The Matt Walsh Show - August 03, 2018


Ep. 76 - Is The Pope Right About The Death Penalty？


Episode Stats

Length

30 minutes

Words per Minute

152.70795

Word Count

4,596

Sentence Count

273

Hate Speech Sentences

6


Summary

In the wake of Pope Francis' announcement that the death penalty is no longer necessary in the United States, many have wondered if the Pope is trying to reverse a teaching that has been taught for over 2,000 years. In this episode, Fr. Carl M. M. Spalding explains why this is a catastrophically bad idea, and why Christians should not be so hard on capital punishment.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 So you probably heard that Pope Francis reversed Catholic church teaching on the death penalty.
00:00:04.680 And now normally when you hear things like this, you hear that the Pope reversed church
00:00:08.960 teaching on this or that subject.
00:00:11.060 Usually it's untrue.
00:00:12.120 Usually the media is sensationalizing some personal opinion that Pope Francis expressed
00:00:18.560 on a plane when he was talking to journalists or something like that.
00:00:21.740 But in this case, this time it is true, or it's true anyway, that the Pope is trying
00:00:28.540 to officially reverse a teaching of the church that has been in place for 2,000 years.
00:00:36.580 And that is very bad and wrong.
00:00:41.400 And I would even say catastrophically wrong.
00:00:44.720 I want to explain why.
00:00:46.220 There are two aspects to this conversation.
00:00:49.320 One is about what Francis is trying to do and whether he can do it.
00:00:54.480 And the other aspect is just the death penalty itself and how Christians are really supposed
00:00:59.700 to view the issue.
00:01:01.700 So I want to tackle both of these things.
00:01:03.600 I want to spend more time on the second point, but let's start with the first.
00:01:06.500 So on the first point, we should recall that the church has taught for 2,000 years.
00:01:12.620 It has always taught, and men like Aquinas and Augustine have affirmed this, it's always
00:01:17.500 been taught that the death penalty is in principle permissible.
00:01:21.340 In principle, the state has the authority from God to put criminals to death.
00:01:26.800 That is what has always been taught.
00:01:29.440 Even in modern times, when popes like Pope John Paul II have had personal objections to
00:01:37.000 the death penalty, still this essential teaching has not changed, that it is in principle permissible.
00:01:44.140 Now, that leaves a lot of room for discussion about when and in what context and for what
00:01:50.160 reason the death penalty can be used.
00:01:53.440 So there's a lot of discussion there.
00:01:54.820 And as modern technology has developed and as our prison systems have become more advanced
00:01:59.420 and more efficient and more able to safely segregate prisoners from society, it has been understood
00:02:06.760 understood by many Christians and some recent popes that the death penalty is no longer necessary
00:02:18.120 in most cases in advanced countries like our own.
00:02:23.220 But still, in principle, it has always been considered a morally acceptable act because governments
00:02:30.620 have that authority.
00:02:32.720 That is an authority that governments have.
00:02:36.060 And by the way, to say that the death penalty isn't necessary because a country is technologically
00:02:43.280 advanced and they have advanced prison systems, well, to make that argument assumes that the
00:02:49.400 sole function of capital punishment is simply to remove dangerous people from society in order
00:02:54.980 to protect the safety of individuals in society.
00:02:58.220 Now, that is one view of capital punishment, but I should add, it is mostly a modern view
00:03:05.180 and it is not really in keeping with the historical Christian understanding of capital punishment,
00:03:10.180 which has said for many centuries that capital punishment is a punishment.
00:03:14.660 We call it a punishment for a reason because it also has value as a punitive measure and as
00:03:21.600 an act of justice.
00:03:23.000 It is a means for society to not only segregate violent criminals, but to speak out and to say
00:03:31.360 that certain acts are simply intolerable and that's it.
00:03:36.320 That's something that can be discussed.
00:03:38.480 You know, we want to talk about the reasons for capital punishment.
00:03:42.120 What is the function of capital punishment?
00:03:43.620 These are all areas where there can be disagreement and discussion and debate.
00:03:46.520 But the relevant point is that the church has never, ever, ever, ever said that capital punishment is
00:03:54.600 absolutely wrong.
00:03:56.580 It is Pope Francis who is now, after 2,000 years, trying to instate that idea.
00:04:04.000 This is not a development of doctrine.
00:04:07.140 It's not what this is.
00:04:08.100 This is a change.
00:04:10.060 He is changing it.
00:04:11.840 And he's not even doing it, and we'll talk about this in a minute.
00:04:14.460 He's not even doing it based on development of doctrine.
00:04:18.460 He's basing it on the development of society.
00:04:22.380 And the change of teaching based on how society has developed is, again, catastrophically wrong.
00:04:29.780 Now, on a personal level, not that it matters how I feel personally, but the irony here is,
00:04:36.440 you know, as I am issuing, I guess, this defense of capital punishment,
00:04:40.360 on a personal level, I've waffled back and forth on the issue quite a bit.
00:04:44.740 I've rarely been firmly on one side or the other.
00:04:47.980 But my personal feeling most recently has been, and for the last few years,
00:04:53.900 that I oppose the death penalty in America.
00:04:57.100 But I don't believe, and I've never believed,
00:05:00.780 that the death penalty is inherently immoral in all cases across the world.
