The Megyn Kelly Show - Abigail Shrier on the Teen Trans Trend, Feminism and Technology ｜ Ep. 12

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00:01:01.380 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:01:03.280 Your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:01:12.420 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:01:14.120 Welcome to the show.

00:01:15.100 Today, the book that people don't want you to read.

00:01:18.580 Or us to talk about.

00:01:20.160 But guess what?

00:01:20.940 We're going to do it.

00:01:22.140 It's called Irreversible Damage.

00:01:24.240 And it is important.

00:01:25.980 It's by Abigail Schreier, and it's been causing a lot of consternation.

00:01:30.020 The book is about the number of girls who are declaring themselves transgender and how that number is skyrocketing in modern-day America.

00:01:39.540 Abigail also touches on some really, really interesting ways of looking at feminism, for lack of a better word, and the messaging we're sending our daughters about what they must be and whether they're the right messages. 1.00

00:01:51.960 She's gotten all sorts of blowback for writing this thing.

00:01:55.080 But as you know, we don't believe in third rails in discussions here in America.

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00:03:27.240 And now, Abigail Schreier.

00:03:30.920 Abigail Schreier, thank you so much for being here.

00:03:33.680 Thank you so much for having me on.

00:03:34.980 Okay, so you were a writer for the Wall Street Journal.

00:03:38.360 You went to Columbia, Oxford, and Yale Law School.

00:03:41.840 So, you know, you're obviously a very smart person.

00:03:45.360 And what got you into writing this book, Irreversible Damage, and what preceded it, which was an article in the Wall Street Journal about gender dysphoria?

00:03:56.900 That's right.

00:03:57.500 I wrote a piece, actually, just about gender pronoun laws.

00:04:00.740 You know, these are the laws that assign criminal and civil penalties for failing to use someone's preferred pronoun.

00:04:07.780 And that's straightforwardly unconstitutional.

00:04:10.400 I just pointed that out, that in America, the government can't make people say things.

00:04:15.200 And a reader wrote to me, and she said, no one else will take this up, but I'm a mom.

00:04:20.060 My daughter always had a lot of mental health problems, but she was a very girly girl, had boyfriends in high school.

00:04:25.800 And she went off to college, and with a group of her friends, they all decided they were trans, and she started a course of testosterone. 1.00

00:04:32.640 And the woman told me this was happening to parents across the country.

00:04:36.120 They were watching their teenage girls do this, often after social media immersion.

00:04:41.040 And she said no one would write about it.

00:04:43.380 Right.

00:04:43.540 So, I mean, I have to tell you, just from my own perspective, living in New York and having my kids in the private schools here, there has definitely been a shift in the numbers of trans kids and the messaging from the schools on trans kids.

00:04:59.360 And if you talk to any parent here, they will acknowledge that.

00:05:01.800 And I know that you notice this phenomenon.

00:05:05.940 The question is whether, you know, what causes it.

00:05:08.260 But even in one of the schools here, there was like sort of a cluster of girls in one of the 10th grades at one of these private schools that sort of all came out as trans right at the same time.

00:05:20.160 And that looks unlike what we've traditionally seen trans, transgender teens look like. 0.95

00:05:30.940 Like they usually had a background where from age two or four, two to four, they knew it.

00:05:34.880 Right.

00:05:35.800 That's exactly right.

00:05:36.880 In fact, I interviewed a lot of transgender adults for the book, and their experience doesn't look anything like what we're seeing.

00:05:43.280 I get calls from parents from the toniest girls' schools in Manhattan, you know, to the public schools across the country, and they will tell me, you know, 30%, 20% of their daughter's 7th grade class is now decided they were transgender.

00:05:57.220 Those numbers don't make any sense.

00:05:59.060 And what's also crazy about them is that they're coming out with their friends within a very short period of time, often encouraged by social media gurus.

00:06:08.620 So this is not what traditional gender dysphoria, the severe discomfort in one's biological sex, looks like.

00:06:16.060 The problem is that they are pushing for hormones and surgeries, and they're getting them right away.

00:06:22.520 But what it looks like is pure contagion.

00:06:24.780 This looks like anorexia.

00:06:26.200 It looks like cutting.

00:06:27.240 It looks like bulimia.

00:06:28.580 Girls in a lot of pain sharing and spreading their pain. 0.99

00:06:32.520 And we'll get to the controversy over those conclusions in a bit, because Abigail, I mean, it's brave of her to come on.

00:06:41.780 It was brave of her to write this book.

00:06:43.840 She's received so much backlash from the activists within the trans community who don't speak for all trans people at all.

00:06:51.480 I mean, I know a lot of trans people.

00:06:52.780 I do.

00:06:53.020 And they don't subscribe to all the pushes that we get from activist trans people on how you can't talk about anything, right?

00:07:01.100 Otherwise, you're a bigot. 0.99

00:07:02.120 You're a transphobe. 0.91

00:07:03.020 Well, both.

00:07:04.360 I'm not a transphobe at all.

00:07:05.620 I've got transgender people in my family and trans friends.

00:07:09.880 And this isn't about adults who are transgender.

00:07:13.140 This is about what's happening to not just teenage girls, but tweens.

00:07:16.340 You know, we're talking as young as 11, 12, who identify as girls their whole life.

00:07:22.180 They're biological girls. 0.99

00:07:23.540 Identify as girls their whole lives.

00:07:24.960 And then suddenly decide at age 11, they come out saying, nope, I'm a boy.

00:07:29.920 And before you know it, they're getting hormones.

00:07:33.040 They're getting dangerous, potentially dangerous hormones that, as Abigail points out in the title, could cause irreversible damage.

00:07:41.040 Just to set it up for our audience.

00:07:42.800 Okay.

00:07:43.000 So you start doing your research.

00:07:44.320 You decide you're going to write this book.

00:07:45.480 And as I read it, you spoke with, I'm going to give you the folks on the list, physicians, endocrinologists, psychiatrists, world-renowned psychologists specializing in gender dysphoria, psychotherapists, transgender adolescents, transgender adults, de-sisters, people who were going down that path and then decided they weren't trans, and de-transitioners, people who actually started to, I guess, physically transition, right?

00:08:09.860 And then decided to reverse it.

00:08:12.140 Yeah, that's right.

00:08:12.660 Okay.

00:08:13.200 Okay.

00:08:13.820 And what was the number one takeaway that you came to in doing your research?

00:08:19.560 Well, you know, it's based on the public health researcher Lisa Littman's work at Brown University.

00:08:24.780 She was the first one to really do a scientific study of this.

00:08:28.160 And what she noticed was that, you know, this looked a lot like other peer contagions.

00:08:35.300 We know that teenage girls who are in pain, and these girls are in a lot of pain, they're in a lot of, they have anxiety and depression in numbers we've never before seen.

00:08:44.680 We know that girls look to the culture to help them understand their pain.

00:08:48.360 So in prior eras, they might've said, oh, I'm so fat.

00:08:50.900 If I just lost more weight, I'd be happy.

00:08:52.760 I know, I know I would.

00:08:53.920 And today they're looking at their bodies and saying, I feel so, you know, unfeminine.

00:08:58.880 If I only shed this female body, I know I would be happy. 1.00

00:09:02.320 And it's such a difference from the way we grew up when that was just called puberty, you know, like it's, it's normal to feel uncomfortable in your body, to feel gross, to feel unattractive, to wonder if you belong, to wonder if there's another way that you could belong better.

00:09:20.460 But when we were growing up, this was not, you know, for lack of a better term, an option.

00:09:26.100 It wasn't a socially accepted option.

00:09:30.060 And now it's becoming like an option.

00:09:32.660 It's not a thing you were born with or weren't born with.

00:09:35.160 It's like, maybe you could just switch genders and things would get better for you. 1.00

00:09:39.700 That's right.

00:09:40.640 And it's not, you know, in prior eras, if someone came out, you know, decided they were anorexic or decided their problem was they were so fat, their doctors didn't agree with that and affirm it.

00:09:52.580 Their teachers didn't celebrate it at school.

00:09:56.280 They didn't go to online mentors who encouraged it.

00:09:59.540 But today, and they didn't go to doctors who supplied all the medications for weight loss.

00:10:03.840 But today, that's what we're seeing with gender dysphoria. 1.00

00:10:06.600 These girls who are lonely, who are in a lot of pain, they come out and it's a nonstop fast track to transition. 0.98

00:10:12.860 And they get so much celebration that they're afraid to let go of it.

00:10:16.560 It's like in an attempt, in a good faith, laudable attempt to reduce the bullying that trans kids, trans people were genuinely facing.

00:10:27.360 We like we often do overcorrected to the point now where any gender confusion is treated as a confirmed case of gender dysphoria.

00:10:36.180 I mean, the rule basically is if you think you're trans, you are period. 0.64

00:10:40.020 And if you try to explore it, you're a bigot.

00:10:43.640 That's exactly right.

00:10:45.980 And that goes for the parents, too.

00:10:47.420 Parents call me.

00:10:48.180 These are overwhelmingly liberal parents.

00:10:50.560 These are politically progressives.

00:10:52.140 They've always considered themselves allies.

00:10:54.100 But when their 12-year-old daughter comes out to them as trans because she heard it in a school assembly and thinks she heard from a school, you know, assembly where a kid came out as trans and now she thinks she might be, the parents say, OK, honey, well, hold on.

00:11:09.020 You know, I don't think we should start any medical transitions.

00:11:12.220 Let's wait and see.

00:11:13.700 The moment the parents do that, they're considered transphobes.

00:11:16.760 And in some cases, they're worried about losing custody.

00:11:19.000 And what's happening is the girls and the school communities join together to work against those parents.

00:11:27.980 So if the parent says, hold on, babe, you know, we've had a rough time in our family the past couple of years or you got bullied, you feel socially awkward.

00:11:36.260 It's possible this isn't gender dysphoria.

00:11:38.400 It's possible this is you looking to find a better social landing place, one that's actually very accepted now and actually not only accepted but celebrated in a lot of circles.

00:11:46.920 It's possible that's what's happening.

00:11:48.200 So why don't we explore that?

00:11:50.000 Then the parents are labeled transphobic by the community, by the daughter, oftentimes, by the online influencers they're listening to.

00:11:57.860 And can you just tell the audience what the schools are now doing with kids in this mindset?

00:12:05.260 So in California, New York, I've also heard New Jersey, the school policy is to keep it from parents if the children come out as trans.

00:12:12.820 So remember that the schools are, first of all, encouraging the idea of self-discovery of gender ideology.

00:12:20.300 They introduce the idea that only a child knows their own gender.

00:12:25.320 So they tell this to the kids.

00:12:26.620 And they encourage gender exploration.

00:12:28.980 Sometimes it's part of the curriculum.

00:12:30.360 And then when the child chooses a new gender, they actively hide it from the parents. 0.90

00:12:36.080 There's actually a form that they fill out.

00:12:38.280 And the line that I've heard from teachers is, home is not a safe place for trans kids.

00:12:43.580 That happened to people we know through friends at a New York City private school where their child came home and one day told the parents that I think it was a boy transitioning to girl, you know, identified as a boy at birth.

00:13:01.220 And, you know, I'm short forming the language.

00:13:02.780 I realized that to not be offensive to, you know, certain trans activists and transgender people, you have to say it like with 50 words to get to the one.

00:13:11.280 So with respect, what I mean is identified as a boy at birth who identified more as a girl.

00:13:16.180 So he wanted to transition to being a girl.

00:13:18.500 He comes home.

00:13:19.080 He tells his parents.

00:13:20.860 And the parents are like, OK, this is something we're going to have to wrestle with.

00:13:24.460 We're going to have to think about this.

00:13:26.100 They go to the school to say, look, I want to let you know he's going through a thing.

00:13:30.760 He thinks he's identifying as a girl.

00:13:32.800 So he may be at some point wanting to use a new name.

00:13:35.220 The school is like, oh, we know all about it.

00:13:37.060 He's been doing it for a year.

00:13:38.580 They're like, what?

00:13:40.000 Why don't you tell us?

00:13:41.120 It is the school policy not to tell.

00:13:44.180 And your book points out it may actually be the school policy to affirmatively work to conceal.

00:13:50.620 That's right.

00:13:51.220 I talked to one woman whose daughter I call Maddie in the book.

