The Matt Walsh Show - Ep. 156 - Christian Artist Doesn't Know If Homosexuality Is A Sin

00:00:00.000 Today on the show, a famous Christian pop artist is asked about homosexuality and it doesn't go

00:00:05.700 well. Shocker. But there are several issues tied up in this story and I want to talk about all that

00:00:11.040 and we'll do that today on The Matt Walsh Show.

00:00:16.560 All right, a lot of people have asked for my opinion on this Lauren Daigle situation. Lauren

00:00:22.140 Daigle, just for some background, is a Christian singer. She's exploded in popularity over the last

00:00:28.480 year or so. She found a lot of success in the mainstream as well and this has not sat well

00:00:36.660 with some, maybe many of her Christian fans. And then Daigle went on Ellen a couple of weeks ago 0.64

00:00:44.180 and the criticisms from many fans were ramped up even more because she appeared on Ellen and the

00:00:53.040 woman was, she's basically been ripped to shreds for how she dresses, for the shows that she appears 1.00

00:01:00.820 on, for the way she speaks and so on and so on. Some people have even apparently watched her on

00:01:06.040 TV giving interviews and they've counted, they kept track, like I guess they have a notepad,

00:01:12.560 they're keeping track of the number of times that she says the word Jesus and she doesn't say it

00:01:17.140 enough. They've decided so that she's been criticized for that. That was all leading up to

00:01:21.880 this week. And I've been on the record saying, and I'm not, you know, Lauren Daigle is,

00:01:31.740 it's not my kind of music, so I'm not really a fan. I can't call myself a fan of hers. I think she's a

00:01:37.420 good singer, but just not my type of music. But I have kind of noticed some of these criticisms,

00:01:44.100 especially around when she appeared on Ellen. And I've been on the record saying that I think a lot

00:01:48.900 of that is just petty and it's kind of embarrassing for Christians. It makes us look, it just makes us

00:01:56.280 look petty and ridiculous. But then this week she was interviewed on a radio show and she was asked 0.97

00:02:06.400 straight up whether she thinks homosexuality is a sin. And this was the answer she gave. She said,

00:02:12.500 I can't honestly answer on that. In a sense, I have too many people that I love and they are

00:02:17.600 homosexual. I don't know. I actually had a conversation with someone last night about it.

00:02:21.800 I can't say one way or another, I'm not God. So when people ask questions like that, that's my go-to.

00:02:27.260 Like I just say, read the Bible and find out for yourself. And then when you find out, let me know

00:02:32.240 because I'm learning too. Now, this answer is obviously absurd. The Bible is clear on the subject.

00:02:39.300 There's no ambiguity. There are issues that are more theologically complex and less obvious when

00:02:45.760 you look at the text, but this is not one of those issues. The Old and New Testaments are clear about

00:02:52.020 the sinfulness of the homosexual act. Romans 126 through 28 is just one example. There are many 1.00

00:02:59.380 others. And I agree with Lauren Daigle in the sense that, yeah, go read the Bible and see it for

00:03:05.880 yourself. Now, Daigle though says that she doesn't know what the Bible says. And that's kind of hard

00:03:13.180 to believe. If it's true though, if it's true that she doesn't know what the Bible says, then her

00:03:17.200 knowledge of the Bible is very sorely lacking. And if she's going to make music and make lots of money

00:03:21.940 making music that's supposed to worship and glorify God, then you would think she'd want to know who God

00:03:25.980 is. And in order to do that, she needs to go read the Bible. But if it isn't true, okay, if she knows

00:03:34.320 what the Bible says, but she said she doesn't know, then she's not being honest. And either way,

00:03:40.160 it's just not good. Now, like I said, she said in there, read the Bible and find out for yourself.

