The Matt Walsh Show - What is a Woman？ Reunion

00:00:00.000 Hey everybody, this is Matt Walsh. You're about to listen to our What is a Woman reunion event.

00:00:03.860 Michael Knowles, the director of the film, Justin Falk, and I sit down with some of the main heroes

00:00:07.480 of the film to talk about what has happened over the past year since the release of the film.

00:00:11.440 Plus, the anonymous UPenn swimmer finally unveils herself. A lot going on. Thanks for listening and

00:00:16.140 enjoy the show. One year ago, transgender ideology was spreading like a pandemic,

00:00:21.260 infecting schools, workplaces, and government policy all around the country. Few people

00:00:26.340 understood the enormity of what was happening. Fewer people knew how to talk about it,

00:00:30.860 and fewer people still knew what to do to stop it. And then, Daily Wire Plus released Matt Walsh's

00:00:38.140 What is a Woman? Our biggest production to date, bringing hundreds of thousands of you into the

00:00:43.680 Daily Wire membership community, which now tops one million people. What is a woman, Joe? What is a

00:00:49.720 woman? That documentary was fantastic. What is a woman in many ways defined 2022. On social media,

00:00:55.540 the conversation surrounding What is a Woman garnered over a quarter billion views,

00:01:00.380 and the film has been watched in 70 countries. It was even screened by the Nigerian mission to the

00:01:06.140 United Nations during the meeting of the annual commission on the status of women. After What

00:01:12.300 is a Woman, Dictionary.com named Woman the word of the year. Can you please define for me what is a

00:01:18.460 woman? What is a woman? What is a woman? What is a woman? Oh, now we're getting into a whole other thing.

00:01:23.560 Not only did the movie reach a wide audience, the film led to a 1,000% spike in discussions

00:01:29.200 of the child mutilation procedures performed in the name of transgenderism. This groundswell of

00:01:35.240 public support then moved from living rooms and auditoriums into the streets and into state capitals.

00:01:42.200 Matt hosted the largest rally in the nation against radical gender ideology. He testified before the

00:01:47.700 Tennessee House and he stood by as Mississippi Governor Tate Reeves signed a ban on child

00:01:53.340 mutilation into law. As Matt continued to expose the harms of chemical castration drugs, cross-sex

00:01:59.360 hormones, and the surgical removal of healthy body parts from children, more and more state legislators

00:02:05.340 began to step up to protect children and ban these barbaric practices. Now, one year since this

00:02:12.900 historic release, we have some never-before-seen footage from what is a woman, and we'll be joined

00:02:18.280 by the heroes of the film, who will bring us some important updates to the story.

00:02:24.480 Now that everybody in the world has seen what is a woman, I'm very pleased to be joined for a reunion

00:02:31.680 by the stars of the movie. We have the director here, Justin Folk. We have the on-screen star of the movie,

00:02:39.860 the one and only Matt Walsh. I am tepidly pleased to be joined by you two. I'm extraordinarily pleased

00:02:45.960 to be joined by both of you, Dr. Miriam Grossman and Scott Nugent. First of all, thank you both for

00:02:53.500 coming in for this one-year anniversary of the film. Dr. Grossman, I'd like to start with you.

00:03:00.760 You are a psychiatrist. You're an author. You have a new book coming out, Lost in TransNation.

00:03:06.400 Very important topic, and I'm a sucker for a good pun, so I very much look forward to that book.

00:03:12.780 You're still practicing. The science seems pretty clear to me, and yet so many people in your field

00:03:20.560 have affirmed the transgender ideology, especially for children. Where does the field stand?

00:03:27.420 Well, I think it's important to begin with just acknowledging the tremendous pain that's going

00:03:36.240 on in homes all over the country because of this issue. And I think that that's sometimes lost among

00:03:44.220 all the discussions that we have on this topic, is the fact that parents are ambushed, they're caught

00:03:50.920 unaware until one day at dinner, their child announces that they're the opposite sex, and they would like

00:03:58.940 a different name, pronouns, and they would like an appointment to go get hormones. And this is

00:04:07.300 catastrophic for many families, and it ends up being the most difficult thing they've ever been through.

00:04:13.220 And the point that I want to drive home here is that this is a man-made catastrophe. This is man-made.

00:04:22.900 And that, I mean, my goal right now is to educate families so that they are prepared before this happens.

00:04:33.880 They need the education and the tools at their fingertips before this happens in their families.

00:04:42.120 So if their kid is two or five or whatever age they are, they have to understand that this may be in

00:04:49.660 the cards for them. Their kid may one day come home and make this announcement and tell their parents,

00:04:55.660 you know what, if you're not willing to support me in this journey, I'm going to find a family that is

00:05:00.840 willing to. And parents have to be prepared. So that's really the gist of what my book is about.

00:05:07.860 I think a lot of people, they just hear about this issue on TV, not from Matt Walsh, but they'll

00:05:14.540 hear about it from the establishment media, and it'll all be glossed over, and they'll be told that

00:05:20.200 if you don't engage in the transgender ideology, you're harming your children. Your children could

00:05:26.140 kill themselves. You don't want that, do you? Okay, go along to get along. Scott, you have

00:05:30.540 experienced the transgender ideology more intimately than most people have. You've seen this

00:05:36.040 up close. Your testimony in the movie, it's the most powerful part of the movie. I think it resonates

00:05:41.880 for a lot of people to see this really up close. Well, what I try to do in the movie is just tell

00:05:48.540 the truth. And, you know, when the narrative is talked to by conservatives or by people that we think

00:05:55.760 are going to have a certain position, it's gotten glossed over with the idea that, hey, they don't really

00:05:59.480 know what's going on. But as a lesbian, as somebody that's medically transitioned, I'm kind of in the

00:06:04.540 rainbow when I'm coming up and telling people that, listen, you know, all seven studies that came out

00:06:10.680 that said that medically transitioning children is beneficial have been retracted or modified.

00:06:14.500 The only one long-term study that's out there finds that these kids are going to be more suicidal

00:06:19.240 seven to 10 years after. So we're giving these kids, you know, three, four times the doses of normal

00:06:24.480 hormones. They're suicidal. They're going to be the most suicidal after. We have Europe shutting

00:06:29.160 things down left and right. We have Sweden. The spines of girls aren't fusing together properly

00:06:35.360 because of puberty blockers. We are nuts right now. And I think it's funny, in the last year,

00:06:42.420 it's been the worst year of my life. I've been kicked off of Twitter three times. I've been fired

00:06:45.660 by my non-binary manager who's married to a transgender woman. I've been kicked off of YouTube.

00:06:50.160 I mean, my life has been a nightmare. And I, of all people, have been suppressed the most with my

00:06:56.660 word because I make the most sense. And that's the truth. Right. You're telling the truth emotionally

00:07:03.800 and the medical truth as well. And that's why, you know, you and I and everyone who's doing that,

00:07:11.260 it gets into a lot. We're simply correcting the misinformation that exists. Absolutely.

00:07:17.260 And that is my concern, that parents have misinformation from the schools, from their

00:07:23.700 pediatricians, from their therapists, and from our government. Absolutely. And you talked about

00:07:29.940 the dinner table, you know, where they come out. Well, at that point, Dr. Grossman, the hook is in.

00:07:36.300 You know, from my perspective, I've been there. I never fit in. I was same-sex attracted. I skipped a

00:07:41.000 grade. All these kids don't feel like they fit in. They're either autistic or mentally gifted or

00:07:45.780 mentally ill or abused families. All the things that we don't want to admit because we think it's

00:07:50.100 so transphobic, but it's the truth. They don't fit in. And so we're telling them that they get

00:07:55.420 offended by all these people that we're supposed to believe. So that hook is in. By the time they go

00:07:59.900 home, you're dead in the water. Right. By the time, that's right. By the time the announcement is

00:08:05.120 made, you know, it's already, it's going to be tough. And they're being, the kids are given a

00:08:12.700 framework for understanding what oftentimes are just normal childhood emotions, especially

00:08:18.640 adolescence, puberty. You're feeling not at home in your own body. You're feeling like

00:08:23.660 something's not exactly right. That's normal. And then, right, is it the trans ideology comes along

00:08:29.580 and says to the kids, well, okay, you're feeling that way. Here's how to make sense of it. And then

00:08:34.680 it all kind of comes in place. And once that, to Scott's point, once that locks in place, it's like

00:08:38.980 you don't want to get rid of it. Parents are. Well, but you know what? It really starts years

00:08:42.740 before that. It starts when they're four, three, four years old and their, their nursery school

00:08:49.080 teacher reads them, I am jazz. And it says in there, I'm, I was, I'm a girl who was born in a

00:08:56.200 boy's body with a girl's brain. You tell that to a three or four year old, that's going to stick.

00:09:02.240 But why are we telling, why are we telling kids that? I mean, there, there has to be a why.

00:09:05.820 And the why is this. I think this really enlightens people. In 2015, there were 22 kids in the state

00:09:11.720 of Texas that were on puberty blockers on a four year spread that, that yields about $4.6 million

00:09:16.820 worth of profit. Two years later, after the governor started to get $2.5 million worth of donations,

00:09:24.740 it went to 4,000%. That 4,000% went from 4.6 million to just under $100 million just in that little

00:09:32.440 area. So why is it that we're medically transitioning kids? Is it because we're

00:09:36.560 enlightened or it's because we have a whole bunch of people that are in these business meetings

00:09:41.240 saying that, Hey, we're going to have the unicorn farts, the glitter bombs, the gay people are going

00:09:45.380 to be right behind us, yelling and screaming, telling everybody that they're transphobic.

