The Matt Walsh Show - February 29, 2024


The Price of Principle： Facing a Decade In Prison For Protecting the Unborn


Episode Stats

Length

53 minutes

Words per Minute

180.71498

Word Count

9,625

Sentence Count

567

Misogynist Sentences

13

Hate Speech Sentences

10


Summary

Pro-Life Activist Paul Vaughn joins us to talk about his recent conviction for violating the FACE Act, and how he and others in the pro-life movement are trained to de-escalate situations like this.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Sitting here with Paul Vaughn, who is a pro-life activist who was recently arrested, charged, and convicted by the Biden administration of violations of something called the FACE Act.
00:00:12.200 And we're going to get into all of that, including what the FACE Act is.
00:00:16.020 But first, Paul, thanks for joining us.
00:00:19.060 Thanks for having me.
00:00:20.340 Before we get into all the details here, how have you been in what I'm sure is an extremely trying time for you and your family?
00:00:28.540 Sure. You know, we've been ups and downs, right?
00:00:32.000 It's not every day someone gets convicted and brought in the federal court system.
00:00:36.420 So it's a new ground for us, if you will.
00:00:39.800 I imagine. What about your family? How have they reacted to all this?
00:00:43.620 Yeah, I mean, it's brought us closer together, right?
00:00:46.080 When you get drawn into a battle, it brings the relationships stronger, makes us all depend on Christ more, and that's where we're at.
00:00:53.060 So this protest happened back in 2021, correct?
00:00:58.540 Yep, March.
00:00:59.820 And so let's just begin by kind of setting the stage.
00:01:05.420 What was the protest? What happened that day?
00:01:07.960 And also, what was your specific involvement?
00:01:10.880 Sure. Well, I'm president of a person at Tennessee, and so we're a life advocacy organization that deals a lot with pro-life ministry,
00:01:19.660 but also all facets of life, you know, across humanity, across every stage of life.
00:01:24.380 Part of our ministry is a sidewalk counseling out of abortion clinics.
00:01:28.620 So we would go out and offer literature and help to young ladies, you know, in a situation where they might need an abortion or think they need an abortion and try to help them.
00:01:38.900 So on the day in question, that's what we were doing.
00:01:41.640 And care for them is a little bit different, that it's not accessible outside.
00:01:44.700 It's in a public building, a multi-clinic building.
00:01:48.020 So we were in the hallways, the public hallways that day, offering help to moms seeking abortion.
00:01:54.620 And what does that look like, offering help?
00:01:56.560 Yeah, usually just engaging in a conversation, asking, you know, obviously there's, in that particular hallway, there's only the abortion clinic.
00:02:06.040 So you know pretty much what they're doing if they're coming down that hallway.
00:02:08.460 And then just asking, if they know that there's other options available, do they understand the ramifications and the dangers of what they're doing?
00:02:17.800 You know, abortion's not been a highly moral industry where they, you know, give clear warnings and market labeling, as it were, to the dangers and the risks associated with abortions.
00:02:28.500 And then certainly the post-abortion traumatic stress syndrome and the things that go along with abortion.
00:02:34.120 So we just try to make sure they have all the facts, let them know that people are there to help them, that sometimes, usually abortion seems like the only way out.
00:02:41.580 It's the last option, kind of a solution, you know, a terminal solution.
00:02:45.960 And we try to let them know that there are other options out there and there are people, that strangers, that they don't know, they're willing to help them and be there for them.
00:02:52.960 What kind of reactions do you typically get from the women that you engage with?
00:02:56.540 Sure, I mean, it's across the board, right?
00:02:58.320 I mean, it's a highly emotionally charged time in that person's life.
00:03:02.400 And some respond in tears and, oh, thank God, I didn't know anyone cared.
00:03:07.000 And some respond with cursing and violence and, you know, anger and, you know, being frustrated that they feel like they're being called out on the, you know, participating in abortion.
00:03:17.680 And if you get the latter response, the cursing and the violence, how do you respond to that?
00:03:23.260 Sure.
00:03:23.640 I mean, it's always in a defensive offsetting, trying to tampen down the situation and calm it down.
00:03:30.640 So we obviously don't ramp up and cuss back and holler and scream.
00:03:34.780 It's a, hey, I understand you're upset.
00:03:37.540 You know, we just wanted to make sure you knew there are options.
00:03:39.980 And we're here to help and just anything we can do to tone it down and try to help.
00:03:44.800 Because, you know, at the end of the day, they're not mad at me.
00:03:47.520 They're in a hard situation.
00:03:49.500 And so we go, we did sidewalk training classes where we've gone into churches and taught how to deescalate things, how to bring things down, what kind of people you'll see at the clinic and what you're going to expect.
00:04:00.120 And so we cover all this in our training extensively and different, you know, different models, different assessments and things to do when you're dealing with that situation.
00:04:09.680 How long have you been doing pro-life work?
00:04:12.380 Gosh, since early 90s, 93, I suppose.
00:04:15.480 Now, I'm sure you're familiar with the sort of the stereotype of pro-life, pro-lifers in general, but especially those who show up outside the clinics.
00:04:25.180 And usually the stereotype is screaming and yelling at the women and telling them they're going to hell and that sort of thing.
00:04:31.300 Sure.
00:04:31.760 I've, in my experience, I don't have as much experience as you do, but in my experience with pro-life protesters, I don't think I've ever seen that.
00:04:40.420 But that's not, sounds like that's not your experience either.
00:04:43.220 Well, it's certainly not something we do.
00:04:44.740 And to be clear, there are always people that are out there that usually they're rogue, they're not associated with the church, they don't have any actual training or any, you know, they, you know, a lot of times they're post-aborted themselves and they feel guilty.
00:04:57.500 And so there are people that come out, they're more aggressive, more rebuking, and certainly not the spirit of Christ that we believe actually helps people.
00:05:07.220 And so while those people are out there, it is, they're certainly a minority and it's something that the pro-abortion side latches onto and tries to make it like it's the majority of folks.
00:05:16.620 And that's just simply not true.
00:05:17.720 So going back to that day in 2021, you said this was a clinic that was inside like an office building?
00:05:26.380 Yes, it's a multi-tenant building.
00:05:29.000 So there was dentist's office, massage therapist, and all kinds of other tenants in the building along with the abortion clinic, which was care from clinic.
00:05:37.040 And then the activists were out in the hallway?
00:05:39.360 Correct, yep.
00:05:40.220 And you were out in the hallway as well?
00:05:41.900 I was, yep.
00:05:45.560 What happened that particular day?
00:05:47.460 Did the police show up?
00:05:48.820 Sure.
00:05:49.300 So the first thing is the security guard walks down the hall and tells us we need to leave.
00:05:55.220 And Matt, let me go back just a second to set it up a little bit.
