The Matt Walsh Show - My Discussion With Jordan Peterson

00:00:00.000 So there's an idea, for example, that's central to the Christian worldview that wherever two people are together, the spirit of God himself is present.

00:00:15.480 And a secular interpretation of that is that it's therapeutic.

00:00:30.000 Dr. Peterson, thanks for taking the time to talk to me today.

00:00:49.720 I appreciate it.

00:00:50.840 I'm looking forward to it.

00:00:52.400 Now, we were just talking a little bit off air.

00:00:54.820 I think that, and I want to set up what led to this conversation for the benefit of the audience.

00:01:00.000 That isn't on Twitter.

00:01:02.220 But I think that a lot of people in the audience are expecting or maybe hoping that this will be kind of a debate between us.

00:01:12.660 And I don't want to disappoint anyone, but that's not exactly my plan.

00:01:15.340 I actually just wanted to talk to you and get your insight into a lot of these issues having to do with mental illness and therapy.

00:01:23.660 And I'll admit up front that I have a lot of doubts and a lot of questions on this topic, but my mind is not totally made up.

00:01:33.920 So you might even change my mind, which doesn't happen very often, but it could happen today.

00:01:37.940 So let me just, I guess, set this up a little bit, what started all this.

00:01:45.360 I tweeted something a couple of weeks ago about therapy, and I expressed my view that I've said several times publicly that I think therapy is very often a waste of time.

00:01:56.120 It's very often something that does more harm than it does good.

00:01:59.300 And we'll expand on that in a moment.

00:02:01.640 That turned into a conversation about mental illness and things like depression and anxiety, something I've also talked about quite a bit, and whether those things are really a disease or whether they've been miscategorized.

00:02:14.220 And I think that they, that we have made sort of a category error with them that made people very upset.

00:02:21.060 And that's when it was suggested that, that you and I should talk.

00:02:23.580 And I think people are hoping that you'll set me straight on some of this.

00:02:26.240 So I'm hoping that we could kind of start with the second thing, which is mental illness.

00:02:31.440 And then I think that will lead more naturally into the conversation about therapy and what it is and what its purpose is.

00:02:37.360 So my, again, my view, just to start things, is that I, it seems to me we've made a major mistake in treating things like depression as a disease.

00:02:52.000 You know, as if having them, it's like having diabetes or malaria or something, treating it as a, as a totally physical phenomenon.

00:03:01.640 And from that category error, a lot of negative consequences have followed.

00:03:09.180 But what do you, what do you say to that?

00:03:11.320 Well, I would say that within the broad and vague category of depression, there are many separate entities lurking and hiding.

00:03:22.000 And that conflating them is problematic with regard to understanding and also with regard to treatment.

00:03:32.080 And so depression per se is a secondary category.

00:03:38.580 It's a secondary manifestation of proclivity to negative emotion.

00:03:42.880 That's the broadest possible conceptualization.

00:03:45.940 And that manifests itself in the personality structure as trait neuroticism.

00:03:49.980 All of the negative emotions clump together, which means that if you're more likely to experience one, you're more likely to experience all of them.

00:04:00.800 So you could think that there's a general emotional arousal capacity that typifies emotions,

00:04:10.240 and it branches into two major subcategories, positive and negative emotion.

00:04:15.700 And those are quite separate neurologically and psychopharmacologically, functionally, although they are to some degree mutually inhibitory.

00:04:25.780 So there are chemicals that increase positive emotion, and there are chemicals that decrease negative emotion.

00:04:33.460 The chemicals that decrease negative emotion can be subdivided into chemicals that decrease anxiety per se.

00:04:39.600 That's benzodiazepines, barbiturates, and alcohol, and medications that decrease pain.

00:04:46.400 And pain is frustration, disappointment, grief, shame, and physical pain.

00:04:54.460 So that's the negative emotion side is where you have trait neuroticism, and then that can be subdivided.

00:05:00.680 That can become pathological.

00:05:03.040 And by pathological, what is meant is something like either unbearable or interfering with functions associated with both basically survival and reproduction.

00:05:15.920 And that's a judgment call when levels of negative emotion get so high that they now take on clinical significance.

00:05:23.160 The way that well-trained clinicians determine that is that levels of negative emotion have risen to the point where, as I said,

00:05:30.900 either the person finds it subjectively unbearable, or there's evidence that important domains of broad function have been compromised.

00:05:39.160 Now, so, for example, if I was trying to determine if you abused alcohol, I would find out, first of all, how much you consumed.

00:05:50.240 But then I would find out, is that causing you trouble with the police?

00:05:54.020 Is it causing you trouble with yourself in terms of guilt and shame and regret?

00:05:58.700 Is it causing trouble with your family?

00:06:00.540 Is it interfering with your employment?

00:06:03.260 Is it starting to take over your life?

00:06:05.080 And you make the same kind of diagnostic judgment when you're evaluating someone who's suffering from an excess, let's say, of anxiety or an excess of pain,

00:06:16.300 which would be more a depression-like phenomenon.

00:06:19.240 Now, and so you have to do a very careful diagnosis to find out to what degree that's occurring,

00:06:26.700 to what degree it can be attributed, let's say, to anxiety or to depression,

00:06:30.100 how long-standing it is, and then there's the necessity for a detailed causal analysis.

00:06:36.800 You made mention of the mistake of categorizing depression, for example,

00:06:44.140 which is a pain-like phenomenon as an illness, and I would say,

00:06:48.500 well, sometimes it is a consequence of a physical illness,

00:06:51.840 and sometimes it's more psychological or functional,

00:06:55.260 and you have to be very careful from a diagnostic perspective that you get that right.

00:07:00.920 So I'll give you an example.

00:07:02.120 I just talked to a neuropsychiatrist at McLean's Hospital in Boston named Chris Palmer,

00:07:09.320 and he's very much convinced that a lot of endogenous depression,

00:07:15.880 and so that's depression that doesn't seem to have an immediate cause in loss or other catastrophe,

00:07:22.180 is in a metabolic disorder, and he's trying desperately at the moment to treat it with diet.

00:07:27.860 So there are some forms of depression that are clearly illness-related.

00:07:32.260 Like, we've known for a long time that you're much more likely to have signs of immunological dysfunction

00:07:39.180 if you're depressed, for example.

00:07:41.400 So when I diagnosed my clients, the first thing I would try to figure out was,

00:07:46.480 well, are you just ill?

00:07:48.560 I don't mean just, as if that's nothing.

00:07:50.720 It's not nothing, but if the depression is a secondary consequence of some physiological disorder,

00:07:56.840 that has to be, well, that's the first place you'd start, hopefully.

00:08:01.540 See if the person's just ill.

00:08:04.280 And there's lots of forms of depression that seem to have that more physical illness-like manifestation.

00:08:11.500 So seasonal affective disorder is a good example,

00:08:15.100 because people who have seasonal affective disorder are reliably much more depressed at the darkest times of the year.

00:08:22.500 And that seems to be a circadian rhythm disorder.

00:08:25.060 So, sorry, that's a long-winded answer, but it's necessary.

00:08:29.160 There's the broad category of negative emotion.

00:08:32.000 There's the narrow category of depression.

00:08:34.880 Within depression, there are multiple entities, and they have some commonality,

00:08:41.860 and the commonality would be pain-like suffering,

00:08:44.700 but the causal roots can be manifold and virtually unrelated.

00:08:53.240 Yeah.

00:08:53.700 So that might help clear it up.

00:08:55.860 So if depression is a consequence of a physical illness,

00:09:02.200 then does that mean that the depression itself is an illness,

00:09:06.280 or is it just a manifestation of an illness?

00:09:10.460 Well, see, there's a problem with the question,

00:09:15.320 because it's not much clearer what an illness is

00:09:20.500 than it is clear whether or not depression is an illness, right?

00:09:25.100 Because you can think of illness in a relatively straightforward manner

00:09:29.440 as something caused by a pathogen, like a virus or a bacteria,

00:09:33.120 but there's many things that we would consider illnesses

00:09:36.400 that aren't obviously caused by a pathogen.

00:09:39.640 And so the notion of illness is in itself the kind of mystery

00:09:44.380 that you're also facing when you are trying to wrestle

00:09:48.940 with the question of what constitutes depression.

00:09:51.260 You can define illness as deviation from normality.

00:09:57.140 Sometimes that's a useful conceptualization.

00:10:00.020 You can define illness as deviation from ideal,

00:10:03.620 which is quite a bit different than deviation from normality.

00:10:07.260 You can define illness in terms of function.

00:10:10.020 So if you're sufficiently led astray by a given circumstance or trait

00:10:19.260 so that, as I mentioned earlier,

00:10:21.540 multiple important areas of your life are compromised,

00:10:24.660 then that can be thrown into the category of illness.

00:10:28.140 Both illness and health, let's say, if they're opposites,

00:10:31.020 they're very, very ill-defined and global concepts.

00:10:34.280 But this is partly why the idea of health care in some ways

00:10:38.880 is also utterly preposterous because, well, what isn't relevant to health?

00:10:44.500 If you have a category that's so broad that it contains everything,

00:10:48.260 it's not that useful as a category.

00:10:50.560 And health is a category that's essentially that broad.

00:10:54.440 Health doesn't mean much different than ideal, for example.

00:10:58.640 So is depression an illness?

00:11:00.580 Well, the problem with those binary questions is that by asking them,

00:11:06.220 you assume that one of those concepts is more well-defined than the other.

00:11:11.640 And in this case, it's just not.

00:11:14.680 Do you think it'd be fair?

00:11:15.840 I haven't really thought much about this,

00:11:17.220 but the actual definition of what an illness is is interesting

00:11:20.580 when you point it out that it takes some thinking to get to that.

00:11:26.040 But would it be too simple to say that illness is a physical malfunction of some kind?

00:11:34.640 Well, sometimes it's too simple because you can become physically ill

00:11:44.700 for reasons that are essentially psychological.

00:11:48.720 Now, it depends on where you draw the line between psychological and physical,

00:11:53.900 but we'll just use common language approach.

00:11:59.420 I've had clients who...

00:12:02.720 And this is specific to more, let's say, cognitive approaches to depression.

00:12:11.220 I've had clients who were cast into misery as a consequence of thoughts and behaviours

00:12:19.540 that weren't sufficiently functional.

00:12:21.700 So, for example, you can find yourself isolated, alone, angry, bitter, resentful,

00:12:29.260 stressed with high blood pressure and panic attacks

00:12:34.880 because you're not, because you have no friends

00:12:39.060 and you can find yourself in a situation where you have no friends

00:12:42.120 because you have no social skills.

00:12:43.900 And so, and you have no social skills, let's say,

00:12:47.400 because you weren't socialised well

00:12:49.260 and you lack a lot of the micro routines that make you socially acceptable.

00:12:53.920 Now, that's a complex pathway to pathology,

00:12:57.580 but it's, you can understand that it's,

00:13:00.520 that a behavioural approach to that or even a cognitive approach

00:13:03.680 might be the most appropriate.

00:13:06.800 There's lots of people who are miserable because they're isolated.

00:13:10.760 That's a, that's very common.

00:13:12.500 And they're miserable enough so that it's having not only,

00:13:17.740 you know, it's not only making them suffer subjectively,

00:13:21.120 but the stress that's associated with that destroys them physiologically.

00:13:26.860 If you are stressed beyond a certain level,

00:13:31.000 your body starts to devour its future resources to manage the present.

00:13:38.140 That's what a stress response does in some ways.

00:13:40.940 It ratchets up your metabolic rate even

00:13:45.120 so that you can focus more attention on the present

00:13:49.280 to solve the crisis that surround you.

00:13:52.580 But the cost of that is that you're burning resources

00:13:56.680 that you might optimally want to conserve for the future.

00:14:01.780 And if, if you're doing that for a few minutes or even hours

00:14:06.140 because you have to address a crisis,

00:14:08.960 well, fair enough.

00:14:10.520 You'll go to sleep, you'll eat, you'll go to sleep, you'll recover.

00:14:14.000 But if you're like that chronically,

00:14:15.940 then it starts to physically take you apart.

00:14:20.340 It accelerates your aging.

00:14:22.500 That's a good way of thinking about it.

00:14:24.640 And so a stressful job can do that.

00:14:28.020 Would you say, well, have, is stress,

00:14:29.600 having a stressful job an illness?

00:14:32.140 Well, no, but it certainly can contribute

00:14:34.880 to having all sorts of illnesses.

00:14:38.020 That's absolutely crystal clear.

00:14:40.820 And so now, you know, you're concerned, I think,

00:14:46.340 more and probably rightly so with fuzzy thinking

00:14:49.520 around such issues.

00:14:50.700 And you should be concerned about that

00:14:52.620 because when you go see a professional

00:14:54.960 who will undertake an appropriate diagnosis,

00:14:58.920 you want someone who's sharp

00:15:00.900 and who uses very careful definitions

00:15:02.940 because if they aren't capable of making

00:15:06.640 such differentiated diagnosis,

00:15:09.380 they won't identify the cause of your problem

00:15:12.540 and in consequence, they won't treat you effectively.

00:15:16.740 You know, it would often take me months

00:15:19.300 to diagnose someone who came to me as a client.

00:15:24.300 Now, there's a tremendous amount of pressure

00:15:25.960 on physicians and psychologists,

00:15:28.500 psychiatrists for that matter,

00:15:29.660 to diagnose in the first five minutes of their encounter.

00:15:33.220 And even patients slash clients themselves

00:15:36.460 might want that because no one likes to live in a mystery.

00:15:40.140 But I'll tell you, man, getting the problem right

00:15:43.660 is 90% of the solution.

00:15:47.080 In psychology as well as in politics, you might say,

00:15:50.800 you know, you want to make sure

00:15:52.820 that you're barking up the right tree.

00:15:55.500 And that's very tricky in a situation

00:15:57.800 where the person's presenting symptoms

00:16:00.460 are in the constellation of depressive ideas and emotions.

00:16:08.680 Technically, depression is a pain-like disorder,

00:16:12.280 by the way, as opposed to anxiety.

00:16:15.900 So anxiety, especially excess anxiety,

00:16:19.920 is a response to threat.

00:16:22.560 Pain is a response to punishment and damage.

00:16:25.320 So anxiety is a more abstracted form of negative emotion.

00:16:29.880 If you're depressed, you're more likely to be anxious

00:16:32.060 and vice versa because all negative emotions overlap.

00:16:35.260 But the treatments for those two things are also,

00:16:38.360 they're also quite different.

00:16:42.420 Let me, you're talking about causes,

00:16:45.100 and you mentioned earlier someone who has,

00:16:48.740 whose theory about depression

00:16:50.760 that doesn't have an immediate cause

00:16:52.020 might have something to do with metabolism.

00:16:54.680 So here's my, kind of my fundamental thing

00:16:57.880 that I keep running into when it comes to,

00:16:59.720 and I'm using depression.

00:17:01.000 Of course, I think this applies to

00:17:02.420 many other things that we call mental illnesses,

00:17:05.660 but just using that.

00:17:08.500 So it seems like you can kind of separate it

00:17:10.800 into two broad categories.

00:17:12.020 And one is that you've got someone

00:17:13.740 who's, say, is coming to you

00:17:14.860 and they're depressed,

00:17:16.620 and then you ask them what's going on in their lives,

00:17:18.500 and then you find out that the wife just left them,

00:17:22.920 lost their job,

00:17:24.160 their kids don't respect them, whatever.

00:17:25.980 And it becomes really obvious

00:17:27.100 that this is a response

00:17:28.840 to things that are happening in their lives.

00:17:30.160 And in fact, a quite rational response

00:17:32.920 to terrible things that are happening in their lives.

00:17:35.720 So in a case like that,

00:17:36.900 it would seem obvious to me that,

00:17:38.800 you know, that's not an illness.

00:17:39.900 That's you processing and responding

00:17:43.820 to what's happening in your environment.

00:17:45.280 On the other hand, you have the depression

00:17:48.760 that doesn't appear to have an immediate cause.

00:17:51.500 And I don't know if this is exactly your view,

00:17:53.580 but one thing I've heard a lot from people

00:17:55.500 is that, well, you know you've got clinical,

00:17:58.200 actual clinical diagnosable depression

00:18:00.620 when it does not have that immediate cause.

00:18:02.680 But my point there,

00:18:05.300 and this is where it gets pretty abstract,

00:18:08.800 but I think it's kind of a misnomer

00:18:11.540 to say that depression could ever not have a cause.