00:03:46.160 That part is good. And that was a good part. Now, if she had just said that and left it there

00:03:51.580 and said, hey, listen, you can read the Bible yourself and find out about that. That would have

00:03:57.900 been kind of a dodge, but I think it would have been an acceptable dodge because at the end of the day,

00:04:02.800 she's encouraging you to go read the Bible. And so I would say, fine. Or, you know, I think even

00:04:08.540 better, and maybe this is just a tip for anyone else out there who is uncomfortable with this

00:04:15.440 question, but maybe asked it, you know, if you're a person of some prominence, then what you could just

00:04:23.940 be honest, you know, I think honesty is a good policy. And you could say, listen, the Bible says

00:04:31.700 that it's a sin. I personally struggle with that. I struggle to balance that with the love that I have

00:04:38.640 for my gay friends and my gay family members and so on. So it's just, that's something that I struggle

00:04:43.900 with and it's a balance that I'm trying to strike. And, you know, to be honest, there are times when I

00:04:49.640 don't really understand why it's a sin, but I accept the truth of God's word and I pray that

00:04:55.760 he'll help me to better understand it. And I hope that you will pray for me also. You know, I think

00:05:00.600 an answer like that, because I think that's basically what Lauren Dago was getting at. And if she had just

00:05:07.640 said that, it would have been honest. And how could you criticize her? She's being honest in that case.

00:05:12.260 And she's saying, look, there are things in the Bible that we all struggle with. So you can be

00:05:18.400 honest and just say it. As long as at the end of the day, you're still affirming the Bible as the

00:05:23.380 authority and you're not lying and saying you don't know what's in the Bible when, of course,

00:05:30.460 you darn well do know. So that would have been fine. But that's not the answer that she gave.

00:05:36.040 She gave an answer that was quite different than that. And the whole thing of I'm not God,

00:05:40.740 you know, that just makes no sense. That is the silliest way of deflecting, because of course you 0.86

00:05:47.060 aren't God. But if you're Christian, then you believe that God's view on the subject has been 0.90

00:05:53.700 revealed in Scripture. And if you're Christian, then you believe that our view, your view, should

00:06:00.660 conform to God's view. And if it doesn't conform, then that's a struggle. That's something you need to

00:06:05.740 pray about. If you don't believe either of those two things that I just said, that God's word is

00:06:12.400 revealed in Scripture or that our view should conform with God's view, if you don't believe

00:06:16.580 either of those two things, then in what sense are you Christian? And you see, that's the thing here

00:06:24.800 about people say, well, it's not black and white. It is black and white when it comes to something like

00:06:29.840 this, because the Bible does clearly say repeatedly that homosexuality is a sin. So as a Christian,

00:06:39.860 there's really, you either accept that or you don't. You either accept it humbly or you don't. And if you

00:06:47.220 don't accept it, then what you're saying is the parts of the Bible that articulate this view of

00:06:56.480 homosexuality, those parts are wrong. And if you're saying those parts are wrong, then either you're

00:07:03.440 saying that God is wrong, which would be, which is another way of saying that he's not God, or you're saying

00:07:13.780 that the Bible does not actually fully and truly reflect God's truth. And if you're saying that,

00:07:26.480 then where else in the Bible is it not reflected? You're saying that that part of the Bible is fallible,

00:07:32.760 you've just kind of decreed that. Well, then what else, what other parts of the Bible is fallible? And if any part of

00:07:38.000 the Bible is fallible in that sense, and in the sense that it communicates something that is simply, it communicates

00:07:45.700 a, it is wrong on a moral truth. If that's what you're saying, then you have just made the Bible

00:07:53.480 itself fallible. And you just can't do that. So when a Christian calls something a sin, 0.84

00:08:05.480 they're not claiming any kind of special divine authority. They're simply recognizing God's divine

00:08:13.200 authority. So it would be like, if you asked me, is tax evasion illegal? It wouldn't make any sense

00:08:21.480 for me to answer, Hey man, I'm not a lawmaker. Okay. I, it's, that's not up to me to decide. I

00:08:26.480 don't decide what's illegal or legal. Yeah. Well, I don't have the power to make something legal or

00:08:31.780 illegal, but I don't need to have that power. I don't need to be a lawmaker to simply identify

00:08:37.680 the things that the real lawmakers have made legal or illegal. And the same is true of the divine

00:08:43.700 lawmaker. So yes, it's true that Lauren Daigle isn't God, but that doesn't mean that Lauren Daigle

00:08:48.600 needs to be God in order to identify a sin. She can still identify it according to what God has said.

