The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - April 20, 2018


Lafayette College - The Mill Series


Episode Stats

Length

4 hours and 24 minutes

Words per Minute

161.78482

Word Count

42,736

Sentence Count

1,089

Misogynist Sentences

33

Hate Speech Sentences

106


Summary

Dr. Jordan Peterson has created a new series that could be a lifeline for those battling depression and anxiety. We know how isolating and overwhelming these conditions can be, and we wanted to take a moment to reach out to those listening who may be struggling. With decades of experience helping patients, Dr. Peterson offers a unique understanding of why you might be feeling this way. In his new series, he provides a roadmap towards healing, showing that while the journey isn t easy, it s absolutely possible to find your way forward. If you're suffering, please know you are not alone. There's hope, and there's a path to feeling better. Go to Dailywire Plus now and start watching Dr. Jordan B. Peterson on Depression and Anxiety: A Guide to Feeling Better. During the Q&A session, you are handed a microphone directly into the microphone, so you can speak directly into it. So, without further ado, join me in Lafayette County, OH! Join me in welcoming me in Jordan Peterson to Lafayette County. This is being recorded online for non-commercial, non-profit purposes, and will be published online for your Non-commercial purposes. You can support these podcasts by donating to Dr. B.P. Peterson s "Podcast" - the link to which can be found in the description of the event can be located here. You can also become a supporter of the podcast by clicking the link below. Thanks for supporting the podcast, and let me know what you think of this podcast is working for you. I'm looking forward to hearing from you. me. Thank you so much love and support the podcast. - P.S. . - J. J.B. Dr. P. Peterson is a core, I hope you like it! JBP JB. Peterson. J. Peterson is a great humanist, J. B Peterson - . J. V. Peterson, & J. M. Peterson - A. S. is a good friend of mine and J. E. B., J. SORRY FOR THE PODCASTING - E. W. WOULD YOU? (J. VY. (A. M., A. R. POTTER, R. WELCOME TO ME? (TAYLOR M. WALTER, A. D. DORDS, COURSES)


