00:08:54.860Well, because one of the great strengths of the First Christendom
00:08:58.060is also one of the focal centers of weakness in our own day.
00:09:02.380One place they stood strong happens to be precisely the point of attack in our modern day.
00:09:07.640A place not only of attack, but of successful attack.
00:09:10.880A place not only of successful attack, but what can only be described as total conquest.
00:09:15.960The first Christendom, obeying the Lord and his teaching in scripture with near universal consistency,
00:09:22.440affirmed a patriarchal vision for society.
00:09:25.080Father rule in the home, the church, and the commonwealth.
00:09:28.160We, on the other hand, have given way before wave after wave of feminist attack on the same,
00:09:34.020ultimately allowing our homes, churches, and commonwealths to be overrun with loud and brash
00:09:38.820women. We have allowed whole denominations to fall into ruin, trading the hard-fought inheritance
00:09:44.140of previous generations away for a seat at the plastic table of cultural influence,
00:09:48.920only to find that the pagans hate us anyway, no matter what we give them. We've lost the
00:09:54.280godly rule of fathers. A loss attended by devastating cultural costs. This we must
00:10:00.760reverse. The church must reclaim the ground which was ceded to feminism and its ruinous consequences.
00:10:07.660Collapsing birth rates, rampant promiscuity, child sacrifice through abortion on a Stalin-esque
00:10:12.720scale, the ruin of homes and attendant destruction of children, the dismantling of marriage as an
00:10:17.960institution, and more. On this issue, there can be no peace, no ceasefire, no slackening,
00:10:24.500no quarter given. This is not ground we can afford to cede to the enemy in the name of
00:10:29.340coalitions and greater causes. Because to cede this ground would be to give way at precisely
00:10:35.060that point in the wall where the enemy's attack rages with singular fury. So join us in this
00:10:40.640episode of the King's Hall as we consider the cultural cost of losing father rule and how to
00:10:45.520recover it. The King's Hall Podcast exists to make self-ruled men who rule well and win the world.
00:11:15.520Our communities are strengthened and faithful businesses thrive.
00:11:18.720So if you're a Christian business owner who wants to reach thousands of like-minded people and grow your company, we'd love to partner with you.
00:11:25.140Email us at advertising at newchristendompress.com.
00:11:34.760Well, gentlemen, welcome to this episode of the King's Hall Podcast.
00:11:38.440I'm one of your hosts, Eric Kahn, joined today by the Viking, perhaps the Norman, Daniel
00:14:46.640That sounds narcissistic because we were all one of them.
00:14:49.040But, you know, you guys judge on us, but great speakers as well that we were able to come.
00:14:54.500And we did that in our church last year, and that really limited us on space.
00:14:59.660We had a max cap of if we get 400 people in that room, it's pretty much standing room only.
00:15:05.980This year, we were able to secure a great venue just walking distance actually up the street, a historic building in our city on the foothills of the East Bench.
00:15:15.640beautiful brick building. And we have over a thousand seats that are available in this venue.
00:15:21.560And hundreds of you have already signed up, but we've got lots of room and we've heard from some
00:15:27.340folks, you know, at the conferences came up, man, I'd love to come, but I can't afford a ticket or
00:15:32.620I can't, you know, I can't do this. So we just wanted to say, we want you there. It's the most
00:15:37.260accessible conference we've ever done to families. And we want you there. If money's an issue on the
00:15:41.800ticket price. I can't pay for your Airbnb guys. I'm sorry. Dan can't pay for your Airbnb. Eric
00:15:47.560certainly can't pay for it. Actually, if you saw all of our vehicles, I would be the one you'd be
00:15:54.080saying like, come on. So, but we can help you out. If you want to come and the ticket price is an
00:16:01.300issue, email Cassie, C-A-S-S-I-E at newchristendompress.com. And we would love to just
00:16:08.440talk and do our best to accommodate you. And we'd love to make that happen. To me, I would love to
00:16:13.360see as many people as possible show up. We're building real practical, building Christian
00:16:19.380boroughs, applying these principles. And it's just going to be a great, encouraging time.
00:16:24.900Yeah. And I would say, especially we met, there was a lot of single ladies at Joel's conference.
00:16:29.500Yeah. So encouraging those ladies to come as well. $1, I think for the singles mixer,
00:20:36.520And obviously it goes on and there's more details about the husband's responsibility,
00:20:40.540loving the wives and everything like that.
00:20:42.080it's not just a one-sided thing like, oh, you know, wives just carte blanche, obey your,
00:20:46.800obey your husbands and everything, including sin. But for some reason in evangelicalism,
00:20:53.140in the beginning with first wave feminism, which I know we'll talk about at a later point,
00:20:58.360you see the old temptation of the women's desire to rule over her husband. That was part of the
00:21:05.500curse from Eve, uh, from God to Eve and, and, um, that she would rule over her husband. We see that,
00:21:11.900you know, rearing its ugly head in the 19th century. And then, uh, at every subsequent
00:21:16.980wave, like you mentioned in the cold open, we've ceded ground to that. So, so I think that that's
00:21:23.040really where we are right now, broadly speaking in evangelicalism was just overall confusion as
00:21:29.500to what, what does Ephesians five say? Yeah. And I think particularly like even in the
00:21:34.480conservative church we've obviously given ground on the church right we have lady pastors people
00:21:39.860who said oh i promise i'll never be a lady pastor amy bird beth moore guess what lady pastors now
00:21:45.040um so there's that problem it's certainly a problem in the family but i think the one that
00:21:49.840and and we'll get into this more but i think the one that really ruffles people's feathers now
00:21:54.200because it's sort of an idol within the camp if you will is the society part yeah it was also
00:22:00.360quite honestly, to me years ago, that was the one that was most foreign. Yeah. Coming out of like a
00:22:05.140middle of the road complementarianism. What do you mean foreign? Well, like when, when I first
00:22:10.100started reading Zach Garris and thinking about this is, you know, even before Zach reading the
00:22:15.300church fathers in Westminster, I was like, whoa, hold on a minute. They're saying that women are
00:22:20.140not to be leading in society. Oh, foreign as in like, you were familiar with the household
00:22:25.760structure yeah but anything outside of the house is like fair game exactly because in in a lot of
00:22:31.420the conservative complementarian camp most guys were very wary of saying anything about a woman
00:22:37.380in career or a woman in political office right or a a lady political podcast or or what have you
00:22:42.800like any of that was off limits yeah right and so it actually was challenging at first uh for me to
00:22:51.120think about that and i think it is for a lot of people that's a really touchy subject in our own
00:22:54.920in our own circles yes we have um in general uh seated the ground even on the level of the
00:23:01.160conversation when the conservative wing of the church are the complementarians who have already
00:23:06.160given away two-thirds of the principle yeah in uh to the feminists you know you have a problem
00:23:13.500and here's what it results in it it results in this state of affairs where if you do normal
00:23:20.220historic patriarchy um like zach garris's book that that we're publishing lord willing not too
00:23:26.000long from now honor thy father's recovering the anti-feminist theology of the reformers
00:23:30.800with receipts you'll see some intramural debates between knox and calvin and bullinger and these
00:23:36.520other folks about um certain finer point details but if you just take the patriarchy of those men
00:23:43.500that would william gooch the puritan even if it was a consensus view yeah even just the things
00:23:48.540they all agreed on and asserted it today in the most charitable, loving, gentle way.
