The King's Hall - Revivalism & Decisionism

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00:00:37.800 In the woods of New York State in the 1820s, there was a man whose name was Joseph Smith.

00:00:44.640 He had retreated to the peace and tranquility of the forest in order to pray.

00:00:49.140 While praying, he allegedly had a vision.

00:00:51.620 In this vision, God and Jesus Christ appeared to him and told him his sins were forgiven

00:00:58.700 and that all contemporary churches had turned aside from the gospel.

00:01:04.120 He would go on to form one of the largest cults in the world,

00:01:07.460 known today as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

00:01:12.020 Also in the 1820s, just 90 miles away from where Joseph Smith had his vision,

00:01:17.460 another man had a life-altering spiritual experience in the woods of New York.

00:01:23.220 This man had come to the point in his life where he needed to finally decide if he was going to follow Jesus or not.

00:01:30.160 That man described his experience in those woods with the following words,

00:01:35.560 The Holy Spirit descended upon me in such a manner that seemed to go through me, body and soul.

00:01:42.260 I could feel the impression, like a wave of electricity going through and through me.

00:01:48.820 Indeed, it seemed to come in waves and waves of liquid love, for I could not express it in any other way.

00:01:56.720 It seemed like the very breath of God.

00:02:00.660 Who was this man?

00:02:02.300 None other than the father of modern-day revivalism, Charles G. Finney.

00:02:07.480 the king's hall podcast exists to make self-ruled men who rule well and win the world

00:02:14.460 good old chuck finney well welcome back to the king's hall i'm brian sauve and i'm here with

00:02:21.800 my friends dan burkholder and eric khan and here in this first season we're talking about

00:02:27.440 christendom not not waves of liquid love not waves of liquid what the heck was that

00:02:33.700 Thank you. We are not talking about waves of liquid love. No, we are talking about Christendom.

00:02:39.400 We're talking about building a great big cathedral of Christendom, the next Christendom,

00:02:45.720 Christendom 2.0, and what that will look like. So specifically in these first episodes,

00:02:51.480 we are identifying some of the strip malls and shanty towns that Christians have built 0.99

00:02:56.100 on our job site, on the site where we'd like to build this great Christendom cathedral. 0.99

00:03:01.380 and what we need to do to tear them down and clear the way for our cathedral to go up.

00:03:07.520 So we talked about the big, fast, and famous strip mall that will have to be torn down,

00:03:12.420 this franchised megachurch model built on CEO, celebrity, pastor personalities,

00:03:18.380 built on this idea that church should be malleable to marketing,

00:03:23.120 that we should be luring people into the church for a worship experience

00:03:26.880 in order to bait and switch them into a gospel presentation, et cetera.

00:03:31.240 all of that kind of thing. So now sometimes one of the most helpful questions that you can ask

00:03:36.360 about some model or idea that you want to assess or critique or critically understand would be the

00:03:42.400 question, where did this come from? What are the origins of this idea? And when you ask that

00:03:50.040 question of the big, fast, and famous model, one of the answers that inevitably results is the

00:03:56.020 conclusion that our shallow modern megachurch movement is directly descended. You could say

00:04:01.620 that the great, great grandfather of this model is an older pair of models or ideas that we might

00:04:07.760 call decisionism and revivalism, decisionism and revivalism. And so in this episode, we're going

00:04:15.140 to turn our sights on decisionism and revivalism and explain why we believe that this is one of

00:04:21.840 the things that will need to go. This model will need to go if the church is to press forward and

00:04:28.340 build Christendom 2.0. So first question, guys, when we say those two terms, decisionism and

00:04:34.880 revivalism, what do we mean? And to be honest, I was hoping that Dan might give us a brief history

00:04:41.580 of revivalism, if that's okay with you, Dan. Yeah. So decisionism is fairly simple. I mean,

00:04:48.780 it's making a decision for Jesus. We've all heard this term before. Make a decision for Jesus. Raise

00:04:53.700 your hand if you made a decision for Jesus. Pray the sinner's prayer. Did you make the decision 1.00

00:04:57.300 for Jesus? And revivalism is typically, I mean, from just the most charitable definition I can

00:05:04.360 give is like a movement of the Holy Spirit amongst the people, okay? Yeah. And so we saw this. This

00:05:09.680 is really particular to American Christianity, and it's a really fascinating period in history.

00:05:14.860 So we see the first echoes of this in the first great awakening with men such as George

00:05:20.560 Whitfield and Jonathan Edwards, who are two very well-educated, they're theologically

00:05:27.280 astute, seminary-trained, I mean, just giants of the faith.

00:05:34.280 And so they're coming out of their churches and they're preaching to crowds of people,

00:05:39.920 and they would travel for miles and miles around in order to hear these great men.

00:05:44.860 We have a second Great Awakening on the heels of that.

00:05:48.880 Really, it gets going in the 1800s.

00:05:52.280 The 1820s to 1870s, just a fascinating period of history.

00:05:57.360 If you're curious, a couple of books that I recommend,

00:06:01.060 A History of the American Peoples by Paul Johnson is pretty good.

00:06:04.340 I mean, granted, it's like a, I don't know, a thousand pages,

00:06:06.920 and it only talks about this for like 50, but it's a really good book.

00:06:11.800 Uh, the other one is by Bruce Shelley, uh, church history in plain language, which sounds

00:06:17.240 more approachable to a man of my intellect, plain language language.

00:06:21.680 No.

00:06:22.260 So the second great awakening is really where we get the modern idea of decisionism and

00:06:27.580 revivalism.

00:06:28.800 It, and like I said, it happened in the 1820s, 1870s during this time, I'm just going to

00:06:34.460 go through the different movements.

00:06:35.640 Cause this is also known as the apocalyptic movement where we get things like the Unitarian

00:06:41.040 church. I don't know if you know about Unitarian Universalism. Not good. I call it the what's the

00:06:46.600 point church. Like if you're right, why should I go to your church? Because it's, I mean, we're

00:06:51.060 all going to heaven, baby. But it is crazy in the early to mid 1800s, Unitarianism really became

00:06:58.260 dominant force in America. Yes. And really fueled most of the modern feminist movement. Early people.

00:07:04.980 Oh yeah. Good shelter. Caddy Stanton, you know, all those people, Unitarian influence. Yeah.

00:07:10.460 the feminization of america is another conversation worth having but this period was really like with

00:07:16.600 the the pure uh the abolition not the abolitionist movement what's the uh the temperance temperance

00:07:22.220 movement yeah yeah yeah the temperance movement was big during this time and so because of the

00:07:27.920 strong emphasis from females within the stop drinking churches yeah uh no no in honor of uh

00:07:35.560 St. Patty's day. We're having a little, uh, green spots. Very nice. Irish whiskey. Anyway, 0.75

00:07:40.740 seventh day at Venice, 1844, um, which is a really funny story. If you ever want to look it up,

00:07:46.940 uh, from William Miller and the Miller rights, he was the, there's an event it's called the

00:07:53.220 great disappointment. That was like what he's known for, which is terrible. He, he predicted

00:07:57.700 the coming of Christ and it didn't happen obviously on that day. And it's called the

00:08:01.740 great disappointment, but it was, he came back spiritually anyway. Uh, eventually they became

00:08:06.780 known as the seventh day Adventist church. You have Mormonism. Like we read in the introduction 1.00

00:08:10.780 from Joseph Smith and his visions and his gold plates. And we're in Utah. So we, and he said,

00:08:16.520 no one else ever saw them. Yes. Yes. Uh, we also have the Jehovah's witness movement, uh,

00:08:25.240 dispensationalism, uh, which was actually in Ireland. All of it is coming out of this time, 0.98

00:08:31.340 time period yep yeah yeah so so yeah i'll go back through the years i should have done that

00:08:35.480 nuts you also have modern spiritualism uh which with the fox sisters crazy story where they would 0.93

00:08:41.720 say like hello mr split foot do as i do and then they would make echoing sounds to one another it

00:08:46.840 was a sham like they went yeah they were yeah they were but it it like spun up this whole

00:08:53.760 this whole spiritualistic movement it's crazy also the first church of christian science

00:08:58.480 so all this neither christian nor scientific so for the record all of this happened between

00:09:03.920 1825 and 1879 all of those movements that's insane when you think about dan how much those

00:09:12.080 movements have impacted our world today and you know we sort of have historical amnesia so you

00:09:18.760 think they've always existed they haven't no they haven't they're very very recent man and so

00:09:23.920 getting back to our decisionism and revivalism where did that come from well it was during this

00:09:30.260 time period you had a hyper spiritualized and individualistic sort of mentality amongst the

00:09:36.600 people and this is where charles finney enters in to the conversation who is known as the father of

00:09:43.240 modern revivalism and and the reason that he was successful is because he was a good propagandist

00:09:50.160 he also had bad theology he wasn't actually formally trained wait are you saying that

00:09:55.640 liquid love is bad theology yes yes i am well no i mean like he was a hair tech he was a full

00:10:03.060 like he denied he denied original sin and so the the predominant calvinist idea at the time was

00:10:10.100 you pray for revival you pray that god's spirit would move you pray that people would be saved

00:10:15.140 and he said you guys have it all wrong these revivals actually just need to happen because

00:10:21.300 you want them to happen and we should use essentially a science equation in order to

00:10:26.400 make them happen because as a pelagian he believes that there's nothing inhibiting people