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Oh, Maya. Maya. She loves being cool.
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00:00:30.000 Hey, everyone. Real quick before you skip,
00:00:33.700 I want to talk to you about something serious and important.
00:00:36.660 Dr. Jordan Peterson has created a new series that could be a lifeline
00:00:40.280 for those battling depression and anxiety.
00:00:42.920 We know how isolating and overwhelming these conditions can be,
00:00:46.280 and we wanted to take a moment to reach out to those listening who may be struggling.
00:00:50.280 With decades of experience helping patients,
00:00:52.480 Dr. Peterson offers a unique understanding of why you might be feeling this way in his new series.
00:00:58.140 He provides a roadmap towards healing.
00:01:00.000 Showing that while the journey isn't easy,
00:01:02.340 it's absolutely possible to find your way forward.
00:01:05.480 If you're suffering, please know you are not alone.
00:01:08.680 There's hope, and there's a path to feeling better.
00:01:11.960 Go to Daily Wire Plus now and start watching Dr. Jordan B. Peterson
00:01:15.560 on depression and anxiety.
00:01:17.640 Let this be the first step towards the brighter future you deserve.
00:01:21.220 Welcome to the Jordan B. Peterson podcast.
00:01:29.960 You can support these podcasts by donating to Dr. Peterson's Patreon,
00:01:33.920 the link to which can be found in the description.
00:01:37.000 Dr. Peterson's self-development programs, self-authoring, can be found at selfauthoring.com.
00:01:42.180 Thank you all for coming.
00:01:57.640 I'm going to begin by introducing Jordan Peterson,
00:02:03.360 and then I will talk a little bit about how this event is going to work,
00:02:07.740 and then we'll get underway.
00:02:08.740 So Jordan Peterson has been called, quote,
00:02:11.200 one of the most important thinkers to emerge on the world stage for many years by The Spectator.
00:02:16.600 He has been a dishwasher, gas jockey, bartender, short order cook, beekeeper,
00:02:21.520 oil derrick, bit re-tipper, plywood mill laborer, and railway line worker.
00:02:26.460 He's taught mythology to lawyers, doctors, and businessmen,
00:02:30.360 consulted for the U.N. Secretary General's high-level panel on sustainable development,
00:02:35.260 helped his clinical clients manage depression, obsessive compulsive disorder, anxiety, and schizophrenia,
00:02:41.180 served as an advisor to senior partners of major law firms,
00:02:44.880 identified thousands of promising entrepreneurs on six different continents,
00:02:48.780 and lectured extensively in North America and Europe.
00:02:51.780 He has flown a hammerhead role in a carbon fiber stunt plane,
00:02:55.260 piloted a mahogany racing sailboat around Alcatraz Island,
00:02:59.860 explored an Arizona meteorite crater with a group of astronauts,
00:03:03.920 built a Native American longhouse on the upper floor of his Toronto home,
00:03:08.060 and been inducted into the coastal Pacific Kwakwaka'wak tribe.
00:03:12.100 Malcolm Gladwell discussed psychology with him while researching his books.
00:03:18.160 Norman Doidge is a good friend and collaborator.
00:03:21.140 Thriller writer Greg Hurwitz employed several of his, quote,
00:03:24.420 valuable things as a plot feature in his number one international bestseller, Orphan X,
00:03:29.620 and he worked with Jim Balsilli, former RIM CEO, on a project for the U.N. Secretary General.
00:03:36.720 With his students and colleagues, Dr. Peterson has published more than 100 scientific papers,
00:03:41.680 transforming the modern understanding of personality,
00:03:44.620 and revolutionized the psychology of religion with his now classic book,
00:03:48.840 Maps of Meaning, the Architecture of Belief.
00:03:51.600 As a Harvard professor, he was nominated for the prestigious Levinson Teaching Prize,
00:03:55.680 and is regarded by his current University of Toronto students as one of three truly life-changing teachers.
00:04:02.640 Dr. Peterson is a core, most-viewed writer in values and principles and parenting and education.
00:04:08.220 He has innumerable Twitter followers and Facebook followers.
00:04:12.220 His YouTube channel now has about a million subscribers.
00:04:15.920 And his classroom lectures on mythology were turned into a popular 13-part TV series on TV Ontario.
00:04:22.780 Dr. Peterson's online self-help program, the self-authoring suite,
00:04:27.480 has been featured in O! The Oprah Magazine, on CBC Radio, and on NPR's national website.
00:04:33.800 It has helped over 150,000 people resolve the problems of their past and radically improve their future.
00:04:40.100 Without further ado, please join me in welcoming Dr. Jordan Peterson to Lafayette County.
00:04:44.820 So the way this is going to work is that I'm going to have a conversation with Dr. Peterson for 90 minutes,
00:05:00.920 and then there is going to be a 90-minute Q&A.
00:05:03.980 This event is being video recorded and will be published online for non-commercial, non-advertising purposes.
00:05:09.940 During the Q&A session, when you are handed a microphone, please speak directly into it.
00:05:16.220 Our viewers on YouTube will appreciate it.
00:05:18.680 And finally, I am a moderator between Professor Peterson and the audience,
00:05:23.120 but also a biased participant in this conversation.
00:05:26.740 Okay.
00:05:28.360 Well, it's a relief that's all over.
00:05:32.700 Okay, so I thought we would start things off with this.
00:05:37.520 I assume that many in the audience are curious but relatively unfamiliar with you
00:05:42.680 or have heard a lot about you without ever reading or listening to you.
00:05:46.800 So I thought we might start with you introducing yourself to the audience
00:05:50.640 and maybe telling them some of the main things that you think they might be interested in knowing about you.
00:05:56.460 Well, I guess the most relevant detail is that I spent about 15 years writing this
00:06:15.880 and I worked on it about three hours a day, every day during that period of time.
00:06:26.440 At the same time, I was finishing off my doctorate and I started lecturing at Harvard,
00:06:32.180 but I was doing that continually and thinking about it continually
00:06:36.960 and reading the material that I needed to read in order to write the book continually as well.
00:06:43.580 And I didn't realize until more recently that what I was doing
00:06:49.560 was at the heart of the postmodern conundrum, I would say.
00:06:54.760 I was very much obsessed by the events of the Cold War for reasons I don't exactly understand.
00:07:03.260 I had a lot of dreams about nuclear annihilation for years on end.
00:07:07.600 I mean, it wasn't that uncommon to be obsessed by that when I grew up.
00:07:11.240 I mean, because it was a preoccupation of everyone who was my age, I suppose.
00:07:16.180 There were lots of years, probably between 1962, I would say, probably in 1985,
00:07:22.440 where people were pretty convinced that the probability of a nuclear war was high,
00:07:28.560 much higher than people consider now.
00:07:34.600 And I was curious about this.
00:07:37.060 I was curious about why everyone wasn't obsessed about this all the time, first of all,
00:07:40.700 because it seemed like the fundamental issue that two armed camps were pointing
00:07:45.580 something in excess of 25,000 hydrogen bombs each at each other.
00:07:51.040 I couldn't understand how anybody could concentrate on anything other than that,
00:07:55.340 since it seemed so utterly insane.
00:07:59.720 And I was curious.
00:08:03.680 What was going on exactly?
00:08:07.480 Was this...
00:08:08.600 One explanation was that there's a very large number of ways that human beings could organize themselves in society,
00:08:14.380 like, a large number of games that we could hypothetically play,
00:08:17.420 and they're all equally arbitrary in an equally arbitrary universe,
00:08:21.460 and that the communists had decided to play one kind of game,
00:08:24.940 and the Western free market democratic types had decided to play another game,
00:08:31.180 and it was all arbitrary in some sense.
00:08:33.140 And so that's what I was trying to figure out, was
00:08:37.080 what the hell was going on with this conflict?
00:08:40.380 And was it merely a battle between two hypothetically equally valid interpretations of the world
00:08:47.180 drawn from a set of extraordinarily large potential interpretations,
00:08:51.740 which I think would be essentially a postmodernist take on it.
00:08:55.080 And I think I went into the problem neutrally in that I didn't think I knew what the answer was.
00:09:04.080 You know, so lots of times when you talk to people who think or when you talk to people who write,
00:09:09.180 they have an idea and it's right, and then they write whatever they're writing to justify the idea.
00:09:13.980 That's how they look at it.
00:09:15.280 But it's not a good way to write.
00:09:16.920 A good way to write and think is to have a problem, and then try to solve it, right?
00:09:22.680 To actually solve it, not to demonstrate that your a priori commitment is true.
00:09:27.480 And, you know, one of the signs I would say that my a priori commitments weren't the purpose for the writing,
00:09:35.820 was that I walked away from that 15-year project with a view of the world that was completely different
00:09:42.520 than the view that I had going in and learned all sorts of things,
00:09:46.860 especially about the role of narrative and religious thinking in life that I had no idea was possible when I started.
00:09:57.080 And a lot of that was a consequence of reading the great people who I read deeply.
00:10:01.580 You know, I read, well, all the great works of Friedrich Nietzsche and the great works of Dostoevsky and Tolstoy
00:10:10.080 and most of Jung's collected works, everything that had been published up to that point,
00:10:14.320 and a very large swath of the relevant clinical literature, the great clinicians of the 20th century,
00:10:20.740 and a huge stack of neuroscience and etc., etc., because I was reading constantly during this time.
00:10:26.420 And I realized some things that I think are true.
00:10:32.480 The communists were wrong.
00:10:35.340 They weren't, and not just a little bit wrong, and not wrong in some arbitrary way.
00:10:39.240 They were playing a game that human beings cannot play without descending into a murderous catastrophe.
00:10:46.100 And there's something about what we've done in the West that's correct.
00:10:50.540 And it's complicated because our cognitive structures, that's one way of thinking about it, or our socio-political arrangements,
00:10:59.400 they actually parallel one another in an important way, are grounded in a strange set of axioms.
00:11:09.400 And the axioms aren't rational precisely, it's more like their narrative, their narrative axioms, their stories.
00:11:17.260 And the story of the West is that the individual is sovereign over the group, and that that's the solution to tribalism.
00:11:24.260 And I think that's the correct solution.
00:11:27.120 Now, what that means metaphysically, because it's also embedded in our religious doctrines, right?
00:11:33.120 Because, especially in Christianity, although not exclusively to Christianity, the individual is sovereign.
00:11:39.120 The suffering individual is sovereign.
00:11:41.120 And there's something about that that's true at least psychologically.
00:11:45.120 And I don't know what that might mean metaphysically, because who the hell knows what anything means metaphysically, right?
00:11:52.280 I mean, your knowledge runs out at some point.
00:11:55.980 Anyways, I worked all these ideas out, and then I taught for a long time courses that were based on the ideas.
00:12:02.720 And the courses were very impactful, I would say.
00:12:05.820 They had the same impact on the people that I was teaching as walking through the material had on me.
00:12:11.820 And, well, it was out of that that all this political controversy arose.
00:12:18.380 I mean, I was never focused on political controversy, even though I'm interested in politics, and I thought at many points in my life about a political career.
00:12:29.480 I always put it aside for a psychological and philosophical career, I would say.
00:12:35.120 And, but things started to shift badly in Canada over the last five years.
00:12:41.680 And our government dared to implement legislation that compelled speech.
00:12:47.680 And one of the things that I had learned when I was doing all this background investigation was that there isn't a higher value than free speech.
00:12:55.680 It isn't free speech, it's not the right way of thinking about it, because it's free thought.
00:13:00.240 And even that's not the right way of thinking about it, because thought is the precursor to action and life.
00:13:06.640 So there's no difference between free speech and free life.
00:13:10.240 And I was just not willing to put up with restrictions on my free life.
00:13:16.240 And so I made some videos pointing out the pathology of this doctrine and the fact that the government had radically overreached its appropriate limits.
00:13:27.200 And, well then, you know, well, and maybe you don't know, but I've been enveloped in continual scandal since for 18 months as a consequence.
00:13:37.680 Which to me, as a clinician, indicates that I got my damn diagnosis right.
00:13:43.440 Right? It's not about pronouns.
00:13:45.840 It's about something a lot deeper than that.
00:13:49.440 And I stand by that. I believe that it's the case.
00:13:52.320 And I don't think that we would all be here tonight if that wasn't the situation.
00:13:55.920 So.
00:13:56.880 So I wanted my first or my next question to be about Lafayette.
00:14:05.600 And so I thought I would read a couple of Facebook posts that certain students who are critical of you read in the lead up to this event and just ask you to respond to them.
00:14:16.400 Okay.
00:14:17.360 So this is a student writing,
00:14:20.160 Lafayette College, I am utterly disappointed that you're allowing this to take place on our campus.
00:14:24.960 I thought we went through this last semester with Roaming Millennial.
00:14:28.880 Inviting hateful speakers who make wildly unsubstantiated claims is not going to fly with the student body.
00:14:35.040 I get it. The Mill Series events are private and not endorsed by the college.
00:14:39.280 But you absolutely have the power to make a statement on this.
00:14:42.720 The fact that you're not is an embarrassment to our community.
00:14:45.840 If you believe this man is a legitimate source of knowledge because he has a degree in clinical psychology,
00:14:52.560 feel free to ask our psychology department faculty and counseling center staff about the validity of his claims.
00:14:59.120 I'm certain they would not endorse this speaker.
00:15:01.920 Do better in all caps.
00:15:04.800 For those of you unfamiliar, Jordan Peterson is known for denouncing the Me Too movement,
00:15:10.240 claiming that women are in no way marginalized in the West,
00:15:14.080 arguing against the existence of gender neutral pronouns,
00:15:17.760 arguing against gun control in the US,
00:15:20.480 and claiming that identity politics and social justice movements are part of a devious Marxist agenda.
00:15:27.040 And then another student responded, and this is briefer.
00:15:30.000 College conservatives know that if they bring in a speaker who is willing to blatantly insult a portion of the audience,
00:15:36.560 and the libs get angry enough about this for good reason,
00:15:40.080 then they may get an op-ed written about them in the New York Times.
00:15:43.600 As a result, there are a whole group of hacks, like Milo and Peterson,
00:15:48.240 who get famous and invited purely for their promise to misgender trans students
00:15:53.600 and advocate provocative but ultimately toothless arguments about social Darwinist race theory.
00:16:00.160 What I'm saying is that you have every right to be pissed.
00:16:02.720 Jordan Peterson is a harmful moron,
00:16:05.120 but know that you being pissed is also 100% at the point of why he was invited.
00:16:12.640 He's not a conservative.
00:16:14.000 He's just a guy who's mildly racist enough to offend college liberals,
00:16:18.880 and therefore secure wins for the cultural right.
00:16:27.120 Comparatively mild stuff.
00:16:28.720 It's the chattering buzz of ideologically possessed demons.
00:16:36.000 So there's nothing in it that's not entirely predictable.
00:16:40.880 That's one of the things you notice when you're talking to people.
00:16:44.240 If you want to find out whether the person is there or the ideology is there,
00:16:48.880 you listen to see if you're hearing anything that someone else of the same ideological mindset
00:16:55.680 couldn't have told you.
00:16:56.400 You know, like I've had thousands of conversations with people because I've spent 20 years as a clinical psychologist.
00:17:02.400 And one of the things I've learned about people is that they're unbelievably interesting.
00:17:06.560 If you get someone to sit down and you move past the superficial, which you can actually do quite rapidly,
00:17:13.920 they'll tell you all sorts of things that only they know that are unbelievably enlightening
00:17:19.680 about their own peculiar problems, about the way they look at the world, about their idiosyncratic familial dynamics.
00:17:27.600 Like, just fascinating personal stuff.
00:17:30.080 It's the stuff of great novels, you know, and just, and this is ordinary people.
00:17:35.200 I don't really think there is an ordinary person, exactly.
00:17:38.400 There's the facade of ordinariness, but behind that people are very rarely ordinary.
00:17:44.000 And so the conversations are almost instantaneously fascinating.
00:17:48.160 And one of the guidelines that I used in my clinical practice constantly was, like I had this sense,
00:17:54.160 I probably learned this mostly from Carl Rogers, was that if the conversation wasn't really interesting,
00:18:00.240 then we weren't doing anything that was therapeutically useful.
00:18:03.520 But the interesting, all of the interesting elements of it were very, very personal.
00:18:09.040 And so to replace this, and I learned this mostly from Alexander Solzhenitsyn in his detailed analysis of
00:18:15.600 what I would call ideological possession, he talked about people he met in the Gulag camps,
00:18:21.840 who were under the sway of rigid communist orthodoxy, and noted very clearly that
00:18:28.880 it was like there was a crank, in some sense, on the side of their head.
00:18:31.680 And you could just crank the crank, and out would come the ideological dogma.
00:18:37.200 And it's all entirely predictable, and people who are in a situation like that don't understand
00:18:42.080 that they're possessed by an idea, right?
00:18:44.400 Carl Jung said, people don't have ideas, ideas have people.
00:18:48.240 And it's like, so there's nothing in that that's anything other than exactly what you would predict.
00:18:54.880 And then there's a deeper issue too, and this is one that I think has bedeviled me ever since I
00:18:59.840 made my initial videos, which is it's impossible for those on the radical left to admit that anyone
00:19:08.080 who opposes what they're doing might be reasonable. Because what that would mean would be that you
00:19:13.440 could be reasonable and oppose the radical left, and that would imply that what the radical left was
00:19:18.240 doing wasn't reasonable. And so instead of dealing with the fact that I actually happen to be quite
00:19:23.760 reasonable, the attempt is to assume that anyone who objects must be part of the radical right.
00:19:31.840 It's like, well, actually, no. There's lots of space between the radical left and the radical right.
00:19:38.960 There's the moderate reasonable left, for example, and then there's the center, and then there's the
00:19:44.480 moderate reasonable right, and then there's the far right, and then there's the extreme right.
00:19:48.640 All of that exists in opposition to the radical left, but it's very convenient for the radicals
00:19:53.520 on the left to say, oh, well, you don't buy our doctrine, and then to immediately make the
00:20:00.800 presupposition that you must be the most highness example of that entire array of potential objections.
00:20:07.120 It's like, yeah, well, whatever, you know. It's just not a viable stance. And so,
00:20:13.680 but it's convenient, and it's a bad thing because it drives polarization, and that's a bad thing.
00:20:22.960 But it also, it doesn't address the issue. So one of the things that I've been thinking about deeply
00:20:29.600 over the last couple of weeks and plan to write about, here's a mystery for all of you.
00:20:33.600 I don't care what your political background is, and it isn't like I'm anti-left.
00:20:37.840 I've made videos documenting this. I know why there's a left wing. There's a left wing because
00:20:44.240 inequality is a problem. It's a way worse problem than the radical leftists like to admit,
00:20:49.440 because you can't lay it at the feet of capitalism and the free market. Inequality is a way worse
00:20:54.320 problem than that, but it's definitely a problem. And because inequality is a problem, you need part
00:20:59.280 of the political structure to speak up for the people who end up arrayed at the bottom of hierarchies.
00:21:05.360 It's crucial. Someone has to speak for them. That's the place of the left.
00:21:10.480 But then consider this. So we can state that. The right speaks for hierarchy and the left
00:21:17.040 speaks on behalf of those who are oppressed by inequality. Good. We need that dialogue.
00:21:22.240 The radical left. Okay. We know from 20th century history that things can go too far on the right.
00:21:29.760 No one disputes that. And that things can go too far on the left. And we also know that when
00:21:34.400 things go too far, it's seriously not good. Right? So when things went too far on the right,
00:21:40.800 then we had 120 million people die in the Second World War. And when things went too far on the left,
00:21:45.920 we had God only knows how many people murdered as a consequence of internal repression. At least
00:21:52.240 100 million. And we risk putting the entire planet... We risk putting the planet into flames.
00:21:59.680 Okay. So that's the consequence. All right. So now, in the aftermath of World War II, let's say we've
00:22:06.000 come to some sort of sociological agreement, I would say, that you can identify the radical right-wingers.
00:22:11.360 When people make claims of racial superiority, you put them in a box and you say, well, you're outside of
00:22:16.720 acceptable political discourse. And so you saw that with William F. Buckley in the 60s when he started
00:22:22.400 his conservative review. He dissociated himself from the David Duke types. And you saw it more recently
00:22:26.960 with people, for example, like Ben Shapiro, who immediately distanced himself from the Charlottesville types.
00:22:32.240 Okay. So now we kind of have a sense of where you've crossed the damn line in your ethno-nationalism.
00:22:39.200 Right? As soon as you move into the racial superiority domain, ethnic superiority domain, it's like, no,
00:22:45.440 you've got to be dangerous. All right. Here's a question. Where the hell do you cross the line on the left?
00:22:52.960 Exactly. Well, the answer is, who knows? Well, that's not a very good answer. I would say it's incumbent.
00:23:00.640 It's incumbent on people in the center and in the moderate left to say, look,
00:23:06.240 things can go too far on the left. And here's how we know that's happened. And that hasn't happened
00:23:13.440 at all. Now, I think there's a reason for that. I think there's a technical reason as well as a
00:23:18.480 motivational reason, two technical reasons. It's harder for people on the left to draw boundaries
00:23:24.720 because people on the left aren't boundary drawing types. They're boundary dissolving types,
00:23:30.240 temperamentally speaking. So that's a problem. The second problem is it doesn't look to me like there is a
00:23:35.600 smoking pistol on the left. That's as obvious as racial superiority doctrines. You know, it's like
00:23:41.760 there in Canada, there's a lot of push for this triumvirate of radical ideas, diversity,
00:23:47.040 inclusivity, and equity, which diversity, it's like, well, who's against that? It's like being against
00:23:52.240 poverty. Inclusivity? Well, yes, of course, we want people included. Equity? That's a more bitter pill to
00:24:00.080 swallow because that's equality of outcome. And for me, that's a marker. It's like, if you're talking
00:24:04.240 about equality of outcome, you've gone too far. And if you're talking about diversity,
00:24:10.160 inclusivity, and equality of outcome, equity, then you've gone too far. And you might disagree.
00:24:16.560 You might disagree. That's fine. Disagree. If that isn't the marker for going too far, then
00:24:23.120 what's the marker? Because obviously you can go too far. And obviously that's not good. And to close on
00:24:30.480 that, I would also say to the people on the moderate left, if you want your doctrines to have
00:24:36.480 purchase and to continue to speak for the, for those who stack up at the bottom of inevitable
00:24:42.880 hierarchies, then you owe it to yourself to dissociate yourself from the dangerous radicals because
00:24:49.200 otherwise they invalidate your ideas. And that doesn't seem to be, you'd think the Democrats might
00:24:54.880 have learned that in the last election, but they haven't. They haven't learned that. So,
00:25:02.400 well, so that's my spiel about those comments, I guess.
00:25:08.240 Okay, so you've changed the lives of many young people and adults in this country,
00:25:13.360 in the Anglosphere, in the West, in the world. You have a massive following. My girlfriend's parents
00:25:19.120 call you Uncle Jordan, for example. On the other hand, and this is just a fact, tons of people on the
00:25:25.440 left, as we've just seen, because of your power and also your frontal attack on a lot of their views,
00:25:31.680 hate you and viciously caricature you. Then there are these other figures, like Jonathan Haidt and Robbie
00:25:38.160 George. They have a lot in common with you. They are respected academics. They are at least relatively
00:25:43.760 well-known outside academia. They share your critiques of the humanities, of student activists,
00:25:50.080 of trends in Western culture. They don't have nearly the following that you do, but they also aren't as
00:25:55.760 hated or viciously caricatured. Moreover, they may have changed the minds of more people on college
00:26:03.120 campuses. That is, people on campuses who have some sympathy for left activists or who may agree with
00:26:09.600 much of what you say, but react negatively to confrontation and harsh criticism. Haidt has
00:26:14.800 appealed to such individuals by taking the Dale Carnegie, Win friends, and influence people approach.
00:26:21.200 So my questions are, first, do you agree with this dichotomy? Second, did you consciously choose one
00:26:27.200 path over the other? And if so, why? Well, I mean, with Haidt, for example, there's more power to him,
00:26:34.960 as far as I'm concerned, you know. He has a different temperament than me. He's more introverted.
00:26:41.840 He's less volatile, I would say. He's probably more agreeable or more polite, anyways. And I think
00:26:49.120 that what he's doing is extremely effective, especially from the perspective of very carefully
00:26:54.800 documenting the empirical facts about the ideological, the increasingly left-leaning ideological tilt
00:27:05.200 of campuses, which is something that needs to be explored on empirical grounds. So, like I said,
00:27:12.880 more power to him, and there's nothing wrong with being reasonable, I guess. And then you asked,
00:27:20.000 well, is that the right pathway for me? It's like, well, apparently not.
00:27:30.160 What happened when I made my initial videos was that, you know, I had, I had spoke, I talked to
00:27:37.520 people a lot. I've worked with people a lot about negotiation. It's one of the things that I
00:27:42.640 specialized in, I would say, in my clinical and consulting practice, was teaching people how to
00:27:46.480 negotiate. And I can tell you some things about negotiating that you might find interesting and
00:27:51.040 useful. The first is, you can't negotiate from a position of weakness. So all of you who are going
00:27:56.000 to be developing your careers in the future, you need to understand that if you want to push your
00:28:00.480 career forward, well, first of all, that you do, in fact, have to push it forward, because if you're
00:28:06.400 competent and silent, you will be ignored. And, you know, that's rough, because you might think,
00:28:13.280 well, people should reward you because you're competent. And yes, of course they should. But
00:28:18.080 if you're competent and silent, then you're just not, you're not a problem. You're just part of the
00:28:23.280 background that's keeping everything functioning. And so if you want to develop your career in terms
00:28:28.400 of promotion, say, and salary, it's like, you have to be competent and you have to be strategic.
00:28:33.840 And to be strategic, when you negotiate for a new position or for a new salary, you have to be able to
00:28:39.280 say, if you don't give me what I want, then something you don't like will happen to you.
00:28:46.240 And what that means, it's not a physical threat, it's that you have an option.
00:28:50.720 You know, so you have your CV, your resume in order, right? You're educated and competent and
00:28:56.480 desirable to people outside of your immediate job. You're willing to instantly put yourself in the job
00:29:02.560 market and undergo the stress of finding a new position and undergoing interviews and all of that.
00:29:07.040 And you have that all planned out so that when you go talk to the person that you're negotiating
00:29:11.760 with, with regards to your salary, you're credible. And you see, because they, it's very seldom that
00:29:17.040 you're talking to the person who's at the top of the pecking order, let's say. What you need to do
00:29:21.920 that with them is to tell them a story that they can tell to their boss to make you not a problem.
00:29:28.000 And one, a good story is, look, we really need this person because they're hyper-competent
00:29:32.160 and they have a better offer. It's like, well, then you're going to win the negotiation.
00:29:36.240 But if you go in there with no power, well, you're going to lose, obviously.
00:29:42.960 So the first thing that you need to know if you're going to negotiate is that you have to be able to
00:29:46.800 say no. And what no means is that you're not going to do it. And when I made the videos about Bill C-16,
00:29:55.840 I thought it through. And I thought, there's no damn way I'm following this law. I don't care what
00:30:02.480 happens. And I didn't say that lightly. I thought it through. I thought, okay, well, let's assume the
00:30:08.480 worst case scenario. And the worst case scenario would be that a student would report me to the
00:30:12.880 Ontario Human Rights Commission. And then they would do an investigation. Then they would find me guilty
00:30:17.600 because the Ontario Human Rights Commission finds 99% of the people brought to it guilty
00:30:23.520 because that's what totalitarians do. And then I would refuse to pay the fine or cooperate with
00:30:29.040 whatever the re-education they would put me through would be. And then that would move to civil court.
00:30:33.680 And then I would be fined for contempt. And then it would, you know, then the whole legal catastrophe
00:30:38.080 would unfold. And I thought, well, I could either do that or I could allow the government to regulate
00:30:44.000 my speech. It's like, nope, that's not happening. So you might think about that as confrontational.
00:30:51.040 And it is confrontational. It's like, there isn't a goddamn thing that can be done to me to make me
00:30:58.400 allow the government to compel my speech. That's not happening. And the reason for that,
00:31:04.080 I believe the reason for that, is because I spent decades studying totalitarianism. It's not good.
00:31:13.680 And the way that totalitarian states develop is that people give up their right to be, their right to
00:31:20.640 exist with their own thoughts. They lie. That's what happens, is that individuals, the individuals
00:31:27.840 sacrifice their own souls to the dictates of the state. And then everything goes badly sideways.
00:31:35.520 It's like, and you think, well, how much evidence for that do we need?
00:31:39.680 You know, you're looking at a quarter of a billion deaths. It's like, isn't that enough?
00:31:45.520 Well, the people that I read who were profound, Viktor Frankl's a good example for beginners,
00:31:50.320 if you want to read about this sort of thing, he wrote a book called Man's Search for Meaning.
00:31:54.960 And Frankl, and also Solzhenitsyn, and a variety of other commentators as well, who really looked into what
00:32:00.720 happened in both in Nazi Germany and in the communist states. Their conclusion was universal.
00:32:09.200 Is that the lies of the state, the lies and tyranny of the state are aided and abetted by the moral
00:32:14.720 sacrifice of the individual. It's not top-down. The Nazis are telling you what to do and you're all innocent and obeying.
00:32:23.440 That's not how it works, is you falsify your being bit by bit and you end up where you don't want to be.
00:32:35.280 And that's a bad idea. And if you're interested in that, there's a great book called Ordinary Men.
00:32:42.080 You read that and you won't be the same person afterwards. So I would beware of reading it.
00:32:46.640 But it's a story about these policemen in Germany. So they were middle-aged guys, you know, and they'd been,
00:32:52.640 they grew up and were socialized before the Nazis came to power. So they're just your typical middle-class
00:32:58.320 policemen. And they were brought into Poland after the Nazis had marched through and charged with
00:33:06.320 keeping order in the occupied state. And they knew, their commander knew that it was going to be brutal
00:33:14.960 because they were in war, wartime. And they regard the Jews, for example, as enemies. And so there was
00:33:20.320 going to be a fair bit of rounding up with all of that, with all of what that implied. And the commander
00:33:25.440 told the policemen that they could go home if they wanted to, that they didn't have to participate in
00:33:30.000 this. And then what ordinary men does is document their transformation from ordinary policemen,
00:33:37.840 the sort of people that you know, to guys who were taking naked pregnant women out into the middle of
00:33:42.480 fields and shooting them in the back of the head. And it documents, one step at a time, how an ordinary
00:33:49.440 person turns into someone like that. You think, well, we don't want that sort of thing to happen anymore.
00:33:55.680 Well, then you don't want to be that sort of person. That's how it's fixed.
00:34:00.000 And if you're not going to be that sort of person, then you don't take the first steps.
00:34:05.200 Because the first steps lead you down a pathway that, at least in principle, you don't want to go.
00:34:11.040 So, well, I think part of what makes me combative, say, compared to someone like height, is that
00:34:16.080 I've spent years looking at the worst things there are to look at. And I've learned from that. And I've
00:34:23.440 learned, certainly learned things that I won't do. And one of them is, I won't let the government
00:34:28.400 regulate my speech. It's a mistake. I don't care what compassionate principles hypothetically motivate
00:34:36.080 that move. It was unprecedented in English common law, that move. And it was all buried under this
00:34:43.760 leftist compassion, which is mostly, it's mostly a lie.
00:34:51.040 So, I have reasons, I think, other than those that motivate someone like Jonathan Haidt to be
00:34:59.360 particularly passionate about this issue.
00:35:04.000 So, on the subject of totalitarianism, I wanted to do something very quickly. So,
00:35:16.400 I'm guessing that even though most people in the room have negative views of both men,
00:35:20.960 they have a more intensely negative view of Hitler than of Stalin.
00:35:28.080 I'm guessing almost everyone in the room has a far more negative visceral reaction
00:35:33.280 to the swastika than to the hammer and sickle.
00:35:37.760 Some of the protesters at your event at McMaster University stood behind a banner with a hammer
00:35:43.600 and sickle. You've said that a hammer and sickle is no funnier than a swastika.
00:35:48.480 That, quote, the reprehensible ideologies that are based in fundamental Marxism
00:35:53.360 killed at least 100 million people in the 20th century, unquote. I've discussed this proposition
00:35:58.720 with numerous people in recent months, and almost no one seems to buy it.
00:36:03.760 No one disputes the body count under socialist regimes. Few dispute that Stalin was a vicious
00:36:10.320 murderer, roughly on par with Hitler in moral terms. Most think that communism should not be tried again.
00:36:19.440 In other words, they share your critique of the argument that previous communist experiments
00:36:24.400 did not represent proper communism and that proper communism should be tried.
00:36:30.880 Nevertheless, they still disagree with you
00:36:34.320 that we should react as negatively to the hammer and sickle as we do to the swastika.
00:36:39.520 Why? Because they say the two ideologies are not morally comparable. National socialism is much worse
00:36:48.160 morally than Marxism or Marxism-Leninism. So what do you say to this?
00:36:56.880 Well, I would say the first thing is that it's highly probable that you were talking to intellectuals.
00:37:01.280 Students. Well, we'll call them budding intellectuals.
00:37:17.520 It is a mystery, you know. It is a mystery because it is the case that there is something about the
00:37:26.000 Nazi doctrine that seems to have a visceral impact that the communist doctrine doesn't have.
00:37:35.360 And I said when I opened my remarks tonight that it might be the issue of racial superiority.
00:37:44.000 You know, it's something single that you can put your finger on.
00:37:48.080 Whereas what's happening on the left that's horrifying is murky. It might even be multi-dimensional.
00:37:53.440 Like maybe there isn't a single radical leftist idea that's murderous like the racial superiority doctrine.
00:37:59.200 Maybe it's a combination of three or maybe it's some set of four out of ten. Who knows?
00:38:04.560 So, and because of that it doesn't seem as repugnant. And there was also a universalizing tendency among the communists
00:38:11.920 that seemed to be less morally reprehensible than the ethno-nationalism of the Nazis.
00:38:17.520 So, you know, you think, if you go back to 1914, it's complicated. But if you go back to, say, 1918,
00:38:24.720 at the time of the Russian Revolution, it's not like the communists knew that their attempts to bring
00:38:31.120 about the socialist utopia would be doomed to absolute murderous catastrophe, right? They were,
00:38:36.160 they were working in ignorance. Now it's not that simple. Because by that time Dostoevsky had already
00:38:42.800 written, the devils, the possessed. And he outlined very, very clearly what he thought would happen if
00:38:49.040 people like that got the reins of power. And Nietzsche had done the same thing in his writing. So
00:38:53.760 people knew that there was something toxic, let's say, and deadly about the doctrine. But it hadn't been
00:38:59.200 played out on the world stage. But now it's like, well, this is why I said what I said at the beginning.
00:39:06.960 Fine. You know, if, I don't know exactly how to make the moral distinction.
00:39:17.680 But it's a distinction that has to be made. I think that people who apologize, who say something,
00:39:23.200 like I think, I think that, that it's virtually, I don't know if it's as reprehensible to say that
00:39:32.720 a given ethnic group should be consigned to the fire and to say that wasn't real communism. But they're
00:39:39.680 damn close. And when I hear someone say that wasn't real communism, I know what they mean.
00:39:46.800 What they mean was, if I was the dictator in Stalin's shoes, I personally would have brought in the utopia.
00:39:55.360 That's what that statement means. Or it means an ignorance of history that's so utterly appalling that
00:40:07.760 that any political statement made on behalf of that person whatsoever should immediately be followed
00:40:14.000 by a paroxysm of extreme embarrassment. May I say one, just, I just want to be clear that
00:40:21.600 that these students were conceding that they don't agree, that they share your critique of the-
00:40:29.200 They don't share it enough.
00:40:30.560 Oh, okay. Fair enough. I just wanted to make that clear.
00:40:32.880 So they would more or less agree with what you just said, I think, about it's not okay to say
00:40:38.880 those regimes weren't proper communism and that proper communism should be tried. They still dispute,
00:40:43.120 though, that socialism as an ideology is on par with Nazism. So I just wanted to make that clear.
00:40:47.680 Well, we could say communism, let's say. We could say radical leftist ideology. As I said already,
00:40:54.000 there are reasons for the left and the right wing, right? The right wing stands for hierarchy and the
00:40:59.040 left wing stands for the, for those who are displaced by hierarchy, right? An endless problem.
00:41:05.920 But that doesn't mean, that still leaves it in the camp of the people speaking on behalf of
00:41:12.240 egalitarianism to figure out just what the hell went wrong and to take some responsibility for it.
00:41:18.800 You know, it's no joke. And we see these things play out continually. Still, look at what happened
00:41:23.600 to Venezuela. Here's a fun story. Do you know that it is now illegal for physicians to list
00:41:30.560 list starvation as the cause of death for a Venezuelan child in a hospital? That's how they're dealing with the
00:41:38.240 fact of starvation, right? You just make it illegal to have that diagnosed as your cause of death.
00:41:44.560 That'll solve the problem. It's like, you know, we have a group of, of well-meaning socialists in Canada
00:41:52.080 who just produced something called the Leap Manifesto a couple of years ago. And it's a pretty radical,
00:41:58.000 it's a pretty radical document. They're trying to move our socialist party, the NDP, New Democratic Party,
00:42:03.520 towards the acceptance of this Leap Manifesto, which doesn't look like it's going to happen.
00:42:08.320 But they were all radical promoters of the Venezuelan government before everything went,
00:42:13.360 like, badly sideways. You know, I think the average Venezuelan now has lost 17 pounds.
00:42:19.760 And that's not because they were put on a voluntary dieting program, right? It's not good. And so,
00:42:26.480 if you're tilting towards the left, and you're temperamentally inclined that way, and half the
00:42:31.440 population is, then you have an ethical problem on your, on your hands. Which is, how do you segregate
00:42:37.920 yourself from the radical policies that produce the catastrophes of the 20th century? And you can't just
00:42:43.360 say, well, that's not my problem. It's like, well, okay, if it's not your problem now, it certainly
00:42:49.520 might become your problem in the future. So, and I would say it's actually everybody's problem. In the
00:42:54.960 aftermath of the 20th century, it's everybody's problem. So, so it's, it's, it's, it's complicated.
00:43:04.400 Like, there is a genuine desire, like, I worked for a socialist party for quite a while when I was a kid.
00:43:11.280 You know, and I saw both sides of it. I saw some very, very admirable people. I, I was privy for,
00:43:18.320 for a variety of chance reasons to the leadership of the socialist party in Canada at the provincial