00:09:48.500 We're going to be the, you know, the light. Everybody's going to buy our product. This is

00:09:50.940 going to be great. And we're going to be protected for about 10 years. We're going to make so much

00:09:53.960 money. We're going to write a check afterwards and we're going to be done. Those people that are doing

00:09:58.120 that right now need to go to prison because you're citing these studies of all the promised

00:10:03.340 benefits of the transition for adults. And especially now for kids, they're not coming

00:10:08.700 true. And the data that we have before us, including the largest data sets, the biggest

00:10:12.480 studies on it are actually showing that either they don't accomplish those goals or sometimes

00:10:17.020 they undermine those goals. When we're talking about anxiety, depression, suicidality, and all of

00:10:23.120 this we are told is in the name of inclusion. Well, look at people who have been excluded

00:10:28.640 from the conversation in the mainstream and the particular vitriol that you, Scott, have

00:10:34.020 been met with. So now we're at the beginning of Pride Month. What a great way to kick off

00:10:39.320 Pride Month all here together, telling the truth about this.

00:10:42.500 Well, first of all, let's talk about the studies, the studies that tell us what happened to these

00:10:46.920 children. There aren't any. Well, I'm going to interrupt. Oh, go ahead. We do have, I mean,

00:10:59.480 we have studies from the earlier cohort, not from the ROGD, these kids right now, but from

00:11:05.600 the earlier cohort, we have studies. They're very poor studies, very poor. And this is part

00:11:12.420 of the misinformation that parents are getting when you go to your pediatrician or you go to

00:11:16.620 this guidance counselor at school and they say, oh, you know, oh, this is all, you know, established

00:11:22.400 and well-researched and there's a consensus, there's a medical consensus. Dr. Admiral Levine

00:11:28.040 says to the whole country from Washington, there's a medical consensus. No, there is not.

00:11:36.280 And that's not transphobic.

00:11:37.620 There is a debate raging, a fierce debate, an international debate that is raging between

00:11:46.600 medical and psychological professionals on this point of how do we help these kids.

00:11:53.380 And as Scott just mentioned, Western Europe, Scandinavia, there's now a number of countries

00:11:59.440 who are doing a 180 and they are restrict, severely restricting, if not banning these medical

00:12:08.460 interventions that in this country, you can get in 20 minutes.

00:12:13.240 Our president just said that, hey, we need to trans younger, faster, and include surgeries like I did

00:12:19.060 that have a 67% complication rate. That my doctor charged my insurance company $257,000 just for him,

00:12:28.800 a total of about $357,000 before complications. After complications, we're up to 1.3 million. I get

00:12:35.260 reoccurring infections for last year. And that's going to end my life early. It's a big deal.

00:12:40.600 This is also why, I'm curious what you guys think about this, but the question of studies,

00:12:45.840 because it's correct that there aren't any reliable studies. But I tend to think that once

00:12:49.540 we get into this back and forth about we need studies, there are no studies, it's already a

00:12:54.420 losing game in some ways. Because my answer is always, when someone says, well, look at the studies,

00:12:58.740 I don't care about the studies. Because number one, this is common sense. This is just a basic

00:13:04.440 fundamental fact that a young boy who says he's a girl is not a girl. So I don't need a study on

00:13:10.080 that. And I also think that there's another point about this that I don't hear raised very often,

00:13:15.640 which is that the claim that we need to transition kids now, because if we don't,

00:13:22.440 they're going to commit suicide. Well, if that's true, and if it's also true that there's always

00:13:26.260 been all these trans people out there, and they just were, you know, this is not a social contagion.

00:13:30.800 There's always been trans people, but they just didn't feel comfortable coming out. Well,

00:13:35.240 then if we look back through history, we should find historically for centuries, just kids killing

00:13:41.040 themselves constantly because they weren't being affirmed. And that didn't even exist. And yet we

00:13:48.140 don't. That didn't exist up until very recently. The childhood suicide phenomenon is very modern.

00:13:54.140 Kids didn't start doing that until very recently.

00:13:55.760 So, you know, you have all in your respective fields pushed back against this very strongly. But

00:14:01.700 we are here at Pride Month. It's the beginning of Pride Month. Scott, you've pushed back

00:14:07.420 on that front as much as anybody. Well, what I find is that most gays and lesbians, and even

00:14:15.660 transgender people, when you get us alone, we all think that medically transitioning children is nuts.

00:14:20.900 We all think that the LGBTQ needs to be out of the school system. Unfortunately, there's not very

00:14:26.240 many people that are saying that out loud. So I came up with this idea. The whole month of Pride,

00:14:32.640 we're doing an anti-counter Pride protest run by gays and lesbians and transgender people and gays

00:14:38.440 against groomers. And we're starting what's called the Rainbow Rebellion. I have hundreds of videos of

00:14:43.420 all trans, gays, lesbians, bisexuals saying one thing. LGBTQ, get away from kids. We don't belong

00:14:50.940 there. We're a soft place to fall for adults and adults only. Perverts and money mongers get away

00:14:58.380 from children. And that's coming from the rainbow, my friend. Right, right. Rainbow.

00:15:03.380 Expect to be excluded more than just about anybody. You know, I don't stop. I don't think people have

00:15:08.940 probably gotten that by now. You're not going to stop me. Yeah. Unfortunately, though, we do have to stop

00:15:12.920 right now. We have to move on to the next segment. So wonderful to be with both of you, Dr. Grossman,

00:15:17.800 Scott. You two, you're sticking around. We've got a lot more coming up in just a moment.

00:15:35.520 What do you do inside the home usually? Do you eat inside the home or do you eat outside? Or is this

00:15:40.180 is this basically just for sleeping?

00:15:48.920 She's saying first she must to clean inside of the house every day. And they also cook inside of the

00:15:58.560 house. And after cooking, she give the young children the food supply. And she's the one to tell them time

00:16:08.900 to sleep. Is it, uh, is it hard work to keep the home?

00:16:15.900 No? No. Keeping the house clean and taking of the young children, that is their duty. So they see, like,

00:16:22.140 it's not much work. What do you think is the secret to a happy marriage?

00:16:26.060 Okay, number one, having kids. That is to make a family, to run smoothly. Because always a man

00:16:31.060 Okay, number one, having kids, that is to make a family to run smoothly, because always

00:16:48.340 a man needs a child, children.

00:16:50.980 If you have kids, that's number one.

00:16:54.300 Secondly, you take care of your husband very well.

00:16:59.060 You know, where I come from, there are a lot of people who think that the secret to be

00:17:02.780 happy is to not have kids.

00:17:18.340 In my culture where I come from, lots of people are very depressed.

00:17:21.860 Do you have depression here?

00:17:25.460 No?

00:17:26.460 No depression?

00:17:27.460 No depression.

00:17:28.460 People are happy.

00:17:29.460 People are very happy and friendly.

00:17:32.460 Can we bring them over here?

00:17:44.460 Can they teach in our schools?

00:17:46.460 Can they, I don't, I didn't see any therapists.

00:17:49.460 Yeah, we were saying we should have invited, that Paul was our translator.

00:17:51.460 We should have, it would have been nice to have him here at the round table.

00:17:53.460 Yeah.

00:17:54.460 Hard to get a hold of him, but.

00:17:55.460 Well worth the flight over here, I think.

00:17:57.460 Yeah.

00:17:58.460 That was probably the highlight of the movie.

00:18:01.460 And I'll tell you, sometimes around here when people go on filming excursions, sometimes

00:18:06.620 I get a little envious.

00:18:07.460 You know, they go to Italy or something, they go to the United Kingdom.

00:18:11.460 When you guys went to Africa in the heat and the bugs, I was not envious.

00:18:19.460 But it was worth it.

00:18:20.460 A lot of flies.

00:18:21.460 A lot of flies.

00:18:22.460 A lot of flies.

00:18:23.460 It would have been even less envious if you were in the security meetings that we had

00:18:26.460 here at Daily Wire.

00:18:27.460 We had probably three of them.

00:18:28.460 But we had to have conversations about like, what do you do if you get kidnapped by terrorists?

00:18:32.460 Mm-hmm.

00:18:33.460 And that sort of thing.

00:18:34.460 And we were informed that, Jeremy informed us he wouldn't pay a ransom.

00:18:37.460 Yeah.

00:18:38.460 At least not for me.

00:18:39.460 No.

00:18:40.460 Just how it is.

00:18:41.460 You know, I thought, we were excited to go, but the one thing going there was, we didn't

00:18:46.460 really know, it was a little bit of a fishing expedition because we didn't know exactly

00:18:50.460 what they would say.

00:18:51.460 And the whole idea was to take these Western ideas about gender and hold it up in front

00:18:57.460 of these people and just see how they react to it.

00:18:59.460 A pretty good idea of how they would react, but of course there's no way to know.

00:19:02.460 And also, Western culture has, the actual real ideological colonialism that happens on

00:19:08.460 part of the left is so pervasive that it's impossible to know how far these ideas have

00:19:12.460 reached.

00:19:13.460 And the fear, I think, comes from this ironic fact that when the libs are promoting gender

00:19:19.460 ideology, they'll often try to couch it in indigenous culture.

00:19:24.460 So they'll say, actually, the indigenous peoples of Africa and America, they've long understood

00:19:30.460 that gender is a spectrum.

00:19:31.460 They have the concept of two-spiritedness, but then you go and talk to the indigenous people,

00:19:36.460 they say not.

00:19:37.460 Well, I think that was the root of the idea itself was, I think Matt had this idea to go to

00:19:42.460 one of these places where we often hear from progressives like, oh no, this is normal.

00:19:48.460 Actually, it's happening over here.

00:19:49.460 Actually, it's everywhere.

00:19:51.460 And we just wanted to test that theory out a bit.

00:19:53.460 And we had looked at different places around the world that we could go.

00:19:56.460 We settled on the Maasai people because they're fairly open to outsiders coming in and talking

00:20:01.460 to them.

00:20:02.460 So we thought that might be a good thing and not be murdered when we showed up.

00:20:07.460 You didn't go to Papua New Guinea.

00:20:08.460 Yeah, exactly.

00:20:09.460 No, we had talked about some of that.

00:20:10.460 We talked about going to talk to the Aborigines, and Australia had really crazy COVID restrictions,

00:20:18.460 so we couldn't get in there.

00:20:19.460 But the Maasai people were perfect for this.

00:20:21.460 And to Matt's point, we didn't know exactly what they were going to say.

00:20:25.460 But it was refreshing to hear their point of view and that they weren't bogged down by

00:20:30.460 all this crazy ideology.

00:20:32.460 I mean, they're worried about other things.

