Structuring Your Perceptions (part two)
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 3 minutes
Words per Minute
165.91866
Summary
Dr. Jordan B. Peterson has created a new series that could be a lifeline for those battling depression and anxiety. With decades of experience helping patients, Dr. Peterson offers a unique understanding of why you might be feeling this way. In his new series, he provides a roadmap towards healing, showing that while the journey isn t easy, it s absolutely possible to find your way forward. If you're suffering, please know you are not alone. There's hope, and there's a path to feeling better. Go to Dailywire Plus now and start watching Dr. Jordan Peterson's new series on Depression and Anxiety. Let this be the first step towards the brighter future you deserve. Episode 47: [Part 2] " Structuring Your Perceptions: Part 2" is a continuation of Episode 47 and was recorded in Canberra, Australia on February 15th, 2019. I m Mikayla Peterson, and as you know, we ve been in Russia for the last month and a half for emergency treatment for my dad. I m so happy to see the sun, but it s pretty unpleasant. I hope you enjoy this episode, and I'll keep you posted on any new developments. Sincerely. - M. Peterson - . . . . , Dr. , & Dr. J. Peterson - J.B. Peterson, , and J. B. . , , J. P. & J. R. Peterson. J. M. . . J. ( ) (J. ( ) . ( ). (February 15, 2019) (January 7, 2020) Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the podcast, and for sharing it with the world, J.P. (February 16, 2020). JORDAN B. PETERSON (Jan 17, 2019). (March 6, 2020, 2019, ) (May 1, 2020 ) JORDER, 2019 (June 4, 2020), J. (2019, 2018, July 6, 2019), July 4, 2019 (July 4, 2018 ) (August 6, 2018) (September 2018, July 5, 2019 , August 5, 2017, , August 6, 2014, August 4, 2015, September 5, 2018), July 5th, 2018 (September 2019, 2018).
Transcript
00:00:00.960
Hey everyone, real quick before you skip, I want to talk to you about something serious and important.
00:00:06.480
Dr. Jordan Peterson has created a new series that could be a lifeline for those battling depression and anxiety.
00:00:12.740
We know how isolating and overwhelming these conditions can be, and we wanted to take a moment to reach out to those listening who may be struggling.
00:00:20.100
With decades of experience helping patients, Dr. Peterson offers a unique understanding of why you might be feeling this way in his new series.
00:00:27.420
He provides a roadmap towards healing, showing that while the journey isn't easy, it's absolutely possible to find your way forward.
00:00:35.360
If you're suffering, please know you are not alone. There's hope, and there's a path to feeling better.
00:00:41.780
Go to Daily Wire Plus now and start watching Dr. Jordan B. Peterson on depression and anxiety.
00:00:47.460
Let this be the first step towards the brighter future you deserve.
00:00:50.980
Welcome to episode 47 of the Jordan B. Peterson podcast.
00:01:03.580
As you know, we've been in Russia for the last month and a half for emergency treatment for my dad, but guess what?
00:01:15.600
Dad's continuing to recover, but it's pretty unpleasant.
00:01:25.080
It's called Structuring Your Perceptions Part 2 and was recorded in Canberra, Australia on February 15th, 2019.
00:01:38.480
A Jordan B. Peterson 12 Rules for Life Lecture.
00:01:41.580
If you isolate animals and you set them up so that they can voluntarily give themselves electric shocks,
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if you isolate them, they will do that just for entertainment.
00:02:11.700
And I'm flooded with positive emotion knowing that my pathway towards that valued end is clear.
00:02:45.320
And not, you know, completely god-awfully filthy.
00:02:52.840
Because, hypothetically, you have some things to do.
00:02:57.080
Because you've got to put on your clothes, and your clothes signify who you are to yourself and other people.
00:03:02.800
And so, they're part of the toolkit that you use to interact with the world.
00:03:06.860
And maybe there's other things that you're going to do in your room.
00:03:10.400
So your office needs to be set up in some intelligent way.
00:03:13.640
So that every time you have to do something difficult, you don't have to do 20 other stupid difficult things.
00:03:20.500
Like dig through 30 pens that don't work to find one that works.
00:03:24.600
Because that might be enough just to stop you in your tracks, right?
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You want to set the place up so that the goals are there and the pathways are clear.
00:03:33.960
And then when you go in that room, it makes you full of positive emotion.
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It's a place that's set up where someone sensible has planned to do valuable things.
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And, by the way, that also makes you less anxious, which is a nice plus.
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Because anxiety comes about when there's too many pointless choices in front of you.
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And so you want to set yourself up so that you have a certain elegance in the manner in which you've constructed your surrounding.