00:43:24.720 and the national level. I met the people who ran the provinces, some of the provinces, and who ran
00:43:28.960 the party. And a lot of them were really admirable people. Like, they'd spent their whole life,
00:43:33.120 I would say, working on behalf of the working class, you know. So they were genuine labor leaders. And,
00:43:38.400 and, and, and there was also a lot done in Canada on the left that looks like it was actually pretty
00:43:44.000 good. Standard work week, the, you know, the, the establishment of, of pensions, the introduction
00:43:49.920 of our healthcare system, which I would say probably overall works better than the American system,
00:43:56.640 although not at the upper end. And they were working hard on behalf of people who had
00:44:03.280 working class lives. But then I also encountered the sort of low level activist types. And I didn't
00:44:10.240 have any respect for them at all. I just thought they were peevish and resentful and irritable. And
00:44:14.400 that those two things exist in a very uneasy coalition on the West. There's care for the poor
00:44:20.160 and hatred for the successful. And those two things aren't the same at all. And it looks to me like one
00:44:25.520 of the things that really happened when the communist doctrines were brought into play. And it also, by the
00:44:30.800 way, we did the multinational experiment, right? It doesn't matter where you put these policies into
00:44:35.440 play, the same bloody outcome occurred. Didn't matter whether it was Russia or China or Cambodia or Vietnam or,
00:44:42.080 to pick a random African country or Cuba or Venezuela for that matter. It was an unmitigated catastrophe.
00:44:49.040 And so to me that's experiment plus replication. Enough. Enough. Well, that has to be dealt with.
00:44:57.200 And it's not, and the intellectual left in the West has been absolutely appalling in their silence
00:45:03.440 on the communist catastrophe. Like, for my students, a lot of my students really haven't heard about
00:45:08.240 anything that happened in the Soviet Union in any detail until they take my personality
00:45:12.960 class in the second year of university. It's like, well, what the hell? Why are they learning
00:45:17.200 about that in a personality class in the second year of university? That's not, that should be
00:45:23.040 first and foremost in, in their, in their historical knowledge what happened in the 20th century. I mean,
00:45:28.720 it was almost fatal what happened. And we still haven't completely recovered from it, right? I think,
00:45:34.240 isn't your president Donald Trump going to talk to like insane totalitarian number one sometime here
00:45:41.120 in the near future? But that's still a Soviet era state. Those people are armed to the teeth.
00:45:47.280 You know, they have the weapon, they have weaponry that could easily take you out.
00:45:52.000 And so we're not, I don't know if you know, do you know what happens if you blast a single
00:45:56.160 hydrogen bomb a hundred miles above the United States? Just one. You lose all your electronics.
00:46:03.200 Right, they're all done. Tractors, cars, trains, subways, computers, phones, all of them. Burnout.
00:46:12.960 And that's it. So we're not done with this yet. And the Korean state, North Korea, is an emblematic
00:46:20.960 representative of the communist catastrophe. And everyone there starves. There's millions of people
00:46:27.440 died 20 years ago. It's not got any better. So it's not like, it's not like we solved this problem.
00:46:34.800 And there's a deafening silence on the intellectual side of the spectrum with regards to what happened
00:46:40.800 on the egalitarian left. And there's no excuse for it. So.
00:46:50.560 So somewhat relatedly, I think it's fair to say that even though you have criticized segments of both
00:46:56.160 the left, social justice warriors, and the right, the alt-right, your critical commentary over the last
00:47:02.880 year and a half has focused significantly more on the left than on the right. A lot of people I've talked
00:47:09.040 to here at Lafayette, at Lafayette, take issue with that. They say that we're so far from a Marxist
00:47:15.520 takeover of our culture and political institutions that to suggest otherwise is to engage in a classic
00:47:22.080 kind of right-wing exaggeration and hysteria that we've seen before in Western countries in the early
00:47:27.520 to mid-20th century. They also say, and this is important to them, that the nationalist authoritarian
00:47:34.080 right poses more of a threat to freedom of the individual than the left does today, as it has in
00:47:40.560 the West since the early 20th century. They argue that the left may have sway in the academy and large
00:47:46.240 segments of the media, but nationalist right parties, figures, and movements with authoritarian
00:47:52.000 tendencies have risen, become potent, and often been victorious in recent years. And they point to Trump,
00:47:59.280 Brexit, the national front. Pointing to Trump is rather pointless. I mean, I don't know what Trump
00:48:05.520 is, but to think of him as a figure of the radical right is a little on the absurd side. So, I mean,
00:48:12.800 we are polarizing. And so, who God only knows where the ultimate danger will come from. If it's the
00:48:18.880 ethno-nationalists on the right, or if it's the radical leftists on the left, who knows, right?
00:48:23.760 I suspect to some degree that's a matter of happenstance. I mean, that's what you'd expect if
00:48:29.120 you looked at 20th century history. But I emerged out of the academy, and the academy, like, there
00:48:35.920 aren't right-wing people in the academy, not to speak of. That's completely, that's thoroughly documented.
00:48:42.720 And it's certainly not the case in a country like Canada. There's no threat whatsoever in Canada from,
00:48:48.800 from the radical right. It's like, I don't know if you rounded up everybody who was in the radical right
00:48:53.600 in Canada, you might be able to scrape up, like, what, three or four thousand people. If you really,
00:48:58.960 like, if you really worked at it. You know, so, I just don't see that, at least in my own country,
00:49:04.800 that's just a non-issue. It's a non-starter. I mean, the last time there was any kind of radical
00:49:11.120 right-wingers in Canada was probably in Quebec in the 1950s, and maybe from the 1930s to the 1950s,
00:49:17.520 but it's never been a political issue. What about the AFD, or the Italian, I can't remember the name of
00:49:22.880 the Italian party, the national front in France? Where would you put, would you...
00:49:27.680 Oh, well, I mean, in Europe, it's more, there's more polarization, I would say,
00:49:32.560 but the Europeans also have problems that we don't have. You know, they've been, they've been
00:49:37.680 struggling with the consequences of non-ending violence in the Middle East, and the wave of
00:49:43.040 refugees that has emerged as a consequence of that, and so the situation in Europe is different,
00:49:48.000 and I would say, there is more movement and activity on the right. So, but...
00:49:55.440 And, you know, I'm not a admirer of identity politics. Well, and that's for the reasons I brought up to begin
00:50:02.800 with. I think that you have to decide, conceptually, psychologically, familially, and socially,
00:50:12.080 what your vision of a human being is. And if your vision of a human being is essentially tribal,
00:50:18.960 so that you're defined by your collective identity in some manner, then you're going to play identity
00:50:24.160 politics on the left, you're going to play identity politics on the right. It's like, well, I think the
00:50:28.800 identity politics types on the left pose a bigger threat in my country. It's not so obvious in your
00:50:34.160 country, because you guys, your political landscape is more balanced, I would say, than ours. If the
00:50:40.560 radical right posed a threat to the academy, which they most decidedly do not, then I would be just
00:50:46.560 as upset about that. And so, I think, again, it's part and parcel of the radical left's failure to take,
00:50:54.080 or the left's in general, failure to take responsibility for the radicals. It's like, oh, well, why aren't you
00:50:58.960 criticizing equally on both sides? Well, the threat doesn't exist equally on both sides, not in my
00:51:06.640 country. So, I think identity politics is murderous game, no matter who plays it, you know. And on the
00:51:14.320 left, it's, well, we've already talked about that, so what's wrong on the right? Well, you stand up and
00:51:20.080 wave your flag and talk about your ethnic identity, or your racial identity, and you take pride in that.
00:51:24.800 It's like, what the hell did that have to do with you, you goddamn loser? You know? It's like, you're
00:51:30.560 one of the great heroes of the past, are you? That's why you're standing up and waving your flag. It's,
00:51:34.640 no, you're not. You're identifying with your group because you don't have anything of your own to offer,
00:51:40.000 and so it's pathetic. And I've said that many times, and in my lectures too, and people know this if they've
00:51:45.680 actually watched my university lectures, I spend a tremendous amount of time, and have for 30 years,
00:51:52.720 convincing my students that if they had been in Nazi Germany, there was a very high probability
00:51:57.680 that rather than being Oscar Schindler and rescuing the Jews, they would have been a Nazi persecutor,
00:52:03.440 because there's like five Oscar Schindlers and like many million Nazis, so you can do the math for
00:52:10.480 yourself. And if you don't think that, if you think that you would have been one of the few heroes, then
00:52:15.600 you're either someone truly remarkable, or you're unbelievably deluded. And so I would suspect that
00:52:24.640 you're in the unbelievably deluded camp, because truly remarkable people are rare. And I've really,
00:52:30.000 I've really seen this in the last year or two, because one of the things I have noted, like I knew that
00:52:34.480 people were timid, you know, and I knew why. It's dangerous to stick your head up above the rest. I mean,
00:52:40.320 it's predator avoidance strategy to keep your head down. And I mean that technically, it truly is. To
00:52:46.240 blend in with the crowd is a predator avoidance strategy. That's what fish do in schools of fish.
00:52:52.240 Like, it's very low-level behavior. And if you stick your head up, there's some real danger. And
00:52:57.120 the advantage to that is that people are pretty civilized, and they go along with the group, and that's
00:53:01.440 a good thing, because, you know, we should be civilized and go along with the group, but it's a really bad
00:53:05.760 thing when the group goes sideways. And I've had many people, colleagues, but many other people,
00:53:11.520 too, say, well, really, we agree with what you're doing, but we can't really take the risk of standing
00:53:17.040 up and saying so. It's like, well, now and then, so most people fall into that camp. When I went to
00:53:22.320 Queen's University a month ago and was subject to that chilling demonstration, I would say, where the
00:53:28.960 radicals climbed up into the stained glass window wells and pounded, you know, unendingly for 90
00:53:36.480 minutes while we were all inside, I had a professor write me the day before and say, look, my wife and
00:53:42.160 I work at the university. We really support what you're doing, but we can't even risk coming to the
00:53:47.360 talk, because what if the students see and complain? It's like, well, yeah, there's courage for you, man.
00:53:53.440 There's courage for you, you know. And so, but that's par for the course, and it's unsurprising to some
00:53:59.200 degree. But, well, but anyways, on the right, it's like, it's an excuse by people on the left not to take
00:54:10.000 the things that I'm saying seriously. That's what it is. It's like, well, he's not attacking the right
00:54:14.960 as much. It's like, well, they're not after me. They're not trying to close down my speech.
00:54:20.800 So, I took that personally. So, had it been right wingers coming after me, well, it would have been
00:54:28.080 the same thing. So, it's a foolish objection, I think.
00:54:40.560 For decades, ethnic groups have, on average, scored significantly differently on IQ tests.
00:54:46.800 According to psychology professor Richard Heyer, whom you interviewed on your channel,
00:54:51.280 YouTube, there is no scientific consensus on the causes of these average differences in IQ test
00:54:56.400 scores. Yet, according to Heyer, psychologists do generally agree that general intelligence exists,
00:55:03.440 that IQ measures it well and in a non-culturally biased way, that IQ is highly predictive of success
00:55:10.560 in educational and professional terms, and that for decades, ethnic groups have, on average,
00:55:15.760 scored significantly differently. So, assuming this is true, should we talk about it? Sam Harris raised
00:55:22.480 this question in a podcast conversation with Charles Murray. Some argue that we should not talk about this,
00:55:29.040 as doing so could fuel the racial supremacist movements that you mentioned, with potentially
00:55:34.320 horrific consequences. Others, mainly on the intellectual dark web, and to a very limited
00:55:40.720 extent in academia, think we should talk about this topic. Because average differences in IQ scores have
00:55:46.640 existed for decades. They may have played a role in generating the disparate educational and professional
00:55:53.200 outcomes that we observe and care about, and thus that we cannot properly analyze these disparate
00:55:59.360 outcomes unless we do talk about this subject openly. Geneticist David Reich recently argued in the New York
00:56:06.240 Times that if scientists do not openly discuss the biological basis of race, pseudoscientists could fill the
00:56:13.600 vacuum with dangerous consequences. Furthermore, you, Professor Peterson, are highly critical of the
00:56:20.480 oppression narrative that permeates segments of the academy and activist left. And knowledge about
00:56:27.360 average differences in IQ scores between ethnic groups, while tough to assimilate, could puncture this
00:56:33.840 narrative. So the question is, what is your view on all that I've just said? Jesus, you guys already did
00:56:40.640 take a long time to prepare these questions, didn't you? All right, so when I went to Harvard, I came from McGill,
00:56:53.440 and I had spent a lot of time with my advisor there and a research team that he had trying to understand the
00:57:02.240 genesis of antisocial behavior. And among adolescents mostly. So well, as kids as well, antisocial behavior is very persistent. So if you have a child whose conduct
00:57:14.400 disordered at the age of four, the probability that they will be criminal at the age of 15 or 20 is extremely high. It's unbelievably stable. It's a very dismal literature because you see these early onset aggressive kids
00:57:29.120 and it's persistent. And then you look at the intervention literature and you throw up your hands because no interventions work. And believe me, psychologists have tried everything you could possibly imagine,
00:57:41.520 and a bunch of things that you can't, in order to ameliorate that. So we were really interested in trying to understand, for example,
00:57:49.280 if you're antisocial by the age of four, then there isn't an intervention that seems to be effective.
00:57:54.720 So, and the standard penological theory is really quite horrifying in this regard, because what you see is that male aggression peaks around the age of 15,
00:58:04.560 and then it declines fairly precipitously and sort of normalizes again by the age of 27. And standard penological theory essentially is this cold-hearted.
00:58:14.560 It's like, if you have someone who's a multiple offender, you just throw them in prison until they're 27.
00:58:19.920 And then they age out of it. And that's all there is to it. That's what we've got. Now there's some downside to that,
00:58:27.840 because there's a corollary literature that suggests that the worst thing that you can do with antisocial people
00:58:32.400 is to group them together, which is what we do in prisons. So that's a whole mess. Anyways, one of the things
00:58:39.280 we were doing was trying to see if there might be cognitive predictors of antisocial behavior. And so we used
00:58:45.360 this battery of neuropsychological tests that was put together at the Montreal Neurological Institute,
00:58:50.560 took about 11 hours to administer, and hypothetically assessed prefrontal cortical function.
00:58:56.320 We computerized that, reduced it to about 90 minutes, and then assessed antisocial adolescence in
00:59:03.600 Montreal, and found out that they did show deficits in problem-solving ability that we associated with
00:59:09.360 prefrontal ability. When I got to Harvard, I thought, well, that's interesting. We could use the
00:59:17.520 neuropsych battery to predict negative behavior. Perhaps we could use it to predict positive behavior.
00:59:24.560 So I thought, well, what if we turned the neuropsych battery over and thought, well, can we predict grades,
00:59:31.040 for example, because, you know, that's a decent thing to predict. So we ran a study that looked at
00:59:37.600 Harvard kids, University of Toronto kids, line workers at a Milwaukee factory, and managers and
00:59:43.920 executives at the same factory. And what we found was that the average score across these neuropsychological
00:59:51.280 tests, they were kind of like games. They were game-like, you know. So in one test, there were five
00:59:57.440 lights in the middle of the screen, and a box was associated with each light, and you had to learn
01:00:02.400 by trial and error which box was associated with each light. That was one of the tests.
01:00:08.640 So we took people's average score across the tests because they seemed to clump together into a single
01:00:15.760 structure. You can find that out statistically. If you take a bunch of tests, you can find out how
01:00:20.960 they clump together statistically by looking at their patterns of correlations, and you might get
01:00:24.960 multiple clumps, which is what happens with personality research, where you get five, or you might get a
01:00:29.600 singular clump, which is what happens in cognitive research. And we got a single clump, essentially.
01:00:35.840 And then we were trying to figure out if, at the same time, I was reading the literature on performance
01:00:41.120 prediction, and there's an extensive literature on performance prediction, a lot of it generated by the
01:00:46.000 armed forces, by the way, indicating that IQ is a very good predictor of long-term life success.
01:00:52.000 And so here's the general rule. If your job is simple, which means you do the same thing every
01:00:58.960 day, then IQ predicts how fast you'll learn the job, but not how well you do it. But if your job is
01:01:04.640 complex, which means that the demands change on an ongoing basis, then the best predictor of success
01:01:10.160 is general cognitive ability. And I learned that the general cognitive ability tests clumped together
01:01:16.880 into a single factor. That's fluid intelligence or IQ. And then we didn't know if the factor that we
01:01:22.320 had found was the same factor as IQ. And we still haven't really figured out whether or not that was
01:01:28.400 the case, because it kind of depends on how you do the analysis. But anyways, I got deeply into the
01:01:33.440 performance prediction literature, and I found out, well, if you wanted to predict people's performance
01:01:37.600 in life, there's a couple of things you need to know. You need to know their general cognitive
01:01:41.520 ability if they're going to do a complex job. You need to know their trait conscientiousness.
01:01:47.120 Some of you might have heard that rebranded as grit in a very corrupt act, by the way,
01:01:52.960 because it's a good predictor of long-term life success.
01:01:56.560 Freedom from negative emotion. Low neuroticism is another predictor, but it's sort of third on the
01:02:01.680 hierarchy. And then openness to experience, which is a personality trait, is associated with expertise
01:02:07.360 in creative domains. The evidence that, now I should tell you, this is such a complicated question,
01:02:13.520 I should tell you how to make an IQ test, because it's actually really easy. And you need to know this
01:02:18.160 to actually understand what IQ is. So imagine that you generated a set of 10,000 questions, okay, about
01:02:26.000 anything. They could be math problems, they could be general knowledge, they could be vocabulary,
01:02:30.720 they could be multiple choice. It really doesn't matter what they're about as long as they require
01:02:34.480 abstraction to solve, so they'd be formulated linguistically, but mathematically would also
01:02:39.760 apply. And then you have those 10,000 questions. Now you take a random set of 100 of those questions
01:02:47.280 and you give them to 1,000 people and all you do is sum up the answers, right? So some people are going
01:02:52.800 to get most of them right and some of them are going to get most of them wrong. You just rank order the
01:02:56.720 people in terms of their score. Correct that for age and you have IQ. That's all there is to it.
01:03:03.600 And what you'll find is that no matter which random set of 100 questions you take,
01:03:08.160 the people at the top of one random set will be at the top of all the others,
01:03:12.160 and with very, very, very high consistency. So one thing you need to know is that
01:03:17.680 if any social science claims whatsoever are correct, then the IQ claims are correct.
01:03:26.160 Because the IQ claims are more psychometrically rigorous than any other phenomenon that's been
01:03:32.240 discovered by social scientists. Now the IQ literature is a dismal literature. No one likes it.
01:03:38.000 Here's why. Here's an example. So here's a little, here's a fun little fact for you,
01:03:43.040 for liberals and conservatives alike. Because conservatives think there's a job for everyone
01:03:46.720 if people just get off their asses and get to work. And liberals think, well, you can train
01:03:50.720 anyone to do anything. It's like, no, there isn't a job for everyone. And no, you can't train everyone
01:03:56.720 to do everything. That's wrong. And here's one of the consequences of that. So as I mentioned,
01:04:02.560 the Armed Forces has done a lot of work on IQ and they started back in 1919. And the reason they did
01:04:08.080 that was because, well, for obvious reasons. Let's say there's a war and you want to get qualified
01:04:14.720 people into the officer positions as rapidly as possible or you'll lose. So that's a reason.
01:04:20.960 Now the Armed Forces has experimented with IQ tests since 1919. And in the last 20 years, a law was
01:04:29.360 passed as a consequence of that analysis, which was that it was illegal to induct anyone into the
01:04:34.160 Armed Forces who had an IQ of less than 83. Now the question is why? And the answer was,
01:04:41.440 all of that effort put in by the Armed Forces indicated that if you had an IQ of 83 or less,
01:04:46.240 there wasn't anything that you could be trained to do in the military that wasn't positively
01:04:50.080 counterproductive. Now you've got to think about that, eh? Because the military is chronically
01:04:55.440 desperate for people, right? Then it's not like they're, it's not like people are lining up to
01:05:00.160 be inducted, right? They have to go out and recruit and it's not easy. And so they're desperate to get
01:05:05.360 their hands on every body they can possibly manage. And then, especially in wartime, but also in peacetime,
01:05:11.600 but then there was another reason too, which was the Armed Forces was also set up from a policy
01:05:15.680 perspective to take people in the underclass, let's say, and train them and move them up at least into the
01:05:22.080 working class or maybe the middle class. So there's a policy element to it too. And so even from that
01:05:26.720 perspective you could see that the military is desperate to bring people in. But with an IQ of 83
01:05:33.040 or less it's not happening. Okay, so how many people have an IQ of 83 or less? Ten percent.
01:05:42.720 Now, if that doesn't,
01:05:43.920 if that doesn't hurt you to hear, then you didn't hear it properly. Because what it implies is that
01:05:52.800 in a complex society like ours, and one that's becoming increasingly complex, there isn't anything
01:05:59.040 for ten percent of the population to do. All right, well what are we going to do? Are we going to ignore
01:06:04.640 that? Are we going to run away from that? And believe me, we have every reason to. Or are we going to contend with
01:06:10.560 the fact that we need to figure out how it is, how it might be possible to find a place for people on
01:06:19.280 the lower end of the general cognitive distribution to take their productive and worthwhile place in
01:06:25.520 society. And that isn't just going to be a matter of dumping money down the hierarchy. Because giving
01:06:31.360 people who have nothing to do money isn't helpful. It doesn't work. It's not that simple.
01:06:36.640 Well, so that's kind of an answer to the question of whether or not we should deal with the, with IQ
01:06:43.360 forthrightly. It's like, if you can find a flaw in that logic, like just go right ahead. It's not like
01:06:49.600 I was thrilled to death to discover all of this. By no, by no stretch of the imagination was that the case.
01:06:55.840 So, so what? So IQ is reliable and valid. That's the first thing. It's more reliable and valid than any
01:07:03.920 other psychometric test ever designed by social scientists by a factor of about three.
01:07:10.720 That's fact number one. Fact number two is it protects long-term life outcome at about 0.3, 0.4,
01:07:18.400 which leaves about 85%, 70 to 85% of the story unexplained, but it's still the best thing that we
01:07:24.880 have. Well, it's also the case that in places like Great Britain, when IQ tests were first introduced,
01:07:31.760 they were actually used by the socialists and they were used to identify poor people who had
01:07:38.320 potential, cognitive potential, and to move them into higher, into institutes of higher education.
01:07:44.000 So there's an upside, you know, a social upside as well. Ethnic differences.
01:07:49.760 Ethnic differences. This is something you can't say anything about without immediately being killed.
01:07:57.920 So I'm hesitant to broach the topic. But I'll tell you one thing that I did in the last week that's
01:08:03.840 relevant to this. So the, and this just shows you how complex the problem is. First of all,
01:08:09.040 we should point out that race is a very difficult thing to define because racial boundaries aren't tight,
01:08:13.600 right? So, and so when you talk about racial differences in IQ, you're faced with the thorny
01:08:19.440 problem of defining race. And that's a big problem from a scientific perspective. But we'll leave that
01:08:24.240 aside. And I wrote an article this week. Somebody stood up at one point in one of my talks, and Vice
01:08:33.680 blessed their hearts, took this particular question and used it as an indication of the quality of the
01:08:39.600 people who are my so-called followers. And by the way, the quality of my so-called followers is pretty
01:08:44.800 damn high. And you can find that out quite rapidly just by going looking at the YouTube comments,
01:08:50.080 which are head and shoulders above the standard set of YouTube comments, I can tell you that.
01:08:56.160 So someone asked me about the Jewish question, right? And the implication, it was actually someone
01:09:03.120 Jewish, and the implication was that Jews are over-represented in positions of authority and power.
01:09:09.280 And I had just spoken for like an hour and a half, and you know, this guy had an axe to grind,
01:09:17.040 and I thought, there's no goddamn way I'm getting into this at the moment. And so I said, I can't answer
01:09:23.360 that question. But that's not a very good answer. So I wrote a blog post this week, and I said, look,
01:09:28.320 here's the situation. All right. Jews are over-represented in positions of power and authority. But then,
01:09:36.080 let's open our eyes a little bit, eh? And think for like two or three seconds, and think, hey,
01:09:40.400 guess what? They're also over-represented in positions of competence. And it's not like we have
01:09:45.840 more geniuses than we know what to do with. And if the Jews happen to be producing more of them,
01:09:50.880 which they are, by the way, then that's a pretty good thing for the rest of us. So let's not confuse
01:09:56.240 competence with power and authority, even though that's a favorite trick of the radical leftists,
01:10:00.400 who always fail to make that distinction. Well, why does this over-representation occur?
01:10:06.720 Because it does. It also, there's also over-representation in political movements,
01:10:12.000 including radical political movements. Okay, why? Well, answer one, Jewish conspiracy.
01:10:18.640 Okay, that's not a very good answer. We've had, we've used that answer before.
01:10:23.600 All right, but do we have an alternative? Well, here's an alternative.
01:10:28.480 The average Ashkenazi IQ is somewhere between 110 and 115, which is about one standard deviation
01:10:35.440 above the population average. And so what that means is that the average Ashkenazi
01:10:40.800 slash European Jew has an IQ that's higher than 85% of the population.
01:10:47.760 That's a lot higher. Now, that doesn't make that much difference in the middle of the distribution,
01:10:53.120 okay? But geniuses don't exist at the middle of the distribution. They exist at the tails of the
01:10:58.400 distribution. And you don't need much of a move at the mean to produce walloping differences at the
01:11:05.040 tails. And the tails are important because a lot of where we draw, we draw exceptional people from the
01:11:11.680 exceptions. Right? So here's an example, here's another example of the same thing. Most engineers
01:11:18.160 are male. Why? Because men are more interested in things and women are more interested in people.
01:11:25.600 And you might say, well, that's sociocultural. It's like, no, it's not. And we know that because
01:11:31.280 if you stack up countries by their, by their egalitarian social policies, which you can do quite
01:11:37.760 effectively, and then you look at the over-representation of men in STEM fields,
01:11:43.200 the over-representation increases as the countries become more egalitarian.
01:11:48.960 So it's not sociocultural. Okay. Now, men aren't that much more interested in things than women.
01:11:56.080 It's one standard deviation, which is about the same difference, by the way, between the population
01:12:00.560 norm and the Ashkenazi Jews. But if you're looking at the person, the one person in 20, or the one person
01:12:06.480 in 50, who's most, who's hyper-interested in things, and thus likely to become an engineer, then most of
01:12:14.160 them are men. Here's another example of the same thing. Men are more aggressive than women.
01:12:21.360 Now, you might ask, how much? And the answer to that is best place to look at that is in Sweden,
01:12:27.040 where the egalitarian policies have been laid out for a long period of time, and you can,
01:12:31.520 you can get a more direct inference about biology. If you took a random man and a random woman out of
01:12:37.120 the population, and you had to bet on who was more aggressive, and you bet on the man, you'd be
01:12:42.080 right 60% of the time. So that's not that much, right? It deviates from 50-50, but it's not like 90-10,
01:12:49.120 it's 60-40. Okay. So? So what does that mean? Well, we've got a tail problem here again. Let's say that
01:12:56.960 now you decide to go out onto the extremes of aggression, and you identify the most aggressive
01:13:02.480 one in a hundred persons. They're all men. Guess who's in prison? Those people. That's why most of the
01:13:11.920 people in prison are men. And so this is elementary. Part of the problem in our society is that we don't
01:13:18.640 understand statistics. We don't understand that you can have relatively small differences at the
01:13:24.320 population level that produce walloping consequences at the tails of the distribution.
01:13:30.400 Okay, so back to IQ.
01:13:34.320 One final thing to say about IQ.
01:13:36.160 The ethnic differences are difficult to dispense with.
01:13:42.800 It's not easy to make them go away. You can say, well, the tests aren't culture fair. Well, here's a test of that.
01:13:49.280 So imagine you test group A with an IQ test, and you test group B with an IQ test,
01:13:55.280 and then you look at their actual performance in whatever you're predicting.
01:13:59.600 If the test was biased against ethnic group A, then it would under-predict their performance,
01:14:05.760 and that doesn't happen. Now you could say, well, there's systemic bias in the performance measures
01:14:11.200 and the potential measures, and that's a possibility. All right.
01:14:17.040 Now, one other thing about that.
01:14:20.160 There's a real danger in the ethnicity IQ debate, and the danger is that we confuse intelligence with
01:14:27.920 value, or that we include, we confuse intelligence with, yeah, with human value. That's a better way of thinking about it.
01:14:36.400 And one of the things that we're going to have to understand here is that that's a mistake.
01:14:41.680 is that being more intelligent doesn't make you a better person. That's not the case. It makes you more
01:14:47.680 useful for complex cognitive operations. But you can be pretty damn horrific as a genius son of a
01:14:54.400 bitch. Right? It's morally neutral. And we also know that from the psychometric data, by the way.
01:14:59.200 There doesn't seem to be any relationship whatsoever between intelligence and virtue.
01:15:03.200 And so, if it does turn out that nature and the fates do not align with our egalitarian
01:15:09.280 presuppositions, which is highly probable, we shouldn't therefore make the mistake of assuming that
01:15:14.240 if group A or person A is lower on one of these attributes than group B or person B, that that is
01:15:21.360 somehow reflective of their intrinsic value as human beings. That's a big mistake.
01:15:32.000 I don't have anything else to say about that.
01:15:35.760 Okay. So, I had three more questions, and so maybe slightly shorter answers to these three,
01:15:43.440 like maybe around... Well, hopefully they're simpler questions.
01:15:46.320 You know, average five minutes, maybe, and then we will open it up. So, another taboo is to
01:15:56.480 celebrate European culture. Multiculturalists get pretty unhappy when Europeans start expressing
01:16:04.240 pride in their culture or heritage. Many, especially on the left, do not draw much of a distinction,
01:16:10.880 at least in practice, between European pride and white supremacy.
01:16:15.760 You care about freedom of the individual, the individual's freedom to think, to speak,
01:16:20.960 to associate, in short, to act as he sees fit without external compulsion, as long as he doesn't
01:16:27.360 infringe on the similar liberties of others. Professor Ricardo Duchesne, a historical sociologist
01:16:34.080 and professor at the University of New Brunswick, argues that, quote, individualism is a unique
01:16:39.680 attribute of European peoples. Quote, it has been exported to some degree to other nations,
01:16:46.480 but in my view, it is not something that comes to them naturally.
01:16:50.000 So, he continues, quote, you can't play the game of we're all individuals. We have to affirm
01:16:58.240 and be proud of our ethnic identity and heritage to preserve the West's curious individualism.
01:17:05.760 If Europeans become minorities in the West, he argues, the founding idea of the West, that no entity,
01:17:13.360 not an individual, not a community, not the state, can justly deprive an individual of life, liberty,
01:17:19.120 or property by force, no matter what the individual's race, class, or religion.
01:17:25.520 I wouldn't be surprised if Duchesne, when he made this statement, had you in mind.
01:17:30.320 Look, the medieval Europeans identified seven deadly sins for a reason, and one of them was pride.
01:17:43.040 It's like, let's make the presumption. I do believe that, for reasons that aren't obvious,
01:17:52.000 that the West has got some things right. We've got the sovereignty of the individual right.
01:17:57.920 That's the most fundamental thing we've got right. We've articulated that, I think, in a remarkable way,
01:18:03.360 not only theologically, philosophically, in our body of laws, in our societies. And one of the
01:18:09.920 consequences of that, as it's had its effect on the rest of the world, is that everyone is getting
01:18:15.360 richer quite fast, and that's a really good thing. Okay, having said that, it's like, am I proud of that?
01:18:22.080 It's like, I didn't do that. What the hell? Pride. What's that? That's not the right response.
01:18:30.960 How about responsibility for that? How would that be? It's like, you're part of this great
01:18:38.320 and unlikely set of propositions, this strange set of propositions that says that in some
01:18:44.880 ineffable manner, the poorest person is as valuable as the king.
01:18:51.120 It's like, how the hell did we ever figure that out? That's an impossible thing to think,
01:18:55.520 and yet that's the bedrock of our legal system. That's nothing to be proud of. That's something
01:19:01.040 to tremble before, to take on as an ethical burden, and not to wave a flag for how wonderful you are that
01:19:08.640 you happen to have the same skin color as some of the people who thought that up. It's not the right
01:19:14.080 response. It's like, it's to open your eyes and recognize that as a miracle, and a relatively new
01:19:22.160 miracle on the world stage, and to participate in the process of upholding that in your personal and
01:19:28.080 your public life. That's not pride in European tradition. Like, when I go to Europe, and I love going
01:19:34.880 to Europe, and the European cities are, they're unbelievable masterpieces, which is why they're
01:19:39.920 completely flooded by pilgrims, tourists, pilgrims, who go there to look at the beauty. It's like,
01:19:46.320 I don't feel pride about that. I feel like I have something to live up to. That's not the same thing,
01:19:53.520 man. And so these right-wingers in this, it's like, look what we've done. It's like, no, it's not you
01:19:59.520 that did that. That's something, man. You gotta have your act together before you would dare to say,
01:20:05.840 well, that was me. It's like, yeah, sure, sure it was you. Yeah, right. No, that's hard to stand up and
01:20:13.600 take your place in that, in that kind of historical process, that unlikely miraculous historical process.
01:20:20.800 Not to just feel ashamed at the way that you're presently constituted. In the face of that means
01:20:26.640 that you're deluded, and you're using your great fortune at being a beneficiary of that system.
01:20:36.480 Look at what we've got here, this great peace that we're inhabiting right now. You're using your unearned,
01:20:47.200 the unearned gift that's been granted to you as a source of personal pride in your accomplishments due to
01:20:54.400 your skin. It's like, no, not good, not a good argument. So, and that doesn't mean that,
01:21:02.720 well, there's nothing valuable about European culture. There's plenty, there's plenty about it
01:21:08.560 that's valuable. It's not even so clear to what degree it's European. I mean, it came out of the
01:21:12.560 Middle East, you know. I mean, who, it's so muddle-headed that you hardly know where to start.
01:21:19.360 So, hopefully that was less than five minutes. There we go. Dispensed with the radical right-wingers
01:21:27.040 in four minutes.
01:21:27.680 I've heard a number of interesting things about Islam from you and one of your intellectual soulmates,
01:21:33.920 Camille Paglia. Paglia says that men and women benefit in many ways from living in largely separate
01:21:41.120 worlds, as they did in traditional European societies and obviously as they do in much of the Muslim world
01:21:47.200 today. Relatedly, Paglia considers passionate masculinity a critical force for defending,
01:21:53.920 sustaining, and advancing civilization. And she argues that passionate masculinity, while virtually
01:21:59.680 moribund in the Western middle and upper classes, is alive and well in the Muslim world.
01:22:06.080 You have expressed some sympathy for the Muslim critique of the West, its godlessness, its spiritual
01:22:12.160 void, its materialism, its technology-induced removal from life's elemental realities.
01:22:19.040 You've said, it is extraordinarily naive to believe that the differences between European culture
01:22:24.640 and Islamic culture are not about anything fundamental. You've expressed concern that Islam is a totalizing
01:22:32.400 system. And in a quote that stood out to me, you said in a Patreon chat on YouTube that in your view,
01:22:39.600 quote, the only countries in the world that are essentially worth living in, in any real sense,
01:22:45.280 are the ones that are predicated on the Judeo-Christian tradition and manifested in the Western body of
01:22:50.720 laws, unquote. So an open-ended question. How would you synthesize your perspective on Islam and the fact
01:22:57.840 that the Muslim populations of Europe and Canada, a product of recent immigration, are growing and
01:23:03.520 reproducing much faster than the European-descended populations in these countries?
01:23:10.080 Man, you guys really did spend a lot of time coming up with troublesome questions, didn't you?
01:23:18.880 We can, we can end with that.
01:23:19.600 See, the problem is, the problem, one of the problems is, is that I'm an ignorant man.
01:23:25.280 And there's lots of things that I don't know. You know, and I don't know, I don't understand Islam.
01:23:31.760 I don't know enough about it to be an intelligent commentary on it. I've done my best to
01:23:38.400 peck away at the edges. But, you know, it would require multiple years of study to understand the
01:23:46.240 similarities and differences between the two viewpoints. It looks to me like what Islam did was take
01:23:56.480 a group of radically disparate tribes and unite them under a single ethos. Of course, the Muslim
01:24:06.080 civilization expanded more rapidly than any other civilization ever had and occupied a very large
01:24:12.960 part of the world. Which, of course, it still does. Perhaps there's something to be said for that unifying tendency.
01:24:31.680 There's a problem. And maybe this is at the core of the problem. There's no distinction between church
01:24:40.400 and state in Islam. And there is a distinction between church and state in the West.
01:24:49.520 It isn't obvious to me, if it's the case that our culture is grounded in an underlying,
01:24:58.080 let's call it literary metaphysics, something like that, a religious metaphysic.
01:25:04.320 Part of the bedrock of our culture is the idea of the separation between church and state.
01:25:10.400 And as far as I can tell, that idea doesn't exist in the Muslim world. And so I cannot understand how
01:25:17.280 that faith is commensurate with the institutions of the West. It doesn't seem to me that there's any
01:25:24.320 evidence that it's commensurate. Because the number of Islamic democracies is, let's call it, finite.
01:25:32.240 The best example has probably been Turkey. And Turkey, as far as I can tell, isn't doing that well at the
01:25:39.120 moment on the democratic front. And it looked like the great shining hope. And a lot of that was a
01:25:44.400 consequence of secularization.
01:25:55.200 You know, I've spent a lot of time, when I was writing Maps of Meaning, for example,