00:13:54.080 Her seventh grader came home and decided she was trans based on a school assembly. 0.65

00:14:00.420 And the girl had not only been identifying as a boy for a year, but she was actually able to go on an overnight trip and stay with the boys.

00:14:08.540 Her mother had no idea she'd been using this male identity.

00:14:12.440 It had been kept from her.

00:14:13.940 And interestingly, of course, being called the boy's name for a year and using the boy's facilities tends to solidify in your mind the idea that you really aren't a girl.

00:14:23.460 You really are a boy.

00:14:24.720 So needless to say, the girl was very confused.

00:14:27.560 What do the schools say about parental rights to know what's happening with their children, their minor children?

00:14:34.040 You know, the parent parental rights are so diminished today.

00:14:38.820 It's unbelievable what they will say.

00:14:40.680 They have a real heroes complex at the school and the schools.

00:14:43.460 And the idea is that they are saving the school.

00:14:46.980 They are saving the children from bully parents, parents who are not LGBTQ accepting.

00:14:52.680 And the irony is, of course, not only are these parents incredibly LGBTQ accepting and affirming,

00:14:59.200 and certainly in their politics and even with their daughters, when they come home and say they're pansexual,

00:15:04.640 they embrace their daughters, not only that, but it's actually been the opposite has been occurring.

00:15:12.720 Most of the parents I talk to are desperate to stay in touch with their daughters.

00:15:16.480 But actually, once their daughters come out as trans, they very often, the next move is to cut off the parents. 1.00

00:15:22.500 Can you just define pansexual?

00:15:24.780 Oh, sorry.

00:15:25.660 Pansexual is the new bi. 0.98

00:15:27.040 It means you are attracted to both.

00:15:30.080 We don't say, they don't say bi anymore because that means there are only two genders. 0.96

00:15:34.400 And in gender ideology, believers think there are many, many.

00:15:39.380 And just so the audience gets it, because the terms are overwhelming.

00:15:42.160 There's so many now.

00:15:43.120 There's like literally a list of you could be 200 different genders or 200 different sexualities.

00:15:49.960 Just don't confuse sexuality for gender issues.

00:15:54.860 They are potentially two different things.

00:15:57.140 They might cross over, and today's day and age makes it extra confusing.

00:16:00.460 But gender is about whether you're a man or a woman, and sexuality is about who you are attracted to.

00:16:07.140 And they get confused.

00:16:09.560 They're totally different.

00:16:10.240 Yeah, they're totally different.

00:16:11.800 And I just want to say, my book is about irreversible damage.

00:16:15.400 It's about the harm that kids do when they start on this gender journey. 1.00

00:16:19.040 This is not about LGBTQ experimentation, which comes with no irreversible harm.

00:16:26.320 And what you point out in the book is that typically this gender dysphoria, this wondering, this confusion about whether you've been born into, quote, the right body, the right biological sex body, in 70% of cases it resolves on its own?

00:16:42.120 Historically, it has, yeah.

00:16:44.760 When a kid went through this, we have a 100-year history of what they call gender dysphoria, severe discomfort, and once biological sex.

00:16:51.080 So we know what it looks like.

00:16:52.720 And historically, over 70% of the kids just naturally outgrew it.

00:16:57.300 Today, of course, they're being affirmed all over the place, at school, by psychologists, by doctors, by their friends, by their online gurus.

00:17:06.860 So today, you know, we're likely to see much less desistance and much less outgrowingness.

00:17:14.320 And just to put a point on the end of the school discussion, I know that, like, the L.A. schools are saying parental rights end at the school door.

00:17:22.400 That's it.

00:17:23.300 You know, you drop them off here, they're ours, and we really have no obligation to inform you what they're being called, how they're identifying,

00:17:29.940 or even if they're leaving school grounds during the school day to go get gender hormones.

00:17:38.160 If your daughter wants to start taking testosterone, she can leave school grounds, like, during school hours, right, and go get it without them telling the parents.

00:17:48.600 Yeah, that was the policy adopted by the California Teachers Association, so they approved that policy.

00:17:54.140 You know, what was interesting about when I interviewed these teachers is what you just said was right.

00:17:58.240 They insist that this is, that school has to be a safe space for trans kids.

00:18:03.920 They keep saying that over and over.

00:18:05.460 The thing is, in Southern California, who are they talking about?

00:18:08.200 Where are the bullies?

00:18:09.140 Kids are really used to LGBTQ kids. 0.99

00:18:12.120 So where are the bullies?

00:18:13.080 Well, when I did the investigation, I started realizing that the bullies they're talking about are the parents.

00:18:17.860 Well, the L.A. schools have been very open about how they see their role as pushing social justice.

00:18:23.840 And I can tell you here in New York, 100% the same.

00:18:26.640 I mean, we've experienced that firsthand.

00:18:28.240 That they fully, willingly say now they're pushing a social justice agenda.

00:18:34.380 And they're getting their materials from some far-left groups that is now being filtered down to our kids, Abigail.

00:18:41.740 That's right.

00:18:42.580 The materials are completely supplied by the activists.

00:18:45.600 And the teachers are trained by activists.

00:18:47.900 So the materials are really, really radical. 0.97

00:18:50.480 And here in California, they wanted to do the materials they introduced not only, you know, teach masturbation, but they encourage things like all kinds of anal sex is discussed throughout their curriculum. 0.91

00:19:02.120 But the most radical of all, in some sense, is when they try to teach kindergartners that just because you were assigned male at birth doesn't mean you're really a boy. 0.91

00:19:12.600 What your true gender is, is something only you can know.

00:19:16.180 Mm-hmm.

00:19:17.440 They introduced them.

00:19:18.840 We experienced this, too, at one of our schools.

00:19:21.060 They introduced the littles, the young kids.

00:19:23.820 In our school, it was third grade.

00:19:25.140 It wasn't kindergarten.

00:19:25.980 But I know what's happening in L.A. in kindergarten.

00:19:28.080 To this, quote, gender-bred person.

00:19:30.480 Where it's this little, I mean, this happened at our school, where they show the kids this little gender-bred person and talk about how your gender is determined in your head.

00:19:40.540 That's because they believe that gender is a social construct.

00:19:44.460 And in our school, they were teaching our eight-year-olds that.

00:19:48.200 And the boys were confused.

00:19:49.900 They were confused.

00:19:51.620 The parents were not kept in a loop on what exactly was being shared.

00:19:55.000 And ultimately, the school apologized because they went so far out on a limb with a three-week experimental program on this that the parents were like, even for New York City parents, this is a bit much.

00:20:08.640 Now, at our school, you could opt out if you wanted to.

00:20:11.840 And parents really weren't communicated to in an effective way at our school, which is why they apologized.

00:20:16.600 But you can't always opt out of this.

00:20:19.620 In California, you cannot opt out.

00:20:21.740 And it was done deliberately that way.

00:20:23.200 The way they did it was they put this not in the sexual orientation, sorry, the sexual education curriculum, which you can opt out of.

00:20:30.720 They put it in the anti-bullying curriculum, which no one can opt out of.

00:20:35.180 So that's how they sort of hid it in the curriculum.

00:20:37.760 It's mandatory.

00:20:38.700 And it begins in kindergarten.

00:20:40.960 Wow.

00:20:41.580 And, like, think of how confusing that is for a kid who doesn't, they don't, they haven't even thought about it.

00:20:47.860 Unless they are, because, you know, as you point out, transgender issues have normally traditionally struck between the ages of two and four. 0.70

00:20:56.380 And the kid knows.

00:20:57.600 And if you talk to transgender adults, most of them will tell you, oh, I knew. 0.66

00:21:01.060 I knew my entire life.

00:21:02.400 When I was a little boy, I knew I was in the wrong body.

00:21:04.820 I was wearing the dresses.

00:21:05.880 I wanted to do the ballet.

00:21:07.000 I didn't want to do the football.

00:21:07.880 Well, they have that story.

00:21:10.900 And so, but that's been a very tiny percentage of people, historically, 0.01% of the population.

00:21:18.560 But now they're talking to every kid like they might have it, like this is something they should consider.

00:21:23.680 That's right.

00:21:24.240 I mean, it was even smaller for women. 0.80

00:21:26.980 For women, it was one in 30,000. 0.99

00:21:28.940 So it was 0.003%.

00:21:31.500 So a number that rounds to zero.

00:21:34.060 It's a very small number.

00:21:35.380 And today, you're seeing such high numbers.

00:21:38.000 I get calls from parents, as I said before, 15% of their daughter's class, seventh grade class is coming out.

00:21:44.620 We know that 2% of American high school students are now saying they're trans.

00:21:50.320 That's hundreds of over 300,000 kids.

00:21:54.720 More with Abigail in a minute.

00:21:56.220 But first, Legacy Box.

00:21:58.320 This thing is an ingenious mail-in service to have all of your wonderful memories that are trapped right now on VHS tapes

00:22:04.540 or camcorder tapes or film reels or old pictures converted to DVD or digital.

00:22:09.540 Doug and I just noticed the other day that we have two out of our three children's births on our iPhones.

00:22:16.400 Not the actual birth.

00:22:17.480 Let's not get graphic.

00:22:19.120 But you know, the trip to the hospital, the fun moments beforehand, except for our oldest child, who was born in 2009, which is now considered the Dark Ages.

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00:23:08.740 And now, back to Abigail.

00:23:10.280 Thank you.

00:23:40.280 So steeply.

00:23:42.240 And she came up with this term, rapid onset gender dysphoria, which that is driving the trans activists nuts.

00:23:51.240 They say it's not a real thing.

00:23:53.100 She's not.

00:23:54.140 This isn't a medical body doing this research.

00:23:58.560 But and they say you can't trust this woman's study because what she did was she went to parents to talk about it. 0.91

00:24:05.120 And their analogy was that's like going to the Klan to ask if racism is bad, that if you ask parents, they're going to say it's all bad and that our kids have been forced into this and that they didn't talk to the right people.

00:24:17.980 Yeah, that's a very silly thing to say, but, you know, because, of course, with mental health health problems of adolescence and minor children, you always survey the parents.

00:24:29.580 That's the only way to get an accurate mental health diagnosis for children.

00:24:32.840 And, you know, these girls end up with with terrible harm. 0.98

00:24:38.540 You know, once they start down this course, you know, I think of one woman, Desmond, who, you know, came out in high school as trans.

00:24:46.080 She decided, you know, she must be a boy.

00:24:49.340 She was celebrated everywhere.

00:24:50.860 She was very, very lonely.

00:24:52.060 She was celebrated in the high school.

00:24:53.220 Everyone encouraged her.

00:24:54.180 And she started a course of testosterone and it caused uterine cramping, severe uterine cramping, necessitating a hysterectomy because it causes uterine atrophy. 0.97

00:25:04.940 And she woke up at 21 realizing this whole thing had been a terrible mistake.

00:25:10.020 Oh, I mean, that's the thing.

00:25:12.320 And I don't really care if people say we're not allowed to talk about it.

00:25:15.640 We have to talk about it for the sake of our daughters who are getting swept up in something that may not for them be real.

00:25:22.560 And for others, it may be.

00:25:23.780 So there's nothing wrong with talking about it.

00:25:26.500 That doesn't mean you go and shame girls who are maybe having this experience.

00:25:31.140 I mean, there is a way of being supportive but exploratory and open and honest.

00:25:35.960 And the desire to pretend that's not a possible lane by these activists ignores a parent's love for one's child.

00:25:44.560 I mean, there's a reason they let the parent make decisions for the child legally.

00:25:48.140 It's because the law, even the law presumes a loving, caring relationship from parent to child.

00:25:54.920 I mean, parents are so denigrated.

00:25:57.840 But when these girls wake up with regret, and a lot of them do, we're already seeing very high numbers of regret because these young girls didn't have real gender dysphoria to begin with.

00:26:07.420 So they are not helped by transition.

00:26:09.460 They really have a lot of mental health issues.

00:26:11.220 They're not helped by transition.

00:26:12.480 When they wake up with regret, who do you think is there for them?

00:26:15.840 It's not the therapist who celebrated it.

00:26:18.380 It's not the doctor who pushed it.

00:26:20.080 It's the parents who are asking them to please just wait.

00:26:23.060 And it's not, from what I gather in your book, it's not parents who are saying, no, never, or anti-trans.

00:26:29.820 I mean, I'm sure there's some percentage that feel that way.

00:26:31.940 But it's oftentimes parents who say, very open-minded to transgender and gender dysphoria issues, will completely love you if that is you.

