The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - March 22, 2020


My Pen of Light - Part Two


Episode Stats

Length

1 hour

Words per Minute

164.03789

Word Count

9,946

Sentence Count

692

Misogynist Sentences

1

Hate Speech Sentences

10


Summary

My Pen of Light Part 2: A Jordan B. Peterson 12 Rules for a Good Life Lecture. Episode 51 was recorded in Christchurch, New Zealand on February 20th, 2019. In this episode, Dr. Peterson talks about his experience with depression and anxiety, and gives advice on how to deal with it. He also talks about the importance of a good life lecture, and how important it is to give yourself permission to be yourself. If you or someone you know is struggling with anxiety, depression, or another mental health problem, this lecture is for you. It's a must listen, especially if you're struggling with an anxiety or depression diagnosis, or have a family member or loved one in a similar situation. I hope this episode gives you some insight into how to manage your mental health and find a way to move forward, no matter what you may be going through. Thanks for listening and Happy New Year, everyone! - Jordan Subscribe to the podcast today using the promo code JORDAN10 and get 10% off your first month with promo code Jordan10. Get up to $200 off all mattress orders at helixsleep.co/jordan10 and 10% of a monthly subscription to Basis by visiting trybasis.co and using promo code jordan10.org/jordanspondent . Get the best night's rest you can get in the new year! by becoming a supporter of the podcast by clicking the link below. You re getting 10% discount code: JORDER10 and a discount of $200 when you sign up for a month of a month. Let s Talk About It's Jordan Peterson's 12 Rules For a Better Life lecture. by clicking here. . Jordan B Peterson is a podcast about depression and Anxiety by Dr. BONUS: and Anxiety and Depression and Depression & Depression by Jordan Peterson by is a free speech by Jordan Peterson is on YouTube. Here's a FREE Speech by , here's a copy of the lecture I'm giving you the chance to listen to the full lecture I did in this episode. and get a discount on the lecture on my book, I'll be giving you all a chance to review it on my website and get $200 of a $10 discount on my new book, My Pen Of Light and more! Let me know what you think of it!