00:05:06.900 I've never believed that.
00:05:08.620 So, but that's just been my own, and that's just been my personal view.
00:05:13.300 My personal view, though, has no bearing on the moral facts of the matter.
00:05:20.900 And it has no bearing on what Christian teaching has traditionally been.
00:05:25.000 It has no bearing on what the Bible said.
00:05:27.520 And I recognize that my personal feelings do not supersede any of those things.
00:05:31.300 And I've also admitted in the past that my own feeling of,
00:05:36.120 you know, we shouldn't have the death penalty in America,
00:05:38.280 it is, I admit, it is largely an emotional thing.
00:05:42.660 It's an emotional kind of feeling in the gut of,
00:05:47.640 I don't like the idea of taking a guy out of a prison cell
00:05:51.360 and trotting him into an area, a place,
00:05:53.640 strapping him to a gurney and injecting poison into his veins.
00:05:56.820 And that is, I just, I don't, I don't feel right about that.
00:06:02.720 But I recognize, you know, facts don't care about your feelings, right?
00:06:08.120 So I recognize that.
00:06:10.200 I still have the feelings,
00:06:11.860 but I don't pretend that my feelings supersede anything.
00:06:14.980 But I have them.
00:06:16.380 And it is still, as I said, not inherently immoral.
00:06:19.160 But the Catechism now basically says that the death penalty is inherently immoral,
00:06:26.760 although it does not use the phrase inherently immoral.
00:06:28.820 Let's look at what the, here's what the new passage in the Catechism says,
00:06:32.260 now that Pope Francis has made his unilateral changes to it.
00:06:38.060 It says,
00:06:38.620 Recourse to the death penalty on the part of legitimate authority following a fair trial
00:06:42.720 was long considered an appropriate response to the gravity of certain crimes
00:06:46.140 and an acceptable, albeit extreme, means of safeguarding the common good.
00:06:49.680 Today, however, there is, listen to this,
00:06:52.260 an increasing awareness that the dignity of the person is not lost
00:06:57.440 even after the commission of very serious crimes.
00:07:00.180 In addition, a new understanding has emerged
00:07:02.920 of the significance of penal sanctions imposed by the state.
00:07:06.140 Lastly, more effective systems of detention have been developed,
00:07:10.180 which ensure the due protection of citizens,
00:07:12.600 but at the same time do not definitively deprive the guilty
00:07:15.540 of the possibility of redemption.
00:07:17.020 Consequently, the Church teaches, in light of the Gospel,
00:07:19.780 that the death penalty is inadmissible
00:07:21.620 because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person,
00:07:25.640 and she works with determination for its abolition worldwide.
00:07:30.240 So Francis has taken his own personal view,
00:07:33.300 and he has now put it forth as the position of the Church.
00:07:38.420 This is his own personal view.
00:07:40.340 This is his opinion.
00:07:42.300 This is not what the Church teaches.
00:07:45.320 The Church has not taught that, has never taught that.
00:07:48.460 This is his opinion that he has put into the Catechism
00:07:51.440 and said, the Church teaches.
00:07:54.120 No, that's what he teaches.
00:07:56.000 That's his opinion.
00:07:56.800 It has not been shared by the Church.
00:07:59.840 It has not been shared by most of the authoritative voices
00:08:02.860 in Christianity for 2,000 years,
00:08:05.280 and I would argue it is not at all shared by Scripture.
00:08:08.320 And then he justifies the change by quoting himself.
00:08:13.340 That part at the end where it says, in light of the Gospel,
00:08:15.920 the death penalty is inadmissible
00:08:17.620 because it's an attack on the inviolability
00:08:19.660 and dignity of the person.
00:08:21.120 That's in quotes.
00:08:22.140 And if you trace that quote back to its origin,
00:08:24.660 it's Pope Francis.
00:08:25.820 He's quoting himself to justify a change to Church teaching.
00:08:30.640 And he says now that the death penalty
00:08:32.100 is inadmissible on a worldwide scale,
00:08:35.540 which to me is the exact same thing
00:08:37.780 as calling it inherently immoral.
00:08:40.080 I see now, and people who are defending this
00:08:43.100 are trying to draw some distinction and say,
00:08:45.060 well, just because it's inadmissible
00:08:46.460 doesn't mean that it's immoral.
00:08:48.600 Give me a break.
00:08:49.360 Now, if you tell me that it's inadmissible
00:08:51.320 in certain circumstances,
00:08:53.440 then yes, it doesn't mean that it's immoral.
00:08:56.700 But that's already what the Church taught.
00:08:58.620 The Church already taught that in many circumstances
00:09:01.000 in the modern world, it's inadmissible,
00:09:02.500 but that doesn't mean that it's inadmissible
00:09:03.540 across the board.
00:09:05.400 That's, no, Pope Francis is not saying that.
00:09:07.980 He's saying it's inadmissible across the board
00:09:09.720 for everyone, worldwide.
00:09:13.440 So if something is inadmissible in every case
00:09:16.560 for everyone across the world,
00:09:18.300 that means it's inherently immoral.
00:09:21.440 Because if it's not inherently immoral,
00:09:23.520 then it cannot possibly be inadmissible
00:09:25.460 for everyone in every case across the world.
