The Matt Walsh Show - Ep. 75 - What is the Point of Evangelical Atheism？

00:00:00.000 So Richard Dawkins is working on a children's book, which he hopes will indoctrinate children

00:00:06.100 into atheism. And this brings to mind a question that I've always wondered about. I find myself

00:00:12.080 always perplexed by the sort of evangelical atheism espoused by guys like Dawkins. And I'm

00:00:17.480 not going to use Dawkins as the prime example, because I know that even atheists are embarrassed

00:00:23.020 by Dawkins and for good reason. But he's far from the only evangelical atheists. This is a pretty

00:00:29.080 common thing, especially among modern atheists. There are a great many of them who, although

00:00:33.980 they're less obnoxious than Richard Dawkins, I still find them just as perplexing. And because

00:00:38.260 evangelical atheism, that is to go around preaching atheism and trying to convert people to it,

00:00:43.980 just seems so pointless. And it seems like it is not really in the spirit of atheism to be

00:00:49.540 evangelical about it. So I want to try to work through this and figure it out. And to begin,

00:00:55.000 we have to go back to the basics and start with, what is atheism? What do atheists believe? Well,

00:01:01.660 if you are an atheist, and if you are a rational atheist who has fully thought things through,

00:01:10.900 and if you fully comprehend the implications of your worldview, then you must believe that life has

00:01:16.240 no objective meaning or purpose. Now, you can infuse purpose and meaning into it subjectively,

00:01:22.560 but objectively, it has no great purpose. Because in order for a thing to have a purpose,

00:01:27.420 that purpose has to come from above it and beyond it. So a hammer that is just floating in the ocean by

00:01:36.880 itself in the middle of the Pacific has no purpose. It's just there. It's just floating,

00:01:43.700 and it has no purpose whatsoever. In order for a... What gives a hammer purpose,

00:01:49.180 the reason why it has purpose is that there are nails to be hammered. And there is a person to

00:01:55.600 pick up the hammer and use it to drive a nail into a board and to build like a house. And a house has

00:02:03.480 a purpose because there are people to live in it. So there is this, in order to have purpose,

00:02:08.720 there's something beyond, something above, something that kind of transcends it.

00:02:13.260 And so by that equation, people have purpose because why? What is the objective purpose of a

00:02:23.420 person? Well, I would say our objective that we have an objective purpose because we have a God

00:02:27.820 to serve. But without God, the purpose can no longer be real, no longer be objective and solid.

00:02:33.680 There is whatever purpose you can find, whatever makes you happy and numbs the pain. But in reality,

00:02:38.320 we're just bags of meat floating in a random and infinite abyss. So if that hammer floating in

00:02:44.220 the ocean were ever to unfortunately become self-aware, then it would, I guess it will need

00:02:49.260 to come up with some kind of subjective purpose for its existence floating in the ocean. Although I

00:02:54.920 guess a hammer wouldn't really float in the ocean, what it would be, it would probably sink. But still,

00:02:58.180 let's say a hammer at the bottom of the ocean becomes self-aware. It may want to come up with

00:03:02.140 some reason for its own existence, just so we can deal with the terrible agony of its existence. But

00:03:10.040 in reality, it has no purpose. It's just a thing down at the bottom of the ocean. On atheism, that's

00:03:17.540 kind of what we all are. We're all just things floating around. The earth itself is just a thing

00:03:27.060 careening through space. It's just a thing. We're all just things. So there can be no greater,

00:03:34.120 no transcendent meaning to existence. Existence is just existence. We are all just the sum of our own

00:03:42.020 parts. And our parts are material. Our parts are just stuff. Our stuff happens to be assembled this

00:03:50.020 way. A hammer's stuff is assembled that way. A tree's stuff is assembled another way. A rock's

00:03:56.940 stuff is assembled still another way. But objectively, our existence has no meaning that

00:04:01.620 is greater than the meaning of a rock or a tree. It has no purpose greater than a rock or tree's

00:04:07.860 purpose. Because we're all stuff. We are stuff that has come together by chance and which will soon

