In this episode, Megyn talks to math teacher Paul Rossi about his decision to speak out against white supremacy at his exclusive private school, Grace Church, and the fallout from the letter he sent to the headteacher, who called him a liar.
00:01:03.160The faculty and the students were told that any questioning of the dogma being shoved down their throats in the name of critical race theory,
00:01:11.480just the questioning was somehow dehumanizing and damaging to, you know, their fellow students and people of color and so on.
00:01:20.020And here you have this guy who just stood up and said no more.
00:02:42.340I, you know, I've been thinking about you since your letter came out, which I think is truly one of the bravest things I've seen anybody do in this whole school mess that we've been dealing with for months now.
00:02:53.320And and you're you're the only faculty member I've seen speak out in this way.
00:04:39.340I mean, they they like most of these, quote, independent, which, right, is code for private schools.
00:04:44.300And they've made an effort, a conscious effort to reach out and get more minority students enrolled so that the student body can be more diverse.
00:04:53.880Right. I'm I'm assuming that's true just based on the numbers I've read and what I've read about the school.
00:04:59.200Yes, that's right. And so that's kind of what's being offered here.
00:05:02.680I mean, if you think of an independent school as a kind of engine that moves forward, if it offers different things to different groups and different people that apply.
00:05:12.080So diversity is something that is really important for applicants that come to the school because that's something that colleges value.
00:05:21.660But it's also something that I think rightly so.
00:05:24.640The parents recognize that it's a changing world.
00:05:26.980And if if if their children can, you know, have experience with friends of all different backgrounds and income levels, that's going to be better for them as human beings.
00:05:38.800Yep. Agreed. I've been saying that all along, that I really think that the way you raise a non racist is by exposing your children to great people of all races.
00:05:51.340I mean, just it doesn't I don't think it has to be more complicated than that.
00:05:55.600Just immerse them in a field of people of all different backgrounds and skin colors and cultures.
00:06:01.940And then they'll see just like anybody, you know, black people, white people, brown people.
00:06:07.480They can be awesome. They can be flawed. They can be offensive. They can be loving it.
00:06:11.960Like that's the way you do it. But of course, we've gone a different way.
00:06:15.420So let's just start back to you're at your Grace Church, you're teaching math, as I understand it, for how many years?
00:06:22.880This has been my ninth year teaching math.
00:06:25.700I started with the high school, the inaugural faculty in 2012 when Grace opened a ninth grade and in a new building just down the street from their K through eight campus, which which they they had had for 100 years or so.
00:06:42.900When did you first start to see the change in curriculum, in messaging and sort of this obsessive focus on race?
00:06:55.620It's it's a little bit blurry, the timeline, but I I believe it can be traced to, you know, 2015.
00:07:00.900Although in 2012, we all faculty from from the beginning of the school, we had to complete this training called Undoing Racism with an institute called the bizarrely named People's Institute for Survival and Beyond.
00:07:16.920And I did that training in the third year.
00:07:24.420And that was quite an experience that was very interesting.
00:07:27.080And that was sort of my first introduction to what was to come.
00:07:30.620But in 2016, I believe, the school, I could be wrong, I could be off by a year or so, but they changed their mission to include anti-racism as part of their mission.
00:07:46.560And as they as they informed the faculty and the staff, they did this because diversity, equity and inclusion were no longer enough.
00:07:55.420It was no longer enough to be diverse, equitable and inclusive.
00:07:59.880And this was a decision that was made at the board level.
00:08:03.000And it was it was laid out before us that there would be no debate.
00:08:05.900There would be no discussion about it.
00:08:07.640This was a commitment that we were all expected to make.
00:08:11.680And and later I found out that I believe it was due to a board retreat.
00:08:16.240The board of trustees went on a retreat, I think, over the summer with a an outfit called the the Carl Institute.
00:08:24.020Um, the Carl Institute, um, I think it's was, uh, yeah, there, there, the Carl, Carl is an acronym C-A-R-L-E and it stands for the critical analysis of race and learning and education.
00:08:38.600So I think this was when, when grace really cast its lot with the new orthodoxy.
00:08:44.940And since then, um, there have been several, um, hires for, you know, staffing positions in, um, diversity, equity and inclusion and belonging.
00:08:56.340And they, they've created, uh, office of community engagement, um, various, there's an institutional culture committee.
00:09:04.300And so there are these several, this, this increase of bureaucratic, um, aspects to how the anti-racist programming is delivered and managed and, um, how it has, you know, spread as a pedagogical priority through the various disciplines in the school.
00:09:23.680So this is in 16, you said that that's interesting because that's, that's kind of early, right?
00:09:28.040Like we've all been seeing it explode over the past year, but grace church was on the leading edge of that along with schools like Dalton and, you know, we'll get to how that's worked out.
00:09:38.900But so you were sort of ahead of the curve on that in a, in a way that we were early adopters, I would say.
00:09:48.840Cause I can tell you, for example, at the, at the school, our daughter goes to, they're very bought into all of this stuff.
00:09:55.700They've got the Pollyanna program on race and what they, what they've been doing though, thus far, it's going to change.
00:10:03.420But what they've been doing is offering those so-called courageous conversations, retreats with, you know, these controversial figures who, you know, say very racist things and so on, but it's optional.
00:10:17.120So the parents can do it if they want, they don't have to do it.
00:10:22.880Optional is one thing mandated for faculty mandated for teachers is something very different.
00:10:27.700What, what was your experience at least starting in 16?
00:10:32.040Well, they eased us into it, I would say.
00:10:34.200And so I think they, they sensed that there might be resistance if they, if they piled it on on us all at once.
00:10:41.220You know, maybe that's a little conspiratorial, maybe what it was, it was just a gradual evolution of, of the spread of the ideas in the school.
00:10:49.440But I think it was, there was an early meeting where we all got together.
