The Matt Walsh Show - How True Crime Can Reveal God ｜ Matt Walsh & Andrew Klavan Discuss

00:00:00.000 One of the first things in my life that brought me to God when I was 19 years old was reading

00:00:04.100 Crime and Punishment, which is a story about an axe murderer. I try to get at what it is that an

00:00:08.460 artist does that makes this evil world beautiful. Is there beauty? Are there people producing truly

00:00:14.840 beautiful works of art in this horrifically awful world? Andrew Klavan, the new book is

00:00:20.520 The Kingdom of Cain, Finding God in the Literature of Darkness, which is available right now to go

00:00:26.560 by on Amazon where I can buy books. Drew, I have to admit, I haven't read the book yet because you

00:00:31.000 have not sent me a special signed copy. So what's up with that? I'm coming in this week. I'll bring

00:00:36.440 you one. Okay. All right. I'll find somebody to sign it to. I can't because I can't I can't spend my

00:00:41.360 own money on it. I don't know. Obviously, I wouldn't expect that. Yeah. Well, I do plan to

00:00:47.080 read it because I'm legitimately very interested. And and looking just at the at the description,

00:00:52.100 it says, you know, the book's all about finding joy and beauty and in in the in the world while

00:00:57.360 still being, you know, realistic about about the evil found in it. And that that resonates with me

00:01:04.920 because I do find I do struggle with that sometimes. And by sometimes, I mean, like pretty much all the

00:01:09.440 time. So so how do we find I don't want to give any spoilers away, but how do we find joy and beauty in

00:01:16.900 this horrifically awful world that we live in? Yeah, I think this is the thing. I think if you're

00:01:22.140 an actual Christian, if you actually believe in the precepts of Christianity after a while, 0.99

00:01:27.780 you've it just comes to you that the world sucks. I mean, I think that's actually in the gospel,

00:01:32.320 the world sucks, and it will continue to suck. And everything you do nothing at no point in the 0.98

00:01:36.720 gospel does Jesus ever say make the world a better place because he doesn't believe the world can be

00:01:40.780 a better place. He says, give all your money to the poor, but the poor you'll always have with you.

00:01:44.500 You're always going to have trouble in the world. I've overcome my kingdom is not of this world.

00:01:48.540 So but but at the same time, we're told to rejoice, rejoice evermore. You know, I've told

00:01:53.460 you these things so that the joy will be in you. So what I did was I studied famous murders, real

00:01:58.620 real crimes that were in their time that were just huge. And and they all each one of them inspired

00:02:05.100 work of art after work of art. They inspired novels. They were inspired poems. At one point,

00:02:10.400 a murderer's hand was mummified and put in a museum. And famous poets wrote about the experience

00:02:15.780 of seeing this, this murderer's hand. And since art is about finding beauty in life, I mean, art can be

00:02:23.600 about terrible, terrible subjects like Macbeth is about murder and betrayal and, you know, killing

00:02:29.180 people to get to the throne. And yet at the end of the play, you think this is a beautiful play.

00:02:33.160 This play has given me something new and fresh and light. And so by exploring the works of art about

00:02:37.720 these acts of evil, I try to get at what it is that an artist does that makes this evil world

00:02:45.240 beautiful and makes it creative and makes it something that actually expands our sense of joy.

00:02:50.720 Because this is my experience of Christianity. My experience of Christianity is my my vision of

00:02:55.460 the world has gotten darker and darker, but I have become more serene. And that's that's a strange

00:03:01.500 paradox. And I try to capture why it is that happens. And and what what are the what are the

00:03:08.400 creative practices that we do in life that are like art? For instance, communion is very much like

00:03:13.940 art. It's taking something solid and real and specific and finding God in it is finding God and

00:03:21.220 bread and wine and very normal things. So that's a thing that people do that is actually a creative

00:03:26.860 thing. Art itself is a creative thing in which we look at life. And we suddenly think like,

00:03:31.980 God, you know, that that that thing that happened in that play in the Sopranos was incredibly ugly.

00:03:37.760 And yet the Sopranos is a very beautiful experience. Watching the Sopranos is actually an uplifting

00:03:41.640 experience because God is in the Sopranos. And so it's a question of like seeing God in the world as

00:03:47.380 it is instead of as what we now call Christian art does prettying everything up. I mean, I don't know if

00:03:54.580 you go to these Christian movies. I think if you're taking kids to the movies, they're fine.

