Ep. 232 - Bad Faith Arguments Abound
Episode Stats
Words per minute
186.80103
Harmful content
Misogyny
10
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Hate speech
24
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Summary
Joe Biden struggles to respect personal space. Is that a scandal that we should all care about? No, but we ll talk about it. Also, a woman gives birth to her son s child. We ll look at the lengths that people go to in order to get around biology. And here s something I really want to talk about today: Should Christians cite the Bible when arguing about cultural issues with people who don t believe in the Bible? I ll say no, and I ll explain why today on The Matt Warshaw Show.
Transcript
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Today on the Matt Wall Show, Joe Biden struggles to respect personal space.
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Is that a huge scandal that we should all care about?
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We will look at the lengths that people go to in order to get around biology.
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And here's something I really want to talk about today.
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Should Christians cite the Bible when they're arguing about cultural issues
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I will say no, and I'll explain why today on the Matt Wall Show.
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Well, here I am in beautiful Boston, Massachusetts.
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Beautiful except for all the Patriots paraphernalia muddying up the joint.
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But except for that, I'll be speaking at Boston University tonight.
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And it is at 7 o'clock, and it's free for everyone.
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So if you're in the area, you want to come out, I hope I see you there.
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It was a little bit of a precarious situation getting here, I have to admit,
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mainly from the airport to the hotel and the cab ride between those two places.
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It was about a 40-minute cab ride because of all the traffic.
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And I'm pretty sure that my cab driver was talking to himself the whole time.
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Now, he could have had an earpiece in, and he was talking to someone on the phone.
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But the thing is, he was talking so quietly, like muttering, that it's just there's no way
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that someone on the other line would be able to hear him.
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And also, he would only say something like every five minutes.
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And then I thought, well, what kind of phone conversation is that if you're only saying
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But then I remembered that, oh, wait a minute, that is every phone conversation I've ever had
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with my wife, where that's kind of how it goes.
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It's just every five minutes, I just have to mutter two or three words while she stops
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So every five minutes, I just throw in a, oh, yeah, really?
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I think Uber is sometimes a little bit too slick and clean for me.
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I think when you're in a cab, you need to have ripped seats.
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Or you need to be a little bit afraid that you're about to be ax murdered.
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So I have avoided talking about this stupid Joe Biden thing all week.
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And I'm going to cave now, I guess, finally, and address it.
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Joe Biden has a habit, as I'm sure you heard, of invading people's personal space.
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It was treated as a joke by everybody, conservatives and liberals, until recently, until he decided
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that he wanted to maybe get into the presidential race.
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And so yesterday he came out with a statement, a video, where he addressed his infringements
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In the coming month, I expect to be talking to you about a whole lot of issues.
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But today I want to talk about just as a support and encouragement that I've made to women and
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And I always try to be, in my career, I've always tried to make a human connection.
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I grab men and women by the shoulders and say, you can do this.
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And whether they're women, men, young, old, it's the way I've always been.
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It's the way I've tried to show I care about them and I'm listening.
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And over the years, knowing what I've been through, the things that I've faced, I've found
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that scores, if not hundreds of people, have come up to me and reached out for solace and
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Something, anything that may help them get through the tragedy they're going through.
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And I've never thought of politics as cold and antiseptic.
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I've always thought about connecting with people.
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I don't think he did himself any favors with that video because he just comes across as
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kind of, I mean, frankly, kind of frail and old and out of touch.
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So I think his presidential campaign has pretty much exploded on the runway.
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I mean, I don't see, it's just, there really isn't, no matter how he's polling, I just,
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there's no room for him right now in the Democratic primary, I don't think, especially with all
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I disagree with everything that he says, pretty much.
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I also think he's way, way too old to be getting into the race.
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I think the fact that he's this old and he's putting himself through this and he's humiliating
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himself this way and groveling and everything is only just shows all the more how desperate
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he is to have that power, which makes me even more determined that he should not have the
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But, and yeah, I think he's way too loose with his interpretation of what qualifies his
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And I say that as someone, especially someone like myself, I have, you know, my personal
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And unless you are a close family member, I really don't want you coming any closer than
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But to equate his hugging and touching of people, not just women, but men too, to equate that
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with sexual assault, as I've seen people doing on the left and right, is to cheapen sexual
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And it is also, it's just a lie because it's a bad faith argument.
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And what I see on social media is a lot of conservatives who are jumping on the train and saying,
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oh yeah, Joe Biden, acting like they're really offended and worried about Joe Biden.