00:06:00.880 You know, the trespassing is what the charge was that day for the folks that did get arrested.
00:06:06.140 It was not me.
00:06:07.220 I did not get arrested that day.
00:06:10.220 But in order to be trespassed off a property, the building owner has to tell you you're not welcome.
00:06:15.480 And specifically the property, when it's a multi-tenant dwelling, and the expectation is that all the public is welcome because of all the tenants that are in the building.
00:06:24.740 So there's the legal framework for where I was operating in that day of having the building manager, building owner, or operator actually telling us we weren't welcome.
00:06:35.280 Did that happen?
00:06:35.760 It did not, actually, ironically.
00:06:37.780 And you see that in some of the interviews after the fact with police officers going back to the clinic, asking specifically if they had the authority to trespass people, if the building owner was aware, and different things like that in the post-arrest interviews that took place.
00:06:53.600 But basically what happened is we came into the hallway, the security guard came down, told us to leave.
00:06:59.040 He said, we're going to call the police.
00:07:00.720 So they called the police.
00:07:02.000 The first couple officers showed up and told us to go out on the sidewalk.
00:07:06.340 You can protest on the sidewalk.
00:07:07.520 And the folks that wanted, that were going to risk arrest that day in a rescue fashion, we could talk about that if you want, what a rescue is versus sidewalk counseling and different things.
00:07:21.600 But they pointed out to the officer that if they left their position there in the hallway, then that clinic was going to open up and little baby boys and girls were going to die that day.
00:07:33.480 And they didn't feel morally they could walk away from such a situation.
00:07:37.560 And so that was, that's one element of the day.
00:07:40.460 And like I said, the others were the sidewalk counselors and then the people in the hallway just to pray and to, to worship and just to lend spiritual support, you know, to the day as well.
00:07:50.780 And which of those categories were you specifically?
00:07:53.360 Yeah, I was, I had sidewalk counseling teams there that I had trained.
00:07:57.720 I was not doing the counseling specifically.
00:08:00.760 I was interacting.
00:08:01.940 I was certainly praying and singing and participating in the worship aspect of it.
00:08:06.140 And then primarily my role developed that day, just kind of serendipitously, is when I realized that the police didn't really understand what was going on.
00:08:14.900 And, you know, think back, this was a time of BLM and TIFA and all the violence going on.
00:08:20.080 And my main concern was they're going to think we're some kind of violent group and they're going to come against my sidewalk counselors and start, you know, being heavy handed and dangerous and violent in response.
00:08:30.340 And so I went to talk to them just to assure them that we were a peaceful group.
00:08:34.140 There was no violence.
00:08:35.260 Nobody was going to resist anything.
00:08:38.600 That's how the conversation started with them and developed from there.
00:08:41.900 Now, you mentioned rescue, and there's a distinction between that and sidewalk counseling.
00:08:45.820 So what is that distinction?
00:08:46.880 Sure.
00:08:47.400 So back in the late 80s, early 90s, a tactic developed from the church.
00:08:52.100 And it was a multi-denominational effort and understanding of dealing with the dilemma of if you really believe these unborn children are humans and little boys and girls, then we should act like it.
00:09:05.680 And what model do we have and how can we protect them and actually stand in the gap and actually do something rather than just talking about it?
00:09:14.240 And what was developed is what's traditionally known as a sit-in in America, right?
00:09:18.860 All protest groups sit in and block something or they do, you know, to protest the whatever it may be, Greenpeace or, you know, the Jerusalem, Gaza stuff that's going on now.
00:09:29.800 We see this happening.
00:09:31.120 So it's just basically normal American sit-in protest type things, but with a spiritual additional element is that the main heart of that matter and the rescue movement that we saw rise in,
00:09:44.100 and just so I don't forget, there were about 77,000 Christians arrested in America, making the pro-life movement one of the largest civil disobedient movements in the nation.
00:09:55.380 But the spiritual element was not just, hey, we're here to physically block the doors and shut it down.
00:09:59.900 It was, how do we respond in a Christ-like manner?
00:10:03.160 And what do we see in the model of Christ is that he interposed between us and the one that was coming to destroy our soul.
00:10:10.020 He laid down his own life so that we might have life.
00:10:12.860 And so that's what the church was trying to do, is to sit down at the door and say, look, I'm willing to go to jail.
00:10:18.360 I believe that baby that you're carrying is valuable enough as a human being that I'm willing to go to jail for the sake of you and that child.
00:10:29.520 So the rescue slash sit-in, as you say, were you doing the sit-in yourself personally?
00:10:37.680 Back in the 90s, I did.
00:10:39.240 I participated in a couple.
00:10:40.320 In this situation, not at all.
00:10:41.700 And just, man, just, my 11th child is three years old next month.
00:10:47.480 And so she was due like five days after this event.
00:10:51.260 I was very cautious of all the lines to stay in.
00:10:54.080 So I didn't want to be in jail and risk missing our 11th child being born.
00:10:58.640 11 children.
00:10:59.500 What are the age ranges?
00:11:00.900 From 29 down to three.
00:11:04.800 You have multiples in there, twins?
00:11:06.240 No twins.
00:11:07.000 All the hard way, all the old-fashioned way.
00:11:09.100 One at a time.
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00:11:54.260 So, the police show up, and at what point do they start arresting people?
00:12:02.200 So, they came in, you know, you had the first group that showed up, and they came and talked, and like I said, I went back and talked with them.
00:12:10.840 Seeing that there were so many people, they called in, you know, there's procedures they follow, right?
00:12:15.900 So, if there's a large gathering and a protest or something, they have policies internally that they follow.
00:12:21.640 So, they called out the rest of the task force and whoever else was supposed to be there, including the negotiators.
00:12:27.040 And so, once the negotiators were on site, we had with us one of the gentlemen that was leading the rescue aspect of it is a former Las Vegas police officer, Chet Gallagher, a great man, a man that loves God.
00:12:41.400 He's been participating in pro-life work is, you know, 30 years or so now.
00:12:48.020 So, he was going to speak to the police officers because of his background.
00:12:52.640 He actually was confronted with this in his role as a police officer when they were doing a rescue in Las Vegas.
00:12:59.200 And instead of arresting the Christians, basically, he gave up his job and participated with them.
00:13:05.460 And he felt convicted that that was the right thing to do.
00:13:08.860 As a police officer, he tried to report that there was a murder in progress.
00:13:12.460 You know, there's a life at danger here.
00:13:14.420 We need to do something.
00:13:15.540 And the higher command wasn't buying it.
00:13:17.900 So, he did the thing that he felt like he needed to do there.