00:26:42.640 But let's make sure that's you before we start doing anything rash.

00:26:47.200 That's right.

00:26:47.820 It's parents who have raised these girls, and they know them their whole life.

00:26:50.320 And they say, honey, you were always very girly.

00:26:52.960 You're just going through a tough time in adolescence.

00:26:55.320 There's no reason to rush to remove your breasts. 1.00

00:26:58.300 That's not an unreasonable comment to make.

00:27:01.240 Well, and it's like, so they call that top surgery, your book points out.

00:27:05.400 And, you know, the thought is, oh, I can always have the breasts put back if this doesn't work out, which is completely underestimates the radical nature of breast surgery and how that would go if they removed all your breast tissue and then just tried to give you implants back. 0.99

00:27:18.800 And a lot of people who have undergone this for medical reasons can testify to the difficulties that can pose.

00:27:24.100 But it's more than that.

00:27:25.620 Can you just talk about the drug sequence that some of these girls are choosing and what it does? 0.99

00:27:31.460 Sure.

00:27:32.880 So I think about Helen, a young woman I interviewed who was convinced she went through a really hard time in adolescence.

00:27:38.800 She didn't have friends.

00:27:39.660 And then she came out with her friends as trans.

00:27:42.360 And she really decided, and she was in a terribly rebellious period, really not getting along with mom and dad.

00:27:47.240 And she decided when she hit 18, she was going to go to get testosterone. 0.72

00:27:50.640 So you don't even need a therapist note.

00:27:52.540 She drove to a clinic when she turned 18, got a course of testosterone, and started right away. 1.00

00:27:58.540 And within the few months, permanent changes start occurring, like the deepening of your voice, changes to private anatomy.

00:28:06.160 It raises risk of cardiovascular disease.

00:28:09.160 And then the big one is infertility.

00:28:11.140 Right.

00:28:12.540 So the way infertility happens is if your daughter comes to you and says, I think I might be trans, and you want to postpone puberty, you want to give her the time to figure that out before puberty begins.

00:28:25.540 Some parents are doing this with girls who are that young. 1.00

00:28:28.820 They haven't even started puberty yet.

00:28:30.640 And the danger comes when you go, what, directly from those puberty postponing drugs to cross-gender hormones like testosterone?

00:28:41.140 Yes.

00:28:41.640 So the infertility can happen a few ways.

00:28:43.780 If you go from puberty blockers, which stop female puberty, it stops your puberty, and then goes, which is, you know, what they do with younger girls who are in just the first stages of puberty, and then go to cross-sex hormones, because you can't stay on the puberty blockers forever.

00:28:58.840 So usually about two years, you're on them.

00:29:01.140 Then you go to cross-sex hormones.

00:29:02.600 At that point, you will never be fertile.

00:29:04.680 And that's pretty certain.

00:29:06.860 But girls who go straight to testosterone, this very often causes uterine atrophy and vaginal atrophy. 0.93

00:29:13.400 And what that means is it can cause very high chance of endometrial cancer.

00:29:19.840 So very often doctors will recommend a prophylactic hysterectomy because of testosterone use for a few years.

00:29:26.920 I mean, that is just, that's scary.

00:29:29.200 I mean, that's downright scary.

00:29:30.320 As supportive as you want to be of your child's issues, if this is one of them, for God's sake, you need to make sure.

00:29:37.180 You need to make sure this is going to have serious, serious health outcomes as a result.

00:29:42.840 And it's not just those, which are the most serious.

00:29:45.840 But if you start taking testosterone and then decide you were wrong, you were just going through a phase, and you are a girl, you're not a boy.

00:29:56.260 What, I mean, can you get rid of all the testosterone side effects easily?

00:30:00.680 No, some of them are permanent.

00:30:02.320 So your voice never goes back.

00:30:04.060 Your features may change.

00:30:05.280 You'll probably, you know, like some women I talk to, have a five o'clock shadow for the rest of your life. 1.00

00:30:10.980 I mean, it really, testosterone obviously changes the way you look.

00:30:13.780 It gives you facial hair.

00:30:14.740 It gives you a more rounded nose, more rounded face in a lot of cases.

00:30:17.740 And it's like, God, you got to make sure.

00:30:20.700 And one of the problems your book points out, this is probably the most scary part of it, is that the medical standard now, the medical standard is to affirm, affirm, affirm, affirm.

00:30:35.320 How can that be?

00:30:36.600 How can the psychiatrists and the psychologists not be in a place of probing possible underlying issues that may be confusing a girl?

00:30:45.980 That's right.

00:30:47.300 It's the only area of medicine in which the doctors are told your job is to agree with the patient's self-diagnosis.

00:30:54.640 And this is what's known as affirmative care.

00:30:57.140 And what it means is that this area of medicine has become so politicized that the doctor just has to agree and rubber stamp whatever the patient says.

00:31:06.160 This is crazy.

00:31:08.480 I actually asked my own therapist about this, and he said 100% right, that that is what they're told.

00:31:13.820 And even when they do rounds in the hospital, if they go up to a patient and they say, patient is a 45-year-old woman, presents it, he'll get interrupted by his resident saying, how do you know it's a woman?

00:31:24.480 You know, and he's looking at the patient in the bed, but now we're not even allowed to presume gender or we're bigoted.

00:31:30.940 And so the medical professionals from the American Medical Association, American Academy of Pediatrics, American Psychiatric Association, all these, the endocrine society, on and on it goes, they all say, you need to affirm.

00:31:47.960 So if a kid just comes in and says, I think I might be, they're not supposed to say, well, why?

00:31:55.400 Maybe it's something else.

00:31:57.520 That's right.

00:31:58.320 We have conversion therapy laws in 19 states, which actually say that a therapist is not allowed to so-called convert someone out of their gender identity, which means that a therapist who says to a kid, listen, you have a lot of mental health things going on.

00:32:15.780 Let's not jump to this, is really at risk of losing their license.

00:32:20.500 How is that converting as opposed to working on diagnosing?

00:32:25.080 You know, these conversion therapy laws are actually a really Trojan horse because they say they are to ban, you know, gay conversion therapy, which traditionally involved some very grisly, very ugly practices. 0.99

00:32:37.920 But they slipped gender identity language in.

00:32:40.820 So you can't even talk a kid, you know, help a kid feel comfortable in their own body, which was always how this was treated historically.

00:32:50.200 So parents who are looking for help with this, parents whose child comes to them and says, I'm having this issue.

00:32:55.420 And those are the lucky ones, because a lot of the times the teens say nothing to the parents.

00:32:59.120 They just live on YouTube.

00:33:01.040 And we'll get to that.

00:33:01.980 But the parents, I mean, the answer is not necessarily go to a therapist.

00:33:08.820 That's right.

00:33:09.620 I mean, you know, they, they, the answer is not go to a therapist because a lot of the therapists, you know, I talked to parents whose therapists were pushing, you know, transition on the kid and the parents had no idea.

00:33:21.800 And in fact, they had promised the parents they wouldn't do that.

00:33:24.900 And yet they had been affirming the child for a year, calling them, yes, Jimmy, no, you're definitely a boy going along, you know, encouraging this in the child's mind.

00:33:33.740 Oh, my.

00:33:34.420 I mean, so these parents are in a position where they've got the school community working against them.

00:33:38.600 They've got the therapists who they bring in in good faith, working against them.

00:33:42.720 And then they've got their daughters who don't see them as a safe space because they either presume the parents won't support or in fact have received pushback from the parents that make them believe they won't be supported.

00:33:52.840 So the parents are strong armed out of all of this while potential drugs are being sought, potential surgical choices are being investigated.

00:34:02.480 And you point out in the book, Irreversible Damage, one of the main culprits in all this, one of the place they're going that they do get information from is YouTube and other online sites.

00:34:15.640 That's right.

00:34:16.420 Teens today are spending a huge amount of time online.

00:34:19.560 And what they're what they're finding there is, you know, these YouTube influencers and other social media influencers who are a little older than they are.

00:34:27.080 They're in their 20s.

00:34:27.900 They're trans and they promise that if you just start a course of testosterone, you're going to feel great. 0.97

00:34:34.300 And unfortunately, these videos queue up automatically.

00:34:36.920 You don't even have to go looking for them.

00:34:38.840 And they're very hypnotic.

00:34:40.420 They're very well produced.

00:34:41.440 I was able to interview some some influencers and they and unfortunately, you know, depending on the young person's age and 15 at 15 in Oregon, they're able to go out and get these drugs from themselves without even parental approval.

00:34:55.540 Hmm. And you know how it is like you.

00:34:58.540 I mean, I don't know.

00:34:59.520 Would parental controls block these websites?

00:35:02.640 I can see how it blocks pornography, but would it block these?

00:35:06.840 It's a good question.

00:35:08.180 I don't think so, but I don't know.

00:35:10.380 I mean, I think that, you know, I'm sure you can get parental controls that are sophisticated enough.

00:35:15.180 But people, you know, I talk to parents whose daughters went on to art sharing websites.

00:35:21.700 So the ostensibly the site wasn't even about gender at all, except that lots of transgender activists tended to congregate there and would redirect people towards, you know, other trans influencers.

00:35:35.700 I mean, and even parental, I mean, by the time your kid is a teenager, parental controls, I think, are largely done.

00:35:42.720 I mean, they're going to find a way to get access to unfiltered Internet.

00:35:47.020 Doug and I talk about this all the time because we have three kids and it's like that's coming.

00:35:50.980 They're there right now.

00:35:51.740 They're 11, 9 and 7.

00:35:52.740 But we know that's coming.

00:35:54.540 And the question, I think, for a lot of parents is, do you ban the kid from having any access to that stuff or do you allow it and just try to be as involved as possible in talking to them about the dangers, the dangerous corners of the Internet and how damaging it could be?

00:36:11.980 And I think it depends on the age.

00:36:14.080 I'm not going to sit back and let my 11-year-old search unfiltered and see pornography.

00:36:19.140 I think that could be genuinely damaging to him.

00:36:21.360 But I know from the studies, we attended this seminar at one of our schools last year, that it was something like just over the majority of 12-year-old boys have seen pornography on the Internet.

00:36:32.780 12.

00:36:33.880 So it's a losing battle for parents.

00:36:37.440 It is a losing battle, especially because the schools direct them to the Internet all the time.

00:36:41.520 But the Internet is a very, very bad place.

00:36:44.080 There's no question for young teens, but especially teenage girls, because they're constantly comparing their bodies to these images.

00:36:50.620 They're constantly looking to see how many more friends other girls have, and they're not spending time with each other.

00:36:56.980 So they're not getting emotionally filled up, and they're going on these sites that are so emotionally draining and make them feel so bad.

00:37:04.600 And a lot of other psychologists have connected this to the spiking rates of anxiety and depression among teenage girls.

00:37:11.500 Right.

00:37:11.680 Like that's where it starts.

00:37:13.220 You talk about this in the book.

00:37:14.240 Where does it start?

00:37:15.180 Like who is at risk?

00:37:16.180 Like, and I guess the answer is potentially anyone, but you start from the position that there is greater loneliness being reported by these teens, teens today, than any other generation on record.

00:37:31.060 Why?

00:37:31.460 That's right, because they're going, they're spending a lot less time.

00:37:35.960 Gene Twenge is the psychologist who did the research on this.

00:37:39.740 They're spending a lot less time with each other in person and a lot more time online, up to an hour less in person per day than previous generations.

00:37:47.740 And even when they're together, they're not spending time together.

00:37:50.560 They're on their phones.

00:37:51.620 So they don't get filled up.

00:37:53.800 And at the same time, they're fighting this losing competition for status on social media.

00:37:58.540 They never feel good enough.

00:37:59.900 The images they're comparing themselves to are so perfect.

00:38:03.800 It was hard enough when we were girls and we just had the magazines with all these women who looked, quote, perfect. 1.00

00:38:09.780 Now it's out of control.

00:38:11.960 You know, now it's next level.

00:38:13.680 And, you know, not to blame it on the Kardashians because you either seek that kind of product out or teach your daughter that that's a good thing to look at or you don't.

00:38:21.140 But that's what our culture is, the selfie culture, the filters, the false presentation of surgically altered bodies as though that's easily attainable and anything else is less than.

00:38:31.600 That's what these kids have to grow up in now.

00:38:33.460 You would feel lonely.