00:23:53.680People would immediately have the instinct of putting the word hyper in front of patriarchy
00:23:58.180and accusing you of being a reactionary, red pill, manosphere, hyper patriarchalist.
00:24:03.740And why do they do that? Well, because first of all, they're ignorant of our tradition. They're
00:24:10.360ignorant of even the Protestant tradition, let alone the Eastern and the Roman Catholic tradition
00:24:16.060and prior. So to them, they don't realize the degree to which they've been discipled
00:24:21.720by feminist background cultural assumptions. Like we're all, this is one thing actually
00:24:27.560Russell Moore pointed out in the OOs when he was still conservative. We are all, he said,
00:24:32.140functionally egalitarian and don't even know it. It's our instinct. And so what comes with that?
00:24:37.500Well, anti-authority. We like even think who's one of the most raging conservatives the last
00:24:43.04020 years. Oh, Mark Driscoll. Okay. Mark Driscoll gets up there in the pulpit. And what is his line
00:24:47.840every time? We are not hierarchical lists like the patriarchy. We're not egalitarian like the
00:24:54.640liberals. We're complementarian. There's no hierarchy here. When again and again, if you
00:24:59.320just read the most boring, plain commentary on the Westminster Confession of the Ten Commandments,
00:25:03.520you get to the Fifth Commandment, the Seventh Commandment, it's these commandments. What do
00:25:06.680you see? Like you see words like inferior and superior used in terms of hierarchy that the
00:25:11.660husband and the hierarchy is above his wife in station and office that the Nate, the ruler of
00:25:16.180the nation is in the wife is above the children. The wife is above the children there. The pastor
00:25:20.140is ruling over the congregation, which is what the word Paul uses in Timothy when he says a pastor
00:25:25.100who rules well ought to be worth. So apparently that's something that is not only good, but it's
00:25:29.100good to do it well. But if you also have the background assumption that ruling means servant
00:25:34.020leadership, that you're actually under the person. Yeah. That ruling means, um, I don't actually
00:25:38.320lead. Yeah, I don't have authority. I do everything that the people under me want to do
00:25:42.280in that serving them. And it's like, well, that's not what Jesus did. Jesus did come to give his
00:25:47.000life away and he wasn't going to lord it over as the human rulers do, but he asserted authority
00:25:51.480and led with courage and he corrected them. And so all of these things that are just baseline
00:25:57.860assumptions of the first Christendom, they are not only alien or not only are we ignorant of them
00:26:03.420today, we're hostile to them, even in the quote conservative camps. So that's why men like us
00:26:09.840often get immediately labeled as hyper patriarchalists, to which I always immediately
00:26:15.560say, what do you mean by hyper? Because we also correct against authoritarianism, which would be
00:26:22.220things like in collapsing of the spheres that a husband is serving communion to his family, or
00:26:27.200that, you know, a husband is arbitrarily refusing permission to marry to a worthy suitor of one of
00:26:33.620his children, like of his daughters. Yeah. One of the things we also talk about in Ephesians five,
00:26:38.180it's very clear that a husband has to first be a man who's under the authority of Christ,
00:26:42.920his elders. Yeah. So we're not saying he's the sole authority of all spheres at all times.
00:26:48.640You know, we're also not, and this, this is something that I think is really important.
00:26:52.920we're not doing the typical complementarian thing where we're continually just saying
00:26:57.180an apology tour for all of this we're saying no no no no our fathers asserted these things gladly
00:27:02.580when done well they are for the good they're deeply good of women children society and you
00:27:08.880see it actually turns out pre-1960 on the whole it wasn't women in this camp being treated like
00:27:15.400dirt no they were the glory as doug says they were the glory of their husbands not scrapers
00:27:21.260for muddy boots. And what you'll see, we're going to talk about this later. I'll just say it now,
00:27:25.340assert it, and we can maybe discuss it later, is that what you'll see is that as soon as you start
00:27:29.260asserting, not just on paper, but in practice, the principles of ordinary Christian patriarchy,
00:27:36.580people will immediately try to conflate you with some horrible evil group that did horrible evil
00:27:43.920things that none of us would say you should do. And it's fundamentally a guilty by association
00:27:49.560fallacy. Right. Right. And this is why I think people have said like, Oh, you guys are red pill
00:27:53.220trad wife. Oh, you're just like Andrew Tate. And we're like, um, no, we call him gay regularly.
00:27:58.800Exactly. And so that's, that's sort of the thing where it requires honest steel manning,
00:28:04.860honest debate with one another, which is something that quite frankly, you don't get a lot of in our
00:28:08.640camp. I don't want to derail this conversation too much, but I think it might be helpful. Eric,
00:28:13.120you have a lot of experience speaking about complimentarianism versus patriarchy. And I think
00:28:18.820For most people, the assumed position is complementarianism because they hear patriarchy and they think all those horrible things that you said, Brian, that the wife has no authority over the children, that she's just like in a prairie dress, barefoot, just filthy, being beat by her husband is kind of like that's patriarchy or some sort of Islamic style patriarchy, which is horrible.
00:28:41.180You know, so the way that you described Mark Driscoll's definition seemed actually like a definition of egalitarianism, just more conservative.
00:28:53.260So one of the problems is even in so 88, 89, you have Danvers, really a group of evangelicals, conservatives trying to respond to egalitarianism.
00:29:03.520So you get John Piper and you get Wayne Grudem.
00:29:06.100And so the book that comes out of this is recovering biblical manhood and womanhood.
00:29:40.400Well, so even looking at this and there's a number of problems with it, but I think what was going on in 89, it's interesting to me that the first many points that they outlined, Piper and Grudem, in that book is they talk about how glorious singleness is.
00:29:58.800And I don't know if it's Piper or Grudem who wrote it, but they say, look, we look around the country, we see egalitarianism taking hold.
00:30:05.600We see that there are more single people than ever.
00:30:07.620let us just reassure you single people like jesus was single paul was single now we have major
00:30:13.480problems with this christ marries the church so he's not single forever paul was probably a
00:30:17.960widower it's not like and that was a very specific or had been abandoned by an unbelieving wife upon
00:30:24.480his conversion one of those two things one of those two is most likely compared to the thesis
00:30:29.560that paul was single uh forever simply because of his status as a pharisee and other there's
00:30:36.260detailed arguments you could hear on that, but I think it's true.
00:30:38.940Yeah. And so, Dan, one of the things that we are affirming is that creation as God made it
00:30:43.700is hierarchical. If you go back to Genesis, which is what Paul and Jesus are always doing,
00:30:48.120you go back to Genesis, what did God do? He created a world. And you notice as creation
00:30:53.220heightens to man, there's an order and a rule. Man rules over creation. And as older commentators
00:31:00.000would say, the reason that Adam, not the Lord, Adam names Eve is because God is allowing him
00:31:06.960to take a rule position, right? So this much is clear. Even William Gouge will say things like,
00:31:14.020you know, Brian mentioned superiority and inferiority, which would make like a feminist
00:31:18.540head explode. But actually many people in our camp, Gouge will say that a wife is in submission
00:31:25.120and ranks lower in the hierarchy than her husband.
