Ep. 156 - Christian Artist Doesn't Know If Homosexuality Is A Sin
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Summary
Christian pop singer Lauren Daigle is asked about homosexuality, and it doesn t go well. Shocker! But there are several issues tied up in this story, and we'll talk about them today on The Matt Walsh Show.
Transcript
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Today on the show, a famous Christian pop artist is asked about homosexuality and it doesn't go
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well. Shocker. But there are several issues tied up in this story and I want to talk about all that
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and we'll do that today on The Matt Walsh Show.
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All right, a lot of people have asked for my opinion on this Lauren Daigle situation. Lauren
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Daigle, just for some background, is a Christian singer. She's exploded in popularity over the last
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year or so. She found a lot of success in the mainstream as well and this has not sat well
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with some, maybe many of her Christian fans. And then Daigle went on Ellen a couple of weeks ago
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and the criticisms from many fans were ramped up even more because she appeared on Ellen and the
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woman was, she's basically been ripped to shreds for how she dresses, for the shows that she appears
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on, for the way she speaks and so on and so on. Some people have even apparently watched her on
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TV giving interviews and they've counted, they kept track, like I guess they have a notepad,
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they're keeping track of the number of times that she says the word Jesus and she doesn't say it
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enough. They've decided so that she's been criticized for that. That was all leading up to
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this week. And I've been on the record saying, and I'm not, you know, Lauren Daigle is,
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it's not my kind of music, so I'm not really a fan. I can't call myself a fan of hers. I think she's a
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good singer, but just not my type of music. But I have kind of noticed some of these criticisms,
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especially around when she appeared on Ellen. And I've been on the record saying that I think a lot
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of that is just petty and it's kind of embarrassing for Christians. It makes us look, it just makes us
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look petty and ridiculous. But then this week she was interviewed on a radio show and she was asked
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straight up whether she thinks homosexuality is a sin. And this was the answer she gave. She said,
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I can't honestly answer on that. In a sense, I have too many people that I love and they are
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homosexual. I don't know. I actually had a conversation with someone last night about it.
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I can't say one way or another, I'm not God. So when people ask questions like that, that's my go-to.
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Like I just say, read the Bible and find out for yourself. And then when you find out, let me know
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because I'm learning too. Now, this answer is obviously absurd. The Bible is clear on the subject.
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There's no ambiguity. There are issues that are more theologically complex and less obvious when
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you look at the text, but this is not one of those issues. The Old and New Testaments are clear about
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the sinfulness of the homosexual act. Romans 126 through 28 is just one example. There are many
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others. And I agree with Lauren Daigle in the sense that, yeah, go read the Bible and see it for
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yourself. Now, Daigle though says that she doesn't know what the Bible says. And that's kind of hard
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to believe. If it's true though, if it's true that she doesn't know what the Bible says, then her
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knowledge of the Bible is very sorely lacking. And if she's going to make music and make lots of money
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making music that's supposed to worship and glorify God, then you would think she'd want to know who God
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is. And in order to do that, she needs to go read the Bible. But if it isn't true, okay, if she knows
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what the Bible says, but she said she doesn't know, then she's not being honest. And either way,
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it's just not good. Now, like I said, she said in there, read the Bible and find out for yourself.
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That part is good. And that was a good part. Now, if she had just said that and left it there
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and said, hey, listen, you can read the Bible yourself and find out about that. That would have
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been kind of a dodge, but I think it would have been an acceptable dodge because at the end of the day,
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she's encouraging you to go read the Bible. And so I would say, fine. Or, you know, I think even
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better, and maybe this is just a tip for anyone else out there who is uncomfortable with this
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question, but maybe asked it, you know, if you're a person of some prominence, then what you could just
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be honest, you know, I think honesty is a good policy. And you could say, listen, the Bible says
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that it's a sin. I personally struggle with that. I struggle to balance that with the love that I have
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for my gay friends and my gay family members and so on. So it's just, that's something that I struggle
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with and it's a balance that I'm trying to strike. And, you know, to be honest, there are times when I
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don't really understand why it's a sin, but I accept the truth of God's word and I pray that
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he'll help me to better understand it. And I hope that you will pray for me also. You know, I think
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an answer like that, because I think that's basically what Lauren Dago was getting at. And if she had just
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said that, it would have been honest. And how could you criticize her? She's being honest in that case.
