200 a

02:35:22.420 perfect

02:35:22.780 brain

02:35:23.120 of

02:35:23.220 a

02:35:23.360 person

02:35:23.640 in

02:35:23.860 it

02:35:24.020 does

02:35:24.520 that

02:35:24.740 thing

02:35:24.980 then

02:35:25.260 become

02:35:25.780 the

02:35:26.000 same

02:35:26.220 person

02:35:26.680 as

02:35:27.340 the

02:35:27.500 person

02:35:27.780 who

02:35:27.920 was

02:35:28.040 before

02:35:28.420 so

02:35:29.020 is

02:35:29.180 there

02:35:29.280 a

02:35:29.420 transcendency

02:35:30.200 to

02:35:30.620 beinghood

02:35:31.400 but

02:35:31.560 not

02:35:31.740 to

02:35:31.900 consciousness

02:35:32.340 okay

02:35:32.620 so

02:35:32.840 the

02:35:33.020 first

02:35:33.280 question

02:35:33.680 is

02:35:33.920 well

02:35:34.180 I

02:35:34.420 would

02:35:34.600 say

02:35:34.800 that

02:35:34.980 the

02:35:35.120 kind

02:35:35.420 of

02:35:35.600 being

02:35:35.920 that

02:35:36.160 these

02:35:36.420 stories

02:35:36.780 are

02:35:36.960 concerned

02:35:37.400 with

02:35:37.740 is

02:35:38.220 absolutely

02:35:38.700 dependent

02:35:39.220 on

02:35:39.480 consciousness

02:35:39.980 now

02:35:40.880 whether

02:35:41.100 or not

02:35:41.340 that

02:35:41.540 means

02:35:41.800 that

02:35:42.000 being

02:35:42.320 as

02:35:42.540 such

02:35:42.880 is

02:35:43.060 dependent

02:35:43.380 on

02:35:43.600 consciousness

02:35:44.040 actually

02:35:44.540 depends

02:35:44.980 on

02:35:45.120 how

02:35:45.240 you

02:35:45.420 define

02:35:45.760 being

02:35:46.180 right

02:35:47.080 so

02:35:47.200 it's

02:35:47.360 always

02:35:47.560 tricky

02:35:47.880 when

02:35:48.080 you

02:35:48.240 ask

02:35:48.580 an

02:35:48.740 if

02:35:49.140 is

02:35:49.600 a

02:35:49.960 an

02:35:50.760 example

02:35:52.480 of

02:35:52.740 be

02:35:52.980 those

02:35:53.480 are

02:35:53.580 tricky

02:35:53.800 questions

02:35:54.240 because

02:35:54.520 it

02:35:54.680 depends

02:35:54.980 on

02:35:55.120 how

02:35:55.220 you

02:35:55.360 define

02:35:55.720 the

02:35:55.900 two

02:35:56.120 but

02:35:56.620 for

02:35:56.820 our

02:35:57.100 purposes

02:35:57.640 the

02:35:58.340 being

02:35:58.680 that

02:35:58.900 we're

02:35:59.120 discussing

02:35:59.600 that's

02:35:59.940 represented

02:36:00.420 in

02:36:00.700 these

02:36:00.900 stories

02:36:01.320 is

02:36:01.800 intrinsically

02:36:02.560 associated

02:36:03.200 with

02:36:03.440 conscious

02:36:03.820 experience

02:36:04.500 and

02:36:05.180 consciousness

02:36:05.660 is

02:36:05.980 given

02:36:06.440 this

02:36:07.280 constitutive

02:36:09.460 role

02:36:10.100 it says

02:36:10.800 that

02:36:11.020 the

02:36:11.260 experience

02:36:11.720 that

02:36:11.860 we're

02:36:11.980 talking

02:36:12.280 about

02:36:12.480 would

02:36:12.660 not

02:36:12.860 exist

02:36:13.200 if

02:36:13.380 consciousness

02:36:13.840 did

02:36:14.180 not

02:36:14.380 exist

02:36:14.780 so

02:36:15.580 you

