The Matt Walsh Show - January 13, 2020


Ep. 403 - Worse Than A Slippery Slope


Episode Stats


Length

54 minutes

Words per minute

170.7155

Word count

9,330

Sentence count

619

Harmful content

Misogyny

5

sentences flagged

Hate speech

24

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Joseph Goldbrick was arrested in 2018 for child sexual abuse. During the search of his home in Grand Rapids, Michigan, police recovered child pornography from his computer. But that wasn t all; police found more than 50 illicit images that included actual victims known to the police.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.480 Okay, another great week. Welcome, welcome everybody. Welcome to another week. I hope
00:00:06.220 you had a wonderful, joy-filled weekend. Mine, sadly, was mired by the fact that for some
00:00:12.920 reason I'm a football fan, a Ravens fan even worse. And of course they lost. To put it
00:00:18.600 mildly, they lost in the divisional round of the playoffs. And the thing is, I was emotionally
00:00:22.920 devastated. I was tormented, traumatized, broken, ruined, which is basically how I feel at the end
00:00:31.140 of every football season, except for the two where we went to the Super Bowl and won. But then there's
00:00:36.140 this moment the next day, and any sports fan I think can probably relate to this. There's a moment
00:00:42.080 the next day, maybe two days later, after the season is over, and it feels like you're waking
00:00:47.920 up from hypnosis or something. And I always think, you know, a couple days later, after I have a
00:00:53.720 little bit of distance, I think, why do I care so much about this again? Why do I have emotional
00:01:00.040 capital invested in the outcome of a game played between people I don't even know? Like, what
00:01:06.900 difference, how would my life be improved if my favorite team won a championship in the sport that
00:01:13.840 I like? How is my life damaged when they don't? Why does any of this matter to me? And I can't
00:01:21.040 answer those questions. I really can't. I don't know why it matters. Except to say that I think
00:01:25.100 being a sports fan is a form of psychosis. I think it could be diagnosed. I'm sure eventually it will
00:01:30.240 be diagnosed. In fact, I'm sure eventually the psychiatric industry will come up with a pill.
00:01:37.280 They've come up with a pill for everything else. So they'll come up with a pill to cure
00:01:40.900 sports fan-itis. And you know what? When they come up with that pill, I will take it because it's
00:01:47.320 just, it's not worth it. It really isn't. I wish I didn't care about sports. I could, you know,
00:01:51.600 I could get my Sundays back. I could start, I don't know, gardening or something. I don't know. I'd
00:01:56.340 figure out something to do at the time, but it's, it's just better than sitting there caring so much
00:02:01.460 about this nonsense. All right. Speaking of psychosis, we have to begin on a Monday with,
00:02:10.640 unfortunately, not the kind of story you want to start your week with, but I think it's important.
00:02:17.100 So there's this guy in Michigan, pedophile, is going to be spending the next 10 to 20 years in
00:02:22.940 prison after being caught with child pornography. Now in court, he offered two defenses of his behavior
00:02:30.360 and the defenses fortunately were not successful, but they are kind of interesting. One, he said that
00:02:37.500 child pornography is protected under the first amendment. Two, he claimed that he himself,
00:02:43.440 though he is a, I think, 45 year old man, he claimed that he's really an eight year old girl.
00:02:49.040 So let's take a look at a report done by the local ABC affiliate down in, over in Grand Rapids,
00:02:55.060 Michigan, where this case happened. Here's a, there's their, their report on this watch.
00:03:00.800 Joseph Goldbrick argued that his drawings and computer images did not constitute child pornography.
00:03:07.760 Now, during a recent court appearance, he even compared his felony child porn convictions
00:03:12.600 to the horrors of Auschwitz.
00:03:16.020 I have always been an eight year old girl and even my drawings and fantasies, I am always an eight year old girl.
00:03:21.440 Bizarre statements in a case that was unique to say the least.
00:03:26.360 Joseph Goldbrick was arrested back in 2018 for child sexually abusive material found on his home computer.
00:03:33.360 Now that came amid an investigation into a runaway 17 year old girl from Ohio.
00:03:38.680 He had a minor runaway at the house.
00:03:40.520 During the search of Goldbrick's home on Pine Avenue Northwest in Grand Rapids,
00:03:44.620 police recovered child pornography from his computer.
00:03:47.360 Goldbrick contends it was not real child porn, but rather computer animated.
00:03:52.740 And Goldbrick says he identifies as an eight year old girl.
00:03:57.340 Whenever we did this, there were adults having sex with me in and on my form as an eight year old girl.
00:04:05.080 Kent County Assistant Prosecutor Dan Helmer says more than 50 illicit images were on Goldbrick's computer.
00:04:12.040 They included actual victims known to police.
00:04:15.260 But that wasn't all.
00:04:17.640 Even during the trial, the defendant continues to draw drawings by them to be saying the problem about raising babies in the Kent County Jail.
00:04:26.060 Okay, so the judge was not convinced by that excuse.
00:04:32.140 And he shouldn't be, obviously, because it's insane.
00:04:36.260 But, based on the precedent in place, the precedent of accepting the self-identification of a person who claims, you know, a man who claims to be a female.
00:04:48.780 Well, we have to accept that self-identification.
00:04:53.960 In other words, if you're going to accept that a man can be a woman, 0.74
00:04:58.660 exactly on what basis do you reject his claim to being an eight year old girl?
00:05:05.420 See, that's the problem.
00:05:06.440 So, if you're going to do the first thing, if you're going to say, yeah, this biological male is a woman in some mysterious sense,
00:05:15.480 then why can't he in the same sort of mysterious sense really be an eight year old girl or a 12 year old boy or whatever he wants to be?
00:05:26.600 So, we know in this case, according to left-wing gender theory, which is now mainstream gender theory,
00:05:34.880 promoted by the media and Hollywood and academia and everywhere else, corporations.
00:05:40.920 So, we know that we can't reject this scumbag's claim to being a female.
00:05:45.120 That part he's allowed to have, right?
00:05:46.780 We have no basis.
00:05:47.700 If he says that he's a female, then we have to just give him that, don't we? 0.99
00:05:52.280 The fact that he's a creepy old bald dude is irrelevant.
00:05:55.520 He says he's a female and so he is.
00:05:57.420 That's the way it goes.
00:05:59.500 What about age, though?
00:06:01.440 Well, remember, by the way, we've seen this before.
00:06:03.740 There was that, a few years ago, there was that 50 plus year old man who left his family,
00:06:08.320 left his wife and kid to live as a six year old girl.
00:06:12.120 Maybe you remember that case.
00:06:14.900 Maybe you've blocked it out of your head, probably a better thing to do.
00:06:18.720 But on what basis do we reject their claims to being young girls
00:06:23.320 if we accept the idea that a man can be a woman?
00:06:27.740 See, we can't say, well, as sane and reasonable people,
00:06:33.280 our response when a 45-year-old man says he's an eight-year-old girl,
00:06:38.060 we could say, well, he's just not.
00:06:41.220 He's physically not an eight-year-old girl in any sense of the word,
00:06:45.300 so that claim is nonsense.
00:06:46.500 We can reject it on that basis.
00:06:49.060 It is just factually, biologically, chronologically, physically, in every sense untrue.
00:06:56.160 And therefore, it's untrue.
00:06:59.080 But the problem is that same argument also disqualifies any man who claims to be a woman
00:07:05.040 because we can look at them and see that they are biologically, physically,
00:07:08.980 chromosomally, you know, hormonally, in every sense, a male.
00:07:15.620 And so, therefore, that's what they are.
00:07:17.320 It's just not true that they're a woman.
00:07:20.240 But if we're not, if we can't do that,
00:07:23.400 if we can't look at someone physically and make these determinations
00:07:26.720 based on science and biology,
00:07:30.220 then, again, we're left with the same problem.
00:07:34.460 How do we disqualify someone who says that they're a child
00:07:38.560 when they're really an adult?
00:07:39.760 Because we've already established that physical and biological realities are irrelevant.