00:04:06.280
Well, then you have to figure out, well, what should it be devoted towards?
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Because if you just sit there and do nothing, try this for six months.
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And I've talked to people like that, the chronically depressed people, you know, who really haven't got up for months.
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Like, your default mental state for not actively engaged in important things is nihilistic, pain-ridden, frustrated, disappointed, ashamed, guilt-ridden, and miserable.
00:05:02.380
And so it's not only that you need a valued place to go and a pathway there so that you're not anxious.
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It's that if you don't have that, then in comes the suffering.
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And I'm not saying that everyone's depressed for the reason I just laid out.
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I'm just telling you one way that you could be depressed if you want to be.
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But then if I go here, see, that's a lot more annoying.
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And the reason for that is because I know that if I do this, I can...
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And so the reason it didn't bother me very much was because
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I've already set out a frame of reference that's, what would you call,
00:06:21.520
And the frame of reference was, well, I was over there, and it wasn't so good,
00:06:25.440
and I was going to go over here, and it was better.
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And there was an obstacle in the way because at that moment,
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those things there, that wasn't a table with two bottles on it.
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This is how you respond in your day-to-day life, man.
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Oh, that someone, man, if I met them in a bar, we'd have a beer.
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It's like, that son of a bitch just cut me off.
00:06:58.840
Right, so you take that whole person, and you turn them into an icon.
00:07:07.780
Like, maybe you're just off to the corner store to buy some beer.
00:07:12.140
But that doesn't stop you from reducing the person to an annoying obstacle.
00:07:18.360
And so, well, that's part of the way that you perceive.
00:07:24.920
But it's not very annoying, because I can walk around it.
00:07:27.480
Now, if I, if there was somebody, like a basketball player, pro basketball player, standing here, and every time I tried to get around him, he blocked me, well, that would be a lot more annoying.
00:07:40.700
Because I wouldn't be able to calculate a pathway to my goal.
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And so, then I would have to either learn to play basketball a lot better than I can, which would take a long time and be rather pointless.
00:07:55.120
Or I would have to reconceptualize my goal-directed perceptual structure.
00:08:01.600
And that would mean I'd have to flip my world upside down.
00:08:05.480
Okay, so, now, now we're going to talk about that.
00:08:10.300
So, a simple story is, I'm at point A, and I'm going to point B.
00:08:17.360
And a little more complicated story, more interesting story is, I was at point A.
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And as I went there, something I didn't really expect happened.
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And I got either back on track or ended up in a better place.
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That's a fundamental mythology of the human race.
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It's something like the fall from paradise and the recovery of paradise.
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This fall into a catastrophic situation and then recovery.
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It's the same thing that happens when Moses leads his people from the tyranny of Egypt
00:09:00.920
into the desert and then, hypothetically, into the promised land.
00:09:28.640
And so it's good to know that, too, because it's good to know that when you're going somewhere
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And that's a domain of disinhibited emotions and possibilities, disinhibited perceptions,
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and a disinhibition of the structure of the world.
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It can be really overwhelming and extraordinarily stressful.
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But it's also a place of great possibility because new things can emerge from it.
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And your job is to confront that, if you can, to know where you are.
00:10:08.080
And you need to know that you're the sort of person that could actually prevail in a place like that
00:10:12.520
if you keep your damn eyes open and if you're paying attention.
00:10:17.000
Well, it also helps if you articulate yourself very carefully and tell the truth in a situation like that.
00:10:22.860
Because if you've fallen off the map, let's say, what you want to do is put together a new map
00:10:28.640
and you want to bloody well make sure that you got it right.
00:10:31.460
So attention and truth will get you out of chaos.
00:10:34.640
And that's useful to know because you will definitely fall into chaos.
00:10:38.720
Okay, so let's say, well, forget about me wanting to go over there.
00:10:42.720
Let's talk about something that I want in a more profound way.
00:10:48.900
So you know how if you're shooting an arrow and you shoot at a bullseye,
00:10:56.640
There's the center bullseye, which is quite small,
00:10:58.960
and then there's a slightly bigger circle around it that's a different color,
00:11:02.240
and a bigger circle around it, and a bigger circle around it,
00:11:06.520
And then there's an implication there that there's sort of a hierarchy of goals.
00:11:13.960
But better hit the edge than to miss the target altogether,
00:11:16.840
and maybe better to draw back your bow and aim than not to play at all.
00:11:24.320
That you can derive from archery, and it's interesting.
00:11:26.860
The word sin, by the way, is an archery term from the Greek, hamartia.