00:10:52.760I think it was during a faculty meeting and they said, well, what does, you know, we'd like to ask you, what does anti-racism mean to you?
00:10:58.200And I, you know, most people, I think myself included thought, well, that's just not being racist, you know, that's being, that's judging individuals as, you know, on their character and not the color of their skin, which is really, you know, what, what the common sense answer to what is anti-racism is.
00:11:16.620So, you know, I, they said, oh yeah, that's, that's good.
00:11:21.840You know, and they sort of, they were trying to get people talking and have honest conversations and, you know, not much happened after that immediately, but I really knew that something was headed in the wrong direction when, I think maybe a year later or perhaps 2017, the timeline's a little blurry for me.
00:11:41.940So I apologize if anyone's checking up on that, but they put a, they handed out this pyramid.
00:11:48.620So the pyramid of white supremacy or pyramid of racism, not sure what exactly which it was, but it's a pyramid and at the top is genocide.
00:11:59.560And so with, and there are various levels of the pyramid.
00:12:02.100So you have, you know, overt white supremacy or overt racism and below that you have, you know, covert racism and then indifferent, there's an indifference layer.
00:12:11.940And there were things on this pyramid like, you know, there are two sides to every story or things like funding locally sourced schools or things that were part of the democratic party platform or things that were common sense, like, you know, why can't we all get along?
00:12:35.820Or, you know, things that are essentially commonsensical ways for people to interact with each other.
00:12:43.680And one of the most disturbing things that they had were two things right next to each other.
00:12:48.240One of them was, you know, not believing POC, not believing people of color was one of the things on the pyramid.
00:12:57.880And right next to it was, but my black friend said, meaning you're supposed to listen to people of color.
00:13:02.580So this, this hodgepodge of contradictory things and including, you know, making things that I consider to be virtues and devices by arranging them on a schema that puts genocide, you know, in that schema, I refuse to teach it.
00:13:20.320I went to the, I went to the, I think the then Dean of Equity and Inclusion and I said, I can't teach this.
00:13:26.940And they went, okay, okay, you know, we're not going to make you do it.
00:13:35.740And so they, you know, there's a, there's always a little back and forth there.
00:13:39.200And I must say that I must commend them on being flexible.
00:13:41.880And, and, you know, if people didn't want to do something, they wouldn't push it on you too much.
00:13:45.980Um, and, you know, but the framework that they, that they use internally is always towards the faculty, you know, you need more training or you're not ready, or maybe we can send you to some professional development that will help you.
00:14:00.440You know, essentially, um, you're not, you're, you're ignorant is, is the implication that you don't understand what you, what you need to do and that, that we're going to help you.
00:14:11.140So it's very, it's very cult-like and the idea that someone could actually understand the schema fully and disagree with it is not, is, is not ever considered.
00:14:21.560I'm actually looking at it right now that this pyramid of white supremacy, right?
00:14:25.320That the worst, the top is genocide, mass murder, unjust police shootings, reading from the pyramid now, lynching, hate crimes.
00:14:32.520That's the farthest end of the white supremacy pyramid, but also on the list, as you go down and the pyramid gets wider is some of the, are the things that you're talking about.
00:14:44.160And it's so in the, in the eye of the beholder, right?
00:14:47.820Like what you just said, not believing experiences of POC, people of color.
00:14:54.300That what comes to mind is the girl at Smith college who said I was kicked out of the dorm for eating while black.
00:15:01.320Meanwhile, it turned out she was not supposed to be in that dorm.
00:15:54.880Because I, I saw this at our school where one of the slides that was presented at, this is our, our boy's school that we were at.
00:16:01.240It, what was presented was something like how you bring people along from their white supremacy.
00:16:06.440And one of the slides was like, they'll be in denial at first.
00:16:09.680And you just kind of have to work with them until they get over their denial of all of the stuff on this pyramid.
00:16:15.920And then finally they'll come along and, and, you know, but you have to like, you have to deal with them in their position of bargaining when they're, where they're fighting to let go of their supremacy.
00:16:28.460It's, it's, um, they've created a sort of a timeline and a scale where enlightenment is at the end of some long journey, which is the work.
00:16:37.520Um, and you know, this is common of all cults, right?
00:16:40.880I mean, I think Scientology, Scientology does a similar thing.
00:16:44.800Um, you know, I don't know if there's any Scientologists out there, but I, I find lots of similarities there.
00:16:49.980You know, this idea that there are things inside there, you have biases inside you, which are very hard to detect, but, you know, with practice, you're going to be able to detect them.
00:17:00.380It's very much like Thetans, uh, as somebody described me recently, you know, these, whenever you have a widely distributed, um, set of, set of problems that have low effect sizes and are hard to detect, but they're everywhere.
00:17:14.920Then you, then you're entering the danger zone, uh, with, with any type of belief system.
00:17:20.000And, and if you're, if, if they're expressed as a negative thing or they're, they're, they're tied to the negative things, then, then you, it, it leads to, in a general sense, it leads to sort of witch hunts and, and purges and things like that.
00:17:37.100So that's, that's a Scientology thing.
00:17:38.960And in Scientology, if you question any of their crazy beliefs, and I realized a lot of religions have some crazy foundations that, you know, if you really take a hard look, but they literally worshiped a clam.
00:17:51.680Um, if you challenge any of that, you're deemed, and I quote, a suppressive person, which I am informed by one of the top grand poobahs of Scientology.
00:18:00.320I have been labeled a suppressive person.
00:18:24.520And they certainly don't mean become a Trump supporter.
00:18:28.300Um, another thing is of avoiding confrontation with racist family members.
00:18:34.460We've seen some of that recently on Twitter saying, oh, now that the pandemic is, you know, coming to a close and people are getting vaccinated, you haven't seen your grandparents in a long time.
00:18:43.840It is still your duty to get in there and challenge their racism.
00:18:46.740So it's like, Nana, Nana, so good to see you, you racist PO.
