Ep. 1554 - “Conversion Therapy” Bans Are An Outrageous Attack On Free Speech
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 8 minutes
Words per Minute
166.49518
Summary
Should counselors and therapists have the right to help their patients overcome gender confusion and same-sex attraction? Or should that practice be banned by force of law, as it has been in dozens of states? Also, an explosive moment on Capitol Hill when a Republican lawmaker correctly genders the trans congresswoman Sarah McBride. And Disney is already trying to mitigate the damage ahead of Snow White s premiere this weekend.
Transcript
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Today on the Matt Wall Show, the Supreme Court is going to take up the issue of so-called
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conversion therapy. Should counselors and therapists have the right to help their patients
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overcome gender confusion and same-sex attraction? Or should that practice be banned by force of law
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as it has been in dozens of states? We'll talk about it. Also, an explosive moment on Capitol
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Hill when a Republican lawmaker correctly genders the trans congressman Sarah McBride.
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And Disney is already trying to mitigate the damage ahead of Snow White's premiere this weekend.
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A new clip from the movie shows just how bad this thing is going to be, and it's pretty hilarious.
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We'll talk about all that and much more today on the Matt Wall Show.
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There are few weapons in politics that are more effective than mass disorientation. If you can
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confuse people about obvious truths, then they become much easier to control. This is a familiar
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tactic to most living Americans at this point. We are, after all, the first generation in the history of the
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world to grapple with the absurdity that men can change their gender at will. But there's really a
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whole art form to mass disorientation. It's not just about spreading big lies. It also involves
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confusing people at every possible opportunity. And we're confronted with deceptions like this all
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the time. Media outlets and purported experts will repeatedly tell us to assume something is true or to
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accept some new framework, even when it's clearly false. And this can continue for decades without
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interruption or pushback from basically anyone. Consider, for example, the topic of so-called
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conversion therapy, which the Supreme Court has just announced it's going to address in a few months. This
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is a case that could very well end up being really the single most important free speech case of our
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generation. And we'll get into that. We'll talk about the specifics of the case. But before we do that, it's
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important to recognize that conversion therapy, quote unquote, is a term that's been widely adopted by
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every mainstream institution in the country. You can look through newspapers and media outlets going
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back decades, and you'll find tens of thousands of articles and news segments using this term as if
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it means something. And in particular, we've been told that it means something very bad. You know, it's
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like using some sort of coercive tactic to force a homosexual patient to become straight or to convince a
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trans-identifying individual that, in fact, he's not really transgender. Without exception, you're
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commanded to think of these alleged conversions, quote unquote, as acts of unspeakable evil. As of
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today, for instance, YouTube places a disclaimer written by the far-left group The Trevor Project
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underneath every video discussing the topic of conversion therapy. I mean, they'll probably append
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this disclaimer to this episode too. So if you're watching this on YouTube, you could probably see the
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disclaimer below me as I'm saying this. And the disclaimer reads, quote, conversion therapy refers to a range of
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dangerous and discredited practices aimed at changing one's sexual orientation or gender identity or
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expression. Well, that sounds ominous. Dangerous. Conversion therapy, according to The Trevor Project in
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Silicon Valley, isn't simply a bad idea. It is dangerous. It's like playing with downed power lines.
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You know, you could lose your life because of conversion therapy. And indeed, the name conversion therapy is
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intended to bring images like that to mind. You're supposed to picture, you know, horrifying scenes of
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people strapped to gurneys and given electric shocks or lobotomies. But amid all this discussion about how
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horrible conversion therapy allegedly is, the one thing you're not supposed to do is pause for a second
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and realize that conversion therapy, at least as it's described by the left, isn't a real thing.
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Okay, the leftist conception of so-called conversion therapy is a fantasy. It's like Bigfoot or the
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boogeyman. It is a myth intended to scare people and disorient them. By endlessly warning of the dangers
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of conversion therapy, the left has successfully reframed the debate so that most people just go
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along with the general concept and assume that it's true, but it's not. Now, for one thing,
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conversion therapy, when applied to gender identity, is an entirely incoherent concept.