00:18:14.820 Because I think that the human condition itself,

00:18:20.600 the very fact that we are conscious beings

00:18:23.060 operating in this world of death and misery

00:18:25.340 and we're living temporary lives

00:18:27.040 and we know it, you know,

00:18:28.880 and we're all going to die and we know it

00:18:30.500 and that we have this awareness to be,

00:18:34.000 we are self-aware,

00:18:34.660 we have this awareness of ourselves,

00:18:35.960 which I think is what consciousness is.

00:18:37.820 That that alone is a rat,

00:18:41.340 is reason to feel despair,

00:18:43.280 which I would, which is depression.

00:18:45.600 Right, well, one of the things

00:18:46.880 that you can derive from that

00:18:48.520 is that the mystery isn't why people are depressed,

00:18:51.040 it's why they're ever not depressed.

00:18:53.920 Exactly, that's kind of my view.

00:18:56.160 Well, you can say the same thing about anxiety.

00:18:58.340 I mean, your point there is that

00:19:00.300 all cognizant mortal beings

00:19:04.400 have sufficient reason for despair, right?

00:19:08.480 Yes.

00:19:08.860 Yes, and I think, well, I actually think that's true.

00:19:10.960 I think the fact that

00:19:12.060 we are able to live without paralyzing anxiety,

00:19:16.680 because I think anxiety is probably

00:19:18.200 the more germane response

00:19:20.720 in the face of that kind of existential doubt.

00:19:23.020 the fact that we're able to live

00:19:25.460 in the absence of anxiety ever

00:19:27.340 is a fundamental mystery.

00:19:29.440 I also believe that psychologists

00:19:30.900 who have their thoughts lined properly

00:19:34.680 are much more concerned with the mystery of sanity

00:19:37.260 than they are perplexed by the mystery of insanity.

00:19:42.420 Now, it isn't obvious how we can live without anxiety.

00:19:46.860 In fact, it's not obvious at all.

00:19:50.140 And it's not obvious at all

00:19:51.780 how it is that we structure our beliefs

00:19:54.620 to extract sustaining meaning

00:19:57.820 from the mortal chaos in some ways that surround us.

00:20:02.460 Now, let me go back to the beginning of that question, though.

00:20:05.880 So you pointed to people, for example,

00:20:07.840 who are in a reactive state of, let's say, grief

00:20:11.320 that's depression-like.

00:20:13.320 And depression looks a lot like a grief response,

00:20:17.140 by the way.

00:20:17.660 They overlap tremendously.

00:20:19.860 Now, a good clinician will move forward,

00:20:24.420 let's say, if someone is bereaved.

00:20:28.720 Trying to determine when that switches

00:20:31.300 into clinically relevant depression

00:20:33.920 is a judgment call.

00:20:35.020 But here's one way that a good clinician

00:20:37.440 would contemplate that.

00:20:39.840 If you've suffered a loss,

00:20:42.200 but the manner in which you're reacting to that loss

00:20:45.520 is accruing more losses around you

00:20:48.440 so that you're starting to go like this,

00:20:51.600 then that's a pathway that, well,

00:20:58.160 leads to no good end

00:20:59.740 and where intervention might be useful.

00:21:04.320 Now, and so, obviously, that's a tough call

00:21:06.660 because, for example,

00:21:08.180 if you're in love with your wife

00:21:11.300 and you've predicated some of your,

00:21:13.220 or much of your happiness and security

00:21:15.120 on her presence

00:21:16.140 and she dies a terrible death,

00:21:18.480 you have every reason,

00:21:19.860 as you pointed out, to despair.

00:21:23.340 But if the despair

00:21:25.000 multiplies and

00:21:27.180 metastasizes

00:21:29.280 so that your suicide

00:21:31.720 is the likely outcome,

00:21:34.320 even though that's understandable,

00:21:35.860 it seems both undesirable

00:21:37.680 and also potentially

00:21:39.140 ameliorable,

00:21:41.040 partly because

00:21:41.840 there are

00:21:43.060 less and more

00:21:45.160 productive ways

00:21:46.160 of dealing with grief,

00:21:47.280 even if the grief

00:21:48.340 is catastrophic,

00:21:49.700 and partly also

00:21:51.080 because,

00:21:52.240 well, let's say

00:21:53.040 you're the father

00:21:54.060 of three children

00:21:55.040 and your wife dies.

00:21:56.480 Well,

00:21:57.400 it's understandable

00:21:59.780 that you'd be thrown

00:22:01.060 into the abyss,

00:22:02.020 but it's counterproductive

00:22:02.860 counterproductive

00:22:03.740 to wander down that road

00:22:06.000 to the point

00:22:06.480 where you die, too,

00:22:08.120 and now your children

00:22:09.440 are facing

00:22:10.280 a dual loss.

00:22:12.480 And so,

00:22:13.400 one of the,

00:22:14.600 of course,

00:22:15.460 what that means

00:22:16.160 is that one of the mysteries

00:22:17.620 that

00:22:18.100 wise clinicians

00:22:19.920 contend with

00:22:20.700 is how to find,

00:22:22.000 is how to help people

00:22:23.060 find sustaining meaning

00:22:24.560 in the midst

00:22:25.560 of genuine crisis.

00:22:27.080 There's not much difference

00:22:28.300 between that

00:22:28.940 and helping people

00:22:30.220 find meaning

00:22:31.020 in the course

00:22:33.640 of their vulnerable lives.

00:22:36.300 And that is something

00:22:37.900 that,

00:22:39.540 well,

00:22:39.820 that's the purpose

00:22:40.500 of the religious enterprise,

00:22:42.440 all things considered,

00:22:43.740 and we do find

00:22:45.620 sustaining meaning.

00:22:47.380 Yeah,

00:22:47.620 and that's kind of

00:22:48.200 my point.

00:22:49.700 I don't want to jump ahead

00:22:50.440 to the therapy piece of this,

00:22:51.820 but you said

00:22:53.200 the job of the clinicians

00:22:54.340 is to help them find

00:22:55.160 sustained meaning.

00:22:56.980 And I totally agree

00:22:58.940 with you on that.

00:23:01.580 But my question

00:23:02.840 is whether

00:23:03.320 a loss of meaning

00:23:05.440 is really

00:23:06.640 a medical concern

00:23:07.760 at all,

00:23:09.100 or have we

00:23:10.040 taken clinicians

00:23:12.100 and they have essentially,

00:23:14.200 we've taken

00:23:14.780 all these things

00:23:15.620 that historically,

00:23:17.100 you know,

00:23:17.340 anxiety,

00:23:18.400 despair,

00:23:19.040 grief,

00:23:19.380 obviously,

00:23:20.100 human beings

00:23:21.000 have been dealing

00:23:22.300 with that

00:23:22.580 since time immemorial

00:23:23.440 and have also been

00:23:24.480 writing about it

00:23:25.060 and thinking about it

00:23:25.800 and finding different ways

00:23:26.520 to cope with it.

00:23:27.500 But if you go back

00:23:28.340 before the kind of

00:23:29.340 psychiatric revolution,

00:23:31.540 I guess we would say,

00:23:32.780 if you wanted to consult

00:23:34.240 with someone

00:23:34.900 to help you

00:23:35.640 with these issues

00:23:36.540 and define meaning,

00:23:37.260 you'd talk to a priest

00:23:38.060 or you'd read a philosopher.

00:23:41.120 And so it seems like

00:23:42.080 we've taken the priest

00:23:44.320 and the philosopher

00:23:44.940 and we've collapsed

00:23:46.580 all of that

00:23:47.120 into the doctor.

00:23:49.000 And now the doctor

00:23:49.960 kind of plays

00:23:50.620 all of these roles,

00:23:51.860 which troubles me

00:23:53.460 because I think that

00:23:54.340 in most cases,

00:23:56.280 and I'm not just saying this

00:23:57.020 because I'm talking

00:23:57.500 to you right now,

00:23:58.220 but you're an exception

00:23:59.140 to this.

00:23:59.680 You can actually be,

00:24:01.700 you know,

00:24:02.080 you are a philosopher,

00:24:03.760 really, I think,

00:24:04.980 as well as being a doctor.

00:24:06.740 But that to me

00:24:08.480 is a rare,

00:24:09.760 that's a rare case.

00:24:11.020 I mean,

00:24:11.200 most of these therapists

00:24:12.780 and psychiatrists

00:24:13.900 that I,

00:24:14.260 at least that I have

00:24:15.040 encountered and talked to,

00:24:16.240 not only are they

00:24:18.800 not equipped

00:24:19.400 to be philosophers

00:24:21.300 and priests as well,

00:24:22.200 but they actually have,

00:24:24.700 they seem to have

00:24:25.280 less of an understanding

00:24:26.620 of human nature

00:24:28.120 and the human condition

00:24:29.000 than even the average person

00:24:30.380 on the street does.

00:24:32.340 And so that's my problem

00:24:35.020 is that we've taken

00:24:35.700 all these things

00:24:36.280 and we've just contained it all

00:24:38.660 in the medical field,

00:24:40.100 which also means that

00:24:41.040 if you don't have the PhD,

00:24:43.340 if you don't have the doctorate,

00:24:44.280 if you don't have those letters

00:24:45.120 next to your name

00:24:45.760 and you start talking about

00:24:47.760 these big issues,

00:24:49.800 like what's the meaning of life

00:24:51.260 and why are we living

00:24:52.260 and what's the point

00:24:53.020 and why keep living

00:24:54.200 if you're suffering,

00:24:54.940 these are big problems

00:24:55.960 and we all have a stake in it.

00:24:58.400 But if you don't,

00:24:59.580 if you're not a doctor

00:25:00.320 and you talk about it,

00:25:01.640 people will say,

00:25:02.380 well, where's your degree?

00:25:03.760 Who are you to talk about this?

00:25:05.680 And I always say to that,

00:25:06.560 well, I'm a human being.

00:25:08.020 I live a life just like you.

00:25:10.260 We should all be

00:25:11.640 having this conversation,

00:25:13.540 but we've decided

00:25:15.420 that it is a medical issue only,

00:25:17.760 which kind of narrows the scope

00:25:20.460 of the people

00:25:21.140 that are allowed

00:25:21.580 to have an opinion.

00:25:23.200 Well, I would say

00:25:24.580 there is,

00:25:25.540 that's part of the problem

00:25:26.660 with an overbroad definition

00:25:28.240 of health, right?

00:25:29.240 Because that's also

00:25:30.340 a reflection of the collapse

00:25:32.000 of the sacred

00:25:32.680 into the profane.

00:25:34.560 Because when the sacred

00:25:36.140 collapses into the profane,

00:25:38.180 one of the things that happens

00:25:39.520 is that everything

00:25:40.380 becomes about health.

00:25:41.820 It's a secondary consequence

00:25:45.640 of the collapse

00:25:47.520 of the spiritual

00:25:48.280 into the material.

00:25:49.380 If there's no spiritual,

00:25:50.540 everything becomes material.

00:25:51.820 If everything is material,

00:25:53.060 well, then the difference

00:25:54.880 between what's good

00:25:55.760 and what's bad

00:25:56.380 becomes health.

00:25:57.620 And if everything is health,

00:25:58.860 then the doctor

00:25:59.740 is the magic bullet.

00:26:01.900 Now, and obviously,

00:26:03.900 there are all sorts

00:26:06.880 of problems with that.

00:26:08.460 There's no reason

00:26:10.140 to assume that on average,

00:26:12.380 apart from their generally

00:26:13.680 higher cognitive abilities,

00:26:19.140 that physicians

00:26:19.900 are any better

00:26:20.580 at dealing with

00:26:21.280 the iniquities of life

00:26:22.640 than anyone else.

00:26:24.580 Let's see.

00:26:25.280 So could I make a case

00:26:26.360 for clinical psychologists,

00:26:28.160 per se,

00:26:28.700 because I'm

00:26:29.040 a clinical psychologist?

00:26:30.180 Well, when I trained

00:26:32.180 as a clinical psychologist,

00:26:33.320 it was difficult

00:26:34.260 to become one.

00:26:36.400 So, for example,

00:26:37.340 the GRE,

00:26:40.720 so that was

00:26:41.140 the entrance exam,

00:26:42.220 the standardized

00:26:42.720 entrance exam.

00:26:43.820 If you didn't score

00:26:44.860 95th percentile

00:26:46.840 or above on that,

00:26:47.760 the probability

00:26:48.300 that you were going

00:26:49.140 to get into

00:26:49.640 a high-level

00:26:50.240 clinical psychology program

00:26:52.260 was extraordinarily low.

00:26:53.720 And those are

00:26:54.220 basically IQ tests.

00:26:56.480 They're not

00:26:56.840 basically IQ tests.

00:26:58.440 They're IQ tests.

00:26:59.780 They're heavily

00:27:00.280 verbally loaded,

00:27:01.160 but they're IQ tests.

00:27:02.140 And then the training

00:27:04.480 was long and arduous

00:27:06.040 and difficult.

00:27:07.280 Not unpleasant,

00:27:08.340 I would say.

00:27:08.940 I enjoyed it a lot,

00:27:09.980 but you had to develop

00:27:11.380 a high level

00:27:12.100 of conscientiousness

00:27:13.600 to manage it.

00:27:15.020 And so I would say

00:27:16.700 it was often useful.

00:27:19.200 And I watched

00:27:19.780 my colleagues transform

00:27:21.740 as they were trained

00:27:23.640 and as they were called upon

00:27:25.500 to offer counseling

00:27:27.940 and develop strategies

00:27:29.620 with their clients.

00:27:30.780 I watched them mature

00:27:32.120 and become more reliable

00:27:33.760 and more awake

00:27:35.220 and alert

00:27:35.980 and wiser.

00:27:38.180 And I would say

00:27:38.960 for many people,

00:27:40.240 having a consultant

00:27:42.120 who can help you

00:27:43.780 take apart

00:27:44.680 the issues of your life,

00:27:46.100 who can listen to you

00:27:47.580 and can help you strategize

00:27:49.300 can be extremely useful.

00:27:51.620 Now,

00:27:52.380 that's balanced

00:27:53.660 with the threat

00:27:55.260 that there's nothing

00:27:56.980 more dangerous

00:27:57.760 than a loose cannon therapist.

00:28:00.780 and one of your concerns

00:28:03.560 and one of the reasons

00:28:04.260 I wanted to have

00:28:04.920 this conversation

00:28:05.700 was because you were

00:28:06.860 expressing concern

00:28:08.500 that the therapeutic

00:28:10.300 industry as such

00:28:12.660 may now do more harm

00:28:14.840 than good.

00:28:15.880 And I would say

00:28:16.980 I'm probably inclined

00:28:18.740 to agree with that.

00:28:20.680 And I would say as well

00:28:22.080 that it's partly

00:28:23.320 because of something else

00:28:25.220 you pointed to,

00:28:26.180 which is

00:28:26.520 the drift

00:28:28.060 of the therapeutic

00:28:29.640 away from the ethical.

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00:29:35.780 Now, some of the greatest

00:29:37.460 clinicians that ever lived

00:29:39.440 were, for all intents

00:29:42.800 and purposes,

00:29:44.440 religious people.

00:29:46.160 Freud, Freud was Jewish

00:29:48.800 and from a religious community

00:29:51.640 and an indeterminate

00:29:54.740 and an indeterminate number

00:29:57.740 of the propositions

00:29:59.080 that structured his thinking

00:30:00.600 were religious,

00:30:01.880 which is exactly what

00:30:03.080 Carl Jung pointed out to him

00:30:05.080 and that's really what led

00:30:07.780 to their separation,

00:30:09.140 their professional separation

00:30:10.420 and estrangement.

00:30:11.920 So when Jung looked deep

00:30:13.220 into the psychoanalytic endeavor,

00:30:16.240 even more deeply than Freud did,

00:30:18.020 what he discovered

00:30:19.220 was the religious substructure

00:30:21.020 underneath it

00:30:21.840 and Jung got that right,

00:30:24.440 dead right.

00:30:26.200 And so,

00:30:27.160 and then there was another

00:30:28.420 very famous clinician,

00:30:31.020 Carl Rogers,

00:30:31.680 who was a humanist

00:30:33.080 in the 1960s,

00:30:34.240 but Rogers was a humanist

00:30:36.660 the way that,

00:30:37.920 he was a Christian missionary

00:30:39.640 on his way to China

00:30:41.040 when he lost faith

00:30:43.040 in his religious enterprise

00:30:44.920 and all he did,

00:30:47.020 all,

00:30:47.960 was translate

00:30:49.040 the fundamental dynamics

00:30:51.720 of Christian ethics

00:30:54.420 into the therapeutic realm

00:30:55.840 and wallpaper the name

00:30:58.020 humanist on top of that.

00:30:59.920 Now, look,

00:31:00.540 I'm saying that

00:31:01.160 as a great admirer of Rogers.