00:03:58.120 But if you're an adult and you go and see God's not dead, number five, this time he's really not

00:04:02.280 dead. You know, you think like, this is awful. This has nothing to do with life. If that is your

00:04:07.760 idea of Christianity, when you meet with real life, your faith will collapse. And so I've kind of

00:04:13.200 explored the way in which reading books like Crime and Punishment by Dostoevsky, watching a movie like

00:04:18.260 Psycho by Alfred Hitchcock actually is a much more clear and uplifting engagement with God

00:04:24.500 than some kind of prettified version of life. Yeah, that really is. I mean, that's always been

00:04:29.500 my, I think that's a lot of people's complaint about so-called Christian entertainment. And maybe

00:04:33.860 it's, I don't, to be honest, I don't follow it closely enough. Maybe it's gotten a little better.

00:04:38.240 I think it has gotten a little better. And not to pick on God's not dead, but that is, it's one of

00:04:42.280 the few of those types of films that I did watch. And I remember it's been a while, but one of the

00:04:47.140 things that really bothered me about it, I mean, aside from not all the performance, some of the

00:04:51.100 performances are fine. But from my memory of it, it's like this, this atheist college professor,

00:04:59.260 I guess, who, who's an atheist. And then someone presents, I guess, one of the students or something

00:05:05.040 presents the arguments to him and he's like persuaded by it. And then, and then by the end

00:05:10.320 of it, he's, he, I guess, comes to God. It just felt, I think dealing with someone, dealing with a,

00:05:16.560 you know, a Christian film that deals with someone who doesn't have faith or loses faith,

00:05:22.560 that there's a lot of value in that, but it felt too, yeah, it felt too neat. It felt too clean.

00:05:28.600 It didn't feel like this is what, this is what actually happens in life.

00:05:32.380 Yeah, that's the, I mean, it's just like women watching romantic comedies, nothing wrong with 0.91

00:05:36.700 sitting back and enjoying a romantic comedy. But if that's what you think love is going to be like,

00:05:41.480 you're going to be sorely disappointed and nobody is going to live up to that experience.

00:05:45.720 It's just not the way the world works in God is not dead. And I hate to pick on these films

00:05:49.720 because I think they serve a purpose. I think they've collected the audience that attracts

00:05:53.360 talent and that's why they're getting better. But at the same time, at the end of that film,

00:05:57.460 the guy is converted and gets hit by a car and he dies and everybody goes, well, hallelujah, 1.00

00:06:02.180 at least he converted before he got hit by a car. And my thought is, could we call his wife first?

00:06:07.640 You know, could we, could we at least be sad that the guy got hit by a car? Could we at least

00:06:11.920 engage in real life? One of the things that brought me to God,

00:06:15.080 one of the first things in my life that brought me to God when I was 19 years old was reading

00:06:19.080 Crime and Punishment, which is a story about an ax murderer who kills two women for no reason,

00:06:24.220 just because he thinks it can be done. And I remember reading that scene and I was living

00:06:29.440 in a world and I was in university. I was at a place where they were teaching us that morality

00:06:33.660 was relative. And I remember reading that scene and thinking there is no planet in which this is

00:06:38.740 good. There's no planet. You can be in a planet where everyone's an ax murderer. Everyone thinks this is

00:06:43.160 good. It's still not good. You simply cannot make that argument. That changed my life. I mean,

00:06:47.740 that changed the actual trajectory of my life and turned it toward God. Now, if I walked into a

00:06:52.760 Christian bookstore and I said, have you got that book about the ax murderer who gets rescued by a

00:06:58.540 prostitute? You know, they'd kick you out into the street. And so that I'm, what I'm trying to make 0.97

00:07:02.940 the argument about is God is the God of this world. And so if you read art that is honest about this

00:07:07.760 world, even if it's about nightmares, you're going to find God in that work, even if the artist

00:07:12.860 himself is not a believer. And so in exploring books like, exploring stories like Psycho, Silence

00:07:19.280 of the Lambs, books that, you know, like Rope is another Alfred Hitchcock picture and Crime and

00:07:25.340 Punishment specifically, and some of Nietzsche's philosophy, what you find is that, you know, look,