00:07:47.500 And we can't say, well, gender is fluid, but age is not.
00:07:52.340 First of all, gender is not actually fluid.
00:07:54.620 There's just two of them, biologically speaking.
00:07:56.680 There aren't any others.
00:07:58.140 It is a binary system.
00:08:00.460 We just pretend that it's not binary, that it's fluid.
00:08:04.500 So, why can't we do the same with age?
00:08:07.260 In fact, here's the thing.
00:08:08.700 Age actually is fluid, in a sense.
00:08:11.880 In the sense that nobody stays one age forever.
00:08:15.040 I'm a 33-year-old man now.
00:08:16.860 I'm not going to be a 33-year-old man two years from now.
00:08:19.200 I'm still going to be a man, but I won't be 33 anymore.
00:08:23.820 I wasn't a 12-year-old boy forever.
00:08:25.660 I was only that for one year, right?
00:08:27.540 So, age does change.
00:08:29.200 Moreover, a man who says that he feels like a woman has no frame of reference.
00:08:35.300 He's never been a woman, and therefore he doesn't know what it's like to feel like one.
00:08:40.900 And so, whatever feelings he's having, he has no way of knowing if those are actually woman feelings.
00:08:45.400 And so, therefore, it becomes this circular logic, where he says he is a woman because he feels like one.
00:08:49.820 Well, how does he know that he feels like one?
00:08:51.080 Because he is one, right?
00:08:52.320 It's a circle.
00:08:52.840 It doesn't make any sense.
00:08:53.660 But with age, at least an adult who claims to feel like a child, whatever that means, can at least say that he has some frame of reference.
00:09:01.500 He was, at one point, a child, so he sort of knows what that feels like.
00:09:05.380 Moreover, we know that there are psychological and neurological conditions that cause adults to essentially have the brain of a child.
00:09:14.760 That is a thing that happens.
00:09:16.500 There are people who are severely mentally delayed, and even though their body is that of an adult, they have the mind of a child. 0.53
00:09:26.600 So, therefore, claiming to be a child stuck in an adult's body actually can have some truth to it.
00:09:34.540 Whereas claiming to be a woman stuck in a man's body just has no truth to it whatsoever.
00:09:38.940 However, now, I don't think that's the case for this scumbag, who, by the way, should be going to prison for life, not just for 10 years or 20 years.
00:09:50.620 But I'm just trying to make the point here that trans age actually has a better scientific basis and is more justifiable than transgenderism.
00:10:01.760 It's still BS.
00:10:03.180 It's still bogus.
00:10:04.300 It's still nonsense.
00:10:05.980 It's still madness.
00:10:07.600 But if you're going to accept transgenderism, there just is no logical and coherent argument for rejecting trans ageism.
00:10:18.480 There just isn't.
00:10:20.260 Whatever argument you make against the claim that an adult can identify as a child would apply, would even more so apply to the claims that a man can be a woman.
00:10:32.440 So you have to choose.
00:10:34.680 It's as simple as that.
00:10:35.860 And this is not a slippery slope argument because I'm not talking about slopes, you know, about one thing, one thing leading to a more extreme thing.
00:10:44.920 That's not what I'm saying.
00:10:45.600 I'm not saying that transgenderism is leading to or will lead to the more extreme case of an adult claiming to be a child.
00:10:56.200 What I'm saying is that transgenderism is already a more extreme thing than trans ageism and trans racialism, by the way, for that matter. 0.93
00:11:07.040 I'm saying that those things are higher up on the slope.
00:11:11.220 And if we're on this slippery slope into crazyville, you know, you've got trans ageism and trans racialism like somewhere around here on the slope. 0.52
00:11:19.320 And then transgenderism is like down here. 0.95
00:11:21.300 Because it makes less sense than these other things over here.
00:11:27.460 Or, you know, in fact, putting slopes aside entirely.
00:11:30.020 Basically, this is really a question of categories.
00:11:33.320 There are certain things about yourself that you can change.
00:11:38.360 Your hairstyle.
00:11:40.000 Your weight.
00:11:41.860 You can learn a new language.
00:11:44.300 Your personality can change.
00:11:46.440 And it does for everybody to some extent.
00:11:48.940 These things are, in some sense, fluid.
00:11:51.860 They change.
00:11:52.840 They can be adjusted.
00:11:53.680 You can choose to make changes to them.
00:11:58.100 But then there are other things that you cannot choose to change.
00:12:02.860 Because they're simply facts about you.
00:12:05.680 They just are.
00:12:07.340 Your sex. 0.99
00:12:08.360 Your race.
00:12:09.200 Your age.
00:12:10.340 My point is this.
00:12:12.400 If you're going to extract anything from that second category of unchangeable things and try to put it into the first,
00:12:20.440 then everything else in that category comes with it.
00:12:26.900 Because the logic that keeps one thing in that category keeps everything there.
00:12:32.200 And if we're abandoning that logic, then there is no basis anymore to keep anything in that category.
00:12:37.720 And now we have to say that that category doesn't exist.
00:12:41.140 The category of things that you can't change about yourself now simply doesn't exist.
00:12:46.660 You can change everything.
00:12:48.060 Especially when it comes to sex.
00:12:53.980 Because, in fact, your sex is the thing that most belongs in the second category. 0.73
00:12:58.840 It is the most unchangeable thing about you.
00:13:01.580 It is the brutest of brute facts.
00:13:04.500 Your age will change on its own.
00:13:06.800 Your race can be a mix of many different things.
00:13:09.700 But your sex just is. 0.94
00:13:11.760 If that, if that of all things is now relative, then so is everything else.
00:13:18.860 And that's the problem here.
00:13:25.060 So what the left will do, because they haven't even really gotten to the point yet where they're accepting transracialism, maybe a little bit.
00:13:35.460 I think we see movement in that direction, but they're not there yet.
00:13:38.460 They certainly aren't accepting trans-ageism, but they've already made the arguments for it. 0.98
00:13:47.300 And this is what we see with the left a lot.
00:13:48.920 Where they make a certain argument because they're trying to justify one particular thing.
00:13:57.240 But the problem is that that argument also justifies a whole bunch of other things.
00:14:01.260 And it takes them a while to circle back around and say, oh yeah, you know that other stuff?
00:14:08.260 Yeah, maybe that stuff is good too.
00:14:10.240 At first they'll always say, no, no, no, no, no, we're not trying to justify that other stuff.
00:14:13.260 No, no, no, this is different.
00:14:14.860 They can't tell you why it's different.
00:14:16.480 They can't explain it.
00:14:19.160 But they'll say that it is.
00:14:23.040 Same thing with, you know, another obvious example is with marriage.
00:14:27.460 They say marriage is not between one man and one woman.
00:14:29.480 And originally they said, oh no, you know, we're not trying to justify things like polygamy.
00:14:35.760 Now, now we're at the point where I think most leftists will say, yeah, sure, who cares?
00:14:39.480 Polygamy is fine. 0.83
00:14:41.160 But at first they claimed, if you recall, when we were having this argument,
00:14:45.740 especially in a lead up to the Supreme Court decision on gay marriage,
00:14:49.260 the claim for most leftists was, no, no, no, we're not trying to justify it.
00:14:51.840 Polygamy, no, that's not the point here. 0.66
00:14:53.380 But of course, every argument you've made for getting rid of the idea of one man, one woman marriage
00:15:01.680 would apply to polygamists just as much.
00:15:06.520 Even more so, actually.
00:15:08.060 That's another example where polygamy is a little bit further up on the slope, not further down.
00:15:17.760 It just took them a while to circle back around.
00:15:19.800 And the same thing is going to happen with the trans stuff, where they're transing everything. 0.97
00:15:25.040 They started with gender. 0.58
00:15:26.400 That is the most extreme thing to trans. 1.00
00:15:30.820 Of all the things to trans, that's the most extreme. 0.99
00:15:33.980 But they started with that, and now it's just a matter of circling back around and saying,
00:15:38.020 yeah, that too.
00:15:38.660 Oh, sure, yeah, that also.
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00:17:55.180 All right, Bernie Sanders sent out a tweet that says, the tweet, the caption is,
00:17:59.980 there are only 22 days until the Iowa caucus. It's time to get rolling.
00:18:04.820 Can you take a trip to help our campaign win in the essential early states? Sign up here.
