Playing the Hierarchical Game - Part two
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 7 minutes
Words per Minute
171.24727
Summary
In this episode, Mikayla Peterson shares updates on her family's journey through the last year and a half of her father's battle with anxiety and depression. She also provides an update on his recovery from a benzodiazepine addiction and the progress that has been made in the past month. Dr. Jordan Peterson has created a new series that could be a lifeline for those battling depression and anxiety. With decades of experience helping patients, Dr. Peterson offers a unique understanding of why you might be feeling this way, and a roadmap towards healing. In his new series, he provides a roadmap toward healing, showing that while the journey isn t easy, it s absolutely possible to find your way forward. If you're suffering, please know you are not alone. There's hope and there's a path to feeling better. Go to Dailywire Plus now and start watching Jordan B. Peterson's new series on Depression and Anxiety. Let this be the first step towards the brighter future you deserve. Thank you for all the support, and stay tuned for more updates on the Petersons journey in the coming weeks and months. Stay tuned for Part 2 of Playing the Hierarchical Game Part 2, "A Lesson for Life: Part 1: Playing The Hierarchy by Jordan B Peterson." Part 2 will be released next Wednesday, February 20th, 2019. Thanks again for all of the support and love, and words of encouragement. I can t wait to hear from all of you! - Dr. B. Peterson and your continued support is so appreciated and appreciated. - Thank you so much! - Eternally grateful, Dr. J.B. Peterson - Krista (and your support is truly means the world to me and I am so grateful for the support you all have given me the chance to do so much more than I can do in this life, and I m so grateful to be here. - J.A. (and so much so that I can help you all the more than you can do that in this world, thank you, I can't wait to be a part of it, and so much that you can help me, I love you, too much more, I hope you do it, I really do it more than that, so much, and you can be more than just that, you do that, etc., etc., and I appreciate you, etc. - thank you all so much.
Transcript
00:00:00.000
Hey everyone, real quick before you skip, I want to talk to you about something serious and important.
00:00:06.480
Dr. Jordan Peterson has created a new series that could be a lifeline for those battling depression and anxiety.
00:00:12.740
We know how isolating and overwhelming these conditions can be, and we wanted to take a moment to reach out to those listening who may be struggling.
00:00:20.100
With decades of experience helping patients, Dr. Peterson offers a unique understanding of why you might be feeling this way in his new series.
00:00:27.420
He provides a roadmap towards healing, showing that while the journey isn't easy, it's absolutely possible to find your way forward.
00:00:35.360
If you're suffering, please know you are not alone. There's hope, and there's a path to feeling better.
00:00:41.780
Go to Daily Wire Plus now and start watching Dr. Jordan B. Peterson on depression and anxiety.
00:00:47.460
Let this be the first step towards the brighter future you deserve.
00:00:50.980
Welcome to the Jordan B. Peterson podcast. I'm Mikayla Peterson, Jordan's daughter.
00:01:02.320
I've put up a YouTube video on my dad's channel that goes into detail about the last year of hell the Petersons have had to experience.
00:01:10.420
If you listen to this podcast often, you know I usually give family updates.
00:01:14.240
I haven't for the last month, and I'm about to tell you why.
00:01:16.800
You can go to YouTube to check out the most recent update, but I'll also just read the script I used for the video to make it easier for you.
00:01:25.560
The last year has been absolute hell for the Petersons.
00:01:28.140
Dad was put on a low dose of a benzodiazepine a few years ago for anxiety following an extremely severe autoimmune reaction to food.
00:01:37.460
Last April, when my mom was diagnosed with terminal cancer, the dose of the medication was increased.
00:01:42.140
It became apparent that he was suffering from both a physical dependency and a paradoxical reaction to the medication.
00:01:48.060
Paradoxical reaction means the drugs do the opposite of what they're supposed to.
00:01:54.780
For the last eight months, he's been in unbearable discomfort from this drug, made worse when trying to remove it,
00:02:00.780
because of the addition of withdrawal symptoms stemming from physical dependence.
00:02:04.140
He experienced terrible akathisia, which is a condition where the person feels an incredible, endless, irresistible restlessness, bordering on panic, and an inability to sit still.
00:02:16.540
After several failed treatment attempts in North American hospitals, including attempts at tapering and microtapering,
00:02:22.420
we had to seek an emergency medical benzodiazepine detox, which we were only able to find in Russia.
00:02:27.800
It was incredibly grueling and was further complicated by severe pneumonia, which we've been told he developed in one of the previous hospitals.
00:02:35.600
He's had to spend four weeks in the ICU in terrible shape, but with the help of some extremely competent and courageous doctors, he survived.
00:02:42.620
The decision to bring him to Russia was made in extreme desperation, when we couldn't find any better options.
00:02:47.960
The uncertainty around his recovery has been one of the most difficult and scary experiences we've ever had.
00:02:52.180
So, finally, dad is on the mend, even though there's a lot of physiological damage that he needs to recover from.
00:02:59.080
He's improving and is off of the horrible medication.
00:03:03.500
He's smiling again for the first time in months, but he still has a long way to go to recover fully.
00:03:08.400
It appears that we're going to get through this by the skin of our teeth, so let me make a couple of things clear.
00:03:13.360
One, neither our family nor the doctors here believe that this was a case of psychological addiction.
00:03:18.340
Two, benzodiazepine physical dependence, due to brain changes, can occur in a matter of weeks.
00:03:24.160
It can be made even worse by paradoxical reactions that are difficult to diagnose and can be extremely difficult.
00:03:29.780
We've been told and hoped that dad will recover fully, but it will take time and he still has a ways to go.
00:03:35.200
We are extremely lucky and grateful that he's alive.
00:03:37.440
The next update will come from him directly on YouTube.