00:18:54.400Well, uh, you know, uh, the, the politics, um, doesn't affect me thing is important too, because it makes sense from, from, from their point of view, because in their view, everyone is already political, whether you admit it or not.
00:19:06.540Um, so because of our social position in society, um, you are politicized from birth by simply existing while oppressed or, or, or an oppressor.
00:19:18.100So you, you don't, you, according to them, you don't have the option, you know, um, well, if you, if you do have the option to not think about politics, well, then you are privileged.
00:19:27.520Uh, so even just saying that trying to even approach things in an apolitical way is, is, you know, a kind of, um, political statement.
00:19:39.940I'm looking at one of the other things on this higher up on the list of sins is, um, minimization.
00:19:46.860And that one of the quotes is we all belong to the human race.
00:19:50.380And I'm thinking of Daryl Davis, right?
00:19:52.600Who's like literally he's a black man who's literally gotten grand wizards to leave the KKK just by being amazing.
00:20:01.860Not, not trying to proselytize, just sort of sitting with them and showing them what a black man is actually like.
00:20:09.100And he's part of this group fair, which I know, you know, you've, you've been working with two foundation against intolerance and racism.
00:20:15.580Daryl Davis, black man says that in the promo for fair about, you know, belonging to that one race, the human race.
00:20:21.460So he too is a white supremacist, according to this, who needs to be deprogrammed of his internalized, I guess it would be internalized hatred.
00:20:49.480Well, so, you know, one of the things that all the teachers are expected to do of any subject is to also, you know, most, I would say, you know, 90% of the teachers have an advisory.
00:20:58.120So it's a small, you're probably familiar with this.
00:21:00.660It's a small group that you kind of shepherd through their four years at the institution and you hear their problems and you work with them and you're there.
00:21:07.960You're like a confidant, you know, to, for them to come to, if they have questions about, you know, social problems or academic issues, you can run interference with teachers.
00:21:16.620And grace builds in a substantial amount of advisory time so that advisors can, I guess I would say, talk about things that are important to the community or the social life of the school.
00:21:30.140And one, and they're, they're, they're giving me this pyramid was, you know, they said, we, we blocked out time during advisory time, which is maybe 15 minutes a day for you to discuss this pyramid and, um, and start introducing it.
00:21:45.200And that's when I, I refused to do the pyramid.
00:21:47.500So they initially said, okay, you know, we're, we're going to bring you along because you're definitely on the pyramid, Paul.
00:22:02.740So then how did it, how did it escalate?
00:22:05.000Well, um, I would say that because of racialized incidents in the broader society, the presence of Trump and the, and the, uh, the effect that that was having on, um, on sort of, you know, people's psyche, frankly,
00:22:27.000and also, uh, racial incidents within the school, um, that were, I, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to discount them because there are racist, you know, that does happen.
00:22:40.500You have different cultures coming into conflict, you know, when you have kids from different backgrounds and there are things that happen, um, but they, they all get fed into this framework.
00:22:51.240So when, you know, if somebody sings the N word along to say a Drake song or something in mixed company, um, and it gets out, then someone can be, you know, this is a symptom of 400 years of oppression all of a sudden.
00:23:05.340So individual events that are, that are, that are misunderstandings between, you know, 13 or 14 year olds are being, um, blown up to, to be an, to, to, to reflect some huge, vast historical framework for understanding, um, our country and our country's history.
00:23:28.280And so the weight of all this just creates a, an opportunity for conflict, um, and, you know, of course, there's also things happening external to the school that are generating conflict, uh, because it feeds into what they're teaching so that it, you know, it, it creates, it can create a lot of, I want to say, um, you know, a lot of upset, a lot of, a lot of anger.
00:23:54.100Sure. Yeah. I, you know, I was just thinking about this in the context of inconsistent parenting. Now, if you had the loving parent who is kind and, you know, a squish and, you know, is a soft place to fall, who then snaps and responds to a small transgression as though you're a Hitler-esque kid.
00:24:14.860And it's very destabilizing and it's very damaging to a kid's mental health. And I see this as an example of that, right? Like a kid, these schools are small and, and the kids are there for 12 plus years with a very small, and the grades are like 50 kids.
00:24:34.540And so they know everybody and it's supposed to be a safe environment. And suddenly one transgression, like the one you speak of, right? Repeating a Drake song with the N word in it. And you get no benefit of the doubt. To the contrary, you're treated like you're at the top of this pyramid with the genocidal lynchers.
00:25:28.440Right. Well, you know, and they, this really gets to the heart of, of the sequence of the way the curriculum around anti-racism is, is taught and it's, and how it's happening earlier and earlier. You know, Pollyanna, we, we, I think it was last year, we, we actually piloted their K through eight, I believe their, you know, K through eight curriculum.
00:25:52.740And, you know, as early as sixth grade, they are, they will, they will try to get them to get a social identity before they've even formed their individual identity. So identity development is complex. You're trying to develop your, your personality, your interests, your aspirations, your, your affections.
00:26:13.800All of these things are internal to the self and you're expressing and they're coming out. Now, what they do is they say, you know, yes, you have this individual identity and everyone is special.
00:26:24.420But what you also have is a social identity and they talk about race and gender and, and, and how society sees you and, and how, you know, these, these categories have persisted through time, through, you know, yes, real oppressive conditions.
00:26:40.420And they have been in, you know, in the case of race, you know, one thing I actually agree with on critical history is that, that history is one-sided, but it is true in the sense that, you know, race is a construct that was created to, to, you know, maintain impressive relationships through, through the history of the country.
00:27:02.400But, you know, there's, you know, there's, they're saying that who you are as an individual is subordinate, subordinate to these social factors because, you know, in the blank slate model, you are, this is, you are affected so much by the society that you're in that you don't even know how you're affected by it.
00:27:19.440So up next, we're going to discuss this Pollyanna program, which if you're not familiar with this program, Google it because it's probably coming or has already come to a school near you.