01:25:59.520 looking for commonalities among religious viewpoints. And I was able to find deep commonalities,
01:26:05.360 I thought, between Buddhism and Christianity, and Daoism and Christianity, and Hinduism and Christianity,
01:26:10.640 for that matter, was a lot harder when it came to Islam. It's not a faith that's opened itself up to me.
01:26:16.320 I don't understand it well. But I hope that people of goodwill can build a bridge between the two cultures.
01:26:36.000 And finally, you've stated, quote, women are more agreeable by nature than men. And agreeable people are
01:26:54.480 compassionate toward those they see as suffering. And that seems to include any minority, especially when
01:27:01.040 you combine that with a kind of neo-Marxist doctrine, that claims that anyone who has an advantage,
01:27:06.960 swiped it. Unquote. Women have been voting for a century now. And this, you suggested in a Patreon
01:27:14.000 chat, may help to explain why, in the West, we've collectively decided that, quote, egalitarianism and
01:27:21.520 conflict avoidance constitute the two highest virtues, and trump everything else, including free speech. Unquote.
01:27:29.200 Unquote. Unquote.
01:27:30.880 You've said that in the West today, we are, perhaps, for the first time in history,
01:27:35.840 seeing on the political left or on segments of the political left, quote,
01:27:40.320 what a female totalitarianism would look like, unquote. Elaborate.
01:27:50.720 I did a research project with one of my students. We haven't published it, unfortunately, for a variety of reasons.
01:27:56.560 she's been quite ill and I've been quite preoccupied, so those are the two barriers at the moment.
01:28:02.920 But the first thing we wanted to do was to find out whether there was actually such a thing as political correctness.
01:28:09.620 You can actually do that technically as a social scientist, so what you do is, this is what we did,
01:28:14.120 is we got a group of people together and we collected a whole bunch of statements
01:28:17.740 that seemed to be vaguely associated with the idea of political correctness.
01:28:21.320 So maybe you could think, well, it's a media construct, and that's fine.
01:28:24.140 You can go analyze media statements, and then you can collect ideas that seem to be associated with whatever political correctness is.
01:28:31.640 We collected about 400 of those.
01:28:34.120 And then we asked, we turned them into questions, and we asked a thousand people for their opinions.
01:28:39.040 Then you can do this statistical process called a factor analysis,
01:28:42.820 and it's the same thing that pulls out a single factor of IQ from a group of questions, for example.
01:28:47.180 It's the same thing that produced the Big Five personality model.
01:28:49.760 And what the factor analysis does is tell you if questions group together.
01:28:56.440 So let's say you have Opinion A.
01:28:58.940 Well, if you have Opinion A, if there's a hundred of you, everyone who has Opinion A also has Opinion B and Opinion C.
01:29:05.180 And if that's the case, then those clump together.
01:29:08.180 There's something about them that's the same.
01:29:10.320 Now, what we could have found was that when we analyzed these 400 questions, there was like 50 clumps.
01:29:16.400 And so that would have blown the, there's such a thing as political correctness hypothesis out of the water.
01:29:22.260 But that isn't what happened.
01:29:23.520 We found two clumps, one of which looked like something like moderate leftism,
01:29:28.200 and the other that looked very much like totalitarian political correctness.
01:29:32.060 And it was a very, very robust finding, and we replicated it as well.
01:29:37.240 She did this for her master's thesis, by the way.
01:29:41.200 And then we looked at what predicted these beliefs.
01:29:44.300 First of all, the correlation between the moderate leftist clump of questions and the radical leftist clump of questions actually wasn't very high.
01:29:52.140 And so one of the things that we surmise is that there's an actual division on the left between the moderates and the radicals.
01:29:58.380 And that's just not played itself out.
01:30:00.620 And I think you can actually see that happening by the proclivity of the radical leftists to devour themselves, right?
01:30:06.760 So which happens on a very regular basis.
01:30:08.720 Or perhaps you can see it in the proclivity of the radical leftists to go after the moderates when the moderates criticize the radicals, whatever.
01:30:17.340 So there's two clumps to political correctness.
01:30:19.840 Both of them were predicted by trait agreeableness, which is one of the traits that women score higher on than men.
01:30:26.700 And it's the antithesis of aggression, by the way, and by also by being female, which was a real shock to us because most of the so let's say females and males differ with regards to some outcome.
01:30:37.740 You try to figure out why that is might be just because they're female, but there's all sorts of welcome to the Jordan B. Peterson podcast.
01:30:46.700 You can support these podcasts by donating to Dr. Peterson's Patreon, the link to which can be found in the description.
01:30:53.580 Dr. Peterson's self-development programs, self-authoring, can be found at selfauthoring.com.
01:31:00.020 Thank you all for coming.
01:31:17.340 I'm going to begin by introducing Jordan Peterson, and then I will talk a little bit about how this event is going to work, and then we'll get underway.
01:31:26.280 So Jordan Peterson has been called, quote, one of the most important thinkers to emerge on the world stage for many years by The Spectator.
01:31:34.620 He has been a dishwasher, gas jockey bartender, short order cook, beekeeper, oil derrick bit re-tipper, plywood mill laborer, and railway line worker.
01:31:44.280 He's taught mythology to lawyers, doctors, and businessmen, consulted for the UN Secretary General's high-level panel on sustainable development,
01:31:52.560 helped his clinical clients manage depression, obsessive compulsive disorder, anxiety, and schizophrenia,
01:31:58.180 served as an advisor to senior partners of major law firms, identified thousands of promising entrepreneurs on six different continents,
01:32:06.180 and lectured extensively in North America and Europe.
01:32:09.180 He has flown a hammerhead roll in a carbon fiber stunt plane, piloted a mahogany racing sailboat around Alcatraz Island,
01:32:17.180 explored an Arizona meteorite crater with a group of astronauts, built a Native American longhouse on the upper floor of his Toronto home,
01:32:25.180 and been inducted into the coastal, Pacific Kwaukwaukwaukwauk tribe.
01:32:33.180 Malcolm Gladwell discussed psychology with him while researching his books.
01:32:36.180 Norman Doidge is a good friend and collaborator.
01:32:39.180 Thriller writer Greg Hurwitz employed several of his, quote, valuable things as a plot feature in his number one international bestseller,
01:32:46.180 Orphan X, and he worked with Jim B제가, former RIM CEO, on a project for the UN Secretary General.
01:32:54.180 With his students and colleagues, Dr. Peterson has published more than a hundred scientific papers, transforming the modern understanding of personality, and revolutionized the psychology of religion with his now classic book, Maps of Meaning, The Architecture of Belief.
01:33:09.440 As a Harvard professor, he was nominated for the prestigious Levinson Teaching Prize and is regarded by his current University of Toronto students as one of three truly life-changing teachers.
01:33:20.460 Dr. Peterson is a Quora Most Viewed Writer in Values and Principles and Parenting and Education.
01:33:26.240 He has innumerable Twitter followers and Facebook followers.
01:33:30.040 His YouTube channel now has about a million subscribers.
01:33:33.360 And his classroom lectures on mythology were turned into a popular 13-part TV series on TV Ontario.
01:33:41.560 Dr. Peterson's online self-help program, The Self-Authoring Suite, has been featured in O! The Oprah Magazine on CBC Radio,
01:33:48.600 and on NPR's national website.
01:33:51.700 It has helped over 150,000 people resolve the problems of their past and radically improve their future.
01:33:57.940 Without further ado, please join me in welcoming Dr. Jordan Peterson to Lafayette County.
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01:36:58.400 So the way this is going to work is that I'm going to have a conversation with Dr. Peterson for 90 minutes,
01:37:06.200 and then there is going to be a 90-minute Q&A.
01:37:09.200 This event is being video recorded and will be published online for non-commercial, non-advertising purposes.
01:37:16.620 During the Q&A session, when you are handed a microphone, please speak directly into it.
01:37:21.420 Our viewers on YouTube will appreciate it.
01:37:23.940 And finally, I am a moderator between Professor Peterson and the audience,
01:37:28.380 but also a biased participant in this conversation.
01:37:32.000 Okay.
01:37:33.640 Well, it's a relief that's all over.
01:37:37.940 Okay, so I thought we would start things off with this.
01:37:42.780 I assume that many in the audience are curious but relatively unfamiliar with you
01:37:47.940 or have heard a lot about you without ever reading or listening to you.
01:37:52.060 So I thought we might start with you introducing yourself to the audience
01:37:55.780 and maybe telling them some of the main things that you think they might be interested in knowing about you.
01:38:01.740 Well, I guess the most relevant detail is that I spent about 15 years writing this
01:38:21.140 and I worked on it about three hours a day, every day during that period of time.
01:38:31.700 At the same time, I was finishing off my doctorate and I started lecturing at Harvard,
01:38:37.460 but I was doing that continually and thinking about it continually
01:38:42.220 and reading the material that I needed to read in order to write the book continually as well.
01:38:48.640 And I didn't realize until more recently that what I was doing
01:38:54.820 was at the heart of the postmodern conundrum, I would say.
01:39:01.940 I was very much obsessed by the events of the Cold War
01:39:05.660 for reasons I don't exactly understand.
01:39:08.500 I had a lot of dreams about nuclear annihilation for years on end.
01:39:12.860 I mean, it wasn't that uncommon to be obsessed by that when I grew up.
01:39:16.420 I mean, because it was a preoccupation of everyone who was my age, I suppose.
01:39:21.440 There were lots of years, probably between 1962, I would say, probably in 1985,
01:39:28.060 where people were pretty convinced that the probability of a nuclear war was high,
01:39:33.800 much higher than people consider now.
01:39:37.540 And I was curious about this.
01:39:42.340 I was curious about why everyone wasn't obsessed about this all the time,
01:39:45.460 first of all, because it seemed like the fundamental issue
01:39:47.880 that two armed camps were pointing something in excess of 25,000 hydrogen bombs each at each other.
01:39:56.980 I couldn't understand how anybody could concentrate on anything other than that,
01:40:00.560 since it seemed so utterly insane.
01:40:04.980 And I was curious.
01:40:08.960 What was going on exactly?
01:40:12.780 Was this...
01:40:13.880 One explanation was that there's a very large number of ways
01:40:17.080 that human beings could organize themselves in society,
01:40:19.820 like a large number of games that we could hypothetically play.
01:40:22.700 And they're all equally arbitrary in an equally arbitrary universe.
01:40:27.020 And that the communists had decided to play one kind of game,
01:40:30.380 and the Western free market democratic types had decided to play another game,
01:40:36.540 and it was all arbitrary in some sense.
01:40:39.540 And so that's what I was trying to figure out,
01:40:42.180 was what the hell was going on with this conflict?
01:40:45.340 And was it merely a battle between two hypothetically equally valid interpretations of the world,
01:40:52.560 drawn from a set of extraordinarily large potential interpretations,
01:40:57.000 which I think would be essentially a post-modernist take on it.
01:41:00.780 And I think I went into the problem neutrally,
01:41:06.000 in that I didn't think I knew what the answer was.
01:41:10.100 You know, so lots of times when you talk to people who think,
01:41:12.960 or when you talk to people who write,
01:41:14.420 they have an idea, and it's right,
01:41:16.440 and then they write whatever they're writing to justify the idea.
01:41:19.460 That's how they look at it.
01:41:20.740 But it's not a good way to write.
01:41:22.680 A good way to write and think is to have a problem,
01:41:26.080 and then try to solve it, right?
01:41:28.000 To actually solve it,
01:41:29.000 not to demonstrate that your a priori commitment is true.
01:41:33.720 And, you know, one of the signs I would say
01:41:37.420 that my a priori commitments weren't the purpose for the writing
01:41:41.060 was that I walked away from that 15-year project
01:41:44.320 with a view of the world that was completely different
01:41:47.780 than the view that I had going in
01:41:50.200 and learned all sorts of things,
01:41:52.260 especially about the role of narrative
01:41:54.520 and religious thinking in life
01:41:57.560 that I had no idea was possible when I started.
01:42:02.740 And a lot of that was a consequence of reading
01:42:04.740 the great people who I read deeply.
01:42:06.980 You know, I read, well,
01:42:09.400 all the great works of Friedrich Nietzsche
01:42:11.620 and the great works of Dostoevsky and Tolstoy
01:42:15.300 and most of Jung's collected works,
01:42:17.700 everything that had been published up to that point
01:42:19.580 and a very large swath of the relevant clinical literature,
01:42:24.280 the great clinicians of the 20th century
01:42:26.000 and a huge stack of neuroscience
01:42:28.100 and et cetera, et cetera,
01:42:29.880 because I was reading constantly during this time.
01:42:31.900 And I realized some things that I think are true.
01:42:37.500 The communists were wrong.
01:42:40.340 They weren't, and not just a little bit wrong
01:42:42.480 and not wrong in some arbitrary way.
01:42:44.520 They were playing a game
01:42:45.460 that human beings cannot play
01:42:47.060 without descending into a murderous catastrophe.
01:42:51.240 And there's something about what we've done in the West
01:42:53.680 that's correct.
01:42:55.980 And it's complicated because
01:42:57.980 our cognitive structures,
01:43:01.220 that's one way of thinking about it,
01:43:02.520 or our sociopolitical arrangements,
01:43:04.700 they actually parallel one another in an important way,
01:43:08.360 are grounded in a strange set of axioms.
01:43:14.860 And the axioms aren't rational precisely.
01:43:17.920 It's more like they're narrative.
01:43:19.680 They're narrative axioms.
01:43:21.600 They're stories.
01:43:23.020 And the story of the West
01:43:24.080 is that the individual is sovereign over the group
01:43:26.380 and that that's the solution to tribalism.
01:43:30.100 And I think that's the correct solution.
01:43:33.060 Now, what that means metaphysically,
01:43:36.080 because it's also embedded in our religious doctrines, right?
01:43:38.840 Because especially in Christianity,
01:43:41.120 although not exclusively to Christianity,
01:43:43.440 the individual is sovereign.
01:43:45.000 The suffering individual is sovereign.
01:43:47.580 And there's something about that
01:43:48.660 that's true at least psychologically.
01:43:51.280 And I don't know what that might mean metaphysically.
01:43:54.440 Because who the hell knows
01:43:55.680 what anything means metaphysically, right?
01:43:57.520 I mean, your knowledge runs out at some point.
01:44:00.620 Anyways, I worked all these ideas out
01:44:04.320 and then I taught for a long time
01:44:06.020 courses that were based on the ideas.
01:44:08.060 And the courses were very impactful, I would say.
01:44:11.160 They had the same impact on the people that I was teaching
01:44:13.280 as walking through the material had on me.
01:44:17.320 And while it was out of that
01:44:19.720 that all this political controversy arose,
01:44:23.580 I mean, I was never focused on political controversy,
01:44:28.820 even though I'm interested in politics
01:44:30.900 and I thought at many points in my life
01:44:32.960 about a political career.
01:44:34.720 I always put it aside for a psychological
01:44:37.460 and philosophical career, I would say.
01:44:40.780 And...
01:44:40.980 But things started to shift badly in Canada
01:44:45.340 over the last five years.
01:44:47.320 And our government dared
01:44:49.060 to implement legislation that compelled speech.
01:44:53.660 And one of the things that I had learned
01:44:55.020 when I was doing all this background investigation
01:44:56.940 was that there isn't a higher value
01:44:59.860 than free speech.
01:45:01.920 It isn't free speech.
01:45:03.000 It's not the right way of thinking about it
01:45:04.360 because it's free thought.
01:45:05.740 And even that's not the right way of thinking about it
01:45:07.780 because thought is the precursor to action and life.
01:45:11.800 So there's no difference between free speech
01:45:14.140 and free life.
01:45:15.680 And I was just not willing to
01:45:17.760 put up with restrictions on my free life.
01:45:22.060 And so I made some videos
01:45:23.760 pointing out the pathology of this doctrine
01:45:27.120 and the fact that the government
01:45:28.340 had radically overreached its appropriate limits.
01:45:32.720 And well then, you know,
01:45:35.440 well, and maybe you don't know,
01:45:36.680 but I've been enveloped in continual scandal
01:45:39.980 since, for 18 months as a consequence.
01:45:43.300 Which to me, as a clinician,
01:45:46.040 indicates that I got my damn diagnosis right.
01:45:49.280 Right?
01:45:49.740 It's not about pronouns.
01:45:52.400 It's about something a lot deeper than that.
01:45:55.100 And I stand by that.
01:45:56.380 I believe that it's the case.
01:45:57.680 And I don't think that we would all be here tonight
01:45:59.720 if that wasn't the situation.
01:46:01.980 So...
01:46:02.380 So I wanted my first
01:46:05.980 or my next question
01:46:07.920 to be about Lafayette.
01:46:11.240 And so I thought I would read
01:46:12.840 a couple of Facebook posts
01:46:15.760 that certain students who are critical of you
01:46:18.220 read in the lead-up to this event
01:46:20.080 and just ask you to respond to them.
01:46:21.840 Okay.
01:46:23.640 So this is a student writing,
01:46:25.460 Lafayette College,
01:46:26.420 I am utterly disappointed
01:46:27.580 that you're allowing this
01:46:28.520 to take place on our campus.
01:46:30.100 I thought we went through this last semester
01:46:32.040 with Roaming Millennial.
01:46:34.160 Inviting hateful speakers
01:46:35.420 who make wildly unsubstantiated claims
01:46:37.740 is not going to fly with the student body.
01:46:40.280 I get it.
01:46:41.040 The Mill Series events are private
01:46:42.700 and not endorsed by the college.
01:46:44.440 But you absolutely have the power
01:46:46.240 to make a statement on this.
01:46:47.960 The fact that you're not
01:46:48.940 is an embarrassment to our community.
01:46:51.040 If you believe this man
01:46:52.420 is a legitimate source of knowledge
01:46:54.920 because he has a degree in clinical psychology,
01:46:57.800 feel free to ask our psychology department faculty
01:47:00.460 and counseling center staff
01:47:01.860 about the validity of his claims.
01:47:04.380 I'm certain they would not endorse this speaker.
01:47:07.280 Do better, in all caps.
01:47:10.100 For those of you unfamiliar,
01:47:11.540 Jordan Peterson is known for
01:47:13.160 denouncing the Me Too movement,
01:47:15.580 claiming that women are in no way
01:47:17.300 marginalized in the West,
01:47:19.480 arguing against the existence
01:47:20.880 of gender-neutral pronouns,
01:47:23.120 arguing against gun control in the U.S.,
01:47:24.960 and claiming that identity politics
01:47:27.600 and social justice movements
01:47:29.220 are part of a devious Marxist agenda.
01:47:32.400 And then another student responded,
01:47:33.860 and this is briefer,
01:47:35.280 college conservatives know
01:47:36.800 that if they bring in a speaker
01:47:38.260 who is willing to blatantly insult
01:47:40.180 a portion of the audience
01:47:41.440 and the libs get angry enough about this
01:47:44.220 for good reason,
01:47:45.400 then they may get an op-ed written about them
01:47:47.480 in the New York Times.
01:47:48.860 As a result,
01:47:50.020 there are a whole group of hacks,
01:47:51.880 like Milo and Peterson,
01:47:53.140 who get famous and invited
01:47:55.200 purely for their promise
01:47:56.560 to misgender trans students
01:47:58.540 and advocate provocative
01:48:00.260 but ultimately toothless arguments
01:48:02.120 about social Darwinist race theory.
01:48:05.120 What I'm saying is that
01:48:06.420 you have every right to be pissed.
01:48:08.140 Jordan Peterson is a harmful moron,
01:48:10.600 but know that...
01:48:11.280 But know that you being pissed
01:48:14.560 is also 100% at the point
01:48:16.360 of why he was invited.
01:48:17.980 He's not a conservative.
01:48:19.420 He's just a guy who's mildly racist enough
01:48:21.880 to offend college liberals
01:48:23.580 and therefore secure wins
01:48:25.820 for the cultural right.
01:48:32.620 Comparatively mild stuff.
01:48:35.980 It's the chattering buzz
01:48:37.920 of ideologically possessed demons.
01:48:41.460 So there's nothing in it
01:48:43.700 that's not entirely predictable.
01:48:46.120 That's one of the things you know,
01:48:48.000 you notice when you're talking to people.
01:48:49.720 If you want to find out
01:48:51.420 whether the person is there
01:48:52.920 or the ideology is there,
01:48:55.000 you listen to see
01:48:56.320 if you're hearing anything
01:48:57.460 that someone else
01:48:58.800 of the same ideological mindset
01:49:00.780 couldn't have told you.
01:49:02.700 You know, like,
01:49:03.280 I've had thousands of conversations
01:49:04.840 with people
01:49:05.480 because I've spent 20 years
01:49:06.860 as a clinical psychologist.
01:49:08.200 And one of the things
01:49:09.040 I've learned about people
01:49:10.000 is that they're unbelievably interesting.
01:49:11.880 If you get someone to sit down
01:49:14.040 and you move past
01:49:16.340 the superficial
01:49:17.100 which you can actually do
01:49:18.180 quite rapidly
01:49:18.940 they'll tell you
01:49:19.900 all sorts of things
01:49:20.800 that only they know
01:49:22.600 that are unbelievably enlightening
01:49:24.740 about their own
01:49:25.940 peculiar problems
01:49:27.460 about the way
01:49:28.000 they look at the world
01:49:28.780 about their
01:49:29.320 their idiosyncratic
01:49:31.260 familial dynamics
01:49:32.540 like just fascinating
01:49:34.280 personal stuff.
01:49:35.580 It's the stuff
01:49:36.160 of great novels
01:49:37.140 you know
01:49:37.480 and just
01:49:37.780 and this is
01:49:38.520 ordinary people.
01:49:40.400 I don't really think
01:49:41.280 there is an ordinary person
01:49:42.740 exactly.
01:49:43.880 There's the facade
01:49:45.100 of ordinariness
01:49:45.960 but behind that
01:49:46.960 people are very rarely ordinary.
01:49:49.500 And so
01:49:49.740 the conversations
01:49:50.940 are almost instantaneously
01:49:52.860 fascinating
01:49:53.460 and one of the
01:49:54.280 guidelines that I used
01:49:55.920 in my clinical practice
01:49:57.060 constantly was
01:49:57.960 like I had this sense
01:49:59.340 I probably learned this
01:50:00.380 mostly from Carl Rogers
01:50:01.540 was that
01:50:02.140 if the conversation
01:50:03.580 wasn't really interesting
01:50:05.100 then we weren't doing
01:50:06.480 anything that was
01:50:07.160 therapeutically useful.
01:50:09.000 But the interesting
01:50:10.020 all of the interesting
01:50:10.920 elements of it
01:50:11.720 were very very personal
01:50:13.700 and so
01:50:14.800 to replace this
01:50:16.320 and I learned this
01:50:16.980 mostly from
01:50:17.560 Alexander Solzhenitsyn
01:50:19.120 in his detailed analysis
01:50:20.420 of what I would call
01:50:21.660 ideological possession
01:50:22.760 he talked
01:50:24.140 he talked about
01:50:25.540 people he met
01:50:26.260 in the Gulag camps
01:50:27.180 who were
01:50:27.540 under the sway
01:50:28.620 of rigid
01:50:30.140 communist orthodoxy
01:50:32.080 and noted very clearly
01:50:33.440 that
01:50:33.760 it was like
01:50:34.700 there was a crank
01:50:35.360 in some sense
01:50:36.000 on the side of their head
01:50:37.040 and you could just
01:50:37.680 crank the crank
01:50:38.700 and out would come
01:50:39.620 the ideological dogma
01:50:42.260 and it's all entirely predictable
01:50:44.220 and people who are
01:50:45.500 in a situation like that
01:50:46.500 don't understand
01:50:47.340 that they're possessed
01:50:48.300 by an idea
01:50:49.180 right
01:50:49.520 Carl Jung said
01:50:50.600 people don't have ideas
01:50:51.800 ideas have people
01:50:53.240 and it's like
01:50:54.040 so
01:50:54.260 there's nothing in that
01:50:56.680 that's anything other
01:50:58.300 than exactly
01:50:58.980 what you would predict
01:50:59.820 and then there's
01:51:00.740 a deeper issue too
01:51:01.760 and this is one
01:51:02.560 that I think
01:51:03.020 has bedeviled me
01:51:03.880 ever since I
01:51:04.560 made my initial videos
01:51:06.400 which is
01:51:06.880 it's impossible
01:51:10.120 for those
01:51:10.820 on the radical left
01:51:12.020 to admit
01:51:12.800 that anyone
01:51:13.380 who opposes
01:51:14.160 what they're doing
01:51:15.000 might be reasonable
01:51:16.140 because
01:51:16.900 what that would mean
01:51:18.040 would be
01:51:18.440 that you could be reasonable
01:51:19.500 and oppose the radical left
01:51:20.960 and that would imply
01:51:22.200 that what the radical left
01:51:23.380 was doing
01:51:23.840 wasn't reasonable
01:51:24.980 and so
01:51:25.940 instead of dealing
01:51:27.000 with the fact
01:51:27.560 that I actually
01:51:28.240 happened to be
01:51:28.840 quite reasonable
01:51:29.600 the attempt
01:51:30.780 is to
01:51:31.720 assume that
01:51:33.120 anyone who objects
01:51:35.020 must be part
01:51:36.100 of the radical right
01:51:37.080 it's like
01:51:37.640 well
01:51:37.980 actually no
01:51:39.420 there's lots of space
01:51:41.700 between the radical left
01:51:42.960 and the radical right
01:51:44.080 there's the moderate
01:51:45.100 reasonable left
01:51:46.340 for example
01:51:47.060 and you
01:51:47.720 and then there's the center
01:51:48.980 and then there's the moderate
01:51:50.200 reasonable right
01:51:51.160 and then there's the far right
01:51:52.420 and then there's the extreme right
01:51:53.760 all of that
01:51:54.580 exists in opposition
01:51:55.620 to the radical left
01:51:56.800 but it's very convenient
01:51:58.000 for the radicals
01:51:58.860 on the left
01:51:59.280 to say
01:51:59.640 oh well
01:52:00.060 you don't buy
01:52:01.440 our doctrine
01:52:02.140 and then
01:52:03.980 to immediately
01:52:05.480 make the presupposition
01:52:06.840 that you must be
01:52:07.640 the most
01:52:07.980 highness example
01:52:09.140 of that entire array
01:52:10.700 of potential
01:52:11.440 objection
01:52:12.320 it's like
01:52:12.900 yeah well
01:52:13.760 whatever
01:52:14.580 you know
01:52:15.260 it's just not
01:52:16.300 a viable
01:52:17.180 stance
01:52:18.160 and so
01:52:19.060 but it's convenient
01:52:21.440 and it
01:52:22.600 it
01:52:23.180 it's a bad thing
01:52:25.120 because it drives
01:52:25.720 polarization
01:52:26.340 and that's a bad thing
01:52:28.120 but it also
01:52:28.960 it doesn't address
01:52:30.380 the issue
01:52:30.960 so one of the things
01:52:33.060 that I've been thinking
01:52:34.160 about deeply
01:52:34.880 over the last couple
01:52:35.820 of weeks
01:52:36.180 and plan to write about
01:52:37.120 here's a mystery
01:52:37.960 for all of you
01:52:38.740 I don't care what
01:52:39.700 your political background is
01:52:41.020 it isn't like
01:52:42.200 I'm anti-left
01:52:43.120 I've made videos
01:52:45.540 documenting this
01:52:46.620 I know why
01:52:47.540 there's a left wing
01:52:48.380 there's a left wing
01:52:49.280 because inequality
01:52:50.080 is a problem
01:52:50.840 it's a way worse problem
01:52:52.600 than the radical leftists
01:52:53.800 like to admit
01:52:54.580 because you can't lay it
01:52:55.860 at the feet of capitalism
01:52:56.980 and the free market
01:52:57.940 inequality is a way worse
01:52:59.600 problem than that
01:53:00.640 but it's definitely
01:53:01.760 a problem
01:53:02.320 and because inequality
01:53:03.420 is a problem
01:53:03.980 you need part of the
01:53:04.860 political structure
01:53:05.520 to speak up
01:53:06.240 for the people
01:53:07.180 who end up arrayed
01:53:08.940 at the bottom
01:53:09.580 of hierarchies
01:53:10.480 it's crucial
01:53:11.720 someone has to speak
01:53:13.000 for them
01:53:13.380 that's the place
01:53:14.460 of the left
01:53:15.060 but then
01:53:16.280 but then consider this
01:53:17.740 so we can get
01:53:18.900 we can state that
01:53:20.020 the right speaks
01:53:20.920 for hierarchy
01:53:21.600 and the left speaks
01:53:22.700 on behalf of those
01:53:23.660 who are oppressed
01:53:24.200 by inequality
01:53:24.900 good
01:53:25.420 we need that dialogue
01:53:26.720 the radical left
01:53:28.680 okay
01:53:30.020 we know from
01:53:31.320 20th century history
01:53:32.520 that things can go
01:53:33.860 too far on the right
01:53:34.800 no one disputes that
01:53:36.200 and that things can go
01:53:37.380 too far on the left
01:53:38.320 and we also know
01:53:39.360 that when things
01:53:40.060 go too far
01:53:40.980 it's seriously
01:53:42.140 not good
01:53:42.960 right
01:53:43.720 so when things
01:53:45.120 went too far
01:53:45.680 on the right
01:53:46.160 then we had
01:53:46.680 120 million people
01:53:47.860 die in the second
01:53:48.580 world war
01:53:49.180 and when things
01:53:50.040 went too far
01:53:50.580 on the left
01:53:51.100 we had
01:53:51.720 god only knows
01:53:53.080 how many people
01:53:53.920 murdered as a
01:53:55.020 consequence of
01:53:55.660 internal repression
01:53:56.780 at least 100 million
01:53:58.300 and we risk
01:53:59.360 putting the entire
01:54:00.100 planet
01:54:00.540 we risk
01:54:02.340 putting the planet
01:54:03.760 into flames
01:54:04.600 okay
01:54:05.220 so that's the
01:54:05.960 consequence
01:54:06.640 all right
01:54:08.120 so now
01:54:08.680 in the aftermath
01:54:09.720 of world war ii
01:54:10.680 let's say
01:54:11.120 we've come to
01:54:11.660 some sort of
01:54:12.300 sociological agreement
01:54:13.500 i would say
01:54:14.060 that you can identify
01:54:14.980 the radical right-wingers
01:54:16.220 when people make
01:54:17.500 claims of racial superiority
01:54:19.080 you put them in a box
01:54:20.800 and you say
01:54:21.220 well you're outside
01:54:21.900 of acceptable political discourse
01:54:23.440 and so you saw that
01:54:25.200 with William F. Buckley
01:54:26.580 in the 60s
01:54:27.220 when he started
01:54:27.720 his conservative review
01:54:28.820 he dissociated himself
01:54:30.160 from the David Duke types
01:54:31.280 and you saw it
01:54:31.780 more recently
01:54:32.280 with people
01:54:32.860 for example
01:54:33.580 like Ben Shapiro
01:54:34.480 who immediately
01:54:35.080 distanced himself
01:54:35.920 from the Charlottesville types
01:54:37.160 okay
01:54:37.920 so now we
01:54:38.900 we kind of have a sense
01:54:40.040 of where you've
01:54:41.060 crossed the damn line
01:54:42.420 in your ethno-nationalism
01:54:44.460 right
01:54:44.840 as soon as you move
01:54:45.880 into the racial superiority
01:54:47.080 domain
01:54:47.680 ethnic superiority
01:54:48.580 domain
01:54:49.080 it's like
01:54:49.780 no
01:54:50.320 you've got to be dangerous
01:54:52.220 all right
01:54:52.940 here's a question
01:54:54.100 where the hell
01:54:55.420 do you cross the line
01:54:56.440 on the left
01:54:57.300 exactly
01:54:58.900 well
01:55:00.140 the answer is
01:55:01.600 who knows
01:55:02.180 well that's not
01:55:03.220 a very good answer
01:55:04.020 i would say
01:55:04.520 it's incumbent
01:55:05.180 it's incumbent
01:55:06.640 on people
01:55:07.320 in the center
01:55:08.080 and in the moderate left
01:55:09.680 to say
01:55:10.680 look
01:55:11.640 things can go
01:55:13.880 too far
01:55:14.340 on the left
01:55:14.880 and here's how
01:55:15.920 we know
01:55:16.280 that's happened
01:55:17.060 and that hasn't
01:55:18.340 happened
01:55:18.740 at all
01:55:19.260 now i think
01:55:20.500 there's a reason
01:55:21.140 for that
01:55:21.560 i think
01:55:22.120 there's a technical reason
01:55:23.300 as well
01:55:23.660 as a motivational reason
01:55:24.840 two technical reasons
01:55:26.340 it's harder
01:55:27.360 for people on the left
01:55:28.400 to draw boundaries
01:55:29.340 because people on the left
01:55:31.180 aren't boundary drawing types
01:55:33.280 they're boundary dissolving types
01:55:35.560 temperamentally speaking
01:55:36.580 so that's a problem
01:55:37.460 the second problem
01:55:38.680 is
01:55:38.900 it doesn't look to me
01:55:40.220 like there is a smoking pistol
01:55:41.960 on the left
01:55:42.680 that's as obvious
01:55:43.500 as racial superiority doctrines
01:55:45.460 you know
01:55:46.140 it's like
01:55:46.520 in Canada
01:55:47.960 there's a lot of push
01:55:48.920 for this triumvirate
01:55:50.000 of radical ideas
01:55:51.500 diversity
01:55:52.180 inclusivity
01:55:53.100 and equity
01:55:53.680 which
01:55:54.180 diversity
01:55:54.980 it's like
01:55:55.540 well who's against that
01:55:56.640 it's like being against poverty
01:55:58.020 inclusivity
01:55:58.980 well yes
01:55:59.860 of course
01:56:00.360 we want people included
01:56:01.620 equity
01:56:02.700 that's a more bitter pill
01:56:05.280 to swallow
01:56:05.780 because that's equality of outcome
01:56:07.260 and for me
01:56:07.800 that's a marker
01:56:08.580 it's like
01:56:08.960 if you're talking about
01:56:09.820 equality of outcome
01:56:10.780 you've gone too far
01:56:13.060 and if you're talking about
01:56:14.600 diversity
01:56:15.340 inclusivity
01:56:16.220 and
01:56:16.780 equality of outcome
01:56:18.200 equity
01:56:18.780 then you've gone too far
01:56:20.480 and you might disagree
01:56:21.560 you might disagree
01:56:22.600 that's fine
01:56:23.380 disagree
01:56:23.800 if that isn't the marker
01:56:25.660 for going too far
01:56:26.620 then
01:56:26.960 what's the marker
01:56:29.180 because
01:56:30.400 obviously
01:56:31.140 you can go too far
01:56:32.240 and obviously
01:56:33.180 that's not good
01:56:34.160 and
01:56:34.720 to close on that
01:56:36.060 I would also say
01:56:36.820 to the people
01:56:37.360 on the moderate left
01:56:38.360 if you want
01:56:39.820 your doctrines
01:56:40.720 to have
01:56:41.340 purchase
01:56:42.320 and to continue
01:56:43.640 to speak
01:56:44.220 for the
01:56:44.680 for those
01:56:45.820 who stack up
01:56:46.620 at the bottom
01:56:47.180 of inevitable hierarchies
01:56:48.960 then
01:56:49.540 you owe it
01:56:50.360 to yourself
01:56:50.920 to dissociate
01:56:52.060 yourself
01:56:52.540 from the dangerous
01:56:53.460 radicals
01:56:54.220 because otherwise
01:56:54.920 they invalidate
01:56:56.300 your ideas
01:56:57.120 and that doesn't
01:56:58.320 seem to be
01:56:58.820 you'd think
01:56:59.360 the democrats
01:57:00.000 might have learned
01:57:00.620 that in the last election
01:57:01.700 but they haven't
01:57:03.120 they haven't learned
01:57:03.920 that
01:57:04.240 so
01:57:05.320 well
01:57:07.980 so that's my spiel
01:57:09.040 about those comments
01:57:10.420 I guess
01:57:10.940 okay
01:57:13.840 so
01:57:14.220 you've changed
01:57:15.620 the lives
01:57:16.100 of many young people
01:57:17.260 and adults
01:57:17.820 in this country
01:57:18.540 in the anglosphere
01:57:19.600 in the west
01:57:20.460 in the world
01:57:21.100 you have a massive following
01:57:22.740 my girlfriend's parents
01:57:24.400 call you uncle jordan
01:57:25.400 for example
01:57:26.300 on the other hand
01:57:28.420 and this is just a fact
01:57:29.720 tons of people
01:57:30.480 on the left
01:57:31.140 as we've just seen
01:57:32.340 because of your power
01:57:33.760 and also your frontal attack
01:57:35.280 on a lot of their views
01:57:36.660 hate you
01:57:37.440 and viciously caricature you
01:57:39.560 then there are
01:57:41.000 these other figures
01:57:41.820 like jonathan height
01:57:42.960 and robbie george
01:57:43.920 they have a lot
01:57:44.860 in common with you
01:57:45.700 they are respected academics
01:57:47.300 they are at least
01:57:48.500 relatively well known
01:57:49.740 outside academia
01:57:50.780 they share your critiques
01:57:52.500 of the humanities
01:57:53.340 of student activists
01:57:54.980 of trends
01:57:55.920 in western culture
01:57:56.780 they don't have
01:57:57.880 nearly the following
01:57:58.900 that you do
01:57:59.540 but they also
01:58:00.680 aren't as hated
01:58:01.440 or viciously caricatured
01:58:03.340 moreover
01:58:04.080 they may
01:58:05.160 have changed the minds
01:58:06.860 of more people
01:58:07.580 on college campuses
01:58:08.860 that is
01:58:09.840 people on campuses
01:58:10.960 who have some sympathy
01:58:12.140 for left activists
01:58:13.200 or who may agree
01:58:14.760 with much of what you say
01:58:15.880 but react negatively
01:58:17.060 to confrontation
01:58:17.760 and harsh criticism
01:58:18.960 height has appealed
01:58:20.500 to such individuals
01:58:21.380 by taking the
01:58:22.240 dale carnegie
01:58:23.040 win friends
01:58:24.060 and influence
01:58:24.800 people approach
01:58:26.040 so my questions are
01:58:27.600 first do you agree
01:58:28.740 with this dichotomy
01:58:29.740 second
01:58:30.400 did you consciously
01:58:31.560 choose one path
01:58:32.920 over the other
01:58:33.700 and if so why
01:58:34.540 well
01:58:36.460 I mean
01:58:37.280 with height
01:58:38.500 for example
01:58:39.180 there is more power
01:58:39.960 to him as far
01:58:40.620 as I am concerned
01:58:41.280 you know
01:58:41.680 he has a different
01:58:42.760 temperament than me
01:58:43.820 he is more introverted
01:58:46.660 he is less volatile
01:58:48.220 I would say
01:58:49.000 he is probably
01:58:50.020 more agreeable
01:58:51.040 or more polite
01:58:52.060 anyways
01:58:52.560 and I think
01:58:54.540 that what he is doing
01:58:55.200 is extremely effective
01:58:56.300 especially from
01:58:57.300 the perspective
01:58:57.940 of very carefully
01:58:59.880 documenting
01:59:00.860 the empirical facts
01:59:02.320 about the
01:59:03.560 the ideological
01:59:04.640 what the
01:59:06.880 the increasingly
01:59:08.640 left-leaning
01:59:09.440 ideological tilt
01:59:10.560 of campuses
01:59:11.160 which is something
01:59:11.820 that needs to be
01:59:12.600 explored on empirical
01:59:14.340 grounds
01:59:14.760 so
01:59:15.020 so like I said
01:59:18.260 more power to him
01:59:19.100 and there is nothing
01:59:19.860 wrong with being
01:59:20.480 reasonable
01:59:21.000 I guess
01:59:22.040 and then you asked
01:59:25.420 well is that
01:59:27.040 the right pathway
01:59:27.940 for me
01:59:28.540 it's like
01:59:29.160 well apparently not
01:59:31.540 what happened
01:59:36.060 when I made
01:59:36.560 my initial videos
01:59:37.540 was that
01:59:38.140 you know
01:59:39.380 I had
01:59:40.100 I had spoke
01:59:41.920 I had talked
01:59:42.700 to people a lot
01:59:43.540 I had worked
01:59:44.240 with people a lot
01:59:45.000 about negotiation
01:59:46.000 it's one of the things
01:59:47.400 that I specialized in
01:59:48.760 I would say
01:59:49.160 in my clinical
01:59:49.700 and consulting practice
01:59:50.760 was teaching people
01:59:51.580 how to negotiate
01:59:52.300 and I can tell you
01:59:53.480 some things
01:59:53.920 about negotiating
01:59:54.720 that you might find
01:59:55.540 interesting and useful
01:59:56.740 the first is
01:59:57.820 you can't negotiate
01:59:58.600 from a position
01:59:59.600 of weakness
02:00:00.120 so all of you
02:00:00.920 who are going to be
02:00:01.580 developing your careers
02:00:02.500 in the future
02:00:03.100 you need to understand
02:00:04.200 that if you want to
02:00:05.340 push your career forward
02:00:06.600 well first of all
02:00:07.480 that you do in fact
02:00:08.700 have to push it forward
02:00:10.040 because if you're
02:00:11.400 competent and silent
02:00:13.020 you will be ignored
02:00:15.180 and you know
02:00:17.140 that's rough
02:00:17.820 because you might think
02:00:18.680 well people should reward you
02:00:20.100 because you're competent
02:00:20.900 and yes
02:00:21.720 of course they should
02:00:22.960 but if you're competent
02:00:24.060 and silent
02:00:24.600 then you're just not
02:00:25.740 you're not a problem
02:00:27.020 you're just part of the background
02:00:29.060 that's keeping everything
02:00:30.060 functioning
02:00:30.580 and so if you want to
02:00:31.540 develop your career
02:00:32.800 in terms of promotion
02:00:34.360 say and salary
02:00:35.220 it's like
02:00:35.660 you have to be competent
02:00:36.880 and you have to be strategic
02:00:38.520 and to be strategic
02:00:40.200 when you negotiate
02:00:41.140 for a new position
02:00:42.320 or for a new salary
02:00:43.180 you have to be able to say
02:00:44.920 if you don't give me
02:00:46.560 what I want
02:00:47.380 then something you don't like
02:00:49.780 will happen to you
02:00:50.940 and what that means
02:00:52.420 it's not a physical threat
02:00:53.660 it's that you have an option
02:00:55.460 you know
02:00:56.380 so you have your CV
02:00:57.900 your resume in order
02:00:59.160 right
02:00:59.860 you're educated
02:01:00.920 and competent
02:01:01.580 and desirable
02:01:02.340 to people outside
02:01:03.280 of your immediate job
02:01:04.460 you're willing to
02:01:05.620 instantly put yourself
02:01:07.020 in the job market
02:01:08.240 and undergo the stress
02:01:09.380 of finding a new position
02:01:10.500 and undergoing interviews
02:01:11.560 and all of that
02:01:12.320 and you have that
02:01:13.100 all planned out
02:01:13.980 so that when you go
02:01:15.200 talk to the person
02:01:16.060 that you're negotiating with
02:01:17.340 with regards to your salary
02:01:18.520 you're credible
02:01:19.720 and you see
02:01:20.480 because they
02:01:21.120 it's very seldom
02:01:22.180 that you're talking
02:01:22.900 to the person
02:01:23.420 who's at the top
02:01:24.160 of the pecking order
02:01:25.380 let's say
02:01:25.940 what you need to do
02:01:27.260 with them
02:01:28.380 is to tell them
02:01:29.040 a story that they can
02:01:29.840 tell to their boss
02:01:30.860 to make you not a problem
02:01:32.560 and a good story is
02:01:35.200 look we really need
02:01:35.900 this person
02:01:36.380 because they're hyper competent
02:01:37.420 and they have a better offer
02:01:38.620 it's like
02:01:39.380 well then you're going
02:01:40.060 to win the negotiation
02:01:41.060 but if you go in there
02:01:42.500 with no power
02:01:43.760 well
02:01:44.460 you're going to lose
02:01:46.000 obviously
02:01:47.160 so the first thing
02:01:49.200 that you need to know
02:01:49.940 if you're going to negotiate
02:01:50.760 is that you have to be able
02:01:51.920 to say no
02:01:53.080 and what no means
02:01:55.560 is that you're not
02:01:56.560 going to do it
02:01:57.760 and when I made the videos
02:01:59.500 about Bill C-16
02:02:00.960 I thought it through
02:02:03.440 and I thought
02:02:04.280 there's no damn way
02:02:05.580 I'm following this law
02:02:06.780 I don't care what happens
02:02:08.220 and I didn't say that lightly
02:02:09.840 I thought it through
02:02:10.920 I thought okay
02:02:11.620 well
02:02:11.940 let's assume
02:02:13.640 the worst case scenario
02:02:15.080 and the worst case scenario
02:02:16.300 would be
02:02:16.740 that a student
02:02:17.320 would report me
02:02:18.080 to the Ontario Human Rights Commission
02:02:19.620 and then they would
02:02:20.380 do an investigation
02:02:21.160 then they would find me guilty
02:02:22.880 because the Ontario Human Rights Commission
02:02:24.840 finds 99% of the people
02:02:27.280 brought to it guilty