00:10:30.980 from jesus other than their own will so they just need to choose jesus and so some of the methods

00:10:37.820 that he used and i don't i i mean i could go on for 45 minutes talking about this but he used

00:10:43.840 something called an anxious bench to where he's preaching a lot of hellfire and brimstone and

00:10:50.600 making people just feel terrible. And there, if there was someone in the crowd that began to look

00:10:56.920 weepy or expected some sort of movement of the spirit, because they were still, they were doing

00:11:01.660 like, like barking and laughing and, and fainting in the spirit, like all this crazy supernatural

00:11:07.500 kind of stuff. And so if somebody thought that this was happening, he would point them out and

00:11:12.380 call them up front and the bench faced the people. So they would sit and then everybody is praying

00:11:17.400 for this person to have some sort of crazy experience. Right. And so it's like, uh, I heard

00:11:22.780 one, one, uh, historian call it a spiritual pressure cooker to where it's like really intense

00:11:29.580 trying to get some sort of emotions. And that's really what he was a master of was stirring the

00:11:34.760 emotions of the people in order to get these crazy responses so that they would freely make decisions

00:11:40.840 for jesus because again there's nothing stopping people from being christians other than their

00:11:47.300 choice and so you can see how this could become a problem going forward as people saw these i mean

00:11:53.940 in the kentucky camp meetings you would have anywhere from 10 000 to 22 000 people at these

00:11:59.200 revivals and and this people just wanted to come to these things it was crazy times and so

00:12:05.340 individualistic society very spiritual leaning at this time and so they want wanted to just

00:12:13.580 manipulate people's emotions in order to make decisions for jesus christ and that is the

00:12:18.800 foundations of the movement that we know today as like uh billy graham these mass evangelistic

00:12:25.900 even uh greg laurie and harvest america uh and our our uh altar calls are from from that time

00:12:34.180 period as well. So those are really some of the basic roots of where we get revivalism and

00:12:40.180 decisionism. Yeah. I was going to say, it's really interesting. So like when I was in college,

00:12:43.720 we'd go to like a Jeremy camp concert and you know what you're describing, it actually wasn't

00:12:48.080 all that different. Like play the music real loud. People are like, you know, raising hands

00:12:52.880 and sort of like crying and getting emotional because you know, a concert is a very like a

00:12:57.760 deafening, but also this emotionalistic environment, you know, they bring out a pretty

00:13:03.220 girl to sing on stage and you're a college guy and you're like, you know, it's just an emotional

00:13:09.020 experience, right? Well, a lot of stimuli. Yeah, there really is. And then, and then honestly,

00:13:14.480 like when I first came back to like a Missouri Synod Lutheran church, and then what we would

00:13:20.240 do now with covenant renewal worship, I was kind of like, well, that's boring. Because it's actually,

00:13:26.220 we're actually trying to do something different, which actually like, it's not about this super

00:13:30.000 emotionalistic experience. Um, there's not a decision point, um, in the service. I mean,

00:13:36.120 that was something we were talking about offline, but when I was at chapel at Southern Seminary,

00:13:41.020 I remember Erwin Lutzer preaching and he came in and he started mimicking Billy Graham and people,

00:13:46.020 you know, look like Al Mohler was going to have like a heart attack or something.

00:13:48.660 Was he doing it as a joke? It was a joke. Oh, okay. He was, he was like kind of making fun

00:13:52.440 of it. Yeah. He was legit. He was like, come on down to the front. I can feel the spirit now

00:13:56.440 moving brothers and we were all like i mean i thought it was hilarious i was dying of laughter

00:14:01.340 i didn't grow up as a southern baptist i just thought it was hilarious oh that the baptist

00:14:06.600 part was what was what i was missing and now i get it yes you're like all of us got saved in a

00:14:11.040 billy exactly so i look around and i'm the only one laughing and everybody is like stone-faced

00:14:16.900 in the crowd but again go to southern baptist a lot of southern baptist churches in the south

00:14:21.460 today they still are doing stuff like this um yeah Billy Graham was known uh one of the books uh

00:14:27.700 Ian Murray I think revival and revivalism they talk a lot about this too but like he was known

00:14:33.060 for like playing the music faster letting the prayer play that song another time and like and

00:14:38.720 they would get the ushers and they would say hey can you walk faster down the aisles and say

00:14:42.360 you know because everybody's you know eyes closed heads down but Billy would say things like do you

00:14:47.680 hear all the people coming to Jesus. Like you're missing out, brother. Like it was to build angst

00:14:52.420 into, again, it all comes down to emotional manipulation. Yeah. So there's an interesting

00:14:58.600 story from Charles Finney, who you're talking about, uh, Erwin Lutzer, you know, making fun

00:15:02.840 of Billy Graham. Well, there's a story early on in his career where he goes to this church and

00:15:07.760 it's a Baptist church. It's small. And he gets, he's been preaching for a little while and he's

00:15:11.880 like, everybody's complimenting my preaching, but I just don't think their faith is serious enough.

00:15:16.500 And I don't know what he used to determine that or not,

00:15:19.620 but there's one Sunday where he's like enough.

00:15:22.040 He preaches fire and brimstone.

00:15:23.840 Everybody's like,

00:15:24.440 yeah,

00:15:24.600 yeah,

00:15:24.740 yeah.

00:15:24.900 And he's like,

00:15:25.880 so here's the decision point.

00:15:27.820 Cause I don't think you guys are real.

00:15:29.780 If you stay seated,

00:15:31.080 then you are choosing to not follow Jesus Christ.

00:15:34.720 And so I want everybody to stand if you choose Jesus Christ and everybody.

00:15:39.800 And he even says in his,

00:15:41.280 in his memoir,

00:15:42.320 Finney.

00:15:42.660 Yeah.

00:15:43.240 Even in his memoir,

00:15:44.200 he says that the people were confused.

00:15:46.060 and they all stay seated and he said you've made your choice you're all going to hell it's essentially

00:15:51.440 what he said and they all started getting mad so they leave he's like i'm going to preach more

00:15:57.280 tomorrow night and so there are people that were so mad there was one guy who brought a gun because

00:16:01.120 he was going to kill him no and so he starts preaching so emotions are hot right and so he 0.52

00:16:06.240 gets a bigger crowd the second night because they're like this guy he's nuts he just said 0.93

00:16:10.060 you know everybody's going to hell that went to this church by the third night the whole town had 0.89

00:16:14.580 shown up and they were all whooped up. And then they're all of a sudden there was a movement of

00:16:18.200 the spirit, right? It's just, it's just so it's, it's kind of funny. It's about the emotional

00:16:23.580 frenzy, right? All about the emotional frenzy. And a lot of these, these issues you can see

00:16:28.460 they they're all connected. Yeah. You know, decisionism and revivalism and big, fast and

00:16:33.500 famous, they're all connected. When, when you start to like decisionism, basically theologically,

00:16:37.720 the error is that you're conflating the, the, the new birth, which is something that is spirit

00:16:44.460 wrought. It's an inward God given supernatural act of the Holy spirit to make somebody born again,

00:16:51.660 to take out their heart of stone, give them a heart of flesh to do all of that. And, and what

00:16:56.220 decisionism does, even, even in people that theologically in their head, they're thinking,

00:17:00.440 well, I know that if somebody gets saved, it's because God brought conversion to them.

00:17:04.700 But what can start to happen is that people conflate the human activity, the human response with as being identical to the salvation of the sinner.

00:17:15.560 You know, and this is where you even get, you know, I remember I had a, I've had people who would say, man, it really sounded like, you know, in the sermon today, you were saying that someone could make a profession of faith and then later abandon the faith and prove not to be a Christian.

00:17:31.620 But don't you believe once saved, always saved?

00:17:33.540 Like if they prayed the prayer, if they said the thing.

00:17:35.780 And I was like, well, there is such thing as a false profession.

00:17:40.060 Yeah.

00:17:40.220 And we're not Gnostics.

00:17:41.400 We're not Gnostics.

00:17:42.320 Right.

00:17:42.660 This isn't like a saved by secret knowledge, secret passcode kind of thing.

00:17:46.800 No.

00:17:47.400 Right.

00:17:47.580 So you get this, you get these, this confusion that even if, even if the person giving the

00:17:53.800 altar call is not theologically confused about what happens when someone is saved, the people

00:17:58.460 at large often get confused.

00:18:01.180 We'll see you next time.

00:18:31.180 We'd love to partner with you.

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00:18:40.980 So for this episode, I did some research looking at different altar calls from big mega churches.

00:18:47.440 And you know what's wild?

00:18:48.420 So I'm watching these altar calls.

00:18:50.160 You're saying to God, I will, I will trust Christ.

00:18:54.260 The choir is going to sing while they're singing you come right now.