00:27:31.040So it certainly has come to my school here in New York and you, you need to be up to date on this because it has such a sweet name and it has a very different kind of message.
00:27:41.280We'll get to that with Paul in one second.
00:28:02.040It's, it's affiliated with the Manhattan Institute and it's wonderful.
00:28:04.580But here's just a quick description of Pollyanna, which is everywhere, by the way, it's everywhere.
00:28:09.860It's not just New York City schools here.
00:28:11.600Quote, much of the content Pollyanna offers is based on its racial literacy curriculum, a suite of lesson plans imbued with the latest in pop progressivism.
00:28:40.060His history is all about how terrible we are.
00:28:41.840The course begins in kindergarten and culminates in eighth grade when students spend class time on racial and or social justice projects, turning their lessons into activism.
00:28:55.060It's not enough just to learn, listen, hear the viewpoint.
00:28:58.860You must become an activist for this point of view or you're failing, which is a point you get to in your letter to Grace Church, which was, I thought, really helpful when you were pointing out how it's like students who aren't saying anything are singled out and told, we really need to hear from you.
00:29:17.320Which I do want to get to this, but I just, I want to build it up so people understand, you know, how this happened and how you got to the point of writing this letter.
00:29:25.920So was there, and when you say that there were racial incidents at Grace Church, I just want to be clear because there have been at a lot of these schools.
00:29:34.440It's not like, I don't think these schools are teeming with racists.
00:29:38.500But they're kids and they do stupid things sometimes.
00:29:41.700And so was there anything particularly egregious or that, you know, sort of set things off in a faster way?
00:29:51.800Well, I, I, I have to say it's, you know, I, I don't have any, I don't have much firsthand experience.
00:29:57.900And so, but what generally I did a lot of investigating when I, when I heard that there was an incident, I did my best to talk to colleagues and I had many colleagues I was close with, deans and so on.
00:30:06.940And, and typically these incidents fall into, you know, three or four categories.
00:30:11.220One is confusing one black student for another.
00:30:14.440Um, and that, you know, that itself is seen as a racially, you know, hostile act.
00:31:01.100Well, you know, the, the way that it's, you know, again, every part of the schema fits together.
00:31:05.920So, you know, I would say to you, if I was, um, the Dean of Equity and Inclusion, I would say, well, Megan, you know, we really have to prioritize impact over intent in that situation.
00:31:15.860That is because these students have grown up in this, in, in circumstances in a racialized America, um, when you confuse a black, one black student for another, then that is triggering, um, for them an entire, you know, it is kind of negating them, negating them, negating their identity in a way where you wouldn't do that to, to, to when you, if you did the same thing for two white students, just as a devil's advocate.
00:31:42.420Um, and that is actually, I think the biggest problem with the whole thing is prioritizing impact over intent because, you know, our justice system doesn't, you know, discount intent for a very important reason.
00:32:00.220Intent is central to our understanding of our common humanity and, and our, our, the building blocks of our society.
00:32:08.540You know, if, if you do something, um, if you, if you harm someone, um, it's a lesser degree charge, right?
00:32:17.220It's, it's, it's, it's can mitigating circumstances.
00:32:52.020Um, but what's happening here is that when you have this, um, you fit everything into this massive historical framework of oppression, then you, you don't give people the chance to, you know, redeem themselves by their intentions.
00:33:07.680Well, and, and not only that, the second layer of it is what about spending some time minimizing impact?
00:33:17.380What about spending some time looking at whether it's a woman who's had a minor transgression against her or a person of color who's feels slighted in some way and saying, not great.
00:33:30.720What we do and, and, and that's not to minimize the offense felt it's, it's a problem solving method.
00:33:38.900It's a coping method because the reality of life is you can, I've said this before, you cannot whack a mole away all the people who are going to hurt you.
00:33:49.220You, you can't, they're going to keep coming over and over and over.
00:33:52.900And the better tactic is to build up your resilience, strength, and ability to shrug off jerks and say, it'd be great if we can, you know, at the school level and otherwise work on awareness so that, you know, more awareness trickles down.
00:34:11.400But the truth is, it's an individual coping mechanism that gets you through life.
00:34:16.900If you can't get rid of all the jerks, they've tried that.
00:34:26.080And one of the things that I think is important is, is the burden of tolerance in a sense.
00:34:31.100So if you have two people just to simplify the situation, you know, the one way for, one way for those two people to be tolerant of each other is for them to be, you know, overweeningly careful about offending each other.
00:35:01.920So, you know, that is, I think what you're talking about with resilience and we definitely need to put more of, you know, to, to, to, you know, guide students and, and sort of teach them how to put more of, how to assume more of the burden of tolerance in a sense to, to be, to be tougher, to be more adaptable in those circumstances.
00:35:22.260They can be assertive about how they're hurt, but that, but then, you know, say, Oh, that, that hurt me.
00:35:28.160But, you know, they can roll with it essentially.
00:35:33.500I think children come into life with that is their default.
00:35:37.740You know, they learn on the playground.
00:35:39.820Somebody does something to you and maybe your eyes well up, but you have to keep functioning because no kid wants to play with the kid who's over there whining and crying.
00:35:49.500Right. Like they learn it at a very early age.
00:35:53.000Only in the past couple of years have we switched to no letter, let it rip.
00:36:03.040It's like only now we switch this whole messaging of like, it's better to be a victimized whiner who's constantly complaining that is going to be rewarded.
00:36:12.820So you see some incidents you're, I mean, like, are you somebody that people have been going to?
00:36:20.400This is prior to all the craziness that's, that's erupted over the past few weeks there.
00:36:23.780But like, were you a counselor to students who had been, who felt victimized or who felt accused?
00:36:30.000You know, um, I, I wasn't, and probably that's, you know, a self-selection bias and that I was, you know, I was known as kind of a tough cookie and math, you know, math teacher didn't, um, didn't give a lot of extensions.