02:02:28.540 because that's what
02:02:29.680 totalitarians do
02:02:31.020 and then I would refuse
02:02:32.480 to pay the fine
02:02:33.360 or cooperate
02:02:34.080 with whatever the re-education
02:02:35.680 they would put me through
02:02:36.600 would be
02:02:37.060 and then that would move
02:02:38.180 to civil court
02:02:38.960 and then I would be fined
02:02:40.020 for contempt
02:02:40.600 and then it would
02:02:41.300 you know
02:02:41.740 then the whole legal
02:02:42.660 catastrophe would unfold
02:02:44.100 and I thought
02:02:45.200 well I could either do that
02:02:46.540 or I could allow the government
02:02:48.540 to regulate my speech
02:02:50.020 it's like
02:02:50.460 nope
02:02:50.980 that's not happening
02:02:52.380 so you might think about that
02:02:55.100 as confrontational
02:02:56.180 and it is confrontational
02:02:57.840 it's like
02:02:58.280 there isn't a goddamn thing
02:03:00.960 that can be done to me
02:03:02.360 to make me allow the government
02:03:04.800 to compel my speech
02:03:06.320 that's not happening
02:03:07.740 and the reason for that
02:03:09.400 I believe
02:03:09.980 the reason for that
02:03:10.820 is because I spent
02:03:12.060 decades
02:03:13.920 studying
02:03:14.960 totalitarianism
02:03:16.140 it's not good
02:03:17.860 and the way
02:03:19.500 that totalitarian states
02:03:20.920 develop
02:03:21.460 is that people
02:03:22.240 give up their right
02:03:23.560 to be
02:03:24.280 their right to
02:03:25.440 to exist
02:03:26.480 with their own thoughts
02:03:27.720 they lie
02:03:28.800 that's what happens
02:03:30.440 is that individuals
02:03:31.480 the individuals
02:03:33.000 sacrifice
02:03:33.740 their own souls
02:03:35.160 to the dictates
02:03:36.400 of the state
02:03:37.120 and then everything
02:03:38.400 goes badly sideways
02:03:40.260 it's like
02:03:41.200 and you think
02:03:41.640 well how much evidence
02:03:42.940 for that
02:03:43.380 do we need
02:03:44.120 you know
02:03:45.300 you're looking at
02:03:45.880 a quarter of a billion deaths
02:03:47.780 it's like
02:03:48.540 isn't that enough
02:03:49.400 well the people
02:03:51.480 that I read
02:03:52.120 who were profound
02:03:53.180 Viktor Frankl
02:03:54.080 is a good example
02:03:54.760 for beginners
02:03:55.500 if you want to read
02:03:56.340 about this sort of thing
02:03:57.260 wrote a book called
02:03:58.280 Man's Search for Meaning
02:03:59.300 and Frankl
02:04:01.000 and also Solzhenitsyn
02:04:02.560 and a variety
02:04:03.540 of other commentators
02:04:04.520 as well
02:04:04.840 who really looked
02:04:05.680 into what happened
02:04:06.480 in both
02:04:08.420 in Nazi Germany
02:04:09.160 and in the
02:04:10.060 communist states
02:04:11.280 their conclusion
02:04:12.280 was universal
02:04:13.700 is that
02:04:14.960 the lies of the state
02:04:16.440 the lies and tyranny
02:04:17.520 of the state
02:04:18.040 are aided and abetted
02:04:19.180 by the moral
02:04:20.100 sacrifice of the individual
02:04:22.160 it's not top down
02:04:24.760 the Nazis are telling
02:04:26.560 you what to do
02:04:27.300 and you're all innocent
02:04:28.160 Nintendo being
02:04:28.920 that's not how it works
02:04:30.560 is you
02:04:31.700 you falsify your
02:04:33.640 your being
02:04:34.820 bit by bit
02:04:37.100 and you end up
02:04:38.760 where you don't want to be
02:04:40.220 and that's a bad idea
02:04:42.140 and if you're interested
02:04:43.380 in that
02:04:43.800 there's a great book
02:04:44.780 called Ordinary Men
02:04:46.200 you read that
02:04:48.160 and you won't be
02:04:48.700 the same person afterwards
02:04:49.940 so I would beware
02:04:51.060 of reading it
02:04:51.760 but it's a story
02:04:52.880 about these policemen
02:04:54.040 in Germany
02:04:54.660 so they were
02:04:55.220 middle-aged guys
02:04:56.180 you know
02:04:56.460 and they'd been
02:04:57.360 they grew up
02:04:58.660 and were
02:04:59.060 socialized
02:05:00.260 before the Nazis
02:05:01.060 came to power
02:05:01.840 so they're just
02:05:02.400 your typical
02:05:02.980 middle-class policemen
02:05:04.120 and
02:05:05.120 they were brought
02:05:06.480 into Poland
02:05:07.040 after the Nazis
02:05:07.900 had marched through
02:05:08.700 and
02:05:09.120 and charged
02:05:11.460 with keeping order
02:05:12.340 in the occupied state
02:05:13.840 and
02:05:14.580 they knew
02:05:16.160 their commander
02:05:17.720 knew that
02:05:18.300 it was going to be brutal
02:05:19.720 because
02:05:20.600 they were
02:05:21.400 in war
02:05:22.180 wartime
02:05:22.980 and they regard
02:05:23.500 the Jews
02:05:23.940 for example
02:05:24.500 as enemies
02:05:25.020 and so there was going to be a fair bit of rounding up
02:05:27.420 with all of that
02:05:28.160 with all of what that implied
02:05:29.800 and the commander told the policemen
02:05:31.840 that they could go home if they wanted to
02:05:33.500 that they didn't have to participate in this
02:05:35.580 and then
02:05:36.440 what ordinary men does
02:05:37.780 is document
02:05:38.460 document their transformation
02:05:40.400 from ordinary policemen
02:05:42.840 the sort of people that you know
02:05:44.540 to guys who were taking naked pregnant women out
02:05:47.200 into the middle of fields
02:05:48.080 and shooting them in the back of the head
02:05:49.560 and it documents
02:05:51.200 one step at a time
02:05:52.940 how an ordinary person
02:05:55.120 turns into someone like that
02:05:56.620 you think
02:05:57.840 well we don't want that sort of thing
02:05:59.260 to happen
02:05:59.760 anymore
02:06:00.480 well then
02:06:01.580 you don't want to be that sort of person
02:06:03.280 that's how it's fixed
02:06:04.840 and if you're not going to be that sort of person
02:06:07.040 then you don't take the first steps
02:06:09.340 because the first steps
02:06:11.520 lead you down a pathway
02:06:12.720 that
02:06:12.980 at least in principle
02:06:14.180 you don't want to go
02:06:15.200 so
02:06:16.660 well I think part of what makes me combative
02:06:19.220 say compared to someone like height
02:06:20.800 is that
02:06:21.260 I've spent
02:06:22.140 years
02:06:23.360 looking at the worst things
02:06:25.340 there are to look at
02:06:26.500 and I've learned from that
02:06:28.460 and I've learned
02:06:29.040 certainly learned things
02:06:30.040 that I won't do
02:06:30.980 and one of them is
02:06:32.320 I won't let the government
02:06:33.620 regulate my speech
02:06:34.940 it's a mistake
02:06:36.340 I don't care what
02:06:37.340 compassionate
02:06:38.280 principles
02:06:39.580 hypothetically motivate
02:06:41.260 that move
02:06:42.060 it was
02:06:42.660 unprecedented
02:06:43.740 in English common law
02:06:45.700 that move
02:06:46.660 it was all buried under
02:06:48.240 this leftist
02:06:49.800 compassion
02:06:51.000 which is
02:06:51.820 mostly
02:06:52.900 it's mostly a lie
02:06:56.420 so
02:06:58.040 I have reasons
02:06:59.880 I think
02:07:00.320 other than those
02:07:01.080 that motivate
02:07:01.780 someone like Jonathan Haidt
02:07:03.440 to be
02:07:04.280 particularly
02:07:05.280 passionate
02:07:06.720 about this issue
02:07:07.880 so
02:07:09.540 on the subject
02:07:12.560 of totalitarianism
02:07:13.940 I wanted to do
02:07:17.240 something very quickly
02:07:18.260 so
02:07:18.860 I'm guessing
02:07:22.200 that even though
02:07:22.760 most people
02:07:23.380 in the room
02:07:24.080 have negative views
02:07:25.160 of both men
02:07:26.020 they have a more
02:07:27.020 intensely negative view
02:07:28.220 of Hitler
02:07:28.620 than of Stalin
02:07:29.440 I'm guessing
02:07:33.880 almost everyone
02:07:34.620 in the room
02:07:35.340 has a far more
02:07:36.460 negative
02:07:36.900 visceral reaction
02:07:38.000 to the swastika
02:07:39.560 than to the hammer
02:07:40.440 and sickle
02:07:40.960 some of the
02:07:43.580 protesters
02:07:44.060 at your event
02:07:45.020 at McMaster University
02:07:46.800 stood behind
02:07:47.620 a banner
02:07:48.060 with a hammer
02:07:48.740 and sickle
02:07:49.500 you've said
02:07:50.520 that a hammer
02:07:50.980 and sickle
02:07:51.420 is no funnier
02:07:52.160 than a swastika
02:07:53.000 that quote
02:07:54.360 the reprehensible
02:07:55.080 ideologies
02:07:56.680 that are based
02:07:57.240 in fundamental
02:07:57.780 Marxism
02:07:58.420 killed at least
02:07:59.260 100 million people
02:08:00.160 in the 20th century
02:08:01.020 unquote
02:08:01.480 I've discussed
02:08:02.740 this proposition
02:08:03.580 with numerous people
02:08:05.080 in recent months
02:08:05.980 and almost no one
02:08:07.340 seems to buy it
02:08:08.260 no one disputes
02:08:10.000 the body count
02:08:10.860 under socialist regimes
02:08:12.800 , few dispute
02:08:14.200 that Stalin
02:08:14.920 was a vicious murderer
02:08:16.080 roughly on par
02:08:18.580 with Hitler
02:08:19.120 in moral terms
02:08:20.160 most think
02:08:21.620 that communism
02:08:22.500 should not
02:08:23.300 be tried again
02:08:24.160 in other words
02:08:25.400 they share your critique
02:08:26.400 of the argument
02:08:27.120 that previous
02:08:28.340 communist experiments
02:08:29.560 did not represent
02:08:30.680 proper communism
02:08:31.720 and that proper
02:08:32.840 communism
02:08:33.420 should be tried
02:08:34.700 nevertheless
02:08:36.540 they still disagree
02:08:37.960 with you
02:08:38.520 that we should react
02:08:40.680 as negatively
02:08:41.380 to the hammer
02:08:42.180 and sickle
02:08:42.860 as we do
02:08:43.880 to the swastika
02:08:44.760 why?
02:08:46.240 because they say
02:08:47.240 the two ideologies
02:08:48.460 are not morally
02:08:50.180 comparable
02:08:50.720 national socialism
02:08:52.080 is much worse
02:08:53.100 morally
02:08:53.940 than Marxism
02:08:55.180 or Marxism-Leninism
02:08:56.760 so what do you
02:08:57.920 say to this?
02:09:01.880 well I would say
02:09:02.900 the first thing
02:09:03.580 is that it's highly
02:09:04.340 probable
02:09:04.840 that you are talking
02:09:05.700 to intellectuals
02:09:07.940 students
02:09:11.320 well
02:09:13.560 we'll call them
02:09:14.620 budding intellectuals
02:09:15.940 it is a mystery
02:09:24.480 you know
02:09:24.940 it is a mystery
02:09:26.640 because
02:09:27.200 it is the case
02:09:28.660 that
02:09:28.960 there is something
02:09:30.820 about the Nazi doctrine
02:09:32.100 that seems to have
02:09:33.240 a visceral impact
02:09:34.900 that
02:09:35.620 that the
02:09:36.800 communist doctrine
02:09:38.500 doesn't have
02:09:39.400 and I said
02:09:41.420 when I opened
02:09:42.460 my remarks
02:09:43.480 tonight
02:09:43.820 that it might be
02:09:44.980 the
02:09:46.180 issue
02:09:47.680 of racial superiority
02:09:48.900 you know
02:09:49.620 it's something
02:09:50.600 single
02:09:51.120 that you can
02:09:51.640 put your finger on
02:09:52.600 whereas
02:09:53.660 what's happening
02:09:54.340 on the left
02:09:54.960 that's horrifying
02:09:55.860 is murky
02:09:56.820 it might even
02:09:57.660 be multidimensional
02:09:58.660 like maybe
02:09:59.160 there isn't a single
02:10:00.080 radical leftist
02:10:01.140 idea that's murderous
02:10:02.380 like the racial
02:10:03.080 superiority doctrine
02:10:04.260 maybe it's a
02:10:05.180 combination of
02:10:05.980 three
02:10:06.440 or maybe it's
02:10:07.280 some set of
02:10:07.900 four out of ten
02:10:09.000 who knows
02:10:09.940 so
02:10:10.220 and because of that
02:10:11.520 it doesn't seem
02:10:12.400 as repugnant
02:10:13.060 and there was also
02:10:13.680 a universalizing tendency
02:10:15.380 among the communists
02:10:16.900 that seemed to
02:10:18.080 be less morally
02:10:19.840 reprehensible
02:10:20.580 than the ethno-nationalism
02:10:22.120 of the Nazis
02:10:22.780 so
02:10:23.100 you know
02:10:23.580 you think
02:10:24.000 if you go back
02:10:24.820 to 1914
02:10:25.700 it's complicated
02:10:27.080 but if you go back
02:10:27.860 to say 1918
02:10:29.380 at the time
02:10:30.620 of the Russian Revolution
02:10:31.580 it's not like
02:10:33.020 the communists
02:10:33.880 knew
02:10:34.860 that their attempts
02:10:36.020 to bring about
02:10:36.780 the socialist utopia
02:10:38.060 would be doomed
02:10:38.820 to absolute
02:10:39.620 murderous catastrophe
02:10:40.700 right
02:10:41.100 they were working
02:10:42.200 in ignorance
02:10:43.420 now it's not
02:10:44.240 that simple
02:10:45.120 because by that time
02:10:46.880 Dostoevsky had already
02:10:48.120 written
02:10:48.460 The Devils
02:10:49.100 The Possessed
02:10:49.740 and he outlined
02:10:50.700 very very clearly
02:10:51.680 what he thought
02:10:53.120 would happen
02:10:53.720 if people like that
02:10:55.300 got the reins of power
02:10:56.600 and Nietzsche had done
02:10:57.360 the same thing
02:10:57.920 in his writing
02:10:58.520 so people knew
02:10:59.680 that there was something
02:11:00.480 toxic let's say
02:11:01.840 and deadly
02:11:02.560 about the doctrine
02:11:03.460 but it hadn't been
02:11:04.520 played out
02:11:05.160 on the world stage
02:11:06.740 but now
02:11:08.080 it's like
02:11:09.000 well this is why
02:11:10.940 I said what I said
02:11:11.680 at the beginning
02:11:12.200 fine
02:11:13.820 you know
02:11:14.860 if
02:11:15.420 I don't know
02:11:18.500 exactly how to make
02:11:19.480 the moral distinction
02:11:20.480 but it's a distinction
02:11:23.900 that has to be made
02:11:24.860 I think that people
02:11:26.020 who apologize
02:11:27.160 who say something
02:11:28.520 like I think
02:11:29.080 I think that
02:11:29.960 that it's virtually
02:11:33.600 I don't know
02:11:35.400 if it's as reprehensible
02:11:36.680 to say that
02:11:37.940 a given ethnic group
02:11:39.380 should be consigned
02:11:40.240 to the fire
02:11:40.920 and to say
02:11:42.000 that wasn't real communism
02:11:43.960 but they're damn close
02:11:45.940 and when I hear someone say
02:11:48.620 that wasn't real communism
02:11:50.140 I know what they mean
02:11:51.400 what they mean was
02:11:53.180 if I was the dictator
02:11:55.820 in Stalin's shoes
02:11:57.320 I personally would have
02:11:59.280 brought in the utopia
02:12:00.420 that's what that statement means
02:12:02.400 or it means
02:12:04.380 an ignorance of history
02:12:06.700 that's so utterly appalling
02:12:09.020 that
02:12:10.020 that any political statement
02:12:14.600 made on behalf of that person
02:12:16.860 whatsoever
02:12:17.460 should immediately be followed
02:12:19.280 by a paroxysm
02:12:20.520 of extreme embarrassment
02:12:22.000 may I say one
02:12:24.340 I just want to be clear
02:12:26.640 that these students
02:12:28.540 were conceding
02:12:29.880 that they don't agree
02:12:31.560 they share your critique
02:12:33.660 they don't share it enough
02:12:35.860 oh okay
02:12:36.320 fair enough
02:12:36.720 I just wanted to make that clear
02:12:37.760 so they would
02:12:38.940 more or less agree
02:12:39.800 with what you just said
02:12:40.720 I think about
02:12:41.380 it's not okay to say
02:12:43.960 those regimes
02:12:44.880 weren't proper communism
02:12:45.920 and that proper communism
02:12:46.900 should be tried
02:12:47.540 they still dispute though
02:12:48.720 that socialism
02:12:49.600 as an ideology
02:12:50.480 is on par with Nazism
02:12:51.780 so I just wanted to make that clear
02:12:52.980 well we could say
02:12:53.700 communism
02:12:54.400 let's say
02:12:55.260 we could say
02:12:56.140 radical leftist ideology
02:12:57.980 as I said already
02:12:59.240 there are reasons
02:13:00.100 for the left
02:13:00.740 and the right wing
02:13:01.600 right
02:13:02.220 the right wing
02:13:02.860 stands for hierarchy
02:13:03.900 and the left wing
02:13:04.900 stands for the
02:13:05.680 for those who are
02:13:07.080 displaced by hierarchy
02:13:08.580 right
02:13:09.020 an endless problem
02:13:10.300 but that doesn't mean
02:13:12.340 that still
02:13:13.080 leaves it in the camp
02:13:14.980 of the people speaking
02:13:16.280 on behalf of egalitarianism
02:13:18.600 to figure out
02:13:19.220 just what the hell
02:13:20.280 went wrong
02:13:21.000 and to take some
02:13:21.860 responsibility for it
02:13:23.200 you know
02:13:24.460 it's no joke
02:13:25.380 and we see these things
02:13:26.780 play out continually
02:13:27.800 still
02:13:28.280 look at what happened
02:13:28.980 to Venezuela
02:13:29.540 here's a fun story
02:13:31.120 do you know that
02:13:32.560 it is now illegal
02:13:34.120 for physicians
02:13:35.020 to list
02:13:35.840 list starvation
02:13:37.200 as the cause of death
02:13:38.520 for a Venezuelan child
02:13:39.780 in a hospital
02:13:40.540 that's how
02:13:41.680 they're dealing with
02:13:42.720 the fact of starvation
02:13:44.840 right
02:13:45.920 you just make it illegal
02:13:47.100 to have that diagnosed
02:13:48.400 as your cause of death
02:13:49.600 that'll solve the problem
02:13:51.220 it's like
02:13:52.220 you know
02:13:52.720 we have a group of
02:13:54.180 of well-meaning
02:13:55.520 socialists in Canada
02:13:57.040 who just produced
02:13:58.240 something called
02:13:58.860 the Leap Manifesto
02:14:00.020 a couple of years ago
02:14:01.060 and it's a pretty radical
02:14:02.060 it's a pretty radical document
02:14:04.820 they're trying to move
02:14:05.720 our socialist party
02:14:06.740 the NDP
02:14:07.340 New Democratic Party
02:14:08.600 towards the acceptance
02:14:10.480 of this Leap Manifesto
02:14:11.740 which doesn't look like
02:14:12.620 it's going to happen
02:14:13.380 but they were all
02:14:14.440 radical promoters
02:14:15.740 of the Venezuelan government
02:14:17.380 before everything went
02:14:18.540 like badly sideways
02:14:20.780 you know
02:14:21.800 I think the average
02:14:22.500 Venezuelan now
02:14:23.220 has lost 17 pounds
02:14:24.940 and that's not because
02:14:25.940 they were put on
02:14:26.620 a voluntary dieting program
02:14:28.560 right
02:14:29.340 it's not good
02:14:30.240 and so
02:14:31.300 if you're
02:14:32.380 tilting towards the left
02:14:33.940 and you're temperamentally
02:14:35.260 inclined that way
02:14:36.040 and half the population is
02:14:37.780 then you have
02:14:38.560 an ethical problem
02:14:39.440 on your
02:14:39.900 on your hands
02:14:41.220 which is
02:14:41.960 how do you segregate
02:14:43.260 yourself
02:14:43.700 from the radical policies
02:14:45.060 that produce
02:14:45.680 the catastrophes
02:14:46.460 of the 20th century
02:14:47.420 and you can't just say
02:14:48.920 well that's not my problem
02:14:50.180 it's like
02:14:50.600 well okay
02:14:51.360 if it's not your problem
02:14:53.660 now
02:14:54.060 it certainly might become
02:14:55.560 your problem
02:14:56.100 in the future
02:14:56.800 so and I would say
02:14:58.520 it's actually
02:14:58.980 everybody's problem
02:14:59.980 in the aftermath
02:15:00.720 of the 20th century
02:15:01.840 it's everybody's problem
02:15:03.340 so
02:15:04.560 so it's
02:15:06.900 it's
02:15:07.620 it's complicated
02:15:09.620 like
02:15:09.980 there is a
02:15:11.300 genuine desire
02:15:13.020 like I worked for
02:15:13.880 a socialist party
02:15:14.660 for quite a while
02:15:15.280 when I was a kid
02:15:16.020 you know
02:15:16.920 and I saw
02:15:17.320 both sides of it
02:15:18.180 I saw
02:15:18.700 some very
02:15:19.840 very
02:15:20.280 admirable people
02:15:21.500 I was privy
02:15:22.880 for
02:15:23.240 for a variety
02:15:24.320 of
02:15:24.560 chance reasons
02:15:26.080 to the leadership
02:15:27.380 of the socialist party
02:15:28.720 in Canada
02:15:29.240 at the provincial
02:15:29.940 and the national level
02:15:30.920 I met the people
02:15:31.720 who ran the provinces
02:15:32.840 some of the provinces
02:15:33.760 and who ran the party
02:15:34.720 and a lot of them
02:15:35.640 were really admirable people
02:15:36.980 like they'd spent
02:15:37.580 their whole life
02:15:38.300 I would say
02:15:38.980 working on behalf
02:15:39.940 of the working class
02:15:41.020 you know
02:15:41.380 so they were
02:15:42.060 genuine labour leaders
02:15:43.520 and
02:15:43.780 and
02:15:44.360 and
02:15:44.820 and there was also
02:15:45.700 a lot done
02:15:46.380 in Canada
02:15:46.860 on the left
02:15:47.520 that looks like
02:15:48.420 it was actually
02:15:49.020 pretty good
02:15:49.620 standard work week
02:15:50.840 the inco
02:15:51.620 you know
02:15:52.140 the establishment
02:15:52.980 of pensions
02:15:54.260 the introduction
02:15:55.180 of our health care system
02:15:56.360 which
02:15:56.600 I would say
02:15:57.640 probably
02:15:58.560 overall
02:16:00.120 works better
02:16:00.840 than the American system
02:16:01.960 although not
02:16:02.500 at the upper end
02:16:03.360 and
02:16:04.240 they were working hard
02:16:06.620 on behalf of people
02:16:07.600 who had
02:16:08.080 working class lives
02:16:09.800 but then
02:16:10.580 I also
02:16:11.460 encountered
02:16:12.300 the sort of
02:16:13.200 low level activist types
02:16:14.640 and I didn't have
02:16:15.820 any respect for them
02:16:16.660 at all
02:16:16.920 I just thought
02:16:17.440 they were peevish
02:16:18.260 and resentful
02:16:18.980 and irritable
02:16:19.560 and those two things
02:16:21.080 exist in a very uneasy
02:16:22.600 coalition on the west
02:16:23.860 there's care for the poor
02:16:25.480 and hatred for the successful
02:16:27.080 and those two things
02:16:28.300 aren't the same at all
02:16:29.340 and it looks to me
02:16:30.540 like one of the things
02:16:31.340 that really happened
02:16:32.180 when the communist doctrines
02:16:33.980 were brought into play
02:16:34.880 and it also
02:16:35.800 by the way
02:16:36.380 we did the multinational
02:16:37.800 experiment
02:16:38.380 right
02:16:38.720 it doesn't matter
02:16:39.300 where you put these policies
02:16:40.520 into play
02:16:41.060 the same bloody outcome
02:16:42.200 occurred
02:16:42.700 didn't matter
02:16:43.520 whether it was Russia
02:16:44.300 or China
02:16:44.940 or Cambodia
02:16:45.700 or Vietnam
02:16:46.280 or
02:16:46.680 to pick a random
02:16:48.320 African country
02:16:49.260 or Cuba
02:16:49.880 or Venezuela
02:16:50.740 for that matter
02:16:51.660 it was an
02:16:52.380 unmitigated catastrophe
02:16:54.080 and so to me
02:16:55.120 that's experiment
02:16:56.260 plus replication
02:16:57.420 enough
02:16:58.420 enough
02:16:59.680 well
02:17:00.800 that has to be dealt with
02:17:02.600 and it's not
02:17:03.040 the intellectual left
02:17:04.860 in the west
02:17:05.440 has been absolutely
02:17:06.300 appalling
02:17:07.020 in their silence
02:17:08.400 on the communist
02:17:09.580 catastrophe
02:17:10.200 like for my students
02:17:11.620 a lot of my students
02:17:12.520 really haven't heard
02:17:13.340 about anything
02:17:13.900 that happened
02:17:14.420 in the Soviet Union
02:17:15.380 in any detail
02:17:16.700 until they take
02:17:17.420 my personality class
02:17:18.700 in the second year
02:17:19.380 of university
02:17:19.940 it's like
02:17:20.340 well what the hell
02:17:21.200 why are they learning
02:17:22.560 about that
02:17:23.100 in a personality class
02:17:24.620 in the second year
02:17:25.420 of university
02:17:26.080 that's not
02:17:26.800 that should be
02:17:27.600 first and foremost
02:17:29.500 in their
02:17:30.620 in their historical knowledge
02:17:32.100 what happened
02:17:32.700 in the 20th century
02:17:33.680 I mean
02:17:33.980 it was almost fatal
02:17:35.200 what happened
02:17:36.180 and we still haven't
02:17:37.000 completely recovered
02:17:38.140 from it
02:17:38.580 right
02:17:38.780 I think
02:17:39.400 isn't your president
02:17:40.560 Donald Trump
02:17:41.260 going to talk to
02:17:42.220 like
02:17:42.480 insane totalitarian
02:17:44.800 number one
02:17:45.620 sometime here
02:17:46.480 in the near future
02:17:47.300 but that's still
02:17:48.000 a Soviet era state
02:17:49.880 those people
02:17:50.620 are armed
02:17:51.280 to the teeth
02:17:52.280 you know
02:17:52.940 they have the weapon
02:17:53.720 they have weaponry
02:17:54.880 that could easily
02:17:55.780 take you out
02:17:56.680 and so we're not
02:17:58.080 I don't know
02:17:58.660 if you know
02:17:59.340 do you know
02:17:59.720 what happens
02:18:00.260 if you blast
02:18:01.060 a single hydrogen bomb
02:18:02.280 a hundred miles
02:18:02.980 above the United States
02:18:04.040 just one
02:18:04.980 you lose all
02:18:06.680 your electronics
02:18:07.560 right
02:18:08.800 they're all
02:18:09.340 done
02:18:10.040 tractors
02:18:11.280 cars
02:18:12.200 trains
02:18:13.200 subways
02:18:14.120 computers
02:18:14.880 phones
02:18:15.840 all of them
02:18:17.000 burn out
02:18:17.880 and that's it
02:18:19.240 so we're not done
02:18:21.520 with this yet
02:18:22.360 and the Korean state
02:18:24.120 North Korea
02:18:24.780 is an emblematic
02:18:26.260 representative of the
02:18:27.400 communist catastrophe
02:18:28.600 and everyone there
02:18:29.780 starves
02:18:30.680 there's millions of people
02:18:32.260 died
02:18:33.180 20 years ago
02:18:34.500 it's not got any better
02:18:36.100 so it's not like
02:18:37.600 it's not like
02:18:38.900 we solved this problem
02:18:40.060 and there's a deafening
02:18:41.440 silence on the
02:18:42.580 intellectual side
02:18:43.640 of the spectrum
02:18:44.400 with regards to what
02:18:45.400 happened on the
02:18:46.660 egalitarian left
02:18:48.160 and there's no excuse
02:18:49.620 for it
02:18:50.520 so
02:18:51.000 somewhat relatedly
02:18:57.180 I think it's fair to say
02:18:58.280 that even though
02:18:59.000 you have criticized
02:18:59.780 segments of both
02:19:01.480 the left
02:19:02.160 social justice warriors
02:19:03.640 and the right
02:19:04.560 the alt-right
02:19:05.520 your critical commentary
02:19:07.220 over the last
02:19:08.160 year and a half
02:19:08.940 has focused
02:19:09.560 significantly more
02:19:10.860 on the left
02:19:11.620 than on the right
02:19:12.380 a lot of people
02:19:13.960 I've talked to here
02:19:14.760 at Lafayette
02:19:15.380 at Lafayette
02:19:16.300 take issue with that
02:19:17.460 they say that
02:19:18.660 we're so far
02:19:19.740 from a Marxist
02:19:20.720 takeover
02:19:21.380 of our culture
02:19:22.240 and political institutions
02:19:23.540 that to suggest
02:19:25.080 otherwise
02:19:25.620 is to engage
02:19:26.580 in a classic
02:19:27.300 kind of right-wing
02:19:28.380 exaggeration
02:19:29.280 and hysteria
02:19:30.140 that we've seen
02:19:31.040 before in western
02:19:31.880 countries in the early
02:19:32.840 to mid-20th century
02:19:33.880 they also say
02:19:35.540 and this is important
02:19:36.660 to them
02:19:37.140 that the nationalist
02:19:38.380 authoritarian right
02:19:39.760 poses more of a threat
02:19:41.480 to freedom of the
02:19:42.340 individual
02:19:42.780 than the left
02:19:43.820 does today
02:19:44.500 as it has
02:19:45.540 in the west
02:19:46.180 since the early
02:19:46.880 20th century
02:19:47.640 they argue
02:19:48.880 that the left
02:19:49.440 may have sway
02:19:50.260 in the academy
02:19:50.980 and large segments
02:19:51.900 of the media
02:19:52.580 but nationalist
02:19:53.820 right parties
02:19:54.760 figures
02:19:55.480 and movements
02:19:56.220 with authoritarian
02:19:57.140 tendencies
02:19:57.780 have risen
02:19:58.860 become potent
02:19:59.980 and often been
02:20:01.020 victorious
02:20:01.520 in recent years
02:20:02.580 and they point
02:20:03.480 to Trump
02:20:04.240 Brexit
02:20:04.960 the national front
02:20:06.160 pointing to Trump
02:20:07.280 is rather pointless
02:20:08.340 I mean I don't know
02:20:10.280 what Trump is
02:20:11.040 but to think of him
02:20:11.880 as a figure
02:20:12.460 of the radical right
02:20:13.480 is a little
02:20:13.900 on the absurd side
02:20:15.060 so I mean
02:20:16.720 we are polarizing
02:20:19.220 and so
02:20:19.780 who God only knows
02:20:21.560 where the ultimate
02:20:22.220 danger will come from
02:20:23.380 if it's the
02:20:24.020 ethno-nationalists
02:20:25.300 on the right
02:20:25.860 or if it's the
02:20:26.600 radical leftists
02:20:27.580 on the left
02:20:28.220 who knows right
02:20:29.100 I suspect to some degree
02:20:30.860 that's a matter
02:20:31.800 of happenstance
02:20:32.840 I mean that's
02:20:33.560 what you'd expect
02:20:34.300 if you looked
02:20:34.820 at 20th century history
02:20:36.140 but I emerged
02:20:38.060 out of the academy
02:20:39.000 and the academy
02:20:40.560 like there aren't
02:20:41.520 right-wing people
02:20:42.480 in the academy
02:20:43.260 not to speak of
02:20:44.320 that's completely
02:20:45.320 that's thoroughly
02:20:46.600 documented
02:20:47.420 and it's certainly
02:20:49.200 not the case
02:20:49.840 in a country
02:20:50.280 like Canada
02:20:50.920 there's no threat
02:20:51.960 whatsoever in Canada
02:20:53.420 from the radical right
02:20:55.400 it's like
02:20:56.080 I don't know
02:20:56.420 if you rounded up
02:20:57.280 everybody who was
02:20:58.120 in the radical right
02:20:58.940 in Canada
02:20:59.400 you might be able
02:21:00.040 to scrape up
02:21:00.900 like what
02:21:01.620 three or four thousand
02:21:02.840 people
02:21:03.380 if you really
02:21:04.000 like if you really
02:21:05.040 worked at it
02:21:06.000 you know
02:21:06.700 so I just don't see that
02:21:08.820 at least in my own country
02:21:10.020 that's just a non-issue
02:21:11.600 it's a non-starter
02:21:13.080 I mean the last time
02:21:14.960 there was any
02:21:15.500 kind of radical
02:21:16.400 right-wingers in Canada
02:21:17.500 was probably in Quebec
02:21:18.500 in the 1950s
02:21:19.880 and maybe from the 1930s
02:21:21.880 to the 1950s
02:21:22.840 but it's never been
02:21:23.440 a political issue
02:21:24.320 what about the AFD
02:21:25.460 or the Italian
02:21:26.960 I can't remember the name
02:21:28.120 of the Italian party
02:21:29.100 the National Front
02:21:31.200 in France
02:21:31.820 where would you put
02:21:32.420 would you
02:21:32.860 oh well
02:21:33.540 I mean
02:21:33.820 in Europe
02:21:34.540 it's more
02:21:35.120 there's more
02:21:36.440 polarization
02:21:37.180 I would say
02:21:37.940 but the Europeans
02:21:38.560 also have problems
02:21:39.540 that we don't have
02:21:40.540 you know
02:21:41.280 they've been
02:21:41.940 struggling
02:21:43.440 with the consequences
02:21:44.700 of non-ending violence
02:21:46.120 in the Middle East
02:21:47.020 and the wave
02:21:47.820 of refugees
02:21:48.880 that has emerged
02:21:49.780 as a consequence
02:21:50.460 of that
02:21:50.920 and so the situation
02:21:51.880 in Europe
02:21:52.760 is different
02:21:53.320 and I would say
02:21:54.060 there is more
02:21:55.080 movement
02:21:55.880 and activity
02:21:56.600 on the right
02:21:57.400 so
02:21:58.320 but
02:21:59.060 and
02:22:01.040 you know
02:22:01.640 I'm not
02:22:02.940 a
02:22:03.600 admirer
02:22:04.860 of identity politics
02:22:06.180 well
02:22:06.420 and that's for the reasons
02:22:07.280 I brought up to begin with
02:22:08.420 I think that
02:22:09.100 you have to
02:22:10.560 decide
02:22:11.720 conceptually
02:22:13.940 psychologically
02:22:14.980 familially
02:22:16.260 and socially
02:22:17.360 what your vision
02:22:19.900 of a human being is
02:22:21.160 and if your vision
02:22:21.900 of a human being
02:22:22.560 is essentially
02:22:23.340 tribal
02:22:24.000 so that you're defined
02:22:25.260 by your collective identity
02:22:26.480 in some manner
02:22:27.340 then
02:22:28.100 you're going to play
02:22:29.060 identity politics
02:22:29.900 on the left
02:22:30.600 you're going to play
02:22:31.180 identity politics
02:22:32.020 on the right
02:22:32.680 it's like
02:22:33.420 well I think
02:22:34.020 the identity politics
02:22:35.180 types on the left
02:22:36.060 pose a bigger threat
02:22:37.040 in my country
02:22:37.800 it's not so obvious
02:22:39.080 in your country
02:22:39.860 because
02:22:40.240 you guys
02:22:41.460 your political landscape
02:22:42.800 is more balanced
02:22:43.760 I would say
02:22:44.300 than ours
02:22:44.840 if the radical right
02:22:46.680 posed a threat
02:22:47.420 to the academy
02:22:48.100 which they most
02:22:49.040 decidedly do not
02:22:50.740 then I would be
02:22:51.740 just as upset
02:22:52.420 about that
02:22:53.140 and so
02:22:54.100 I think again
02:22:55.820 it's part and parcel
02:22:57.220 of the radical left's
02:22:58.700 failure to take
02:22:59.440 or the left's in general
02:23:00.620 failure to take
02:23:01.460 responsibility
02:23:02.080 for the radicals
02:23:03.020 it's like
02:23:03.340 oh well
02:23:03.640 why aren't you
02:23:04.220 criticizing equally
02:23:05.560 on both sides
02:23:06.580 well
02:23:07.180 the threat
02:23:09.240 doesn't exist
02:23:10.080 equally on both sides
02:23:11.400 not in my country
02:23:12.320 so
02:23:13.440 I think
02:23:15.980 identity politics
02:23:16.860 is murderous game
02:23:17.860 no matter who
02:23:18.380 plays it
02:23:18.960 you know
02:23:19.280 and on the left
02:23:19.980 it's
02:23:20.340 well we've already
02:23:21.680 talked about that
02:23:22.500 so what's wrong
02:23:23.220 on the right
02:23:23.760 well you stand up
02:23:25.360 and wave your flag
02:23:26.200 and talk about
02:23:26.820 your ethnic identity
02:23:27.800 or your racial identity
02:23:28.980 and you take pride
02:23:29.880 in that
02:23:30.200 it's like
02:23:30.480 what the hell
02:23:30.860 did that have to do
02:23:31.560 with you
02:23:32.020 you god damn loser
02:23:33.360 you know
02:23:34.840 it's like
02:23:35.400 you're one of the
02:23:36.340 great heroes
02:23:36.860 of the past
02:23:37.520 are you
02:23:37.820 that's why
02:23:38.140 you're standing up
02:23:38.840 and waving your flag
02:23:39.800 it's no you're not
02:23:40.540 you're identifying
02:23:41.780 with your group
02:23:42.600 because you don't have
02:23:43.320 anything of your own
02:23:44.240 to offer
02:23:44.720 and so it's pathetic
02:23:46.380 and I've said that
02:23:47.780 many times
02:23:48.460 and in my lectures too
02:23:49.600 and people know this
02:23:50.620 if they've actually
02:23:51.280 watched my university
02:23:52.840 lectures
02:23:53.260 I spend a tremendous
02:23:54.860 amount of time
02:23:55.700 and have for 30 years
02:23:57.600 convincing my students
02:23:59.220 that if they had been
02:24:00.120 in Nazi Germany
02:24:00.980 there was a very high
02:24:02.060 probability
02:24:02.640 that rather than being
02:24:04.160 Oscar Schindler
02:24:05.200 and rescuing the Jews
02:24:06.460 they would have been
02:24:07.400 a Nazi persecutor
02:24:08.580 because there's like
02:24:09.560 five Oscar Schindlers
02:24:11.480 and like
02:24:12.020 many million Nazis
02:24:13.900 so you can do the math
02:24:15.580 for yourself
02:24:16.320 and if you don't think
02:24:17.700 that if you think
02:24:18.640 that you would have been
02:24:19.360 one of the few heroes
02:24:20.420 then you're either
02:24:21.420 someone truly remarkable
02:24:23.740 or you're unbelievably
02:24:26.700 deluded
02:24:27.480 and so I would suspect
02:24:29.680 that you're in the
02:24:30.560 unbelievably deluded camp
02:24:32.160 because truly remarkable
02:24:33.420 people are rare
02:24:34.260 and I've really
02:24:35.080 I've really seen this
02:24:36.380 in the last year or two
02:24:37.400 because one of the things
02:24:38.480 I have noted
02:24:39.100 like I knew that people
02:24:40.160 were timid
02:24:40.940 you know
02:24:41.800 and I knew why
02:24:42.720 it's dangerous to stick
02:24:43.840 your head up above the rest
02:24:45.080 I mean
02:24:45.400 it's predator avoidance strategy
02:24:47.440 to keep your head down
02:24:48.560 and I mean that technically
02:24:50.440 it truly is
02:24:51.460 to blend in with the crowd
02:24:52.660 is a predator avoidance strategy
02:24:54.640 that's what fish do
02:24:55.980 in schools of fish
02:24:57.260 like it's very low level behavior
02:24:59.240 and if you stick your head up
02:25:00.720 there's some real danger
02:25:01.760 and the advantage to that
02:25:03.480 is that people are pretty civilized
02:25:05.080 and they go along with the group
02:25:06.280 and that's a good thing
02:25:07.600 because you know
02:25:08.240 we should be civilized
02:25:09.220 and go along with the group
02:25:10.120 but it's a really bad thing
02:25:11.360 when the group goes sideways
02:25:12.560 and I've had many people
02:25:14.980 colleagues
02:25:15.580 but many other people too
02:25:17.060 say
02:25:17.400 well really
02:25:18.480 we agree with what you're doing
02:25:19.940 but we can't really
02:25:20.940 take the risk
02:25:21.740 of standing up
02:25:22.520 and saying so
02:25:23.260 it's like
02:25:23.740 well now and then
02:25:25.300 so most people fall into that camp
02:25:27.120 when I went to Queen's University
02:25:28.600 a month ago
02:25:29.560 and was subject to that
02:25:31.120 chilling demonstration
02:25:32.480 I would say
02:25:33.340 where the radicals climbed up
02:25:35.520 into the stained glass window
02:25:37.280 window wells
02:25:38.800 and pounded
02:25:39.720 you know
02:25:40.100 unendingly
02:25:41.200 for 90 minutes
02:25:42.200 while we were all inside
02:25:43.360 I had a professor write me
02:25:45.000 the day before
02:25:45.640 and say
02:25:46.040 look
02:25:46.320 my wife and I work at the university
02:25:48.540 we really support what you're doing
02:25:50.440 but we can't even risk
02:25:51.900 coming to the talk
02:25:53.100 because what if the students see
02:25:55.120 and complain
02:25:56.160 it's like
02:25:56.820 well yeah
02:25:57.320 there's courage for you man
02:25:58.760 there's courage for you
02:25:59.840 you know
02:26:00.620 and so
02:26:01.160 but that's par for the course
02:26:02.780 and it's unsurprising
02:26:04.080 to some degree
02:26:04.940 but
02:26:05.840 well
02:26:07.380 but anyways
02:26:07.980 on the right
02:26:08.580 it's like
02:26:09.040 it's an excuse
02:26:12.100 by people on the left
02:26:14.040 not to take the things
02:26:15.820 that I'm saying seriously
02:26:16.920 that's what it is
02:26:18.500 it's like
02:26:18.940 well he's not attacking
02:26:19.920 the right as much
02:26:21.420 it's like
02:26:21.780 well they're not
02:26:22.360 after me
02:26:23.540 they're not trying
02:26:24.700 to close down
02:26:25.480 my speech
02:26:26.220 so I took that personally
02:26:28.640 so had it been right wingers
02:26:30.880 coming after me
02:26:31.820 well
02:26:32.680 it would have been
02:26:33.380 the same thing
02:26:34.180 so
02:26:35.240 it's a foolish objection
02:26:37.600 I think
02:26:38.280 for decades
02:26:46.600 ethnic groups
02:26:47.520 have on average
02:26:48.520 scored significantly differently
02:26:50.080 on IQ tests
02:26:51.380 according to psychology
02:26:53.340 professor Richard Hayer
02:26:54.660 whom you interviewed
02:26:55.480 on your channel
02:26:56.320 YouTube
02:26:56.860 there is no scientific consensus
02:26:58.840 on the causes
02:26:59.520 of these average differences
02:27:00.940 in IQ test scores
02:27:02.080 yet according to Hayer
02:27:03.700 psychologists
02:27:04.740 do generally agree
02:27:06.220 that general intelligence exists
02:27:08.080 that IQ measures it well
02:27:10.340 and in a non-culturally biased way
02:27:12.500 that IQ is highly predictive
02:27:14.800 of success
02:27:15.840 in educational
02:27:16.680 and professional terms
02:27:17.960 and that for decades
02:27:19.440 ethnic groups
02:27:20.160 have on average
02:27:21.120 scored significantly differently
02:27:22.600 so assuming this is true
02:27:24.660 should we talk about it
02:27:26.080 Sam Harris raised this question
02:27:28.440 in a podcast conversation
02:27:29.840 with Charles Murray
02:27:30.760 some argue
02:27:32.360 that we should not
02:27:33.280 talk about this
02:27:34.200 as doing so
02:27:35.260 could fuel
02:27:35.900 the racial supremacist
02:27:37.380 movements
02:27:37.720 that you mentioned
02:27:38.400 with potentially
02:27:39.140 horrific consequences
02:27:40.820 others
02:27:42.000 mainly on the
02:27:43.020 intellectual dark web
02:27:44.240 and to a very limited
02:27:45.960 extent in academia
02:27:47.080 think we should talk
02:27:48.480 about this topic
02:27:49.300 because average differences
02:27:50.960 in IQ scores
02:27:51.820 have existed for decades
02:27:53.040 they may have played
02:27:54.800 a role in generating
02:27:56.140 the disparate educational
02:27:57.600 and professional outcomes
02:27:59.080 that we observe
02:28:00.260 and care about
02:28:01.060 and thus that we cannot
02:28:02.580 properly analyze
02:28:03.860 these disparate outcomes
02:28:05.120 unless we do talk
02:28:06.120 about this subject
02:28:07.000 openly
02:28:07.820 geneticist David Reich
02:28:10.060 recently argued
02:28:11.000 in the New York Times
02:28:12.020 that if scientists
02:28:13.260 do not openly discuss
02:28:14.860 the biological basis
02:28:16.060 of race
02:28:16.700 pseudoscientists
02:28:18.300 could fill the vacuum
02:28:19.280 with dangerous consequences
02:28:21.000 furthermore
02:28:22.380 you Professor Peterson
02:28:23.780 are highly critical
02:28:25.220 of the oppression narrative
02:28:26.820 that permeates
02:28:28.260 segments of the academy
02:28:29.860 and activist left
02:28:31.160 and knowledge
02:28:32.280 about average differences
02:28:33.540 in IQ scores
02:28:34.600 between ethnic groups
02:28:36.040 while tough to assimilate
02:28:37.840 could puncture
02:28:38.900 this narrative
02:28:39.520 so the question is
02:28:41.360 what is your view
02:28:42.240 on all that I've just said
02:28:43.900 Jesus you guys
02:28:45.460 really did take a long time
02:28:46.680 to prepare these questions
02:28:47.860 didn't you
02:28:48.380 all right so
02:28:52.340 when I went to Harvard
02:28:56.020 I came from McGill
02:28:57.980 and I had spent
02:29:00.040 a lot of time
02:29:01.060 with my advisor there
02:29:03.480 and a research team
02:29:04.800 that he had
02:29:05.420 trying to understand
02:29:07.400 the genesis
02:29:08.020 of antisocial behavior
02:29:09.560 and among adolescents
02:29:13.080 mostly
02:29:13.620 so well
02:29:14.480 as kids as well
02:29:15.700 antisocial behavior
02:29:17.120 is very persistent
02:29:18.040 so if you have a child
02:29:19.040 who's conduct disordered
02:29:20.340 at the age of four
02:29:21.720 the probability
02:29:23.280 that they will be criminal
02:29:24.640 at the age of 15 or 20
02:29:26.400 is extremely high
02:29:27.680 it's unbelievably stable
02:29:29.600 it's a very dismal literature
02:29:31.060 because you see
02:29:32.320 these early onset
02:29:33.280 aggressive kids
02:29:34.460 and it's persistent
02:29:37.180 and then you look
02:29:38.200 at the intervention literature
02:29:39.240 and you throw up your hands
02:29:41.060 because no interventions work
02:29:43.060 and believe me
02:29:43.940 psychologists have tried
02:29:44.940 everything you could possibly imagine
02:29:46.740 and a bunch of things
02:29:47.820 that you can't
02:29:48.620 in order to ameliorate that
02:29:50.240 so we were really interested
02:29:51.700 in trying to understand
02:29:53.340 for example
02:29:53.920 if you're antisocial
02:29:55.820 by the age of four
02:29:56.900 then there isn't an intervention
02:29:58.840 that seems to be effective
02:29:59.980 so
02:30:00.940 and the standard
02:30:02.800 penological theory
02:30:03.840 is really quite horrifying
02:30:05.360 in this regard
02:30:06.100 because what you see
02:30:07.320 is that male aggression
02:30:08.320 peaks around the age of 15
02:30:09.800 and then it declines
02:30:10.900 fairly precipitously
02:30:11.960 and sort of normalizes
02:30:14.780 again by the age of 27
02:30:16.120 and standard penological theory
02:30:17.820 essentially is this cold-hearted
02:30:19.800 it's like
02:30:20.260 if you have someone
02:30:22.340 who's a multiple offender
02:30:23.520 you just throw them in prison
02:30:24.380 until they're 27
02:30:25.160 then they age out of it
02:30:27.100 and that's all there is to it
02:30:29.320 that's what we've got
02:30:31.260 now there's some downside to that
02:30:33.180 because there's a corollary literature
02:30:34.580 that suggests that
02:30:35.580 the worst thing that you can do
02:30:36.740 with antisocial people
02:30:37.720 is to group them together
02:30:38.840 which is what we do in prisons
02:30:40.620 so that's a whole mess
02:30:42.500 anyways
02:30:43.060 one of the things we were doing
02:30:45.180 was trying to see
02:30:45.860 if there might be cognitive
02:30:46.980 predictors of antisocial behavior
02:30:49.440 and so