00:38:35.080 You'd feel anxious and depressed as they do.

00:38:37.440 That's right.

00:38:39.240 I mean, girlhood, when you go through puberty as a young woman, it's a hard time for every girl.

00:38:44.760 And that's what they don't know.

00:38:46.780 And it used to be something that you went through and you listen to music and you talk to your girlfriends or you wrote in your diary.

00:38:53.420 And it was a private experience of, you know, difficulty.

00:38:57.580 And today they have no private experience.

00:38:59.780 It's entirely public and they never get to digest it.

00:39:03.900 Everything is online and everything that they're comparing themselves to makes them feel worse.

00:39:09.720 I like these influencers online.

00:39:11.740 Some of these young women are starting to do this where they'll show themselves pre-filter and they'll show the magic of the filter, how, you know, their normal female bellies stick out 1.00

00:39:22.360 and have some fat on them.

00:39:24.020 And if you stick them out or if you're feeling bloated, they look like you're five months pregnant. 0.70

00:39:27.920 But if you suck them in and you're having a good day, they can look like washboard abs.

00:39:32.040 That stuff is healthy, you know, but there's 3% of that and 97% of the other.

00:39:38.440 But so that leads me to the question of who?

00:39:41.340 Who is at risk for this?

00:39:43.180 What is there a, you know, are there general characteristics of the family, of the girls that would lead parents out there to say,

00:39:50.940 okay, we have a red flag on our sort of typical family and what do I look for?

00:39:57.760 So by and large, these are middle class and upper middle class white girls. 1.00

00:40:01.780 Now, not all, but the bulk of them are.

00:40:04.120 These are, they are very precocious.

00:40:05.760 These are very bright girls and they've been very tended by mom.

00:40:09.500 So they really, they struggle socially.

00:40:12.040 They don't make friends easily.

00:40:13.840 They're very bright and they're in their heads a lot and they're online a lot.

00:40:17.400 Now, what do you mean coddled by mom? 0.99

00:40:19.840 Because, I mean, in today's day and age, everything's, it's all about being the helicopter.

00:40:24.460 Right.

00:40:24.980 I mean, that's, that's part of the problem is that girls go off to school, you know, to university at 18, 1.00

00:40:30.100 but they really emotionally are like a 16 year old or a 14 year old because they've never been allowed to take any risks.

00:40:36.760 You know, mom made sure that they never, ever smoked a cigarette.

00:40:39.160 Mom made sure that they were never hanging out with a bad girl in person.

00:40:43.180 And mom made sure mom, even today, more and more kids are bringing mom along on their, you know, hang up, hangouts.

00:40:51.480 They're, they, the mom comes with them. 1.00

00:40:53.160 Sometimes they can't drive.

00:40:54.660 So, um, they are never able to go through the maturing process that happens when you're away from mom.

00:41:01.400 Um, and so then they turn to these gurus online for advice.

00:41:04.680 And unfortunately the ones online are really, really bad influences.

00:41:08.060 So when you say, I, you know, you say that some of these girls lack rebellion, I mean, isn't this an act of rebellion? 0.97

00:41:14.680 So what is the point?

00:41:15.840 Like a little, a little steam out of the tea kettle here and there will help avoid the huge eruption.

00:41:23.260 You know, it is, it is in some sense of form of rebellion, but, but really what it is, is just saying, mom, I need space to be me.

00:41:30.500 And moms today won't give you the space very often. 1.00

00:41:33.760 What they will do is they'll say, I'll come to the rock concert with you.

00:41:36.700 I'll drive your friends.

00:41:37.880 Do you want an ear piercing?

00:41:39.240 I'll get one with you.

00:41:40.340 And the problem is the young girl never has a chance to individuate and the, and be her own person.

00:41:45.600 She, she doesn't really rebel in the traditional way.

00:41:48.100 She has no space to.

00:41:49.360 And so finally she says, you know what, mom, I'm not nothing like you.

00:41:52.800 I'm a boy.

00:41:53.920 And I know you say that one of the other flags is that the, for these, a lot of these girls, their bodies are a mystery to them.

00:42:01.000 They, they may never have been kissed.

00:42:02.500 They may never have touched themselves sexually.

00:42:04.200 So how are we supposed to, you know, cross that bridge with our kids?

00:42:09.140 Because I think as open-minded as a lot of us are, it's not like I want to sit down with my daughter and say, why don't you give this a try?

00:42:14.900 It's going to feel great.

00:42:16.040 That may be pushing it a little far.

00:42:18.540 So what are we supposed to do?

00:42:19.520 Well, one thing is kids should be spending more time in person with each other.

00:42:24.880 I think mom, you know, this generation of parents, and I include myself in this is for various reasons, you know, watching our society in many ways fall apart.

00:42:33.140 We've become so helicoptering.

00:42:34.960 We're afraid to let them out of our sight.

00:42:36.500 And the problem is, is that a certain amount of teenage experimentation helps you grow up.

00:42:43.060 And, and, and I, even, even if it's not physical, even just, you know, talking through your feelings, even just a kiss, these are normal parts of adolescence that a mom, that moms are stopping from occurring today.

00:42:54.400 So these girls don't know themselves at all, and they don't know themselves sexually at all. 1.00

00:42:58.920 And it's like, I mean, I will say in my own case, I remember growing up, my, my mom and my dad taught me values, and we went to church on Sundays, we're Catholic, and you, you get a certain set of ethics imprinted on you at a young age.

00:43:10.980 And then when I got to be a teenager, I mean, my parents are totally hands off.

00:43:14.820 It was, you know, the 80s, so they were basically like, take care, see you when you're leaving the house for college.

00:43:20.020 But I, I, and I rebelled a little, I did some naughty things, but they were never too awful because of the imprint.

00:43:26.820 But my, my parents certainly weren't running around after me, like, you can't be in the basement with that boy, or all doors have to be open at all times, or no walks on the beach with, you know, they kind of let me do my thing.

00:43:37.620 And it was fine because of the imprint.

00:43:39.920 So I think, I mean, is that where we go?

00:43:42.100 Like, make the imprint good, and then trust a little. 0.98

00:43:45.240 And if they fall, or they make a misstep, or they do something stupid, you're there to help. 0.94

00:43:49.620 But the goal is not to prevent those moments. 0.99

00:43:52.740 That's exactly right.

00:43:53.780 What parents are doing today is the opposite of what your parents did.

00:43:57.080 So instead of they not giving the values, they're not supplying the values, what the moms are basically thinking is, it's okay, I'll just always be there.

00:44:05.440 And so they do, they micromanage every situation their children are in, and the kids actually don't have much of a guide for how they should behave.

00:44:12.880 And then they look online to how they should behave, and the mentors there are really not the people you want influencing your children.

00:44:20.340 Oh, God, no.

00:44:21.280 I mean, it truly is, it falls in line with what we've been talking about on this show for two weeks now, which is safe spaces are not safe.

00:44:28.520 They have exactly the opposite effect of the one that's intended, because the dangers will come for them.

00:44:34.880 They will.

00:44:35.940 And the goal as the parent is not to prevent any of this harm from ever happening.

00:44:40.080 It's to give your child the tools to deal with it, especially while they're under your roof, and you can discuss it, and you can be there to help them pick up the pieces.

00:44:49.120 But why would you want the first major catastrophe or problem to come to your kid when they're no longer living with you, and you can't help them?

00:44:56.680 That's right.

00:44:57.520 And parents are so alarmist about things that are genuinely concerning, like, you know, date rape and whatnot, sexual assault.

00:45:04.340 But they are so alarmist about them that even normal experimentation, they've completely prevented from ever occurring.

00:45:11.500 So these kids are so immature, and they don't know how to govern themselves, and they don't know who they are.

00:45:17.580 Mm-hmm. 0.85

00:45:18.420 And yet they go into school, and they get these explicit lessons in explicit sex acts, and I'm sure it's very jarring for some of them.

00:45:27.620 And then they're told there's something wrong with them if they're not totally accepting of all of it and, you know, aren't snapping whenever anybody gets up to talk about how they were a girl yesterday but are a boy today.

00:45:38.660 It's so confusing for these kids.

00:45:40.900 I know you talk in the book about how the messages that they're getting from Instagram, Reddit, that website you talked about with the art, that the messages coming back to them from those are basically they celebrate.

00:45:57.460 They celebrate testosterone.

00:45:58.880 It's amazing. 0.97

00:46:00.160 Your parents, they're awful if they don't completely support your new trans identity. 0.99

00:46:05.480 And also, if you don't go with this, if you're not supported in your new transgender identity, you're going to kill yourself. 0.99

00:46:14.840 And this is where we really get to it because that warning to kids and to parents is the five-alarm fire. 0.99

00:46:22.360 That's right.

00:46:22.880 And, you know, look, all concerns about suicide have to be taken seriously, but today we're so hysterical about it that it's always in a kid's head.

00:46:31.540 Suicide, I know about this.

00:46:33.020 If I'm trans, I'm at risk for suicide.

00:46:35.340 So, first of all, we're suggesting it to the kid.

00:46:38.140 The actual truth about suicide is not what's being presented.

00:46:42.880 So we have no proof that gender dysphoria causes suicidality, and we have no proof that transition is a cure, okay?

00:46:51.080 All we know is that these same kids who come out tend to have high rates of suicidal ideation and depression.

00:46:58.760 But we don't know that transition is either – gender dysphoria is either the cause or transition is the cure.

00:47:04.700 Hmm.

00:47:05.340 Because that's the thing that makes most of us pay attention, right?

00:47:08.280 I mean, like that is the last, absolute last thing any parent wants to hear is that their kid is at risk for suicide.

00:47:14.300 And, I mean, this is what I think leads most of us to say the first reaction ought to be acceptance and love, acceptance and love.

00:47:20.760 And, you know, they say the suicide rates for transgender – and can you just define non-binary?

00:47:28.080 Because that's the – it's a transgender and non-binary kids, they say, comprise 54% of the teenagers who attempted suicide last year.

00:47:37.200 They're 54% of the kids who attempted suicide are trans or non-binary.

00:47:41.480 So can you just define that term?

00:47:43.180 Sure.

00:47:43.680 Non-binary people who say they're neither male nor female.

00:47:46.860 They're somewhere in between.

00:47:48.000 And girls who come up with this, they come up with this identity online.

00:47:50.800 Remember, these girls who don't know their own bodies. 1.00

00:47:52.660 They haven't done any experimentation, you know, physical, sexual.

00:47:56.540 And they choose one of these exotic online identities.

00:47:59.900 They get a lot of congratulations.

00:48:01.240 And, you know, on the basis of that, they can go right to a surgeon at age 16 and say, this is me.

00:48:07.400 I'm ready to have my breasts removed. 0.98

00:48:08.760 Without even a therapist's note, they can get that. 0.98

00:48:11.280 So how do you – I mean, that's just – that's insanity.

00:48:14.000 That's just insanity.

00:48:15.020 The total removal from the parents in major life and physical decisions is just wrong under any circumstances.

00:48:21.400 But the suicide rate, I mean, I think to the parents out there saying, I don't give a damn.

00:48:30.380 You know, and I know there was a response to your article in the Wall Street Journal that kicked this off by somebody who was a trans parent themselves who talked about their trans child coming out to them.

00:48:39.680 And I think it was a boy to girl transition.

00:48:42.480 And there was a sweet line at the end that said something like that.

00:48:45.280 I cried at the thought of – even I, as a trans person, cried at the thought of my child going through this because it's not easy.

00:48:51.660 But I cried at the thought of saying goodbye to my son as they drove off.

00:48:57.000 And what I realized was I was actually saying hello to my daughter.

00:49:01.440 And I thought, oh, my God, that's a beautiful way of putting it.

00:49:05.360 And I think most parents just love their kids so much, even though most would not want this for them.

00:49:11.200 They'll do what it takes to keep their kid well.

00:49:16.100 So to those parents who are worried about the suicide rate and those 54% numbers, what do you say?

00:49:22.040 Well, first of all, it's highly coercive.

00:49:24.580 This is the only area of medicine where risk of suicide means you have to agree with the patient's self-diagnosis and do everything she says she needs.

00:49:33.420 That's usually been the role of a doctor to assess.

00:49:37.120 But doctors aren't giving independent assessment.

00:49:39.860 So parents are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

00:49:42.640 They are being manipulated.

00:49:44.180 And very often the risk is not accurate.