00:08:56.360 And if she chooses not to, then there must be some other reason. It's not, it's not that she's not

00:09:01.840 God. There's another reason why she's not identifying. Now, with that said, I must also mention

00:09:11.600 that in my opinion, the manner and the tone and the tenor and the volume of the criticism that Daigle

00:09:24.000 has faced from Christians has been a bit over the top. Um, and even before this unfortunate interview 1.00

00:09:34.300 answer, she was, as I said, constantly harangued and scolded for every little petty thing. 1.00

00:09:42.820 And then once she gave this answer, uh, I, I, I, I could detect from some Christians, not all, but some

00:09:51.780 almost something like glee, like they were happy. They seemed happy that she, that she said this

00:09:58.540 because it vindicated their own criticisms of her. So they said, see, I told you so. She's a heretic. 1.00

00:10:05.060 Yes. She's a heretic. Yes. Now they obviously didn't say that explicitly, but that was kind of the tone. 0.97

00:10:12.520 Um, and I'm, you know, I'm uncomfortable with that.

00:10:19.280 Here's the thing. Until you have actually faced backlash from the Christian community,

00:10:28.540 um, deserved or undeserved backlash, but until you've faced it on a, on a, on a larger scale,

00:10:38.240 then you really don't understand how vile and petty and venomous it can be. Okay. I have faced it.

00:10:47.760 Uh, I'm not going to rehash it all now, but when I took my stance on how to interpret

00:10:52.780 the book of Genesis, um, in particular, the creation story, and a lot of Christians decided

00:10:59.540 that my view was unbiblical, the, the response, um, from a lot of Christians was just

00:11:08.800 absolutely disgusting, to be honest. Um, not across the board, not across the board,

00:11:15.880 but across much of the board. Um, there were a lot of people that it didn't seem like they were

00:11:24.220 looking to defend God's word. It's more, these were prideful, resentful people who seem to take

00:11:30.980 a certain glee in tearing me apart and not just me, but just tearing somebody apart. Um, because they,

00:11:38.660 they think they've detected that someone is wrong about something theologically.

00:11:41.700 And so they can come up and prove how, how, how well they know their Bibles and they can tear 0.97

00:11:48.160 someone apart. And in that sense, prove how holy they are. Um, there was a lot of that.

00:11:56.480 I experienced a lot of that, not just, not a little bit, not a little bit, but, but quite a lot.

00:12:02.680 Um, now I don't think that my view on that topic is at all comparable to what Daigle said. So I'm not

00:12:09.580 looking to draw any comparisons there. I happen to think I was right biblically. It's clear that

00:12:14.160 Daigle is wrong, but I only bring this up because through that experience, I got a look at Christians 1.00

00:12:22.180 from another angle. Um, and it was enlightening. You know, it really was a kind of, it, it was,

00:12:28.380 it was, it was, it was, it was an eyeopening experience for me. So when people say that Daigle

00:12:35.500 gave that answer in order to avoid being attacked by the world, uh, that's true, I'm sure that

00:12:42.140 probably is why she gave that answer, but have you ever been attacked by Christians?

