The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - Meaning, Depression, & the Weight of the World

00:00:00.940 Hey everyone, real quick before you skip, I want to talk to you about something serious and important.

00:00:06.480 Dr. Jordan Peterson has created a new series that could be a lifeline for those battling depression and anxiety.

00:00:12.740 We know how isolating and overwhelming these conditions can be, and we wanted to take a moment to reach out to those listening who may be struggling.

00:00:20.100 With decades of experience helping patients, Dr. Peterson offers a unique understanding of why you might be feeling this way in his new series.

00:00:27.420 He provides a roadmap towards healing, showing that while the journey isn't easy, it's absolutely possible to find your way forward.

00:00:35.360 If you're suffering, please know you are not alone. There's hope, and there's a path to feeling better.

00:00:41.800 Go to Daily Wire Plus now and start watching Dr. Jordan B. Peterson on depression and anxiety.

00:00:47.460 Let this be the first step towards the brighter future you deserve.

00:00:50.980 Please enjoy today's episode of the Dr. Jordan B. Peterson podcast, a special presentation from the Beyond Order tour, shot on location in Dublin, Ireland.

00:01:01.980 And now, please welcome, Tammy Peterson!

00:01:17.260 Thank you!

00:01:31.980 Hello, Dublin!

00:01:40.060 My grandfather was from Belfast, so when I come here, I kind of...

00:01:45.980 Yeah, right on.

00:01:48.580 So Dr. Peterson's going to come out here tonight.

00:01:52.060 I'm sure you're very much looking forward to it. I'm looking forward to it.

00:01:55.560 And with that, I won't let you wait any longer. I'll invite Dr. Jordan B. Peterson out on stage.

00:02:01.960 Thank you.

00:02:02.020 Thank you.

00:02:25.560 You Irishmen are such an excitable bunch.

00:02:40.520 It's always fun to come to Dublin.

00:02:43.360 I think it's probably too much fun to come to Dublin, actually.

00:02:47.160 Yeah, so it's really remarkable to see you all here and appreciate, as I always do, appreciate the fact that you've all taken the time and expended the effort to come and see this.

00:03:01.740 I thought I would wander through the 24 rules, and I don't know how many I'll address, but we'll see how it goes.

00:03:10.000 So maybe we'll start with a rule from the first book, 12 Rules.

00:03:14.740 Treat yourself, this is rule number two.

00:03:17.740 Treat yourself like you are someone you are responsible for helping.

00:03:22.340 That's a hard one.

00:03:24.900 There's an injunction, a moral injunction, that you should treat other people like you would like to be treated yourself.

00:03:31.860 The golden rule, let's say.

00:03:34.160 And rather than he who has the gold makes the rules, right?

00:03:38.860 That's not an injunction to sacrifice yourself in some unending way for the benefit of other people, which is often how it's interpreted.

00:03:50.400 And it's not that.

00:03:52.620 It's advice in relationship to reciprocity.

00:03:57.700 And this is something really worth knowing.

00:03:59.860 I've been thinking about this for a long time.

00:04:01.940 You know, because I got interested in the nature of malevolence and motivation for atrocity.

00:04:09.400 I got interested in the nature of evil.

00:04:11.400 And certainly as a consequence of studying atrocious behavior at the clinical level, and then also at the political and economic and sociological level, I definitely became convinced that it's a very naive person indeed who doubts the existence of evil.

00:04:28.120 I think it's easier to become convinced of the reality of evil than it is to become convinced of the reality of good.

00:04:35.880 It's easier to define evil than it is to define good.

00:04:39.700 But if you can specify the nature of evil, you help yourself infer the existence of good.

00:04:49.660 Because you can say to yourself, you can conclude that whatever good is, difficult though it may be to put your finger on it, it's the opposite of evil.

00:05:00.340 Well, I did have this inkling, you know, way years ago when I taught at Harvard, I was teaching about very dark things, about individual motivation for the sort of acts that characterized, say, the worst atrocities of the Holocaust and the catastrophic situation with regards to Stalinist Russia.

00:05:20.700 Those were the two places I focused on the most.

00:05:23.280 And I had this voice in the back of my head always when I was lecturing, very serious lectures, that if I could really manage those lectures properly, I would do it with a sense of humor.

00:05:35.260 And I thought, that just cannot be right.

00:05:37.440 How in the world can you deal with a topic that dark in a manner that's playful?

00:05:44.720 I thought that's...

00:05:45.860 But the voice wouldn't go away.

00:05:47.140 And I knew there was something to it.

00:05:48.560 I knew there was something to it.

00:05:49.800 And so, I've been trying to think about, how do you concisely conceptualize the opposite of evil?

00:06:01.760 How can you tell when things are going in the opposite direction?

00:06:07.200 What...

00:06:07.680 If there's a malevolent spirit that might inhabit you if you walk down the darkest possible road,

00:06:13.120 what would be the opposite of that spirit if it is inhabiting you, so to speak, if you were walking down the most positive of roads?

00:06:20.460 And I would say, I do believe this to be the case, that that's play.

00:06:26.860 So, you know, children play.

00:06:28.920 And it says that there's a gospel statement that unless you become as little children, you'll never enter the kingdom of heaven.

00:06:35.280 That's a very complicated statement.

00:06:36.880 It means, in part, to regain the pristine perceptions of wonder that you had as a gift, in some sense, when you were a child.

00:06:47.640 If you have children, young children, you get to partake in that if your eyes are the least bit open.

00:06:52.940 Because one of the things that's absolutely wonderful about young children and having them around,

00:06:56.820 and the way, in some sense, they pay you for the painstaking care that you need to exercise when you're caring for them,

00:07:03.940 is that they enable you to see the world through fresh eyes,

00:07:07.920 and to see things in their untrammeled by cynicism glory.

00:07:14.540 And it's hard to open yourself up to that, you know,

00:07:17.900 especially if you're an adult who's built layers of shells around yourself for any number of reasons.

00:07:24.460 But children offer you that opportunity.

00:07:26.900 And so one of the reasons that you should become as a little child is so that you can see miracles

00:07:31.540 when they unfold in front of you, instead of being blinded by your own defense of cynicism.

00:07:37.820 And children can definitely help with that.

00:07:40.700 But also, children play.

00:07:43.120 And, you know, we sort of stop playing as we grow older, and we think we mature out of it,

00:07:47.580 but that's not right.

00:07:49.120 What happens is that we can no longer do it.

00:07:52.160 And a lot of that, I think, is associated with the shock of puberty, you know,

00:07:56.480 because you have to integrate sexuality into play, and that's really hard.

00:08:02.000 It's really challenging for people, partly because you're more likely to be rejected

00:08:06.240 on the sexual front, for example, and that's very hard on people.

00:08:09.800 And then also, it's a more dangerous game, that's for sure.

00:08:13.160 And so it's a big challenge, and a lot of people stop playing when they're teenagers.

00:08:19.360 One of the reasons, I think, that we've had somewhat of an explosion of unhappiness and

00:08:25.740 mental illness, particularly among women, by the way, over the last 30 years, is because

00:08:31.500 a lot of what we've done inadvertently has interfered with children's ability to play.

00:08:37.880 And so, for example, it's very hard for boys to play in school, because almost everything

00:08:43.600 they're required to do is antithetical to the rough-and-tumble ethos of masculine play.

00:08:48.200 That's really hard on young boys.

00:08:50.980 And with young girls, oh, I was talking, I believe it was to Jonathan Haidt recently,

00:08:56.440 a famous psychologist in the United States, and he said that girls have almost stopped

00:09:00.180 doing patty cake and skipping and that sort of thing.

00:09:03.160 You know, and these are deeply embodied forms of play that might be something like the female

00:09:08.100 equivalent of rough-and-tumble play among males.

00:09:11.220 And that rough-and-tumble play is a form of embodied dance, you know, because if you're wrestling,

00:09:16.340 and fathers really like to do this with their kids, and kids really like it, and they really

00:09:22.340 need it, it teaches you the extent of your body, you know, it teaches you how to twist

00:09:27.300 your body and to push it to its limits and to expose yourself to fear, you know, maybe

00:09:32.700 your father throws you up in the air and catches you.

00:09:34.800 Can you imagine doing, someone doing that to you as an adult?

00:09:37.660 A 12-foot-high person just tosses you in the air and catches you.

00:09:41.260 It's no wonder children sort of scream with terror and delight, but they do, and they

00:09:46.520 really, you just can't believe how much they need that to engage in that play, because they

00:09:52.240 also learn what hurts them and what doesn't, because the most fun, direct, physical play

00:09:58.460 with kids pushes them right to the ragged edge of disaster, right?

00:10:01.440 It's like it's right where it almost hurts, that it's most exciting, and hardly what you're

00:10:07.380 doing when you're playing is calibrating it to make sure that it's as exciting as possible,

00:10:12.040 but not too exciting, and the rough-and-tumble play is deeply embodied, it's not just abstract,

00:10:17.680 right?

00:10:17.900 It involves pain and anxiety and excitement and frustration and turn-taking and attention.

00:10:25.540 It's very sophisticated, and that's just on the rough-and-tumble front.

00:10:29.220 And then later, you know, as kids develop, they start to engage in pretend play, and there's

00:10:36.700 no difference between pretend play and thinking.

00:10:39.760 They are the same thing, you know, and children envision who they might be, they construct a

00:10:46.600 fictional character, a father or mother playing house, let's say, that's a very common form

00:10:51.480 of pretend play, and then they act it out, and in doing so, they inhabit the roles that

00:10:57.080 they're going to take on as their adults, and if they don't do that, they don't know how

00:11:00.660 to do it, you know?

00:11:01.460 One of the things I was worried about to some degree, when my son was little, he had an

00:11:06.760 older, his older sister, about a year and a half older, he was often surrounded by her

00:11:10.580 friends, and they used to dress him up like as a princess or a fairy, and I was always looking

00:11:15.220 kind of askance at that, so I didn't want it to go too far, you know, whatever that meant.

00:11:19.960 But then I realized, when I was watching, he was having fun, and so were they, and I

00:11:24.880 was watching it very carefully to see what was going on, and I thought, oh, oh, I've got

00:11:29.140 to leave this completely alone, because what he's doing is acting out what it's like to

00:11:35.300 be a girl, and how in the world are you going to understand that if you can't act it out?

00:11:39.840 And then, if you forbid it, say you can't do that, well, what's the message?

00:11:44.140 It's like, you can't understand females.

00:11:47.280 Well, of course you can't, but you shouldn't stop your son from trying, that's for sure.

00:12:03.100 And so, and that should be done in a spirit of play, and you know, if you're, if you have

00:12:08.200 a good marriage, good partnership with anyone, I don't care who it is, but let's say a marriage,

00:12:13.500 the more that you can elevate what you're doing to play, the better off you are in every

00:12:20.060 possible way, and you know, there are preconditions for play among children.

00:12:23.980 One precondition is, the person that you would like to play with has to want to play with

00:12:31.400 you, right?

00:12:32.820 It has to 100% be voluntary.

00:12:35.860 It cannot emerge, even, we know this even psychobiologically, there's a fair bit known

00:12:41.520 now about the, say, the underlying neurological circuitry that's involved in play, because

00:12:47.780 there's a specialized neurological apparatus in mammals for play.

00:12:53.980 And it's not merely a decoration on top of something more fundamental.

00:12:57.820 It's, this is a very, very deep and fundamental part of the human psyche, and any, and the

00:13:05.560 psyche of any animal that has to engage in reciprocal, repeated social interaction.

00:13:10.600 Because you might ask yourself, you know, how do you know if you're interacting with another

00:13:15.840 person properly?

00:13:17.520 Well, you might ask, well, what does properly mean?

00:13:20.060 Well, it might mean they want to interact with you.

00:13:22.320 It might mean they want to interact with you in a way that could repeat many, many times

00:13:27.940 and maybe improve as it's repeating.

00:13:30.680 You know, you want to get along with people, and you want it to work now, but you want it

00:13:35.180 to work now in a way that gets better across time.

00:13:37.860 And then you might think, if that's the right way to act, whatever that means, and it's a

00:13:42.220 stable right way to act, because it emerges out of iterated social interactions, that you

00:13:48.820 might have an instinct to mark when that's happening, and that's what happens when you

00:13:54.220 play.

00:13:55.020 And people find that absolutely delightful.

00:13:57.760 If you're sitting around with your friends in a bar, generally you're joking around.

00:14:02.320 And, you know, that can get kind of rough, but it doesn't have to.

00:14:05.360 But it could edge towards rough, because that's kind of fun, and it's a bit proddy, you know,

00:14:10.100 to see where you can find the edge.

00:14:12.320 And that can be riotously entertaining.

00:14:15.060 And that's all done in the spirit of play.

00:14:18.360 And so you could say that a proper friendship is actually predicated, has its basis in the

00:14:23.420 spirit of play.

00:14:24.500 And then, with regards to the atrocity and evil that I was discussing earlier, say, well,

00:14:30.340 if it's power and compulsion and pride, let's say, self-centeredness, a kind of narrow

00:14:36.160 self-centeredness, and a narcissism, hatred, a bitterness, all of that mangled together,

00:14:41.760 resentment, vengefulness, that all constitutes the central spirit that inhabits you if you're

00:14:49.860 acting in a malevolent manner, what might be the opposite of that?

00:14:53.960 And I do think it's the spirit of voluntary play.

00:14:57.000 You know, I had a vision of heaven at one point.

00:15:00.660 Heaven was a place where people were eternally playing.

00:15:03.980 And it was a place where everything was good, but everyone was playing to make it better

00:15:11.620 yet.

00:15:12.320 So it was a combination of what was really good, but that wasn't the end of it.

00:15:16.680 And maybe that's because being itself is not good enough.

00:15:19.560 You want becoming as well, right?

00:15:20.980 You don't want things to be static and perfect.

00:15:23.380 You want them to be as good as they can be, but dynamic, so there's still something to do.

00:15:28.600 And so you could play at making things better and better.

00:15:31.280 And that would be lovely if that was true, right?