00:03:42.980
I wouldn't wish the hell dad experienced this year on my worst enemy.
00:03:46.520
So, that's why we're in Russia, and that's why there have been no updates for a number of weeks.
00:03:51.680
We really didn't know if he was going to survive.
00:03:55.440
So, today's episode is a 12 Rules for Life lecture called Playing the Hierarchical Game Part 2.
00:04:04.160
It was recorded in Melbourne, Australia on February 13th, 2019.
00:04:09.960
Playing the Hierarchical Game Part 2, a Jordan B. Peterson 12 Rules for Life lecture.
00:04:20.420
We have to be more sophisticated than economists were 150 years ago when we talk about inequality.
00:04:26.260
And when we talk about hierarchy, we also have to be more sophisticated because we have to start to understand
00:04:32.060
what it means for there to be a human hierarchy and the basis upon which hierarchies actually establish themselves
00:04:41.060
if they're going to be playable, iterable, civilized, productive, sustainable, what?
00:04:55.260
And I think that if we use a little bit of sense, we can figure that out too.
00:05:00.120
And I like to use the example of plumbers because I actually happen to like plumbers.
00:05:04.960
Partly because I don't like it when my basement is full of sewage.
00:05:10.540
And you call a plumber and then that doesn't happen.
00:05:18.720
And plumbers have done an awful lot for the world.
00:05:20.980
And there's a big difference between a good plumber and a bad plumber.
00:05:39.420
Maybe taking some solder off some pipes underneath the sink.
00:05:43.760
But he lit the wall on fire which wasn't helpful because the wall wasn't on fire before he showed up.
00:05:50.460
And so, and then, and then he forgot to shut the water off at the main pipe when he took the tap apart.
00:05:57.620
And so then, apart from the fact that my wall was charred, my bathroom was completely covered with water.
00:06:03.660
And then he sort of panicked and he put the thing back together, the tap back together with the, with the, with the washer.
00:06:12.720
And he shut it off and he turned, he had figured out to turn the water off at the main valve by then.
00:06:19.580
And it was like, now the wall was on fire and the floor was covered with water.
00:06:25.060
And there was five times as much water running out of the tap.
00:06:31.880
I joked with my wife that he was an anti-plumber.
00:06:34.400
You know, like, like, like an anti-matter plumber.
00:06:37.660
And if he ever met a real plumber on the road and shook his hand, they'd both disappear in a puff of light.
00:06:47.100
And, you know, and then another plumber, we were, we were redoing our house in Toronto.
00:06:52.180
And it was the day before the drywallers were supposed to come in.
00:06:57.200
Because drywallers, like, they're fun to watch, man.
00:06:59.940
They zip in, they lift up their piece of drywall.
00:07:08.240
And, but they're really fast and they don't muck about.
00:07:10.360
And so you have to be ready for the drywallers.
00:07:12.160
And so this guy had redone all our pipes, PVC, plastic pipe.
00:07:15.700
And you put this, that together with a kind of solvent, hey.
00:07:18.600
So you just put solvent on one end of the pipe, the male end.
00:07:21.940
And you put it into the female end with some solvent.
00:07:42.880
And this was the day before the drywallers were supposed to show up.
00:07:46.180
And then also we found that he had put a lot of the pipes outside of the wall where the drywall was going to be.
00:07:52.160
Which actually also constitutes a mistake, right?
00:07:57.100
But, but my house isn't a house where there's plumbing sticking randomly out of the walls.
00:08:03.280
So we had to spend the whole night redoing all the joints and cutting the pipes and, you know, putting them the way they were supposed to.
00:08:13.560
And so we're going to make the case that they're bad plumbers, you know.
00:08:24.660
They make things worse because that's worse than just not skilled.
00:08:27.900
And then you could say, well, maybe they lie to you when, when they deal with you.
00:08:33.720
And maybe they don't treat their employees very well.
00:08:36.420
You know, and maybe they're not good to live with at home either.
00:08:41.860
And so we're going to say that just in the plumbing domain, which is an important domain, skill matters.
00:08:49.320
And then we might say the same thing about, well, what?
00:08:53.660
Like, if you ever need a lawyer, I would recommend that you get a good one.
00:08:57.020
Because if you get a bad one, it's going to cost you a lot more than if you get a good one.
00:09:03.280
And, you know, there are good teachers and not so good teachers.
00:09:12.560
And then there are surgeons that will definitely kill you.
00:09:16.220
And you, you want to go to one that won't kill you.
00:09:18.780
That's, that's the, and you, you'd assume difference in skill.
00:09:22.180
You know, and whatever your occupation is, you know bloody well.
00:09:28.120
And, like, some short order cooks can whip up a pretty damn decent breakfast in three
00:09:33.260
And you're pretty bloody happy to sit there and eat it.
00:09:35.940
And other short order cooks can produce some god awful mess of, of burnt eggs and wretched
00:09:42.100
toast and rancid bacon and orange juice that's, like, had a crayon dipped in it for the color.
00:09:47.200
And with, with a really ornery, uh, waitress and coffee that's been cooking since, like, 1953.
00:09:54.360
And there's a, that's a big difference in short order cooks.
00:10:00.520
And so one of the things we might point out is that part of the reason that we have hierarchies
00:10:04.960
in the West is because people actually differ in skill.
00:10:10.140
Some people are better at whatever it is they're supposed to be doing than other people.
00:10:14.960
And we think that what they're supposed to be doing is important so that it matters that
00:10:25.880
Like, if you look at what predicts long-term success from a psychological perspective in a
00:10:30.600
given occupation, conscientiousness is the best personality predictor.
00:10:35.380
And conscientious people are dutiful and hardworking.
00:10:37.720
And they have integrity and they do what they say they're going to do.
00:10:41.140
And so that's the best predictor, second best predictor.