00:18:09.220 And then, so that's a, okay, pretty normal caption,
00:18:12.140 but it's a caption of a video of him, Sanders, pulling out of the driveway of one of his three houses.
00:18:21.560 And, I don't know, just watch this clip.
00:18:22.900 Why, I don't know if this is self-deprecation.
00:18:45.120 And if so, then I respect it, but I can't quite figure out why Bernie Sanders released a video of himself
00:18:54.540 charging out of his driveway, backing out of his driveway, swerving wildly,
00:18:59.360 and then backing out of the driveway at full speed without stopping to look both ways,
00:19:05.400 like a stereotypical old person. 0.97
00:19:06.940 This is the stuff of stand-up comedy routines going back 40 years of how old people back out of their driveways. 0.94
00:19:14.300 And then, now you have it.
00:19:15.880 Bernie Sanders, 78-year-old man, however old he is, doing exactly that.
00:19:21.980 That's, you know, backing out of the, you saw there was very little visibility
00:19:25.360 because it's all the cars parked on the road there.
00:19:28.500 And he just charges right out.
00:19:30.220 Doesn't stop to look.
00:19:31.320 Like, I don't, why would, I'm not sure what the point there is in showing us that.
00:19:38.600 Other than, I guess, just embracing it and saying, look, I'm, I am very old.
00:19:42.860 That's true.
00:19:44.180 This is how I back out of the driveway.
00:19:46.120 Deal with it.
00:19:47.260 And if that's his message, then I respect it.
00:19:49.780 All right, so last week, I don't remember why this came up exactly,
00:19:52.480 but last week we were talking about how so many people in our culture today value their pets.
00:20:01.920 Over fellow human beings.
00:20:04.240 And one of the emails I received in response to that discussion inspired me to put up an online poll.
00:20:10.000 And that poll has revealed some disturbing findings.
00:20:14.040 So the email from Trinity says,
00:20:16.520 Hi, Matt, I agree with everything you said on the show regarding people valuing dogs more than humans.
00:20:20.720 I asked many people what, what would they choose, a random person or their pet,
00:20:25.340 if they were both found drowning.
00:20:28.200 Surprisingly, everyone answered their pet.
00:20:30.100 What do you think is the underlying reason for this?
00:20:32.680 Is it the lack of religion and unclear morals?
00:20:35.160 So I thought this was a good question.
00:20:37.240 So I stole the question, adjusted it a little bit.
00:20:40.480 I put it on my Twitter.
00:20:41.400 I posed a version of this.
00:20:43.720 And my question was, very simple.
00:20:46.560 Your favorite pet and a grown man you don't know are trapped in a burning building.
00:20:50.380 You can only save one.
00:20:51.660 Who do you choose?
00:20:53.160 Now, as of this morning, I haven't checked in a few hours,
00:20:55.620 but as of this morning, there were almost 30,000 votes tabulated.
00:20:58.520 Out of that, out of 30,000 votes, 40%, 40%, 40% said they would let a human being burn to death in favor of saving an animal.
00:21:12.940 40%.
00:21:13.820 Now, you might say, this is not a scientific result.
00:21:18.940 This was not a scientific poll.
00:21:20.280 This is a Twitter poll.
00:21:21.400 It's not even, it's not exactly a random sample, right?
00:21:24.620 These are people who mostly follow me on Twitter.
00:21:26.600 So is there some bias there or whatever?
00:21:30.100 And that's true.
00:21:31.580 But listen to this, because this is kind of remarkable.
00:21:34.360 I looked this up after the fact.
00:21:36.060 I found that a psychologist conducted a similar survey in a more scientific setting to find out, you know,
00:21:45.280 whether people will put their pet above the needs of a human.
00:21:51.700 And his results are exactly the same.
00:21:56.600 So this psychologist named Richard Topolsky surveyed people and asked them,
00:22:04.080 in this scenario, it's a person and a dog, and they're both about to be hit by a bus,
00:22:08.620 and you could only save one.
00:22:10.760 And again, in this case, 40%, the same exact percentage,
00:22:14.840 40% said that they would save their dog over a human.
00:22:18.320 What are the chances, you know, that two surveys conducted separately would coincidentally
00:22:23.200 come to the same conclusion in terms of the percentages?
00:22:26.600 I think it's more likely that this 40%, the reason why we both came to 40% is because that really is representative.
00:22:33.280 40% of people in this country do put their pets' lives above human life.
00:22:38.680 And what makes this even more depressing is that my followers skew heavily in the direction of conservative Christians.
00:22:47.700 So, you know, maybe if you had just seen this poll result from the psychologist,
00:22:52.360 you would say, oh, you know, well, maybe that's a whole bunch of liberal, godless atheists, 0.93
00:22:56.460 you know, nihilists who don't value human life at all.
00:23:01.140 No, this is not that.
00:23:03.180 This apparently doesn't matter what your ideology is or religion, you know, there's the same tendency.
00:23:09.800 Now, as expected, in Topolsky's study, he found that the 40% figure dips significantly
00:23:17.540 when people are asked to choose between their dog and somebody they know.
00:23:22.640 So if it's a stranger, then, yeah, 40% are saying, screw that guy, let him get splattered by the bus.
00:23:28.240 But if you say, okay, what if it's a, and in fact, the number is still really high if it's a distant cousin.
00:23:35.560 So it could be a family member, but if it's a distant cousin, I think it was, I don't know,
00:23:38.680 I don't have it in front of me, but it was a high percentage of people said, even in that case, see you later, cousin.
00:23:45.260 Now, if you get down to, like, best friend, grandparent, best friend or grandparent,
00:23:51.280 or maybe both if your grandparent is your best friend,
00:23:53.380 in that case, the vast majority of people are going to save the best friend or the grandparent.
00:23:59.100 But still, there still were a minority of people, according to this study,
00:24:04.520 a small minority, but still they're there.
00:24:07.560 There's a minority of people who said that they would let their grandmother
00:24:11.480 get run over by a bus rather than their dog.
00:24:17.620 Now, this speaks to something that I've been talking about for years,
00:24:22.420 and it annoys people whenever I talk about it,
00:24:25.260 and I can already feel through the camera,
00:24:28.020 I can feel people getting annoyed at me right now as I speak.
00:24:31.380 It's a common feeling for me.
00:24:35.660 But I'm going to keep talking about it because I think it's actually important.
00:24:39.360 I think our, in, in, this is really kind of a troubling trend.
00:24:43.200 It's not good to have so many people who don't understand that their pet's life is not as valuable as human life.
00:24:56.440 There is a problem in this culture of people failing to understand
00:24:59.280 that human life is more important and more precious than animal life.
00:25:02.880 The pet obsession has gotten to this pathological state
00:25:07.760 where it's turning people into sociopaths
00:25:10.260 who no longer recognize the inherent value of human life.
00:25:13.380 I don't know how else to describe that.
00:25:15.120 I mean, all these people, at least on my Twitter,
00:25:18.620 it's not just that people were answering the survey,
00:25:21.320 but they were justifying it openly,
00:25:24.000 announcing and saying, yeah, sure, yeah, no, I'd totally,
00:25:26.500 I'd let a person die for the sake of my dog.
00:25:28.560 And it's like, you do realize that that's,
00:25:32.460 you have the moral insight of a psychopath, right?
00:25:36.040 You do realize that you couldn't possibly justify that morally on any level.
00:25:41.540 You realize that, don't you?
00:25:44.340 I don't know.
00:25:45.180 It's not even a rhetorical question.
00:25:46.860 I don't know if these people realize it or not.
00:25:48.380 Are they just embracing the fact that they're psychopaths?
00:25:55.120 Now, look, I'm not saying
00:25:56.740 that having a pet automatically does that to you.
00:26:02.320 Okay, I'm not saying that every person who has a pet
00:26:04.000 is a psychopath. 0.76
00:26:09.200 Maybe you can make an argument, but no,
00:26:10.700 that's not what I'm saying.
00:26:12.460 I'm saying that the obsessive, pet-focused,
00:26:16.940 pet-centered life that some people lead
00:26:20.320 has contributed to, has caused, has fed this delusion.
00:26:25.240 That animals are more,
00:26:27.900 not even as important as people,
00:26:30.020 but more important.
00:26:32.220 And when people go around calling their pets their children