00:20:34.460 They're worried about lions coming in and eating their people.

00:20:37.460 They're not worried about the crazy notions of gender that we hear every day.

00:20:42.460 And they had an important perspective, too, talk about not knowing what they would say,

00:20:46.460 which is you talk to a lot of even conservative people in America.

00:20:50.460 You say, what is a woman?

00:20:52.460 And they'll say, two X chromosomes.

00:20:53.460 What is a woman?

00:20:54.460 It's just a uterus or something.

00:20:56.460 Their answer was a little different than that.

00:20:58.460 Their answer was the woman is the one who does the duty of the woman.

00:21:02.460 It was tied to family.

00:21:03.460 It was tied to procreation and family.

00:21:05.460 Yeah.

00:21:06.460 That was their first answer.

00:21:07.460 When we first asked the question, they started talking about the duties and responsibilities

00:21:10.460 of a woman versus a man.

00:21:12.460 And the reason they answered that way is because, at first, it didn't even occur to them

00:21:15.460 that we would be asking on a more basic level than that.

00:21:18.460 They just assumed that we knew that.

00:21:21.460 But once we got past the basic stuff and they explained that women don't have penises,

00:21:26.460 then it always did come back to responsibility.

00:21:28.460 I thought it was really interesting in that clip asking her if she's happy.

00:21:33.460 And her first answer was, yeah, I'm taking care of my kids and I'm taking care of my husband.

00:21:38.460 Of course I'm happy.

00:21:39.460 Which is actually, we talked to Carl Truman in the film also, who wrote the book Rise and Triumph

00:21:43.460 of the Modern Self.

00:21:44.460 And he makes this point in the book that our conception of happiness is very modern.

00:21:50.460 And it's all tied to how we feel.

00:21:52.460 But he makes the point in the book that if you go back to your great-grandfather and you

00:21:55.460 ask him, are you happy?

00:21:56.460 He's going to immediately talk about his job, caring for his family.

00:22:01.460 And if he's doing that, of course he's happy.

00:22:03.460 And so he makes that point in the book.

00:22:05.460 And then we go to a tribe that essentially lives in the past.

00:22:08.460 And that's exactly how they think.

00:22:10.460 Now, my favorite moments in the film were really people who were not so happy.

00:22:16.460 And they didn't come back here for the reunion.

00:22:19.460 I don't know, maybe their responses are lost in the mail or something.

00:22:23.460 My favorite one was that professor guy who kept on getting so angry that you brought up

00:22:29.460 the notion of the truth.

00:22:31.460 I also loved the pixie haircut lady who entertained your suggestion that because you watched Sex

00:22:39.460 and the City, you might really be a woman.

00:22:42.460 With the hostile interviews, one, how'd you keep a straight face?

00:22:47.460 Two, how did you keep most of them in the room most of the time?

00:22:51.460 Three, did the ones who didn't catch on, did they ever figure it out?

00:22:56.460 I think, yeah, there was always, it was, one thing we discovered is like psychologically,

00:23:00.460 people don't like to get up and leave.

00:23:02.460 So we were able to exploit that.

00:23:04.460 People will stand, the people will sit there for much longer than you think.

00:23:08.460 I think also their position is so crazy that it's hard for them, you know, it's hard for

00:23:14.460 them to figure out exactly what we're going with.

00:23:17.460 But I think, you know, the whole point was we kept a neutral sort of position and we just,

00:23:24.460 and we just asked questions.

00:23:26.460 And as long as we could bring it back to the question every time they would, they would

00:23:29.460 still stand up.

00:23:30.460 But there'd always be, there'd be that moment where you could tell where something flips

00:23:33.460 in their minds and they start to realize this isn't exactly how they thought it was

00:23:36.460 going to go.

00:23:37.460 And it's always when, like the first time they get a real question, not a hard question,

00:23:41.460 but just a real one.

00:23:43.460 And it was also, it was often a question that I didn't think would send up any alarm

00:23:48.460 bells for them.

00:23:49.460 Just something really basic.

00:23:50.460 Like one question that tripped them up a lot was, okay, what is the difference between

00:23:55.460 sex and gender?

00:23:56.460 You claim there's a difference.

00:23:57.460 What is it?

00:23:58.460 Can you explain it?

00:23:59.460 And I think for every one of our hostile interviews, that question was difficult for

00:24:05.460 them in a way that I didn't think it would be.

00:24:07.460 And by the way, Matt's being pretty modest about this too.

00:24:09.460 Because I do feel that people would normally get up and leave at a certain situation.

00:24:14.460 But he just has a, it's just an amazing ability to engage but not show anything.

00:24:21.460 So they're engaging with Matt, but they're trying to read him and they're not getting

00:24:26.460 anything.

00:24:27.460 And that just kind of like, it just prolongs things a bit.

00:24:30.460 Psychopathy is I think the word.

00:24:31.460 Absolutely.

00:24:32.460 Yeah.

00:24:33.460 And so I think that actually extended things out a bit.

00:24:38.460 But what was interesting is that, you know, that we went in there and we basically broke

00:24:43.460 into their bubble.

00:24:44.460 A lot of these people are not challenged.

00:24:45.460 You know, you mentioned the professor.

00:24:46.460 Like he spends all day talking to people that just nod at everything that he says.

00:24:51.460 And so the moment he gets asked a real question, which again, to what Matt just said, was a

00:24:57.460 very basic question.

00:24:58.460 He just, just unraveled.

00:25:00.460 It was, it was, it was fascinating to watch these conversations take place.

00:25:04.460 I sort of say, Justin also had the hard job for this in many ways, but especially because

00:25:09.460 in these, uh, the really, you know, the awkward interviews, the great thing is once the interview

00:25:13.460 was over, I get to just leave and, and he has to stay there and clean up all the equipment

00:25:17.460 and stuff.

00:25:18.460 Yeah.

00:25:19.460 Which was interesting, especially for like the congressman who stormed out, but we're in

00:25:22.460 his office.

00:25:23.460 Yeah.

00:25:24.460 So he stormed out, but he's there.

00:25:25.460 And after it was over, I said, okay, I'll see you guys in the car.

00:25:28.460 Matt hits the road.

00:25:29.460 He's, he's getting a hamburger and we're like, uh, we're in there for another 20 minutes.

00:25:34.460 Sorry, congressman.

00:25:35.460 We'll be out by evening.

00:25:36.460 A lot of those interviews were, were very funny, especially, you know, the poor professor

00:25:41.460 guy used to, you just, you can't help but laugh at him.

00:25:44.460 You can't help but laugh at their befuddlement.

00:25:46.460 One of the interviews was a little bit less funny.

00:25:49.460 And it was, it was one of the people who had actually some answers to your questions.

00:25:54.460 There was really pretty dark answers.

00:25:56.460 I'm thinking about Marcy Bowers.

00:26:00.460 Marcy Bowers seems to know what he's doing.

00:26:05.460 To me, that's a hell of a lot spookier than someone who is just a little bit confused.

00:26:10.460 Has there been any update with Dr. Bowers?

00:26:14.460 Well, I, and you're right because that was one, it's probably the only person we talked

00:26:18.460 to on that side who was willing to answer questions.

00:26:22.460 And, and, and he did show a, a, a willingness to sort of admit what, what this is.

00:26:28.460 Um, and now, as far as I know, Marcy Bowers leads, uh, is now the president of WPATH.

00:26:34.460 Um, and at the time he was, he was in the organization, WPATH is the World Professional

00:26:39.460 Association of Transgender Health, which is like the number one trans organization in the

00:26:43.460 world.

00:26:44.460 Standard that all the other medical organizations follow.

00:26:46.460 And now he's, uh, in charge of that organization, which happened after, what is.

00:26:51.460 When we, when we talked to Marcy Bowers, uh, Marcy was, um, on par with breaking the world

00:26:58.460 record of the most gender, gender transition surgeries within months.

00:27:02.460 And so I assume that's already taken place by now.

00:27:06.460 That is a dark and dubious title to hold.

00:27:10.460 But there was, there were, there were dark things in that interview that, that we didn't,

00:27:14.460 that don't make it into the film just cause, just cause we got to cut down for time.

00:27:17.460 And also it went in directions that, that didn't directly have to do with the topic.

00:27:21.460 So we couldn't put it in the film, but.

00:27:23.460 Can I, can I ask what some of those are?

00:27:26.460 Yeah.

00:27:27.460 Well, one, one example that comes immediately to mind is, uh, he admitted to, um, cutting

00:27:33.460 off a person's penis who was not gender dysphoric.

00:27:38.460 And the complaint of the, the man who wanted his penis amputated was that it was ugly.

00:27:43.460 And so we had this conversation about where Marcy Bowers is justifying cutting off the

00:27:49.460 ugly penis.

00:27:50.460 And I'm asking questions about it.

00:27:51.460 And he says, well, it was a really, it was really ugly.

00:27:53.460 It was a really ugly piece.

00:27:54.460 Marcy.

00:27:55.460 Yeah.

00:27:56.460 That's that a hundred percent that happened.

00:27:57.460 Yeah.

00:27:58.460 Which is, which is ironic because Matt had just brought the point of trans ableism.

00:28:01.460 And if somebody comes into Marcy and says, Hey, I don't like my arm.

00:28:05.460 I want, I want you to cut it off.

00:28:07.460 I have another appendage.

00:28:08.460 I just don't like it.

00:28:09.460 It's a real disorder, gender or a body integrity.

00:28:11.460 Right.

00:28:12.460 And Matt had just brought that up, uh, previously, not, not minutes before.

00:28:16.460 And, and then talks about this other patient that wants to get rid of his penis because

00:28:21.460 it's ugly.

00:28:22.460 Um, and, uh, and Marcy even says, Oh, it was ugly.

00:28:25.460 I remember that moment.

00:28:26.460 It looked like, uh, what, what, what did, what did Marcy describe it as?

00:28:29.460 A rotten toadstool.

00:28:30.460 Uh, so we, we had a lot of, uh, rich description in that interview that, uh, when we.

00:28:36.460 It's amazing that the arguments all differ.