00:31:03.000 Carl Rogers,

00:31:04.080 I learned a lot

00:31:05.120 from reading Rogers' work,

00:31:06.520 but he was essentially

00:31:08.580 a Christian ethicist

00:31:09.840 and I would say as well

00:31:11.660 that to the degree

00:31:13.460 that the therapeutic process

00:31:15.860 works,

00:31:16.820 it works because of

00:31:18.120 its embeddedness

00:31:20.660 in a much deeper tradition.

00:31:22.520 So there's an idea,

00:31:23.600 for example,

00:31:24.280 that's central

00:31:26.140 to the Christian worldview

00:31:29.120 that wherever two people

00:31:32.460 are together

00:31:34.120 aiming up

00:31:36.300 and telling the truth

00:31:37.520 that the spirit of God

00:31:41.540 himself is present,

00:31:44.480 right?

00:31:44.760 That's the notion

00:31:45.540 that where two or more

00:31:47.000 are gathered in my name,

00:31:48.280 there I am

00:31:48.880 that Christ makes reference

00:31:50.600 to in the Gospels.

00:31:51.600 Well,

00:31:52.120 there's a psychological

00:31:53.020 meaning to that,

00:31:54.300 which is that

00:31:55.220 honest communication

00:31:59.480 is therapeutic.

00:32:01.940 It's the wrong word.

00:32:03.520 It's enlightening.

00:32:04.280 It's illuminating.

00:32:05.780 It moves you closer to God

00:32:07.860 and a secular

00:32:09.880 interpretation of that

00:32:11.400 is that it's

00:32:12.580 therapeutic,

00:32:13.660 but that language

00:32:14.780 suffers from the

00:32:15.740 contamination of

00:32:17.040 enlightenment

00:32:19.380 with

00:32:19.960 the material,

00:32:23.200 with

00:32:23.640 mere health.

00:32:26.320 Now,

00:32:26.760 you know,

00:32:27.040 one of the things

00:32:27.620 I loved about

00:32:28.400 being a clinician

00:32:29.240 is that

00:32:31.120 you had the opportunity

00:32:33.740 to let people

00:32:34.500 unfold in front of you.

00:32:35.940 And I mean something

00:32:37.440 very specific by that

00:32:38.840 because we are

00:32:39.660 language-oriented

00:32:42.180 creatures

00:32:42.680 and

00:32:43.060 it's a

00:32:44.340 Christian insistence,

00:32:46.980 Judeo-Christian insistence

00:32:48.320 that

00:32:48.580 our essence

00:32:49.900 is akin

00:32:50.680 to the word.

00:32:52.520 And what that means

00:32:53.560 is the word

00:32:54.180 is the highest

00:32:54.960 manifestation

00:32:55.640 of our spirit,

00:32:56.880 let's say.

00:32:57.720 Well,

00:32:58.020 I had people

00:32:58.760 in my practice

00:32:59.760 who

00:33:00.120 no one ever listened

00:33:01.720 to their whole life

00:33:02.760 and they needed

00:33:04.660 to unpack

00:33:05.320 themselves

00:33:05.860 for

00:33:06.360 a thousand

00:33:08.840 hours

00:33:09.380 before we could

00:33:10.120 even begin.

00:33:11.220 They had never

00:33:12.120 had anyone

00:33:12.840 in front of whom

00:33:15.400 they could lay

00:33:16.980 the cards

00:33:17.620 on the table.

00:33:19.180 And because of that,

00:33:20.580 they were

00:33:21.180 tangled

00:33:21.780 in ways

00:33:22.500 you can

00:33:22.940 hardly even

00:33:24.720 imagine

00:33:25.180 because we need

00:33:26.740 to articulate

00:33:27.460 ourselves

00:33:28.160 to become

00:33:29.640 articulated,

00:33:30.540 to become

00:33:30.880 articulate,

00:33:32.100 to become

00:33:32.580 flexible,

00:33:33.380 to be able

00:33:33.700 to dance

00:33:34.360 in the world,

00:33:34.940 to be able

00:33:35.220 to interact

00:33:35.740 with other

00:33:36.100 people,

00:33:36.420 to be able

00:33:36.700 to communicate.

00:33:37.940 And

00:33:38.180 that can't

00:33:39.640 happen

00:33:40.000 without being

00:33:40.640 listened to

00:33:41.320 and lots

00:33:42.260 of people

00:33:42.780 have never

00:33:43.820 been listened

00:33:44.440 to.

00:33:45.020 And so

00:33:45.400 one of the

00:33:47.000 things that

00:33:47.420 you do

00:33:47.740 as a clinician

00:33:48.360 is just

00:33:48.920 listen,

00:33:49.700 just.

00:33:50.280 It's not

00:33:50.720 so easy.

00:33:52.080 And one of

00:33:52.500 the things

00:33:52.840 that's so

00:33:53.200 fascinating

00:33:53.740 about this,

00:33:54.400 one of the

00:33:54.780 reasons I

00:33:55.140 love being

00:33:55.540 a clinician

00:33:56.020 is because

00:33:56.520 people are

00:33:57.080 insanely

00:33:57.820 interesting

00:33:58.540 once they

00:33:59.900 tell you

00:34:00.280 the truth.

00:34:01.900 Everyone's

00:34:02.420 a Dostoevsky

00:34:03.260 character.

00:34:05.060 They're

00:34:05.260 crazily

00:34:06.180 complex.

00:34:07.020 And this

00:34:07.840 is true

00:34:08.180 even for

00:34:08.620 people,

00:34:09.580 for so-called

00:34:10.220 simple people.

00:34:11.840 There's no

00:34:12.240 such thing

00:34:12.700 as a simple

00:34:13.220 human being.

00:34:14.020 There are

00:34:14.220 people who

00:34:15.220 are less

00:34:15.900 verbally

00:34:16.800 sophisticated

00:34:17.600 and less

00:34:19.100 cognitively

00:34:19.760 sophisticated

00:34:20.200 for that

00:34:20.640 matter,

00:34:20.900 but that

00:34:21.180 doesn't

00:34:21.460 mean

00:34:21.720 they're

00:34:22.320 without

00:34:22.640 their

00:34:22.940 depth.

00:34:24.480 And so

00:34:24.780 one of the

00:34:25.220 things a

00:34:25.600 good clinician

00:34:26.160 can do

00:34:26.680 is let

00:34:27.140 a person

00:34:28.040 unfold.

00:34:29.440 Encourage

00:34:29.900 them to

00:34:30.340 unfold.

00:34:31.420 You're in

00:34:32.080 loco parentis

00:34:33.040 when you're

00:34:33.400 doing that.

00:34:33.960 You're

00:34:34.100 offering to

00:34:39.220 the person

00:34:39.780 the opportunity

00:34:40.540 that under

00:34:41.220 optimal

00:34:41.640 conditions

00:34:42.240 would have

00:34:42.780 presented

00:34:43.800 itself to

00:34:44.460 them as

00:34:44.840 they

00:34:45.040 matured.

00:34:46.220 And that

00:34:46.900 does have

00:34:47.480 a healing

00:34:48.240 consequence,

00:34:49.260 an integrating

00:34:49.940 consequence.

00:34:51.780 Yeah,

00:34:52.180 there's a couple

00:34:53.540 points there

00:34:54.160 I wanted

00:34:54.600 to ask

00:34:54.880 you about

00:34:55.400 now that

00:34:57.040 we're on

00:34:57.240 the subject

00:34:57.560 of therapy.

00:34:59.200 But before

00:34:59.540 we do

00:34:59.820 that,

00:35:01.240 one other

00:35:01.880 question on

00:35:02.360 the mental

00:35:02.640 illness piece.

00:35:03.260 I wanted

00:35:03.480 to ask

00:35:03.760 you this.

00:35:04.180 This is

00:35:04.400 kind of a

00:35:04.840 deep cut

00:35:06.780 and most

00:35:08.120 of the audience

00:35:08.420 will have no

00:35:08.740 idea who I'm

00:35:09.120 talking about,

00:35:09.720 but I've

00:35:09.940 always just

00:35:10.320 wondered,

00:35:10.840 since we're

00:35:11.180 on the

00:35:11.360 topic of

00:35:11.780 mental

00:35:12.000 illness,

00:35:13.080 there's the

00:35:13.780 guy Thomas

00:35:14.340 Zoss who

00:35:15.160 wrote The

00:35:16.120 Myth of

00:35:16.380 Mental

00:35:16.580 Illness.

00:35:17.100 Yes.

00:35:17.500 And his

00:35:19.340 very unorthodox,

00:35:21.420 even heretical

00:35:22.460 these days

00:35:22.940 thinker,

00:35:23.500 and I disagree

00:35:24.080 with a lot

00:35:24.500 of what he

00:35:24.800 said,

00:35:26.540 and he was

00:35:26.780 a proponent

00:35:27.180 of euthanasia,

00:35:27.940 and I think

00:35:28.240 that's how

00:35:28.460 he died,

00:35:28.800 actually.

00:35:30.860 But his

00:35:31.660 basic idea

00:35:32.400 was that

00:35:32.700 mental illness,

00:35:33.600 as I understand

00:35:34.260 it anyways,

00:35:34.620 that mental

00:35:34.900 illness is

00:35:35.820 kind of a

00:35:36.180 metaphor that

00:35:37.400 we have

00:35:38.020 taken literally

00:35:38.800 and we

00:35:39.680 should not

00:35:40.040 have.

00:35:41.580 Because the

00:35:42.220 mind,

00:35:43.100 you know,

00:35:43.380 the brain is

00:35:44.020 one thing,

00:35:44.400 it's an organ,

00:35:45.040 you can

00:35:45.340 diagnose it.

00:35:45.960 The mind

00:35:47.620 is not

00:35:47.880 the brain

00:35:48.240 though,

00:35:48.680 and so you

00:35:49.180 can't diagnose

00:35:49.760 the mind,

00:35:50.240 you can't

00:35:50.440 diagnose ways

00:35:51.080 of thinking

00:35:51.520 in the ways

00:35:52.500 that you

00:35:52.740 can the

00:35:53.400 brain,

00:35:53.700 and so when

00:35:54.000 you call

00:35:54.640 a thought

00:35:55.240 sick,

00:35:56.700 you say

00:35:57.020 that the

00:35:57.540 way someone

00:35:57.860 is thinking

00:35:58.200 is sick,

00:35:58.980 it makes

00:35:59.880 sense

00:36:00.100 metaphorically,

00:36:00.780 but when

00:36:01.260 you try to

00:36:01.680 take it

00:36:01.900 literally,

00:36:02.260 it makes

00:36:02.480 less sense.

00:36:03.860 What's

00:36:04.220 your take

00:36:06.660 on,

00:36:07.140 I know you're

00:36:07.500 familiar with

00:36:07.900 him,

00:36:08.080 what's your

00:36:08.420 take on

00:36:08.720 that?

00:36:08.800 Oh yes,

00:36:09.480 oh yes,

00:36:10.020 well certainly

00:36:10.480 he was required

00:36:11.200 reading in my

00:36:11.900 clinical training

00:36:12.600 program.

00:36:13.040 It's not like

00:36:13.600 clinical psychologists

00:36:14.540 in particular

00:36:15.960 aware of

00:36:17.380 the potential

00:36:18.580 dangers of

00:36:19.280 therapy,

00:36:19.880 the incredible

00:36:21.420 complexity of

00:36:23.100 psychiatric or

00:36:24.520 psychological

00:36:25.020 diagnosis,

00:36:26.880 and the

00:36:28.020 possibility of

00:36:28.840 doing harm.

00:36:30.000 I mean,

00:36:30.320 that was a

00:36:30.860 major,

00:36:31.380 all three of

00:36:32.140 those things

00:36:32.540 were major

00:36:33.260 foci of our

00:36:34.120 training.

00:36:35.720 Are there

00:36:36.600 sick thoughts?

00:36:38.840 Well I would

00:36:39.320 say,

00:36:40.640 there are

00:36:42.880 circumstances

00:36:43.600 under which

00:36:44.320 there are

00:36:44.820 sick thoughts,

00:36:45.600 and they're

00:36:46.400 sort of

00:36:46.780 bottom-up.

00:36:47.480 So for

00:36:47.780 example,

00:36:48.420 if you

00:36:49.020 take too

00:36:49.640 much

00:36:49.900 amphetamine,

00:36:50.980 you'll

00:36:51.240 become

00:36:51.560 paranoid.

00:36:53.440 So,

00:36:53.820 and if

00:36:54.020 someone is

00:36:54.680 paranoid or

00:36:55.840 paranoid

00:36:56.440 schizophrenic and

00:36:57.340 you give

00:36:57.660 them amphetamines,

00:36:58.520 that makes

00:36:58.960 them worse.

00:37:00.140 And so,

00:37:00.860 you can

00:37:01.260 produce

00:37:01.860 pathologies

00:37:04.240 of thought.

00:37:05.560 Now those

00:37:05.960 would be,

00:37:06.620 imagine a

00:37:07.220 pathological

00:37:07.780 thought would

00:37:08.360 be the

00:37:08.680 kind that

00:37:09.320 if you

00:37:11.520 harbored or

00:37:12.100 acted out,

00:37:12.940 would cause

00:37:13.560 harm to

00:37:14.200 come to

00:37:14.620 you or

00:37:16.020 to the

00:37:16.280 people around

00:37:16.880 you,

00:37:17.180 which in

00:37:17.700 a way,

00:37:18.040 which would

00:37:18.460 in turn

00:37:19.380 reflect harm

00:37:20.200 upon you.

00:37:21.080 That's not

00:37:21.680 a bad way

00:37:22.280 of beginning

00:37:23.820 to understand

00:37:24.480 what pathological

00:37:26.040 or sick

00:37:27.120 thought might

00:37:27.800 be.

00:37:28.700 There are

00:37:29.340 situations

00:37:30.060 under which

00:37:31.740 that will

00:37:32.620 arise for

00:37:33.300 physiological

00:37:33.740 reasons.

00:37:35.040 Now that

00:37:35.420 doesn't mean

00:37:35.920 that Saz

00:37:36.520 was entirely

00:37:37.800 incorrect in

00:37:38.540 his criticism

00:37:39.220 because there

00:37:40.900 are the

00:37:43.960 mere fact

00:37:44.540 that pathological

00:37:46.240 thoughts can

00:37:47.140 arise from

00:37:48.540 an underlying

00:37:50.180 materialist

00:37:51.480 pathology

00:37:52.060 doesn't mean

00:37:52.680 that all

00:37:54.020 thoughts that

00:37:54.600 everyone disagrees

00:37:55.580 with are

00:37:55.960 pathological

00:37:56.680 or that all

00:37:57.640 pathological

00:37:58.260 thoughts are

00:37:58.880 caused by an

00:37:59.560 underlying

00:38:00.080 physiological

00:38:01.340 abnormality.

00:38:02.280 You can

00:38:04.540 understand why

00:38:05.220 this is so

00:38:05.860 complex because

00:38:07.120 we're often

00:38:09.600 working in

00:38:10.480 the domain

00:38:10.960 of mental

00:38:11.780 health at

00:38:12.460 the border

00:38:13.140 between the

00:38:13.880 physical and

00:38:14.540 the mental

00:38:16.140 or the

00:38:17.480 spiritual or

00:38:18.580 the psychological

00:38:19.340 and that's a

00:38:20.060 very tricky

00:38:20.580 border because

00:38:21.480 we're half

00:38:24.860 material so to

00:38:25.900 speak and

00:38:26.340 half spiritual

00:38:27.120 and those are

00:38:28.840 stacked on top

00:38:29.960 of each other

00:38:30.480 and interlaid

00:38:31.260 in a way that

00:38:31.940 we really

00:38:33.020 don't understand

00:38:33.980 and so

00:38:35.560 there's going

00:38:36.300 to be

00:38:36.600 murk as a

00:38:37.520 consequence of

00:38:38.280 that complexity.