00:36:44.320I don't think was a little bit rigorous.
00:36:46.500Rigor is very important, you know, in, in, I think in math and exactitude is important.
00:36:52.020Um, I believe in, you know, lots of failing over and over until you get it right.
00:36:56.900And it's having, having that kind of resilience as well.
00:36:59.120And I, I'm, I'm very nurturing and trying to, to, to guide students to, to do that.
00:37:04.080But no, I wasn't, I was not what they call a safe space advocate.
00:37:09.300You know, I think there are other teachers that, that moved into that role.
00:37:12.800Um, but I did, you know, kids would sort of come to me if they had, you know, other problems, I think, because they felt like I would be an ally for them.
00:37:23.620If they felt they couldn't express their views in a paper without retaliation, or if they, if they, um, you know, they, they wouldn't, uh, necessarily ask this teacher for a recommendation because they thought maybe they would, you know, sabotage their application, something like that.
00:37:39.600Um, and I think there was probably some truth to those things.
00:37:45.260Well, you know, write a bad recommendation of purpose because they may have had conservative views, express them in class and, and been chastened for it in some way.
00:38:14.080A lot of times what would happen is the teacher would maybe question their sources, right?
00:38:17.680So if they, if they selected from the wall street journal or something, or, um, you know, something, uh, you know, something like, uh, the daily wire or national review, even some things like that, that are pretty, you know, on the other side, they may have, they may have allowed, you know, you know, something like, uh, Vox or some other similar,
01:06:08.420I told him he was a brave young man for coming to see me and that he should be proud of that.
01:06:13.520Then I sent him on his way and I resolved to write this piece.
01:06:18.460And you went public in a way that has now cost you your job.
01:06:24.300Are you officially fired right now, Paul, or is it just fired from teaching?
01:06:30.920Yeah, I've had all my classes taken away, my math classes, my advisory.
01:06:36.280I was in the middle of putting grades in a couple of days ago and they cut off my access to the intranet.
01:06:42.880Intranet, so I couldn't get my grades and I'm going to try to get the comments in through a colleague who can maybe put them in there.
01:06:55.380Luckily, I was able to get the actual marking grades done.
01:06:58.700But yes, they also had an offer for me to participate in a task force or a subcommittee of the Institutional Culture Committee where I would report to the assistant head.
01:07:13.120But I don't think I would be allowed to participate in the committee itself.
01:07:18.440So it was kind of like a rubber room situation like they have in public schools.
01:07:26.660And I would serve out the remainder of my contract, which is I think at this point it's four to five months on my current contract.
01:07:33.480Maybe not that much, four months or something like that.
01:07:35.420And that was, of course, after initially they said, all right, we're not going to – because you wrote this piece.
01:07:38.840You came out publicly and started to document some of these problems, which was incredibly brave.
01:07:44.720And just said – the headline was, I refuse to stand by while my students are indoctrinated.
01:09:25.760Oh, well, you know, I wrote a letter basically disputing the claim that I was a liar.
01:09:35.840And I asked, you know, I was wondering, well, if I've done all these omissions and inaccuracies, well, what are they?
01:09:40.620I, you know, I published, I published some things that I, you know, that we had a conversation in March.
01:09:49.700Um, and that, you know, I, I, you know, I, I have to defend what, what I, what I said, or, you know, what, what happened?
01:10:00.260Um, he's pushing me against the wall here and he's calling me a liar.
01:10:03.660And I will not stand for that in, in, in no, no uncertain terms.
01:10:08.320So I, you know, I wrote a subsequent letter and reply to his letter to the community saying that, you know, he, it definitely went against things that he had told me in conversation.
01:10:22.100And, you know, I said what those things, what, what those things were.
01:10:26.540Um, and that in fact, he did agree with me in many cases with my objections and that it showed hypocrisy, frankly.
01:10:34.200Right. So you come out and you say, um, he, behind the scenes, the head of school expressed to me, quote, grave doubts about some of the doctrinaire stuff that gets spouted at us in the name of anti-racism.
01:10:48.960And you said, when I told you, this is your letter, that they're fighting a revolution and we'll hollow out grace and move on to the next institution, you acknowledged, quote, they've hollowed out a bunch of other ones ahead of us.
01:11:00.100And you go on and he, he comes out and says, you misquoted me, you attributed to me things I, I never said.
01:11:08.660And that is when you drop the hammer of the tape, which was just, I'm sorry, but so smart.
01:11:16.700It's lawful in New York state to tape somebody as long as one party to the conversation is consenting.
01:11:21.200And you were that party and you've got it. And let's just, let's start with this, with this, um, the first claim about, um, white, whether, whether people are being linked to white supremacy just because of the pigmentation they're born with.
01:11:40.280And your exchange with Davison on that, this is our first soundbite. Go ahead and run it.
01:11:44.900You can, you, you can have, and I'm happy to keep debating and I don't actually have any doubt because I've known you for nine years of your sincerity in your belief.
01:11:57.200And I also, um, have grave doubts about some of the doctrinaire stuff that gets spouted at us in the name of anti-racism.
01:12:20.480Because that would help me. It would help me understand like what's going on.
01:12:23.860Um, I think that one of the things that's going on a little too much, and we've talked about this, is that, um, the demonization of being white, um, and, and the attempt to link anybody who's white to the perpetuation of white supremacy.
01:13:00.520Wait, wait, wait a minute. But what about impact over intent?
01:13:04.420Don't those kids get the benefit of impact over intent?
01:13:07.040Exactly. What about the white kids who are linked to white supremacy because of a pigmentation they were born with over which they have no control and you, you're putting it back on him.
01:13:20.860The whole, you've said at this entire interview, they told you it's about impact.
01:13:24.660It's about impact, not the intent of the speaker.
