How True Crime Can Reveal God ｜ Matt Walsh & Andrew Klavan Discuss
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Summary
Andrew Klavan is a writer, comedian, and host of the HBO drama, The Sopranos. In this episode, we talk about the show, his relationship with God, and his new book, The Kingdom of Cain: Finding God in the Literature of Darkness.
Transcript
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One of the first things in my life that brought me to God when I was 19 years old was reading
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Crime and Punishment, which is a story about an axe murderer. I try to get at what it is that an
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artist does that makes this evil world beautiful. Is there beauty? Are there people producing truly
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beautiful works of art in this horrifically awful world? Andrew Klavan, the new book is
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The Kingdom of Cain, Finding God in the Literature of Darkness, which is available right now to go
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by on Amazon where I can buy books. Drew, I have to admit, I haven't read the book yet because you
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have not sent me a special signed copy. So what's up with that? I'm coming in this week. I'll bring
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you one. Okay. All right. I'll find somebody to sign it to. I can't because I can't I can't spend my
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own money on it. I don't know. Obviously, I wouldn't expect that. Yeah. Well, I do plan to
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read it because I'm legitimately very interested. And and looking just at the at the description,
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it says, you know, the book's all about finding joy and beauty and in in the in the world while
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still being, you know, realistic about about the evil found in it. And that that resonates with me
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because I do find I do struggle with that sometimes. And by sometimes, I mean, like pretty much all the
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time. So so how do we find I don't want to give any spoilers away, but how do we find joy and beauty in
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this horrifically awful world that we live in? Yeah, I think this is the thing. I think if you're
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an actual Christian, if you actually believe in the precepts of Christianity after a while,
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you've it just comes to you that the world sucks. I mean, I think that's actually in the gospel,
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the world sucks, and it will continue to suck. And everything you do nothing at no point in the
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gospel does Jesus ever say make the world a better place because he doesn't believe the world can be
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a better place. He says, give all your money to the poor, but the poor you'll always have with you.
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You're always going to have trouble in the world. I've overcome my kingdom is not of this world.
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So but but at the same time, we're told to rejoice, rejoice evermore. You know, I've told
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you these things so that the joy will be in you. So what I did was I studied famous murders, real
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real crimes that were in their time that were just huge. And and they all each one of them inspired
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work of art after work of art. They inspired novels. They were inspired poems. At one point,
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a murderer's hand was mummified and put in a museum. And famous poets wrote about the experience
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of seeing this, this murderer's hand. And since art is about finding beauty in life, I mean, art can be
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about terrible, terrible subjects like Macbeth is about murder and betrayal and, you know, killing
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people to get to the throne. And yet at the end of the play, you think this is a beautiful play.
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This play has given me something new and fresh and light. And so by exploring the works of art about
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these acts of evil, I try to get at what it is that an artist does that makes this evil world
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beautiful and makes it creative and makes it something that actually expands our sense of joy.
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Because this is my experience of Christianity. My experience of Christianity is my my vision of
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the world has gotten darker and darker, but I have become more serene. And that's that's a strange
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paradox. And I try to capture why it is that happens. And and what what are the what are the
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creative practices that we do in life that are like art? For instance, communion is very much like
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art. It's taking something solid and real and specific and finding God in it is finding God and
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bread and wine and very normal things. So that's a thing that people do that is actually a creative
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thing. Art itself is a creative thing in which we look at life. And we suddenly think like,
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God, you know, that that that thing that happened in that play in the Sopranos was incredibly ugly.
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And yet the Sopranos is a very beautiful experience. Watching the Sopranos is actually an uplifting
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experience because God is in the Sopranos. And so it's a question of like seeing God in the world as
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it is instead of as what we now call Christian art does prettying everything up. I mean, I don't know if
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you go to these Christian movies. I think if you're taking kids to the movies, they're fine.
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But if you're an adult and you go and see God's not dead, number five, this time he's really not
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dead. You know, you think like, this is awful. This has nothing to do with life. If that is your
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idea of Christianity, when you meet with real life, your faith will collapse. And so I've kind of
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explored the way in which reading books like Crime and Punishment by Dostoevsky, watching a movie like
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Psycho by Alfred Hitchcock actually is a much more clear and uplifting engagement with God
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than some kind of prettified version of life. Yeah, that really is. I mean, that's always been
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my, I think that's a lot of people's complaint about so-called Christian entertainment. And maybe
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it's, I don't, to be honest, I don't follow it closely enough. Maybe it's gotten a little better.