00:28:40.460 You know, I'm secretly a woman.

00:28:42.460 I have a toadstool of an appendage.

00:28:45.460 I have this, I have that, but the prescription is always the same.

00:28:48.460 Yeah.

00:28:49.460 Chop it off.

00:28:50.460 Sterilize yourself.

00:28:51.460 Try to become something that is not in accord with your nature.

00:28:55.460 A lot of pushback against all of this, including against the doctors who are a little bit more

00:29:00.460 on our side, Dr. Deborah So, who was in the movie, was spied upon giving her interview.

00:29:08.460 And, uh, there was a, a radical gender ideologue outside who accosted Deborah after the interview

00:29:15.460 and demanded that she delete the footage.

00:29:18.460 Yeah.

00:29:19.460 I'll let Justin talk about that because I know that they, but it did, it did prove exactly

00:29:22.460 the point she was making in the, uh, in the interview.

00:29:24.460 Yeah.

00:29:25.460 It was bizarre.

00:29:26.460 Cause we were, she was talking about how you're not allowed to talk about certain things in

00:29:29.460 this community.

00:29:30.460 And we had just finished the interview and she was confronted by this person.

00:29:35.460 And this person demanded that we didn't like the conversation and demanded that we delete

00:29:39.460 all the footage.

00:29:40.460 Is it that you, you didn't appreciate what I was saying?

00:29:44.460 So I, I'm, I'm not trying to offend anyone with what I'm saying.

00:29:47.460 I would, I would honestly like to understand.

00:29:49.460 You're trying to request yourself as being a scientist.

00:29:52.460 Well, I am a scientist.

00:29:53.460 This time of day that research was always done, even by the Nazis, for goodness sake.

00:29:57.460 Okay. So you're comparing sex researchers to Nazis?

00:29:59.460 I'm not comparing sex researchers.

00:30:01.460 I'm comparing the type of conclusions you're making to the same type of conclusions other

00:30:05.460 people try to make.

00:30:06.460 And I don't want to get into a debate right now about this.

00:30:08.460 I mean, I appreciate your feedback.

00:30:10.460 I wish that you would consider the things that I say based on the merit, as opposed to

00:30:15.460 it being an emotional evaluation.

00:30:17.460 I was trying.

00:30:18.460 I was trying.

00:30:19.460 I just hope you listen to the community.

00:30:20.460 I do.

00:30:21.460 And I'm coming from a place of, as I said, I grew up in the gay community.

00:30:24.460 I see a lot of what's happening right now is anti-gay.

00:30:26.460 I can't say that, but not a cis heterosexual woman.

00:30:30.460 Okay.

00:30:31.460 Would you like a copy of my book?

00:30:32.460 No, thank you.

00:30:33.460 Are you sure?

00:30:34.460 I don't know.

00:30:35.460 I heard your interview, and it was .

00:30:38.460 All right.

00:30:39.460 We are now joined by a paragon of patients, I think more patients than any of us would

00:30:49.460 have had, Dr. Deborah.

00:30:51.460 So, as well as by Sarah Stockton, another hero of the movie.

00:30:56.460 Deborah, I've got to start with you, because you know cisgender women, they're some of my

00:31:01.460 very favorite people actually, and you were castigated for being such a maligned person,

00:31:06.460 and you were attacked, rhetorically at least, by this person who had been listening in,

00:31:12.460 and because you came to certain scientific conclusions, called you a Nazi.

00:31:17.460 Yeah, clearly the face of a Nazi, if you couldn't tell.

00:31:20.460 You could tell, yeah.

00:31:21.460 A little mustache.

00:31:22.460 I mean, I literally had just finished the interview with Matt and Justin, and I was getting my jacket,

00:31:29.460 we were going out to film some B-roll outside, and all I could think was, what was I just saying?

00:31:35.460 Like, wasn't I just saying this exact thing?

00:31:37.460 And it was just very surreal to me.

00:31:39.460 In that clip, I was very Canadian in terms of how polite I was being.

00:31:44.460 Trust me, if that happened today, I would not be that nice.

00:31:46.460 I feel that my perspective and my experiences over the last year and a half since we filmed that

00:31:51.460 have changed quite a bit in terms of how I see the activists.

00:31:55.460 I mean, I before came to the table really in trying to build bridges, trying to have compassion and understanding,

00:32:02.460 and trying to compromise, and really trying to meet them halfway.

00:32:05.460 And I've realized that it's just not possible.

00:32:08.460 It's not going to happen.

00:32:09.460 These people are not interested in being reasonable, in coming to any common ground.

00:32:13.460 You know, I see Matt getting a lot of flack for some of his commentary on you as well.

00:32:17.460 And honestly, I think the people criticizing you guys are way out of line, because they do not know what it is like.

00:32:22.460 They don't know what all of us have had to deal with, with the things that we say and the harassment we face.

00:32:27.460 It's constant.

00:32:28.460 It's unrelenting.

00:32:29.460 It is unhinged.

00:32:31.460 And so, yeah, I mean, the only thing I think I would have done differently is maybe not offered my book.

00:32:37.460 I thought that was great.

00:32:39.460 And we talked about this in the green room, but I thought you handled it perfectly.

00:32:43.460 You handled it perfectly.

00:32:44.460 It was so impressive.

00:32:45.460 And it kind of, the way you're feeling about it, it kind of reminds me in some ways of the entire film,

00:32:50.460 because this is a conversation we had while we were filming it, where I would go to Justin and say,

00:32:55.460 I feel like I need to yell at these people.

00:32:58.460 Instead of just sitting there and listening to them, I need to go, we need to do one where I could just go yell at them.

00:33:02.460 Shake them.

00:33:03.460 But we always pulled back from that because we realized, no, we want to, we're being reasonable.

00:33:08.460 Let them be unreasonable.

00:33:09.460 And that contrast is really revealing, which you really find in microcosm in that clip there.

00:33:14.460 So you've had this change in your mind in terms of at least what is possible in communicating.

00:33:20.460 And I agree with you.

00:33:22.460 We've all been in political fights and the pushback from the pro-trans activists, it is another thing entirely.

00:33:30.460 It is not different in degree, it's different in kind.

00:33:33.460 And Sarah, you've obviously had a major shift in your views here because you once, your marriage and family therapist,

00:33:39.460 you once supported, advocated for...

00:33:42.460 Worked with Marcy.

00:33:43.460 You worked with Marcy Bowers, the head of WPATH and one of the people most clearly pushing transing the kids.

00:33:51.460 And you supported those policies and then you changed your mind.

00:33:55.460 Yeah.

00:33:56.460 And I think what was really weird about the documentary, it's not even just anti-trans, I got articles written about me.

00:34:04.460 They came for me around the furry segment.

00:34:07.460 And they wrote an article in which, I mean, claimed that I was lying to them because I couldn't give them a name of who I was speaking about.

00:34:14.460 And I was just like, wow, we're not even interested in the truth.

00:34:19.460 Like you said, we're not...

00:34:21.460 Isn't that a HIPAA violation to you?

00:34:23.460 Right.

00:34:24.460 Yes.

00:34:25.460 And I said, you know where I live and where I practice.

00:34:28.460 So it's a process of elimination of schools.

00:34:31.460 So I think that's been really concerning.

00:34:34.460 And since then, I get calls, I would say five, at least five a day about this from parents and counselors.

00:34:43.460 And it's way worse than I thought it was a year ago.

00:34:46.460 So what are these people calling you to ask?

00:34:50.460 I mean, so one of the big things is I got out of treating trans for about six, seven years.

00:34:57.460 So now to be back in it, now I would say I'm back 80% of my clients are dealing with this stuff.

00:35:04.460 But they are calling me because schools are transitioning their kids without parents' consent.

00:35:10.460 They are getting placed in gym classes with other genders when they're very young, getting taught this without any medical backing.

00:35:21.460 They're going to, you know, like, oh, yes, you are something.

00:35:23.460 It's not even, hey, you're going to be presenting as something as trans.

00:35:26.460 It's, no, you just decide and you will have.

00:35:29.460 So I have to explain to 17-year-olds that, no, like, you will not be a male.

00:35:36.460 You will be presenting as one.

00:35:38.460 And they don't understand that.

00:35:40.460 And so I'm very concerned with that.

00:35:43.460 And, I mean, people think I'm lying, but my son has a dinosaur in his class.

00:35:49.460 Right.

00:35:50.460 Like, what's going on?

00:35:52.460 This is way beyond, you know, reasonable.

00:35:55.460 And I think my thing that's been I'm not happy about is we're still the main practitioners talking about it.

00:36:05.460 You know, it's hard that Matt has to be the ones that are speaking about politically.

00:36:10.460 We have to, I have to hang out with the Nazis in order to talk about it.

00:36:14.460 You know, I'm, I am, you know, going to.

00:36:17.460 We're a dangerous bunch over here.

00:36:18.460 Yeah.

00:36:19.460 I knew going to you twice that I couldn't pretend that I didn't know the first time.

00:36:22.460 So, but we need to say something.

00:36:25.460 I don't know what, what is exactly going on that.

00:36:29.460 I have some counselors that are calling me, but more like Singapore, Italy have been emailing me asking for help, but not professionals here.

00:36:38.460 And I don't know what's going to take to wake up because we have to do it.

00:36:41.460 Or, I mean, I went on Jordan Peterson because we're going to start getting sued.

00:36:45.460 And I don't know when we're going to look at that.

00:36:48.460 If, if you can't be pressured by the online mob, you'll be pressured by the financial mob.

00:36:54.460 Yes.

00:36:55.460 Pressured by the legal mob.

00:36:56.460 You'll be pressured by all of these things.

00:36:57.460 What strikes me about the two of you is you're so moderate.

00:37:02.460 You're so open-minded to these views.

00:37:05.460 Because you're, you're really not ideological in, and yet it seems like perhaps because of that, people are going after you with particular vigor.

00:37:17.460 The crazy thing is I find is they don't even represent, well I can't speak for you, but for me they don't represent my views at all in terms of when they try to argue against me.

00:37:26.460 It's very much they straw man my position.