00:11:36.200
And it's really good to think about the target,
00:11:40.780
Visually, in particular, your eyes are pointed at whatever it is that you're after.
00:11:46.020
We're always looking at other people's eyes to find out what their eyes are pointing at,
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That's how we align ourselves emotionally with them.
00:11:59.080
And so its aim is really, aim is of fundamental importance.
00:12:05.660
Okay, and that's when you get into a discussion of something approximating a value hierarchy.
00:12:24.840
At the highest level of resolution, I am moving my fingers.
00:12:28.600
And I don't even really know how I'm doing that.
00:12:32.320
You know, I don't know which muscles are moving.
00:12:36.560
And so my abstract representation bottoms out at the level of motor movement.
00:12:44.040
That's sort of like where the mind hits the body.
00:12:48.360
And what I'm doing when I'm moving my fingers is producing words.
00:12:54.240
Let's say I'm trying to produce the right words.
00:13:12.620
Okay, so that's a, you see, that's a bullseye, right?
00:13:22.820
And then the next thing around that is the phrase.
00:13:37.340
And you think, well, that's kind of an interesting way of putting it.
00:13:45.180
And the answer is, because it should point you somewhere.
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And you think about all the things we do that point us places.
00:13:57.480
Well, because we see people pointing and aiming, cooperating and competing together in a civilized
00:14:06.480
And we're so thrilled about the fact that people are pointing and aiming at things that we'll
00:14:17.800
And we're so thrilled that they hit it that we all stand up and clap.
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It's like, it's time for, like, a dozen beer at the pub and, you know, and a riot in the
00:14:33.120
Well, the issue is, it's actually rather important.
00:14:36.400
It's so important to point and aim at things that it constitutes the basis of most of our
00:14:46.420
So, okay, so what do you, so, letter, word, phrase, sentence, paragraph, chapter, book.
00:14:56.520
Well, I wrote 12 Rules of Life because, well, partly out of curiosity, I wanted to see what
00:15:03.360
But partly because I'm a clinical psychologist and a professor.
00:15:06.960
And I thought, well, I could use my academic knowledge and I could provide practical information
00:15:14.360
to people and I could distribute to a lot of people and then their lives would be maybe
00:15:25.840
So that was the frame within which the book fit.
00:15:31.680
And so that would be also, there's a superordinate frame outside that.
00:15:35.280
Well, it was part of my duty as a scientist, say, and a practitioner.
00:15:47.880
Well, you take care of yourself, you take care of your family, take care of your community.
00:15:55.020
So to be a good citizen, that's a higher order goal.
00:16:04.020
Like it's a small part of it, but it's not nothing.
00:16:10.860
That's the reality, that tiny point where your mind meets the world through your body.
00:16:20.760
And then you think, well, what might be on top of that?
00:16:26.560
What are the characteristics of being a good citizen?
00:16:31.920
You think about the good people that you see on movies, heroes that you see on movies.
00:16:35.580
Okay, well, what's the characteristic of someone who's heroic?
00:16:45.080
You know, they try to make themselves a little less ignorant, because we're all a little more
00:16:48.780
ignorant than we could be, so it might be nice to rectify that.
00:16:52.120
And then we try to get our own malevolence under control.
00:16:56.220
They say it's harder to rule yourself than a city.
00:17:02.400
You know, you're not trying as hard as you could.
00:17:08.780
And you do things that are cruel, unnecessary, deceitful, arrogant, and deceptive.
00:17:18.340
It's like, a little less of that would be good.
00:17:38.100
It's not like your family is characterized by entirely angelic dispositions.
00:17:43.440
No doubt there's all sorts of trouble that, in principle, you could be at least not making
00:17:49.660
And you might think, well, that would be worth devoting some time to.
00:17:56.480
And then maybe I could also face the tyrannical and malevolent element of my culture a little
00:18:04.040
You know, and that might be, well, by standing up for yourself a bit more at work, by having
00:18:08.640
a strategy at work for the development of your career, or for the development of the
00:18:13.000
company itself, or a vision for the enterprise itself.
00:18:19.260
But part of your job, and make no mistake about this, this is part of your job.
00:18:26.420
You know, our culture is predicated on the idea that we're all sovereign individuals.
00:18:32.580
That sovereignty itself, which is authority, political authority, but authority in general
00:18:41.160
Not the king, not the emperor, not the aristocracy, none of that.
00:18:48.300
Each of us has that divine value that makes us the cornerstone of the state.
00:18:57.420
And whether or not the state moves towards something approximating habitable or degenerates
00:19:05.280
into something approximating hell is dependent on you.
00:19:13.260
Each of us is the center of the world, and we're all charged with that responsibility.