00:13:20.140 So, he and I, since I had already talked with the police earlier, I went with him to just kind of ride his shirt tail and listen to the conversation.
00:13:30.480 Like I said, we both had kind of different interests there that day.
00:13:35.280 Primarily one interest, obviously, saving children, but different avenues of what we were planning on doing and what our role was.
00:13:42.620 And so, we ended up talking with the negotiators and police officers, had great conversations with some Christian civil magistrates and talked about Romans 13 and the role of the officers and all that.
00:13:53.460 So, it was a good, you know, a good discussion with them.
00:13:55.600 So, through that process, though, we determined and let them know that not everybody was willing to be arrested, that some were waiting to be trespassed properly to leave, and that others were willing to risk arrest, and that they would not resist, that, you know, it would be peaceful.
00:14:11.720 And so, we kind of negotiated and worked with the police through their processes to figure out how the arrest would be made and how that would go down.
00:14:19.000 How many did they arrest that day?
00:14:20.300 We ended up with, I think it was eight adults and four children, and the children weren't actually arrested.
00:14:26.420 They were cited and released back to their parents.
00:14:28.820 And the charge was trespassing?
00:14:30.060 The charge was, yeah, criminal trespass, typically a Class B misdemeanor, and those were dismissed at Wilson County.
00:14:36.140 And why were you not arrested then?
00:14:38.620 Because I obeyed the police.
00:14:39.760 When they said it's time to leave, I left.
00:14:42.300 All right.
00:14:42.680 So, that was 2021, and that's, as far as you know, sort of the end of it at that point?
00:14:47.240 Sure.
00:14:47.620 Yeah.
00:14:47.880 Yeah.
00:14:48.040 Yeah, we went to the jail and sang hymns and prayed for the people that were in jail through the weekend waiting to get processed out.
00:14:54.480 And, you know, they went back to the court date.
00:14:56.800 How long until it was dismissed?
00:14:59.380 Varies.
00:14:59.960 Because different ones showed up at different times.
00:15:02.340 They didn't all have a mass trial like we did in the federal court.
00:15:07.160 And then the federal government gets involved?
00:15:10.380 In a big way, yeah.
00:15:11.140 What—I guess at what point did you know that the federal government was looking at your case?
00:15:18.460 Yeah, so 7.15 on a Wednesday morning in October when my house started rattling and I heard the words,
00:15:24.860 open up FBI, and I don't know about the average American, but that's not something that's in my common thought process at any time in the day,
00:15:34.720 let alone at 7.15 in the morning.
00:15:36.200 So they showed up to arrest me, and we had a big—I mean, that's been, you know, covered a lot.
00:15:42.060 But there was four armed guards, armed FBI agents in tactical gear, fully armed, long gun, side arms, vest, everything.
00:15:50.660 Three of my children were outside in the side yard.
00:15:54.860 Like I said, they were about to go to school, and so they were heading out to the car, and they were being held—I didn't know at the time,
00:16:01.760 but they were being held out to the side by another agent, you know, with a long gun and wouldn't let them come back into the house.
00:16:08.120 And then, you know, processing everything that goes through one's head in a situation like that.
00:16:14.460 You had—prior to this, you had—you didn't even hear any rumblings that the federal government was looking into this?
00:16:19.740 I tell you that, Matt, the only rumbling I heard was when they arrested Mark Houck in Pennsylvania,
00:16:25.080 and I realized what a sham that was from what little bit I knew of it.
00:16:29.740 I told my daughter, I think the week before, I said, you know, with the stuff we've been involved in our whole life,
00:16:33.760 being out on the sidewalks and stuff, the day and age is coming to our country where they could come for us.
00:16:38.860 And it was more of a warning to my children coming up in the culture they're going to be living in and what's setting expectations.
00:16:45.020 I had no idea how, you know, a week later that that would be true for us.
00:16:49.740 How did your wife and kids react in the moment?
00:16:54.080 Yeah, you know, my wife was awesome.
00:16:56.540 I mean, she was sent to get a sweater for me and was cognitant enough to grab her phone, you know,
00:17:04.480 quick enough to—on her feet to grab it and come back.
00:17:07.760 And it's so funny.
00:17:09.720 The attitude of those agents were cocky and arrogant.
00:17:13.340 The guy was taunting my wife.
00:17:16.980 She never got told what they were arresting me for.
00:17:19.440 I didn't get told until we were in the car and I was locked in the car.
00:17:25.000 So they're taunting her.
00:17:26.760 She's asking, why are you arresting?
00:17:28.140 And the agent literally is sitting there doing this little head bob.
00:17:31.680 You want to know?
00:17:32.320 You really want to know?
00:17:33.840 And she came out with the camera and it's like, well, ma'am, I've been trying to tell you.
00:17:36.880 I mean, day and night.
00:17:39.400 And, you know, unfortunately, you don't have that on video.
00:17:41.660 But that was the attitude at least one of the agents had.
00:17:45.700 And, you know, there's four of them.
00:17:47.780 They're all different.
00:17:48.320 They have different, you know, different lives to live and all that.
00:17:52.960 What's going through your head in that moment?
00:17:54.400 Yeah, well, you know, when I pulled the curtains back and saw the guns pointed at me, the very first thing is the safety of my family.
00:18:03.580 And you go through all the scenarios, you know, of, you know, somebody showing up at your door that seeks to do harm to your family.
00:18:10.040 And what do you do?
00:18:11.420 And quickly process that it had to be politically motivated.
00:18:16.140 I'm not, I mean, I'm a local business owner.
00:18:18.040 I've been on the same farm for 15 years, on the same business for 11 years.
00:18:21.820 So I knew there wasn't anything violent or anything.
00:18:25.660 It had to be political of some sort.
00:18:28.620 And so I reasoned that the safest thing to do is just put myself in their hands and surrender myself for the sake of my family.
00:18:36.720 And that was, you know, a thousand thoughts in about three milliseconds kind of processing.
00:18:41.780 You said that only once you were in the car they told you what you're being arrested for.
00:18:45.920 What did they say?
00:18:46.540 They, I, because I asked for a warrant at some point and under whose authority they were arresting me or whatever.
00:18:52.760 And, you know, the cocky eyes point says a little Velcro badge.
00:18:55.160 This is all the identification you get, you know, kind of thing.
00:18:57.560 But the, fortunately I didn't ride back to Nashville with him.
00:19:00.320 I rode with two of the other agents.
00:19:02.340 And he said, you know, here's, here's the warrant if you want to see it.
00:19:05.660 And they pulled it up on a laptop.
00:19:07.120 And of course I didn't have my glasses or anything else.
00:19:09.300 All I could see his face in bold letters.
00:19:10.880 I'm like, okay, well, it's pro-life related.
00:19:12.540 So at that point I had at least an understanding that it was pro-life related.
00:19:17.340 I still had no idea it was that particular event or, or anything.
00:19:20.900 See, I'm pretty naive.
00:19:21.780 I thought that when you get arrested, they have to tell you why.