Transcript

00:00:00.940 Hey everyone, real quick before you skip, I want to talk to you about something serious and important.
00:00:06.480 Dr. Jordan Peterson has created a new series that could be a lifeline for those battling depression and anxiety.
00:00:12.740 We know how isolating and overwhelming these conditions can be, and we wanted to take a moment to reach out to those listening who may be struggling.
00:00:20.100 With decades of experience helping patients, Dr. Peterson offers a unique understanding of why you might be feeling this way in his new series.
00:00:27.420 He provides a roadmap towards healing, showing that while the journey isn't easy, it's absolutely possible to find your way forward.
00:00:35.360 If you're suffering, please know you are not alone. There's hope, and there's a path to feeling better.
00:00:41.780 Go to Daily Wire Plus now and start watching Dr. Jordan B. Peterson on depression and anxiety.
00:00:47.460 Let this be the first step towards the brighter future you deserve.
00:00:50.980 Welcome to episode 51 of the Jordan B. Peterson podcast.
00:01:00.340 I'm Michaela Peterson, Jordan's daughter.
00:01:02.540 I hope you enjoy this episode. It's called My Pen of Light Part 2 and was recorded in Christchurch, New Zealand on February 20th, 2019.
00:01:10.720 How about some good news for you?
00:01:12.780 Dad's recovering still, and I actually think he'll be back around and online in the next month.
00:01:17.900 That's a hopeful estimate, but it's been amazing to watch.
00:01:21.000 I hope you're out there staying positive given what's going on.
00:01:23.640 There's a lot of uncertainty right now, but I have a positive outlook for whatever that's worth.
00:01:27.760 China and Korea look a lot better, and I think that kind of shows us what's going to happen here.
00:01:32.020 It looks like we're in for a rough time for the next few months, and then we'll bounce back stronger than ever.
00:01:36.660 My family and my dad were self-quarantined in Florida.
00:01:40.140 We're lucky to be here.
00:01:41.140 We haven't driven each other mad yet either, or madder than we already are, that is.
00:01:46.020 So stay positive, enjoy this podcast, and if you missed the first part of this lecture, check out last week's podcast.
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00:02:23.320 I'm putting a video up on YouTube eventually about my experience with NAD, but it definitely improved my life.
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00:02:53.160 Sleep is one of the most important things we can do for our health.
00:02:56.580 I can't think very well if I don't get enough sleep.
00:02:59.360 Neither can anyone, really.
00:03:01.000 Apparently, a lack of sleep is equivalent in brain toxicity to alcohol.
00:03:05.300 This new year, I've made it a goal to increase my sleep quality, and that starts with the mattress.
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00:03:49.880 My Pen of Light Part 2
00:03:51.960 A Jordan B. Peterson 12 Rules for Life Lecture
00:03:54.840 I think I'll tell you two more.
00:04:04.820 There's quite a few of these.
00:04:06.040 There's about 30 of them, but I'm obviously not going to get through all 30.
00:04:11.400 That's just not going to happen.
00:04:13.460 But that's okay.
00:04:14.300 Let's do a couple more.
00:04:15.940 Here's one that I like.
00:04:17.580 What shall I do with a lying man?
00:04:20.620 Let him speak so that he may reveal himself.
00:04:23.980 Well, that's a free speech issue as far as I'm concerned.
00:04:29.200 And I think it's the reason that free speech is so necessary.
00:04:32.380 It's like, well, on the one hand, you know, part of the reason that speech is free,
00:04:38.920 not that it's not without cost, that isn't what it means,
00:04:41.520 is that you have the right to listen to someone else.
00:04:46.920 You know, and that's actually really useful
00:04:49.040 because you're just not nearly as smart as you might be.
00:04:51.980 And someone that you don't even like might tell you something you really need to know.
00:04:56.140 And so the Americans have really done a good job of delineating this
00:04:59.740 because they made compelled speech illegal in the United States in the 1940s.
00:05:03.960 And part of the reason for that and compelled speech was, you know,
00:05:06.840 required by the government that you use certain forms of discourse,
00:05:10.340 which was something I was objecting to when that became law in Canada a couple of years ago.
00:05:15.220 And their argument was, well, you know, none of us are as smart as we could be.
00:05:19.840 And so if there's a fair bit of public discourse, even among people who hold clashing views,
00:05:25.680 even among people who have a fair bit of enmity in their heart,
00:05:28.780 there's always the possibility that one of us will pick up some sliver of information
00:05:32.420 that turns out to be crucial.
00:05:34.060 And there's no damn way that the state should deny us the possibility that that might happen.
00:05:39.520 And so that's worth thinking about.
00:05:41.880 It's related to rule nine in my book, which is assume the person you're listening to
00:05:46.140 might know something that you don't, you know, which you don't have to do if you think
00:05:51.140 you already know everything, but which you do need to do if you think that there are some
00:05:55.600 things that you need to learn.
00:05:57.160 And then the other thing with regards to people who lie is that, well, maybe, you know,
00:06:01.520 we could say, well, there should be no fake news.
00:06:03.700 There's no lies in the news.
00:06:05.120 It's like, forget that.
00:06:06.480 That's like, that's never, ever going, it's never happened.
00:06:09.940 And it's never going to happen because, well, it's not that easy to separate the wheat from
00:06:14.700 the chaff.
00:06:15.300 And it's hard to tell if someone's willfully blind or ignorant or biased or consciously
00:06:20.020 lying or unconsciously lying or, you know, or, or, or tired that day or, or under pressure.
00:06:26.980 God only knows there's all sorts of reasons for communicating poorly.
00:06:30.540 So you can't regulate all that, but you could believe that the truth will out over time,
00:06:36.620 you know, and that what is a lie, if it's allowed to manifest itself, will become clear
00:06:43.280 to people as a lie and then to become known as a lie and then to be discarded.
00:06:49.780 And there's another section from Matthew.
00:06:53.460 I didn't really expect to read all of these sections from Matthew today, but I guess that's
00:06:57.560 how it goes, um, what shall I do with a lying man?
00:07:01.960 Let him speak so that he may reveal himself.
00:07:05.820 Ye shall know them by their fruits.
00:07:08.380 Do men gather grapes of thorns or figs of thistles?
00:07:13.240 Even so, every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil
00:07:19.360 fruit.
00:07:20.640 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit and neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good
00:07:25.860 fruit.
00:07:27.320 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire.
00:07:32.860 That's a rough one, man.
00:07:34.980 And yeah, well, it, and you see, this is true.
00:07:38.020 It's so true.
00:07:39.000 It's, it's like, God, you know, another thing you learn from doing psychotherapy, you know,
00:07:44.340 people are having a miserable time of it for one reason or another.
00:07:46.980 And, you know, maybe they're not getting along with their family.
00:07:49.360 And, and, and I'm not talking about physiological illness and bad luck, and we're going to leave
00:07:54.000 those aside.
00:07:55.040 You know, and, and you start talking about it, and you dig and you dig and you dig.
00:07:59.320 And sometimes it's months and weeks, weeks and months of digging, or maybe even years.
00:08:04.220 And then you get to, to the bottom and you find some ugly little secret, you know, that's