00:12:50.040 Uh, because that's no picnic either. I assure you it is just as vicious, just as intense, um,

00:12:57.940 just as often slanderous and dishonest. And as I keep saying the word petty, but petty as well to the

00:13:07.800 exact same degree, you know, I, and I, and I can compare it because I've, I've been attacked plenty

00:13:15.080 from that, from, from the world, uh, from people who hate Christians and so on. I've experienced those

00:13:20.240 attacks plenty. And I've also got not as often, but a few times I've got it from the other side

00:13:25.600 and it's really indistinguishable. Um, it's, it's the same. So how should we approach Lauren Daigle

00:13:38.780 as, as Christians? Um, I think we need to correct her. I think we need to be, we need to affirm what

00:13:44.020 the Bible says, but we should do it with some grace and patience and forgiveness. And, um,

00:13:51.360 we should realize that her response in that interview does not vindicate the petty resentful

00:14:00.280 attacks prior to this. And we shouldn't be so incredibly eager to tear someone apart for

00:14:07.320 stepping outside of whatever box we've set up. And I'm not referring to her answer on homosexuality

00:14:12.900 when I say that. Okay. Because that's not a box that we've set up. That's if you, if you want to put

00:14:18.800 it that way, that's the box that the Bible sets up. But, um, I'm referring more to all the other

00:14:24.560 criticisms before that. I don't like how she dresses. I don't like the answer she gave there.

00:14:29.160 I don't think she should go on that show. No, she shouldn't have gone on that award show. Oh,

00:14:33.080 I don't like, no, you know, her music has changed. She sounds too much like Adele now. I don't like

00:14:37.140 that. I don't like that. It's all that stuff. As I said, it's, it's, it's embarrassing for us as

00:14:42.580 Christians. Uh, it just makes us look horrible and not, not in a good way either, because I know 1.00

00:14:52.380 you say that was a, well, who cares what the world thinks of us? Yeah, but it's not good if we look

00:14:58.220 horrible because we're actually being horrible. That's not good because in that case we do, we

00:15:04.380 should care what the world thinks of us in that situation. Because if we're being hard, if we actually

00:15:09.960 are being horrible and the world looks at it at that and sees it, uh, we're giving them reasons to

00:15:15.360 ignore, to ignore us and to ignore the faith and to ignore the Bible. And so, and so it does matter

00:15:22.920 actually. Um, I think there's another thing we need to consider here as well. I think we need to

00:15:31.640 re-evaluate, uh, Christianity as its own genre of entertainment. You know, there are, there are

00:15:40.680 Christian singers and Christian shows and Christian movies. Uh, Christianity is its own, its own thing, 1.00

00:15:47.980 its own, its own genre. And the problem, first of all, is that anyone can become a successful Christian 0.98

00:15:54.620 artist in any of these mediums just by talking about Jesus in a song or in a movie. And so,

00:16:01.520 it's like that, that South Park episode from years ago, uh, where it's, it's very easy to exploit

00:16:07.700 the Christian genre and make lots of money. Um, because the theological and artistic standards are

00:16:16.180 very low, a relatively mediocre musical artist, no matter their actual religious views can find

00:16:23.460 enormous success in the Christian music world. If they just tailor their songs to be a little bit 1.00

00:16:29.400 more Jesus-y. And so in that South Park episode, Cartman takes normal pop songs and just puts in the

00:16:38.260 word Jesus here and there. And then he becomes this, uh, this, uh, you know, platinum selling

00:16:45.300 Christian artist. And that, that's, that's kind of how it goes because the standards are so low.

00:16:51.180 Now, I think that Daigle is talented. I, I, she's not mediocre. I don't, as I said, I don't listen to

00:16:58.960 her music. It's not my kind of thing, but she does have real talent. Still, the point stands,

00:17:04.000 generally speaking. So if, if we view Lauren Daigle, not as a Christian artist of the Christian genre,

00:17:14.780 but just as a pop artist who happens to sing about God sometimes, then her answer on homosexuality is

00:17:21.960 a non-issue. It doesn't matter. Because she'd still be a person who makes relatively wholesome, 0.96

00:17:27.160 family-friendly music. Um, and her theological views would be of no consequence in that case.

00:17:33.820 We only see it as consequential because we see the Christian entertainment world as a ministry.