00:26:34.900 and that sort of stuff,
00:26:36.820 it seems like, after a while,
00:26:39.540 some of them really start to believe it.
00:26:42.900 And I didn't put this poll up,
00:26:44.500 because honestly, I don't even want to know the answer.
00:26:48.000 But I was tempted to ask,
00:26:49.620 what if it was your dog and your child?
00:26:51.620 Who do you choose?
00:26:52.260 I'm betting you.
00:26:55.800 Now, I think it'd be small minority,
00:26:57.780 but there are people who would choose the dog.
00:27:01.400 We already know from this psychologist
00:27:02.960 that there are definitely people
00:27:04.180 who choose the dog over the grandparent.
00:27:08.900 This also, by the way, this is not,
00:27:10.840 and before we try to make excuses and say,
00:27:12.860 oh, this is natural, you know, people,
00:27:14.700 this is how they are with their dogs.
00:27:16.220 It's not natural.
00:27:17.380 This is actually the opposite of natural.
00:27:20.180 This is completely unnatural.
00:27:22.620 Our natural inclination is to prefer our own species.
00:27:26.880 And every species is like this.
00:27:28.900 Your natural inclination is supposed to be
00:27:31.200 to prioritize your own species.
00:27:33.960 We are all naturally speciesist,
00:27:36.420 and we should be.
00:27:38.460 That is a good prejudice to have.
00:27:41.740 Every other species has it.
00:27:45.460 I can guarantee you,
00:27:46.520 dogs care more about other dogs.
00:27:49.780 Lions care more about other lions.
00:27:51.380 Gorillas care more about other gorillas.
00:27:53.320 They are naturally inclined in that direction.
00:27:57.680 So, if you're tempted to say,
00:28:01.100 well, of course people feel this way about their pets.
00:28:03.180 That's how it's always been.
00:28:04.320 No, it's not of course.
00:28:06.840 It's not how it's always been.
00:28:08.620 This is a distinctly modern and Western phenomenon,
00:28:11.800 as I said last week.
00:28:14.760 Now, to answer the question posed by the person in the email,
00:28:17.520 saying, you know, why is this happening?
00:28:20.360 Why are so many people now essentially psychopaths
00:28:23.520 who don't even understand that human life
00:28:25.260 is more important than animal life?
00:28:27.280 Why do we live in a country where so many people
00:28:29.660 would let a human being,
00:28:31.520 likely a father and a husband,
00:28:33.120 burn alive in favor of saving their stupid pets?
00:28:35.940 Because, well, here's my theory to that.
00:28:38.020 Actually, I'll give my theory a second.
00:28:39.420 But I really want to dwell on this.
00:28:41.260 Because I know that it's a hypothetical.
00:28:43.860 And you can say that all day long.
00:28:45.080 You can say, oh, it's just a hypothetical.
00:28:46.340 Yeah, it's a hypothetical.
00:28:47.300 But there's a point here.
00:28:49.080 It's a thought experiment
00:28:50.440 to try to figure out what your priorities are.
00:28:53.040 So, if you're in the 40%,
00:28:55.860 think about what you're saying.
00:28:57.560 You're saying that you would let
00:28:59.920 a conscious, self-aware, human adult
00:29:04.840 who certainly has a family
00:29:07.840 and is most likely a husband and a father,
00:29:10.360 you would let him burn alive
00:29:12.560 an absolutely torturous, horrific death
00:29:18.480 that he will be fully aware of.
00:29:21.660 And you will let his family be,
00:29:24.220 his children be orphaned.
00:29:25.900 And you'll let his wife be widowed 0.99
00:29:28.500 for the sake of your dog.
00:29:32.140 My God.
00:29:35.000 Just, and I want to believe that most,
00:29:37.880 maybe you're just not thinking it through.
00:29:39.120 I don't know.
00:29:40.980 Really think about that.
00:29:45.780 And then I had a lot of other people saying,
00:29:47.440 oh, you know, you can't really answer this question.
00:29:49.340 It's a difficult call.
00:29:50.040 It's one of those things you have to be,
00:29:51.000 you don't know what you'll do in the moment
00:29:52.380 until you're there.
00:29:53.360 No, I know what I would do.
00:29:54.920 I can tell you right now,
00:29:55.740 I have a cat.
00:29:58.400 And if that cat is trapped
00:30:00.020 in a burning building
00:30:00.700 and there's a human there,
00:30:02.280 see you later, cat.
00:30:03.540 That's, I don't even have to think about it.
00:30:04.980 It's no hesitation,
00:30:06.600 not even a second.
00:30:08.020 There would not be one second of me going,
00:30:10.100 you know, I've got the guy there
00:30:11.900 is trapped.
00:30:14.300 And then I've got the cat.
00:30:15.300 There wouldn't be one second of me going,
00:30:17.280 should I get the cat?
00:30:18.720 And then the guy looks at me
00:30:20.780 and guilt trips me into,
00:30:21.760 no, that wouldn't happen.
00:30:22.660 I just, I'm going right for the guy.
00:30:26.500 So why, you know, why is it?
00:30:27.960 Why do people put their pets
00:30:29.400 above their,
00:30:30.200 above humans?
00:30:32.020 I think it comes down to selfishness.
00:30:34.920 And when you think of it that way,
00:30:36.140 it's a lot less mysterious.
00:30:37.320 Once you start to realize
00:30:38.720 that most of the bad stuff,
00:30:40.540 you know, in life,
00:30:41.680 most of the bad things we do,
00:30:43.240 most of our bad priorities,
00:30:45.680 it always comes down to selfishness
00:30:47.280 in the end.
00:30:49.220 Because this pet obsession,
00:30:50.640 and again, when I say obsession,
00:30:52.680 I mean obsession.
00:30:53.920 I'm not talking about
00:30:55.000 if you have a pet
00:30:55.780 and you love your pet,
00:30:57.160 but the love you have for your pet
00:30:59.520 is in a proper perspective
00:31:01.080 and it's proportionate
00:31:02.340 and you obviously put humans
00:31:04.300 above your pet
00:31:05.060 and you put your family
00:31:05.900 above your pet
00:31:06.500 and you put strangers above,
00:31:07.580 you know, if you're in that category,
00:31:09.220 then go in peace.
00:31:10.340 God be with you.
00:31:11.060 I have no problem with you.
00:31:12.720 I am also a pet owner.
00:31:14.220 So I'm, you know,
00:31:15.340 we're on the same page, right?
00:31:18.200 I'm talking about the wackadoodles
00:31:20.280 who openly announced
00:31:21.680 that they would save their cat or dog
00:31:23.460 and let a human being burn to death.
00:31:25.280 That's what I'm talking about.
00:31:28.300 And for those people,
00:31:29.620 I think it is selfishness,
00:31:31.460 which is very different
00:31:34.000 from normal sort of animal lovers,
00:31:38.100 meaning the people in the first camp,
00:31:40.360 people who love animals,
00:31:41.480 but not more than they love people.
00:31:44.800 And people like that,
00:31:47.260 people who have a very,
00:31:50.300 you know,
00:31:51.040 have a great passion for animals
00:31:53.100 and are animal lovers,
00:31:55.060 but still it's all in proportion
00:31:56.420 and they would never value
00:31:57.940 an animal over a person.
00:31:59.400 Those people I admire
00:32:00.520 because I think, you know,
00:32:01.660 that comes from a,
00:32:03.440 from a,
00:32:04.440 in a,
00:32:05.140 in a biting,
00:32:06.000 an abounding,
00:32:06.520 just compassion
00:32:08.160 for all living things
00:32:09.720 and I think that's great, right?
00:32:13.240 But the people who put the animals
00:32:15.920 above other people,
00:32:17.940 I think for them,
00:32:19.660 it is a sort of a selfishness
00:32:22.040 and I think the reason is,
00:32:23.820 you know,
00:32:23.960 what is it that they like about the pet?
00:32:27.040 Well, it's because the pet
00:32:27.840 makes them feel good.
00:32:30.040 The way people talk about dogs,
00:32:31.480 you know,
00:32:31.700 the dog worships the ground you walk on,
00:32:33.820 they're so excited when you come home,
00:32:35.140 it's like,
00:32:35.380 yeah, all that is fine.
00:32:36.520 Now, personally,
00:32:37.200 I don't need to be worshipped
00:32:38.040 every second of the day.
00:32:39.260 It's a little bit much,
00:32:40.680 honestly,
00:32:41.620 to have a dog following me around
00:32:42.880 all hours of the day
00:32:43.720 worshipping me,
00:32:44.420 a little bit much,
00:32:45.100 don't really need that.
00:32:46.020 I need a little space,
00:32:46.940 but,
00:32:48.380 um,
00:32:49.020 it can be nice sometimes,
00:32:50.380 I suppose.
00:32:52.420 But that's really what people
00:32:53.680 love about their pets.
00:32:56.200 And then they'll say things like,
00:32:57.680 oh, a pet will never betray you
00:32:59.160 like a person will,
00:33:00.100 a pet will never lie to you
00:33:01.180 like a person will.
00:33:02.000 What they're really saying is,
00:33:03.940 you know,
00:33:04.200 I want to be in a relationship
00:33:05.820 with someone
00:33:06.380 where it's all about me