00:08:08.880 been part of the family maybe for a couple of generations or part of this person's memory
00:08:13.300 structure for a couple of decades.
00:08:15.480 And they finally get to the horrible bottom of it, you know, and they find out that there's
00:08:21.980 something deceptive and, and wrong, some decision they made that put their life in a bad direction
00:08:28.260 and that's caused them grief and misery ever since.
00:08:30.560 And they may have forgotten even that they've made that decision, you know.
00:08:34.420 And, and the truth of the matter is, is that when you do act in a deceitful manner, you
00:08:40.540 warp the structure of the reality around you and within you, and how could it be otherwise?
00:08:45.440 Because that's the very definition of deceit.
00:08:47.900 And then if you do enough of that, it takes your life apart piece by piece.
00:08:52.100 And that's what that phrase means, that it'll be hewn down, is that, you know, if you build
00:08:57.160 your life on, if you, if you build your house on sand, if you deceive yourself and other
00:09:03.180 people, then you will absolutely pay for that in every possible way.
00:09:08.200 And one of the things that I have learned as a clinical psychologist that certainly terrified
00:09:12.440 me, and continues to terrify me, is that you never get away with anything.
00:09:18.780 I've never seen anyone in my clinical practice, or in my life, when I really look into things,
00:09:25.140 and I can look into things quite deeply if I choose to, I've never seen anyone ever get
00:09:33.100 away with anything.
00:09:35.500 And it's not that surprising, because, like, what do you expect?
00:09:38.820 You're going to twist the fabric of reality to suit your, like, current self-interest?
00:09:45.220 And that's going to hold?
00:09:47.080 It's going to be you against the fabric of reality, and you're going to come out as the
00:09:50.920 victor?
00:09:51.580 I mean, that's, that's, well, it's, it's absurd, it's ridiculous, it's arrogant, it's self-serving,
00:09:58.000 it's naive, and besides that, no one even believes it.
00:10:01.860 So, what shall I do with a lying man?
00:10:07.780 Let him speak, so that he may reveal himself.
00:10:10.900 By their fruits you shall know them.
00:10:13.720 Yes, well, that's a very good reason for, for, for free speech.
00:10:18.520 And then this is the last one, I would say, that we'll deal with today.
00:10:22.420 How shall I deal with the enlightened one?
00:10:26.860 Replace him with the true seeker of enlightenment.
00:10:29.720 I really like that one.
00:10:31.300 It's, it's kind of a Buddhist question and answer there.
00:10:34.900 It's like, you know, now and then you, you meet someone who claims, perhaps, to be enlightened,
00:10:40.760 and, and, and maybe now and then you even think that you're that one.
00:10:46.640 And it's a mistake, because you can't be that one, because you don't know everything,
00:10:52.240 or, or worse, you hardly know anything.
00:10:55.780 And, and the more you learn, the more you know, you don't know anything.
00:10:59.820 And, and, and you also, the other thing you learn is that you can't do things only by yourself.
00:11:04.400 You know, so even if you were the enlightened one, like Buddha, even Buddha came back to help
00:11:10.220 everyone else become enlightened, because just being enlightened on his own didn't seem to be good enough.
00:11:15.880 Even if you were the enlightened one, which you aren't, you'd need other people around.
00:11:20.420 And so, and so, and so, but there is an idea of enlightenment, you know, and that it's something
00:11:25.960 we should pursue.
00:11:27.780 And so what's the idea that if you encountered the enlightened one, there's this old book called,
00:11:33.140 If You Meet the Buddha on the Road, Kill Him, which is a 60s book, which is hardly surprising.
00:11:39.140 But it, it kind of, it kind of reflects the same idea.
00:11:42.160 It said, someone who's enlightened isn't enlightened because they know.
00:11:46.700 They're enlightened because they're seeking.
00:11:50.200 It's because they know they don't know.
00:11:51.900 That's the old Socratic idea, right?
00:11:53.840 Is that Socrates was regarded as the widest, wisest person in, in Greece, because he knew
00:11:59.700 that he didn't know anything.
00:12:01.420 And, and the answer to the, the reason that that's so useful is that instead of assuming
00:12:05.620 that you know, and that's good enough, when it isn't, given that your life is a mess, and
00:12:11.360 the lives of people around you are a mess, and the world's in a mess, which means that
00:12:15.700 you don't know, because it wouldn't be a mess if you knew enough, then you could start looking
00:12:21.860 at what you didn't know.
00:12:23.760 And you could start seeking out what you, you still needed to know.
00:12:27.560 And, and you could start to spend more attention, paying, you could start to pay more attention
00:12:32.800 onto what it was about you that was insufficient and lacking, even by your own standards, and
00:12:39.680 then you could start to learn and grow.
00:12:43.400 And then by participating in that process of letting go of what about you isn't valid
00:12:49.200 and useful, and letting that die, letting that burn off, and letting what's new about
00:12:54.740 you emerge and transform continually, which is something that human beings have the capability
00:13:00.260 of doing, then you're on the pathway to enlightenment, you know?
00:13:04.420 And that in some sense is as close to enlightenment as you get, is that you're a seeker of knowledge
00:13:10.260 and not the person that holds the knowledge, which, which is why, at least in part, I'm not
00:13:15.980 a fan of ideologues, because they tend to know about five things, and then assume that the
00:13:21.660 entire world can be crammed into the space defined by those five things, and that's just
00:13:27.180 not the case. It's much better to, to adopt a questioning attitude towards the world, and to
00:13:34.560 understand that because everything isn't the way that it should be, in your life, and in your
00:13:40.440 family's lives, and in the lives of your community, that that means that you are, in some sense,
00:13:46.380 fundamentally insufficient and ignorant, and that as a consequence, what you need to do is to
00:13:52.520 admit to what's wrong, and to change, and to learn, and that that's the proper pathway forward.
00:13:59.360 And I would hope that that's what we're doing when we have conversations like this. And I'm also
00:14:06.580 hoping that the reason that these conversations, which I've had in about 140 places, as I said, now with
00:14:13.540 about 300,000 people, are actually popular, as they are popular on YouTube, because people are
00:14:19.580 realizing, noticing, hoping, that there are things they don't know, and it's important that they don't
00:14:30.040 know them, and that there are things that they could know that are also important to know, which
00:14:34.600 implies that there are important things to know, and important things to do. And that all seems to me to
00:14:40.760 be entirely correct. And so, well, and so that that's what I'm hoping that that people
00:14:51.220 will do, is that they'll, let's say, they'll ask themselves the right questions. It's like,
00:15:01.140 my life isn't what it should be. My family's life isn't what it should be, and my culture isn't what
00:15:10.920 it should be. Why? Well, maybe that's on me. Like, you're a cornerstone of your community. That's why
00:15:19.800 you vote. Our culture has decided that each of us has whatever it takes, that spark of divinity that
00:15:26.500 enables us to steer the ship of state properly, that that capacity relies on our own intrinsic wisdom.
00:15:38.460 And you know that you're responsible for yourself, and for your family, and that you could be responsible