00:17:39.920 And then when someone in that ministry, uh, has heretical views on something, we react as though

00:17:46.900 our pastor or our priest had those views. But these are not pastors or priests, and this really is not

00:17:53.860 a ministry. The Christian, the Christian entertainment world, that's a business, first and foremost, 0.98

00:18:00.960 way before it's a ministry. It seeks to make money, okay? Which, again, is fine. But it should do that

00:18:09.600 without the pretension of being a ministry, because that's what I think gets people hung up,

00:18:14.440 and that's where the confusion comes from. You know, I think ideally, um, there wouldn't be

00:18:20.680 this delineation between Christian entertainment and regular entertainment. Um, that, that's,

00:18:28.120 that's the problem. That shouldn't exist, really. There, there was no such delineation for the first,

00:18:34.180 say, um, I don't know, um, I don't know, 1,980 years of Christianity. For all that time, um, up until

00:18:44.100 very recent times, you had artists and sculptors and playwrights and authors and poets and even

00:18:51.180 filmmakers for, for a period of time who, who, who happened to be Christian and who would sometimes

00:18:57.560 produce great and beautiful works of art that would glorify God. They would produce religious art

00:19:02.920 sometimes, but they would also produce art that was less explicitly religious because they were just

00:19:08.060 artists. That's all. They spoke what was ever, whatever was in their hearts at the moment. That's

00:19:12.980 what they, that's what they painted or sculpted or wrote about or whatever. Um, and, and that's it.

00:19:20.420 They were, they were artists. So it didn't, so back then it didn't really matter as much if

00:19:27.060 Da Vinci or Shakespeare or Dostoevsky or, or Dante or whoever happened to harbor personal views on some

00:19:34.120 theological topics that were unorthodox or heretical. You know, it didn't really matter because nobody

00:19:40.700 looks at the personal life and the personal views of Dostoevsky and declares that, oh, okay, well,

00:19:45.920 I guess crime and punishment is worthless because of that. Nobody does that. That's only the dynamic now

00:19:52.780 because Christianity has become its own business. It's become its own genre. Um, and I think, I think 1.00

00:20:01.120 ultimately we need to get away from that. So to review, Lauren Daigle's answer on homosexuality was 0.99

00:20:10.440 absurd. Um, Lauren Daigle is not a theological authority. She should not be looked at that way.

00:20:17.740 Nobody ever should have expected that from her and nobody should expect that from pop artists of any

00:20:23.900 kind. I think Lauren Daigle should be looked at as a pop artist, not a Christian artist.

00:20:30.700 And if we look at her that way, then who cares really? Um, but at the same time, I think we as

00:20:38.080 Christians also need to reevaluate the way that we respond in these situations and the, the image that

00:20:46.080 we project to the world, when we attack like hyenas, um, anytime someone offends us or crosses us,

00:20:53.640 even if we have legitimate reasons to criticize. And with Lauren Daigle, I think there have been

00:20:58.420 really illegitimate reasons to criticize. And now she's given us legitimate reasons. Um, but in both

00:21:03.760 cases, I think we need to just look at how we respond. Um, and, uh, you know, try to have a little bit

00:21:12.020 of grace. And I know, and I say all that, I know that, uh, certainly I speak first and foremost to

00:21:19.640 myself because I know I need to work on that. Um, but we all do, we all do as well. All right.

00:21:27.220 Thanks for watching. Thanks for listening, everybody. Godspeed.

00:21:29.820 I'm Michael Knowles, host of the Michael Knowles show. Vegan extremists want us to stop

00:21:38.700 beating a dead horse and start feeding a fed horse. That doesn't make any sense,

00:21:43.000 but the left always wants to control our language. Then wonderful eulogies at the George Bush funeral

00:21:47.920 and a new dating app exclusively for right wingers. Sorry, ladies, I'm taken. All that and more go to

00:21:54.480 dailywire.com.

The Matt Walsh Show - December 05, 2018

Ep. 156 - Christian Artist Doesn't Know If Homosexuality Is A Sin

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