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Someone tweeted me yesterday about how they're worried about Joe Biden around our daughter.
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I mean, first of all, when is your daughter ever going to be around Joe Biden?
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Second of all, you're not, you don't really care about it.
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You know, you're, you're, you're up at night worried.
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No, you're just pretending you're, you, because you don't like him and he's a Democrat, you
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And it really annoys me whether conservatives or liberals do it.
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In fact, it annoys me more with conservatives because these people, I guess I'm supposed to
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be on their side and, um, it's, uh, you know, it, uh, I'm, I'm not on board with it and they
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Um, they know that if Joe Biden was a Republican, they wouldn't be saying anything about this
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It doesn't matter how many pictures, there could be a million pictures of, uh, Donald Trump
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But if there were a million pictures of that, I mean, all these conservatives attacking Joe
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Biden, none of them would say a word about it and they know it.
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First of all, uh, imagine what's going through that guy's head right now, but does anyone
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think that Joe Biden was trying to do anything sexual there?
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I mean, does anyone imagine that that is, uh, that, that, that Joe Biden is coming onto this
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No, the guy has, Biden has no concept of personal space with women or men.
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I mean, Lord knows, as I said, I, I, I cherish my personal space.
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I cherish it very much, but Biden is not a sexual assaulter.
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And if you're a conservative and you're doing it, uh, I, I, you're operating in bad faith and
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With all of these people, Joe Biden included, there are so many good, solid, non-hypocritical,
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You can make against them that you don't need to do this.
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You don't need to pretend and do all the theatrics and act like a fainting, you know, you're,
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you're, you're some sort of fainting little flower.
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We, it's like, it's like flopping in basketball.
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So, uh, speaking of creepy, uh, the Daily Wire has this report, um, from, uh, Amanda,
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who, as you know, I, I plagiarize for content on a regular basis.
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It says, uh, last week, a 61-year-old woman carrying her own grand, so, okay, hold on.
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You need to pay close attention to this because it, it can get confusing.
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So, last week, a 61-year-old woman carrying her own granddaughter via a surrogacy pregnancy
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Cecil Elledge carried her gay son's daughter to term.
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The six-pound baby girl was conceived through in vitro fertilization with her son, Matthew's
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Um, and, and then it goes on from there, explaining, okay, so that's, that's all you
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So, it's a woman who carried her son's child, which was conceived with, with his sperm and
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So, her son had a baby with her husband's sister, and she carried the child to term.
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That's what's going on, if you're keeping track at home.
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It may not shock you to learn that I am not necessarily ready to applaud, um, this kind
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In fact, this would seem, how does, does this not qualify as incestuous?
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You, you're having your son's semen, um, and, and his, and his, and his husband's sister's
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eggs implanted inside you, and you're carrying his, you're carrying your son's baby.
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Um, and these are, I, I guess this is the point we take from this.
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These are the kinds of extraordinary lengths that two men have to go to in order to have
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But even then, um, the two men still cannot really have children.
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This is the child of the son and his husband's sister.
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So, when you read in the media reports about how, oh, two gay men had a baby through circus,
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well, no, they, they didn't really have a baby.
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Because, at the end of the day, you really can't get around nature.
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And, you know, that should tell you something about sex and gender, shouldn't it?
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That, no matter how progressive we get, no matter how much we reject the proper natural
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order of things, still, when it comes down to it, if you want to make a baby, um, you
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So, as much as we hear about biological sex being, uh, now it's not just gender that's
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fluid anymore, remember that, it's biological sex is also a construct.
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Well, then, why is it, um, that there is no possible way for two men to have a baby unless
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they, unless they enlist the help of, uh, you know, uh, unless they farm the job out
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to, to, to women to take care of some of the really necessary steps involved?
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As much as we want to say that, oh, you know, biological sex, it's not even a thing anymore.
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Yeah, but, you know, every single baby that has ever been conceived in the history of
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the world, or that ever will be conceived, is, um, is conceived by a man and a woman.
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And you can, man and woman, you could use, you don't have to say man and woman, you could
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Um, thing one and thing two, it doesn't, whatever you want to call them, it's just, these are
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two distinct entities, two different types of people with different but complementary, uh,
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reproductive systems, and you need that in order to make a baby, which tells you that
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biological sex is, uh, when you've got to go to those lengths to get around biological
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sex, that tells you, I think, that biological sex is definitely still a thing, and it matters.