00:33:08.400 and I am getting nothing but,
00:33:10.540 but, uh,
00:33:11.200 it's, it's,
00:33:11.600 I'm getting nothing but,
00:33:12.520 but pleasure out of it.
00:33:13.980 Um,
00:33:15.140 and I,
00:33:15.720 I never have to deal with any,
00:33:17.020 you know,
00:33:17.220 the other person never
00:33:18.380 sort of intrudes their own
00:33:19.780 personality on me.
00:33:20.860 I never have to do,
00:33:22.640 you know,
00:33:23.040 I never have to do anything
00:33:23.720 like forgive.
00:33:25.660 That's what they're saying.
00:33:26.920 That's why they prefer
00:33:28.040 animals over humans.
00:33:31.660 Because the relationship
00:33:33.060 you can have with a human being
00:33:34.260 is much richer
00:33:36.240 and much deeper
00:33:37.360 and much more meaningful
00:33:38.520 as anybody who's ever had
00:33:41.080 a real relationship
00:33:41.720 with another person knows.
00:33:44.100 But,
00:33:44.720 yeah,
00:33:45.440 it is a person.
00:33:46.960 And so they have
00:33:47.440 their own personality,
00:33:48.460 they have their own goals,
00:33:49.600 they have their own priorities,
00:33:50.860 they have moral weaknesses,
00:33:53.420 they are going to do things
00:33:54.480 sometimes like,
00:33:55.140 like lie to you.
00:33:56.300 They might betray you.
00:33:57.700 These are you,
00:33:58.100 and so then you need
00:33:58.660 to forgive them.
00:33:59.460 And it takes more work
00:34:00.740 on your end.
00:34:02.640 And I think there are
00:34:03.360 a lot of people
00:34:03.940 who are so weak
00:34:05.000 and so selfish
00:34:06.200 and so pathetic
00:34:07.620 that they don't want
00:34:08.820 to do that work
00:34:09.760 for another person.
00:34:11.260 They just want to,
00:34:12.060 they'll just,
00:34:12.660 you know,
00:34:12.940 they'll substitute a person
00:34:14.080 for a dog
00:34:14.800 and they don't have to
00:34:15.720 worry about any of that
00:34:16.500 and the dog will just
00:34:17.200 worship them,
00:34:17.820 it'll be all about them.
00:34:20.160 And, uh,
00:34:20.720 you know,
00:34:20.860 the dog's always there,
00:34:21.720 they can keep the dog
00:34:22.340 at home when they go to work,
00:34:23.400 they come home,
00:34:23.860 the dog is there,
00:34:24.380 they can always just
00:34:24.780 put the dog
00:34:25.260 where they want the dog
00:34:26.020 and it's always really
00:34:27.400 just about them
00:34:28.120 in the end.
00:34:30.040 I also think there's
00:34:30.880 the Disney effect.
00:34:32.000 I think a lot of adults
00:34:32.980 still think they're
00:34:34.400 in a Disney movie.
00:34:36.140 Um,
00:34:37.420 and,
00:34:38.380 and I guess
00:34:39.060 because they grew up
00:34:39.600 watching this
00:34:40.180 and so they ascribe
00:34:41.140 noble intentions
00:34:42.220 to their pets.
00:34:43.700 They talk about their pets
00:34:44.960 as if their pets
00:34:45.660 are virtuous,
00:34:46.640 saintly creatures.
00:34:48.240 you know,
00:34:49.360 they,
00:34:49.640 they,
00:34:49.860 they really do
00:34:50.660 ascribe
00:34:51.180 virtuous motives
00:34:53.600 to their pets.
00:34:55.700 But you notice
00:34:56.420 it never goes
00:34:56.900 on the other end.
00:34:58.860 Like,
00:34:59.480 they would never
00:35:00.080 accuse their dog
00:35:00.960 of knowingly stealing,
00:35:02.660 you know,
00:35:02.860 they would never
00:35:03.280 think that their dog
00:35:04.220 should be held
00:35:04.800 morally responsible
00:35:05.920 for stealing something
00:35:07.720 from the counter,
00:35:08.540 maybe,
00:35:08.820 you know,
00:35:09.140 stealing some,
00:35:09.860 some,
00:35:10.380 some food from the counter.
00:35:12.140 Even if their dog
00:35:13.000 goes and bites someone,
00:35:14.380 they immediately
00:35:15.080 make an excuse.
00:35:15.760 Oh,
00:35:15.980 it's just a,
00:35:16.340 he's a dog.
00:35:17.000 You know,
00:35:17.140 he doesn't know any better.
00:35:18.960 So when it comes
00:35:19.640 to something bad,
00:35:21.180 um,
00:35:21.700 their dog doesn't
00:35:22.400 deserve any moral guilt.
00:35:24.600 But on the other hand,
00:35:25.540 with the good stuff,
00:35:26.480 it's,
00:35:26.700 oh,
00:35:26.760 no,
00:35:26.920 he's loyal,
00:35:27.680 he's loving,
00:35:28.420 he's,
00:35:28.700 so what they've,
00:35:29.520 they've made the dog
00:35:30.540 out to be,
00:35:31.240 um,
00:35:32.360 this morally perfect
00:35:34.340 angelic creature,
00:35:36.460 which,
00:35:38.280 of course,
00:35:38.600 is insane.
00:35:39.580 And in reality,
00:35:41.620 with animals,
00:35:42.880 um,
00:35:44.000 most of what they do
00:35:45.100 is instinctive.
00:35:46.520 You know,
00:35:46.740 they do it because
00:35:47.540 they've been programmed
00:35:48.280 that way biologically
00:35:49.380 by nature.
00:35:50.860 Uh,
00:35:51.260 most of the love
00:35:52.040 they show to you,
00:35:52.880 it's only because
00:35:53.380 you feed them.
00:35:54.780 And,
00:35:55.260 um,
00:35:55.740 and if you stop
00:35:56.420 feeding them,
00:35:57.020 they'd probably eat you
00:35:57.900 instead.
00:35:58.300 That's the thing.
00:35:58.920 You know,
00:35:59.180 it's,
00:35:59.440 that's,
00:36:00.200 that's the,
00:36:01.660 that's really the test.
00:36:03.840 You say your dog
00:36:04.680 loves you,
00:36:05.100 I mean,
00:36:05.400 maybe there's a certain
00:36:06.340 emotional sense of that
00:36:07.720 where he does have
00:36:08.220 some affection for you,
00:36:08.960 but if you stop
00:36:09.800 feeding your dog,
00:36:10.720 he'll eat you.
00:36:12.320 And then he just will.
00:36:14.280 Uh,
00:36:14.720 your kids probably won't.
00:36:16.640 But your dog will.
00:36:19.020 Because he's a dog.
00:36:20.360 And that's fine.
00:36:21.300 You know,
00:36:21.520 it's fine for dogs
00:36:22.220 to be dogs.
00:36:23.060 But,
00:36:23.320 uh,
00:36:23.500 let's just,
00:36:24.440 let's just keep it in,
00:36:27.860 let's just keep it in perspective
00:36:30.960 is all I'm trying to say.
00:36:32.540 All right,
00:36:32.800 let's go to emails.
00:36:34.000 mattwalshowatgmail.com,
00:36:35.440 mattwalshowatgmail.com.
00:36:36.940 Um,
00:36:37.460 this is from Carlos,
00:36:38.540 says,
00:36:39.100 Matt,
00:36:39.460 great show,
00:36:40.080 great columns,
00:36:40.920 great everything,
00:36:41.760 et cetera.
00:36:42.340 On Twitter,
00:36:42.940 you were discussing thinkers
00:36:44.000 who have different worldviews
00:36:45.940 from your own.
00:36:47.840 You gave a favorable mention
00:36:49.180 to Sam Harris
00:36:50.060 and even said
00:36:50.680 you found his argument
00:36:51.360 against free will persuasive.
00:36:53.100 Can you elaborate on that?
00:36:54.640 I have to say,
00:36:55.140 I was shocked to read this
00:36:56.180 from you,
00:36:56.680 given that you've so often
00:36:57.680 defended free will.
00:36:59.320 Um,
00:37:01.900 yeah,
00:37:04.340 uh,
00:37:05.260 we were talking about that
00:37:07.300 on,
00:37:07.520 on,
00:37:07.840 on Twitter.
00:37:08.680 Um,
00:37:09.480 and I do appreciate Sam Harris.
00:37:11.540 I've read many of his books.
00:37:13.900 I didn't say,
00:37:14.860 and he wrote a book,
00:37:15.520 uh,
00:37:15.900 against,
00:37:17.160 you know,
00:37:17.480 arguing against the concept
00:37:19.280 of free will.
00:37:19.820 Pretty short little book.
00:37:21.300 Uh,
00:37:21.620 and I think it's worth reading.
00:37:23.800 Now,
00:37:24.300 I didn't say
00:37:24.980 that his argument
00:37:26.060 against free will
00:37:26.820 was persuasive,
00:37:27.960 let alone did I say
00:37:29.420 that I was persuaded by it.
00:37:31.080 So I didn't say
00:37:31.800 that I read his book
00:37:32.920 and said,
00:37:33.240 you know what,
00:37:33.500 there is no free will.
00:37:35.280 I said it was,
00:37:36.140 it was a more formidable argument
00:37:37.960 that he presented
00:37:38.720 than I expected.
00:37:41.420 And,
00:37:41.820 and part of my point here
00:37:42.760 is that we have to be
00:37:43.460 willing to admit
00:37:44.420 when somebody makes
00:37:46.200 a formidable,
00:37:47.260 i.e.
00:37:47.800 credible,
00:37:48.420 intelligent,
00:37:49.060 plausible argument
00:37:49.860 that we disagree with.
00:37:51.500 Because I think
00:37:52.200 if we've never encountered
00:37:53.760 a formidable argument
00:37:55.100 that we disagree with,
00:37:56.020 that's a pretty good indication
00:37:56.960 that we're living in a bubble.
00:37:57.960 So I thought he made
00:38:00.460 a pretty good case
00:38:01.120 for his view,
00:38:01.840 but I still disagree
00:38:02.860 with his conclusion.
00:38:04.460 Let me tell you
00:38:05.140 why I disagree,
00:38:06.040 first of all.
00:38:06.900 And then I'll get
00:38:07.400 to the formidable aspect
00:38:08.520 of his argument.
00:38:10.060 I disagree with anybody
00:38:11.240 claiming that free will