00:19:25.660 Yeah.
00:19:26.860 Is that not a, you know, is that not a thing?
00:19:29.220 When, when the guys have guns and an attitude and don't want to tell you who's going to make them.
00:19:33.980 And that's, that's really what it comes down to.
00:19:40.860 I guess I would throw it over to you, Stephen.
00:19:43.220 You're Paul's lawyer, correct?
00:19:45.080 Yes.
00:19:45.560 And you're with the Thomas More Society?
00:19:47.180 Correct.
00:19:49.060 Just the process of getting arrested here.
00:19:51.340 Because I'm trying to understand the law.
00:19:52.820 I know based on what I see in law and order, they give you Miranda rights.
00:19:55.740 Right.
00:19:55.960 They tell you what you're being arrested for.
00:19:56.940 Yeah.
00:19:57.660 And that didn't happen here?
00:19:58.520 You are entitled at some point.
00:20:00.500 It doesn't have to be immediately when they're taking you into custody.
00:20:03.980 The interesting thing here, Matt, is in the Mark Howe case, for instance, which our firm handled,
00:20:09.520 the, we were in communications with the U.S. Attorney's Office saying,
00:20:13.100 we're happy to bring him in voluntarily.
00:20:15.060 You know, let's, let's do this civilly and so forth.
00:20:17.360 This is the classic nonviolent civil disobedience, right?
00:20:22.100 Frankly, it never should have involved feds at all.
00:20:24.760 This is clearly and purely a local matter.
00:20:27.800 So in this case, you've got pro-life folks that were involved from all over the country.
00:20:32.700 Different FBI offices handling the arrests.
00:20:36.920 Paul is the only one subject to this SWAT team kind of thing.
00:20:40.400 So our inference is, this was a decision made locally to really send the terrorism kind of message.
00:20:47.900 Don't mess with the feds.
00:20:49.220 So the Mark Howe case has come up a couple times, just so the audience knows.
00:20:53.860 He was a pro-life protester in Philadelphia, I believe.
00:20:59.100 And the case there, he got into an altercation with an abortion worker arrested at the time, if I remember correctly.
00:21:07.940 Charges are dropped.
00:21:09.060 Correct.
00:21:09.400 And then the Biden administration circles back to him.
00:21:13.980 Yes.
00:21:14.580 Just like they, just like they did here.
00:21:16.780 But what do we make of that?
00:21:18.180 That they're, you've got these cases that are thrown out locally.
00:21:21.580 It's not a big deal.
00:21:22.620 Right.
00:21:23.280 And then what is the Biden administration doing?
00:21:24.680 Are they, are they, are they combing through the books looking for, for lifers?
00:21:28.400 I think that's exactly what happens.
00:21:29.860 Remember, this is 2021.
00:21:31.980 Mark Howe's incident also, well before the magic date in all of this is June, 2022, with the Dobbs decision overturning Roe against Wade.
00:21:41.540 Biden and his administration, he issues executive orders.
00:21:44.520 They form up a reproductive rights task force, comes to the civil rights division of the DOJ and says, basically, war on pro-lifers.
00:21:52.520 So they go back, combing through the records for these peaceful events that had occurred years before, and swoop in, basically, to make a PR statement against pro-life activism.
00:22:06.000 The ostensible reason for the arrest when you were given it was, you said the FACE Act.
00:22:11.880 Correct.
00:22:15.440 I guess I would ask you first, what is your understanding of what the FACE Act is?
00:22:19.020 Sure. So, FACE is, and the reason I knew that, because it's in bold letters, because it's the acronym for the Act, which is the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances.
00:22:28.740 And so, back in the 90s, because these pro-life rescues were being successful, the federal government decided it needed a way to shut it down.
00:22:37.300 And so, basically, what the FACE Act did is it took a Class B misdemeanor local protest charge to a felony, first offense, six months in federal prison.
00:22:49.020 A second, a year or more. Steve would know more of the details there.
00:22:54.440 But that's, you know, I mean, that's basically what its purpose was and how it was designed.
00:23:00.420 And Steve, my understanding of the FACE Act, supposedly, doesn't it also, or isn't it supposed to also protect pro-life pregnancy centers?
00:23:09.020 Yes. So, as often happens in Congress, they had to have some Republican support to get this thing through.
00:23:16.840 Teddy Kennedy is shepherding it through in the Senate.
00:23:21.060 And as they reach across the aisle, one of the bones they throw to the Republicans is,
00:23:27.120 oh, well, we'll protect houses of worship and pro-life pregnancy centers, too.
00:23:30.960 So, it's like this tag-on provision in the FACE Act.
00:23:36.440 But it was always about abortion.
00:23:38.260 That's what led to, as Paul said, you know, that 77,000 Christians coming out and actually engaging at the clinic entrances
00:23:45.500 that led to the need for the feds, so they thought, to get involved in the first place.
00:23:49.760 So, it's really never been used.
00:23:53.080 The Department of Justice doesn't have any kind of guidance on how to approach houses of worship issues and so forth.
00:23:59.540 And as you are probably aware, Matt, since the Dobbs decision, and even after its argument, let alone its release in June,
00:24:08.780 hundreds of churches, pro-life pregnancy centers, have been firebombed, vandalized, you know, Molotov cocktails thrown in there, all this stuff.
00:24:18.380 There have been a total of, I think, four arrests under that.
00:24:22.360 Family Research Council, just last week, released a report regarding acts of hostility against churches and houses.
00:24:30.800 This is just the churches, not the pregnancy resource centers.
00:24:34.480 315 incidents in 2023 alone.
00:24:37.900 Zero arrests.
00:24:38.980 They're not interested in the churches and in the pro-life pregnancy centers.
00:24:42.500 Has anyone been prosecuted under the FACE Act, as far as you know?
00:24:46.200 Yes.
00:24:46.680 When we started crying foul after these arrests, they went out and arrested a couple of folks in Florida, I believe it was.
00:24:53.760 So, they have made a kind of paper effort at doing it.
00:25:00.000 But what the classic response of Christopher Wray, the director of the FBI, was when asked about,
00:25:05.620 why aren't you prosecuting these guys?
00:25:07.380 He goes, oh, those incidents occur at night.
00:25:10.040 We don't know how to find those people.
00:25:11.540 It's impossible to say, well, you can't see them at night.
00:25:14.160 I mean, you can't see them.
00:25:15.220 What are you going to do?
00:25:15.560 What are you going to do?
00:25:18.200 Tell me about, so you get to trial.
00:25:23.440 And what is that, what is that experience?
00:25:26.960 Sure.
00:25:27.260 Well, I mean, first off, we're on parole, basically, being, waiting on the trial.
00:25:33.560 So, we're reporting in every month, our salary, we can't move, I specifically can't travel out of the Central District of Tennessee.
00:25:41.580 You know, got to call in and answer all the questions and just have permission to go anywhere, basically.
00:25:47.280 So, we're on parole the whole time leading up to the trial, lengthy process, getting to the trial.
00:25:52.180 And then we get in and we get to, you know, see the jury.
00:25:56.560 And, you know, we have our pretrial the week before or whatever and get to the jury and get started on the trial.
00:26:02.640 Did you feel, how did you feel going into the trial?
00:26:04.920 Did you feel confident?
00:26:05.740 Did you feel like the deck was stacked against you?