00:09:28.740 So this is a distinction without a difference.
00:09:31.820 And again, I must remind you that this idea
00:09:33.800 that the death penalty is inadmissible across the world
00:09:36.180 has never been taught by the Church.
00:09:38.640 Never been taught.
00:09:39.560 And it finds little support through the centuries.
00:09:41.920 For 2,000 years, the Church said it was admissible,
00:09:44.340 and now Francis says that it isn't.
00:09:50.060 And what is his reason for this change?
00:09:52.200 Well, he says that the modern prison system
00:09:54.500 negates the need for it.
00:09:57.320 That's false, of course, because a great many countries
00:10:00.800 do not have modern prison systems.
00:10:03.560 And yet he still calls for the abolition
00:10:05.700 of the death penalty even in those countries.
00:10:08.300 The prison system in North America and Western Europe,
00:10:10.800 they are not representative of the prison systems in Africa
00:10:14.120 or most of Asia or in South Africa,
00:10:16.540 or I should say in South America.
00:10:18.560 They do not represent what the prison system looks like
00:10:22.220 in all of those countries.
00:10:24.020 They certainly do not represent the prison system
00:10:26.520 in third world countries that barely have governments.
00:10:31.220 And so their prison systems are just basically a cage
00:10:35.680 infested with fleas and lice and human sewage
00:10:39.020 where you've got 20 people crammed in
00:10:41.100 and then you throw another person in
00:10:42.360 and you give them buckets of gruel or whatever to live on.
00:10:46.640 And guess what?
00:10:48.780 The prison systems that are like that,
00:10:52.220 which are not uncommon in the world,
00:10:54.440 they haven't changed for centuries.
00:10:57.580 The prison system in a third world country
00:11:00.120 is essentially the same now as it was 500 years ago.
00:11:04.580 So it is just false to claim
00:11:09.380 that technological advancements
00:11:11.580 have made the death penalty obsolete
00:11:14.780 because you can only argue that
00:11:18.440 in one portion of the world.
00:11:21.100 It doesn't apply to the rest,
00:11:23.320 yet you have used that argument
00:11:25.540 and applied it to the entire world.
00:11:27.540 But more to the point,
00:11:33.760 Francis says incredibly that the change is made
00:11:37.460 because we moderns apparently have
00:11:39.800 a greater awareness of human dignity.
00:11:43.620 We have a new understanding which has emerged.
00:11:48.360 He is accusing the historical church
00:11:50.220 of having an insufficient awareness of human dignity.
00:11:53.620 This is an incredible charge
00:11:55.540 and it's completely false and it's dangerous
00:11:57.560 and it's in need of correction.
00:12:01.220 That's the real problem here.
00:12:02.480 No matter how you feel about the death penalty,
00:12:03.840 Francis has now called into question
00:12:06.220 his own church's ability
00:12:08.380 to make any moral declarations on any subject.
00:12:13.540 He is saying, think about that phrase,
00:12:15.900 a new understanding has emerged.
00:12:20.080 Well, first of all,
00:12:21.720 I simply don't agree
00:12:24.320 that the modern world
00:12:26.640 has a greater understanding
00:12:28.480 or awareness on moral issues
00:12:30.460 or on the subject of human dignity.
00:12:32.500 I do not see that
00:12:33.600 when I look around the world.
00:12:35.420 But in terms of new understandings emerging,
00:12:38.560 where are these understandings emerging from?
00:12:41.000 Where are they?
00:12:42.200 Are they popping out of the ground?
00:12:43.540 Are they falling from the sky?
00:12:44.600 Are they growing on trees?
00:12:46.220 Where is the understanding tree
00:12:47.800 where they emerged from?
00:12:48.720 You say, oh, well, here's a new understanding.
00:12:50.320 Here's an understanding
00:12:51.800 that suddenly we all have
00:12:53.200 that nobody else had before.
00:12:56.960 But think about this justification.
00:13:00.640 If the church lacked awareness
00:13:03.740 and understanding
00:13:05.020 on this essential matter of life and death,
00:13:10.300 then the question that Francis
00:13:12.820 is begging us to ask is,
00:13:15.200 on what other subjects
00:13:17.220 did it lack understanding and awareness?
00:13:20.320 What other new understandings might emerge?
00:13:31.000 Is Francis next going to tell us
00:13:32.900 that modern awareness and understanding
00:13:35.100 leads us to the conclusion
00:13:36.140 that the Homosexual Act
00:13:37.340 isn't necessarily disordered?
00:13:39.060 He has just given himself the groundwork
00:13:41.560 to do exactly that.
00:13:44.740 That's what he's done.
00:13:45.760 So, how should we consider
00:13:49.640 the death penalty question?
00:13:52.140 Well, let's remember,
00:13:55.200 and I'm not an expert.
00:13:56.460 I don't claim to be an expert.
00:13:58.100 In fact, I admit that I'm a waffling,
00:14:00.820 you know, emotional,
00:14:03.900 I waffle and I can be emotion-driven
00:14:07.300 on this subject.
00:14:08.140 I fully admit that,
00:14:09.220 which is why I do not refer,
00:14:12.120 I'm not going to quote myself.
