The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - Playing the Hierarchical Game - Part two

00:00:00.000 Hey everyone, real quick before you skip, I want to talk to you about something serious and important.

00:00:06.480 Dr. Jordan Peterson has created a new series that could be a lifeline for those battling depression and anxiety.

00:00:12.740 We know how isolating and overwhelming these conditions can be, and we wanted to take a moment to reach out to those listening who may be struggling.

00:00:20.100 With decades of experience helping patients, Dr. Peterson offers a unique understanding of why you might be feeling this way in his new series.

00:00:27.420 He provides a roadmap towards healing, showing that while the journey isn't easy, it's absolutely possible to find your way forward.

00:00:35.360 If you're suffering, please know you are not alone. There's hope, and there's a path to feeling better.

00:00:41.780 Go to Daily Wire Plus now and start watching Dr. Jordan B. Peterson on depression and anxiety.

00:00:47.460 Let this be the first step towards the brighter future you deserve.

00:00:50.980 Welcome to the Jordan B. Peterson podcast. I'm Mikayla Peterson, Jordan's daughter.

00:01:02.320 I've put up a YouTube video on my dad's channel that goes into detail about the last year of hell the Petersons have had to experience.

00:01:10.420 If you listen to this podcast often, you know I usually give family updates.

00:01:14.240 I haven't for the last month, and I'm about to tell you why.

00:01:16.800 You can go to YouTube to check out the most recent update, but I'll also just read the script I used for the video to make it easier for you.

00:01:24.220 So here goes.

00:01:25.560 The last year has been absolute hell for the Petersons.

00:01:28.140 Dad was put on a low dose of a benzodiazepine a few years ago for anxiety following an extremely severe autoimmune reaction to food.

00:01:35.380 He took the medication as prescribed.

00:01:37.460 Last April, when my mom was diagnosed with terminal cancer, the dose of the medication was increased.

00:01:42.140 It became apparent that he was suffering from both a physical dependency and a paradoxical reaction to the medication.

00:01:48.060 Paradoxical reaction means the drugs do the opposite of what they're supposed to.

00:01:52.200 These reactions are rare but not unheard of.

00:01:54.780 For the last eight months, he's been in unbearable discomfort from this drug, made worse when trying to remove it,

00:02:00.780 because of the addition of withdrawal symptoms stemming from physical dependence.

00:02:04.140 He experienced terrible akathisia, which is a condition where the person feels an incredible, endless, irresistible restlessness, bordering on panic, and an inability to sit still.

00:02:14.680 The reaction made him suicidal.

00:02:16.540 After several failed treatment attempts in North American hospitals, including attempts at tapering and microtapering,

00:02:22.420 we had to seek an emergency medical benzodiazepine detox, which we were only able to find in Russia.

00:02:27.800 It was incredibly grueling and was further complicated by severe pneumonia, which we've been told he developed in one of the previous hospitals.

00:02:35.600 He's had to spend four weeks in the ICU in terrible shape, but with the help of some extremely competent and courageous doctors, he survived.

00:02:42.620 The decision to bring him to Russia was made in extreme desperation, when we couldn't find any better options.

00:02:47.960 The uncertainty around his recovery has been one of the most difficult and scary experiences we've ever had.

00:02:52.180 So, finally, dad is on the mend, even though there's a lot of physiological damage that he needs to recover from.

00:02:59.080 He's improving and is off of the horrible medication.

00:03:01.960 His sense of humor is back.

00:03:03.500 He's smiling again for the first time in months, but he still has a long way to go to recover fully.

00:03:08.400 It appears that we're going to get through this by the skin of our teeth, so let me make a couple of things clear.

00:03:13.360 One, neither our family nor the doctors here believe that this was a case of psychological addiction.

00:03:18.340 Two, benzodiazepine physical dependence, due to brain changes, can occur in a matter of weeks.

00:03:24.160 It can be made even worse by paradoxical reactions that are difficult to diagnose and can be extremely difficult.

00:03:29.780 We've been told and hoped that dad will recover fully, but it will take time and he still has a ways to go.

00:03:35.200 We are extremely lucky and grateful that he's alive.

00:03:37.440 The next update will come from him directly on YouTube.

00:03:41.480 Thanks again for all the support.

00:03:42.980 I wouldn't wish the hell dad experienced this year on my worst enemy.

00:03:46.520 So, that's why we're in Russia, and that's why there have been no updates for a number of weeks.

00:03:51.680 We really didn't know if he was going to survive.

00:03:53.500 He did though, thank goodness.

00:03:55.440 So, today's episode is a 12 Rules for Life lecture called Playing the Hierarchical Game Part 2.

00:04:02.640 The first part was last week.

00:04:04.160 It was recorded in Melbourne, Australia on February 13th, 2019.

00:04:08.100 Enjoy the podcast.

00:04:09.200 Thanks for the support.

00:04:09.960 Playing the Hierarchical Game Part 2, a Jordan B. Peterson 12 Rules for Life lecture.

00:04:20.420 We have to be more sophisticated than economists were 150 years ago when we talk about inequality.

00:04:26.260 And when we talk about hierarchy, we also have to be more sophisticated because we have to start to understand

00:04:32.060 what it means for there to be a human hierarchy and the basis upon which hierarchies actually establish themselves

00:04:41.060 if they're going to be playable, iterable, civilized, productive, sustainable, what?

00:04:51.000 Voluntary.

00:04:51.720 That's an important one.

00:04:53.040 What are the characteristics of such things?

00:04:55.260 And I think that if we use a little bit of sense, we can figure that out too.

00:05:00.120 And I like to use the example of plumbers because I actually happen to like plumbers.

00:05:04.960 Partly because I don't like it when my basement is full of sewage.

00:05:08.620 And that's happened once or twice.

00:05:10.540 And you call a plumber and then that doesn't happen.

00:05:14.100 And I'm pleased about that.

00:05:16.840 Like I'm sure most of you are, you know.

00:05:18.720 And plumbers have done an awful lot for the world.

00:05:20.980 And there's a big difference between a good plumber and a bad plumber.

00:05:25.760 I've had two bad plumbers.

00:05:27.820 And the first bad plumber was in Montreal.

00:05:30.820 And my tap was leaking a little bit.

00:05:32.880 And so he came in to fix it.

00:05:34.560 And I don't know what the hell he was doing.

00:05:36.440 But he was using a torch.

00:05:37.960 And he was burning something.

00:05:39.420 Maybe taking some solder off some pipes underneath the sink.

00:05:43.760 But he lit the wall on fire which wasn't helpful because the wall wasn't on fire before he showed up.

00:05:50.460 And so, and then, and then he forgot to shut the water off at the main pipe when he took the tap apart.

00:05:57.620 And so then, apart from the fact that my wall was charred, my bathroom was completely covered with water.

00:06:03.660 And then he sort of panicked and he put the thing back together, the tap back together with the, with the, with the washer.

00:06:10.640 Which was now extraordinarily damaged.

00:06:12.720 And he shut it off and he turned, he had figured out to turn the water off at the main valve by then.

00:06:17.920 And he turned it back on and he left.

00:06:19.580 And it was like, now the wall was on fire and the floor was covered with water.

00:06:25.060 And there was five times as much water running out of the tap.

00:06:29.940 This was not an improvement.

00:06:31.880 I joked with my wife that he was an anti-plumber.

00:06:34.400 You know, like, like, like an anti-matter plumber.

00:06:37.660 And if he ever met a real plumber on the road and shook his hand, they'd both disappear in a puff of light.

00:06:44.120 So, so that was one plumber.

00:06:47.100 And, you know, and then another plumber, we were, we were redoing our house in Toronto.

00:06:52.180 And it was the day before the drywallers were supposed to come in.

00:06:55.500 And so we were working like mad.

00:06:57.200 Because drywallers, like, they're fun to watch, man. 0.85

00:06:59.940 They zip in, they lift up their piece of drywall.

00:07:02.220 They zip it up with their screws.

00:07:04.420 And they're really fast at it.

00:07:06.000 And it's quite, quite a skilled operation.

00:07:08.240 And, but they're really fast and they don't muck about.

00:07:10.360 And so you have to be ready for the drywallers.

00:07:12.160 And so this guy had redone all our pipes, PVC, plastic pipe.

00:07:15.700 And you put this, that together with a kind of solvent, hey.

00:07:18.600 So you just put solvent on one end of the pipe, the male end.

00:07:21.940 And you put it into the female end with some solvent. 0.97

00:07:24.540 And they stick together.

00:07:25.540 And hopefully it seals.

00:07:27.080 And he said, my joints never leak.

00:07:30.340 And so we tested them.

00:07:32.180 We went up on this roof, three floors up.

00:07:34.560 And filled the pipes up with water.

00:07:36.240 And his joints leaked.

00:07:38.420 Like 32 joints leaked.

00:07:40.720 We had four inches of water in the basement.

00:07:42.880 And this was the day before the drywallers were supposed to show up.

00:07:46.180 And then also we found that he had put a lot of the pipes outside of the wall where the drywall was going to be.

00:07:52.160 Which actually also constitutes a mistake, right?

00:07:55.340 Because I don't know about your house.

00:07:57.100 But, but my house isn't a house where there's plumbing sticking randomly out of the walls.

00:08:03.280 So we had to spend the whole night redoing all the joints and cutting the pipes and, you know, putting them the way they were supposed to.

00:08:10.140 And so, and so that's a bad plumber.