00:19:17.960
So that's the next part of the bullseye, let's say.
00:19:26.620
You're trying to put it in order wherever you can, within the confines of your ability,
00:19:31.500
without thinking about that as trivial, because it's not.
00:19:34.040
You think, well, there's some natural problems that might need to be solved.
00:19:40.840
You know, there's lots of problems with the world, environmental problems for that matter.
00:19:47.040
You know, nature, for all its beauty, has got its hands around our neck and is squeezing constantly.
00:19:52.680
There might be things that you could do to, well, improve your own life, your own health,
00:19:56.820
the health of your family, but also to push back against the detrimental forces of nature itself,
00:20:03.180
so that there's a bit more positive breathing space for you and the people around you.
00:20:12.000
It beats the hell out of the alternative, as far as I can tell, and then it imbues those
00:20:21.480
It's like, no, words, paragraphs, words, sentences, paragraphs, chapters, books, right?
00:20:29.100
To restructure the tyranny of things, to straighten myself out and maybe to help other people with
00:20:42.940
And you want things to be imbued with meaning, right?
00:20:55.260
You need something to make the fact that this is your life worthwhile.
00:20:59.440
And maybe you need, and it's death we're talking about and the suffering that goes along with
00:21:03.580
You might need something pretty damn potent as a antidote to that to stop you from despair
00:21:09.700
and all the terrible things that go along with it.
00:21:12.100
And so you're called upon to do things that are beyond you in order to have, to be engaged
00:21:19.320
And then you make the world a better place, too.
00:21:21.740
And so then we come to the very outside of that.
00:21:26.200
This is as far as it goes, or at least as far as I can tell.
00:21:29.580
So you confront yourself, and you confront nature, and you confront culture.
00:21:34.840
But fundamentally, you confront the unknown itself.
00:21:45.340
You know, like people, scientists will tell you, well, we're deterministic creatures.
00:21:49.720
You know, we follow the Newtonian laws of physics.
00:21:54.980
And it's like, that does not look like how your brain is set up.
00:21:58.860
So things that you've practiced intensely, you're pretty deterministic.
00:22:03.540
Like when you're driving, you're not thinking, or walking, you're not thinking consciously
00:22:09.140
You might be thinking about where you're going, that's fine.
00:22:11.820
But you're not thinking about the micro-movements and all that.
00:22:17.380
But when you wake up in the morning, man, and your consciousness reappears on the scene,
00:22:22.560
you know, like the sun rising in the morning, which is a very common metaphor for the reemergence
00:22:27.140
of consciousness, what you see in front of you is the day.
00:22:35.460
Like some branching off into what's clearly positive, and some branching off into what's
00:22:42.580
You think, yeah, you know, there's some things I should get to today.
00:22:46.760
Because if I don't, tomorrow's going to be worse.
00:22:51.880
You put the blankets back underneath your head.
00:22:53.880
Or maybe that's the time for the first joint of the morning.
00:22:56.540
Because you don't want to give that any consideration.
00:22:59.060
But you know, it's like, there's some things I need to get at.
00:23:04.980
And so there's some real existential terror in that.
00:23:07.840
And then there's the positive part too, which is, hey, look, there's field of opportunity
00:23:12.840
And you know, if I was careful and awake and articulate, and I had my vision intact, and
00:23:18.320
I got up and put myself to it, then who knows what I could transform the potential that's in
00:23:29.140
Well, I think it's a choice between good and evil.
00:23:33.000
That would be in terms of your own personal morality.
00:23:35.800
It's not good to shirk your responsibility, and to let things deteriorate, and to avoid
00:23:47.880
And it's the story of heaven and hell to some degree too.
00:23:50.640
Because you could be working at making things slightly more heavenly than they are, and at
00:23:59.280
And that would seem to be something that might grip and motivate you and make it worthwhile
00:24:05.820
And so, and so, and that's what your consciousness does.
00:24:10.240
Literally, this is how I think it works, is that what you see in front of you, you're not
00:24:15.120
determined by the past, and you're not a clockwork machine, and the world isn't made out of
00:24:22.260
The world that you confront is made out of potential.
00:24:38.480
It's some reality that isn't here that could be that's so important that that's what I'm
00:24:51.320
Because they don't doubt that that's a reality.
00:24:55.700
You know, when you wake up at three in the morning, I'm not living up to my potential.
00:24:59.040
Well, who's calling you on that if it's not your own conscience?
00:25:03.520
If it's not your own knowledge that there's more to you, then you're allowing out into
00:25:07.600
the world for cowardice and for whatever reason.