00:14:13.180 Unlike Pope Francis,
00:14:13.820 I will not quote myself
00:14:14.860 as a way to try to sort through this.
00:14:17.480 Instead, all I'm saying is,
00:14:19.560 let's all look at the information
00:14:21.140 that is available to us.
00:14:22.920 That's all.
00:14:23.320 Don't take my word for it.
00:14:24.700 Let's look at the available information.
00:14:27.040 We know, we can see,
00:14:28.380 that God prescribes the death penalty
00:14:30.360 throughout the Old Testament,
00:14:33.000 most notably in Exodus,
00:14:34.980 where he says,
00:14:35.780 anyone who strikes a person
00:14:36.780 with a fatal blow
00:14:37.440 is to be put to death.
00:14:38.320 In Genesis, he says,
00:14:39.620 whoever sheds the blood of man,
00:14:40.940 by man shall his blood be shed,
00:14:42.680 for God made man in his own image.
00:14:44.640 Now, this view
00:14:45.440 is pretty clearly affirmed,
00:14:47.600 I think, in the New Testament
00:14:48.400 when St. Paul says,
00:14:49.740 for one in authority
00:14:50.900 is God's servant for your good.
00:14:53.620 But if you do wrong,
00:14:55.220 be afraid,
00:14:56.560 for rulers do not bear the sword
00:14:58.720 for no reason.
00:14:59.720 They are God's servants,
00:15:01.040 agents of wrath
00:15:03.020 to bring punishment
00:15:04.880 on the wrongdoer.
00:15:07.280 How do we imagine,
00:15:09.940 what do we imagine
00:15:11.300 bear the sword means
00:15:13.400 in this context?
00:15:15.240 And remember,
00:15:16.540 St. Paul is saying this
00:15:18.340 at a time
00:15:19.040 when governments would
00:15:20.480 quite literally
00:15:21.480 use the sword
00:15:22.520 to punish wrongdoers.
00:15:24.520 And St. Paul is,
00:15:26.240 I think,
00:15:27.100 explicitly endorsing that.
00:15:29.720 How else could you
00:15:31.060 possibly interpret it?
00:15:32.980 He is saying
00:15:33.600 that the government
00:15:34.860 is an agent of wrath
00:15:36.960 to punish wrongdoers
00:15:39.200 with the sword.
00:15:42.220 I think you really have
00:15:43.240 to twist yourself
00:15:43.880 into a pretzel
00:15:44.480 to claim
00:15:44.980 that that doesn't apply
00:15:46.220 to capital punishment.
00:15:47.700 Not only does it apply
00:15:48.800 to capital punishment,
00:15:49.500 but it seems clear to me
00:15:50.200 that he is talking
00:15:50.960 about capital punishment.
00:15:53.460 I mean,
00:15:54.080 how else does it need
00:15:55.260 to be phrased?
00:15:56.040 Does he need to say,
00:15:56.780 by the way,
00:15:58.040 I am speaking
00:15:58.700 about capital punishment?
00:16:00.380 No.
00:16:00.900 Paul is saying
00:16:01.680 the government
00:16:02.100 has the authority
00:16:04.040 from God
00:16:04.580 to use the sword
00:16:05.300 as a means of punishment.
00:16:07.260 Not even just
00:16:07.960 as a means of segregating,
00:16:09.320 not as a means
00:16:09.860 of societal self-defense,
00:16:11.040 but as a means
00:16:12.020 of punishment
00:16:13.000 to enact God's wrath
00:16:16.120 against wrongdoing.
00:16:18.560 Now, Jesus
00:16:19.440 had a pretty good chance
00:16:22.060 to repudiate
00:16:24.120 this whole notion
00:16:25.000 when he was crucified
00:16:26.620 and he was hanging
00:16:27.540 next to two criminals
00:16:28.920 who were also
00:16:30.740 condemned to death.
00:16:31.860 And one of the criminals
00:16:32.600 says,
00:16:33.540 I deserve this.
00:16:35.060 My punishment is just.
00:16:36.960 Now, Jesus could have said,
00:16:38.620 no, you don't deserve it.
00:16:39.820 This kind of punishment
00:16:40.580 is inadmissible.
00:16:42.620 But he doesn't say that.
00:16:44.680 In fact,
00:16:45.520 it is the criminal's very,
00:16:47.940 it is his penitent acceptance
00:16:50.400 of his punishment,
00:16:52.180 coupled with his recognition
00:16:53.220 of Christ,
00:16:53.880 that leads Christ
00:16:54.720 to say to him,
00:16:55.700 this day you will be
00:16:56.520 with me in paradise.
00:16:58.540 Which I think
00:16:59.520 interferes with two things.
00:17:00.480 It interferes with,
00:17:01.500 it interferes with
00:17:03.380 the argument
00:17:05.220 that the death penalty
00:17:06.100 is inherently immoral.
00:17:07.300 It also interferes
00:17:08.140 with the argument
00:17:08.600 that the death penalty
00:17:09.440 could prevent someone
00:17:11.740 from repenting
00:17:15.420 of their sins.
00:17:18.060 Because in this case,
00:17:19.320 in this very powerful story
00:17:20.460 in the Gospels,
00:17:21.140 it is this criminal's
00:17:23.940 punishment itself
00:17:25.400 which has brought him
00:17:27.960 to a recognition
00:17:28.940 of the severity
00:17:30.180 of his crimes.