00:31:39.540I also don't want to soften it too much because it's not just mere rank.
00:31:43.180It's also that a brigadier general ought to be suited for his rule of command more than the colonel.
00:31:48.560And the colonel ought to be more suited for that command than the private.
00:31:51.280So God made the man not just to arbitrarily be in a position of office superiority, but also he fitted him for that role and her for her role such that it would be contrary to nature for either of them to attempt to invert those roles and it would lead to destruction just like any other time you controvert God's nature and design.
00:32:12.400Right. Really. What you're talking about in that hierarchy is that the ability matches the responsibility. Yes. Right. So a general must be able to lead his military well because the responsibilities are much higher because the cost is much higher. One wrong decision from him. Yeah. Obviously. I mean, everybody would know this, that if a if a husband fails his wife and his kids, it's going to have catastrophic effects.
00:32:36.740All you could do is look at just secular surveys and you could see, you know, when there's
00:32:42.540a absent father or abusive father or a father, you know, who's abandoned his family, the
00:42:17.560I love what Herman Bovink says on this point. He says, quote, the entire organization of the nation was along patriarchal lines. Everyone was divided into clans, families and households, which were ruled by their head or representative or prince. These were all men.
00:42:34.100And then I would say, is the scripture patriarchal in the new covenant?
00:42:37.720Zach makes a really interesting case that Jesus really is the fulfillment of the great
00:43:47.480I'm in somewhat of the same spot, except I still have all my hair.
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00:46:09.820But I think this is this is so important as we talk about this, because it stands in contrast, really the way that the woke CRT mainline evangelical establishment, the Gavin Ortlans of the world have painted Jesus is really with a pink highlighter.
00:46:23.660Right. He's meek and lowly. He's gentle.
00:46:26.200They want it. They want to highlight all those and really never talk about the fact that this guy built a whip of cords, went into the temple, cleansed it.
00:46:34.020Read Matthew 23. Jesus is not in soft speech.
00:46:36.900He's, it's a chapter of curses, covenant curses on the Pharisees.
00:46:41.280This guy goes head to head with people who want to kill him.
00:46:44.840This is, I like how the disciples have been with Jesus now for a couple of years.
00:46:47.900And they're like, Hey Jesus, I think you've offended the scribes and Pharisees.
00:46:52.120And he's like, Oh, actually that reminds me the scribes.
00:50:46.940From these natures flow differing functions.
00:50:50.460So, Brian, one of the things that we've heard was a comment that was made that went something like this.
00:50:57.180I could preach a better sermon than most men in America.
00:51:01.460And when you read this understanding, I think we should hear that like Dan saying, I could nurse children better than most women in America.
00:51:10.820We should say something like, I really wish you had not said that.
00:53:19.500There really is a hardness, properly ordered, in the male nature that is fitted for that work.
00:53:26.800So when a woman says, I could preach a better sermon than a man, she's mistaking what a sermon is.
00:53:31.660She's thinking, well, I could say the correct words in terms of a doctrinal.
00:53:36.480She's thinking merely of communication.
00:53:38.120Right. She's thinking of she is reducing preaching to public speaking. And to do that is to do violence to what preaching is scripturally speaking. It's just to do. This is why all the egalitarians, they love to say things like women were the first ones to preach the gospel. And they're talking about the women from the tomb going and telling the apostles that Jesus was risen.
00:54:24.500But when we say that men are made for, in their nature, to work and to keep, Genesis 2.15, to defend the perimeter, they actually, in their physical natures, this is why they have more muscle mass.
00:54:35.600This is why they are physically stronger.
00:54:37.400And we can say the same thing about women.
00:54:39.040This is why God actually gave them a womb and breast.
01:01:23.660But just understand, Paul does this in the new covenant too, lest you.
01:01:27.420So in Acts 2, 38 and 39, it's reaffirmed.
01:01:29.860It's this promises to you and your children and all who are far off.
01:01:32.220So, and also in Ephesians, when Paul says, hey, this Deuteronomic blessing that came
01:01:38.840along with the 10 commandments of honoring your father and mother that you live long in the land.
01:01:44.100Paul is affirming the covenantal pattern in the new covenant of the old covenant promise
01:01:49.440continuing. Children, honor your parents because God will do something good for you if you do.
01:01:55.000There's blessing that comes along with obedience in his covenant. A lot of times we want to
01:01:58.540collapse everything to its spiritual essence and fail to recognize that God works through
01:02:03.300immediate works. He works through means. So covenant nurture is a means through which he
01:02:09.080accomplishes his covenant blessing. So it's not just, um, you have election up there and then
01:02:14.360everything else is collapsed and there's nothing in between election and the ultimate blessing of
01:02:19.240the covenant. There's a million different covenant streams and blessings and threads.
01:02:23.960It's this big tapestry of the spiritual and the physical that's all woven together by God. And
01:02:28.460you can't tug on the physical thread without also tugging on the spiritual thread.
01:02:32.120Well, and I think something that Doug has said frequently, you can't fight a culture war without a culture, but you also can't have that thriving culture unless women are fulfilling this role of motherhood in the home.
01:02:43.200So this is where I would say like men are primarily out there fighting the fight on the society facing end.
01:02:51.240Women are fighting the fight of building the culture behind you.
01:02:55.160And so if you don't have that culture behind you and if you don't have mothers and homes, right, then I mean, you're not going to build Christendom.
01:03:02.640It's it's not that women don't fight the good fight of the faith.
01:03:06.620It's that they fight in appropriate spheres.
01:03:09.040And even the examples in scripture where women are forced to the shame of men to step up and do classically masculine things.
01:03:15.760Think about Jael in the tent with Sisera.
01:03:37.720Or the woman casting the millstone off of the wall.
01:03:41.740There's a theme in scriptures of the woman's crushing, the woman's seed crushing the serpent's head where a woman throws a millstone across a Bimlic's head.
01:03:48.600Like this is a theme that runs through scripture.
01:03:50.780Deborah is an example of this where, but even Deborah, Deborah's not out there waving a
01:07:48.280So, yeah, really, the church today tends to over spiritualize these elements of masculinity when, in fact, right, we need real strength.
01:07:55.680Everybody's constantly rushing to any time you are pro masculinity and pro man in terms of physical vocation.
01:08:02.240a man needs to work and keep. Therefore he should, generally speaking, if it's within his
01:08:06.720providential, without providential hindrances, he should be strong. He should be able to do these
01:08:10.360things. People are so quick to rush and say, masculinity is not beards and working out guys.
01:08:14.940And you're like, first of all, no one said it was. But secondly, those are actually hallmarks
01:08:19.560of maleness and what it means to act like, and God did that, not me. And what it means to act
01:08:26.280like men, certainly it's more than mere biological maleness, but it's definitely not less.
01:08:31.540Well, this is actually something that comes up that John Piper talks about from his childhood, but he says his father was absent most of his childhood for ministry for evangelism.
01:08:43.080He said I was basically raised by my mom and he says what that taught me was that, you know, being a man masculinity had nothing to do with actual competencies or physical things.
01:08:54.280And I was like, that kind of explains why the theology there is so problematic.