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I think it has gotten a little better. And not to pick on God's not dead, but that is, it's one of
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the few of those types of films that I did watch. And I remember it's been a while, but one of the
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things that really bothered me about it, I mean, aside from not all the performance, some of the
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performances are fine. But from my memory of it, it's like this, this atheist college professor,
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I guess, who, who's an atheist. And then someone presents, I guess, one of the students or something
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presents the arguments to him and he's like persuaded by it. And then, and then by the end
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of it, he's, he, I guess, comes to God. It just felt, I think dealing with someone, dealing with a,
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you know, a Christian film that deals with someone who doesn't have faith or loses faith,
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that there's a lot of value in that, but it felt too, yeah, it felt too neat. It felt too clean.
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It didn't feel like this is what, this is what actually happens in life.
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Yeah, that's the, I mean, it's just like women watching romantic comedies, nothing wrong with
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sitting back and enjoying a romantic comedy. But if that's what you think love is going to be like,
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you're going to be sorely disappointed and nobody is going to live up to that experience.
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It's just not the way the world works in God is not dead. And I hate to pick on these films
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because I think they serve a purpose. I think they've collected the audience that attracts
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talent and that's why they're getting better. But at the same time, at the end of that film,
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the guy is converted and gets hit by a car and he dies and everybody goes, well, hallelujah,
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at least he converted before he got hit by a car. And my thought is, could we call his wife first?
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You know, could we, could we at least be sad that the guy got hit by a car? Could we at least
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engage in real life? One of the things that brought me to God,
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one of the first things in my life that brought me to God when I was 19 years old was reading
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Crime and Punishment, which is a story about an ax murderer who kills two women for no reason,
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just because he thinks it can be done. And I remember reading that scene and I was living
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in a world and I was in university. I was at a place where they were teaching us that morality
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was relative. And I remember reading that scene and thinking there is no planet in which this is
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good. There's no planet. You can be in a planet where everyone's an ax murderer. Everyone thinks this is
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good. It's still not good. You simply cannot make that argument. That changed my life. I mean,
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that changed the actual trajectory of my life and turned it toward God. Now, if I walked into a
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Christian bookstore and I said, have you got that book about the ax murderer who gets rescued by a
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prostitute? You know, they'd kick you out into the street. And so that I'm, what I'm trying to make
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the argument about is God is the God of this world. And so if you read art that is honest about this
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world, even if it's about nightmares, you're going to find God in that work, even if the artist
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himself is not a believer. And so in exploring books like, exploring stories like Psycho, Silence
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of the Lambs, books that, you know, like Rope is another Alfred Hitchcock picture and Crime and
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Punishment specifically, and some of Nietzsche's philosophy, what you find is that, you know, look,
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society, there's no question, has been on a trajectory of unbelief. It's been moving more and more
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in the direction of unbelief. And in that experience, artists who write beautifully about
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the world as it is, have been telling us what the results of that are. You know, one of the murders
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I study is the murder by a guy named Ed Gein. Do you know this murder, the story? I mean, this is
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1950s, Wisconsin, the middle of nowhere. And 1950s were kind of looked on as the sort of heyday of
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American life. He was killing women and digging up some dead women and dressing in their, in their
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bodies, dressing up in their bodies so he could turn himself into a woman. That was the inspiration
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for first the novel Psycho and then the film Psycho. And it's also the inspiration if you've
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seen Silence of the Lambs. And all of those films that are inspired by those things like the slasher
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movies all speak into that moment. They speak into that version of sexuality where our sexuality is
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just a body outline. So if I change my body outline, if I change the way I look, I've changed
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in fact my soul. And that's an absurdity, but it actually makes sense if there's no God. It makes
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perfect sense if all we are is meat. And so I explore in the way these movies not only look at
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men trying to become women, which is in both Psycho and in Silence of the Lambs, but also the roles
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of psychiatrists, which hilariously change over time. In Psycho, which is early on in their, the
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first introduction of psychiatry to the mass audience, the psychiatrist is the expert. He
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comes on at the end of the movie and he explains the whole thing. This is what happened in his mind.
