The Megyn Kelly Show - Alex Murdaugh Convictions OVERTURNED, with Vinnie Politan and Charlie Condon, and the TRUTH About the ＂Sex Recession,＂ with Dr. Debra Soh ｜ Ep. 1316

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00:00:30 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:42 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. Oh my goodness, we have news for you.

00:00:47 Second hour, we're going to be joined by Dr. Debra So. She's got a fascinating new book,

00:00:52 and we're going to get into some of the Christy Noem, Brian Noem issues.

00:00:57 But we have got to begin with stunning legal news.

00:01:00 This morning, by a unanimous vote, the South Carolina Supreme Court reversed the murder convictions of Alec Murdoch.

00:01:09 Mr. Murdoch is the high-profile South Carolina attorney accused of shooting and killing his wife Maggie, along with his son Paul, in June of 2021.

00:01:20 His six-week trial in 2023 captivated the nation.

00:01:24 We covered it gavel-to-gavel here.

00:01:27 And he was ultimately convicted of both murders.

00:01:30 As a reminder, here is the 911 call Alec Murdoch made when he claimed he discovered the bodies.

00:01:40 And this call was played in court.

00:01:41 Watch.

00:01:42 It's 4147 Moselle Road.

00:01:45 I've been up to it now.

00:01:47 It's bad.

00:01:47 Okay.

00:01:50 Okay.

00:01:50 And are they breathing?

00:01:52 No, ma'am.

00:01:53 Okay.

00:01:54 And you said it's your wife and your son?

00:01:57 My wife and my son.

00:02:00 Are they in a vehicle?

00:02:02 No, ma'am. They're on the ground out at my kennel.

00:02:11 Okay.

00:02:14 Okay. Is he breathing at all?

00:02:17 No, no.

00:02:20 Okay. Do you see anyone in the area?

00:02:25 No, ma'am.

00:02:27 ma'am. What color is your house on the outside? What color is your house on the

00:02:32 outside? It's white. You can't see it from the road. Okay. Is it a house or a

00:02:38 mobile home? It's a house. Okay. And what is your name? My name is Alex Murdoch.

00:02:48 Okay. And did you hear anything or did you come home and find them? I've been

00:02:52 gone. I just came back.

00:02:57 Okay, and was anyone else supposed to be at your house?

00:03:02 No ma'am. 0.96

00:03:03 Please hurry. 0.83

00:03:08 We're getting somebody out there too.

00:03:15 Oh, Murdoch, while he's continued to maintain his innocence, was found guilty and few that

00:03:32 watched the trial had much doubt about his guilt. However, every defendant in this country is

00:03:40 entitled to a fair trial and to due process unfettered by influence from any third party.

00:03:51 And that is the reason why we and other respected legal scholars have said for a while now that

00:03:58 though, for example, in my case, I believe he did this. He's entitled to a new trial. I said that

00:04:03 before. I said this on this program, not because I like Alec Murdoch, but because the court clerk

00:04:11 interfered with this jury in a way that could not possibly allow this verdict to stand.

00:04:18 And the South Carolina Supreme Court agrees they're going to give him another shot. They've

00:04:24 just reversed the denial of his motion for a new trial, meaning he's going to get his new trial

00:04:30 because the five justices on that court found, quote,

00:04:36 Colleton County Clerk of Court Rebecca Hill placed her fingers on the scales of justice,

00:04:41 thereby denying Murdoch his right to a fair trial by an impartial jury.

00:04:47 Impartial jury, one that hadn't been tampered with.

00:04:50 The court determined that the clerk, shown here, made improper comments to the jury

00:04:56 and that she even wanted to write a book about the case, which she did,

00:05:00 And that she believed a guilty verdict would help with sales.

00:05:05 So they not only knew that she made the improper comments, they knew her motivation for doing it.

00:05:10 And then they called in the jurors, not the South Carolina Supreme Court, but the lower court when this whole issue was raised by the defense because they got wind of what Becky had done, the court clerk.

00:05:22 And they had a whole hearing with the jurors and went through them one by one.

00:05:25 Did you hear her say anything?

00:05:26 What did you hear her say?

00:05:27 And the critical question, did it influence your verdict?

00:05:33 And notwithstanding the fact that one juror known as Juror Z said, yes, yes, it did.

00:05:40 The lower court still refused to give him a new trial.

00:05:46 Now the Supreme Court in South Carolina writing, quote,

00:05:51 Accordingly, we hold Murdoch's right to a fair trial by an impartial jury was violated.