01:09:01.540and why it's been pietistic in saying, yeah, people lose their minds because what I'm trying
01:09:06.660to do functionally in recovering biblical masculinity is to say things like, man, you
01:09:11.180should have some strength. You should be actually have some skills with a firearm or with your hands
01:09:15.620where you could actually defend your family. And then what they hear again, this is people in our
01:09:20.780camp. What people in our camp here are, Oh, some, the only thing that it requires to be a godly man
01:09:25.920is to lift 400 pounds on your deadlift. And we're like, no one said, no, just like literally
01:09:30.660a dress and high heels don't a lady make right see bruce jenner based on yeah transgender shows
01:09:37.060so yeah i mean i've heard that bruce jenner believes himself to be a woman i can't tell
01:09:42.380by looking at him that it's hard to see that he's trying to go for that he just kind of looks like
01:09:48.340a really ugly man so he particularly ugly he he he is that yes okay anyway i do want to ask you
01:09:57.280on this protection we get into trouble have gotten into trouble quite a few times because
01:10:02.140we address things like modesty in women and people will say mind your own business and i would put
01:10:08.340it under this category of part of the protective role of husbands and fathers is to guard the
01:10:14.380sexual purity of their women and so pastorally you know we have to warn about this uh the father
01:10:20.200in the garden yeah post garden is the first one to be like you need more clothes here are clothes
01:10:26.940When the man was the demoniac, when Jesus healed him, he was clothed and in his right mind.
01:10:34.120One of the things that marked his demon possession was he took his clothes off.
01:10:41.480But Brian, a lot of people, the thing would be, why address this at all?
01:10:46.360Are you just being a shock jock on, you know, when you talk about yoga pants?
01:10:49.660No, the prophetic role in terms of the pastoral office is to be the guy standing up on the wall and shouting unpopular things some of the time.
01:10:56.940for the protection of everybody because there are constantly demonic and worldly forces of
01:11:01.780the world of flesh and the devil that are trying to move the, the, the, the Overton window of
01:11:07.500acceptable moral behavior towards unrighteousness. And the only mechanism for holding it fast for
01:11:14.600putting a big pin through it. So it can't move anymore is prophetic yelling. Some of the time,
01:11:19.980like you have to live it, you have to do all of that, but you, you also have to have men who are
01:11:24.000willing to go up and absolutely blaspheme the gods of the age who are trying to do that
01:11:54.800And then Christians are the ones often who stand up and they become useful peons of the demons by saying like they basically say, well, you're attacking women by doing that.
01:15:25.800The way you dress is saying what you are, what your vocational identity is in many ways.
01:15:32.940And so like you could press this over much, I think, but generally speaking, we all have eyes.
01:15:38.900And so we know what clothing is communicating.
01:15:42.140When you clothe yourself in such a way that accentuates as a woman, let's say, all of your sexual features and reveals them or leaves just enough to the imagination and imagination in a tantalizing way, you're communicating something, whether you like it or not, that is speaking.
01:15:59.260It's saying something about the vocation that you consider yourself to be in.
01:16:03.520And the only vocation I can see is that you're the vocation of a prostitute.
01:16:10.480And you're also saying it's for sale because it's being advertised in the public sphere where this gets really controversial today, though, is when we start saying taking these principles out to their logical end and saying things like, you know, there are women who I think are correct on many issues that I would have overlap with that they might write things or do things that I podcast about things that I'm like, I would agree with the content of what they're saying, say against abortion or on political issues.
01:16:40.480And going in, but, but what I would say is you need to step back from doing that. That's not the proper vocation of a woman to go out and do cultural and theological battle in that way. Then instead you have a vocation and it's motherhood and keeping the home and this thing, what Paul laid out in Titus two.
01:16:58.480And so even there, even when it seems like it's not conducive to coalition building or where you get in trouble on Twitter, like we generally tend to do when we're saying, no, we intend to be consistent with these principles all the way down.
01:17:14.080because the last thing I want to do in my church and in my ministry is to put forward a model of
01:17:19.140femininity other than the model of scripture and nature. And if I say those are perfectly
01:17:25.220befitting roles for a woman to do, provided she's on my team politically, am I telling the truth?
01:17:31.460No. Am I helping the women I'm serving? And I'm talking about the adorable little ladies in first
01:17:37.600and second form at St. Brennan's when we get up in chapel and they're singing and they're great.
01:17:41.760I mean, tremendous with giving them a great Christian education, want them to think well, read well, speak well, all these things before, you know, women of virtue and courage and all these things.
01:17:51.640But I don't want to put before those young ladies as they grow up.
01:17:55.120Well, Pastor Brian thinks it's perfectly OK for me to be the breadwinner in my home via political journalism or via theological culture warring.
01:18:05.380I would say, no, that's that's not the vision that I want to put forward because I think it's destructive.
01:19:50.720And there are biblical reasons why you shouldn't be doing this.
01:19:52.980This is not something that we're making up as sort of like crazy, hyper-patriarchal,
01:19:57.020like oppressive you know masculinity beard wearing yeah muscle bound i wish yeah this is sort of guys
01:20:04.880yeah and it's very broad that's a broad um the things that are encompassed in that job description
01:20:10.520in titus 2 massive huge include making immortal souls my wife and i have been talking about these
01:20:16.620things on our bright heart thing for you know hours and hours and hours and hours and we're
01:20:21.720we're talking about them in our home constantly and she's having just yesterday they were women
01:20:25.520in our house and they were making marmalade together and there's all these different skills
01:20:29.500and beautiful things and it's a broad well and if you understand masculinity rightly i see you eric
01:20:35.060i'll get to you in a minute i'll get if you understand the husband's role in the covenant
01:20:41.460household you understand that i go out and i fight i go out and i provide i go out and i defend
01:20:49.280so that my wife can focus on my generation, my legacy, my name for the glory of Christ so that
01:20:56.020he might bless my family to the thousandth generation. My wife this morning accidentally
01:21:01.700texted me and Eric together. So Eric got a front row seat to this, but she actually meant to just
01:21:06.320text me and she was expressing frustration at some discourse on Twitter, basically that some women
01:21:11.900she felt were being very disrespectful and unladylike. I know, I know. And that they were
01:21:18.560even older women and that they were being really, really brash, especially towards like pastors and
01:21:24.500and things like that, regardless of whether we agreed about the issue. She was commenting on
01:21:27.800the nature of how they were doing it. And she said, I'm being tempted right now to like go and
01:21:32.900like throw some blows out there. And I told her that, you know, you're right from the examples
01:21:39.560you gave there. Those women are they're not operating in their role. That's in they shouldn't
01:21:44.160be doing that and also because we believe that principle you shouldn't go right now and tweet
01:21:49.280angry things about it either let us handle it or or if it needs to be handled and she's this
01:21:55.660the thing that it does like your point is that's protection that means my wife does not need to
01:22:02.360stew on controversies on twitter that's not her job does she have time for that no she's she
01:22:10.140doesn't have time for that she's raising my six children she's teaching younger women in our
01:22:13.840church. And she's like all these things. So that's not in her nature. It's not in her nature. If she
01:22:18.920does that, I know my wife, like what I can do. And we've all learned to do this in pastoral
01:22:23.740ministry and as men, we can have the most wild controversy going on or church discipline
01:22:28.560situation, a really difficult thing. And most of the time go, and now I'm going home and I'm not
01:22:34.180going to think about that anymore. Compartmentalization. And I'm just not going to emotionally
01:22:37.400respond to it for the next 24 hours and just do that. My wife cannot do that. No.