02:30:49.920 we used this battery
02:30:51.380 of neuropsychological tests
02:30:52.920 that was put together
02:30:53.820 at the Montreal Neurological Institute
02:30:55.520 took about 11 hours
02:30:56.960 to administer
02:30:57.660 and hypothetically assessed
02:30:59.220 prefrontal cortical function
02:31:00.720 and we computerized that
02:31:02.860 reduced it to about 90 minutes
02:31:04.420 and then
02:31:04.840 assessed antisocial adolescence
02:31:08.300 in Montreal
02:31:09.300 and found out that
02:31:10.060 they did show deficits
02:31:11.120 in problem solving ability
02:31:13.020 that we associated with
02:31:14.780 prefrontal ability
02:31:16.520 when I got to Harvard
02:31:19.800 I thought
02:31:20.220 well that's interesting
02:31:21.160 we could use the neuropsych battery
02:31:23.800 to predict negative behavior
02:31:26.300 perhaps we could use it
02:31:28.380 to predict positive behavior
02:31:29.840 so I thought
02:31:30.540 well what if we
02:31:31.220 turned the neuropsych battery
02:31:32.640 over and thought
02:31:35.060 well can we predict grades
02:31:36.340 for example
02:31:37.000 because you know
02:31:37.680 that's a decent thing to predict
02:31:39.020 so we ran a study
02:31:40.620 we ran a study
02:31:42.100 that looked at
02:31:42.920 Harvard kids
02:31:43.660 University of Toronto kids
02:31:45.040 line workers
02:31:46.360 at a Milwaukee factory
02:31:47.760 and managers and executives
02:31:49.700 at the same factory
02:31:50.800 and what we found
02:31:51.560 was that
02:31:52.240 the average score
02:31:55.000 across these neuropsychological tests
02:31:56.860 they were kind of like games
02:31:58.080 they were game-like
02:31:59.040 you know
02:31:59.380 so in one test
02:32:01.800 there were five lights
02:32:03.100 in the middle of the screen
02:32:04.160 and a box was associated
02:32:06.000 with each light
02:32:07.040 and you had to learn
02:32:07.780 by trial and error
02:32:08.640 which box was associated
02:32:09.940 with each light
02:32:11.020 that was one of the tests
02:32:12.160 so we took people's average score
02:32:17.140 across the tests
02:32:18.060 because they seemed to clump together
02:32:19.580 into a single structure
02:32:21.600 you can find that out statistically
02:32:23.800 if you take a bunch of tests
02:32:25.140 you can find out
02:32:26.200 how they clump together statistically
02:32:27.720 by looking at their patterns of correlations
02:32:29.560 and you might get multiple clumps
02:32:31.200 which is what happens
02:32:32.020 with personality research
02:32:33.180 where you get five
02:32:34.000 or you might get a singular clump
02:32:35.880 which is what happens
02:32:36.780 in cognitive research
02:32:38.240 and we got a single clump
02:32:39.920 essentially
02:32:40.540 and then we were trying to figure out
02:32:42.820 if at the same time
02:32:44.720 I was reading the literature
02:32:45.700 on performance prediction
02:32:46.920 and there's an extensive literature
02:32:49.060 on performance prediction
02:32:50.120 a lot of it generated
02:32:51.020 by the armed forces
02:32:51.940 by the way
02:32:52.520 indicating that IQ
02:32:54.560 is a very good predictor
02:32:55.760 of long-term life success
02:32:56.960 and so here's the general rule
02:33:00.300 if your job is simple
02:33:02.680 which means you do the same thing every day
02:33:04.620 then IQ predicts how fast you'll learn the job
02:33:07.280 but not how well you do it
02:33:08.920 but if your job is complex
02:33:10.460 which means that the demands change
02:33:12.700 on an ongoing basis
02:33:13.820 then the best predictor of success
02:33:15.380 is general cognitive ability
02:33:16.900 and I learned that the general cognitive ability tests
02:33:21.420 clump together into a single factor
02:33:23.260 that's fluid intelligence or IQ
02:33:25.240 and then we didn't know
02:33:26.700 if the factor that we had found
02:33:28.240 was the same factor as IQ
02:33:30.500 and we still haven't really figured out
02:33:33.060 whether or not that was the case
02:33:34.140 because it kind of depends
02:33:35.080 on how you do the analysis
02:33:36.100 but anyways
02:33:37.040 I got deeply into the performance prediction literature
02:33:40.120 and I found out
02:33:40.940 well if you wanted to predict
02:33:41.900 people's performance in life
02:33:43.360 there's a couple of things
02:33:44.880 you need to know
02:33:45.440 you need to know
02:33:46.000 their general cognitive ability
02:33:47.240 if they're going to do a complex job
02:33:48.860 you need to know
02:33:50.320 their trait conscientiousness
02:33:52.080 some of you might have heard
02:33:53.500 that rebranded as grit
02:33:55.200 in a very corrupt act
02:33:56.720 by the way
02:33:57.320 because it's a good predictor
02:33:59.560 of long-term life success
02:34:00.880 freedom from negative emotion
02:34:03.440 low neuroticism
02:34:04.520 is another predictor
02:34:05.500 but it's sort of third
02:34:06.400 on the hierarchy
02:34:07.620 and then openness to experience
02:34:09.580 which is a personality trait
02:34:10.780 is associated with expertise
02:34:12.540 in creative domains
02:34:13.780 the evidence that
02:34:15.640 now I should tell you
02:34:16.900 this is such a complicated question
02:34:18.900 I should tell you how to make an IQ test
02:34:20.900 because it's actually really easy
02:34:22.400 and you need to know this
02:34:23.400 to actually understand what IQ is
02:34:25.400 so imagine that you generated
02:34:27.400 a set of 10,000 questions
02:34:30.400 about anything
02:34:31.900 they could be math problems
02:34:33.900 they could be general knowledge
02:34:34.900 they could be vocabulary
02:34:35.900 they could be multiple choice
02:34:36.900 it really doesn't matter
02:34:37.900 what they're about
02:34:38.900 as long as they require abstraction to solve
02:34:40.900 so they'd be formulated linguistically
02:34:43.400 but mathematically would also apply
02:34:45.400 and then you have those 10,000 questions
02:34:48.400 now you take a random set
02:34:49.900 of a hundred of those questions
02:34:51.900 and you give them to a thousand people
02:34:54.400 and all you do is sum up the answers
02:34:55.900 right?
02:34:56.400 from
02:34:56.900 so some people are going to get most of them right
02:34:58.900 some of them are going to get most of them wrong
02:35:00.900 you just rank order the people
02:35:02.400 in terms of their score
02:35:03.400 correct that for age
02:35:05.400 and you have IQ
02:35:06.400 that's all there is to it
02:35:08.400 and what you'll find is that no matter which random set
02:35:11.400 of a hundred questions you take
02:35:12.900 the people at the top of one random set
02:35:14.900 will be at the top of all the others
02:35:16.900 and with very, very, very high consistency
02:35:20.400 so one thing you need to know is that
02:35:21.900 if any social science claims
02:35:24.400 whatsoever are correct
02:35:26.900 then the IQ claims are correct
02:35:29.900 because the IQ claims are more psychometrically rigorous
02:35:33.400 than any other phenomenon
02:35:36.400 that's been discovered by social scientists
02:35:38.900 now the IQ literature is a dismal literature
02:35:41.900 no one likes it
02:35:42.900 here's why
02:35:43.900 here's an example
02:35:44.900 so here's a little
02:35:45.900 here's a fun little fact for you
02:35:47.900 for liberals and conservatives alike
02:35:49.900 because conservatives think
02:35:50.900 there's a job for everyone
02:35:51.900 if people just get off their asses
02:35:52.900 and get to work
02:35:53.900 and liberals think
02:35:54.900 well you can train anyone to do anything
02:35:56.900 it's like
02:35:57.400 no, there isn't a job for everyone
02:35:59.400 and no, you can't train everyone to do everything
02:36:02.400 that's wrong
02:36:03.900 and here's one of the consequences of that
02:36:05.900 so as I mentioned
02:36:07.900 the armed forces has done a lot of work on IQ
02:36:09.900 and they started back in 1919
02:36:11.900 and the reason they did that was because
02:36:13.900 well, for obvious reasons
02:36:15.900 let's say there's a war
02:36:17.900 and you want to get qualified people
02:36:19.900 into the officer positions as rapidly as possible
02:36:21.900 or you'll lose
02:36:23.900 so that's a reason
02:36:24.900 now the armed forces has experimented with IQ tests since 1919
02:36:30.900 and in the last 20 years
02:36:33.400 a law was passed as a consequence of that analysis
02:36:36.400 which was that it was illegal to induct anyone into the armed forces
02:36:39.400 who had an IQ of less than 83
02:36:41.400 now the question is why
02:36:44.400 and the answer was
02:36:45.400 all of that effort put in by the armed forces indicated
02:36:49.400 that if you had an IQ of 83 or less
02:36:51.400 there wasn't anything that you could be trained to do
02:36:53.400 in the military that wasn't positively counterproductive
02:36:55.400 now you've got to think about that
02:36:57.900 because the military is chronically desperate for people
02:37:01.900 it's not like people are lining up to be inducted
02:37:05.900 they have to go out and recruit
02:37:07.900 and it's not easy
02:37:08.900 and so they're desperate to get their hands on
02:37:10.900 every body they can possibly manage
02:37:12.900 and then especially in wartime
02:37:14.900 but also in peacetime
02:37:16.900 but then there was another reason too
02:37:17.900 which was the armed forces was also set up
02:37:19.900 from a policy perspective
02:37:21.400 to take people in the underclass
02:37:24.400 let's say
02:37:25.400 and train them and move them up
02:37:26.400 at least into the working class
02:37:27.900 or maybe the middle class
02:37:28.900 so there's a policy element to it too
02:37:30.400 and so even from that perspective
02:37:32.400 you could see that the military is desperate to bring people in
02:37:35.400 but with an IQ of 83 or less
02:37:38.400 it's not happening
02:37:39.400 ok, so how many people have an IQ of 83 or less?
02:37:43.400 10%
02:37:45.400 now, if that doesn't
02:37:49.400 if that doesn't hurt you to hear
02:37:53.900 then you didn't hear it properly
02:37:55.900 because what it implies is that
02:37:57.900 in a complex society like ours
02:37:59.900 and one that's becoming increasingly complex
02:38:01.900 there isn't anything for 10% of the population to do
02:38:06.900 alright, well what are we going to do?
02:38:08.900 are we going to ignore that?
02:38:09.900 are we going to run away from that?
02:38:11.900 and believe me, we have every reason to
02:38:13.900 or are we going to contend with the fact that we need to figure out
02:38:17.400 how it is
02:38:18.400 how it might be possible
02:38:21.400 to find a place for people on the lower end of the general cognitive distribution
02:38:27.400 to take their productive and worthwhile place in society
02:38:31.400 and that isn't just going to be a matter of dumping money down the hierarchy
02:38:35.400 because giving people who have nothing to do money isn't helpful
02:38:39.400 it doesn't work
02:38:40.400 it's not that simple
02:38:41.900 well
02:38:43.900 so that's kind of an answer to the question of whether or not we should deal with IQ forthrightly
02:38:49.400 it's like
02:38:50.400 if you can find a flaw in that logic
02:38:53.400 like just go right ahead
02:38:54.400 it's not like I was thrilled to death to discover all of this
02:38:57.400 by no stretch of the imagination was that the case
02:39:00.400 so
02:39:01.400 so what?
02:39:03.400 so IQ is reliable and valid
02:39:05.900 that's the first thing
02:39:07.400 it's more reliable and valid than any other psychometric test
02:39:10.900 ever designed by social scientists
02:39:12.900 by a factor of about 3
02:39:15.900 that's fact number 1
02:39:17.400 fact number 2 is
02:39:18.900 it predicts long-term life outcome
02:39:21.400 at about 0.3, 0.4
02:39:23.900 which leaves about 85%, 70-85% of the story unexplained
02:39:28.400 but it's still the best thing that we have
02:39:30.900 well it's also the case that in places like Great Britain
02:39:33.900 when IQ tests were first introduced
02:39:36.900 they were actually used by the socialists
02:39:38.900 and they were used to identify poor people
02:39:41.900 who had potential, cognitive potential
02:39:44.900 and to move them into higher, into institutes of higher education
02:39:48.900 so there's an upside
02:39:50.400 you know, a social upside as well
02:39:52.400 ethnic differences
02:39:55.400 this is something you can't say anything about
02:39:59.400 without immediately being killed
02:40:02.400 so I'm hesitant to broach the topic
02:40:05.400 but I'll tell you one thing that I did in the last week
02:40:08.400 that's relevant to this
02:40:09.400 so the
02:40:10.400 and this just shows you how complex the problem is
02:40:13.400 first of all we should point out that race is a very difficult thing to define
02:40:16.400 because racial boundaries aren't tight
02:40:18.900 and so when you talk about racial differences in IQ
02:40:22.900 you're faced with the thorny problem of defining race
02:40:25.900 and that's a big problem from a scientific perspective
02:40:27.900 but we'll leave that aside
02:40:29.900 and I wrote an article this week
02:40:32.900 somebody stood up at one point in one of my talks
02:40:36.900 and Vice, bless their hearts
02:40:39.900 took this particular question
02:40:41.900 and used it as an indication of the quality of the people
02:40:44.900 who are my so-called followers
02:40:46.900 and by the way the quality of my so-called followers is pretty damn high
02:40:50.400 and you can find that out quite rapidly
02:40:53.400 just by going looking at the YouTube comments
02:40:55.400 which are head and shoulders above the standard set of YouTube comments
02:40:59.400 I can tell you that
02:41:00.400 so someone asked me about the Jewish question
02:41:04.400 right
02:41:05.400 and the implication
02:41:07.400 it was actually someone Jewish
02:41:08.400 and the implication was that
02:41:10.400 Jews are over-represented in positions of authority and power
02:41:15.900 and
02:41:16.900 and I was
02:41:17.900 had just spoken for like an hour and a half
02:41:20.400 and
02:41:20.900 you know this guy had an axe to grind
02:41:22.400 and I thought
02:41:22.900 there's no goddamn way I'm getting into this at the moment
02:41:25.900 and so I said
02:41:27.900 I said I can't answer that question
02:41:29.900 but that's not a very good answer
02:41:31.400 so I wrote a blog post this week
02:41:32.900 and I said look
02:41:33.900 here's the situation
02:41:35.400 alright
02:41:36.400 Jews are over-represented in positions of power and authority
02:41:40.400 but then
02:41:40.900 let's open our eyes a little bit
02:41:42.400 hey
02:41:42.900 and think for like two or three seconds
02:41:44.900 and think
02:41:45.400 hey guess what
02:41:46.400 they're also over-represented in positions of competence
02:41:49.400 and it's not like we have more geniuses than we know what to do with
02:41:53.400 and if the Jews happen to be producing more of them
02:41:55.900 which they are by the way
02:41:57.400 then that's a pretty good thing for the rest of us
02:41:59.900 so let's not confuse competence with power and authority
02:42:02.900 even though that's a favorite trick of the radical leftists
02:42:05.400 who always fail to make that distinction
02:42:07.400 well
02:42:08.400 why
02:42:09.400 does this over-representation occur
02:42:11.400 because it does
02:42:12.400 it also
02:42:13.400 there's also over-representation in political movements
02:42:16.400 including radical political movements
02:42:18.400 okay
02:42:19.400 why
02:42:20.400 well answer one
02:42:21.400 Jewish conspiracy
02:42:23.400 okay
02:42:24.400 that's not a very good answer
02:42:25.400 we've had
02:42:26.400 we've used that answer before
02:42:28.400 alright
02:42:29.400 but
02:42:30.400 but do we have an alternative?
02:42:31.400 well here's an alternative
02:42:32.400 the average Ashkenazi IQ is somewhere between 110 and 115
02:42:38.400 which is about one standard deviation above the population average
02:42:42.400 and so what that means is that the average Ashkenazi slash European Jew
02:42:47.400 has an IQ that's higher than 85% of the population
02:42:52.400 that's a lot higher
02:42:54.400 now that doesn't make that much difference in the middle of the distribution
02:42:57.400 okay
02:42:58.400 but geniuses don't exist at the middle of the distribution
02:43:01.400 they exist at the tails of the distribution
02:43:04.400 and you don't need much of a move
02:43:06.400 at the mean to produce walloping differences at the tails
02:43:10.400 and the tails are important because
02:43:12.400 a lot of where we draw
02:43:14.400 we draw exceptional people from the exceptions
02:43:17.400 right
02:43:18.400 so here's an example
02:43:19.400 here's another example of the same thing
02:43:21.400 most engineers are male
02:43:24.400 why?
02:43:26.400 because men are more interested in things
02:43:28.400 and women are more interested in people
02:43:30.400 and you might say
02:43:31.400 well that's sociocultural
02:43:32.400 it's like
02:43:33.400 no it's not
02:43:34.400 and we know that
02:43:35.400 because
02:43:36.400 if you stack up countries by their
02:43:38.400 by their egalitarian social policies
02:43:41.400 which you can do quite effectively
02:43:43.400 and then you look at the over-representation of men in STEM fields
02:43:47.400 the over-representation increases as the countries become more egalitarian
02:43:53.400 so it's not sociocultural
02:43:56.400 okay
02:43:57.400 now men aren't that much more interested in things than women
02:44:01.400 it's one standard deviation
02:44:02.400 which is about the same difference by the way
02:44:04.400 between the population norm and the Ashkenazi Jews
02:44:07.400 but if you're looking at the person
02:44:08.400 the one person in 20
02:44:10.400 or the one person in 50
02:44:12.400 who's most
02:44:13.400 who's hyper interested in things
02:44:15.400 and thus likely to become an engineer
02:44:18.400 then most of them are men
02:44:20.400 here's another example of the same thing
02:44:22.400 men are more aggressive than women
02:44:25.400 now
02:44:26.400 you might ask
02:44:27.400 how much
02:44:28.400 an answer to that
02:44:29.400 the best place to look at that is in Sweden
02:44:31.400 where the egalitarian policies have been laid out for a long period of time
02:44:35.400 and you can
02:44:36.400 you can get a more direct inference about biology
02:44:39.400 if you took a random man and a random woman out of the population
02:44:43.400 and you had to bet on who was more aggressive
02:44:45.400 and you bet on the man
02:44:46.400 you'd be right 60% of the time
02:44:48.400 so that's not that much right
02:44:50.400 it deviates from 50-50
02:44:52.400 but it's not like 90-10
02:44:54.400 it's 60-40
02:44:55.400 okay
02:44:56.400 so?
02:44:57.400 so what does that mean?
02:44:58.400 well
02:44:59.400 we've got a tail problem here again
02:45:01.400 let's say that now you decide to go out onto the extremes of aggression
02:45:04.400 and you identify the most aggressive one in a hundred persons
02:45:09.400 they're all men
02:45:11.400 guess who's in prison?
02:45:13.400 those people
02:45:15.400 that's why most of the people in prison are men
02:45:18.400 and so this is elementary
02:45:20.400 part of the problem in our society is that we don't understand statistics
02:45:24.400 we don't understand that you can have relatively small differences at the population level
02:45:29.400 that produce walloping consequences at the tails of the distribution
02:45:34.400 okay
02:45:35.400 so back to IQ
02:45:38.400 one final thing to say about IQ
02:45:42.400 the ethnic differences are difficult to dispense with
02:45:46.400 it's not easy to make them go away
02:45:49.400 you can say well the tests aren't culture fair
02:45:52.400 well here's a test of that
02:45:54.400 so imagine you test group A with an IQ test
02:45:57.400 and you test group B with an IQ test
02:46:00.400 and then you look at their actual performance in whatever you're predicting
02:46:04.400 if the test was biased against ethnic group A
02:46:07.400 then it would under predict their performance
02:46:10.400 and that doesn't happen
02:46:12.400 now you could say well there's systemic bias in the performance measures
02:46:16.400 and the potential measures
02:46:18.400 and that's a possibility
02:46:19.400 alright
02:46:20.400 now one other thing about that
02:46:23.400 there's a real danger in the
02:46:26.400 ethnicity IQ debate
02:46:28.400 and the danger is that we confuse intelligence with value
02:46:33.400 or that we include
02:46:35.400 we confuse intelligence with human value
02:46:39.400 that's a better way of thinking about it
02:46:41.400 and one of the things that we're going to have to understand here is that that's a mistake
02:46:46.400 is that being more intelligent doesn't make you a better person
02:46:49.400 that's not the case
02:46:51.400 it makes you more useful for complex cognitive operations
02:46:54.400 but you can be pretty damn horrific as a genius son of a bitch
02:47:00.400 right? it's morally neutral
02:47:01.400 and we also know that from the psychometric data by the way
02:47:04.400 there doesn't seem to be any relationship whatsoever between intelligence and virtue
02:47:07.400 and so if it does turn out that nature and the fates do not align with our egalitarian presuppositions
02:47:14.400 which is highly probable
02:47:16.400 we shouldn't therefore make the mistake of assuming that if group A or person A is lower on one of these attributes than group B or person B
02:47:24.400 that that is somehow reflective of their intrinsic value as human beings
02:47:29.400 that's a big mistake
02:47:35.400 that's
02:47:36.400 I don't have anything else to say about that
02:47:39.400 Okay, so
02:47:41.400 I had three more questions
02:47:44.400 and so maybe slightly shorter answers to these three
02:47:47.400 like maybe around
02:47:49.400 Well hopefully they're simpler questions
02:47:51.400 you know
02:47:52.400 average five minutes
02:47:54.400 Okay
02:47:55.400 and then we will open it up
02:47:57.400 so
02:47:58.400 another taboo
02:48:00.400 is to celebrate European culture
02:48:04.400 multiculturalists get pretty unhappy when Europeans start expressing pride in their culture or heritage
02:48:11.400 many especially on the left
02:48:13.400 do not draw much of a distinction
02:48:15.400 at least in practice
02:48:17.400 between European pride and white supremacy
02:48:20.400 you care about freedom of the individual
02:48:22.400 the individual's
02:48:24.400 freedom to think
02:48:25.400 to speak
02:48:26.400 to associate
02:48:27.400 in short
02:48:28.400 to act as he sees fit
02:48:29.400 without external compulsion
02:48:31.400 as long as he doesn't infringe on the similar liberties of others
02:48:35.400 Professor Ricardo Duchesne
02:48:37.400 a historical sociologist and professor at the University of New Brunswick
02:48:41.400 argues that quote
02:48:42.400 individualism is a unique attribute of European peoples
02:48:47.400 quote
02:48:48.400 it has been exported to some degree to other nations
02:48:51.400 but in my view
02:48:52.400 it is not something that comes to them naturally
02:48:55.400 so he continues
02:48:57.400 quote
02:48:58.400 you can't play the game of we're all individuals
02:49:01.400 we have to affirm and be proud of our ethnic identity and heritage
02:49:06.400 to preserve the West's curious individualism
02:49:10.400 if Europeans become minorities in the West
02:49:13.400 he argues
02:49:14.400 the founding idea of the West
02:49:16.400 that no entity
02:49:17.400 not an individual
02:49:19.400 not a community
02:49:20.400 not the state
02:49:21.400 can justly deprive an individual of life, liberty, or property by force
02:49:25.400 no matter what the individual's race, class, or religion
02:49:28.400 I wouldn't be surprised if Duchesne when he made this statement
02:49:33.400 had you in mind
02:49:34.400 look
02:49:39.400 the medieval Europeans identified seven deadly sins for a reason
02:49:45.400 and one of them was pride
02:49:46.400 it's like
02:49:49.400 let's make the presumption
02:49:50.400 I do believe that
02:49:52.400 for
02:49:53.400 for reasons that aren't obvious
02:49:56.400 that the West
02:49:58.400 has got some things right
02:50:00.400 we've got the sovereignty of the individual right
02:50:02.400 that's the most fundamental thing we've got right
02:50:05.400 we've articulated that I think in a remarkable way
02:50:07.400 not only theologically, philosophically
02:50:11.400 in our body of laws
02:50:12.400 in our societies
02:50:14.400 and one of the consequences of that
02:50:15.400 as it's had its effect on the rest of the world
02:50:18.400 is that
02:50:19.400 everyone is getting richer quite fast
02:50:21.400 and that's a really good thing
02:50:24.400 okay, having said that
02:50:25.400 it's like, am I proud of that?
02:50:27.400 it's like, I didn't do that
02:50:29.400 what the hell?
02:50:31.400 pride
02:50:32.400 what's that?
02:50:34.400 that's not the right response
02:50:35.400 how about responsibility for that?
02:50:37.400 how would that be?
02:50:38.400 it's like, you're part of this
02:50:40.400 this great
02:50:41.400 and unlikely
02:50:45.400 set of propositions
02:50:46.400 this strange set of propositions
02:50:47.400 that says that in some
02:50:50.400 ineffable manner
02:50:52.400 the poorest person is as valuable as the king
02:50:56.400 it's like, how the hell did we ever figure that out?
02:50:58.400 that's an impossible thing to think
02:51:00.400 and yet that's the bedrock of our legal system
02:51:04.400 that's nothing to be proud of
02:51:05.400 that's something to tremble before
02:51:07.400 to take on as an ethical burden
02:51:10.400 and not to wave a flag for how wonderful you are
02:51:13.400 that you happen to have the same skin color
02:51:15.400 as some of the people who thought that up
02:51:18.400 it's not the right response
02:51:20.400 it's like, it's to open your eyes and recognize that as a miracle
02:51:24.400 and a relatively new miracle on the world stage
02:51:28.400 and to participate in the process of upholding that in your personal and your public life
02:51:34.400 that's not pride in European tradition
02:51:37.400 like, when I go to Europe
02:51:39.400 and I love going to Europe
02:51:40.400 and the European cities are
02:51:41.400 they're unbelievable masterpieces
02:51:43.400 which is why they're completely flooded by pilgrims, right?
02:51:46.400 tourists, pilgrims
02:51:49.400 who go there to look at the beauty
02:51:50.400 it's like, I don't feel pride about that
02:51:53.400 I feel like I have something to live up to
02:51:57.400 that's not the same thing, man
02:51:59.400 and so these right-wingers in this
02:52:01.400 it's like, look what we've done
02:52:02.400 it's like, no, it's not you that did that
02:52:06.400 that's something, man
02:52:07.400 you gotta have your act together
02:52:09.400 before you would dare to say, well, that was me
02:52:11.400 it's like, yeah, sure, sure it was you
02:52:13.400 yeah, right
02:52:15.400 no
02:52:16.400 that's hard
02:52:17.400 to stand up and take your place
02:52:19.400 in that kind of historical process
02:52:22.400 that unlikely, miraculous historical process
02:52:25.400 not to just feel ashamed
02:52:27.400 at the way that you're presently constituted
02:52:30.400 in the face of that
02:52:31.400 means that you're deluded
02:52:34.400 and you're using your great fortune
02:52:38.400 at being a beneficiary of that system
02:52:41.400 look at what we've got here
02:52:43.400 this great piece that we're inhabiting
02:52:45.400 right now
02:52:46.400 you're using your unearned
02:52:52.400 the unearned gift that's been granted to you
02:52:54.400 as a source of personal pride in your
02:52:57.400 accomplishments due to your skin
02:53:01.400 it's like, no
02:53:02.400 not good
02:53:03.400 not a good argument
02:53:05.400 so
02:53:06.400 and that doesn't mean that
02:53:07.400 well, there's nothing valuable about European culture
02:53:10.400 there's plenty
02:53:12.400 there's plenty about it that's valuable
02:53:14.400 it's not even so clear to what degree it's European
02:53:16.400 I mean, it came out of the Middle East, you know
02:53:18.400 I mean, who
02:53:21.400 it's so muddle-headed that you hardly know where to start
02:53:24.400 so
02:53:25.400 hopefully that was less than five minutes
02:53:27.400 there we go
02:53:28.400 dispensed with the radical right-wingers in four minutes
02:53:32.400 I've heard a number of interesting things about Islam
02:53:36.400 from you and one of your intellectual soulmates, Camille Paglia
02:53:41.400 Paglia says that men and women benefit in many ways
02:53:44.400 from living in largely separate worlds
02:53:46.400 as they did in traditional European societies
02:53:49.400 and obviously as they do in much of the Muslim world today
02:53:53.400 relatedly, Paglia considers passionate masculinity
02:53:56.400 a critical force for defending, sustaining, and advancing civilization
02:54:01.400 and she argues that passionate masculinity
02:54:03.400 while virtually moribund
02:54:05.400 in the western middle and upper classes
02:54:07.400 is alive and well in the Muslim world
02:54:10.400 you have expressed some sympathy for the Muslim critique of the West
02:54:15.400 its godlessness, its spiritual void, its materialism
02:54:18.400 its technology-induced removal from life's elemental realities
02:54:22.400 you've said, it is extraordinarily naive to believe that the differences between European culture
02:54:29.400 and Islamic culture are not about anything fundamental
02:54:34.400 you've expressed concern that Islam is a totalizing system
02:54:38.400 and in a quote that stood out to me
02:54:41.400 you said in a Patreon chat on YouTube that in your view
02:54:45.400 the only countries in the world that are essentially worth living in
02:54:48.400 in any real sense are the ones that are predicated on the Judeo-Christian tradition
02:54:54.400 and manifested in the western body of laws, unquote.
02:54:58.400 So an open-ended question, how would you synthesize your perspective on Islam
02:55:02.400 and the fact that the Muslim populations of Europe and Canada
02:55:06.400 a product of recent immigration are growing and reproducing much faster
02:55:10.400 than the European descended populations in these countries?
02:55:13.400 Man, you guys really did spend a lot of time coming up with troublesome questions, didn't you?
02:55:24.400 See, the problem is, the problem, one of the problems is that I'm an ignorant man
02:55:30.400 and there's lots of things that I don't know
02:55:33.400 and I don't know, I don't understand Islam
02:55:36.400 I don't know enough about it to be an intelligent commentary on it
02:55:41.400 I've done my best to peck away at the edges
02:55:45.400 but, you know, it would require multiple years of study
02:55:49.400 to understand the similarities and differences between the two viewpoints
02:55:54.400 It looks to me like what Islam did was take a group of radically disparate tribes
02:56:03.400 and unite them under a single ethos
02:56:09.400 Of course, the Muslim civilization expanded more rapidly than any other civilization ever had
02:56:15.400 and occupied a very large part of the world, which, of course, it still does
02:56:20.400 Perhaps there's something to be said for that unifying tendency
02:56:25.400 There's a problem
02:56:38.400 And maybe this is at the core of the problem
02:56:42.400 There's no distinction between church and state in Islam
02:56:47.400 And there is a distinction between church and state in the West
02:56:52.400 It isn't obvious to me
02:56:56.400 If it's the case that our culture is
02:57:00.400 grounded in an underlying, let's call it literary metaphysics, something like that, a religious metaphysic
02:57:07.400 Part of the bedrock of our culture is the idea of the separation between church and state
02:57:15.400 And as far as I can tell
02:57:17.400 That idea doesn't exist in the Muslim world
02:57:20.400 And so I cannot understand how that faith is commensurate with the institutions of the West
02:57:25.400 It doesn't seem to me that there's any evidence that it's commensurate
02:57:31.400 Because the number of Islamic democracies is, let's call it, finite
02:57:37.400 The best example has probably been Turkey
02:57:40.400 And Turkey, as far as I can tell, isn't doing that well at the moment on the democratic front
02:57:45.400 And it looked like the great shining hope
02:57:48.400 And a lot of that was a consequence of secularization
02:58:00.400 You know, I've spent a lot of time, when I was writing Maps of Meaning, for example
02:58:04.400 Looking for commonalities among religious viewpoints
02:58:07.400 And I was able to find deep commonalities, I thought, between Buddhism and Christianity
02:58:11.400 And Taoism and Christianity, and Hinduism and Christianity, for that matter
02:58:17.400 It was a lot harder when it came to Islam
02:58:19.400 It's not a faith that's opened itself up to me
02:58:22.400 I don't understand it well
02:58:32.400 But I hope that people of good will
02:58:36.400 Can build a bridge between the two cultures
02:58:41.400 Because the alternative is too gloomy to contemplate
02:58:51.400 And finally, you've stated, quote, women are more agreeable by nature than men
02:58:58.400 And agreeable people are compassionate toward those they see as suffering
02:59:01.400 And that seems to include any minority
02:59:05.400 Especially when you combine that with a kind of neo-Marxist doctrine
02:59:09.400 That claims that anyone who has an advantage swiped it
02:59:13.400 Unquote
02:59:15.400 Women have been voting for a century now
02:59:17.400 And this, you suggested in a Patreon chat
02:59:20.400 May help to explain why, in the West
02:59:22.400 We've collectively decided that, quote,
02:59:25.400 Egalitarianism and conflict avoidance
02:59:28.400 Constitute the two highest virtues
02:59:30.400 And trump everything else
02:59:32.400 Including free speech
02:59:34.400 Unquote
02:59:36.400 You've said
02:59:38.400 That in the West today
02:59:39.400 We are perhaps for the first time in history
02:59:41.400 Seeing on the political left
02:59:43.400 Or on segments of the political left
02:59:45.400 What a female totalitarianism would look like
02:59:49.400 Unquote
02:59:50.400 Elaborate
02:59:52.400 I did a research project with one of my students
02:59:58.400 We haven't published it, unfortunately, for a variety of reasons
03:00:02.400 She's been quite ill and I've been quite preoccupied
03:00:05.400 So those are the two barriers at the moment
03:00:08.400 But the first thing we wanted to do was to find out
03:00:11.400 Whether there was actually such a thing as political correctness
03:00:14.400 You can actually do that technically as a social scientist
03:00:17.400 So what you do is, this is what we did is
03:00:18.400 We got a group of people together and we collected a whole bunch of statements that seemed to be vaguely associated with the idea of political correctness
03:00:26.400 So maybe you could think, well, it's a media construct
03:00:28.400 And that's fine, you can go analyze media statements and then you can collect ideas that seem to be associated with whatever political correctness is
03:00:35.400 We collected about 400 of those
03:00:39.400 And then we asked, we turned them into questions and we asked a thousand people for their opinions
03:00:44.400 Then you can do this statistical process called a factor analysis
03:00:48.400 And it's the same thing that pulls out a single factor of IQ from a group of questions, for example
03:00:52.400 It's the same thing that produced the big five personality model
03:00:54.400 And what the factor analysis does is tell you
03:00:58.400 If questions group together
03:01:01.400 So let's say you have opinion A
03:01:04.400 Well, if you have opinion A, if there's a hundred of you, everyone who has opinion A also has opinion B and opinion C
03:01:10.400 And if that's the case, then those clump together
03:01:13.400 There's something about them that's the same
03:01:15.400 Now what we could have found was that when we analyzed these 400 questions there was like 50 clumps
03:01:22.400 And so that would have blown the
03:01:24.400 There's such a thing as political correctness hypothesis out of the water
03:01:28.400 But that isn't what happened, we found two clumps
03:01:30.400 One of which looked like something like moderate leftism and the other that looked very much like totalitarian political correctness
03:01:37.400 And it was a very, very robust finding and we replicated it as well
03:01:41.400 She did this for her master's thesis, by the way
03:01:45.400 And then we looked at what predicted these beliefs
03:01:49.400 First of all, the correlation between the moderate leftist clump of questions and the radical leftist clump of questions actually wasn't very high
03:01:57.400 And so one of the things that we surmise is that there's an actual division on the left between the moderates and the radicals
03:02:03.400 And that's just not played itself out
03:02:05.400 And I think you can actually see that happening by the proclivity of the radical leftists to devour themselves
03:02:11.400 Right, so which happens on a very regular basis
03:02:14.400 Or perhaps you can see it in the proclivity of the radical leftists to go after the moderates when the moderates criticize the radicals
03:02:22.400 Whatever, so there's two clumps to political correctness
03:02:25.400 Both of them were predicted by trait agreeableness
03:02:29.400 Which is one of the traits that women score higher on than men
03:02:31.400 It's the antithesis of aggression, by the way
03:02:34.400 And also by being female
03:02:37.400 Which was a real shock to us because most of the
03:02:39.400 So let's say females and males differ with regards to some outcome
03:02:42.400 You try to figure out why that is
03:02:44.400 It might be just because they're female
03:02:46.400 But there's all sorts of things associated with being female or male that are like second-order complications
03:02:51.400 What we found almost invariably with the personality literature is if you look at differences between men and women
03:02:56.400 And then you control for personality, the differences go away
03:03:01.400 So they're not differences between men and women per se, they're differences between personality
03:03:05.400 But with political correctness we found an effect of agreeableness, which was a pure personality effect, and an effect of being female
03:03:12.400 So we also found a pronounced effect of having taken at least one seminar that was politically correct in its orientation
03:03:18.400 So that had a walloping effect
03:03:21.400 So there does seem to be something about political, according to that research, which, you know
03:03:27.400 I try to rely on better research, but none has been done
03:03:32.400 So that's the best that I've got
03:03:34.400 And the woman who did this research is very, very smart
03:03:37.400 And the study was well done, so I think it's credible
03:03:39.400 So, and one of the things that's interesting to me about that is that it does tie into the Freudian nightmare of the devouring mother, essentially
03:03:49.400 Which was Freud's, I think, signal contribution to psychopathology
03:03:52.400 You know, for most of Freud's clients were people who were struggling to get out of the clutches of their family, right?
03:03:58.400 And part of that is human beings are very dependent, right?
03:04:01.400 Because, well, because we have this incredibly long period of development
03:04:06.400 30 years, maybe, but certainly 18 years
03:04:10.400 So it's hard to struggle up from infancy, mature and leave as an independent creature
03:04:16.400 And lots of people, you see this, if you're a clinician, you see this all the time
03:04:20.400 People are so tangled up in their families that they can't get away from them
03:04:23.400 And that's the Oedipal situation that Freud described so brilliantly
03:04:28.400 And Jung also elaborated on it
03:04:32.400 A lot of that's a consequence of hyper-dependence, right?
03:04:35.400 It's the danger of over-protection
03:04:39.400 Now there's a rule, if you're dealing with elderly people, say, in an elder care institution
03:04:44.400 And the rule is something like, don't do anything for your charges that they can do themselves
03:04:49.400 It's kind of a harsh rule
03:04:51.400 You know, if you see someone struggling with their buttons, maybe they're three years old
03:04:53.400 You want to rush over and help
03:04:56.400 It's like, well, maybe you don't
03:04:58.400 Because they need to learn how to do up their damn buttons
03:05:01.400 Or if they're 85
03:05:03.400 They need to maintain their independence as much as possible without your compassion stealing it from them
03:05:10.400 Okay, well, we could hypothesize that there would be no pathology as a consequence of the female rise to political power
03:05:17.400 But given that females are human beings too, and we're pretty much rife with pathology
03:05:23.400 The probability that there'll be a downside is like there is to male participation
03:05:29.400 Which would be more aggressive and hyper-compet... aggressiveness and hyper-competition
03:05:33.400 The probability that there would be a downside is extraordinarily high
03:05:37.400 Well, why wouldn't it be a downside associated with hyper-protectiveness?
03:05:40.400 It's exactly what you'd expect
03:05:41.400 And then what you see playing out in the political landscape, as far as I can tell, and maybe I'm wrong, is
03:05:49.400 Wherever there's an inequality, there's an oppressor-oppression narrative
03:05:53.400 And so anyone who stacks up at the bottom of a hierarchy is a victim-slash-infant
03:06:00.400 And anyone at the top is an oppressor-slash-predator
03:06:02.400 And I think confusing the hierarchical structure, especially when it's based on competence
03:06:09.400 And Western structures of hierarchy are based in large part, although not entirely, on competence
03:06:16.400 Confusing that with a predator-infant or oppressor-oppression relationship is a very bad idea
03:06:24.400 Now, having said that, it's obvious that every social structure has a tyrannical element
03:06:31.400 Like nobody in their right mind is going to say, well, our cultural structures are 100% fair and just
03:06:39.400 Obviously they're not, and every single person in this room, and some far more than others, have been brutalized by the social structure
03:06:46.400 Which takes you around the neck, shakes the hell out of you, and says, you better be like everyone else, or else, right?
03:06:55.400 That's the tyrannical aspect of the social structure
03:06:57.400 So you have to be naive not to think that there's some oppressor-oppression dynamic in a social structure
03:07:05.400 But to make that the only element of the discussion is extraordinarily dangerous
03:07:10.400 I mean, one of the things that looking at terrible things has done for me, is make me a very grateful person
03:07:19.400 Like when I walk out on the street, and I see that people aren't at each other's throats
03:07:24.400 I really think that that's a miracle, like I was just in Manhattan for a week, you know?
03:07:29.400 If your eyes are open, that place is an absolute miracle
03:07:32.400 I mean, there's way too many people there
03:07:34.400 Seven million people come in a day, right?
03:07:35.400 There's way too many people, they're just stacked on top of each other
03:07:40.400 There's all these massive skyscrapers, and they all stand up
03:07:43.400 There they are, all standing up
03:07:45.400 All the traffic lights work, all the electricity works
03:07:48.400 The buildings aren't blowing up one after another because of natural gas leaks
03:07:52.400 They just don't blow up, and people aren't, like, beating each other to death with clubs in the street
03:07:57.400 It's like, so when I go outside in New York, I think, my God, how did we manage this?
03:08:01.400 Because I'm a Hobbesian by nature, you know?
03:08:06.400 I think, and it's not like I'm entirely pessimistic
03:08:10.400 But I think that you're naive if you don't think that the natural state of human beings is one of brutality