00:38:40.040 I mean Thomas

00:38:40.760 says thought

00:38:41.860 that mental

00:38:43.200 illness was a

00:38:44.040 myth

00:38:44.380 partly because

00:38:46.940 well for the

00:38:48.480 reasons that

00:38:48.980 we've already

00:38:49.600 alluded to

00:38:52.320 he at some

00:38:54.600 fundamental level

00:38:55.400 he didn't

00:38:55.760 believe that the

00:38:56.480 illness metaphor

00:38:57.540 was a good

00:38:58.680 interpretive

00:39:00.140 rubric for

00:39:01.140 interpreting

00:39:02.280 psychological

00:39:04.980 function and

00:39:06.420 there's some

00:39:07.500 truth in that

00:39:08.200 there's some

00:39:09.060 truth in that

00:39:09.820 you know you

00:39:10.700 can see for

00:39:11.340 example in the

00:39:12.140 Soviet Union

00:39:12.940 and increasingly

00:39:15.120 in the West

00:39:15.880 the blurring of

00:39:17.940 the line between

00:39:18.880 mental illness

00:39:20.380 between idea

00:39:22.900 and mental

00:39:23.460 illness can lead

00:39:24.460 to such things

00:39:25.340 as the

00:39:25.860 transforming

00:39:28.280 ideological stance

00:39:30.240 into psychopathology

00:39:31.600 I mean the

00:39:32.800 Soviets would

00:39:33.400 throw you in

00:39:33.900 prison for

00:39:34.540 your political

00:39:35.640 disagreements and

00:39:36.820 categorize that as a

00:39:38.380 form of mental

00:39:38.980 illness and so

00:39:41.180 obviously there's

00:39:42.560 terrible danger on

00:39:43.520 that front.