00:07:30.060 society, there's no question, has been on a trajectory of unbelief. It's been moving more and more

00:07:34.580 in the direction of unbelief. And in that experience, artists who write beautifully about

00:07:40.880 the world as it is, have been telling us what the results of that are. You know, one of the murders

00:07:46.120 I study is the murder by a guy named Ed Gein. Do you know this murder, the story? I mean, this is

00:07:50.880 1950s, Wisconsin, the middle of nowhere. And 1950s were kind of looked on as the sort of heyday of

00:07:58.400 American life. He was killing women and digging up some dead women and dressing in their, in their 0.85

00:08:06.460 bodies, dressing up in their bodies so he could turn himself into a woman. That was the inspiration 1.00

00:08:11.040 for first the novel Psycho and then the film Psycho. And it's also the inspiration if you've

00:08:15.380 seen Silence of the Lambs. And all of those films that are inspired by those things like the slasher

00:08:20.700 movies all speak into that moment. They speak into that version of sexuality where our sexuality is

00:08:26.840 just a body outline. So if I change my body outline, if I change the way I look, I've changed

00:08:32.380 in fact my soul. And that's an absurdity, but it actually makes sense if there's no God. It makes

00:08:37.960 perfect sense if all we are is meat. And so I explore in the way these movies not only look at

00:08:44.240 men trying to become women, which is in both Psycho and in Silence of the Lambs, but also the roles

00:08:51.120 of psychiatrists, which hilariously change over time. In Psycho, which is early on in their, the

00:08:57.940 first introduction of psychiatry to the mass audience, the psychiatrist is the expert. He

00:09:03.060 comes on at the end of the movie and he explains the whole thing. This is what happened in his mind.

00:09:07.160 He was mother, you know, he had a problem with his mother, blah, blah, blah. By the time we get to

00:09:11.300 the movie Halloween, which is kind of based on Psycho, you have a psychiatrist come on and said,

00:09:15.460 I treated this killer. I can't do anything with him. He's evil. It's evil. I have no weapon against

00:09:20.680 evil. So the role of the psychiatrist started to change. By the time you get to Silence of the

00:09:25.380 Lamb, the psychiatrist is the source of the evil. The psychiatrist is Hannibal Lecter. And what makes

00:09:30.580 him evil is that he treats people like meat. He eats them, you know? So he's a complete materialist

00:09:35.720 and the psychiatric ideal that came out of Freudian materialism has been completely turned around.

00:09:41.660 The artist sort of caught on to the fact that even though therapy itself may not be a bad thing and

00:09:46.520 talking to somebody is not a bad thing, the philosophy that went into psychiatry that was

00:09:51.320 going to replace the priest and the confessional and solve your sins and absolve you of your sins

00:09:56.400 was false. And that, that idea is the one that seeped into society and was really kind of defined

00:10:02.180 what our society looks like today. And so artists writing about murder is not the same thing as

00:10:07.520 murder. Artists writing about murder is an act of creation and creation in my mind is always

00:10:12.380 the telos of love. I mean, the reason you have love is because love is creative.

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00:11:27.680 You wrote a book a couple of years ago, The Truth and the Beauty. And then this book deals with

00:11:34.220 finding beauty in a broken world, finding it in art that deals, the art itself deals with murder and

00:11:41.860 really dark things. So this is obviously a theme that you revolve around quite a bit. And so I want

00:11:49.460 to talk about beauty a little bit because you don't hear beauty defended very often. In fact, there seems

00:11:55.000 to be, as I know you've noticed, and are dealing with in a lot of these books, this kind of campaign

00:12:00.100 to destroy beauty, to uglify things, you know, ugly art, ugly, ugly buildings. You know, they make

00:12:07.560 buildings that are, even the churches that used to be beautiful, they take steps to make them less

00:12:11.980 beautiful. Ugly people, there's a lot of very ugly people that seem to be going out of their way to 0.93

00:12:16.700 make themselves ugly with, you know, mutilating themselves with piercings all over the place and 0.98

00:12:22.060 tattoos on their face and all these kinds of things. Why is that? 0.91

00:12:27.300 I think it's a great question. And I think the reason is that beauty and truth are very deeply

00:12:31.560 connected. As Keith said, beauty is truth, truth, beauty. And what he meant by that is not necessarily