00:38:12.120 doesn't exist.
00:38:13.600 Um,
00:38:13.880 and this is determinism
00:38:14.900 if you want the fancy
00:38:16.000 ism name for this view.
00:38:18.860 I disagree because
00:38:20.080 as far as I can tell,
00:38:22.480 you just can't get around
00:38:24.740 a simple fact.
00:38:26.380 And that simple fact
00:38:27.380 is that like,
00:38:28.260 I am choosing
00:38:29.380 to do this right now.
00:38:30.540 Okay?
00:38:31.400 Raising the mug
00:38:32.080 up and down.
00:38:33.180 Which, by the way,
00:38:33.900 you can get these,
00:38:35.360 the Deli Wire store.
00:38:36.700 Um,
00:38:37.120 I'm choosing to do this.
00:38:39.560 I could not be doing this.
00:38:42.140 I could be doing
00:38:42.880 any number of other things.
00:38:44.200 Rather than doing this,
00:38:45.020 I could go downstairs
00:38:46.340 and make a grilled cheese sandwich.
00:38:47.980 I could go jump in a lake.
00:38:49.940 I could go in a killing spree.
00:38:51.840 I could,
00:38:52.200 I could do all of those things.
00:38:54.160 But instead,
00:38:54.860 I'm sitting here right now
00:38:55.640 raising my mug up and down
00:38:56.920 like an idiot. 0.92
00:38:58.440 That's a choice
00:38:59.100 that I'm making.
00:39:00.480 And,
00:39:00.920 when I say that I could
00:39:02.100 be doing those things,
00:39:03.180 what I mean is,
00:39:03.940 those are theoretical options
00:39:05.500 available to me,
00:39:06.580 and there is nothing
00:39:07.480 actively,
00:39:08.340 physically preventing me
00:39:09.320 from doing them.
00:39:10.940 So I could do them.
00:39:13.340 And if I could,
00:39:14.180 and, you know,
00:39:14.880 I can do anything
00:39:16.000 within the laws of physics.
00:39:18.540 And if I can do anything
00:39:19.840 theoretically within
00:39:20.560 the laws of physics,
00:39:21.400 then I have free will.
00:39:23.060 At least that's what I mean
00:39:24.500 when I talk about free will.
00:39:26.540 Now,
00:39:27.180 here's an example
00:39:27.940 of true determinism.
00:39:29.840 Computers.
00:39:31.120 So,
00:39:31.600 I could build a fancy robot.
00:39:32.980 Well,
00:39:33.160 I couldn't build a fancy robot
00:39:34.060 because I'm stupid.
00:39:34.880 But,
00:39:35.460 a smart person
00:39:36.160 could build a fancy robot
00:39:37.160 that can,
00:39:39.260 you know,
00:39:39.560 walk across the room,
00:39:40.880 pour a cup of coffee,
00:39:41.840 bring it back to you.
00:39:43.220 Something really impressive
00:39:44.220 like that.
00:39:45.460 But that's programmed.
00:39:47.300 The robot has no choice.
00:39:48.940 Literally no choice.
00:39:50.540 It could malfunction
00:39:51.540 and go and do something else.
00:39:53.560 But again,
00:39:54.080 that's not a choice.
00:39:54.900 That's just a malfunction.
00:39:57.280 It can't choose
00:39:58.420 to do something else.
00:39:59.920 And with all due respect
00:40:01.000 to Terminator
00:40:02.100 and The Matrix,
00:40:03.200 it couldn't actually choose
00:40:04.680 to go out
00:40:05.180 and kill people 0.93
00:40:05.920 or enslave mankind
00:40:07.180 or do any of that stuff.
00:40:09.040 It can only do
00:40:09.840 what it's programmed to do
00:40:10.920 or else it can break.
00:40:12.660 Those are kind of
00:40:13.340 the two possibilities.
00:40:15.800 My computer
00:40:16.720 could not even
00:40:17.420 theoretically
00:40:18.400 become a Buddhist.
00:40:21.540 I could theoretically
00:40:22.740 become a Buddhist.
00:40:23.720 That's an option
00:40:24.500 open to me.
00:40:25.500 I could do it
00:40:26.300 because I have free will.
00:40:28.140 The only reason
00:40:28.760 I'm not a Buddhist
00:40:29.720 right now
00:40:30.280 is because I haven't
00:40:31.060 chosen to be one.
00:40:31.780 So I think free will
00:40:34.420 stands.
00:40:35.380 But here's the
00:40:36.020 formidable aspect
00:40:37.080 of Harris's argument.
00:40:40.480 And I'm summarizing
00:40:41.560 it very briefly.
00:40:42.280 Try not to make
00:40:42.920 a straw man out of it.
00:40:44.500 So if I do make
00:40:45.560 a straw man out of it,
00:40:46.420 that's unintentional.
00:40:48.120 But I think his point
00:40:48.980 is basically this.
00:40:51.240 So take a murderer,
00:40:53.160 for example.
00:40:54.000 Okay.
00:40:57.460 That murderer
00:40:58.320 chose to be a murderer, 0.74
00:41:00.760 I would say.
00:41:01.600 Chose to shoot up
00:41:02.360 the movie theater.
00:41:02.880 And you would say
00:41:07.820 that, well,
00:41:09.020 he chose to do that
00:41:10.520 and you chose
00:41:12.460 not to do that.
00:41:13.540 And that's the reason
00:41:14.620 you're not a murderer
00:41:15.660 and he is.
00:41:17.640 But Harris says,
00:41:18.900 hold on a second.
00:41:20.420 Wait a minute.
00:41:22.000 What if you had
00:41:22.940 the exact same genes
00:41:24.360 as that guy?
00:41:25.880 Not like pants,
00:41:27.180 but genes,
00:41:27.940 genetics.
00:41:28.860 What if you had
00:41:29.200 the exact same genes
00:41:29.860 and the same
00:41:32.140 psychological
00:41:32.700 makeup
00:41:33.140 and the same
00:41:34.680 mental illnesses
00:41:35.340 if he has any
00:41:36.020 and the same
00:41:38.480 family background
00:41:39.700 and the same
00:41:41.660 childhood traumas
00:41:42.660 and every other
00:41:44.420 thing that's happened
00:41:45.300 to that guy
00:41:45.980 that he didn't choose,
00:41:48.220 let's say all of that
00:41:49.700 happened to you also.
00:41:53.100 Can you be so sure
00:41:54.320 in that case
00:41:54.900 that you wouldn't
00:41:55.420 also be a mass murderer?
00:41:57.660 And the answer
00:41:58.600 we have to admit
00:41:59.260 is no.
00:42:00.220 You know,
00:42:00.400 we can't be so sure.
00:42:01.180 In fact,
00:42:01.720 probably we would be.
00:42:02.700 If we were in the
00:42:05.380 exact same situation
00:42:06.940 as that guy,
00:42:07.880 exact same,
00:42:09.200 from birth,
00:42:11.200 everything is
00:42:12.400 exactly the same.
00:42:13.860 We'd probably do
00:42:14.620 the same thing.
00:42:15.140 In fact,
00:42:15.500 we would probably
00:42:16.200 be that guy.
00:42:17.580 I mean,
00:42:17.880 then we would
00:42:18.460 essentially be him
00:42:19.840 and we'd probably
00:42:20.780 do everything
00:42:21.420 that he does.
00:42:23.340 Another example,
00:42:24.640 I think maybe
00:42:25.280 even a better example
00:42:26.500 would be,
00:42:27.700 an easier example
00:42:29.840 would be suicide bomber.
00:42:32.520 And, you know,
00:42:33.020 with a suicide bomber,
00:42:33.960 we could take even
00:42:34.620 genetics and stuff
00:42:35.400 out of it
00:42:35.880 and let's just say
00:42:36.780 that, you know,
00:42:38.300 you grew up
00:42:39.280 in Iraq
00:42:40.440 and you were
00:42:41.860 indoctrinated
00:42:42.520 into militant Islam
00:42:43.860 every day of your life
00:42:45.060 from birth
00:42:45.560 and you were told
00:42:46.700 every day of your life
00:42:47.560 from birth
00:42:48.120 that, you know,
00:42:48.860 if you become a martyr,
00:42:49.700 you'll get 72 virgins
00:42:50.720 and you had
00:42:52.580 all that same conditioning
00:42:53.620 for years and years
00:42:54.480 and years and years
00:42:55.040 and years.
00:42:56.620 Would you become
00:42:57.340 a suicide bomber too?
00:42:58.620 Probably.
00:43:01.860 And, you know,
00:43:02.860 and that's a good point
00:43:03.780 that he raises
00:43:04.300 and I think we have
00:43:04.960 to grapple with it.
00:43:06.500 That's not a point
00:43:07.140 that you can just
00:43:07.560 gloss over.
00:43:09.060 It's a point that we,
00:43:10.060 and Harris makes,
00:43:12.840 goes back to this theme
00:43:13.840 in his book
00:43:14.300 where this is like,
00:43:15.520 this is something
00:43:15.980 we want to gloss over
00:43:17.180 because it makes
00:43:17.660 us uncomfortable
00:43:18.240 and we start to feel
00:43:20.260 the foundations
00:43:21.840 of our justice system
00:43:23.140 sort of begin
00:43:23.820 to collapse around us
00:43:25.060 where if now
00:43:26.360 we're saying
00:43:26.900 that like we would
00:43:27.720 probably do
00:43:28.320 all of the bad things
00:43:29.300 that bad people
00:43:30.020 have done
00:43:30.420 if we were in
00:43:30.900 their same exact situation
00:43:31.940 like then what basis
00:43:33.340 do we have
00:43:33.720 to even put them
00:43:34.220 in jail
00:43:34.580 and all these questions
00:43:35.700 come rushing in
00:43:36.440 and it's very disturbing.
00:43:38.380 But here's my response.
00:43:41.020 What Harris is talking about,
00:43:44.060 these factors
00:43:45.960 that he's talking about
00:43:46.820 are influences
00:43:48.280 they are things
00:43:50.920 that can influence you
00:43:52.160 in one direction
00:43:52.920 or another
00:43:53.440 and they may be
00:43:55.020 very strong influences,
00:43:56.460 very strong.
00:43:57.420 You know,