00:19:01.180 that's right quickly right up out of your seat everywhere you come

00:19:06.060 while these many people are coming here bow your head say yes to christ let him come into

00:19:21.660 your life and make you a new person change the whole direction of your life you can do it right

00:19:27.040 now god bless you okay so now you have heard one nice so the the wild thing is i'm watching these

00:19:33.920 and i know what's happening and still they're so good at manipulating your emotions to where

00:19:40.120 i'm feeling like kind of anxious a little bit yeah and it's because of the lighting because

00:19:44.780 the man on stage or woman whatever one whatever clip we ended up using has some sort of gravity

00:19:50.280 in in the camber of their speech and kind of the weight that they're laying down and then you have

00:19:55.820 like that low music in the background yeah that's like pushing down on you i mean it's it's just

00:20:01.860 wild and then they're like trying to put you on the spot like there's some something i'm expecting

00:20:06.520 you to do anyway i just found myself like even getting anxious watching these things yeah so

00:20:12.380 it's just wild what they're trying to do and this is the culture and i want to i want to get your

00:20:16.280 guys thoughts on this because one this is one we're starting to move into some of the issues

00:20:19.620 with this model why why do we think this needs to go because let me make it clear we don't believe

00:20:24.740 that every single aspect of, you know, somebody making an altar call, anytime an altar call has

00:20:30.300 been given, anytime someone's done evangelism where they're calling somebody to, you know,

00:20:34.620 come to faith in Christ. Of course, we see that in scripture. We're not throwing out the doctrine

00:20:39.340 of conversion. We're not throwing out the centrality of the cross. We're not throwing

00:20:44.100 out the importance of missions. What we're talking about is a methodology that fundamentally on the

00:20:50.260 theological level is an error and yet has become massively popular. And because of that theological

00:20:57.100 error, it has led to errors of practice. So one of the things I wanted to get your thoughts on,

00:21:03.980 guys, is the relationship between exactly what you're talking about and this existential angst

00:21:12.820 that many Christians in America feel, where they walk around condemned every day of their life.

00:21:20.260 because they know deep down that they're not continually feeling this emotional high.

00:21:24.920 They're not like on the mountaintop with God.

00:21:27.860 Maybe they think back and they're like, was I really saved in that moment?

00:21:31.660 Did I really have an extreme enough experience?

00:21:34.520 Did I really?

00:21:35.540 And this is the thing, in my opinion, decisionism and revivalism is what's led to this culture

00:21:40.280 of people rededicating their lives to Christ 15 times, people getting baptized seven or

00:21:45.200 eight times, you know, every youth camp, every junior higher getting saved again. And instead

00:21:51.600 of helping our, our, uh, our brothers and sisters and the sheep and our flock and our, you know,

00:21:56.380 the youth and our church and our own children develop a solid assurance. That's not based on

00:22:01.820 their emotional response to God moment to moment, but on the factual reality of the objectivity of

00:22:10.820 what Christ has done in his covenant on the cross. Do you guys see that connection? Do you have any

00:22:15.580 thoughts there? Yeah, I think it was really big. So like high school years and into college,

00:22:21.680 you know, my mom would take us to church and it was, well, the church was called Praise Church

00:22:26.900 and it was a big kind of early form of the mega church. Yeah. So probably 600 to a thousand

00:22:33.640 people. Yeah. Cause you're, you're pretty old. This was like the 1940s. This is yeah. So this

00:22:39.500 is probably like mid nineties. Okay. Gotcha. Sorry. So, you know, again, praise and worship

00:22:44.140 style music, they would have, they'd bring in some like what I would have called like Southern

00:22:48.800 hellfire and brimstone preacher. Um, and then at the end of the service, again, they would have an

00:22:53.480 altar call. You would go forward, they would lay your hand, their hands on you and you would be

00:22:57.800 slain in the spirit and fall backwards and whatever. And I remember being like, you know,

00:23:01.800 13 and going up there and I was like, mom, that guy pushed me down. I don't understand.

00:23:05.360 I don't understand what happened.

00:23:08.060 So then you go from that experience and then to college.

00:23:10.460 It was a lot of the same stuff that we're talking about.

00:23:13.440 Just really everything was about an emotional experience.

00:23:16.480 You were not well grounded in the word.

00:23:19.480 One of the things that I ended up reading John Piper's book, Desiring God.

00:23:23.520 I really enjoyed that book for a long time.

00:23:25.540 But once I became covenantal Presbyterian, I really can't stand the book anymore.

00:23:30.960 And the reason is because everything is about your emotional experience.

00:23:33.820 so one of the most freeing things that ever happened to me um you know i grew up in this

00:23:38.340 this world where john piper baptist churches you go to church and every time you're in church you're

00:23:45.200 like was my experience good enough you're basically like justification by emotional experience and he

00:23:51.820 wouldn't teach that but that's functionally what happens and i remember going to a presbyterian

00:23:55.960 church pastor bill smith he's in illinois now crec pastor and i remember the absolution of sin bill

00:24:03.180 said, he said, how you feel right now does not matter at all. What matters are the words that

00:24:09.040 Jesus Christ speaks over you, that you are forgiven. And I remember thinking in that moment,

00:24:14.080 I was like, I'm, I'm free. I'm free from having to base my entire religious, my assurance,

00:24:20.040 my religious experience. It's all based on religious experience. And now it's, I believe

00:24:24.760 the promise, you know, my justification is in my faith in Jesus Christ, not on how I feel

00:24:30.700 on any given Sunday in a, in a, in a worship service. So I think that whole experience is,

00:24:36.920 it really ends up condemning a lot of people. It seems freeing, but it's not. And I think they

00:24:42.600 were responding to like the old dead liturgy, which, which I get, but they just went the

00:24:47.140 complete other ditch. Yeah. That actually in, in my notes from one of the things that I found

00:24:52.520 kind of searching out the origins of this revivalism and you, you find that some of it

00:24:58.860 it isn't just 1800s, like some of it stretches back the roots. And one of the roots that was

00:25:04.460 kind of surprising to me, but once I thought about it, I was like, yeah, that makes total sense is

00:25:08.940 that, you know, the rise of revivalism in the American church was partly a critique of what

00:25:14.200 some Protestants saw as sacramentalism, formalism, dead ritual, you know, things that they were,

00:25:22.960 they were rejecting in the Anglican church, the church of England, the Roman Catholic church.

00:25:26.820 and they, they were saying, we don't want this dead tradition or rigid formalism.

00:25:32.200 We want real authentic response to, to God. We don't want to, you know, teach people to depend

00:25:39.060 on, yeah, say your hail Marys or go to this painting and do this ritual. And, and that will

00:25:44.140 save you. Well, we want people really to know God and to know Christ. But, but I think that one of

00:25:49.820 the dangers, one of the, one, because what we're talking about, there's, there is a ditch of dead

00:25:54.820 formalism. It's a real thing. And many of the errors of Roman Catholicism are errors in that

00:26:01.460 ditch, right? But we can go to the other ditch and all of a sudden we're telling people, we're 0.61

00:26:08.920 rejecting formalism, but then we actually end up rejecting form too. We say, well, we don't want

00:26:14.960 like these formal liturgies that everybody just has to walk through as a dead ceremony. But then

00:26:21.120 what happens is you end up getting rid of all forms. And the problem is Christianity actually 0.99

00:26:25.940 is about being conformed to a form. And some of those things are gifts, like the assurance of 0.78

00:26:32.340 pardon, the form every week in our church where Pastor Dan or I or Pastor Kevin stands up and

00:26:37.960 says, you know, as a minister of the gospel of Christ, I declare that the entire forgiveness of

00:26:41.800 sins is effective through the washing of Christ's blood, something to that effect. So, you know,

00:26:45.860 all who repent in this way, you're forgiven. You're clean. You're that form. Like, thank the

00:26:52.060 Lord. I get to be pressed into that mold instead of the mold of individualism, my mold, everybody

00:26:59.360 making their own mold of what it means to be a Christian and what it means to respond to Christ.

00:27:02.920 And you know, what's really interesting with these altar calls and the emotionalism that

00:27:06.940 you're talking about. I think about it like a cocktail. You have like this, you have a lot of

00:27:12.820 truth. Actually, even in these, some of these churches that I would consider to be false

00:27:17.480 churches, they're sharing what I would expect in a, in like a member interview. When I asked

00:27:23.780 somebody, what is the gospel? They're actually sharing the gospel. There is truth there in this

00:27:29.800 cocktail, but what also is mixed in, and it's really interesting what you said, Eric, was this

00:27:35.740 emotionalism versus covenant theology yeah versus your covenant standing yeah so if your standing

00:27:43.760 is based on your emotions or the decisions that you made that's you are in trouble you are in

00:27:51.020 trouble versus the covenant standing jesus saying like i am covering you with my blood you are mine

00:27:58.900 you were adopted, your standing is before God with confidence,

00:28:04.100 before the throne of God with confidence.

00:28:07.180 Whereas like Charles Finney, he said this,

00:28:10.540 whenever a man sins, he must for a time being cease to be holy.

00:28:15.560 This is self-evident.

00:28:17.240 Whenever he sins, he must be condemned.

00:28:19.860 He must incur the penalty of the law of God.

00:28:23.660 This is the kind of preaching that puts condemnation on people.

00:28:27.280 well, I'm going to start sounding like a softy.

00:28:29.300 Well, it's just theologically confused.

00:28:30.980 It is.

00:28:31.560 It doesn't understand the distinction

00:28:33.200 between justification and sanctification.

00:28:35.580 Right.

00:28:35.840 So when a person sins, you are under the law again.

00:28:38.540 You've been put back under the law because of your choices.

00:28:42.380 It's just sinless perfectionism in this inchoate form.

00:28:47.180 It's just not fully grown yet.

00:28:48.020 And so what ends up happening a lot,

00:28:49.620 and I think this has to do a lot with soteriology

00:28:51.840 or this theology of salvation,

00:28:54.100 is that you end up having the Calvinists,

00:28:58.060 which again, like you said, with formalism,

00:29:00.780 seem kind of stodgy, you know,

00:29:03.200 like kind of dense and too rigid.