00:12:36.820 that there aren't two things that are beauty and truth. What he meant is that true beauty, not just

00:12:40.640 prettiness, is something that connects you to God. It connects you to the meaning of the world. And when

00:12:45.480 you look at something that is truly beautiful, and I'm not talking, like I said, I'm not talking about

00:12:49.140 something that's cute or pretty, like daisies, anything like that. I'm talking about that thing

00:12:53.040 that really reaches into your soul and grabs you. The reason it grabs you is because you're seeing

00:12:57.680 an order in things. You're seeing a kind of creativity and a creative mind in things that

00:13:02.660 connects you to it, that you are not separate than it. You are actually part of that creation.

00:13:08.320 And I think that that is the experience of beauty. The Kingdom of Cain ends with, if I may say so,

00:13:13.960 I think it's one of the best 30 pages I ever wrote. It's a walk through a museum

00:13:17.800 to look at famous paintings. And what happens is we get further and further away from God.

00:13:22.580 And it ends with returning to the Pieta, Michelangelo's statue of Mary holding the dead

00:13:28.460 body of Christ. And my question about this is, if you take this moment, which is the saddest moment

00:13:35.620 in human history, it's not just the saddest thing that can happen to anybody, the death of a child.

00:13:39.520 I think that's worse than self-death. I think that there's no greater sadness than that. But it's

00:13:44.900 also the death of God. And if you look at this beautiful statue of this tragedy, the question

00:13:51.900 that immediately comes to my mind is if a man can take that tragedy and turn it into something

00:13:57.360 beautiful, what is God making of this world, this world that we're living in now? And I think that

00:14:02.660 that, I think the reason that beauty has been rejected is because it is the answer to the question,

00:14:08.860 if there's a good God, how can there be so much evil in the world? It's the, and the answer is

00:14:14.760 simply, even though we have to accept it on faith, the answer is simply, we're living in a design that

00:14:18.460 is beautiful, even though that beauty includes the ugliness and the evil that we have chosen to do

00:14:24.500 and the evil of a broken world. I think that to stifle beauty is to stifle God. I think to stifle

00:14:29.840 beauty is to stifle the heart of man. And I think to stifle God is to stifle the heart of man.

00:14:33.900 And I think that that has been an absolute result of a lot, the slow loss of faith. I think that it

00:14:40.240 is not just, it's not just that people have lost their connection to God, but they're determined to

00:14:45.620 take it away from you and me as well. And I think the only way you can do that is to destroy beauty

00:14:51.060 because the minute you see it, the minute you see beauty, you think like, wait a minute, just a

00:14:56.220 minute, something is, something is, there was something more here than meets the eye. And especially when

00:15:02.020 you come upon the, you know, one of the things I write about in the book is, is coming upon the

00:15:06.380 beauty of clouds from the position of an airplane. And they think like, this was here before we could

00:15:11.560 fly up and see it. You know, it was here waiting to become beauty. It wasn't beauty until we could

00:15:16.720 see it and find that connection that we find in the beautiful. And when you see that, you think like,

00:15:21.260 gee, maybe, you know, we matter, we matter because we bring this creative spark to life by perceiving life.

00:15:27.500 But, but, but maybe we're not the end of the, of the value chain. Maybe there's some value to us

00:15:33.540 beyond even what we think, even our desires. I think that this is a real thing, Matt. I think the,

00:15:40.000 the attempt to squelch God, to silence God is a genuine movement. I have been, I've been in meetings

00:15:47.080 in Hollywood where somebody will point out that faith-based movies make a ton of money and people

00:15:54.680 will say, yeah, but we don't do that. We're not going to do that. And you think like, I thought

00:15:59.640 you were all about money. Yeah. But, but not that we're not so about money that we'd actually talk

00:16:03.640 about God. That's going too far. We don't want to go that far. And, and this is, it's, it's really

00:16:08.020 true. I mean, when you go to university and you want to read about literature, almost all literature

00:16:12.920 at some level is about spiritual, the spiritual, it's about evil. It's about God. It's about who we are,

00:16:17.600 what we're doing. You can't find that class in most Ivy league, uh, universities anymore because

00:16:24.320 they're determined to bleed it out of the culture. And I think it's a real movement. I think it