00:10:45.460
And so it looks like in a relatively complicated occupation, if you're going to be successful
00:10:51.080
in a Western culture, the best predictors of your success is whether you're intelligent,
00:10:59.500
Like, how else would you want it to be if you're going to set it up?
00:11:04.080
And it isn't power because agreeableness is another dimension.
00:11:09.320
Men are more disagreeable than women, by the way.
00:11:11.740
And if our society was fundamentally based on power, then the most disagreeable people
00:11:20.740
They're the ones that are most likely to be in prison.
00:11:27.980
And then, you know, the other thing is, is you don't have, you imagine, well, our society
00:11:39.180
And so what you do is you go out in the street, or maybe you don't, maybe you cower at home,
00:11:43.460
and these like gangs of plumbers come to your house.
00:11:45.960
And they're armed to the damn teeth with their pipes.
00:11:48.900
And they say, look, I don't know whether you need like some plumbing work done or not,
00:11:53.220
but maybe we'll come in here and break a few things so that, so that you do need it.
00:11:57.140
But even if we're not going to do that, it's like, we're the plumbers that are going to
00:12:02.920
And so the next time the toilet overflows, man, here's the number, and you better put
00:12:10.420
Or, you know, the same is the case of like gang-affiliated massage therapists.
00:12:21.240
And roaming the streets, making bloody sure that if you have a stiff neck, that the most
00:12:26.740
powerful massage therapist is the one that you're going to call first.
00:12:35.720
Now, it is the case that even in a hierarchy that's functional, the thing can go sideways.
00:12:44.620
You know, you get companies that get too big, they start to get corrupt.
00:12:47.940
People who play politics and who are good at manipulating start to rise up the hierarchy.
00:12:53.420
The structure stops performing its function, its useful function in the way that it should.
00:13:04.000
You know, like the typical Fortune 500 company only lasts 30 years.
00:13:07.540
And the typical family fortune only three generations.
00:13:09.840
It's not that easy to keep a functional enterprise going.
00:13:29.900
It's not like there aren't people who are foolish and blind.
00:13:32.780
And hire and fire based on attributes that have nothing to do with competence.
00:13:38.560
But that's a sign of the deterioration of the system and the corruption of the system.
00:13:43.380
And not an indication of its fundamental function.
00:13:46.520
And it's also the case that, and this is partly what I tried to outline in rule one.
00:13:51.600
Which is pretty much the rule we're going to discuss today.
00:13:54.380
Part of your goal, if you want to take your place in the hierarchy properly, is to be a good person.
00:14:04.120
And that was the argument I was trying to make in the chapter.
00:14:08.900
Not that you're supposed to be like the most brutal crustacean on the block.
00:14:16.460
It was Kathy Newman, I think, that asked me in the UK.
00:14:20.500
Okay, so you're saying that human society should be organized along the lines of lobsters.
00:14:27.480
If you're going to insult someone, you might want to try accusing them of something,
00:14:35.160
of believing something, that someone somewhere believed at least once in the entire history of the human race.
00:14:47.160
You know, what I was trying to make the case was that we have this very old system in our nervous systems,
00:14:54.460
which is very old, which keeps track of where we are in hierarchies,
00:15:01.700
Because it's really important to you, and you, and you, and you,
00:15:10.360
and that you're admired and respected and valued by other people.
00:15:13.760
And it's so important that the neurochemical system that keeps track of that regulates your other emotions.
00:15:21.000
So that if you're low on the totem pole, because, well, for whatever the reason happens to be,
00:15:26.820
sometimes you deserve it, sometimes it's accidental, sometimes you've been hurt.
00:15:34.000
Your serotonin levels plummet, like a defeated lobster,
00:15:37.900
and then you feel way more negative emotion about everything,
00:15:41.160
and way less positive emotion about everything.
00:15:46.380
Like, it's, it's, that's clinical depression, and it's a terrible, terrible condition.
00:15:51.100
And so it's absolutely crucial that you maintain a tenable position in a hierarchy.
00:15:57.780
And not of one of power, but one of competence.
00:16:01.020
And at least even if you're not in a position that's tenable,
00:16:04.500
you're moving upward towards one that's tenable.
00:16:10.000
You know, because maybe you're young and useless,
00:16:20.080
I had some kid tell me the other day, it was really nice.
00:16:31.180
And so a lot of them knew us, which was quite interesting.
00:16:35.060
God, you know, I was in a rough shape two years ago.
00:16:39.340
And I was nihilistic as hell and depressed and bitter.
00:16:48.880
And he said, I didn't really like the bloody job.
00:16:51.900
And I was kind of dragging my ass to the work and not doing it well.
00:16:57.140
And it said, look, if you haven't got anything going for you, but you have a job, don't quit your job.
00:17:04.980
Whether you hate it or not, it's like, man, that's what you're hanging on to the edge of the world with your fingertips, you know?
00:17:18.100
And he said, another thing that I had mentioned was, why don't you just try to work as hard as you can at your damn job for like six weeks?
00:17:27.700
You know, if you work 10% longer hours, you make 40% more money.
00:17:36.300
Maybe you show up 15 minutes early and you leave 15 minutes late.
00:17:40.620
You know, and you actually work and your boss notices because he would probably notice.
00:17:44.440
And then maybe someone's going to get promoted and maybe it'll be you because something's going to tilt the scales.
00:17:52.160
And that little extra bit of work done without cynicism and resentment might be enough.
00:17:57.400
Well, he said he started at 21 bucks an hour and in six weeks he was making $37 an hour.
00:18:02.760
And it's not a king's ransom, man, but it's a hell of a lot more than zero and it's quite a lot more than 21.
00:18:09.260
He said his life had turned around substantially because he learned if he put some damn effort into it.
00:18:16.620
Like, I know that people hit runs of bad luck and that things can take you out of life, right?
