The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - Parental Roles

00:00:00.000 All right, Mama, push! 1.00

00:00:10.000 Push.

00:00:11.000 Perfect.

00:00:13.000 One more push.

00:00:15.000 There is nothing you'll do in life that's more challenging, difficult, and rewarding

00:00:32.000 than being a parent.

00:00:36.000 Nothing with greater highs or lower lows.

00:00:40.000 Worthwhile meaning in your life is going to be found in the voluntary adoption of responsibility.

00:00:48.000 Voluntary self-sacrifice, that's the spirit of the functional psyche, family, and community.

00:00:54.000 What does it mean to be a father?

00:00:56.000 What does it mean to be a mother?

00:00:58.000 You need to know very clearly what it is that you can do for your children

00:01:03.000 in order to help them live a life that's adventurous and responsible.

00:01:08.000 I've distilled the decades of my experience as a researcher and clinical psychologist

00:01:15.000 into the lessons every striving mother or father needs to learn.

00:01:19.000 If you've ever thought about becoming a parent, or are a parent already, this series is for you.

00:01:28.000 Hello.

00:01:29.000 I sat down recently with many mums and dads to personally discuss the situations they were facing with their children.

00:01:36.000 Our 13-year-old, we spoiled the heck out of them.

00:01:39.000 My daughter came to tell us that her classmates were bullying her.

00:01:42.000 The question for me becomes, when do I pick him up?

00:01:45.000 And when do I make him pick himself up?

00:01:48.000 What lessons can you derive from today's discussion?

00:01:51.000 How do you operate effectively as a father and as a mother in today's world?

00:02:06.000 Well, you could say, if you wanted to play sex stereotype, that a mother secures and a father encourages.

00:02:13.000 You could say that a father is radically on the side of who the child could become, and a mother is more radically on the side of who the child is.

00:02:25.000 And that's a nice dynamic, because when you're dealing with a child, you have to be happy and grateful for who they are and encouraging them to be the person they could become.

00:02:36.000 Now, I think it's a mistake for the mother always to be the nurturer and the father always to be the person pushing forward. 0.92

00:02:44.000 Both parents should play both roles, but that's a good way of considering the sex differentiation.

00:02:49.000 When it comes to nurturing and snuggling, it's more my role as opposed to when it's time to play or go outside or do things like that.

00:03:04.000 That's more Nathan's department, which I find for me, it is difficult to play with my kids.

00:03:12.000 How do I sit down and play with his trucks and not feel like I should be doing something else without feeling like I should be washing dishes?

00:03:24.000 I should be putting things away.

00:03:26.000 In all likelihood, you're going to be a mother of small children for a much shorter time than you think and for a much smaller fraction of your life than you imagine.

00:03:44.000 While you have little kids, time sort of slows and it seems like it's always been that way, and it's always going to be that way, and that's not the case.

00:03:53.000 You have little kids for a very short period of time, and it is a major mistake not to notice that and to appreciate it.

00:04:02.000 It's the pathway to a future with the least regrets to understand and be grateful for the opportunity that you have to care for your children while they're little,

00:04:12.000 and to be as grateful as you possibly can for that, because it really is a privilege.

00:04:23.000 Just being a parent, nothing I was ever interested in prior to this really is worthy of my time or concern at this moment.

00:04:30.000 I don't know if that will last forever, and I'm curious about how things like my career, the things I have been doing outside of the house, relationships, other things I'm involved in, now work into our lives.

00:04:46.000 And I'm very open to the answer being, you sacrifice it.

00:04:57.000 In the first few months of life, a child has to be in very close contact with his or her mother.

00:05:03.000 It's virtually impossible to give a true infant too much attention.

00:05:10.000 In fact, I don't even know if it is possible.

00:05:15.000 As the child becomes autonomous, can start doing things on his or her own,

00:05:20.000 then you have to pull back in lockstep with the child's independence.

00:05:27.000 And you might say, well, how do you know how fast to pull back?

00:05:32.000 You really take your cues from the child.

00:05:35.000 A mother or a parent acts as a zone of security and predictability and care for the child.

00:05:42.000 And so the child uses the mother, let's say, as a place of safety and will come back for comfort, for attention.

00:05:51.000 And then we'll go out into the world and play and interact until they hit an obstacle.

00:06:00.000 And then they'll retreat to the mother to be that island of stability, security and encouragement.

00:06:06.000 And so then there's a continual dance between outward movement and retreat that the mother anchors.

00:06:13.000 And eventually the child is capable of completely autonomous life.

00:06:21.000 And then if you've handled that properly and you've been the proper balance of security and encouragement,

00:06:26.000 the child won't leave permanently because you'll establish an adult relationship with them

00:06:31.000 and then a relationship with their children.

00:06:33.000 And then you get to have your cake and eat it too.

00:06:36.000 And that's a good deal for everybody.

00:06:38.000 If you're willing to lose your child as they adventure outward, you'll gain them back in an adult relationship.

00:06:51.000 How did you overindulge, do you think, exactly?