00:25:12.800
And so, and then, and then this is how this ends.
00:25:15.740
So, I've been very interested in mythological stories.
00:25:22.940
The first lecture was on the first sentence in Genesis.
00:25:27.760
A three-hour lecture on the first sentence of Genesis.
00:25:30.240
Turns out to be a relatively important sentence.
00:25:36.820
The idea is that here's how to look at the world.
00:25:40.680
The world, being, here's how to look at reality.
00:25:50.060
It hasn't yet been called forth into existence.
00:25:53.820
There's a structure that can call it forth into existence.
00:25:57.420
That's represented as God in the Old Testament.
00:25:59.820
Whatever God is, is the structure that can interact with potential.
00:26:08.760
And there's a process that is involved in that.
00:26:21.180
To make a determination that you're going to make it good.
00:26:27.040
And then to speak it into being in the proper manner.
00:26:32.240
And God does that over about a seven-day period.
00:26:34.520
And every time he does it, he says, and it was good.
00:26:46.480
And if it's true, it's like the most important theory that there is.
00:26:56.000
It can motivate you to do things that are so highness.
00:26:59.560
That if you watched yourself doing them, they would permanently damage you.
00:27:04.620
That's what happens when you develop post-traumatic stress disorder.
00:27:30.260
If that was how the world was literally structured.
00:27:35.560
And the decisions that we make day to day as conscious beings.
00:27:39.500
Determine whether things tilt off into some hellish direction.
00:27:48.020
Well, it does seem to be how your consciousness works.
00:27:51.140
It is the reason that our whole culture has decided that you're the cornerstone of the state.
00:27:56.760
And that you have the right and the responsibility to vote.
00:27:59.100
And to make decisions about the direction of society itself.
00:28:06.880
I mean, you want your friends to assume that you have moral responsibility and capability.
00:28:18.020
You assume that they are responsible moral agents.
00:28:27.900
And if your society doesn't assume that you should do that.
00:29:24.380
Which I think is a perfectly bloody good answer.
00:30:05.460
And it puts a heavy moral responsibility on you.
00:30:24.740
But full of possibility that God only knows the degree to which you could unravel and develop.
00:30:34.080
You have that right in front of you all the time.
00:30:37.840
And you're not called on to be happy and to mildly amuse yourself.
00:31:05.560
If you pursued that wholeheartedly, then the despair would go.
00:31:19.140
Those little mistakes you make that you know are mistakes.
00:31:21.700
You think, well, you know, I'm just one person among seven billion.
00:31:32.240
And the weight of the world rests on your shoulders.
00:31:34.660
And it's time in the morning to get up and get at it.
00:31:39.000
Because there's lots of things that could be made better.
00:31:41.580
And you're the creature that could make them better.
00:31:48.320
And we need to start taking ourselves with the requisite seriousness.
00:31:53.880
That meaning that's associated not with happiness.
00:32:01.960
But with something like ultimate responsibility.
00:32:04.700
Because we have an ultimate possibility that resides within us in ways we don't understand.
00:32:09.640
And there's no limit, perhaps, to what we can manage if we were willing to manage it.
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00:36:42.220
Man, maybe by the time that Q&A rolls around, I'll be in top shape.
00:36:55.940
Well, it's strange because I haven't been interested or excited in talking to journalists for a very long time.
00:37:02.600
I found it very stressful, but I am, and I've got to be careful because I don't want to get cocky about this because that's a big mistake.
00:37:19.220
But I'm curious to see how it's going to work out.
00:37:27.540
I think I can keep my temper regulated, and I think I can concentrate on the questions.
00:37:34.360
And I also think that the epithets have been exhausted.
00:37:42.920
And so now the playing field, in some sense, has reversed because people have thrown every accusation that they could manage at me, and it's not working.
00:38:07.520
So, we'll see what happens, and we'll try to be careful and have some fun, maybe.
00:38:28.780
Is there a limit based upon damage or harm that is unforgivable, or should you always forgive people?
00:38:34.860
There are places you can go that it would require a miracle to come back from.
00:38:46.240
You know, there's this guy named John Wayne Gacy.
00:38:49.800
He was a serial killer of children and a clown.
00:38:57.160
And he got caught, and he asked for the death penalty.
00:39:00.780
And no wonder, like, how do you come back from that?
00:39:07.280
You know, like, there's a religious idea that at any point you can be forgiven and redeemed.
00:39:15.160
But it also, the requirement for that is that you've atoned for your sins.
00:39:22.140
You know, and like, just for an ordinary person to really think about that, you know, that you,
00:39:27.340
that you, in order to put yourself together and to place yourself where you should be placed in the order of being,
00:39:35.500
that you have to have taken responsibility for all the things you did that were beneath you.