00:18:22.920
Like, unfortunate illnesses and betrayal and, like, there's no shortage of randomness and horror that can wipe you out even if you're doing your best.
00:18:32.840
But you don't have a better bloody plan than to do your best and it tends to work a lot better than you think.
00:18:40.280
And what's so interesting about the hierarchies that people set up is that that's how they're set up.
00:18:49.020
They're set up on reciprocity and skill and trust.
00:18:51.960
Not always, you know, and if you're in a job where you work hard and you're a good guy and you're doing your best
00:18:57.960
and your boss is a bloody tyrant and you never get a break, it's like, okay, fine.
00:19:09.440
Get your resume set up, write your CV, fill in the educational gaps that you have,
00:19:15.800
send out your 25 resumes a day and prepare to make a lateral move because you're in a bad place.
00:19:21.960
But almost everywhere, and this has certainly been the case virtually everywhere I've worked,
00:19:28.840
If you go above and beyond the call of duty in an awake and intelligent way,
00:19:35.840
interpersonally, socially, with regards to the diligence of your work,
00:19:40.160
with regards to the truth of your attitude and your courage and all of that,
00:19:45.520
And, you know, if you try it for a year and it doesn't work,
00:19:52.260
You can't just walk out the door and instantly find another job.
00:19:58.400
You could even decide that you're going to make a move and double your salary.
00:20:01.520
You know, it's not a bad goal and it's certainly a possibility.
00:20:07.320
It's ethics that determines success in a functional society.
00:20:11.920
It's ethics that determines success, not power.
00:20:17.080
And that doesn't mean that all our systems are perfectly ethical.
00:20:22.320
If you're in a system, there's going to be some corruption in it.
00:20:25.000
Part of what you're supposed to do is keep your damn eyes open for the corruption
00:20:28.200
and your mouth speaking truth so when the corruption starts to take root,
00:20:32.100
you object to it so the whole damn system doesn't turn into a pathological power play.
00:20:37.080
And that's part of your ethical responsibility as a conscious being,
00:20:41.400
an ethical being, a religious being for that matter,
00:20:50.340
That's why you're the cornerstone of your state, man.
00:20:52.900
You're the, you're the, you're the, what would you call?
00:20:55.760
You're the, you're the wellspring of the ethical actions that replenish the dying world.
00:21:04.680
And if you, if you act, that's really, that's what you are.
00:21:09.180
And if you act that out properly, then things work.
00:21:13.100
And that's why that's always been described as ethical behavior.
00:21:18.140
You know, and being good isn't that easy anyways.
00:21:20.160
And it certainly doesn't mean being nice and harmless.
00:21:25.080
You have to be tough as a damn boat to be good.
00:21:27.680
Because you have to stand your ground when you need to stand your ground.
00:21:30.820
And you have to be able to say no when it's time to say no.
00:21:35.420
And so then you have to think and plan strategically so that when you're going to say no,
00:21:44.420
that takes a certain amount of integrated malevolence, I would say.
00:21:48.720
And once it's integrated, it's not malevolence.
00:21:58.340
And you cultivate that at least in part by telling the truth.
00:22:01.640
And so you take your place in the world as a decent person and as a decent citizen.
00:22:05.560
And then, and you play the hierarchical game properly.
00:22:08.500
And that is to stand up straight with your shoulders back.
00:22:13.380
You've got the tyranny of culture to deal with.
00:22:18.140
You've got your own damn malevolence and ignorance, right?
00:22:21.960
Plus the incredible, complicated, indeterminate potential of the future.
00:22:30.720
And you can cringe away from it and be afraid of it.
00:22:40.660
bring it on, because there's more to me than there is to the catastrophe.
00:22:45.860
And this is what I discovered from looking at what I looked at.
00:22:49.200
I looked at the darkest things I could look at, really, for 30 years.
00:22:52.900
I was really a lot of fun to be around, I can tell you.
00:22:56.000
I looked at the darkest things that I could think of, right?
00:22:58.860
Not only what happened in Auschwitz and what happened in the Gulag,
00:23:04.700
It's like I wasn't so much interested in the totalitarians as a group.
00:23:08.600
I was interested in the people who undertook the terrible acts that the totalitarians required.
00:23:14.160
You know, the people who, I was just rereading Ordinary Men.
00:23:17.420
And it was a story about a police battalion in Poland that trained ordinary policemen
00:23:22.020
to take naked, pregnant women out into the fields and shoot them in the back of the head.
00:23:27.960
It takes a lot of training, by the way, before you can bring yourself to do that.
00:23:32.040
And you aren't the same person by the end of it.
00:23:35.800
You know, and I was trying to figure out, what would it be like to be that person?
00:23:44.220
And then what would it be like to not be that person, right?
00:23:47.980
To refuse to do that, to not participate in that.
00:23:51.540
You know, and what I discovered by making that totalitarian proclivity personal
00:23:56.500
was that there's more to us than there is to the horror.
00:24:00.980
You know, bad as nature is, bent on our destruction, bad as culture is, tyrannical and bloody, back
00:24:07.980
as far as you can look, as malevolent as you are in the darkest part of your heart, and
00:24:15.660
The possibility that's within you that can well up the courage and the truth and the ability
00:24:21.460
and the skill and the willingness to set things right, if you are willing to set them right,
00:24:31.920
It was proof for me of an old saying I read from Carl Jung.
00:24:37.060
It's an alchemical motif in Sturquilinus Inventur,
00:24:40.660
which is what you most want to be found will be found where you least want to look, essentially.
00:24:46.300
And it's so interesting because it means that if you're willing to turn around and to stand
00:24:51.960
up, say, stand up straight and face the darkness like fully, what you discover at the darkest
00:25:03.840
And that's something that's so much worth discovering because there's going to be terrible darkness
00:25:13.700
And it could easily be that you're just not looking at it enough.