00:26:07.260 How did you feel?
00:26:08.740 You know, it was a strange feeling.
00:26:11.100 I did not, and I think I even told Steve this from the beginning, I didn't feel like we'd see justice in the trial court.
00:26:18.080 Just because of what little bit of knowledge I have of the judicial system and the rules of evidence and the political nature of the charges.
00:26:26.700 I was hopeful.
00:26:28.080 And there were things in the trial that led us to hope, you know, that maybe it's going a good direction.
00:26:33.580 But I was not, you know, I was not shocked at the verdict.
00:26:37.320 Basically.
00:26:39.180 How many total people was it that was?
00:26:42.680 Well, so in the federal charges, there were seven of us that were charged with conspiracy and four that just had the Misdemeanor Face Act.
00:26:51.900 And so the conspiracy is the other piece of this we hadn't really got to yet.
00:26:57.620 The Conspiracy Act, and Steve will have more of the technical legal details, but basically it's the KKK Act passed in the late 1800s that was used to stop people being violent against black people when they were trying to vote.
00:27:11.340 And so they used this same conspiracy and said that it's a conspiracy against rights secured by the Constitution or the laws of our nation.
00:27:20.000 And so literally the rights that are secured now that Dobbs has fallen is the rights found in the Face Act, which is the right to access a, quote, reproductive health center or abortion.
00:27:30.960 Steve, what can you tell us about the conspiracy against rights?
00:27:34.880 Look, as Paul said, Matt, this is a statute passed with one specific intent after the Reconstruction period.
00:27:44.980 And so it was never really used outside of that actual constitutional right setting until this whiz kid who tried a Face case in Washington, D.C., Sanjay Patel, wrote an article in 2022 for the Department of Justice.
00:28:02.760 And he said, hey, here's the statute.
00:28:04.880 Maybe we can use in this context with Face, too.
00:28:08.500 So Face was passed in 1994.
00:28:10.820 Until 2022, this actually no conspiracy charge was ever attached to a Face case, certainly never a felony conspiracy.
00:28:20.980 So the way it is, we've got a first offense Face violation, maximum six months in prison.
00:28:27.660 Conspiracy here, this conspiracy against rights brings 10 years.
00:28:31.480 So this is piling on.
00:28:33.500 It's in a never before used context.
00:28:36.840 And it's against, ironically enough, civil rights, a conspiracy against rights statute that's used to punish civil rights in the peaceful civil disobedience of Christians.
00:28:47.440 Also, just from a technical legal perspective here, didn't the Supreme Court just find that you don't have a constitutional right to abortion in the first place?
00:28:57.280 So how can this be a, how do they explain it?
00:28:59.860 How can this be a conspiracy against rights that the Constitution?
00:29:01.720 I mean, really, aren't we through the looking glass in a way here?
00:29:04.620 So this clinic is no longer in existence.
00:29:08.420 Abortion in the state of Tennessee, as we sit here today, is itself a felony.
00:29:12.220 So what these folks were doing in 2021, they should be rewarded for today, right, if these practices were going on.
00:29:18.820 But it isn't until Tennessee enacts or the trigger law goes into effect and abortion becomes a felony year that they ever bring these charges.
00:29:26.960 We have argued, so we're blue in the face with the trial judge, and we will argue on appeal, that just as you said, Matt, abortion is no longer a recognized federal constitutional right.
00:29:38.200 The only right that they're hanging this by is a very, very thin thread of access to reproductive health services.
00:29:45.520 So the right to go in and get an ultrasound is what they're claiming is the federal right that gives some kind of status, jurisdiction for bringing these felony charges.
00:29:55.740 Is that a recognized federal right?
00:29:58.040 It is.
00:29:58.780 It's in the FACE Act.
00:29:59.860 Here's what happens, okay?
00:30:01.480 93, they introduce FACE, and they just say outright, it's abortion services we're talking about.
00:30:06.600 But as it works its way through and the clever lawyers work it over, they go, no, let's not call it abortion rights.
00:30:11.720 Let's call them reproductive health services because it just sounds nicer.
00:30:16.160 It's a nice euphemism.
00:30:17.280 So it includes termination of pregnancy, but it also includes these, you know, birth control and so forth rights.
00:30:23.480 So there is, as we sit here, because the FACE Act has not been repealed, on the books, a right to access reproductive health services other than abortion.
00:30:33.400 But, of course, no one in the history of the United States, I think, has ever protested the right to access ultrasound.
00:30:41.620 It's always been about abortion.
00:30:43.660 So it's, you know, it's a fig leaf is really what they've got here with the reproductive health services language.
00:30:48.440 And how did they, in your specific case, given that you weren't even arrested at the time by the police, how did they deal with that?
00:30:57.860 How did they explain that?
00:30:59.120 Did they?
00:30:59.820 Yeah, so we had one defendant that turned state's evidence on us.
00:31:03.000 I said there were seven, so there was only six in the trial.
00:31:05.160 Well, and she cut a deal, and she gave all kinds of wonderful testimony about how one of the roles of the rescuers, those blocking and committing face violations, was to have a police distraction and that that was my role.
00:31:20.740 Now, this person testified in the courtroom.
00:31:23.380 She didn't know me before the day of the event.
00:31:24.980 She initially thought I was a police officer or a chaplain, and yet her testimony against me is what they had.
00:31:31.280 That and along with a picture of me standing in the hallway against the wall, not a door, you know, working on my phone while people were talking.
00:31:40.120 One of our sidewalk crew was talking to a client there.
00:31:43.160 Do we know what kind of deal she got for that?
00:31:45.400 Not yet.
00:31:45.740 She goes to sentencing in April, I believe.
00:31:51.060 And your sentencing is when?
00:31:53.520 July 2nd.
00:31:54.980 Okay, and it's already been stated you technically face up to 10 years in prison?
00:31:59.920 Ten and a half, so six months for the face and 10 years max for the conspiracy.
00:32:06.640 Maybe you don't want to speculate, but do you, well, what do you think is going to happen?
00:32:11.720 No idea.
00:32:14.120 And I think that's, you know, it's in the judge's hands.
00:32:17.380 The judge has full discretion to do this, and then there's a secondary piece of that.
00:32:22.100 The judge also can decide whether I stay out of jail while we appeal or whether I go to jail during the appeal.
00:32:28.940 And so that's completely in her hands.
00:32:31.740 And, you know, I know this as a Christian.
00:32:33.940 God says the heart of the king is in his hands, and he will do what he wills.
00:32:36.960 And I'm willing to abide by whatever he does because he's writing the story.
00:32:42.240 And if that story takes me to jail for a time for his benefit and his glory, and that's part of the story, I'm content to submit to that.
00:32:50.660 I hope it's not.
00:32:51.800 My family hopes it's not, right?
00:32:53.240 We would love to actually see justice in a court of the Department of Justice.
00:32:58.180 But we're just waiting to see.
00:33:00.680 How are you feeling in the run-up to the sentence?