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All right, um, moving on again, one of the, uh, the bits from my interview with Ben, um,
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with Ben on the Sunday special, uh, last week, there, there are a few bits that have gotten
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We've been talking about some of, uh, there's one part where we talked about heaven and hell,
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and so we've been, we've been discussing that, um, a lot on the show this week.
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But another part of the interview that's gotten a fair amount of attention from, uh, especially
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from conservative, uh, from Christians is when we talked about the problems with bringing
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the Bible into certain political and ideological debates.
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So let me, um, let me play a piece of that clip for you, and then we'll, we'll talk about
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When it comes to, you know, you, you write a lot about politics.
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How do you separate out talking about religion from talking about politics?
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When should you speak in sort of a religious moral sense?
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And when should you speak in a kind of a secular sense when, when you're trying to make an
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I can't say that I always do the best job of it.
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Um, but I do know that when it comes to these great moral issues in our society, like abortion,
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marriage, uh, you know, gender, um, that we have to be able to engage on the
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issues without throwing the Bible at people, especially if we're talking to people who
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Uh, because when you try to go the biblical route, you're talking to someone who doesn't
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Well, then you've just put an extra step in your way, which is first you have to get
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them to believe the Bible, which is a whole different conversation and a pretty, pretty
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Instead, you have to talk about these funds, natural law, these fundamental moral truths
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that you have to try to connect with them on and also logic and reason.
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It's something like, uh, I always cringe when I hear, when the topic is something like
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transgenderism and, uh, I hear a Christian say, you know, quote Genesis or something and
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say, well, God, male and female, he created them.
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I say, yes, that's true, but we don't even, you don't need to bring Genesis into this.
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It is a very basic, logical distinction between you got men here, women here, men have penises.
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Uh, so, you know, you should be able to explain that without quoting Genesis.
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And, um, you also give, I think your listener an easy out because then they're going to say,
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Um, or, uh, they'll say that, well, you know, you only disagree with abortion because you're
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Christian or you only, you're only saying that because you're Christian when really
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no, even if I was not a Christian, I still would say it's not okay to kill babies.
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So quite a few Christians have scolded me for, um, for making this, this point saying
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So, um, a guy by the name of Cy 10 Bruggenkate, who is a Christian apologist, uh, you can find
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He, he wrote an article attacking me for this segment, um, and for, I guess the whole interview.
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And I guess apparently he just doesn't really like me in general.
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Several people, several people sent me this article on his, on his blog, I guess, um, telling
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me that, that Cy 10 Bruggenkate is criticizing me again.
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Anyway, uh, Cy, along with many other Christians, if my emails are any indication, really do think
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that you can throw the Bible at anyone in any discussion and it will always be an effective
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Uh, so here's part of what he says in his article criticizing me.
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I'll just read some of it because I think this is kind of representative of this point
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He says, imagine if someone were to attack Matt and his family and Matt pointed a gun
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Now imagine that the attacker shouted, I don't believe in your gun.
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Does anyone think that Matt would worry about the extra step of getting the attacker to believe
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Would Matt throw down his weapon based on the objection of his attacker?
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Yet that is exactly what Mr. Walsh says he would do when arguing with a person who didn't believe
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I mean, this, that analogy is so bad on so many levels that I, I'll get to, I'll get
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to that in a minute, but that is such a bad analogy.
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Um, so, uh, anyway, uh, so does anyone, yeah, that is exactly what Mr. Walsh says he would
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do when arguing with a person who didn't believe in the Bible.
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Surely Ben wouldn't let Matt get away with such a ludicrous position.
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Because Ben holds the exact same position, uh, on February 6th, 2017, in the Q and A session
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after his talk at Ferris State University, Mr. Shapiro stated, I never cite to the Bible.
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The reason I don't cite to the Bible is because that's an argument from authority.
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You may not believe the authority to which I'm citing.
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This is, uh, that was Ben quote unquote back to size.
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He says, this is a terrible understanding of the argument from authority fallacy.
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If the authority you are citing is not an actual authority.
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It can, it can be fallacious, even if it is an authority.
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If Matt and Ben were working on a car and they ran into some problem they could not solve,
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I'm pretty sure that if Matt cited the service manual for the solution, Ben would not deem
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Matt states that he always cringes when the topic of transgenderism comes up and he hears
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Um, he says that while this is true, you don't need to bring Genesis into this.