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And she's saying, look, there are things in the Bible that we all struggle with. So you can be
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honest and just say it. As long as at the end of the day, you're still affirming the Bible as the
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authority and you're not lying and saying you don't know what's in the Bible when, of course,
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you darn well do know. So that would have been fine. But that's not the answer that she gave.
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She gave an answer that was quite different than that. And the whole thing of I'm not God,
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you know, that just makes no sense. That is the silliest way of deflecting, because of course you
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aren't God. But if you're Christian, then you believe that God's view on the subject has been
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revealed in Scripture. And if you're Christian, then you believe that our view, your view, should
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conform to God's view. And if it doesn't conform, then that's a struggle. That's something you need to
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pray about. If you don't believe either of those two things that I just said, that God's word is
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revealed in Scripture or that our view should conform with God's view, if you don't believe
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either of those two things, then in what sense are you Christian? And you see, that's the thing here
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about people say, well, it's not black and white. It is black and white when it comes to something like
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this, because the Bible does clearly say repeatedly that homosexuality is a sin. So as a Christian,
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there's really, you either accept that or you don't. You either accept it humbly or you don't. And if you
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don't accept it, then what you're saying is the parts of the Bible that articulate this view of
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homosexuality, those parts are wrong. And if you're saying those parts are wrong, then either you're
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saying that God is wrong, which would be, which is another way of saying that he's not God, or you're saying
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that the Bible does not actually fully and truly reflect God's truth. And if you're saying that,
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then where else in the Bible is it not reflected? You're saying that that part of the Bible is fallible,
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you've just kind of decreed that. Well, then what else, what other parts of the Bible is fallible? And if any part of
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the Bible is fallible in that sense, and in the sense that it communicates something that is simply, it communicates
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a, it is wrong on a moral truth. If that's what you're saying, then you have just made the Bible
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itself fallible. And you just can't do that. So when a Christian calls something a sin,
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they're not claiming any kind of special divine authority. They're simply recognizing God's divine
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authority. So it would be like, if you asked me, is tax evasion illegal? It wouldn't make any sense
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for me to answer, Hey man, I'm not a lawmaker. Okay. I, it's, that's not up to me to decide. I
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don't decide what's illegal or legal. Yeah. Well, I don't have the power to make something legal or
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illegal, but I don't need to have that power. I don't need to be a lawmaker to simply identify
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the things that the real lawmakers have made legal or illegal. And the same is true of the divine
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lawmaker. So yes, it's true that Lauren Daigle isn't God, but that doesn't mean that Lauren Daigle
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needs to be God in order to identify a sin. She can still identify it according to what God has said.
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And if she chooses not to, then there must be some other reason. It's not, it's not that she's not
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God. There's another reason why she's not identifying. Now, with that said, I must also mention
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that in my opinion, the manner and the tone and the tenor and the volume of the criticism that Daigle
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has faced from Christians has been a bit over the top. Um, and even before this unfortunate interview
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answer, she was, as I said, constantly harangued and scolded for every little petty thing.
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And then once she gave this answer, uh, I, I, I, I could detect from some Christians, not all, but some
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almost something like glee, like they were happy. They seemed happy that she, that she said this
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because it vindicated their own criticisms of her. So they said, see, I told you so. She's a heretic.
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Yes. She's a heretic. Yes. Now they obviously didn't say that explicitly, but that was kind of the tone.
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Um, and I'm, you know, I'm uncomfortable with that.
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Here's the thing. Until you have actually faced backlash from the Christian community,
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um, deserved or undeserved backlash, but until you've faced it on a, on a, on a larger scale,
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then you really don't understand how vile and petty and venomous it can be. Okay. I have faced it.