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To be very clear, they call it conversion therapy when a counselor or therapist doesn't assist or
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affirm the attempted conversion of a boy to a girl or vice versa. Counseling that helps a boy accept
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himself for who he is or a girl for who she is is considered conversion therapy, even though it is
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the opposite of conversion therapy. In fact, what they call gender affirmation is actually conversion
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therapy, and what they call conversion therapy is actually gender affirmation. They have completely
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inverted the meaning of the word conversion so that trying to change someone is affirmation,
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and trying to help them accept themselves for who they are is conversion. Now, there's arguably a
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better case for calling Christian counseling around same-sex attraction conversion therapy in a
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sense. The counselor would be trying to help a person overcome their same-sex attraction,
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thereby helping them convert from gay to straight, if that's how you want to put it. But if that's the
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framing, then, well, all therapy is a form of conversion therapy. You don't even need the word
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conversion in front of therapy. Therapy implies conversion. All therapy aims to convert patients
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from one state to another, ideally from a less functional state to a more functional one. A depressed
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person might go to the therapist in order to be converted into a happy person. A schizophrenic might go to
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the therapist in order to be converted to a patient who doesn't hear voices, and so on. So, at worst,
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we have with conversion therapy an incoherent term. At best, it's redundant. And that's precisely the
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reason that conversion therapy has become a rallying cry for the left. They know that they can't come out
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and admit that they want to ban speech under the First Amendment, but when they cloak their speech bans by
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claiming that they're really banning conversion therapy, a lot of people fall for it. In fact,
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you know, I'm guessing that if you did a poll of the average Republican voter and asked them how they
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feel about conversion therapy, a large number of them would insist that it's an evil thing and they
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don't support it. The goal here, of course, is to force mental health professionals to baptize
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as many young people as possible into the LGBT religion. And the easiest way of doing that
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is to ban these mental health professionals from saying anything that might steer young people away
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from that path. And that's why nearly two dozen states have outlawed so-called conversion therapy.
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Several other states ban the use of government funding for the practice. If a young boy comes
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into a psychologist's office and says that he's really a girl, then in many cases, it would be
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against the law for the psychologist to disagree. The psychologist is legally barred from telling the
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boy that he is in fact, actually a boy. This is among other things, a flagrant violation of the
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first amendment, both because it restricts the freedom of speech and because it restricts the
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freedom of the free exercise of religion. The government is telling counselors who are Christian
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in many cases that they can't say certain words or communicate certain ideas to their patients. That
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is if that's not a violation of the first amendment, then nothing is. And the counselor's clients who
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are also often Christian are being told that they cannot seek this type of care. A grown adult with
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same-sex attraction is under these laws prohibited from seeking care to overcome that attraction.
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The law is saying that the same-sex attracted person who wants to be straight is not allowed to want
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that. This is a position that the left has staked out, even though it obviously contradicts their
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supposed commitment to keeping the government out of the doctor's office, how quickly that principle
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goes out the window when there's free speech to ban. These are, keep in mind, these are the people
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who also say that if a parent wants to get sex change treatments for their child, it's none of our
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business. Remember, that was the case that Chris Hayes made to Bill Maher a couple of weeks ago.
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None of our business. Stay out of their business. Whatever the parents want to do.
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Okay, well, what if a parent wants to get treatment for a child to help them overcome
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same-sex attraction? Isn't that none of our business? Well, suddenly all of that it's none
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of our business stuff disappears. Suddenly it is very much Chris Hayes' business. Funny how that works.
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After many years, as I mentioned, bans on so-called conversion therapy are finally heading to the Supreme
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Court. On Monday, the court agreed to hear the case of Kaylee Childs, a Christian who's also a licensed
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therapist, and she is banned under Colorado law from telling patients that there's no way to change
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their gender. She's also banned from counseling them against a homosexual lifestyle. If Childs wins the
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case, then dozens of state-level bans on so-called conversion therapy could be struck down immediately.
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This morning, a new Supreme Court case is moving forward that could have implications for LGBTQ
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plus people all across the country. Yesterday, the justices agreed to take up a challenge to a
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Colorado law that bans so-called conversion therapy. This is therapy aimed at young people who are
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questioning their sexual orientation or gender identity. The practice is highly controversial and
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unproven. It pushes gay, lesbian, and bisexual minors to change their sexual orientation.