00:04:13.140 disintegrate into the oblivion. And so that's it. Non-existence. You are, from the atheist view, 0.97

00:04:20.440 heading into non-existence. The total cessation of being. All that you have ever done, everything

00:04:26.680 you've ever thought, said, all of that will be erased and forgotten. Everything that you are will

00:04:32.240 fade into the void and amount to nothing and mean nothing. Everyone you've ever loved, your spouse,

00:04:38.640 your children, your parents, your friends, they're all headed for the same void. And once they've entered

00:04:43.280 it, they are gone. All is gone. And all that's ever happened to you ultimately will mean and amount

00:04:48.960 to nothing. This is the atheist view. Even if you don't go around saying it, that is your view. 0.77

00:04:55.380 We are all just headed for nothingness. And once you are in the nothingness, nothing matters anymore.

00:05:01.700 So then the question is, why do you care what people believe? If people find meaning in, as you say,

00:05:10.600 a fairy tale, well, good for them. Why do you care? What possible reason could you have for caring

00:05:18.440 that people believe in a fairy tale? Now, of course, I don't think religion is a fairy tale,

00:05:22.700 but by your view, it is. What I really can't understand is if I were to ever adopt that view,

00:05:29.060 why would I care what other people believe? Now, there's a reason why a Christian cares what you 1.00

00:05:35.440 believe, because we believe that there is a life beyond this one. And what happens in that life

00:05:41.080 beyond this one matters very, it depends very much on, you know, what you believe and what you do in

00:05:47.020 this life. And so that's why we're, you could say that we're crazy, you don't agree, but it makes sense

00:05:53.280 why we are evangelical about it. It doesn't make any sense why you would be. Considering we are,

00:06:00.280 you know, you and I both in a few years, we're just nothing. What does it matter? Just like,

00:06:07.400 so I believe a fairy tale. Let me believe the fairy tale. Why could you possibly care about this?

00:06:12.860 What's the point? You know, Karl Marx says that, famously says that religion is the opium of the

00:06:21.180 people. And okay, fine. So it's something that people find to give them hope and joy and pleasure

00:06:28.180 in a meaningless life that comes to nothing in the end. So why would you try to step in the way of

00:06:32.700 that? Why would you try to take that away from them? In fact, it's interesting that most atheists 0.99

00:06:35.860 you talk to, um, are going to be very libertarian about actual drugs, like actual opium. So they're

00:06:41.520 going to say that, Hey, if somebody wants to do heroin, let them do heroin. Uh, yeah, it's hurting

00:06:45.720 them. It might kill them. But if it makes them feel good, if it's what they want to do, it's their

00:06:49.320 body, let them do it. It doesn't matter. So I don't understand how you could have that opinion about

00:06:53.980 actual drugs that are actually directly physically killing people. And yet you don't have that view

00:06:59.680 of this mental or spiritual drug, as you see it. So you have that view of actual opium,

00:07:05.540 but the religious opium, you say, no, we must take that away from people. Why? Well, you might say

00:07:12.980 that you do it because religion is a blight on the earth and it's led to great suffering. Well, 1.00

00:07:17.900 that's also true of drugs, by the way. And so, but we'll leave that to the side. Okay. Now that's,

00:07:23.780 that's not, that's not true. Of course, uh, religion has sometimes been used as an excuse

00:07:29.680 to hurt people. Certain religions are much more often used to that end than others,

00:07:33.820 but atheist governments have also brought misery and, and, and death, uh, on the masses on an 0.95

00:07:40.580 unprecedented scale, I might add. And if you know anything about even recent world history,

00:07:44.700 you must realize that. And atheists themselves individually, I'm sure you would admit, are at

00:07:49.400 least just as likely to commit acts of violence and evil as anyone else. So that means that, uh,

00:07:54.880 you, you, you can't, you can't blame religion for, um, bad things that happen, but also you're an

00:08:03.320 atheist. So you know that we're just animals. We are, we are slaves to nature and nature is harsh,

00:08:09.100 violent, uncaring, brutal. And you know, as an atheist, that we can never rise above our nature

00:08:14.560 because there's nothing above our nature to rise towards. All is nature. Nature is everything.