00:49:47.400 There's no reason to believe that agreeing with the patient and affirming them or letting them go through transition will alleviate suicidality.

00:49:55.880 And did you find any evidence that transitioning either, you know, we can put physically to the side, I guess, but just going by a male pronoun, being called a male name and starting the process of looking more like a boy, what are sort of the stats on the joy that causes or the anxiety, stress and depression that causes?

00:50:18.400 So there are no good studies that show that that alleviates suicidality or creates happiness.

00:50:26.280 The one study that I'm aware of that suggests that it did cause happiness, they never looked at before transition.

00:50:33.400 So this is the famous Christina Olsen study, never looked at the mental health of the kids before they were affirmed.

00:50:39.580 So there are no good studies to show.

00:50:41.520 All we do know is that if you affirm a kid when they say they come, when they come out with this, they are very highly likely to go through medical transition later.

00:50:50.500 Wow. I think about it a little bit the way they talk about alcoholism.

00:50:56.260 And there's a there's a saying in AA, wherever you go, that's where you are.

00:51:01.920 And what they mean is you can't outrun this problem.

00:51:05.060 You know, you can move from New York City to Chicago.

00:51:07.000 You're still going to be an alcoholic in Chicago.

00:51:08.740 They're going to have bars. 0.57

00:51:09.520 They're going to have restaurants.

00:51:10.460 You're going to have parties where it's served.

00:51:12.120 You can't outrun your problems in that way.

00:51:14.220 And since we know teenagers in general and certainly teenage girls are fraught with worry, concerns, self-doubt, insecurity.

00:51:24.020 I mean, I think it applies to all of them, all of them, all every quote normal girl has those feelings.

00:51:29.020 How do you make sure they understand that's normal, that's natural and transitioning to a different gender isn't going to solve it? 0.88

00:51:39.380 You know, unless the problem is being trans, you know, you're going to have all the same problems when you transition and probably a few more. 0.92

00:51:50.400 That's right.

00:51:51.020 So I think kids need to be taught this, but but it can't always come from mom.

00:51:55.900 See, when girls reach a certain age, they actually don't want to hear from mom and they don't care what she has to say or how right she is.

00:52:02.280 That's a very normal part of adolescence.

00:52:04.480 I hate that.

00:52:04.760 We're not there yet.

00:52:05.440 I'm still deluding myself.

00:52:06.500 It's not coming.

00:52:06.860 But it's it's true. 0.62

00:52:09.700 And so the mom can't be everything to them.

00:52:12.220 They need girlfriends and they need to spend time with them. 1.00

00:52:14.640 And one thing they need to be offline.

00:52:16.320 But we have to stop indoctrinating them in the schools and gender ideology. 0.82

00:52:20.780 We have to stop pushing them to to to choose one of the exotic genders. 1.00

00:52:26.620 Right.

00:52:27.220 They're held out like options that you can select from a salad bar.

00:52:30.880 And and I love what I love about the book, too, is you have hardcore solutions.

00:52:34.080 If this is happening and you think that it's not real, here are things you can do, which we were going to get to.

00:52:39.200 But can we spend a minute on the comparison to anorexia to sort of these other perceived social contagions?

00:52:46.900 The book and you have taken a lot of flack for that comparison, saying it's it's a totally different thing.

00:52:53.900 You can't compare being trans to being anorexic.

00:52:56.080 One you're born with, one you're not. 0.61

00:52:58.000 And I I I personally found it a compelling thought to say, in what school would they bring an anorexic out on a stage and say and everyone can see this is a thin person and the anorexic would say, I'm fat and I know I'm fat. 0.90

00:53:14.960 And people would, in response, snap the way they do and support the kids these days and say, yes, you're fat.

00:53:21.180 We get it. 0.98

00:53:21.840 We accept that you're fat.

00:53:23.020 And then the anorexic would say, and I'm going to stop eating even more.

00:53:26.800 And I may even have gastric bypass surgery.

00:53:29.100 And the teachers and the administrators and the students would keep snapping and make a hero out of her. 0.51

00:53:35.680 Everyone would know that would lead to devastation.

00:53:38.240 You know, I understand why you can analogize this to to kids who are thinking they might be trans and thinking they might have top surgery or or something more severe.

00:53:49.580 But the response is, it's not an apt analogy.

00:53:53.740 One is not completely devastating.

00:53:55.640 One is aligning yourself with who you really are.

00:53:57.820 And one truly is a psychological disorder.

00:54:00.460 Your thoughts.

00:54:01.120 Oh, gosh, it's it's devastating.

00:54:02.700 I mean, talk to the detransitioners if you don't think it's devastating. 1.00

00:54:05.900 There's a young woman in named Kira Bell right now in England who is suing the Tavistock Gender Clinic of England, the main gender clinic of England, because she was encouraged in this.

00:54:16.600 She was pushed in this when she was very in adolescence, going through a hard time.

00:54:20.320 Her parents divorced and whatnot.

00:54:22.040 And she now has no breasts. 1.00

00:54:25.120 She has a permanent five o'clock shadow.

00:54:26.900 She said all these changes. 0.90

00:54:27.900 And she decided as a young woman, she's really just a lesbian.

00:54:31.320 She was never a boy.

00:54:32.640 So so it is devastating.

00:54:34.340 But but to get back to your point about anorexia, the thing the thing we know about anorexia is that it spreads among girls. 0.92

00:54:41.400 Girls will make each other's anorexia more severe if you put them together and get them to talk about their anorexia. 1.00

00:54:47.800 So psychologists who deal with them always keep them separate and they have to manage it very carefully so they don't encourage each other.

00:54:54.620 The same patterns exist with trans identification.

00:54:57.440 Oh, I'm so dysphoric.

00:54:58.540 I'm feeling so dysphoric today.

00:54:59.780 Are you dysphoric? 0.99

00:55:00.580 Oh, my God, I hate my breasts. 1.00

00:55:02.220 Do you hate your breasts? 1.00

00:55:03.020 I hate my body. 1.00

00:55:04.500 It's very, very similar.

00:55:06.800 Yeah.

00:55:07.180 I mean, that's 100 percent true with anorexia.

00:55:09.200 A good friend of mine had her daughter dealing with this for a long time.

00:55:12.140 And there is a real hesitation to put them inpatient because what are you doing?

00:55:15.200 You're surrounding them with a lot of other anorexics.

00:55:17.800 And they they do medically.

00:55:19.280 They will tell you that they feed off of one another and they and it becomes almost a competition.

00:55:22.820 And you get props for for doing more than than the other girl.

00:55:27.300 So if that's the case here, it's definitely not helpful to surround them with with peer pressure to go this route.

00:55:34.440 Somebody who's on the fence.

00:55:36.080 And you point out in the book, it's not just the schools, but the magazines, right?

00:55:41.260 Like Cosmo, Teen Vogue, they're all they're talking about it's called chest binding, I guess, when you're trying to hide your breasts as if it's, you know, it's like commonplace.

00:55:52.980 Sure.

00:55:53.340 Here's a here's a great way of doing it.

00:55:54.900 Yeah, sort of the pithy lie about this is that it's so easy to become a boy, just a shot or a surgery away and you can become a boy.

00:56:03.760 And look, the lies are told for for in some sense for for naive reasons.

00:56:09.240 You know, when you start a course of testosterone, you feel great because it reduces anxiety, which is these girls biggest problems, and it delivers euphoria. 0.99

00:56:17.760 So you can't wait to tell everyone how great and liberated you feel.

00:56:22.220 But then again, you're a teenager, so you're not thinking about the fertility you'll never have.

00:56:27.360 You're not thinking about the permanent five o'clock shadow.

00:56:30.540 You're not thinking about your very high rate of risk of heart attack.

00:56:34.600 But what's the balance point between, you know, the the celebration that we're seeing and almost not even celebration, the encouragement that we're seeing in these magazines and elsewhere and where we used to be,

00:56:48.320 which is to shame anybody who feels this way, to ostracize them.

00:56:54.620 I mean, they would say that one of the reasons that the trans rate with girls used to be 0.01 percent is because everybody knew knew enough to hide it.

00:57:02.700 They they knew they'd get killed socially if they came out this way.

00:57:06.200 And it was absolutely not socially acceptable.

00:57:08.280 So how do we figure that out where we haven't crossed over to celebration to encourage people to go this route when it won't make their life easier?

00:57:16.920 But we don't go back into shaming, judging and creating real stress where it doesn't need to be.

00:57:23.240 Right. So a tolerant and kind society is, of course, what we would want.

00:57:27.220 I am not opposed to medical transition for adults at all.

00:57:31.180 And, you know, it is not something I think is a problem.

00:57:34.560 It is not, you know, something I would ever oppose.

00:57:37.220 But there's a real difference between, you know, pushing this on on confused teenage girls who have, you know, are so unlikely to have gender dysphoria,

00:57:48.140 to constantly tell them about their gender options and being kind to someone who is transgender.

00:57:53.680 You don't need to teach an entire student population about their gender options or encourage a gender journey in order to insist that they be kind to every other student, no matter who they are.

00:58:05.340 And do you so is it is it your contention?

00:58:07.880 Is it Dr. Lipman's contention that if you have a daughter who is going to be trans, you will have seen signs of it prior to the announcement you get at age 16?

00:58:19.720 Absolutely. These girls don't come out of nowhere. 1.00

00:58:22.080 Where I interview transgender adults, and we have a hundred-year diagnostic history, and we know what it is.

00:58:27.160 It starts in early childhood, ages two to four, and it's a severe distress in their biological sex.

00:58:34.060 This is not something young children hide.

00:58:36.520 So when it occurs out of nowhere in their teenage years, when they are hanging out in a group of peers who are coming out together,

00:58:44.520 and when they are immersing in social media, that's not what being transgender looks like.

00:58:51.320 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

00:58:53.040 And I mean, what you're advocating is, let's see.

00:58:56.400 Let's investigate.

00:58:58.460 That you make very clear in the book you have trans friends.

00:59:00.820 You spoke with a lot of trans folks, adults and adolescents about this.

00:59:04.460 Very open-minded to it and not judgmental of it.

00:59:07.080 It's not, it's hideous and it must stop.

00:59:09.560 It's not necessarily real.

00:59:12.320 It might be, but it might not be in this contingent of girls whose numbers have gone through the roof.

00:59:18.880 That's right.

00:59:19.680 I mean, it's really important that just because a diagnosis is real, and of course this is, gender dysphoria is a real thing,

00:59:25.840 that doesn't mean everyone has it or everyone who thinks they might have it necessarily does, right?

00:59:31.000 We don't treat all patients the same.

00:59:33.280 Now, you know, about transgender adults, let me just say, because the activists are really energized, they don't represent them.

00:59:40.240 I have gotten so many lovely notes, both while I was writing the book, but also after I wrote the book, from transgender adults who say,

00:59:48.120 listen, I went through years of therapy in order to have a successful transition.

00:59:52.340 I have no idea what these teenage girls are doing, but it's way too fast and it's not going to set them up for a good life. 1.00

00:59:58.560 More with Abigail in a minute, but first, let's talk about Super Beets Soft Chews.

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01:01:02.680 All right.

01:01:03.000 So today I want to bring to you one of our features, which is called the Devil May Care All-Stars.

01:01:08.460 We'll get back to Abigail in one second.

01:01:09.820 But first, you got to hear this story.

01:01:11.380 So these are people who they're not snowflakes, basically.

01:01:15.280 And the woman we're featuring today is named Brianna Hill.

01:01:18.080 This woman is a recent law school graduate out of Chicago, and she was doing what all law school students must do at the end, which is take the bar exam. 0.98

01:01:26.260 Well, now during COVID, back in my day, you had to go into like a big auditorium and take it while a proctor was watching you.

01:01:32.360 But now during COVID, they take the bar exam at home or wherever they want.

01:01:37.500 But there's an artificial intelligence proctor that can watch you on camera.

01:01:42.920 And if you move outside the vision of the AI proctor, you're disqualified.

01:01:47.380 This is so nuts, 2020 America.

01:01:50.220 So that's pressure already.

01:01:51.380 Like, what if you have to use the bathroom?

01:01:52.620 Even when you took the bar exam, you could pop out.

01:01:54.700 Actually, I don't remember if you could.

01:01:55.920 But anyway, Brianna definitely could not leave.

