The Matt Walsh Show - Ep. 103 - Why It's Impossible To Have Fruitful Debates In Our Culture

00:00:00.000 So, Norm Macdonald, the comedian Norm Macdonald is the latest to end up getting trampled by the pitchfork mob. 0.99

00:00:09.800 And this was, I mean, this was inevitable.

00:00:11.980 This was going to happen with Norm Macdonald because he's known for being irreverent and politically incorrect and all that.

00:00:17.280 And also he's got a Netflix show coming out.

00:00:19.300 So he's been, he has poked his head up above everybody else and made himself visible.

00:00:26.560 And once you do that, then they're going to come after you and try to beat you back down.

00:00:31.380 That's the way it goes.

00:00:32.980 So, so his, his, his appearance on the Tonight Show was canceled a couple nights ago amid outcry over some comments that he made, comments that allegedly minimized sexual assault and racism.

00:00:47.420 And supposedly these comments, I'll read the comments to you in a minute, but his comments were so terrible that they made some producers on the Tonight Show cry.

00:00:56.560 And the Jimmy Fallon came into him before he was, before they were about to go on air and said, you know, my producers are in tears.

00:01:05.400 Now I can't, these were comments that Norm Macdonald made to the Hollywood Reporter.

00:01:11.600 He was giving an interview with the Hollywood Reporter.

00:01:14.620 I can't imagine reading an interview in the Hollywood Reporter with a comedian and weeping.

00:01:21.780 I can't imagine anything.

00:01:23.920 I mean, literally, I cannot think of a single thing a comedian in the Hollywood Reporter could say that would make me weep.

00:01:32.660 I just can't imagine what that would be.

00:01:36.120 But that's what happened.

00:01:37.320 So the appearance was canceled.

00:01:39.160 And then, and then, you know, there've been a lot of hot takes in the media explaining why Norm Macdonald's comments were problematic and symptomatic and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:01:48.880 So let me, I think of everything that he said in the interview, here are the two segments that have gotten all the attention and are supposedly controversial.

00:01:59.940 I'll read them to you.

00:02:00.520 He says, he says, I'm happy the Me Too movement has slowed down a little bit.

00:02:04.880 It used to be 100 women can't be lying. 1.00

00:02:07.620 And then it became one woman can't lie. 0.99

00:02:09.620 And that became, I believe all women.

00:02:11.820 And then you're like, what?

00:02:12.900 Like that Chris Hardwick guy, I really thought he got the blunt end of the stick there.

00:02:18.640 And then a little bit later on, he says, well, Louis C.K. and Roseanne are the two people I know.

00:02:24.700 And Roseanne was so broken up that I got Louis to call her, even though Roseanne was very hard on Louis before that.

00:02:30.580 But she was just so broken and just crying constantly.

00:02:33.660 There are very few people that have gone through what they have, losing everything in a day.

00:02:37.620 Of course, people will go, what about the victims?

00:02:40.300 But you know what?

00:02:41.500 The victims didn't have to go through that.

00:02:47.480 Okay.

00:02:49.380 Now, let's just say first and foremost here that the outrage is ridiculous because he's not wrong about what he said, is he?

00:03:00.700 What did he say that was wrong?

00:03:04.200 What's he wrong about?

00:03:05.440 And I know that doesn't matter anymore.

00:03:07.680 It doesn't matter with the outrage culture.

00:03:10.300 It doesn't even matter if what you said is true.

00:03:13.380 People will say, it doesn't matter if it's true.

00:03:15.420 You shouldn't have said it anyway.

00:03:16.980 It's hurtful.

00:03:18.040 It hurts people.

00:03:19.600 People might be hurt by the truth, so you shouldn't say it.

00:03:22.780 But I think it does matter.

00:03:24.560 It does matter whether if something is true, if it's a valid point, then there's no reason to be upset about it.

00:03:33.340 So, where is the wrong part?

00:03:36.580 What did he say that was wrong?

00:03:37.620 Let's go through this.

00:03:39.020 Let's go through this one more time.

00:03:40.300 Let's go through it again and try to find the wrongness because I didn't see it.

00:03:45.740 I didn't see it.

00:03:46.320 At first blush, I couldn't find it.

00:03:47.920 But let's go through it again.

00:03:49.520 He says, I'm happy the Me Too movement has slowed down a little bit.

00:03:52.240 It used to be 100 women can't be lying. 1.00

00:03:53.800 Then it became one woman can't lie. 0.74

00:03:55.040 And that became, I believe, all women.

00:03:56.320 So, okay.

00:03:56.920 Is he wrong there?

00:03:57.900 That is the trajectory, right?

00:03:59.280 That is how it's gone.

00:04:00.600 It used to be that you have a bunch of women accusing a guy, and then we would say, well, look, all these women, it doesn't make any sense to say that they're all lying.

00:04:09.800 It's either the guy is lying or 12 or 15 women are lying. 1.00

00:04:14.140 And it just doesn't make any sense to assume that all those women are lying and the guy's telling the truth.

00:04:18.720 So, you know, that's how it used to be.

00:04:20.280 But then it became, and Norm is right about this, then it became, well, if one woman accuses a guy, then we automatically have to believe the woman.

00:04:30.780 We cannot even consider the possibility that maybe she's the liar and he's telling the truth.

00:04:36.940 We can't even consider it.

00:04:38.160 And then that became the, and this is the mantra of the Me Too movement and of feminists, but I believe women.

00:04:43.260 Believe women.

00:04:44.720 What kind of statement is that?

00:04:46.200 Believe women? 0.99

00:04:46.960 So I have to believe whatever a woman tells me because she's a woman? 0.99

00:04:51.340 Like a woman can never lie?

00:04:52.740 Is that what you're telling me?

00:04:53.640 Of course, that's crazy.

00:04:55.120 So he's right there.

00:04:56.060 He's right to criticize that.

00:04:58.240 And then he says Chris Hardwick got the blunt end of the stick.

00:05:00.940 What's wrong with that?

00:05:01.460 He did get the blunt end of the stick.

00:05:02.980 Chris Hardwick was accused in a blog post that he never even was mentioned by name, I don't think.

00:05:10.060 I think it was an anonymous accusation in a blog post by one person,

00:05:14.380 and he was never even accused of doing anything criminal.

00:05:17.320 He was basically accused of being a bad boyfriend.

00:05:20.140 And there was no evidence.

00:05:22.180 There was nobody corroborating it.

00:05:24.440 In fact, a bunch of people came out in defense of Chris Hardwick, including women who knew him,

00:05:29.660 former girlfriends and current girlfriend and whatever.

00:05:32.600 And they came out and said, no, that's not the guy I know.

00:05:34.700 I don't believe any of that.

00:05:35.900 So, and yet, he still suffered consequences for that in his career and his reputation.

00:05:41.760 That's not fair.

00:05:43.420 Why should that have any weight?

00:05:44.840 Because one person writes a blog post, you know, detailing things allegedly from your private life,

00:05:52.320 and we're supposed to believe that?

00:05:53.900 It should have no weight whatsoever, right?

00:05:57.580 If it's one person versus another person, and everyone that's come out is on the side of the accused,

00:06:04.140 then that has no weight.

00:06:08.180 And then he says, you know, he expresses some sympathy for Louis C.K. and Roseanne,

00:06:13.140 who are his friends.

00:06:14.800 Is he wrong for having sympathy for them?

00:06:16.900 They're his friends.

00:06:18.000 What is he supposed to say?

00:06:19.660 Oh, yeah, they're my friends, but they're total scumbags.

00:06:21.800 I'm glad their lives are ruined.

00:06:23.220 I hope they die.

00:06:24.140 Is that what he's supposed to say?

00:06:25.180 I guess that's what he's supposed to say.

00:06:26.600 Is that what you would say about your friend?

00:06:28.260 If your friend did a bad thing and, you know, their career was ruined and their lives were in shatters because of it,

00:06:36.860 would you then come out in the media and jump on the dog pile?

00:06:41.400 No, if you would, then you're a terrible friend.

00:06:44.440 Feel sorry for your friends in that case.

00:06:46.040 So he's just being a good friend here.

00:06:47.680 The only part of this that could even be considered halfway controversial is where he says,

00:06:52.700 of course, he says, they lost everything in a day.

00:06:58.080 People will go, what about the victims?

00:06:59.480 You know what?

00:06:59.920 The victims didn't have to go through that.

00:07:01.520 Okay.

00:07:02.620 Again, is he wrong?

00:07:06.400 He's right that Roseanne and Louis C.K. did lose everything in a day.

00:07:10.520 I mean, they were, Roseanne had the number one show on TV. 0.95

00:07:14.720 She lost it.

00:07:15.460 I mean, she was having this resurgence in her career that was taken away from him.

00:07:19.460 Louis C.K. was this, you know, considered this comedic genius and he was award winning, critically acclaimed, popular.

00:07:27.260 I mean, he had everything.

00:07:28.560 He was popular and he had critical acclaim, which is really hard to do, especially in comedy.

00:07:33.640 And he had all of that and then all of that went away.

00:07:37.420 Now he's a disgrace and he has a punchline and he lost everything.

00:07:39.840 Now, whether or not you think that they deserve that, it is true that that happened to them.

00:07:44.860 And it's also true that if you're a friend of those people, I think you would have some sympathy for that.

00:07:50.960 And then his other claim is that, well, that's not what happened to the victims.

00:07:54.100 Okay.

00:07:54.500 Well, first of all, who was Roseanne's victim?

00:07:57.480 She wrote a mean tweet about Valerie Jarrett.

00:08:01.240 Is Valerie Jarrett a victim?

00:08:03.640 If that makes you a victim, then I am, then I myself am a huge victim because people write mean things about me online all the time.

00:08:11.400 But regardless, did Valerie Jarrett lose everything?

00:08:13.740 Was her whole life destroyed because Roseanne wrote a mean tweet about her?

00:08:17.120 No, I don't think so.

00:08:20.000 And then Louis C.K., he sexually harassed several women. 1.00

00:08:25.100 Apparently, he doesn't even deny it.

00:08:26.560 So, you know, we don't even have to say allegedly he did do it.

00:08:28.940 As far as I know, like, I don't like reading all the gruesome details of these things

00:08:33.060 because it's just, it's not, you know, I don't think I need to know it.

00:08:35.600 But from my understanding of the Louis C.K. situation is that he exposed himself and

00:08:40.680 pleasured himself in front of several women.

00:08:45.620 But as the story goes, as far as I know, he would ask them, is it okay if I expose myself?

00:08:55.760 And then they would say yes, and then he would do it.

00:08:59.180 But then now they're saying, well, you know, I said yes, but I thought he was joking.

00:09:03.720 I didn't know he'd actually do it.

00:09:04.600 And I wanted to leave the room.

00:09:06.440 I was, you know, it was very uncomfortable or he was like in the way of the doors, you

00:09:10.180 know, and, and, and regardless, it's obviously it's creepy and disgusting for Louis C.K.

00:09:18.140 That's just, that's even if you ask, that's just not a question that you ask some strange

00:09:23.700 woman or, you know, some acquaintance, you know, you just, it's just, it's, it is not an appropriate

00:09:29.620 question to ask, right?

00:09:33.680 But what Norm Macdonald is saying is, well, these women, yes, it was wrong what Louis C.K.

00:09:41.160 did.

00:09:41.820 Were their lives destroyed, though?

00:09:43.800 I mean, was the whole course of their life ruined because of this incident?

00:09:49.480 Are their lives left in ruins and tatters because of this, because of Louis C.K. exposing

00:09:56.140 himself?

00:09:56.420 Well, you could make the argument that no, probably not.

00:10:02.900 So that's all, you know, that, that was his only point.

00:10:05.680 I think it's a valid point.

00:10:07.100 It's not a crazy point.

00:10:09.140 Is it?

00:10:09.720 It's not crazy.

00:10:10.360 It's not insane.

00:10:11.500 It's valid.

00:10:13.160 And it does raise questions about proportionality.

00:10:17.920 You know, even when someone does something disgusting and wrong and then their whole life

00:10:21.560 is destroyed, like, is that proportionate?

00:10:23.460 And so that's just, it's a discussion that we can have.

00:10:25.520 Why can't we talk about that?

00:10:27.220 And here's the greater point I want to make.

00:10:29.300 You see here why it's impossible.

00:10:31.420 It's impossible to talk about anything in America anymore.

00:10:34.780 We can't have discussions.

00:10:36.520 We can't have debates.

00:10:38.400 Because if you commit the crime of giving a unique perspective in public, people will

00:10:43.280 seize hold of it and sift through it looking for the one or two most controversial sentences.

00:10:48.780 And then they'll divorce those sentences from their context and search desperately for the

00:10:54.260 most uncharitable possible interpretation to ruin you with it.

00:10:59.900 And there's no attempt to understand the actual point that you were trying to make.

00:11:03.760 No one, no attempt to understand what was said.

00:11:05.920 There's no engagement, no discourse.

00:11:08.420 Speech is treated like this game with arbitrary rules.

00:11:11.860 Whoever breaks the rules will be punished regardless of intent.

00:11:18.640 It's insane what we do now.

00:11:22.080 The way that we totally disregard intent is maybe the most remarkable aspect of this.

00:11:29.180 And it's because it happens all the time that somebody will say something and then the outrage

00:11:34.340 mob will take it and they will find the most outrageous possible interpretation.

00:11:39.420 And so with something like this, like when we're talking about sexual assault, sexual harassment,

00:11:45.280 the Me Too movement, anybody who tries to find a nuanced perspective or anyone who even hints

00:11:52.480 that possibly in some of these cases, the penalties have been disproportionate to the offense committed,

00:12:00.280 anyone who even begins to sort of make that point will be accused of defending sexual harassment

00:12:06.820 or being an apologist for rape, right?

00:12:11.280 Which is the most outrageous possible interpretation of what they actually said.

00:12:19.240 But then what happens is, so, you know, the outrage mob comes and they'll say,

00:12:25.400 we're offended because we think that you meant X, Y, Z, okay?

00:12:31.160 We think that you meant that it's okay to sexually assault and harass people.

00:12:36.420 That's how we took it.

00:12:38.420 And then the person will go, no, that's not what I meant.

00:12:41.240 That's not what I meant.

00:12:42.800 No, I'm totally, of course, I'm totally opposed to sexual assault and harassment.

00:12:47.380 I think what they did is terrible.

00:12:48.540 I'm just trying to raise another question so that we could talk about this.

00:12:52.320 But now that right there, that should end it.

00:12:58.080 That should be the end of the controversy.

00:12:59.960 That should be it.

00:13:00.800 Because he just told you what he meant.

00:13:03.660 You were wrong.

00:13:04.900 You misinterpreted it.

00:13:06.900 And so he's telling you what he actually meant.

00:13:09.880 And he knows what he meant.

00:13:11.680 He is the only authority over what he meant, not you, him.

00:13:15.440 He's the one who said it.

00:13:16.420 He's in his mind.

00:13:17.220 He knows what he meant.

00:13:18.120 He's telling you what he meant.

00:13:19.820 That should be it.

00:13:21.040 But there's once when someone says something and you interpret it in a way that makes the

00:13:30.120 comment offensive, and then he says to you, no, I didn't mean it in that offensive way.

00:13:36.100 I meant it in this way.

00:13:37.140 That should be it.

00:13:37.940 You have no basis now to continue being offended.

00:13:41.180 He has taken it from you.

00:13:42.600 If you continue being offended, it's because you want to be offended and you don't even care

00:13:46.740 what he said.

00:13:47.220 So you're a liar and you are disingenuous.

00:13:51.040 Um, because it just doesn't make any sense when someone clarifies what they meant.

00:13:55.960 It doesn't make any sense for you to go.

00:13:57.340 Yeah, well, I'm going to stick with my original interpretation of your words.

00:14:00.000 I don't care what you think you meant.

00:14:02.720 I'm going to go with what I think you meant because I know more about what you meant than

00:14:08.220 you know about what you meant.

00:14:09.560 That doesn't make any sense.

00:14:10.580 But as I said, it's all a game.

00:14:12.380 Nobody wants to actually talk about anything because everybody's just laying traps and claiming

00:14:17.500 trophies.

00:14:18.060 And that's it.

00:14:19.920 That's the way it works.

00:14:21.180 Here's how it works.

00:14:22.040 Every topic, every issue is A or B now.

00:14:25.420 That's the way it works in America.

00:14:26.580 It's A or B.

00:14:27.900 And so the mindless masses on both sides, that's how they see it.

00:14:32.300 They see it as an A or B thing.

00:14:34.680 Every issue, whatever the issue is, A or B.

00:14:37.040 Those are the, you know, if you're in the mindless masses on either side, you're looking

00:14:41.540 at it as you can have A position or B position and that's it.

00:14:45.400 That's all that's allowed.

00:14:49.720 But the real problem, and we have to understand this, okay, about the way this works.

00:14:56.400 For both sides, okay, they see their own position as the A position and the other side is the

00:15:04.520 B position.

00:15:05.720 And the B position is always going to be a caricature.

00:15:09.240 It's not a real position.

00:15:10.280 It's a caricature of a position.

00:15:15.600 But the real problem is that the A or B dynamic is applied to every issue, which means that

00:15:22.260 nobody is allowed to find something in between A and B.

00:15:26.700 Or nobody's allowed to go and, you know, take a little from column A, a little bit from

00:15:30.720 column B and say, you know, I can see, I can see what they mean on this side.

00:15:34.280 I can see what they mean on this.

00:15:35.140 I think they both are valid, but they're not allowed to do that.

00:15:37.360 And certainly nobody's allowed to come with a C position or a G position.

00:15:42.340 God forbid a Y or a Z position, you know, God forbid someone really legitimately comes 1.00

00:15:49.440 from left field and says something that's way outside of that paradigm completely.

00:15:56.100 If you do that, you're just going to be devoured.

00:16:00.060 Nobody's even going to begin to listen to you.

00:16:02.680 So we have here, what we have here is what I have been calling for a long time.

00:16:10.460 It is the death of nuance.

00:16:13.140 It is the death of subtlety.

00:16:15.580 It's the death of distinction.

00:16:19.240 It is, more to the point, it is the death of interesting ideas.

00:16:25.320 Because every position has to be something that you can summarize in one sentence.

00:16:34.020 And the other side, if they don't hear their sentence repeated back to them,

00:16:40.000 they'll just descend on you and rip you to shreds.

00:16:43.660 That's all.

00:16:44.720 That's what a discussion is supposed to be.

00:16:46.680 They, each side, they have their sentence.

00:16:49.040 They have their sentence, their position,

00:16:50.920 and they just want to hear their sentence said back to them.

00:16:54.940 And if they don't hear it, then, then you're in trouble.

00:17:00.880 Both sides do this, by the way.

00:17:02.560 It's not just a liberal thing.

00:17:03.820 I hate to tell you, this is not, this is not like liberals do this and,

00:17:09.240 but conservatives are intelligent and are always subtle and nuanced

00:17:13.560 and they're always looking for the interesting.

00:17:15.460 But no, that's not, maybe it used to be kind of how it goes.

00:17:18.780 That's not how it goes anymore.

00:17:20.920 Um, now for liberals, let's just take an example of how this works.

00:17:26.020 Um, let's use the example we've been using so far.

00:17:29.960 When you take an issue like Me Too,

00:17:32.760 the way they approach it is that everyone must take the position

00:17:38.200 that all accusations are true.

00:17:42.060 Every accused man is a scumbag who should die.

00:17:45.980 Whatever penalty he's suffering is fair.

00:17:48.680 You know, no matter how severe.

00:17:51.840 Um, every victim has been irreparably and profoundly harmed and traumatized.

00:17:58.640 Okay.

00:17:59.760 Um, and no consideration whatsoever should be given to the men innocent or not.

00:18:05.580 And especially if the man is guilty, you're not allowed to have any,

00:18:10.820 any sympathy at all for him.

00:18:13.900 None.

00:18:15.740 Um, that's the, that's their position.

00:18:18.480 You know, that I'm not, that's not a caricature of their position.

00:18:20.600 That is really their position.

00:18:21.880 Uh, as I said, that, you know, believe women. 0.86

00:18:26.820 That's the, that's their, that's not my slogan.

00:18:28.440 That's their slogan, which is an absolute statement.

00:18:31.980 Believe women.

00:18:32.520 If a woman says it, believe her. 1.00

00:18:33.880 That's really their position.

00:18:35.980 And it's for them.

00:18:37.060 It's the only acceptable.

00:18:39.120 Any differing position will be put into the B camp.

00:18:43.220 So that's a camp for them.

00:18:44.920 That's right.

00:18:45.840 If you say something different, you're in B camp.

00:18:48.220 And B for them is the position that sexual abuse is good.

00:18:52.940 And all women are liars. 1.00

00:18:55.100 Okay.

00:18:55.700 That for them is B position.

00:18:57.240 Now, here's the problem.

00:18:59.280 Nobody actually holds that position.

00:19:02.120 Nobody's saying that.

00:19:03.360 I've never heard anyone say that.

00:19:04.780 That is not a position that anyone holds.

00:19:08.600 That position doesn't exist in real life, but they have created it.

00:19:14.380 And anyone who, who fails to parrot their opinions back to them on this issue will be thrown into B camp.

00:19:21.980 So if you try to say, yeah, sexual harassment, sexual assault, terrible things.

00:19:25.900 We got to root those out.

00:19:27.260 We've got, um, however, you know, as soon as you start the, however, they won't even listen to the rest of your sentence.

00:19:34.780 They're throwing you into B camp.

00:19:37.040 If you say, yeah, there's a sexual abuse problem, but it's also true that women lie sometimes. 1.00

00:19:42.320 And so we have to account for, nope, you're going in B.

00:19:45.420 Doesn't matter.

00:19:46.320 Stop right there.

00:19:47.380 You're in B.

00:19:48.480 Or if you say, yeah, you know, these men, they've done a terrible thing, but, um,

00:19:51.780 not all forms of harassment are the same, are the same in terms of degree and severity.

00:19:56.740 And so maybe they don't all necessarily deserve to have their lives completely destroyed for it.

00:20:01.520 And maybe, nope, you're going in B.

00:20:03.700 Doesn't stop right there.

00:20:05.020 You're going in B.

00:20:06.340 I don't even want to hear the rest of it.

00:20:08.220 And that's the way it goes.

00:20:09.680 Um, now the right does this too.

00:20:12.860 And I know a lot of people listening to this and watching this right now, this is the part

00:20:17.520 you don't want to hear.

00:20:18.360 You've been really, you've been with me so far.

00:20:20.040 Now you don't want to hear the rest of this.

00:20:22.240 And if you're like, if you're thinking right now and you're in, and now you're getting upset

00:20:26.000 because I'm, well, then you're part of the problem.

00:20:29.180 Okay.

00:20:29.540 Um, because the right does do this and take it from me.

00:20:36.420 Okay.

00:20:37.620 Let's, let's take one example for many people on the right.

00:20:41.880 When it comes to Donald Trump, there are only two positions, their position.

00:20:47.500 The one that they take is that this is the A position for them.

00:20:51.600 It's that Donald Trump is a genius and a hero, and he is saving the world.

00:20:57.040 Okay.

00:20:57.560 Again, that is not a caricature.

00:20:59.540 Uh, that is an actual position, not only an actual, but that is the position that is

00:21:08.100 the kind of mainstream right-wing position.

00:21:12.980 Um, and, and, you know, this comparing Donald Trump to biblical heroes like King David.

00:21:21.000 Okay.

00:21:21.280 I didn't invent that.

00:21:22.700 That's what people actually say, comparing him to, I mean, really making him into this

00:21:29.120 messianic figure who saved America from the edge of destruction.

00:21:35.140 Okay.

00:21:35.660 That, and that is the A position.

00:21:37.400 That's the position you have to take.

00:21:38.720 And the, then there's the B position.

00:21:40.920 Okay.

00:21:41.320 And that's everything else.

00:21:42.200 And if you're in the B position, that means that you're a liberal and you hate America.

00:21:46.560 Okay.

00:21:47.640 Um, so if you, if you try to offer any criticism of Trump at all, in any situation, for any

00:21:57.860 reason, you're going to be thrown into B camp.

00:22:01.080 I know what I'm talking about.

00:22:02.340 This happens to me all the time.

00:22:03.420 I have been told so many times, if any time, I mean, any time I offer any criticism of

00:22:11.500 Trump and I say, you know, I think he's wrong on this one, or I think he should have done

00:22:16.080 this, but instead of doing that, or, you know, really, I think tweeting like a 12 year

00:22:20.980 old girl all the time is maybe not becoming for a president. 1.00

00:22:23.960 And, uh, maybe he should stop it.

00:22:26.180 If I, if I, anytime I say that, all of people say, well, you're a liberal.

00:22:31.040 What are you?

00:22:31.580 Some kind of lib, you libtard and you hate America. 1.00

00:22:35.320 This is what I'm told me, a liberal.

00:22:38.000 I wrote a book called the unholy Trinity about transgenderism, abortion, and gay marriage, 1.00

00:22:43.940 calling that the unholy Trinity.

00:22:45.800 That's a book that I wrote.

00:22:46.960 And I'm a liberal because I don't like Donald Trump's tweets.

00:22:50.320 This is the mentality that people actually have.

00:22:54.520 It's a, and it's not just a few people, a lot of people.

00:22:58.060 So distinctions, nuances, opposing ideas, these really are not accepted by either side

00:23:05.320 anymore.

00:23:05.900 They don't want to hear it.

00:23:07.800 I can't tell you how many times, I mean, it's a daily occurrence that I'll venture outside

00:23:13.000 of the accepted mainstream conservative paradigm on some random issue, whether it's Donald Trump

00:23:18.120 or anything else.

00:23:18.820 And then I'll have people tell me, I mean, this happens, like I said, it's a daily occurrence

00:23:22.360 that someone will say to me, you know, I've read your stuff for years.

00:23:25.940 I've been a fan for five years.

00:23:27.440 I'm done.

00:23:28.640 You're unfollowed.

00:23:29.600 I'm not following you anymore because of your position on this one single topic.

00:23:35.660 It happened to me just the other day when I, the other day I, and I've said this before,

00:23:39.780 but the other day I suggested that our reaction to the Anthem kneelers, okay, maybe is a little

00:23:50.460 bit overblown.

00:23:52.480 Like maybe it's time to move on.

00:23:55.760 And right now in the NFL, there are like one or two guys on any given Sunday, you're going

00:24:02.900 to have a thousand, over a thousand NFL players on fields across, you know, America and various

00:24:09.200 states.

00:24:10.660 And you might now find one, two, maybe three players out of a thousand who are kneeling.

00:24:17.820 So that to me is, it's not an issue.

00:24:20.360 Two or three guys out of a thousand, who cares?

00:24:23.820 Let, who cares what they're doing?

00:24:25.600 It doesn't, I mean, do we really need every single last person to, so you're going to,

00:24:31.100 we're going to boycott the NFL until every single last person associated has the correct

00:24:36.480 posture during the Anthem?

00:24:37.660 I just find that to be a, it's just, it's a, it's ridiculous.

00:24:42.360 Now I'm not, I'm not, I'm not agreeing with them.

00:24:45.280 It's not an agreement.

00:24:47.660 I'm, I'm, so there's a slight nuance.

00:24:49.700 It's, I agree.

00:24:50.800 I don't like the Anthem protests.

00:24:52.600 However, yet as soon as I tack that however on, that's when people, and I, just the other

00:24:57.880 day, people told me they're done following me because of that.

00:25:01.100 That if, if it's actually true that they've been following, so think about that.

00:25:07.040 I've been reading your stuff for five years.

00:25:10.200 I respect your opinion.

00:25:12.280 I've been with you.

00:25:13.720 You have ventured away from me on this one slight issue.

00:25:17.740 And so I'm done.

00:25:19.100 That mentality is so shockingly small-minded and narrow and ridiculous, but it's how people

00:25:30.880 function.

00:25:32.300 And this is why there can't be any meaningful discussion in America, because people on both

00:25:39.220 sides, they simply don't want to hear any divergent opinion at all.

00:25:44.500 Now, you know what's the worst thing about all this?

00:25:49.760 The worst thing is that it's so boring.

00:25:52.860 It makes our discussions in this country so helplessly, awfully boring, because nobody's

00:25:58.500 allowed to be interesting.

00:26:00.240 No one's allowed to make an interesting point.

00:26:02.140 No one's allowed to be challenging.

00:26:04.240 No one's allowed to come out of left field with something.

00:26:06.620 Nobody's allowed to introduce a thoughtful nuance to a discussion and therefore develop

00:26:12.240 the discussion a little bit.

00:26:13.700 Like with the anthem thing.

00:26:15.420 Yes, we've all heard for three years now.

00:26:17.180 We've heard the standard conservative stand for the anthem.

00:26:20.060 Yeah, I get it.

00:26:20.860 Fine.

00:26:21.200 I mean, how many times do we have to say that?

00:26:23.020 Can we develop the discussion and talk about something else related to it that's a little

00:26:27.600 bit more interesting?

00:26:29.220 Do we really have an insatiable appetite to hear our one sentence thought on this topic

00:26:35.080 repeated to us over and over again for three years?

00:26:37.700 Is that what we need?

00:26:41.840 But we're not, that's just, it's not allowed.

00:26:44.900 And the effect is the collective stupefying of America.

00:26:48.120 The people are, and the people who are leading the discussion, the people who have platforms,

00:26:55.080 you know, in this country, the people in the media, you know, they contribute to the

00:26:58.880 problem because they know that this is the dynamic.

00:27:02.340 And so they know they're not going to get away with a nuanced position.

00:27:04.980 They know they're not going to get away with challenging their own side.

00:27:08.440 And so what they do is they just, they, they, for every position, they think of the most,

00:27:12.760 of the most simple, simplified perspective, and they just keep repeating it over and over

00:27:19.040 and over and over and over again.

00:27:24.580 Why has this happened?

00:27:27.000 I mean, why has it gotten to this point?

00:27:28.340 Um, well, I think there are a lot of explanations.

00:27:31.280 Number one, just intellectually, people are intellectually lazy.

00:27:34.800 They don't, they don't want to apply their brain to anything.

00:27:38.100 Number two, I think people are, you know, it's, it's a little bit of a cowardice.

00:27:41.660 People don't want to be challenged.

00:27:43.160 They're afraid that if they allow their position, their opinion to be challenged,

00:27:47.720 that they may find out they're wrong about something.

00:27:50.800 And if they're wrong about this, then maybe they're wrong about that and that.

00:27:53.740 And then the whole house of cards comes tommeling down.

00:27:55.640 People are afraid of that.

00:27:56.360 So they don't want to hear it.

00:27:57.640 And number three, I also think, and this goes to the intellectual laziness.

00:28:00.120 So it's not really a third thing goes back to number one, but it, people don't, people

00:28:04.560 don't read, you know, um, we're so used to the, you know, we, we're so used to little

00:28:10.400 sound bites and having everything packaged for us in the most entertaining and simplified

00:28:13.860 way.

00:28:15.420 And, and people don't, you know, if, because people don't read whole books in, you know,

00:28:22.580 if you're in the habit of reading whole books, like actually in whole chapters and everything,

00:28:28.920 then you're going to have more patience for someone to express an idea that takes more

00:28:36.120 than one sentence to explain.

00:28:39.640 But most people don't read books, so they don't have the patience for that.

00:28:43.960 Maybe they don't have the ability anymore to understand an idea that takes more than one

00:28:49.280 sentence to explain.

00:28:50.020 And so that's the problem.

00:28:53.240 Now, two other quick points.

00:28:54.820 Um, people will say that I'm guilty of this, right?

00:29:00.080 And I don't deny it.

00:29:01.100 I'm not saying that I'm innocent that I'll, you know, whatever.

00:29:04.620 Maybe I'm a hundred percent guilty on, on, on, with all this stuff.

00:29:07.700 I mean, it doesn't mean I'm wrong.

00:29:08.920 Okay.

00:29:09.200 So you could, it doesn't matter.

00:29:10.320 It doesn't matter.

00:29:11.260 I'm not saying I'm innocent, but let me also just add.

00:29:14.340 That there are two types of black and white thinking.

00:29:18.900 Okay.

00:29:19.700 And I'm accused of being a black and white thinker all the time.

00:29:24.240 But there, there's the bad kind of black and white thinking. 0.89

00:29:27.140 And then there's the good kind.

00:29:29.040 Okay.

00:29:29.440 And maybe I'm guilty.

00:29:30.500 Maybe I do both.

00:29:31.380 Okay.

00:29:31.500 But what I've been talking about here is the bad type of black and white thinking. 1.00

00:29:37.000 The black and white thinking that does, is not interested in nuance, is not interested

00:29:41.320 in subtlety, is not interested in any kind of distinction whatsoever.

00:29:44.260 And which just wants to hear its own ideas, parroted back to it as simplified, as stupefied

00:29:50.920 as possible.

00:29:51.500 Okay.

00:29:51.620 So that's the bad kind of black and white thing. 0.98

00:29:53.580 But then there's another black and white type of thinking where you have firm fundamental

00:29:58.940 principles, which you do not compromise on and which you will not look for any gray area

00:30:05.460 on.

00:30:05.760 And then, and then, so for me, um, a fundamental principle is, uh, that human beings have worth

00:30:13.880 and dignity.

00:30:14.480 Okay.

00:30:15.000 That's a fundamental principle that I have.

00:30:16.820 And it's right.

00:30:17.540 I will, I will not accept I'm black and white. 1.00

00:30:19.620 I won't accept any gray area on that.

00:30:23.120 I think every human being who exists has worth and dignity, period.

00:30:26.400 Okay.

00:30:26.740 No gray area.

00:30:27.400 So on that, you can accuse me of black and white thinking, but then the interesting thing

00:30:32.500 is to take that black and white principle and apply it to figure out how it applies to

00:30:38.940 various different situations.

00:30:40.400 And so that's where you can have some really interesting discussions.

00:30:45.540 Now with something like abortion, I think it applies very simply.

00:30:48.420 Abortion is a terrible, evil, period, end of discussion.

00:30:50.940 Something like capital punishment.

00:30:52.540 Well, now here's an interesting way of thinking, because you can make an argument on either end.

00:30:56.460 You've got, you've got the firm fundamental principle.

00:30:59.140 Okay.

00:30:59.280 That that's black and white, no gray area.

00:31:01.100 But now you're injecting it into this very complicated subject where you can make an argument

00:31:07.200 that it, that it could lead you in either direction.

00:31:11.620 And so that's interesting.

00:31:13.300 Right.

00:31:13.880 So, so, so being black and white on principles that does not negate or interfere with nuanced

00:31:20.780 and interesting discussions.

00:31:22.340 In fact, I think, I think being black and white on principle is, is necessary to have nuanced

00:31:30.200 and interesting discussions.

00:31:32.860 Because that's part of the problem here is that people are very black and white on the 1.00

00:31:39.200 superficial talking point level.

00:31:41.380 Like on the surface level, people are black and white.

00:31:44.480 But when it comes to the principles underneath that, people have no idea what they believe.

00:31:48.940 They don't have firm principles.

00:31:51.040 All they have is the conclusion.

00:31:53.180 They have no idea what principles actually inform those conclusions.

00:31:58.000 So it's exactly reversed.

00:31:59.600 But when you're firm on your principles and you know what they are, and you're talking

00:32:05.320 to someone who's firm in their principles, that's when you can have super interesting

00:32:08.740 like with my family.

00:32:10.160 Okay.

00:32:10.360 You know, you, you should, um, you know, when I get together with my family, uh, we will

00:32:18.680 have the most knock down, drag out debates you can imagine.

00:32:21.760 Not literally knock down, drag, although it's come close to blows a few times.

00:32:24.880 Um, but we, you know, we just have really passionate debates.

00:32:29.060 Okay.

00:32:29.560 And yeah, there'll be screaming and shouting and everything, right?

00:32:32.640 It gets, it gets crazy.

00:32:34.440 Even though we agree on, we agree on almost everything when it comes to the, to the, to

00:32:40.000 the fundamental principles.

00:32:42.580 You know, we're all Christian.

00:32:44.080 We all believe in God.

00:32:44.900 We're all conservative.

00:32:46.000 You know, we're all super ultra conservative, all of us.

00:32:48.540 Yet we have these intense debates.

00:32:51.260 And I think those debates are possible because we agree.

00:32:54.400 We're talking the same language.

00:32:56.520 We agree on the principles so we can kind of get past that.

00:33:00.760 And then we can have super interesting discussions about how do we apply those principles to this

00:33:06.300 situation.

00:33:07.480 And I think that's an, that's such a fascinating conversation to have.

00:33:13.180 And that's why among conservatives, we should be able to have really interesting debates among

00:33:19.360 ourselves.

00:33:20.400 Um, because supposedly we agree on the principles.

00:33:23.300 And we should be able to have, now it's harder to have these nuanced discussions with someone

00:33:27.920 where you don't share any of the, any fundamental values whatsoever.

00:33:32.220 This, it's another thing that interferes with the, you know, the debate between, um, one of the

00:33:37.200 reasons why the debates between conservatives and liberals are, are, are so fruitless is that

00:33:40.940 we don't, we don't have any common ground.

00:33:42.300 We don't share the same language.

00:33:43.320 We don't have any of the same, uh, presuppositions or anything like that.

00:33:46.340 So there's, there's no basis, there's no ground, solid ground upon which to stage this conversation

00:33:52.300 so that every discussion ends up devolving back down into like, is there a God, right?

00:33:58.460 Um, but among conservatives, because we supposedly agree most of us on the fundamentals, we should be able to have really

00:34:07.180 interesting conversations, but, uh, and I think there was a time in conservative conservatism when, when that, when that, when that did happen.

00:34:15.800 And there was this really intense, edifying, um, mentally strengthening debate within conservatism on various issues.

00:34:28.280 That's not how it goes anymore because most people, even among conservatives, they just, they don't want to hear, they, they have their, a position, one sentence on every issue.

00:34:40.820 That's all they want to hear.

00:34:42.460 All they want to hear from you is that you agree with it.

00:34:49.000 All right.

00:34:53.320 Oh, well, I've been going on for a while now.

00:34:55.220 Um, and even this.

00:34:58.880 I mean, going on, like I've been talking for 35 minutes about the same topic.

00:35:05.220 People tell me all the time, like, what, you know, the videos are too long.

00:35:09.620 Why, why don't you talk about multiple topics in a video?

00:35:12.060 Like who wants to hear a 30 minute conversation about the same topic?

00:35:16.180 Maybe nobody wants to hear it.

00:35:17.560 I don't know.

00:35:18.040 But to me, that's, I think that's interesting.

00:35:20.920 We should be able to spend 30 minutes.

00:35:22.640 We should be able to spend three hours on just one topic, getting into all the,

00:35:27.660 nuances of it.

00:35:31.020 People don't want to hear that.

00:35:33.060 That's why all the, all the Facebook, you know, you see all these conservative Facebook stars.

00:35:38.180 And, uh, you know, they, they, they, they developed this huge following by putting out like two minute videos on, on some issue.

00:35:47.480 How could you possibly say anything interesting or worthwhile in two minutes?

00:35:52.320 It's not enough time yet.

00:35:53.960 People love it.

00:35:54.560 They just want it.

00:35:55.080 They want to hear the two minute, um, you know, a few sentences, two minutes, repeating their own ideas back to them.

00:36:00.500 So they can share it and say, amen.

00:36:02.280 Oh yeah.

00:36:03.540 That's yes.

00:36:04.320 You tell it like it is.

00:36:07.220 Wow.

00:36:08.620 That person didn't say anything.

00:36:09.900 What do you mean?

00:36:10.520 Wow.

00:36:10.920 They didn't say anything interesting.

00:36:14.120 Did they really say something that, that, that made you like think differently about this issue?

00:36:18.480 Did they really enlighten you?

00:36:21.540 Anyway, I'm just going to leave it at that.

00:36:24.140 Thanks for listening, everybody.

00:36:28.960 Um, thanks for watching.

00:36:31.120 Godspeed.

The Matt Walsh Show - September 13, 2018

Ep. 103 - Why It's Impossible To Have Fruitful Debates In Our Culture

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