00:15:35.160 If you could have what you wanted, if you really think it through, you might think, well,

00:15:39.360 it would be lovely if everyone could play a voluntary game that everyone wanted to play

00:15:43.900 that was aimed at making things good.

00:15:46.000 But even when they're good, the aim was to make them even better.

00:15:49.200 And then it would even be better if when you were doing that, it was marked by a sense

00:15:54.100 of, what would you say, a profound sense of positive engagement and the cessation of negative

00:16:00.980 emotion.

00:16:01.600 And one of the other things we do know about play is that it's quite disruptible by other

00:16:06.480 motivational states.

00:16:07.740 So it's not that easy for children to play if they're hungry or tired or anxious or upset

00:16:12.240 or hurt.

00:16:12.980 If your children are playing spontaneously, it's actually a mark that what you've created around

00:16:19.800 them is a walled garden, right?

00:16:21.900 The walls protect them, so there's not too much chaos and uncertainty.

00:16:25.620 And the garden is this place where things can flourish.

00:16:29.440 A playground is a walled garden in any real sense.

00:16:33.700 Walled garden, paradise.

00:16:35.360 Paradeza means walled garden, by the way.

00:16:37.800 It's a balance between culture and nature or between structure and possibility.

00:16:42.060 You could also think about a walled garden as a game because a game isn't you can do anything

00:16:47.200 you want.

00:16:47.920 A game is here's some principles, rules, you might say.

00:16:51.040 Here's some principles by which you can govern your behavior within that set of principles.

00:16:57.020 Here's some play, right?

00:16:58.800 Some freedom to maneuver.

00:17:00.440 Not so much that you drown and no one knows what they're doing.

00:17:04.000 Just exactly the right amount so that it's playful.

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00:18:45.280 And so back to treat yourself like you are someone you're responsible for helping.

00:18:54.260 Well, you want to approach other people in the spirit of play, but I would say, even

00:19:01.360 though you probably shouldn't teach people to play with themselves, so to speak, it's

00:19:07.260 the right attitude to bring to bear on yourself too.

00:19:10.100 And that's a hard thing to do, you know, like, we tend to think that most people, if

00:19:16.560 we're cynical, we think, well, people are rather selfish.

00:19:19.760 They're self-centered.

00:19:20.720 They only want what's good for themselves.

00:19:23.100 It's like, first of all, that's actually not true.

00:19:27.200 There are some people who will routinely take advantage of other people to get what they

00:19:32.560 want in the moment.

00:19:34.280 But that's pretty rare in its extreme forms, which would be psychopathy.

00:19:39.860 Let's say, in its extreme forms, it's never more than about 3% of people.

00:19:44.720 And then around the psychopaths, there might be another kind of cloud of narcissists who

00:19:48.820 are inclining in the same direction, but haven't got quite so far.

00:19:53.780 And maybe you could add another 5% on that, you know, depending on the severity.

00:20:00.460 But that's, it's just not the case for most people.

00:20:03.580 Most people have the reverse problem.

00:20:05.400 They treat themselves worse than they treat other people.

00:20:09.680 And why?

00:20:11.420 Well, why would you do that?

00:20:12.800 Well, you know, maybe you treat other people not so well because you think they deserve it.

00:20:19.480 And why would you think that?

00:20:21.420 Well, because you know things about them aren't as good as they could be.

00:20:25.320 And you know that they've made mistakes.

00:20:27.140 They've walked off the pathway.

00:20:28.620 They've done things they shouldn't have done.

00:20:30.620 And so, you don't treat them as well as you might otherwise.

00:20:34.720 But then you know that about yourself more than you know that about anyone else, right?

00:20:38.780 You have privileged access if you want it.

00:20:42.140 And even if you don't, you sort of have privileged access to the entire panoply of sins that you're

00:20:49.020 responsible for.

00:20:50.300 And that's a lot.

00:20:51.740 You know, and most people bear a pretty damn heavy burden of existential guilt.

00:20:57.260 And some of that isn't warranted.

00:20:59.160 You know, lots of times you see people in the Freudian sense who have a super ego that's yelling at them

00:21:05.760 too vociferously.

00:21:07.440 You know, one of the things you do in therapy for people who are hyper-conscientious to the point where

00:21:12.400 their own internal voice is a tyrant is you try to moderate that.

00:21:17.780 And so, people can call themselves out on their misbehavior too much.

00:21:21.380 But even if you don't do that, generally you have quite a lot of misbehavior.

00:21:26.580 And as a consequence of that, you're ashamed and uncertain about your own value.

00:21:33.800 And so then you don't think you really deserve to be treated very well.

00:21:38.140 And so then you don't.

00:21:39.620 And one of the things you do as a psychotherapist is, well, a lot of what I did, for example,

00:21:47.260 people sometimes would fall into a situation where they were being terribly accused of some

00:21:51.520 misbehavior by, maybe in a divorce case or maybe at work, and I would help them mount a defense for

00:21:57.640 themselves.

00:21:58.200 It's like, you know, we have the presumption of innocence, right?

00:22:01.340 Which is a complete bloody miracle, that presumption.

00:22:04.260 It's such a miracle that our legal system actually starts from that perspective.

00:22:11.440 Because it would be so much easier just to say, you're accused of something?

00:22:14.700 Hell, there's 20 million people in the vicinity.

00:22:18.000 We don't need you.

00:22:19.400 Maybe you're guilty.

00:22:21.420 Off with your head.

00:22:22.740 That's way simpler than, despite the fact that 40 people are coming after you with accusations,

00:22:28.880 we have to assume you're innocent, God.

00:22:32.060 And it's very hard to do that for yourself, you know, to mount a defense.

00:22:35.900 And one of the things I used to have my clients do if they're in such a situation is write

00:22:41.740 out a defense.

00:22:42.640 It's like, treat yourself like you're innocent, just for the sake of argument.

00:22:45.760 We can also do the same thing on the guilt front.

00:22:48.640 You know, maybe you should make a case when you're in trouble about why you're guilty as

00:22:53.520 well as why you're innocent to lay out the whole territory.

00:22:56.480 But at least you should defend yourself.

00:22:59.600 And then we might say, also, if you think other people are worth taking care of, if you

00:23:05.400 think that other people have value, well, there are individuals like you, and it doesn't

00:23:12.580 seem all that plausible that they could have value, and that you don't, unless you're the

00:23:17.720 worst person around, and you're probably not.

00:23:20.420 I mean, you're bad enough, but on average, you're no worse than everybody else.

00:23:24.940 Maybe in your worst moments, you know, you've managed to climb to a new pinnacle, but generally

00:23:30.940 speaking, you know, other people are carrying a fair weight of guilt around on their shoulders

00:23:36.140 too.

00:23:36.660 And so, if anyone has value, then you do.

00:23:43.120 So, what would happen if you treated yourself that way?

00:23:46.880 And this is a dead serious question.

00:23:48.760 And it isn't a matter of thought.

00:23:52.440 You know, there's a gospel statement, which is very mysterious.

00:23:56.660 Knock and the door will open.

00:23:59.320 Ask and you will receive.

00:24:01.280 Seek and you'll find.

00:24:03.060 And that, on the face of it, seems utterly preposterous.

00:24:06.020 Because could the world possibly be laid out in that manner?

00:24:09.840 That seems too good to be true.

00:24:11.140 And you've asked plenty and haven't received.

00:24:14.520 It's like, yeah, maybe not.

00:24:19.500 You know, because you've got to ask yourself what ask would mean.

00:24:23.200 That might mean something like, well, first of all, you have your head screwed on straight

00:24:28.560 about who you are.

00:24:29.700 It's like, are you willing to act in your own best interest?

00:24:34.420 And that doesn't mean, are you willing to give reign to your impulsive hedonism?

00:24:38.200 You know, the problem with impulsive hedonism, and that's sort of at the core of what we

00:24:43.220 tend to describe as selfishness.

00:24:45.720 Because a selfish person is an impulsive hedonist who will sacrifice other people to that impulsive

00:24:51.800 hedonism.

00:24:52.600 And the reason I say impulsive hedonism is because it's impulsive because you want what

00:25:00.040 you want right now.

00:25:01.940 And you want it regardless of its future costs.

00:25:04.880 And that might be future costs even for you.

00:25:07.600 You know, you know when you act impulsively, you go out and you party too much, let's say.

00:25:12.220 You have too much fun.

00:25:14.000 And you know you're burning tomorrow and the next couple of days to exaggerate the intensity

00:25:19.600 of what you have right now.

00:25:21.220 And you know that everyone knows, or you learn soon, that that's just not sustainable.

00:25:26.040 You know, you have to treat yourself in the moment in a way that doesn't interfere with

00:25:30.620 how you're going to function tomorrow and next week and a month from now and next year

00:25:36.320 and five years down the road.

00:25:37.660 You can't sacrifice the future for the present.

00:25:40.900 If you're an impulsive hedonist, you're not exactly selfish.

00:25:44.920 You're selfish and immature.

00:25:46.880 And you're selfish because it's about you.

00:25:48.940 But you're stupidly selfish because it's about you now.

00:25:52.400 And that's just unwise in every sense of the word.

00:25:56.760 You know, the younger you are, and I mean chronologically, the more impulsive and hedonically oriented

00:26:03.960 in some deep sense you are.

00:26:05.320 Two-year-olds are very impulsive.

00:26:07.140 And that's why we don't let them set up colonies and live independently.

00:26:12.760 You know, they can't govern their behavior with regards to future consequences.

00:26:17.240 They're not mature and wise enough to have that breadth of view.

00:26:23.040 And hopefully as you mature, you become capable of regulating your behavior in the present

00:26:28.980 so that your own path goes, at least stays steady, but hopefully even goes uphill.

00:26:35.300 And so that's back to this rule is treat yourself like you are someone you are responsible for

00:26:41.400 helping, is that I think in some real sense you want to enter into the kind of relationship

00:26:47.520 with yourself that's also marked in its highest manner by the spirit of play.

00:26:55.380 And we know this too.

00:26:57.360 We look for experiences like this all the time to put us in that place, although we don't

00:27:02.400 necessarily notice that that's what we're doing.

00:27:05.560 When you go to a concert, you go to hear musicians play.

00:27:10.100 And when you go to a dramatic production, a movie, you see people playing a part.

00:27:18.000 And the playing part of that isn't trivial.

00:27:20.700 And you go there to participate in the play.

00:27:23.820 And you do the same thing when you go to a sports event.

00:27:26.980 You know, and you do it in an embodied way.

00:27:29.740 And it's so interesting to watch, you know.

00:27:31.600 If you're watching a football game and some remarkable player makes a remarkable shot,

00:27:37.320 you'll jump up to your feet and throw your arms in the air before you even notice, right?

00:27:41.400 It's completely spontaneous.

00:27:42.900 It's completely bottom-up.

00:27:44.640 It's not that much different than what you do when you're at a comedy show and you spontaneously

00:27:49.200 laugh, right?

00:27:50.640 You don't hear, think, that's a funny joke.

00:27:54.120 I should laugh.

00:27:55.660 There's no thought between the joke and the catching of the punchline and the spontaneous reaction.

00:28:03.220 And you do that because you want to experience that sense of play.

00:28:07.600 And we'll pay for the privilege of being in a place that's setting that up, is facilitating it.

00:28:14.520 And we all regard that, especially when it's going well, you know.

00:28:18.300 And maybe you're going to listen to a great band.

00:28:21.160 It's a genre that really speaks to you.

00:28:23.060 And the band just gets cooking, you know.

00:28:25.540 And everyone knows what that means.

00:28:26.980 And it means they're playing off each other.

00:28:28.800 That often happens when they're good at improvising, you know, so they're not just doing it note

00:28:33.280 for note, although that can be great.

00:28:34.940 But it's even better when they could do it note for note, but then start to play.

00:28:38.860 And they just get into a rhythm that's something else.

00:28:41.540 And if it's really working well, then everyone in the whole place is in the same rhythm.

00:28:45.540 And it's all pulsing with the same beat, let's say.

00:28:48.680 And everyone's just thrilled out of their mind, which is why there's like 50,000 people doing it.

00:28:54.580 And it's useful to know, what are you doing there?

00:28:56.880 And the answer seems to be, you're playing along with your favorite band.

00:29:01.940 That's a pretty good deal, eh?

00:29:03.080 Because you've got these highly skilled, creative people up front doing their best,

00:29:08.020 allowing you to mimic that in some real sense as part of the experience.

00:29:12.140 You know, people will sing along and they'll dance.

00:29:13.840 That's all mimicry.

00:29:15.080 You can't help but dance.

00:29:16.860 That's all part of the spirit of play.

00:29:18.520 And so, you treat yourself like you're someone responsible for helping.

00:29:24.900 It's a serious injunction, even though its aim is play.

00:29:29.280 And this is part of asking, too, before you receive.

00:29:31.960 It's like, okay, give yourself the benefit of the doubt.

00:29:34.760 Even though it's hard, given your appalling, pathetic, ignorant, lazy nature, you know,

00:29:40.480 and all the things you could be that you aren't.

00:29:42.340 It's hard to give yourself the benefit of the doubt.

00:29:45.220 But you could say, well, would it really be so terrible if my life wasn't miserable?

00:29:50.780 Would it be so terrible if I got what I wanted and needed,

00:29:54.620 especially if I was doing that in the best possible way?

00:29:58.800 And that has to be a serious question, right?

00:30:01.140 You can't just tell yourself this.

00:30:02.820 You have to open yourself up to the possibility that that might be true.

00:30:06.500 Then you can say to yourself, well, if I could have what I needed and wanted

00:30:09.680 in a manner that would be best for me,

00:30:12.560 and you can imagine that takes a fair bit of orientation to get that question right,

00:30:16.780 then what would my life look like?

00:30:19.660 And that's a frightening question.

00:30:21.160 People generally are loath to ask themselves that question

00:30:25.640 because there's a couple of reasons.

00:30:27.860 One is maybe you feel you don't deserve it.