01:01:57.600 The problem was she was pregnant and she was about to give birth. 0.51

01:02:02.420 And while taking the bar exam, which was a two-day test, she thought her water was breaking.

01:02:08.580 And she knew if she left that chair, she was going to be disqualified and would have to wait until February to take the makeup exam. 0.99

01:02:16.100 But she'd just spent four months studying for the bar.

01:02:18.280 So Brianna decided to continue writing her legal arguments and only went to the hospital after she had completed the two sections of the exam administered on that first day of the two-day exam.

01:02:30.940 And then the next day, after 24 hours had passed, oh, and also the birth of her son had occurred, she went back and finished the final sections.

01:02:40.340 Actually, she did it at a table attached to her hospital bed.

01:02:45.240 Whoa.

01:02:45.680 I love the attitude, the strength, the devil-may-care attitude.

01:02:51.080 And Brianna Hill, I think you're going to make a great lawyer and an even better mom with the ability to have that sort of grace under pressure and to juggle multiple big things at once.

01:03:02.260 Good for you.

01:03:03.160 All right.

01:03:03.420 And now back to Abigail Schreier.

01:03:06.180 Can we talk about what to do?

01:03:08.860 Because the book does have proposed solutions.

01:03:11.680 And I think a lot of parents out there are going to be interested in, OK, I mean, I know somebody who's going through this with their daughter, and they're scared.

01:03:21.260 They don't think it's real.

01:03:22.720 They see their daughter socially awkward, maybe a little physically overweight, and looking for someplace to belong.

01:03:30.680 And she seems to have landed here.

01:03:33.620 And they don't want to lose their relationship with her.

01:03:37.160 They don't want to be the parents who don't accept her.

01:03:39.120 But they're looking for a way to figure it out and maybe try to help her a little.

01:03:44.980 So what are they?

01:03:46.760 What are the solutions for somebody in that position?

01:03:49.300 Well, one thing parents need to remember is that they're parents for a reason.

01:03:53.160 It's OK to push back.

01:03:54.600 You don't need to sacrifice your relationship.

01:03:57.120 But you also don't have to agree with everything your daughters come up with.

01:04:01.200 And sometimes when these girls start out, they start out by saying, I'm a lesbian at age 11. 1.00

01:04:06.560 And the parents right away agree with them and encourage it.

01:04:09.780 And then they say, actually, mom, I'm pansexual.

01:04:12.300 And then eventually they get to trans.

01:04:14.420 And what the daughter was really looking for was independence.

01:04:18.820 And sometimes she had no idea what she was.

01:04:21.600 And the parents don't have to agree with everything she comes up with.

01:04:24.980 They could just sort of let it be.

01:04:28.220 And so that's one thing.

01:04:30.400 Another thing is parents have to tell their daughters how wonderful it is to be a girl and a woman.

01:04:35.520 We have beaten it into their heads that being a girl means being a victim,

01:04:39.660 that being a woman means less pay and constant oppression and threat of assault. 1.00

01:04:44.680 These are really scary options.

01:04:47.560 And then they go online and they see porn, which is so violent.

01:04:50.960 And they're terrified of sex.

01:04:52.840 I want to get through that because, to me, I know the book is all about trans issues and trans girls, teenagers.

01:05:01.180 But your thoughts on feminism under two of the action points, one of them is stop pathologizing girlhood. 1.00

01:05:06.500 And the other one is don't be afraid to admit it's wonderful to be a girl.

01:05:10.480 Your thoughts on feminism were, I found, the most compelling part of the book.

01:05:14.360 As somebody who has stood up for women my whole life and come against a fair amount of sexism my way.

01:05:20.620 It's fine.

01:05:21.080 I'm not somebody who complains about it all the time, but certainly I've encountered it.

01:05:24.900 I loved the way you described girlhood, womanhood, and our choices.

01:05:31.220 But let me save that and let's just get through the action points.

01:05:34.400 One of the number one things you say is no smartphones.

01:05:37.960 Oh, well, smartphones, we know that they are linked to very high rates of anxiety and depression in young girls.

01:05:46.380 Look, this whole thing is not really about gender at all in a certain sense.

01:05:50.300 It's really about the mental health crisis teen girls are in, and it's profound.

01:05:54.780 And really, many psychological researchers have been able to tie this to the girls' use of their smartphones and social media.

01:06:03.360 So if you haven't introduced it, certainly don't.

01:06:05.900 So what do you do?

01:06:07.500 I mean, you could do flip phones.

01:06:09.120 They don't have the internet on them.

01:06:11.460 You can text.

01:06:13.000 But is that what you would do?

01:06:16.820 Actually, yes, to be honest.

01:06:18.760 My kids are younger like yours, but I have no plans to introduce smartphones to them.

01:06:23.440 They can get an old cell phone that does basic cell phone things.

01:06:27.360 I definitely, I can't say that I will always be able to keep them off social media, but I'll certainly do my best.

01:06:32.480 Mm-hmm.

01:06:33.720 I know.

01:06:34.580 You pointed out in the book, if somebody said to you 15 years ago, I'm going to invent this device, and it's going to completely ruin your future children's happiness and create massive dangers for them and possibly ruin their sex lives and their gendered identity could be changed.

01:06:50.000 And, like, they could be bullied inside their own bedroom at night.

01:06:54.140 Who the hell would buy that?

01:06:56.980 You know?

01:06:57.500 It's like, who would buy that?

01:06:59.520 But we all do.

01:07:00.780 And amazingly, there's a little bit, but there's not a huge movement to stop it.

01:07:07.120 And you need a huge movement because if every kid at the school has one and your kid doesn't, it doesn't work.

01:07:13.420 That's right.

01:07:13.980 You have to go to the schools and you have to try to convince them to stop it.

01:07:17.440 And parents who have done this, who have signed pacts to keep their kids off social media and keep them off smartphones, have been successful.

01:07:24.520 Well, in one of our schools, it's wait until 8th, and that's what they're trying to get us to do, at least stave it off until the kids have gotten to 8th grade.

01:07:34.640 I'd love for it to be 12th, but we'll fight that battle when we get there.

01:07:39.380 So what about, you say, do not support gender ideology in your child's education?

01:07:43.600 Is that sort of what I was talking about, where it was brought to our children's classroom in grade 3, and it was in-depth, and it was confusing for the kids?

01:07:52.000 That's right.

01:07:54.360 Gender ideology, the main idea is that whether you were told you were male, female, at birth, that was just a guess someone made by looking at your body.

01:08:02.560 This is the idea.

01:08:03.660 And only you can know your true gender. 1.00

01:08:05.860 So your job now is to discover it.

01:08:08.200 This is being taught in so many schools.

01:08:10.440 It is so confusing to children, and it's all over the curriculum.

01:08:14.400 Math teachers, I talked to one parent last week.

01:08:16.820 The English teacher was pushing this with her students. 0.99

01:08:19.840 So what do you do?

01:08:21.660 They do give you a notification, usually, if they're going to go down this route and start talking about it.

01:08:28.240 Most schools, even our progressive New York City ones, understand this is sensitive.

01:08:32.040 Parents will want a heads up.

01:08:34.020 So should you pull your kid?

01:08:37.980 It's a good question.

01:08:39.100 I would start by introducing the idea.

01:08:41.340 I mean, telling the kids that this is nonsense.

01:08:43.560 This is pure gibberish. 0.65

01:08:44.980 It's totally unscientific.

01:08:46.340 The gender-bred person you mentioned is taught in schools alongside real things like STDs. 0.87

01:08:52.960 And it's complete fiction.

01:08:55.440 So acquainting them with that idea is probably a good start.

01:09:00.080 But there's something else, too.

01:09:01.060 Some of the parents are so sort of idolizing of experts.

01:09:07.180 We really need to get over our reliance on these so-called experts and the idea that we have to take everything a psychologist says as if it's the Bible.

01:09:17.960 You know, I can feel the ire of folks who have transitioned or who are trans saying, why would you pull your kid from an attempt to stop bullying against trans people, which is what they would see this as?

01:09:33.460 An attempt to educate them on what's happening to now maybe as many as 2% of their colleagues and their classmates with whom they're going to spend the next, you know, 12 years of school.

01:09:43.760 Why would you pull your kid from that?

01:09:46.880 Well, that's nonsense.

01:09:48.080 I mean, think about it this way.

01:09:49.260 Say the kid came out as, you know, a born-again Christian in school.

01:09:54.080 Would you then teach all the kids, you know, start teaching everyone the New Testament and have them recite the prayers and have them imagine what it's like to be saved?

01:10:05.380 I mean, is that what you would do?

01:10:06.880 Of course not, right?

01:10:08.180 So it's pretextual that this is necessary for compassion or decency.

01:10:13.180 But there's a history of bullying trans kids.

01:10:16.060 All children. 0.51

01:10:17.140 What about, because there's a history of bullying trans kids and the suicide rate and so on.

01:10:21.280 There's a history of bullying all kinds of kids.

01:10:25.240 You don't think that religious kids ever get picked on in some of our progressive cities?

01:10:31.140 I mean, of course there is.

01:10:33.060 That doesn't mean you indoctrinate a population in a belief system, especially one that's frankly phony.

01:10:40.620 Because if you treat, if you teach non-bullying, love, acceptance, support, non-judgment, it should cover that behavior.

01:10:48.880 That's what we teach our kids.

01:10:50.160 We don't care what somebody is, their sexual orientation, their gender identity.

01:10:55.240 We care about love, support, kindness, friendship, being an ally.

01:11:00.400 If your kids know to do that, then it should cover bullying toward anybody for any reason.

01:11:05.820 Of course it should.

01:11:08.900 I mean, there are teachers who are giving exercises of imagine, now put yourself in the position of a person who is non-binary.

01:11:17.540 Imagine you're non-binary. 0.99

01:11:18.920 How would your life be different?

01:11:20.300 We don't ask this of kids in any other context where bullying might occur.

01:11:25.000 Because, you know, this kind of exercise is very confusing to kids who are just sorting out their identities, you know, to begin with.

01:11:33.180 Well, and what about, to me, there's an anti-feminism or anti-woman strain in some of it where they're telling little boys that they might be girls if they like the color pink.

01:11:46.660 And they're telling little girls that they might be boys if they only like sports and not dolls.

01:11:52.020 And to me, and they are saying this in some of the literature, some of the videos that were shown in this school I'm talking about were right down that line.

01:11:58.460 And I object as a former tomboy myself.

01:12:01.740 I know you were as well.

01:12:03.300 I object because I feel like the 70s version of me would have been being told she's a boy.

01:12:08.900 And I'm all girl.

01:12:10.380 I'm all woman.

01:12:11.360 But girls can be more masculine in some ways. 1.00

01:12:14.300 They can not like pink.

01:12:16.020 They can not like dresses.

01:12:16.880 They can not like dolls.

01:12:17.840 All three of which were true in my case.

01:12:20.260 But be all woman. 0.99

01:12:22.160 And when they get to puberty and mature into these sexy, you know, more rounded in the middle, childbearing, awesome, strong, but emotional beings.

01:12:33.260 And somehow women are being, almost girls are being sort of counseled out of that.

01:12:37.100 That you might have to rethink your entire gender if you don't conform with these traditional roles.

01:12:42.920 That's exactly right.

01:12:43.960 Girls are taught that if they are good at math, if they like physics, that they are something called, if they admire Sally Ride, she was gender nonconforming. 1.00

01:12:54.820 That's what they are, gender nonconforming, which means the more remarkable you are, the less you count as a woman. 0.98

01:13:00.480 You talk in the book about how it's, in some ways, it's been a knock on lesbians because lesbians, according to the adolescents you interviewed, are not the cool thing to be anymore.

01:13:09.480 It's much more cool to be trans.

01:13:10.900 And they diminish lesbians as just sort of confused trans people, people who are not like ready.

01:13:18.360 They're masculine girls who can't admit that they're actually boys. 0.94

01:13:21.420 Yeah, I interviewed a lot of lesbians for the book. 1.00

01:13:24.520 And one young woman who eventually, you know, had identified as trans, Riley, in the book, she, at 16, she decided she was trans.

01:13:34.720 Or actually, at 14, she decided she was trans.

01:13:37.380 But later, she realized she was just a lesbian.

01:13:40.500 And just because she had certain masculine tendencies or feelings didn't mean that she was not really a girl.

01:13:47.800 And a lot of lesbians I talked to believe this is basically a euthanizing of young lesbians, because all these young women who would grow up to be healthy lesbian women are instead being convinced that they're really men.