02:36:15.780 can

02:36:15.880 think

02:36:16.060 about

02:36:16.260 it

02:36:16.360 as

02:36:16.500 a

02:36:16.600 kind

02:36:16.820 of

02:36:16.940 game

02:36:17.340 in

02:36:17.480 a

02:36:17.580 way

02:36:17.800 and

02:36:18.020 then

02:36:18.160 you

02:36:18.280 have

02:36:18.420 to

02:36:23.800 so

02:36:30.440 two

02:36:30.840 part

02:36:30.980 question

02:36:31.260 first

02:36:31.500 one

02:36:31.660 is

02:36:31.740 very

02:36:31.900 quick

02:36:32.140 almost

02:36:32.400 admin

02:36:32.720 if

02:36:33.380 we

02:36:33.480 want

02:36:33.640 to

02:36:33.780 read

02:36:34.040 the

02:36:34.200 biblical

02:36:34.440 stories

02:36:35.020 that

02:36:35.380 kind

02:36:35.580 of

02:36:35.660 you

02:36:35.740 referring

02:36:36.040 to

02:36:36.180 as

02:36:36.300 a

02:36:36.400 particular

02:36:36.700 version

02:36:37.040 edition

02:36:37.380 source

02:36:37.720 publisher

02:36:38.140 we

02:36:38.620 should

02:36:38.760 refer

02:36:38.940 to

02:36:39.080 I'll

02:36:39.400 bring

02:36:39.700 the

02:36:40.040 thing

02:36:40.440 I

02:36:40.600 like

02:36:40.860 next

02:36:41.160 week

02:36:41.460 which

02:36:41.740 is

02:36:41.900 I

02:36:42.220 think

02:36:42.660 the

02:36:42.820 Reader's

02:36:43.180 Digest

02:36:43.620 published

02:36:44.020 it

02:36:44.180 of

02:36:44.280 all

02:36:44.460 things

02:36:44.760 but

02:36:45.000 it

02:36:45.740 lays

02:36:48.940 out

02:36:49.160 the

02:36:49.340 narratives

02:36:49.740 in

02:36:50.180 a

02:36:50.300 different

02:36:50.520 format

02:36:50.900 it

02:36:51.060 I

02:36:51.380 find

02:36:51.640 it

02:36:51.740 much

02:36:51.900 easier

02:36:52.160 to

02:36:52.340 read

02:36:52.600 so

02:36:53.080 I'll

02:36:53.220 show

02:36:53.400 it

02:36:53.520 to

02:36:53.560 you

02:36:53.680 and

02:36:53.800 I'll

02:36:54.000 bring

02:36:54.160 it

02:36:54.260 next

02:36:54.440 time

02:36:54.640 and

02:36:54.740 show

02:36:54.900 it

02:36:55.000 to

02:36:55.080 you

02:36:55.280 one

02:36:57.660 of

02:36:57.760 the

02:36:57.840 main

02:36:57.960 reasons

02:36:58.200 why

02:36:58.360 I'm

02:36:58.480 interested

02:36:58.680 in

02:36:58.800 so

02:36:58.920 much

02:36:59.080 of

02:36:59.180 your

02:36:59.240 work

02:36:59.420 and

02:36:59.580 you

02:37:01.300 kind

02:37:01.480 of

02:37:01.560 leave

02:37:01.740 literalism

02:37:02.200 at

02:37:02.340 the

02:37:02.440 door

02:37:02.640 and

02:37:02.780 you

02:37:02.860 open

02:37:03.060 up

02:37:03.180 another

02:37:03.380 door

02:37:03.600 to

02:37:03.860 much

02:37:04.420 deeper

02:37:04.820 meaning

02:37:05.120 in

02:37:05.820 your

02:37:06.000 interview

02:37:06.300 with

02:37:06.520 transliminal

02:37:07.100 media

02:37:07.400 you

02:37:07.600 mentioned

02:37:07.940 Liz

02:37:08.180 Eibel's

02:37:08.560 book

02:37:08.800 The

02:37:09.820 serpent

02:37:10.180 the tree

02:37:11.120 and vision

02:37:12.580 and you

02:37:13.300 note