00:37:28.460 And I, at first I thought maybe they just don't understand what I'm saying or maybe they are misguided.

00:37:33.460 But I really think in some cases they intentionally misrepresent us because they don't want to have to engage with us.

00:37:40.460 They don't want to have to actually understand our position and look into it and try to understand the nuance.

00:37:45.460 It's so much easier just to make up a boogeyman and then attack that and then also get all of their friends and their colleagues to come after us.

00:37:52.460 Because when you create this horrible creation of somebody or of your critics and you demonize them, it's much easier to get people amped up and angry.

00:38:01.460 Now, what about the colleagues?

00:38:03.460 Because we talk a lot about maybe parents calling you, maybe patients calling you.

00:38:08.460 You are so prominent in terms of your fields.

00:38:13.460 Do you have colleagues calling you saying, hey, keep up the good fight.

00:38:16.460 Hey, I'm on your side.

00:38:17.460 Hey, I'd like to help out.

00:38:18.460 Or are you standing alone?

00:38:20.460 I tell people I joke that I'm the mafia boss and I don't know what of what.

00:38:25.460 But I mean, people call me, well, what are we going to do about it?

00:38:29.460 Like, what's the next step?

00:38:31.460 I talked to Matt.

00:38:32.460 That was step one, I guess.

00:38:33.460 I don't know what's next.

00:38:34.460 But yeah, I mean, I do get a lot of calls saying, well, what can we do?

00:38:39.460 Is there a group?

00:38:40.460 Is there something?

00:38:41.460 And I think we're developing it.

00:38:43.460 I've been working a lot with Stella O'Malley in Ireland because they have, and GenSpec, they seem to be doing something.

00:38:48.460 But we don't have a professional group yet here, and I don't know why.

00:38:52.460 But are these people willing to go public?

00:38:55.460 Remains to be seen.

00:38:57.460 They want to be on a list.

00:38:59.460 They want to be on the list.

00:39:00.460 On a secret list.

00:39:01.460 Yes.

00:39:02.460 That's why, because I get the same question all the time.

00:39:05.460 What can we do about it?

00:39:07.460 And the answer is, well, you can start by saying something.

00:39:10.460 Yeah.

00:39:11.460 Rather than, because it's, if we're out here, and we have the mob descending on us and ripping us to shreds, and you're, like, hiding off in the bushes somewhere, it's like, hey, good job out there.

00:39:21.460 Atta boy, buddy.

00:39:22.460 Right.

00:39:23.460 The best thing that you, so rather than, because I think we tend to think of this in, like, general terms and think, well, what can society do?

00:39:29.460 Yeah.

00:39:30.460 Well, what can you individually do, and especially if you're in a professional field that deals with this, just to say anything publicly to indicate that you're one of the sane ones would be a huge first step, at least.

00:39:44.460 And I am surprised.

00:39:45.460 It seems like the sports is going the farthest, and I wouldn't have guessed that.

00:39:50.460 But it's because they're speaking out.

00:39:52.460 There's five of them, at least.

00:39:54.460 You know, I don't have, I mean, maybe a couple of us therapists, right?

00:39:58.460 But that has surprised me that that's what might take it farther is that in jail.

00:40:04.460 You know, you have insight not only on the issue of sex and gender.

00:40:08.460 You also have incredible insight into media, because we are now about to be joined by people who are fighting this battle in the realm of women's sports.

00:40:17.460 And from the perspective of one of the groups that is most attacked by transgender ideology, and that is young women.

00:40:24.460 Mm-hmm.

00:40:25.460 Let's say a male says, I'm a woman, doesn't bother you that he says that?

00:40:28.460 No.

00:40:29.460 But do you think it's true, though?

00:40:31.460 No.

00:40:32.460 I don't think it's true, but I will not disrespect the person.

00:40:34.460 I think for probably most of human history, this would have been the most uncontroversial question in the world, right?

00:40:39.460 Like, what is a woman?

00:40:40.460 Nobody, well, we know what a woman is.

00:40:42.460 Yeah.

00:40:43.460 So why is it controversial now?

00:40:45.460 Because you don't want to hurt anybody's feelings or you say the wrong thing.

00:40:50.460 Be respectful and abide by what they would prefer to be called as.

00:40:54.460 I don't want to be a man, and I don't want to date a man that's a woman, or a woman that's a man.

00:40:59.460 But, you know what?

00:41:01.460 To each their own.

00:41:02.460 America has landed a free, you know, so whatever makes you happy, you know, you do what you do so long as you're not hurting anybody in the process, you know?

00:41:09.460 If you can't respect somebody for who they is, you can't get along with nobody in this world, you feel what I mean?

00:41:13.460 Like, what you got going on don't bother me, like, at all.

00:41:16.460 So I feel like it's kind of messed up when people hate crimes or gender bash, or I guess what it's called.

00:41:24.460 People are free to do what they want and be who they want now that they could never have done 20 years ago, 30 years ago, 40 years ago.

00:41:31.460 That's very clear.

00:41:32.460 Are you a conservative pundit?

00:41:33.460 What's that?

00:41:34.460 Are you a conservative pundit?

00:41:35.460 I'm conservative, yeah.

00:41:36.460 Yeah, okay, cool.

00:41:37.460 Oh, okay.

00:41:38.460 Yeah, never mind.

00:41:39.460 Thank you.

00:41:40.460 Okay, well, thank you so much for that conversation.

00:41:42.460 The main question I think we face as a society with this issue is what is a woman?

00:41:47.460 Wow, that's, I think...

00:41:50.460 It's what you feel comfortable with.

00:41:54.460 I don't know.

00:41:55.460 What do you, what do you say?

00:41:56.460 Biologically capable of giving birth.

00:41:59.460 And you have...

00:42:01.460 I'm light and love.

00:42:02.460 I'm not going to put definitions on anything.

00:42:04.460 Okay.

00:42:05.460 This is not my job.

00:42:06.460 It's not what I've been put on earth for.

00:42:09.460 I'm just going to put love and light everywhere I go.

00:42:12.460 And whenever you, you, you, you, you, you decide what you think you want to be, what you are, what you decide tomorrow, I'm still going to love.

00:42:21.460 In the most simplest terms, a human being that can carry and deliver a baby.

00:42:29.460 We've got two paragons of light and love with us right now, two heroes of the fight to protect women's sports.

00:42:34.460 Before we get to that, though, I don't want to get too off track, but I feel we have to address the 180 pound naked man in the room.

00:42:46.460 180 pounds is generous, by the way.

00:42:48.460 I was trying to be polite to the...

00:42:51.460 How'd you, how'd you meet him?

00:42:53.460 I mean, I was, I was forced into that.

00:42:56.460 It's like a form of workplace violence, really.

00:42:58.460 I was forced to have that conversation with a naked man.

00:43:03.460 Forced by one Mr. Justin Falk.

00:43:05.460 Yeah, I was not, we saw the guy walking by and Justin said, we should talk to that guy.

00:43:09.460 And I said, no, we shouldn't.

00:43:11.460 And next thing I know, I look over and he's talking to the guy and motioning me over.

00:43:15.460 I'm like, Matt, you got to commit to this.

00:43:17.460 If we're going to make this film, you know, a naked guy's got to be part of this at some point.

00:43:22.460 And here's our opportunity.

00:43:23.460 So, let's go talk to this guy.

00:43:25.460 I'm just, I'm really glad that you guys did not curse us with the wide shot on that interview.

00:43:30.460 That was relatively close up.

00:43:31.460 Ladies, wonderful to have you with us on the topic of protecting women's sports.

00:43:38.460 So, Selena, we've seen you in the movie.

00:43:42.460 You were a high school athlete.

00:43:44.460 You have now been one of the main leaders of the fight to keep men out of the women's locker room.

00:43:51.460 Paula, we have not seen you before.

00:43:53.460 We've heard from you.

00:43:54.460 But we have not seen you before because you were obscured.

00:43:58.460 You were in shadows in the movie for fear of retribution here.

00:44:02.460 And now the shadows are gone and you're telling us exactly who you are.

00:44:06.460 You are a former UPenn swimmer who swam on the team with that dainty swimmer, William Leah Thomas.

00:44:17.460 Is that right?

00:44:18.460 They're right.

00:44:19.460 Yeah.

00:44:20.460 Yeah.

00:44:21.460 And so, I think one of my biggest things was at that time I was still a student at Penn.

00:44:24.460 You know, obviously you can't go to the university.

00:44:26.460 Like, the university you go to, you can't go bash them publicly while you're still a student there.

00:44:31.460 I'm a year removed from that now.

00:44:33.460 And I think also there was pressure from my family to do the traditional thing and go, you know, be quiet, sit at your desk, do a corporate job.

00:44:40.460 And it's taken about a year of discussions within my family to realize it's time to come out.

00:44:46.460 So, here I am.

00:44:47.460 No shadows.

00:44:48.460 Did you fear reprisal?

00:44:50.460 Yeah.

00:44:51.460 I mean, I had already received a lot of backlash internally from people I knew at school from just speaking out anonymously.

00:44:57.460 From classmates or from administrators?

00:45:00.460 Classmates and teammates and professors also that knew about it as well.

00:45:04.460 Wow.

00:45:05.460 Yeah.

00:45:06.460 Wow.

00:45:07.460 But at this point, cat's out of the bag.

00:45:09.460 You feel you've got to come out and speak up.

00:45:11.460 Yeah.

00:45:12.460 And I think, like, people like Selena, like, obviously inspires me.

00:45:15.460 And I think, like, you've done so much in the fight in litigation.

00:45:18.460 And it's been wonderful.

00:45:19.460 And I'm also from Connecticut as well.

00:45:20.460 So, that does hit a little close to home.

00:45:22.460 And I've known about her story.

00:45:23.460 And just knowing that we need to stand up for other girls.

00:45:26.460 I'm not swimming anymore.

00:45:27.460 I'm never going to compete competitively again, most likely.

00:45:31.460 So, it's not about me.

00:45:33.460 And it's about everyone else that needs to be protected.

00:45:35.460 And obviously, she's got a huge part of that fight.

00:45:38.460 She's doing such great things already.