00:15:42.620 for your community. You think, well, it's not what it should be. It's bothering me. Maybe it's bothering
00:15:49.460 me so much that I can hardly stand being alive. You know, that's despair. You think, well, what's the
00:15:56.080 way out of the despair? It's like, well, maybe I'm doing something wrong. Well, first of all, what's
00:16:04.620 the probability of that? It's like 100%. You can be absolutely certain. If you need a certainty,
00:16:11.680 there's one. There's at least one thing that you're doing wrong. There's a lot bigger list than that.
00:16:18.660 And of those things that you're doing wrong, there's probably a couple of things that you could
00:16:23.540 stop doing wrong, that you would stop doing wrong. You know, and then maybe you might ask yourself,
00:16:30.580 this is rule six, put your house in perfect order before you criticize the world. It's like,
00:16:39.140 okay, everything's not to my satisfaction.
00:16:42.180 but I'm doing some things wrong. Maybe before I complain, I'll stop doing those things wrong and
00:16:54.140 just see what happens. Maybe things will improve. And I would say, well, that's confession. That's
00:17:02.720 atonement. That's redemption. That's all of that. It's like, God only knows what your life would be
00:17:07.820 like if you stop doing the things that you knew to be wrong. It's a really good start. And it's
00:17:12.600 also the case, you know, that you stop doing the things that you know to be wrong. That's a
00:17:16.680 disciplinary practice. That's penitential chastisement. Then all of a sudden, you can start
00:17:21.220 to see the things that you should do, that you should do, that are good. And then God only knows
00:17:26.580 what you can manage. You know, I mean, one thing I learned from the 20th century, from reading 20th
00:17:31.320 century history, was that there's absolutely no limit to how much hell you can create around
00:17:35.640 yourself. That's why hell's a bottomless pit. I don't care how terrible it is where you are.
00:17:42.360 There is a stupid thing that you could willfully do, or blindly do, that would make it worse.
00:17:48.400 And so there's a hell underneath that hell, and there's another one underneath there, and there's
00:17:52.300 no bottom. And what I also learned, I think, as a consequence of that, was that the reverse was also
00:17:58.060 the case, that, you know, that the world is structured in that sort of moral hierarchy, and that as you
00:18:03.220 start to do things that are good, and put your life together, well then, the probability that you'll
00:18:08.360 do something good again, maybe better, increases, and then maybe something even better, and then maybe
00:18:15.540 something even better. And it isn't obvious to me that just as there's no bottom to hell, that there's any
00:18:20.940 top to heaven. And it seems to me that that's a, well, that's a good thing to know, and it's a good
00:18:27.560 thing to think about, whether, like, I don't know, I don't know, you have to think about it, I mean,
00:18:32.720 I don't know anybody, really, who I've ever had a serious conversation, who would deny the fact that
00:18:37.820 there isn't a situation they can be in that's so bad, that there isn't something stupid they can do
00:18:42.980 that would make it worse. I mean, virtually everyone agrees with that, and if that's the truth, then the
00:18:48.280 opposite has to be the truth, or if there's a down like that, which there clearly is, there has to be
00:18:53.640 an up in the opposite direction, whatever that opposite direction is. And I think that's why we
00:18:58.800 have to understand the world as a moral place, and as a place that is dependent for the manner in
00:19:05.400 which it manifests itself on the quality of our moral decisions. And to ask ourselves, well, if the
00:19:11.140 world isn't everything that it should be, by our own standards, and that we're desperate and unhappy
00:19:17.900 and nihilistic and cruel and resentful because of that, then perhaps the appropriate place to start
00:19:23.660 is with the kind of humility that allows you to ask the question properly, which is, well, am I doing
00:19:32.360 am I doing something wrong? And if so, God grant me the fortitude to set it right before I judge
00:19:50.160 and then to see. That's faith, you know. Do you believe in truth and do you believe in courage? It's
00:19:58.560 like, well, what happens if you manifest that in the world? Well, at least it's going to be less like
00:20:03.900 hell. That's something. And God only knows where you could end up. Well, so, that's some of the
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00:23:28.540 Okay, so now, but not for very long, because I talked longer than I was supposed to,
00:23:34.140 I'm going to answer some questions. So, John, will you set the timer again? I suppose I'm out
00:23:40.000 of question time as well already. What have we got? 20. Excellent. All right, so you've submitted a
00:23:48.880 number of questions, and so I'm going to go through them and see what I can come up with and see if
00:23:54.760 that's useful. I start a few here. This is a good one. Might as well start with this. Are you okay?
00:24:05.300 Yeah, and it's all capped, you know, so this is anonymous, and nine people upvoted this,
00:24:19.280 probably more since 723, and I don't bloody well know. I mean, sometimes I think yes, and sometimes
00:24:27.480 I think no, and I mean, I think in some profound ways no, because there's plenty I have to learn,
00:24:33.580 and plenty I have to do better. If you mean by, and then it might be political, are you okay?
00:24:40.100 It's like, well, not everybody thinks so. So, you know, and I could be wrong, although,
00:24:47.560 God, it's hard for me to believe that I'm as wrong as the people who think I'm wrong are.
00:24:51.940 And then, I guess the other issue is, are you okay? Well, I have the odd health problem,
00:25:07.140 which I'm trying to keep under control, but it seems to be working fairly well, and
00:25:10.820 I seem to be okay enough so that I can continue doing whatever it is that I'm doing. And what I'm
00:25:19.460 doing, as far as I'm concerned, is that I am trying, see, I believe that, well, and so I'll
00:25:26.540 tell you this, and then you can decide if I'm okay, because, you know, God, who knows? I believe that
00:25:32.880 the way that we look at the world, we look at the world through a story, and we can't help it.
00:25:40.580 And that's the way our psyches are structured. That's the way our cycle, that's our, that's the
00:25:46.800 nature of our psychophysiological being. There's no way out of the story, which is why we love stories
00:25:53.960 so much, and why we tell them, and why we teach children with stories, and why we watch them for
00:25:59.700 entertainment, and, and, and why we love them, because we're in a story. And if you're not in a
00:26:06.620 story, then you're in trouble, man. You're, you're, you're actually, you're just in a different kind of
00:26:11.460 story. You're in a, you're in a story about chaos, and, and, and disarray. And that's the story of the
00:26:17.160 desert. And sometimes it's the story of hell. And, and those aren't good stories. And so I don't even
00:26:22.920 think you have the option of being in a story or not. You have the option of being in a good story,
00:26:28.260 or a bad story. And a bad story can be very bad indeed. Our culture is predicated on a story.
00:26:37.100 And it sort of sits between what we know and what we don't know. You know, scientifically advanced as
00:26:43.400 we are, technologically intelligent as we are, there's an infinite amount about the nature of
00:26:49.500 being that we don't understand. I mean, God, it was what's been 10 years since we figured out that we
00:26:54.440 don't know what 95% of the universe is made of, right? A dark matter, dark energy. Like that's
00:27:01.380 actually, that's actually a fair chunk of reality to just overlook and then not notice, you know?