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Therapy also tries to get trans children to identify as the gender they were assigned at birth.
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This challenge to Colorado's law comes after a Christian therapist appealed to the Supreme Court
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arguing that the ban violates her freedom of speech. Colorado officials say the law is meant to regulate
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conduct, not speech. Both a federal judge and a Denver-based appeals court ruled in favor of the state.
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Highly controversial and unproven. But, you know, giving a 13-year-old boy chemical castration
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drugs to turn him into a girl, that is proven somehow. Now, the core legal issue, as you heard,
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is whether or not bans on conversion therapy constitute bans on speech or whether they constitute
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bans on conduct. And the various federal appeals courts are split on this issue somehow. Now,
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the Supreme Court is set to resolve this split among the lower courts. Just to dissect that a little
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bit more, because it really is incredible. Democrats are arguing in court that it does
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not violate the First Amendment for the government to punish therapists who say certain things to
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their patients. They're arguing that therapy sessions are really a form of conduct, like a
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surgical procedure, for example. And therefore, they can be regulated extensively by the government.
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As lawyers for the state of Colorado put it, quote,
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A professional's treatment of her patients and clients is fundamentally different,
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for First Amendment purposes, from laypersons' interactions with each other.
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Therefore, they want the Supreme Court to uphold Colorado's law, which defines conversion therapy
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Any practice or treatment by a licensed physician specializing in the practice of psychiatry
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that attempts or purports to change an individual's sexual orientation or gender identity.
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Efforts to change behaviors or gender expressions or to eliminate or reduce sexual or romantic attraction
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or feelings towards individuals of the same sex. Now, what's left unexplained is how exactly speech
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can become conduct simply because of the job of the person saying it. That doesn't seem clear,
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nor is it clear how the law permits the treatment of detransitioners. These are people who often
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want a therapist's assistance as they reject their own assumed gender identity, the false one,
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and they try to embrace their actual identity. And under the terms of the law, that's illegal.
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It's illegal. You're not allowed to give any treatment to detransitioners.
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These are the kinds of problems you run into when you start regulating speech and pretending that
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it's conduct. Now, fortunately, there are signs that this particular challenge will be successful.
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The Supreme Court recently turned away a similar challenge to a ban on conversion therapy,
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but they're taking this case. And the plaintiff that is represented in this case by the group
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Alliance Defending Freedom, which famously defended the Colorado baker who didn't want to
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bake a wedding cake for a gay couple. They also defended a web designer who didn't want to make a
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website celebrating gay marriages. Alliance Defending Freedom won both of those cases. So they have a
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very long and successful track record of affirming the right of free expression. But the clearest sign
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that Alliance Defending Freedom is going to win this case is that the left's fundamental position,
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when you follow it to its logical conclusion, simply does not make any sense.
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Okay? So think about this. They say that sexual orientation is immutable and unchangeable,
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which is why they claim that conversion therapy can't possibly work. But at the same time,
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they also say that sex is very mutable and very changeable. Putting it mildly, that does not compute.
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How can it be that a man might become a woman, but a gay person can't possibly become a straight person?
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How in the hell is one a matter of self-identity and the other isn't?
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And on top of that, to change your sex is to change your sexual orientation. If it is possible
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to change your sex, then it must be possible to change your sexual orientation. This is the logical
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problem they can't escape. If a straight man becomes a woman, and if he really is a woman, as they say,
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then he has not only gone from man to woman, but he has gone from straight to lesbian. He's gone from
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straight to gay. If sexual orientation is immutable, and if sex is mutable, it would mean that every
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heterosexual man who transitions must transition into a heterosexual woman, which is to say he must now
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be attracted to men. But that's not how it usually works most of the time. Usually by his own claim,
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he goes from a straight man attracted to women to a lesbian woman attracted to women.