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Um, well, you heard that part, but he says, well, as Ben knows, you can't even get logic
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But even so, if rationality is arbitrary, why should anyone comport to the other person's
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Um, he says, now Ben, Ben Shapiro, Matt Walsh are not stupid men.
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The fact that they do not see their absurdity is troubling.
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Even more troubling is the high percentage of positive comments under the video clip.
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This is what happens when you give up the God of the Bible as both Matt and Ben have
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done, not only in their argumentation, but in their worldviews.
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The reason the quote gods of Matt Walsh and Ben Shapiro can't end abortion is because
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Uh, and then he goes on, uh, you know, it's saying, implying that I'm a heretic because
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I'm a Catholic, um, and, uh, then says that there's so many other problems with what I
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Um, and, uh, basically, and then he, oh, he also says I'm a non-Christian.
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So I'm not going to get hung up on the particulars here.
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And, um, I'm abandoning the authority of the scriptures, uh, which is all of this.
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These are just inflammatory straw men, uh, and a very disappointing and weak lines of
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Uh, this is someone who argues for a living and this is the best they can do, which only
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further convinces me as I've been convinced for a while that we need better apologists.
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It's a big problem really in a, in a, in American Christianity that, um, we don't have a lot of good,
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we have a lot of really bad apologists who make arguments that are utterly laughable,
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um, and get laughed off of every stage they walk onto because of exactly this kind of thing.
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And there are a few good ones out there, um, but we need better, we need more good ones.
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So what you find here is straw manning, distortions, uh, abysmal arguments coming from a guy who,
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And the analogy with the gun was really, really, really bad.
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Um, he says that when I don't use the Bible to argue with an atheist about abortion on
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the basis that the atheist doesn't acknowledge the authority of the Bible, so the argument
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It's like if I don't use a gun against an attacker because the attacker doesn't believe
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Well, the difference there is that the gun is a physical object which shoots physical
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And those physical bullets will kill you whether you believe in them or not.
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And trying to persuade someone is not the same as shooting them.
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And it tells you all you need to know that Psy here equates persuasion with shooting a
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Now, you see, if you're trying to actually persuade someone, if you want to connect with
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someone and persuade them, then your arguments need to be more than just true.
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They need to be convincing to the person you are presenting them to.
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You need to connect with them using language they understand.
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Um, and that's the only way to convince anyone of anything.
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You're not going to convince anyone of anything if you're appealing to an authority they don't
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You may convince spectators of your biblical knowledge.
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But as for the person you are ostensibly trying to persuade, who apparently is really just
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a prop for you to show off your piety, as for that person, you have failed them.
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Arguing with an atheist by appealing to the Bible is like arguing with an English-speaking
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person, um, uh, but articulating your arguments in Chinese, okay?
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I mean, you might be dropping straight, profound knowledge on this, but you might be making
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But they can't understand what the hell you're saying.
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I mean, everyone else will, again, will be impressed that you know Chinese.
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Everyone's going to say, wow, this guy knows Chinese.
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But that person who you're talking to, you've done nothing for them because they didn't
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Um, or it's, uh, another analogy, better analogy would be if, uh, and by the way, being
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able to present a, a, a cogent analogy is a, is a, is another, uh, you know, important
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Um, so it's like if you're, if you're a quantum physicist arguing with someone about
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science and you use a bunch of words and concepts and language that,
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nobody outside of your field of expertise could possibly understand.
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You may be right about what you're saying, but you have not convinced the person you're
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So if you're trying to convince a secular person, for instance, that sex is not changeable,
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that a man can't be a woman just because he wants to be, you can go one of two ways as
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Uh, one, you can appeal to science, to logic, to reason, which are all true, thus godly.
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And then you can hopefully connect with him by appealing to those authorities, which he
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And honestly, if you may as well literally throw the book at him, if you're going to
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start quoting Genesis at that point, because it will be just as effective, um, because it
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is a book he doesn't believe in and you're giving him the chance to escape to, I mean,
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You, you, you, you, I mean, you're sitting, you're made in the shade right now in terms of
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making an argument because this is someone who is claiming that a guy with a penis can
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I mean, there are so many ways to deal with that, but, but, but if you would pick up,
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well, it says here in Genesis, uh, chapter one, I mean, you somehow managed to fail in
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It's astounding because you've given this person a chance to escape, to maintain their
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And, and, and now where you had them, you had them again, you had their back against
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I mean, there was no escaping the argument that you could have made, but now you've
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thrown Genesis and you gave them an escape hatch because now what they're going to do,
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they're going to say, oh yeah, well, yeah, but Genesis says that the earth existed before
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the rest of the universe, which modern cosmology tells us obviously is not true.