00:45:40.460 And I want to join her.

00:45:41.460 Selena, I remember when I came across your story years ago, I guess, at this point.

00:45:45.460 And you were running in Connecticut, high school athlete.

00:45:50.460 And you start to have your accolades taken away by men.

00:45:56.460 Yeah.

00:45:57.460 I had to compete against at least one biological male throughout all four years of high school

00:46:01.460 after a year and a half.

00:46:03.460 One that competed as a man for three seasons.

00:46:05.460 I had to switch over to the girls' team and began to dominate in the girls' field.

00:46:10.460 And I never had a fair race when I raced against those two athletes.

00:46:14.460 We knew before we even got into the blocks, before we even got on the bus to get to the

00:46:19.460 meet, that we knew that we were going to come third and beyond, that there was no way that

00:46:22.460 we were going to be able to come in first.

00:46:24.460 And they would be done with the 100-meter dash, chest bumping each other while the rest

00:46:28.460 of us girls were at the 80-meter mark.

00:46:30.460 It was just never a fair contest.

00:46:33.460 So then what impelled you to bring this to court?

00:46:36.460 I mean, you have in many ways been leading the legal fight on this issue.

00:46:40.460 Why didn't you just sort of say, okay, well, I guess I'll take second place.

00:46:44.460 I guess I'll take third place.

00:46:45.460 I don't want to rock the boat.

00:46:47.460 So my mother and I actually began fighting it locally.

00:46:51.460 We did it old school with the petition going around to other people at meets.

00:46:55.460 And once I lost down on qualifying for the New England Championships in the indoor season

00:47:00.460 in 2019, when I was at that meet and two other events, I ended up getting all New England

00:47:05.460 honors in those two events.

00:47:06.460 So I was forced into the sideline in the 55-meter dash.

00:47:09.460 That was my last straw, and I said that we need to ask for these policies to be restored

00:47:14.460 and let women have their fair chance at sports.

00:47:17.460 And filing the lawsuit was the last resort.

00:47:20.460 We talked to school administrators, legislators.

00:47:22.460 We talked to the CAC.

00:47:24.460 They didn't want to deal with this issue.

00:47:26.460 They shifted around the blame.

00:47:28.460 We had no choice but to file the timeline complaint and then the lawsuit.

00:47:34.460 So you didn't rush to court.

00:47:36.460 You tried to pursue these other avenues.

00:47:38.460 Those were shut off to you.

00:47:39.460 So, I mean, you've been following these cases as long as I have.

00:47:44.460 We've got a kind of a conservative court, but the court also seems to be affirming the

00:47:48.460 transgender ideology.

00:47:50.460 How is this going to turn out?

00:47:52.460 I'm not sure exactly how it's going to turn out, but I'm hoping that we will have a resolution

00:47:57.460 in our favor someday and that there's some out there that will take a stand to protect

00:48:03.460 women's sports because it's the right thing to do.

00:48:05.460 I have a question for you, Selena.

00:48:06.460 So, the first year that you had to race against a male, what year was that?

00:48:10.460 That was 2017, my freshman year of high school.

00:48:13.460 So, I'm curious for you.

00:48:15.460 2017, that's years before most people really woke up to this issue.

00:48:20.460 So, it was a very lonely fight early on.

00:48:23.460 So, how did that feel early on when you were struggling against this and hardly anyone was talking about it?

00:48:28.460 And how do you feel the progress has been culturally on this issue?

00:48:32.460 Well, I warned everyone that this wasn't going to be an isolated incident when I started speaking out in 2018.

00:48:37.460 And now it's appearing in almost every sport at every level internationally.

00:48:43.460 But I'm so glad that there are other girls out there, like Paula, that have decided to stand up and join me in the fight.

00:48:52.460 Because it's going to be much easier to fight this with the more voices that we have.

00:48:55.460 Paula, the man who swam on your swim team, I think got a lot of national attention because it was just so obvious.

00:49:05.460 It was, he's just a big, giant guy.

00:49:08.460 And what was most disturbing about Will Thomas' rise as a student athlete was not even him taking the trophies and him appearing in the leotard or whatever.

00:49:18.460 It was the leotard, as it were.

00:49:21.460 Wow, I'm a sucker for it.

00:49:23.460 Call it whatever you want.

00:49:25.460 I was most disturbed by the other girls on the team who had to pretend that it was all okay.

00:49:33.460 So, yeah, I mean, I mentioned this in an interview I did with Matt, but the brainwashing the university put on, like, I honestly give the University of Pennsylvania props.

00:49:42.460 There was a girl on the team who was so upset, crying about it, saying, like, she spent the same events as Leah.

00:49:48.460 And went to go meet with someone in the athletic department and came back from the meeting and was like, we're going to be so supportive, we're going to just spread love.

00:49:55.460 I don't know what went on in that meeting.

00:49:57.460 And there was meetings that they had with the whole team that worked.

00:49:59.460 And I mentioned this also with Matt that, you know, there was a night after they met with us and I called my family on the phone and I said, I can't talk about this anymore.

00:50:06.460 I said, I need to be quiet.

00:50:07.460 I need to just, and I literally stayed in my room for two and a half days without leaving.

00:50:11.460 Because I was so scared that, like, someone was going to come up to me and say, how dare you speak about this publicly or anonymously to the media or any way at all.

00:50:19.460 It was just, like, they did such a great job of instilling fear in everyone.

00:50:22.460 One of the most disturbing things from the film for me was when you talked about how the university came and met with all the female swimmers and they offered all of you counseling if you could not bring yourselves to accept Leah Thomas as a woman.

00:50:38.460 Because you're the ones who have a psychological problem in that, not Leah Thomas, it's you.

00:50:43.460 It's gaslighting.

00:50:44.460 It's gaslighting.

00:50:45.460 I believed that I had a psychological problem.

00:50:47.460 I got my own therapist and I, like, tried to talk to a therapist about it.

00:50:50.460 I'm not even kidding.

00:50:51.460 You're kidding me.

00:50:52.460 No, for a moment, I was like, maybe I'm just not being accepting.

00:50:54.460 Like, I did have this one moment where I was like, maybe I'm missing something here and I need help.

00:50:58.460 Maybe.

00:50:59.460 I did one session and I was like, no.

00:51:01.460 I know that I'm right.

00:51:02.460 I know that this is the truth.

00:51:04.460 And I'm not going to let someone tell me that that's not right.

00:51:06.460 It reminds me of that old TV show, The Munsters.

00:51:09.460 I watched it on reruns.

00:51:10.460 I'm not that old.

00:51:11.460 The Munsters is this family of monsters who are all scary vampires.

00:51:14.460 And there's one beautiful blonde woman.

00:51:17.460 And she thinks she's the ugly one.

00:51:19.460 Because she doesn't.

00:51:20.460 And it makes me think of you where you say, I don't think that men are really women.

00:51:25.460 And I don't think women should be forced to compete against men.

00:51:27.460 I guess I'm the crazy one.

00:51:29.460 I guess I'm the hateful one, the irrational one.

00:51:31.460 Yeah.

00:51:32.460 This therapist talked me through, like, why people are transgender and, like, what transgenderism

00:51:36.460 is and, like, why it's so important for them to be, you know, transitioning and whatever.

00:51:42.460 And I was like, and again, like, I'm a very loving and caring person.

00:51:45.460 And, like, when you play on my heart strings and, like, you tell me something emotional,

00:51:49.460 like, you do get me.

00:51:50.460 And there's a few moments where I was like, oh, wow, maybe I'm really in the wrong here.

00:51:54.460 And then it was very brief.

00:51:56.460 It was, like, 12 hours.

00:51:57.460 And then I was, like, right back to this is so unfair and this is not right.

00:52:00.460 And we need to tell the real truth.

00:52:02.460 I thought it was interesting.

00:52:03.460 Everybody we talked to in the film, though, was on the other side of this.

00:52:06.460 They all had the same exact argument.

00:52:08.460 They said, no, this isn't really happening.

00:52:10.460 If, you know, a biological male trans woman wins an event, it's kind of an anomaly.

00:52:16.460 It just happens.

00:52:17.460 They just happen to, like, maybe work harder than the rest of the girls.

00:52:21.460 But really, like, I think Rodrigo, who's the guy from the Transgender Center in Washington, D.C., said this.

00:52:28.460 I think Marcy Bowers said it.

00:52:30.460 They basically discounted the fact that anybody's actually affected by this.

00:52:34.460 There aren't any real victims.

00:52:36.460 And by doing so, they're basically denying biological reality.

00:52:42.460 And you got to see that biological reality probably a little bit too up close than you wanted to.

00:52:48.460 Yeah, definitely.

00:52:49.460 And I know Selena has as well.

00:52:51.460 Like, she was showing me some pictures in the green room of some of these athletes that she had to race against.

00:52:57.460 And, you know, let's just say they're very obviously male.

00:53:00.460 And the establishment that's been pushing this ideology, it's not showing any signs of holding up.

00:53:06.460 I mean, clearly, even just from the courageous work that you are doing, there is a pushback by the people here.

00:53:12.460 But by women and men and all sorts of people.

00:53:15.460 But the elites who are pushing it, they're not letting up.

00:53:18.460 And in certain other countries, I think of America's top hat up in Canada, they've gone even further on this ideology.

00:53:24.460 And we have our Canadian friend Jordan Peterson coming up to discuss what's going on up there.

00:53:29.460 Thank you both for coming on.

00:53:31.460 Thank you both for fighting this fight when a lot of other cowardly people want to run away from it.

00:53:36.460 You've done a wonderful job of that.

00:53:39.460 If you think things are bad here in the United States, just think about the father who was up in British Columbia and was arrested for, quote unquote, misgendering his daughter.

00:53:48.460 Hey, can you hear me?

00:53:49.460 I can hear you.

00:53:50.460 Yes.

00:53:51.460 Well, hey, thanks for thanks for taking a moment to talk to us again.

00:53:54.460 Yeah, no problem.

00:53:55.460 So your your story in What is a Woman is one of the I think one of the most powerful parts of the film.