00:27:10.540 And so, and we also know that our scientific theories, as credible as they are, tend to become
00:27:18.440 radically revised, less rapidly now, say, in domains like physics. But I suspect there's still a shock
00:27:24.800 or two to be found there. We're in, so we have this technological knowledge, but outside that,
00:27:33.540 we're ignorant about the fundamental nature of being and the fundamental nature of reality and
00:27:38.080 consciousness. And we need a buffer between what we know and what we don't know. We need a zone that's
00:27:45.020 sort of, that we sort of know and sort of don't know. And the dream is the buffer, by the way, in
00:27:50.500 your own daily life. The dream is the buffer between what you know and what you don't know. And every
00:27:56.100 night, to maintain your sanity, you have to move from what you know, the conscious world, into the dream
00:28:02.720 world, and to re-emerge from that. And if that doesn't happen, you lose your sanity. So, in some sense,
00:28:08.900 the sanity of your consciousness is dependent on the insanity of your dreams. And the stories of our
00:28:16.360 cultures, the great underlying stories in Judeo-Christian tradition, the biblical stories in
00:28:21.420 particular, but not only the biblical stories, are the dream in which our culture is embedded.
00:28:26.880 And we've lost a relationship with those stories. And we can't. Because our sanity is predicated on
00:28:35.820 their integrity. And if we lose the stories, then, well, then we'll end up, we'll end up in a story that
00:28:42.780 none of us want to inhabit. And so, what I'm trying to do is to put the Judeo-Christian story back
00:28:50.500 underneath the substructure of Western culture. And so, I don't know if that makes me okay or not.
00:28:57.980 Probably not. But it's worked for me, and it seems to have worked for my family, and it seems to be
00:29:14.380 working for people around the world to a degree that's really quite incomprehensible. I have people
00:29:24.260 write me all the time. You know, I did a series on the Bible in Genesis a year and a half ago.
00:29:32.040 I think the first lecture, it's got about three million views. It's three hours on the first
00:29:37.440 sentence in Genesis. It takes a long time to get through the Bible if you spend three hours on each
00:29:43.240 sentence. But it's really been interesting, the consequence of that, man. You wouldn't believe
00:29:48.160 the letters I've got. I've got letters from, like, groups of Orthodox Jews in Germany, and from monks
00:29:55.700 in, like, in the Orkneys, and from lots of Muslims who are watching the Genesis stories and describing
00:30:05.220 the effects on them. And Orthodox Christians, in particular, seem to be happy with me, which is
00:30:10.000 quite a strange thing, although I kind of like their doctrine. And Catholics think that I would be a good
00:30:14.860 Catholic if I just smartened up a little bit. And Protestants, they've pretty much completely
00:30:20.060 decided that it isn't necessary to believe in God, so they're ignoring me completely. And that's fine.
00:30:28.320 But it's very interesting to see the consequences of telling these stories again and watching what
00:30:34.040 happens and to try to bring the abstraction of the story down to earth, so to speak, so that
00:30:39.800 people can understand, at least as insofar as I understand or think I understand what the stories
00:30:46.000 mean. And all of it seems to be good. I mean, it's creating an awful lot of havoc around me, especially
00:30:52.760 in the press, although that's not all that worrisome in some sense, especially because it's become
00:30:59.360 dreadfully boring and repetitive. After you've been called the full set of 30 names, several dozen
00:31:09.500 times in all possible orders, the impact decreases substantially. One of the funniest days, so to
00:31:22.540 speak, I had two funny days two years ago. It's kind of an indication of what my life was being
00:31:28.840 like. My son came home one day and I said, God, Julian, you won't believe what happened today.
00:31:35.900 He said, 200 of my fellow faculty members at the University of Toronto signed a petition requesting
00:31:45.580 that I be dismissed and my union delivered it to the administration without even notifying
00:31:52.440 me. And it was my union. You'd think they would have just politely mentioned to me that this was
00:31:57.900 being planned. And Julian said, oh, dad, don't worry about it. It was only 200 people. So yeah,
00:32:06.540 well, think about that. That was the situation at that point. It was like, well, it was just 200
00:32:11.020 colleagues. That's nothing compared to what sort of attacks you've been subject to over the months
00:32:17.020 before that. So that was funny. And then, not really. And then, and then another day, this was a good
00:32:24.200 one. Two articles, both came out in the UK press the same day. One was written by a Jewish magazine,
00:32:30.520 which accused me of being Hitler, essentially, or at least put my picture right beside Hitler,
00:32:35.740 and then talked about how I was kind of like Hitler in various ways. Not just because we were both
00:32:41.160 featherless bipeds, either. And another alt-right site, the same day, detailed out in great detail
00:32:51.860 why I was a Jewish shill. And I figured, well, that's it. That's pretty much, we've, we've pretty
00:32:58.680 much covered, covered the territory. It's like, it's like Nazi or Jewish shill. I thought, well,
00:33:05.760 you know, the only possible worst, the only worst possibility would be that I was somehow both at the
00:33:13.200 same time. And, you know, who knows? And that kind of goes back to this question about whether or not
00:33:19.180 I'm okay. I guess. So, yeah. So that's, that's that answer, I guess.
00:33:34.000 Meaning is to be found at the intersection between the known and the unknown. Do you think
00:33:38.540 this relates to early attachment, where a child's main purpose is to push the boundaries? Nikita asked
00:33:44.180 that. And the answer to that is, yes. Exactly. You got it exactly right. There is this developmental
00:33:50.700 psychologist named, now I can't remember his name, of course. He, he's a Russian. He came up with the
00:34:00.860 concept of the zone of proximal development. The second greatest development. There we go, Vygotsky.
00:34:07.360 Yes, yes, exactly. And so when you hear that people are in the zone, it's partly influenced by
00:34:13.060 Vygotsky. And the zone of proximal development is a, is a place. And it's a place that's very much
00:34:19.040 worth knowing. It's the place that the Taoists have studied forever. And I would also say that
00:34:23.440 it's the kingdom of God on earth that Christ states that is there that people don't see. I think
00:34:29.960 these are the same ideas fundamentally. The zone of proximal development. So one of the things Vygotsky
00:34:36.300 noticed was that, or, or students of Vygotsky, I can't remember precisely, was that when adults
00:34:44.000 talked to children, they tended to speak to them at a level that slightly exceeded their current level
00:34:52.080 of comprehension. Which is really a cool ability, right? Because it's not like you write out a lexicon
00:35:00.020 of your child's vocabulary and then, you know, think, well, here's 15 extra words that juniors should
00:35:05.340 learn today. It's like, you don't do, you don't know how you teach your child to talk.
00:35:10.560 You just do. And, but part of the way you do is that you, you, you don't only say to them things
00:35:18.920 they understand. You say things to them that they kind of understand, but that pull them forward into
00:35:25.020 what they don't yet know. And so that's that boundary between chaos and order, or between known
00:35:32.060 and unknown. And it's the right place to be. It's the exciting place to be. Because if you're just