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This is what quote unquote trans women say about themselves. They themselves are claiming that their
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sexual orientation changed. Now, explaining all this should not be necessary. It's obvious to everybody
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when you spell it out. And of course, that's why they come up with the term conversion therapy in the
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first place. The entire purpose of inventing the term is to obfuscate as much as possible so that
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the issue is so muddled that no one can follow the logic anymore. It is yet another tool of mass
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disorientation created by activists for their own political ends. But in just a few months, these
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activists will have to take their case to the Supreme Court. They will have to convince the justices that
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a ban on speech isn't really a ban on speech. It's the kind of self-defeating argument that gender
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activists have successfully relied on for years because no one's ever challenged it. But that's
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changing now. There's a very real chance that the LGBT club is about to lose one of its most important
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tools for indoctrinating the youth if the decision goes the way we think it will. And for the benefit
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of millions of children seeking mental health services, as well as anyone who values the First
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Amendment in this country, that decision can't come soon enough. Now let's get to our five headlines.
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So this was a fun moment yesterday, a congressional hearing. Representative Keith Self is recognizing
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Sarah McBride, the trans congressman, but another representative, Bill Keating, does not like how
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Self introduces McBride, and that leads to this rather hilarious exchange. Let's listen to it.
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I now recognize the representative from Delaware, Mr. McBride.
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Thank you, Madam Chair. Ranking Member Keating, also wonderful.
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Mr. Chairman, could you repeat your introduction again, please?
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Yes, it's a, it's a, we have set the standard on the floor of the House, and I'm simply.
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Would you repeat what you just said when you introduced a duly elected representative from the United States of America, please?
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I will. The representative from Delaware, Mr. McBride.
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I mean, I've come to know you a little bit, but this is not decent.
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You will not continue it with me unless you introduce a duly elected representative the right way.
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I don't think I've ever heard someone use that phrase in real life, non-sarcastically, so that was a lot of fun.
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I was kind of expecting him to drop maybe a, why I never, next.
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That would have been, that would have been great.
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Anyway, representative self is quite obviously in the right here.
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Bill Keating is humiliating himself in an attempt to virtue signal.
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He can see himself however he wants to see himself.
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He can say whatever he wants to say about himself.
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But he cannot force other people to play along or force other people to say the words that he wants them to say.
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But what I really want to highlight here is the progress, the progress that we've seen.
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Because five years ago, this moment would have been pretty unimaginable.
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Five years ago, almost every elected Republican in national office would have respected the pronouns.
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And they were respecting the pronouns five years ago.
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Now, there wasn't a trans congressman back then, but they were respected pronouns.
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And now we have Republicans referring to this man as a man during hearings.
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And, of course, there's been the Republican backlash against McBride using the women's room.
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So just altogether, his reception by Republicans has been quite different from what it would have been five years ago.
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Now, the Democrats, on the other hand, have not changed.
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Democrats react the same way to this sort of thing as they would have five years ago.
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They seem basically prepared to ride the trans train all the way over the cliff until it splatters on the rocks down below.
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I mean, they're going to ride this thing to the end.
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And the trans agenda has almost single-handedly destroyed the Democrat Party.
00:21:40.540
If I were a Democrat, I would be far more ticked off at the McBrides of the world than at Republicans.
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Because they're the ones who have driven my party into total irrelevance.
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All for the sake of this tiny fraction of the population.
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That our whole political operation, our whole agenda has been completely destroyed by these trans activists.
00:22:13.140
They have almost single-handedly ruined everything if you're a Democrat.
00:22:21.940
And I'm sure many Democrats do feel that way, but they can't say it.
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They lack the backbone to extricate themselves from this madness.
00:22:40.100
So here's some good news from the Texarkana Gazette.
00:22:45.220
The Texas Senate is poised to pass legislation requiring public school classrooms to display the Ten Commandments,
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one of several Republican-led efforts, to blend religious concepts with education.
00:22:54.540
Senate Bill 10 instructs elementary and secondary school classrooms to conspicuously display a 16-inch by 20-inch poster
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or framed copy of the Ten Commandments in type large enough to be legible for a person with average vision from anywhere in the classroom.
00:23:14.420
It won't surprise you to learn that—and this is—there have been a few states recently that have passed laws like this.
00:23:20.960
It won't surprise you to learn that I'm very much a fan of this.
00:23:24.260
I think the Ten Commandments should be in every school, and there are multiple arguments for it.
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And the first, I think, is the most obvious, which is that the Ten Commandments have incredibly indispensable historical significance.
00:23:45.580
They are on a very, very short list for the most influential and important things ever put to paper or to stone and then papyrus, I suppose.