00:08:13.560 And so we're going to make the case that they're bad plumbers, you know.

00:08:17.900 And, and they don't know what they're doing.

00:08:20.100 And so, so they don't have any skill.

00:08:22.160 Or maybe they're worse than not skilled.

00:08:24.660 They make things worse because that's worse than just not skilled.

00:08:27.900 And then you could say, well, maybe they lie to you when, when they deal with you.

00:08:32.120 And maybe they overcharge you.

00:08:33.720 And maybe they don't treat their employees very well.

00:08:36.420 You know, and maybe they're not good to live with at home either.

00:08:39.060 Who the hell knows?

00:08:40.000 But they're not good plumbers.

00:08:41.860 And so we're going to say that just in the plumbing domain, which is an important domain, skill matters.

00:08:47.280 Right?

00:08:47.820 That seems reasonable.

00:08:49.320 And then we might say the same thing about, well, what?

00:08:51.980 Probably matters in law.

00:08:53.660 Like, if you ever need a lawyer, I would recommend that you get a good one.

00:08:57.020 Because if you get a bad one, it's going to cost you a lot more than if you get a good one.

00:09:01.340 Like, like everything.

00:09:03.280 And, you know, there are good teachers and not so good teachers.

00:09:06.640 And there are good massage therapists.

00:09:08.140 And there are good nurses. 1.00

00:09:09.160 And there are horrible nurses. 1.00

00:09:10.760 And there are great surgeons. 1.00

00:09:12.560 And then there are surgeons that will definitely kill you. 0.86

00:09:15.500 You know? 0.70

00:09:16.220 And you, you want to go to one that won't kill you.

00:09:18.780 That's, that's the, and you, you'd assume difference in skill.

00:09:22.180 You know, and whatever your occupation is, you know bloody well.

00:09:25.940 Maybe you're a short order cook at a diner.

00:09:28.120 And, like, some short order cooks can whip up a pretty damn decent breakfast in three 1.00

00:09:32.560 or four minutes.

00:09:33.260 And you're pretty bloody happy to sit there and eat it. 0.92

00:09:35.940 And other short order cooks can produce some god awful mess of, of burnt eggs and wretched 0.99

00:09:42.100 toast and rancid bacon and orange juice that's, like, had a crayon dipped in it for the color.

00:09:47.200 And with, with a really ornery, uh, waitress and coffee that's been cooking since, like, 1953.

00:09:54.360 And there's a, that's a big difference in short order cooks.

00:09:57.720 There's qualitative difference in skill.

00:10:00.220 Okay?

00:10:00.520 And so one of the things we might point out is that part of the reason that we have hierarchies

00:10:04.960 in the West is because people actually differ in skill.

00:10:08.460 Not power.

00:10:09.760 Skill.

00:10:10.140 Some people are better at whatever it is they're supposed to be doing than other people.

00:10:14.960 And we think that what they're supposed to be doing is important so that it matters that

00:10:19.320 they're better at it.

00:10:20.620 And we're, what are we going to do?

00:10:21.860 We're going to deny that skill plays a role?

00:10:24.040 All the evidence suggests that it does.

00:10:25.880 Like, if you look at what predicts long-term success from a psychological perspective in a

00:10:30.600 given occupation, conscientiousness is the best personality predictor.

00:10:35.380 And conscientious people are dutiful and hardworking.

00:10:37.720 And they have integrity and they do what they say they're going to do.

00:10:41.140 And so that's the best predictor, second best predictor.

00:10:43.740 And the best predictor is intelligence.

00:10:45.460 And so it looks like in a relatively complicated occupation, if you're going to be successful

00:10:51.080 in a Western culture, the best predictors of your success is whether you're intelligent,

00:10:56.280 skilled, and conscientious.

00:10:58.420 And that's pretty good.

00:10:59.500 Like, how else would you want it to be if you're going to set it up?

00:11:04.080 And it isn't power because agreeableness is another dimension.

00:11:07.720 You can be disagreeable.

00:11:09.320 Men are more disagreeable than women, by the way. 1.00

00:11:11.740 And if our society was fundamentally based on power, then the most disagreeable people

00:11:18.000 would be the most successful.

00:11:19.540 And they're not.

00:11:20.740 They're the ones that are most likely to be in prison.

00:11:24.560 So the evidence just doesn't support that.

00:11:27.980 And then, you know, the other thing is, is you don't have, you imagine, well, our society

00:11:33.020 is fundamentally an oppressive patriarchy.

00:11:35.260 And everything's based on power.

00:11:37.060 It's like, okay, so you need a plumber.

00:11:39.180 And so what you do is you go out in the street, or maybe you don't, maybe you cower at home,

00:11:43.460 and these like gangs of plumbers come to your house. 0.99

00:11:45.960 And they're armed to the damn teeth with their pipes. 0.99

00:11:48.900 And they say, look, I don't know whether you need like some plumbing work done or not, 0.99

00:11:53.220 but maybe we'll come in here and break a few things so that, so that you do need it.

00:11:57.140 But even if we're not going to do that, it's like, we're the plumbers that are going to

00:12:00.780 take you out unless you call us.

00:12:02.920 And so the next time the toilet overflows, man, here's the number, and you better put

00:12:07.660 it on your fridge.

00:12:08.540 Or there's going to be hell to pay.

00:12:10.420 Or, you know, the same is the case of like gang-affiliated massage therapists.

00:12:17.260 Exactly the same thing.

00:12:18.740 Tattooed to the hill, right?

00:12:20.220 Armed to the teeth.

00:12:21.240 And roaming the streets, making bloody sure that if you have a stiff neck, that the most

00:12:26.740 powerful massage therapist is the one that you're going to call first. 1.00

00:12:30.840 You know, it's complete bloody rubbish. 0.98

00:12:33.820 It's absolutely not the case. 0.91

00:12:35.720 Now, it is the case that even in a hierarchy that's functional, the thing can go sideways.

00:12:43.520 And it does.

00:12:44.620 You know, you get companies that get too big, they start to get corrupt.

00:12:47.940 People who play politics and who are good at manipulating start to rise up the hierarchy.

00:12:53.420 The structure stops performing its function, its useful function in the way that it should.

00:13:00.100 It starts to degenerate.

00:13:01.840 But generally then it dies.

00:13:04.000 You know, like the typical Fortune 500 company only lasts 30 years.

00:13:07.540 And the typical family fortune only three generations.

00:13:09.840 It's not that easy to keep a functional enterprise going.

00:13:14.880 You have to be awake.

00:13:16.880 And so, no.

00:13:19.000 It's not an oppressive patriarchy.

00:13:21.500 Our culture.

00:13:22.280 That's wrong.

00:13:23.400 It's based on competence.

00:13:25.080 Fundamentally.

00:13:26.020 Imperfect as that is.

00:13:27.600 It's not like we don't make hiring mistakes. 1.00

00:13:29.900 It's not like there aren't people who are foolish and blind. 0.99

00:13:32.780 And hire and fire based on attributes that have nothing to do with competence. 0.98

00:13:38.560 But that's a sign of the deterioration of the system and the corruption of the system.

00:13:43.380 And not an indication of its fundamental function.

00:13:46.520 And it's also the case that, and this is partly what I tried to outline in rule one.

00:13:51.600 Which is pretty much the rule we're going to discuss today.

00:13:54.380 Part of your goal, if you want to take your place in the hierarchy properly, is to be a good person.

00:14:04.120 And that was the argument I was trying to make in the chapter.

00:14:08.900 Not that you're supposed to be like the most brutal crustacean on the block.

00:14:14.620 You know? 1.00

00:14:15.140 It's so foolish. 0.99

00:14:16.460 It was Kathy Newman, I think, that asked me in the UK. 0.99

00:14:20.500 Okay, so you're saying that human society should be organized along the lines of lobsters.

00:14:25.480 It's like, look, lady. 0.99

00:14:27.480 If you're going to insult someone, you might want to try accusing them of something,

00:14:35.160 of believing something, that someone somewhere believed at least once in the entire history of the human race.

00:14:43.200 And not that.

00:14:44.240 Yes, absolutely.

00:14:45.740 Lobsters for everyone.

00:14:47.160 You know, what I was trying to make the case was that we have this very old system in our nervous systems,

00:14:54.460 which is very old, which keeps track of where we are in hierarchies,

00:14:59.280 and that regulates our emotions because of it.

00:15:01.700 Because it's really important to you, and you, and you, and you, 0.79

00:15:04.600 if you're not completely bloody psychopathic, 0.80

00:15:07.040 that you have a place in a social hierarchy,

00:15:10.360 and that you're admired and respected and valued by other people.

00:15:13.760 And it's so important that the neurochemical system that keeps track of that regulates your other emotions.

00:15:21.000 So that if you're low on the totem pole, because, well, for whatever the reason happens to be,

00:15:26.820 sometimes you deserve it, sometimes it's accidental, sometimes you've been hurt.

00:15:30.500 There's lots of ways that this can happen.

00:15:34.000 Your serotonin levels plummet, like a defeated lobster,

00:15:37.900 and then you feel way more negative emotion about everything,

00:15:41.160 and way less positive emotion about everything.

00:15:44.260 And that's absolutely dreadful.

00:15:46.380 Like, it's, it's, that's clinical depression, and it's a terrible, terrible condition.

00:15:51.100 And so it's absolutely crucial that you maintain a tenable position in a hierarchy.