00:39:44.060 like I've been

00:39:45.400 trying to delve

00:39:46.100 into this for a

00:39:46.920 long time

00:39:47.540 you know and so

00:39:48.780 I've concluded

00:39:49.980 that the

00:39:52.080 fundamental mystery

00:39:53.040 isn't one of

00:39:53.680 illness it's one

00:39:54.420 of health

00:39:54.980 that everyone

00:39:55.980 has a reason to

00:39:56.840 be anxious and

00:39:57.620 terrified and

00:39:58.340 nihilistic and

00:39:59.160 bitter and resentful

00:40:00.180 and angry and

00:40:01.200 all of those

00:40:01.800 things and

00:40:02.900 the pathway

00:40:04.460 through that

00:40:05.400 is the mystery

00:40:06.720 the golden

00:40:07.320 pathway through

00:40:08.140 that is the

00:40:09.380 mystery the

00:40:10.020 destination place

00:40:11.240 that enables you

00:40:12.160 to forego

00:40:14.560 the temptations

00:40:15.660 all of those

00:40:16.300 states offer

00:40:17.020 that's the mystery

00:40:17.880 and in the

00:40:18.800 fundamental analysis

00:40:19.880 that's a religious

00:40:20.760 issue right at

00:40:22.340 the bottom of

00:40:22.980 things but there

00:40:24.060 have been great

00:40:24.620 clinicians who

00:40:25.520 understood that

00:40:26.400 and I would say

00:40:27.320 that Jung

00:40:27.920 Carl Jung

00:40:28.500 is the foremost

00:40:29.140 among those

00:40:30.080 and I think

00:40:31.820 that brings us

00:40:32.560 well back

00:40:33.740 into this

00:40:35.820 issue of

00:40:36.220 therapy

00:40:36.540 and

00:40:38.060 my general

00:40:40.580 view of

00:40:41.100 therapy is

00:40:41.840 of course

00:40:42.420 I don't think

00:40:43.420 anybody would

00:40:43.800 say that it

00:40:44.580 has no place

00:40:45.340 or that nobody

00:40:45.880 should ever talk

00:40:46.500 to a therapist

00:40:47.020 I think it

00:40:48.340 does have a

00:40:48.760 place and

00:40:49.260 there are

00:40:49.720 people who

00:40:50.220 have benefited

00:40:50.920 from it

00:40:51.360 you know

00:40:51.780 there's no

00:40:52.140 denying that

00:40:52.680 I guess I

00:40:55.400 take a very

00:40:55.780 minimalist view

00:40:56.500 in many ways

00:40:57.700 on like

00:40:58.500 the circumstances

00:40:59.540 where I would

00:41:00.220 see therapy

00:41:00.680 as being

00:41:01.120 necessary or

00:41:02.400 productive

00:41:02.940 and also

00:41:03.780 the kinds

00:41:04.740 of therapists

00:41:05.300 that will

00:41:06.760 actually help

00:41:07.500 because when

00:41:08.780 I look at

00:41:09.360 you look at

00:41:10.560 it broadly

00:41:11.060 and obviously

00:41:13.200 correlation is

00:41:14.000 not causation

00:41:14.580 but there's

00:41:15.300 a lot of

00:41:15.560 correlation here

00:41:16.100 we look at

00:41:16.700 therapy is

00:41:18.000 more popular

00:41:18.800 now than

00:41:19.180 it's ever

00:41:19.440 been

00:41:19.720 no doubt

00:41:20.860 about it

00:41:21.220 more people

00:41:21.540 are going

00:41:21.860 to therapy

00:41:22.240 than ever

00:41:22.660 people are

00:41:23.540 more open

00:41:23.960 about it

00:41:24.300 than they've

00:41:24.560 ever been

00:41:25.020 certainly

00:41:26.060 and then

00:41:27.340 at the same

00:41:27.780 time

00:41:28.220 we find

00:41:29.120 that by

00:41:29.600 pretty much

00:41:29.980 every

00:41:30.340 measure

00:41:31.320 anything

00:41:32.720 that we

00:41:32.980 would call

00:41:33.260 mental health

00:41:33.800 is

00:41:34.040 deteriorating

00:41:34.840 and we're

00:41:36.980 even inventing

00:41:37.780 new forms

00:41:38.540 of mental

00:41:39.040 sickness

00:41:39.360 that the

00:41:40.120 world has

00:41:40.380 never seen

00:41:40.740 before

00:41:41.060 like

00:41:41.440 millions

00:41:42.600 of people

00:41:43.060 who now

00:41:43.440 apparently

00:41:43.760 are confused

00:41:44.340 about their

00:41:45.560 basic

00:41:45.920 you know

00:41:46.600 their gender

00:41:47.080 these basic

00:41:48.000 facts of

00:41:48.520 themselves

00:41:48.940 they're confused

00:41:50.060 about

00:41:50.340 so it seems

00:41:52.200 to me

00:41:52.420 that if

00:41:52.880 therapy

00:41:53.480 generally

00:41:54.660 was working

00:41:55.860 then we

00:41:56.660 should see

00:41:57.140 those markers

00:41:57.860 going in

00:41:58.320 the other

00:41:58.620 direction

00:41:59.100 instead

00:42:00.280 it seems

00:42:01.160 like it's

00:42:01.600 only getting

00:42:01.940 worse and

00:42:02.360 worse

00:42:02.700 and

00:42:03.840 yeah

00:42:04.180 yeah

00:42:05.200 well that's

00:42:05.900 I mean

00:42:06.500 that's

00:42:07.180 so

00:42:07.660 you know

00:42:08.420 let me

00:42:08.800 let me go

00:42:09.380 after that

00:42:10.080 like bluntly

00:42:11.940 to begin

00:42:12.440 with

00:42:12.760 it's a

00:42:13.740 diagnostic

00:42:14.280 issue

00:42:14.800 and it's

00:42:15.120 a very

00:42:15.420 complex

00:42:15.860 one

00:42:16.320 I mean

00:42:16.800 there are

00:42:17.200 multiple

00:42:17.640 reasons

00:42:18.180 why

00:42:18.640 general

00:42:19.860 mental

00:42:20.320 health

00:42:20.800 so to

00:42:21.320 speak

00:42:21.660 of the

00:42:22.880 population

00:42:23.440 might be

00:42:23.920 decreasing

00:42:24.360 so

00:42:25.180 let's

00:42:25.820 take ones

00:42:26.300 that aren't

00:42:26.980 psychological

00:42:27.540 at all

00:42:27.960 that have

00:42:28.240 nothing to

00:42:28.860 do with

00:42:29.200 therapy

00:42:29.620 because

00:42:30.340 you could

00:42:30.700 make a

00:42:31.040 case

00:42:31.300 that the

00:42:31.780 whole

00:42:32.060 issue

00:42:32.340 that we're

00:42:32.740 discussing

00:42:33.220 the

00:42:34.460 relationship

00:42:35.020 between

00:42:35.400 the

00:42:35.620 proliferation

00:42:36.220 of

00:42:36.460 therapeutic

00:42:36.840 types

00:42:37.320 and the

00:42:37.680 increase

00:42:38.080 in mental

00:42:38.500 health

00:42:38.780 as you

00:42:39.500 said

00:42:39.760 correlation

00:42:40.320 isn't

00:42:40.700 causality

00:42:41.220 and so

00:42:42.020 we could

00:42:42.480 do

00:42:42.800 on the

00:42:43.980 political

00:42:44.260 front

00:42:44.580 what I

00:42:44.900 would

00:42:45.020 do

00:42:45.200 diagnostically

00:42:46.040 let's

00:42:46.940 assume

00:42:47.240 to begin

00:42:47.680 with

00:42:47.920 that

00:42:48.160 people

00:42:48.500 are

00:42:49.320 more

00:42:49.860 unhappy

00:42:50.300 because

00:42:50.640 they're

00:42:50.920 actually

00:42:51.440 ill

00:42:52.060 okay

00:42:53.100 so now

00:42:53.540 let's

00:42:53.840 ask

00:42:54.120 well

00:42:54.300 in what

00:42:54.660 way

00:42:54.880 are

00:42:55.000 they

00:42:55.200 ill

00:42:55.600 well

00:42:56.240 how

00:42:56.420 about

00:42:56.680 40%

00:42:57.760 of

00:42:58.860 going

00:42:58.980 to

00:42:59.140 be

00:42:59.480 morbidly

00:43:00.440 obese

00:43:00.880 by the

00:43:01.340 year

00:43:01.520 2030

00:43:02.340 and how

00:43:04.180 about

00:43:04.400 that's

00:43:04.760 associated

00:43:05.300 with a

00:43:05.800 plethora

00:43:06.520 of

00:43:07.260 immunological

00:43:08.080 conditions

00:43:08.680 much higher

00:43:09.460 likelihood

00:43:09.880 of

00:43:10.300 depression

00:43:11.240 and so

00:43:12.060 forth

00:43:12.380 because

00:43:12.880 of

00:43:13.120 just

00:43:13.640 straight

00:43:14.200 the

00:43:15.000 absolutely

00:43:16.060 catastrophic

00:43:16.720 levels

00:43:17.420 of poor

00:43:17.960 physical

00:43:18.360 health

00:43:18.760 that that

00:43:19.520 indexes

00:43:20.180 and then

00:43:21.020 you could

00:43:21.300 add to

00:43:21.680 that

00:43:21.960 the

00:43:22.340 epidemic

00:43:23.200 of

00:43:23.500 diabetes

00:43:24.660 that

00:43:25.040 accompanies

00:43:25.600 it

00:43:25.800 and

00:43:26.920 God only

00:43:27.620 knows

00:43:28.140 what

00:43:28.740 contributing

00:43:29.980 factor

00:43:30.480 that is

00:43:30.960 the

00:43:31.160 food

00:43:32.300 pyramid

00:43:32.780 that

00:43:33.180 we were

00:43:34.220 fed

00:43:34.660 for so

00:43:35.280 long

00:43:35.620 that's

00:43:35.940 made

00:43:36.160 everyone

00:43:36.720 like

00:43:37.420 ill

00:43:37.820 beyond

00:43:38.280 comprehension

00:43:38.960 so that's

00:43:39.960 like a

00:43:40.460 major

00:43:41.140 problem

00:43:41.640 and

00:43:41.840 this

00:43:42.520 Chris Palmer

00:43:43.560 that I

00:43:43.980 mentioned

00:43:44.420 earlier

00:43:44.860 he's

00:43:45.780 starting a

00:43:46.200 new

00:43:46.360 clinic

00:43:46.720 at

00:43:46.980 McLean

00:43:47.360 Hospital

00:43:47.800 to

00:43:48.140 treat

00:43:48.640 endogenous

00:43:50.060 depression

00:43:50.700 so that's

00:43:51.800 the kind

00:43:52.300 of depression

00:43:52.760 that doesn't

00:43:53.300 seem to

00:43:53.660 have an

00:43:54.040 immediately

00:43:54.500 precipitating

00:43:55.480 cause

00:43:56.080 right

00:43:56.700 it looks

00:43:57.360 more

00:43:57.600 physical

00:43:58.100 in its

00:43:58.580 origin

00:43:59.040 let's

00:43:59.400 say

00:43:59.660 schizophrenia

00:44:01.400 and manic

00:44:02.100 depressive

00:44:02.560 disorder

00:44:03.120 which is

00:44:03.640 also

00:44:04.620 like

00:44:05.400 well

00:44:06.360 wildly

00:44:07.040 oscillating

00:44:08.800 mood

00:44:09.120 that's

00:44:09.380 always

00:44:09.740 looked

00:44:10.020 to me

00:44:10.360 and

00:44:10.540 I would

00:44:11.020 say

00:44:11.180 to

00:44:11.320 clinicians

00:44:11.700 in general

00:44:12.380 like

00:44:13.100 something

00:44:13.520 with a

00:44:13.980 deep

00:44:14.240 but indeterminate

00:44:16.140 physiological

00:44:16.760 cause

00:44:17.220 he's

00:44:17.820 treating

00:44:18.040 all of

00:44:18.360 them

00:44:18.500 with

00:44:18.680 diet

00:44:19.180 so

00:44:20.740 God

00:44:21.560 only

00:44:21.820 knows

00:44:22.120 what's

00:44:22.440 going to

00:44:22.740 emerge

00:44:23.080 on that

00:44:23.520 front

00:44:24.060 cause

00:44:24.380 he

00:44:24.520 thinks

00:44:24.800 they're

00:44:25.020 metabolic

00:44:25.440 disorders

00:44:26.000 I just

00:44:26.440 released

00:44:26.820 a podcast

00:44:27.280 with him

00:44:27.900 and he's

00:44:28.360 not the

00:44:28.720 only one

00:44:29.180 there are

00:44:29.680 more

00:44:29.900 psychiatrists

00:44:30.640 at

00:44:30.780 McLean's

00:44:31.400 which is

00:44:32.280 the premier

00:44:32.780 psychiatric

00:44:33.700 hospital

00:44:34.160 in the

00:44:34.920 United

00:44:35.140 States

00:44:35.600 there are

00:44:35.920 more

00:44:36.200 and more

00:44:36.820 psychiatrists

00:44:37.540 who are

00:44:37.760 investigating

00:44:38.260 that

00:44:38.680 so that's

00:44:39.960 one possibility

00:44:40.700 another possibility

00:44:41.600 is the sort

00:44:42.120 of thing

00:44:42.400 that people

00:44:43.180 like Jonathan

00:44:43.760 Hyde

00:44:44.060 have been

00:44:44.620 pointing

00:44:44.940 to

00:44:45.240 we have

00:44:45.900 no idea

00:44:46.820 what the

00:44:47.440 smartphone

00:44:48.100 is doing

00:44:49.320 to young

00:44:49.780 people

00:44:50.200 I mean

00:44:51.220 first of

00:44:52.300 all

00:44:52.560 it's

00:44:53.500 definitely

00:44:54.200 interfering

00:44:54.980 with their

00:44:55.760 play

00:44:56.500 like

00:44:57.620 young

00:44:58.320 children

00:44:58.860 socialize

00:45:00.080 with play

00:45:01.240 and

00:45:02.280 regardless

00:45:03.000 of the

00:45:03.520 content

00:45:04.020 on a

00:45:04.640 smartphone

00:45:05.260 the mere

00:45:06.400 fact

00:45:06.880 of the

00:45:07.280 existence

00:45:07.920 of those

00:45:08.800 incredibly

00:45:10.020 compelling

00:45:10.560 electronic

00:45:11.140 gadgets

00:45:11.720 interferes

00:45:12.980 with

00:45:13.340 social

00:45:14.300 interaction

00:45:14.980 in ways

00:45:16.020 that have

00:45:16.460 consequences

00:45:17.120 we

00:45:17.940 we won't

00:45:19.660 understand

00:45:20.300 until

00:45:20.820 that whole

00:45:21.920 problem

00:45:22.340 morphs

00:45:22.820 into

00:45:23.000 something

00:45:23.540 that's

00:45:25.120 as unlike

00:45:25.740 smartphones

00:45:26.520 as

00:45:26.800 smartphones

00:45:27.280 are

00:45:27.640 unlike

00:45:28.080 tv

00:45:28.540 and we're

00:45:29.360 probably

00:45:29.740 like right

00:45:30.180 on the

00:45:30.480 threshold

00:45:30.860 of that

00:45:31.420 so there's

00:45:32.520 that

00:45:33.020 and then

00:45:33.660 there's

00:45:33.900 the content

00:45:34.560 of the

00:45:35.060 smartphones

00:45:35.500 we have

00:45:35.960 no idea

00:45:36.800 what

00:45:37.220 you know

00:45:38.440 on demand

00:45:39.880 pornography

00:45:40.720 has done

00:45:41.560 to the

00:45:42.380 mental health

00:45:42.980 of young

00:45:43.440 men and

00:45:43.800 young women

00:45:44.340 but you

00:45:45.060 can be

00:45:45.380 virtually

00:45:45.740 certain

00:45:46.260 that it's

00:45:47.880 terrible

00:45:48.680 the clinical

00:45:49.640 evidence

00:45:50.060 certainly

00:45:50.420 suggests

00:45:50.980 so

00:45:51.240 so

00:45:52.080 so I'm

00:45:53.060 so I'm

00:45:53.920 walking you

00:45:54.500 through

00:45:54.720 let's say

00:45:55.280 the

00:45:55.500 the equivalent

00:45:56.340 of a

00:45:56.720 diagnosis

00:45:57.260 on the

00:45:57.800 political

00:45:58.120 and economic

00:45:58.720 front

00:45:59.000 there are

00:45:59.840 a lot

00:46:00.360 of potential

00:46:01.040 causes

00:46:01.600 of the

00:46:02.500 apparent

00:46:03.060 increase

00:46:04.880 especially

00:46:05.420 in depression

00:46:06.000 and anxiety

00:46:06.520 now it's

00:46:07.300 also more

00:46:08.060 pronounced

00:46:08.660 by the way

00:46:09.360 on the

00:46:10.120 female side

00:46:11.200 so

00:46:12.380 all of

00:46:13.300 the

00:46:13.640 epidemiological

00:46:14.700 data

00:46:15.180 suggests

00:46:15.700 that women

00:46:16.220 have becoming

00:46:17.000 reliably

00:46:17.900 less happy

00:46:18.840 since the

00:46:19.420 early

00:46:19.620 1960s

00:46:20.700 and that's

00:46:21.800 even more

00:46:22.400 it's more

00:46:23.760 marked

00:46:24.280 on the

00:46:25.360 female side

00:46:26.380 than on

00:46:27.080 the male

00:46:27.420 side

00:46:27.800 and

00:46:28.020 Jonathan

00:46:28.800 Haidt

00:46:29.260 again

00:46:29.640 has showed

00:46:30.600 that

00:46:30.980 the rise

00:46:32.220 of

00:46:32.520 progressive

00:46:33.700 hedonistic

00:46:34.940 power

00:46:35.480 centered

00:46:36.080 radical

00:46:38.720 political

00:46:39.280 beliefs

00:46:39.860 especially

00:46:40.900 among young

00:46:41.520 women

00:46:41.800 seem to be

00:46:42.680 radically

00:46:43.240 contributing

00:46:43.820 to their

00:46:44.440 decrease

00:46:45.140 in mental

00:46:45.600 health

00:46:45.940 so that's

00:46:46.980 a lot

00:46:47.300 of possible

00:46:47.920 factors

00:46:48.520 now

00:46:48.860 I'm now

00:46:50.740 I'll throw

00:46:51.280 some evidence

00:46:52.560 your way

00:46:54.360 let's say

00:46:54.840 with regards

00:46:55.380 to the claim

00:46:55.940 that you're

00:46:56.280 making

00:46:56.600 so this

00:46:57.480 is what

00:46:57.780 I've

00:46:58.040 I think

00:46:58.700 I'm seeing

00:46:59.280 happening

00:46:59.740 on the

00:47:00.340 therapeutic

00:47:00.780 side

00:47:01.260 so

00:47:01.540 you pointed

00:47:04.880 to the fact

00:47:05.480 that the dividing

00:47:06.180 line between

00:47:06.740 a therapist

00:47:07.460 and a

00:47:09.100 philosopher

00:47:09.540 is

00:47:09.980 and the

00:47:11.100 great

00:47:11.480 clinicians

00:47:14.360 whose works

00:47:15.420 I've

00:47:15.720 studied

00:47:16.140 were

00:47:17.900 remarkable

00:47:18.900 philosophers

00:47:19.540 and

00:47:19.980 I suppose

00:47:21.660 there's

00:47:21.920 about

00:47:22.160 10

00:47:22.560 that have

00:47:22.920 deeply

00:47:23.280 influenced

00:47:23.820 me

00:47:24.080 and

00:47:24.280 some

00:47:25.000 of

00:47:25.140 them

00:47:25.300 were

00:47:25.580 psychoanalytic

00:47:26.480 some

00:47:26.780 of them

00:47:27.040 were

00:47:27.380 so they

00:47:28.640 were

00:47:28.760 more

00:47:29.080 concerned

00:47:29.460 with

00:47:29.660 dreams

00:47:30.020 and

00:47:30.220 imagination

00:47:30.880 let's

00:47:31.340 say

00:47:31.580 and

00:47:32.240 the

00:47:32.620 foundational

00:47:33.420 structures

00:47:34.320 of beliefs

00:47:34.800 some of

00:47:35.180 them

00:47:35.320 were

00:47:35.480 more

00:47:35.780 oriented

00:47:36.220 towards

00:47:36.840 cognition

00:47:38.760 cognitive

00:47:39.540 therapists

00:47:40.260 some of

00:47:40.640 them

00:47:40.760 were

00:47:40.940 much

00:47:41.520 more

00:47:41.760 inclined

00:47:42.120 to

00:47:42.300 use

00:47:42.480 behavioral

00:47:42.960 approaches

00:47:43.360 some of

00:47:43.700 them

00:47:43.800 were

00:47:43.920 humanistic

00:47:44.620 some of

00:47:46.560 them

00:47:46.660 were

00:47:46.780 phenomenologists

00:47:47.560 there was

00:47:47.880 a variety

00:47:48.340 of

00:47:48.620 schools

00:47:49.480 of

00:47:50.020 therapeutic

00:47:50.880 inquiry

00:47:51.380 and I

00:47:52.080 learned a

00:47:52.660 lot

00:47:53.000 from

00:47:53.380 the

00:47:53.880 masters

00:47:54.360 of each

00:47:54.880 of those

00:47:55.240 domains

00:47:55.740 now what

00:47:56.480 I think

00:47:56.880 has

00:47:57.020 happened

00:47:57.420 Matt

00:47:58.040 is that

00:47:58.540 over

00:47:59.680 about

00:47:59.980 100

00:48:00.300 years

00:48:00.920 the

00:48:02.120 therapeutic

00:48:03.760 pioneers

00:48:04.840 amassed

00:48:07.540 a huge

00:48:08.160 storehouse

00:48:08.900 of

00:48:09.200 clinical

00:48:09.740 value

00:48:10.320 and

00:48:11.760 established

00:48:13.540 a

00:48:13.920 domain

00:48:15.000 of

00:48:15.320 appropriate

00:48:16.080 endeavor

00:48:16.760 for

00:48:17.600 the

00:48:18.600 clinical

00:48:18.880 enterprise

00:48:19.520 but

00:48:20.340 what's

00:48:20.680 happened

00:48:21.060 to that

00:48:22.140 enterprise

00:48:22.540 is the

00:48:22.940 same

00:48:23.140 thing

00:48:23.360 that's

00:48:23.600 happened

00:48:23.780 to

00:48:23.920 universities

00:48:24.440 is that

00:48:25.020 once

00:48:26.100 that

00:48:26.360 storehouse

00:48:27.000 of

00:48:27.200 value

00:48:27.520 was

00:48:27.760 established

00:48:28.580 the