00:25:17.700
Because if you looked at it enough and you didn't shy away and you brought everything
00:25:22.520
you had to bear on it, you'd find that there was more to you than there was to the horror.
00:25:38.460
Because you're not bringing your A game to the table with all that cynicism and bitterness
00:25:43.740
and resentment and willful blindness and avoidance.
00:25:48.360
It's not good enough because there's too much of what's bad for 60% to be good enough.
00:25:58.500
When about 15, 20 years ago, my mother-in-law developed prefrontal temporal dementia,
00:26:12.140
You know, it's one of those degenerative neurological diseases like Alzheimer's.
00:26:15.760
And those bloody things are, like they're in the top echelon of awful.
00:26:21.480
You know, you watch a person deteriorate before your eyes.
00:26:30.220
And her husband, he lived in this little town that I grew up in, about 3,000 people.
00:26:46.320
And he played the fool a little bit, mostly for the amusement of people.
00:26:53.960
And the feeling was mutual, thank God, since I married his daughter.
00:26:58.280
And, you know, he drank a lot with his crazy friends up in northern Alberta.
00:27:03.200
And he wasn't at home a lot because he was working a lot.
00:27:06.060
And, you know, he was kind of a party animal about town.
00:27:15.800
And, you know, he took care of her for like 15 years.
00:27:23.020
As she deteriorated, you know, and she got more desperate to have him around.
00:27:30.560
Even as she lost herself almost completely, she would always light up when he came into the room, you know.
00:27:41.160
And he took care of her right till within weeks of her death.
00:27:44.180
He had to finally put her in an old folks home because he was no longer strong enough to lift her up from the chair.
00:27:49.540
And we interacted with him a lot, you know, because we were trying to help him figure out how to cope.
00:27:54.260
And we had signs put up in the house, electronic signs that would tell her when he was leaving so that she would know where he went.
00:28:02.600
And we had recordings in the bathroom so that she knew what to do when she went into the bathroom.
00:28:07.300
And we tried to do everything we could to not make this absolutely bloody atrocious experience complete hell.
00:28:14.140
And he participated the whole way, you know, and it was really something to see.
00:28:18.820
It was really, it left me with a tremendous sense of admiration for him.
00:28:23.460
But not just for him, but for people who can do that.
00:28:27.840
You know, and if there was a new decline, he took it on.
00:28:38.900
And then we were all gathered around the deathbed, her mother's, my wife's mother's deathbed.
00:28:47.900
Her sister's a palliative care nurse and the other one's a pharmacist.
00:28:51.860
And none of them are particularly afraid of illness and death, you know.
00:28:57.320
And so, you know, they made sure their mother's lips were wet while she was no longer eating or drinking.
00:29:17.480
Because the fact that the family had coped with it well and nobly and honorably, I would say, brought them together.
00:29:24.420
They were closer afterwards than they were before.
00:29:27.100
And they all had more respect for their father.
00:29:29.460
And then in the old folks' home, he met another woman who had a husband there who had Alzheimer's.
00:29:42.320
And then a few months later, they started going out.
00:29:53.140
Because he still has pictures of his wife up in his house.
00:30:09.860
And that was a good example of how you can extract at least a certain amount of light out of what's dark, even at a personal level.
00:30:18.940
And it's worth asking yourself, it's like, drop what you're doing that's foolish, that you know is foolish.
00:30:27.180
And pick a name that's worthwhile, you know, to make things better for yourself, like you're worth taking care of, like you're worth something, you know.
00:30:34.580
And to surround yourself with people who believe the same.
00:30:38.380
And who are, what, rejoicing in your accomplishments and unhappy when you fail, right.
00:30:43.940
And you're comparing yourself to your accomplishments of yesterday and not to someone else's today so that you're not jealous and bitter.
00:30:51.720
And you put your own house in order so that you're not cursing the world when some of its disarray might be your fault.
00:30:58.320
And you're trying to pursue something meaningful.
00:31:08.740
You know, you think you're a miracle of some bloody bizarre sort.
00:31:12.100
We've been around for three and a half billion years.
00:31:15.560
You know, every single one of your relatives propagated successfully.
00:31:20.320
And here you are, against all possible odds, in this world of hell in some sense, and bitterness and tyranny and malevolence.
00:31:46.220
That's the individual as the cornerstone of the state.
00:31:59.000
And then maybe we can see what we can do about it, you know.
00:32:04.080
And maybe that would be the purpose of your damn life, right?
00:32:15.000
So I learned, because I looked at dark things, that I learned that the light was more powerful
00:32:28.960
And that people were capable, each of us, of remarkable things.
00:32:33.080
And that we need to know that that's what we are.
00:32:35.780
We're this consciousness that confronts potential with all its catastrophe.
00:32:46.340
And that idea that we have intrinsic value, that's the bedrock presupposition of our state.
00:32:51.740
We're going to question that, or we're going to live it out.
00:33:44.820
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That's a long way to come and join you on this stage.
00:36:47.580
All right, so now we're going to try to plow through as many questions as we can, all right?
00:36:52.740
I thought this was the most important one that I saw.
00:36:56.780
Do you think Joe Rogan is as deep and sophisticated as he seems, or is he just a stoner?
00:37:08.280
I've been in a room with lots of smart people where Joe was in the same room,
00:37:14.560
and it wasn't obvious that he wasn't the smartest person in the room.
00:37:18.640
So, you know, he's one of those characters who's not, he's not a formal intellectual,
00:37:25.980
but often really smart people who have taught themselves, you know,
00:37:31.140
and sort of come up in the world through their own devices,
00:37:35.300
have an original intelligence that's not so obvious among, say,
00:37:42.560
the more classically university educated, the more cookie cutter.