00:15:57.780 And not of one of power, but one of competence.

00:16:01.020 And at least even if you're not in a position that's tenable,

00:16:04.500 you're moving upward towards one that's tenable.

00:16:08.320 Because that at least gives you hope. 0.99

00:16:10.000 You know, because maybe you're young and useless, 1.00

00:16:11.740 and you don't know what the hell you're doing. 0.99

00:16:12.920 You're just getting started.

00:16:14.300 And so you're a low man on the totem pole.

00:16:16.200 But it's not like you're stuck there forever.

00:16:18.380 You do some decent work.

00:16:20.080 I had some kid tell me the other day, it was really nice.

00:16:22.660 It was just last night.

00:16:23.880 It was at a comedy show I went to here.

00:16:26.100 And a lot of the comedians knew us.

00:16:29.720 Dave Rubin and I went in there.

00:16:31.180 And so a lot of them knew us, which was quite interesting.

00:16:33.740 And one of them said,

00:16:35.060 God, you know, I was in a rough shape two years ago.

00:16:37.260 I was just getting married.

00:16:38.520 I just got married.

00:16:39.340 And I was nihilistic as hell and depressed and bitter.

00:16:41.800 And things weren't going well for me at all.

00:16:44.160 And I was unemployed.

00:16:46.920 And one of my friends got me a job.

00:16:48.880 And he said, I didn't really like the bloody job.

00:16:50.700 I didn't want to have the job. 0.99

00:16:51.900 And I was kind of dragging my ass to the work and not doing it well. 0.97

00:16:55.500 And I listened to one of your lectures. 0.98

00:16:57.140 And it said, look, if you haven't got anything going for you, but you have a job, don't quit your job.

00:17:04.980 Whether you hate it or not, it's like, man, that's what you're hanging on to the edge of the world with your fingertips, you know?

00:17:11.720 Don't let go.

00:17:13.120 Oh, if you can find a better job, okay, fine.

00:17:15.100 But you don't just quit.

00:17:16.280 Because then what?

00:17:16.940 You're done. 0.99

00:17:18.100 And he said, another thing that I had mentioned was, why don't you just try to work as hard as you can at your damn job for like six weeks? 0.99

00:17:26.560 Right? 0.99

00:17:26.780 All flat out.

00:17:27.700 You know, if you work 10% longer hours, you make 40% more money.

00:17:33.860 That's something worth thinking about.

00:17:35.480 You know, you've got a job.

00:17:36.300 Maybe you show up 15 minutes early and you leave 15 minutes late.

00:17:40.620 You know, and you actually work and your boss notices because he would probably notice.

00:17:44.440 And then maybe someone's going to get promoted and maybe it'll be you because something's going to tilt the scales.

00:17:52.160 And that little extra bit of work done without cynicism and resentment might be enough.

00:17:57.400 Well, he said he started at 21 bucks an hour and in six weeks he was making $37 an hour.

00:18:02.760 And it's not a king's ransom, man, but it's a hell of a lot more than zero and it's quite a lot more than 21. 0.96

00:18:09.260 He said his life had turned around substantially because he learned if he put some damn effort into it.

00:18:13.940 And I'm not trying to be Joe Optimist here.

00:18:16.620 Like, I know that people hit runs of bad luck and that things can take you out of life, right?

00:18:22.920 Like, unfortunate illnesses and betrayal and, like, there's no shortage of randomness and horror that can wipe you out even if you're doing your best.

00:18:32.840 But you don't have a better bloody plan than to do your best and it tends to work a lot better than you think.

00:18:40.280 And what's so interesting about the hierarchies that people set up is that that's how they're set up.

00:18:46.880 They're not set up on power.

00:18:49.020 They're set up on reciprocity and skill and trust.

00:18:51.960 Not always, you know, and if you're in a job where you work hard and you're a good guy and you're doing your best

00:18:57.960 and your boss is a bloody tyrant and you never get a break, it's like, okay, fine.

00:19:03.540 You're in a Foucault world. 0.99

00:19:07.120 Get the hell out of it, you know?

00:19:09.440 Get your resume set up, write your CV, fill in the educational gaps that you have,

00:19:15.800 send out your 25 resumes a day and prepare to make a lateral move because you're in a bad place.

00:19:21.960 But almost everywhere, and this has certainly been the case virtually everywhere I've worked,

00:19:26.660 and I've had like 50 jobs, you know?

00:19:28.840 If you go above and beyond the call of duty in an awake and intelligent way,

00:19:35.840 interpersonally, socially, with regards to the diligence of your work,

00:19:40.160 with regards to the truth of your attitude and your courage and all of that,

00:19:43.320 that will work.

00:19:45.520 And, you know, if you try it for a year and it doesn't work,

00:19:47.620 then go somewhere else because you can, right?

00:19:50.240 You're free.

00:19:50.920 I mean, it's not easy.

00:19:52.260 You can't just walk out the door and instantly find another job.

00:19:55.280 But you're not enslaved.

00:19:56.840 You could make a move.

00:19:58.400 You could even decide that you're going to make a move and double your salary.

00:20:01.520 You know, it's not a bad goal and it's certainly a possibility.

00:20:04.940 It's like, it isn't hierarchy.

00:20:07.320 It's ethics that determines success in a functional society.

00:20:11.920 It's ethics that determines success, not power.

00:20:15.500 The rest of it's a bloody lie.

00:20:17.080 And that doesn't mean that all our systems are perfectly ethical.

00:20:20.700 You know, you've got to be awake.

00:20:22.320 If you're in a system, there's going to be some corruption in it. 0.99

00:20:25.000 Part of what you're supposed to do is keep your damn eyes open for the corruption 0.98

00:20:28.200 and your mouth speaking truth so when the corruption starts to take root, 0.99

00:20:32.100 you object to it so the whole damn system doesn't turn into a pathological power play. 0.96

00:20:37.080 And that's part of your ethical responsibility as a conscious being, 0.98

00:20:41.400 an ethical being, a religious being for that matter,

00:20:44.420 and a citizen, you know?

00:20:46.880 And you're charged with that.

00:20:48.640 That's why you vote.

00:20:50.340 That's why you're the cornerstone of your state, man.

00:20:52.900 You're the, you're the, you're the, what would you call?

00:20:55.760 You're the, you're the wellspring of the ethical actions that replenish the dying world.

00:21:03.080 That's what you are.

00:21:04.680 And if you, if you act, that's really, that's what you are.

00:21:09.180 And if you act that out properly, then things work.

00:21:13.100 And that's why that's always been described as ethical behavior.

00:21:16.120 It's not because you're supposed to be good.

00:21:18.140 You know, and being good isn't that easy anyways.

00:21:20.160 And it certainly doesn't mean being nice and harmless.

00:21:23.340 It's not an easy thing to be good. 0.98

00:21:25.080 You have to be tough as a damn boat to be good. 0.97

00:21:27.680 Because you have to stand your ground when you need to stand your ground. 0.99

00:21:30.820 And you have to be able to say no when it's time to say no.

00:21:33.900 And you have to mean it.

00:21:35.420 And so then you have to think and plan strategically so that when you're going to say no,

00:21:39.960 you can mean it and it will stick.

00:21:42.340 You know, and that takes a certain amount of,

00:21:44.420 that takes a certain amount of integrated malevolence, I would say.

00:21:48.720 And once it's integrated, it's not malevolence.

00:21:51.620 It's strength.

00:21:52.580 It's strength of character.

00:21:54.500 It's the ability to stand your ground.

00:21:56.560 And you have to cultivate that.

00:21:58.340 And you cultivate that at least in part by telling the truth.

00:22:01.640 And so you take your place in the world as a decent person and as a decent citizen.

00:22:05.560 And then, and you play the hierarchical game properly.

00:22:08.500 And that is to stand up straight with your shoulders back.

00:22:11.240 It's like the world's an onslaught.

00:22:13.380 You've got the tyranny of culture to deal with.

00:22:16.120 You've got the catastrophe of nature. 1.00

00:22:18.140 You've got your own damn malevolence and ignorance, right? 1.00

00:22:20.800 All coming at you. 1.00

00:22:21.960 Plus the incredible, complicated, indeterminate potential of the future.

00:22:27.240 That's all coming at you.

00:22:29.060 And it's all your responsibility.

00:22:30.720 And you can cringe away from it and be afraid of it.

00:22:33.240 And be victimized by it.

00:22:34.740 And be bitter and cynical about it.

00:22:36.680 And no wonder, because it can be painful.

00:22:39.020 Or you can turn around and you can say,

00:22:40.660 bring it on, because there's more to me than there is to the catastrophe.

00:22:45.860 And this is what I discovered from looking at what I looked at.

00:22:49.200 I looked at the darkest things I could look at, really, for 30 years.

00:22:52.900 I was really a lot of fun to be around, I can tell you.

00:22:56.000 I looked at the darkest things that I could think of, right?

00:22:58.860 Not only what happened in Auschwitz and what happened in the Gulag,

00:23:02.040 but personal issues, you know?

00:23:04.700 It's like I wasn't so much interested in the totalitarians as a group.

00:23:08.600 I was interested in the people who undertook the terrible acts that the totalitarians required.

00:23:14.160 You know, the people who, I was just rereading Ordinary Men.