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Now you've trans gender and all that, that's all gone.
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Now you're arguing about biblical cosmology instead.
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Uh, I think that there are ways of understanding that, um, uh, you know, that are, that are
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consistent with, with scientific truth, but that's not the argument.
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You, you, you, now you have to have that, now you have to first argue about biblical cosmology,
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um, convince them of that, good luck, and then you can get back to transgenderism.
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Um, so I don't know, that will only take about four or five years.
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Another example, you're arguing with a secular person about abortion.
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You can either try to prove that babies are human scientifically and people, and thus killing
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And, uh, you can tell this person that the, uh, so you could do that, you know, that could
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You say, look, you start with the basic premise that they agree with.
00:25:24.780
Um, okay, now all you have to do is demonstrate why this is murder, which you do not need the
00:25:35.780
So you could do that, or you could tell them that the Bible says murder is wrong, which is
00:25:44.000
Because the person, you, you, you haven't actually convinced the person that abortion is murder,
00:25:49.140
and you also haven't convinced them, but you would have to convince them that the Bible
00:25:58.300
Um, the idea that we should never talk about, that we should never talk about innate fundamental
00:26:03.060
moral truths and scientific truths without quoting the Bible first, even if we're talking
00:26:08.880
to someone who doesn't believe in the Bible, is just so incredibly shallow and childish
00:26:13.060
and foolhardy and counterproductive that I can't even wrap my head around how anyone
00:26:20.080
Um, like, do you really not understand the fact that you will not convince anyone by appealing
00:26:24.640
to an authority that they don't recognize as an authority?
00:26:28.120
Do you really not understand that in order to appeal to an authority, you first have to
00:26:32.560
establish that authority as an authority with, which with respect to the Bible is a whole
00:26:37.060
different conversation and one that will take you a million miles away from the original
00:26:42.460
And do you not see why that is counterproductive when there are other authorities, truthful
00:26:47.500
authorities, God ordained authorities, um, like logic and science that you could appeal
00:26:53.640
to in which the other person ostensibly actually does recognize, but you've decided that it's
00:26:59.340
never okay to have a, to have a logical argument or a scientific argument.
00:27:05.120
Well, again, that may make you look pious, that may impress your Christian friends and good
00:27:11.340
You will never convince anyone who is not already convinced.
00:27:14.680
And all you're doing is serving yourself rather than serving truth and shedding light.
00:27:21.000
Um, by the way, how would you convince someone that it's raining outside?
00:27:26.740
Um, what if you go in, you go in a house, you tell someone it's raining outside and they
00:27:34.700
Do you launch into a theological explanation, quoting Bible verses, proving that God made
00:27:39.960
the rain and that God also says, don't lie, thus establishing that your claim of it raining
00:27:46.560
And also, uh, you should be trusted because you wouldn't tell a lie because God told you
00:27:49.640
not to, or would you just pull up the curtain and point out the window?
00:27:54.080
Which of those tacks would you take to prove that to someone that it's raining?
00:27:58.180
Uh, oh, well, no, you would just point out the window, right?
00:28:00.400
Oh, well then you're a fake Christian, you fake Christian, you deny the Bible, heretic.
1.00
00:28:07.440
By the way, how do you convince someone who doesn't believe in the Bible that they should
00:28:15.400
Um, do you tell them that the Bible says they should believe in the Bible?
00:28:19.240
Is that because now I, I know that again, I have heard Christians argue for the authority
1.00
00:28:26.080
of the Bible that way by appealing back to the Bible.
00:28:30.860
And those Christians, again, have never convinced anyone of anything ever because that is circular
1.00
00:28:39.740
Um, you cannot make an argument by just restating your premise in a different form.
00:28:47.460
Uh, if you can't make arguments outside of the Bible, then it's impossible to ever get
00:28:53.880
anyone to believe the Bible because you're reduced to this kind of circular reasoning.
00:28:58.880
The Bible should be believed because the Bible says it should be believed.
00:29:01.860
Yeah, but why should I believe that the Bible said what the Bible says about how, about the
00:29:10.580
Um, shouting the Bible says it over and over again will not do anything.
00:29:15.840
You have to be able to launch a defense of the Bible that goes beyond quoting the Bible.