00:33:03.840 Because if I was in your shoes, I would be just overcome with rage all the time, I think, at how ridiculously unjust this is.
00:33:14.300 And also the fact that everybody involved in this prosecution must know how ridiculous this is.
00:33:20.880 From the FBI agents who arrested you all the way up to everybody.
00:33:25.080 Sure.
00:33:26.180 And sort of knowing what a farce this is and everyone's going along with it would make me just boiling with rage all the time.
00:33:32.980 You don't seem like you're boiling with rage, to your credit, but what—
00:33:36.020 Sure.
00:33:36.400 I mean, you know, you certainly get upset because one of the attributes of God is justice, and you want to see justice.
00:33:42.580 It's natural for us to desire that.
00:33:45.420 But I also know that God works through injustice to make changes.
00:33:49.580 And through this, and I'll just say this, it's not me.
00:33:53.840 God's grace arises to the occasion.
00:33:56.420 And it's what I would always tell the sidewalk counseling team.
00:33:58.900 If you want to see God move and see an abundance of grace, put yourself at risk.
00:34:03.300 Step out on a sidewalk and engage in a conversation that might be uncomfortable for you.
00:34:08.120 And allow God to use you and work.
00:34:10.280 And so I'm getting tested on that, I guess, Matt, is the big picture here.
00:34:15.040 Is, you know, we have—he's allowed us to see our national character through this case, I think.
00:34:22.580 There are at least three different stopgaps in the system, as you mentioned.
00:34:26.800 The FBI agent could have certainly done a better job and a more personal, professional job at making the arrest or refusing that order if they had the details.
00:34:37.940 The judge could have refused to allow it in her courtroom.
00:34:42.520 She's one of the constitutional stopgaps that we have for justice.
00:34:45.860 If somebody's bringing a false charge and a ridiculous trial, then the judge has the ability to say no.
00:34:53.580 And certainly the prosecution that was charged with bringing the case by their superiors could have said, no, I'm not doing this.
00:34:58.880 And then we come down to the 150 jury panel that we selected our jurors from, and we got to interview them and talk about their character and where they stand.
00:35:08.960 And I think what we see is a—you know, it's been said that in order to maintain freedom, it's a labor.
00:35:18.600 You have to work at it.
00:35:19.540 And I think what we see in our national character is, A, we are a nation of convenience, not convictions, and we don't do the hard work that it takes to maintain liberty and freedom, like knowing what a jury's duties are, like understanding right from wrong and good and evil.
00:35:37.600 And so that's, you know, that's part of the challenge we have.
00:35:41.780 And I think if God wants to tell that story and show that to us and allow us to have that conversation publicly, and it puts me at risk a little bit, I'm thankful for the opportunity to have the conversation.
00:35:53.780 What do you think this tells us about the future of America, your experience?
00:35:59.480 Yeah, that's a good question.
00:36:01.600 I think there's a lot at stake.
00:36:03.540 And, you know, Steve and I have done a few interviews.
00:36:07.620 We talk a lot about this.
00:36:09.140 And, you know, there's a spiritual and a material aspect, right?
00:36:12.500 The courtroom, you know, is—the battle is raging.
00:36:16.720 There are physical things we do and writings and documents and filings and all those things.
00:36:21.600 But there's also a spiritual battle.
00:36:24.020 And, you know, I think it's relevant that we're in the season of Lent for the church right now.
00:36:28.000 And that as a nation, we have a cultural awareness, a cultural character.
00:36:35.880 And we have the opportunity right now that as this battle is raging, we have Roe overturned.
00:36:43.300 And there's great conflict, if you will, in our nation.
00:36:46.760 And we're seeing the dividing line being made clear.
00:36:51.140 We call it left and right, Republicans, Democrats, good, evil, right?
00:36:55.120 There's all the—you can call it whatever you want.
00:36:57.800 But at the end of the day, it's really a question about who do we as an individual follow?
00:37:06.220 Do we order our life after the God who created us?
00:37:10.180 Or do we order our life after the gods of this world?
00:37:12.660 Are we more interested in money and greed and power, convenience, personal peace and affluence?
00:37:19.600 Or are we more concerned about making and understanding even a cultural sacrificial element of our being,
00:37:25.820 that as we sacrifice for others, our culture is enriched, our culture grows?
00:37:31.680 But we're at a point where we need to make that decision as a people.
00:37:36.340 And we need to rightly discern and be willing to make a difference and to step into that gap
00:37:42.480 and put ourselves at risk and make sacrifices for the sake of others
00:37:47.240 and for the sake of our children and the next generation.
00:37:50.460 Or it—ultimately, we know it will turn out well, right?
00:37:53.860 I'm an optimist.
00:37:54.720 I know God is ruling and reigning.
00:37:57.340 But if you look at church history, sometimes the way He makes changes is through persecution against the church.
00:38:02.420 And so that's what we have to understand.
00:38:06.000 And we can either sacrifice willingly and give of our own time and enter into a fasting and a prayer time
00:38:11.640 and physically going out and doing things that will help our culture.
00:38:16.140 Or we can sit back and do nothing, and those opportunities will come for us.
00:38:20.700 What do you make of the fact that—you mentioned the BLM protests.
00:38:23.960 And as plenty of conservatives have pointed out, they're throwing the book and then another book
00:38:32.420 and all the books at you right now.
00:38:34.680 And meanwhile, you know, there were people that literally burned down police stations
00:38:39.420 in the middle of major metropolitan areas and did not face 10 years in prison for it.
00:38:45.540 What do you make of that?
00:38:47.320 Sure.
00:38:47.640 I think it's part of the story.
00:38:48.960 I think that allows us to see who's where, what judge didn't lock them up,
00:38:54.940 what judge gave them a pat on the back, said, good job, you're doing good work.
00:38:58.560 I mean, as things begin to bubble to the surface, they're overflowing into the courts and into the media,
00:39:05.140 and we're able to see things for what they are.
00:39:07.400 And to me, I think this is—I think it's an important part.
00:39:10.380 I think it's a grace, even, to allow us to be able to discern where things are in our nation,
00:39:16.180 and to be able to understand that there is an agenda.
00:39:19.400 And you can say it's spiritual or you can say it's Bidenomics or, you know, the Biden mafia or whatever,
00:39:24.680 you know, or Soros or pick your bad guy of the week.
00:39:28.800 But I think those things help paint the picture.
00:39:32.160 When you got Christians being persecuted and being—risking a decade in jail for talking to a mom in a hallway
00:39:39.300 or talking to a police officer in a hallway, and you got people throwing bricks and Molotov cocktails
00:39:44.460 in federal buildings that are getting out without any charges,
00:39:48.780 it's really hard to close your eyes and deny what's going on spiritually in that environment.
00:39:54.900 Matt, can I throw in, in that context, just from the legal side?
00:39:58.080 It's just so clear, isn't it, that we are now in a day when we have a two-tiered justice system in America, right?