01:22:43.840Dan, one of the things that you mentioned earlier, this connection between being in the home and the cultivation of a gentle and quiet spirit.
01:22:50.560It's really interesting to me because when you see women in the conservative Christian camps who they want to have a podcast or a conference speaking to her or whatever it is, it always seems to end up with women, as Brian said, being brash in public.
01:23:05.280And so pastorally, one of the things that we're guarding against is I don't actually want our women, my wife, our daughters to become that way.
01:23:12.860Yeah. And the, the, the thing I have seen from practical experience here in Ogden is we, we generally do have women who are sweet. They're kind. They're not training themselves on a daily basis to be combative with their words.
01:23:27.100They're also incredibly intelligent and well-read and cared for.
01:23:31.260So this is the other problem we commonly hear.
01:27:09.220And I think if people see it, generally speaking, they realize our women are a glory.
01:27:16.240All these people, anytime one of my tweets goes viral to the pagans, they're always like, oh, blink twice, honey, if you need to get out to my wife.
01:27:23.500She's always like, what are you talking about?
01:27:26.680Like, I can't imagine a place that we'd rather be than here.
01:27:31.040They're not like captives to this oppressive, patriarchal, heavy handed, like hyper Gothardite.
01:30:47.480and make real kind of political gain and that sort of thing.
01:30:50.540And I'm saying that the principles that you actually live out,
01:30:54.300especially on these central issues, um, are going to be what you actually believe. Like you can have
01:31:00.960things on paper, but if you live out principles, contrary to what's on paper, then those principles
01:31:06.580you're living out are your real principles. So when you put those two things together,
01:31:11.340we think this is central. We think this is so central that you need to live it all the way out
01:31:17.300and that therefore we must live by the principles in actuality and not by some other set of
01:31:23.340principles, even if they would moderate a little bit and make fewer people angry with us. And it's
01:31:28.700the kind of thing where, you know, when you start getting consistent with these principles,
01:31:32.760because of the nature of the, and the depth of the counter discipleship that feminism has
01:31:38.240performed in our culture, like we've talked about, it, it really is the case that sometimes you're
01:31:43.320going to get pushback and people are going to say, Hey, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You're
01:31:46.940not allowed to take that principle there. Like calm down on that. You need to like sort of hold
01:31:52.280that one more privately and this kind of thing i think comes up sometimes well and and i would say
01:31:57.740for myself like having been doing this twitter thing for a while you know before 2020 um part
01:32:04.680of it is that like i remember getting calls from guys in the sbc and they would be like hey dude
01:32:09.440love what you're saying like i could never publicly identify with you but like needs to be said sort
01:32:16.020you sort of see the divide brian's talking about where it's like i would never publicly assert that
01:32:20.960And I think for my money, I just got tired of it because I saw complementarian conservative Christians losing that cultural war decade after decade.
01:32:33.040And I was like, well, you're losing because you're afraid – you're fundamentally afraid or too cowardly to publicly assert your principles.
01:32:40.860And that's why the culture keeps shifting further and further left.
01:32:43.860Meanwhile, the left is not afraid to assert their principles no matter how insane they are.
01:32:48.140Yeah. And when you assert your principles, you're going to expect some pushback and things like that.
01:32:52.100And this explains a lot of you guys probably saw this, like one of our fathers in the faith who we all honor and like Douglas Wilson, who, again, we have a classical Christian school.
01:33:03.000We sing from the Cantus Christi. We've there would be no Ogden, Utah, without Pastor Wilson.
01:33:07.820There'd be no St. Brandon's Classical Christian Academy without Pastor Wilson.
01:33:11.820It was reading his book that convinced me we need to have a school 10 years ago.
01:33:14.800I've bought hundreds of books from Cannon Press written by Doug Wilson for people in our church.
01:33:21.220And deeply shaped by his principles, his written principles on all manner of things, but especially many of them on the very issues that we're talking about.
01:33:33.280But I think Pastor Wilson has a different sensibility than us on some of these things when it comes to, like, say, the Ali Beth Stuckey thing.
01:33:40.300And maybe one of you guys can pull up his tweet because he tagged Eric.
01:34:30.100If I might, I would like to suggest a ceasefire when it comes to Eric Kahn and Allie Beth
01:34:35.480Stuckey and adjacent participants and bystanders.
01:34:38.440This is not to pretend that there are no substantive disagreements, but simply to note that the areas of agreement actually do far outweigh the differences.
01:34:50.260Allie Beth has done an awful lot of good, and I think the best policy would be to let her continue to have at it.
01:34:58.120Her warnings in that initial clip were quite reasonable.
01:35:01.880This is a founder's clip that he's referencing.
01:35:03.860Her warnings in that initial clip were quite reasonable.
01:35:06.500domesticity is a whole lot easier on Instagram than other places. In real life, there are no
01:35:12.940filters. But in the same spirit, the Ogden gents are zealous for application and obedience and the
01:35:18.740modern evangelical world is allergic to practical application. You can differ with some of their
01:35:24.620applications but still applaud the spirit of application. We should all be willing to grant
01:35:30.060that some women in head coverings are in bondage and that some dancing co-eds are in a different
01:35:35.700kind of bondage i propose a new acronym no enemies to the reasonable right and no enemies to the
01:35:42.940immediate left either which is netter and nettle netter and netto which is a classic last sentence
01:35:51.120yes it's a classic doug quip yeah end quote end quote i mean may we all come you know have have
01:35:57.420half the wit what was the quip doug made at the conference on the panel oh he said something like
01:36:03.920you know, there's sometimes there's an inverse proportion between the size of the head covering
01:36:08.040and the quiet spirit of the woman. You know, for example, you might approach a husband and say,
01:36:13.600I'm wondering why your, your wife wears a head covering to which he replies, well, she insists.
01:36:19.320Yeah, that was, that was, that was pretty dang funny. We did have a good laugh.
01:36:22.920Yeah. On this kind of issue, there's some differences in instinct. There's some differences
01:36:28.760and assessment of the situation in value where Pastor Wilson saying, look, I think that if you
01:36:35.660weighed what the criticisms of say, because our core criticism of someone like Allie Beth Stuckey,
01:36:41.040as we've just said, is here's our principles. We don't think it's good or helpful as a model to say,
01:36:46.060let's send our women to do political commentary and the types of things that Allie Beth engages
01:36:50.580in, as well as theological battle and cultural battle within the ecclesiastical sphere, which
01:36:55.700she also primarily engages in, particularly in a way that though a lot of it is directed
01:37:00.960in a womanward direction, it's very much abroad.
01:37:57.460So that's the sort of thing that we look at and we say, okay, you know, put that one on the list.
01:38:01.540We, we do not want our women having the kind of attitude where they're laughing and mocking
01:38:05.500their husbands and telling them they're stupid when they're trying to do their job.
01:38:08.880And that would include, by the way, if a husband said, honey,
01:38:12.480I don't want you to listen to the King's hall podcast anymore.
01:38:15.740Yeah, we would not be, we would be sinning.