00:48:29.900 second

00:48:30.340 graders

00:48:30.740 and the

00:48:31.120 parasites

00:48:31.560 moved

00:48:32.180 in

00:48:32.580 to

00:48:33.540 monetize

00:48:35.120 it

00:48:35.360 and

00:48:36.040 it's

00:48:36.280 just

00:48:36.580 morphed

00:48:37.820 into

00:48:38.020 something

00:48:38.460 that bears

00:48:39.060 virtually

00:48:39.560 no

00:48:39.820 resemblance

00:48:40.460 to

00:48:40.720 its

00:48:40.920 original

00:48:41.480 conceptualization

00:48:43.320 and so

00:48:45.020 you know

00:48:46.680 maybe

00:48:46.960 one person

00:48:47.800 in

00:48:48.120 100

00:48:50.260 has

00:48:51.540 what it

00:48:52.360 takes

00:48:52.660 to be

00:48:53.180 a

00:48:54.100 credible

00:48:54.680 strategic

00:48:56.080 consultant

00:48:57.340 and

00:48:57.700 therapist

00:48:58.100 or maybe

00:48:59.180 it's

00:48:59.360 one person

00:48:59.840 in

00:49:00.020 1000

00:49:00.460 and

00:49:02.840 but

00:49:03.300 when it's

00:49:03.780 distributed

00:49:04.500 broadly

00:49:06.540 as an

00:49:07.120 endeavor

00:49:07.540 I

00:49:07.800 certainly

00:49:08.200 see

00:49:08.460 this

00:49:08.720 happen

00:49:09.420 in the

00:49:10.140 domain

00:49:10.480 of

00:49:10.680 social

00:49:11.060 work

00:49:11.360 for

00:49:11.520 example

00:49:11.860 which

00:49:12.100 is

00:49:12.220 just

00:49:12.400 a

00:49:12.580 complete

00:49:13.160 bloody

00:49:13.680 catastrophe

00:49:14.420 I mean

00:49:15.180 the

00:49:15.340 social

00:49:15.640 work

00:49:15.920 departments

00:49:16.500 reliably

00:49:17.600 attract

00:49:18.180 the

00:49:18.480 worst

00:49:19.060 students

00:49:19.840 foggy

00:49:21.100 minded

00:49:21.520 unintelligent

00:49:23.780 unable

00:49:25.620 to

00:49:25.920 distinguish

00:49:26.360 between

00:49:27.040 like

00:49:27.440 a

00:49:27.640 toxic

00:49:28.080 compassion

00:49:28.760 and

00:49:29.220 a

00:49:29.380 true

00:49:29.680 wisdom

00:49:30.180 complete

00:49:31.220 bloody

00:49:31.580 catastrophe

00:49:32.280 and

00:49:33.100 then

00:49:33.420 therapy

00:49:34.660 is

00:49:35.000 distributed

00:49:35.600 everywhere

00:49:36.600 it's

00:49:37.260 rife

00:49:37.940 in the

00:49:38.180 education

00:49:38.680 systems

00:49:39.200 it's

00:49:39.460 the

00:49:39.640 answer

00:49:40.060 to

00:49:40.280 all

00:49:40.560 problems

00:49:41.140 well

00:49:41.480 you know

00:49:43.040 the

00:49:43.300 enterprise

00:49:44.260 has

00:49:44.520 degenerated

00:49:45.200 just like

00:49:45.620 the

00:49:45.780 universities

00:49:46.260 have

00:49:46.560 degenerated

00:49:47.220 same

00:49:47.660 reason

00:49:48.200 even

00:49:48.600 it's

00:49:50.000 something

00:49:50.300 like

00:49:50.700 once

00:49:51.700 you

00:49:51.900 store

00:49:52.180 up

00:49:52.380 enough

00:49:52.680 value

00:49:53.240 then

00:49:54.800 you

00:49:57.080 lay

00:49:57.400 yourself

00:49:57.880 open

00:49:58.200 to

00:49:58.420 invasion

00:49:58.940 something

00:49:59.740 like

00:50:00.040 that

00:50:00.380 and

00:50:02.120 as

00:50:02.260 part

00:50:02.480 of

00:50:02.560 that

00:50:02.680 deterioration

00:50:03.340 I

00:50:03.520 mean

00:50:03.640 how

00:50:04.060 many

00:50:04.420 you

00:50:05.520 mentioned

00:50:05.860 smartphones

00:50:06.520 which

00:50:07.560 I

00:50:07.940 agree

00:50:08.240 I

00:50:08.440 think

00:50:08.600 that

00:50:08.740 the

00:50:08.940 effect

00:50:09.320 of

00:50:09.480 smartphones

00:50:09.840 on

00:50:10.200 kids

00:50:10.400 especially

00:50:10.800 is

00:50:12.600 it's

00:50:12.980 a

00:50:13.080 catastrophe

00:50:13.500 that

00:50:13.780 we

00:50:13.900 can't

00:50:14.120 even

00:50:14.260 wrap

00:50:14.460 our

00:50:14.560 heads

00:50:14.700 around

00:50:14.980 because

00:50:15.240 it's

00:50:15.580 it's

00:50:16.080 there's

00:50:18.280 nothing

00:50:18.420 to compare

00:50:18.820 it to

00:50:19.060 in human

00:50:19.340 history

00:50:19.700 exactly

00:50:20.180 it's

00:50:21.300 we

00:50:21.820 don't

00:50:21.920 have

00:50:22.360 any

00:50:22.500 other

00:50:22.680 examples

00:50:23.100 of

00:50:23.520 generations

00:50:24.700 of

00:50:25.040 people

00:50:25.400 who

00:50:25.840 centered

00:50:26.240 their

00:50:26.460 entire

00:50:26.820 lives

00:50:27.260 around

00:50:27.540 a

00:50:27.700 little

00:50:27.800 box

00:50:28.220 to the

00:50:29.380 extent

00:50:29.620 that

00:50:29.760 people

00:50:29.920 do

00:50:30.120 with

00:50:30.340 phones

00:50:30.900 so

00:50:31.120 all

00:50:31.640 those

00:50:31.840 things

00:50:32.240 pornography

00:50:32.980 but

00:50:34.240 how

00:50:34.500 many

00:50:34.860 therapists

00:50:35.980 are

00:50:36.760 likely

00:50:37.200 to

00:50:37.440 actually

00:50:37.780 say

00:50:38.260 to

00:50:38.820 a

00:50:40.320 patient

00:50:40.600 who

00:50:40.760 comes

00:50:41.000 in

00:50:41.360 who's

00:50:42.300 depressed

00:50:43.000 or

00:50:43.160 anxious

00:50:43.460 how many

00:50:43.940 of them

00:50:44.060 are likely

00:50:44.300 to say

00:50:44.580 well look

00:50:44.900 put the

00:50:45.360 smartphone

00:50:45.680 down

00:50:45.960 stop

00:50:46.260 watching

00:50:46.520 pornography

00:50:47.060 you're

00:50:48.100 overweight

00:50:48.560 start

00:50:49.680 eating

00:50:50.140 healthy

00:50:50.460 get some

00:50:50.880 exercise

00:50:51.280 get some

00:50:51.760 sun

00:50:52.040 go for

00:50:52.380 a jog

00:50:52.740 you will

00:50:55.140 say that

00:50:55.580 but how

00:50:56.620 many are

00:50:56.940 willing to

00:50:57.340 say that

00:50:57.620 well I

00:50:58.300 would say

00:50:58.760 generally

00:50:59.260 speaking

00:50:59.900 saying that

00:51:01.560 is not

00:51:02.020 helpful

00:51:02.540 now let

00:51:04.380 me tell

00:51:04.680 let me

00:51:05.080 explain

00:51:05.500 why

00:51:05.880 so

00:51:06.700 if you

00:51:07.880 go see

00:51:08.260 a physician

00:51:08.760 a physician

00:51:09.300 is very

00:51:09.780 likely

00:51:10.100 or was

00:51:11.160 at least

00:51:11.580 to say

00:51:12.400 those sorts

00:51:12.960 of things

00:51:13.340 if you're

00:51:13.740 obese

00:51:14.160 you know

00:51:14.560 lose some

00:51:15.040 weight

00:51:15.220 the problem

00:51:16.140 with that

00:51:16.500 is people

00:51:16.940 don't

00:51:17.600 and the

00:51:18.940 reason for

00:51:19.380 that is

00:51:19.740 that it's

00:51:20.720 well because

00:51:21.280 they're already

00:51:21.940 set in

00:51:22.600 their

00:51:22.780 habits

00:51:23.300 and

00:51:26.360 furthermore

00:51:27.820 people don't

00:51:29.340 really like

00:51:29.860 advice

00:51:30.460 in fact

00:51:31.580 if you

00:51:32.240 advise

00:51:32.880 someone

00:51:33.260 of

00:51:33.480 something

00:51:33.900 they're

00:51:35.440 they have

00:51:36.360 a proclivity

00:51:37.020 to do

00:51:37.480 the opposite

00:51:38.080 just to

00:51:39.260 maintain a

00:51:39.900 certain degree

00:51:40.460 of autonomy

00:51:41.040 so one of

00:51:42.660 the things

00:51:43.040 that you

00:51:43.360 learn

00:51:43.740 as a

00:51:44.500 clinician

00:51:44.900 is that

00:51:45.600 it's

00:51:48.660 much

00:51:49.060 the kind

00:51:50.600 of

00:51:50.860 realization

00:51:51.520 that will

00:51:52.140 produce

00:51:52.660 conceptual

00:51:53.640 and behavioral

00:51:54.260 change

00:51:54.840 and

00:51:55.080 hypothetically

00:51:56.280 lead to

00:51:56.840 increased

00:51:57.360 health

00:51:58.200 are the

00:52:00.340 realizations

00:52:00.980 that people

00:52:01.520 come to

00:52:02.040 on their

00:52:02.640 own

00:52:02.880 and

00:52:04.340 you can

00:52:05.300 increase

00:52:06.720 the probability

00:52:07.480 that people

00:52:08.040 will come

00:52:08.440 to those

00:52:08.800 realizations

00:52:09.400 by just

00:52:09.940 listening to

00:52:10.440 them

00:52:10.640 so for

00:52:11.460 example

00:52:11.800 if you

00:52:12.160 came

00:52:12.440 to me

00:52:12.980 let's

00:52:13.740 say you

00:52:14.120 were having

00:52:14.820 trouble

00:52:15.140 in your

00:52:15.480 marriage

00:52:15.860 well the

00:52:17.260 first thing

00:52:17.660 I do

00:52:18.040 is say

00:52:18.500 well

00:52:18.840 you know

00:52:20.120 what

00:52:21.480 trouble

00:52:21.980 and maybe

00:52:23.980 you'd tell

00:52:24.400 me

00:52:24.780 50 stories

00:52:27.860 about

00:52:28.320 fights

00:52:30.120 you

00:52:30.380 you've

00:52:31.080 had

00:52:31.320 or are

00:52:31.680 having

00:52:32.020 with your

00:52:32.420 wife

00:52:32.760 and

00:52:33.780 in doing

00:52:35.020 so

00:52:35.500 you would

00:52:36.860 start to

00:52:37.400 see

00:52:37.880 at least

00:52:39.240 in

00:52:40.520 in

00:52:41.520 potential

00:52:42.000 what it

00:52:42.700 might be

00:52:43.700 that

00:52:44.000 constitutes

00:52:46.160 the problem

00:52:46.760 and also

00:52:47.200 what you

00:52:47.640 might be

00:52:48.140 contributing

00:52:48.520 to it

00:52:49.020 and then

00:52:49.780 after that

00:52:50.480 you might

00:52:50.960 start thinking

00:52:51.660 about

00:52:52.100 what it

00:52:54.160 is that

00:52:54.520 you could

00:52:54.860 do to

00:52:55.200 change

00:52:55.580 that

00:52:55.820 and if

00:52:56.160 you came

00:52:56.740 to those

00:52:57.260 conclusions

00:52:58.340 yourself

00:52:59.060 with all

00:52:59.780 the micro

00:53:00.380 steps

00:53:00.840 necessary

00:53:01.540 to understand

00:53:02.280 why that

00:53:02.680 conclusion

00:53:03.080 was necessary

00:53:03.940 and in

00:53:04.800 some ways

00:53:05.360 incontrovertible

00:53:06.560 you'd be

00:53:07.160 way more

00:53:07.680 likely to

00:53:08.200 initiate

00:53:08.640 the changes

00:53:09.300 and this

00:53:10.640 is partly

00:53:11.100 why therapy

00:53:11.700 is somewhat

00:53:12.760 of a time

00:53:13.420 consuming

00:53:13.800 process

00:53:14.360 advice

00:53:15.480 just doesn't

00:53:16.140 work

00:53:16.600 now

00:53:18.640 there were

00:53:20.300 times in

00:53:20.780 my therapeutic

00:53:21.320 practice

00:53:21.840 where

00:53:22.240 for the

00:53:23.820 sake of

00:53:24.380 speed

00:53:26.180 and maybe

00:53:27.020 in relatively

00:53:28.040 dire circumstances

00:53:29.080 I would offer

00:53:29.820 my clients

00:53:31.040 advice

00:53:31.460 but

00:53:31.760 a little

00:53:33.120 of that

00:53:33.400 goes a

00:53:33.780 very long

00:53:34.200 way

00:53:34.420 and it's

00:53:34.660 also partly

00:53:35.280 because

00:53:35.580 you don't

00:53:36.140 want to

00:53:36.480 steal

00:53:36.820 someone's

00:53:37.500 destiny

00:53:37.920 so imagine

00:53:38.640 you came

00:53:39.920 to me

00:53:40.280 and you

00:53:41.340 were having

00:53:41.700 some trouble

00:53:42.180 with your

00:53:42.620 wife

00:53:42.940 let's say

00:53:43.880 or your

00:53:44.400 career

00:53:44.840 let's say

00:53:45.480 your career

00:53:45.940 it makes

00:53:46.260 it a little

00:53:46.460 less personal

00:53:47.140 and I

00:53:48.140 having listened

00:53:49.400 to many

00:53:50.020 people

00:53:50.580 who had

00:53:51.360 trouble

00:53:51.620 with their

00:53:52.020 career

00:53:52.300 I offered

00:53:53.140 you a

00:53:53.540 solution

00:53:54.060 to a

00:53:54.580 problem

00:53:54.920 that you

00:53:55.280 had

00:53:55.560 with your

00:53:55.940 boss

00:53:56.340 and you

00:53:56.960 went and

00:53:57.240 implemented

00:53:57.680 it

00:53:57.980 and it

00:53:58.540 worked

00:53:59.000 and you

00:54:00.000 might say

00:54:00.500 well hooray

00:54:01.980 for that

00:54:02.460 but I

00:54:02.980 would say

00:54:03.460 no not

00:54:04.140 hooray

00:54:04.420 for that

00:54:04.800 because

00:54:05.120 I just

00:54:06.320 had success

00:54:07.040 in your

00:54:07.680 life

00:54:08.100 and that

00:54:09.160 meant I

00:54:09.580 robbed

00:54:10.080 you

00:54:10.420 I robbed

00:54:12.260 you

00:54:12.520 because that

00:54:13.600 was your

00:54:14.220 problem

00:54:14.800 not mine

00:54:16.080 and this

00:54:17.200 is something

00:54:17.520 to know

00:54:17.920 even with

00:54:18.380 children

00:54:18.720 or with

00:54:19.200 people that

00:54:19.640 you love

00:54:20.060 is that

00:54:20.340 people have

00:54:20.840 their destiny

00:54:21.540 you know

00:54:23.000 and that

00:54:24.240 destiny

00:54:24.720 you can be

00:54:26.380 there as

00:54:27.020 a

00:54:27.320 you can be

00:54:29.820 there

00:54:30.180 and walk

00:54:31.480 with someone

00:54:32.080 as they

00:54:32.720 traverse the

00:54:34.000 route of

00:54:34.320 their destiny

00:54:34.920 but it's

00:54:35.400 not up to

00:54:35.920 you to

00:54:36.380 to fix

00:54:38.920 it

00:54:39.180 you can't

00:54:40.160 people won't

00:54:40.860 let you

00:54:41.180 anyway

00:54:41.480 it's like

00:54:41.780 it just

00:54:42.060 doesn't

00:54:42.360 work

00:54:42.640 and

00:54:42.820 behavioral

00:54:43.420 psychologists

00:54:44.020 really do

00:54:44.740 this

00:54:45.060 and it's

00:54:45.580 one of the

00:54:45.900 things I

00:54:46.260 admired about

00:54:46.840 the behavioral

00:54:47.380 tradition

00:54:47.900 as behaviors

00:54:48.560 learned very

00:54:49.180 early that

00:54:49.780 it was

00:54:51.960 very very

00:54:52.980 a very

00:54:54.740 difficult matter

00:54:55.420 to set the

00:54:56.200 circumstances up

00:54:57.200 properly so

00:54:58.000 that people

00:54:58.520 would in

00:54:59.500 fact implement

00:55:00.300 changes

00:55:00.940 even in

00:55:01.780 small things

00:55:02.540 so

00:55:04.100 what you're

00:55:05.800 doing when

00:55:06.240 you're

00:55:07.460 practicing

00:55:08.020 therapy

00:55:08.480 properly

00:55:08.960 is you're

00:55:09.400 allowing

00:55:09.820 people to

00:55:10.880 have the

00:55:11.520 time

00:55:12.720 necessary

00:55:13.680 to speak

00:55:15.080 because in

00:55:16.220 speaking they

00:55:17.020 think

00:55:17.840 and if they

00:55:18.960 think they

00:55:19.400 actually

00:55:19.820 often

00:55:20.860 figure out

00:55:22.740 what the

00:55:23.140 hell's wrong

00:55:23.720 with them

00:55:24.120 and what to

00:55:24.620 do about

00:55:25.060 it but

00:55:25.400 they need

00:55:25.840 that time

00:55:26.440 especially if

00:55:27.120 they're in

00:55:27.460 dire circumstances

00:55:28.460 and often

00:55:29.420 people just

00:55:29.920 don't have

00:55:30.400 that

00:55:30.700 now you

00:55:31.660 know I

00:55:31.900 still have

00:55:32.400 some qualms

00:55:33.260 in some

00:55:33.680 ways about

00:55:34.140 the therapeutic

00:55:34.680 relationship

00:55:35.340 because you

00:55:37.180 would hope

00:55:37.740 to some

00:55:38.540 degree that

00:55:39.060 people would

00:55:39.580 get that

00:55:40.120 opportunity for

00:55:41.020 communication

00:55:41.700 by from

00:55:43.160 their friends

00:55:43.740 and from

00:55:44.140 people they

00:55:44.660 love maybe

00:55:45.540 from their

00:55:46.040 priest in

00:55:47.220 in a

00:55:48.100 functional

00:55:48.520 religious

00:55:49.020 society and

00:55:50.600 then you

00:55:50.900 could ask

00:55:51.300 well can

00:55:51.860 that be

00:55:52.400 substituted

00:55:53.260 for by a

00:55:54.120 paid

00:55:54.400 relationship

00:55:55.080 and I

00:55:55.500 would say

00:55:55.820 well there's

00:55:56.560 obviously

00:55:57.040 some danger

00:55:59.720 of conflict

00:56:00.420 of interest

00:56:01.060 there but

00:56:02.520 but you

00:56:05.160 know you

00:56:06.020 can do good

00:56:06.640 things imperfectly

00:56:07.920 as well and

00:56:08.720 it was certainly

00:56:10.380 the case that

00:56:11.120 many of the

00:56:11.660 people who

00:56:12.100 came to

00:56:12.500 talk to me

00:56:13.140 had no one

00:56:14.540 else to

00:56:14.920 talk to

00:56:15.360 ever and

00:56:17.640 that talking

00:56:18.240 was extremely

00:56:19.120 good for

00:56:19.760 them

00:56:20.020 let me ask

00:56:21.800 you about

00:56:22.020 that because

00:56:22.480 that's another

00:56:23.660 question I

00:56:25.780 have as you

00:56:27.400 said most

00:56:27.780 people don't

00:56:28.140 have or many

00:56:29.040 people don't

00:56:29.480 have anyone

00:56:30.040 to talk

00:56:30.420 to and

00:56:31.440 there's

00:56:33.960 probably a

00:56:34.340 lot of

00:56:34.540 truth in

00:56:34.900 that of

00:56:35.220 course people

00:56:37.000 tend to do

00:56:37.440 a lot of

00:56:37.740 talking out

00:56:38.560 to the

00:56:38.820 world on

00:56:39.340 social media

00:56:39.940 which is

00:56:41.280 not a

00:56:41.660 substitute

00:56:41.960 for actual

00:56:43.000 human

00:56:43.260 connection

00:56:43.640 but I

00:56:46.180 also worry

00:56:46.760 that therapy

00:56:49.560 can for

00:56:51.180 some people

00:56:51.960 feed this

00:56:53.360 kind of

00:56:53.680 narcissistic

00:56:54.300 impulse to

00:56:56.280 talk about

00:56:56.720 themselves too

00:56:57.400 much I

00:56:57.820 think it's

00:56:58.400 good to

00:56:58.900 talk about

00:56:59.320 yourself to

00:56:59.860 a certain

00:57:00.140 extent but

00:57:00.720 it seems to

00:57:02.520 me especially

00:57:02.800 the way people

00:57:03.140 talk about

00:57:03.620 therapy these

00:57:04.080 days like

00:57:04.400 they're proud

00:57:05.020 of going

00:57:05.520 they look

00:57:07.160 forward to

00:57:08.100 going and

00:57:08.800 if you have

00:57:11.020 something you're

00:57:11.340 really dealing

00:57:11.860 with and

00:57:13.000 you're going to

00:57:13.860 therapy in a

00:57:14.380 serious way

00:57:15.180 it seems you

00:57:16.980 wouldn't have the

00:57:17.320 same attitude

00:57:17.780 about it that

00:57:18.200 people do where

00:57:18.980 it's almost like

00:57:19.960 oh I can't

00:57:20.340 wait it's like

00:57:20.920 they're meeting a

00:57:21.420 friend for

00:57:22.020 lunch maybe

00:57:23.800 that's a good

00:57:24.300 kind of relationship

00:57:24.900 to establish

00:57:25.460 but it also

00:57:26.260 could create a

00:57:28.240 scenario where

00:57:29.040 somebody just

00:57:30.080 loves talking

00:57:30.560 about themselves

00:57:31.080 and they

00:57:31.440 oh definitely

00:57:32.440 and also

00:57:33.040 and not only

00:57:34.680 do they love

00:57:35.020 talking about

00:57:35.360 themselves but

00:57:35.880 it could also