00:40:04.420 If you're a friend of the administration, if you're BLM, Antifa, you're supporting Hamas
00:40:10.860 and attacking the White House gates and whatever, no charges.
00:40:14.520 If you're President Biden and you have committed egregious crimes, well, you know,
00:40:18.700 he's just a kindly old man who just forgets.
00:40:20.900 We don't need to bring charges.
00:40:22.360 But if you're on the wrong political side or the wrong spiritual side,
00:40:26.260 all of a sudden, as you say, it's not even one book.
00:40:28.960 It's multiple books.
00:40:30.160 We look a whole lot more like a banana republic than a constitutional republic
00:40:34.480 that was the envy of the world, don't we?
00:40:36.860 And so from my perspective, there's a sense here, as Paul said, we're at a crossroads.
00:40:41.140 And the very foundations of our republic seem to me to be shaken.
00:40:46.200 And there are big cracks in our foundation.
00:40:49.260 And in the context of abortion in particular,
00:40:53.020 the picture that comes to my mind is it's like one of those monsters from a grade B horror flick
00:40:57.900 that has suffered a mortal blow, but it's not quite dead yet.
00:41:02.080 It's thrashing about and just trying to destroy and inflict maximum harm
00:41:06.340 to anyone and everyone in its path right now.
00:41:09.140 So there's a lot of work to be done and maybe even to kind of salvage our republic.
00:41:14.500 But we are no longer a nation of laws and not of men.
00:41:18.020 We're a nation of men and not of laws.
00:41:20.820 I mean, I don't see how you can deny the discrepancy in the enforcement of the law now.
00:41:26.800 Couldn't you argue that, I mean, if we're talking about conspiracies against rights,
00:41:31.300 couldn't you argue that putting a federal courthouse under siege for weeks at a time
00:41:35.520 is a conspiracy against rights?
00:41:37.200 Or even looting or burning down a drugstore is your right to access medical care?
00:41:45.180 Think about this, all right?
00:41:46.500 We sit in Nashville.
00:41:48.160 Downtown Nashville is littered with monuments to the civil rights movement of the early 60s, right?
00:41:53.460 Streets are named for these heroes.
00:41:56.660 The museums sit right downtown.
00:41:59.100 The public library, which is across the street from the courthouse,
00:42:02.240 huge display honoring these folks who courageously disobeyed the law by conducting sit-ins.
00:42:09.680 So here you are, you know, in this, again, just weird through the looking glass moment
00:42:14.900 where these guys are heroes.
00:42:17.160 You all are the villains who must be locked up and the key thrown away, you know?
00:42:22.680 So every single civil rights movement of our entire history could have been labeled a
00:42:28.840 conspiracy when you go there.
00:42:30.360 But we never brought those charges because we respected that foundational right that really
00:42:36.020 undergirds the entire First Amendment until today, you know?
00:42:39.600 Are you aware of a case?
00:42:41.080 I don't know if you can answer this or not, but are you aware of a case in the last few years
00:42:47.200 of a left-wing protester who engaged in any sort of civil or maybe not so civil disobedience
00:42:54.640 who was targeted as harshly as any one of these pro-lifers?
00:43:01.060 Yes, one.
00:43:02.400 It's those two that I mentioned in Florida charged under face.
00:43:06.120 And again, it was a token prosecution.
00:43:08.120 And I think their sentence, I haven't followed this up, was very light anyway.
00:43:11.700 But they threw the charge in there in order to protect against, which we have argued here,
00:43:16.120 selective prosecution.
00:43:17.520 You don't ever bring these charges against leftists.
00:43:19.900 Oh no, we've done it once.
00:43:21.080 So you can't say that now.
00:43:22.780 And that would have been a misdemeanor charge?
00:43:24.540 Well, they threw in the conspiracy felony charge.
00:43:27.680 Which I don't, as I say, think that they were sentenced very harshly at the end of the
00:43:31.340 day.
00:43:31.520 They just pled guilty and got out with a wrist slap.
00:43:34.140 But yeah.
00:43:36.600 I'm curious what the response has been from your perspective among sort of conservatives
00:43:44.320 in general.
00:43:45.140 Because from my perspective on the outside, I would like to see conservatives much more
00:43:54.320 engaged in this issue and much more concerned about your plight and the plight of the other
00:44:00.240 pro-lifers that are being targeted than they seem to be.
00:44:05.320 What's your perspective?
00:44:06.520 Yeah.
00:44:06.720 You know, we're getting a lot of support.
00:44:08.560 And there's some great people out there.
00:44:10.400 We had just phenomenal support throughout the trial, the prayer team, several hundred people
00:44:14.460 praying daily throughout the days of the trial and fasting for it and stuff.
00:44:18.000 So there is, you know, good support for it.
00:44:20.980 I think people are at a loss to know what to do.
00:44:24.420 Because, I mean, people asked me even yesterday, what can we do to support you?
00:44:27.980 I'm like, I have no idea.
00:44:28.780 Pray.
00:44:29.440 That's about all I know.
00:44:30.480 We're waiting.
00:44:31.300 And we're just trying to work and be a family and do what we're supposed to do between now
00:44:35.000 and then.
00:44:35.960 But I think there are elements, there are things that we can do.
00:44:39.960 And I think we see this growing.
00:44:41.520 There is an act in Congress and the Senate to repeal the face.
00:44:46.840 Chip Roy has put it forward.
00:44:48.980 And who did the?
00:44:49.460 Mike Lee.
00:44:49.920 Mike Lee has co-sponsored it in the other house.
00:44:54.060 And so we can certainly call them and try to get traction on getting that repealed.
00:45:02.040 But, you know, there's another piece of this, Matt, too, in the pro-life battle specifically
00:45:06.220 and getting involved in that, is we're seeing a shift.
00:45:09.420 I mean, Dobbs is great and people are touting the babies that have been saved.
00:45:13.500 And that's a good thing.
00:45:15.540 But there's also an element, kind of going back to the heart of the nation.
00:45:19.640 And if we don't win the conscience and the pro-life battle, not just on the streets and
00:45:27.400 in the laws, but actually in the hearts of the culture, what we're seeing is Carefum,
00:45:33.200 their mother company, mothership or whatever, also sells chemical abortion packets.
00:45:38.720 Their numbers they posted, for last year, they sent out 6.1 million abortion packets.
00:45:45.900 Now, 50 million babies under Roe is about a million babies a year.
00:45:49.620 So that's 6x what we had under Roe as far as surgical and clinic abortions.
00:45:54.140 So the battle's still raging, and we need to understand, like I said, we need to reach
00:46:01.360 the heart of the culture.
00:46:02.280 We need to understand that it is spiritual.
00:46:05.400 And if we don't change the heart, then the laws, you know, at the end of the day, won't
00:46:10.260 ultimately matter.
00:46:11.460 The laws typically follow the conscience and the culture.
00:46:16.460 And with the chemical abortions, do these, are these pills still being sent into the states
00:46:21.360 where it's been outlawed?
00:46:22.780 They are.
00:46:23.340 Matter of fact, I had conversations this week with reporters that are talking about that.
00:46:28.440 And I know people where they've showed up here in Tennessee where it's illegal, where
00:46:33.600 they've ordered it and received it.