00:35:37.760 where you know, then, well, first of all, that's not good because you don't know enough and, and
00:35:43.360 something's going to shift around you and reveal your ignorance and then, you know, you're in, you're in,
00:35:47.920 you're in trouble. This is a problem with tyrannies, right? They regulate everything until it's just
00:35:52.940 absolutely rigid and made out of stone. And then the ground shifts and everything collapses.
00:35:59.560 There's no flexibility. That's not good. And if you're out there just in chaos, it's nihilistic and
00:36:05.380 you have no direction, there's no order. Well, you can hardly tolerate that. It's so stressful
00:36:10.440 and so disorienting. That's no place to be, even though there's no shortage of what's new out there.
00:36:16.060 It's, it's too much. And so what you have to do is to find the boundary. And what's so cool about
00:36:22.480 this, and this is, this is truly something that's, it's a miracle of sorts, I would say. This is from
00:36:29.340 rule seven, which is do what's meaningful and not what is expedient. It's pretty damn clear, I would
00:36:37.400 say, from the mythological writing and the literary writing and the neuropsychological, neuropsychological
00:36:43.420 investigations conducted by well-qualified human neuropsychologists and animal experimentalists,
00:36:51.400 that you have a deep instinct for meaning and for that boundary. So imagine that it's good to be
00:36:59.440 where you know what you're doing. And so that's a place, that's the known. And the known, that place,
00:37:06.220 it's like you're around the campfire with your friends. That's the known. It's not the forest outside,
00:37:11.200 right? It's, it's your tribe. And, and you know that, you know where you are because you're joking
00:37:17.660 and you're laughing and you're with people and when, and you're doing things and when you do them,
00:37:22.420 they work. And so that's the known. The known is the place where when you do things, they work.
00:37:29.540 And that's kind of a funny place because we don't think of that sort of place as a place, you know,
00:37:34.820 because we think sort of geometrically, but it's a, it's a psychological place, let's say,
00:37:39.220 and it's the place that's very comfortable to be. And then there's the place you don't know.
00:37:43.540 You go to a party, it's out of your league in some manner. You don't know anyone there. And you're,
00:37:49.200 you know, you're underdressed or overdressed and you're awkward as hell. And you make a couple of
00:37:53.160 jokes and they fall flat. And you, you know, you just wish that you were not there or maybe even
00:37:58.420 dead. And, and that's the unknown. And that's where what you're doing isn't producing what you
00:38:06.140 want. And you don't want to be there, especially you don't want to be there in any radical manner
00:38:11.360 because if you're out where you don't know and you don't know enough, then it's fatal. And so too far
00:38:19.540 out into the unknown, you're done. And so the known has a certain amount of comfort and the unknown has a
00:38:27.000 certain amount of discomfort and they both have their disadvantages. One's too rigid and the other
00:38:31.340 is too chaotic. And so then the question is, what do you do about that? And the answer is,
00:38:35.460 you find that line right in the middle. That's the straight and narrow path, right? That you walk on
00:38:40.820 and there's chaos on one side and there's order on the other. And you have one foot in order
00:38:46.500 because then you're stable, you know, you're secure. You're not, you're not pushing yourself so far
00:38:52.040 that you can't tolerate it. There was another question in there about, well, how do you know if you're
00:38:56.100 taking on too much responsibility? Well, then too much chaos in your life, too much burden, you can't
00:39:01.280 handle it. And so you got to pull back because, you know, you got to be comforted to some degree.
00:39:06.220 You want to have a bit of routine in your life. Another thing that with my clinical clients, I always
00:39:10.560 insist on, it's like, look, man, if you're anxious and chaotic and nihilistic and disorganized, it's like,
00:39:16.860 put some damn order into your life. Here's some things you could try. How about getting up at the same
00:39:22.880 time every day? Just as a disciplinary strategy. Pick a time. Maybe it's three in the afternoon.
00:39:29.600 Like, I wouldn't, I wouldn't recommend that, but it's better, three in the afternoon is way better
00:39:33.840 than 11 o'clock one morning and four o'clock the next day and, you know, two o'clock the next day and
00:39:39.400 just, you can't live like that. Your brain can't even organize itself with regards to its fundamental
00:39:46.200 circadian rhythms if you don't get your sleep-wake cycles right. It's so like, pick a time to get up.
00:39:51.420 That's something. It's also something you don't have to think about anymore. You think about every
00:39:55.800 day. What time am I going to get up? It's like, Jesus, don't you have anything better to think
00:39:59.100 about? It's just like, bloody well, get up. It's eight o'clock. Get up and go think about something
00:40:03.620 else. And then maybe you could think about going to bed at approximately the same time, which isn't
00:40:08.580 as important, by the way. And then you might think, well, you could probably eat now and then on
00:40:14.540 something approximating a regular basis and maybe with some other people because we are social eaters and
00:40:20.100 people don't eat well alone. And so, you know, people kind of think you have to eat three meals
00:40:25.180 a day and, well, maybe three isn't right, but zero is wrong and 50 is wrong. So three's not bad. And
00:40:33.600 I would also recommend, which is a rule I haven't written about, which is you should do what everyone
00:40:40.100 else does unless you have a very good reason not to. Well, seriously, it's like, if you have a good
00:40:46.420 reason, you're that guy, man, you got some new idea. It's revolutionary. It's like, hey, break a
00:40:52.000 rule. Go ahead. It'll be of benefit to everyone because it's time for that rule to go. But if you're
00:40:57.060 not that guy and you're just all over the place haphazardly because you have no discipline, it's
00:41:02.940 like, you're not a free spirit or free agent or some sort of rebel. You just have no discipline.
00:41:07.640 And you stand in dangerous opposition to the stability of the state. It's like, so, and even
00:41:16.100 if you are going to have a great adventure and do some really different things, you know, like you're
00:41:20.440 going to put yourself bloody well out there on the edge, I would also say, and I learned this from
00:41:24.760 Jung, you should nail down some good habits and a lot of them, routines. Because if you're going to push
00:41:30.920 yourself really hard in one direction and risk exhausting yourself, you better make sure that you have some
00:41:36.280 comforting routines and rituals to return to so that you can reconstitute yourself when you've
00:41:43.280 gone a little bit too far out into the unknown. So anyways, you don't want to be too much in the
00:41:48.960 known because, well, you don't know everything. You need to learn some new things and you don't want
00:41:53.160 to be too far out in the unknown because it's too damn chaotic. And so you want to be in the middle.
00:41:58.740 And you can tell when you're in the middle because you're kind of secure in what you're doing.
00:42:03.660 You know, you're not overwhelmed with anxiety. That's a good sign. You're not overwhelmed with
00:42:07.700 anxiety or negative emotion. You might be a little apprehensive. You know, like when I come out on
00:42:12.080 stage, before I come out on stage, I'm a little apprehensive. And that's a good thing because if