01:13:27.240And what about the impact on these white kids who are tarred with one of the worst sins of our country's history, white supremacy, through no fault other than a gene that they are born with?
01:13:43.700And moral inferiority, which I think is, which I think is just so damaging to the spirit, um, just as much as moral superiority is, is also damaging to the spirit.
01:13:57.840Do you think, what do you think he, his reaction was when he found out you taped him?
01:14:06.140Um, I can't, I can't imagine. I can't imagine.
01:14:21.620Because what I think it needs to be said here is that you cannot have a public face that says one thing, uh, and you're talking, you're saying different things to different people.
01:14:31.540Um, and then in private, you know, placate people endlessly, um, and, and try to manage things or, or to make, to make claims that are moral when you don't believe those things in private.
01:14:44.860I think that that's wrong and people need to know it.
01:14:47.060Um, and I don't think that he's unique in this respect and based on whatever, I don't think that, that this is something that is, you know, that is confined to, to George Davidson.
01:14:57.820I think a lot of these institutions are actually extremely hypocritical in the way they deploy these virtuous, seemingly virtuous belief systems.
01:15:09.820But that comes down to the main thing is that this is affecting kids.
01:15:16.920Now, if you, if, if he knows that this is going on, he has a duty to shut it down like yesterday immediately, because how can you possibly allow one day to go by when, with kids being demonized like this?
01:15:32.620Wait, and let me, so let me pause you there.
01:15:35.700Cause I want, I want people to hear that soundbite.
01:15:37.640So you came out in your letter on April 19th and you said, Hey George, um, you said, you admitted to me that Grace Church is demonizing white people for being born and that the school is making white students feel less than for nothing that they're personal, personally responsible for.
01:15:55.620You said this in a letter and he came out and said, you misquoted me and you attributed to me things.
01:16:00.520I never said, nor ever would say, and this is the soundbite number three.
01:16:06.460Let's listen to what he said and whether you were right.
01:16:09.380Let me ask you something, George, because I think those are, I think there's something very different about having a single experience where you make sense of it.
01:16:18.960And having a teacher, an authority figure, talk to you endlessly every year telling you that because you have whiteness, you are associated with evils, all these different evils.
01:16:32.500It's not the same as taking like a physical thing because it doesn't affect your, your, your moral value.
01:16:38.160The, the, the, the fact is that I'm agreeing with you that there has been a demonization that we need to get our hands around in the way in which people are doing this understanding.
01:18:55.260Well, this is like the same, but also opposite.
01:18:58.440So imagine being pulled in two different directions by two different constituencies and needing both of them to get along.
01:19:05.780So, so much that you say one thing to one side and one thing to the other.
01:19:09.140And then it reaches a point where you, where you're, if you're exposed that the thing that you say to one side is not what you believe or the other side, what happens is you, you really just get pulled in half.
01:19:22.980And these independent schools run, you know, on as this sort of engine, right?
01:19:27.480So you have different constituencies, you have under-resourced kids and the parents of those kids.
01:19:33.840And then you have, um, you know, wealthy donors and other kids and parents.
01:19:38.840And in order for the whole engine to move forward, um, you, you have to sort of have things to offer, right?
01:19:46.280So, so for the, you know, for the wealthier families, you get, uh, exposure to diversity and different things and they get, they get out of their wealthy bubble and then that, but then, and then for the under-resourced families and kids, they get opportunities and social capital and, you know, access to, you know, private school or private, uh, universities and colleges that are, that are offer great educations as they move on.
01:20:10.760And so, but for that whole engine to function, um, you know, there it's, there are cultural issues, there are differences.
01:20:17.780And so these, this, this, this sort of outrageous, what sounds like outrageous is this anti-racism is sort of just a way for the institution to get, to, to, to just keep moving.
01:20:28.860Um, and I think that it is, it is, you know, it's just breaking down to the point where it's going to fly apart because, um, you know, you cannot, you cannot have unity within a culture that doesn't treat people as equals.
01:21:21.380And not, not wide swath assumptions, always pejorative in this case about people based on skin color.
01:21:28.340It's something we've been fighting for most of our history to stop.
01:21:32.960And it doesn't make it any better because the group you're doing it to is white.
01:21:37.660And I have to say, I like, I, I don't excuse the board of trustees.
01:21:41.380I mean, generally the way it works is the board of trustees goes around and raises the money, gets money from people to donate to the school.
01:21:48.360And the administration, they're the ones who set the agenda, the academic agenda.
01:21:52.800But this board of trustees is on notice.
01:24:35.380Anybody can stand up and in whatever small way you have, listen to and prioritize the thing inside yourself that's telling you this is wrong and act on it.
01:24:47.600That is the place where I drew my strength.
01:24:50.200It was, it was something within me that's, that, that had been trying to get my attention for years.
01:24:55.620And, you know, I, I would, I would think about it and I would think about it and ruminate about it.
01:25:01.300But what it really wanted, it didn't want me to, it didn't want me to agree with it.
01:25:05.980It wanted me to do something about it.
01:25:08.320It wasn't just satisfied with me saying, oh yeah, that's true.
01:25:22.460Anyone can do it in, in a way that's, you know, that, that makes sense for you.
01:25:28.980You know, um, we have a duty to the truth and we have a duty to our families and, and, uh, and how you balance that out is up to you, but try to balance it.
01:25:43.080And you might be surprised and you will get stronger the more you listen to, to the truth and you act on truth.
01:25:50.720Well, I don't think it's any accident that, you know, now we've seen Andrew Gutman, the parent at Brearley, which is one of the most elite all girl schools, one of the most elite schools in the country.
01:26:04.040Nevermind all girl schools, um, speak out.
01:26:07.120He's a parent saying, this has got to stop.
01:26:09.460Same thing saying, we no longer believe that you have our children's best interests at heart, any of them.
01:26:15.320And that the, the obsession with race must stop.