00:23:17.420 And it was a story about a police battalion in Poland that trained ordinary policemen 0.86

00:23:22.020 to take naked, pregnant women out into the fields and shoot them in the back of the head. 1.00

00:23:27.960 It takes a lot of training, by the way, before you can bring yourself to do that. 0.99

00:23:32.040 And you aren't the same person by the end of it. 0.93

00:23:34.400 It's pretty goddamn horrific.

00:23:35.800 You know, and I was trying to figure out, what would it be like to be that person? 0.91

00:23:41.840 Because we are that person.

00:23:44.220 And then what would it be like to not be that person, right?

00:23:47.980 To refuse to do that, to not participate in that.

00:23:51.540 You know, and what I discovered by making that totalitarian proclivity personal

00:23:56.500 was that there's more to us than there is to the horror.

00:24:00.980 You know, bad as nature is, bent on our destruction, bad as culture is, tyrannical and bloody, back 0.70

00:24:07.980 as far as you can look, as malevolent as you are in the darkest part of your heart, and

00:24:14.000 that's plenty malevolent.

00:24:15.660 The possibility that's within you that can well up the courage and the truth and the ability

00:24:21.460 and the skill and the willingness to set things right, if you are willing to set them right,

00:24:28.020 is more powerful than all of that.

00:24:30.560 And so it's so interesting.

00:24:31.920 It was proof for me of an old saying I read from Carl Jung.

00:24:37.060 It's an alchemical motif in Sturquilinus Inventur,

00:24:40.660 which is what you most want to be found will be found where you least want to look, essentially.

00:24:46.300 And it's so interesting because it means that if you're willing to turn around and to stand

00:24:51.960 up, say, stand up straight and face the darkness like fully, what you discover at the darkest

00:24:59.420 part is the brightest light.

00:25:03.840 And that's something that's so much worth discovering because there's going to be terrible darkness

00:25:10.420 in your life.

00:25:11.460 And it's going to make you cynical and bitter.

00:25:13.700 And it could easily be that you're just not looking at it enough.

00:25:17.700 Because if you looked at it enough and you didn't shy away and you brought everything

00:25:22.520 you had to bear on it, you'd find that there was more to you than there was to the horror.

00:25:29.740 You know, I watched my father-in-law.

00:25:33.680 I'll end with this.

00:25:35.000 And you know, you don't know, eh?

00:25:38.460 Because you're not bringing your A game to the table with all that cynicism and bitterness

00:25:43.740 and resentment and willful blindness and avoidance.

00:25:46.760 Maybe you're playing at 60%.

00:25:48.360 It's not good enough because there's too much of what's bad for 60% to be good enough.

00:25:54.560 It's like you need 90% or 95% or 100%.

00:25:58.500 When about 15, 20 years ago, my mother-in-law developed prefrontal temporal dementia,

00:26:10.340 which I wouldn't recommend.

00:26:12.140 You know, it's one of those degenerative neurological diseases like Alzheimer's.

00:26:15.760 And those bloody things are, like they're in the top echelon of awful.

00:26:21.480 You know, you watch a person deteriorate before your eyes.

00:26:24.700 It's a lengthy, lengthy death.

00:26:27.240 And it was slow.

00:26:30.220 And her husband, he lived in this little town that I grew up in, about 3,000 people.

00:26:35.840 He was quite a character, man.

00:26:37.300 Everybody knew him.

00:26:38.800 I bought him a foghorn leghorn t-shirt once.

00:26:41.620 Because that's kind of what he was like.

00:26:42.840 He was loud and sort of bombastic.

00:26:44.400 But he stood up straight, I can tell you. 0.99

00:26:46.320 And he played the fool a little bit, mostly for the amusement of people. 1.00

00:26:49.940 But he was no damn fool. 0.99

00:26:51.540 And I always admired him and liked him. 0.99

00:26:53.960 And the feeling was mutual, thank God, since I married his daughter. 0.60

00:26:58.280 And, you know, he drank a lot with his crazy friends up in northern Alberta.

00:27:03.200 And he wasn't at home a lot because he was working a lot.

00:27:06.060 And, you know, he was kind of a party animal about town.

00:27:09.820 But a good businessman and a good man.

00:27:11.540 And then his wife got sick.

00:27:14.460 And they moved to another town.

00:27:15.800 And, you know, he took care of her for like 15 years.

00:27:20.860 It was unbelievable.

00:27:23.020 As she deteriorated, you know, and she got more desperate to have him around.

00:27:26.660 And her love for him never, never went away.

00:27:30.560 Even as she lost herself almost completely, she would always light up when he came into the room, you know.

00:27:41.160 And he took care of her right till within weeks of her death.

00:27:44.180 He had to finally put her in an old folks home because he was no longer strong enough to lift her up from the chair.

00:27:49.540 And we interacted with him a lot, you know, because we were trying to help him figure out how to cope.

00:27:54.260 And we had signs put up in the house, electronic signs that would tell her when he was leaving so that she would know where he went.

00:28:02.600 And we had recordings in the bathroom so that she knew what to do when she went into the bathroom. 1.00

00:28:07.300 And we tried to do everything we could to not make this absolutely bloody atrocious experience complete hell.

00:28:14.140 And he participated the whole way, you know, and it was really something to see.

00:28:18.820 It was really, it left me with a tremendous sense of admiration for him.

00:28:23.460 But not just for him, but for people who can do that.

00:28:27.840 You know, and if there was a new decline, he took it on.

00:28:31.660 And he didn't complain about it.

00:28:33.220 And he tried to do what he could, you know.

00:28:35.440 And like it was no picnic, don't get me wrong.

00:28:37.960 But it wasn't hell.

00:28:38.900 And then we were all gathered around the deathbed, her mother's, my wife's mother's deathbed.

00:28:44.840 And the family was there.

00:28:46.260 And they got along pretty well, you know.

00:28:47.900 Her sister's a palliative care nurse and the other one's a pharmacist.

00:28:51.860 And none of them are particularly afraid of illness and death, you know.

00:28:55.980 They're a pretty tough group.

00:28:57.320 And so, you know, they made sure their mother's lips were wet while she was no longer eating or drinking.

00:29:02.200 And tried to make her comfortable.

00:29:03.800 And they're around the deathbed.

00:29:05.300 And they were kind of getting along, you know.

00:29:06.720 It wasn't family feud at mother's death time.

00:29:10.460 And that was kind of nice.

00:29:12.380 And she died.

00:29:13.940 And that was that.

00:29:15.300 But it wasn't just that.

00:29:17.480 Because the fact that the family had coped with it well and nobly and honorably, I would say, brought them together.

00:29:24.420 They were closer afterwards than they were before.

00:29:27.100 And they all had more respect for their father.

00:29:29.460 And then in the old folks' home, he met another woman who had a husband there who had Alzheimer's.

00:29:37.340 And they got to know each other, you know.

00:29:38.960 And he died after a while.

00:29:40.620 And she died after a while.

00:29:42.320 And then a few months later, they started going out.

00:29:44.820 And then eventually they had a relationship.

00:29:47.120 And now they live together.

00:29:48.240 And so he gained something.

00:29:50.120 Like it wasn't that he replaced what he lost.

00:29:52.400 You know what I mean.

00:29:53.140 Because he still has pictures of his wife up in his house.

00:29:57.580 And she was the love of his life.

00:29:59.040 And that's not going away.

00:30:00.180 But, you know, his family respected him more.

00:30:02.940 And everybody pulled together more.

00:30:04.380 And it wasn't hell at the deathbed.

00:30:06.280 It was just tragedy.

00:30:07.880 And the family pulled together more.

00:30:09.860 And that was a good example of how you can extract at least a certain amount of light out of what's dark, even at a personal level. 0.98

00:30:18.940 And it's worth asking yourself, it's like, drop what you're doing that's foolish, that you know is foolish.

00:30:27.180 And pick a name that's worthwhile, you know, to make things better for yourself, like you're worth taking care of, like you're worth something, you know. 0.84

00:30:34.580 And to surround yourself with people who believe the same.

00:30:38.380 And who are, what, rejoicing in your accomplishments and unhappy when you fail, right.

00:30:43.940 And you're comparing yourself to your accomplishments of yesterday and not to someone else's today so that you're not jealous and bitter.

00:30:51.720 And you put your own house in order so that you're not cursing the world when some of its disarray might be your fault.

00:30:58.320 And you're trying to pursue something meaningful.

00:31:00.720 And you're doing your best to tell the truth.

00:31:02.820 And all of that.

00:31:04.000 And then you see what happens. 0.99

00:31:06.940 Who the hell are you? 0.98

00:31:08.740 You know, you think you're a miracle of some bloody bizarre sort. 0.99

00:31:12.100 We've been around for three and a half billion years.

00:31:15.560 You know, every single one of your relatives propagated successfully.

00:31:20.320 And here you are, against all possible odds, in this world of hell in some sense, and bitterness and tyranny and malevolence.

00:31:32.760 And yet, God only knows what's inside you.

00:31:35.820 This capacity for consciousness.

00:31:37.500 The capacity to confront potential.

00:31:40.060 And to turn it into something good.

00:31:42.140 That's us, man.

00:31:44.260 That's the western story.

00:31:46.220 That's the individual as the cornerstone of the state.

00:31:50.020 That's our responsibility.

00:31:51.960 And it really is who we are.

00:31:54.680 And so we need to know that.

00:31:56.240 And we need to remember it.

00:31:57.280 And we need to act it out.

00:31:59.000 And then maybe we can see what we can do about it, you know.