00:06:54.000 Well, we just gave him everything, everything.

00:06:58.000 Okay.

00:06:59.000 We spoiled the heck out of him because I grew up with nothing.

00:07:03.000 And Jamie grew up in a household where things were love.

00:07:07.000 And we just don't want our five-year-old to follow in the same footsteps.

00:07:12.000 Like, see that as an example to grow up as.

00:07:22.000 I've seen mothers who are at the beck and call of their three-year-old son in particular.

00:07:28.000 That's a bad idea.

00:07:29.000 Your son, your daughter for that matter, isn't little god emperor of the universe

00:07:34.000 and shouldn't conceptualize himself or herself that way.

00:07:38.000 That's a good pathway to narcissism. 0.95

00:07:40.000 Your best pathway forward as a mother is to not do for your child anything that your child can do for themself.

00:07:48.000 That means doing up their shoes or putting on their clothes and cleaning up their rooms

00:07:52.000 and helping to set the table when they're old enough to help set the table.

00:07:57.000 One of the mistakes that parents make is they'll step in and do things quickly for the child

00:08:02.000 instead of letting them learn.

00:08:04.000 Now, at any given time, it's faster for you to dress your child,

00:08:09.000 but you don't want to be dressing them when they're seven.

00:08:11.000 Everything you can do to bring the child into the realm of adult responsibility

00:08:17.000 is exactly the sort of thing that you would do if you were reasonable

00:08:21.000 and you were trying to boost what people now so casually call self-esteem.

00:08:26.000 There's nothing that gives a person more esteem than to see that they're useful and necessary

00:08:32.000 and that that's real.

00:08:33.000 How are you doing?

00:08:36.000 I'm good.

00:08:37.000 What's your name?

00:08:38.000 Thank you so much.

00:08:39.000 Micah.

00:08:40.000 Micah.

00:08:41.000 Nice to meet you, Dr. Peterson.

00:08:42.000 Good to meet you, Micah.

00:08:43.000 So what brings you here today?

00:08:44.000 Well, I have been engaged for a couple of weeks

00:08:46.000 and my fiancé already has a two-year-old son,

00:08:50.000 which means that I'm going to be an instant father to a toddler,

00:08:54.000 which raises a few questions for me.

00:08:57.000 Yeah.

00:08:58.000 What is a father?

00:08:59.000 Yeah.

00:09:00.000 Is it something that you are or is it a role that you can step into like I'm about to?

00:09:08.000 Yeah.

00:09:09.000 Well, I guess you're going to find out to answer that question, aren't you?

00:09:12.000 Yes.

00:09:16.000 Can you become a father?

00:09:17.000 Is that a role you take on?

00:09:19.000 I think it's always a role you take on.

00:09:22.000 Being a father is a relationship

00:09:24.000 and a relationship is something you have to develop.

00:09:28.000 Any time that you spend with your child one-on-one,

00:09:33.000 teaching them, talking to them, playing with them,

00:09:36.000 listening to them, walking with them is encouragement

00:09:40.000 because they need to learn to be adults.

00:09:42.000 And your children need to see you modelling how to be an engaged adult for them.

00:09:48.000 Honest and committed pursuit of a worthwhile goal.

00:09:54.000 That's a good way of thinking about what a father should model.

00:09:58.000 Voluntary adventure.

00:10:00.000 That's another encapsulation of the masculine role. 0.95

00:10:05.000 The establishment of a vision.

00:10:07.000 The commitment to its pursuit.

00:10:09.000 Resilience in the face of failure.

00:10:12.000 Faith in the future.

00:10:14.000 Service to your family, your community.

00:10:18.000 Protection from the catastrophes of life and care of the most vulnerable.

00:10:23.000 That's masculinity in a nutshell.

00:10:26.000 That's why the shepherd, for example, in old religious stories,

00:10:30.000 is a model of masculinity.

00:10:33.000 Ancient shepherds, they kept the wolves and the lions at bay

00:10:37.000 and took care of the most vulnerable.

00:10:39.000 And that's what men who are worthy of the name strive for.

00:10:44.000 Don't assume that there's a pathway to being a father.

00:10:49.000 Just have a relationship with the kid.

00:10:51.000 And that'll unfold at its own speed.

00:10:54.000 And that is what happens with fathers anyways.

00:10:56.000 You've got to get to know your kid.

00:10:58.000 And you do that by spending time with them.

00:11:00.000 And just because children know less about the world at the experiential level

00:11:05.000 doesn't mean they're not paying attention.

00:11:07.000 And it certainly doesn't mean that they're stupid.

00:11:09.000 They're not stupid.

00:11:11.000 And they're watching.

00:11:12.000 And you can talk to them.

00:11:13.000 Now, you have to talk to a two-year-old about the things

00:11:16.000 that a two-year-old can understand.

00:11:18.000 But if you have a genuine conversation with them,

00:11:21.000 then you're communicating.

00:11:23.000 And that's just steady all the way through.