00:30:30.860 Well, another is you don't know that that's what you should do

00:30:33.200 because we're so badly taught that this idea is generally not presented to people,

00:30:39.060 which is just absolutely appalling beyond belief as far as I can tell.

00:30:42.980 But then there's more impediments too, eh?

00:30:45.640 Because one of the things people do to buttress themselves against failure

00:30:50.240 is to never let themselves really gain clarity about what they need and want.

00:30:58.500 Let's say you try something, but you only do it half-heartedly.

00:31:01.020 And then you fail and you think, well, I didn't really fail

00:31:05.300 because, you know, I held a bunch back in reserve

00:31:08.920 and so I didn't get what I wanted, but maybe had I been all in, I would have.

00:31:14.900 And so you don't have to upbraid yourself too much for the failure.

00:31:17.940 Now, it's a catastrophic way to live, to sit on the fence and to not commit

00:31:22.660 because instead of risking the possibility of failure,

00:31:27.700 you engage in what's essentially the absolute certainty of failure.

00:31:31.800 Because if you want something worthwhile and difficult,

00:31:35.080 which you probably do if you want to have an adventure and go somewhere,

00:31:39.180 then what's the chance you're going to get it if you're halfway in?

00:31:43.600 It's like, if you can, then you didn't aim high enough, obviously,

00:31:47.120 and that's not going to be exciting or engaging.

00:31:49.680 And so if you're actually pursuing something that would motivate you maximally,

00:31:54.700 you can't be halfway in.

00:31:56.420 But that sort of protects you against failure

00:31:58.880 because you can tell yourself, well, if I tried, I could have done it.

00:32:02.740 It's like, you know, you tell yourself that 200 times and your life's over.

00:32:07.340 And so I would seriously not recommend that.

00:32:10.280 And then another problem is that if you let yourself know what you need and want,

00:32:17.580 then you can betray yourself, right?

00:32:21.320 So do you trust yourself?

00:32:22.960 And the answer is, well, not really.

00:32:25.040 And the reason is, well, I trusted myself before and I misbehaved terribly,

00:32:29.420 so why would I do that again?

00:32:31.280 And fair enough, you know, that's a solid question.

00:32:34.060 But on the other hand,

00:32:36.320 if you don't let yourself know what you need and want,

00:32:39.580 what's the probability that you're going to do a random walk in the right direction?

00:32:43.820 And especially given that there's lots of ways to randomly walk

00:32:48.300 and there are very few pathways to what you really need and want.

00:32:52.200 And so it's an act of faith.

00:32:55.180 And I don't mean the belief in preposterous things.

00:32:58.960 I mean an act of existential courage to ask yourself what you need and want.

00:33:03.740 Imagine you wanted to live without bitterness.

00:33:05.680 You want to live without cynicism.

00:33:07.520 And maybe even more,

00:33:08.800 you wanted to live in something approximating a spirit of play.

00:33:11.620 What would you need and want to make that happen?

00:33:15.400 Well, it's very terrifying to allow yourself to envision that.

00:33:20.160 First of all, because you've made your conditions for failure very clear.

00:33:24.380 Second, because you've set yourself up to betray yourself in a fundamental way.

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00:34:36.480 And third, often the apprehension of the distance between you and that goal

00:34:45.120 can also be demoralizing and overwhelming.

00:34:48.160 Now, I think the way you deal with that is you can make a lot of progress incrementally.

00:34:52.800 You know, once you specify a goal,

00:34:54.900 you don't have to leap from where you are to the goal in one fell swoop.

00:34:59.540 If you could, you probably didn't set a difficult enough goal.

00:35:04.880 It's okay to make incremental movement forward.

00:35:07.860 That's why there's another rule here, which is compare yourself to who you were yesterday,

00:35:13.440 not to who someone else is today.

00:35:15.920 You know, if you get the comparison right, you can say,

00:35:17.840 well, here's where I'm headed and it's worth going to.

00:35:20.100 You have to ask yourself that.

00:35:21.440 Now, is there a place I could head to that would be worth getting to?

00:35:26.120 And that's a question, right?

00:35:28.400 It's a question like you might ask your wife.

00:35:30.160 It's like, okay, if I could give you what you wanted,

00:35:33.400 it's a good thing to ask during an argument, by the way.

00:35:36.480 Really?

00:35:37.400 Really?

00:35:37.860 It has to be an honest question.

00:35:39.160 It's like, you're arguing with me.

00:35:40.440 I don't know who's right.

00:35:41.860 Neither of us, because we're both clueless and confused.

00:35:44.080 It's like, if you could have what you wanted in this moment and I could deliver it,

00:35:50.600 what would it be?

00:35:52.360 The general answer to that is something like, if you loved me, you'd know,

00:35:56.220 which is not a helpful...

00:35:57.560 How come you know that answer?

00:36:00.960 It's not a helpful answer.

00:36:02.640 It's like, no, I'm too stupid to know what you want, that's for sure.

00:36:06.800 I mean, you don't even know what you want.

00:36:08.860 So how in the world am I going to figure it out?

00:36:10.880 But it's a lovely gift to offer your partner, by the way,

00:36:13.860 the conditions for your satisfaction.

00:36:16.440 But then you have to allow yourself to know what they are,

00:36:19.540 and you have to be acting in your own best interest,

00:36:21.660 and then that exposes you to all these potential calamities that we just described.

00:36:26.320 And that's a big risk.

00:36:28.180 But it's not nearly as big a risk as never getting what you want and need.

00:36:32.840 And that is definitely the alternative.

00:36:35.380 And that's a pathway to bitterness and cynicism and a wasted life.

00:36:38.900 And bitterness and cynicism, that's just where that starts.

00:36:42.380 It gets way worse as it compounds.

00:36:45.380 And so, it's very useful to treat yourself like you're someone you're responsible for helping.

00:36:54.840 And it is very useful to compare yourself to who you were yesterday,

00:36:58.300 not to someone else's today.

00:37:00.480 There's no way of interacting with someone, including yourself,

00:37:06.960 that's more productive than to give targeted reward where credit is due.

00:37:13.200 To give credit where credit is due.

00:37:15.320 And you might say,

00:37:16.200 Well, how can I treat myself well, given that I'm nothing but the embodiment of serpentine,

00:37:23.300 what would you call it, errors and sins?

00:37:26.280 And the answer is,

00:37:27.260 Well, if you're a little better than you were previously, that's something.

00:37:34.280 Really.

00:37:34.980 And maybe that's what you want to see in your kids, right?

00:37:37.440 I mean, you don't want to push them too far.

00:37:39.000 You don't want to punish them if they haven't made huge leaps forward developmentally.

00:37:43.980 What you want to see is incremental progress that requires some effort.

00:37:49.380 And that's actually what your kids really love too.

00:37:51.300 You know, if they're playing hard, they're on the edge.

00:37:53.840 They're pushing themselves to develop their skills.

00:37:55.960 Maybe they're playing a sport.

00:37:57.220 They're pushing themselves to move incrementally at the optimum rate.

00:38:01.280 That's another thing that play indicates, by the way.

00:38:03.420 And that's so cool to know too.

00:38:05.260 Play signals that you're pushing yourself forward at the optimal rate.

00:38:09.260 Because you can't stay static, and you can't absorb too much change at once.

00:38:13.540 How do you know when it's right?

00:38:15.100 Well, it's engaging, it's meaningful.

00:38:17.420 But at the highest level, it's something like play.

00:38:20.280 You know, when kids, when you're playing a sport,

00:38:22.720 you want to play against someone who's approximately the same level of skill as you.

00:38:26.480 Or maybe a little beyond, right?

00:38:28.160 If you're playing a game with someone who's approximately your equal,

00:38:31.540 then you're pushing each other exactly enough to facilitate optimal movement forward.

00:38:36.400 And that's actually a very good conceptual scheme for apprehending the nature of a marriage.

00:38:44.560 So I found out from Ben Shapiro, interestingly enough,

00:38:47.700 that there's a translation in the King James Bible of God's description of Eve before he makes her.

00:38:57.280 It says, the King James Version says that God says he's going to make Adam a helpmeet.

00:39:04.120 And that's an archaic word, right?

00:39:06.160 No, you don't call your wife your helpmeet, generally.

00:39:09.420 Or you're going to get a slap, probably, if you do.

00:39:11.820 But my point is, it's an archaic term.

00:39:15.200 The biblical language means something like beneficial adversary.

00:39:21.180 And that's very nice, you know.

00:39:23.420 It's very nice because a beneficial adversary would be someone that you're pushing against

00:39:29.280 and that's pushing against you exactly the right amount.

00:39:32.140 And there's this phenomenon that's known neurologically called opponent processing.

00:39:38.660 And a lot of the manners in which we make difficult and calibrated decisions

00:39:46.200 neurologically involves two systems working in counterposition to one another.

00:39:51.800 So imagine I want to move my hand smoothly, as smoothly as possible.

00:39:55.360 That's pretty smooth.

00:39:56.980 But I'm shaking a little bit, and it's a bit jerky.

00:40:00.120 So I'm using voluntary systems to move my hand, and they're a little imprecise.

00:40:05.960 If I want to move it perfectly, I go like this.

00:40:10.560 And then I can calibrate it unbelievably precisely.

00:40:14.220 And that dance that you have with your partner, that's what that's supposed to be.

00:40:19.580 Optimized opponent processing.

00:40:21.300 So imagine why.

00:40:22.600 It's like, it's the same as free speech in some real sense.

00:40:25.940 It's a manifestation of the logos, that optimized adversarial process.

00:40:31.200 Why?

00:40:32.420 Well, think about it this way.

00:40:33.800 Imagine you have a child, or you have three children.

00:40:37.260 They're all quite different, because children tend to be quite different,

00:40:40.680 even if they're born in the same family.

00:40:42.540 And so then you might ask yourself, well, how should we treat our children?

00:40:45.980 And the answer is, well, they're different.

00:40:49.540 So is there a rule?

00:40:52.400 And there are some guidelines and principles.

00:40:58.980 I had one in my book, don't let your children do anything that makes you dislike them.

00:41:02.700 That's a good rule to turn to.

00:41:06.300 How do you know if you're not being a tyrant?

00:41:09.560 You know, your children act up, and they annoy you.

00:41:11.780 Maybe you're just mean.

00:41:15.080 Or maybe they never annoy you, but they annoy everyone else.

00:41:19.240 In which case, you're not mean enough.

00:41:22.020 And I mean that definitely, because if your children never annoy you,

00:41:27.080 but they annoy everyone else,

00:41:29.880 then they won't have any friends.

00:41:32.340 And then they're in real trouble.

00:41:36.260 But your children are different.

00:41:37.740 So how do you know how to calibrate your response to them?

00:41:40.080 And the answer is, well, you push back and forth against your wife or your husband.

00:41:45.260 And you, you know, maybe want to use a bit more encouraging,

00:41:48.460 and want to use a bit more sheltering.

00:41:50.660 That's often the masculine versus feminine roles,

00:41:53.800 although that can intermingle, you know.

00:41:55.700 But generally, those are associated with justice in some sense and encouragement

00:42:00.420 with masculinity and mercy and tenderness with femininity,

00:42:04.300 probably because women have to care for infants.

00:42:07.080 And so they tilt more towards that end.

00:42:09.300 In any case, you have to calibrate that for each kid.

00:42:14.560 And the only way to do that is to push against each other, right?

00:42:17.580 Because how else are you going to do it?

00:42:18.820 There's no rule, and it's a dynamically changing situation.

00:42:22.180 And you're too clueless and blind on your own to do it properly.

00:42:26.480 But maybe the two of you, ironing out each other's kinks in some sense,

00:42:30.820 in this constant dance, oriented as you might be

00:42:34.420 to the optimal development of your children, who you hypothetically love,

00:42:37.860 maybe you can calibrate a moving target by pushing on each other back and forth.

00:42:42.480 And maybe if you do that optimally,

00:42:45.720 then it manifests itself as something like play.

00:42:49.980 And you know that happens, because you take your kids out.

00:42:52.260 Hopefully this happens at least sometimes.

00:42:54.720 You take your kids out to the beach or something like that,

00:42:57.700 and you have a great day.

00:42:59.440 And what does that mean?

00:43:00.620 Well, it means you got the balance right, right?

00:43:02.460 Because there's some freedom, and there's some principles, there's some rules.

00:43:06.900 It's a game, and everything comes together in the right place at the right time.

00:43:12.660 And you think, that was a good day.

00:43:14.000 And you think, yeah, every day could, could every day be like that?

00:43:16.500 And maybe that's too much to ask for every day, but it's something to aim for,

00:43:22.420 and something to try to foster, and it's something to know consciously, you know,

00:43:26.840 that that playful engagement, that's a marker of the highest form of being.

00:43:36.700 So that's three rules.

00:43:37.920 So, we could talk a little bit more about,

00:43:43.140 do not let your children do anything that makes you dislike them.

00:43:47.300 That's a tricky one.

00:43:48.840 And people are afraid of their children, especially modern people,

00:43:52.420 because they're afraid that they're going to interfere with their,

00:43:55.680 the flowering of their creative potential, or something like that.

00:43:59.400 And fair enough, you know,

00:44:01.000 because there is something remarkable about the potential that you see in children,

00:44:05.360 but they're also, you know, wild and unconstrained in their activity.

00:44:11.660 And so, that possibility has to be harnessed in some sense.

00:44:18.080 And I think the right way, again, to conceptualize that,

00:44:20.580 is not so much that the child is moving outward and trying to be creative and free,

00:44:26.480 and all society does is constrain that in some sort of patriarchal or tyrannical manner.

00:44:32.640 I think that's a suboptimal solution.

00:44:34.520 I think what you do instead is you channel that creative possibility

00:44:41.640 into something like well-regulated games.

00:44:45.120 And a game has to operate by principles,

00:44:48.120 and has to have a certain degree of predictability, right?

00:44:50.180 So there's some order there.

00:44:52.120 But if you have your disciplinary routines optimized,

00:44:55.780 then much of what governs the household is something like play.