00:42:17.120 this was, if I knew this, if it had become rote, it would have started to become dead. There'd be no
00:42:24.120 animating spirit left in it. And so a little anxiety, that's okay. It wakes you up, you know,
00:42:29.040 but not too much. Just, just enough to sharpen you up, keep you on edge. And then you want to be out
00:42:36.000 there in the unknown a fair bit, in chaos, because, well, that's exciting. You know, we're adventurers,
00:42:41.840 us human beings, right? We're, we go boldly where no man has gone before. That's what we do,
00:42:47.800 you know? We go into the unknown and we find the dragon, the dreaded beast, the terrible predator
00:42:52.820 that, that, that contains the gold. And we gather what we can from the unknown and we bring it back
00:42:58.420 and we distribute it to the community. That's what we are. And you can tell when you're doing that,
00:43:03.820 because you're in the right place on that line, the zone of proximal development, where children are
00:43:09.160 when they're pushing the boundaries, because that's what they're trying to do. Well, okay, mom,
00:43:13.540 here's a boundary. What if I break this rule? Just a bit. Well, how about this one? Just a bit.
00:43:19.160 How about this one? My son, God, he was, God, that kid, he'd find a line and he would just worry that
00:43:26.060 line to death for like two weeks. Well, can I do this? Can I do this? What about this? It's like,
00:43:33.780 push him back, push him back, push him back. Keep him, keep him solidified. My wife and I used to talk
00:43:39.700 and say, look, damn kid, getting out of control again. It's time to, time to crack down on him,
00:43:45.580 because he's, he's pushing the boundaries too much. It's like, okay, okay, what are we going
00:43:50.540 to do about this? Don't let your kids do anything that makes you dislike them. Right? That was the
00:43:55.260 rule. What are we going to do? All right, for the next two weeks. He was like two when we were doing
00:44:00.140 this, two and a half. It's like, he doesn't get away with anything. Zero. Every time he breaks a
00:44:06.380 rule, it's like we, we stop him. So we did that. And it was so weird because he was a tough kid
00:44:12.520 and he's still a tough kid. And every time we tightened up the boundary on him, he liked us way
00:44:22.300 better. It was so cool because while, you know, he was testing for, I guess, for something he could
00:44:27.680 also admire to some degree. Right? And he's two and a half. And like, if, if, if you're two and a half
00:44:33.220 and you can push your father over, there's just not that much admiration there. Right? He wants to
00:44:39.100 come up, come up against like a wall. Think, oh, look, a wall's there. Okay. Well, there's 3,000
00:44:45.120 other directions I can go in. You know, I can't go there. That's not such a big limitation. You know
00:44:51.240 how it is when kids are learning to walk. You know, they stand up underneath a table and bang. It's
00:44:58.660 like, and it's painful. And what do you, don't go buy an adjustable table. You know, you notice that
00:45:07.200 they do that like twice. And because the table doesn't negotiate, they don't do that anymore. After
00:45:16.420 twice, it's like the table is like, it's a wall. Well.
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00:46:41.160 So anyways, yes, children do find that place to push the limits. And the thing is, they want to
00:46:49.560 find the limits, you know? And the limit is partly encouragement of their continued growth, but also
00:46:55.600 the walls around them that need to be there so that they can feel secure enough to play. And you can tell,
00:47:01.540 actually, if you've got the balance between chaos and order proper in your house, then your children will
00:47:07.240 play. Because play only emerges, it's a very fragile psychophysiological process, very necessary
00:47:15.640 one, but it can be suppressed by virtually any other emotional or motivational state. And so if you've
00:47:22.080 got your house set up properly, and I do believe that this is a particularly important function of
00:47:26.720 fathers. If you've got your house set up properly, it's secure enough so that the children can risk
00:47:33.000 playing inside the house. And they really need to play. And when they're playing, they are on the
00:47:38.980 border between order and chaos. And they need that. It's what pushes their development forward.
00:47:46.600 And it's the same with us as adults. You know, we have this instinct for meaning. Say, well,
00:47:51.720 what's meaningful? Well, let's say, well, doing what you can do, that can be meaningful. But it's not
00:47:56.920 enough, because you want to stretch yourself, you know? If you're really good at your job, but it's the
00:48:00.960 same old thing every day. There's something about that that makes you feel like there's a lack.
00:48:06.380 You want to be good at it, but you want to be getting better at it. And that's that line. And
00:48:12.720 you have an instinct for meaning. And the instinct for meaning puts you there. It puts you where
00:48:17.060 you're good at something, or as good as you can be, but now you're pushing yourself beyond what you're
00:48:23.420 good at, at a rate that exhilarates you, makes you anxious enough to be awake, but keeps you intensely
00:48:30.300 engaged. And that's meaning. And that's an instinct. It's the instinct of transformation.
00:48:37.200 And it's not something arbitrary. You know, you hear, well, what's the meaning of life? It's like,
00:48:41.420 well, it's something invented. It's like, no, it's not. There's no evidence for that. The evidence is
00:48:46.600 that it's something that's discovered. And one of the things that's very interesting to do,
00:48:52.040 if you're interested in meaning, is to watch yourself for a couple of weeks, you know, and say,
00:48:56.420 well, you're kind of miserable. You're not having such a great time of it. And maybe you should find
00:49:01.400 out if you're sick, because sometimes that can contribute to that. But let's say you're not.
00:49:05.580 It's like, watch yourself. You'll find that some period of time over the next two weeks,
00:49:11.420 you'll be engaged in something. You know, time, you won't notice that time is ticking by slowly.
00:49:18.920 You'll be engaged as if what you're doing is meaningful. And who knows what it'll be. It might be a
00:49:23.380 conversation. It might be encountering someone that you love that you didn't even know you loved.
00:49:28.640 It might be reading something. It might be a video game. It might be a hobby. Who, God, it might be
00:49:34.800 shopping for clothes, cleaning up your room, messing up your room. I don't know. Whatever. But you'll find
00:49:42.800 that there will be periods of time when you're where you should be doing what you should be doing.
00:49:49.320 And that will be marked by that process of engagement. Then the trick is to notice and then
00:49:59.700 to think, okay, what the hell did I do to get here? Like, what were the preconditions? I'm in the
00:50:04.940 right place all of a sudden. I'm halfway between chaos and order. And I'm not sure how I got here.
00:50:10.460 I need to meditate on what I did that enabled me to be in this place. And now I have to figure out
00:50:16.760 how to be here longer periods of time. And then the trick is to practice so that you're there
00:50:23.120 more and more and more and more and more and more and more of the time. And then you're in the right
00:50:29.740 place at the right time. And then things justify themselves, right? Because you have that ongoing
00:50:36.040 sense of intrinsic meaning that is associated exactly with children's natural tendency to learn
00:50:42.240 and progress. And it has exactly the same function for you. And your nervous system is set
00:50:48.520 up to reward you with psychological stability and with engagement in life when you've positioned