00:08:20.180 So to blame the evil and violence in the world on religion is absurd. And you must know that evil

00:08:24.360 and violence are just nature. It's just the way of things. It will never change. It can't change.

00:08:29.300 And why should we try to change it? You know, a shark doesn't try to change his ways and stop eating

00:08:34.600 seals. A lion doesn't get all guilt tripped. If he, uh, if he kills a zebra and then sees that the

00:08:39.760 zebra has a child and he says, Oh my, Oh my goodness, what have I done? He doesn't do that.

00:08:44.120 A male gorilla will beat another gorilla to death and not even think about it. Um, because this is

00:08:50.740 just how nature acts. There's no chance of escaping it. And why should we try? Why are we, we're no

00:08:56.820 different than the, the lion, the gorilla, the shark. Why should we be, why should we hold ourselves

00:09:02.520 to a higher standard? What is evil anyway? You would never speak of a shark or a lion or a gorilla or a

00:09:10.800 virus committing evil? Would you matter how much death and suffering those creatures bring on other

00:09:16.640 creatures? You would never say that they commit evil. So, so why should we be held to that standard?

00:09:21.880 It's a social construct and artificial invention. A evil doesn't even exist on atheism. There's no

00:09:27.800 rational way to blame religion for evil, but there's also no such thing as evil anyway. So that can't be

00:09:35.820 a reason. The idea that religion is evil cannot be a reason. That can't possibly be a reason for

00:09:42.160 trying to convert people away from it because religion is no worse than atheism. As far as that

00:09:46.340 goes, I would argue it's better, but it's certainly no worse. And also evil doesn't exist. So, and this

00:09:50.940 is all just in keeping with, with, with the way of nature. Like a, so, you know, let's say in your,

00:09:57.280 in your, in your, um, worst case scenario, a religious government comes into power and establishes 0.96

00:10:02.840 this oppressive theocracy and imposes its will on others. Well, that's just Darwinism. That's just

00:10:08.080 dog eat dog. That's, that's what we're supposed to do, right? That's what nature says. That's how

00:10:12.640 every organism on the planet behaves. So why shouldn't you do that? Why shouldn't we? So that

00:10:18.760 can't be a reason. What is it then? Well, you might say you preach atheism because atheism is true.

00:10:25.620 And so you preach it because what's true is true and you preach it for the sake of truth,

00:10:31.260 truth. But who cares? Who cares if it's true? What value does the truth have? What does the truth

00:10:38.520 matter? Our ability to even recognize the truth is an aberration. It's the result of a mutation. I

00:10:44.720 would say it's a sick joke that the universe has pulled on us. There are 9 million other species on

00:10:50.360 earth, hundreds of millions of species in the history of the earth. None of them are or have ever been

00:10:55.800 self-aware. None of them have the capability of comprehending themselves or death or truth.

00:11:01.260 And scientists believe that there, that there, there could be a 99% probability that we're the

00:11:05.580 only intelligent creatures in the whole galaxy. They say there's a 50 to 60% probability that we're

00:11:10.480 the only intelligent creatures in the, in the known observable universe. So that means we're the,

00:11:16.240 as far as we know, we are the only creatures in the observable universe who have this, um, self-awareness,

00:11:24.140 this ability to see truth. And, and think about all the other matter in the galaxy. We all come from the

00:11:30.140 same stuff, right? We're, we're all essentially the same. In the end, we're all just inanimate matter

00:11:36.660 that has assembled itself in a certain way. And for us, it assembled itself in a way as to produce

00:11:43.060 animation and to produce at least the illusion of consciousness. Um, but we're all just, you know,

00:11:48.900 we're all, we are all just, um, the sum of our parts. And, and, uh, so out of all these trillions

00:11:55.840 and trillions and trillions of things in the universe, we are the only ones, as far as we

00:12:01.820 know, that have the capacity to know ourselves and know truth. The only ones. Now, I won't even

00:12:09.580 get into the fact that this doesn't really make any sense. You know, reason cannot spring forth

00:12:16.900 from unreason. Consciousness cannot come from unconsciousness. It makes no sense that, that,

00:12:22.900 that a universe of unreason, a universe with no self-awareness at all, a universe of matter with

00:12:29.000 no designer and no God could somehow feature one small little race of, of, of reasonable self-aware

00:12:35.840 creatures. And what a horrible thing in such a cold and pointless universe for this lonely little

00:12:41.340 collection of beings to be cursed with the knowledge of the futility of their own existence.