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Uh, I'm not going to rehash it all now, but when I took my stance on how to interpret
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the book of Genesis, um, in particular, the creation story, and a lot of Christians decided
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that my view was unbiblical, the, the response, um, from a lot of Christians was just
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absolutely disgusting, to be honest. Um, not across the board, not across the board,
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but across much of the board. Um, there were a lot of people that it didn't seem like they were
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looking to defend God's word. It's more, these were prideful, resentful people who seem to take
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a certain glee in tearing me apart and not just me, but just tearing somebody apart. Um, because they,
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they think they've detected that someone is wrong about something theologically.
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And so they can come up and prove how, how, how well they know their Bibles and they can tear
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someone apart. And in that sense, prove how holy they are. Um, there was a lot of that.
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I experienced a lot of that, not just, not a little bit, not a little bit, but, but quite a lot.
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Um, now I don't think that my view on that topic is at all comparable to what Daigle said. So I'm not
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looking to draw any comparisons there. I happen to think I was right biblically. It's clear that
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Daigle is wrong, but I only bring this up because through that experience, I got a look at Christians
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from another angle. Um, and it was enlightening. You know, it really was a kind of, it, it was,
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it was, it was, it was, it was an eyeopening experience for me. So when people say that Daigle
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gave that answer in order to avoid being attacked by the world, uh, that's true, I'm sure that
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probably is why she gave that answer, but have you ever been attacked by Christians?
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Uh, because that's no picnic either. I assure you it is just as vicious, just as intense, um,
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just as often slanderous and dishonest. And as I keep saying the word petty, but petty as well to the
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exact same degree, you know, I, and I, and I can compare it because I've, I've been attacked plenty
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from that, from, from the world, uh, from people who hate Christians and so on. I've experienced those
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attacks plenty. And I've also got not as often, but a few times I've got it from the other side
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and it's really indistinguishable. Um, it's, it's the same. So how should we approach Lauren Daigle
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as, as Christians? Um, I think we need to correct her. I think we need to be, we need to affirm what
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the Bible says, but we should do it with some grace and patience and forgiveness. And, um,
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we should realize that her response in that interview does not vindicate the petty resentful
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attacks prior to this. And we shouldn't be so incredibly eager to tear someone apart for
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stepping outside of whatever box we've set up. And I'm not referring to her answer on homosexuality
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when I say that. Okay. Because that's not a box that we've set up. That's if you, if you want to put
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it that way, that's the box that the Bible sets up. But, um, I'm referring more to all the other
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criticisms before that. I don't like how she dresses. I don't like the answer she gave there.
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I don't think she should go on that show. No, she shouldn't have gone on that award show. Oh,
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I don't like, no, you know, her music has changed. She sounds too much like Adele now. I don't like
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that. I don't like that. It's all that stuff. As I said, it's, it's, it's embarrassing for us as
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Christians. Uh, it just makes us look horrible and not, not in a good way either, because I know
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you say that was a, well, who cares what the world thinks of us? Yeah, but it's not good if we look
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horrible because we're actually being horrible. That's not good because in that case we do, we
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should care what the world thinks of us in that situation. Because if we're being hard, if we actually
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are being horrible and the world looks at it at that and sees it, uh, we're giving them reasons to
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ignore, to ignore us and to ignore the faith and to ignore the Bible. And so, and so it does matter
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actually. Um, I think there's another thing we need to consider here as well. I think we need to
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re-evaluate, uh, Christianity as its own genre of entertainment. You know, there are, there are
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Christian singers and Christian shows and Christian movies. Uh, Christianity is its own, its own thing,
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its own, its own genre. And the problem, first of all, is that anyone can become a successful Christian
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artist in any of these mediums just by talking about Jesus in a song or in a movie. And so,
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it's like that, that South Park episode from years ago, uh, where it's, it's very easy to exploit
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the Christian genre and make lots of money. Um, because the theological and artistic standards are
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very low, a relatively mediocre musical artist, no matter their actual religious views can find
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enormous success in the Christian music world. If they just tailor their songs to be a little bit
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more Jesus-y. And so in that South Park episode, Cartman takes normal pop songs and just puts in the
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word Jesus here and there. And then he becomes this, uh, this, uh, you know, platinum selling
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Christian artist. And that, that's, that's kind of how it goes because the standards are so low.