00:29:05.820 And so trying to correct it the other way

00:29:08.640 with a more semi-Pelagian,

00:29:11.500 Arminian sort of freedom in Christ

00:29:14.540 ends up bringing you under condemnation.

00:29:17.620 And it's actually a crushing weight.

00:29:20.780 Yeah, it really is.

00:29:21.520 One of the things I think that we're talking about too,

00:29:24.100 um, is a faith that is conversionistic. So one of the best articles that I read on this was from

00:29:29.600 Peter Lightheart and he was talking about movies and he was talking about why Protestants can't 0.99

00:29:33.520 make good movies. And so he said, like, if you look at the great films, it's always, you know, 0.96

00:29:37.540 Roman Catholics or Jews, you've got Scorsese and you've got people like this because they

00:29:41.900 understand plot, narrative, climax, conflict, all that tension. And then of course, resolution. 0.99

00:29:47.780 But he said that one of the problems you see in American, like, you know, Protestant Christian

00:29:52.160 films is a conversionistic view of life so like the classic example is facing the giants where 0.59

00:29:59.020 it's like everything was bad my life is horrible our football team doesn't lose i i pray one

00:30:04.860 morning have this amazing emotional experience i know jesus now we win state titles my my barren

00:30:10.220 wife gets pregnant like every other second now every other second she's getting just boom everything's

00:30:15.140 great and and what peter was talking about in that article was like what we don't realize is

00:30:20.820 read the story of Job. Job wasn't not saved when he was going through all that. It wasn't because

00:30:26.480 he needed a conversion experience. And so what we're lacking is really a definition of sanctification

00:30:32.080 in the Christian life that is full of immense tension. Yeah. That reminds me, one of the big

00:30:37.860 catalysts during this time was that in order in the 1800s was that you needed to have a radical

00:30:45.140 conversion experience in order to gain church membership. So that was really the driving force

00:30:50.500 behind revivals is that you needed to provide a conversion experience to people.

00:30:57.080 Isn't that crazy, Dan?

00:30:58.780 Because even today, when I became a Christian in the Baptist church, I went and they said,

00:31:04.720 okay, tell us your conversion story.

00:31:05.940 And I was like, well, I was baptized as an infant and I've never not known God and I

00:31:10.360 love him and I love his word and I'll do whatever it says.

00:31:13.060 And they were like, yeah, we're going to need to work on that.

00:31:16.500 Like legit, it was like, that's not good enough.

00:31:18.740 that needs some that needs some editing let's get a script writer in here that's right because

00:31:22.940 literally and and then the guy told me he goes no look he like let me tell you a conversion story

00:31:27.160 like and then he'd tell me his and it's like i tried to story stinks i tried i tried to commit

00:31:32.520 suicide and like the bullet didn't go off and you know like it's got to be something like that

00:31:36.900 those by the way when i'm doing member interviews i mean praise god that he saves people from

00:31:42.060 crack cocaine and heroin and right uh you know abortions and all that but my favorites are like

00:31:48.360 when i'm sitting down with the older couple and they're like oh yeah we've been christians our

00:31:51.480 whole life and i don't remember a time where i ever questioned it wow yeah yeah i've heard i've

00:31:56.640 heard the the metaphor the illustration that for some people their their conversion is like

00:32:01.780 the light coming on and every it was dark and there are there are men and women in our church

00:32:07.780 and membership interviews that have had that conversion experience and praise the lord for

00:32:12.320 that it's like saul of tarsus yes you know all of a sudden jesus punches him in the face knocks

00:32:16.700 him off his horse, blinds him and says, you're a Christian now. Totally. You know, but Calvinism 0.82

00:32:21.280 is a true guy. Yeah. Calvinism is true though. Right. He showed because he raised his hand

00:32:26.720 and prayed the prayer. No. And then some people it's like they, their conversion,

00:32:33.380 it happened at some point they were born again, but it's like their conversion as they think back

00:32:39.640 on it is more like at some point I realized that the sun was up in the sky, but I couldn't tell

00:32:44.880 you the moment that it came over the horizon. And that's what, that's what we're all praying.

00:32:48.800 Our, our sons and daughters say, it's like, no, I'm a Christian. I always believe this from my

00:32:55.620 mother's breast, like Psalm 22 from my mother's breast. I was taught, I learned faith, right?

00:33:01.400 Like that's what we want. Right. And basically conversionism, decisionism, revivalism, it

00:33:08.620 pedals in it pedals in an uncertainty about your standing before God because it anchors your

00:33:17.580 standing before God on your work and your response emotionally in that moment or in that you see so

00:33:25.860 you hear you see people all the time or you hear him saying like it's been a dry season yeah and

00:33:31.300 that's true sometimes it is a hard like you have a kid you're you know I hear that the the last

00:33:36.080 trimester of pregnancy can be difficult on a family. It's like, you know, people are tired

00:33:40.100 and emotions can be high. And yeah, oh, I wasn't experiencing the rapturous delight of my union

00:33:46.660 with Christ moment to moment. But we should be giving people, and the next Christendom will

00:33:51.920 require us to give people a thick understanding of their union with Christ and the covenantal

00:33:58.000 work of Christ in salvation and in building his church so that people, when they have that rough

00:34:03.100 season year months whatever bad quiet time bad quiet time that they don't think they need to

00:34:08.920 get saved again yes they don't need they're not like oh i need another revival i need to rededicate

00:34:14.600 my life to christ get baptized for the fourth time i'm not sure if i've been baptized enough

00:34:18.780 i don't know if it would really counted yeah it might not have counted i i want to ask you guys

00:34:22.760 a question that comes to mind is as we're talking about all this stuff um you know compare it to

00:34:27.720 big fast and famous compare it to life in the church today i think a lot of the things people

00:34:31.560 will hear this and they'll go, okay, yeah, I can actually see a lot of those elements still very

00:34:35.880 present in the church today. But I guess unpack for me what the long-term, like if you look at

00:34:43.500 like 2000 to like 1970, some of the revivalism and the stuff that's been left over, what's kind

00:34:51.440 of been some of the bad fruit that you've seen culturally from that? Yeah. Like what today is

00:34:57.420 an effect that has is fruit on the end of the branch of 200 years of revivalism, right? 200

00:35:04.120 years of decisionism, 200 years of revivalism. What fruit has that born? And man, Eric, one of

00:35:11.000 the things that comes to mind when you say that is a particular way of thinking about missions

00:35:16.340 in a very glamorous, um, Hollywood, big effects, huge things happening, short-term missions,

00:35:27.080 that changed my life. I go to Haiti, bunch of little kids get saved. We, you know, we, we come

00:35:32.520 in, we save the village, we build their church, we paint it for the 37th time. I mean, for the

00:35:36.580 very first time, you know, and just just glorious things happen. And at the same time at home,

00:35:43.880 the Christians at home, the church that sent those 17 year olds or college students or whatever on

00:35:49.940 this mission are, that church is not committed at all to Christian education. They're just sending 0.91

00:35:55.380 their kids to public school. Basically, instead of thinking about the mission of God and the

00:36:04.860 mission of God as it relates to their life as a long, slow discipleship of somebody who is

00:36:11.020 fundamentally a citizen of the kingdom of God, they're thinking about it in terms of, I want to

00:36:16.240 be converted and then I'll go to heaven. And so they end up not being too concerned about all of

00:36:22.400 this, you know, like actually building Christian culture in their house, but they think grandiose

00:36:29.360 thoughts about converting people in the third world. Does that make sense? Yeah, totally. I mean,

00:36:34.980 I was having this conversation with a friend the other day, another pastor, and we were talking

00:36:39.260 about how, you know, again, John Piper, he was a very influential force, but like I read, don't

00:36:44.580 waste your life. And it was, it was all about that. And plus like his book on missions, I remember

00:36:50.180 him saying things like go send or disobey, basically making it seem like the only reason

00:36:54.280 that you even make money as a businessman is to give to missions. Right. Like, and then you would

00:36:59.320 look at the same situations. And again, we're losing our children at pretty high rates within

00:37:05.060 the church. We're not even ministering to our family, which is the most important biblical

00:37:09.700 thing we could be doing. Yeah. To me, it's like fundamentally, instead of viewing the church as

00:37:15.900 a matter of the mission of God, the Missio Dei, as a matter of discipling the nations like Christ

00:37:22.680 gave us. That was his task. Go make disciples of the nations. Every other part of that verse

00:37:28.520 is modifying grammatically that instruction. Go disciple the nations, and then it explains how you

00:37:34.500 do that, baptizing them, teaching them to obey all that I've commanded, for lo, I'm with you.

00:37:39.180 I think decisionism and conversionism, 200 years of this ideology, has taught us to see the mission

00:37:44.860 of God as converting sinners, not converting and discipling sinners. Right. So, so the way easier. 0.66

00:37:52.500 It's way easier. Yeah. Cause if it's just, if I just getting them to make a decision.

00:37:56.860 Yeah. To assent to a proposition. There's tons of stuff I can do, but think about how much harder

00:38:02.320 it is when you say, no, we're actually now we've just started. We've just started once they've,

00:38:08.100 they're converted. Now we're going to teach them to obey all that Christ commanded.

00:38:12.620 Yeah.

00:38:12.720 And I know we'll probably talk about what this looks like positively.