00:16:28.840 actually, of course, like all these movements, they think they're doing something good and just

00:16:32.700 and beautiful, but I think it is an actual attempt to silence the voice of God and make sure that you

00:16:38.300 don't find him. In the book you talk about, you've already mentioned Dostoevsky, Hitchcock, you just

00:16:41.720 mentioned the Pieta, which, which I think is for my money, the most beautiful, most beautiful and

00:16:48.700 impressive work of art perhaps ever, ever produced by mankind. Uh, and so when I, when I think in

00:16:57.020 particular about, about that, uh, sculpture, it's, there's a certain kind of like sadness that comes

00:17:01.680 with it because I think it's just, it's just, there's no one capable of producing that now in

00:17:07.040 the entire, I don't know if there's anyone in the entire world that could, could do anything close

00:17:11.080 to that. Is there anyone, well then, you know, maybe that just form of art has, has, has died off

00:17:16.740 even in the, uh, in the particular modern mediums, film and television. Uh, do you, are there, is there

00:17:25.820 beauty? Are there people producing truly beautiful works of art even, even in the modern day in those

00:17:30.960 mediums? I think we're in this kind of amazing moment, the last five years where art flatlined and

00:17:37.840 that doesn't mean that we're no good works that, you know, there are always good artists around.

00:17:41.160 They're always going to be individual good works, but I think that the arts in America and possibly in

00:17:45.700 the West flatlined because we had squeezed every human thing and every godly thing out of them

00:17:51.880 that can't last. I don't think that that can go on forever. And I think I can feel it starting to

00:17:57.340 change right now. If, if you go back to the last upsurge of really good work, it was a lot of it was

00:18:03.260 on television around 2000. There were some really good shows on television that were kind of exciting,

00:18:09.060 kind of a reinvention of, of the long form storytelling. They were all about bad men. They were all about

00:18:14.500 the Sopranos, the Shield, Breaking Bad, all about rogue men. And I think the reason for that is

00:18:20.140 because when you outlaw masculinity, only outlaws can be masculine. And I think that we have reached

00:18:25.960 the point through feminism. I mean, it's a whole other subject of why we want to extinguish women, 1.00

00:18:31.500 but I think we want to extinguish women because of what they represent and what they stand for, 1.00

00:18:35.260 what motherhood stands for, what tenderness stands for, what generosity stands for. But because we

00:18:40.640 have tried to eliminate women, men have no role. And so we're trying to reinvent good men in art

00:18:46.840 and good men in life without giving up feminism. And I don't think that can be done. I think feminism 0.82

00:18:52.480 needs to go right out the window. I think it's a wholly destructive force. It's not that some of

00:18:57.140 the problems that feminism was called upon to solve didn't exist. Some of those problems did exist, 1.00

00:19:01.960 but I think feminism is a destructive force. And I think the, this attack on the existence of women, 1.00

00:19:07.960 the idea that you and I could put on a skirt tomorrow and declare ourselves women and women,

00:19:13.260 you know, women would just have to accept that. That's, that's an amazing thing. You know, that, 0.59

00:19:17.260 that movie Barbie was a huge hit. And in the middle of Barbie, somebody says, well, men hate women and

00:19:24.000 women hate women. It's one thing we all agree on. Nobody even noticed the line. Nobody even talked 1.00

00:19:29.220 about it. I mean, I did, I talked about it, but I didn't read any articles about it. It was just like,

00:19:33.420 oh yeah, that's true. And I thought if we live in a society where men and women hate women, 0.99

00:19:38.000 we're living in a sick society, which is actually what I believe we're in. I think we're in a moment

00:19:41.680 of, of real mental illness, of cultural mental illness. I, I don't think it can last, or at least

00:19:47.780 the culture that does it can last. So it's a question of whether we're going to rediscover

00:19:52.360 the underlying truth of existence or we're not, you know, and we're going to disappear. But I think

00:19:57.980 it's a real thing. You know, I think what you say, when you say that the, the attempt to

00:20:01.760 extinguish beauty, it's a real thing. Um, yeah, real effort. Yeah. I, uh, yeah, I couldn't,

00:20:09.220 I couldn't agree more. I, before I let you go, I did have, and this is a little bit out of left

00:20:13.400 field, sort of related, but not really. But since I have you, I do have a, I have a quick bone to