01:38:18.180if we said, talk to your husband, your husband's an idiot. He needs to be more based. He needs to
01:38:22.500listen to us. I'd say, no, no, listen to your husband. Yeah. Like if a woman came and asked
01:38:26.380me, my husband told me not to listen to you guys anymore. I'd say, don't listen to us anymore.
01:38:29.780Simple S just don't obey your husband. Yeah. Listen to him. Yeah. And so there's that part.
01:38:34.000And then the other part is that, um, Allie Beth has publicly attacked ordained pastors. So a lot
01:38:40.880of this started last year when Allie Beth was teaching on complementarianism and she brought
01:38:45.780up patriarchy. And she labeled, I think what she's perceiving as our camp, she labeled that as
01:38:51.980red pill trad wife. So this is where the miss she's teaching theology, first of all, on her
01:38:58.760very public platform. And then she ends up using that to attack. I got attacked. Joel Webin got
01:39:03.860attacked. Previous years, Michael Foster got attacked. So it's not just one person. And
01:39:08.820there's been a consistent pattern with this woman of doing this. We actually find this really
01:39:13.520harmful so what's interesting i think about also the language of ceasefire ali is in the public
01:39:19.880sphere she is advocating public ideas in my mind it's fair game for me to interact with those ideas
01:39:25.940yeah she's she's even screenshotting tweets of yours cutting my face off your face part way and
01:39:31.160then and then saying things yeah saying things about me like well this this pastor is jealous
01:39:36.620of my platform right um he's through envy that he's he's a grifter and a charlatan right i mean
01:39:42.180slandering open slander from this lady toward an ordained minister so i look at those things and i
01:39:47.500say okay don't want to replicate that one of the questions i would have in all this too is you know
01:39:53.100you can't really have a ceasefire if the other party's still shooting and and and but even
01:39:57.940characterizing it as a ceasefire well i would say well this is just an exchange of ideas i'm actually
01:40:04.560not like offended her i don't want to destroy a person right because the core thing this is this
01:40:11.900This is the problem. This is why it's an intractable problem is because it's truly a problem over deep principles in their application where for for Allie Beth to give her the benefit of the doubt for her to agree with us on the issue would mean to stop doing what she's doing.
01:40:28.920So it's not just, you know, like this little thing where we're asking just, hey, maybe don't talk about us that way.
01:40:36.760It's not that it, the disagreement isn't about primarily, oh, she was mean to one of our friends
01:40:42.880or something like that. Primarily it's over the principle where we're actually not doing it first
01:40:46.580to try and win Allie Beth Stuckey. We're doing it first to say, because it's an extraordinarily
01:40:50.600popular podcast. Many women in our church, we discovered had listened to it and things like
01:40:54.940that. We're saying we actually don't believe media is imitation. You, you consume media and
01:41:00.040you imitate the things that you consider to be good, true, and beautiful in it, right? People,
01:41:04.400you become conformed to your teachers. This is what, you know, Hugh of St. Victor talked about
01:41:09.440in the educational world, in the classical Christian world, where he basically said that
01:41:12.900a teacher is like a seal, a signet ring. The student is like wax. You put the seal of the
01:41:17.460teacher on the wax of the student. You become like the teacher. Jesus said a disciple when he's fully
01:41:23.740taught will become like his teacher in Luke. So what we're saying is, I'm not trying to convince
01:41:30.760Sally Beth first. I'm actually trying to say ladies who are in our sphere of influence,
01:41:34.900which would start in our homes, expand to the church, and then expand to the people who listen
01:41:39.700to us in our public ministries. Okay. We don't think this is a good model. So I wouldn't agree
01:41:46.800that there's more good than harm because I think the nature of the platform itself
01:41:51.200is a fundamental harm. Yeah. And you can see the previous hour and 20 minutes that we gave
01:41:56.760all of the principles outlined, very helpful quotes and teaching from Pastor Doug Wilson
01:42:01.460that would lead us to say that one of the reasons that you shouldn't listen to ABS and other
01:42:07.960teachers like her is that it's actually feminist feminism being exercised there.
01:42:14.460Yeah, I think some of the core principles, it's what I've called crypto feminism,
01:42:17.580meaning you have these underlying assumptions where you'll claim to be complementarian,
01:42:21.440but it was, of course, Allie Beth who said something like,
01:42:23.320I could preach better than most men in America.
01:42:25.320Now, I won't do that just because arbitrarily God commanded me not to.
01:42:30.360But it's interesting because, you know, and we'll get into this, but Bendel Wary and then Jeff Wright had actually covered this in a podcast last year.
01:42:40.760And there were like a lot of these things.
01:42:42.240God called me to do it, you know, saying that exactly.
01:42:46.560Well, I'm not going to preach even though I could do it better.
01:42:48.960This is actually a lot of the same rhetoric.
01:42:50.740And they highlight how it's the exact same rhetoric that Beth Moore had used and Amy
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01:46:26.080today and see what would best serve your family. And just so you know, if you schedule a call,
01:46:30.980you'll be speaking with Jace, Ethan, or Stu, three members of Refuge Church right here in
01:46:36.380Ogden. Head to ogden.gold and check it out today. So this is not like, we're not rejecting
01:46:44.980a few modern innovations. I'm not going to do the thing where I'm going to try to pick out
01:46:50.100the meat from first wave feminism and spit out the bones. I'm just going to say from the foundation.
01:46:56.820Like in a way, it's kind of Vantillian of me to be like presuppositionally like it is false teaching.
01:47:03.860And it was not just false teaching about society, by the way.
01:47:06.460It was in in open and hostile warfare against Christian faith and doctrine.
01:47:55.180As long as somebody on the premises affirms inerrancy, and as long as Susie Q stays out of the pulpit between 11 a.m. and noon on Sundays, she can do anything an unordained man can do.
01:48:05.700Perhaps someone might wonder how that got to be the standard, which I call a reasonable question.
01:48:11.620The central thing I'm talking about, of course, is that pestilence that we, for some reason, want to call women's ministries.
01:48:17.960Some will no doubt object and say that the way I introduce a subject, I'm making women's ministry sound like a bad thing.
01:48:24.780And far from this being the place where I violate my no quarter November rule against qualifications, I will simply nod and say that, yes, women's ministries were a terrible idea and have already been the destruction of numerous churches.
01:48:38.480Whoever thought it up should have been flogged out in front of the synagogue.
01:48:42.400So, yes, women's ministries have been a disaster.
01:48:45.220And don't get me started on women counselors.
01:48:48.260I have much more I could read, but I don't know if you had a response to that.
01:48:51.900Yeah, I think basically the reason we wanted to share this, A, we found it helpful.
01:48:57.040But in my view, correct me if I'm wrong, Brian, but this would be kind of, I see Doug doing a similar thing, like taking a principle, taking it in no quarter of November to a very unpopular place.
01:52:17.140They are the women in your church who recognize that whining is not a spiritual gift.
01:52:22.560And we had come to a lot of these conclusions in about 2016, in about 2016.
01:52:27.740And we didn't have the benefit of this article to send people yet.
01:52:30.880But when we fought this, this was, again, a lot of people left and left scratching eyes and very angry and kind of, you know, they were, it was, it was, it got catty.
01:53:19.120So fundamentally, what we're what we're saying is that, well, first of all, we weren't actually trying to convince Ali Bastaki of something primarily.