00:38:16.000 Yeah.

00:38:16.200 Next, next, next week.

00:38:17.380 Yeah.

00:38:17.680 But just to give you a little taste. 0.80

00:38:19.400 So the Missio day applied essentially at home and with missions is colonization. 0.66

00:38:25.180 That's right. 0.99

00:38:26.000 You're colonizing where you go.

00:38:27.460 Which takes a long time.

00:38:28.400 Yeah.

00:38:28.580 So I even had a missionary that I had spoken to who was in Eastern Europe and I asked him

00:38:34.220 the question, like, what is your plans for the next 50 years?

00:38:37.040 And he kind of laughed and he's like, I'll see if I'm going to stick around for the next

00:38:39.920 six, eight months.

00:38:40.860 That's a good question.

00:38:41.640 nonsense to him. Yeah. And I was like, well, do you want your kids to, to be like citizens there?

00:38:47.140 Do you want them to know the language? Are you going to plant your flag there and say, no, this

00:38:51.600 is, this is where we plant our flag. This is our identity. This is where we are. We are going to

00:38:56.760 disciple this nation, this country, you know, and colonize it same way with, with Christian

00:39:03.460 education. You're colonizing your own children. You're saying, this is how we're going to think.

00:39:07.840 This is how we're going to eat. This is how we're going to work. This is how we're going to

00:39:11.620 worship. Every part of life becomes very important when you're trying to accomplish, like you said,

00:39:17.440 the Missio Dei, the mission of God, teaching your children and the peoples to obey all that Christ

00:39:23.240 commanded. It's colonization. And what that means, another way we could put this is that 0.97

00:39:29.480 the culture of decisionism and revivalism will inevitably be a thin culture. It'll be very

00:39:36.500 frothy and fizzy and have a lot of flashing

00:39:38.520 lights attached to it and it will be very

00:39:40.480 but it will be like

00:39:42.060 exciting in the way that a sugar rush is

00:39:44.500 exciting but not the way that

00:39:46.620 like a good steak is nourishing 1.00

00:39:48.780 it's a thin culture 0.94

00:39:50.780 rather than a thick culture

00:39:52.220 because a thick culture

00:39:54.460 and again we're going to get very

00:39:56.480 practical in the next episode on this

00:39:58.160 this is more we're building some theoretical

00:40:00.680 models of what we don't want and what we

00:40:02.580 do want next week we'll get more practical

00:40:04.420 but think you know

00:40:06.500 decisionism, because it makes the main thing, that moment of conversion, it just puts the

00:40:13.860 emphasis, the hook is there. Like we need to get people or because the other side of conversion

00:40:18.720 of revivalism, isn't just converting sinners. It was also about going to villages where there

00:40:22.740 were Christians and stirring them up to have a fresh experience of the spirit. But either way,

00:40:28.800 whether it's stirring up the Christian or converting the lost, it's all about that moment.

00:40:33.660 It's all about the fizz in that moment.

00:40:35.680 Shake up a bottle of Mountain Dew and open the cap.

00:40:39.040 Exciting things will happen, but not for very long, right?

00:40:42.000 And what we're talking about with the kingdom of God, the Missio Dei, 0.83

00:40:44.960 is planting crops, colonizing. 0.92

00:40:48.200 It's going into, whether you're talking about your own family or the foreign nation,

00:40:53.180 your own nation or the foreign nation, you're saying,

00:40:55.460 these people, this is what they think about food.

00:40:59.300 This is what they think about clothing.

00:41:01.060 This is what they think about art.

00:41:02.480 this is what they think about music literature truth goodness and beauty

00:41:06.860 where is that not connected properly to the lordship of christ and how can we make their art

00:41:14.200 music beauty food dancing clothing education bend the knee to christ and what that's going to produce

00:41:22.700 inevitably is a thick culture yeah which is what we're after one of the questions that i have as

00:41:28.820 you were describing that we're, we're, we're talking about this subject. If you don't believe

00:41:33.240 in kind of this revivalistic decisionism, it's going to change your preaching. Right. Um, one

00:41:40.180 of the things, and I, I think, you know, I'm not knocking anybody, but I think that the culture 0.96

00:41:45.240 that we've grown up is so thoroughly revivalistic and Baptistic that even the best of us are prone 0.96

00:41:50.320 to this. So recently, uh, it was today, actually this morning, I was watching shepherd conferences

00:41:55.960 going on. People are sharing clips of Voddie Bauckham and it looks like he's crying and

00:42:01.980 preaching the gospel and just super passionate. I've only seen it with the sound off, you know,

00:42:06.640 scrolling. So I know exactly what you mean, but I don't know what he said. Like super passionate

00:42:09.800 and all the responses are like, this was the most electric cut through my soul moment. And,

00:42:15.260 and I think about my time going to together for the gospel and conferences and, and then you would

00:42:20.160 go back and your pastor's kind of like your dad, where he's just like, here's some things that we

00:42:24.880 need to learn we need to put these into practice and and i hate to put it this way but it's just

00:42:28.900 straight boring and he's talking about my sermons guys it's fine no i am not it's fine no it's fine

00:42:35.480 it's fine but you understand i know you know that's what i want that's what i want to preach

00:42:39.200 like but you know you know what i mean like where where and again i went to southern baptist seminary

00:42:43.620 like it was almost this expectation that you're putting on a show yeah we're making brilliant

00:42:49.920 orators. Yeah. That move people. And I love Vody and I love everybody, you know, most of,

00:42:56.140 I don't know all of them, but most of the speakers, they're great, great preachers of the gospel.

00:43:00.620 But again, what if the expectation for preaching was just solid food? It wasn't like, you know,

00:43:07.020 I remember preaching, I preached for three years at a small church. I think probably on like three

00:43:12.860 occasions, did I ever reach that level of just being so passionate about what I was preaching

00:43:18.180 that, that it was like really, really deeply emotionally stirring for me.

00:43:23.880 Yeah.

00:43:25.000 Most of the time it's like, here's what it says.

00:43:27.140 Here's what we need to do.

00:43:28.020 I love the word.

00:43:28.860 I love God.

00:43:29.840 Yeah.

00:43:30.020 But my, my perspective is this is fundamentally not a performance because we're, we're not

00:43:36.140 doing two things that decisionism and revivalism think are the main two things.

00:43:40.640 Yeah.

00:43:40.800 On the one hand, the preaching of the scriptures to the, to the people of God in the gathered

00:43:45.880 worship is mainly not about converting them.

00:43:48.180 And in fact, if I preach mainly as if I'm trying to convert them,

00:43:51.560 the message they're going to unconsciously absorb

00:43:54.520 is that I don't think they're converted.

00:43:57.180 Yes. 1.00

00:43:57.540 You're not Christians. 1.00

00:43:58.740 You guys need to get saved. 1.00

00:44:00.400 We had this chapel.

00:44:02.600 I remember Paige Patterson preached and he said,

00:44:04.380 I'm going to preach the gospel this morning.

00:44:06.020 And he said, and if you're asking me why,

00:44:07.840 it's because I don't think there's Christians here. 0.69

00:44:10.040 Wow.

00:44:10.400 Yeah.

00:44:10.720 And we were like, wow.

00:44:12.300 I mean, I'm sure there were genuinely unsaved people,

00:44:15.740 but in, in any given gathered worship service. So, I mean, on the one hand we're saying, Hey,

00:44:19.480 you're not converted. I need to convert you. And then the second thing that we tend to preach,

00:44:24.040 like we're trying, like we're trying to hit as a target with our sermons. It is not

00:44:27.680 fundamentally the main emphasis of biblical preaching is that I'm trying to, you know,

00:44:32.980 mainly move your emotions in order to move your will. Yes. Right. Like in that order where I'm

00:44:40.780 trying to stir you up in order to soften up your will which is really obstinate your will's the

00:44:47.360 problem guys so that you'll then go be manipulated into doing what i want because your emotions will

00:44:52.200 then drag you there here's the problem with that decisions made based on your emotions even if

00:44:57.060 those emotions were good are not durable those are not durable things you might go on a winning

00:45:02.980 streak for a minute if you make decisions with your emotions but inevitably you will crash and

00:45:07.380 bird. Here's what I'm trying to do instead. Just, you know, I'm preaching week in and week out at

00:45:11.580 the church here in Ogden. And the main thing I'm trying to do, like you said, Eric is, is tell the

00:45:15.660 people of God, these are Christians. This is what your Lord says to you. This is what he says to

00:45:21.100 you. You're Christians. This is not far from you. This is not far from you. You have the spirit of

00:45:26.840 God. You have new hearts. You can do this. And so, Hey, let's go do this together. Let's go walk in

00:45:33.000 this. And I'm trying to actually move their will first. I'm trying to say, God says to you,

00:45:40.220 X, whether you didn't know that because you needed better instruction, or you didn't know

00:45:44.780 how to obey the text, or you just needed a reminder and you're 50 years into this thing,

00:45:49.720 and you're already doing this, but the scriptures repeat themselves. I'm basically trying to

00:45:54.180 move your will first. And like you said, sometimes I can remember moments where I've

00:46:01.200 been brought to tears while preaching in a way that wasn't effeminate. I think I was, you know,

00:46:05.820 I remember a time thinking about the wickedness of the world and particularly the application that

00:46:11.280 came to mind the moment was like the way that in our world, if someone finds out that their 0.95

00:46:16.540 unborn child has Down syndrome, that their first response is just to kill the baby. And I was just 0.74

00:46:22.760 like, there was a sermon, I was wrecked. And that just brought me to tears in the middle of the

00:46:27.700 sermon. And, but that was once I've been preaching for seven plus years now, or, you know, however

00:46:33.340 long it's been. And those are, those are, we're not opposed to emotions. We're not anti-emotions.