00:45:00.500 And I can make a technical case for that.

00:45:05.240 So, children of two years old, they really can't play with other children.

00:45:10.980 And by the time a child is two, he can or she can do something like play with a truck, right?

00:45:16.160 It's a very abstract thing to do, because a little toy truck, that's not a truck, right?

00:45:20.400 That's a representation of a truck.

00:45:22.140 And when the child is playing at driving the truck, they're not driving a truck.

00:45:27.420 They're formulating a very complex representation of the world and acting out a potential role.

00:45:33.420 It's very sophisticated.

00:45:34.360 When a girl plays with a doll, too, she's not playing with a baby, obviously.

00:45:39.260 She's practicing doing that.

00:45:40.800 And that's very sophisticated.

00:45:42.800 But two-year-olds, they really can't play together.

00:45:46.500 And the great developmental psychologist, Jean Piaget, made much of this.

00:45:50.040 He was a real genius, because Piaget was the first person who really understood

00:45:53.980 that the proper basis of social order is play.

00:45:58.740 And that the reason children play is because they're practicing taking their optimal place in the social order.

00:46:05.400 It's crucially important.

00:46:06.640 And then any social order that isn't predicated on the spirit of play is suboptimal.

00:46:11.940 And that's also very much worth knowing.

00:46:13.760 You know, if you're a business person, a good one, you pretty much only want to enter into business arrangements

00:46:19.000 with people who can play, fundamentally.

00:46:22.100 Because otherwise, you have to connive, or use force, or, you know, get paranoid about whether or not

00:46:27.220 they're holding up their end of the bargain.

00:46:28.920 And it's so dull, and it's counterproductive.

00:46:31.820 What you really want is you want to have something to offer, something valuable.

00:46:35.600 And you want to go to someone, you say, look, this is what I've got.

00:46:38.380 And they say, well, this is what I've got.

00:46:39.720 And then you say, well, look, if we put the two things we've got together,

00:46:43.540 here's a bunch of things we could do that would really be good,

00:46:46.160 and that would be good for both of us, and in a way that we couldn't do apart.

00:46:49.940 That's a pretty good deal.

00:46:51.060 So it's probably worth a bit of time and effort.

00:46:53.360 So back to the two-year-olds.

00:46:55.400 They can't play together.

00:46:56.500 So maybe you put two two-year-olds in a room, and maybe they both want to play with the truck.

00:47:02.060 They'll fight.

00:47:03.360 And maybe one wants to play with the truck, and one wants to play with a doll, let's say.

00:47:06.840 And then they'll play side by side.

00:47:08.980 And if you're a casual observer, you think the kids are playing together.

00:47:12.100 But they're not.

00:47:12.600 They're just in the same room.

00:47:14.100 They're not playing together until they're playing the same game.

00:47:17.940 And that really doesn't start to happen until they're about three.

00:47:21.380 And when they're about three, and this is where pretend play really starts to dawn,

00:47:24.820 mutual pretend play, they'll do things.

00:47:27.600 They engage in dramatic play.

00:47:28.820 They'll do things like a boy and a girl.

00:47:30.180 They'll say to each other, do you want to play house?

00:47:33.640 It's a pretty bloody fundamental question when it gets right down to it.

00:47:37.100 You're going to be asking women that for the rest of your life, badly or well.

00:47:42.080 And you might not know that that's what you're doing.

00:47:46.500 And in which case, you're probably doing it badly.

00:47:48.800 But that is what you're doing.

00:47:51.600 And so kids are practicing that.

00:47:53.800 And the rule is the girl has to want to play.

00:47:56.760 That's a good rule.

00:47:57.620 You could stamp that on your forehead.

00:47:59.180 The girl needs to want to play.

00:48:02.300 And in any case, at about three, kids start to be capable of negotiating a shared play space.

00:48:14.060 And by the way, just to be clear about that, that's no different than negotiating an identity.

00:48:20.360 This idea that identity is something you define subjectively and then can impose on other people,

00:48:25.860 that's what two-year-olds think.

00:48:28.000 And that's what the kind of two-year-old who stays unpopular for the rest of his or her life thinks.

00:48:33.580 And now we're making that law.

00:48:36.320 That's not very wise.

00:48:44.540 And then the other way that you can tell that's two-year-old behavior is that if I don't accept the identity that you're imposing me on subjectively,

00:48:52.880 you'll have a tantrum.

00:48:54.500 It's like, yeah, I knew you were two and now you just proved it.

00:48:57.700 And I'm actually kind of sad about this because one of the things I have noticed as a clinician is that a lot of this emergent identity confusion

00:49:07.540 that particularly characterizes adolescents, and at the moment particularly adolescent young women,

00:49:13.600 is likely a consequence of stymied childhood play.

00:49:18.500 You know, it's awful and it's causing a lot of trouble, but it's also, there's something about it that's really sad.

00:49:26.220 In any case, at three, a child who's developing along an optimal trajectory is now capable of asking,

00:49:34.280 of inviting someone else to play.

00:49:36.520 Someone at about their developmental level, and if they're optimally skilled,

00:49:41.060 which means in part that they have parents who haven't paved the pathway for them to misbehave, right?

00:49:48.000 Have taught them to some degree about how to take turns, and how to be careful with each other.

00:49:53.440 Then, at three, they're ready to play with other children.

00:49:58.200 And then what happens if they're optimized play partners is that they make friends.

00:50:04.220 And then the friends socialize them.

00:50:07.280 So, parents are not the primary source of socialization after the age of about four.

00:50:14.620 Peers are.

00:50:15.100 That's partly why adolescents are so absolutely obsessed with what their peers think of them.

00:50:20.240 Which is appropriate, even though it can go too far.

00:50:22.940 It's because your peers are going to make up your society, right?

00:50:26.760 As you all mature together.

00:50:28.320 And you have to adapt to the circumstances of your peers.

00:50:31.200 And the parents should pave the road for that adaptation.

00:50:34.400 But you make friends, and then your peers play with you, and they socialize you optimally.

00:50:39.840 And if that doesn't happen by the time you're four, then it never happens.

00:50:47.020 There's a huge psychological literature on this.

00:50:50.960 If you're alienated from your peers at age four, as far as we know, there's nothing that can be done to fix that.

00:50:57.800 You're permanently alienated.

00:51:00.260 And so you're already in jail, in some real sense.

00:51:02.840 And then that just gets worse as you mature.

00:51:05.520 That's one pathway to life, long-term criminality.

00:51:10.280 Aggressive two-year-old, male usually, doesn't get socialized between the age of two and four.

00:51:14.900 Because aggressive males are harder to socialize.

00:51:17.720 Doesn't make friends?

00:51:18.900 Done.

00:51:19.980 And the reason seems to be that, well, imagine that at four you need to start making friends.

00:51:25.840 And because you make friends, you start to develop more and more social sophistication.

00:51:30.360 But then imagine you don't make friends.

00:51:32.500 You're already so far behind that you don't make friends.

00:51:35.300 And now all your peers are skyrocketing forward.

00:51:38.200 And so you just fall farther and farther behind.

00:51:40.300 And you get more alienated and still using two-year-old aggression to solve your problems.

00:51:44.940 And more bitter and more cynical and more jaded, more isolated.

00:51:49.200 And, of course, that's not going to do wonders for your popularity.

00:51:52.300 And so it's a very bad positive feedback loop.

00:51:55.660 And it starts very early.

00:51:57.900 In any case, why should you not let your children do anything that makes you dislike them?

00:52:03.240 Well, first of all, let's say you is the wife and the husband together.

00:52:08.040 Right?

00:52:08.560 Because if your kid annoys you, well, maybe you're having a bad day.

00:52:11.960 Or maybe, you know, your father was too tyrannical to you.

00:52:15.240 And you have some of those proclivities.

00:52:16.640 Or maybe on the more maternal side, you're willing to let your kids run roughshod all over you.

00:52:23.380 And not to stop them.

00:52:25.600 But the two of you together, you might ask each other,

00:52:29.520 Hey, honey, that kid's annoying me.

00:52:32.080 Is that kid annoying you?

00:52:33.140 It's like, yeah, as a matter of fact, that kid's annoying me too.

00:52:35.620 It's like, well, either we're both crazy in the same way.

00:52:39.440 Now, you're both crazy.

00:52:41.640 But are you crazy in the same way?

00:52:43.700 Now, so that's probably not.

00:52:45.580 So if you're both thinking something together,

00:52:48.960 there's a reasonable probability that the two of you are right.

00:52:53.240 And so then you can think, well, if this kid's driving us crazy,

00:52:56.440 given that together we're not out of our minds, hopefully,

00:53:01.700 if he's driving us crazy, then he's probably not going to be very popular with anyone else.

00:53:07.460 And then that's a good time to think, well, do we want an unpopular and miserable child?

00:53:12.400 And the answer might be yes, you know, because sometimes they won't leave home.

00:53:17.640 And if you have no other purpose in life than to devote yourself entirely to a dependent child,

00:53:24.580 then crippling them socially is a really lovely way to attain that.

00:53:29.580 And if you don't think that happens,

00:53:31.620 then you're the sort of naive person who will eventually run into someone malevolent

00:53:36.080 and learn just how naive you are.

00:53:38.340 And so in any case, you know, you have a responsibility with regards to your children

00:53:43.640 to not let them do things that make you dislike them.

00:53:48.020 And if they're doing things that make you dislike them,

00:53:51.140 despite the fact that you love them,

00:53:53.320 you can imagine the effect that's having on other people.

00:53:55.620 And you've got to ask yourself, too, like,

00:53:58.040 how do you want your children to be treated when they go out in public?

00:54:00.960 You know, most people will give children the benefit of the doubt.

00:54:04.900 One of the things that was so lovely, I lived in this,

00:54:07.180 I lived in Montreal when I first had young kids.

00:54:10.460 And I lived in a rough neighborhood.

00:54:12.540 It was very, it was a working class neighborhood.

00:54:15.020 It was quite poor.

00:54:16.640 Most of the people were uneducated in sort of multi-generational way.

00:54:20.260 It was a rough neighborhood.

00:54:21.120 And we had Michaela, my daughter,

00:54:24.700 and we used to zoom around in her stroller.

00:54:27.900 And it was so fun because you'd see these rough guys walking down the street,

00:54:31.220 you know, tough-looking guys.

00:54:33.300 You'd give them a bit of a berth on the street, generally speaking,

00:54:36.560 and they'd just break into a smile and, you know,

00:54:39.440 coochie-coo her.

00:54:40.400 And it brings out the best in people.

00:54:42.500 It's so lovely to see that.

00:54:43.760 It's one of the things that you don't know before you become a parent

00:54:46.140 is that you become a parent,

00:54:47.700 you enter this little club of other parents that you didn't even know existed,

00:54:51.460 but you also get to see the best of people in a way you never did before.

00:54:55.240 And that's lovely.

00:54:56.240 And so, people are willing to give your children the benefit of the doubt.

00:55:01.060 You want to facilitate that by having your child act in a manner

00:55:05.240 that heightens the probability that that's how people are going to act towards them.

00:55:12.100 And then instead, you know, a misbehaving child,

00:55:15.540 I've had plenty of experience with this sort of thing,

00:55:17.780 in all sorts of ways,

00:55:19.220 a misbehaving child lives in a world of adult falsity.

00:55:23.140 Because nobody really wants the child around.

00:55:25.840 And so, everywhere they go, there are forced and strained smiles

00:55:28.720 and bare tolerance.

00:55:31.240 That's a little bit of hell, that is.

00:55:33.240 And the alternative is, well, your child is properly socialized.

00:55:37.960 And everyone's happy to have them around.

00:55:41.020 And then wherever they go, everyone's happy to have them around.

00:55:43.160 And then they make friends.

00:55:44.220 And adults are much more likely to interact with them in a positive way.

00:55:47.480 And that's what you're, you want to give that to your kids.

00:55:50.720 Well, unless you want the other outcome that I described.

00:55:55.320 You know, or maybe you're jealous of your children because you're old and you're bitter.

00:55:58.380 You know, and you see your child flourishing in some way that you didn't get to.

00:56:03.540 And you want to knock that the hell out of them.

00:56:05.980 And that's another pathway to take too.

00:56:08.660 But, you know, that's a good little trip to hell.

00:56:14.940 If you want to embark down that road.

00:56:18.080 Here's another rule.

00:56:18.900 Pursue what is meaningful, not what is expedient.

00:56:24.740 This is also a great thing to know, I think.

00:56:27.600 That's a tricky rule.

00:56:30.000 Expedient might be, we're going to have a conversation.

00:56:33.940 And I want something from you.

00:56:37.620 And a lot of conversations are like that.

00:56:40.640 You know, because you have a goal in mind.

00:56:42.160 This is what I want from this person.

00:56:44.660 And so then you craft your conversation to get what you want, right?

00:56:48.880 You subordinate your words to your, to the ethic of your desire.

00:56:54.760 And you might say, well, what's wrong with that?

00:56:57.280 Well, what do you know about what you want?

00:56:59.960 Like, haven't you been wrong about that before?

00:57:04.340 And you might say, well, what's the alternative?

00:57:06.440 Well, is there an alternative?

00:57:07.820 Well, you have to get, want something from the person to even interact with them.

00:57:11.300 It's like, no, you could want to see what happens.

00:57:16.160 You could want to play.

00:57:19.200 You could tell the truth.

00:57:21.460 That's an interesting thing to do.

00:57:23.260 Because you don't know what's going to happen if you tell the truth.

00:57:25.440 That's for sure.

00:57:26.520 You could let go of what you want and just say what you think.

00:57:29.960 And you could presume, and this is an act of faith too, that the truth does set you free.

00:57:36.820 And that the truth that's spoken properly makes out of possibility the order that is habitable and good.

00:57:44.300 And then you could just tell the truth.

00:57:46.400 And you could see what happens.

00:57:48.340 And that would be an adventure.

00:57:50.180 And that's better than expediency.

00:57:52.300 Partly because maybe you're wrong about what you want.