00:57:36.580 be true that

00:57:37.200 yeah they may

00:57:38.600 have things they

00:57:39.120 want to complain

00:57:39.680 about that they

00:57:40.560 wouldn't be able

00:57:41.000 to complain about

00:57:41.580 to anyone in

00:57:42.380 their life about

00:57:42.860 those things

00:57:43.300 because the people

00:57:44.000 in their lives

00:57:44.600 are not paid to

00:57:45.320 listen and they've

00:57:46.180 got their own

00:57:46.580 lives and the

00:57:47.060 people in their

00:57:47.420 lives are likely

00:57:48.060 to say look

00:57:49.240 you just got to

00:57:49.920 deal with that I

00:57:50.540 don't have time to

00:57:51.340 listen to this

00:57:51.840 and those could

00:57:52.820 be the kinds

00:57:53.180 of things where

00:57:53.620 it's like I think

00:57:54.220 the healthiest way

00:57:55.480 to respond to that

00:57:56.040 is to not talk

00:57:57.100 about it like

00:57:57.480 there have to be

00:57:58.120 things in your

00:57:58.540 life that you

00:57:58.940 don't talk about

00:57:59.520 to anyone and

00:58:00.440 you just deal

00:58:01.100 with them you

00:58:01.500 have to have

00:58:01.880 that capacity

00:58:02.560 but if you have

00:58:03.960 a therapist then

00:58:04.780 that means that

00:58:05.300 you can pay

00:58:05.940 someone to

00:58:06.500 listen to every

00:58:07.360 little petty

00:58:09.020 complaint that

00:58:09.760 you have in

00:58:10.280 life and

00:58:11.700 and then

00:58:13.040 and then you

00:58:14.000 never learn to

00:58:14.800 just shut up

00:58:15.420 and deal with

00:58:15.820 it which also

00:58:16.300 has to be you

00:58:17.800 know a skill

00:58:18.800 that adults

00:58:19.300 develop okay

00:58:21.160 okay so

00:58:21.900 so let's

00:58:23.680 take that

00:58:24.120 let's take

00:58:25.200 that apart

00:58:25.660 so first of

00:58:26.600 all obsessive

00:58:28.840 concern with

00:58:29.740 the self is

00:58:30.760 indistinguishable

00:58:32.100 from misery

00:58:32.960 so to the

00:58:34.920 degree that

00:58:35.680 the hypothetically

00:58:38.500 therapeutic

00:58:39.720 interaction is

00:58:42.160 only characterized

00:58:43.220 by obsessive

00:58:45.460 self-focus

00:58:46.520 it's only going

00:58:48.720 to produce

00:58:49.180 misery and

00:58:50.560 even to foster

00:58:51.500 a kind of

00:58:52.100 narcissism

00:58:52.900 and I would

00:58:53.880 certainly say

00:58:54.600 that that

00:58:56.000 there's a

00:58:56.800 psychologist named

00:58:58.320 Jean Twenge

00:58:59.700 and she

00:59:00.960 has

00:59:01.660 concentrated on

00:59:03.720 exactly the

00:59:04.400 issue that you

00:59:05.040 described

00:59:05.700 with regards to

00:59:07.420 hypothetical

00:59:08.160 self-esteem

00:59:09.300 programs in

00:59:10.400 in schools

00:59:11.980 that have

00:59:12.520 produced what

00:59:13.860 she regards as

00:59:14.680 an epidemic of

00:59:15.420 narcissism

00:59:16.220 so then

00:59:18.860 you're pointing

00:59:19.440 to the

00:59:19.880 difficulty of

00:59:21.660 distinguishing

00:59:22.420 between

00:59:22.940 counterproductive

00:59:24.380 dwelling on

00:59:25.700 or even

00:59:26.600 narcissistic

00:59:27.720 counterproductive

00:59:28.680 dwelling on

00:59:29.540 the pleasure of

00:59:30.580 martyrdom

00:59:31.180 the pleasure of

00:59:32.220 self-flagellation

00:59:33.380 and display

00:59:34.200 and

00:59:35.180 communication

00:59:36.120 that's actually

00:59:37.020 oriented towards

00:59:38.420 concrete solution

00:59:40.100 to concrete

00:59:40.880 problems

00:59:41.420 okay

00:59:42.160 when I had

00:59:43.940 clients

00:59:44.600 I always

00:59:45.660 started with

00:59:46.220 a behavioral

00:59:46.900 the behavioral

00:59:48.080 approach

00:59:48.580 which isn't

00:59:49.740 really so much

00:59:50.740 even conversation

00:59:52.260 oriented

00:59:52.880 there was an

00:59:56.260 idea that

00:59:56.820 stemmed from

00:59:57.300 the Freudians

00:59:57.960 that if you

00:59:59.040 could just

00:59:59.580 get it off

01:00:00.200 your chest

01:00:00.860 if you could

01:00:01.280 just express

01:00:02.100 the emotion

01:00:02.780 that that would

01:00:03.600 be in itself

01:00:04.480 healing

01:00:04.940 and that's a

01:00:06.000 place where

01:00:06.420 Freud actually

01:00:07.100 went wrong

01:00:07.720 because

01:00:08.080 there's no

01:00:09.480 evidence that

01:00:10.300 merely

01:00:11.840 venting your

01:00:12.800 emotions

01:00:13.280 for example

01:00:14.040 in a

01:00:14.300 communicative

01:00:14.760 manner

01:00:15.140 has

01:00:15.620 moves you

01:00:17.260 forward

01:00:17.780 on your

01:00:18.640 path

01:00:19.040 in any

01:00:19.460 way

01:00:19.820 so

01:00:21.240 behaviorists

01:00:23.240 counteracted

01:00:25.280 that

01:00:25.580 potential

01:00:27.300 error on

01:00:28.340 the talk

01:00:29.100 therapy

01:00:29.540 or psychoanalytic

01:00:30.460 side by being

01:00:31.160 much more

01:00:31.700 pragmatically

01:00:32.780 problem focused

01:00:34.040 so let's

01:00:35.460 say

01:00:35.720 you came to

01:00:37.080 me and you

01:00:37.500 said you

01:00:37.880 were lonesome

01:00:38.700 well we

01:00:40.640 might be able

01:00:41.120 to delve

01:00:41.520 into your

01:00:41.920 past and

01:00:42.540 find out

01:00:43.100 what experiences

01:00:44.140 warped your

01:00:45.120 perspective so

01:00:46.160 that you were

01:00:46.720 unable to

01:00:47.440 socialize

01:00:48.240 and we

01:00:49.720 might be

01:00:50.180 able by

01:00:51.220 doing so

01:00:51.740 to clear

01:00:52.240 out some

01:00:52.720 of the

01:00:53.000 obstacles

01:00:53.600 of conception

01:00:54.760 maybe you

01:00:55.720 think all

01:00:56.220 people are

01:00:56.680 untrustworthy

01:00:57.460 because you

01:00:58.120 were betrayed

01:00:58.760 repeatedly when

01:00:59.780 you were a

01:01:00.180 child

01:01:00.480 maybe we

01:01:01.900 can sort

01:01:02.300 that out

01:01:02.680 conceptually

01:01:03.340 what a

01:01:03.920 behaviorist

01:01:04.560 would be

01:01:04.860 more likely

01:01:05.380 to do

01:01:05.760 is say

01:01:06.140 well

01:01:06.480 what's our

01:01:08.260 goal here

01:01:08.840 you have

01:01:09.580 zero friends

01:01:10.500 okay

01:01:10.960 how about

01:01:12.200 our first

01:01:12.660 goal is

01:01:13.180 that within

01:01:13.920 six months

01:01:15.400 you have

01:01:15.720 one friend

01:01:16.560 now we

01:01:17.940 need to

01:01:18.200 define what

01:01:18.960 friend is

01:01:20.160 which is

01:01:21.040 not such

01:01:21.720 a simple

01:01:22.160 thing

01:01:22.460 it'd be

01:01:22.740 at least

01:01:23.040 someone who

01:01:23.520 knows who

01:01:24.120 you are

01:01:24.560 that you

01:01:24.920 could talk

01:01:25.440 to on

01:01:26.280 some regular

01:01:27.160 basis

01:01:27.700 about at

01:01:28.700 least some

01:01:29.340 things that

01:01:29.980 were important

01:01:30.620 right you

01:01:31.060 can you

01:01:31.760 can break

01:01:32.200 down what

01:01:32.660 constitutes

01:01:33.240 friendship

01:01:33.680 into its

01:01:34.320 micro routines

01:01:35.140 you might

01:01:35.920 start with

01:01:36.420 someone like

01:01:36.920 that and

01:01:37.420 say well

01:01:38.560 what I would

01:01:40.820 do with

01:01:41.120 someone like

01:01:41.500 that especially

01:01:42.020 if their

01:01:42.360 social skills

01:01:43.060 were extremely

01:01:43.900 lacking which

01:01:44.780 is often the

01:01:45.760 case with

01:01:46.720 people who've

01:01:47.280 been who've

01:01:48.080 never been

01:01:48.500 attended to or

01:01:49.220 listened to in

01:01:49.780 their life I

01:01:50.680 just start by

01:01:51.460 training them

01:01:52.040 how to shake

01:01:53.760 hands and

01:01:54.360 introduce

01:01:54.960 themselves and

01:01:56.020 you have no

01:01:56.620 idea Matt how

01:01:57.500 many people don't

01:01:58.140 know how to do

01:01:58.600 that I'd say

01:01:59.800 10% of

01:02:01.640 people are

01:02:02.140 just they're

01:02:03.200 just stopped

01:02:04.000 cold in their

01:02:04.860 tracks because

01:02:06.140 they have no

01:02:06.620 idea how to

01:02:07.260 initiate a

01:02:07.980 civilized exchange

01:02:10.160 they'll they'll

01:02:12.100 offer you a

01:02:12.720 hand like a

01:02:13.900 cold dead

01:02:14.640 fish they

01:02:16.640 they won't

01:02:17.160 look at you

01:02:17.740 when they say

01:02:18.380 their name they

01:02:18.980 mumble so you

01:02:19.900 can't hear who

01:02:20.500 they are they

01:02:21.460 don't attend

01:02:22.080 well enough to

01:02:22.800 catch the other

01:02:23.420 person's name

01:02:24.200 they have no

01:02:25.200 idea how to

01:02:25.920 initiate an

01:02:26.680 exchange a good

01:02:28.000 behaviorist would

01:02:28.760 teach someone how

01:02:29.840 to do that and

01:02:30.420 actually practice

01:02:31.200 it I had clients

01:02:32.440 where you know we

01:02:33.260 did handshaking

01:02:34.240 practice I

01:02:35.860 certainly did that

01:02:36.460 with my kids it's

01:02:37.560 like get it right

01:02:38.400 let's do it till

01:02:40.600 you're expert at

01:02:42.020 it till you're

01:02:43.260 great at it and

01:02:45.220 that isn't so

01:02:46.920 that's therapy

01:02:47.540 that's not merely

01:02:48.380 talk right it's

01:02:49.580 skill or skill

01:02:51.040 oriented and that

01:02:52.820 can be of great

01:02:53.480 aid to people

01:02:54.020 especially people

01:02:54.780 who are terribly

01:02:55.360 neglected it's much

01:02:57.180 more concrete

01:02:57.920 practical it's

01:02:58.920 very very

01:02:59.640 problem focused

01:03:01.720 what's the

01:03:03.680 problem I'm

01:03:04.740 miserable well

01:03:05.780 why because I'm

01:03:06.600 lonely okay do

01:03:08.360 you have anybody in

01:03:09.240 your life no okay

01:03:11.200 well who do people

01:03:12.320 usually have in their

01:03:13.120 life a girlfriend or

01:03:15.060 boyfriend or a wife

01:03:16.160 or a husband some

01:03:17.880 siblings some

01:03:19.020 parents some

01:03:20.640 children some

01:03:21.880 friends okay

01:03:23.260 there's the realm

01:03:24.320 of some business

01:03:25.540 associates some

01:03:26.540 casual acquaintances

01:03:27.860 okay so that sort

01:03:29.100 of fleshes out the

01:03:29.920 territory maybe we

01:03:31.160 can start by helping

01:03:32.840 you learn how to make

01:03:33.800 a casual acquaintance

01:03:35.040 do you have a

01:03:36.380 corner store does

01:03:38.020 the clerk do you go

01:03:39.360 there regularly does

01:03:40.320 the clerk know your

01:03:41.660 name well go there

01:03:44.460 and introduce yourself

01:03:45.500 say hello ask them how

01:03:48.180 their day is going

01:03:49.180 listen to the answer

01:03:50.700 do that that's your

01:03:53.360 assignment for the week

01:03:54.500 after you've learned how

01:03:56.580 to shake hands and you

01:03:57.860 know present yourself like

01:03:59.540 a quasi-civilized human

01:04:01.040 being very concrete

01:04:02.840 it's one of the things I

01:04:04.220 really liked about the

01:04:05.360 behavioral training I

01:04:06.500 I acquired at at

01:04:09.300 McGill University because

01:04:10.940 most of my

01:04:12.020 teachers I read a lot of

01:04:15.700 psychoanalytic theory

01:04:16.700 humanist theory and so

01:04:17.740 forth I did that mostly

01:04:18.760 on my own most of my

01:04:20.340 mentors were

01:04:21.460 behaviorists very

01:04:22.760 practical people and

01:04:24.360 they were they were

01:04:25.000 trying to solve very

01:04:26.160 very specific focused

01:04:28.720 local problems of

01:04:30.200 adaptation and that

01:04:31.780 could be that could be

01:04:33.460 tremendously useful so

01:04:36.080 and then that's another

01:04:37.180 way you don't get to see

01:04:38.140 the behaviorists were

01:04:39.000 very much concerned that

01:04:40.120 the therapeutic process

01:04:41.580 as it was manifested by

01:04:43.260 the psychoanalysts would

01:04:44.420 drift off into pointless

01:04:47.340 endless quasi catharsis

01:04:50.200 with no real measurable

01:04:52.100 outcome and the

01:04:53.800 behaviorist school grew

01:04:55.340 up in opposition to that

01:04:56.720 and what I found was

01:04:59.040 helpful was I always

01:05:00.280 started my clients with

01:05:01.840 behavioral analysis it's

01:05:03.660 the simplest thing to do

01:05:04.740 and then I had clients

01:05:06.020 for whom a more

01:05:06.740 psychoanalytic approach

01:05:07.960 was useful but they're a

01:05:09.920 pretty small minority of

01:05:11.320 people they had to be

01:05:12.240 creative people generally

01:05:13.620 and creative people of

01:05:15.240 of some substantial

01:05:17.100 intelligence they were

01:05:18.480 more likely to make

01:05:20.800 manifest a broad scale

01:05:22.460 conceptual transformations

01:05:24.040 that can be life

01:05:24.920 changing but are

01:05:26.340 unlikely right I mean

01:05:28.600 look profound people

01:05:30.220 are capable of profound

01:05:31.340 realizations and that's

01:05:32.920 kind of what you're after

01:05:33.740 on the psychoanalytic

01:05:34.720 front but that's

01:05:36.100 definitely not for

01:05:36.880 everyone another danger

01:05:38.180 too of therapy you

01:05:39.700 really see this with the

01:05:41.440 perversions of

01:05:42.300 Freudian theory so your

01:05:44.020 typical dim-witted badly

01:05:45.560 trained psychotherapist

01:05:47.060 often a social worker but

01:05:48.720 not always will assume

01:05:50.440 reflexively that if you if

01:05:52.100 there's anything wrong with

01:05:53.140 you in adulthood any form

01:05:54.860 of suffering it's because

01:05:55.820 you were abused and usually

01:05:57.480 sexually as a child

01:05:59.040 that's the theory and then

01:06:01.700 what they do is go on a

01:06:02.940 hunt for evidence to prove

01:06:04.740 that theory and one of the

01:06:06.280 consequences of that

01:06:07.420 it's happened repeatedly is

01:06:08.960 that the therapists like

01:06:11.600 literally end up helping

01:06:14.260 their clients conjure forth

01:06:16.400 memories that don't even

01:06:18.300 exist unbelievably like I

01:06:21.480 said a poorly trained

01:06:22.980 therapist can do you a

01:06:25.040 world a world of harm a

01:06:27.100 world of harm and we're

01:06:29.180 also on thin ice there at

01:06:30.660 the moment too because

01:06:31.580 therapists are now mandated

01:06:33.440 by law to lie to you and

01:06:35.780 so that's especially on

01:06:38.240 the gender front you're

01:06:39.920 whoever you say you are

01:06:41.600 it's like no therapist has

01:06:43.420 ever believed that ever

01:06:45.620 about anything quite the

01:06:49.300 contrary and the fact that

01:06:50.940 my colleagues in their

01:06:52.460 silence are complicit in

01:06:54.760 this like mass atrocity is

01:06:57.660 one of the reasons I

01:06:59.460 thought it might be

01:07:00.180 interesting to talk to you

01:07:01.400 about your skepticism about

01:07:03.340 therapists

01:07:04.040 yeah the uh the

01:07:07.320 affirmative the so-called

01:07:08.320 affirmative model

01:07:09.280 oh yeah

01:07:10.380 which which and I know

01:07:13.380 you've said this many

01:07:14.000 times but but clearly

01:07:15.300 that's the opposite of

01:07:17.360 what of what therapy is

01:07:18.520 supposed to supposed to

01:07:19.640 do in most cases

01:07:20.820 it's insane you know I

01:07:23.120 mean look the first

01:07:26.240 thing that a therapist

01:07:27.460 therapist the first

01:07:28.880 predicate of a

01:07:31.300 therapeutic encounter is

01:07:32.580 that identity is

01:07:34.580 negotiated right the

01:07:37.400 whole therapeutic process

01:07:38.660 is negotiation of

01:07:40.120 identity no one comes

01:07:41.780 forth and proclaims

01:07:43.180 this is who I am if you

01:07:45.920 have a client like that

01:07:46.920 you might as well not

01:07:47.620 even begin they're just

01:07:49.160 looking for a rubber

01:07:49.880 stamp and you're corrupt

01:07:51.700 if you provide it it's

01:07:53.720 like the person has to

01:07:54.700 come in there with a

01:07:55.560 questioning attitude who

01:07:57.440 am I who should I be

01:08:00.160 how should I present

01:08:02.320 myself these are open

01:08:03.600 questions and the

01:08:04.420 therapist too equally has

01:08:06.500 to come with the same

01:08:07.280 attitude if you came to

01:08:08.440 talk to me my first

01:08:10.260 presumption is something

01:08:11.300 like I have no idea who

01:08:13.900 you are I have no idea

01:08:16.260 what your problems are I

01:08:17.680 have no idea what the

01:08:18.920 solutions could or should

01:08:20.860 be like we're gonna find

01:08:23.140 out we're gonna discover

01:08:24.780 we're not gonna insist

01:08:26.660 we're not we're not gonna

01:08:28.500 proclaim not at all it

01:08:30.860 doesn't work anyways but

01:08:32.040 it's also counter

01:08:32.980 therapeutic in the

01:08:34.280 extreme

01:08:34.860 is there so two other

01:08:38.500 things I want to ask you

01:08:39.340 before we wrap up

01:08:40.380 is there ever a time this

01:08:43.780 is another problem that I

01:08:44.700 have I guess with therapy

01:08:46.000 is that

01:08:46.420 it seems to me that

01:08:48.320 there that there are times

01:08:49.860 when somebody presents a

01:08:53.860 problem or an issue and

01:08:55.860 and the correct response

01:08:57.540 is words to the effect of

01:09:00.500 just get over it and not

01:09:03.500 much more than that so just

01:09:04.740 as an example I talked

01:09:06.700 about on my show recently

01:09:07.780 there's this Hollywood

01:09:08.500 actor I can't remember his

01:09:09.540 name but he said in an

01:09:11.320 interview that he that he's

01:09:12.720 in therapy now because he

01:09:14.640 just put out this Marvel

01:09:16.140 superhero film and it got some

01:09:17.540 bad reviews and this is a

01:09:19.560 grown man wealthy successful

01:09:21.540 got some bad reviews on a

01:09:24.000 film and he's in therapy

01:09:25.520 which the fact that he's

01:09:27.380 willing to even admit that

01:09:28.400 out loud is already a

01:09:29.380 problem and I think I think