03:08:17.400 All you have to do is look at history, and you'd be convinced of that very rapidly
03:08:20.400 And so the fact that, look at us, we can all sit in here, we don't know who, we don't know each other
03:08:26.400 And we're having a contentious political discussion
03:08:29.400 And like, nothing terrible is happening
03:08:32.400 And if you don't see that as a miracle, then you're way too protected for your own good
03:08:37.400 So, well, so back to the, back to the agreeableness issue
03:08:42.400 There are tyrannies of care
03:08:47.400 The psychoanalyst said the good mother fails
03:08:51.400 And what that means is that when your kid is three years old, two years old, and stumbling around, making mistakes
03:08:58.400 You back the hell off, and you let them make mistakes
03:09:02.400 And you don't view the world as infant and predator, and you don't project that onto the political system
03:09:06.400 Because it's not a good idea, especially if those who, especially for those who you're misdiagnosing as predators
03:09:15.400 Okay, so now we are going to open it up for Q&A
03:09:18.400 Alright, so the idea that I've put thought into this is perhaps an optimistic one
03:09:23.400 But, as you might imagine, you've been a topic of conversation on this campus a lot in the past week or so
03:09:28.400 Certainly among a lot of us who discuss politics
03:09:30.400 And one of the things that sort of united people who like and dislike a lot of your ideas is that we appreciate your defense of free speech
03:09:36.400 And we appreciate you coming here to talk about it with us
03:09:39.400 But one of the things I thought was really interesting is Professor Van Dyke addressed the distinction between you and Jonathan Haidt
03:09:44.400 And you mentioned this as sort of a temperamental one
03:09:47.400 And I think, I'm sure that's true to some extent, but I noticed you've made a lot of more sort of substantively inflammatory claims
03:09:53.400 Like in the course of this lecture you called the authors of Facebook posts demons and totalitarians
03:09:59.400 In past events you've called them things like neo-Marxists, cultural Marxists
03:10:04.400 You've called them, I believe, a fifth column that is committing treason against the West
03:10:09.400 And it seems to me that this is more than temperamental, this is a substantive difference
03:10:12.400 It's a substantive difference, yes
03:10:14.400 And another thing you've done is that unlike Haidt you have a more sort of comprehensive political program
03:10:19.400 You've talked a lot in defense of traditional hierarchies, both of gender, of class, so on
03:10:24.400 Though emphatically not of race
03:10:26.400 And so it seems like
03:10:28.400 I haven't talked about defensive traditional hierarchies in terms of gender and class, that's not true
03:10:32.400 Well you've talked about hierarchies in society, you've talked about
03:10:36.400 Yeah, that's true, I have done that
03:10:38.400 But I haven't justified them on the basis of gender and class
03:10:41.400 Or whatever the two categories
03:10:43.400 Not okay, that's an important distinction
03:10:46.400 But you defend hierarchies in society in a way that
03:10:49.400 You talk a lot about the Pareto distribution, yes?
03:10:52.400 That doesn't mean I defend it
03:10:53.400 Well okay, you
03:10:54.400 No, not well okay
03:10:56.400 Yes, yes
03:10:58.400 Well I mean, I think you talk a lot
03:11:01.400 Observing that something exists
03:11:02.400 Yes
03:11:03.400 Is not the same as defending it
03:11:04.400 How in the world
03:11:05.400 Well people attack it, right?
03:11:06.400 What's that?
03:11:07.400 And you don't, people attack it
03:11:09.400 Attack what?
03:11:10.400 Attack the hierarchies of society as inherently unjust, right?
03:11:13.400 Well they're unjust
03:11:15.400 Yes
03:11:16.400 But they're also useful
03:11:17.400 Okay, so you say they're useful
03:11:18.400 Some people would disagree with that proposition
03:11:19.400 Look at it this way
03:11:20.400 Okay, look at it this way
03:11:22.400 You obviously think that it's worthwhile to stand up and ask a question
03:11:27.400 Yes
03:11:28.400 So you think that standing up and asking a question is better than not standing up and asking a question
03:11:33.400 Yes
03:11:34.400 Okay, that's a hierarchy
03:11:35.400 Yes
03:11:36.400 Of values
03:11:37.400 Yes
03:11:38.400 Okay, without the hierarchy of values you couldn't act
03:11:39.400 Of course
03:11:40.400 No, no, not of course
03:11:42.400 Well wait
03:11:43.400 It's partly why I'm defending the hierarchy
03:11:44.400 Without a hierarchy there's no impetus to act
03:11:45.400 No one disagrees about the facts of the hierarchy, right?
03:11:47.400 What's that?
03:11:48.400 In society, right?
03:11:49.400 No, there's multiple hierarchies in society
03:11:50.400 Okay, there are multiple hierarchies in society
03:11:51.400 Okay, there are multiple hierarchies in society, right?
03:11:52.400 Yes
03:11:53.400 And you say that they are based in, you invoke the lobster, right?
03:11:55.400 That they are based in nature
03:11:58.400 I said that they were inevitable
03:11:59.400 Yes
03:12:00.400 Yes, that they were inevitable
03:12:01.400 Some people disagree with that
03:12:02.400 Right, that doesn't mean that they're good
03:12:03.400 But my point is that, this is generally relative to it
03:12:05.400 You have a broader point than free speech
03:12:08.400 This is one of the things you talk about, yes?
03:12:11.400 Yes
03:12:12.400 Okay, whereas I think there are some other activists who focus more exclusively on free speech
03:12:15.400 I'm not an activist
03:12:16.400 There are some other individuals who engage in public political speech
03:12:20.400 Okay
03:12:21.400 Yeah?
03:12:22.400 Who focus more exclusively on free speech
03:12:24.400 Whereas you have other goals in mind
03:12:26.400 But one of the things that your more inflammatory language
03:12:29.400 And it's fair, it's a substantive disagreement
03:12:31.400 Has done, I think, is it's politicized this free speech to an extent that someone like Haidt hasn't
03:12:36.400 I've noticed that when someone hears the term free speech now
03:12:39.400 They associate it with a specific set of thinkers
03:12:41.400 Often as viewed as on the extreme right
03:12:43.400 And I think, I think arguably that's the problem of all factions in society
03:12:47.400 Because free speech should be a universal value
03:12:49.400 Polls certainly suggest that it's coming under increasing threat from both sides
03:12:53.400 But I suppose the heart of my question
03:12:55.400 In addition to, of course, these other observations
03:12:57.400 Is that do you believe free speech is your primary end
03:13:01.400 Or do you believe these other points you're making are important
03:13:03.400 Because I've heard you a bunch of times defend free speech sort of contextually
03:13:07.400 Like you've complained about some of the laws in Canada that you dislike
03:13:10.400 That they institutionalize false facts into the law
03:13:13.400 But it seems to me that an absolutist defense of free speech makes no preference as to true or false
03:13:18.400 The point is that something, you are being forced to say something
03:13:21.400 It would be as bad as if you were forced to say something that it's true
03:13:24.400 Because the point of free speech is that you can say whatever you want, right?
03:13:28.400 No, the point of free speech is so that you can think your way through life
03:13:31.400 Yes
03:13:32.400 Without running like headlong into a brick wall
03:13:34.400 But being told to think position A versus position B is just as bad, right?
03:13:38.400 Even if one is true and the other is not
03:13:40.400 Okay, well there was a bunch of questions
03:13:42.400 Yes
03:13:43.400 Good job, by the way
03:13:44.400 Well, actually, wait, can I just ask one additional addendum
03:13:47.400 Which is, I think the politicization of free speech is by far the biggest threat to free speech
03:13:56.400 Because this has always been
03:13:57.400 No, the radical leftists are the biggest threat to free speech
03:13:59.400 Well, okay, so this is a disagreement
03:14:01.400 But I get your point
03:14:02.400 As the professor alluded to in previous questions
03:14:05.400 The substantive threats to free speech in much of the world, in Europe certainly
03:14:09.400 I think in the United States as well from the government have come from the radical right
03:14:13.400 And I think it's fair to say that on the specific narrow subset of certain departments on liberal arts colleges
03:14:18.400 It's fair to say a threat comes from the left
03:14:20.400 Though its scope is in dispute
03:14:22.400 But my question is, do you think that the way you talk about free speech
03:14:26.400 The way you link it to specific issues
03:14:28.400 The way you use inflammatory language
03:14:30.400 And the way you seem to make it
03:14:31.400 You seem to defend a specific set of free speech
03:14:33.400 There are certainly plenty of instances of free speech attacked on the other side
03:14:36.400 That you don't mention as much
03:14:38.400 Do you think you risk politicizing this?
03:14:40.400 Because it seems to me that
03:14:41.400 Yes
03:14:42.400 Okay, and do you not think that's a far greater threat?
03:14:44.400 Because for example
03:14:45.400 No
03:14:46.400 The NRA is a group in the United States that defends guns rights, right?
03:14:49.400 Okay, hold it
03:14:50.400 Yes
03:14:51.400 We need a question
03:14:52.400 Yes, okay
03:14:53.400 My question is
03:14:54.400 Like I said, you're doing fine
03:14:55.400 But it's just too much
03:14:56.400 Like I can't keep it straight
03:14:57.400 Do you think that your behavior risks politicizing it?
03:15:01.400 And do you think that politicization is justified?
03:15:04.400 I think my behavior risks politicizing it, yes
03:15:07.400 I would rather it not be politicized
03:15:10.400 And I'm doing what I can to manage that risk
03:15:13.400 However, it's become political in my country
03:15:16.400 Because the government implemented compelled speech legislation
03:15:20.400 So I wasn't complaining about that before it became political
03:15:25.400 Now, there is a time
03:15:29.400 Even when you're detached in some sense from the political realm
03:15:33.400 That you can't be detached anymore
03:15:35.400 Well, I'm not happy with the fact that this has become politicized
03:15:39.400 You could say that I haven't done a stellar job in ensuring in every possible manner
03:15:45.400 That this has remained neutrally apolitical
03:15:47.400 Probably true, you know
03:15:50.400 But I'm not particularly unhappy with the way things have gone so far
03:15:56.400 And I'm not happy with the radical left
03:15:59.400 And so if they're irritated at me, so much the better as far as I'm concerned
03:16:04.400 So have I conducted myself perfectly?
03:16:07.400 It's like undoubtedly no
03:16:10.400 So I've got more than my fair share of faults
03:16:15.400 And a temper is one of them
03:16:17.400 But I'm muddling through
03:16:22.400 All right, I'm almost a little hesitant to ask a question now
03:16:28.400 But so one thing I was wondering about was a lot of people I think would argue that
03:16:36.400 Kind of the values of Western civilization, free speech, the right of the individual separation between church and state
03:16:45.400 Have developed through not so much in continuous with the Judeo-Christian morality
03:16:53.400 But almost in their overthrow through such things as the Enlightenment, the scientific revolution
03:16:58.400 And how these values would never have come out of just simply the continuous of the Middle Ages and that Judeo-Christian morality
03:17:09.400 But my understanding of your view would be that those values are inherent in the Judeo-Christian morality
03:17:16.400 And I'm just wondering how you think, just what is the value of Judeo-Christian morality in the modern world?
03:17:23.400 Yeah, it's a great question
03:17:33.400 They're not rational values
03:17:35.400 They're deeper than rational values
03:17:37.400 I mean it was a surprise to me
03:17:40.400 Going back into the past, let's say, to see how deep these values were
03:17:44.400 But I would say that not only are they part of the Judeo-Christian story, let's say
03:17:52.400 But that they're grounded in phenomena that are even deeper than that
03:17:57.400 There's been a fair bit of investigation into the emergence of fair play, let's say, among animals
03:18:04.400 Rats, primates, wolves, and so forth
03:18:08.400 There's an ethos that emerges behaviorally and is then perhaps woven into narrative and then codified
03:18:14.400 That seems to be isomorphic across these different levels
03:18:19.400 And I think it's been well articulated in the narrative sense in the Judeo-Christian corpus of stories
03:18:25.400 And that it's out of that that our legal systems and institutions of rights have emerged
03:18:31.400 People make the case that that was fundamentally an Enlightenment issue
03:18:35.400 And it was certainly the case that the rational clarity that came along with the Enlightenment
03:18:41.400 Increased the degree to which that was articulated and transformed into law
03:18:45.400 But I think to attribute it to that is a great mistake
03:18:50.400 I think it's, I think the time span view is way too narrow
03:18:56.400 That's 500 years ago
03:18:58.400 I'm a biologically minded guy
03:19:00.400 It's like 500 years, that's nothing
03:19:03.400 5,000 years, well, that's starting to register
03:19:07.400 50,000 years, it's worthy of note
03:19:10.400 6 million years, now you're getting somewhere
03:19:13.400 There's, the ethic that we're discussing is way deeper than something conjured up in like 1500 by some Northern Italians
03:19:23.400 So, it's an articulation of a substructure that's much deeper than the articulation itself
03:19:30.400 That's what it looks like to me
03:19:31.400 Now I think there's room for intelligent debate about that
03:19:35.400 But I've looked at the Enlightenment thinkers
03:19:38.400 And at the deeper, at people who I regard as deeper
03:19:43.400 And I think the deeper guys, Nietzsche, Dostoevsky, Jung in particular
03:19:47.400 Solzhenitsyn to some degree, they've got it right
03:19:50.400 So, I don't think it's, I don't think that our rights are an Enlightenment project
03:19:55.400 Their instantiation into codified law, that's more part and parcel of the Enlightenment
03:20:02.400 That would be particularly manifest in a place like the United States, you know, so
03:20:07.400 Yeah, if I can just ask kind of a related question
03:20:10.400 You mentioned Nietzsche, and, because from what I understand of your work
03:20:14.400 You seem to draw from him a lot, and again, you said you agree with him
03:20:17.400 Well, you know, he thinks a lot of things
03:20:20.400 Yeah, so I guess, I'm wondering where you think
03:20:24.400 Because I imagine he went wrong in his interpretation of the Christian morality
03:20:30.400 And how he believes, and how he believes that's kind of a pernicious slave-based morality
03:20:37.400 So what exactly do you think, because you agree with a lot of other things
03:20:41.400 Well, he didn't really critique Christian morality
03:20:43.400 He critiqued Christian dogma and structures
03:20:47.400 That's not exactly the same thing
03:20:49.400 So you would agree with him then?
03:20:51.400 Well, like I said, he's a complicated guy
03:20:53.400 But I think the slave morality idea, the idea that the oppressed are somehow virtuous
03:21:00.400 Which I don't think is a central Christian idea, by the way
03:21:04.400 It was something that he criticized as part and parcel of what was constructed
03:21:08.400 And concretized in institutional Christianity
03:21:13.400 And Nietzsche also, and this is a deeper critique, I think
03:21:17.400 Nietzsche really criticized institutional Christianity
03:21:20.400 Particularly the Protestant and Catholic forms, I would say
03:21:23.400 For insufficient attention paid to the imitation of Christ
03:21:27.400 And too much attention paid to the idea that the work of redemption had already been done
03:21:32.400 Which is something that also divides the Orthodox Christian types from the Protestants and the Catholics
03:21:37.400 Because the Orthodox types tend to tilt more towards the moral demand that you imitate Christ in your own life
03:21:44.400 And so Nietzsche's a very, you can't sum him up very easily
03:21:50.400 And I found him extraordinarily useful in training me how to think
03:21:55.400 To say that you agree with him
03:21:57.400 I don't think that you can say with someone like Nietzsche that you agree with him
03:22:01.400 Because, you know, Nietzsche had, this is one thing that Nietzsche said
03:22:05.400 That I really got a kick out of
03:22:07.400 Because it's the most arrogant statement I've ever heard anyone make
03:22:13.400 He said, I can write in a sentence what it takes other people, a book, to relate
03:22:22.400 And then he said, no, what other people can't even relate in a book
03:22:26.400 And that's exactly right
03:22:28.400 Like if you read Beyond Good and Evil, for example, which is mostly aphorisms
03:22:32.400 Because he was a very sick man and he couldn't write for long periods of time
03:22:36.400 So he would think for long periods of time and then write down a little bomb
03:22:40.400 And Beyond Good and Evil is just sequential pieces of dynamite
03:22:45.400 And he wasn't trying to be systematic precisely
03:22:49.400 And so that's why it's not so easy to agree or disagree with Nietzsche
03:22:53.400 But you can sure let the bombs go off in your brain if you read what he has to say
03:22:58.400 And he was an interesting critic of Christianity
03:23:02.400 Because, you know, if you're all warped and bent
03:23:06.400 And someone comes along and tells you how you're warped and bent
03:23:09.400 In a manner that might enable you to straighten up
03:23:11.400 It's not obvious that you're their enemy
03:23:14.400 That they're your enemy
03:23:16.400 And I think that's the right way to read Nietzsche with regards to Christianity
03:23:21.400 So there was plenty of rot
03:23:25.400 And that was part of what was causing, let's say, the death of God
03:23:30.400 Now, it isn't obvious at all that Nietzsche was antithetically opposed to the founding ideas
03:23:39.400 In fact, there's many places where he writes that indicate quite the contrary
03:23:44.400 So...
03:23:46.400 Thank you
03:23:48.400 Okay, so we're gonna go to Alex
03:23:50.400 And then Saeed
03:23:52.400 Is going to distribute the microphone
03:24:02.400 Thank you for being here, I really appreciate it
03:24:05.400 So I was watching a few of your interviews in preparation for this
03:24:08.400 And I heard you speak about religion quite a bit
03:24:11.400 And if you look up what religion means in the Webster Dictionary
03:24:15.400 You get something like a system of faith centered on a supernatural being or beings or something like that
03:24:22.400 But I've heard you use religion to describe things like punk rockers, for example
03:24:26.400 That that's a religious experience
03:24:28.400 So my first question would be, how do you define what is considered religious?
03:24:32.400 And then sort of as a follow-up to that
03:24:35.400 If, say, Sam Harris
03:24:37.400 Religious is what you act out
03:24:39.400 What's that?
03:24:41.400 Religious is what you act out
03:24:43.400 Anything you act out
03:24:46.400 Everything you act out is predicated on your implicit axioms
03:24:51.400 And the system of implicit axioms that you hold as primary is your religious belief system
03:24:56.400 It doesn't matter whether you're an atheist or not
03:24:59.400 That's just surface noise
03:25:03.400 So it has nothing to do with divinity or supernatural beings?
03:25:07.400 No, I didn't say that
03:25:08.400 Or it doesn't necessarily have to do with those?
03:25:11.400 No, it probably necessarily has to do with it too
03:25:15.400 But it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with your voluntarily articulated statements
03:25:20.400 About whether or not you believe in something like a transcendent deity
03:25:25.400 So, I mean, what you act out is much more what you are than what you say about yourself
03:25:31.400 And what the hell do you know about what you believe anyways?
03:25:34.400 You're complicated, man
03:25:36.400 It's a fair question
03:25:37.400 Well, seriously, people are complicated
03:25:39.400 You know, like, we're not transparent to ourselves at all
03:25:43.400 That's why we have to go to university and study psychology
03:25:46.400 It's like, you know, we're not exactly black boxes
03:25:50.400 But we are the most complicated things there are
03:25:53.400 Right? And we can't even program our VCR clocks
03:25:57.400 So it's like, how the hell can we propose to understand ourselves?
03:26:01.400 You know, I'm existentially oriented
03:26:04.400 Which is to say that I think that what you hold to be true is best determined as a consequence of an analysis of your actions
03:26:13.400 Rather than as a consequence of an analysis of what you purport to believe
03:26:19.400 Now, in order to act, you can't act without a hierarchy of value
03:26:24.400 Which I tortured the other poor questioner about
03:26:27.400 You can't act without a hierarchy of values
03:26:29.400 Because you can't act unless you think one thing is better than another
03:26:33.400 Because why would you act otherwise?
03:26:35.400 So that means that you're embedded within a hierarchy of values
03:26:39.400 Whether you know it or not
03:26:40.400 Or maybe multiple fragmentary and competing hierarchies of value
03:26:43.400 Which is all the worse for you, by the way
03:26:45.400 Because it just makes you very confused
03:26:47.400 That hierarchy of values has an axiomatic
03:26:51.400 It's based on axioms
03:26:53.400 And the probability that you understand them is very low
03:26:56.400 Because generally people don't understand their axioms
03:26:59.400 But that axiomatic system is essentially your religious system
03:27:03.400 And there's no way out of that as far as I can tell
03:27:06.400 And you can say, well, it isn't predicated on conscious belief in a transcendent deity
03:27:12.400 It's like, okay, have it your way
03:27:15.400 But, you know, most people in this room act out a Judeo-Christian ethic
03:27:22.400 And not only do they act it out
03:27:24.400 If they're treated in a manner that's not commensurate with that ethic
03:27:28.400 They get very, very, very annoyed
03:27:31.400 So, for example, if I fail to treat you as if you're an embodiment of a divine fragment, let's say
03:27:39.400 That's characterized by the ability to make free choice
03:27:44.400 And to determine your own destiny in some sense
03:27:47.400 Or if I fail to treat you as if you're a valued member
03:27:51.400 Valued contributing member of the polity as a sovereign individual
03:27:56.400 Then you'll find that very offensive and become angry
03:27:59.400 It's like, okay, then, that's what you believe
03:28:03.400 Well, if I ask you if you believe any of that, well, that's a whole different story
03:28:07.400 You might give me some radical leftist nonsense
03:28:10.400 But that doesn't take away from what you've...
03:28:13.400 I try not to
03:28:14.400 That doesn't take away from the fundamentals of your action
03:28:18.400 As one final thing
03:28:20.400 So when you and, say, Sam Harris argue about religion
03:28:23.400 You're arguing about fundamentally different things, it sounds like
03:28:27.400 His conception of what is religious is very different from yours
03:28:30.400 Yeah, well, he tends to think of religious thought the same way that a smart 13-year-old atheist
03:28:38.400 Thinks about a fundamentalist Christian
03:28:40.400 It's like, yeah, okay
03:28:42.400 That just... you're just not getting to the heart of the matter
03:28:46.400 You know, and I just finished reading all of Sam's books in the last couple of weeks
03:28:51.400 And as far as I'm concerned, he doesn't ever get to the bottom of the issue
03:28:56.400 He doesn't address the fundamental thinkers
03:28:58.400 There are some profound thinkers
03:29:00.400 Dostoevsky's one
03:29:02.400 Tolstoy, Nietzsche, Jung
03:29:05.400 It's like, they're completely absent from... and the same with Dawkins
03:29:08.400 It's completely absent
03:29:09.400 All that conceptualization is completely absent from their corpus of works
03:29:12.400 They don't even have an understanding for the psychological utility of religion
03:29:16.400 And it's a big problem
03:29:18.400 You know, you don't get to be an atheist when the people you attack are like naive fundamentalists
03:29:25.400 And I have some sympathy for the naive fundamentalists
03:29:29.400 It's like, what they're basically saying is something like this
03:29:32.400 Look, we have an ethos that's valuable
03:29:35.400 You scientist types are casually dismantling it
03:29:40.400 What the hell are we supposed to do?
03:29:42.400 Well, the fundamentalists don't know what to do about that
03:29:44.400 So they say, well, creationism is science
03:29:46.400 It's like, well, no, it's not
03:29:48.400 But that doesn't mean that they don't have a point
03:29:51.400 Their point is there's something valuable here
03:29:54.400 It's like, don't break it casually
03:29:56.400 What are you going to replace it with?
03:29:58.400 The new atheists wish that everybody becomes rational
03:30:02.400 It's like, yeah, sure, that's going to happen
03:30:05.400 Thank you
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03:31:56.400 Thank you Dr. Peterson
03:31:58.400 I'm a student of religious studies
03:32:00.400 And currently I'm writing an owner's thesis on religious imagery
03:32:04.400 In an Indo-Persian literary genre
03:32:06.400 There's a poet philosopher who said the following
03:32:09.400 Which I think you'll like
03:32:10.400 Who by the way was a huge fan of Goita
03:32:12.400 He said that in addressing God
03:32:14.400 He says, he calls him the hidden reality
03:32:17.400 And he asks the hidden reality to reveal itself
03:32:19.400 But using the robe of metaphor
03:32:22.400 Because he thinks that metaphor is the only way
03:32:24.400 Stories are the only way
03:32:26.400 That human beings can comprehend
03:32:28.400 You know, the hidden reality
03:32:30.400 I know you've written a lot
03:32:31.400 You speak a lot about religious stories
03:32:34.400 I just wanted to ask you
03:32:36.400 Although it may be a very broad question
03:32:38.400 What is the place of the religious in stories?
03:32:42.400 And
03:32:43.400 Religious is something like the grammatical structure of stories
03:32:47.400 Like if you go down and you look at what makes a story a story
03:32:51.400 That's religious
03:32:53.400 Yeah, it's not a story otherwise
03:32:55.400 Like a story is a particular sort of thing
03:32:58.400 Like in its simplest sense
03:32:59.400 A story is an account of how to get from point A to point B
03:33:03.400 It's like a map
03:33:05.400 But there's a value structure inherent in that obviously
03:33:09.400 Because otherwise you wouldn't go from point A to point B
03:33:12.400 So just to make the map means to adopt a value structure
03:33:15.400 But the story is actually more complicated than that
03:33:17.400 Because as you move from point A to point B
03:33:20.400 Processes of radical transformation are often necessary
03:33:24.400 And the deep stories about the processes of radical transformation that occur as you move from point A to B
03:33:31.400 Are basically
03:33:32.400 They're indistinguishable from religious stories
03:33:36.400 Now the reason they
03:33:38.400 I think the reason they tend to become religious let's say
03:33:41.400 Is because it has something to do with the gap between the finite and comprehensible
03:33:46.400 And the infinite and the incomprehensible
03:33:48.400 It's like we live in the finite and comprehensible
03:33:50.400 But we're surrounded by the infinite and incomprehensible
03:33:53.400 And there has to be a border between those
03:33:55.400 Like a mediating border
03:33:57.400 That's poetry and art
03:33:59.400 That's narrative
03:34:00.400 That's religion
03:34:01.400 And it's that strange metaphorical reality let's say
03:34:06.400 That's not factual
03:34:07.400 And that's not comprehensible
03:34:09.400 But that's not infinitely incomprehensible either
03:34:12.400 It's a bridge between the two
03:34:14.400 So, and as you move closer to the infinite and incomprehensible
03:34:19.400 Across that bridge
03:34:20.400 You get farther and farther away from what you understand
03:34:24.400 Right?
03:34:26.400 But how could it be otherwise?
03:34:27.400 Given that you're finite
03:34:28.400 You are a finite being
03:34:30.400 Surrounded by infinite
03:34:32.400 What's infinite and incomprehensible
03:34:34.400 And that was his critique of the strict rationalist
03:34:37.400 That they can't
03:34:38.400 That it's hard for them to make this
03:34:40.400 To make this
03:34:41.400 To
03:34:42.400 That's where poets come in
03:34:43.400 And that's where artists come in
03:34:44.400 Yes, exactly
03:34:45.400 Exactly
03:34:46.400 Well this is
03:34:47.400 I learned a lot of this from Jung
03:34:48.400 Because Jung's idea was that
03:34:49.400 Rationality is embedded in a dream
03:34:52.400 Like there's the infinite unknowable
03:34:54.400 And then there's the dream
03:34:55.400 And then inside the dream is the rational domain
03:34:58.400 And I believe that to be the case
03:35:00.400 Why else would we dream?
03:35:02.400 We have to dream
03:35:04.400 We have to dream
03:35:05.400 If we don't dream
03:35:06.400 We go insane
03:35:07.400 It doesn't take very long
03:35:09.400 And so there's an element of poetic conceptualization that grounds us
03:35:17.400 And it has to be taken seriously
03:35:19.400 You know the rational critics of dreams think about them as random neural activity
03:35:25.400 It's like there's nothing
03:35:27.400 When you look at a TV screen that's not on a channel
03:35:32.400 That's random
03:35:34.400 When you dream something complex and sophisticated
03:35:37.400 That's not random
03:35:41.400 So
03:35:42.400 Yeah
03:35:43.400 So the metaphor surrounds us let's say
03:35:45.400 And we can critique it rationally
03:35:47.400 And we can undermine it
03:35:48.400 But there's real danger in that
03:35:50.400 So
03:35:51.400 Thanks
03:35:53.400 Please keep your question short
03:35:55.400 So to get to the point in terms of the salary
03:36:00.400 I'm going to take one question from here
03:36:01.400 Then take one on the other end
03:36:04.400 I think we have a right side of the room by us now
03:36:08.400 I'm trying to figure it out
03:36:09.400 Take one
03:36:11.400 Hi Professor
03:36:13.400 Yeah, thanks for your talk
03:36:14.400 I'd like to find out from you
03:36:16.400 What's your view of institutional racism?
03:36:19.400 Is it a thing?
03:36:21.400 Or is it some other left
03:36:23.400 Radical leftist agenda?
03:36:25.400 Say
03:36:26.400 I didn't quite catch the first part of that
03:36:28.400 What's your view of institutional racism?
03:36:30.400 Or systematic racism as some people may call it
03:36:34.400 Institutional system
03:36:35.400 Yeah, yeah, yeah
03:36:36.400 Yes, yes
03:36:37.400 Yeah
03:36:38.400 Is it a thing?
03:36:39.400 Is it an actual thing?
03:36:40.400 That's a great question
03:36:41.400 Or is it some other agenda that you might attribute to radical leftists?
03:36:46.400 It's a multivariate problem
03:36:49.400 Right?
03:36:50.400 Like no society is without its biases and prejudices
03:36:54.400 And some of them get built into the systems themselves
03:36:58.400 And so when you look at unequal outcomes
03:37:01.400 And you're trying to discover why those unequal outcomes exist
03:37:04.400 If you have any sense then you do a multivariate analysis
03:37:07.400 And you put in prejudice and discrimination as one of the factors
03:37:12.400 One of the factors
03:37:14.400 One of many, many factors
03:37:17.400 And the problem with the radical leftists is that they take
03:37:20.400 The fact that societal structures are tyrannical to some degree and arbitrary
03:37:25.400 Which of course they are because they're imperfect
03:37:27.400 And then they obliterate the rest of the complexity with that claim
03:37:32.400 So there's lots of reasons for inequality
03:37:37.400 Systemic bias is one of them
03:37:40.400 It's an open question to what degree systemic bias plays in
03:37:45.400 In the inequality problem, let's say
03:37:48.400 But it's something that we could hypothetically address
03:37:51.400 With a certain degree of detachment and intelligence
03:37:54.400 So, no system is perfect
03:37:58.400 Not, and certainly not ours
03:38:04.400 Reasonable?
03:38:05.400 Reasonable answer?
03:38:07.400 Okay
03:38:08.400 That's wise
03:38:12.400 Alright, so
03:38:14.400 I think it's safe to say you're a fervent critic of postmodernism
03:38:18.400 And there are times where I don't think you quite give it a fair shake
03:38:21.400 And I'm no fan of, you know, a good amount of the literature or the theory
03:38:26.400 But if you could point to one or two of the French theorists
03:38:30.400 And some of their pieces
03:38:32.400 Whether it's their literature or their theory
03:38:35.400 And you could point to that's culpable for this sort of cultural rot
03:38:38.400 That you charge postmodernism with causing
03:38:40.400 Who would it be?
03:38:41.400 What would it be?
03:38:42.400 I would say Foucault and Derrida
03:38:46.400 Lacan, I would also blame him if I could understand him
03:38:49.400 But I don't actually think he is understandable
03:38:51.400 So I can't blame him
03:38:53.400 So, and I've done my best to read Lacan
03:38:56.400 And I think the reason I can't read it is because it doesn't make any sense
03:39:00.400 So, because I've read some very difficult things and I could understand them
03:39:03.400 So, Foucault, I think, is a tin-pot genius
03:39:08.400 I read Madness and Civilization, for example, it just seems to me to be self-evident
03:39:12.400 Psychiatric diagnostic categories are in part social constructions
03:39:16.400 It's like, great, we've known that since like 1960
03:39:19.400 You know, it's just not that big a revelation
03:39:22.400 And Derrida, well, he's a trickster, you know, and his critique of the West as phalogocentric is dead on point
03:39:29.400 Male-dominated, that's his theory, and logocentric, well, he thinks that's a problem
03:39:35.400 Well, I don't think it's a problem
03:39:38.400 So, and I think as well, it isn't even that
03:39:41.400 And I understand the postmodernist viewpoint
03:39:43.400 Like, look, it is the case that a finite set of entities is subject to an infinite number of interpretations
03:39:50.400 Okay, that's postmodernism in a nutshell
03:39:52.400 The AI guys figured that out in like, from 1960 to 1992
03:39:57.400 It took them that long to wade through that fundamental technical problem
03:40:01.400 A real problem
03:40:02.400 The problem of perception, for example
03:40:04.400 It's been very hard to solve the AI problem of perception
03:40:06.400 Because there are a lot of ways to look at the world
03:40:08.400 Like, the objects aren't just there in any simple sense
03:40:11.400 So, okay, there's an infinite number of interpretations
03:40:14.400 No problem
03:40:16.400 There's not an infinite number of viable interpretations
03:40:19.400 Okay, that's a big problem
03:40:21.400 Okay, and a little bit of thinking through that would have gone a long ways for the postmodernists
03:40:25.400 So that's number one
03:40:27.400 And then
03:40:28.400 What's the other one?
03:40:30.400 Oh, yes
03:40:35.400 Then the other problem is, okay
03:40:37.400 There's an infinite number of interpretations
03:40:39.400 We won't make anyone canonical
03:40:41.400 Alright, well then how the hell are you going to act?
03:40:44.400 Because you have to make a value system canonical if you're going to act
03:40:48.400 Oh, well we didn't solve that problem
03:40:50.400 How about we just slip Marxism in underneath the carpet and not notice the problem?
03:40:54.400 Then that gives us something to do
03:40:56.400 It's like, people come out and criticize me and say
03:40:59.400 Dr. Peterson doesn't understand that postmodernism and Marxism are incommensurate
03:41:03.400 It's like, yeah, actually I do understand that
03:41:06.400 But the postmodern neo-Marxists don't seem to understand that
03:41:10.400 So how can you be a postmodernist and a Marxist at the same time?
03:41:15.400 Well, the answer to that is actually to be found in the historical data
03:41:18.400 The postmodernist types like Foucault and Derrida were Marxists
03:41:22.400 Before Marxists, before they became postmodernists
03:41:25.400 And the postmodern overlay on the Marxism was as far as I can tell
03:41:29.400 Mostly a cover story for going about the same old murderous idiocy under a new guise
03:41:35.400 Do you think it's possible that there are, I'm sorry, that there are lenses, like postmodern lenses that we can view culture from under that can at times be more powerful and useful than other lenses
03:41:53.400 Like for example, Baudrillard, the idea of the simulacrum and the successive phases of the image
03:41:58.400 Joan Didion
03:42:00.400 Baudrillard could at least think
03:42:02.400 And I mean you can't throw all the postmodernists into the same jug
03:42:06.400 You know, but I would say it's still Derrida and Foucault have had the most pernicious effects
03:42:11.400 Okay, so you would charge them with the worst of the worst
03:42:15.400 Well, the
03:42:17.400 Opening up this can of worms that we hadn't really rebuilt
03:42:19.400 Well, the problem is they didn't deal with it seriously
03:42:21.400 It's like you can't just say no metanarrative
03:42:24.400 It's like, okay, how are we going to unite ourselves then?
03:42:27.400 We're going to use multiculturalism
03:42:30.400 Well, that's really worked to produce a peaceful world, hasn't it?
03:42:33.400 So, you need a uniting narrative
03:42:36.400 We have, if we weren't, didn't have a uniting narrative, we wouldn't all be sitting peacefully in this room
03:42:40.400 It's the uniting narrative that governs our behavior in this room
03:42:44.400 And look, here we are, all peaceful
03:42:46.400 It's like they're not dealing with the fundamental issues
03:42:48.400 And to slip Marxism back in as a backdoor route to having something to do with your life
03:42:53.400 Is intellectually and morally reprehensible
03:42:58.400 Okay, thank you
03:43:00.400 How are you, sir? My name is Steve
03:43:11.400 I just wanted to ask you about this experience that I had after watching one of your lectures
03:43:15.400 That really profoundly impacted me
03:43:17.400 And I was wondering if you could kind of help me out with understanding this
03:43:20.400 After watching your lecture on Jung and just talking about his life
03:43:24.400 You started talking about the Lion King
03:43:27.400 And kind of connecting what the intro scene was in the Lion King and the idea of archetypes
03:43:33.400 And when I started to understand what you were saying
03:43:35.400 I had this unbelievable feeling, like in my stomach, in my whole body
03:43:39.400 It's just this smack, like this very intense feeling
03:43:44.400 It's a warning never to read Jung
03:43:46.400 Yeah, well I have, I started with Ion
03:43:49.400 Oh good!
03:43:50.400 No!
03:43:51.400 It was just this powerful feeling and I got so emotional
03:43:55.400 Thinking up how to articulate this question to you a few minutes ago
03:44:00.400 I was just getting so emotional
03:44:02.400 It just seems like, it scared the hell out of me, that feeling
03:44:07.400 But it was also a really meaningful, so valuable, amazing feeling
03:44:11.400 And I thought, you know, it's kind of like what, maybe what God is, you know
03:44:16.400 Yeah, it was just so, and I usually get that feeling too of, after listening to a band like the Cro-Mags
03:44:23.400 Or Black Flag, you know, some hardcore band
03:44:26.400 That music is so important to me like that
03:44:29.400 It's levels of reality stacking on top of each other
03:44:34.400 And just the question that just made me so emotional too
03:44:38.400 Is like, what can my life be, you know, and that was something that
03:44:41.400 I just found myself asking myself, you know, just what
03:44:44.400 And I just, I wonder if you could, you know, give me some extra stuff on that
03:44:48.400 What that really was, you know
03:44:50.400 Yeah, well, you've got to be very careful when you're doing something like reading Jung
03:44:56.400 Because he'll reorganize your cognitive structures
03:45:01.400 And that's, there's deaths and rebirths that go along with that
03:45:05.400 You know, there's, what you're trying to do in part is to, in a sense, is you're trying to bring what you do
03:45:13.400 And how you imagine yourself and how you articulate yourself into alignment
03:45:19.400 So those three things are the same
03:45:21.400 It's very hard because there's more to you in your action than there is in your articulation
03:45:26.400 And there's more to you in your action than there is in your imagination
03:45:29.400 And so, partly what you're experiencing is an expanded sense of self and possibility
03:45:38.400 And you might think, well, that's a wonderful thing
03:45:40.400 But it's also a very daunting thing
03:45:43.400 And it can be a very dangerous thing
03:45:46.400 When I was dealing with all of this material, when I was writing my first book
03:45:51.400 I had to abandon a lot of the things that I was doing that were bad habits
03:45:56.400 Because it was so stressful to move through these systems of ideas
03:46:02.400 That I couldn't afford any additional mental energy being wasted on things I was doing that wasn't, that weren't together
03:46:09.400 So...
03:46:12.400 Hi, Dr. Peterson
03:46:14.400 So on February 13th, you got into a prolonged debate on Twitter with a quote bot
03:46:20.400 A Slava Zizek quote bot
03:46:22.400 And then again on March 9th
03:46:24.400 With a quote bot?
03:46:25.400 Yeah, it was a quote bot
03:46:26.400 Well, that wasn't very bright, was it?
03:46:28.400 No
03:46:29.400 And then again on March 9th, actually
03:46:32.400 With Noam Chomsky
03:46:34.400 Noam Chomsky quote bot
03:46:35.400 And so I want to ask you as like the leading
03:46:38.400 It's because I'm old and don't understand technology
03:46:40.400 Yeah
03:46:41.400 Yeah
03:46:42.400 Yeah
03:46:43.400 So, yeah
03:46:44.400 So, how important do you think it is to like debate these intellectuals
03:46:49.400 And do you think that you won them?
03:46:52.400 Oh God, I always hesitate to claim victory
03:46:58.400 Like to escape without abject defeat is a pretty good ambition
03:47:05.400 So, and plus I think it's rather improbable that I would win a debate with a quote bot
03:47:12.400 Some people thought it was pretty close
03:47:14.400 Yeah
03:47:15.400 Twitter is a weird platform, you know
03:47:21.400 It's complicated, yeah
03:47:22.400 It is a complicated platform
03:47:24.400 And I've modified my approach to Twitter in the last month and a half I would say
03:47:31.400 I've been trying to selectively retweet information
03:47:37.400 I polled a bunch of people and asked them if they knew of credible Twitter sources that were producing valid good news
03:47:45.400 And I found a bunch of sites that were doing that and then winnowed them down
03:47:50.400 I really like humanprogress.org
03:47:52.400 Which has done a lovely job of detailing
03:47:55.400 Well, they had a they had a great tweet the other day
03:47:58.400 I really loved it was a mock-up of a New York Times cover
03:48:01.400 And it said 127,000 people lifted out of abject poverty today
03:48:06.400 You know in like large type
03:48:08.400 And then the tweet was we could have run this every single day for the last 20 years
03:48:13.400 It's like, you know, because some of you know
03:48:17.400 But perhaps some of you don't
03:48:18.400 That between the year 2000 and 2012
03:48:21.400 And this hasn't stopped yet
03:48:23.400 The number of people in abject poverty in the world fell by half
03:48:27.400 Right, it was the most rapid period of economic development ever in the history of the world
03:48:32.400 And there's lots of things like that happening