02:37:13.500 that

02:37:22.160 and

02:37:23.340 that

02:37:23.480 it

02:37:23.600 co-evolved

02:37:24.220 and

02:37:24.540 you

02:37:24.680 summarized

02:37:25.160 thusly

02:37:25.760 by saying

02:37:26.180 the following

02:37:26.560 I'm paraphrasing

02:37:27.560 you

02:37:27.720 you say

02:37:27.960 what gives

02:37:28.320 you

02:37:28.420 vision

02:37:28.700 snakes

02:37:29.080 do

02:37:29.300 that's

02:37:29.900 what

02:37:30.000 it

02:37:30.080 says

02:37:30.220 in

02:37:30.360 Genesis

02:37:30.680 what

02:37:31.400 else

02:37:31.560 gives

02:37:31.740 you

02:37:31.840 vision

02:37:32.100 fruit

02:37:32.420 that's

02:37:32.780 also

02:37:32.980 right

02:37:33.260 that's

02:37:33.860 why

02:37:33.960 we

02:37:34.100 have

02:37:34.240 color

02:37:34.440 vision

02:37:34.760 what

02:37:35.000 makes

02:37:35.220 you

02:37:35.320 self

02:37:35.460 conscious

02:37:35.740 if you

02:37:35.940 are

02:37:36.000 a

02:37:36.020 man

02:37:36.300 woman

02:37:37.120 that's

02:37:37.460 Eve

02:37:37.600 and

02:37:38.120 so

02:37:38.300 I

02:37:38.620 understand

02:37:38.960 at

02:37:39.120 the

02:37:39.220 elementary

02:37:39.540 level

02:37:39.820 some

02:37:40.000 of

02:37:40.080 the

02:37:40.140 concepts

02:37:40.440 that

02:37:40.620 you

02:37:40.680 have

02:37:40.800 about

02:37:41.040 representations

02:37:41.840 dreams

02:37:42.240 abstractions

02:37:42.780 etc

02:37:43.080 but

02:37:43.700 kind of

02:37:44.080 raises

02:37:44.280 the

02:37:44.420 question

02:37:44.660 for

02:37:44.880 me

02:37:45.100 you

02:37:46.020 know

02:37:46.100 I'm not

02:37:46.340 accusing you

02:37:46.720 of any

02:37:46.900 creationism

02:37:47.600 or literalism

02:37:48.160 you know

02:37:48.900 what's your

02:37:49.300 point

02:37:49.540 why did

02:37:49.960 you make

02:37:50.320 that

02:37:50.500 connection

02:37:50.900 what's

02:37:51.320 the

02:37:51.480 meaning

02:37:51.760 of

02:37:51.920 the

02:37:52.040 story

02:37:52.300 of

02:37:52.460 Genesis

02:37:52.780 vis-a-vis

02:37:53.860 Liz Ibo's

02:37:54.900 book

02:37:55.180 no problem

02:37:55.960 we're

02:37:56.240 gonna

02:37:56.480 as soon

02:37:57.960 as I

02:37:58.220 get past

02:37:58.740 this

02:37:58.980 first

02:37:59.440 Genesis

02:38:00.480 one

02:38:00.920 we're

02:38:01.160 gonna

02:38:01.340 hit

02:38:02.020 that

02:38:02.320 hard

02:38:02.740 so

02:38:03.620 so

02:38:04.780 well

02:38:06.960 partly

02:38:07.960 yes

02:38:15.780 I'm

02:38:16.060 suggesting

02:38:16.500 that it

02:38:16.860 foreshadowed

02:38:17.600 it

02:38:17.780 and

02:38:18.480 and

02:38:18.740 I

02:38:18.940 think

02:38:19.160 they're

02:38:19.380 the

02:38:19.540 same

02:38:19.760 thing

02:38:20.000 I

02:38:20.100 mean

02:38:20.240 Isbel

02:38:20.620 in her

02:38:20.880 books

02:38:21.100 plays

02:38:21.620 with

02:38:21.860 that

02:38:22.080 idea

02:38:22.420 metaphorically

02:38:23.140 but