00:54:00.460 And it's it's one that I get asked about probably the most people want to know where it stands right now, what's happening with your case.

00:54:07.460 So something would just jump right into it.

00:54:10.460 I mean, first of all, are you still banned from talking publicly about your your story?

00:54:16.460 I am. Yeah, I'm still under my own gag orders.

00:54:19.460 Then there's publication bans on top of that for everybody else.

00:54:22.460 So, yeah, none of that has changed.

00:54:24.460 And I know in the What is a Woman documentary, you know, I think the last thing mentioned there was I was going to court in November and that's been delayed.

00:54:36.460 So my court day is actually tomorrow.

00:54:39.460 Why was it delayed?

00:54:40.460 In this case, it was my delay to get it to tomorrow where I'm appealing the sentence.

00:54:45.460 I was a first time offender by telling a story about my child that I thought everyone deserved to kind of know what was going on in the schools and the reality of what parents were not being told.

00:54:56.460 And I do interviews on that.

00:54:58.460 And I guess six month prison prison sentence is a first time offense.

00:55:01.460 And so that's why tomorrow is important is because this is the precedent that this government here is trying to set as a deterrent for any parent that, you know, has a child going through this decides.

00:55:12.460 Hey, I want to make some noise and say something what's going on, but they they're going to understand that, you know, they're facing a humongous penalty for saying anything in opposition to this agenda.

00:55:22.460 My best case scenario is that I walk out of court in the next number of days, however long this takes.

00:55:28.460 And in the panel of three B.C. Supreme Court judges, at least two of them agree that my two months was sufficient and that is the penalty.

00:55:37.460 And I walk away with time served. So there's a bunch riding on this.

00:55:41.460 I mean, not just for me personally. I mean, obviously, for me personally, it's obvious what's riding on it for months of jail.

00:55:46.460 But even for people in British Columbia and in Canada, there's a lot riding because that's a big deterrent to go from two months to six months.

00:55:53.460 If you lose tomorrow, if the tyrannical side wins out, what what happens to you then?

00:55:57.460 My lawyer says 70 percent chance I'm going back to jail to finish out that term.

00:56:01.460 She says she's never seen the government behave in this way.

00:56:04.460 She's like they have made this their top priority. This case are not letting it go.

00:56:08.460 You're saying that's that's based on the political bias against you.

00:56:11.460 The government is just determined to see this all the way through.

00:56:16.460 That's it. Yes, because in any other case, common sense would almost dictate that, you know, I've been out on bail now for about two years and my bail conditions are pretty strict, like super strict.

00:56:30.460 And so one would think in any other case, it'd be like, fine, he's already spent a couple of months in jail anyways.

00:56:35.460 Let's just let this go. But they won't. And that's exactly it.

00:56:40.460 Like you were saying. And what my lawyer says, too, is that it's just so political.

00:56:43.460 They just have to see this through. They've got to make this example.

00:56:46.460 How are you how are you personally feeling heading into tomorrow?

00:56:50.460 You know, I was optimistic, but I just because I don't see anything changing politically, the climate here in British Columbia.

00:56:58.460 And I face it as if I expect the four months. However, you know, if if I get good news, then obviously I'll be I'll be thrilled.

00:57:06.460 But I'm mentally prepared for what I think is going to happen, which is kind of the worst case scenario.

00:57:11.460 What do you think needs to happen in Canada to start moving it in the direction of sanity and common sense?

00:57:18.460 I have no idea. You know, it's because you would think we'd be there already.

00:57:22.460 U.S. states seem to be heading in the in the direction of common sense, at least many states watching some of the stuff going on in the states, the battles.

00:57:30.460 But wow, I'm so impressed. And like I said, I know you were part of the thing in Tennessee with the signing there with the governor.

00:57:37.460 And Canada is doubling down on this stuff. I think they are. They see what is happening and they and I think feel like somehow we are the safe haven for perversion.

00:57:46.460 Like I'm watching this euthanasia stuff sweeping in right now. And I know we're the laughing stock of the world.

00:57:52.460 I mean, a poll just came out that apparently Canadians are 30 percent in favor of euthanizing poor people.

00:57:58.460 And I have people I know that have physical and mental handicaps and they're terrified.

00:58:03.460 The child in high school who's 12 years old can say, you know, I just broke up with my girlfriend or I are, you know, I just failed the test.

00:58:12.460 I'm feeling really depressed. I would like to be euthanized.

00:58:15.460 And the parents get a call because they don't need any parental consent, just like they did with my child when it came to the sterilization and the hormones.

00:58:25.460 And they'll say, yeah, your child is a funeral home. I've been trying to wake people up for five years in this country.

00:58:30.460 And I don't know. I mean, thank God people are waking up in the U.S. like it wasn't in vain.

00:58:37.460 Well, at least it starts. It's got to start with it with a voice in the wilderness, which is which is which is what you are.

00:58:42.460 And we really appreciate your your courage.

00:58:45.460 And we're pulling for you. We're praying for you.

00:58:49.460 And thanks again for for talking to us.

00:58:52.460 Yeah, no, thank you. And congratulations.

00:58:54.460 Yeah, one year has one funny June one month.

00:58:57.460 Yeah. Yeah, it's a good. It's a good time. It's a good, good, good anniversary to have it.

00:59:02.460 OK, thank you. All right. Thank you.

00:59:06.460 Had I not heard that interview, I would not have believed it was possible for a man to actually be sent to prison for calling his daughter she.

00:59:17.460 Well, maybe I would have joked about it. I said that happens in North Korea.

00:59:20.460 That is happening in America's top hat.

00:59:23.460 And we are now joined by a Canadian who knows this sort of thing firsthand.

00:59:27.460 The great Dr. Jordan B. Peterson.

00:59:30.460 Jordan, thank you for making it for this one year reunion of the movie.

00:59:34.460 How is that real?

00:59:37.460 Well, laws have consequences.

00:59:40.460 You know, when this broke back in 2016, when the law making it illegal to not use someone's pronouns, let's say, was passed.

00:59:51.460 I was assured by the legal scholars, so to speak, some of whom were from British Columbia, that my concerns that this would ever result in, you know, genuine legal penalties, penalties like prison.

01:00:03.460 That was just scare mongering on my part.

01:00:06.460 And I thought, well, it's a law.

01:00:10.460 If you break the law, then you're put in court.

01:00:16.460 And if you don't stop, then you're going to be subject to the full penalties of the law.

01:00:22.460 Because that's what a law is.

01:00:24.460 And so, and here we go.

01:00:26.460 You know, and his case is absolutely catastrophic.

01:00:29.460 And you might say, well, it's an isolated incident.

01:00:33.460 First of all, incident like this is not isolated.

01:00:35.460 And second of all, there's all sorts of crazy things happening in Canada.

01:00:39.460 So, you know, you walk in the direction you aim at.

01:00:45.460 And this is where Canadians aimed.

01:00:48.460 And I think my country, you know, for a long time you could be complacent in Canada because fundamentally the institutions were sound.

01:00:56.460 You could essentially trust the political parties.

01:00:59.460 You could trust the socialists to represent the working class to the degree that they did that.

01:01:04.460 The Liberals were a centrist party.

01:01:06.460 The Conservatives were the party of big business.

01:01:08.460 Everyone knew that.

01:01:09.460 People were playing basically a straight game.

01:01:11.460 The newspapers were trustworthy.

01:01:12.460 So were the educational institutions and the courts.

01:01:15.460 That's all done with.

01:01:17.460 We're done with that.

01:01:18.460 And maybe worse in Canada than anywhere else.

01:01:21.460 Maybe worse than New Zealand.

01:01:23.460 Yeah, it's quite something.

01:01:25.460 You know, there's a bit of positive emerging, I suppose.

01:01:28.460 Pierre Polyev, who's the leader of the Conservatives, seems to have a spine.

01:01:32.460 Danielle Smith maintained control over Alberta and its fossil fuel resources in an election that was insanely close.

01:01:39.460 The socialists just about got control of the third largest oil reserves in the world.

01:01:45.460 That was two days ago.

01:01:47.460 Scott Moe, who runs Saskatchewan, he's got a bit of the spine and he's standing up to Trudeau.

01:01:51.460 And so, you know, it's possible that this will be reversed.

01:01:54.460 But Canadians just have their, they're completely asleep on this.

01:01:59.460 And you did see it coming.

01:02:00.460 It occurs to me just now.

01:02:01.460 Yeah.

01:02:02.460 You first came to public consciousness.

01:02:03.460 I told the Senate what was going to happen.

01:02:04.460 You know, it's amazing because you've done so much since all this time that you kind of forget how you first came to public consciousness.

01:02:11.460 It was over this issue.

01:02:13.460 Absolutely.

01:02:14.460 Wow.

01:02:15.460 Yeah, well, I knew that compelled speech was a catastrophe.

01:02:18.460 It's like the government made a law saying what you had to say.

01:02:24.460 No political system derived from English common law tradition had ever done anything like that.

01:02:30.460 In fact, the Supreme Court in the United States made that unconstitutional.

01:02:33.460 Ruled that that was unconstitutional, I think, in 1942.

01:02:36.460 Like, explicitly.

01:02:37.460 And, you know, I watched that bill go through.

01:02:40.460 I thought, what the hell is going on here?

01:02:42.460 I really didn't care one way or another about the trans issue.

01:02:45.460 You know, although that's become just this unbelievable, bloody, catastrophic parody.

01:02:53.460 It's murderous, you know.

01:02:55.460 And, well, here we are.

01:02:58.460 That's what happens when you let the government control your speech.

01:03:01.460 Yeah, I think also, you know, the groundwork for this is it's before the law.

01:03:07.460 So that's what, you know, in the United States, we look at what's happening in Canada.

01:03:11.460 And we like to think that, well, it's not going to, it's not going to, it's inconceivable that we would throw parents in prison here for misgendering their kids.

01:03:19.460 Yeah, they'll do it in California.

01:03:21.460 They'll do it.

01:03:22.460 Oregon.

01:03:23.460 They'll do it.

01:03:24.460 And one of the reasons that they'll do it before the law, we just listen to the words that they're using, listen to the arguments that they're making.