00:29:24.860
If you want to convince anyone of any proposition, you will not do it by repeating the proposition
00:29:33.200
If you want to convince someone that an elephant is a mammal, which it is, uh, you will not win
00:29:38.660
that argument by just screaming, elephants are mammals because elephants are mammals.
00:29:44.280
What you're saying is true and what you're arguing for is true.
00:29:47.640
And, but somehow you've managed to botch this case.
00:29:51.160
I mean, there, there are so many ways that you could explain how an elephant is a mammal,
00:29:55.420
but you've decided to just start to just shout that phrase over and over again.
00:29:59.420
So, um, this kind of approach is, uh, is, as I said, it's, it's convincing only to Christians
1.00
00:30:06.580
And I have, uh, and this is something that I know that's why I say that, you know, there
00:30:09.840
are a lot of very weak apologists out there today, uh, working because I think, um, for
00:30:17.100
many of them, their whole shtick is just to convince people who are already convinced.
00:30:23.180
Um, they're not even really attempting to provide arguments that may be compelling to
00:30:29.780
And, uh, uh, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's sad.
00:30:38.780
Uh, it's, it's, especially when, I mean, Christianity has such a rich intellectual tradition of, of
00:30:48.640
brilliant people, um, making brilliant scientific and philosophical cases for things and explaining
00:31:03.080
It's been reduced to, well, men are men are men because the Bible says so.
00:31:20.980
MattWallShow at gmail.com, MattWallShow at gmail.com.
00:31:27.300
I have such a deep appreciation for your bold approach to the hard questions.
00:31:30.400
I will admit, I don't necessarily agree with all the points you make, but your ability to
00:31:35.720
I think the outrage you receive is due to us being a society that is afraid to think about
00:31:43.520
We want to put God in a box that we can label and understand as challenging as it is for me to
00:31:50.480
Um, I feel it is a good practice to sit and reflect and ponder and search.
00:31:54.000
And it's totally valid to come to the other side and say, I still don't know, but I trust
00:31:59.280
Further, I can take my reflections and seek input from others without accepting their views
00:32:02.720
fully nor ripping them to pieces for having a difference of opinion.
00:32:06.520
I'm afraid it really comes down to knowing that I am in fact, not God, despite my claims
00:32:13.400
Um, and that was a joke as a, uh, it was a good joke.
00:32:16.860
I just, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't deliver it.
00:32:18.340
Well, as a stay at home mom, homeschooling, uh, mom, I appreciate your deep thinking on
00:32:24.180
Um, your videos accompany me as I prepare dinner for my family each night.
00:32:27.160
Uh, and, uh, anyway, I appreciate the, I won't go on reading all the compliments to
00:32:35.820
Uh, the thing that interests me with that email is what you said there in the middle.
00:32:38.520
Um, and I agree with you that relates to what I was just talking about, that, um, there
00:32:45.680
is, and this, this I think is largely a modern phenomenon in Christianity.
00:32:50.320
There is among a lot of people, this sort of allergy, uh, to deep and difficult questions.
00:32:59.180
And they just, they don't want to deal with them.
00:33:02.340
They don't want to hear anyone try to deal with them.
00:33:07.260
And, uh, all they want is just pick out a few Bible verses, shout those at the problem
00:33:15.500
That's all they want for, for a lot of, not everybody, but for a lot of people.
00:33:18.180
And, uh, so I appreciate that you, uh, feel differently.
00:33:24.840
And, and, and yes, we have to, um, there is no shame in being troubled by certain questions.
00:33:34.180
There's no shame in being troubled by some things you read in the Bible.
00:33:38.660
Uh, and I think you have to, it takes intellectual integrity and courage to walk up to those questions
00:33:44.020
and, uh, and those doubts and to look them in the, in the face.
00:33:56.940
And I thought it was, uh, I, I, I am not, as I've said before, I'm not a huge fan of
00:34:02.260
superhero movies, but I've been excited for this project all along.
00:34:07.200
And I don't know, you know, when it was first announced, people doubted it, but this is
00:34:14.240
I, and I, I say that about very few movies because with most movies, there's always a
00:34:20.500
And usually it is, but Joaquin Phoenix, uh, in my mind is the best actor working in Hollywood.
00:34:26.160
He's certainly the most interesting actor, um, in Hollywood and just making him the Joker.
00:34:31.060
It's like, uh, you know, it's, it's, it is a match made in, in heaven or maybe not heaven,
00:34:39.740
I think it's going to be a really interesting movie.