01:26:31.200She's a complete coward, um, who basically just called his letter deeply offensive and harmful and promised to double down, promised to double down.
01:26:40.200And then, and then played the old, everyone's afraid now they're afraid of Gutman.
01:26:44.060You know, they, they felt frightened and intimidated by his letter, same way as it was like, we need schoolwide meetings on Paul and his crazy talk about how he feels as an individual.
01:26:56.260You, you've, you've made them feel unsafe with your offensive and harmful language, as opposed to saying words are how we identify and solve problems.
01:27:08.560And a difference of opinions is as American as apple pie.
01:27:49.580They're on notice and the more people who follow your lead and the lead of Andrew Gutman, you know, the parent, um, who pulled his kids from Brearley, um, the better off we'll be.
01:28:03.320The stronger we're going to get in this fight in which a very short time ago we had nothing.
01:28:16.680I mean, I want to say something to the students, um, to my students and to students all around the country.
01:28:23.680Uh, um, one of the things I want to work on at FAIR is, is a student guide and, and there's a, there's a student, um, who's come, come forward to help me with that, to, to help students take a stand in their classes or to take a stand in their papers or to, to write from their conscience.
01:28:45.400And, you know, to back it up with scholarship and facts and all those things, but to never compromise your, you know, your thinking for yourself about things that are important, so important to the world, because we need to have a diversity of views.
01:29:03.500We need to have a diversity of opinions.
01:29:10.620And so, you know, I think that having some support through, through FAIR to do that is really important in that way that'll give strength to, to students.
01:29:21.860Well, and just to underscore the, the organization, because I love FAIR and I'm on the advisory board, you've mentioned it a couple of times.
01:29:28.720So FAIR stands for Foundation Against Intolerance and Racism.
01:29:33.560And if you want to check it out, go to fairforall.org, fairforall.org.
01:29:39.580That's the organization that Paul and I are talking about.
01:29:42.500And, and we're trying to make this into kind of what the ACLU used to be, an organization that actually does fight for civil liberties, irrespective of political position, right?
01:29:54.360Irrespective of political correctness, the ACLU used to stand up for the right of even white supremacists to go out there and say all the crazy stuff they want to say.
01:30:03.000The crazies at the Westboro Baptist Church to go out there and say all the crazy stuff they want to say.
01:30:25.160So, I mean, I'm sad that you don't get to teach math.
01:30:28.240I'm, I'm sad that this, I don't know, that this, you know, this soft place to fall inside the church community is now gone, effectively gone and not going back.
01:30:39.040So what's next for you professionally and personally?
01:30:44.120Well, you know, I think, you know, the way I got into teaching math was through tutoring.
01:30:49.680And I had, I had been tutoring, you know, my, my background was in the humanities in college.
01:30:56.460And I, I always loved math in high school, but I came back to it for, you know, in tutoring for standardized tests and tutoring for enrichment.
01:31:03.000And so it's, it's, it's so wonderful to, I've started doing it again to tutor with, you know, working with the kid one-on-one and you really can understand how they think and you can help, you know, almost in a mentorship kind of way.
01:31:17.760And that's, that's, that I think could be very rewarding.
01:31:20.320And, you know, there, there have been offers coming in from schools.
01:31:25.080I will say this to teachers, if you stand up for this, you know, I, there, there's a school in Coral Gables that wants, you know, to hire me.
01:31:33.220There's schools that, that are reaching out to me now.
01:32:00.600It settles where it's supposed to settle.
01:32:02.920It, it, it, it's almost like a cleansing, you know, it, it cleanses you of this veneer of people you thought were in your corner and replaces them with people who actually are.
01:32:13.220They don't have to agree with you on everything.
01:32:15.380They just have to agree with you on certain foundational principles like free speech and the ability to disagree.
01:32:21.320Even if you are disagreeable at times, the ability to disagree and still go on in a, in an adult respectful relationship.
01:32:29.280And in, in certainly in the, in the case of education, that the respect for students and the unwillingness to demonize whole groups of them based on things well beyond their control.
01:32:42.080And it becomes fun to disagree with people that you share the same foundational principles with, because then, then it's like, it's almost like there's a camaraderie and, in, in difference, you know, and you can, you can see each other's differences and respect those because you know that you share those foundational principles and that you, you would have each other's back if anybody challenged those things and tried to take them away from you.
01:33:03.900But what a, it's such a, it's such a, but I have to say, so I feel about Andrew Gutman, who wrote the letter after pulling his, his child from Brearley.
01:33:37.720That was the reason I spoke out after pulling my kids. I got them out. I got them to what I consider safety. I really feel like I protected my kids. That's really why they're gone out of those schools.
01:33:50.300And now we do have an obligation to worry about the kids who are still there, still being hurt, kids who completely want to be supportive of diversity and positive race relations and a totally realistic assessment of our country's history and the sins of the past and the sins of the present and the fact that we haven't solved racism.
01:34:13.140But don't want to do any of that by just creating more racism and creating more division and breeding little racists. That's what's going to happen if these lessons continue to stand. That's the thing that really scares me.
01:34:29.820Yeah, I don't understand how you can be anti-racist but also pro-race. I understand people. How does that work? If you constantly are so aware of race, at what moment is it going to come when you actually come to terms and it all flips upside down and now suddenly race is as meaningless as eye color?
01:34:50.440Which I think is actually the only sane, you know, way to, you know, future that makes sense is to dismantle, actually yes, dismantle this folk taxonomy that race is, you know, which, you know, there's hundreds of ethnicities of white people, hundreds of ethnicities of black people and they vary, you know, within more than they do between.
01:35:12.380And so we know that race is a social construct and really, you know, a falsehood ultimately. So how do you get there when you're constantly being, you know, pro-racializing and pro-reifying, you know, this fundamental delusion that people have?
01:35:31.160No, you can't. It's staying in the cult. You can't, you can't get out of the Scientology cult, you know, by, by continuing to label people suppressive people and relying on the Thetans and doing the sessions with the Campbell's soup cans and like you've got to take a step away from the cult.