02:38:23.300 she

02:38:23.440 never

02:38:23.720 really

02:38:24.340 takes

02:38:24.620 it

02:38:24.760 seriously

02:38:25.100 which

02:38:25.360 is

02:38:25.520 no

02:38:25.700 problem

02:38:26.060 I

02:38:26.240 mean

02:38:26.360 there's

02:38:26.580 only

02:38:26.740 so

02:38:26.900 much

02:38:27.040 you

02:38:27.180 can

02:38:27.300 take

02:38:27.480 seriously

02:38:27.860 and

02:38:28.100 she

02:38:28.280 did

02:38:28.460 a

02:38:28.560 fine

02:38:28.760 job

02:38:29.040 of

02:38:29.180 what

02:38:29.340 she

02:38:29.460 did

02:38:29.740 but

02:38:30.280 I'll

02:38:30.480 talk

02:38:30.700 about

02:38:30.900 that

02:38:31.100 a

02:38:31.240 lot

02:38:31.500 because

02:38:31.780 that's

02:38:32.220 a

02:38:32.320 very

02:38:32.520 complicated

02:38:33.120 issue

02:38:33.600 I

02:38:34.180 mean

02:38:37.960 you

02:38:38.220 use

02:38:38.620 to

02:38:38.840 deal

02:38:39.100 with

02:38:39.320 radical

02:38:39.780 uncertainty

02:38:40.380 are

02:38:40.640 the

02:38:40.800 same

02:38:41.040 systems

02:38:41.520 that

02:38:41.720 your

02:38:41.880 primate

02:38:42.360 ancestors

02:38:42.900 evolved

02:38:43.380 to

02:38:43.560 deal

02:38:43.740 with

02:38:43.940 snakes

02:38:44.380 that's

02:38:45.300 a

02:38:45.400 good

02:38:45.540 start

02:38:46.080 so

02:38:46.940 okay

02:38:47.620 okay

02:38:48.600 one more

02:38:49.260 and then

02:38:49.500 we're

02:38:49.640 done

02:38:49.900 I'm an

02:38:54.480 aerospace

02:38:54.820 science

02:38:55.440 engineer

02:38:55.840 and an

02:38:56.220 expert

02:38:56.520 computer

02:38:57.000 programmer

02:38:57.480 and I

02:38:57.720 have

02:38:57.840 three

02:38:58.020 rapid

02:38:58.380 fire

02:38:58.640 questions

02:38:59.080 so

02:38:59.260 I

02:38:59.340 need

02:38:59.440 to

02:38:59.500 get

02:38:59.640 through

02:38:59.780 them

02:38:59.940 quick

02:39:00.300 based

02:39:01.440 on

02:39:01.640 your

02:39:01.840 opinion

02:39:02.380 of

02:39:02.820 where

02:39:03.120 the

02:39:03.340 universities

02:39:03.860 now

02:39:04.140 stand

02:39:04.500 in terms

02:39:04.920 of

02:39:05.040 humanities

02:39:05.500 and

02:39:05.740 social

02:39:06.080 sciences

02:39:06.580 is

02:39:08.220 mathematics

02:39:08.720 more

02:39:09.240 powerful

02:39:09.780 than

02:39:10.040 articulated

02:39:10.620 speech

02:39:11.380 I'm

02:39:15.160 not

02:39:15.360 sure

02:39:15.660 I'm

02:39:15.940 not

02:39:16.080 exactly

02:39:16.440 sure

02:39:16.700 how

02:39:16.840 the

02:39:17.000 first

02:39:17.180 oh

02:39:22.620 well

02:39:23.460 it

02:39:23.920 depends

02:39:24.240 on

02:39:24.400 what

02:39:24.540 you

02:39:24.700 mean

02:39:24.900 by

02:39:25.100 power

02:39:25.620 I

02:39:26.260 guess

02:39:26.600 I

02:39:27.100 mean

02:39:27.320 obviously

02:39:28.020 studying

02:39:28.440 mathematics

02:39:29.040 and

02:39:29.480 computer

02:39:29.800 science

02:39:30.120 makes

02:39:30.380 you