00:17:31.520 And it is that recognition,
00:17:33.960 that penance,
00:17:34.920 that repentance,
00:17:37.120 which then leads him on
00:17:38.340 to Christ
00:17:39.340 and to eternal life.
00:17:41.760 So, we have that.
00:17:43.200 We have St. Paul.
00:17:44.200 We have the Word of God
00:17:45.020 in the Old Testament.
00:17:45.700 And then we also have
00:17:48.120 the general understanding
00:17:50.960 and awareness
00:17:52.180 of most authoritative voices
00:17:55.320 in Christianity
00:17:55.900 for at least
00:17:56.720 the first 19 centuries
00:17:58.600 of Christianity.
00:17:59.280 We have all of that,
00:18:00.580 all of that together.
00:18:02.680 Which weighs very heavily
00:18:05.420 on the side
00:18:06.320 of the death penalty
00:18:09.300 being admissible.
00:18:10.360 I would say,
00:18:12.840 in fact,
00:18:13.440 that it rules out
00:18:15.500 the possibility
00:18:16.340 that the death penalty
00:18:18.220 is intrinsically immoral.
00:18:20.720 And if the death penalty
00:18:21.860 is,
00:18:22.580 if the possibility
00:18:23.860 of the death penalty
00:18:24.500 being intrinsically immoral
00:18:25.660 is ruled out,
00:18:26.540 then the possibility
00:18:27.320 of making the death penalty
00:18:29.840 inadmissible
00:18:30.600 on a worldwide scale
00:18:31.580 is also ruled out.
00:18:32.760 It is unavoidably plain
00:18:37.500 the death penalty
00:18:39.200 in principle
00:18:39.880 is admissible.
00:18:40.560 And to say that it is not
00:18:41.800 and to say so
00:18:43.180 on the basis
00:18:43.800 of human dignity
00:18:44.820 is to accuse
00:18:45.760 God the Father,
00:18:47.420 God the Son,
00:18:48.900 St. Paul,
00:18:49.760 of having an insufficient
00:18:51.400 understanding
00:18:52.180 of human dignity.
00:18:54.300 Again,
00:18:55.020 this doesn't mean
00:18:55.720 that we have to support
00:18:56.740 the death penalty
00:18:57.300 in any particular situation,
00:18:59.200 but I think
00:19:00.200 it does preclude us
00:19:01.500 as Christians
00:19:02.200 from absolutely denying
00:19:03.920 the legitimacy
00:19:04.680 of capital punishment
00:19:05.880 as a form of punishment.
00:19:08.920 And the fact that
00:19:09.760 nearly every great
00:19:10.460 Christian theologian
00:19:11.260 I can think of
00:19:11.800 across the whole of Christendom
00:19:12.840 throughout history,
00:19:14.140 the fact that all of them
00:19:15.060 and most of the leaders
00:19:15.740 of the faith historically,
00:19:16.720 the fact that they have all
00:19:17.380 and Aquinas and Augustine
00:19:19.320 and all of them,
00:19:20.340 the fact that they have all
00:19:21.120 endorsed the moral legitimacy
00:19:22.720 of the death penalty
00:19:23.400 is really like icing on the cake
00:19:25.620 at that point.
00:19:28.000 I mean,
00:19:28.220 think about it.
00:19:29.160 Think about this here.
00:19:29.740 If we can just come outside
00:19:32.660 of our modern understanding
00:19:34.880 for a minute,
00:19:35.540 if we can release ourselves
00:19:37.520 from this modern sentimentality,
00:19:41.140 I think we will see
00:19:42.060 that when you consider
00:19:44.500 all of the issues
00:19:45.400 that Christians have fought
00:19:46.500 about over the years,
00:19:48.840 think of all the issues
00:19:49.640 that have torn us apart.
00:19:51.740 Yet even with all of that,
00:19:53.580 for most of the past 2,000 years,
00:19:55.920 there was very little controversy
00:19:57.640 over the death penalty.
00:19:59.560 There was near unanimous agreement
00:20:01.860 that it was acceptable.
00:20:04.820 And our modern sentimentality,
00:20:07.460 of which I am,
00:20:10.300 on this issue,
00:20:11.460 I admit,
00:20:12.260 plagued,
00:20:13.560 still,
00:20:15.020 it does not change
00:20:16.320 any of that.
00:20:19.700 It seems that the only way
00:20:21.460 for a Christian
00:20:22.180 to oppose the death penalty
00:20:23.600 in principle,
00:20:25.200 in every case,
00:20:26.000 is to say that God's word
00:20:28.340 on the subject
00:20:29.100 has expired
00:20:30.100 or it no longer holds.
00:20:33.040 But how can we say that?
00:20:36.620 Now,
00:20:37.820 Jesus,
00:20:38.600 in the New Testament,
00:20:40.620 does,
00:20:41.400 on several occasions,
00:20:42.640 go through a whole list
00:20:43.640 of formulas
00:20:44.340 where he says,
00:20:45.140 you know,
00:20:45.800 it has been said
00:20:47.500 or you were told X,
00:20:49.580 but I say unto you
00:20:51.400 Y.
00:20:52.480 Jesus has the authority
00:20:56.620 to do that.