00:46:35.340 And they get the instructions on how to use it, even though it's against the Tennessee
00:46:39.660 law.
00:46:40.360 That's what I was going to ask.
00:46:41.100 Is this some sort of loophole where these bans still somehow inadvertently allow for
00:46:47.500 the chemical abortions, or are they just defying the law?
00:46:49.880 I think they're defying the law, Matt.
00:46:51.560 We are, again, coming to a point where, much like pre-Civil War, I mean, what unites America,
00:46:58.440 right?
00:46:58.740 How are we the United States anymore?
00:47:00.300 When you have states like Tennessee that are committed to protecting life at all stages
00:47:05.340 and prohibiting the introduction of drugs that will take that life away, then you have the
00:47:10.380 Biden administration that will, and a lot of major corporations that will pay for you
00:47:14.760 to go out of state to get your surgical abortion.
00:47:17.060 And they're utterly, brazenly disregarding the laws that prohibit importation of those drugs.
00:47:23.240 And that's very hard to police, obviously, coming in, you know, in an anonymous package.
00:47:27.040 How do you know?
00:47:28.080 Unless you've got federal folks at the post office opening every package that comes into
00:47:32.200 your door, we probably have that for pro-lifers, but they're not going to do that for the other
00:47:36.380 side of the political aisle.
00:47:38.400 And may I tag along to what Paul was saying, too, about what can we do?
00:47:43.000 Isn't there a sense in which middle America, I'll call them for lack of a better term, has
00:47:48.200 sort of been cowed into fear of speaking out?
00:47:51.520 I mean, you're a great example of one who will stand up against the voices of the day
00:47:56.340 and the elites and actually take that courageous stand.
00:47:59.920 But most of us just want to be left alone, right, to lead the quiet and peaceable life
00:48:04.880 that Scripture talks about.
00:48:06.420 We just aren't permitted to do that anymore if we're going to be people with any real
00:48:11.460 convictions.
00:48:12.220 If we don't stand up and speak out, how can we complain when they take away the rest of
00:48:17.260 our rights?
00:48:18.200 You know, one of the core principles in the FACE Act is to protect against intimidation
00:48:24.500 of those seeking these reproductive health services.
00:48:27.360 But the fact of the matter is these prosecutions are intended, calculated to intimidate the rest
00:48:32.720 of us from taking a courageous stand on the life issue.
00:48:35.940 We just can't put up with it anymore.
00:48:40.340 You're talking about the pro-life movement as a whole.
00:48:42.740 Now, you've mentioned the 6x increase, arguably, in abortions.
00:48:49.040 To me, that paints a pretty grim view of things and of the state of the pro-life movement after
00:48:55.260 Dobbs.
00:48:56.400 Is it as bad as all that from your perspective?
00:49:00.980 I think there's kind of two aspects to it.
00:49:02.940 We are seeing victories on the gruesome and violent acts of the surgical abortions.
00:49:11.160 You see this in the D.C. case with San Angelo's clinic where there's five babies right now
00:49:19.360 that are in legal pinball between the Congress and D.C. police department of what to do with
00:49:27.060 these remains they found from this clinic.
00:49:30.200 So, thankfully, those type things are coming down, right?
00:49:35.040 We're seeing a much less gruesome activity.
00:49:38.040 But again, the heart of the nation.
00:49:39.240 I think the shift, Matt, is that we're moving.
00:49:42.540 We continue to focus on pro-life and abortion.
00:49:46.260 And really, the ultimate goal is more about population control and more about a mindset
00:49:51.940 of we can't trust God with these things.
00:49:54.960 We have to trust our fill-in-the-blank, whoever it is we're supposed to trust this week.
00:50:00.340 And I think that is going to be, you know, that's the battlefront we need to understand
00:50:04.400 and discern and then figure out how to address that.
00:50:07.800 Now, you said people ask what they can do to help.
00:50:15.160 You gave a few sort of general things, some good advice there.
00:50:19.860 But is there anything people could do to help you specifically?
00:50:22.680 Well, I mean, Thomas More is handling the appeal.
00:50:25.740 They're going to be with me all the way to the Supreme Court if needed.
00:50:27.880 And we'll continue fighting this because in the real tangible material world,
00:50:33.220 the FACE Act needs to be repealed and we need to hold them accountable.
00:50:37.300 I am hopeful once this suit is over to file a countersuit and to go after them for wrongful
00:50:43.340 prosecution and all the things that would come with that.
00:50:45.580 Obviously, a lot left to be able to determine exactly what we can do for that.
00:50:49.540 But, Matt, you know, I'd like to say this, if I can just segue off that.
00:50:55.480 There are people in prison right now from the D.C. case.
00:50:58.380 There's a handful of folks that have been locked up.
00:51:00.960 They've been found guilty, but they haven't been sentenced yet.
00:51:04.120 And they're in jail since last August, August and September.
00:51:10.380 And they're in there today.
00:51:11.700 And if I could give, there's a free Heather Idoni, I-D-O-N-I.com, is one of the, she's
00:51:19.760 a co-defendant in our case.
00:51:21.200 She was also in the D.C. Rescue.
00:51:23.060 And you can find information, you know, about them.
00:51:25.360 And I would say, you know, pray for these people.
00:51:28.460 There are sites out there where you can write letters to them and encourage them.
00:51:33.520 They're already locked up.
00:51:34.980 I mean, I'm still free.
00:51:36.400 I'm limited.
00:51:37.340 I'm still on parole and pretrial or whatever it is now.
00:51:41.020 I don't know whichever segment of the parole office I'm in, but I'm still, you know, still
00:51:45.080 have limitations, but I'm not locked up like they are.
00:51:48.120 And so we need to be praying for them and seeking justice for them as well.
00:51:51.680 I mean, I tag onto that too, Matt.
00:51:53.900 Paul's too modest to mention, but I mean, if he is incarcerated, obviously the income
00:51:57.920 dries up for his wife and children.
00:52:01.380 Only seven or so at home now, so maybe it's not a big deal.
00:52:05.040 That's one.
00:52:06.020 But another, as Paul said, you know, if it's the Lord's will to put them behind bars,
00:52:10.340 then so be it.
00:52:11.440 Heather Idoni, while incarcerated here in Tennessee, has had the opportunity to minister,
00:52:20.120 I'm not making this up, to cannibals in prison.
00:52:24.120 She is sharing the gospel with these folks who come from Lord knows where, but really violent
00:52:31.060 pasts.
00:52:32.520 And as Paul said, you know, there's no better place than to be in the center of God's will,
00:52:36.500 even when you're facing great risk.
00:52:38.180 So it's dire, but the Lord still uses these things, I mean, in extraordinary ways.
00:52:45.240 And no matter what happens at sentencing, then the fight continues, it sounds like.
00:52:49.840 Absolutely.
00:52:50.660 Continues all the way to the Supreme Court, if need be.
00:52:53.040 We'll keep fighting until God takes us out of the fight.
00:52:55.840 So, well, I appreciate you sitting down with us and the incredible courage that you've
00:53:04.080 displayed.
00:53:05.120 I wish that we had 50 million more Paul Vaughn's out there.
00:53:09.920 But thank you so much for sharing your story.
00:53:12.280 Thank you, Matt.
00:53:12.740 We appreciate the opportunity.
00:53:13.680 Thank you.