00:50:56.560 yourself personally and socially in a place where you're making the most of what you've got
00:51:02.800 and you're getting better at it all the time. And that way you serve yourself in the optimal way
00:51:09.500 and you serve your family in the optimal way because we're social creatures. And perhaps you serve your
00:51:14.140 cultural in the optimal way. All of those things stack up nicely together because we are social beings.
00:51:19.980 And then you're in a state of harmony with the structure of the world. And it works psychologically
00:51:25.760 because it's meaningful psychologically. Constrains suffering and adds positive engagement.
00:51:31.200 And it also works collectively. And so it's a hell of a thing to know, especially when you know that
00:51:36.680 it's an instinct and not merely something that's arbitrary or constructed. Something that you can
00:51:42.040 discover if you're careful enough to attend and to notice. Not to think so much about it, but to attend.
00:51:50.720 You know, there's a difference. The Egyptians, they worshipped the eye of Horus and that was the eye that
00:51:55.680 paid attention to willful blindness and to evil. And it was the redemptive
00:52:01.180 eye as far as they were concerned. And the idea that the eye is redemptive is a very old idea. And
00:52:06.460 it's partly there because you can learn to be where you should be by paying attention. And it's not the
00:52:14.240 same thing as thinking. You pay attention first and then you think. It's like, oh look, what I'm doing
00:52:21.500 is working. There are characteristics of this place. It's a desirable place. There are characteristics of it.
00:52:29.140 There's ways I have to act in order to maintain this. What exactly are they? Well, that's a humble
00:52:34.140 question too because it means that you don't know, right? You didn't know who you were. You didn't know
00:52:38.660 that was the place you needed to be. You're not sure how to be there. But you can learn. And you set
00:52:43.540 things in order. In a kind of harmonious order. And it's an order that, well, it's the music of the
00:52:51.000 spheres. It's the proper order of the world. It's the order that music speaks of when it lays
00:52:56.680 everything out in its ordered harmony and patterns. It's why people like music. It speaks of that,
00:53:02.960 of being in that place. It's why we play music in churches, you know. And why there's something,
00:53:10.320 why there's something of religious, deeply religious significance and meaning about music,
00:53:15.260 even for people that are secular. It speaks of that possibility of order. And so, yes, that's why
00:53:22.600 children push the limits, you know. And why they need to find them as well. And also to be encouraged
00:53:28.820 to experiment with them, right? To dance on that edge. And my son got really good at it with his
00:53:34.180 pushiness, you know. Because he was one of those kids that, tough kid, he'd worry that line, worry the
00:53:40.500 line, worry the line. He wanted to know exactly what the damn rule was. Not vaguely, but precisely.
00:53:45.260 What can I get away with? You know. And we'd push back against him. And he got unbelievably socially
00:53:51.120 facile. He's very, very good with people. Because he can read subtle social cues. You know, we always
00:53:58.240 tried with him. The rule was, funny's good, but don't push it. Right? And that's a nice line, right?
00:54:06.980 To be witty, and to be playful, and to be able to tease, but not to shift over into arrogance, or cruelty, or
00:54:17.480 malicious teasing, or any of that. You get your kid on that line. It's a tight, really tight line. And then,
00:54:25.840 they're popular, and people like them, and their lives expand nicely. And hopefully, you can also stand to
00:54:33.240 have them around, which is also something that still characterizes my relationship with my son. Thank God.
00:54:39.740 So, well, guys, that's, that's pretty much, oh, I'll ask, answer one more. Have you got advice for why
00:54:55.260 young people should focus on having a family? My wife and I, 33, wish we had a kid when we met seven
00:55:01.460 years ago, rather than trying now. Well, 33 is not too bad. So, you know, good luck to you. That's the first
00:55:08.740 thing I would say. I would also say that one couple in three over 30 have fertility problems, defined as
00:55:16.640 inability to conceive when desiring to do so after one year. And that's something that no one's taught,
00:55:23.780 because our culture is blind in remarkable ways. You should focus on having a family when you're young,
00:55:33.860 if you can, because that's when you're the most fertile. So that's, that's basically that. And
00:55:40.600 fertility rates tend to decline rather precipitously, especially in women from the ages of 30 onward.
00:55:47.160 And the downhill track from 30 to 40 is pretty damn steep, you know. And you hear about assisted
00:55:53.180 reproductive technologies, but that's a hell of a road to go down. Because, you know, if you're ambivalent
00:55:59.160 about children during your 20s, and you decide at 30 that it's time to start a family, and then you
00:56:04.340 discover that you can't, and you spend several hundred thousand dollars, or at least tens of
00:56:09.440 thousands of dollars, wandering down the assisted fertilization route for like a decade, and that
00:56:15.060 doesn't work, that's roughly equivalent, I would say, in misery to having a pretty damn serious disease,
00:56:22.220 or undergoing a very bad lawsuit. It's not something I would recommend. And you know, it is the case that
00:56:30.860 life is short, that's for sure, and that you have to get things together, and get moving quickly. And so I
00:56:38.960 would say, when's a good time to have a baby? Well, never. Right? Well, obviously. I mean, of all the
00:56:48.620 stupid things you could possibly do, is to saddle yourself with a $350,000 debt, that isn't going to
00:56:57.440 leave for 18 years, right? That's going to occupy every second of your time. It's like an interferer
00:57:05.220 with your ability to make a living as well. It's like, when's a good time to do that? That? Well, never.
00:57:12.860 But on the opposite side is, well, what do you do in your life? You know, you have an intimate
00:57:22.140 relationship. You have a family. You contribute to your community, with your career, or your job,
00:57:29.100 and what you do outside of that. And that's life, man. That's your life. Those three things. Like,
00:57:36.680 you know, there's decorations on the side, there's adventure, and travel, and that sort of thing. But
00:57:41.460 fundamentally, that's that. And I would say, don't miss it. Especially with young children,
00:57:50.860 because young children, you don't have them for very long. It's not a very long period of
00:57:54.920 your life. And it's a delightful period. And if you miss it, you don't get it back. And so,
00:58:03.640 if you're 33, good luck. You know, you're not so old. You'll probably be okay. If you're wondering
00:58:14.100 whether or not you should have a child, the answer is, as I said, not if you have any sense. But
00:58:20.220 definitely, you should. Because that's life. And that's a good place to stop.
00:58:28.140 Thank you.
00:58:29.320 Thank you very much.
00:58:59.300 Thank you very much, everyone. It was a pleasure to be here in your lovely little town. I hope you get the earthquake damage all fixed up. It's terrible to see that, but maybe you'll be able to build something spectacular on the ruins. Good night.
00:59:11.000 Thank you.
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01:00:01.000 Thank you.
01:00:03.000 I'll see you.
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01:00:07.000 Bye.
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01:00:29.000 can be found at selfauthoring.com.
01:00:31.900 That's selfauthoring.com.
01:00:34.160 From the Westwood One Podcast Network.