00:46:40.640 God gave us emotions, but in the proper order. Yeah. We're not trying to manufacture that on

00:46:44.840 a weekly basis. That's not success. And we're not making that the basis of, I mean, here's the

00:46:50.280 other thing that I've realized a lot of times is hearing a lot of Presbyterian reform guys preach

00:46:55.780 where it's like Doug Wilson is probably maybe one of the best examples of this where it is amazing

00:47:01.800 content and he's reading a manuscript and it's not like a revivalistic sermon. No, he just wrote a

00:47:07.880 blog post and he's reading it. Well, you know, with preaching one way, this is like, this is

00:47:13.720 like crayon sort of thinking by me, you're welcome. But, but I've heard people say like, uh, you know,

00:47:20.020 it's not a pastor's job to feed the people. You know, it's not a pastor's job to feed the sheep.

00:47:24.300 I'm like, no, no, they're feeding the sheep something no matter what.

00:47:28.700 And in this revivalistic decision, Jesus said, feed my, feed my lambs.

00:47:33.800 Pretty sure.

00:47:34.780 It's literally a verse.

00:47:35.680 Yeah.

00:47:35.940 Yeah.

00:47:36.460 So, so in these, when you're, when you are, like you said, pandering to people or you're

00:47:42.160 just assuming that none of them are Christians.

00:47:44.220 And so you just get that surface level, but it's really exciting. 0.64

00:47:47.180 It's almost like those restaurants that use like fancy foams and like pop rock sprinkles.

00:47:53.040 Oh yeah.

00:47:53.580 like the modern yeah like the modernistic chemical why are you why are you yeah mr should i call you 0.95

00:48:00.880 mr why are you gay that's what i say the chef when it comes out versus a faithful pastor like uh my 0.87

00:48:06.680 pastor brian sauve when he preaches he's like you know what people need to eat they need to eat their 0.98

00:48:11.040 green beans yeah they do so we're gonna sit down and we're all gonna eat green beans together

00:48:15.400 because i know a lot of you need to eat your green beans that's right and green beans they're not

00:48:20.300 exciting, but they have vitamins and minerals that are, I mean, you carry this too far.

00:48:24.220 Cook them in butter. I mean, you know, have a good outline, but it's interesting. So you take

00:48:28.640 the preaching and that impacts the people and then downstream from that. So I want to give one

00:48:32.820 example. Yeah. When I, this is like college, just out of college. So young families, everybody,

00:48:39.100 you know, people who are married, starting a family. I remember a lot of the young ladies

00:48:42.900 would say this, you know, right now, like in our culture, this is hard to fathom, right?

00:48:47.260 presbyterian covenantal culture we're looking at it we're saying like motherhood is glorious

00:48:51.480 but you took these ladies who were you know like street preaching evangelizing single ministry all

00:49:00.100 that and on college and it was exciting and we're going on mission trips and i remember one lady

00:49:05.240 said she was on her second child and she said yeah motherhood is such a disappointment to me

00:49:09.340 because i feel like my christian life is over oh and i remember being like as sad as i've ever been

00:49:15.920 because I said, you are totally missing the point, but what was the reality? Her entire existence,

00:49:24.280 her entire Christian life was based on what kind of experience am I having emotionally?

00:49:29.740 Even every week, it's like, again, big, fast, and famous megachurch is the great,

00:49:35.200 great grandchild of revivalism. Yes. Because it basically says, how can I give you the best

00:49:41.260 worship experience? I mean, that's even the term that they use. Yeah. Week to week.

00:49:45.920 Well, and you have people that are seeking an experience, a personal experience.

00:49:50.660 And we're encouraged to that.

00:49:52.580 Yeah.

00:49:52.920 Like have a personal, it's not a religion.

00:49:55.020 It's a personal relationship with Jesus.

00:49:57.080 And what I was getting to with the food part, bringing it full circle was the exciting experience

00:50:03.780 and the revivalistic approach is individualistic because it's all about your choice and manipulating

00:50:09.640 your will.

00:50:10.480 Whereas in faithful preaching, where you're saying, eat your green beans, you're all

00:50:14.320 eating your green beans together.

00:50:15.520 It's uniting the body because yeast goes through, you know, sin goes through the body like yeast.

00:50:22.280 And so you're stamping out those sins within the body to unite the people together by feeding them the same spiritual food.

00:50:28.940 And then you say, okay, and let's go to the table together and be knit together and be made by the same stuff, which is the body and the blood of Christ.

00:50:38.400 And so it's very united.

00:50:40.880 It's covenantal.

00:50:42.260 Yeah, it's covenantal.

00:50:43.520 And it, this, this reminds, you know, one thing that I think you start to realize when you look at revivalism, decisionism, big, fast, and famous is that a lot of it fundamentally is what can boil down to the worship of adolescence, the worship of youth and the experiences.

00:50:58.900 think about the experiences of youth. They're like an obsession with appearance, emotional

00:51:04.120 instability. They're still learning self-mastery when you're 17 to 25, preoccupation with romantic

00:51:10.320 love, pushing boundaries, testing the wisdom of your elders, obsession with self-discovery,

00:51:17.540 immaturity, self-exploration with personal transformation. Your emotions are marked by

00:51:23.760 higher highs and lower lows than when you're 30, 40, 50. And so there's a book actually about this.

00:51:29.940 It's called The Juvenilization of American Christianity by an author named Thomas Bergler.

00:51:35.680 And he pointed out that a lot of these errors in the modern church stem from, he pointed to the

00:51:41.400 movements from the 1930s and 1940s. And I think that he would probably agree that those stem

00:51:48.540 back to what we're talking about the revivalism but these juvenile traits in the church he describes

00:51:55.180 the juvenileization of the church as quote the process by which the religious beliefs practices

00:51:59.140 and developmental characteristics of adolescence become accepted as appropriate for christians

00:52:05.580 of all ages interesting so i think he's correct in that assessment that a lot of what marks the

00:52:11.460 culture of revivalism are the characteristics of youthful immaturity, uh, over things like stable

00:52:18.620 seasoned maturity, where we're all aiming for mature manhood and womanhood. And instead the

00:52:23.760 whole church starts to get marked by this, like, you know, cause what is a highly emotional

00:52:28.500 experience, but a junior high girl? I mean, that's the day in the life of a junior high girl. You

00:52:32.940 got, what do you guys think about that? Do you think he's onto something there? You know,

00:52:35.600 what's really interesting. I hadn't really considered that before because I had, I just

00:52:39.020 always pointed to the to the feminization of the church yeah but you're right having a more

00:52:43.520 juvenile atmosphere and i can't remember who it was that told me that was it the grandpa rule

00:52:49.380 do you remember that's my rule yeah that's yeah that was you the grandpa rule what is the grandpa

00:52:55.220 the grandpa rule is a rule about it could be applied to sermons to or the names of whatever

00:53:00.940 but the grandpa rule is specifically a rule that i i came up with as a worship leader in choosing

00:53:06.780 which songs to sing and the rule was if i can't picture my grandpa singing it really zealously

00:53:11.980 i will not do that song so can i picture my grand my grandpa's name was don

00:53:16.560 he don had gravitas yeah he smoked a couple packs a day died in his 70s of lung cancer

00:53:21.580 and uh he was a trucker that was i mean that's pretty good he had a good smoking if i thought

00:53:26.780 he made it past the average age of a male in the in america so i mean yeah he was you know classic

00:53:32.260 like 20 acres in Montana piles of rusty cars everywhere that he one day

00:53:37.140 intended to do a bunch of stuff with living my best life.

00:53:39.500 Just a taciturn old guy.

00:53:41.120 And I can picture grandpa Don singing like what,

00:53:46.360 what's the song like amazing grace.

00:53:48.320 I know that my redeemer lives glory.

00:53:53.820 Hallelujah.

00:53:55.260 But I cannot picture my grandpa singing.

00:53:58.220 Get ready.

00:53:59.820 Out upon the water.

00:54:02.260 but feet may fail in ocean or like uh what what's the one about wreck

00:54:11.200 it's like right oh the never and they always mispronounce the words like hipsters 0.98

00:54:17.400 overwhelming reckless love of god should i call you mister why are you gay you knew that i was 0.59

00:54:26.800 just waiting but it's not just the music it's not just everything it's everything can i picture 0.96

00:54:30.860 my grandpa walking in and taking serious spiritual and life advice from a faux hawked skinny lady

00:54:39.100 pants wearing guy who looks like he's trying to be 17 when he's like 42 my grandfather oh i've

00:54:47.440 never thought about this i've never tried to picture this my grandpa would walk in he would

00:54:51.940 get the look of clint eastwood in that one gif where he's just like by the way that's like dan's

00:54:58.300 permanent resting face resting Clint Eastwood face Clint Eastwood Gran Torino on the porch

00:55:02.940 growling yes and my grandpa would would leave like he would he would leave my grandpa didn't

00:55:08.620 call things gay but he he would just leave whatever the greatest generation version of

00:55:13.140 calling these gay is he would have done but it's interesting because of there's another book I read

00:55:16.920 this a while ago it's called the death of the grown-up I believe the author is Diana West 1.00

00:55:21.200 but really same premise right since you know and they talk about things like you know there was a

00:55:27.240 time when like to go to a concert was like frank sinatra yeah it was a very adult experience and

00:55:32.780 then you know later it's going to see i don't know dan have you ever seen anybody like right

00:55:37.800 now you'd cringe at that you went to see in concert i didn't really go to concerts i don't

00:55:43.040 you go to backstreet boys or something he did dan i've seen a supertones concert i saw the news

00:55:51.400 boys i would cringe now yeah that was my first my first concert was phillips craig and dean

00:55:57.460 acapella group all right so yeah dan has a lower back tattoo of backstreet boys oh no i can neither

00:56:04.600 confirm nor deny i thought you'd deny it he's got the tramp stamp it's the frosty tips of the one

00:56:11.300 dude yeah isn't that guy's name brian uh never mind i don't know let's move on let's move on

00:56:16.300 I'm just revealing that I know too much about Backstreet's back.