00:39:46.180
It's moral reflection, and it's the desire to live a proper life.
00:39:49.600
But when you've done, when you've gone those places, like, how do you atone for that?
00:40:00.280
It's, and then if you can't, how can you expect anyone else to forgive you?
00:40:05.920
It's not, it, maybe people could if they knew how, but they don't.
00:40:20.660
Having said that, you don't want to carry more burden than you have to.
00:40:26.520
You know, if someone's being terrible to you, well, first of all, maybe you need to get away.
00:40:31.840
And second of all, maybe you need to understand how and why that happened.
00:40:37.420
You need a philosophy of evil, often, to understand that, let's say, generically.
00:40:42.940
Then you need to understand the particulars of that for your own life.
00:40:52.980
You know, because, but you let it go if you can, because otherwise they just keep hurting you.
00:40:59.660
You know, that's the thing is, Freud said that his neurotic subjects, patients, suffered from reminiscences.
00:41:16.040
Now, I don't know if it's precisely forgiveness that enables you to free yourself from that,
00:41:24.100
And at least letting go is some of that freeing.
00:41:29.580
But, you know, the darker the crime, the more the saint is necessary to perform the act of forgiveness.
00:41:46.340
If you can trust the person, everybody makes mistakes.
00:41:48.760
The best game is, you cooperate with me, I cooperate with you.
00:41:54.040
You make a mistake, I whack you in proportion to the seriousness of the mistake.
00:42:00.240
You tell me why you made the mistake and how you're not going to do it again.
00:42:09.780
I think it's modified tit for tat that's come out on top of those sorts of game simulations of morality.
00:42:18.560
But God, you know, I think that to forgive in an unqualified sense,
00:42:34.860
It seems to me that it's a sin to forgive Hitler.
00:42:37.440
You know what I mean, especially given the lack of atonement.
00:42:40.500
It's not like he was sorry for what he had done.
00:42:42.840
And I would also think that someone like that, to become cognizant of what you've done, and then to be sorry for it, would kill you.
00:42:53.840
You know, it's just too much to become aware of that.
00:43:04.080
If there are any politicians in the crowd right now, is there anything you'd like to say directly to them?
00:43:13.480
If you guys want to raise your hands, feel free.
00:43:33.040
You know, one of the reasons that this group we've been affiliated with, the intellectual dark web so-called loose group,
00:43:42.460
that sort of emerged spontaneously, the reason that it's been successful, a reason that it's been successful,
00:43:48.700
is because we don't think our audience is stupid.
00:43:51.800
We think they'll come along for the ride, and it turns out that they do.
00:43:58.540
And so, and then what else would I say to politicians?
00:44:03.860
Don't think, oh, well, I'll do what I need to to get elected, and then things will change.
00:44:09.580
Because what you'll do is you'll do what you need to to get elected,
00:44:13.640
and then you'll become what it was that you needed to become to get elected,
00:44:22.480
And a lot of you people at work are thinking the same way, you know.
00:44:25.760
It's like, well, I have to go along with the game for now.
00:44:28.780
It's like, and look, I know there are times when you have to bide your time.
00:44:38.680
You have to be a warrior, you know, if you're trying to set things right.
00:44:43.020
But don't be thinking that, well, I'll just go along with it for now,
00:44:47.480
and then at some point I'll be in a position where I can really change things,
00:44:50.480
because by that time there will be very little left of you.
00:44:53.380
And I see this, like I've seen this in universities all the time.
00:44:59.620
Jesus, I've got to write what the professor wants,
00:45:05.320
because there are very few professors that are so corrupt that they will downgrade you
00:45:09.640
if you write a good essay that they don't agree with.
00:45:15.620
And if they do that, there are ways of calling them on it.
00:45:18.600
But anyways, you say, well, whatever, I'll just write what the professor wants.
00:45:23.740
You'll change the way you think while you do that,
00:45:29.700
And then you're a graduate student, and you think,
00:45:31.360
well, I can't make waves, man, because I've got to publish papers,
00:45:46.100
because if I get myself in trouble, then I won't make tenure.
00:45:53.080
because you've trained yourself to be a coward for 20 years.
00:45:59.520
but you've trained yourself to be a coward for 20 years.
00:46:06.960
maybe in the Western world, being a tenured professor.
00:46:11.380
Are you going to be brave and stand up to the administration?
00:46:13.960
It's like, I can tell you, I see damn little of that.