00:11:31.000 There's no difference, technically speaking,

00:11:34.000 between being concerned with yourself in the narrow sense,

00:11:39.000 say concerned with your own pleasure, concerned with your own status.

00:11:43.000 There's no difference between that and suffering.

00:11:45.000 The answer to that isn't to stop being self-conscious

00:11:49.000 because that's not something you can voluntarily control.

00:11:52.000 The answer is to note that meaning in your life

00:11:56.000 is going to be found in adoption of responsibility for other people

00:12:01.000 and responsibility for the future.

00:12:04.000 Shouldering that load makes you productive and useful,

00:12:11.000 but it also provides you with the sustaining meaning

00:12:15.000 that helps you manage yourself even through times of trouble.

00:12:20.000 For the past couple of months, he's been calling me daddy.

00:12:23.000 Oh, yeah.

00:12:24.000 What do you think of that?

00:12:25.000 It makes me feel a lot more pressure than I was comfortable with at first.

00:12:30.000 Yeah.

00:12:31.000 But even though I did feel the pressure,

00:12:33.000 I also felt the conviction that I,

00:12:36.000 I'd already decided this was the right thing to do.

00:12:38.000 Like you said, you had doubts.

00:12:40.000 Do you have, what are, what are your doubts?

00:12:42.000 I am worried about it being too much at once.

00:12:47.000 I'm worried about feeling invaded and, um, and claustrophobic.

00:12:54.000 Okay.

00:12:55.000 You know, people think, well, I'm taking on this responsibility.

00:12:58.000 I'm sacrificing my freedom.

00:13:00.000 It's like, well, first of all, freedom to do what?

00:13:02.000 To be self-centered and miserable?

00:13:05.000 What?

00:13:06.000 And lonesome?

00:13:07.000 That's all the freedom I want.

00:13:08.000 Self-centered, miserable, and lonesome.

00:13:10.000 Yeah.

00:13:11.000 So then you take on the hypothetical responsibility of a child,

00:13:14.000 but the thing is they pay you.

00:13:16.000 There's data on this too.

00:13:18.000 People who have little kids take more pleasure in the things they do 0.60

00:13:23.000 with their little kids than single people do doing the same things.

00:13:30.000 Kids look at the world through fresh eyes.

00:13:32.000 Every thing that you do with a little kid is a new thing for the kid

00:13:36.000 and you get to see that, and that's a really good deal.

00:13:41.000 And you can become a master of those little adventures

00:13:44.000 that you go on with your kids.

00:13:49.000 If you learn to do it right,

00:13:51.000 Summer's a skateboarder.

00:13:54.000 There won't be anything that you'd rather do,

00:13:56.000 because it's a very rare adult who is as much joy to be with

00:14:01.000 than a child who's well-disciplined and playfully accompanying you.

00:14:07.000 In conclusion, what lessons can you derive from today's discussion?

00:14:15.000 Lessons for motherhood.

00:14:17.000 Hold them close, but let them go.

00:14:20.000 Encourage your children to go out into the world

00:14:22.000 so they become competent and productive and happy and secure.

00:14:26.000 But be confident that when the need arises,

00:14:29.000 they'll come to you for the care that only as their mother you can provide.

00:14:33.000 Don't worship your child.

00:14:35.000 Care for them, love them, but don't turn them into narcissists.

00:14:39.000 Lessons for fatherhood.

00:14:41.000 Become the man your children want to imitate.

00:14:44.000 There's very little that you can do that's more important as a man

00:14:47.000 than to provide the model for responsible, adventurous adulthood to your children.

00:14:53.000 Embrace responsibility.

00:14:55.000 Gain purpose.

00:14:56.000 You're giving up what's often nothing more than juvenile hedonism

00:15:01.000 to pursue something of much greater significance.

00:15:04.000 The meaning that you find in the voluntary adoption of responsibility.

00:15:07.000 So I'd like to offer you a sample homework assignment, so to speak.

00:15:11.000 Sit and write a little bit, a couple of paragraphs,

00:15:13.000 about three things that your father did particularly well.

00:15:17.000 And do the same with your mother.

00:15:19.000 Write down as well three things that you think they might have done better.

00:15:22.000 And then give some thought while you're writing to how you could capitalize

00:15:26.000 on the positive things that your father and your mother taught you

00:15:29.000 and how you could rectify the things that were less than optimal.

00:15:33.000 I hope that that's helpful in dealing with the problems that arise in the future.

00:15:38.000 My new Daily Wire Plus series, Parenting, brings what I've learned in decades of research

00:15:45.000 and clinical practice to the concerns of real mothers and fathers.

00:15:49.000 Watch Parenting exclusively on Daily Wire, May 25th.

00:15:53.000 Go to dailywireplus.com today to subscribe.

00:15:57.000 We'll see you next time.

00:15:58.000 Bye.

00:15:59.000 Bye.

00:16:00.000 Bye.

00:16:01.000 Bye.

00:16:02.000 Bye.

00:16:03.000 Bye.

00:16:04.000 Bye.

00:16:06.000 Bye.

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - May 21, 2025

Parental Roles

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