02:39:30.520 insanely

02:39:30.980 powerful

02:39:31.500 the

02:39:31.720 question

02:39:32.040 is

02:39:32.300 to

02:39:32.480 what

02:39:32.700 end

02:39:32.980 and

02:39:33.680 I

02:39:33.860 don't

02:39:34.080 think

02:39:34.280 that

02:39:34.440 you

02:39:34.580 can

02:39:34.740 extract

02:39:35.200 an

02:39:35.360 answer

02:39:35.640 to

02:39:36.080 that

02:39:36.360 from

02:39:36.720 the

02:39:36.940 study

02:39:37.200 of

02:39:37.340 mathematics

02:39:37.880 the

02:39:38.120 humanities

02:39:38.600 are

02:39:38.840 there

02:39:38.960 to

02:39:39.100 ground

02:39:39.420 people

02:39:39.840 in

02:39:40.080 proper

02:39:40.480 citizenhood

02:39:41.380 that's

02:39:42.140 that's

02:39:42.420 a way

02:39:42.640 of

02:39:42.760 thinking

02:39:42.980 about

02:39:43.280 it

02:39:43.440 and

02:39:43.560 so

02:39:43.800 yes

02:39:44.400 it

02:39:44.560 makes

02:39:44.780 you

02:39:44.920 powerful

02:39:45.260 but

02:39:45.480 then

02:39:45.660 the

02:39:45.800 question

02:39:46.080 is

02:39:46.300 who

02:39:46.620 has

02:39:47.140 the

02:39:47.320 power

02:39:47.740 because

02:39:48.620 it

02:39:48.740 might

02:39:48.940 not

02:39:49.160 be

02:39:49.380 you

02:39:49.640 it

02:39:50.160 might

02:39:50.320 be

02:39:50.460 the

02:39:50.620 mathematics

02:39:51.220 so to

02:39:52.060 speak

02:39:52.480 you know

02:39:53.020 because

02:39:53.180 you never

02:39:53.520 know

02:39:53.700 what

02:39:53.900 you're

02:39:54.100 an

02:39:54.220 agent

02:39:54.520 of

02:39:54.960 precisely

02:39:55.920 and

02:39:56.740 so

02:39:56.960 yeah

02:39:58.580 well

02:39:58.820 look

02:39:59.040 I've

02:39:59.240 got

02:39:59.400 nothing

02:39:59.640 against

02:39:59.940 computer

02:40:06.360 yes

02:40:06.860 and it

02:40:07.120 has

02:40:07.300 to

02:40:07.420 be

02:40:07.540 a

02:40:07.660 tool

02:40:07.820 of

02:40:10.080 something

02:40:10.640 and what

02:40:11.240 the

02:40:11.360 humanities

02:40:11.840 were

02:40:12.120 for

02:40:12.380 was

02:40:13.060 to

02:40:13.260 tell

02:40:13.520 people

02:40:13.920 what

02:40:14.240 the

02:40:14.740 tools

02:40:15.060 should

02:40:15.300 be

02:40:15.480 used

02:40:15.860 for

02:40:16.220 and

02:40:16.740 so

02:40:16.900 the

02:40:17.260 tools

02:40:17.560 themselves

02:40:17.960 are

02:40:18.200 crazily

02:40:19.240 powerful

02:40:19.760 but

02:40:20.200 that's

02:40:20.500 not

02:40:21.080 necessarily

02:40:21.660 you

02:40:22.420 know

02:40:22.600 an

02:40:23.500 untrammeled

02:40:24.260 good

02:40:24.620 so

02:40:25.380 I

02:40:26.260 have

02:40:26.500 to

02:40:26.660 stop

02:40:27.060 because

02:40:27.620 okay

02:40:29.140 quick

02:40:29.500 okay

02:40:31.500 okay

02:40:32.500 you were

02:40:34.940 in

02:40:35.140 this

02:40:35.400 I

02:40:35.660 guess

02:40:35.840 one

02:40:36.120 room

02:40:36.420 in

02:40:36.540 a

02:40:36.660 museum

02:40:37.020 in

02:40:37.240 New

02:40:37.400 York