00:34:47.180
You, you, uh, today you said hell is devoid of people that love.
00:34:50.180
I guess what immediately came to mind was I bet Hitler loved his family.
00:34:54.480
Yet I would like to think he still went to hell and vice versa.
00:34:57.900
What about a father that has a child murdered and hates the person who did, who did, who did
00:35:03.600
Would he not go to heaven for having hate in his heart for that man?
00:35:07.440
Um, also it was brought up how some Christians believe that you get to heaven just by believing
00:35:13.240
I don't think this is true because then you could have murderers and rapists that believe
00:35:19.640
I am the way, the truth, and the light, uh, the life.
00:35:23.220
No one goes to the father, but through me is that is that Jesus will judge all men's hearts
00:35:28.600
He alone will determine who will go to the father.
00:35:30.900
Um, so yeah, Mike, I, well, first of all, I think there are probably,
00:35:40.500
In fact, I'm quite sure of it, that there are murderers and rapists in heaven, uh, who
00:35:45.740
And that is, uh, you know, look at the story of the penitent thief, but well, we don't
00:35:51.140
know if he was actually a murderer, but he was certainly a criminal repented at the, at
00:35:55.400
And I, I like to think that there are many stories like that.
00:35:58.860
And I'm sure there are, um, I just want to pick out one thing from your email to respond
00:36:03.380
to what you said about, well, I'm sure Hitler loved his family.
00:36:09.160
I mean, I have no idea who Hitler loved, if he loved anyone, but I would guess that Hitler
0.98
00:36:19.080
And, and this is an important point because as we've, as we've talked about this over
00:36:22.640
the week, I mean, I, and I have made this point about, uh, if someone really has love
00:36:27.200
in their heart, if someone is really a loving person, I don't see how they could go to hell
00:36:30.820
because of the, uh, not, you know, not just moral complications with that, but also the
00:36:38.560
Um, but a lot of people, as they've been listening to this discussion, they have interpreted
00:36:43.920
me as being sort of a, uh, a universalist, someone who's, who believes in universal salvation.
00:36:50.460
Because if all you have to do is love someone, then I mean, we're all, we're all in.
00:36:59.820
And actually, let's say that I was right and who knows if I am and, you know, loving people
00:37:08.780
Uh, that by no means would necessitate that hell is a sparsely populated place.
00:37:22.780
Um, because I also think that there are a lot of people in this world today and who have
00:37:28.140
lived throughout history who never loved anyone.
00:37:29.960
In fact, loving someone is a difficult thing to do.
00:37:34.340
Uh, and it takes, if, if we are, again, talking about agape love, real love, not just emotional
00:37:43.560
I'm sure Hitler felt affection towards some people in his way.
00:37:46.920
Um, and everyone feels affection to some degree.
00:37:50.060
That doesn't mean anything, but love is the, you know, it is, it is the giving of yourself
00:38:06.440
And I think, yes, there are a lot of people who never loved anyone, including their own
00:38:12.340
Um, so by no means do I think that if it's true that loving people can't go to hell, that
00:38:21.960
I think it means that there are a lot of people who are not loving.
00:38:24.360
And going back to the great divorce, uh, which kind of started all this, that's one of the
00:38:31.460
things that I found really compelling about that book is Lewis was able to illustrate how
00:38:41.260
it is that a, you know, a normal, a seemingly normal, seemingly decent kind of person could
00:38:49.900
Uh, there's one scene where, uh, uh, a mother comes up from hell and is at the, you know,
00:38:59.060
And, um, she's demanding that her son who is in heaven, um, be essentially kicked out of
00:39:05.980
heaven so that she can, so he can go back to hell with her.
0.99
00:39:10.080
And as the conversation develops, you see that, well, this woman, she's not a serial killer.
00:39:15.840
I mean, she's, she wouldn't appear to be some sort of monstrous person.
00:39:18.580
She would probably seem, if you ran into her on the street, she would seem perfectly normal
0.67
00:39:22.580
and polite, but she is completely devoid of love, even for her own son, even to the point
00:39:27.780
where she would rather her son be in hell with her, uh, because for her, it is all about her.
00:39:36.540
Her son is just, her love for her son is all about making herself feel good.
00:39:44.920
And I think that's the case for a lot of people.
00:39:48.980
Uh, let's see, uh, from Nathan says, Matt, um, kind of a personal question, but do you
00:39:56.960
have a favorite passage or story in the Bible that resonates especially with you?