01:14:00.060 Or, and even non-lesbians, just being taught on your point of stop pathologizing girlhood, it's almost as if girls' and women's tendency to be emotional, which is awesome.

01:14:12.820 I embrace it.

01:14:13.620 I love it.

01:14:14.080 It's one of the things that makes us beautiful.

01:14:15.840 And certainly to be, as you put it in the book, full of whirlwind fury and self-doubt as teenagers, suddenly we're being told that's not normal.

01:14:25.300 And parents are trying to therapize it and subdue it and make girls feel odd or wrong because of it. 0.97

01:14:33.100 Not all parents, but some.

01:14:34.600 Instead of just loving it and embracing it and get them prepared to understand girls are different and they're different in an awesome way.

01:14:41.860 That's right.

01:14:42.500 In some sense, we've never lived in such a misogynistic time.

01:14:46.380 You know, the idea that all things that girls naturally love are somehow denigrated, you know, taking care of children or literature or, you know, psychology.

01:14:57.840 So all that is denigrated.

01:14:59.220 They have to be pushed to coding.

01:15:01.980 They have to be in steam.

01:15:03.540 They're told that all their natural inclinations are somehow lesser.

01:15:07.700 And it's really sending a very bad message that there's a very limited number of things that are respected in this culture and they're all male.

01:15:16.500 You have to be CEO.

01:15:17.940 That's what gets respected.

01:15:19.020 And you talk about how girls, women are naturally empathetic, which we are, and it's something we should embrace and celebrate.

01:15:27.500 And I love there's one line in the book that it jumped out at me when I read it.

01:15:31.000 I've read it twice.

01:15:31.640 And you talked about your daughter and how if she found me asleep on the couch, she would kiss my forehead.

01:15:39.360 She seemed to know that buried inside this grown woman was another little girl.

01:15:44.940 I love that.

01:15:46.360 It's just this, it's like this unspoken bond between moms and their girls.

01:15:51.720 And in a way, it reminded me that you've got to live it to communicate it to your daughter.

01:15:57.120 You've got to live embracing that we are different.

01:16:00.680 Women and men are not the same. 1.00

01:16:02.000 And there's nothing wrong with the things that make us individually female.

01:16:07.860 That's right.

01:16:08.700 I mean, there is nothing wrong with being a girl.

01:16:11.660 And we need to stop telling our daughters that just because they have certain preferences, that makes them lesser. 0.94

01:16:17.980 You know, girls tend to be more emotional, especially in adolescence. 0.87

01:16:23.280 That doesn't mean there's something wrong with them.

01:16:25.360 And it doesn't necessarily mean we need to immediately short circuit it with medication.

01:16:30.440 And you talked about how, because we have gotten to this place in society where we as girls, as women are told, if you don't become a CEO, if you don't go, you know, in the steam, right, technology, if you don't become a scientist, you've settled.

01:16:46.240 You've become the victim of a sexist system.

01:16:49.020 And you've become a, you are a victim in general, because you could have done all these things that you rejected because you live in this sexist society.

01:16:55.980 And I love the way you look at this.

01:16:58.840 This really, this, I'd never had it phrased the way you phrase it in the book, but I felt like, oh my God, this woman's in my head.

01:17:05.480 Like this is, I needed to hear this myself because you talk about how, look, we, why can't we look at CEOs who lead fairly, you say, fairly difficult lives.

01:17:19.520 They make a lot of money.

01:17:20.420 Um, they have very little time.

01:17:22.640 They don't have time to nurture relationships. 0.99

01:17:24.440 They have a high rate of divorce and look at the women who choose something else, a different life as maybe being better adjusted, maybe a little wiser for preferring relationships to dollars. 0.73

01:17:36.160 And honestly, Abigail, I've never heard somebody phrase it quite that way, but that really spoke to me.

01:17:42.480 I mean, that, I think you got it.

01:17:44.400 I think we've gone so far around the bend with Gloria Steinem's version of feminism. 1.00

01:17:48.200 We have forgot to, we've forgotten to remind women, your choices are great no matter what they are.

01:17:53.640 And if they're not science, if they're literature, good on you.

01:17:57.180 Yeah, there's so much judgmentalism about women's choices. 1.00

01:18:00.400 And a lot of it, unfortunately, is coming from women. 1.00

01:18:02.760 They are told that if they want to stay home and, you know, with their families or stay home and raise children, even for a few years, they are failing to lean in.

01:18:10.240 They are not good enough.

01:18:11.820 They are somehow, you know, raising kids is just, you know, or being there or staying at home or being a teacher.

01:18:18.060 These are all denigrated. 0.99

01:18:19.900 And what they need to be as CEO, what they need to be as a software programmer, you know, um, these are, these are really harmful.

01:18:27.640 And it really, it's a way of putting down all womanhood and certainly all their, a lot of girls' natural inclinations. 0.95

01:18:35.880 I know you, you mentioned in the book, like, okay, we may admire the success of Sumner Redstone or Rupert Murdoch, my old boss.

01:18:44.220 But the truth is they haven't enjoyed the most enviable personal lives as we've read in the papers.

01:18:49.780 And it reminded me of something that happened to me at Fox when I had a conversation with Rupert Murdoch.

01:18:55.640 And I was deciding whether or not to stay at Fox.

01:18:58.260 And he said, you know, how's everything?

01:19:00.520 Are you seeing your family?

01:19:01.600 He knew I had three young kids.

01:19:03.140 And I said, oh, you know, I usually get to kiss him goodbye in the morning before they leave school.

01:19:08.040 I don't really see him other than that.

01:19:09.600 And he's like, oh, great.

01:19:11.680 Good, good, good.

01:19:13.680 For him, that would have been enough.

01:19:16.220 And I remember thinking, oh, my God, like he and I just don't have anything in common in this department.

01:19:21.080 And I shouldn't be telegraphing to him that I need help in this department because he doesn't, he's not picking up what I'm putting down.

01:19:28.140 But I, too, I spoke with somebody who's a very well-known female empowerment speaker and author.

01:19:38.280 And this person, I asked her what she thought about my leaving Fox.

01:19:42.040 And she strongly advised me not to do it, not because it was well-suited for me or I was good at it, but because it was harder edged.

01:19:51.020 And she didn't want me doing anything that wasn't that hard edged and powerful.

01:19:55.700 It was a powerful position.

01:19:56.760 And all I could think was, I don't care.

01:20:00.600 I don't care about that.

01:20:01.460 I want to see my kids.

01:20:02.720 And I don't give a damn who tells me that it's not a feminist moment or I'm not a strong woman. 0.99

01:20:07.580 Screw them. 0.95

01:20:08.440 They don't have to look these kids in the eye when they're 18, 20, and 22 and say, sorry, I missed it. 0.97

01:20:14.120 But here's another home for you to go visit in the summer.

01:20:18.860 Screw that.

01:20:20.080 And I do think we need more women saying to other women, you want to be home with your kids? 1.00

01:20:25.420 Go for it.

01:20:26.200 It's an awesome choice.

01:20:27.760 You want to leave a high-powered job because you want to spend more time with your family and maybe roll back your style of living?

01:20:33.420 Do it.

01:20:33.980 If that's what you want, do it and do it guilt-free.

01:20:38.500 That part of what makes us beautiful as women is that natural nurturing instinct.

01:20:44.840 And I, for one, am sick of people demonizing it or making us feel less than because of it.

01:20:52.380 That's right.

01:20:53.020 You know, people are living longer.

01:20:54.360 We should have so many more options today.

01:20:56.700 It should be so much easier to take time off.

01:20:59.420 But instead, you know, only one set of choices is respected.

01:21:04.820 And the set of choices is work harder.

01:21:07.640 Spend more time at work.

01:21:08.740 And when a woman doesn't want to do that, it's denigrated. 1.00

01:21:12.120 And you're a very confident woman, but most women are probably less confident than that.

01:21:16.980 And they're buying into the idea that only one set of options is respectable.

01:21:21.340 You know, I was at a mom's roundtable at my daughter's school not long ago, and we were talking about our girls and our just issues that you have when you have little girls and so on.

01:21:33.060 It's not like a support group, but it's an after-school chat group.

01:21:35.920 And one of the moms, she always says when she's leaving the house, mommy's going to a meeting because she's now a stay-at-home mom.

01:21:42.740 And she wants to telegraph to her daughter that mom's busy, mom has important things going on, and mom used to be an important executive.

01:21:49.040 And she's like, I don't want her to think I'm just this Upper East Side stay-at-home mom.

01:21:52.720 And she got a lot of nods of support around the circle.

01:21:56.320 And I had just left NBC, which was, you know, that whole experience was so toxic, my leaving and the fallout.

01:22:03.160 And I remember saying to her, what's so bad about being an Upper East Side housewife and mother?

01:22:08.800 Like, why do you feel the need to create a different image?

01:22:13.160 And she's like, well, you know, I want her to be strong.

01:22:15.140 I want her to be a professional.

01:22:16.800 So why do you have to say, apologize for the choices you've made?

01:22:20.580 Like, what is wrong if you want to be a stay-at-home wife, even, not just mother?

01:22:27.140 Then do that.

01:22:28.280 Why are women always apologizing for their choices as though it's weak to want to be married to a guy, take good care of him, take good care of yourself? 0.99

01:22:36.480 You know, whatever you want to do, keep the house the way women used to do in the 50s. 1.00

01:22:41.100 Now that we have real choices and we can do other things, that choice looks very different.

01:22:46.660 It was one thing when that was all we could do.

01:22:48.320 But now that we could do what we want, I wish women would stop apologizing for that. 1.00

01:22:52.300 Being an Upper East Side housewife looks pretty damn good to me. 0.89

01:22:55.040 I'm just saying, looks damn good.

01:22:56.880 And I don't think anybody should feel bad about it if they've made those choices.

01:23:00.460 You know, part of the problem is we've bought into the lie that women of previous eras were less strong.

01:23:05.680 They weren't strong.

01:23:06.500 They were just taking care of the home.

01:23:08.200 They weren't strong.

01:23:08.980 They were just taking care of the children.

01:23:10.840 Well, you think back to your grandmother, and I think back to my grandmothers, and these were incredibly strong, incredibly smart and savvy women. 0.98

01:23:17.300 They weren't pushovers.

01:23:19.000 But we have this lie that somehow this generation of women invented, you know, strength. 1.00

01:23:24.840 And it just isn't true.

01:23:26.220 And it's not their jobs that give them strength.

01:23:28.480 It's who they are.

01:23:29.980 And the more I talk to my friends about our daughters who are in these great schools, very, very high, highly respected schools, the more we get honest and say, well, what's the end goal?

01:23:41.900 Do we want them to go to Harvard and become investment bankers?

01:23:45.960 No.

01:23:46.800 Want them to go to Yale and become top lawyers?

01:23:49.180 No.

01:23:50.540 To be some consultant after a spectacular career at Stanford?

01:23:54.580 No.

01:23:55.520 Like, we all want them to be happy.

01:23:57.560 We want them to, well, within reason.

01:23:59.360 I mean, happiness isn't really a realistic goal because normal humans only feel that sporadically.

01:24:03.020 They don't have 10 out of 10 happiness for all of their life.

01:24:05.520 But you want them to be well, to have adjusted lives that bring them joy, bring them troubles that they can handle, bring them a secure and stable family life.

01:24:15.420 But the last thing I want is for my kids to wind up being bankers who work all the time and have huge bank accounts, but really not that much personal connection.

01:24:27.240 That's just how I feel about it.

01:24:29.840 Right.

01:24:30.420 Americans are a lot less religious today.

01:24:32.220 And one of the side effects is we've lost our moral vocabulary.

01:24:36.020 So when we talk about the good life, we're not talking about doing good, really.

01:24:40.100 We talk about the jobs you've attained or, you know, how high you've gotten on the corporate ladder.

01:24:47.000 Unfortunately, that's what parents are telling their children they need to do.

01:24:50.580 And it's not necessarily, it's certainly not the life for everyone, and it's not necessarily a good or happy life.

01:24:56.320 I mean, I think back to the time when I was making my decision about leaving Fox and the friends I remember are the ones who asked me about my happiness in my family life.

01:25:06.480 You know, how are you with the kids?

01:25:07.780 How are you with Doug?

01:25:08.940 How do you think that would change if you went to a job that got you home by noon?