00:57:55.900 You know, and you know that because you're kind of narrow and maybe narrowly self-serving from time to time.

00:58:02.720 And your purview of the world isn't as wide as it could be.

00:58:05.760 And you're a bit bitter, so you tend to be that narrowly selfish because of that.

00:58:09.980 So you want something from a conversation.

00:58:12.400 And you bend and twist it to get it.

00:58:14.560 It's like, fine.

00:58:15.260 But maybe you'll get something you don't want.

00:58:20.440 Or worse, you'll get something that's positively bad for you.

00:58:23.960 That happens a lot.

00:58:25.780 And so part of the reason there's a deep moral injunction to tell the truth in a religious sense is because there's a hypothesis behind that.

00:58:39.020 Which is, there isn't anything better that can happen to you than what will happen to you if you tell the truth.

00:58:46.120 Now, that might be hidden from you because sometimes if you tell the truth.

00:58:49.500 And I don't mean to blurt everything out carelessly.

00:58:51.840 Like, this is a sophisticated thing to do.

00:58:54.000 It's not careless.

00:58:55.300 It doesn't mean just say any old thing that pops into your head.

00:58:59.980 You have to be judicious with the truth.

00:59:01.860 But the notion would be, if something emerges as a consequence of engaging truthfully, and it doesn't seem to be going your way, wait.

00:59:13.360 There's more to the story to unfold.

00:59:15.260 Because, like, how do you know if it goes your way or not?

00:59:17.600 Like, over what time span are you calculating this?

00:59:19.900 Because sometimes things can go pretty badly initially and then much better as they progress.

00:59:24.920 And lots of times the truth has that effect.

00:59:27.880 Because, you know, you reveal something that's maybe disturbing or shocking even to yourself and others.

00:59:35.660 And it causes waves, especially if it's a deep truth.

00:59:39.200 And that destabilizes everything.

00:59:41.060 It's like, yeah, but maybe that's preferable to a false peace.

00:59:48.680 You can't find out if it's true without doing it.

00:59:51.360 You're not going to gather the evidence beforehand.

00:59:53.080 So that's the true side of it.

00:59:55.760 Meaning.

00:59:56.400 Pursue what's meaningful instead of what's expedient.

00:59:58.500 It's another hint, like the spirit of play, about the pathway.

01:00:04.200 The yin and yang symbol.

01:00:05.440 You know, the famous symbol.

01:00:06.380 It's two serpents.

01:00:07.260 One black, one white.

01:00:08.540 Head to tail.

01:00:10.100 Inside the black serpent, there's a white dot.

01:00:12.500 And inside the white serpent, there's a black dot.

01:00:15.060 And the representation is something like,

01:00:17.640 the world of your experience is made up of chaos and order.

01:00:20.220 And order is where you are when things are going according to what you want.

01:00:25.560 And chaos is everything that can come in and disrupt that.

01:00:28.980 And both of those can be positive and negative.

01:00:31.260 Too much order, tyranny.

01:00:33.220 Right?

01:00:33.440 Too much chaos, nihilistic uncertainty.

01:00:36.760 Optimized balance.

01:00:39.200 So let's think about what the optimized balance would mean.

01:00:42.020 You have a structure of perception and conception that you inhabit.

01:00:50.060 It's orderly.

01:00:51.820 Reasonably orderly.

01:00:53.060 Orderly enough so that when you inhabit it,

01:00:55.460 most of the time things are going the way you want them to go.

01:01:00.560 But things change and shift.

01:01:05.140 And you don't know everything you should know.

01:01:06.920 So you can't just stay where you are with a good thing.

01:01:10.120 You have to expand.

01:01:12.220 And as you expand, you move out of the domain of order into the domain of chaos.

01:01:16.800 Or out of the domain of actuality into the domain of possibility.

01:01:20.920 And then you might think,

01:01:22.100 well, how do you know when you're doing that optimally?

01:01:24.320 Well, one marker, as I said before,

01:01:26.880 may be that you do it in the spirit of play.

01:01:29.120 But another is, and this is so much worth knowing,

01:01:32.960 things get meaningful.

01:01:36.120 You know, people ask, does life have any meaning?

01:01:39.140 It's like, why is anything worth doing if in four billion years

01:01:42.420 the sun is going to envelop the earth?

01:01:45.180 And the answer to that question is, that's a stupid question.

01:01:50.320 And I can prove that in some sense.

01:01:52.680 It's like, you're a mother and your baby's crying.

01:01:56.320 And so you're going over there to do something about it.

01:01:59.120 And someone comes along and says,

01:02:00.720 why do you care if that baby's crying?

01:02:02.780 You know, in four billion years the sun is going to envelop the earth.

01:02:07.060 And what's the right response to that?

01:02:09.020 It's like, it's something like, go away.

01:02:12.240 Are you out of your mind?

01:02:14.520 And the answer to that question is, yes.

01:02:18.260 You are out of your mind.

01:02:19.580 Of course you can find a time frame or a spatial frame of reference

01:02:25.440 that makes everything you do pointless.

01:02:28.040 You know, it's like, what is this going to matter in 20 trillion years?

01:02:33.020 Well, it's like, the only proper response to that is that's not a wise time frame.

01:02:39.020 Imagine you're in a concert, you know, listening to some great music,

01:02:43.820 and it's got you, you know.

01:02:45.820 And someone taps you on the shoulder and you know,

01:02:47.480 this is going to come to an end.

01:02:50.260 And what's your response?

01:02:51.820 Like, go away.

01:02:53.700 And that's the right response to that voice in your head

01:02:56.220 that does those things to you.

01:02:57.720 Which says, you know, you're engaged in something

01:03:00.300 and a nihilistic thought comes out.

01:03:01.720 Well, what's the point of this?

01:03:03.020 Given, you know, how unbearable the world is

01:03:05.400 and the current political situation

01:03:06.840 and the fact that we're inhabiting some ball of dust

01:03:09.600 on the edge of some fringe part of the cosmos

01:03:11.680 and that everything's dead and material.

01:03:13.540 It's like, get thee behind me, Satan.

01:03:17.100 Right?

01:03:18.120 Really.

01:03:19.780 It's not a mark of wisdom.

01:03:27.860 It's not a mark of wisdom to let nihilistic, demonic voices

01:03:31.820 steal your joie de vivre.

01:03:33.720 That is not a mark of wisdom.

01:03:35.920 And you might object, well, at least it's not naive.

01:03:39.000 It's like, yeah, cynicism might be preferable to naivety,

01:03:42.700 but it doesn't hold a candle to wisdom.

01:03:45.920 And that's worth knowing too.

01:03:47.880 Because once you've been hurt and you're cynical,

01:03:50.020 there's no going back to naive.

01:03:52.360 But there's no point in staying at cynical.

01:03:55.080 And there are degrees of courage way beyond cynicism.

01:03:58.660 And some of that is the regaining of the faith you had

01:04:01.240 as a child despite your current level of wisdom.

01:04:05.480 And that's something to strive for, right?

01:04:07.400 That's a moral attainment.

01:04:08.940 That's not a burying your head back in the sand.

01:04:11.480 Quite the contrary.

01:04:13.140 And so, well, back to the yin and yang symbol.

01:04:18.400 Imagine you have an instinct that orients you.

01:04:21.300 Well, you do, as a matter of fact.

01:04:26.100 There's a reflex that's replicated at multiple levels of your nervous system.

01:04:31.480 And it's ancient.

01:04:33.060 If you have a nervous system as an animal, you have this reflex.

01:04:36.900 And the reflex is something like surprise.

01:04:40.080 You know, if I walk across the stage and I hear a loud noise behind me,

01:04:44.060 I might go like this.

01:04:45.460 And that would be automatic because I'm gripped by unconscious systems.

01:04:48.840 And what's happening is some chaos has emerged.

01:04:52.680 And it stops me in my tracks because something unexpected happened.

01:04:56.660 My current plan is incomplete.

01:04:58.680 And then I'll turn and orient towards the place of the disturbance.

01:05:03.020 And that's the beginning of exploratory behavior.

01:05:05.340 And then I might run away, which might make me safe.

01:05:07.980 Or I might cautiously investigate,

01:05:11.480 in which case I can find out what caused the disturbance,

01:05:14.700 maybe rectify it, and maybe update my plan

01:05:16.920 so that that sort of thing doesn't happen again.

01:05:19.260 That's a better approach.

01:05:21.600 In fact, that's the optimal approach.

01:05:24.340 That's also the meaningful approach.

01:05:27.500 And so, here's something to know.

01:05:29.660 If you're engaged in something,

01:05:31.900 and it's infusing you with a sense of meaning,

01:05:35.920 then your nervous system is signaling to you

01:05:38.880 that you've optimized the balance between stability and transformation.

01:05:44.860 And that manifests itself in the sense that you're in the right place,

01:05:48.840 at the right time, doing the right thing.

01:05:51.060 And it's not conceptual, right?

01:05:53.380 It's not abstract.

01:05:55.600 It's not a theory.

01:05:57.140 It's an embodied sense.

01:05:59.860 And you might say,

01:06:00.760 well, I don't know what that sense is exactly,

01:06:03.180 but it's the sense that you have

01:06:05.200 when you're engrossed in a piece of music.

01:06:07.840 And what's music?

01:06:08.880 Well, it's principled and somewhat predictable patterning,

01:06:13.600 spiced with unpredictability,

01:06:15.700 creative unpredictability.

01:06:17.260 And if it's optimized, it grips you.

01:06:19.640 And it's a representation.

01:06:21.220 It's a representation in some sense of optimal being.

01:06:24.420 And it's so interesting that that's the case,

01:06:26.500 because it does grip us,

01:06:27.600 no matter how nihilistic you are.

01:06:29.260 Something I always liked about punk rock.

01:06:30.840 I was a teenager when the Sex Pistols

01:06:33.720 first emerged on the scene.

01:06:35.780 And they were very interesting to me,

01:06:37.820 because their music is so nihilistic,

01:06:40.060 and it's so meaningful.

01:06:41.420 And that's such a weird combination.

01:06:43.380 It's like, because the overt lyrics are,

01:06:45.340 well, just smash everything to hell,

01:06:47.080 and anarchy everywhere.

01:06:48.340 But, you know, there's a great beat,

01:06:49.800 and everybody's dancing away.

01:06:51.560 It's like, and even the skinheads who were anarchic,

01:06:54.800 they would dance.

01:06:55.720 I mean, they'd smash into each other,

01:06:57.440 and there was often blood.

01:06:58.560 But it was a kind of dance.

01:07:01.260 It was better than nothing.

01:07:02.920 That's for sure.

01:07:04.020 And that's why they went to the concerts.

01:07:05.900 And so, to be imbued by that sense of meaning,

01:07:08.220 even in their nihilistic anarchism,

01:07:10.200 they were still engaged in that,

01:07:13.480 the sense of meaning that music produces.

01:07:15.720 And it does put you back to the Inan Yang symbol.

01:07:18.720 It puts you right in the middle of chaos and order.

01:07:21.780 And that's the right pathway.

01:07:22.880 That's the Tao, by the way, for the Taoists.

01:07:25.180 It's the pathway that runs between chaos and order.

01:07:28.060 And it's signaled to you by the sense of engrossed meaning.

01:07:32.600 And then you could say to yourself,

01:07:34.240 you ought to stake your life on something, eh?

01:07:37.080 One way or another.

01:07:38.160 Because you have to move forward in ignorance.

01:07:40.480 So you're always making a decision about what you're going to take on faith.

01:07:44.140 I don't care what you're doing.

01:07:46.100 You have to make that decision.

01:07:48.240 Well, what if you staked your life on the intrinsic value of sublime meaning?

01:07:55.820 How would that be?

01:07:57.200 Well, you'd have to act it out to find out.

01:07:59.700 But you do get hints, you know,

01:08:01.160 if you're gripped by something beautiful, it does that.

01:08:03.280 Something artistic that's deep.

01:08:04.600 If you're gripped by literature that stretches you, it does that.

01:08:08.240 A movie that engrosses you does that.

01:08:10.820 Almost everything you do that's entertaining does that.

01:08:14.020 When you're at a sports event

01:08:15.540 and you're watching someone stunningly skilled do something incredibly difficult,

01:08:20.540 that puts you in the same place.

01:08:22.300 That stretches you out and produces this intimation of meaning.

01:08:26.580 And then you might say as well,

01:08:27.840 and this would be lovely if it was true,

01:08:29.340 and I do think it's actually true,

01:08:31.000 which is really quite something,

01:08:32.240 is what's the best antidote to pain?

01:08:35.280 And you might say, well, pleasure.

01:08:39.440 It's like, yeah, that's not going to be forthcoming that much when you're in pain.

01:08:45.760 And so, and then pleasure per se has its own vices, let's say.

01:08:51.400 That's for sure.

01:08:52.920 How about meaning as the antidote to pain?

01:08:56.120 How would that be?

01:08:57.980 Then you might think, well, where do people find meaning?

01:09:00.300 Well, they certainly find it in aesthetic pursuits,

01:09:02.740 in artistic pursuits, in the domains of literature and art, beauty, all of that.

01:09:07.660 But people also find meaning in responsibility.

01:09:11.140 And that's something we've forgotten to a degree that's almost incomprehensible.

01:09:16.100 You know, if you're ever really ill, which you will be.

01:09:20.000 If you're ever really in pain, which you certainly will be.

01:09:23.220 If you're ever faced with hellish circumstances, which you certainly will be.

01:09:28.060 You might ask yourself, well, what do you have under those circumstances?

01:09:32.820 And maybe if you're fortunate, you have someone to play with.

01:09:36.300 And maybe if you're fortunate, you have the meaning of your responsibilities.

01:09:41.640 You know, and even if you're the sinner who's produced the hell that's around you.

01:09:45.500 And you can say to yourself, yeah, but you know, I've been a good servant to my wife.

01:09:48.960 And I've been a good father to my children.

01:09:51.520 And my family's been a credit to the community.