00:23:56.700
And even if you're a secularist or some other, you know, non-Abrahamic religion, and you—so, you know, you don't believe the Ten Commandments were given to us by God, and you don't think they were ever put to stone.
00:24:08.540
God did not pass them down, or there is no God, right?
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Even if you think, well, you're wrong, but if you think that, even so, on a historical level, that would still make them one of the most influential and important documents ever written.
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A child who makes it through 13 years of K-12 education and cannot recite the Ten Commandments from memory in order does not have even basic historical literacy.
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And yet, how many high school graduates who just walked across—they're going to walk across the stage, you know, in May or June this year.
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How many of them, if you ask them to name the Ten Commandments, could name them?
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Just on a—again, a basic literacy level, that is a disgrace.
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A disgrace for the education system and the teachers specifically, not for the kids who were not taught this stuff.
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But beyond the historical significance, I go back to what we talked about yesterday, which is that our country is built on and foundationally constructed on not secularism, but Christian faith.
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Our education system should actually reflect that fact.
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And I don't mean that every child should be required to profess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior or they'll fail out of school.
00:25:46.380
Don't tempt me with a proposal like that, but that's not what I'm saying.
00:25:50.020
I'm just saying that this is the foundational identity of our country.
00:25:55.120
And our education system, if we're going to have a public education system, needs to reflect some kind of national identity.
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Public education system means national education system, which means it will reflect and be based on and around our national identity.
00:26:11.080
The left wants our national identity to be left-wing secular.
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You know, they want a left-wing secular national identity, which is why they want a left-wing secular public education system, national education system.
00:26:29.800
So the point is that this is not a choice between having an education system that is rooted in the Christian moral tradition or an education system that's just neutral.
00:26:50.180
Okay, the education system is going to be rooted in something.
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It's going to be rooted in some kind of perspective.
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There is no such thing as education apart from moral instruction.
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There is no such thing as a morally neutral education.
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It has never existed anywhere ever and will never exist.
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To educate children is to not only tell them facts that they should know, it is to form them into the kinds of people that we think they should be.
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It's why I don't send my kids to public school, because I don't trust the public school system to form my kids into the people they should be.
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The public school system will form my kids into the people that the public school system thinks they should be.
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But I disagree with what the public school system thinks my kids should be.
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So, the school system right now, the supposedly secular school system, imparts moral teachings on kids all the time.
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Because if rather than the Ten Commandments, the schools hung posters that said, you know, thou shall be tolerant, thou shall be kind, be open, be inclusive, be open-minded, be welcoming.
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And schools do have posters like that all over the place.
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It might not say thou shall, but it does say, you know, it does have the be tolerant, be kind, be open-minded, and all this kind of stuff.
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And very few people at all object to it, in fact.
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But, you know, those are commandments in their own right.
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There's nothing in science that says we should be tolerant.
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There's nothing, it's not some objective fact about the universe.
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It's a moral, it's a moral, it's a moral instruction.
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But who is that moral instruction, that moral commandment coming from?
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They don't want to take the Ten Commandments because they came from God, even though they don't even believe in God.
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No, actually, it's a commandment coming from our secular liberal culture.
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So, we can have commandments in the schools that are ancient and have served as the foundation of Western civilization for many, many centuries.
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Or, we can have commandments that were devised by secular liberal culture ten minutes ago.
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And, you know, I prefer the originals, I guess is what I'm saying.
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This is some, I think, quite revealing footage that's been circulating.
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It's from, apparently, an Instagram account that, I guess, goes around and films stuff like this, people kind of living their lives.
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And here we have a couple of homeless people who are no longer homeless, technically, because they were given free public housing.
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And it's just a short clip of them, it seems, shortly after they moved into this public housing arrangement.
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This is how they are responding to being taken off the street, rescued, you'd think, from this life of vagrancy.
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This is Isabella Towers, an apartment complex in Knoxville, Tennessee.
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But you could kind of make this nice about the size of mine back home now.
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Come on, we've got to learn a little gratitude.
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I would prefer this personally to living on the street.
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It's really about the same because we would have more freedom out there, though.
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To where I could actually go outside and do yard work.
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Achieving that from this place is substantially easier than achieving that from the streets.
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But I would say this is a good transitionary point.