00:20:58.020 You do not.
00:20:59.040 I do not.
00:20:59.840 The Pope does not.
00:21:02.280 The Pope does not have
00:21:03.980 the authority
00:21:04.520 to override God.
00:21:08.540 Does not have the authority
00:21:09.820 to do it.
00:21:11.860 Even in the Catholic understanding,
00:21:14.100 the Pope can defend,
00:21:15.660 articulate,
00:21:16.400 explain
00:21:16.980 matters of faith
00:21:20.960 and morals,
00:21:21.960 he cannot invent
00:21:23.540 teachings.
00:21:25.720 That he cannot do.
00:21:28.180 Jesus can say,
00:21:29.620 you were told this,
00:21:31.880 but this is what I tell you,
00:21:33.520 and this holds now.
00:21:35.400 Jesus can do that.
00:21:37.500 One other point
00:21:38.420 to consider here
00:21:39.740 about the human dignity argument.
00:21:44.140 First,
00:21:44.840 traditionally,
00:21:45.280 the death penalty
00:21:45.960 has been supported
00:21:47.000 on the basis
00:21:48.000 of human dignity.
00:21:49.480 That's the basis
00:21:50.320 that God provides
00:21:52.060 in Exodus
00:21:53.080 where he says,
00:21:54.420 or in Genesis,
00:21:56.280 when he says,
00:21:57.200 it is because
00:21:58.420 human beings
00:21:59.580 were made
00:22:00.180 in my image
00:22:01.640 that if you take
00:22:03.300 the life
00:22:03.680 of another human being,
00:22:04.480 your life must be taken.
00:22:06.860 So,
00:22:07.620 it is traditionally
00:22:09.020 been understood
00:22:09.620 that the death penalty
00:22:11.300 is a way
00:22:11.980 of enforcing
00:22:13.420 and kind of
00:22:14.780 underlining
00:22:15.580 the human dignity
00:22:17.280 by emphasizing
00:22:19.420 just how terrible
00:22:20.740 and intolerable
00:22:21.760 it is
00:22:22.380 for you to
00:22:23.540 take somebody's life
00:22:25.460 when they are made
00:22:26.140 in the image of God.
00:22:26.900 But second of all,
00:22:27.960 I am not at all convinced
00:22:29.620 that life in prison
00:22:31.340 is more humane
00:22:32.720 or more respecting
00:22:33.820 of dignity
00:22:34.460 than is capital punishment.
00:22:37.180 Now,
00:22:37.740 I agree that
00:22:38.300 when it comes
00:22:38.800 to capital punishment
00:22:40.060 and the issue
00:22:41.300 of human dignity,
00:22:42.100 we have two things
00:22:43.180 to take into consideration.
00:22:44.080 We have the human dignity
00:22:44.980 of the victim,
00:22:46.380 which must be taken
00:22:47.700 into consideration.
00:22:48.840 We also have
00:22:49.540 the human dignity
00:22:50.000 of the criminal,
00:22:51.760 of the guilty.
00:22:52.860 And they still have
00:22:54.680 human dignity.
00:22:55.500 Human dignity
00:22:56.160 is not something
00:22:59.440 that can be taken
00:23:00.080 away from you.
00:23:00.720 You can't lose it.
00:23:01.500 You always have it.
00:23:02.140 It's part of your nature.
00:23:04.080 So,
00:23:04.540 we have to take that
00:23:05.380 into consideration.
00:23:06.100 We have to respect it.
00:23:08.200 But,
00:23:09.020 I'm just not convinced
00:23:11.580 that in every case,
00:23:14.100 the best way
00:23:15.420 to respect
00:23:16.160 and uphold
00:23:17.220 a person's human dignity
00:23:18.360 is to keep them
00:23:19.120 locked in a cage
00:23:20.100 for 70 years.
00:23:21.900 I'm not convinced of that.
00:23:23.560 I'm especially
00:23:24.400 not convinced of it
00:23:25.220 in the case
00:23:25.680 of a third world country.
00:23:28.420 Because there,
00:23:29.420 when you've got a murderer,
00:23:30.740 you have three choices.
00:23:32.180 You can do nothing
00:23:33.020 with them
00:23:33.420 and let them go
00:23:34.140 into society.
00:23:34.860 I think we all agree
00:23:35.480 that that's wrong.
00:23:36.460 You can execute them,
00:23:37.660 or you can
00:23:40.140 lock them
00:23:41.080 in a cage
00:23:42.080 strewn with sewage
00:23:43.660 and infested
00:23:44.240 with lice
00:23:44.900 where they're going
00:23:46.060 to be having
00:23:47.240 very little to eat
00:23:48.240 and they're going
00:23:48.820 to be living
00:23:49.840 like a dog
00:23:50.840 for the rest
00:23:51.860 of their lives.
00:23:52.760 That's your other option.
00:23:53.720 There's only three options
00:23:54.760 and in a third world country,
00:23:56.140 those are your only options.
00:23:59.420 I don't believe
00:24:00.700 that that third option
00:24:01.780 is more in keeping
00:24:03.460 with human dignity
00:24:04.260 than the second
00:24:05.220 of executing them.
00:24:06.500 I just don't believe it.