01:09:53.640 And I've taken on some community responsibilities to try to set the broader world around me right.

01:09:59.740 And I've shouldered my civic duties.

01:10:02.560 And as far as I've been able to, I've been a good person.

01:10:06.840 Then maybe while you're suffering, you don't have to scourge yourself with all your sins at the same time.

01:10:13.900 And that's something, man.

01:10:15.560 And maybe in that situation, that's all you're going to have.

01:10:18.860 And that might be the difference, not only between life and death, but between hell and life.

01:10:25.940 Because there are worse things than death.

01:10:28.380 That's for sure.

01:10:30.260 And so...

01:10:30.860 And so then imagine if it was the case that you could have what you needed and wanted.

01:10:45.900 And you could say, well, play is the antidote to tyranny.

01:10:51.680 That'd be lovely.

01:10:52.760 And meaning is the antidote to pain and cynicism and bitterness and social discontent and discord.

01:10:59.680 And so then your life could be meaningful play.

01:11:03.920 Maybe you can come up with a better optimistic proposition than that.

01:11:08.860 And if you can, good for you, really.

01:11:14.420 But that's not a bad vision, you know.

01:11:18.720 And you can test it out.

01:11:20.240 One of the things I used to do with my clients, this is real useful too.

01:11:24.680 And it's sort of done in the spirit of necessary humility.

01:11:28.980 So imagine your life isn't everything it could be.

01:11:31.480 That's generally not that hard to imagine.

01:11:34.160 But then I also imagine that there's some variation, you know, week to week.

01:11:37.540 Is that maybe you're pretty damn miserable.

01:11:39.800 But sometimes you're unbelievably miserable.

01:11:41.940 And sometimes you're just sort of miserable.

01:11:44.240 And that's not great.

01:11:45.480 But at least there's some variability.

01:11:48.020 One of the things you might do as a clinician.

01:11:51.360 Or as a friend or as a partner.

01:11:54.160 Is say, well, exactly what are you doing when you're less miserable?

01:11:59.400 And what are you doing when you're more miserable?

01:12:01.620 Don't think about it.

01:12:04.320 Watch.

01:12:05.440 Like you're watching someone you don't know.

01:12:07.880 This often happens with depressed people.

01:12:10.260 So one of the problems with depression is it's a positive feedback loop, eh?

01:12:14.480 Because you get depressed.

01:12:16.080 And then you stop seeing your friends.

01:12:18.260 And even if you're introverted, there's friends you want to see.

01:12:21.220 At least one-on-one.

01:12:22.200 At least now and then.

01:12:23.500 So now you start to isolate yourself.

01:12:25.240 And then you get more depressed.

01:12:26.920 And then you isolate yourself more.

01:12:29.200 And then you get more depressed.

01:12:30.080 It's downhill spiral.

01:12:32.400 You know, it's not good.

01:12:34.020 A lot of forms of mental illness are positive feedback loops that spiral out of control.

01:12:39.320 So one of the things you might do with a depressed person, they come to see you.

01:12:42.240 If you're a therapist, you might say, look, just for the next week or two weeks or so, I want you to just keep a mood record.

01:12:49.840 You know, maybe check in with yourself every hour, scale from one to ten.

01:12:53.420 And just write down how depressed you are, with ten being suicidal and one being as good as you get, let's say.

01:13:02.740 Or maybe even life is worth living.

01:13:04.600 And maybe the depressed person never gets, you know, below six or something.

01:13:08.240 But six is way better than ten.

01:13:10.720 And then they come back and you look and you think, oh, look.

01:13:12.860 Every time you were at six instead of ten, you were with this particular person or this set of people.

01:13:21.360 Or maybe you're working in your garden.

01:13:23.460 Who knows, right?

01:13:24.340 Or maybe if you're artistic, you were doing something artistic despite the fact that you're paralyzed by your depression.

01:13:29.860 But notice your mood improved.

01:13:32.320 Some.

01:13:33.140 And then look.

01:13:34.200 Ten out of ten depressed.

01:13:36.780 You're alone in your room in bed.

01:13:38.940 It's like eleven in the morning.

01:13:40.760 It's like, okay, so how about this?

01:13:43.540 Next week, don't be alone in your bed at eleven o'clock in the morning.

01:13:48.240 And spend like twenty percent more time, or ten percent, or two percent, with your friends.

01:13:54.140 Or doing something that seems to improve, not your mood, but your state of being.

01:13:59.980 And then play with that.

01:14:01.600 And see, you know, can you tilt yourself, gradually and incrementally, comparing yourself to who you were yesterday.

01:14:08.060 Can you tilt yourself in the right direction?

01:14:12.180 And then, well, that's for depressed people.

01:14:14.040 You might say, well, could you do that in your life?

01:14:16.340 And the answer is, yes.

01:14:20.260 So, the Egyptians worshipped this god, Horus.

01:14:25.780 H-O-R-U-S.

01:14:27.720 And Horus, you know Horus, weirdly enough.

01:14:30.580 Everyone knows that famous Egyptian eye.

01:14:33.700 You know, with the arched eyebrow.

01:14:35.700 And you know, on the back of an American dollar bill, you have an eye that's separated from the pyramid.

01:14:40.580 That's Horus as well, interestingly enough.

01:14:43.140 That's the gold cap on a pyramid.

01:14:45.100 It's the aluminum cap on the Washington Monument.

01:14:47.940 Aluminum was more precious than gold when they built the Washington Monument.

01:14:51.240 The top of a pyramid is the gold cap.

01:14:53.760 And the gold cap is the eye.

01:14:55.920 And what's the eye?

01:14:57.380 The eye is the thing that pays attention.

01:15:00.300 And so, Horus was the eye.

01:15:02.120 And he was the eye that could see evil and rectify it, by the way.

01:15:06.220 And he was also a falcon.

01:15:08.620 And the reason he was a falcon is because a falcon is a bird of prey that flies above everything.

01:15:13.880 And it can see.

01:15:15.180 And birds of prey, they can see better than us.

01:15:17.360 We're very visual animals.

01:15:18.740 We have the second best visual systems of any animal.

01:15:22.960 Birds of prey see better than we do.

01:15:25.360 They can see clearer and farther.

01:15:27.880 A falcon.

01:15:29.780 If a falcon was on top of the Empire State Building, he could see a dime on the pavement below.

01:15:35.200 They're unbelievably sharp-eyed.

01:15:36.540 And the ancient people knew this.

01:15:38.280 They hunted with birds of prey and they watched them.

01:15:41.100 They knew they had spectacular vision.

01:15:42.740 And so, they used the falcon as an image of redeeming vision.

01:15:48.680 And they associated redeeming vision with the sun setting and rising.

01:15:54.200 Because the sun shines when you can see.

01:15:57.020 And so, that's a solar god.

01:15:59.140 And that's the hero that fights the dragon at night and it comes up victorious in the morning.

01:16:03.360 A very old idea.

01:16:04.520 That's all associated with vision.

01:16:06.300 And vision pays attention.

01:16:08.900 Assume that the person you are listening to might know something you don't.

01:16:13.120 That doesn't mean everything you don't.

01:16:15.400 And that might mean hardly anything at all.

01:16:17.160 But maybe you could glean something.

01:16:20.020 And because you're clueless and confused, anything you glean might be useful.

01:16:24.420 And so, it's useful to attend.

01:16:27.520 Like, in a manner that's infused with humility.

01:16:33.880 Why humility?

01:16:35.920 Because you need to know that what you don't know is more important than what you do know.

01:16:39.840 That's a hard thing to learn.

01:16:41.080 Because you want to fortify what you know, man.

01:16:43.840 Because it feels protective.

01:16:45.220 And it's very threatening to move on the periphery of what you know.

01:16:50.560 But there's a lot of what you don't know.

01:16:52.640 A lot.

01:16:54.080 And you need to know it.

01:16:55.460 And what attitude do you need to bring to bear on what you don't know?

01:16:59.240 It's like, pay attention.

01:17:00.320 There might be something there for you.

01:17:02.780 And so, then you attend to yourself.

01:17:04.660 And that ties us back up to the first rule.

01:17:06.600 Which is, treat yourself like you're someone who you might be responsible for helping.

01:17:12.580 Well, what does that mean?

01:17:13.800 Like you don't know who you are.

01:17:16.560 Because you don't.

01:17:18.640 As if you're someone made in the image of God.

01:17:23.040 Let's say.

01:17:24.020 Someone, despite your flaws of divine intrinsic value.

01:17:27.920 Who could hypothetically be a light on the hill.

01:17:31.580 Hard as that is to believe.

01:17:34.040 And then watch.

01:17:35.860 And see.

01:17:36.700 When you're where you should be.

01:17:40.460 And maybe you're only a bit of the way there.

01:17:42.480 You know, and it's, you're kind of, huh.

01:17:45.740 Your life is hell to purgatory.

01:17:47.820 That's it.

01:17:48.900 There's very little glimpse of paradise.

01:17:50.460 But purgatory beats the hell out of hell.

01:17:53.460 And so, maybe you can move from hell into purgatory.

01:17:55.760 That would be something.

01:17:56.720 And maybe when you're there, now and then, you're getting a little bit beyond that.

01:18:00.460 You think.

01:18:01.060 You know, right at this moment.

01:18:03.180 For whatever reason.

01:18:06.320 I'm not doing something so terrible that I'm in hell.

01:18:09.460 What is going on?

01:18:13.880 What's the circumstance?

01:18:15.280 What did I allow to happen?

01:18:18.020 That made this possible?

01:18:20.640 It's a form of awakening.

01:18:23.120 In the most profound sense.

01:18:24.700 To notice.

01:18:26.220 When that happens.

01:18:27.080 Then you think.

01:18:27.960 Could I be there more often?

01:18:30.940 One percent more often.

01:18:32.480 That compounds very quickly.

01:18:35.620 You know.

01:18:35.880 If it's one percent a week for a year.

01:18:37.780 You're going to be there like twice as long in a year as you were before you started.

01:18:42.920 And God only knows how good you could get at that.

01:18:45.080 If you didn't do anything other than that.

01:18:47.780 Let's say.

01:18:48.420 If you really committed to that.

01:18:50.140 God only knows what your life could be like in five years or ten years.

01:18:54.060 Maybe you could be in that state all the time.

01:18:56.420 And who knows what effect you'd have on you.

01:19:00.180 And your family.

01:19:01.440 And the people around you.

01:19:02.480 If you were in that state.

01:19:04.020 And that's something worth thinking about too.

01:19:06.000 And maybe that's a good thing to close.

01:19:07.740 You know.

01:19:08.740 We have this notion.

01:19:10.380 Developed not least in your great country.

01:19:14.600 That people have an intrinsic worth.

01:19:17.120 That we're sovereign citizens.

01:19:18.340 That we're all possessed of a voice that redeems the state.

01:19:22.860 That's why we have an inalienable right to free speech.

01:19:26.700 Let's say.

01:19:27.860 Because we're a necessary corrective to the blindness.

01:19:31.680 And archaic nature of the state.

01:19:35.040 We're the living eyes of the dead king.

01:19:38.100 And maybe that's really true.

01:19:40.440 Then you think.

01:19:41.120 Well if the world isn't everything you want it to be.

01:19:43.920 I set your house in perfect order before you criticize the world.

01:19:47.860 If the world isn't everything that you want it to be.

01:19:53.400 Maybe you're not acting the way you should.

01:19:56.840 You know.

01:19:57.100 Because there's some intimation in our deepest ideas.

01:20:00.400 That the weight of the world rests on your shoulders.

01:20:03.620 Now that's a terrible thing to think.

01:20:07.380 But maybe it's true.

01:20:09.540 And it's an open question.

01:20:11.360 How much of the mess that you see around you.

01:20:14.380 Would vanish.

01:20:16.380 If the mess that you could.

01:20:19.380 Put straight.

01:20:20.980 Was put straight.

01:20:22.020 And you know.

01:20:23.940 You know.

01:20:24.200 You know this too.

01:20:25.120 To some degree.

01:20:25.840 Because.

01:20:27.020 To the degree that you've not become entirely embittered.

01:20:29.640 And cynical.

01:20:30.260 And hopeless.

01:20:31.180 You know perfectly well.

01:20:33.020 That if you put your mind to it.

01:20:34.520 And you make the proper sacrifices.

01:20:36.060 There are things you can set straight.

01:20:38.220 And that if you do that diligently.

01:20:39.840 Things actually improve.

01:20:41.960 And so.

01:20:42.720 Because otherwise.

01:20:43.360 If you didn't believe that.

01:20:44.220 You wouldn't act at all.

01:20:45.100 Like.

01:20:45.840 Well maybe you just turned to.

01:20:47.440 Completely catastrophic.

01:20:48.720 Short term.

01:20:49.600 Impulsive pleasure.

01:20:50.380 Or something like that.

01:20:51.780 You have to believe that your action.

01:20:53.720 Has some.

01:20:55.260 Redemptive possibility.

01:20:57.020 Because why would you do it otherwise.

01:20:58.900 And you might say.

01:20:59.860 Well I kind of believe that.

01:21:01.000 It's like.

01:21:01.280 Well.

01:21:01.660 That's not good enough.

01:21:02.840 You know.

01:21:03.160 You kind of got to throw yourself all into it.

01:21:06.060 And what's the cost anyways.

01:21:08.460 You know.

01:21:09.400 It's not like you're going to get out of this alive.

01:21:12.460 So you're pretty much all in.

01:21:14.100 Whether you want to be or not.

01:21:15.760 And maybe if you were voluntarily all in.

01:21:18.620 Things would be a lot better.

01:21:19.880 Than they are.

01:21:21.060 And that's an exciting thing.

01:21:22.340 To try to find out.

01:21:23.780 You know.

01:21:23.960 If you allowed yourself to be guided.

01:21:25.560 By the intimation of meaning.

01:21:27.560 And I mean.

01:21:28.100 To find.

01:21:29.400 On your terms.

01:21:30.600 In some real sense.

01:21:32.280 If you.