00:43:57.620 brainwashing from birth
00:43:59.000 is an indoctrination
00:44:00.680 from birth
00:44:01.460 into a certain worldview.
00:44:03.120 It doesn't have to be
00:44:03.600 Milton, Islam,
00:44:04.300 it could be anything.
00:44:05.680 But being indoctrinated
00:44:06.800 into it from birth
00:44:07.780 is a very,
00:44:09.080 very strong influence.
00:44:10.300 It is very hard
00:44:11.940 to, you know,
00:44:14.740 be born into
00:44:15.600 a certain worldview,
00:44:16.520 a certain way of thinking
00:44:17.260 and to break out of that.
00:44:18.980 It is very hard to do.
00:44:21.800 Most people can't.
00:44:24.960 And the only way
00:44:25.760 that you know
00:44:26.360 if you can
00:44:26.860 is if you've done it.
00:44:28.180 If you have never have,
00:44:29.900 now hopefully
00:44:30.600 you didn't need to
00:44:31.920 because you were
00:44:32.520 sort of indoctrinated
00:44:34.080 quote unquote
00:44:34.500 into the right way
00:44:35.320 of thinking.
00:44:36.840 But if you've never
00:44:38.500 had to make that effort
00:44:39.380 of breaking out of that
00:44:40.220 then you don't really know
00:44:40.960 if you could or not.
00:44:42.380 Probably you can't
00:44:43.400 because most people can't.
00:44:44.260 But my point is
00:44:47.720 you still have a choice.
00:44:49.300 You aren't literally
00:44:50.500 programmed.
00:44:52.400 You could theoretically
00:44:54.220 do something else.
00:44:56.060 And that's all I mean
00:44:57.120 by free will
00:44:57.740 which is why I say
00:44:58.760 that free will
00:44:59.380 still stands.
00:45:01.900 Right?
00:45:03.260 You take somebody
00:45:03.960 in the inner city.
00:45:06.300 Someone born,
00:45:08.060 you know,
00:45:08.900 with no father in the home,
00:45:10.180 born in the projects,
00:45:12.260 the projects,
00:45:13.640 nothing but bad influences
00:45:15.240 all around,
00:45:16.760 nothing but crime
00:45:17.740 and drugs all around,
00:45:18.680 terrible school system,
00:45:19.720 all of that, right?
00:45:21.100 And then they go
00:45:21.920 and become a drug dealer.
00:45:24.060 And Harris would say,
00:45:25.260 well,
00:45:25.460 if you were in that
00:45:26.180 exact same situation,
00:45:27.400 wouldn't you also
00:45:28.020 be a drug dealer?
00:45:29.100 Probably.
00:45:30.320 Yes, probably.
00:45:31.740 But that doesn't mean
00:45:33.300 they don't actually
00:45:33.980 have a choice.
00:45:34.520 They do have a choice.
00:45:36.120 The choice is still there.
00:45:37.140 You could choose
00:45:37.860 something else.
00:45:38.540 And we know that,
00:45:39.520 one way we know that
00:45:40.340 is that some people
00:45:41.260 do choose.
00:45:42.820 You know,
00:45:42.980 there are a lot of people
00:45:44.220 who are grown,
00:45:45.140 who are born
00:45:45.740 into terrible situations,
00:45:47.660 frankly,
00:45:48.580 end up being terrible people.
00:45:50.020 And that's the horrible
00:45:51.040 thing about it.
00:45:52.480 Just like there are
00:45:52.940 a lot of people
00:45:53.540 who, you know,
00:45:54.220 suffer all kinds of trauma
00:45:55.700 as children
00:45:57.480 and then go on
00:45:58.500 and become
00:45:58.980 sexual abusers
00:46:00.180 and pedophiles.
00:46:00.780 I think if you look
00:46:01.300 at most pedophiles
00:46:02.100 and you look at
00:46:02.480 their family background,
00:46:03.960 you're going to find
00:46:04.540 that a lot of horrible
00:46:05.800 things happened to them
00:46:06.840 when they were kids.
00:46:07.420 But that doesn't mean
00:46:10.960 that there is still
00:46:12.180 a choice.
00:46:12.540 You can break out
00:46:13.480 of that.
00:46:14.280 And we know
00:46:14.780 there are plenty
00:46:15.380 of people who are
00:46:16.100 born in these
00:46:16.720 horrible situations,
00:46:17.660 whether they're born,
00:46:18.600 you know,
00:46:18.960 into militant Islam
00:46:19.800 and they're trying,
00:46:21.200 people trying to
00:46:21.920 condition them
00:46:22.360 into being suicide bombers
00:46:24.040 or they're born
00:46:24.940 into a situation
00:46:25.600 where a lot of people
00:46:26.140 become drug dealers.
00:46:27.240 There are people
00:46:27.600 born in those situations
00:46:28.480 who do break out
00:46:30.000 of that and make
00:46:30.740 better choices
00:46:31.420 and prove.
00:46:32.520 And it takes a whole
00:46:33.260 lot of courage
00:46:33.840 and guts and everything.
00:46:35.060 more than probably
00:46:36.700 I have or you have.
00:46:38.320 But it is possible.
00:46:40.500 Let's look at
00:46:41.100 another example.
00:46:42.380 Let's say someone
00:46:43.100 puts a gun to your head.
00:46:45.680 Let's say that you're
00:46:46.400 sitting at a desk,
00:46:47.100 there's a button
00:46:47.640 on the desk,
00:46:48.360 and if you press
00:46:48.880 that button, 0.91
00:46:49.500 it's going to set
00:46:50.400 off an explosion
00:46:51.180 across town
00:46:52.280 that kills
00:46:52.760 a thousand people.
00:46:54.640 And let's say
00:46:55.000 someone literally
00:46:56.000 puts a gun
00:46:56.540 to your head
00:46:56.980 and says,
00:46:58.200 press that button.
00:47:00.440 Actual gun
00:47:01.060 to the head.
00:47:02.700 Now I guess
00:47:03.480 Sam Harris would say,
00:47:04.360 your free will
00:47:05.140 has been taken
00:47:05.660 from you.
00:47:06.380 Well,
00:47:06.740 you never had
00:47:07.180 free will
00:47:07.460 to begin with,
00:47:08.140 but,
00:47:08.680 you know,
00:47:09.040 according to him,
00:47:09.820 but you have
00:47:11.060 no choice,
00:47:11.640 he would say.
00:47:12.220 You have a gun
00:47:12.620 to your head.
00:47:13.900 And on one level
00:47:14.820 it makes sense.
00:47:15.460 Yeah,
00:47:15.620 there's a gun
00:47:16.080 to your head.
00:47:16.460 What choice
00:47:16.740 do you have?
00:47:17.760 But my point is,
00:47:18.700 you actually
00:47:19.100 do have a choice.
00:47:21.200 The gun
00:47:21.780 represents a
00:47:22.680 very,
00:47:23.260 very,
00:47:23.760 very,
00:47:24.200 very strong
00:47:25.100 influence
00:47:25.920 in one direction.
00:47:28.540 But you could
00:47:29.540 still choose
00:47:30.160 not to press it.
00:47:32.060 There's going
00:47:32.500 to be a horrible
00:47:32.900 consequence for you.
00:47:33.720 You're going
00:47:34.000 to be killed
00:47:34.380 probably.
00:47:35.680 But you could
00:47:36.580 make that choice.
00:47:37.540 That choice
00:47:37.940 is still available
00:47:39.000 to you.
00:47:39.980 It is still
00:47:40.520 a theoretical
00:47:41.220 option.
00:47:41.820 It may take
00:47:42.160 a lot of courage,
00:47:42.860 a lot of guts,
00:47:43.580 but you could do it.
00:47:45.400 And so you have
00:47:46.200 free will.
00:47:47.520 And so really,
00:47:48.260 all of these things
00:47:48.960 that Harris brings up,
00:47:50.340 even though they're
00:47:51.080 good things to consider,
00:47:53.100 and it's interesting
00:47:53.820 to talk about them,
00:47:55.140 they actually have
00:47:55.820 nothing to do
00:47:56.660 with free will
00:47:57.280 at all.
00:47:57.960 because they have
00:47:58.860 no bearing
00:48:00.420 on the fact
00:48:01.200 that we can still
00:48:03.060 make whatever choice
00:48:03.860 we want to make.
00:48:06.940 You know,
00:48:07.540 it is true,
00:48:08.360 and I've talked
00:48:08.840 about it myself,
00:48:10.140 that most of the
00:48:13.500 choices we make
00:48:14.300 in life are
00:48:15.180 determined by
00:48:16.680 desire and
00:48:18.300 opportunity.
00:48:19.640 In other words,
00:48:20.460 most of the things
00:48:22.080 you've done in your life,
00:48:23.600 you've done them,
00:48:24.760 good or bad,
00:48:25.300 you've done them
00:48:26.340 because you wanted to,
00:48:28.020 number one,
00:48:29.320 and number two,
00:48:30.280 because you had
00:48:30.740 the opportunity to do it.
00:48:32.560 And by opportunity,
00:48:33.380 I mean not just
00:48:34.000 the physical opportunity
00:48:34.780 to do it,
00:48:35.200 but also a chance
00:48:36.480 to do it without
00:48:37.100 there being,
00:48:37.820 in your mind,
00:48:38.940 horrible consequences
00:48:39.880 for it.
00:48:41.280 So good or bad,
00:48:42.200 let's just focus
00:48:42.780 on the bad for a minute.
00:48:44.240 Every sin you've committed,
00:48:45.600 every bad thing you've done,
00:48:47.560 big or small thing,
00:48:50.100 why did you do it?
00:48:51.500 You did it because
00:48:52.320 you wanted to,
00:48:53.520 and because you had
00:48:54.100 the chance to.
00:48:56.300 And that really is,
00:48:57.420 and same for the good stuff.
00:48:59.860 And that really does
00:49:01.040 seemingly determine
00:49:02.460 most of the things
00:49:03.660 that we do in life.
00:49:05.900 And in fact,
00:49:06.780 most of the times
00:49:07.840 when you decline
00:49:09.280 to do a bad thing,
00:49:11.800 and maybe you want