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Now, I think that Daigle is talented. I, I, she's not mediocre. I don't, as I said, I don't listen to
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her music. It's not my kind of thing, but she does have real talent. Still, the point stands,
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generally speaking. So if, if we view Lauren Daigle, not as a Christian artist of the Christian genre,
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but just as a pop artist who happens to sing about God sometimes, then her answer on homosexuality is
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a non-issue. It doesn't matter. Because she'd still be a person who makes relatively wholesome,
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family-friendly music. Um, and her theological views would be of no consequence in that case.
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We only see it as consequential because we see the Christian entertainment world as a ministry.
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And then when someone in that ministry, uh, has heretical views on something, we react as though
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our pastor or our priest had those views. But these are not pastors or priests, and this really is not
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a ministry. The Christian, the Christian entertainment world, that's a business, first and foremost,
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way before it's a ministry. It seeks to make money, okay? Which, again, is fine. But it should do that
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without the pretension of being a ministry, because that's what I think gets people hung up,
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and that's where the confusion comes from. You know, I think ideally, um, there wouldn't be
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this delineation between Christian entertainment and regular entertainment. Um, that, that's,
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that's the problem. That shouldn't exist, really. There, there was no such delineation for the first,
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say, um, I don't know, um, I don't know, 1,980 years of Christianity. For all that time, um, up until
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very recent times, you had artists and sculptors and playwrights and authors and poets and even
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filmmakers for, for a period of time who, who, who happened to be Christian and who would sometimes
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produce great and beautiful works of art that would glorify God. They would produce religious art
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sometimes, but they would also produce art that was less explicitly religious because they were just
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artists. That's all. They spoke what was ever, whatever was in their hearts at the moment. That's
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what they, that's what they painted or sculpted or wrote about or whatever. Um, and, and that's it.
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They were, they were artists. So it didn't, so back then it didn't really matter as much if
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Da Vinci or Shakespeare or Dostoevsky or, or Dante or whoever happened to harbor personal views on some
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theological topics that were unorthodox or heretical. You know, it didn't really matter because nobody
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looks at the personal life and the personal views of Dostoevsky and declares that, oh, okay, well,
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I guess crime and punishment is worthless because of that. Nobody does that. That's only the dynamic now
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because Christianity has become its own business. It's become its own genre. Um, and I think, I think
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ultimately we need to get away from that. So to review, Lauren Daigle's answer on homosexuality was
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absurd. Um, Lauren Daigle is not a theological authority. She should not be looked at that way.
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Nobody ever should have expected that from her and nobody should expect that from pop artists of any
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kind. I think Lauren Daigle should be looked at as a pop artist, not a Christian artist.
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And if we look at her that way, then who cares really? Um, but at the same time, I think we as
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Christians also need to reevaluate the way that we respond in these situations and the, the image that
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we project to the world, when we attack like hyenas, um, anytime someone offends us or crosses us,
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even if we have legitimate reasons to criticize. And with Lauren Daigle, I think there have been
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really illegitimate reasons to criticize. And now she's given us legitimate reasons. Um, but in both
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cases, I think we need to just look at how we respond. Um, and, uh, you know, try to have a little bit
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of grace. And I know, and I say all that, I know that, uh, certainly I speak first and foremost to
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myself because I know I need to work on that. Um, but we all do, we all do as well. All right.
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Thanks for watching. Thanks for listening, everybody. Godspeed.
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I'm Michael Knowles, host of the Michael Knowles show. Vegan extremists want us to stop
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