00:40:06.240
I always love the story in Luke where Jesus, um, uh, where the, the story in Luke, uh, of
00:40:14.920
the, the penitent thief or Luke is the only one though.
00:40:21.580
Um, Luke is the only one that has the story of the penitent thief.
00:40:26.100
And, uh, I've always found that to be extremely powerful.
00:40:29.980
It's a very short story, but when you imagine that combination of, uh, of pain and agony,
00:40:39.760
but then joy that, that thief, that condemned person must've felt in that moment, uh, I find
00:40:48.380
And also it is such a perfect illustration of repentance where, yeah, the thief repented
00:40:57.860
and he was sorry for what he did, but that didn't mean he was going to escape earthly suffering.
00:41:04.260
So it's not a get out of jail free card, um, repenting.
00:41:13.200
And then Jesus made him poof away and go to heaven.
0.98
00:41:15.660
No, it's, you still are going to have to die here and it's going to be painful.
00:41:24.800
And yet through that suffering, um, at the end of it lies, uh, paradise.
00:41:33.940
I just, that's the one that, especially around, um, Easter time, I always think about.
00:41:38.200
Uh, from, let's see, I'm going to do one more here.
00:41:42.020
Uh, okay, let's, this one, this one isn't, uh, isn't biblical related from Dustin.
00:41:50.420
I saw a tweet thread written by a guy whose wife was fired from her job because he was,
00:41:56.180
he was on the sex offender registry after getting caught with child porn 13 years ago.
00:42:00.420
I think this is extremely unjust, but it got me to thinking punishing the wife is wrong,
00:42:09.980
If he did his time, why keep him on the registry?
00:42:12.820
Whatever happened to forgiveness and rehabilitation?
00:42:15.480
Uh, yeah, I have no idea what, what tweet thread this is referring to.
00:42:21.500
I think, uh, I think first we should all be able to agree that firing a woman because
1.00
00:42:28.240
of a crime that her husband committed a decade ago is unjust.
00:42:32.920
As for the husband, I do actually think that we should get rid of the sex offender registry.
00:42:37.980
Uh, I, I think the sex offender registry is a counterproductive concept and it, and it
00:42:48.700
If somebody is judged to still be a threat to society.
00:42:54.120
So especially when we're talking about what I guess will be classified as the tier one
00:42:57.740
sex offenders, people who are high risk for reoffending.
00:43:02.480
Well, um, no, those people shouldn't be on a sex offender registry because they should
00:43:11.940
In other words, if you, if someone is so dangerous that you feel that the neighbors have
00:43:16.880
to be warned that this person just moved into town and that they can't be allowed within
00:43:21.020
500 yards of a school or a playground, then that is someone who shouldn't be out of prison.
00:43:26.120
I mean, that is literally why we have prisons for people like that.
00:43:29.900
But if someone is, is not considered a danger and, uh, and, uh, whoever, whatever the case
00:43:38.360
may be, um, someone is, is judged that they really are not a danger and that they have
00:43:44.900
been rehabilitated or whatever, then, uh, then again, there's no reason for them to be on
00:43:49.200
Um, they should be allowed to return to their life.
00:43:51.100
So, so either way, uh, this person is a, is a danger or he's not.
00:43:57.900
And if he's not, then, um, what's the point of the sex offender registry in the first place?
00:44:02.980
And I, I don't know anything about this case, but, um, uh, I, I have heard plenty of cases
00:44:10.380
of people ending up on the sex offender registry, you know, crazy things like someone, uh, you
00:44:15.940
know, has a 19 year old guy has, uh, sexual relations with his 17 year old girlfriend
00:44:22.400
and ends up on the sex offender registry for 15 years.
00:44:31.860
And I think if you got rid of it and just said, all right, if whoever's a danger, they're
00:44:37.100
going to prison, everyone else, we treat them like anyone else.
00:44:43.620
I mean, it's crazy to me when you look at the sex offender.
00:44:45.940
Registry, um, in your, in your town, which, uh, which I, you should do, you'll see all
00:44:54.360
of these cases where, where it says like high risk offenders.
00:45:00.720
You're telling me that there is a high probability that he will sexually abuse someone.
00:45:11.320
So I think the laws need to be changed there and we will, uh, leave it there on that note.
00:45:19.800
I'm Michael Knowles, host of the Michael Knowles show.
00:45:38.000
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