00:49:12.820 to give yourself
00:49:13.340 moral credit for it
00:49:14.500 and say,
00:49:14.860 oh, I didn't do that
00:49:15.400 because it's wrong.
00:49:16.180 But really, no,
00:49:16.840 that's not really
00:49:17.440 the reason you didn't do it.
00:49:18.380 The real reason
00:49:18.860 you didn't do it
00:49:19.480 is probably because
00:49:20.280 you didn't want to.
00:49:21.760 Like I went into
00:49:22.380 a store recently,
00:49:23.580 kind of a mom and pop shop,
00:49:25.300 and I was looking around
00:49:26.980 and whoever was supposed
00:49:28.320 to be at the cash register
00:49:29.080 was in the back
00:49:29.840 for like 10 minutes.
00:49:31.040 Store was unattended.
00:49:32.560 There were no cameras.
00:49:35.240 And I thought to myself,
00:49:36.540 anyone could just walk in here
00:49:37.700 and steal whatever they want.
00:49:39.220 I could have stolen
00:49:39.980 whatever I wanted.
00:49:41.140 I didn't steal anything.
00:49:42.480 Why didn't I steal something?
00:49:43.980 I had the opportunity.
00:49:45.520 Why didn't I steal it?
00:49:46.440 Is it because stealing is wrong?
00:49:47.740 Well, stealing is wrong,
00:49:48.700 but that's not why
00:49:49.340 I didn't do it.
00:49:49.840 I didn't do it
00:49:50.220 because I didn't want to.
00:49:50.940 I just had no desire to steal.
00:49:53.600 That's not something
00:49:54.340 I want to do.
00:49:54.760 I don't want to steal.
00:49:56.060 No desire.
00:49:57.020 Didn't even cross my mind.
00:49:58.640 It crossed my mind
00:49:59.200 as an option for someone else,
00:50:00.580 and I was hoping
00:50:01.220 the guy would come out soon,
00:50:02.540 so that wouldn't happen.
00:50:04.860 Now,
00:50:06.120 what if I was in that store,
00:50:08.920 same situation,
00:50:10.240 I got all the opportunity
00:50:11.600 in the world,
00:50:12.220 but I really, really,
00:50:13.840 really want to steal.
00:50:15.160 Maybe I'm a kleptomaniac.
00:50:16.680 Maybe I've just been raised
00:50:17.860 that stealing is okay.
00:50:18.940 Maybe I have a, you know,
00:50:21.280 I've fallen on hard times,
00:50:22.940 and I, you know, whatever.
00:50:23.720 Like,
00:50:24.080 what if I really had
00:50:25.600 that strong desire?
00:50:26.500 Would I have stolen?
00:50:27.880 I don't know.
00:50:29.400 Maybe.
00:50:31.700 You know,
00:50:32.260 I think
00:50:32.660 in order to know
00:50:34.560 if
00:50:36.220 we are essentially slaves
00:50:38.300 to opportunity
00:50:39.300 and desire in our life,
00:50:40.440 we just have to look
00:50:41.180 and see,
00:50:41.760 you know,
00:50:42.380 how many occasions
00:50:44.800 have there been in my life
00:50:46.060 when I've really wanted
00:50:47.540 to do something bad
00:50:48.580 and I've really had
00:50:49.980 the chance to do it
00:50:50.920 without there being
00:50:51.640 any consequence
00:50:52.340 and I didn't do it.
00:50:55.740 And I think
00:50:56.360 if we do an honest assessment
00:50:57.740 and we realize that,
00:50:59.720 you know,
00:51:00.340 pretty much every time
00:51:01.600 I want to do something
00:51:02.380 and I have the chance
00:51:03.040 to do it,
00:51:03.320 I do it.
00:51:04.620 If that's the case for us,
00:51:06.600 then that means
00:51:07.480 that
00:51:08.520 that's pretty much
00:51:10.200 100% confirmation
00:51:11.280 that if you were
00:51:12.140 in the situation
00:51:12.900 of the drug dealer
00:51:13.700 or the bank robber
00:51:14.600 or the suicide bomber,
00:51:15.860 you'd be doing
00:51:16.680 that stuff too.
00:51:20.340 But,
00:51:21.160 but,
00:51:22.640 opportunity and desire
00:51:24.900 often do determine
00:51:26.960 our actions
00:51:27.980 as human beings,
00:51:28.780 but they don't
00:51:29.920 have to.
00:51:31.040 You can overcome that.
00:51:33.560 I mean,
00:51:33.920 you can have
00:51:34.820 the desire
00:51:35.240 to do something bad
00:51:36.140 and the opportunity
00:51:37.460 and not do it.
00:51:39.520 Just like
00:51:40.300 you could do
00:51:41.420 something good
00:51:42.200 even though
00:51:42.820 you really don't want
00:51:43.840 to do the good thing
00:51:44.600 and it's a big hassle
00:51:45.520 to do it
00:51:46.420 and you could still
00:51:47.120 do it anyway.
00:51:48.840 Most people
00:51:49.380 don't act that way
00:51:50.180 because most people
00:51:50.860 lack virtue
00:51:51.660 and lack courage
00:51:52.620 and strength.
00:51:53.940 I'm one of them.
00:51:55.880 That doesn't mean
00:51:56.580 it has to be that way.
00:51:57.600 You can overcome that
00:51:58.740 and that's,
00:51:59.240 that's the beauty
00:52:00.140 of free will.
00:52:01.220 That's what it means
00:52:01.840 to be free.
00:52:03.900 You know,
00:52:04.500 and,
00:52:04.660 and,
00:52:04.840 and so that,
00:52:05.460 that's really the point.
00:52:06.520 I think what,
00:52:07.280 what Harris is really
00:52:08.020 getting at
00:52:08.400 is that we are
00:52:09.040 weak,
00:52:09.540 selfish people
00:52:10.100 and on that point
00:52:11.480 I have,
00:52:11.860 I,
00:52:12.100 I have no
00:52:13.560 disagreement
00:52:15.200 and he's also
00:52:17.180 making the point
00:52:17.760 that,
00:52:18.180 hey,
00:52:18.360 you know,
00:52:19.100 you're a weak,
00:52:19.900 selfish person
00:52:20.560 and so maybe
00:52:21.580 slow your roll
00:52:22.480 a little bit,
00:52:23.460 you know,
00:52:23.960 in,
00:52:24.460 in,
00:52:24.740 in feeling superior
00:52:25.780 to all these other people
00:52:26.540 that have done bad things
00:52:27.480 because you probably
00:52:28.180 do the same thing.
00:52:29.760 You like to claim
00:52:30.560 you wouldn't
00:52:30.920 but you probably would
00:52:31.800 and on that point
00:52:33.320 I agree,
00:52:33.860 it's a good point
00:52:34.400 but I just,
00:52:36.220 I wish he could make
00:52:37.060 that point
00:52:37.540 without bringing free will
00:52:38.480 into it
00:52:38.880 because,
00:52:39.320 you know,
00:52:40.560 free will is also
00:52:41.360 the thing that is,
00:52:42.500 is,
00:52:42.820 is,
00:52:43.280 that is the,
00:52:45.260 it's freedom.
00:52:45.980 I mean,
00:52:46.200 it's also the,
00:52:46.980 the escape offered
00:52:48.620 to people in these
00:52:50.260 horrible situations.
00:52:52.560 What about,
00:52:53.220 what about the kid
00:52:53.840 who is brought up
00:52:54.500 in a situation
00:52:55.020 where most people
00:52:55.660 become drug dealers?
00:52:56.760 Don't we want
00:52:57.520 to say to him,
00:52:58.780 look,
00:52:59.500 you don't have to do this,
00:53:00.860 you can make
00:53:01.720 a better choice,
00:53:02.460 you don't have to be
00:53:03.200 a slave to this,
00:53:04.000 you can do something better?
00:53:06.120 Sam Harris seems
00:53:06.880 to be saying,
00:53:07.340 and anyone who's a determinist
00:53:08.280 is basically saying,
00:53:09.360 no,
00:53:09.580 there's no point
00:53:10.000 of even,
00:53:10.880 of even,
00:53:11.500 of even relaying
00:53:13.180 that message
00:53:13.740 to that kid
00:53:14.300 because he has no choice
00:53:15.300 and I think
00:53:17.040 that's a horrible,
00:53:17.940 horrible mistake.
00:53:19.960 All right,
00:53:20.780 so that's free will
00:53:22.480 and I also chose,
00:53:25.520 it was my free will
00:53:26.200 to spend 30 minutes
00:53:27.100 babbling about that
00:53:28.520 so there you go.
00:53:31.200 We all make choices.
00:53:32.600 That was mine
00:53:33.060 and I think
00:53:34.060 we'll leave it here.
00:53:34.500 Thanks everybody
00:53:34.940 for watching.
00:53:35.480 Thanks for listening.
00:53:36.380 Godspeed.
00:53:39.780 If you enjoyed this episode,
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00:53:57.320 Thanks for listening.
00:53:57.940 The Matt Wall Show
00:53:59.820 is produced by
00:54:00.880 Sean Hampton,
00:54:01.840 executive producer
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00:54:03.760 senior producer
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00:54:07.480 supervising producer
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00:54:15.180 The Matt Wall Show
00:54:15.940 is a Daily Wire production,
00:54:17.520 copyright Daily Wire 2020.
00:54:19.580 Hey everyone,
00:54:20.520 it's Andrew Klavan,
00:54:21.360 host of The Andrew Klavan Show.
00:54:23.100 The Iranians 0.99
00:54:23.760 have taken to the street
00:54:24.660 to protest
00:54:25.240 their oppressive government
00:54:26.220 which overturns
00:54:27.300 the media narrative
00:54:28.080 that Trump's killing
00:54:28.900 of a terrorist leader
00:54:29.740 united them.
00:54:30.980 But the question
00:54:31.540 isn't whether
00:54:32.160 the media lies,
00:54:33.360 it's whether the left
00:54:34.260 wants to hear the truth
00:54:35.500 at all.
00:54:36.300 You will hear it
00:54:37.000 on The Andrew Klavan Show.
00:54:38.220 I'm Andrew Klavan.