01:25:12.340 And those are the friends who helped make it okay for me to make the leap, putting aside whether that was the organization for me to go to.

01:25:19.820 Just the change of changing my lifestyle and the way I was living was and remains a good idea.

01:25:25.820 And honestly, now I look around and I'm so much happier than I've ever been.

01:25:29.200 And I don't have that super powerful role anymore, and I don't have that kind of salary anymore, and I couldn't care less.

01:25:38.060 I would encourage any woman feeling the way, or man feeling the way I was feeling, to take the leap.

01:25:43.280 Try a change.

01:25:44.400 You know, what's the worst that could happen?

01:25:46.120 You know, it ends in flames and everybody's calling you awful names in the paper.

01:25:49.200 Well, that happened.

01:25:50.420 And you know what?

01:25:51.320 I'm fine.

01:25:53.140 I'm fine.

01:25:54.800 I'm better than fine.

01:25:56.500 It's just something to remember.

01:25:57.840 Look, can I ask you, can I ask you what's happened to you?

01:26:01.200 Because good God, I mean, I can feel the articles being written now about how you're a transphobe and I'm a transphobe and everyone's a transphobe just for having this conversation.

01:26:10.040 Having been through this battering ram now over and over after your interview on Joe Rogan, after your book came out, what's your perspective on that?

01:26:19.080 You know, it's strange.

01:26:20.980 One thing is the book's sold well, it's selling well.

01:26:23.840 And I'm very, I'm very touched by the, you know, the, the readers who've reached out and the parents who appreciate it and whatnot.

01:26:30.320 The, the strange thing is that there's been a total media blackout of the book from traditional media.

01:26:35.700 A lot of, you know, the mainstream publications refused to review it.

01:26:40.400 In fact, told journalists who approached the, these publications about this book, these were top journalists.

01:26:45.420 They were told, absolutely not.

01:26:47.140 And you could lose your job over this.

01:26:49.180 And, and one thing that, that people don't realize is how completely our institutions have been co-opted by the young, woke members of their staffs.

01:26:57.820 It's a very, it's a very concerning trend in America.

01:27:00.800 Yeah, well, you went on Joe Rogan and that interview continues to, this isn't judgment on you, cause problems for him at Spotify.

01:27:09.960 They've had young employees there say it's transphobic, that he's transphobic, that you're transphobic, that Spotify should pull the episode.

01:27:16.900 And so far to its credit, although Spotify says it's had 10 or 12 meetings on this, they have not pulled the episode, which is good.

01:27:25.180 That's a trend in the right direction.

01:27:26.800 That's, that's what we're about in America, having tough discussions about tough subjects so people can learn.

01:27:32.020 And people who are doubting or questioning can have smart discussions around these issues.

01:27:37.900 But what, what did you think when you saw the backlash that he's experiencing over that episode?

01:27:43.660 Well, naturally I felt very bad.

01:27:45.420 I mean, the last thing I wanted to do was cause a problem for him, but I will say this, he's been very strong.

01:27:50.160 He's been very firm on it.

01:27:51.260 And the woke employees who are asking for editorial control, you know, so far it's been a real victory against cancel culture.

01:27:59.340 If he, if he continues to stand up to them and, and, and fights, they're removing it from, from the platform.

01:28:05.680 Um, that's what they're demanding right now.

01:28:07.660 These are employees.

01:28:08.880 Spotify pays for genders, transition surgeries and, um, hormones for all its transgender employees.

01:28:15.280 They're completely out in the company.

01:28:17.220 They're completely supported.

01:28:18.460 And they decided that wasn't enough.

01:28:20.220 They want editorial control.

01:28:21.940 And, and so far, you know, Joe Rogan stood up to them is, you know, and, and so far Spotify has stood up to them and said, it's a, it's a move too far.

01:28:30.640 It's been amazing to see Spotify with its spine.

01:28:34.260 I, I am with you.

01:28:35.420 I hope they stand firm and just encourage more discussion, more discussion.

01:28:40.120 Glad came out and called you an anti-trans activist.

01:28:43.940 The critics say you, you have invalidated.

01:28:47.080 We've heard this a lot, quote, the lived experience of trans kids.

01:28:51.640 How do you respond to that?

01:28:53.540 Oh, no, I look, I I'm not an activist of any kind.

01:28:56.340 I'm a journalist.

01:28:56.980 This was not a personal issue to me.

01:28:59.040 Um, had it been a personal issue, I don't think I could have written the book.

01:29:01.940 Quite honestly, the parents who go through this are in a lot of pain.

01:29:04.280 It wasn't personal to me.

01:29:05.880 I fully support medical transition for, for mature adults.

01:29:10.040 Um, I just wanted to be able to look into a phenomenon, a sudden spike, um, of trans identification and trans, you know, uh, medical treatments for adolescent girls.

01:29:20.520 And find out what was going on.

01:29:22.440 That was it.

01:29:23.000 And even questioning this is, is somehow verboten today.

01:29:27.020 It's really crazy.

01:29:28.080 You know, the thing to know about the activists is that they're overwhelmingly biological males, and yet they're able to shut down discussion of a mental health crisis facing teenage girls.

01:29:38.060 Well, they, and they also keep shutting down any discussion about whether it's fair to have trans girls, you know, people who are identified male at birth who transition to girl, compete in girl sports.

01:29:49.220 And, you know, we've seen moms, mothers of color, of daughters of color, writing articles in the newspaper saying, my daughter worked her tail off to distinguish herself in track.

01:29:57.760 And she was on path to get a scholarship for track in college.

01:30:01.820 And then two trans girls, people who are identified male at birth, who transitioned into girls, came onto the track team, and they're crushing my daughter. 1.00

01:30:08.960 And my daughter's no longer number one.

01:30:10.460 And this will actually affect her chances of getting into a good school.

01:30:13.100 And the response is uniformly from the activist, Ben, bigot.

01:30:17.780 Look what happened to Martina Navarrola. 1.00

01:30:19.620 A bigot.

01:30:20.560 Then this woman who was like a pioneer for, for gay rights in tennis. 1.00

01:30:24.720 It's, man, did they shut her down for saying, I'm not sure we should be letting trans women play against, they're called, quote, cis women, women who are identified female at birth.

01:30:32.340 And that rings true for them throughout their lives.

01:30:36.020 The use of these awful pejorative terms to stifle any discussion on these tough issues, which I believe society's in good faith grappling with, is chilling and it's upsetting.

01:30:48.360 Yeah, and girls are noticing. 1.00

01:30:49.900 I mean, girls are noticing that no one's standing up for them in the broader culture.

01:30:53.000 They're noticing that boys who didn't train hard, who had no standout achievements on the boys' team, are able to take their trophies and scholarships and no one's protesting.

01:31:02.220 They notice that.

01:31:03.280 And it doesn't make them excited to be a woman. 0.95

01:31:05.640 Because they don't want to get called a TERF, which is basically an anti-trans radical feminist. 0.97

01:31:11.620 And, you know, it doesn't hurt so bad to be called names, I will say, having been called a lot of them.

01:31:16.540 What does hurt is not being able to discuss things openly and say how you feel and then have somebody convince you of the opposite.

01:31:23.040 If it isn't unfair, then let's have that talk openly and honestly.

01:31:27.500 But what's going to make somebody argue the opposite unless somebody's arguing the first position?

01:31:32.560 You know, we've just gotten to this point where it's just shut her down.

01:31:35.620 And I know, like, have you had your book reviewed by The Times or by any of these, you know, Kirkus, any of those?

01:31:44.620 No.

01:31:45.380 Kirkus, which reviews 10,000 titles a year, didn't review my book.

01:31:50.640 Now, my book, you know, when it came out, was number one in several categories on Amazon based on sales.

01:31:57.280 It's selling, but no one will review it.

01:31:59.600 None of the major magazines or newspapers reviewed it.

01:32:02.440 And, you know, as recently as a month ago, I got a call, I got a contacted by a member of the National Association of Science Writers.

01:32:10.620 And I found out that they had expelled a member from their listserv, from their group online forum, for even mentioning my book.

01:32:18.220 These are science writers.

01:32:19.400 This is not a kindergarten.

01:32:20.620 This isn't a preschool.

01:32:21.960 Science writers aren't even allowed to talk about my book.

01:32:25.200 Well, and Dr. Lipman, who is an OBGYN and now public health researcher on whose study you based some of this book, she received a ton of backlash.

01:32:34.600 Brown University subjected it to yet another peer review.

01:32:37.820 Several people reviewed it.

01:32:39.900 And while they had her include more explicit references to the fact that she was relying on testimonials from parents, who, again, trans kids say you can't go to them, not one of her conclusions was changed.

01:32:52.940 They did not change any of her conclusions on it.

01:32:55.520 But, boy, folks did their best to discredit her entirely. 0.97

01:32:59.900 That's right.

01:33:00.620 But she is, you know, her work was truly groundbreaking.

01:33:04.180 Across the Western world, doctors have come out and said she was right.

01:33:08.660 They are noticing the same thing.

01:33:10.380 And they believe that she accurately portrayed this phenomenon.

01:33:13.680 Look, I interviewed Dr. Lipman extensively.

01:33:16.040 She is not an activist.

01:33:17.640 She is a scientist.

01:33:19.100 And not that it should matter, but she's a political progressive.

01:33:22.180 She had no dog in this fight.

01:33:24.220 All she noticed that were all of a sudden there were a lot of girls in her social media feed coming out as trans in friend groups. 1.00

01:33:31.260 And all she asked was why.

01:33:33.680 So closing question to the parents out there who are worried about this, who have a genuine good faith fear that if this is a social contagion, it might come into their family to a daughter who is not trans but is struggling.

01:33:49.760 What do you want them to know?

01:33:51.580 What's the bottom line message you have for them?

01:33:53.860 A couple of things.

01:33:55.000 One, they're the parents for a reason.

01:33:57.980 They're absolutely there to establish guardrails and push back on their daughter's self-diagnosis.

01:34:02.920 These girls are figuring out their own identity. 1.00

01:34:04.700 That's totally normal.

01:34:06.160 You don't have to agree with everything she says.

01:34:08.700 But another thing is they don't have to go along with gender ideology in the schools. 1.00

01:34:13.240 There's no reason you can't show compassion for a transgender child without indoctrinating an entire student population. 0.85

01:34:21.620 And the third thing is tell your daughter it's wonderful to be a girl.

01:34:25.540 It's wonderful to be a woman.

01:34:27.220 And there's not just one way to be a girl.

01:34:29.760 There are a lot of ways.

01:34:31.080 Whatever way she chooses is a perfectly great way.

01:34:34.700 Absolutely.

01:34:35.720 Amen to that.

01:34:36.540 I encourage anybody, even people who don't want to read this book for the trans stuff,

01:34:39.980 to read the stuff about feminism and the messaging to our daughters.

01:34:43.900 I myself learned a lot from it and felt just validated by a lot of your thoughts.

01:34:48.120 You're super smart.

01:34:49.220 Abigail Schreier, thank you so much for being here.

01:34:51.660 Thank you so much for having me on.

01:34:55.500 Our thanks to Abigail Schreier for that interview and for writing the book, which is very thought-provoking.

01:35:01.560 I do recommend it.

01:35:02.540 It'll at least get you thinking about it.

01:35:04.560 And then do your own research.

01:35:06.020 Figure out where you stand.

01:35:07.240 But the whole point of this is nothing should be off-limits from discussion.

01:35:11.820 Right?

01:35:12.060 We all need to learn.

01:35:13.280 And it's important to know how the trans activists feel.

01:35:15.880 It's important to know how Abigail Schreier's research turned out.

01:35:19.420 But do your own research and figure it out for yourself.

01:35:22.460 Because there should be nothing that's off-limits for learning in this country.

01:35:27.480 Thank you so much for listening to the show.

01:35:29.040 If you like it, feel free to subscribe and then also download.

01:35:32.380 You have to do both, I'm told, in order for it to count.

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01:35:38.020 And write a review online if you'd like to.

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01:35:42.060 Super fun and a great way to connect.

01:35:44.320 Appreciate you guys all giving us the time.

01:35:46.180 Until the next time.

01:35:47.240 Take care.

01:35:47.540 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. 0.94

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The Megyn Kelly Show - October 19, 2020

Abigail Shrier on the Teen Trans Trend, Feminism and Technology ｜ Ep. 12

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