00:38:04.000
The thing he did on the Kardashians, that was just, man,
00:38:07.480
I just couldn't believe that he would go that far.
00:38:09.300
It was just, it was just, my jaw just kept opening more and more as he became more and more of,
00:38:14.520
like, he was just like, what, what, gargoyle on a bedpost, right?
00:38:26.360
And he, he knows that there's a lot of things he doesn't know.
00:38:34.240
And, you know, so he's been successful at, like, five things.
00:38:38.660
So, um, he's no, he's certainly not just a stoner.
00:38:50.200
The quick follow-up on that, obviously, is will the two of us smoke a blunt on stage?
00:39:25.140
especially in the winter, when you should be stoned.
00:39:28.020
Do your best Aussie accent, saying, good day, mate.
00:39:45.520
And I have this rule that I don't say things that make me turn red and sweat.
00:39:55.040
Who would win in a cage fight between a serotonin-filled lobster and a petted house cat?
00:40:03.860
A petted, you know, because you're petting cats all the time.
00:40:07.880
Well, it would depend on the size of the lobster.
00:40:19.340
If it was a 60-pound lobster, there'd be no competition.
00:40:27.320
I like how he can give a scientific answer to even that.
00:40:36.940
What does the B in Jordan B. Peterson stand for?
00:40:56.880
And he built a boat and sailed it from Norway to New York with like 14 other people.
00:41:06.620
He was a blacksmith and a bit of a mechanical engineer.
00:41:10.880
He built farm equipment for his farm in Saskatchewan.
00:41:23.820
He died when I was fairly young, but I remember him.
00:41:28.360
You're stuck on an island, and you can only bring three things.
00:42:15.400
I might be wrong about this, but there's this YouTube show I watch about this guy who goes
00:42:19.940
out in the, I think in Outback, like with nothing.
00:42:24.340
And he goes out there and like builds little cities.
00:42:32.740
I mean, I think that guy's absolutely unbelievable.
00:42:39.100
Then he goes out and he gets a stick and a rock and he makes an axe.
00:42:47.240
And then he builds like a heated floor, which is really quite cool.
00:43:01.120
And I think I could maybe not die instantly if I had those three things.
00:43:06.700
Well, I'm going to read this one just because it's like, man, they've got like, you know,
00:43:10.440
the most influential public intellectual we've got.
00:43:17.520
I guess I bring my wife too, but I don't think that would make her very happy.
00:43:31.660
It's like, what the hell did you bring me to this island for?
00:43:40.160
Who is your pick to win the WWE Universal Championship at WrestleMania this year, Seth Rollins, or will Brock Lesnar retain?
00:44:17.180
You don't want to know how many you're asking what kind of underwear you wear.
00:44:19.580
I'll tell you what kind of underwear I'm wearing.
00:44:29.580
My wife bought me underwear with mousse on them.
00:44:34.320
And so, I have to tell you that, because that's a Canadian thing.
00:44:43.500
And so, I just couldn't believe she bought me these.
00:44:45.540
And they're actually quite nice, which I also can't believe, because I don't understand
00:44:49.420
how red underwear covered with mousse can also be nice.
00:44:54.100
But as far as underwear go, they beat the hell out of tighty-whities.
00:45:00.060
Says the guy wearing a blue tie with lobsters on it.
00:45:05.740
You can't believe how much lobster-themed clothing there is.
00:45:18.960
Has the sudden rise to fame overinflated your ego?
00:45:36.900
Well, and, you know, more importantly, I'm married to someone who's very sensible.
00:45:40.280
You know, and she doesn't let things go to her head, really.
00:45:45.280
She doesn't get overly upset and desperate when things are overly upsetting and desperate.
00:45:54.020
And she doesn't get overly enthusiastic and narcissistic when things are going well.
00:46:15.860
and we've traveled all over the world and met all sorts of people and done all sorts of things.
00:46:24.280
And to the degree that we're not, we sort of butt up against each other
00:46:28.460
and try to make ourselves slightly more sensible than we are.
00:46:34.940
And also, over the last couple of years, you know, I've had people,
00:46:40.120
I've been watching very carefully because, well, especially for the first year and a half,
00:46:45.440
because I was always one utterance away from complete bloody disaster.
00:46:50.280
And so, I was watching what I was saying and doing very carefully.
00:46:54.120
But I had people around me who were doing the same.
00:46:56.700
You know, my wife being foremost, my two kids who are both awake, you know, and careful.
00:47:04.920
And my parents are still alive, and they were watching as well.
00:47:09.140
And I have a group of friends, some of whom, I lost some friends, but I kept a number of them.
00:47:14.700
And they were watching very carefully and letting me know when I was not, you know, a little too angry maybe,
00:47:22.060
or a little too acerbic or arrogant, all those things.
00:47:32.740
And so, and I've been a psychologist for a long time.
00:47:37.660
And I know, especially from reading Carl Jung about the danger of ego inflation.
00:47:46.600
And, you know, I tell these archetypal stories a lot.
00:47:50.120
And I learned from Jung 30 years ago that knowing the stories doesn't make you the archetype.
00:47:59.040
And that's very, very, very important to understand, you know.
00:48:02.460
And so I try to be cognizant of my shortcomings, which are manifold, and to be grateful.
00:48:11.640
You know, like tonight, here you all are, and I'm really happy about that, pleased about that.
00:48:17.600
And I would say, grateful is a rough word to use, because it's kind of, it's been overused, you know.
00:48:23.360
It's been used by people who, it's been used to signal a virtue that is non-existent often.
00:48:31.060
But I am grateful for this, because it's so unlikely, you know, that there's 5,500 of us here sitting together
00:48:39.140
in peace and tranquility and harmony, trying to think hard about what we should be doing in our lives
00:48:46.840
and how we can make ourselves better in a non-naive and non, what would you call it?