01:03:30.460 And the moment that they tell us that misgendering is a form of violence.

01:03:34.460 Yeah.

01:03:35.460 And that if you're misgendering, you're a terrorist and it's abusive, they're already saying all of that.

01:03:39.460 And if that's true, like if it's true that it's violent abuse to misgender someone, then you should go to prison for it.

01:03:45.460 But it's not true, obviously.

01:03:47.460 So the moment they win that argument and people accept that, then all the rest of this is just.

01:03:52.460 It follows.

01:03:53.460 It follows logically.

01:03:54.460 Right, right.

01:03:55.460 Well, that's the problem with things that follow logically is they follow.

01:03:57.460 So, yeah.

01:03:58.460 I have to wonder, especially from your perspective as an academic and a public intellectual,

01:04:03.460 I don't want to sound like an old ornery man saying things always used to be better in the past and kids these days don't know anything.

01:04:09.460 When I look at the commencement exercises from Harvard and Yale and Princeton in the 18th century, 19th century, early 20th century,

01:04:17.460 they were debating serious philosophical epistemological questions in Latin, Greek, and Hebrew.

01:04:23.460 And today, the people at the elite universities are listening to entertainers crack jokes with no point whatsoever.

01:04:31.460 The education is just gone.

01:04:33.460 Our sense of ourselves and our political order is just gone.

01:04:37.460 Is this a crisis of the elites?

01:04:40.460 I mean, if we don't know the answer to the question, what is a woman?

01:04:43.460 The universities are done.

01:04:45.460 You know, when Elon took over Twitter, he fired 80% of the people.

01:04:51.460 I've heard through the grapevine that he probably has to fire half of the remaining 20%.

01:04:56.460 That seems like that's apparent now.

01:04:58.460 Yeah, right, right.

01:04:59.460 And the universities are in the same situation.

01:05:02.460 Like, they're not repairable.

01:05:03.460 So what I saw happen over three decades was that the administration encroached on the faculty.

01:05:09.460 And every time they did that, so that'd be like 3,000 times, the faculty stepped backwards.

01:05:14.460 And I used to tell my colleagues, why are you saying yes?

01:05:17.460 And they'd say, well, we won't get what we want if we don't agree.

01:05:21.460 And I said, well, are you getting what you want now?

01:05:24.460 It's like, well, no, but it'll get worse.

01:05:26.460 It's like, have it your way.

01:05:28.460 And so then the administration took over the university.

01:05:31.460 And then the woke types took over the administration.

01:05:35.460 And that happened much faster.

01:05:37.460 But the precedent had already been established and it was the faculty's fault.

01:05:41.460 As far as I'm concerned, it was like just constant acts of micro-cowardice, you know?

01:05:47.460 And so how do you repair that?

01:05:49.460 Cornell put together, hypothetically, like a panel to investigate bolstering free speech at Cornell.

01:05:59.460 But then they stacked the panel with DEI types, of course.

01:06:02.460 And so that's not going to work.

01:06:03.460 It was all for show.

01:06:05.460 And so now, you know, does that mean that higher education is doomed?

01:06:09.460 It's like, no, I don't think so.

01:06:10.460 There's all sorts of technological workarounds.

01:06:12.460 And there's a huge opportunity on the educational front to get things right in a much less expensive manner.

01:06:20.460 But I can't see that the universities are salvageable.

01:06:23.460 And the woke types are trying to take out the science, technology, engineering, and mathematics specialties.

01:06:28.460 And they'll do that because those people don't have a political bone in their body.

01:06:32.460 They have no idea how to fight off the woke types who went through the humanities and then the social scientists.

01:06:39.460 So I can't see that being repaired.

01:06:42.460 The granting agencies are completely corrupt.

01:06:45.460 Well, and in California, I think it's 75% of applicants for science, technology, engineering, and mathematics entry-level positions at universities

01:06:54.460 have their dossiers set aside without even, without their research even being evaluated because their diversity, equity, and inclusivity statements are insufficient.

01:07:04.460 And that's California.

01:07:05.460 It had one of the greatest state education systems in the world.

01:07:08.460 So this is, we're done with, we're done with that.

01:07:12.460 Do you think parents, a parent right now with an 18 or 19-year-old kid or 17-year-old kid, should they dissuade their kids from going to college?

01:07:19.460 It depends on the college, but broadly speaking, yes, especially if it's expensive.

01:07:24.460 It's like, no, there's just, why would you send someone to an institution that panders and propagandizes?

01:07:30.460 And it's a weird combination of corporate-speak stupidity.

01:07:35.460 Our students are customers, you know, they're consumers.

01:07:38.460 It's like, no, they're not.

01:07:39.460 They're not consumers, not in the classic sense.

01:07:42.460 And then, well, and then kowtowing to the woke mob, you know, and letting their claims to compassion stand unchallenged, which is also quite stunning,

01:07:51.460 because the real woke radicals are anything but compassionate.

01:07:55.460 They use that 100% as camouflage.

01:07:58.460 They're, the worst of them are predatory psychopaths.

01:08:00.460 And the research, by the way, the research on that front is indicating that with great clarity.

01:08:05.460 Dark tetrad types.

01:08:07.460 Machiavellian, so manipulative.

01:08:09.460 Psychopathic, that makes them predatory parasites.

01:08:13.460 Narcissistic, so they want unearned status.

01:08:17.460 And that was the initial dark triad.

01:08:20.460 That wasn't enough.

01:08:21.460 The researchers had to add sadism to that in the last three years,

01:08:24.460 because it turns out that if you have those three personality trait clusters characterizing you,

01:08:30.460 you also take undue pleasure in the suffering of others.

01:08:33.460 And so, and psychometrically, it appears that having those personality traits is almost indistinguishable on the measurable front

01:08:42.460 from being a left-wing authoritarian.

01:08:44.460 So, and we're compassionate.

01:08:46.460 It's like, no, I don't think so.

01:08:48.460 I think you're a complete bloody poisonous snake.

01:08:50.460 And you're using compassion to hide what is nothing on your part but pure maneuvering for power.

01:08:57.460 And that's why the left-wing radicals say, well, you know, everything's about power.

01:09:01.460 It's like, well, that's how you think.

01:09:03.460 What about reason?

01:09:04.460 What about facts?

01:09:05.460 What about logic?

01:09:06.460 What about reality?

01:09:07.460 You know, when you see the government putting this guy into prison for calling his daughter his daughter,

01:09:14.460 if we're calling her, you want to point to her, you say, but no, but here's biology, and here's philosophy, and here's epistemology, and here's the Constitution.

01:09:21.460 And then these people will look at you, and they'll say, so what?

01:09:24.460 We don't care.

01:09:25.460 It's like, what's your point, buddy?

01:09:27.460 You know, all that old stuff.

01:09:29.460 Besides, the right response to that from the radical side is, every single word you said was nothing but a justification for your power striving.

01:09:35.460 Right.

01:09:36.460 You and your free speech, right?

01:09:38.460 You and your productivity, your merit.

01:09:40.460 All that is, is you're conniving to mask your power striving.

01:09:43.460 Well, that's the basic claim.

01:09:45.460 So, you know, and, well, the reason that holds purchase to some degree is because almost all social interactions between people at all levels are contaminated to some degree with inappropriate striving for power, right?

01:10:01.460 So you can say, well, look at the corruption, and you can say, well, it's all corruption.

01:10:06.460 It's like, well, at that point, you really have to watch your claim.

01:10:09.460 Right.

01:10:10.460 Because if that's true, then we are in a very dark place.

01:10:13.460 Now, there's much more…

01:10:14.460 And if it was true, nothing would work.

01:10:16.460 Right.

01:10:17.460 And things do work.

01:10:18.460 So, obviously, it's not true.

01:10:19.460 Right, right.

01:10:20.460 We wouldn't have intelligible speech, for that matter.

01:10:22.460 Or electricity.

01:10:23.460 That's right.

01:10:24.460 Right.

01:10:25.460 Plumbing.

01:10:26.460 There will be a lot more intelligible speech in your interview, Matt, on Jordan's podcast, which is out now, I believe.

01:10:33.460 He dared to put me on his YouTube channel.

01:10:36.460 Well, RIP, Jordan, to your YouTube channel.

01:10:40.460 Went out with a bang, though, so…

01:10:42.460 No, and it's got about two and a half times the normal number of views for the time period that it's been out.

01:10:49.460 YouTube, at the moment, has left it alone, and so…

01:10:52.460 Yeah, and I don't think it was a dare, you know, because there's always a risk in these situations, right?

01:10:57.460 The risk is you do it, or you don't do it.

01:11:01.460 Those are both risks.

01:11:03.460 And I think it's clear, and it's been clear for me all along.

01:11:06.460 The biggest risk you can possibly take is to let the cat have your tongue.

01:11:11.460 It's like, if you can't say what you need to say, you can't think.

01:11:17.460 And if you can't think, you will wander into a pit.

01:11:20.460 And if you don't think there are pits, and abysmal pits, you're pretty damn naive.

01:11:24.460 So, you know, people have said to me, you're so courageous, I think.

01:11:27.460 No, no, no, you don't understand.

01:11:29.460 I'm just afraid of the right thing.

01:11:31.460 I'm just seeing ahead of what happens if I make the other choice.

01:11:34.460 And you've seen that for years, and you can go listen to that conversation right now on Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's YouTube channel.

01:11:41.460 I want to thank all of you for coming out and making the time for all of your work in the film, outside of the film.

01:11:48.460 Even you, Matt, I want to thank you for this.

01:11:50.460 You're welcome.

01:11:51.460 I want to thank the year of this movie, and I want to thank all of you, the viewers, and especially the Daily Wire Plus members who made this movie possible, who funded this movie, and all of the other content that we have out there right now and the content that's coming up in the future.

01:12:05.460 I hope that you know the answer to what a woman is.

01:12:08.460 I think you do.

01:12:09.460 I hope many, many more people as a result of this movie and these conversations will know it as well.

01:12:14.460 Until then, we'll see you next time.

The Matt Walsh Show - June 10, 2023

What is a Woman？ Reunion

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