01:21:33.600 Swore.

01:21:34.020 That you do your best.

01:21:34.900 Not to use deceit.

01:21:36.300 And instrumental manipulation.

01:21:38.220 If you decided.

01:21:39.340 That you were going to put things straight.

01:21:43.620 What do you think might happen?

01:21:44.900 And I'll close with one observation.

01:21:48.980 I read something very terrifying.

01:21:50.980 By one of my.

01:21:53.520 One of the thinkers.

01:21:54.440 Who've influenced me the most.

01:21:56.020 Carl Jung.

01:21:56.620 The great Swiss.

01:21:58.400 Analytic psychologist.

01:22:00.500 He said something very interesting.

01:22:02.280 At the end of World War II.

01:22:04.360 Apprehending the.

01:22:05.620 Terrible specter of the atom bomb.

01:22:07.020 And the unbelievable destructiveness.

01:22:09.580 Of the.

01:22:10.160 The second world war.

01:22:13.280 He said.

01:22:16.840 Two things.

01:22:18.020 One was.

01:22:20.320 We'll be more.

01:22:21.320 Most threatened in the future.

01:22:22.620 Not by natural disasters.

01:22:24.040 Or even sociological disasters.

01:22:25.740 In some sense.

01:22:26.540 But by.

01:22:28.440 Pathologies of the.

01:22:29.820 Psyche.

01:22:30.380 By pathologies of the spirit.

01:22:32.500 Because we become so powerful.

01:22:34.340 That.

01:22:35.040 Our proclivity.

01:22:35.960 Towards unnecessary.

01:22:37.180 Insanity.

01:22:38.120 In some sense.

01:22:38.900 Poses the greatest threat to us.

01:22:41.440 And I think that's true.

01:22:43.500 And he also said something.

01:22:45.600 That's even more terrifying.

01:22:47.780 He said.

01:22:48.880 Any unconscious conflict.

01:22:50.220 That you don't make conscious.

01:22:51.240 And resolve.

01:22:51.780 Will be played out in the world.

01:22:52.920 As fate.

01:22:55.860 So let me unpack that for a minute.

01:22:57.820 Imagine.

01:22:59.060 You're a man.

01:22:59.820 Or a woman.

01:23:00.480 And.

01:23:01.420 You've got something against.

01:23:03.820 The opposite sex.

01:23:05.120 You know.

01:23:05.400 You're.

01:23:05.520 You've got an animus.

01:23:07.540 Against women.

01:23:08.340 Or.

01:23:09.460 You've got a bad attitude.

01:23:10.520 Towards men.

01:23:11.140 You think the men deserve it.

01:23:12.660 And when you interact with them.

01:23:13.880 They act in a way that.

01:23:15.080 Makes it look like they deserve it.

01:23:16.500 Same on them.

01:23:18.680 With regard to women.

01:23:20.140 Then maybe you have this experience.

01:23:21.480 Where.

01:23:21.760 You have the same bad experience.

01:23:23.520 With like five women.

01:23:24.440 Or five men.

01:23:26.300 It's those men.

01:23:27.260 It's those women.

01:23:27.960 It's like.

01:23:28.300 Well what's the probability of that.

01:23:30.580 Let's say there's five.

01:23:31.640 And you.

01:23:32.040 That's six.

01:23:33.100 It's a one in six probability.

01:23:34.520 That it's them.

01:23:35.980 And a five in six probability.

01:23:37.340 That it's you.

01:23:38.880 And what is it in you.

01:23:40.360 I mean.

01:23:40.860 Unless all women.

01:23:41.800 Are all women.

01:23:42.820 In some sense.

01:23:43.480 Are warped the same way.

01:23:44.820 Or all men.

01:23:45.920 If you keep bumping into them.

01:23:47.740 The same way.

01:23:48.920 It's possible.

01:23:49.800 That you're just bumping into your own blindness.

01:23:52.780 And you better hope that's true.

01:23:54.320 Because if it's women.

01:23:56.320 And they're giving you a rough time.

01:23:57.940 What are you going to do?

01:23:58.940 There's a lot of women.

01:24:00.020 If it's you.

01:24:01.320 Hooray.

01:24:02.020 You might be able to.

01:24:02.920 You might be able to rectify that.

01:24:05.080 And so you might say.

01:24:05.840 Well you have an unconscious conflict.

01:24:08.220 A complex.

01:24:09.160 In relationship to people of the opposite sex.

01:24:11.820 That's true for almost everyone.

01:24:13.980 And if you don't make that conscious.

01:24:16.100 You act it out.

01:24:17.320 You know.

01:24:17.540 Maybe get more irritated at certain things.

01:24:19.520 Than a reasonable person would.

01:24:21.140 And that starts a whole chain reaction.

01:24:22.840 Who knows how it's going to manifest itself.

01:24:25.940 If you made it conscious and resolved it.

01:24:28.300 It'd go away.

01:24:30.520 Okay.

01:24:31.080 So now we're in a situation.

01:24:32.360 Where things are starting to teeter around us socially.

01:24:34.840 As everyone can feel.

01:24:39.200 Well how catastrophic.

01:24:41.360 Is that going to be?

01:24:43.480 How catastrophic are we willing to let it be?

01:24:47.220 How catastrophic.

01:24:48.300 Do we want it to be?

01:24:53.160 To teach us what we won't learn voluntarily.

01:24:57.440 I would say.

01:24:58.300 Well we're going to find out.

01:25:00.140 And here's a question.

01:25:01.140 You could ask yourself.

01:25:03.720 If you let enough of an internal catastrophe.

01:25:06.620 Strip you of all your inadequacies.

01:25:09.840 Maybe you don't need an external catastrophe.

01:25:12.340 To teach you the lesson.

01:25:13.320 Thank you very much.

01:25:17.600 Jordan Peterson's ready to come back on stage.

01:25:44.320 Yep.

01:25:45.060 Here he is.

01:25:57.260 Nice chairs.

01:25:59.200 Hey.

01:26:01.040 Okay.

01:26:01.860 Let's see here.

01:26:03.600 What are your views on a united Ireland?

01:26:06.780 There's more to it.

01:26:14.460 With Brexit.

01:26:16.540 And Sinn Féin.

01:26:18.960 Sinn.

01:26:20.160 Sinn Féin.

01:26:21.980 Gaining influence both north and south.

01:26:24.180 It seems a border pull is inevitable soon.

01:26:27.280 The first thing I would say is that I'm too, I have too low resolution a representation of the situation in Ireland to wade into that abyss casually.

01:26:41.060 And I think that dispensing casual advice politically is not, even though I'm known to do it from time to time on Twitter, is probably not optimal.

01:27:01.960 Well, situations like that are extraordinarily complex and they're very difficult to diagnose and comprehend and mend.

01:27:13.620 It isn't even obvious to me that that can be done in some real sense from the top down.

01:27:19.940 And to render an opinion on a situation like that is to imply in some real sense that it can be accomplished top down.

01:27:28.480 You know, that there's a solution.

01:27:31.000 And in some real sense, you know, I've had to make a choice between politics and psychology my whole life because I have political interests.

01:27:41.940 But always when push came to shove, I was much more interested in the individual and the psychological than the political.

01:27:48.680 And I think that's where my answers are best focused.

01:27:53.220 You want peace?

01:27:54.640 We want unity.

01:27:55.960 Why?

01:27:56.440 Well, not at any cost.

01:27:58.480 Because unity in forest is tyranny.

01:28:02.640 And that's not peace.

01:28:04.600 That's subjugation.

01:28:12.980 But peace requires unity.

01:28:16.480 Obviously, because peace is the opposite of conflict.

01:28:19.660 But peace is conflict resolved, not conflict suppressed.

01:28:24.800 Or conflict ignored.

01:28:28.480 And then the question is, how do you make peace?

01:28:32.000 And I believe that the answer is the age-old religious answer in some sense.

01:28:38.460 That you make peace with yourself.

01:28:41.180 And then you make peace with your wife or your husband.

01:28:43.680 And then you make peace with your children and your parents.

01:28:46.640 And you learn how to do that.

01:28:49.160 And maybe if you get good at that, which is very, very difficult to do, then maybe you're the sort of person who can start to make peace in your community.

01:28:58.740 See, I do believe that, in a real sense, that each of us is a center of the world.

01:29:13.380 I mean, the world's a strange place.

01:29:15.040 And God only knows how it's constituted.

01:29:16.820 And you might think, well, I just exist on the periphery.

01:29:19.140 You think that of yourself.

01:29:20.040 I'm not one of the powerful people.

01:29:21.520 It's like, my suspicions are that there's plenty of things right in front of you to put right.

01:29:28.500 And that might even be more the case if you're in relatively straightened circumstances.

01:29:33.780 The problems that are right in front of you are plenty.

01:29:37.720 And if you address them, that wouldn't be nothing.

01:29:42.420 Not at all.

01:29:43.860 It might be key.

01:29:46.880 I think it is key.

01:29:48.140 And so, of course, a united Ireland would be wonderful in some abstract sense, given that unity is the precondition for peace.

01:29:55.420 But I think the most fundamental battles are, they're psychological and spiritual.

01:30:02.700 They're not political.

01:30:04.000 And I don't think that political can stay out of the pathological unless the fundamental victories are psychological and spiritual.

01:30:14.140 And that's why I don't talk to crowds.

01:30:20.700 You know, I talk to individuals in the crowd.

01:30:24.800 And that works just fine because the crowd's made up of individuals.

01:30:29.040 And I believe that in the most fundamental sense that redemption is an individual matter.

01:30:34.600 It has to be undertaken with the community in mind.

01:30:37.120 But a peace is something you establish within your own heart.

01:30:46.240 So.

01:30:54.240 So I evaded that question successfully.

01:31:01.120 What's Rinaldo like to meet?

01:31:03.520 Well, I talked to him for about two hours.

01:31:12.340 He said he had started listening to my lectures about four months ago when some trouble arose around him.

01:31:20.620 Not of his making.

01:31:22.740 Just a tragedy.

01:31:24.300 Just.

01:31:24.580 And we talked about his team.

01:31:32.660 It's like being stuck in a Ted Lasso episode.

01:31:36.920 We talked about his team.

01:31:38.960 We talked about what he wants.

01:31:41.980 He wants to end his career.

01:31:44.000 I don't think I'm talking out of school.

01:31:46.220 He wants to end his career the way that it's always progressed.

01:31:51.760 Which is with dignity and grace and at a high level of skill.

01:31:55.340 And he's hoping he has a few more years left in him.

01:31:57.980 He's obviously dedicated himself to a tremendous degree to making sure that he is the best at what he does.

01:32:05.420 And being able to maintain that.

01:32:07.640 And he's done that for a very long time.

01:32:09.460 And he's the sort of person, as far as I can tell, that has accomplished that because he did it.

01:32:15.140 And so, it was, we had a great time.

01:32:21.440 And it was a pleasure to meet him.

01:32:22.780 And it was very forthright of him to post his picture with me, as reprehensible as I am.

01:32:30.700 And so, it's a great privilege, you know.

01:32:34.600 If you have any sense, when you meet people who are accomplished, you should be thrilled.

01:32:42.480 If you have any sense, you know.

01:32:46.900 Because, well, who the hell are you?

01:32:51.580 To not be thrilled.

01:32:53.480 And so, I was thrilled.

01:32:54.900 And I've had an opportunity to meet lots of great people.

01:32:57.700 And, you know, I take that seriously.

01:33:00.480 And just as I take talking to all of you.

01:33:03.120 And watching you.

01:33:04.100 And listening to you seriously.

01:33:05.900 So, it was great.

01:33:07.020 Thank you.

01:33:12.480 There seems to be a growing population of people sick of the woke left, but are instead becoming radicalized in the other direction.

01:33:25.240 What would you say to them?

01:33:28.140 Yeah.

01:33:28.920 Well, I am trying to say things to them in some real sense, you know.

01:33:32.980 I spent a lot of time in the United States working with Democrats, trying to pull them to the center, let's say.

01:33:40.520 Away from the radicals, with some success.

01:33:44.960 And in recent months, I've been talking more to conservatives.

01:33:50.100 And conservatives are very good at implementing.

01:33:53.440 They're very good at managing.

01:33:55.480 They're very good at acting out their traditional duties, let's say.

01:34:00.660 They're not particularly gifted on the visionary front.

01:34:06.480 It's a different temperament, you know.

01:34:07.900 The visionaries are creative people, generally.

01:34:12.460 And they tend to be more liberal.

01:34:15.340 Because being visionary and creative tilts you in a liberal direction, temperamentally.

01:34:22.640 And so, conservatives, they tend to get set back on their heels, you know.

01:34:26.220 So, they're not that articulate in some fundamental sense, often because they don't have to be.

01:34:32.140 You know, if you're a traditionalist, you don't have to articulate your tradition.

01:34:36.520 You just act it out.

01:34:37.960 That's kind of the whole point of being a conservative.

01:34:40.420 And then people come along and say, well, that's a stupid tradition.

01:34:43.800 Justify it.

01:34:44.720 And if you're conservative, you think, well, I don't know how to justify it.

01:34:50.240 We've done this for like 50,000 years.

01:34:52.720 I thought we're sort of beyond the justification, you know.

01:34:56.180 Do you know what a woman is?

01:34:57.960 It's like, I thought so.

01:35:02.340 I thought we'd settle that.

01:35:03.920 Like when sex emerged on the biological front, two billion years ago.

01:35:09.080 Apparently not.

01:35:10.100 So, the conservatives get gnawed at by the radicals, and then they get irritated.

01:35:27.000 And that's a very bad idea to irritate conservatives.

01:35:30.460 It's a very bad idea.

01:35:32.040 Because they're slow to wake up, and they're slow to respond.

01:35:34.600 But once you wake them up, you better look the hell out.

01:35:37.860 So, for all of you lefties out in the audience, it's probably like four of you.

01:35:47.380 Don't wake up the conservatives.

01:35:49.720 You'll be sorry.

01:35:52.020 The conservatives, they get set back on their heels, and then they get reactionary.