02:40:37.660 where

02:40:37.880 you

02:40:37.900 have

02:40:38.020 seen

02:40:38.200 some

02:40:38.400 original

02:40:38.920 renaissance

02:40:39.420 artwork

02:40:40.020 masterpieces

02:40:40.940 these

02:40:41.460 are

02:40:41.640 generally

02:40:42.260 accepted

02:40:42.760 as

02:40:43.060 amazing

02:40:43.920 artifacts

02:40:44.880 okay

02:40:45.240 does

02:40:50.080 an

02:40:50.580 original

02:40:51.180 work

02:40:51.600 of

02:40:51.760 art

02:40:52.060 as

02:40:52.580 opposed

02:40:52.980 to

02:40:53.180 a

02:40:53.340 high

02:40:53.580 fidelity

02:40:54.040 reproduction

02:40:54.920 contain

02:40:55.920 the

02:40:56.200 spirit

02:40:56.640 of

02:40:56.940 the

02:40:57.080 artist

02:40:57.400 who

02:40:57.620 created

02:40:58.000 it

02:40:58.240 and

02:40:58.440 does

02:40:58.680 this

02:40:58.960 account

02:40:59.380 for

02:40:59.640 the

02:40:59.820 disparity

02:41:00.360 and

02:41:00.620 how

02:41:00.780 much

02:41:01.000 you

02:41:01.100 have

02:41:01.300 to

02:41:01.420 pay

02:41:01.700 for

02:41:01.900 an

02:41:02.040 original

02:41:02.300 it

02:41:02.400 does

02:41:02.680 in

02:41:02.860 part

02:41:03.140 I

02:41:03.440 knew

02:41:03.660 a

02:41:03.780 good

02:41:03.940 portrait

02:41:05.840 one

02:41:06.600 of

02:41:06.680 the

02:41:06.780 things

02:41:06.980 he

02:41:07.140 pointed

02:41:07.440 out

02:41:07.680 about

02:41:07.880 a

02:41:08.020 great

02:41:08.220 portrait

02:41:08.580 is

02:41:08.820 that

02:41:09.000 it

02:41:09.120 actually

02:41:09.480 contains

02:41:10.020 time

02:41:10.480 so

02:41:11.600 you

02:41:11.800 know

02:41:11.920 because

02:41:12.260 a

02:41:12.500 photograph

02:41:12.780 is

02:41:13.080 one

02:41:13.300 instant

02:41:13.720 but

02:41:14.660 a

02:41:14.800 portrait

02:41:15.360 is

02:41:15.640 you

02:41:16.060 layered

02:41:16.700 on

02:41:17.020 you

02:41:17.300 layered

02:41:17.720 on

02:41:18.060 you

02:41:18.300 so

02:41:18.640 it's

02:41:18.820 got

02:41:18.960 a

02:41:19.120 thickness

02:41:19.600 you

02:41:20.360 know

02:41:20.460 and

02:41:20.600 I

02:41:20.820 think

02:41:21.020 you

02:41:21.180 can

02:41:21.340 see

02:41:21.640 that

02:41:21.880 thickness

02:41:22.280 in

02:41:22.560 the

02:41:22.700 original

02:41:23.120 but

02:41:23.620 it's

02:41:23.760 also

02:41:23.980 a

02:41:24.180 direct

02:41:24.560 manifestation

02:41:25.240 of

02:41:25.680 that

02:41:25.860 creative

02:41:26.300 act

02:41:26.620 of

02:41:26.760 perception

02:41:27.300 and

02:41:27.940 I

02:41:28.060 don't

02:41:28.300 think

02:41:28.520 you

02:41:28.640 get

02:41:35.840 painting

02:41:35.920 doesn't

02:41:36.280 end

02:41:36.540 with

02:41:36.740 the

02:41:36.920 frame

02:41:37.320 you

02:41:37.940 know

02:41:38.040 like

02:41:38.220 we

02:41:38.360 tend

02:41:38.560 to

02:41:38.680 think

02:41:38.880 of

02:41:38.980 the

02:41:39.100 painting

02:41:39.460 itself