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He was mother, you know, he had a problem with his mother, blah, blah, blah. By the time we get to
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the movie Halloween, which is kind of based on Psycho, you have a psychiatrist come on and said,
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I treated this killer. I can't do anything with him. He's evil. It's evil. I have no weapon against
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evil. So the role of the psychiatrist started to change. By the time you get to Silence of the
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Lamb, the psychiatrist is the source of the evil. The psychiatrist is Hannibal Lecter. And what makes
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him evil is that he treats people like meat. He eats them, you know? So he's a complete materialist
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and the psychiatric ideal that came out of Freudian materialism has been completely turned around.
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The artist sort of caught on to the fact that even though therapy itself may not be a bad thing and
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talking to somebody is not a bad thing, the philosophy that went into psychiatry that was
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going to replace the priest and the confessional and solve your sins and absolve you of your sins
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was false. And that, that idea is the one that seeped into society and was really kind of defined
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what our society looks like today. And so artists writing about murder is not the same thing as
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murder. Artists writing about murder is an act of creation and creation in my mind is always
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the telos of love. I mean, the reason you have love is because love is creative.
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You wrote a book a couple of years ago, The Truth and the Beauty. And then this book deals with
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finding beauty in a broken world, finding it in art that deals, the art itself deals with murder and
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really dark things. So this is obviously a theme that you revolve around quite a bit. And so I want
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to talk about beauty a little bit because you don't hear beauty defended very often. In fact, there seems
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to be, as I know you've noticed, and are dealing with in a lot of these books, this kind of campaign
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to destroy beauty, to uglify things, you know, ugly art, ugly, ugly buildings. You know, they make
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buildings that are, even the churches that used to be beautiful, they take steps to make them less
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beautiful. Ugly people, there's a lot of very ugly people that seem to be going out of their way to
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make themselves ugly with, you know, mutilating themselves with piercings all over the place and
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tattoos on their face and all these kinds of things. Why is that?
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I think it's a great question. And I think the reason is that beauty and truth are very deeply
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connected. As Keith said, beauty is truth, truth, beauty. And what he meant by that is not necessarily
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that there aren't two things that are beauty and truth. What he meant is that true beauty, not just
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prettiness, is something that connects you to God. It connects you to the meaning of the world. And when
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you look at something that is truly beautiful, and I'm not talking, like I said, I'm not talking about
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something that's cute or pretty, like daisies, anything like that. I'm talking about that thing
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that really reaches into your soul and grabs you. The reason it grabs you is because you're seeing
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an order in things. You're seeing a kind of creativity and a creative mind in things that
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connects you to it, that you are not separate than it. You are actually part of that creation.
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And I think that that is the experience of beauty. The Kingdom of Cain ends with, if I may say so,
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I think it's one of the best 30 pages I ever wrote. It's a walk through a museum
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to look at famous paintings. And what happens is we get further and further away from God.
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And it ends with returning to the Pieta, Michelangelo's statue of Mary holding the dead
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body of Christ. And my question about this is, if you take this moment, which is the saddest moment
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in human history, it's not just the saddest thing that can happen to anybody, the death of a child.
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I think that's worse than self-death. I think that there's no greater sadness than that. But it's
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also the death of God. And if you look at this beautiful statue of this tragedy, the question
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that immediately comes to my mind is if a man can take that tragedy and turn it into something
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beautiful, what is God making of this world, this world that we're living in now? And I think that
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that, I think the reason that beauty has been rejected is because it is the answer to the question,
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if there's a good God, how can there be so much evil in the world? It's the, and the answer is
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simply, even though we have to accept it on faith, the answer is simply, we're living in a design that
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is beautiful, even though that beauty includes the ugliness and the evil that we have chosen to do
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and the evil of a broken world. I think that to stifle beauty is to stifle God. I think to stifle
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beauty is to stifle the heart of man. And I think to stifle God is to stifle the heart of man.
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And I think that that has been an absolute result of a lot, the slow loss of faith. I think that it
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is not just, it's not just that people have lost their connection to God, but they're determined to
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take it away from you and me as well. And I think the only way you can do that is to destroy beauty
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because the minute you see it, the minute you see beauty, you think like, wait a minute, just a
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minute, something is, something is, there was something more here than meets the eye. And especially when
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you come upon the, you know, one of the things I write about in the book is, is coming upon the
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beauty of clouds from the position of an airplane. And they think like, this was here before we could
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fly up and see it. You know, it was here waiting to become beauty. It wasn't beauty until we could
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see it and find that connection that we find in the beautiful. And when you see that, you think like,
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gee, maybe, you know, we matter, we matter because we bring this creative spark to life by perceiving life.