01:53:29.440We're actually trying to stand on a principle that's central land that you can't give up and that it applies to aspects of her ministry and her platform that we think ought not to be.
01:53:41.400And so we're not willing to, on the level of principle, say we'll overlook those principle differences because of the good that's happening.
01:53:50.660That's just not that. That's not. I think like there's a tactical disagreement happening here between how Doug's reading it and how we are about the principle, because, again, he's the one that taught us all these principles.
01:54:02.700Yeah. And you have to understand, too, that no one here, Eric Kahn was mentioned in the tweet. Eric Kahn is not a free agent. He does not operate independently. He actually has the responsibility of hundreds of souls at Refuge Church in Ogden, Utah, a real place, a real church with real people that have real costs.
01:54:20.920And so Eric Kahn, Brian Sauve, Dan Burkholder, all the elders at Refuge Church have to stand in the way to protect the people of Refuge Church from harmful teachings, harmful ideologies, a harmful culture that would actually seek to enslave them instead of set them free in Christ.
01:54:38.680in the most subversive version of it just i know this is can be hard to hear because a lot of the
01:54:44.320time you're looking at ladies you're like well she seems like such a sweet lady like a lot i've
01:54:50.160disagreed with i wouldn't like i've disagreed a lot of what ally beth said and like some of her
01:54:53.720tone and tenor and things like that but let's just take generally speaking i think there are women
01:54:57.540who would violate this principle that you go wow she seems like a really sweet lady respects her
01:55:01.420husband and she's not trying the way right on a lot of things right not trying to be a loud brash
01:55:07.480not trying to do that and so so this might be hard to hear but here's what we're saying one of the
01:55:13.540most subversive ways to lose this ground is by actually doing that by platforming conservative
01:55:20.600women to do things they ought not be doing why because who is more likely to convince our women
01:55:25.580of something a random raging liberal feminist or someone that they're like oh no this is okay
01:55:40.400And then, and here's the thing, again, I'm not accusing anybody with a, with this kind of platform today of being a raging, a secret raging feminist or something like that.
01:55:49.180But, but here's the thing, the historical pattern is that women with platforms like this routinely become leftist over time, routinely become leftist women that started by saying,
01:56:01.960I am a conservative theologian. I believe in this creed and this creed and this confession and I'm complementarian. I'm all these things. I mean, so many times has it ended in one, two, three, five years later saying, actually, I think women should preach. Actually, I think that complementarianism is inherently abusive and harmful. Right. Yeah, that's exactly right. So this gets into where this is where he's law, which is kind of in really the second part of where he's law.
01:56:26.920Every conservative woman with a public platform is on a trajectory toward liberalism.
01:56:32.180And, of course, he uses the Simpson meme.
01:56:34.040He's like, don't make me tap the sign.
01:56:35.580But we've seen him post this and others as well.
01:56:39.320And it's crazy because it just keeps coming up again and again and again.
01:56:44.500And it's almost like and it is like God wrote this into the nature of men and women.
01:56:51.800And then he told us to do a certain thing.
01:56:53.740And when you violate that principle, this is why we're saying you're you're violating the nature of who women are when you promote women like this.
01:58:50.680And I don't mean feminine in a good way.
01:58:52.300I mean, that is when the woman goes into the agon of male discourse, she's tempted to use progressive instincts because she can't fight on the level of strength.
01:59:03.280So they often are tempted to fight via political maneuvering, which which frankly reverts to logical fallacy with frequency.
01:59:12.540Yeah. And actually, Doug has been really helpful on this in writing articles about, you know, avoiding the leftward drift.
01:59:18.300Yeah. Right. And and and so I don't really think this is an option to just say, well, just make a false piece for the sake of platforms and put aside politics and everything like that.
01:59:27.780coalition building and coalition build he says this he quotes robert conquest second uh law of
01:59:33.980politics he says any organization not explicitly right wing sooner or later becomes left wing
01:59:39.800and he says uh in response to this quote this is why christian organizations often falter first
01:59:46.000they pretend to be above politics which means yeah that they can make a principled choice not
01:59:51.220to be right wing however this principled stand doesn't keep conquest law from being true and
01:59:57.060And that is from his article, The Nature of a Transitive Verb and the Failure of Conservatism, Inc.
02:07:11.780And as a wife, how can you respect your husband?
02:07:15.660So even if she does something like she's written a short kind of booklet, sort of somewhere between a booklet and a book, kind of like loving the little years length about respecting your husband marital as a wife, respecting your husband.
02:07:29.520There will be no doubt about who this book is to who it's for.
02:08:37.500But we would not have this – we wouldn't even be talking about any of the names that we've mentioned in terms of ladies if that's what they were doing.
02:11:09.360You can see the framework in which we're viewing all of these controversies through so that there's no shadow of a doubt we're not in this for some sort of political power or some like bigger tent full of more people or some bigger platform, more income, something like that.
02:11:24.740We're literally just, we learned from one of the best living teachers in Christendom and that's Doug Wilson.
02:11:32.680And he brought us back to a lot of great, great Christian pastors and teachers and taught us a lot of these principles.
02:11:40.860And now we're looking out and we're like, we're just confused.
02:14:05.960We have to protect our people from that.
02:14:07.400That would be a really dumb thing to say because it's profoundly false.
02:14:11.720And, but again, the, the little pushback that I would give, and it's kind of related to
02:14:16.120the whole trad wife conversation, something that we talked about earlier, that when people
02:14:20.480say, look at all these bros who are reducing masculinity to beards and physical strength.
02:14:25.660And I would say again, well, certainly it is more than that, but the physical, um, out
02:14:32.020exterior and external things related to the sex realities that God made. It's not less than those.
02:14:38.900So I would also say though, that dresses are wonderful. They're a wonderful way of demonstrating
02:14:45.580that you are a woman when you dress like a woman and that sourdough again, transgender men, we
02:14:50.960could say in Asia, we could say wear dresses. We could say in Asia, maybe it's making noodles and
02:14:56.100in somewhere else, it's whatever the cultural food is that you're making food is important to the
02:15:01.200home. So these are important things. So femininity is certainly not that, not it's more than that,
02:15:07.300but it's not less than that. But some of the things felt like, well, these are not things
02:15:11.960that we would ever say or reduce femininity or masculinity to. And again, this matters because
02:15:18.460we're pastoring people who listen to these things. Yeah, that's absolutely right. And I would say
02:15:22.880this too, you mentioned some of Rachel's books. I know my wife has found them very helpful.
02:15:28.080And then Becca, you know, her book, Even Exile, a very helpful critique in many ways on feminism, really going out in the public space and really criticizing, you know, the feminist ideal.
02:15:39.340And so, you know, we benefited from a lot of that.
02:15:42.420And I think we'll, you know, continue to find areas where it's like, you know, we're in agreement.
02:15:49.420Nancy, Nancy Wilson, Mrs. Wilson, is one of the most helpful examples of Titus II type of ministry out there.
02:15:59.100So I regularly recommend her book on grandparenting, on being a pastor's wife.
02:16:03.920I have read both Becca and Rachel's books, Loving Little Years, and what's the other one?
02:16:13.800I've read them both probably five plus times because I regularly try to read works by women to women to help me preach and apply the text more.