03:48:34.400 There's several hundred thousand people a day being hooked to the power grid
03:48:38.400 Which is a big deal
03:48:39.400 For those of you those of you have power might also appreciate that
03:48:43.400 Infant mortality has been plummeting
03:48:46.400 You know we're going to plateau in terms of population at about 9 billion
03:48:50.400 And it's going to level off and decline pretty rapidly after that
03:48:53.400 People are getting access to fresh water in record numbers
03:48:57.400 Like there's so many good things happening that it's not even funny
03:49:01.400 And that we that are real cause for celebration
03:49:04.400 And so I've been trying to select
03:49:06.400 Trying to tilt what I've been distributing more in that direction
03:49:09.400 And I've also put a buffer between me and my use of Twitter
03:49:12.400 So because it it does
03:49:16.400 It does reward an impulsivity that isn't always
03:49:21.400 Let's say my impulsivity that isn't always in anyone's best interest
03:49:27.400 I made an agreement with my son
03:49:29.400 To because he's been watching
03:49:31.400 I have lots of people watching what I'm doing
03:49:33.400 And trying to keep me under some degree of control let's say
03:49:37.400 And his comment was that if I was going to
03:49:41.400 If it was serious enough to engage in Twitter combat
03:49:44.400 About it was serious enough to write a blog post about
03:49:47.400 And so I've kind of made this rule
03:49:49.400 Which is I'm not going to comment on anything on Twitter
03:49:53.400 In that sort of manner
03:49:55.400 Unless I feel that writing about it at some length is justifiable
03:49:59.400 And so I started doing that this week
03:50:01.400 I wrote three blog posts
03:50:03.400 And that seems to have gone pretty well
03:50:05.400 So I hope that answered your question
03:50:09.400 Thank you
03:50:11.400 Kind of go on a different topic
03:50:23.400 I have a personality psychology question
03:50:25.400 Okay
03:50:26.400 So when I did the understand myself quiz
03:50:28.400 I was very surprised to find out that I was on the bottom two percentile
03:50:31.400 For conscientiousness
03:50:32.400 Which I thought was
03:50:33.400 Are you high in openness?
03:50:34.400 Yes
03:50:35.400 You're an entrepreneurial type
03:50:36.400 You're going to need to partner with someone who's disciplined
03:50:40.400 Well that's exactly
03:50:43.400 See there seems to be a real tension between openness and especially orderliness
03:50:49.400 You know because open people
03:50:51.400 Well they think laterally and they blow boxes apart
03:50:54.400 And they tend to make a mess when you're transforming things
03:50:56.400 And they're all over the place
03:50:57.400 And they have to be because otherwise they wouldn't be open
03:51:00.400 But it's hard to do that and also be orderly and conscientious
03:51:04.400 And so and corporations suffer from this tension all the time right
03:51:08.400 Because they're started by open people
03:51:10.400 But when they get going and get algorithmized
03:51:14.400 They're run by conscientious people
03:51:16.400 But then the conscientious people can only go down one track
03:51:18.400 And if the environment transforms the whole company disappears
03:51:21.400 So I would say
03:51:22.400 You take a look at the conscientiousness score
03:51:25.400 You see if you can figure out how to discipline yourself a bit more
03:51:28.400 And see if you can figure out how to schedule your time
03:51:31.400 Not like a prison but like a structured set of opportunities
03:51:35.400 And then you understand that in order to be successful in life
03:51:39.400 Likely in the medium to long run
03:51:41.400 You're going to have to find someone
03:51:43.400 Could be someone close to you
03:51:45.400 Could be business partners or whatever
03:51:47.400 That fill in that missing conscientiousness gap
03:51:51.400 Yeah I guess the part B was my boyfriend
03:51:53.400 We've been together for a very long time
03:51:55.400 And we're not that old
03:51:57.400 Is also very high in neuroticism
03:51:59.400 And I feel that's where like our conflict comes
03:52:01.400 And as far as long term
03:52:03.400 What are some things that you know
03:52:05.400 Lowly conscientious and highly neurotic
03:52:07.400 We'll look into that
03:52:13.400 Yeah well
03:52:15.400 I mean the simple
03:52:17.400 I can only
03:52:19.400 High levels of neuroticism
03:52:21.400 Are problematic in a relationship
03:52:23.400 It's probably why 75% of divorces are initiated by women
03:52:29.400 Because women are higher in neuroticism than men
03:52:31.400 And I think the reason for that
03:52:33.400 Is that they have to be more sensitive to infant distress
03:52:35.400 And so that makes them more sensitive to distress in general
03:52:39.400 Now I don't know that for sure
03:52:41.400 Supposition
03:52:43.400 But high levels of neuroticism do tend to make a relationship
03:52:45.400 Volatile
03:52:47.400 And to put a fair bit of negative emotion into it
03:52:49.400 Now the question is
03:52:51.400 What the source of the high level of neuroticism is
03:52:55.400 It might be purely temperamental
03:52:57.400 But it also might be indicative of an underlying anxiety disorder
03:52:59.400 Or depression
03:53:01.400 Or a physiological problem
03:53:03.400 Because they can manifest themselves in high levels of negative emotion
03:53:05.400 And so there's always the possibility of
03:53:07.400 Doing something about that
03:53:09.400 What I usually tell my clients who are high in neuroticism is two simple things
03:53:13.400 Number one
03:53:15.400 Get up at the same time in the morning
03:53:17.400 Okay, because that helps stabilize your circadian rhythms
03:53:20.400 Number two
03:53:21.400 Eat a large meal before you stress yourself in the morning
03:53:25.400 And mostly protein and fat based
03:53:27.400 Because if you're high in neuroticism and you stress yourself before you eat
03:53:31.400 You
03:53:33.400 You
03:53:34.400 Disregulate your
03:53:35.400 Your emotional reaction systems essentially
03:53:37.400 And you can't re-regulate them until you sleep again
03:53:39.400 So
03:53:41.400 Other than that
03:53:42.400 Goodwill and understanding is about what you've got
03:53:45.400 Yeah
03:53:47.400 How you doing tonight Dr. Peterson?
03:53:51.400 Not too bad, pretty good questions so far
03:53:53.400 Good
03:53:54.400 Little on the brutal side I might say
03:53:56.400 But that's good
03:53:57.400 I'm incredibly nervous to talk in front of you
03:53:59.400 Because you've got to be one of the most formidable people that I've ever heard of
03:54:03.400 Or ever listened to or ever seen
03:54:05.400 My question is
03:54:07.400 Again, you're one of the best communicators that I've ever listened to
03:54:10.400 If I could be
03:54:12.400 Half as good
03:54:14.400 At you
03:54:15.400 Or at communicating as you are
03:54:17.400 I would be set
03:54:18.400 How can I teach myself to do that?
03:54:20.400 Practice
03:54:22.400 You know, really
03:54:23.400 Like
03:54:24.400 Well, there's a couple of things
03:54:26.400 It helps to read
03:54:28.400 A lot
03:54:30.400 It really helps to write
03:54:32.400 So
03:54:33.400 If you want to make yourself
03:54:35.400 Articulate
03:54:36.400 Which is a very good idea
03:54:38.400 Then
03:54:39.400 Not only should you read
03:54:41.400 But you should write down what you think
03:54:44.400 And if you can do that a little bit every day
03:54:47.400 15 minutes
03:54:48.400 Maybe you could steal 15 minutes and do it every day
03:54:51.400 But if you do that for 10 years
03:54:54.400 You really straighten out your thinking
03:54:56.400 If you're going to speak
03:54:58.400 Effectively
03:55:00.400 You have to know way more than you're talking about
03:55:03.400 You know
03:55:04.400 So if you
03:55:05.400 This is often difficult for beginning lectures at university
03:55:07.400 Because they'll do a lecture on a topic
03:55:09.400 But they only know as much as they're saying in the lecture
03:55:11.400 And they get kind of stuck to their notes because of it
03:55:14.400 But you want to know 10 times as much as you are saying in the lecture
03:55:18.400 And then you can specify a stepping path through it
03:55:22.400 And elaborate with the other things that you know
03:55:24.400 But to do that you have to do a lot of reading
03:55:26.400 But you also have to do a lot of reading
03:55:28.400 Because that's where the synthesizing comes
03:55:32.400 So that's on the input side
03:55:34.400 And then on the output side
03:55:36.400 Well there's some tricks
03:55:38.400 Techniques let's say
03:55:39.400 Like if you're speaking in front of a group
03:55:41.400 You are not delivering a talk to a group
03:55:45.400 That's not what you're doing
03:55:47.400 The talk isn't a packaged thing that you present to a group
03:55:50.400 There isn't a group
03:55:52.400 There's a bunch of individuals
03:55:54.400 And you talk to them
03:55:56.400 So when I talk to a group
03:55:57.400 I always talk to people one at a time
03:55:59.400 And that makes it easier too
03:56:01.400 Because you know how to talk to a person
03:56:03.400 It's like can you talk to a thousand people
03:56:05.400 Well probably not because it's too intimidating
03:56:07.400 But there isn't a thousand people there
03:56:09.400 There's a thousand individuals
03:56:12.400 And so you just look at an individual
03:56:14.400 And you say something
03:56:15.400 And you can tell if they're engaged
03:56:17.400 They look confused
03:56:19.400 Or they look interested
03:56:20.400 Or they look angry
03:56:21.400 Or they look bored
03:56:22.400 Or maybe they're asleep
03:56:23.400 In which case you look at someone else
03:56:25.400 And they give you feedback
03:56:27.400 About how you're doing
03:56:28.400 And so one thing is to have something to say
03:56:32.400 Yeah
03:56:33.400 But the next thing is
03:56:34.400 Pay attention to who you're talking to
03:56:36.400 Because unless you're
03:56:38.400 Very badly socialized
03:56:40.400 And that seems unlikely in your case
03:56:41.400 Because you know
03:56:42.400 You present yourself
03:56:43.400 At least moderately well you know
03:56:45.400 And well I mean I don't know you very well
03:56:48.400 But on first sight
03:56:50.400 You know you're doing fine
03:56:52.400 So the probability that if you pay attention
03:56:54.400 To the individuals that you're talking to
03:56:57.400 That your natural wealth of social skill
03:57:01.400 Will manifest itself is extremely high
03:57:04.400 And so you don't deliver a talk to an audience
03:57:07.400 That's a really bad way of thinking about it
03:57:09.400 You're actually engaged in a conversation with an audience
03:57:11.400 Even if they're not talking
03:57:13.400 They're nodding and shifting position
03:57:16.400 And you know
03:57:17.400 Looking like this
03:57:18.400 Or
03:57:19.400 And you can pull all that in
03:57:21.400 And use it to govern
03:57:23.400 The level at which you're addressing
03:57:26.400 The entire audience
03:57:27.400 So
03:57:28.400 The last thing I would say is
03:57:31.400 Well having the aim to be a good communicator
03:57:33.400 Is a good start
03:57:34.400 And you think well
03:57:35.400 I could buttress that to some degree
03:57:37.400 There isn't anything that you can possibly
03:57:40.400 This is the whole point of a liberal education
03:57:43.400 There isn't anything that you can possibly do
03:57:46.400 That makes you more competent
03:57:48.400 In everything you do
03:57:50.400 Than to learn how to communicate
03:57:52.400 I don't care if you're going to be a carpenter
03:57:54.400 I mean being a carpenter by the way
03:57:55.400 Is very difficult
03:57:56.400 Especially if you're a good carpenter
03:57:57.400 But if you're good at communicating as a carpenter
03:58:00.400 You're like ten times better as a carpenter
03:58:02.400 So
03:58:03.400 The
03:58:04.400 And this is something that
03:58:05.400 The liberal arts colleges
03:58:07.400 I think
03:58:08.400 I don't know if they've forgotten it
03:58:09.400 But they don't do a very good job of marketing
03:58:11.400 It's like
03:58:12.400 What's the use of a bachelor's degree?
03:58:14.400 A bachelor of arts
03:58:15.400 It's like well
03:58:16.400 You can think
03:58:17.400 You can write
03:58:18.400 You can speak
03:58:19.400 You've read something
03:58:21.400 It's like
03:58:22.400 The economic value of that is incalculable
03:58:25.400 The people that I've watched in my life
03:58:27.400 Who've been spectacularly successful
03:58:31.400 Are
03:58:32.400 They have skills
03:58:33.400 Clearly
03:58:34.400 That's a minimum precondition
03:58:37.400 But they're also very, very good at articulating themselves
03:58:41.400 And so whenever they negotiate
03:58:43.400 They're successful
03:58:44.400 Well that's kind of like the definition of success in life
03:58:47.400 Right?
03:58:48.400 You negotiate
03:58:49.400 It doesn't mean you win
03:58:50.400 Because if you're a good negotiator
03:58:51.400 If you're a really good negotiator
03:58:53.400 Everybody walks away from the negotiation thrilled
03:58:56.400 And so then people line up to do things with you
03:59:00.400 So
03:59:01.400 And that's all
03:59:02.400 That's all dependent on your ability to communicate
03:59:04.400 So
03:59:05.400 Practice
03:59:06.400 Thank you very much
03:59:22.400 Thanks
03:59:23.400 Sorry
03:59:24.400 There's a section of the book in here that I just want to talk about here
03:59:29.400 By myself
03:59:30.400 This is a confident young man
03:59:31.400 What's rule 11 of this book here?
03:59:33.400 Don't bother children when you're skateboarding
03:59:36.400 Well
03:59:37.400 The small bone to pick with Lafayette College is that
03:59:39.400 My brother does get stopped skateboarding here
03:59:41.400 But that's not the surmise of my question today
03:59:43.400 Really I have two key questions
03:59:45.400 You said in one lecture that Alexander Solzhenitsyn basically memorized all of his literary work to bring it out
03:59:51.400 And to show the world
03:59:52.400 But I've had professors assert to me
03:59:54.400 And ones that are very studied on Slavic culture and studied on the Gulag
03:59:58.400 Tell me essentially that he was a KGB agent
04:00:00.400 I mean would you agree with that statement?
04:00:02.400 That the only way that he would have been able to get all that stuff out of there
04:00:04.400 Live in there for 20 years and not die or starve to death was from that
04:00:09.400 What do you think?
04:00:10.400 I don't really have anything to say about that
04:00:12.400 I mean anything's possible but probably not that
04:00:15.400 Probably not that
04:00:16.400 No right
04:00:17.400 So KGB agent like I don't know why anyone would tell you that
04:00:20.400 Like what's their evidence for that?
04:00:22.400 It's impossible for him to have documented that?
04:00:25.400 Not to document that
04:00:26.400 So he must have been a KGB agent?
04:00:27.400 To memorize all that and bring it out of prison
04:00:29.400 Yeah you know
04:00:30.400 I mean was he writing in prison?
04:00:32.400 In Gulag
04:00:33.400 He really couldn't
04:00:34.400 He couldn't
04:00:35.400 How would he have done that?
04:00:36.400 Store anything
04:00:37.400 Yeah
04:00:38.400 You'd be amazed at what people can remember when they have to remember
04:00:41.400 Yeah
04:00:42.400 So people remember very large volumes of material when they're
04:00:45.400 When that's what they have
04:00:47.400 Like pre-literate people you know
04:00:49.400 All they did was remember
04:00:51.400 I have a friend who's not literate and what he can
04:00:54.400 I have two friends that aren't really very literate
04:00:56.400 But one of them is really not literate
04:00:58.400 And what he can remember you just can't believe
04:01:00.400 Our modern people don't remember much because we don't have to
04:01:03.400 We write it down and externalize it
04:01:05.400 But our capacity for memory is far greater than we realize
04:01:09.400 The shake from when the Greeks you know
04:01:11.400 Switched from an oral culture to a literary culture was very fascinating
04:01:13.400 But my second question before I go sit back down
04:01:15.400 Was how do you feel about the influence of
04:01:17.400 And I'm you know with reading Terence McKenna and things along these lines
04:01:20.400 The influence of psychedelics within our culture
04:01:22.400 And how that and what that does to the human psyche
04:01:25.400 I know that the guy who
04:01:26.400 God only knows
04:01:27.400 I don't think we own I don't think we understand
04:01:31.400 We don't understand psychedelics one bit
04:01:34.400 So
04:01:36.400 And I don't think we understand the force
04:01:39.400 The the what would you play the role that they played in our religious and cognitive evolution
04:01:44.400 So
04:01:46.400 We don't understand them
04:01:48.400 They're an absolute mystery
04:01:50.400 So
04:01:51.400 And
04:01:53.400 Play with them at your peril
04:01:55.400 Carl Jung and the guy who had an acid lived in the same town I believe
04:01:59.400 No one of them knew
04:02:01.400 Yeah, yeah, Swiss a pretty strange place for that to emerge from
04:02:05.400 But
04:02:06.400 Yeah
04:02:07.400 For future reference the chair isn't for random audience members to say
04:02:11.400 In a lot of your talks you speak about the things that the West did correct
04:02:22.400 And I'm curious yourself being a psychologist
04:02:25.400 What your thoughts are on Edward Bernays and the impact that he had on Western society
04:02:30.400 The
04:02:32.400 The guiding of masses or controlling them and being able to take control in that way
04:02:38.400 I don't know enough about him I'm afraid to give you an intelligent answer
04:02:42.400 So
04:02:43.400 Do you have a do you have another question?
04:02:45.400 Because that's rather disappointing I imagine
04:02:48.400 Sure
04:02:49.400 My other question would be that
04:02:51.400 To my understanding that
04:02:53.400 Worker control and people's control is instrumental in the idea of socialism
04:02:59.400 And if these countries that we call socialist and communist are totalitarian states ruled by a single party or a single man
04:03:07.400 Why do we continue referring to them as such?
04:03:12.400 As
04:03:13.400 Referring them to as
04:03:14.400 As socialist
04:03:15.400 As when they don't follow the
04:03:18.400 The main heart of it which is
04:03:19.400 That's a good question
04:03:20.400 Worker control
04:03:21.400 It's a good question
04:03:22.400 I don't I don't really know the answer to that
04:03:24.400 It looks like
04:03:26.400 Who knows right
04:03:27.400 Maybe maybe the
04:03:29.400 Maybe the inevitable end product of a collectivist viewpoint is something like a totalitarian state
04:03:34.400 It seems probable because most human governments have been essentially totalitarian states of one degree of severity or another
04:03:44.400 So the tribal tendency might manifest itself in a rigid hierarchy
04:03:49.400 But it is it is a perverse fact right
04:03:51.400 And you think that it's one of the mysteries about the continual apologetics for the radical left
04:03:56.400 It's like well, didn't China just announce that its president is now president for life?
04:04:01.400 Like that's actually a big problem
04:04:03.400 Well, and despite the fact that they've moved quite a distance in the free market direction
04:04:09.400 Obviously that underlying totalitarian impulse is still alive and well and thriving
04:04:17.400 I mean and what the Chinese are doing with electronic surveillance should make everyone's hair stand on end
04:04:22.400 So
04:04:24.400 Yeah
04:04:25.400 Thank you
04:04:39.400 Yeah
04:04:40.400 Hi, Dr. Peterson
04:04:42.400 Okay
04:04:43.400 It's a
04:04:44.400 Are you out of mic range?
04:04:49.400 It's a pleasure to ask you a question
04:04:53.400 I wrote it down to minimize inarticulability
04:04:57.400 Okay
04:04:59.400 So you put a great emphasis on truth in your work
04:05:03.400 So this is you writing in 12 rules for life
04:05:06.400 And above all don't lie
04:05:08.400 Don't lie about anything ever
04:05:10.400 Lying leads to hell
04:05:12.400 It was the great and the small lies of the Nazi and communist states that produced the deaths of tens of millions of people
04:05:18.400 And you've also talked about how Nietzsche foresaw the nihilism implicit in European culture in the 1800s
04:05:24.400 That would likely lead to the authoritarianism and death tolls mentioned at the end of the previous quote
04:05:30.400 And I find this interesting for the following reason
04:05:32.400 So here's Nietzsche in the will to power
04:05:35.400 Radical nihilism is the conviction of an absolute untenability of existence when it comes to the highest values one recognizes
04:05:43.400 This realization is a consequence of the cultivation of truthfulness
04:05:47.400 So in other words
04:05:49.400 Nietzsche saw that valuing truth to its fullest undercuts valuation itself
04:05:53.400 Yeah, he meant that specifically within the Christian context by the way
04:05:57.400 Okay
04:05:59.400 One of the things that Nietzsche in his role as Christian critic pointed out was that the death of God
04:06:07.400 Was a consequence in his formulation of the Christian insistence on truth
04:06:11.400 So his his idea was essentially that as Christianity elevated the truth to the position of highest moral virtue
04:06:21.400 And then that truth seeking spirit develop scientific and rational viewpoint
04:06:29.400 That the logical consequence of that was the turning of the spirit of truth on the metaphysical presumptions of Christianity itself
04:06:37.400 Right
04:06:38.400 So that's the context for that
04:06:39.400 Right
04:06:40.400 So what I wanted to ask you is that you appear to care deeply about meaning and the philosophical problem of nihilism
04:06:47.400 So I was just wondering if you could elaborate on this tension between nihilism and valuing truth in light of what you're saying
04:06:54.400 And whether there's a way in which you see your ideas as elaborated in your latest book
04:07:01.400 As a solution to the problem of nihilism or how they fit into the broader scheme
04:07:06.400 Yeah, it's a great question
04:07:08.400 I think really that Jung's work is the answer to that question
04:07:14.400 Because Jung was profoundly influenced by Freud, obviously
04:07:19.400 And if you read the Freudian biographers, let's say
04:07:24.400 It's easy to conceptualize Jung as an acolyte of Freud
04:07:30.400 But it's not really accurate, I wouldn't say
04:07:33.400 Or it's insufficiently accurate
04:07:35.400 Because Freud had a great influence on Jung
04:07:37.400 But Jung was also exceptionally influenced by Nietzsche
04:07:41.400 And Jung, I think
04:07:43.400 You can also view Piaget in this manner, by the way
04:07:45.400 Although not directly as a consequence of the influence of Nietzsche
04:07:48.400 It would be more indirect
04:07:49.400 But Jung really regarded what he was doing as an answer to Nietzsche's question
04:07:56.400 And the question is something like
04:07:59.400 Well, the inquiring Western rational mind has murdered the metaphysical presuppositions of Western society
04:08:10.400 Now what?
04:08:12.400 Now Nietzsche's idea was
04:08:14.400 Well, we would have to invent our own values
04:08:16.400 We would have to become a new type of being
04:08:19.400 But Jung's response to that, especially after World War II
04:08:23.400 Was
04:08:24.400 And after encountering Freud
04:08:26.400 Was something like
04:08:27.400 Well, what makes you think we can invent our own values?
04:08:30.400 So Jung's idea was to rediscover the values of the past
04:08:36.400 To go within
04:08:37.400 That was his hero's journey
04:08:38.400 To go within
04:08:39.400 In the landscape of the imagination
04:08:41.400 And to rekindle the archetypes
04:08:43.400 That isn't necessarily something that has to be done as an internal voyage
04:08:47.400 But
04:08:49.400 That made it
04:08:50.400 That made the process something that was more akin to an archetypal transformation
04:08:54.400 So if it's the father that's dead
04:08:56.400 Then you go into the belly of the beast to revitalize the father
04:09:00.400 That's the pathway forward
04:09:02.400 And that's been the pathway forward for human beings for
04:09:05.400 For as long back as we know
04:09:08.400 For tens of thousands of years
04:09:11.400 Then there's
04:09:12.400 We sort of cycle
04:09:14.400 Yeah, well
04:09:15.400 Mircea
04:09:16.400 I think I'm saying that right
04:09:17.400 Some Romanian wrote me the other day
04:09:18.400 And tried to teach me how to say it
04:09:20.400 Mircea
04:09:21.400 I think that's right
04:09:22.400 Eliade
04:09:23.400 Talked about the
04:09:25.400 The death of God as a recurring phenomenon
04:09:27.400 I mean that's what he
04:09:29.400 That's what he
04:09:31.400 Realized
04:09:32.400 When he did his large-scale surveys of religious belief systems
04:09:35.400 Is that God dies
04:09:37.400 Very frequently
04:09:38.400 And then
04:09:39.400 That's part of a
04:09:40.400 That's part of what you might describe as a developmental process
04:09:43.400 It's very much akin
04:09:44.400 To what happens to you when your dreams die
04:09:46.400 You know
04:09:47.400 When you put forward a
04:09:48.400 Hypothesis about a mode of being that you would like to embody
04:09:52.400 You have a dream
04:09:53.400 A vision
04:09:54.400 An ambition
04:09:55.400 Maybe a love affair
04:09:56.400 Something like that
04:09:57.400 And it collapses on you
04:09:58.400 Well there's a period of death
04:10:00.400 That follows that
04:10:01.400 You could call it psychological death
04:10:03.400 But then there's a reconstruction of the value system and a rebirth
04:10:07.400 And that's
04:10:08.400 That's the eternal human story
04:10:10.400 It really is
04:10:11.400 Now
04:10:12.400 Jung's contribution to Nietzsche's body of thought
04:10:15.400 And this is where I think also Dostoevsky surpassed Nietzsche
04:10:19.400 Was that
04:10:20.400 Jung realized that
04:10:21.400 We didn't invent our own values
04:10:23.400 We rediscovered those values that we always harbored within us
04:10:27.400 Now that doesn't mean that
04:10:29.400 That
04:10:30.400 They still have to be given new form though
04:10:32.400 You see this in an old story
04:10:34.400 The Egyptian
04:10:35.400 There's an old story of Horus and Osiris
04:10:37.400 And Horus goes to rescue his father Osiris
04:10:40.400 Who's basically living like a dead ghost in the underworld
04:10:44.400 He goes to rescue him after defeating his evil uncle
04:10:47.400 He goes to rescue his dead father
04:10:49.400 And when he goes down into the underworld
04:10:51.400 He has an eye in his hand that Seth, the evil one, tore from his head during their combat
04:10:58.400 And instead of putting the eye back in his head he gives it to his father
04:11:02.400 And then his father can see again
04:11:04.400 And then they both go back up to the surface of the world
04:11:07.400 And it's their union that constitutes the spirit of the Pharaoh
04:11:11.400 It's an absolutely unbelievably remarkable story
04:11:14.400 Because the idea is
04:11:15.400 Well
04:11:16.400 You will be damaged in your confrontation with life
04:11:20.400 Particularly if you confront malevolence
04:11:22.400 Because the confrontation with malevolence damages people
04:11:25.400 It will damage your vision
04:11:26.400 But if you take that damaged part of you
04:11:30.400 And you reunite it with the dead spirit of your father
04:11:34.400 Then you can revitalize that
04:11:35.400 That will strengthen you
04:11:36.400 And that will enable you to move forward into the future
04:11:38.400 It's like that's just exactly right
04:11:41.400 And it's one of the deepest religious presuppositions of humanity
04:11:47.400 You see it everywhere, that idea
04:11:49.400 That's what you're doing in university
04:11:50.400 If you take a liberal arts course, degree
04:11:53.400 It's like you're resurrecting your dead ancestors
04:11:57.400 So they can live again in your form
04:11:59.400 But in conjoined union with you
04:12:01.400 You're the vision that gives the dead past its vitality and spirit
04:12:06.400 And that's the purpose of being educated
04:12:09.400 That's your initiation
04:12:11.400 And partly what you do when you're initiated properly in that regard
04:12:15.400 Is you develop a comprehensive philosophy of good and evil
04:12:18.400 A deep philosophy of good and evil
04:12:20.400 And that protects you against the confrontation with malevolence
04:12:23.400 And I know that
04:12:25.400 You know, I know that not least
04:12:26.400 Because one of the things that's happened to me
04:12:29.400 As a consequence of putting all these lectures online
04:12:32.400 Is that I've had many military people
04:12:34.400 Write me and come and talk to me
04:12:36.400 Who had post-traumatic stress disorder
04:12:38.400 And that's almost always a consequence
04:12:40.400 Often of them viewing themselves do something dreadful
04:12:44.400 But sometimes viewing that occurring as a consequence of other people's actions
04:12:49.400 Until they have a philosophy of good and evil
04:12:51.400 They can't recover from their post-traumatic stress disorder
04:12:54.400 And, like, if you're naive
04:12:58.400 Metaphysically naive
04:12:59.400 And you come in contact with someone who truly wants to hurt you
04:13:03.400 The probability that that will undo you psychologically is very, very high
04:13:07.400 So you have to be wise as serpents
04:13:10.400 That's the old saying
04:13:11.400 You have to be wise as a serpent
04:13:13.400 Because otherwise you have no protection against serpents
04:13:24.400 Maybe we'll do two more
04:13:26.400 Because I'm starting to get fuzzy minded
04:13:28.400 And I've learned to quit at that point
04:13:30.400 Mostly
04:13:31.400 So we talked a bit before
04:13:34.400 Or, yeah, before you started
04:13:35.400 Don't know exactly how to phrase this
04:13:37.400 And I think that this will be
04:13:38.400 Like, I do want to, like, acknowledge that all of this Q&A has been amazing
04:13:42.400 Because it's basically been a lecture mixed with reality
04:13:45.400 And
04:13:46.400 That's a good combination
04:13:47.400 Yeah, it's a good combination
04:13:48.400 We've all learned something from this
04:13:50.400 And I don't think many speakers I go to actually know how to combine that the way you did
04:13:54.400 So thank you for that
04:13:56.400 But, uh, I guess this question is a bit of a departure from that
04:14:00.400 And it's sort of going to something more of a
04:14:04.400 Something I don't think everyone can relate to
04:14:06.400 Because it's
04:14:07.400 In your book you say don't lie
04:14:09.400 And I think that
04:14:10.400 After living 21 short years
04:14:12.400 I learned that the hard way
04:14:14.400 But
04:14:15.400 You and your life
04:14:16.400 And me and my life
04:14:17.400 I feel like we both had
04:14:19.400 A moment where
04:14:21.400 We've had to confront
04:14:22.400 A self-alienating instance of nature
04:14:25.400 Where
04:14:26.400 There is no path forward
04:14:27.400 That we really
04:14:28.400 Have at our disposal
04:14:30.400 And
04:14:31.400 There was a point where
04:14:33.400 An unnatural amount of growth
04:14:35.400 Had to come out of us
04:14:36.400 So I just wanted to know
04:14:37.400 Where you drew that line
04:14:38.400 At your own
04:14:39.400 Ability to develop as a person
04:14:42.400 To where you didn't become tunnel-visioned
04:14:44.400 With
04:14:45.400 Trying to
04:14:46.400 Face life's problems
04:14:47.400 On your own
04:14:48.400 Or
04:14:49.400 Yeah, well we had talked
04:14:50.400 Just before this
04:14:51.400 The second part of this Q&A
04:14:52.400 About
04:14:53.400 My daughter's illness
04:14:54.400 And about
04:14:55.400 This gentleman's
04:14:56.400 Had illness in his family too
04:14:57.400 So that's kind of
04:14:58.400 The background of this
04:14:59.400 The first part of that is
04:15:00.400 Like
04:15:01.400 If we were going to be
04:15:04.400 Pessimistically realistic
04:15:06.400 About all this
04:15:07.400 I would say that
04:15:09.400 Your best bet is truth
04:15:12.400 But that doesn't necessarily mean
04:15:14.400 That's always going to do the trick
04:15:16.400 Right
04:15:17.400 I mean sometimes
04:15:18.400 You go fight a dragon
04:15:20.400 And it eats you
04:15:21.400 And if
04:15:22.400 The
04:15:23.400 If you being eaten
04:15:24.400 Wasn't a real possibility
04:15:26.400 It wouldn't be a real fight
04:15:28.400 And so you see people
04:15:30.400 Like I've seen people
04:15:31.400 In my clinical practice sometimes
04:15:34.400 I had one client in particular
04:15:37.400 Who was undergoing a particularly vicious divorce
04:15:40.400 With someone who was really
04:15:42.400 Seriously inclined to take him out
04:15:44.400 And would do pretty much everything
04:15:46.400 At her disposal to do so
04:15:48.400 And I strategized with him
04:15:50.400 For about three years
04:15:51.400 And we did everything
04:15:53.400 Like
04:15:54.400 And hyper carefully
04:15:55.400 He was a very conscientious
04:15:57.400 And diligent person
04:15:58.400 And he
04:15:59.400 Put into practice
04:16:00.400 Everything that we discussed
04:16:01.400 And strategized
04:16:02.400 And he still pretty much
04:16:03.400 He got backed into a corner so hard
04:16:05.400 That I didn't know how to help him anymore
04:16:07.400 So
04:16:08.400 I would say however
04:16:10.400 That he
04:16:11.400 Like he was a very truthful person
04:16:12.400 Throughout that
04:16:13.400 And one thing he did do
04:16:14.400 Was
04:16:15.400 Part of it was a custody battle
04:16:17.400 And he did manage
04:16:20.400 Despite his decline
04:16:22.400 In consequence of being repeatedly cornered
04:16:25.400 I would say
04:16:26.400 He did manage to establish
04:16:28.400 What I think
04:16:29.400 Was a lasting relationship
04:16:30.400 With his kids
04:16:31.400 So
04:16:32.400 He might have got
04:16:33.400 Enough
04:16:34.400 Out of
04:16:35.400 What he did
04:16:36.400 To justify it
04:16:37.400 Even though
04:16:38.400 The whole landscape
04:16:39.400 Was pretty
04:16:40.400 Awful
04:16:41.400 I think that
04:16:43.400 Not lying
04:16:44.400 Is your best
04:16:45.400 Bet
04:16:46.400 But
04:16:47.400 Life is hard
04:16:48.400 And people get run over
04:16:50.400 And
04:16:51.400 It doesn't necessarily mean
04:16:52.400 That you're going to emerge
04:16:53.400 In any obvious sense
04:16:54.400 Triumphant
04:16:55.400 But
04:16:56.400 If you take the alternative path
04:16:58.400 Especially when you're
04:17:00.400 Facing severe tribulations
04:17:02.400 Let's say
04:17:03.400 And you complicate those with deceit
04:17:05.400 You can be sure
04:17:06.400 That whatever tragedy
04:17:07.400 That you're confronting
04:17:08.400 Is going to turn into
04:17:09.400 Not only tragedy
04:17:10.400 But something very much
04:17:11.400 Akin to hell
04:17:12.400 And so
04:17:13.400 You might be able to
04:17:14.400 At least minimize
04:17:15.400 The degree of suffering
04:17:16.400 Even if you can't
04:17:18.400 Overcome it
04:17:19.400 Or transcend it
04:17:20.400 And that's something
04:17:22.400 You know
04:17:23.400 It's something
04:17:24.400 I'm always reminded
04:17:26.400 In a discussion like this
04:17:27.400 Of what I watched
04:17:28.400 When my
04:17:29.400 My wife's family
04:17:30.400 Were around the deathbed
04:17:31.400 Of her mother
04:17:32.400 She had
04:17:33.400 Frontotemporal dementia
04:17:35.400 Which is like Alzheimer's
04:17:37.400 Quite an awful way to go
04:17:38.400 And
04:17:39.400 Her
04:17:41.400 Husband
04:17:42.400 My father-in-law
04:17:43.400 My father-in-law
04:17:44.400 Really stepped up to the plate
04:17:46.400 Like
04:17:47.400 He was quite
04:17:48.400 The man about town
04:17:49.400 Very extroverted
04:17:50.400 Partier type
04:17:51.400 And quite disagreeable
04:17:52.400 But when his wife
04:17:53.400 Got sick man
04:17:54.400 He was there
04:17:55.400 It was something to watch
04:17:56.400 And so
04:17:57.400 He turned
04:17:58.400 What could have been
04:17:59.400 Absolutely dreadful
04:18:00.400 Into just miserable
04:18:01.400 And then
04:18:02.400 When
04:18:03.400 Their entire family
04:18:04.400 Was gathered around
04:18:05.400 Her deathbed
04:18:06.400 Like
04:18:07.400 And her sister
04:18:08.400 Had both dealt
04:18:10.400 With dying people
04:18:11.400 Before
04:18:12.400 And the other sister
04:18:13.400 Was a pharmacist
04:18:14.400 And
04:18:15.400 They
04:18:16.400 Were attentive to their mother
04:18:17.400 And
04:18:18.400 There was no
04:18:19.400 Foolish catastrophes
04:18:21.400 Going
04:18:22.400 On
04:18:23.400 Between the family
04:18:24.400 And they all pulled together
04:18:25.400 And so
04:18:26.400 Their mother died
04:18:27.400 But
04:18:28.400 What I observed
04:18:29.400 Was that their
04:18:30.400 Bonds were strengthened
04:18:31.400 As a consequence
04:18:32.400 And that
04:18:33.400 They gained something
04:18:34.400 From the tightening
04:18:35.400 Of the remaining relationships
04:18:36.400 That was at least
04:18:37.400 Partial compensation
04:18:38.400 For the loss of their mother
04:18:40.400 And that beat the hell
04:18:41.400 Out of squabbling
04:18:42.400 About everything
04:18:43.400 While she was dying
04:18:44.400 Because that's a real possibility
04:18:46.400 And people certainly do that
04:18:48.400 So
04:18:53.400 One more
04:18:54.400 And maybe we'll call it the night
04:19:00.400 So Dr. Peterson
04:19:01.400 The one thing that
04:19:02.400 Has been kind of going through my mind
04:19:04.400 In this
04:19:05.400 Discussion
04:19:06.400 In general
04:19:07.400 When I've watched her videos
04:19:08.400 Personally one of the most interesting aspects
04:19:11.400 Of neuroscience
04:19:12.400 To me
04:19:13.400 Is neuroplasticity
04:19:14.400 And the brain's capacity
04:19:15.400 To change
04:19:16.400 To be adaptive
04:19:17.400 But
04:19:18.400 I think that
04:19:19.400 A thematic issue
04:19:20.400 In your talks
04:19:21.400 And
04:19:22.400 You know
04:19:23.400 In your arguments
04:19:24.400 Is that
04:19:25.400 People
04:19:26.400 Both on the left
04:19:27.400 And on the red
04:19:28.400 To be
04:19:29.400 You know
04:19:30.400 Possessed by ideologies
04:19:31.400 By
04:19:32.400 E-points
04:19:33.400 That hold them
04:19:34.400 To be stagnant
04:19:35.400 And not to change their opinions
04:19:36.400 And the e-points
04:19:37.400 And they don't really understand them
04:19:38.400 Maybe to the level that they should
04:19:39.400 But
04:19:40.400 They clutch them
04:19:41.400 Right
04:19:42.400 And
04:19:43.400 So my opinion
04:19:44.400 Is that
04:19:45.400 That indicates a little bit of a paradox
04:19:47.400 Because
04:19:48.400 You know
04:19:49.400 We are wired
04:19:50.400 We are hardwired essentially
04:19:51.400 To become
04:19:52.400 A debt to change
04:19:53.400 We are able to
04:19:54.400 Change ourselves
04:19:55.400 To respond to the thing
04:19:56.400 In our environment
04:19:57.400 And
04:19:58.400 Our brain itself
04:19:59.400 Changed
04:20:00.400 Not just our behavior
04:20:01.400 But
04:20:02.400 The actual
04:20:03.400 The haters
04:20:04.400 The derivation
04:20:05.400 Of what's actually changing
04:20:06.400 So your argument is that
04:20:07.400 A lot of people will become
04:20:08.400 You know
04:20:09.400 Attaches
04:20:10.400 And they'll stay stagnant
04:20:11.400 So how do you explain
04:20:12.400 You know
04:20:13.400 What aspects of cultural phenomena
04:20:14.400 Or
04:20:15.400 You know
04:20:16.400 Just social discourse
04:20:17.400 What is so powerful about that
04:20:18.400 That it overcomes
04:20:19.400 Our predisposed conditions
04:20:20.400 To be able to change
04:20:22.400 Well change is
04:20:23.400 Change is
04:20:24.400 Especially if it's
04:20:26.400 The more radical the necessary change
04:20:29.400 The more pain that accompanies it
04:20:31.400 Like the more opportunity as well
04:20:33.400 But
04:20:34.400 And a lot of what we learn
04:20:35.400 We learn painfully
04:20:36.400 And so it's not surprising
04:20:37.400 That people shrink away from learning
04:20:39.400 We learn in pain and anxiety
04:20:41.400 Very frequently
04:20:42.400 Everyone knows that
04:20:43.400 Like the things that really
04:20:45.400 That you really learned in life
04:20:46.400 It's like
04:20:47.400 It was no joy man
04:20:48.400 Like it took you out
04:20:49.400 And so the fact that people
04:20:51.400 Flee from that
04:20:52.400 Is hardly surprising
04:20:54.400 But
04:20:55.400 It doesn't help
04:20:56.400 That's the thing
04:20:57.400 It just stores up
04:20:58.400 The catastrophe for later
04:20:59.400 And so the better
04:21:01.400 The better idea
04:21:02.400 Is to eat a little poison everyday
04:21:04.400 So that you don't have to
04:21:05.400 Overdose in a month
04:21:06.400 It's something like that
04:21:07.400 And
04:21:08.400 It is the case that
04:21:10.400 I think
04:21:11.400 Because
04:21:12.400 You don't
04:21:13.400 You aren't forced
04:21:14.400 First of all
04:21:15.400 You don't learn
04:21:16.400 Unless you're forced to learn
04:21:17.400 I know there's
04:21:18.400 Alternatives to that
04:21:19.400 The voluntary search for knowledge
04:21:21.400 And that's a fine thing
04:21:22.400 And that is an antidote
04:21:23.400 To this
04:21:24.400 But
04:21:25.400 Apart from that
04:21:26.400 Speaking more
04:21:27.400 Practically
04:21:28.400 You tend not to learn
04:21:30.400 Unless you're forced to learn
04:21:31.400 And
04:21:32.400 It's
04:21:33.400 And what you tend to learn
04:21:34.400 By force are difficult lessons
04:21:35.400 And so people are
04:21:37.400 Very prone to
04:21:38.400 Not
04:21:39.400 To not seek that out
04:21:41.400 It's not surprising
04:21:43.400 But it's because
04:21:44.400 They don't understand
04:21:45.400 The consequences very well
04:21:46.400 You know
04:21:48.400 You
04:21:49.400 It's because
04:21:50.400 Maybe
04:21:51.400 It's because
04:21:52.400 They're convinced
04:21:53.400 That there's some way
04:21:54.400 Of forestalling
04:21:55.400 The necessary learning
04:21:56.400 And
04:21:57.400 There isn't
04:21:58.400 Any way of forestalling it
04:21:59.400 All you do
04:22:00.400 Is make it worse
04:22:01.400 In the future
04:22:02.400 You make yourself smaller
04:22:03.400 And you make the lesson harder
04:22:04.400 And so that's why
04:22:06.400 In so many
04:22:07.400 Religious doctrines
04:22:08.400 There's emphasis on humility
04:22:10.400 You know
04:22:11.400 And humility
04:22:12.400 Isn't to debase yourself
04:22:14.400 It's to understand
04:22:15.400 That
04:22:16.400 You don't know enough
04:22:18.400 So that your life
04:22:19.400 Isn't going to be miserable
04:22:20.400 And so
04:22:21.400 Every chance you get
04:22:22.400 To grab something new
04:22:24.400 That will help you
04:22:25.400 Along your way
04:22:26.400 You should take it
04:22:27.400 As fast as you can
04:22:28.400 But you have to have
04:22:29.400 A very
04:22:30.400 Tragic
04:22:33.400 I would say
04:22:35.400 View of reality
04:22:36.400 And also a harsh one
04:22:37.400 Because it's not just tragedy
04:22:38.400 It's also malevolence
04:22:39.400 You have to understand
04:22:40.400 That those are waiting for you
04:22:41.400 And
04:22:42.400 That makes you desperate
04:22:44.400 Enough to learn
04:22:45.400 And that might make you
04:22:46.400 Desperate enough
04:22:47.400 To fall out of your ideology
04:22:49.400 But
04:22:50.400 That's
04:22:51.400 That's a hard way
04:22:52.400 Of looking at the world
04:22:54.400 It beats living through it though
04:22:56.400 It was very nice talking to all of you
04:23:01.400 Thank you to all of you
04:23:02.400 Thank you
04:23:03.400 Thank you
04:23:04.400 Thank you
04:23:05.400 Thank you
04:23:07.400 Thank you
04:23:08.400 Thank you
04:23:09.400 Thank you
04:23:10.400 Thank you
04:23:12.400 We'll see you next time.
04:23:42.400 She loves being cool.
04:23:44.000 21 degrees is her favorite number.
04:23:46.820 God, she's the coolest, especially at night.
04:23:49.780 So I raise the temp at 10 p.m. because she gets chilly when she sleeps.
04:23:53.960 Maya loves using less energy, and I love Maya.
04:23:57.020 We're basically besties.
04:23:58.920 With SmartFlow from Enbridge Sustain, you won't have to think about your HVAC,
04:24:02.620 but it will always be thinking of you.
04:24:04.500 With smart controls and zero upfront costs,
04:24:06.680 visit EnbridgeSustainSmartFlow.com to learn more.