00:24:07.380 And even in this country,
00:24:10.080 when you have someone
00:24:12.360 who has committed
00:24:13.420 the most heinous of crimes,
00:24:15.020 like take someone
00:24:16.120 who has raped
00:24:16.620 and killed a child,
00:24:18.500 well,
00:24:18.960 with someone like that,
00:24:20.560 you can't put them
00:24:21.580 in general population
00:24:22.560 because then,
00:24:23.400 in that case,
00:24:23.740 you might as well
00:24:24.320 execute them
00:24:24.940 because the prison population
00:24:26.280 will do it for you.
00:24:27.500 He's going to get beat
00:24:28.140 to death in the shower
00:24:28.880 or stabbed to death
00:24:29.620 in the cafeteria
00:24:31.900 or something.
00:24:33.300 So your only other option
00:24:34.400 is to keep them
00:24:35.160 in solitary confinement
00:24:36.580 for their whole lives
00:24:37.980 where they're going
00:24:39.020 to be locked
00:24:39.500 in a small,
00:24:40.700 perhaps windowless room
00:24:42.220 for 23 hours a day.
00:24:44.220 They'll get a few minutes
00:24:45.280 of sunlight a week
00:24:47.480 and they're going
00:24:48.300 to live like that.
00:24:48.960 If you have someone
00:24:49.420 who rapes and kills
00:24:50.040 a child at the age of 20
00:24:51.480 and lives, say,
00:24:52.860 to 85,
00:24:53.860 that's 65 years
00:24:56.240 in those conditions.
00:24:57.500 I am not convinced
00:24:59.920 that that is more
00:25:00.980 in keeping with
00:25:02.000 and more respecting
00:25:03.480 of his human dignity.
00:25:05.940 And I'm also definitely
00:25:07.500 not convinced
00:25:08.120 that that is more likely
00:25:09.640 to bring him to repentance
00:25:10.900 and thus to salvation.
00:25:13.800 Because when you throw somebody
00:25:15.060 in a room like that
00:25:16.840 and you just let them
00:25:17.700 whittle away forever,
00:25:19.620 I don't know
00:25:20.900 if that's going to have
00:25:21.860 the same effect
00:25:22.700 as telling them,
00:25:24.000 listen,
00:25:24.560 you're going to be executed
00:25:26.120 on this day.
00:25:27.620 So get yourself right
00:25:28.780 with the Lord.
00:25:30.160 Which one is more likely
00:25:31.320 to bring someone
00:25:31.860 to repentance?
00:25:32.600 If they're going to come
00:25:33.640 to repentance at all,
00:25:34.540 which one is more likely
00:25:35.360 to spark that within them?
00:25:39.340 Last thing very quickly,
00:25:40.500 I have heard a few verses
00:25:41.480 in the New Testament
00:25:42.660 trotted out
00:25:43.440 to try to defend
00:25:44.260 the abolition
00:25:44.760 of the death penalty.
00:25:46.400 And generally,
00:25:47.060 people will cite
00:25:47.860 three verses.
00:25:49.720 They'll say,
00:25:50.680 he who is without sin
00:25:52.120 cast the first stone,
00:25:53.840 turn the other cheek,
00:25:54.960 and live by the sword
00:25:56.060 die by the sword.
00:25:57.440 It is clear to me
00:25:58.460 that these teachings
00:26:00.280 cannot and do not
00:26:02.340 apply literally
00:26:03.380 and universally
00:26:04.260 to the government.
00:26:06.760 Because if they do,
00:26:08.360 that would mean
00:26:09.040 that all acts of war
00:26:10.860 and all acts
00:26:12.120 of punitive justice
00:26:12.960 are also ruled out.
00:26:15.360 Because it would,
00:26:16.380 by that logic,
00:26:17.240 remove the government's right
00:26:18.720 to use physical force
00:26:20.200 at all to any end,
00:26:21.980 in any context.
00:26:22.940 if we're supposed to,
00:26:25.720 I mean,
00:26:26.040 when the Allies
00:26:29.040 stormed the beaches,
00:26:31.080 they weren't turning
00:26:32.340 the other cheek.
00:26:34.780 They were,
00:26:35.700 let's say,
00:26:36.240 casting a stone,
00:26:37.540 even though they themselves
00:26:38.600 had sinned.
00:26:39.820 And when the government
00:26:40.900 locks a murderer
00:26:43.000 in prison,
00:26:44.700 when a judge
00:26:45.840 passes that sentence,
00:26:47.080 he's not turning
00:26:47.700 the other cheek,
00:26:48.380 and he is casting
00:26:49.660 a stone,
00:26:50.320 metaphorically.
00:26:50.840 Putting someone
00:26:53.700 in prison
00:26:54.100 is an act
00:26:54.840 of violence.
00:26:56.000 It is an act
00:26:57.180 of physical force
00:26:58.960 which the other party
00:27:02.040 does not consent to.
00:27:03.200 That is,
00:27:03.640 like,
00:27:04.000 the definition
00:27:04.640 of violence.
00:27:05.520 And not only that,
00:27:06.260 but more explicit
00:27:07.460 forms of violence
00:27:08.320 are necessary
00:27:09.360 in order to
00:27:10.600 maintain the prison
00:27:12.020 and defend it.