00:20:19.040 pick with you that I, that I'm just going to throw at you right now because a couple of, uh,

00:20:23.460 we're talking about films. So it is a little bit related. A few days ago, you put out a video on

00:20:28.480 your YouTube channel where you're ranking Westerns. Yes. And I watched the whole, the whole video

00:20:34.520 and I, I agreed with many of your rankings. However, you, the, the movie open range,

00:20:42.120 you didn't even, it was not in your rankings at all. It was unranked. And that's in my mind that

00:20:46.760 that's the, that's probably my favorite Western of all time. So I'm just waiting. What does he think

00:20:51.180 of open range? We'll get the S tier and you didn't even mention it. So what, what's up with that?

00:20:55.320 I want to plead innocence here that on the, when they put out the caption on that video,

00:21:00.560 it said Clavin's list of great Westerns or something like that. It was not, I was given

00:21:05.340 the Westerns and had to judge them ad lib as they were coming over. I didn't make the list. The list

00:21:10.400 was culled from, uh, in the internet. And so they just were pouring them at me and I stopped midway

00:21:18.060 because it was just going for too long. So I didn't leave out open range. I didn't leave out,

00:21:22.580 you know, the, uh, the searchers or anything like that. I mean, it was just, those were the ones I

00:21:26.680 was given to talk about. And I liked open range, but I, I'm, I'm surprised that you liked it that

00:21:31.320 much. I thought it was, I thought it was a really good Western. I really liked it and I'd probably

00:21:35.720 give it an A, but I don't think it was one of the great Westerns of all time. Was it?

00:21:39.320 You know what I, what I liked about it so much is, uh, well, for one thing, it, it, it, it reminded me,

00:21:44.580 it reminds me a lot of Lonesome Dove, which, which is my, one of my favorite things that's ever,

00:21:49.120 you know, favorite movie or, yeah. So it reminds me a lot of that, but also it had, you know,

00:21:54.880 I'm, what, what I love about Westerns, I think everyone loves about Westerns is, uh, is, you

00:22:00.480 know, sometimes you have Westerns that, that will play with the formula a little bit, but I like the

00:22:04.880 formula, which is, and it always, it has to end with a shootout. And I agree with you because you

00:22:09.700 talked about, you talked about Tombstone and how you didn't, you kind of like, it feels like it trails

00:22:13.340 off at the end. I felt the same way. I watched it actually recently for the first time. I'd never seen it

00:22:16.740 and, you know, doing the big shootout and then it goes on for 45 minutes. It doesn't know you got

00:22:22.060 the shootout is at the end and open range. And I think has maybe the greatest shootout

00:22:28.460 maybe in film history, but at least in Western film history. Yeah, no, it's great. Great shootout.

00:22:34.740 The scene where they bury the dog is great. The girl is great. I mean, it's, it's got a lot. And

00:22:38.920 Kevin Costner is always worth watching. I mean, it's like he does, he's one of the few people who

00:22:43.460 still does movies like that and did them for quite some time. And so, but I didn't leave it. I just

00:22:48.960 want to say, I didn't leave it out. I was getting hit with this on X, you know, people saying, why

00:22:52.820 did you leave out this and why did you leave out that? I didn't leave out or put in anything. I

00:22:56.200 was given the list and then had to comment on it. That was the thing. That was the way the system

00:23:00.100 worked. So I plead innocent to this and I, I, you know, I will do penance if I have to, but I think

00:23:05.880 that that's, it's only fair to say that I think we should fire the people who did it and bring and

00:23:10.880 name them publicly and possibly chase them through the street, hurling, you know, rotten vegetables

00:23:15.620 out. Yeah. Well, you can tell me off there, you can tell me the name of the person off there and

00:23:18.860 I'll go find them and yell at them. Okay. I'll, I'll write you. Yeah. Okay. Well, uh,

00:23:23.180 Andrew Clever, the book, The Kingdom of Cain, Finding God in the Literature of Darkness, which is

00:23:27.800 available right now and you should go pick it up. Uh, thanks a lot. Appreciate it. Great to see you.

00:23:32.700 Thanks a lot.

The Matt Walsh Show - May 10, 2025

How True Crime Can Reveal God ｜ Matt Walsh & Andrew Klavan Discuss

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