02:41:39.920 as

02:41:40.160 the

02:41:40.300 object

02:41:40.680 but

02:41:40.940 but

02:41:41.800 most

02:41:42.320 objects

02:41:42.760 are

02:41:43.080 densely

02:41:44.440 innervated

02:41:45.360 with

02:41:45.640 historical

02:41:46.620 context

02:41:47.260 and

02:41:48.180 you

02:41:48.300 can

02:41:48.440 say

02:41:48.620 well

02:41:48.800 the

02:41:48.940 historical

02:41:49.380 context

02:41:49.920 isn't

02:41:50.280 the

02:41:50.440 object

02:41:50.780 but

02:41:51.060 it

02:41:51.160 depends

02:41:51.480 on

02:41:51.640 what

02:41:51.780 you

02:41:51.960 mean

02:41:52.140 by

02:41:52.320 the

02:41:52.500 object

02:41:52.860 and

02:41:53.540 often

02:41:53.840 people

02:41:54.220 when

02:41:54.400 they

02:41:54.540 buy

02:41:54.720 a

02:41:54.860 piece

02:41:55.060 of

02:41:55.200 a

02:41:55.500 painting

02:41:55.780 are

02:41:56.000 buying

02:41:56.340 the

02:41:56.780 historical

02:41:57.340 context

02:41:57.860 and

02:41:58.300 you

02:41:58.620 just

02:41:58.800 don't

02:41:59.060 get

02:42:05.840 well

02:42:06.820 you

02:42:06.920 want

02:42:07.060 to

02:42:07.100 have

02:42:07.260 Elvis's

02:42:07.780 guitar

02:42:08.140 that's

02:42:08.480 why

02:42:08.840 you

02:42:09.200 can't

02:42:09.480 tell

02:42:09.780 it's

02:42:10.020 Elvis's

02:42:10.600 guitar

02:42:10.900 by

02:42:11.160 looking

02:42:11.500 at

02:42:11.740 it

02:42:11.860 well

02:42:21.160 it

02:42:21.440 is

02:42:21.880 at

02:42:22.160 the

02:42:22.280 level

02:42:22.500 of

02:42:22.660 detail

02:42:22.940 but

02:42:23.160 not

02:42:23.360 at

02:42:23.480 the

02:42:23.580 level

02:42:23.780 of

02:42:23.940 context

02:42:24.440 that's

02:42:25.040 how

02:42:25.140 it

02:42:25.260 looks

02:42:25.420 to

02:42:25.580 me

02:42:25.760 okay

02:42:26.300 we

02:42:26.500 gotta

02:42:26.700 go

02:42:27.040 thank

02:42:30.640 you

02:42:35.840 thank

02:42:38.800 you

02:42:38.940 for

02:42:39.100 listening

02:42:39.380 to

02:42:39.620 the

02:42:39.780 Jordan

02:42:40.040 B.

02:42:40.380 Peterson

02:42:40.620 podcast

02:42:41.420 to

02:42:44.100 support

02:42:44.400 these

02:42:44.660 podcasts

02:42:45.280 you

02:42:45.540 can

02:42:45.660 donate

02:42:45.880 to

02:42:46.060 Dr.

02:42:46.440 Peterson's

02:42:46.960 Patreon

02:42:47.360 account

02:42:47.880 the

02:42:48.400 link

02:42:48.560 to

02:42:48.720 which

02:42:48.900 can

02:42:49.080 be

02:42:49.220 found

02:42:49.480 in

02:42:49.640 the

02:42:49.760 description

02:42:50.160 of

02:42:50.420 this

02:42:50.600 episode

02:42:51.020 Dr.

02:42:53.920 Peterson's

02:42:54.540 self-development

02:42:55.500 programs

02:42:56.160 can be

02:42:56.760 found

02:42:57.000 at

02:42:57.220 self-authoring

02:42:58.060 dot com

02:42:58.740 thank

02:43:00.400 you

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - May 23, 2017

Introduction to the Idea of God

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