00:56:19.100 All right.

00:56:20.080 Oh, my.

00:56:21.000 We can cut all this out.

00:56:22.880 We can.

00:56:23.580 Oh, dang it.

00:56:24.800 And it's true.

00:56:25.800 We deserve that.

00:56:26.920 Yes.

00:56:27.440 We deserve that.

00:56:28.060 But I do want to say this.

00:56:29.780 I was having this conversation a couple of years ago with one of my buddies.

00:56:33.740 You know, and you guys all understand this.

00:56:35.640 as you get older and you have kids and you have property, you know, what we do together as a

00:56:43.300 family is like, you know, we have dinner together. We smoke a brisket with, you know, play on the

00:56:49.200 back 40 feet. Um, that's right. The back 40 feet, you know, that's what we can afford in today's

00:56:54.500 world so far. Uh, but, but it's interesting. Um, there was this whole culture when I was in

00:56:59.020 seminary and CJ Mahaney was big about this every week, man, you need to be dating your wife. You 0.99

00:57:03.620 need to go oh yeah you need to go back to the time period in your in your relationship when

00:57:07.700 you were dating and my friend jonathan he told me this he goes i don't want to go back to that

00:57:12.900 time period i was i was an emotional wreck i was like does she like me does she not

00:57:17.260 constantly sexually frustrated let's be honest yes always and now so okay married 20 years in

00:57:23.760 almost yeah i'm at the point now where i'm like i would never in a million years want to go back

00:57:28.340 to when i was dating my wife absolutely not or even just like think about all the the good this

00:57:32.800 just thick culture, thin culture thing. Thin culture is like the fizz of romance. Thick

00:57:37.200 culture is like, no, you don't realize my wife has 11 years of marriage under her belt. Now 1.00

00:57:41.900 her cooking is a hundred times better than it was the first week of, she was vegan for

00:57:47.220 a minute. Like she's repented. She cooks me some glories now. And this is just one little

00:57:53.120 snapshot of maturity. Again, the fetishization of youth, of emotions, immaturity, immaturity.

00:58:02.620 Another aspect of that, by the way, that I thought was very insightful in, and I think it was in that book by Burglar about the juvenileization of the church. He talks about the connection between this style of church culture and activism.

00:58:19.620 Interesting. So, so what happens in the church is that from the, from the 19th century into the 20th century, you have huge movements that begin to shift towards the gospel of social issues. So the gospel of temperance, the gospel and temperance, the gospel and pacifism, the gospel and fill in the blank. And, and what it is, is it's youth culture.

00:58:39.700 again, young people who are questioning the youth that's been handed or questioning the wisdom

00:58:44.480 that's been handed down to them, the traditions of the ages. Whereas in the past, like in the

00:58:50.540 classical, in the classical world, children were not thought of very highly. Actually,

00:58:55.940 they were in another ditch. Like they thought children weren't really persons yet. And so

00:59:00.180 they didn't fetishize youth the same way we do. Neither seen nor heard. Yeah. Yeah. Like Spartacans,

00:59:05.440 you know they're spartans not spartacans this is the doc holiday oh i'm sorry you may go i forgot 0.86

00:59:13.060 you were there yeah they're like uh when they turn seven send them to be tortured for several

00:59:18.820 years to become men and probably better than what we do but you know they they didn't care about

00:59:24.760 children at all they didn't respect or revere children we've gone the other way where we

00:59:28.260 basically want we want to make children into our political heroes and we want to make you know we

00:59:32.900 fetishized youth and it's led to the church being married to activism where instead of viewing

00:59:39.220 the missio day again as the long-term colonization of the world discipling the nations so that there

00:59:45.320 is genuine transformation we're not talking about any kind of like just between your ears christianity

00:59:50.200 where we want to respond to emotionalism with just mere intellectualism no no we're talking

00:59:55.320 about transformation real evangelism real missions right real change over the years

01:00:01.800 plotting change, taking ground slowly and keeping it. And what they want, what revivalism wants is

01:00:08.840 a culture of Christian activism. It's like a grass fire. Yeah. It's a grass fire. It's let's 0.58

01:00:13.780 go, let's go BLM on this town. Let's go. And I even, you know, one of my, my wife's best friends 1.00

01:00:19.920 growing up, she ended up marrying a guy. I played music for their wedding, good friends. And then

01:00:25.560 he went super liberal, fully liberal. I actually watched part of a sermon that he preached at his

01:00:30.760 gay affirming, you know, trans denominational church, which I think is what they call it.

01:00:35.280 And, um, it opened with a clip of the blues clues guy, you know, the, you know, where he's like,

01:00:41.760 and look at it, look at all you've accomplished. Exactly. And they actually are, they literally

01:00:47.240 are. Yeah. And it went through all of the whole sermon. I couldn't find a Bible verse. Um, but

01:00:53.960 his, his title at the church is something like the pastor of justice. No. Yeah. A hundred percent.

01:00:59.480 I'm not making this up.

01:01:00.620 I mean,

01:01:00.840 that's,

01:01:01.200 that's kind of a cool title,

01:01:02.600 but not how they apply it.

01:01:04.220 Like if it was biblical justice,

01:01:05.660 absolutely.

01:01:06.320 If you were like the guy in the church,

01:01:07.540 you're the hammer.

01:01:08.940 Yeah.

01:01:09.220 And here's the other thing though.

01:01:10.520 Let's actually just,

01:01:11.680 that's probably the civil magistrates.

01:01:14.140 He's probably the minister.

01:01:15.460 Well,

01:01:15.500 yeah,

01:01:15.740 yeah,

01:01:15.980 yeah.

01:01:16.140 I'm just playing.

01:01:17.120 I know.

01:01:17.540 But think about,

01:01:18.720 think about this,

01:01:19.460 like Ligon Duncan a couple of years ago,

01:01:22.040 he comes out and he's like,

01:01:23.800 why do we need to support,

01:01:25.200 you know,

01:01:26.060 a lot of the social movements going on today?

01:01:27.980 and so this is a guy at the like one of the flagship pca supposedly reformed covenantal

01:01:34.060 church venerable older guy a lot of years in the faith kind of guy that you'd want to look up to

01:01:38.460 and say you know help us as the next generation walk in and lick duncan it kind of ties together

01:01:42.960 everything we've been talking about but he says now listen and i'm and i'm obviously paraphrasing

01:01:47.900 but he said now listen he said if we don't take up these social issues the blm the racial

01:01:52.600 reconciliation, we're going to lose our kids because they care about these issues instead

01:01:58.580 of discipling them to understand justice and goodness and truth and beauty and the mission

01:02:03.580 of God. Yeah. So, and then, and then the whole thing is to like come out, you know, in his case

01:02:08.320 and apologize. But, but I think, um, there's a really fantastic book. Um, I've reviewed it on

01:02:13.900 the hard men podcast. I would encourage people to check it out, but it's by John Harris and it's,

01:02:18.440 The Social Gospel and something or other.

01:02:21.080 Something or other.

01:02:22.000 We can provide links.

01:02:23.160 Yeah, John Harris.

01:02:23.880 But a phenomenal book.

01:02:24.920 And what he says is he shows in the book,

01:02:26.640 he gives examples of how like J.D. Greer

01:02:28.380 and other people within evangelicalism,

01:02:30.820 they have actually changed the gospel

01:02:32.620 so that they'll say,

01:02:33.620 if you're not preaching the social gospel,

01:02:36.200 it's not the full gospel.

01:02:37.720 And what they're doing is they're conflating

01:02:40.260 revivalistic activism

01:02:42.500 with biblical transformationalism.

01:02:45.600 And those are not the same things.

01:02:47.700 Yeah, not the same.

01:02:48.440 So I have one last question line of reasoning.

01:02:52.080 I want to go down to end the episode.

01:02:53.620 And so this is kind of a last call before that.

01:02:55.540 You guys have anything you want to,

01:02:56.960 you think that we need to talk about

01:02:58.780 before we start landing the plane here?

01:03:00.220 Cause we're over 60 minutes.

01:03:01.480 I do.

01:03:02.240 Okay.

01:03:03.320 Pete monster.

01:03:04.340 Oh, Pete.

01:03:04.840 Oh yeah.

01:03:05.280 What are we drinking?

01:03:06.500 Compass box, Pete monster.

01:03:08.160 It's a, it's a, not a single malt.

01:03:11.120 It's a blended scotch.