00:48:54.560
It's that, there's a kind of striving for goodness that isn't virtuous.
00:49:10.640
I'm hoping what this is, is that it's the old original sin kind.
00:49:15.780
You know, it's like, yeah, Christ, there's plenty wrong with me.
00:49:18.940
And I include myself in this all the time, you know.
00:49:23.020
It's like, it'd be good if something could be done about it, even a little bit.
00:49:26.480
And maybe that would make things a bit better for everybody.
00:49:30.900
And maybe we can come and have a serious conversation about that for two hours and think hard about it.
00:49:36.820
And maybe we can turn around our lives a little bit.
00:49:42.400
And, and that it's possible for each person to make things around them way better than they are.
00:49:48.940
You know, not always, because sometimes you're in such a dire goddamn situation that, that basically all you've got is a hope for slightly less hell.
00:49:59.280
You know, but man, you can make a huge difference in your life to take care of yourself properly.
00:50:08.040
And a huge difference in your community's life.
00:50:10.280
And, and it would be so good if we could, people wonder, well, what's the meaning of life?
00:50:16.160
What's, what justifies the suffering and the misery and all of that?
00:50:24.200
You think, okay, all, with all of this pushing against me, how much can I push back?
00:50:30.360
Could I move the horror an inch back with, with all the strength that I have at my disposal?
00:50:40.280
It, it, it makes you better with regards to yourself, but it also makes the world a better place.
00:50:50.360
And, and you don't want to be, you don't want to be, you don't want to be,
00:50:54.200
narcissistic or, or egotistic about that, because it just gets in the way, you know.
00:51:00.100
And one of the things I learned from, from Solzhenitsyn, this was an unbelievably useful, man.
00:51:11.060
About 30 years ago, I came across this website that was, that had been produced by this guy
00:51:27.340
He had developed this delusion that he was the center of the world.
00:51:31.180
And he had this really complicated explanation, because he lived in the geographic center of
00:51:36.680
And he thought of England as the center of the word that had spread around the world.
00:51:41.580
And he lived right in the middle of the town that was in the geographic center.
00:51:44.820
And so, his schizophrenic fantasy had put him at the center of the world.
00:51:52.140
And he'd made a very elaborate webpage about all of this.
00:51:56.320
And then, and so I was thinking about that, this, the center of the world.
00:52:03.960
I was also reading Solzhenitsyn at the same time.
00:52:06.140
And Solzhenitsyn said, you know, that the world is constituted.
00:52:09.840
And this is the, this is one of the fundamental axioms of Western civilization, is the world
00:52:14.900
is constituted so that each person is a center of the world.
00:52:22.420
That, we can't understand this, because we can't understand how something could be constructed
00:52:28.660
Because we're used to things having one center.
00:52:37.240
And, and a center of, of, of infinite scope in some sense.
00:52:46.600
And, and, there's a big difference between being the center of the world, and a center of
00:52:55.620
So, if you remember that you're a center of the world, then you stay sane.
00:53:01.540
But as soon as you start thinking that you're the center of the world, well then, you know,
00:53:09.340
And like, even if you are doing the best you can, you know, you invite everyone else along.
00:53:15.840
It's like, I'm doing the best I can, but there's way more work to do, man.
00:53:23.660
That's the other thing that's so weird about it.
00:53:29.040
There isn't anybody that, it isn't okay for anyone not to be in the game.
00:53:35.860
You know, and, and I don't understand that exactly as well.
00:53:39.000
But that also has something to do with our, like our being made in the image of God.
00:53:43.420
And, and the central value and divinity of our consciousness.
00:53:48.240
The consciousness that gives rise to being itself.
00:53:55.440
It's consciousness that gives rise to being from, from, from possibility.
00:54:03.320
And we decide, is it going to be better or is it going to be worse?
00:54:13.920
And that's what gives you your intrinsic value.
00:54:16.160
And the, and the, and the meaning of your life.
00:54:20.480
And the effect of you on the structure of reality itself.
00:54:32.000
That's why it says in the, in Genesis that human beings are made in the image of God.
00:54:36.180
God is what extracts order from chaos, from potential.
00:54:39.980
It's like, I don't, I think that that's, I don't think that can be said in any way that's more true than that.
00:54:50.480
And it's, it's a hell of a thing to contemplate.
00:54:53.020
And especially when you think that you actually believe it.
00:54:55.960
You know, because you do believe that you have intrinsic value.
00:54:58.560
Our whole legal system is predicated on the idea that you have intrinsic value.
00:55:03.920
Even if you're accused of something absolutely highness.
00:55:06.680
There's still something about you that has value outside of the dictates of the state.
00:55:13.700
You know, if you're going to have a friendship with someone.
00:55:19.580
You treat them as if they have intrinsic and transcendent value.
00:55:27.300
And if it's true, well, maybe it's an, it's an, maybe it's an inexhaustible source from which you can draw.
00:55:40.120
Because like, what the hell else do you have to do that's better than to try that?
00:56:13.520
And I'm interested in, I'm not interested in politics so much.
00:56:18.220
I don't think I have the temperament for it, to tell you the truth.
00:56:20.940
Because I don't think I could take the, I don't really think I could take the, what is it?
00:56:31.020
You know, like, I have a reputation, I guess, of enjoying conflict.
00:56:47.780
And that's because I know that sometimes, and this is what I've learned from being a clinical psychologist in part.
00:56:53.580
A serious clinical psychologist is like, if I walk into a room and there's trouble,
00:56:59.400
I'm not going to pretend that the trouble isn't there.
00:57:10.460
If I can see it and everyone's pretending, you know, there's an elephant under the carpet.
00:57:14.220
And everyone is shifting in their chairs as the elephant moves.