02:16:29.560So I read books on grandmothering, mothering.
02:16:32.340I read books on all this stuff with frequency and have found those books to be helpful.
02:16:36.520So I don't think I'd like this is not a scorched earth kind of thing.
02:16:39.320we're just saying maybe if there's any confusion that we're like promoting some of the things I
02:16:44.180said, we're not. And then, but secondly, that a lot of the principles that we're talking about
02:16:49.220as being so important that we wouldn't bend on them are things that I think that they've,
02:16:54.920I've learned from, from the Moscow tribe, from Toby Sumter and from Pastor Wilson.
02:17:00.160A hundred percent. And to be clear, I think, you know, again, one of the things that was
02:17:03.140mentioned is like, it seems like a lot of these, whoever's doing this, these camps that are
02:17:06.340attacking Alliebeth. Like you want women to be dumb. You don't want them to be intelligent.
02:17:10.620Obviously to the point earlier, uh, we built a Christian classical school with inspiration from
02:17:15.980Doug and all their people. Um, so none of those things are true. And, uh, I think the big goal
02:17:21.580in all of this, Brian is, as you said, to continue to assert our principles, a biblical
02:17:26.740patriarchy. We certainly want to do that, uh, with charity toward the people who are like
02:17:31.820standing right next to us yes um in a lot of these things um that being said i think it is actually
02:17:36.960helpful this whole conversation is was helpful for me because it's really forced me to think
02:17:41.840through this more yeah and so if one of the things i would say about one of the guards against women
02:17:48.060in the agon is you've you've heard the old trope right men will get in a fight and then afterwards
02:17:53.740we get a beer and it's like i've gotten in some knockdown drag amounts before this podcast
02:17:58.020with dan yeah but he's seen one of my best friends right so yeah it doesn't have to be
02:18:03.500it's not cats clawing eyes out or anything like that we're wrestling through ideas that's making
02:18:09.040us all better and and here's the thing there's an illustration i think that gets to some of the
02:18:13.480point and maybe just a final like bridge building thing is that there is a time when sometimes
02:18:18.600people will um in a tactical way say let's not focus on this issue let's focus on that issue
02:18:24.000And I think about the take in World War Two with Russia and Germany, where Germany is invading Russia. And one of the best ways for Russia to immediately lose that war was to stand at the border, spread all their troops equally about it and fall victim to the the quip that Napoleon made to one of his commanders when he showed him his tactical map for how he's going to defend the realm.
02:18:45.420And he said, are you trying to defend against smugglers or are you trying to defend against war?
02:18:49.740Because smugglers, yeah, evenly spread across the border and fight, you know, whatever.
02:18:54.240But in a land war, what the Russians did successfully at great cost was they traded space for time.
02:19:02.580So they would engage with where's the enemy?
02:19:05.840Put all of our troops there, engage, tactical retreat, go back another 20 miles.
02:19:10.320and they were constantly giving Russian territory to the German forces, you know, all the way back
02:19:15.880to Stalingrad and these famous battles. They were giving up land. Why? For the sake of time,
02:19:22.240so that they didn't all die at the first battle. But what was the purpose of it? It wasn't so that
02:19:28.860they could keep retreating all the way back into the Barents Sea or whatever's on the other. I
02:19:32.540couldn't tell you. I'm bad at public school geography, but, you know, they didn't do it
02:19:36.540For that sake, they did it so that they could constantly reform and engage with a weighted counter stroke and make it make every mile that they took costly in men and treasure in blood and treasure.
02:19:50.640So I am willing to say that there are differences in tactics sometimes on when to trade space for time and things like that.
02:19:58.160On this principle, I believe this is this is an area where it's actually a different metaphor that's reigning.
02:20:05.120it's that this has already been conquered by the progressives and so we're not trading space for
02:20:10.940time we're attacking we're invading we're the ones who are saying i'm coming for the capital
02:20:18.920city of feminism and i'm going to raise the freaking jolly roger over it yeah and we're
02:20:23.840going to we are going to you know steal all of your bill everything back and we're going to
02:20:29.080we're going to put the flag of christendom over it and that's going to be what's happening
02:20:31.960We're not defending this, this territory was long abandoned by our, you know, the last few generations. We are a counter insurgency. Yeah, we're going, we're not trading space for time. We're all out of salt. And this is, I think, a key principle. So there might be tactical disagreements at play here. Again, that's why we believe that politically speaking, it's helpful to have alliances and coalitions across differences. But it's also good to be clear within different camps where the principles are.
02:20:59.380And just so everybody knows, this is a principle that we're not going to get, we're not going
02:21:27.160I'm actually glad to know that that's where he stands, and I would never ask him to compromise that for the sake of whatever.
02:21:33.920But I can work together with Dusty, and we can fight abortion, and we can fight against no-fault divorce, and I can politically support him and say, I have this guy's back, and I'm not watering my principle down or asking him to.
02:21:46.660And so this is one of those things where we're not trying to say, oh, ceasefire, no ceasefire.
02:21:52.940Our guns are all blazing and we're coming for you, Moscow, like buckle up.
02:21:57.160No, we're saying this is one of our core principles over here.
02:22:03.480And we have no interest in trading machine gun fire with you because we're going to be too busy trying to reconquer the lands that our fathers gave up.
02:22:14.280yeah and i i think it's also really helpful to understand i haven't really done it much in this
02:22:19.000episode but i want to do it for dan's sake uh to understand what's going on in terms of the lord of
02:22:23.420the rings so one of the things that i've always found helpful i love lord of the rings i knew it
02:22:28.740particularly between gondor and rohan like rohan is very different than gondor in many many ways
02:22:35.620but that doesn't mean that they're at odds they can still fight on the same team all those things
02:22:39.720and so to brian's point i think it's really helpful if we each understand and appreciate
02:22:44.420some of the distinctions that we have and then also i i do want to say you know as i've listened
02:22:50.460to some podcasts and and and all that which we've talked about i want to take doug's principle which
02:22:56.080has been painful at times for me to adhere to but steel man your opponent if you have a
02:23:02.280disagreement like you go back and you're like okay point to me where they said that and let's
02:23:06.100actually look at the argument if that is in fact the thing and then and then we can be fair to each
02:23:11.080other so i think that's another thing that helps with some of the intramural you know so that we
02:23:15.220don't step on each other's toes too much being fair to each other i think is really helpful
02:23:19.920dan i want to give you the microphone because i know how much you covet the microphone and talking
02:23:24.940and whatnot heretofore so closing thoughts on this episode's patriarchy new christendom
02:23:32.620we're sending people out with sort of a charge so you want me to give you a charge okay i think
02:23:39.040it's really important for you listener to understand what principles um if principles
02:23:45.060were hills which ones would you die on yeah which ones would you die on and you need tactics and
02:23:52.280strategies there are actually hills in which you could be right but strategically they're not
02:24:51.780That the underlying society, the cultural background was all based on the law of God and on the mercy of Christ and the grace of God in Christ, and that we want to recover that.
02:25:05.240We want to tread the old paths, to clear the rubble, to clear the garbage that modern evangelicalism has built up in shantytowns, and we want to rebuild the first Christendom in a better way, without the errors and everything like that of the first Christendom,