00:32:01.840 And see how good we can make things. 0.99

00:32:04.080 And maybe that would be the purpose of your damn life, right? 1.00

00:32:07.000 Not to be happy. 0.99

00:32:08.780 It's like, there's problems to be solved. 0.99

00:32:11.440 Be happy after you solve the goddamn things. 0.99

00:32:14.600 Right? 1.00

00:32:14.900 Right?

00:32:15.000 So I learned, because I looked at dark things, that I learned that the light was more powerful

00:32:26.440 than the darkness as far as I was concerned.

00:32:28.960 And that people were capable, each of us, of remarkable things.

00:32:33.080 And that we need to know that that's what we are.

00:32:35.780 We're this consciousness that confronts potential with all its catastrophe.

00:32:40.600 That's what we are.

00:32:41.600 That's what makes us in the image of God.

00:32:43.460 That's what gives us our intrinsic value.

00:32:46.340 And that idea that we have intrinsic value, that's the bedrock presupposition of our state.

00:32:51.740 We're going to question that, or we're going to live it out.

00:32:55.120 Better to live it out.

00:32:56.420 Find out who you are.

00:32:57.660 Thank you very much.

00:32:59.820 Thank you very much.

00:33:27.660 I'll be right back.

00:33:36.760 Thank you very much.

00:33:44.820 Going online without ExpressVPN is like not paying attention to the safety demonstration on a flight.

00:33:50.260 Most of the time, you'll probably be fine.

00:33:52.200 But what if one day that weird yellow mask drops down from overhead and you have no idea what to do?

00:33:58.160 In our hyper-connected world, your digital privacy isn't just a luxury.

00:34:01.920 It's a fundamental right.

00:34:03.220 Every time you connect to an unsecured network in a cafe, hotel, or airport,

00:34:07.480 you're essentially broadcasting your personal information to anyone with a technical know-how to intercept it.

00:34:12.540 And let's be clear, it doesn't take a genius hacker to do this.

00:34:15.720 With some off-the-shelf hardware, even a tech-savvy teenager could potentially access your passwords,

00:34:20.620 bank logins, and credit card details.

00:34:23.180 Now, you might think, what's the big deal?

00:34:25.240 Who'd want my data anyway?

00:34:26.800 Well, on the dark web, your personal information could fetch up to $1,000.

00:34:31.220 That's right, there's a whole underground economy built on stolen identities.

00:34:35.440 Enter ExpressVPN.

00:34:37.180 It's like a digital fortress, creating an encrypted tunnel between your device and the internet.

00:34:41.900 Their encryption is so robust that it would take a hacker with a supercomputer over a billion years to crack it.

00:34:47.360 But don't let its power fool you, ExpressVPN is incredibly user-friendly.

00:34:51.720 With just one click, you're protected across all your devices.

00:34:54.740 Phones, laptops, tablets, you name it.

00:34:56.920 That's why I use ExpressVPN whenever I'm traveling or working from a coffee shop.

00:35:01.060 It gives me peace of mind knowing that my research, communications, and personal data are shielded from prying eyes.

00:35:06.780 Secure your online data today by visiting expressvpn.com slash jordan.

00:35:11.780 That's E-X-P-R-E-S-S-V-P-N dot com slash jordan, and you can get an extra three months free.

00:35:18.160 Expressvpn.com slash jordan.

00:35:20.040 Starting a business can be tough, but thanks to Shopify, running your online storefront is easier than ever.

00:35:29.860 Shopify is the global commerce platform that helps you sell at every stage of your business.

00:35:34.120 From the launch your online shop stage, all the way to the did we just hit a million orders stage, Shopify is here to help you grow.

00:35:40.880 Our marketing team uses Shopify every day to sell our merchandise, and we love how easy it is to add more items, ship products, and track conversions.

00:35:48.500 With Shopify, customize your online store to your style with flexible templates and powerful tools,

00:35:54.460 alongside an endless list of integrations and third-party apps like on-demand printing, accounting, and chatbots.

00:36:00.740 Shopify helps you turn browsers into buyers with the internet's best converting checkout, up to 36% better compared to other leading e-commerce platforms.

00:36:09.100 No matter how big you want to grow, Shopify gives you everything you need to take control and take your business to the next level.

00:36:14.860 Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at shopify.com slash jbp, all lowercase.

00:36:21.240 Go to shopify.com slash jbp now to grow your business, no matter what stage you're in.

00:36:26.760 That's shopify.com slash jbp.

00:36:29.200 That's a long way to come and join you on this stage.

00:36:34.520 That's a long walk to the stage.

00:36:35.360 That is right.

00:36:37.060 I mean, you were not messing around tonight.

00:36:39.040 That was incredible, those last 20 minutes.

00:36:40.880 Just incredible.

00:36:41.600 Thank you, sir.

00:36:42.360 Thank you, sir.

00:36:47.580 All right, so now we're going to try to plow through as many questions as we can, all right?

00:36:50.980 Okay, okay.

00:36:51.680 All right, here we go.

00:36:52.740 I thought this was the most important one that I saw.

00:36:54.620 It got 73 upvotes, which was the most tonight.

00:36:56.780 Do you think Joe Rogan is as deep and sophisticated as he seems, or is he just a stoner?

00:37:08.280 I've been in a room with lots of smart people where Joe was in the same room,

00:37:14.560 and it wasn't obvious that he wasn't the smartest person in the room.

00:37:18.640 So, you know, he's one of those characters who's not, he's not a formal intellectual,

00:37:25.980 but often really smart people who have taught themselves, you know,

00:37:31.140 and sort of come up in the world through their own devices,

00:37:35.300 have an original intelligence that's not so obvious among, say,

00:37:42.560 the more classically university educated, the more cookie cutter.

00:37:46.120 And Joe, Joe is, he's a remarkable guy.

00:37:50.660 I mean, you think, he's tough as a boot.

00:37:53.560 That's the first thing.

00:37:54.440 He's a fighter.

00:37:55.640 That takes a lot of bravery.

00:37:57.280 He's damn funny. 0.52

00:37:58.900 Like, pro-level funny. 0.97

00:38:00.460 His net, and often viciously funny.

00:38:04.000 The thing he did on the Kardashians, that was just, man,

00:38:07.480 I just couldn't believe that he would go that far.

00:38:09.300 It was just, it was just, my jaw just kept opening more and more as he became more and more of,

00:38:14.520 like, he was just like, what, what, gargoyle on a bedpost, right?

00:38:18.120 Whispering in, in Jenner's ear.

00:38:21.000 Yeah, God.

00:38:22.260 Very politically incorrect.

00:38:23.600 Very funny.

00:38:24.620 And he's very brave.

00:38:26.360 And he, he knows that there's a lot of things he doesn't know.

00:38:29.400 So he's got a, a really intelligent humility.

00:38:32.440 So he'll ask intelligent questions.

00:38:34.240 And, you know, so he's been successful at, like, five things.

00:38:38.660 So, um, he's no, he's certainly not just a stoner.

00:38:43.540 That's for sure.

00:38:44.620 I got lots of respect for him.

00:38:50.200 The quick follow-up on that, obviously, is will the two of us smoke a blunt on stage?

00:38:55.780 Do you, do you have one?

00:38:59.260 I'm sure it could be a rain.

00:39:00.600 No, no, probably that wouldn't be.

00:39:06.240 I think it's still illegal here, isn't it?

00:39:09.540 Yes, it is.

00:39:10.980 Yes, it is.

00:39:12.120 One guy said no.

00:39:16.460 It's not illegal in Canada, I'll tell you.

00:39:19.740 We just, we just made it legal.

00:39:22.300 And now everyone is stoned all the time,

00:39:25.140 especially in the winter, when you should be stoned.

00:39:28.020 Do your best Aussie accent, saying, good day, mate.

00:39:36.860 No way.

00:39:38.020 I'm not doing that.

00:39:39.600 No way.

00:39:40.760 No, I can't do jokes on command.

00:39:43.140 It makes me turn red, and then I sweat.

00:39:45.520 And I have this rule that I don't say things that make me turn red and sweat.

00:39:49.460 So, which I'm doing now.

00:39:51.400 They went funny, this group.

00:39:55.040 Who would win in a cage fight between a serotonin-filled lobster and a petted house cat?

00:40:02.560 And a what house cat?

00:40:03.860 A petted, you know, because you're petting cats all the time.

00:40:07.880 Well, it would depend on the size of the lobster.

00:40:11.820 Right?

00:40:12.360 I mean, equal weight?

00:40:13.320 I'd bet on the lobster.

00:40:17.400 Equal weight, I'd bet on the lobster.

00:40:19.340 If it was a 60-pound lobster, there'd be no competition. 0.99

00:40:22.700 One snip, that'd be that.

00:40:24.540 But equal weight, the lobster would win. 0.75

00:40:27.320 I like how he can give a scientific answer to even that.

00:40:29.540 Especially underwater.

00:40:36.100 This is a good one.

00:40:36.940 What does the B in Jordan B. Peterson stand for?

00:40:41.080 It stands for Berent. 1.00

00:40:43.560 And it's a Norwegian name.

00:40:45.260 And it means bear.

00:40:47.260 And not the naked kind, the other kind.

00:40:51.260 And it was my great-grandfather's name.

00:40:56.880 And he built a boat and sailed it from Norway to New York with like 14 other people.

00:41:04.100 Yeah, so.

00:41:05.380 And he was quite the cool character.

00:41:06.620 He was a blacksmith and a bit of a mechanical engineer.