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But, but, but maybe we're not the end of the, of the value chain. Maybe there's some value to us
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beyond even what we think, even our desires. I think that this is a real thing, Matt. I think the,
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the attempt to squelch God, to silence God is a genuine movement. I have been, I've been in meetings
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in Hollywood where somebody will point out that faith-based movies make a ton of money and people
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will say, yeah, but we don't do that. We're not going to do that. And you think like, I thought
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you were all about money. Yeah. But, but not that we're not so about money that we'd actually talk
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about God. That's going too far. We don't want to go that far. And, and this is, it's, it's really
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true. I mean, when you go to university and you want to read about literature, almost all literature
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at some level is about spiritual, the spiritual, it's about evil. It's about God. It's about who we are,
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what we're doing. You can't find that class in most Ivy league, uh, universities anymore because
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they're determined to bleed it out of the culture. And I think it's a real movement. I think it
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actually, of course, like all these movements, they think they're doing something good and just
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and beautiful, but I think it is an actual attempt to silence the voice of God and make sure that you
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don't find him. In the book you talk about, you've already mentioned Dostoevsky, Hitchcock, you just
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mentioned the Pieta, which, which I think is for my money, the most beautiful, most beautiful and
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impressive work of art perhaps ever, ever produced by mankind. Uh, and so when I, when I think in
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particular about, about that, uh, sculpture, it's, there's a certain kind of like sadness that comes
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with it because I think it's just, it's just, there's no one capable of producing that now in
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the entire, I don't know if there's anyone in the entire world that could, could do anything close
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to that. Is there anyone, well then, you know, maybe that just form of art has, has, has died off
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even in the, uh, in the particular modern mediums, film and television. Uh, do you, are there, is there
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beauty? Are there people producing truly beautiful works of art even, even in the modern day in those
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mediums? I think we're in this kind of amazing moment, the last five years where art flatlined and
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that doesn't mean that we're no good works that, you know, there are always good artists around.
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They're always going to be individual good works, but I think that the arts in America and possibly in
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the West flatlined because we had squeezed every human thing and every godly thing out of them
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that can't last. I don't think that that can go on forever. And I think I can feel it starting to
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change right now. If, if you go back to the last upsurge of really good work, it was a lot of it was
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on television around 2000. There were some really good shows on television that were kind of exciting,
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kind of a reinvention of, of the long form storytelling. They were all about bad men. They were all about
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the Sopranos, the Shield, Breaking Bad, all about rogue men. And I think the reason for that is
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because when you outlaw masculinity, only outlaws can be masculine. And I think that we have reached
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the point through feminism. I mean, it's a whole other subject of why we want to extinguish women,
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but I think we want to extinguish women because of what they represent and what they stand for,
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what motherhood stands for, what tenderness stands for, what generosity stands for. But because we
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have tried to eliminate women, men have no role. And so we're trying to reinvent good men in art
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and good men in life without giving up feminism. And I don't think that can be done. I think feminism
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needs to go right out the window. I think it's a wholly destructive force. It's not that some of
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the problems that feminism was called upon to solve didn't exist. Some of those problems did exist,
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but I think feminism is a destructive force. And I think the, this attack on the existence of women,
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the idea that you and I could put on a skirt tomorrow and declare ourselves women and women,
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you know, women would just have to accept that. That's, that's an amazing thing. You know, that,
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that movie Barbie was a huge hit. And in the middle of Barbie, somebody says, well, men hate women and
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women hate women. It's one thing we all agree on. Nobody even noticed the line. Nobody even talked
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about it. I mean, I did, I talked about it, but I didn't read any articles about it. It was just like,
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oh yeah, that's true. And I thought if we live in a society where men and women hate women,
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we're living in a sick society, which is actually what I believe we're in. I think we're in a moment
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of, of real mental illness, of cultural mental illness. I, I don't think it can last, or at least
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the culture that does it can last. So it's a question of whether we're going to rediscover
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the underlying truth of existence or we're not, you know, and we're going to disappear. But I think
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it's a real thing. You know, I think what you say, when you say that the, the attempt to
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extinguish beauty, it's a real thing. Um, yeah, real effort. Yeah. I, uh, yeah, I couldn't,
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I couldn't agree more. I, before I let you go, I did have, and this is a little bit out of left
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field, sort of related, but not really. But since I have you, I do have a, I have a quick bone to
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pick with you that I, that I'm just going to throw at you right now because a couple of, uh,
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we're talking about films. So it is a little bit related. A few days ago, you put out a video on
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your YouTube channel where you're ranking Westerns. Yes. And I watched the whole, the whole video
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and I, I agreed with many of your rankings. However, you, the, the movie open range,
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you didn't even, it was not in your rankings at all. It was unranked. And that's in my mind that
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that's the, that's probably my favorite Western of all time. So I'm just waiting. What does he think
00:20:51.180
of open range? We'll get the S tier and you didn't even mention it. So what, what's up with that?