00:46:25.000
and they can pursue pretty much what they want,
00:46:36.580
It's like, if you think that there's something more powerful than the truth,
00:46:49.680
Because how the hell can there possibly be anything more powerful than the truth?
00:47:08.380
and you can shape it, as we already pointed out,
00:47:18.040
which is not an easy thing to align yourself carefully with the truth,
00:47:23.900
And there isn't anything more powerful than that.
00:47:37.660
You might be in way better position in a year or two years.
00:47:43.640
like a genie who grants wishes right in this second.
00:47:52.860
It's a lifetime commitment to a certain mode of being.
00:47:57.460
You know, and it's associated with the last thing I said in the lecture tonight.
00:48:01.760
It's like, and this is the requirement of faith, I would say.
00:48:06.300
You need faith because you don't know everything.
00:48:10.860
Because you don't know everything, and it fills the gap.
00:48:17.580
Now you think, oh my God, you know, I've told the truth,
00:48:26.040
And the answer is, well, it isn't going to prevail like this second,
00:48:39.320
It's the strategy of someone who wants to win the war,
00:48:46.800
and maybe they'll make you stronger, the loss of the battles,
00:48:50.900
It's like, so if you're a politician out there,
00:48:53.760
it's like, don't be thinking that your people are stupid.
00:49:03.240
because you want to call forth the best in them,
00:49:09.040
And don't be afraid to allow yourself with the truth
00:49:12.740
because you'll find that if you do that and you do it well,
00:49:15.720
that you'll have more allies than you know what to do with,
00:49:22.040
So that's what I would say to the politicians in the crowd.
00:49:58.180
He didn't really get, grow up until he was like 40.
00:50:06.260
you know, he was doing a pretty good job of it.
00:50:16.320
And I said, well, what do you envision when you retire?
00:50:24.520
on a tropical beach with like a Mai Tai in my hand.
00:50:46.440
Okay, so first of all, you go down to a tropical beach,
00:51:02.360
and you look like a complete bloody fool, right?
00:51:31.920
And I think it's important when people are thinking about it.
00:51:35.580
you'd worked in the coal mine till you were 42.
00:52:04.980
And sitting on the beach with a Mai Tai in your hand,
00:52:11.420
So, you know, I'm going to keep doing interesting things
00:52:23.000
And, you know, I want to pay as much attention as I can to my family
00:52:29.860
But I'm not out of, as long as my health holds out,
00:52:35.260
There's all these problems we talked about tonight to solve.
00:52:38.060
And, you know, I want to stagger forward against that
00:52:45.000
Because there isn't anything better to do than that.
00:52:47.900
And I'm after what there isn't anything better to do than.
00:53:06.020
You should do the best thing you can conceptualize.
00:53:17.900
But at least you have the nobility of the effort.
00:53:22.600
And God only knows what you might be able to accomplish in the meantime, you know.
00:53:26.620
I read Socrates' Apology, which I would very much recommend.
00:53:33.160
You know, the people of Athens wanted to kill him, the aristocrats,
00:53:39.920
He was always asking questions and telling the truth.
00:53:42.760
And so he's very annoying, corrupting the youth with his truth-seeking.
00:53:49.140
And they told him, look, we're going to put you on trial, you old goat, in six months.
00:53:56.520
You know, because otherwise, why would they just come and murder him in his sleep?
00:54:05.580
And he went off and had this consultation with this faculty, internal faculty, he called
00:54:11.840
his daemon, which I think we would equate with conscience.
00:54:15.840
He said he had a voice in his head, a voice that always told him that if what he was doing
00:54:28.640
That was what made him different than other people.
00:54:30.580
If his daemon said, that's wrong, then he shut up, or he didn't do it.
00:54:35.800
And he made a vow, you know, like it was a divine vow.
00:54:41.780
And that's what made the Delphic Oracle said that he was the wisest man in Greece, you know.
00:54:48.940
And he went off and had a little chat with his daemon once he got the court order.
00:54:57.940
And he thought, what the hell do you mean, don't leave?
00:55:15.720
So Socrates did what a philosopher would do, who'd already made a vow.
00:55:19.360
He said, well, you know, in for a penny, in for a pound, I already decided that I'm going
00:55:29.860
And he thought, well, okay, if I was wrong, and I should stay, why?
00:55:34.660
Well, he said, I'm old, because he was in his 70s, maybe older at that point.
00:55:42.360
It's like, next 10 years, you know, it's going to be kind of rough on me.
00:56:03.100
And I can say to the jurors what I have to say when I am put on trial.
00:56:11.140
And so he thought, he told all his friends, no, not leaving.
00:56:15.200
And they wanted him to leave, because they liked having him around.