00:41:10.880 He built farm equipment for his farm in Saskatchewan.

00:41:13.820 He homesteaded there.

00:41:14.740 They built a log cabin.

00:41:15.780 They cleared the land.

00:41:17.020 It was tough work, a tough life.

00:41:19.120 And he was, he raised my father mostly.

00:41:22.000 My father admired him greatly.

00:41:23.820 He died when I was fairly young, but I remember him.

00:41:25.980 And so that's where the Berent comes from. 1.00

00:41:28.360 You're stuck on an island, and you can only bring three things.

00:41:41.440 What are they?

00:41:42.280 Well, a powerboat with a lot of gas.

00:41:49.560 Three things.

00:41:56.680 Well, an axe.

00:41:58.780 Like, obviously.

00:42:01.600 You definitely need an axe.

00:42:03.480 A knife.

00:42:04.120 That would be good.

00:42:05.940 Knife, axe. 1.00

00:42:09.360 Flint.

00:42:09.820 That would be good.

00:42:12.580 Hey, isn't it the Australian guy?

00:42:15.400 I might be wrong about this, but there's this YouTube show I watch about this guy who goes

00:42:19.940 out in the, I think in Outback, like with nothing.

00:42:23.020 He just wears shorts.

00:42:24.340 And he goes out there and like builds little cities.

00:42:26.880 You know?

00:42:27.200 What's it called?

00:42:30.680 Yeah, yeah.

00:42:31.380 That's right.

00:42:31.900 That's right.

00:42:32.740 I mean, I think that guy's absolutely unbelievable.

00:42:35.640 You know?

00:42:35.920 It's so fun to watch him.

00:42:37.220 It's like, well, I've got some shorts.

00:42:39.100 Then he goes out and he gets a stick and a rock and he makes an axe.

00:42:42.460 And then he cuts down a bunch of trees.

00:42:44.020 Small trees.

00:42:44.800 And he makes a house.

00:42:45.920 And then he builds a floor.

00:42:47.240 And then he builds like a heated floor, which is really quite cool.

00:42:50.720 And then he builds a water wheel.

00:42:52.060 And it's, it's, it's amazing.

00:42:55.860 It's amazing to watch him.

00:42:56.960 But I'd still, I'd still go for the axe.

00:42:59.160 I'd like the axe and the knife and the flint.

00:43:01.120 And I think I could maybe not die instantly if I had those three things.

00:43:06.700 Well, I'm going to read this one just because it's like, man, they've got like, you know,

00:43:10.440 the most influential public intellectual we've got.

00:43:14.100 And this was the question they came up with.

00:43:15.780 So I just have to read it.

00:43:17.520 I guess I bring my wife too, but I don't think that would make her very happy.

00:43:21.360 Imagine I was having my wishes, you know?

00:43:23.380 I'm on the island.

00:43:24.580 A genie shows up.

00:43:25.300 You get three wishes.

00:43:26.100 Axe, poof. 0.94

00:43:28.620 Knife, poof. 0.99

00:43:30.160 Wife, poof. 1.00

00:43:31.660 It's like, what the hell did you bring me to this island for? 0.95

00:43:36.080 I don't think that'd be good.

00:43:38.680 All right.

00:43:39.200 Well, wait till this one.

00:43:40.160 Who is your pick to win the WWE Universal Championship at WrestleMania this year, Seth Rollins, or will Brock Lesnar retain?

00:43:53.340 Oh, it's Brock.

00:43:54.220 It's Brock for sure.

00:43:55.440 It's Brock.

00:43:56.200 I have no idea who Brock is, by the way.

00:44:00.340 The name that is, that was right.

00:44:04.300 All right.

00:44:04.720 Let's shift gears a little bit.

00:44:06.140 How many upvotes did that question get?

00:44:08.000 That one got 12.

00:44:10.760 12.

00:44:11.520 It's like 12.

00:44:12.280 That's really what 12 of you wanted to know.

00:44:17.180 You don't want to know how many you're asking what kind of underwear you wear.

00:44:19.580 I'll tell you what kind of underwear I'm wearing.

00:44:24.460 All right.

00:44:25.200 I've never done this before.

00:44:26.660 All right.

00:44:27.220 Look.

00:44:28.040 You're going to do it now.

00:44:28.460 But it's funny.

00:44:29.580 My wife bought me underwear with mousse on them.

00:44:34.320 And so, I have to tell you that, because that's a Canadian thing.

00:44:38.300 Like, underwear.

00:44:40.300 Not underwear.

00:44:41.840 Like, underwear with mousse.

00:44:43.500 And so, I just couldn't believe she bought me these.

00:44:45.540 And they're actually quite nice, which I also can't believe, because I don't understand

00:44:49.420 how red underwear covered with mousse can also be nice.

00:44:54.100 But as far as underwear go, they beat the hell out of tighty-whities. 0.98

00:45:00.060 Says the guy wearing a blue tie with lobsters on it.

00:45:03.700 Hey, well, I keep getting these as gifts, man.

00:45:05.740 You can't believe how much lobster-themed clothing there is.

00:45:15.540 All right.

00:45:16.280 Let's shift gears a little bit.

00:45:18.960 Has the sudden rise to fame overinflated your ego?

00:45:23.120 And if so, how do you regulate it?

00:45:26.180 Oh, I'm married.

00:45:27.160 I'm married.

00:45:36.900 Well, and, you know, more importantly, I'm married to someone who's very sensible.

00:45:40.280 You know, and she doesn't let things go to her head, really.

00:45:45.280 She doesn't get overly upset and desperate when things are overly upsetting and desperate.

00:45:54.020 And she doesn't get overly enthusiastic and narcissistic when things are going well.

00:46:02.140 She's very level-headed.

00:46:03.540 And, you know, and we've been through a lot.

00:46:08.660 We're not kids, my wife and I.

00:46:10.720 We're both damn near 60, you know.

00:46:12.820 And we've had our kids, and we have grandkids,

00:46:15.860 and we've traveled all over the world and met all sorts of people and done all sorts of things.

00:46:21.280 And so, you know, we're reasonably sensible.

00:46:24.280 And to the degree that we're not, we sort of butt up against each other

00:46:28.460 and try to make ourselves slightly more sensible than we are.

00:46:32.840 And so, that's helpful.

00:46:34.940 And also, over the last couple of years, you know, I've had people,

00:46:40.120 I've been watching very carefully because, well, especially for the first year and a half,

00:46:45.440 because I was always one utterance away from complete bloody disaster.

00:46:50.280 And so, I was watching what I was saying and doing very carefully.

00:46:54.120 But I had people around me who were doing the same.

00:46:56.700 You know, my wife being foremost, my two kids who are both awake, you know, and careful.

00:47:02.960 And they were keeping a close eye on things.

00:47:04.920 And my parents are still alive, and they were watching as well.

00:47:09.140 And I have a group of friends, some of whom, I lost some friends, but I kept a number of them.

00:47:14.700 And they were watching very carefully and letting me know when I was not, you know, a little too angry maybe,

00:47:22.060 or a little too acerbic or arrogant, all those things.

00:47:30.820 They'd let me know right away.

00:47:32.740 And so, and I've been a psychologist for a long time.

00:47:37.660 And I know, especially from reading Carl Jung about the danger of ego inflation.

00:47:42.220 It's not something that you want to mess with.

00:47:45.400 It's very dangerous.

00:47:46.600 And, you know, I tell these archetypal stories a lot.

00:47:50.120 And I learned from Jung 30 years ago that knowing the stories doesn't make you the archetype.

00:47:59.040 And that's very, very, very important to understand, you know.

00:48:02.460 And so I try to be cognizant of my shortcomings, which are manifold, and to be grateful.

00:48:10.580 That's a good thing.

00:48:11.640 You know, like tonight, here you all are, and I'm really happy about that, pleased about that.

00:48:17.600 And I would say, grateful is a rough word to use, because it's kind of, it's been overused, you know.

00:48:23.360 It's been used by people who, it's been used to signal a virtue that is non-existent often.

00:48:31.060 But I am grateful for this, because it's so unlikely, you know, that there's 5,500 of us here sitting together

00:48:39.140 in peace and tranquility and harmony, trying to think hard about what we should be doing in our lives

00:48:46.840 and how we can make ourselves better in a non-naive and non, what would you call it?

00:48:54.560 It's that, there's a kind of striving for goodness that isn't virtuous.

00:49:04.580 And I think it's the praying in public kind.

00:49:07.500 It's the I'm against poverty sign kind.

00:49:10.640 I'm hoping what this is, is that it's the old original sin kind.

00:49:15.780 You know, it's like, yeah, Christ, there's plenty wrong with me.

00:49:18.940 And I include myself in this all the time, you know.

00:49:21.560 I know there's plenty wrong with me.

00:49:23.020 It's like, it'd be good if something could be done about it, even a little bit.

00:49:26.480 And maybe that would make things a bit better for everybody.

00:49:29.280 And maybe that's a noble goal.

00:49:30.900 And maybe we can come and have a serious conversation about that for two hours and think hard about it.

00:49:36.820 And maybe we can turn around our lives a little bit.

00:49:40.040 And, and, because I think we can do that.

00:49:42.400 And, and that it's possible for each person to make things around them way better than they are.

00:49:48.940 You know, not always, because sometimes you're in such a dire goddamn situation that, that basically all you've got is a hope for slightly less hell.