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Have a place where you can take a shower, freshen up, and then go to work.
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And then from there, you can eventually have your first bathroom security for a place that you actually...
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They have a bathroom, a shower, AC, kitchen bed, a door they can lock, you know.
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And you would think much better than sleeping on a cardboard box out on the street or under a bridge or something.
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They say that it's no better than being on the street.
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They won't accept anything less than 3,000 square feet and five acres, you know.
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Meanwhile, if you look at the video, you can see that they've already totally destroyed this place that they were given.
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We always hear about, let's have an honest conversation about this and that.
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Well, when are we going to have the honest conversation about homelessness?
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That's a conversation that very few people want to have.
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Even though we all kind of know, you know, and it's one of those classic sort of conversations that you have in your living room, but people don't want to say it out loud.
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But, you know, at a certain point, we just have to be real about it.
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That you give homeless people free housing and they destroy it and they complain about it and they don't want it and they end up back on the street.
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And by the way, many, you know, you talk to people that work with the homeless, you talk to people who, anyone who's tried to help the homeless in any way, everyone has a similar story.
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I mean, I'll never forget, my sister has a story of seeing a homeless person in a parking lot once.
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And, you know, it's just an anecdote, but like there's just many, just symptomatic of the larger problem, but didn't want to give cash because, you know, not really excited about the idea of helping someone's drug habit.
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She went out and she went to a local takeout place and got a gift card for whatever it was, you know, 20, 30 bucks to go get some food.
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And the homeless woman complained that she didn't like that restaurant.
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I mean, they say beggars can't be choosers, but it turns out the beggars very often are choosers, at least in these kinds of cases.
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So I've said many times on the show, and I've been mocked for it every time, that you cannot fix homelessness by giving people homes.
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The problem with homeless people is not that they don't have homes.
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I know it's shocking for some of the dumbest among us to hear that.
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And we know that because when you give them free housing, this is what happens.
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They destroy it, first of all, and then they're back on the street.
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Okay, you could give every homeless person in America a free house with three square meals a day for free,
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and we would have zero homelessness in America for about a week.
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And within two weeks, we'd have the same amount that we had before.
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It's obvious because in most cases, if a homeless person really wanted to be in a house, they could be.
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They're not out on the street because they couldn't get a job and they couldn't afford a house.
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The vast majority of these people are not trying to get jobs or get houses.
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And when you see someone on the side of the road, you know, with the change cup, like, they're not...
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This is not someone who's trying every single day and putting in applications and trying to get a job.
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They're most likely making basically zero attempt to change their situation.
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In fact, they're so uninterested in finding housing that, again, if you give them housing,
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they'll end up back on the street in many, many cases.
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I think it is obvious to almost everyone whether they say it out loud or not.
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First of all, many of these people are drug addicts.
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I can't say for absolute certain about the two individuals in that video.
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My guess, if I had to guess, I think it's a safe assumption,
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that when they talk about the freedom of being on the street, they're talking about drugs.
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He means he can do drugs on the street, but he can't do drugs in government housing.
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You know, homeless people are homeless in many, many cases
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because they've dedicated their whole lives to drugs.
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And if you give them money, if you give them, if you be very generous,
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and you give them even, you know, say you go to a homeless person,
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you give them $100 because you really want to be generous,
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because they're going to go spend it on drugs and overdose.
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And they're apathetic at best about their housing situation.
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And I don't know why people pretend they can't wrap their minds around this sort of thing.
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But a lot of homeless people really don't actually want homes all that much.
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These are, you know, often, often not desperate and starving people
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but the yearning for the house part doesn't appear to be the case.
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And again, anyone who's ever worked with homeless people knows this.
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There's not going to be a time when there's no homeless people.
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It doesn't have to be like you can't walk down the street in any major city
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The problem is that our leaders and a lot of people in general
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They don't have the stomach to deal with these kinds of problems
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And there's really only one way most of the time.
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And either you're going to do the thing that works
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because it makes your tummy hurt to think about it.
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you need to crack down on drugs in a major, major way.
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Okay, I'll know that there's an actual war on drugs
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when drug traffickers are being arrested and executed.
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A war on drugs is you arrest the drug traffickers
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if you're completely clueless about these things.