01:09:30.460 you know men 50 years ago

01:09:32.480 would never if they were in

01:09:33.660 therapy probably wouldn't

01:09:34.840 tell you they certainly

01:09:35.960 wouldn't tell you if that

01:09:37.000 was the reason but with

01:09:39.460 something like that you know

01:09:40.820 I tend to think that giving

01:09:43.560 him any answer other than

01:09:45.420 look man it's they're bad

01:09:47.240 reviews you just got to get

01:09:48.300 over it we're not going to

01:09:48.980 have a conversation I'm not

01:09:49.780 going to sit here and talk

01:09:50.340 to you for an hour about

01:09:51.100 it we're not going to try

01:09:52.100 to unpack your feelings

01:09:53.360 you just have to deal with

01:09:55.180 that it seems like any

01:09:58.140 answer but that is is

01:10:00.100 inevitably going to feed

01:10:02.440 into his shallowness and

01:10:04.980 narcissism that that has you

01:10:06.940 know sent him there in the

01:10:08.060 first place it could well

01:10:09.480 so what I would say is that

01:10:11.700 if someone has made a mole

01:10:14.520 hill into a mountain the

01:10:17.540 mole hill is substituting

01:10:19.440 for the mountain so let me

01:10:21.960 give you a concrete example

01:10:23.160 of that let's say and I'm

01:10:24.240 sure you've experienced this

01:10:25.540 in the confines of your

01:10:26.780 marriage you know how now

01:10:28.300 and then if you're living

01:10:30.520 with someone one or the

01:10:33.740 other of you will become

01:10:35.040 disproportionately irritated

01:10:37.360 about some matter and one

01:10:41.320 response is just get over

01:10:42.900 it and the problem with

01:10:45.240 that response is the next

01:10:46.500 time the mole hill comes

01:10:47.640 up it's going to be made

01:10:48.580 into a mountain again

01:10:49.540 another response is what

01:10:52.780 the hell's bothering you

01:10:54.380 and then the other person

01:10:56.740 has to think okay like why

01:10:58.540 is that bothering me so

01:11:00.420 what my question would be

01:11:01.780 about this actor it's like

01:11:03.080 okay taking your objection

01:11:06.840 at face value what's big

01:11:10.620 deal here and then I'd find

01:11:13.520 out because my sense would

01:11:15.800 be that that's a that's a

01:11:17.740 manifest that may not be a

01:11:20.080 problem in and of itself but

01:11:21.300 it is definitely a

01:11:22.060 manifestation of a problem

01:11:23.560 now you already pointed to

01:11:25.300 that to some degree because

01:11:26.340 your instant presumption was

01:11:28.980 something like neurotic

01:11:30.700 narcissism well that's a

01:11:33.320 problem now the problem

01:11:34.980 might not be that his movie

01:11:37.440 got bad reviews the problem

01:11:39.720 is that the that he

01:11:41.640 couldn't handle the fact

01:11:42.640 that his movie got bad

01:11:43.720 reviews that's actually a

01:11:45.520 problem now what you'll see

01:11:47.480 is that if someone comes to

01:11:49.320 you actually wanting help

01:11:51.160 rather than validation for

01:11:53.180 their neurotic narcissism

01:11:55.320 that once you let them talk

01:11:57.460 about that look you know

01:12:01.600 the the the representation of

01:12:04.580 hell and Dante's inferno

01:12:07.440 you start with the you start

01:12:09.140 with the land of venal sins

01:12:11.140 and then Virgil guides you

01:12:14.080 down the rabbit hole right to

01:12:16.860 the depths of hell itself

01:12:18.320 that's what you do when you

01:12:20.680 investigate a problem like that

01:12:23.100 properly in the therapeutic

01:12:24.660 context God only knows what's

01:12:27.080 lurking underneath that now this

01:12:29.400 actor wouldn't be suffering if

01:12:31.560 something like that wasn't the

01:12:33.340 case now that doesn't mean that

01:12:35.120 his problem is that the movie got

01:12:36.680 bad reviews that's not the

01:12:38.820 problem the problem is the

01:12:40.780 neurotic and narcissistic

01:12:42.580 hypersensitivity and God only

01:12:45.860 knows what sort of monster lurks at

01:12:47.500 the bottom of that you could

01:12:49.600 imagine that it would be

01:12:50.560 something like this is just you

01:12:53.340 know a hypothesis but something

01:12:55.420 like a terrible sin of pride so

01:12:59.540 that leads to my I guess my last

01:13:01.820 question which is what how do you

01:13:04.120 think this changes

01:13:05.080 is it a lot of this sort of

01:13:09.200 gender based I was when I was

01:13:12.520 arguing about the therapy thing on

01:13:13.900 on Twitter and I got into back and

01:13:16.080 forth with Lauren Southern who's a

01:13:17.860 another conservative personality I

01:13:20.080 guess and you know and I like her

01:13:22.980 she gets a little mad at me

01:13:24.040 sometimes when I'm when I do my

01:13:25.640 whole harsh internet dad routine

01:13:27.240 but after we went back and forth

01:13:29.460 about it she says that's not good

01:13:30.640 if Lauren Southern gets mad at you

01:13:32.380 because she's pretty harsh in her

01:13:34.280 own right so if you're yeah if

01:13:36.440 you're treading on Lauren Southern's

01:13:38.220 feelings you know that's that's

01:13:40.140 quite something that's true anyways

01:13:41.520 anyways that's it takes it takes

01:13:43.340 some effort on my part takes some

01:13:44.240 effort but she made a point at the

01:13:45.700 end of it that I thought was that I

01:13:46.740 that I thought was interesting which

01:13:47.760 is that she said you know a lot of

01:13:49.540 our differences on this topic is

01:13:50.600 probably man brain versus woman

01:13:52.800 brain so on therapy yeah is there is

01:13:57.040 something to be said for the fact

01:13:58.160 that is therapy in general more

01:14:04.340 useful as a general statement maybe

01:14:06.640 for women than it is for men or is it

01:14:09.440 a totally different kind of therapy

01:14:10.640 that men need or how does that factor

01:14:12.340 into it that that's a good question

01:14:15.140 well women are characterized by higher

01:14:19.520 average levels of negative emotion so

01:14:23.200 one of the ways of conceptualizing that

01:14:25.940 is that per unit of threat and

01:14:28.540 and punishment women will suffer more

01:14:32.260 than men and we there is a variety of

01:14:35.940 reasons for that but I think the most

01:14:37.900 fundamental reason is likely that women

01:14:40.360 are wired more than men to respond to

01:14:45.240 distress distress of infants particularly

01:14:49.320 and that that gives them a general

01:14:51.320 proclivity to respond to distress and now

01:14:55.920 the upside of that is well infants don't

01:14:58.680 die the downside of that is women suffer

01:15:01.480 from higher levels of depression and

01:15:03.260 anxiety and that's true cross-culturally

01:15:05.840 and it's more true in gender equal

01:15:09.000 countries so it looks like it's very it's

01:15:13.460 deep difference women are also more people

01:15:17.000 and relationship oriented than men and

01:15:20.600 that's actually the biggest difference we

01:15:22.040 know between men and women women are

01:15:23.720 reliably more interested in people than

01:15:25.880 they are in things most people who

01:15:28.840 incline in the therapeutic direction are

01:15:31.560 female or have a relatively feminine

01:15:34.520 temperament and there are aspects of my

01:15:36.760 temperament for example that are quite

01:15:38.680 feminine so I'm quite high in trade

01:15:41.320 agreeableness for example like quite

01:15:44.680 spectacularly high actually and that's a

01:15:46.760 more feminine trait because women are

01:15:48.280 also more agreeable than men so now so I

01:15:52.680 would say the that listening ear

01:15:56.600 mentality rather than that concrete

01:15:59.000 problem-solving mentality is more

01:16:01.880 feminine than it is masculine now there

01:16:04.840 are more masculine approaches to therapy like

01:16:07.000 the behavioral approaches are I would say more

01:16:09.960 temperamentally masculine they're a lot more

01:16:11.720 problem focused it's like what the what the

01:16:13.960 hell is your problem no I mean exactly

01:16:17.240 precisely and what would you be willing

01:16:19.640 to accept as a solution and how can we work

01:16:23.000 on that concretely it's like an engineer's

01:16:25.400 approach to psychological problems and

01:16:29.000 that's less talky you know it's less

01:16:31.000 relationshipy it's less suffused with

01:16:34.280 emotion

01:16:35.880 um having said that you know women are more

01:16:39.320 likely to seek out therapy than men so

01:16:45.000 they also might have more issues to discuss

01:16:47.160 you know well the thing is because women are

01:16:49.080 more sensitive to threat and punishment

01:16:52.440 more things bother them

01:16:55.080 now you might say get over it's like

01:16:57.400 well you know yes and no because one of the

01:17:00.680 advantages to having a lower threshold for

01:17:03.880 detection of threat is that you see

01:17:06.680 problems earlier and now the downside is that

01:17:10.760 the false positive problem right you see problems

01:17:12.920 when they don't exist

01:17:14.680 you know and you're not going to get one of

01:17:16.600 those without the other takes very careful

01:17:19.160 discernment to

01:17:20.920 that's partly I think why the dynamic of a

01:17:23.720 marriage is so useful for people psychologically

01:17:26.440 you know women are going to be more likely in the

01:17:28.360 typical marriage to see where problems might be

01:17:31.080 arising right but men are going to be better at

01:17:35.480 constraining that now sometimes the men get too

01:17:38.520 constraining and they'll ignore

01:17:42.040 you know and then that's not good but sometimes the

01:17:44.440 women get too sensitive and

01:17:48.280 are responding to crises that don't exist and

01:17:52.280 that's not good and so good communication within a marriage

01:17:56.120 optimizes those two approaches it's like the

01:17:58.680 it's a minimization of two kinds of error false positives

01:18:02.280 and false negatives so

01:18:04.920 so would you would you say that therapy could be more

01:18:09.800 as a general statement is more geared towards

01:18:13.560 women because it seems to me that women

01:18:17.240 uh is a very broad statement obviously but women

01:18:20.840 many of their

01:18:22.520 problems or their their unhappiness comes from not feeling

01:18:25.560 uh understood especially in a in a relationship not not feeling

01:18:29.160 understood is is is the root of of many of their you know uh

01:18:35.080 problems whereas for men and maybe i'm just speaking

01:18:40.280 maybe maybe i'm extrapolating from from my own psyche or something

01:18:42.840 but well you are for minutes it's

01:18:45.640 well the thing about women like look everybody needs to put their cards on the

01:18:50.440 table everybody needs that now i would say as a rule of thumb

01:18:56.760 women have more cards to put on the table and that's a consequence of their enhanced

01:19:01.160 sensitivity to threat now one of the things you find

01:19:04.680 in dealing with women therapeutically or otherwise is that

01:19:08.520 if you let them put all their cards on the table they often figure out for themselves that

01:19:13.480 most of the issues aren't relevant but they're not going to figure that out without

01:19:17.320 having the forum to do that this is one of the constant

01:19:21.640 miscommunications between men and women so women will bring up concerns and the men

01:19:26.120 will think jesus no really really we have to be worried about that and what the men don't

01:19:31.400 understand exactly is well if you let her talk through it she'd figure out for herself that

01:19:36.760 she doesn't have to be worried about that but that will not happen without that

01:19:43.160 listening ear and that that makes communication between very feminine women and very masculine

01:19:50.440 men quite difficult because the very feminine women will be you know bringing up issues left

01:19:55.880 right and center and the very masculine men are like let's get to the solution you know they're

01:20:01.640 like engineers let's get to the solution it's like fair enough you know but you can't solve

01:20:06.840 the problem till you know what it is and what the women are doing is saying well here's a bunch of

01:20:13.320 things that might be a problem you know and and there's well there's there's utility in that painful

01:20:21.960 though it is and it is painful virtually by definition now is does that mean that the therapeutic process

01:20:28.280 is geared more toward women i think that the distinction that we drew earlier between like

01:20:36.120 a more talk oriented therapy and a more behavioral therapy might be useful to some degree behavioral

01:20:43.080 therapy is pretty useful for people who are cut and dried in their apprehensions you know it's like

01:20:48.680 what's the problem here what are we trying to solve what are the simplest solutions we can take like

01:20:54.520 i said it's a very engineering approach to the to the realm of navigation so i would say that most more

01:21:04.600 masculine men would find behavioral psychology much less much more uh palatable it's not so emotion

01:21:14.440 focused it's not so feeling focused and i'm not recommending it for everyone i mean it bloody well the

01:21:21.400 other thing you got to understand too is that finding a therapist is like finding a lawyer

01:21:25.960 like a bad lawyer there's nothing more expensive than a bad cheap lawyer

01:21:32.440 it's really hard to find a good lawyer it's really hard to find a good psychologist

01:21:36.280 like that's a difficult thing to manage i mean when people ask me how to go about doing that i would

01:21:41.480 say or i did say at least until recently that you should find a phd in clinical psychology from a

01:21:49.720 american cycle psychological association approved clinical school that focuses on research

01:21:56.840 see one of the things that clinical psychologists have that physicians don't is that well-trained

01:22:02.920 clinicians are actually scientists and people think doctors physicians are scientists and they're not

01:22:10.200 not even a bit they're not trained to be scientists they don't know how to analyze the research

01:22:15.720 literature they don't know how to conduct research they don't have that mode of thinking

01:22:21.400 drilled into them that takes years now the american psychological association and these other

01:22:30.360 accrediting organizations have become corrupt and so you know that's a problem but i would still say

01:22:37.800 as a rule of thumb phd psychologist from apa approved school that's a good first pass approximation at

01:22:48.440 least you got at least you've got someone then who is intelligent and conscientiousness conscientious

01:22:54.680 at least that that's not a bad start well we've uh i feel like we've only scratched the surface um even

01:23:02.520 though we've been talking for a while we could obviously continue for another two hours on this topic i'd find it

01:23:06.520 quite fascinating um but we do have to wrap it there uh dr peterson thanks so much for for talking

01:23:13.480 through all this um let me let me add one capping thing if you don't mind look when you're going for

01:23:21.000 therapy what you're trying to do is put your life together okay that's really hard it's really hard

01:23:29.640 it's not something to be undertaken lightly and you want to be sure that you have a good guide

01:23:36.760 because when the blind lead the blind both fall into a pit and there's that's certainly the case

01:23:43.720 with the so-called therapeutic enterprise if you find someone who is wise and who will listen

01:23:52.200 and you're aiming up hard and you're willing to tell the truth then you can embark on the kind of

01:23:58.200 voyage of self-discovery that can clarify your mind and help you shoulder your burdens with a certain degree of

01:24:05.560 productive generosity and nobility but it's not a game and it can go spectacularly wrong

01:24:14.040 how do you think someone can be confident they found somebody like that

01:24:17.720 a therapist they listen

01:24:20.600 that's a big deal they listen and and you come to trust them no the same way you evaluate any deep

01:24:30.760 relationship that you're that you're likely to place some faith in but it's virtually impossible to

01:24:39.080 overstate the utility of listening look if you listen people talk if they talk honestly they're thinking

01:24:48.840 if they think their stupid thoughts can die instead of them

01:24:52.200 and and that's the forum that therapy provides is precisely that it's a place for thought

01:25:00.120 genuine thought and insofar as thought is useful and expressible in words then

01:25:05.400 genuine dialogue dialogueos right that's the activation of that transformative spirit within

01:25:12.520 the confines of the that that realm of intimate communication it it's transformative the same

01:25:19.960 way the word is transformative according to the dictates of christianity it's the same idea but

01:25:29.240 the whole process has to be inspired by love and guided by truth otherwise

01:25:35.640 you'll be led astray by false spirits yeah well said uh i think that's a good uh good thought to to

01:25:47.240 leave it on uh so thanks again dr peterson for talking to us and talking through all this thought

01:25:52.280 it was a fascinating conversation we appreciate it hey man thanks for the opportunity and uh you know

01:25:58.280 hopefully what we talk through will be helpful for people who are skeptical you know in the manner

01:26:04.280 that you are skeptical and rightly so and and that skepticism should be maintained you know you don't

01:26:11.160 reveal the secrets of your soul to any old passerby yeah yeah i think it will i think uh i think it

01:26:19.320 it will be very helpful to people uh so thank you good to see you matt

01:26:37.160 you

The Matt Walsh Show - February 24, 2024

My Discussion With Jordan Peterson

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