00:27:13.820 In that,
00:27:14.880 if somebody
00:27:15.240 tries to escape,
00:27:16.620 they are going
00:27:17.680 to be met
00:27:18.560 with physical force.
00:27:19.320 So if you're telling
00:27:21.120 me that physical,
00:27:22.760 if you are,
00:27:23.620 if we're saying
00:27:24.320 that capital punishment
00:27:24.940 is ruled out
00:27:25.700 because of what the,
00:27:26.400 because of what Jesus
00:27:27.260 has told us
00:27:27.960 about turning
00:27:28.320 the other cheek
00:27:28.800 and physical force,
00:27:30.100 and you're applying
00:27:31.080 that to the death penalty
00:27:31.920 and applying it
00:27:32.460 to the government,
00:27:33.040 then I do not see
00:27:34.240 how you can
00:27:36.220 apply it in that context,
00:27:37.800 but then not apply
00:27:38.680 it across the board
00:27:39.520 and thus
00:27:41.100 send society
00:27:44.540 into total anarchy.
00:27:45.760 But this is not
00:27:49.280 the traditional
00:27:49.840 Christian teaching,
00:27:50.720 nor is it what you
00:27:51.460 find in Scripture.
00:27:52.220 It has always
00:27:52.740 been understood,
00:27:53.920 and this is what
00:27:54.960 St. Paul says
00:27:55.680 very explicitly,
00:27:56.760 that governments
00:27:57.720 have authority
00:27:59.060 which individuals
00:28:00.560 do not.
00:28:02.520 Governments
00:28:03.000 have authority
00:28:03.760 from God
00:28:04.880 to do things
00:28:06.360 that you and I
00:28:07.380 cannot do.
00:28:08.980 So the government
00:28:10.000 can take taxes
00:28:12.040 from you.
00:28:13.240 You can't go up
00:28:14.180 to someone
00:28:14.500 and take a tax.
00:28:15.860 You can't just go up
00:28:16.560 to someone
00:28:16.780 and take money
00:28:17.300 out of the wealth.
00:28:18.040 The government
00:28:18.360 can do that.
00:28:20.100 You can't lock
00:28:21.140 somebody in a cage.
00:28:22.400 The government
00:28:22.720 can do that.
00:28:24.100 A lot of things
00:28:24.840 the government
00:28:25.080 can do
00:28:25.520 that you as an
00:28:26.400 individual
00:28:26.740 cannot do.
00:28:28.500 And it has
00:28:29.120 been understood
00:28:29.740 for 2,000 years
00:28:32.340 that execution
00:28:34.420 is one of those
00:28:35.360 things.
00:28:36.740 Now, this authority
00:28:37.700 that the government
00:28:38.120 has, it's not
00:28:38.880 absolute.
00:28:39.620 It can be lost.
00:28:40.860 It doesn't give
00:28:41.420 them carte blanche
00:28:42.100 to do whatever
00:28:42.580 they want.
00:28:43.020 Obviously, the
00:28:44.120 Nazi government
00:28:45.560 had completely
00:28:48.780 lost its divine
00:28:50.000 authority because
00:28:51.120 it was serving
00:28:51.760 the devil and
00:28:53.400 it had completely
00:28:54.160 rejected the
00:28:55.020 common good and
00:28:55.640 was working
00:28:56.120 against it and
00:28:56.760 was working
00:28:57.220 solely for
00:28:57.940 tyranny and evil
00:28:59.020 and so it
00:28:59.940 had to be
00:29:00.320 overthrown and
00:29:01.420 crushed violently.
00:29:02.880 And so that
00:29:03.240 can happen.
00:29:04.580 But in
00:29:05.380 principle, the
00:29:06.100 governments do
00:29:07.380 have this
00:29:08.440 authority and
00:29:10.000 they can exercise
00:29:10.600 it.
00:29:11.000 And so what
00:29:11.820 Jesus is saying
00:29:12.380 here, he
00:29:12.740 was without
00:29:13.440 sin, cast
00:29:13.920 the first
00:29:14.180 stone, turn
00:29:14.620 the other
00:29:14.800 cheek, live
00:29:15.420 by the sword,
00:29:15.780 die by the
00:29:16.100 sword.
00:29:16.720 He is speaking
00:29:17.380 to individuals.
00:29:19.360 He is not
00:29:20.260 telling governments
00:29:21.120 how to operate.
00:29:24.180 I don't see any
00:29:25.220 other way to
00:29:25.620 interpret that
00:29:26.180 without essentially
00:29:28.360 arguing against the
00:29:29.580 government itself
00:29:30.420 as an institution.
00:29:31.280 All right.
00:29:34.780 So that is a
00:29:38.060 defense of capital
00:29:38.840 punishment from
00:29:39.740 someone who is
00:29:40.780 lukewarm on
00:29:42.180 capital punishment.
00:29:42.920 There you go.
00:29:44.740 Thanks for
00:29:45.140 watching,
00:29:45.480 everybody.
00:29:45.740 Godspeed.
00:29:46.500 Jude.
00:29:47.420 Keep seated.
00:29:48.460 Keep présent.
00:29:49.040 Keep seated.
00:29:49.540 Keep seated.
00:29:50.260 Keep seated.
00:29:56.840 Keep seated.
00:30:05.500 Keep seated.