00:49:59.280 You know, but man, you can make a huge difference in your life to take care of yourself properly. 0.82

00:50:05.920 And a huge difference in your family's life.

00:50:08.040 And a huge difference in your community's life.

00:50:10.280 And, and it would be so good if we could, people wonder, well, what's the meaning of life?

00:50:15.040 Like, what's it all about?

00:50:16.160 What's, what justifies the suffering and the misery and all of that?

00:50:19.600 It's like, well, that's what justifies it.

00:50:22.320 It's like you put yourself up against that.

00:50:24.200 You think, okay, all, with all of this pushing against me, how much can I push back?

00:50:30.360 Could I move the horror an inch back with, with all the strength that I have at my disposal?

00:50:36.320 Man, and the answer to that is, yeah, you can.

00:50:40.280 It, it, it makes you better with regards to yourself, but it also makes the world a better place.

00:50:46.580 And so, well, so, you know, more of that.

00:50:50.360 And, and you don't want to be, you don't want to be, you don't want to be,

00:50:54.200 narcissistic or, or egotistic about that, because it just gets in the way, you know.

00:51:00.100 And one of the things I learned from, from Solzhenitsyn, this was an unbelievably useful, man.

00:51:05.040 This is a pronoun thing.

00:51:06.960 This is a pronoun thing.

00:51:11.060 About 30 years ago, I came across this website that was, that had been produced by this guy

00:51:16.640 who was a paranoid schizophrenic.

00:51:18.420 And he was an aerospace engineer in England. 0.97

00:51:20.680 And he was no fool.

00:51:22.780 He's a real genius. 0.64

00:51:23.680 He put together a really interesting site.

00:51:25.900 And he had this delusion.

00:51:27.340 He had developed this delusion that he was the center of the world.

00:51:31.180 And he had this really complicated explanation, because he lived in the geographic center of

00:51:35.760 England.

00:51:36.680 And he thought of England as the center of the word that had spread around the world.

00:51:41.580 And he lived right in the middle of the town that was in the geographic center.

00:51:44.820 And so, his schizophrenic fantasy had put him at the center of the world.

00:51:51.040 The center.

00:51:52.140 And he'd made a very elaborate webpage about all of this.

00:51:56.320 And then, and so I was thinking about that, this, the center of the world.

00:52:03.960 I was also reading Solzhenitsyn at the same time.

00:52:06.140 And Solzhenitsyn said, you know, that the world is constituted.

00:52:09.840 And this is the, this is one of the fundamental axioms of Western civilization, is the world

00:52:14.900 is constituted so that each person is a center of the world.

00:52:20.960 Like, literally.

00:52:22.420 That, we can't understand this, because we can't understand how something could be constructed

00:52:27.340 so that that could be the case.

00:52:28.660 Because we're used to things having one center.

00:52:30.820 But the universe isn't like that.

00:52:32.600 It has multiple centers.

00:52:34.080 Every conscious being is a center.

00:52:37.240 And, and a center of, of, of infinite scope in some sense.

00:52:41.540 You know, like bounded, but, but infinite.

00:52:44.020 Which is also very difficult to understand.

00:52:46.600 And, and, there's a big difference between being the center of the world, and a center of

00:52:55.220 the world.

00:52:55.620 So, if you remember that you're a center of the world, then you stay sane.

00:53:01.540 But as soon as you start thinking that you're the center of the world, well then, you know,

00:53:05.580 you're, you're just done.

00:53:07.580 And, and it's not going to be helpful.

00:53:09.340 And like, even if you are doing the best you can, you know, you invite everyone else along.

00:53:15.840 It's like, I'm doing the best I can, but there's way more work to do, man.

00:53:19.000 And we're, everybody needs to participate.

00:53:22.220 And everybody's participation.

00:53:23.660 That's the other thing that's so weird about it.

00:53:26.640 Everybody's participation is vital.

00:53:29.040 There isn't anybody that, it isn't okay for anyone not to be in the game.

00:53:35.860 You know, and, and I don't understand that exactly as well.

00:53:39.000 But that also has something to do with our, like our being made in the image of God.

00:53:43.420 And, and the central value and divinity of our consciousness.

00:53:48.240 The consciousness that gives rise to being itself.

00:53:51.300 These are truths, you know.

00:53:53.520 These are truths.

00:53:55.440 It's consciousness that gives rise to being from, from, from possibility.

00:54:00.140 And, and, and, and that's us.

00:54:02.000 That's what we do.

00:54:03.320 And we decide, is it going to be better or is it going to be worse?

00:54:06.440 And if it's better, well, that's on you, man.

00:54:09.140 Because you made it a little better.

00:54:10.320 And if it's worse, that's on you too.

00:54:12.120 And that's your destiny every day.

00:54:13.920 And that's what gives you your intrinsic value.

00:54:16.160 And the, and the, and the meaning of your life.

00:54:19.000 The significance of your life.

00:54:20.480 And the effect of you on the structure of reality itself.

00:54:25.280 That's all, that's all you.

00:54:27.580 And it's a miracle, you know.

00:54:29.440 And, and, and that is why I believe fully.

00:54:32.000 That's why it says in the, in Genesis that human beings are made in the image of God.

00:54:36.180 God is what extracts order from chaos, from potential.

00:54:39.980 It's like, I don't, I think that that's, I don't think that can be said in any way that's more true than that.

00:54:50.480 And it's, it's a hell of a thing to contemplate.

00:54:53.020 And especially when you think that you actually believe it.

00:54:55.960 You know, because you do believe that you have intrinsic value.

00:54:58.560 Our whole legal system is predicated on the idea that you have intrinsic value.

00:55:02.300 Even if you're a murderer.

00:55:03.920 Even if you're accused of something absolutely highness.

00:55:06.680 There's still something about you that has value outside of the dictates of the state.

00:55:12.000 And you treat other people like that.

00:55:13.700 You know, if you're going to have a friendship with someone.

00:55:15.680 Or an intimate relationship.

00:55:17.360 Or a love for a child or a parent.

00:55:19.580 You treat them as if they have intrinsic and transcendent value.

00:55:24.960 It's like, well, is it true or not?

00:55:27.300 And if it's true, well, maybe it's an, it's an, maybe it's an inexhaustible source from which you can draw.

00:55:34.540 It's possible.

00:55:36.120 It seems to be the case.

00:55:38.040 And it, it's worth the experiment.

00:55:40.120 Because like, what the hell else do you have to do that's better than to try that?

00:55:44.660 And so, yeah, so that's that answer.

00:55:55.280 Well, here's a segue.

00:55:57.660 Will you run for Prime Minister of Australia?

00:56:00.120 People ask me that in different places.

00:56:06.360 I've talked to lots of politicians.

00:56:10.880 And I'm talking to more of them all the time.

00:56:13.520 And I'm interested in, I'm not interested in politics so much.

00:56:18.220 I don't think I have the temperament for it, to tell you the truth.

00:56:20.940 Because I don't think I could take the, I don't really think I could take the, what is it?

00:56:27.520 The, it's sort of the vicious boxing.

00:56:31.020 You know, like, I have a reputation, I guess, of enjoying conflict.

00:56:37.000 But I don't enjoy conflict.

00:56:38.940 At all.

00:56:39.920 It really bothers me, actually.

00:56:43.580 But I don't shy away from it.

00:56:46.860 Either.

00:56:47.780 And that's because I know that sometimes, and this is what I've learned from being a clinical psychologist in part.

00:56:53.580 A serious clinical psychologist is like, if I walk into a room and there's trouble,

00:56:59.400 I'm not going to pretend that the trouble isn't there.

00:57:02.520 I won't do that.

00:57:04.100 I'll point it out.

00:57:05.960 And so that kind of makes me annoying, often.

00:57:08.740 And, but I can't stand it.

00:57:10.460 If I can see it and everyone's pretending, you know, there's an elephant under the carpet.

00:57:14.220 And everyone is shifting in their chairs as the elephant moves. 0.98

00:57:17.280 And they're all smiling away, stupidly, as if everything's okay. 0.97

00:57:20.440 It's like, I'm not doing that. 0.99

00:57:21.900 I'm going to point it out.

00:57:23.580 And I don't like that, because it's usually not an elephant either. 0.86

00:57:27.400 It's usually some god-awful monster.

00:57:29.220 And it's been there for a long time.

00:57:30.760 And no one wants to admit to its existence.

00:57:34.000 And so that makes for difficult conversations.

00:57:36.860 But I don't enjoy them.

00:57:38.240 But I know perfectly well that things that you hide grow.

00:57:41.860 And I enjoy that a hell of a lot less.

00:57:43.820 And so, anyways, I'm not interested in politics, I don't believe.

00:57:49.680 Because I don't think I have the temperament for it.

00:57:51.720 But I am interested in aims.

00:57:54.120 And I am interested in trying to figure out what we should be aiming at.

00:57:57.920 Because we need a new story, you know.

00:57:59.500 Like, we're all bloody petrified in one way or another.

00:58:03.760 And cynical about the possibility of multiple apocalypses.

00:58:08.080 Because one isn't enough.

00:58:09.920 And we don't have a counter story.

00:58:12.520 It's like, okay.

00:58:13.520 Well, here's a bunch of ways that things could go to hell in a hand basket.

00:58:16.480 It's like, well, what could we build instead?

00:58:18.800 You know?

00:58:19.460 Who knows what we could do?

00:58:20.820 We could irrigate all the world's deserts.