00:12:45.580 And what a horrible thing that somehow nature has, has given us not only reason, but has also given

00:12:52.820 us this infinite longing for something beyond something greater, something that transcends

00:12:59.080 ourselves, something that doesn't exist. We're also the only creatures in the known universe,

00:13:05.040 as far as we know, that have that, that have this great deep desire for a non-existent thing.

00:13:12.700 Why would, and why would nature evolve such a desire? It doesn't make any sense.

00:13:18.240 And why, why would nature evolve from, from the atheist view? They say, well, nature evolved

00:13:22.900 self-awareness for people, human beings evolved consciousness because that's what we needed to

00:13:29.400 propagate our species. But, well, first of all, you really had, you still haven't explained how that

00:13:34.420 actually functionally happens, but also how does consciousness, how does self-awareness help us

00:13:39.500 propagate the species? The only thing nature is concerned with, right, is this, is just,

00:13:42.820 is just the propagation of itself. And, uh, and there are many species that are more numerous

00:13:48.040 than we are and do not have consciousness and do not have self-awareness. There are many species that

00:13:51.860 have existed a heck of a, a heck of a lot longer than us and, uh, do not have consciousness and do not

00:13:57.080 have self-awareness. In fact, reason not only doesn't help our species propagate, but it actually

00:14:02.900 interferes with it. It does the opposite. As reasonable beings, we are the only ones, as far as we know,

00:14:08.040 that actually make the decision to not propagate the species. So how could it have come about? It

00:14:15.360 doesn't make any sense. But that's not the point. I'm just trying to establish that our capacity to

00:14:21.680 understand truth is accidental and I think pretty horrific. So why are you appealing to it? It's just

00:14:30.320 this totally meaningless and accidental function that, that, that, that, this function that we happen

00:14:36.500 to have that serves no great purpose. Why are you appealing to it? Who cares? To, to hell with truth

00:14:43.640 in that case. What does it matter? The truth is a horror. It would be better if we don't confront it

00:14:49.040 on the atheist view. Not to mention, how can we even trust our perception of truth? If reason is just

00:14:57.520 the result of unreason assembling itself in a certain way, then to trust our reason is to trust the material

00:15:05.480 irrational things that comprise our reason. And how do we do that? Reason, rationality, these are but

00:15:12.360 illusions in the atheist view. Rationality is a projection of irrationality. So rationality doesn't

00:15:19.460 really exist. It's just, you know, an apple tree can't give you bananas. An apple tree can only give

00:15:25.800 you apples. Well, our roots, our tree, our trunk is irrationality. That is what we're comprised of,

00:15:33.680 is irrational, unconscious matter. So how could the fruits be anything but irrationality and

00:15:41.860 unconsciousness? I think on atheism, to really understand and comprehend truth is to go insane.

00:15:47.500 It is to see yourself as you are, which is you are not really a self. You're no more a self than a

00:15:55.920 clump of dirt is a self. Your perception of selfhood is illusory. You're just matter among matter. You are

00:16:02.920 a collection of physical things. You are a lump of stuff and nothing more. So if you really want to

00:16:07.680 live in the truth and advocate for the truth, then you would have to live with the knowledge that there

00:16:11.620 is no you and everything you think, do, say, and believe is just the result of chemical interactions.

00:16:16.520 And so how can you even trust it? So it seemed on the atheist view, there's no reason to appeal to

00:16:22.460 truth, and you really can't. Because how do you know you can trust your own perception of truth?