00:57:17.280
And they're all smiling away, stupidly, as if everything's okay.
00:57:23.580
And I don't like that, because it's usually not an elephant either.
00:57:38.240
But I know perfectly well that things that you hide grow.
00:57:43.820
And so, anyways, I'm not interested in politics, I don't believe.
00:57:49.680
Because I don't think I have the temperament for it.
00:57:54.120
And I am interested in trying to figure out what we should be aiming at.
00:57:59.500
Like, we're all bloody petrified in one way or another.
00:58:03.760
And cynical about the possibility of multiple apocalypses.
00:58:13.520
Well, here's a bunch of ways that things could go to hell in a hand basket.
00:58:28.460
But we could irrigate the damn deserts if we could get our...
00:58:32.260
If we could become sophisticated enough with regards to our technological use of energy.
00:58:39.000
It's not like we're going to run out of energy.
00:58:46.880
I mean, and we could make sure everybody had a high quality education.
00:58:51.080
And that child mortality was cut to almost nothing.
00:58:53.460
And that we were taking full advantage of everyone's talents to the best of our ability.
00:58:58.340
And, like, I'm interested in establishing these aims.
00:59:02.920
And so, and I am working on that with all sorts of people.
00:59:05.800
In Canada and the United States and to some degree in Australia and in other countries.
00:59:09.760
Trying to understand, well, we need a noble aim for Christ's sake.
00:59:34.260
It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's better than, it's a better role for me.
00:59:47.260
What is a great day for Jordan Peterson look like?
00:59:50.560
Well, there's a couple of kinds of great days, I would say.
00:59:55.820
It's a great day if I have a chance to spend it with my, with my wife and my kids.
01:00:08.480
And I get along as well as anybody would want to with my wife.
01:00:12.700
And so, well, and I say that specifically because, you know, if you, if you're fortunate
01:00:20.060
in your partner, you have someone to contend with.
01:00:23.420
Not, not someone that you just always get along with.
01:00:27.000
You have someone that you're, you know, you're, you're, you're contending with.
01:00:31.960
There's a story in, in the Abrahamic stories where it's, it's, it's, it's Joseph, Joseph?
01:00:41.940
And he's kind of a trickster and, and, and, and he causes all sorts of trouble.
01:00:46.280
And at one point, um, when he's going back to reconcile himself with his estranged brother,
01:00:52.740
he sends his family across the river and is laying on the banks alone.
01:01:05.020
And God dislocates his hip because he's God, you know, he's, he's not going to let you just
01:01:18.980
And, and that's something really worth knowing, man.
01:01:21.580
You know, because what that means is that at the basis of our most profound stories is the
01:01:27.120
notion that the founder of the holy state is the person who wrestles with God.
01:01:33.340
And that doesn't mean believe in God, you know, it, that, it, that isn't what it means.
01:01:39.740
It's like, this is, this is, this, this, this, this reality that confronts us is a rough and
01:01:46.580
It's, it's, it's not for, it's not for the weak of heart.
01:01:51.380
It's for, it's for the person who wants to step forward and contend.
01:01:55.480
And it turns out that if you're that person, you wrestle with God, which means that you
01:02:01.640
Defeat, there's a, there's a victim, an attempt to be, to attain victory, even over God of all
01:02:09.700
And that's what makes you part of the holy state.
01:02:16.280
And I, I think it's so realistic that you want something to contend with, you know?
01:02:21.860
And if you have a good marriage, and maybe if you have good friendships for that matter,
01:02:28.520
And in my wife, I have someone to contend with.
01:02:33.060
Not to the same degree, because they're my children.
01:02:35.740
But it's a good day when I have a chance to spend it with them.
01:02:44.880
You know, like, I think all the days we've done this have been good.
01:02:51.620
I mean, and, and, it's, and I do mean literally unbelievable.
01:02:55.880
Every night you think, wow, wow, really, this is going to happen again?
01:02:59.560
We're going to, we're going to, like, bring 3,000 people together, and this is what we're
01:03:08.560
And we're going to, like, aim high, and, and, and think critically, and have a genuine
01:03:15.180
And, and everyone's going to be, like, locked onto that?
01:03:20.260
And so, yeah, these are good days, which is why we keep doing them.
01:03:26.460
And, and, and, and I'm fortunate to have them with a fair degree of regularity.
01:03:41.520
Well, that right there is how you circle up a show.
01:03:44.640
So, I'm going to get out of the way and make some noise for Dr. Jordan Peterson, everybody.
01:04:22.860
It's very good of you to take the time to come out tonight.
01:04:25.780
And it was a great pleasure to be here in Melbourne.
01:04:35.700
If you found this conversation meaningful, you might think about picking up Dad's books,
01:04:40.880
Maps of Meaning, The Architecture of Belief, or his newer bestseller, 12 Rules for Life,
01:04:46.360
Both of these works delve much deeper into the topics covered in the Jordan B. Peterson podcast.
01:04:50.560
See JordanBPeterson.com for audio, e-book, and text links, or pick up the books at your favorite bookseller.
01:04:56.380
Remember to check out JordanBPeterson.com slash personality for information on his new course.
01:05:00.880
Follow me on my YouTube channel, JordanBPeterson, on Twitter, at JordanBPeterson, on Facebook, at DrJordanBPeterson, and at Instagram, at Jordan.B.Peterson.
01:05:13.380
Details on this show, access to my blog, information about my tour dates and other events, and my list of recommended books can be found on my website, JordanBPeterson.com.
01:05:26.080
My online writing programs, designed to help people straighten out their pasts, understand themselves in the present, and develop a sophisticated vision and strategy for the future, can be found at SelfAuthoring.com.
01:05:51.760
In today's chaotic world, many of us are searching for a way to aim higher and find spiritual peace.
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