00:20:55.320
I want to plead innocence here that on the, when they put out the caption on that video,
00:21:00.560
it said Clavin's list of great Westerns or something like that. It was not, I was given
00:21:05.340
the Westerns and had to judge them ad lib as they were coming over. I didn't make the list. The list
00:21:10.400
was culled from, uh, in the internet. And so they just were pouring them at me and I stopped midway
00:21:18.060
because it was just going for too long. So I didn't leave out open range. I didn't leave out,
00:21:22.580
you know, the, uh, the searchers or anything like that. I mean, it was just, those were the ones I
00:21:26.680
was given to talk about. And I liked open range, but I, I'm, I'm surprised that you liked it that
00:21:31.320
much. I thought it was, I thought it was a really good Western. I really liked it and I'd probably
00:21:35.720
give it an A, but I don't think it was one of the great Westerns of all time. Was it?
00:21:39.320
You know what I, what I liked about it so much is, uh, well, for one thing, it, it, it, it reminded me,
00:21:44.580
it reminds me a lot of Lonesome Dove, which, which is my, one of my favorite things that's ever,
00:21:49.120
you know, favorite movie or, yeah. So it reminds me a lot of that, but also it had, you know,
00:21:54.880
I'm, what, what I love about Westerns, I think everyone loves about Westerns is, uh, is, you
00:22:00.480
know, sometimes you have Westerns that, that will play with the formula a little bit, but I like the
00:22:04.880
formula, which is, and it always, it has to end with a shootout. And I agree with you because you
00:22:09.700
talked about, you talked about Tombstone and how you didn't, you kind of like, it feels like it trails
00:22:13.340
off at the end. I felt the same way. I watched it actually recently for the first time. I'd never seen it
00:22:16.740
and, you know, doing the big shootout and then it goes on for 45 minutes. It doesn't know you got
00:22:22.060
the shootout is at the end and open range. And I think has maybe the greatest shootout
00:22:28.460
maybe in film history, but at least in Western film history. Yeah, no, it's great. Great shootout.
00:22:34.740
The scene where they bury the dog is great. The girl is great. I mean, it's, it's got a lot. And
00:22:38.920
Kevin Costner is always worth watching. I mean, it's like he does, he's one of the few people who
00:22:43.460
still does movies like that and did them for quite some time. And so, but I didn't leave it. I just
00:22:48.960
want to say, I didn't leave it out. I was getting hit with this on X, you know, people saying, why
00:22:52.820
did you leave out this and why did you leave out that? I didn't leave out or put in anything. I
00:22:56.200
was given the list and then had to comment on it. That was the thing. That was the way the system
00:23:00.100
worked. So I plead innocent to this and I, I, you know, I will do penance if I have to, but I think
00:23:05.880
that that's, it's only fair to say that I think we should fire the people who did it and bring and
00:23:10.880
name them publicly and possibly chase them through the street, hurling, you know, rotten vegetables
00:23:15.620
out. Yeah. Well, you can tell me off there, you can tell me the name of the person off there and
00:23:18.860
I'll go find them and yell at them. Okay. I'll, I'll write you. Yeah. Okay. Well, uh,
00:23:23.180
Andrew Clever, the book, The Kingdom of Cain, Finding God in the Literature of Darkness, which is
00:23:27.800
available right now and you should go pick it up. Uh, thanks a lot. Appreciate it. Great to see you.