00:58:23.200 You know?

00:58:23.660 That might be a good thing to do.

00:58:25.080 I mean, maybe we want some desert.

00:58:26.700 That'd be...

00:58:27.340 We could keep some desert. 0.99

00:58:28.460 But we could irrigate the damn deserts if we could get our... 0.97

00:58:32.260 If we could become sophisticated enough with regards to our technological use of energy. 0.97

00:58:39.000 It's not like we're going to run out of energy.

00:58:40.800 It's like the world's...

00:58:42.080 The universe is made out of energy and matter.

00:58:44.540 We're not going to run out of it.

00:58:46.580 You know?

00:58:46.880 I mean, and we could make sure everybody had a high quality education.

00:58:51.080 And that child mortality was cut to almost nothing.

00:58:53.460 And that we were taking full advantage of everyone's talents to the best of our ability.

00:58:58.340 And, like, I'm interested in establishing these aims.

00:59:02.920 And so, and I am working on that with all sorts of people.

00:59:05.800 In Canada and the United States and to some degree in Australia and in other countries.

00:59:09.760 Trying to understand, well, we need a noble aim for Christ's sake.

00:59:14.720 What the hell?

00:59:15.400 We've got all this technological power.

00:59:17.640 And it's multiplying like mad.

00:59:19.600 And all this wealth.

00:59:21.060 It's like, what could we make the world into?

00:59:24.160 Let's find out.

00:59:27.460 What the hell? 0.98

00:59:29.440 You know? 0.87

00:59:29.960 We've got to stake our lives on something.

00:59:31.900 And that's better than politics, that.

00:59:34.260 It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's better than, it's a better role for me.

00:59:43.320 All right.

00:59:43.860 So we've got time for one more.

00:59:47.260 What is a great day for Jordan Peterson look like?

00:59:50.560 Well, there's a couple of kinds of great days, I would say.

00:59:55.820 It's a great day if I have a chance to spend it with my, with my wife and my kids.

01:00:04.360 That's, that's generally a great day.

01:00:06.780 I get along very well with my kids.

01:00:08.480 And I get along as well as anybody would want to with my wife.

01:00:12.700 And so, well, and I say that specifically because, you know, if you, if you're fortunate

01:00:20.060 in your partner, you have someone to contend with.

01:00:23.420 Not, not someone that you just always get along with.

01:00:27.000 You have someone that you're, you know, you're, you're, you're contending with.

01:00:31.960 There's a story in, in the Abrahamic stories where it's, it's, it's, it's Joseph, Joseph?

01:00:37.580 Jacob.

01:00:38.260 Jacob becomes Israel, I believe. 0.79

01:00:41.020 I'm hoping that's right.

01:00:41.940 And he's kind of a trickster and, and, and, and he causes all sorts of trouble.

01:00:46.280 And at one point, um, when he's going back to reconcile himself with his estranged brother,

01:00:52.740 he sends his family across the river and is laying on the banks alone.

01:00:56.800 And an angel comes to wrestle with him.

01:00:59.300 It's actually God.

01:01:00.380 And they wrestle all night.

01:01:02.620 And weirdly enough, Jacob wins.

01:01:05.020 And God dislocates his hip because he's God, you know, he's, he's not going to let you just

01:01:10.060 walk away.

01:01:10.880 So he dislocates his hip.

01:01:13.220 And, and then he renames him Israel.

01:01:16.080 And Israel means he who struggles with God.

01:01:18.980 And, and that's something really worth knowing, man.

01:01:21.580 You know, because what that means is that at the basis of our most profound stories is the

01:01:27.120 notion that the founder of the holy state is the person who wrestles with God.

01:01:33.340 And that doesn't mean believe in God, you know, it, that, it, that isn't what it means.

01:01:37.840 It means contends.

01:01:39.740 It's like, this is, this is, this, this, this, this reality that confronts us is a rough and

01:01:45.080 harsh place, right?

01:01:46.580 It's, it's, it's not for, it's not for the weak of heart.

01:01:49.660 It's not for the faint of heart.

01:01:51.380 It's for, it's for the person who wants to step forward and contend.

01:01:55.480 And it turns out that if you're that person, you wrestle with God, which means that you

01:02:00.260 try to defeat it.

01:02:01.640 Defeat, there's a, there's a victim, an attempt to be, to attain victory, even over God of all

01:02:08.700 the strange things.

01:02:09.700 And that's what makes you part of the holy state.

01:02:12.920 It's like, it's an, it's an unbelievable idea.

01:02:16.280 And I, I think it's so realistic that you want something to contend with, you know?

01:02:21.860 And if you have a good marriage, and maybe if you have good friendships for that matter,

01:02:26.340 you have someone to contend with.

01:02:28.520 And in my wife, I have someone to contend with.

01:02:31.220 And it's the case with my children as well.

01:02:33.060 Not to the same degree, because they're my children.

01:02:35.740 But it's a good day when I have a chance to spend it with them.

01:02:39.280 And then, this is a good day.

01:02:42.300 You know, which is why we keep doing this.

01:02:44.880 You know, like, I think all the days we've done this have been good.

01:02:48.700 Don't you think?

01:02:49.360 Yeah, it's been good.

01:02:50.080 It's been unbelievable, man.

01:02:51.620 I mean, and, and, it's, and I do mean literally unbelievable.

01:02:55.880 Every night you think, wow, wow, really, this is going to happen again?

01:02:59.560 We're going to, we're going to, like, bring 3,000 people together, and this is what we're

01:03:05.360 going to talk about?

01:03:06.680 And, and it's going to be serious?

01:03:08.560 And we're going to, like, aim high, and, and, and think critically, and have a genuine

01:03:14.560 discussion?

01:03:15.180 And, and everyone's going to be, like, locked onto that?

01:03:18.780 That's amazing.

01:03:20.260 And so, yeah, these are good days, which is why we keep doing them.

01:03:23.900 And so, those are two kinds of good days.

01:03:26.460 And, and, and, and I'm fortunate to have them with a fair degree of regularity.

01:03:31.380 So.

01:03:41.520 Well, that right there is how you circle up a show.

01:03:44.640 So, I'm going to get out of the way and make some noise for Dr. Jordan Peterson, everybody.

01:03:48.800 Thank you guys for coming out tonight.

01:03:50.300 Thanks, Steve.

01:03:56.260 Thank you, everyone.

01:04:20.080 Much appreciated.

01:04:22.860 It's very good of you to take the time to come out tonight.

01:04:25.780 And it was a great pleasure to be here in Melbourne.

01:04:30.640 And I'll be back, I guess, in two weeks.

01:04:35.040 Good night.

01:04:35.700 If you found this conversation meaningful, you might think about picking up Dad's books,

01:04:40.880 Maps of Meaning, The Architecture of Belief, or his newer bestseller, 12 Rules for Life,

01:04:45.060 An Antidote to Chaos.

01:04:46.360 Both of these works delve much deeper into the topics covered in the Jordan B. Peterson podcast.

01:04:50.560 See JordanBPeterson.com for audio, e-book, and text links, or pick up the books at your favorite bookseller.

01:04:56.380 Remember to check out JordanBPeterson.com slash personality for information on his new course.

01:05:00.880 Follow me on my YouTube channel, JordanBPeterson, on Twitter, at JordanBPeterson, on Facebook, at DrJordanBPeterson, and at Instagram, at Jordan.B.Peterson.

01:05:13.380 Details on this show, access to my blog, information about my tour dates and other events, and my list of recommended books can be found on my website, JordanBPeterson.com.

01:05:26.080 My online writing programs, designed to help people straighten out their pasts, understand themselves in the present, and develop a sophisticated vision and strategy for the future, can be found at SelfAuthoring.com.

01:05:38.940 That's SelfAuthoring.com.

01:05:41.140 From the Westwood One Podcast Network.

01:05:51.760 In today's chaotic world, many of us are searching for a way to aim higher and find spiritual peace.

01:05:57.760 But here's the thing.

01:05:58.960 Prayer, the most common tool we have, isn't just about saying whatever comes to mind.

01:06:03.100 It's a skill that needs to be developed.

01:06:05.440 That's where Hallow comes in.

01:06:06.840 As the number one prayer and meditation app, Hallow is launching an exceptional new series called How to Pray.

01:06:13.140 Imagine learning how to use scripture as a launchpad for profound conversations with God.

01:06:18.080 How to properly enter into imaginative prayer.

01:06:20.900 And how to incorporate prayers reaching far back in church history.

01:06:25.100 This isn't your average guided meditation.

01:06:26.780 It's a comprehensive two-week journey into the heart of prayer, led by some of the most respected spiritual leaders of our time.

01:06:34.220 From guests including Bishop Robert Barron, Father Mike Schmitz, and Jonathan Rumi, known for his role as Jesus in the hit series The Chosen,

01:06:41.420 you'll discover prayer techniques that have stood the test of time while equipping yourself with the tools needed to face life's challenges with renewed strength.

01:06:49.820 Ready to revolutionize your prayer life?

01:06:51.900 You can check out the new series as well as an extensive catalog of guided prayers when you download the Hallow app.

01:06:58.080 Just go to Hallow.com slash Jordan and download the Hallow app today for an exclusive three-month trial.

01:07:03.960 That's Hallow.com slash Jordan.

01:07:06.320 Elevate your prayer life today.

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - February 09, 2020

Playing the Hierarchical Game - Part two

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript