Ep. 103 - Why It's Impossible To Have Fruitful Debates In Our Culture
Episode Stats
Words per Minute
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Summary
Norm Macdonald's appearance on the Tonight Show was canceled, amid outcry over comments he made that allegedly minimized sexual assault and racism. Is he wrong about what he said, or is he just wrong about everything else he said?
Transcript
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So, Norm Macdonald, the comedian Norm Macdonald is the latest to end up getting trampled by the pitchfork mob.
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This was going to happen with Norm Macdonald because he's known for being irreverent and politically incorrect and all that.
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So he's been, he has poked his head up above everybody else and made himself visible.
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And once you do that, then they're going to come after you and try to beat you back down.
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So, so his, his, his appearance on the Tonight Show was canceled a couple nights ago amid outcry over some comments that he made, comments that allegedly minimized sexual assault and racism.
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And supposedly these comments, I'll read the comments to you in a minute, but his comments were so terrible that they made some producers on the Tonight Show cry.
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And the Jimmy Fallon came into him before he was, before they were about to go on air and said, you know, my producers are in tears.
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Now I can't, these were comments that Norm Macdonald made to the Hollywood Reporter.
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He was giving an interview with the Hollywood Reporter.
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I can't imagine reading an interview in the Hollywood Reporter with a comedian and weeping.
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I mean, literally, I cannot think of a single thing a comedian in the Hollywood Reporter could say that would make me weep.
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And then, and then, you know, there've been a lot of hot takes in the media explaining why Norm Macdonald's comments were problematic and symptomatic and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
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So let me, I think of everything that he said in the interview, here are the two segments that have gotten all the attention and are supposedly controversial.
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He says, he says, I'm happy the Me Too movement has slowed down a little bit.
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Like that Chris Hardwick guy, I really thought he got the blunt end of the stick there.
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And then a little bit later on, he says, well, Louis C.K. and Roseanne are the two people I know.
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And Roseanne was so broken up that I got Louis to call her, even though Roseanne was very hard on Louis before that.
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But she was just so broken and just crying constantly.
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There are very few people that have gone through what they have, losing everything in a day.
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Of course, people will go, what about the victims?
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Now, let's just say first and foremost here that the outrage is ridiculous because he's not wrong about what he said, is he?
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It doesn't even matter if what you said is true.
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People will say, it doesn't matter if it's true.
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People might be hurt by the truth, so you shouldn't say it.
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It does matter whether if something is true, if it's a valid point, then there's no reason to be upset about it.
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Let's go through it again and try to find the wrongness because I didn't see it.
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He says, I'm happy the Me Too movement has slowed down a little bit.
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It used to be that you have a bunch of women accusing a guy, and then we would say, well, look, all these women, it doesn't make any sense to say that they're all lying.
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It's either the guy is lying or 12 or 15 women are lying.
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And it just doesn't make any sense to assume that all those women are lying and the guy's telling the truth.
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But then it became, and Norm is right about this, then it became, well, if one woman accuses a guy, then we automatically have to believe the woman.
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We cannot even consider the possibility that maybe she's the liar and he's telling the truth.
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And then that became the, and this is the mantra of the Me Too movement and of feminists, but I believe women.
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So I have to believe whatever a woman tells me because she's a woman?
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And then he says Chris Hardwick got the blunt end of the stick.
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Chris Hardwick was accused in a blog post that he never even was mentioned by name, I don't think.
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I think it was an anonymous accusation in a blog post by one person,
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and he was never even accused of doing anything criminal.
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He was basically accused of being a bad boyfriend.
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In fact, a bunch of people came out in defense of Chris Hardwick, including women who knew him,
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former girlfriends and current girlfriend and whatever.
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And they came out and said, no, that's not the guy I know.
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So, and yet, he still suffered consequences for that in his career and his reputation.
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Because one person writes a blog post, you know, detailing things allegedly from your private life,
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If it's one person versus another person, and everyone that's come out is on the side of the accused,
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And then he says, you know, he expresses some sympathy for Louis C.K. and Roseanne,
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Oh, yeah, they're my friends, but they're total scumbags.
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If your friend did a bad thing and, you know, their career was ruined and their lives were in shatters because of it,
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would you then come out in the media and jump on the dog pile?
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No, if you would, then you're a terrible friend.
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The only part of this that could even be considered halfway controversial is where he says,
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of course, he says, they lost everything in a day.
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He's right that Roseanne and Louis C.K. did lose everything in a day.
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I mean, they were, Roseanne had the number one show on TV.
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I mean, she was having this resurgence in her career that was taken away from him.
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Louis C.K. was this, you know, considered this comedic genius and he was award winning, critically acclaimed, popular.
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He was popular and he had critical acclaim, which is really hard to do, especially in comedy.
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And he had all of that and then all of that went away.
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Now he's a disgrace and he has a punchline and he lost everything.
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Now, whether or not you think that they deserve that, it is true that that happened to them.
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And it's also true that if you're a friend of those people, I think you would have some sympathy for that.
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And then his other claim is that, well, that's not what happened to the victims.
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If that makes you a victim, then I am, then I myself am a huge victim because people write mean things about me online all the time.
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But regardless, did Valerie Jarrett lose everything?
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Was her whole life destroyed because Roseanne wrote a mean tweet about her?
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And then Louis C.K., he sexually harassed several women.
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So, you know, we don't even have to say allegedly he did do it.
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As far as I know, like, I don't like reading all the gruesome details of these things
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because it's just, it's not, you know, I don't think I need to know it.
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But from my understanding of the Louis C.K. situation is that he exposed himself and
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But as the story goes, as far as I know, he would ask them, is it okay if I expose myself?
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And then they would say yes, and then he would do it.
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But then now they're saying, well, you know, I said yes, but I thought he was joking.
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I was, you know, it was very uncomfortable or he was like in the way of the doors, you
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know, and, and, and regardless, it's obviously it's creepy and disgusting for Louis C.K.
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That's just, that's even if you ask, that's just not a question that you ask some strange
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woman or, you know, some acquaintance, you know, you just, it's just, it's, it is not an appropriate
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But what Norm Macdonald is saying is, well, these women, yes, it was wrong what Louis C.K.
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I mean, was the whole course of their life ruined because of this incident?
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Are their lives left in ruins and tatters because of this, because of Louis C.K. exposing
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Well, you could make the argument that no, probably not.
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So that's all, you know, that, that was his only point.
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And it does raise questions about proportionality.
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You know, even when someone does something disgusting and wrong and then their whole life
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And so that's just, it's a discussion that we can have.
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It's impossible to talk about anything in America anymore.
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Because if you commit the crime of giving a unique perspective in public, people will
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seize hold of it and sift through it looking for the one or two most controversial sentences.
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And then they'll divorce those sentences from their context and search desperately for the
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most uncharitable possible interpretation to ruin you with it.
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And there's no attempt to understand the actual point that you were trying to make.
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No one, no attempt to understand what was said.
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Speech is treated like this game with arbitrary rules.
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Whoever breaks the rules will be punished regardless of intent.
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The way that we totally disregard intent is maybe the most remarkable aspect of this.
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And it's because it happens all the time that somebody will say something and then the outrage
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mob will take it and they will find the most outrageous possible interpretation.
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And so with something like this, like when we're talking about sexual assault, sexual harassment,
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the Me Too movement, anybody who tries to find a nuanced perspective or anyone who even hints
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that possibly in some of these cases, the penalties have been disproportionate to the offense committed,
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anyone who even begins to sort of make that point will be accused of defending sexual harassment
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Which is the most outrageous possible interpretation of what they actually said.
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But then what happens is, so, you know, the outrage mob comes and they'll say,
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we're offended because we think that you meant X, Y, Z, okay?
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We think that you meant that it's okay to sexually assault and harass people.
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And then the person will go, no, that's not what I meant.
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No, I'm totally, of course, I'm totally opposed to sexual assault and harassment.
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I'm just trying to raise another question so that we could talk about this.
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And so he's telling you what he actually meant.
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He is the only authority over what he meant, not you, him.
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But there's once when someone says something and you interpret it in a way that makes the
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comment offensive, and then he says to you, no, I didn't mean it in that offensive way.
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You have no basis now to continue being offended.
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If you continue being offended, it's because you want to be offended and you don't even care
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Um, because it just doesn't make any sense when someone clarifies what they meant.
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Yeah, well, I'm going to stick with my original interpretation of your words.
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I'm going to go with what I think you meant because I know more about what you meant than
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Nobody wants to actually talk about anything because everybody's just laying traps and claiming
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And so the mindless masses on both sides, that's how they see it.
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Those are the, you know, if you're in the mindless masses on either side, you're looking
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at it as you can have A position or B position and that's it.
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But the real problem, and we have to understand this, okay, about the way this works.
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For both sides, okay, they see their own position as the A position and the other side is the
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And the B position is always going to be a caricature.
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But the real problem is that the A or B dynamic is applied to every issue, which means that
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nobody is allowed to find something in between A and B.
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Or nobody's allowed to go and, you know, take a little from column A, a little bit from
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column B and say, you know, I can see, I can see what they mean on this side.
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I think they both are valid, but they're not allowed to do that.
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And certainly nobody's allowed to come with a C position or a G position.
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God forbid a Y or a Z position, you know, God forbid someone really legitimately comes
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from left field and says something that's way outside of that paradigm completely.
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If you do that, you're just going to be devoured.
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So we have here, what we have here is what I have been calling for a long time.
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It is, more to the point, it is the death of interesting ideas.
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Because every position has to be something that you can summarize in one sentence.
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And the other side, if they don't hear their sentence repeated back to them,
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they'll just descend on you and rip you to shreds.
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and they just want to hear their sentence said back to them.
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And if they don't hear it, then, then you're in trouble.
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I hate to tell you, this is not, this is not like liberals do this and,
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but conservatives are intelligent and are always subtle and nuanced
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and they're always looking for the interesting.
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But no, that's not, maybe it used to be kind of how it goes.
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Um, now for liberals, let's just take an example of how this works.
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Um, let's use the example we've been using so far.
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the way they approach it is that everyone must take the position
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Um, every victim has been irreparably and profoundly harmed and traumatized.
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Um, and no consideration whatsoever should be given to the men innocent or not.
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And especially if the man is guilty, you're not allowed to have any,
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You know, that I'm not, that's not a caricature of their position.
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That's the, that's their, that's not my slogan.
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That's their slogan, which is an absolute statement.
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Any differing position will be put into the B camp.
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If you say something different, you're in B camp.
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And B for them is the position that sexual abuse is good.
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That position doesn't exist in real life, but they have created it.
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And anyone who, who fails to parrot their opinions back to them on this issue will be thrown into B camp.
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So if you try to say, yeah, sexual harassment, sexual assault, terrible things.
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We've got, um, however, you know, as soon as you start the, however, they won't even listen to the rest of your sentence.
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If you say, yeah, there's a sexual abuse problem, but it's also true that women lie sometimes.
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And so we have to account for, nope, you're going in B.
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Or if you say, yeah, you know, these men, they've done a terrible thing, but, um,
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not all forms of harassment are the same, are the same in terms of degree and severity.
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And so maybe they don't all necessarily deserve to have their lives completely destroyed for it.
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And I know a lot of people listening to this and watching this right now, this is the part
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You've been really, you've been with me so far.
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And if you're like, if you're thinking right now and you're in, and now you're getting upset
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because I'm, well, then you're part of the problem.
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Um, because the right does do this and take it from me.
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Let's, let's take one example for many people on the right.
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When it comes to Donald Trump, there are only two positions, their position.
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The one that they take is that this is the A position for them.
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It's that Donald Trump is a genius and a hero, and he is saving the world.
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Uh, that is an actual position, not only an actual, but that is the position that is
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Um, and, and, you know, this comparing Donald Trump to biblical heroes like King David.
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That's what people actually say, comparing him to, I mean, really making him into this
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messianic figure who saved America from the edge of destruction.
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And if you're in the B position, that means that you're a liberal and you hate America.
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Um, so if you, if you try to offer any criticism of Trump at all, in any situation, for any
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I have been told so many times, if any time, I mean, any time I offer any criticism of
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Trump and I say, you know, I think he's wrong on this one, or I think he should have done
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this, but instead of doing that, or, you know, really, I think tweeting like a 12 year
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old girl all the time is maybe not becoming for a president.
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If I, if I, anytime I say that, all of people say, well, you're a liberal.
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Some kind of lib, you libtard and you hate America.
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I wrote a book called the unholy Trinity about transgenderism, abortion, and gay marriage,
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And I'm a liberal because I don't like Donald Trump's tweets.
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This is the mentality that people actually have.
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It's a, and it's not just a few people, a lot of people.
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So distinctions, nuances, opposing ideas, these really are not accepted by either side
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I can't tell you how many times, I mean, it's a daily occurrence that I'll venture outside
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of the accepted mainstream conservative paradigm on some random issue, whether it's Donald Trump
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And then I'll have people tell me, I mean, this happens, like I said, it's a daily occurrence
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that someone will say to me, you know, I've read your stuff for years.
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I'm not following you anymore because of your position on this one single topic.
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It happened to me just the other day when I, the other day I, and I've said this before,
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but the other day I suggested that our reaction to the Anthem kneelers, okay, maybe is a little
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And right now in the NFL, there are like one or two guys on any given Sunday, you're going
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to have a thousand, over a thousand NFL players on fields across, you know, America and various
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And you might now find one, two, maybe three players out of a thousand who are kneeling.
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Two or three guys out of a thousand, who cares?
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It doesn't, I mean, do we really need every single last person to, so you're going to,
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we're going to boycott the NFL until every single last person associated has the correct
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I just find that to be a, it's just, it's a, it's ridiculous.
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Now I'm not, I'm not, I'm not agreeing with them.
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However, yet as soon as I tack that however on, that's when people, and I, just the other
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day, people told me they're done following me because of that.
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That if, if it's actually true that they've been following, so think about that.
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You have ventured away from me on this one slight issue.
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That mentality is so shockingly small-minded and narrow and ridiculous, but it's how people
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And this is why there can't be any meaningful discussion in America, because people on both
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sides, they simply don't want to hear any divergent opinion at all.
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Now, you know what's the worst thing about all this?
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It makes our discussions in this country so helplessly, awfully boring, because nobody's
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No one's allowed to come out of left field with something.
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Nobody's allowed to introduce a thoughtful nuance to a discussion and therefore develop
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We've heard the standard conservative stand for the anthem.
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Can we develop the discussion and talk about something else related to it that's a little
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Do we really have an insatiable appetite to hear our one sentence thought on this topic
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repeated to us over and over again for three years?
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And the effect is the collective stupefying of America.
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The people are, and the people who are leading the discussion, the people who have platforms,
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you know, in this country, the people in the media, you know, they contribute to the
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problem because they know that this is the dynamic.
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And so they know they're not going to get away with a nuanced position.
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They know they're not going to get away with challenging their own side.
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And so what they do is they just, they, they, for every position, they think of the most,
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of the most simple, simplified perspective, and they just keep repeating it over and over
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Um, well, I think there are a lot of explanations.
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Number one, just intellectually, people are intellectually lazy.
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They don't, they don't want to apply their brain to anything.
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Number two, I think people are, you know, it's, it's a little bit of a cowardice.
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They're afraid that if they allow their position, their opinion to be challenged,
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that they may find out they're wrong about something.
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And if they're wrong about this, then maybe they're wrong about that and that.
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And then the whole house of cards comes tommeling down.
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And number three, I also think, and this goes to the intellectual laziness.
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So it's not really a third thing goes back to number one, but it, people don't, people
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don't read, you know, um, we're so used to the, you know, we, we're so used to little
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sound bites and having everything packaged for us in the most entertaining and simplified
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And, and people don't, you know, if, because people don't read whole books in, you know,
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if you're in the habit of reading whole books, like actually in whole chapters and everything,
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then you're going to have more patience for someone to express an idea that takes more
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But most people don't read books, so they don't have the patience for that.
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Maybe they don't have the ability anymore to understand an idea that takes more than one
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Um, people will say that I'm guilty of this, right?
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I'm not saying that I'm innocent that I'll, you know, whatever.
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Maybe I'm a hundred percent guilty on, on, on, with all this stuff.
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I'm not saying I'm innocent, but let me also just add.
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That there are two types of black and white thinking.
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And I'm accused of being a black and white thinker all the time.
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But there, there's the bad kind of black and white thinking.
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But what I've been talking about here is the bad type of black and white thinking.
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The black and white thinking that does, is not interested in nuance, is not interested
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in subtlety, is not interested in any kind of distinction whatsoever.
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And which just wants to hear its own ideas, parroted back to it as simplified, as stupefied
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So that's the bad kind of black and white thing.
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But then there's another black and white type of thinking where you have firm fundamental
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principles, which you do not compromise on and which you will not look for any gray area
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And then, and then, so for me, um, a fundamental principle is, uh, that human beings have worth
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I think every human being who exists has worth and dignity, period.
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So on that, you can accuse me of black and white thinking, but then the interesting thing
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is to take that black and white principle and apply it to figure out how it applies to
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And so that's where you can have some really interesting discussions.
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Now with something like abortion, I think it applies very simply.
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Abortion is a terrible, evil, period, end of discussion.
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Well, now here's an interesting way of thinking, because you can make an argument on either end.
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You've got, you've got the firm fundamental principle.
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But now you're injecting it into this very complicated subject where you can make an argument
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that it, that it could lead you in either direction.
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So, so, so being black and white on principles that does not negate or interfere with nuanced
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In fact, I think, I think being black and white on principle is, is necessary to have nuanced
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Because that's part of the problem here is that people are very black and white on the
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Like on the surface level, people are black and white.
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But when it comes to the principles underneath that, people have no idea what they believe.
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They have no idea what principles actually inform those conclusions.
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But when you're firm on your principles and you know what they are, and you're talking
00:32:05.320
to someone who's firm in their principles, that's when you can have super interesting
00:32:10.360
You know, you, you should, um, you know, when I get together with my family, uh, we will
00:32:18.680
have the most knock down, drag out debates you can imagine.
00:32:21.760
Not literally knock down, drag, although it's come close to blows a few times.
00:32:24.880
Um, but we, you know, we just have really passionate debates.
00:32:29.560
And yeah, there'll be screaming and shouting and everything, right?
00:32:34.440
Even though we agree on, we agree on almost everything when it comes to the, to the, to
00:32:46.000
You know, we're all super ultra conservative, all of us.
00:32:51.260
And I think those debates are possible because we agree.
00:32:56.520
We agree on the principles so we can kind of get past that.
00:33:00.760
And then we can have super interesting discussions about how do we apply those principles to this
00:33:07.480
And I think that's an, that's such a fascinating conversation to have.
00:33:13.180
And that's why among conservatives, we should be able to have really interesting debates among
00:33:20.400
Um, because supposedly we agree on the principles.
00:33:23.300
And we should be able to have, now it's harder to have these nuanced discussions with someone
00:33:27.920
where you don't share any of the, any fundamental values whatsoever.
00:33:32.220
This, it's another thing that interferes with the, you know, the debate between, um, one of the
00:33:37.200
reasons why the debates between conservatives and liberals are, are, are so fruitless is that
00:33:43.320
We don't have any of the same, uh, presuppositions or anything like that.
00:33:46.340
So there's, there's no basis, there's no ground, solid ground upon which to stage this conversation
00:33:52.300
so that every discussion ends up devolving back down into like, is there a God, right?
00:33:58.460
Um, but among conservatives, because we supposedly agree most of us on the fundamentals, we should be able to have really
00:34:07.180
interesting conversations, but, uh, and I think there was a time in conservative conservatism when, when that, when that, when that did happen.
00:34:15.800
And there was this really intense, edifying, um, mentally strengthening debate within conservatism on various issues.
00:34:28.280
That's not how it goes anymore because most people, even among conservatives, they just, they don't want to hear, they, they have their, a position, one sentence on every issue.
00:34:42.460
All they want to hear from you is that you agree with it.
00:34:58.880
I mean, going on, like I've been talking for 35 minutes about the same topic.
00:35:05.220
People tell me all the time, like, what, you know, the videos are too long.
00:35:09.620
Why, why don't you talk about multiple topics in a video?
00:35:12.060
Like who wants to hear a 30 minute conversation about the same topic?
00:35:22.640
We should be able to spend three hours on just one topic, getting into all the,
00:35:33.060
That's why all the, all the Facebook, you know, you see all these conservative Facebook stars.
00:35:38.180
And, uh, you know, they, they, they, they developed this huge following by putting out like two minute videos on, on some issue.
00:35:47.480
How could you possibly say anything interesting or worthwhile in two minutes?
00:35:55.080
They want to hear the two minute, um, you know, a few sentences, two minutes, repeating their own ideas back to them.
00:36:14.120
Did they really say something that, that, that made you like think differently about this issue?