01:35:50.280I don't know what that is, but I don't want to know. I don't think I want to know.
01:35:53.580It's a thing. Wait, I want to ask you before I let you go. I do. I'm interested in how you got to be this way because I do think.
01:36:01.160Whatever moral code was imprinted on you made you one of the ones who said, no, no, I'm going to stand up. I'm not, I'm not going to have the regrets, you know, that Douglas Murray talks about. So is it a religious code? What, like, where are you from? And just give me a feeling for your background.
01:36:22.040I, um, I grew up in Ithaca, New York and my father.
01:36:25.180That's why I like you. Yes. I'm from Syracuse and Albany.
01:36:27.920Oh yeah. Great. Um, my father, uh, was a law professor at Cornell university. He taught evidence and civil procedure since I believe 1968. And I think he retired, uh, I'm not exactly sure, but he, maybe seven, eight years ago.
01:36:42.520Um, now, um, perhaps a little bit longer. And, you know, he always was a true civil libertarian. He was, and, you know, to this day, he's, he was a fierce liberal, um, in, you know, the age of Kennedy.
01:36:59.160And he, he, he was a Reagan Democrat. And then he became a conservative in his later years, but, but, you know, the first amendment, uh, and sort of not just the legal quality of it, but the social good that comes of it is he is a fierce defender of it.
01:37:16.340And he always, he always, he really did transplant those values to me. And, you know, I've tried to, I've tried to nurture the, you know, that in myself. And, um, and, you know, I think he, he, he taught me how to write. He, he taught me how to question.
01:37:35.400He taught me really how to think for myself. And I'm, I'm just eternally grateful to, to have him as a father. Um, and he still gives lectures at 88. He's, he's in a assisted living facility and he gives lectures to, to, um, the P and he's, and he's, you know, people really love him there. And, uh, he, he actually gave a, he gave a speech about, you mentioned the Skokie trial.
01:37:59.480So he's about to give a speech about the, uh, the Skokie trial.
01:38:05.900He's got to put it on zoom so we can, we can all see it. You're, you're not the only one grateful to him.
01:38:10.860Yeah. I would, I would, I've been trying to get him, you know, set up and he's like, no, no, I just like a room. I just want to be, you know, I just want to talk to the room.
01:38:18.820So, uh, yeah, he's, he's an, he's an old school teacher, I think, which is, he really valued teaching in a, in a world that was became more and more about publishing.
01:38:28.440Um, and so I, you know, that he's also a big reason why I think I, I really enjoy teaching.
01:38:35.680Yeah. Well, I mean, uh, growing up in upstate New York, I'm in Syracuse and Ithaca or more Western New York, but I do think, I don't, I've always said this, but I think that it's sort of similar to growing up in the Midwest.
01:38:46.040You have a sensibility about you, about life that I find very appealing.
01:38:50.820I think most people in those categories also have a connection with nature that is important.
01:38:55.460Like when you grew up surrounded by trees and in Ithaca, the gorges and just water and fresh air and time outside under the moon, under the stars, under the sun, it's just, it makes you smaller in a good way.
01:39:12.480It makes, you know, you appreciate your time here in a, in an important way.
01:39:19.840And, and I, I don't think it's any accident you're from Ithaca and had that dad wound up choosing the course you just chose.
01:39:27.600Hmm. Yeah, maybe so. I used to love the woods. I was, I was a kid that used to play in the woods with my neighbor, with the neighbor kids.
01:39:35.420And we had, you know, we, there, gosh, it was, we used to have these big rusty iron bars and we would play army and we would just, you know, smash each other with them.
01:39:44.960Yeah. You know, just for fun, play, play nights. And, you know, it was, it was a wonderful childhood, you know, in these, and these woods where, you know, it was, it was sort of the last, I think the last time when, you know, the kids would play together, you know, after school.
01:40:02.640And then they would go home for dinner, but they were unsupervised. I mean, we were essentially unsupervised and, you know, having the freedom to, to work out our differences, you know, and to sort of a little bit rough and tumble. I, I, I'm sad. I mean, I'm grateful to have grown up then, but I'm sad that a lot of kids don't have that today.
01:40:21.380Yeah. Well, it is one of the, one of the side effects of me pulling the kids, Doug and I pulling our kids from the New York City schools is we're going to move to the Burbs and our kids are going to get a childhood like that. I'm happy for it too. The woods is, I can relate to that. That's, I spent a lot of my time in the woods too. And I can't wait until they play games like the ones you just outlined instead of Dodge the Rat, which became a thing here in New York City over the pandemic.
01:41:00.360Listen, I'm so grateful to you for speaking out in every way and for speaking to me and our audience and, and rooting for you and looking forward to working with you at FAIR.
01:41:11.980Likewise, Megan, thanks so much for having me.
01:41:13.800Our thanks again to Paul Rossi for today. I want to tell you that on Monday, we have a great show. We were going to air it this week, but we postponed it because the show of Invert came out.
01:41:26.820We wanted to get you a reaction on that, but it's such a good show and it's on climate change.
01:41:32.040And what I think you're going to love about this is this is one of those areas where I just haven't been that studied.
01:41:38.580You know, I just, I'm not as well as, I'm not as well informed as I should be.
01:41:43.340And I kind of think sometimes that's a benefit to the audience, because if you are in the place I was before we did this interview, you're going to leave being like, oh, okay, I get it.
01:41:56.120And I don't feel alarmist about it, but I did learn and I understand the options better.
01:42:02.400And our guest is amazing. Walks you through it really clearly.
01:42:05.740He authored the book Apocalypse Never.
01:42:11.100So anyway, we're going to get into it on Monday.
01:42:13.320I think you're going to feel again, you know, like we say in the Kelly file, like cool water over a hot brain when you're done with that hour.