01:35:55.280 Which is what the left always says.

01:35:56.740 And they start carping about the radicals.

01:35:59.480 And that's not good.

01:36:01.260 Because then you get the situation we're in now.

01:36:03.500 Where it's, you slap me, and I slap you.

01:36:06.000 And then I punch you, and you punch me.

01:36:07.900 And, like, we're really on the brink of that at the moment.

01:36:11.280 And that's a bad idea.

01:36:14.320 And it's a positive feedback loop, you know, of the kind I talked about earlier.

01:36:18.020 That can tilt us towards a very serious end.

01:36:22.820 So, what's the alternative?

01:36:24.920 I just did a seminar with a bunch of people in Miami.

01:36:28.580 It was really fun.

01:36:30.580 Weirdly enough.

01:36:31.260 Eighteen hours on the first half of the biblical book, Exodus.

01:36:36.340 And we're going to release that November 26th with the Daily Wire Plus people.

01:36:41.240 They made it possible, which was very good of them.

01:36:44.000 It wasn't easy to get nine scholars together for a whole week.

01:36:48.060 You know, to pull people out of their lives for a whole week to do something like that.

01:36:52.880 We went through the first half of the story.

01:36:54.840 And I learned a lot.

01:36:56.900 A lot.

01:36:58.440 And one of the things I learned was Exodus means ex-hodos.

01:37:02.920 And that means the way forward.

01:37:05.900 And that's what this question is.

01:37:07.300 It's a question about the Exodus.

01:37:09.300 How do we get out of this?

01:37:11.520 And I suppose that raises the question of leadership.

01:37:18.460 What do you want in a leader in a time of trouble and in a time of increasing polarization?

01:37:25.720 And it can't be, and I'm not saying I'm innocent of this, it can't be someone who slaps back.

01:37:33.160 You know, maybe it's someone who can put up a barrier and who can say no.

01:37:37.660 But it can't be someone who slaps back because you get the tit-for-tat process going.

01:37:43.400 And that just doesn't seem like a good idea.

01:37:45.080 Yeah.

01:37:48.460 So maybe it's someone who can withstand the blows of the polarization.

01:37:54.340 But more importantly, perhaps it's someone who can tell a better story.

01:37:59.620 And so I think if you tell the right story, then people will, they'll be inspired by that.

01:38:08.960 And what we need to all pray for in some sense is that we can come up with a better story.

01:38:13.960 Here's a story I don't like.

01:38:15.320 Look, you have to be poor and miserable and cold and hungry to save the planet.

01:38:21.860 We're morally required by the magnitude of the emergency that confronts us to risk destroying our economies and throwing our social organizations into chaos.

01:38:41.280 I'm hoping that won't happen this winter.

01:38:47.220 But I think it probably will.

01:38:50.860 What's a better story?

01:38:52.580 Well, we can think about it for a minute.

01:38:54.160 You and everyone else could have what you needed and want if you did it right.

01:39:02.780 And if we all did it right, it would also serve the proper long-term interests of the natural environment.

01:39:10.020 You think, well, that can't possibly be true.

01:39:12.160 It's like, you got a better idea?

01:39:15.460 And if so, you know, more power to you.

01:39:19.040 If you've got a better idea and you can formulate it as a better story, get out there and do it.

01:39:24.300 But, you know, I spent a lot of time thinking about this.

01:39:26.760 And I think you can make a very strong case that the fastest way forward to genuine planetary sustainability

01:39:40.900 is to eradicate poverty as rapidly as we can, to give people what they need and want,

01:39:49.960 to increase their options for the future, and to presume that if we oriented ourselves properly,

01:39:57.380 there would be enough for everybody to have everything they needed to have.

01:40:03.720 And we could find out.

01:40:05.920 You know, there's a new book, which I would recommend by a man named Marion Tupi.

01:40:14.900 The title of the book is Super Abundance.

01:40:17.440 And Tupi has tracked the positive relationship between population growth and planetary wealth.

01:40:25.160 You know, because you have the Malthusian idea that the more people there are, the poorer we're going to get.

01:40:30.060 It's like, well, it doesn't look like it.

01:40:35.160 There's twice as many people as there were when I was 30.

01:40:39.180 And everyone, pretty much, is way richer.

01:40:44.500 So how'd that happen?

01:40:46.040 Tupi, who's a good economist, calculated that every baby born now,

01:40:52.080 given a linear projection of economic growth into the future,

01:40:57.500 which we could easily muck up, but assuming growth in the future is about what it's been, say, for the last 30 years,

01:41:03.380 that every baby born today will produce seven times as many resources as he or she will consume.

01:41:08.220 And that every person born is a net positive on the social and natural front.

01:41:15.060 And you might say, well, how can that be?

01:41:16.820 It's like, well, the conversion of raw resources into human ingenuity is not such a bad bargain.

01:41:22.980 And if it wasn't, none of us would be alive.

01:41:25.020 And so, maybe we don't have to be so pessimistic.

01:41:30.160 Maybe we have to try a little harder on the individual front.

01:41:33.360 Maybe we don't have to be so pessimistic, you know?

01:41:36.240 Maybe there's enough to go around, or more than enough to go around,

01:41:39.760 if we were all doing what we could be doing.

01:41:43.280 And maybe we could have our cake and eat it, too.

01:41:45.740 You know, here's a stat.

01:41:48.240 People seem to get concerned about the natural environment in their countries

01:41:53.220 once gross domestic product hits about $5,000 a year.

01:41:59.020 So, it turns out that if you make people rich, they start to care about the natural world.

01:42:04.160 And you think, well, why would that be?

01:42:05.820 Well, how about because they're not starving?

01:42:09.900 Right?

01:42:10.340 Or how about because they're not burning dung in their houses or their huts and poisoning their children?

01:42:17.820 You know, 20 million children die a year because of respiratory illnesses

01:42:20.980 as a consequence of burning substandard fuel, often dung, sometimes wood.

01:42:27.600 20 million people a year, mostly children.

01:42:33.300 It's like, we're technologically powerful,

01:42:36.200 and we're innovative beyond belief.

01:42:40.800 And we've structured our societies in a pretty sophisticated way.

01:42:45.340 Why are we so sure that we couldn't make everything as good as we could imagine?

01:42:51.820 Why are we so willing to break everything in bits,

01:42:55.040 which seems to be what we're trying to do right now,

01:42:58.720 to what?

01:43:00.740 To what?

01:43:03.500 To pretend that we're making progress on the environmental front?

01:43:07.760 To look good?

01:43:09.960 Instead of being good?

01:43:11.080 Thank you.

01:43:12.220 Thank you.

01:43:13.080 In Ireland,

01:43:23.240 that's where we are.

01:43:24.560 In Ireland,

01:43:26.120 alcohol plays a massive role in our culture.

01:43:30.100 For people moving into their 30s who struggle with binge drinking,

01:43:34.140 what advice would you give to them?

01:43:35.900 I really liked to drink.

01:43:42.460 I grew up in this little town in northern Alberta,

01:43:46.220 and my friends and I were hitting the iced vodka pretty hard by the time we were 14.

01:43:55.620 And so, it was a pretty isolated town.

01:43:59.040 It was winter for a lot of the year,

01:44:01.840 and it was a heavy drinking culture.

01:44:03.540 Now, I don't know if it was as heavy drinking a culture as Dublin,

01:44:07.440 because I've seen more passed out people here on the street than I've ever seen anywhere else in the world.

01:44:13.940 And you know, I really like your city.

01:44:15.740 It's lots of fun.

01:44:17.180 And that's the thing about alcohol,

01:44:18.980 is especially if you like it,

01:44:20.760 alcohol is real fun.

01:44:22.880 But it's a rough drug, man.

01:44:26.760 You know, alcohol is the only drug we know that actually makes people violent.

01:44:30.960 And it's pretty obvious that almost all domestic abuse and most cases of sexual assault

01:44:39.940 would just disappear if you took alcohol out of the equation.

01:44:43.520 And I did research in a lab at McGill,

01:44:46.560 and we studied the relationship between aggression and alcohol.

01:44:51.340 And one of the tasks we used was a competitive electric shock task.

01:44:55.600 It was a game, and you could mete out electric shocks to your opponent.

01:45:00.480 They were low level.

01:45:01.720 But you could adjust the intensity and the duration.

01:45:04.920 Now, you were playing against a fake opponent,

01:45:07.520 so no one got shocked.

01:45:09.500 But you didn't know that.

01:45:12.560 And when we got people drunk,

01:45:15.380 and not that drunk, not Dublin drunk,

01:45:17.480 more like English tea party drunk,

01:45:22.120 they would push the shock button longer

01:45:25.620 and turn up the duration longer.

01:45:28.100 And then we thought,

01:45:29.080 well, maybe it's because they don't know what they're doing.

01:45:31.740 You know, because alcohol,

01:45:33.300 one of the lovely things it does is make you too stupid to care,

01:45:36.540 which is something everyone wants to be.

01:45:40.060 So we had people write down how much shock they were delivering

01:45:43.300 on the assumption that if we made them conscious,

01:45:48.200 it would overcome the alcohol-induced stupidity,

01:45:51.360 and they would be less violent.

01:45:53.320 And all that happened was that

01:45:54.800 the drunk people who knew what they were doing

01:45:56.800 got even more violent.

01:45:59.480 And so, alcohol is directly responsible

01:46:03.460 for about half of cancers,

01:46:05.420 especially if you smoke.

01:46:06.860 It's a major contributor to heart disease.

01:46:09.440 As I said, it's a major contributor

01:46:11.360 on the domestic violence front.

01:46:14.020 It's really hard on you physiologically.

01:46:16.700 Because alcohol goes everywhere in the body.

01:46:18.880 It crosses the blood-brain barrier with no problem.

01:46:21.680 And so, it's very hard on you neurologically.

01:46:25.780 It's not a great drug.

01:46:27.680 And I say that with trepidation,

01:46:29.240 as someone who really loved to drink.

01:46:31.340 And I say it with trepidation as well,

01:46:33.240 because I really like your city.

01:46:35.240 It's a lot of fun.

01:46:36.860 You know, and the alcohol culture is part of that.

01:46:39.300 But it's a damn difficult devil to keep within bounds.

01:46:43.300 And, you know, teetotal,

01:46:45.120 the teetotal attitude and that kind of Puritanism,

01:46:47.500 that's the devil too.

01:46:49.340 But I stopped drinking when I was 27,

01:46:54.020 when I had kids.

01:46:55.460 I thought, I'm not going to be drunk in front of my kids.

01:46:58.720 And so, I just quit.

01:46:59.640 And I quit for 23 years.

01:47:04.420 And then I started to drink again,

01:47:06.220 because I thought maybe I'd grown up enough to handle it.

01:47:09.580 And I hadn't.

01:47:11.960 So, I quit again.

01:47:15.260 What I noticed when I was about 27,

01:47:17.880 and that's often when men start to stop drinking, by the way,

01:47:20.820 and it's usually because they start to take on some real responsibility.

01:47:24.100 I was asking myself some of the questions I discussed with you tonight.

01:47:29.120 When is my life going well?

01:47:31.000 And when am I miserable?

01:47:32.000 And one of the things I realized was,

01:47:33.300 almost all the times I did stupid things that I regretted,

01:47:37.560 I had been drinking.

01:47:39.580 And then also I found that I was writing a very difficult book at that time,

01:47:43.340 which turned into my book, Maps of Meaning,

01:47:45.200 which turned into the books that you guys are probably familiar with.

01:47:48.580 I couldn't edit and be hungover.

01:47:52.940 I would make my writing worse, not better.

01:47:55.740 And so I thought,

01:47:56.400 well, do I want to keep doing stupid things that I'm ashamed of?

01:47:59.020 And do I want to write as well as I can?

01:48:04.560 And then there was the issue with my kids, and also my wife.

01:48:09.680 I thought, no, I'd rather not do things I'm ashamed of.

01:48:12.280 I'd rather be able to concentrate on what I'm doing,

01:48:14.200 and I don't want to compromise my relationship with my kids.

01:48:17.360 So I quit drinking.

01:48:18.920 And here's another thing to know.

01:48:24.120 I also looked at what cures alcoholism.

01:48:26.740 And alcoholism treatment centers don't.

01:48:31.640 No matter what they say, no matter how they advertise.

01:48:34.680 Religious transformation cures alcoholism.

01:48:37.940 That's known among people who are purely atheistic researchers.

01:48:42.420 This has been known for a very long time.

01:48:44.620 And no one really knows how to account for that.

01:48:46.600 But it's an interesting thing to know.

01:48:49.480 But I would also say,

01:48:51.040 if all the adventure in your life is coming from drinking,

01:48:55.660 and I'm not being cynical about this.

01:48:58.980 I'm really not.

01:48:59.880 You know, I'm not being high and mighty about this.

01:49:04.040 But if the great adventure of your life comes from drinking,

01:49:07.880 you're probably not on the edge in the way you should be.

01:49:12.340 Maybe what you need if you're committed to the bottle

01:49:14.880 is a life so bloody exciting

01:49:16.880 that you don't want to drink and interfere with it.

01:49:19.540 And that does seem to be a pathway to a cure.

01:49:22.120 That's it.

01:49:35.580 That's it?

01:49:36.520 Yep.

01:49:37.520 That's it.

01:49:38.180 Thank you.

01:49:50.400 Thank you all.

01:50:05.180 Pleasure to be in your city to talk to all of you.

01:50:08.300 Thank you very much for coming.

01:50:10.160 It's very good to see you all.

01:50:12.140 You bet.

01:50:13.480 Good night, everyone.

01:50:14.380 Good night, everyone.

01:50:14.520 Good night.

01:50:20.400 Good night.

01:50:21.000 Good night.

01:50:25.120 Good night.

01:50:28.140 Good night.

01:50:28.540 Good night.

01:50:37.060 Good night.

01:50:46.420 Good night.

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - May 27, 2024

Meaning, Depression, & the Weight of the World ｜ Jordan Peterson

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