00:16:28.400 So that can't be the reason why atheists preach atheism. I think we're left with only three

00:16:32.460 possibilities. One, they really believe that atheism is true. They believe that life is horrible and

00:16:37.860 meaningless, and they want others to join them in their despair. It's a misery loves company kind of

00:16:43.560 thing. And so it's really, it's really cruelty in the end. And I think that's the case for some of

00:16:49.380 them. Two, for other atheists, I think they don't really believe that atheism is true, or they aren't

00:16:56.200 quite sure, but they're angry at God for any number of reasons. So their denial of him is their way of

00:17:02.660 lashing out at him. And their recruiting of other people is a rebellion against God. I think that's the

00:17:09.540 case for some of them. But three, I think that many atheists just haven't thought this all the way

00:17:17.280 out. They aren't trying to be cruel, and they don't perceive that they hate God. They don't consciously

00:17:23.920 hate God. They're not consciously angry at him. They truly believe on some level that he doesn't exist,

00:17:29.680 but they fight for what they believe is true, because they see the truth as this transcendent and

00:17:37.100 important thing. They think that it is morally right to speak truth. And they believe that we

00:17:45.260 should live according to what is morally right. In other words, they disbelieve in God, but their

00:17:50.680 hearts and their souls, I would say, are pulling them towards this recognition of a world where truth

00:17:56.980 is transcendent and moral rightness is worth fighting for. And I think that's good. Now, I think

00:18:01.960 they're wrong in a lot of their conclusions, but the motivation there, at least that part of the

00:18:07.420 motivation is good. I just wish they'd stopped to think about where they got this idea of truth and

00:18:16.560 this idea of right and wrong. Now, if you're an atheist and you really think that religion is a moral

00:18:23.240 abomination, and so you fight for it on that ground, you fight for it because you say, well, I ought

00:18:29.320 to fight against religion, and a person ought not be religious. Well, the moment that you've made that 0.53

00:18:37.400 statement, then you have to ask yourself, where did you get this conception of ought to and ought not to?

00:18:44.960 No other creature on earth has that conception. You don't have squirrels and deer running around

00:18:51.660 saying, well, I ought to do this, or I shouldn't do that. They never think that. So where did you get

00:18:57.740 that from? That's interesting, isn't it? This idea of I ought to, I ought not to. And what happens? Now,

00:19:03.320 if you're doing something and someone comes up to you and says, you ought not do that, what is your

00:19:08.280 first question to them? What is it? It's says who? And so if you're committing a crime and someone

00:19:13.900 comes up and says, you ought not do that, and you say says who, they might say, well, the government

00:19:17.920 says it, and if you do it, you'll go to jail. And so fine, that's a reason. But if you're doing something

00:19:22.320 that is not illegal and it's just immoral and someone comes up to you and says, well, you ought

00:19:29.000 not do that, and then you say, says who? Well, what's the answer to that? Every time you say ought

00:19:36.920 to or ought not to, you are appealing to an authority of some kind. You must be. Because if

00:19:44.240 there is no authority, if there is no command or law or rule that we're supposed to be following,

00:19:50.260 that it makes no sense to say ought to and ought not to. If there is no God, if there's no objective

00:19:56.020 moral code ingrained in us from above, then your conception of what we should do and shouldn't do

00:20:03.460 means nothing. Because when I say says who, you'd have to say, well, nobody. Nobody says it. And then

00:20:09.880 I can say, okay, well then what, that's okay, but I'm going to keep doing it. So all I would ask is if

00:20:15.240 you're an atheist, maybe follow your own train of thought. You say you don't believe in God. Okay.

00:20:19.900 Yet, you still see truth as this thing that we should strive towards. And you still see moral

00:20:27.820 rightness as an objective good. So it seems like you're reaching for something. You're reaching for

00:20:34.500 something that is above and beyond nature. You're reaching for something that is not contained in

00:20:40.440 nature and obviously was not created by nature. So all I would ask you to think to yourself is,

00:20:46.900 what am I reaching to? Or maybe I should say, who am I reaching to? Just something to think

00:20:54.240 about. Thank you for watching. Thanks for listening. Godspeed, everybody.

The Matt Walsh Show - August 02, 2018

Ep. 75 - What is the Point of Evangelical Atheism？

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