01:03:12.260 It was very expensive and I would not recommend it,

01:03:15.580 but it actually tastes pretty good.

01:03:16.800 good. It's probably better if you didn't pay for it. Right. But I did pay for it. I didn't pay for

01:03:21.320 it. I like it quite a bit. Yeah, I do too. Was that seriously what you were? Yeah, that was it.

01:03:25.240 Oh, okay. I want to hear what your question is. Sure. And, and we'll, so my question to frame it

01:03:31.580 is that the last, you know, this is sort of bridging us into next week too, because people

01:03:36.740 probably like, okay, this is nice and theoretical, but I'm a dad or I'm a, you know, I'm a guy.

01:03:40.540 And I would say one thing we need to do is to recognize the fruit of revivalistic discipleship

01:03:48.720 in our own practical lives. Eric, I thought what you said was really insightful that most of us

01:03:53.780 probably underestimate how much we've been discipled by this. So I'm thinking about like

01:03:58.820 one of the things that we would be remiss to mention before moving on in an episode like this

01:04:04.740 is, is that revivalistic tendencies aren't just a matter of how you do church, but, but how you

01:04:10.980 function as a dad. If you're a revivalistic dad, it means you treat your children like they're

01:04:17.820 continual audience members at a revival service. Well, yeah, I was going to say even, even like

01:04:26.460 the Paul Tripp, Ted Tripp, and then later, at least Fitzpatrick with give them grace. She's, 0.53

01:04:31.840 you know the law gospel distinction is huge she's basically like an old school lutheran

01:04:36.360 yeah but um it's it's interesting because it basically it's parenting for conversion

01:04:40.960 right you're you're parenting for this so it's like you know you got to spank your kid because

01:04:46.140 he he hit his his brother whatever and they're like basically you have to have this elaborate

01:04:50.740 conversation every time to bring them to a point where they're like i am a sinner i repent i know

01:04:56.920 like two nights ago, I was spanking one of my kids, like metaphorically CDC or whatever you

01:05:02.800 are. I can't remember if she's CPS, metaphorically spanking them. And with love, I was giving them

01:05:08.520 a popsicle. You know, that was what I was doing. That's how I discipline my children. I just give

01:05:12.940 them ice cream and candy whenever they do something wrong. Okay. So you had the spoon.

01:05:15.720 So I had the spoon and I just went, you know, Hey, you disrespected mom right there. This is 0.98

01:05:23.440 how you did it yeah i did that okay well i'm disciplining you because i love you and um we

01:05:29.060 need to go say sorry to mom and get back in fellowship that's it that was it that was the

01:05:32.720 whole conversation i didn't say your wicked heart led you to this disrespect it was just the outflow

01:05:39.720 of your wicked heart and in the gospel of john chapter three you know i didn't give him like an

01:05:45.940 altar can you imagine though like as an adult like if say you're in the workplace with a christian

01:05:49.820 brother. You guys work together, but say Dan comes to you and is like, you know, you say to Dan,

01:05:54.640 you know, I'm really sorry, Dan, please forgive me. And Dan's like, no, let's go through this,

01:05:58.040 Brian. Why did you do this? Because of your wicked envious heart. Do you feel the weight

01:06:04.420 of what you have done? Yeah. I think that's really good. It's a positional understanding

01:06:08.840 of where your kids are. Just like we talked about in the church is that when you approach your kids,

01:06:14.420 this is one thing that I've, my kids are all little. I have four boys, four and under now,

01:06:18.520 and I'm very sleep deprived, but at night when I do bedtime, my kids are having a hard time with

01:06:24.520 the catechism, you know, because the words are kind of big and they're like, they're young.

01:06:28.940 I asked them the question and they're like, broccoli, broccoli, broccoli. And I'm like,

01:06:32.120 you know what this we'll just, we'll try again tomorrow. Maybe you'll, you think that's funny

01:06:36.320 anyway, but I'll ask the boys, are we Christians? And they'll say, yes, that's right. Yes. We're

01:06:41.900 Christians. Like who do we worship? We worship the Lord. And so I'd approach them because they're

01:06:47.880 christians they are they are christians and they need to repent yeah and they need to do the

01:06:53.020 ordinary things be discipled they are rough they are rough but i would even say your marriage

01:06:59.120 so like one of the things that man i've had to actually repent to my wife of this but like

01:07:04.340 early in marriage because of this baptist culture like if if if one of us would you know go through

01:07:11.000 a rough stretch you know i'd say to my wife i'm just not sure you're saved what oh yes it's 1.00

01:07:16.880 horrible i'm so sorry jerry that you i have to go through this i have literally repented of this

01:07:21.420 to her like i'm so sorry but i'm telling you that was the culture that we were reared in

01:07:25.700 yeah i now i wouldn't even think to say that yeah just just think you guys seriously think

01:07:32.220 about how deeply revivalism has affected how we think about christian faithfulness in every area

01:07:38.480 of our life it is like maybe you saw the title list and you were like oh okay decisionism revival

01:07:44.300 I've heard about that before, but I think so often we leave it there at the church level of like

01:07:48.920 preaching and the methodology of the church and how we preach to sinners and missions. But what

01:07:54.840 we're talking about here is a fundamental instinct towards emotional manipulation as the main tool of

01:08:00.920 change. Yes. That's sub-Christian. That's not Christian. Could be interpersonal relationship.

01:08:05.760 Yes. And as a view of the covenantal relationship of the Christian to Christ as in or out based on

01:08:12.040 their emotional experience from moment to moment, but still at the same time, somehow we want to

01:08:16.600 say, but they prayed the prayer. So they have an existential angst at all time and a false security

01:08:21.320 at the same time. It's like the worst possible combination. It's horrible. And the terrifying

01:08:25.760 part is they might not actually be a Christian. They might not. This does not produce Christians 0.99

01:08:30.020 consistently. No, it doesn't. This methodology tends to produce really hardened apostates who 0.99

01:08:38.080 just, they flee the church because they realize they can't measure up to what is being asked of

01:08:42.480 them. Cause it's not like, this is the thing guys. I know that a lot of us have been conditioned by

01:08:47.240 the way that, that gospel centrality has taught us to view the law and the gospel to say like

01:08:51.320 the law for Christians, literally impossible. I'm sorry, guys. There's really only one

01:08:57.540 application of the law and that's Christ did it. That's right. It's Hey, don't, don't the anger of

01:09:02.820 man doesn't produce the righteousness that God requires. Jesus was never sinfully angry. That

01:09:07.600 righteous record was credited to you therefore trust in christ and never moving on into and

01:09:12.560 actually though stop being sinfully angry it's like we've been taught this gospel centered in

01:09:18.980 a thin gospel way not a thick gospel way um law gospel mistake that teaches us to actually instead

01:09:26.140 of saying what the scriptures say about the law which is to the people of god the scriptures say

01:09:30.640 things like this these things are not far from you you can't do them god is like actually even

01:09:36.620 think about God's in, in Matthew, when Jesus is talking about Moses, giving them the divorce

01:09:43.120 clause. And he says he did it because of their hardness of heart. Like that's how patient and

01:09:47.640 kind God is that he even knew this is, he knew that they were sinners. And so he gave them a way

01:09:52.900 to minimize human suffering with this divorce clause there in the old Testament. It's like

01:09:57.140 for the Christian, when we're, when we're in discipling relationships, like a father to a son

01:10:03.280 or, you know, husband to his wife, pastor to his flock, we ought to be telling one another,

01:10:09.780 exhorting one another daily, brother, sister, son, daughter, you can do it. The Lord is with you.

01:10:17.880 You do not have to be a slave to sinful anger, lust, pornography today, and not in a triumphalistic

01:10:25.240 emotionalism, not in like a, if I declare over you, not in an, if you sin, it doesn't, it means

01:10:31.700 you're not a Christian way, but in a way that when we sin, we're teaching our people how to

01:10:35.760 respond to it. They say, oh, I go to the cross for mercy and help in my time of need, the throne of

01:10:39.940 grace. And then I stand back up and I keep pursuing Christ. And I keep walking in faithfulness to the

01:10:45.800 boring, mundane, normal duties that are actually glorious that God has given me. And revivalism,

01:10:52.000 when you fall, it wants you to say, do this deep emotional introspection and maybe get saved again

01:10:58.100 and maybe get baptized again and you know maybe rededicate or walk an aisle it's just we need to

01:11:04.500 not underestimate the the degree to which this is um affected us so i hope that you guys have come to

01:11:11.120 hate through both of these topics big fast and famous and decision and decisionism and revivalism

01:11:17.680 they're related i've hope you've come to to hate and reject emotionally manipulative shallow strip

01:11:25.080 mall, decisionistic revivalism and mega churchianity. I hope you hate it with perfect

01:11:30.920 hatred. Next episode, we're going to talk about how we can do that, how we can hate it with perfect

01:11:35.840 hatred practically and walk in instead of that, what ought we to walk in as Christians? What are 0.79

01:11:41.960 we building in this? What are the next bricks in the cathedral of Christendom now that we've

01:11:46.620 cleared that strip mall out of the way? So in the meantime, Fest and Alente make haste slowly

01:11:52.940 and we will see you in the next episode of The King's Hall.

01:12:00.900 Well, in case you didn't know,

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01:12:07.440 We have a great time in The After Hours.

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The King's Hall - March 18, 2022

Revivalism & Decisionism

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