00:56:37.060
And it's amazing, because Socrates, now having decided that he wasn't afraid of death, or he
00:56:44.380
was more afraid of something else, I suppose, which is different, just flipped the table.
00:56:52.100
He just went from jurist to jurist, telling them everything he had seen that they were doing
00:57:01.440
You know, he told one guy, well, you know, you're corrupt, and you've been a horrible
00:57:05.040
father, and your son is a wastrel and an alcoholic, and everybody knows it, and six months after
00:57:09.440
I'm dead, he's going to destroy your life, and you're going to deserve it richly.
00:57:13.400
And that was like one story, and he had like a dozen of those.
00:57:16.260
And then he went through everyone and said what he had to say, and then you knew why they
00:57:21.120
And he said, you know, bring on the hemlock, and that was that.
00:57:25.740
And, and what, well, so what's the point of the story?
00:57:31.660
If you live your life enough, maybe that's enough.
00:57:35.300
You know, because that's another way of thinking about death.
00:57:38.340
You know, I mean, I'm perfectly happy to try to maintain my youth to the degree that that's
00:57:46.500
But I have a suspicion that if you lived your life fully, right?
00:57:50.740
If you exhausted yourself, if you, if you made use of all the potential that was around
00:57:57.120
you and within you, that when you were done, you'd be done.
00:58:09.780
That because I've had kids, and I wouldn't have kids again.
00:58:14.460
Not, and not because I didn't love having kids.
00:58:16.700
I did, but I did that already, and it doesn't call to me anymore.
00:58:20.500
You know, I don't have an ambition to have kids again.
00:58:24.700
You know, and I've had a, one, one career, and I wouldn't have that career again, because
00:58:32.060
You know, and so maybe you can exhaust yourself.
00:58:35.540
And I guess that would be the hope for retirement, is that I can just exhaust myself.
00:58:44.320
And I can just let go and think, you know, that was a hell of an adventure.
00:58:48.620
Which is, I think, the right thing to think about your life.
00:58:54.160
It's like, it's like, it was a hell of an adventure.
00:58:58.420
You know, maybe it'd be worth, maybe it'd be worth doing it again, even, if I had the
00:59:02.760
That was Nietzsche's idea, the myth of the eternal return.
00:59:05.920
You should live your life so that if you had to live it again and again, into eternity,
00:59:10.800
that you would say yes to that as a possibility.
00:59:13.480
That's something, something frightening to behold.
00:59:16.620
So, if you have your adventure, well, that's what I want.
00:59:35.560
That, that seemed like the right ending, but you want one bonus one.
00:59:42.400
Have you thought about just giving free copies of 12 Rules for Life to the protesters outside?
01:00:08.720
Um, you know, I've been in situations where I've faced like this animus, possessed, naked
01:00:20.880
hostility, you know, often with journalists and often with protesters.
01:00:39.960
And so, I'm not inclined to, especially not in a mob.
01:00:48.320
Sometimes you can get underneath the puppet master, let's say, and have a conversation with the person.
01:00:56.080
But that ideological possession, especially in a group, it's like a, it's like a league of demons.
01:01:07.700
It's, it's not something I'm interested in, in exposing myself to any more than necessary.
01:01:16.420
They, it's responded to as if it's currying favor.
01:01:19.840
And so, they can buy the damn book just like everybody else.
01:01:40.060
On that note, guys, I'm going to get out of the way and make some noise for Dr. Jordan Peterson.
01:02:24.780
If you found this conversation meaningful, you might think about picking up Dad's books,
01:02:29.020
Maps of Meaning, The Architecture of Belief, or his newer bestseller, 12 Rules for Life,
01:02:34.780
Both of these works delve much deeper into the topics covered in the Jordan B. Peterson podcast.
01:02:39.560
See jordanbpeterson.com for audio, e-book, and text links, or pick up the books at your favorite
01:02:45.140
Remember to check out jordanbpeterson.com slash personality for information on his new course.
01:02:51.160
Tag Jordan or I on Instagram to share your results from the Discovering Personality course.
01:02:58.840
Follow me on my YouTube channel, Jordan B. Peterson, on Twitter, at Jordan B. Peterson, on Facebook,
01:03:06.860
at Dr. Jordan B. Peterson, and at Instagram, at jordan.b.peterson.
01:03:11.900
Details on this show, access to my blog, information about my tour dates and other events, and my list of
01:03:19.360
recommended books, can be found on my website, jordanbpeterson.com.
01:03:24.480
My online writing programs, designed to help people straighten out their pasts, understand
01:03:29.740
themselves in the present, and develop a sophisticated vision and strategy for the future,