00:05:56 and the post-trial court erred in denying his motion for a new trial.

00:06:01 Wow, so what does all this mean?

00:06:03 Joining me now for reaction, two people who know this case very well,

00:06:07 have previously spoken to us about it and talked about it a lot on their own respective shows.

00:06:11 Vinnie Politan, who is lead anchor for Court TV, as well as host of Vinnie Politan Investigates,

00:06:18 and Charlie Condon, former attorney general for the state of South Carolina and now a criminal defense attorney.

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00:07:51 Gentlemen, welcome back. What a stunning day.

00:07:54 Charlie, let me start with you as the former AG of this state.

00:07:57 And I know you covered this gavel to gavel on a great podcast.

00:08:00 I listened to you, dude, throughout the course of the trial.

00:08:02 Your reaction to this news?

00:08:05 Well, the decision was not surprising because the court telegraphed its feelings during the oral arguments.

00:08:13 But I am really surprised, though, that it was unanimous, all five, a procurium.

00:08:18 They obviously got together and decided it would be best to have an opinion from everybody, not a specific justice.

00:08:25 And I think given the notoriety of the case, they wanted the public to have confidence in this decision.

00:08:30 Yes. And I think the public will, Vinny. I mean, I people will explain to them what happened.

00:08:35 I think most people haven't been paying attention to Becky and her role in this.

00:08:40 But as soon as you hear what this court clerk did, you're shocked. It shocks the conscience.

00:08:45 No. And, you know, I was down there for the trial. So as an outsider, you know, going down to Colleton County, the feeling I got from the beginning, I was calling this a big trial in a small town. And I think the trial, the moment was just too big for Becky.

00:09:03 she didn't get like she the her eyes got really large and she knew everyone was coming in

00:09:09 i think at times her heart was in the right place but she was in over her head and i don't think

00:09:16 she understood her role in all of this with communicating with the jury like tell them when

00:09:22 lunch is okay tell tell them what time they can leave um tell them they you left your eggs in the

00:09:30 in the jury room but don't talk about the case don't talk about the defendant and that's what

00:09:37 she did so like to me she was very naive i don't think she understood it she was relatively newly

00:09:44 elected in the position and was in over her head and to me to you to charlie i think to all of us

00:09:50 it was obvious this couldn't stand i was the shocking part was when they brought the jurors

00:09:56 in, Megan, like you said, and they told their stories. And the judge that the retired judge

00:10:01 that they brought back in for that to make the decision, not the trial judge, said, ah, no

00:10:05 problem, because they didn't want to do it again. They didn't want to do the trial again.

00:10:12 Yes. And there's like this feeling that a lot of us have was like, we all know he did it. And

00:10:16 the court even said in denying his motion for a new trial, there was overwhelming evidence against

00:10:22 him in this case, which is a factor they say they're allowed to consider in whether to grant

00:10:27 or not grant a motion for a retrial. I will say, I mean, Charlie, I'd love to know your thoughts

00:10:31 because I heard you guys say nice things about this clerk, Becky, who prior to this had a good

00:10:37 reputation. But I will say just my own impression now, and of course, you've learned a lot more

00:10:41 about Becky since you covered all this, is not that she made a good faith mistake in not knowing

00:10:48 what just what she could and couldn't say to the jurors. I firmly believe that Becky Hill

00:10:52 is a pathological liar. She's lied repeatedly. She's lied under oath when caught here. She didn't 1.00

00:10:59 say, oh, my gosh, I misunderstood. She lied about what she'd done. The jurors contradicted her.

00:11:04 This court, Supreme Court of South Carolina said she has no credibility. We don't find her credible

00:11:09 at all. I think if you're making an honest mistake, you own it. You apologize for it.

00:11:14 She's she's lied at every turn. But your thoughts? Well, it's hard to argue against what you're saying, but I will say this about Becky.

00:11:20 I do think that Benny's right, that that that she really nice lady, former, I think, court reporter for for one of our judges. 0.52

00:11:29 And she small town lady. Well, I think one of the telling pieces of information I got about her after the trial was that she went on one of the I think that the Today Show maybe.

00:11:41 And she said that was the first time she had been on an airplane.

00:11:45 And I think what had happened was that the notoriety of the case, the media coming in there really went to her head. 0.94

00:11:52 I do think I hear what you're saying about her being a pathological liar.

00:11:55 But my sense of it is that a really nice person, when she got caught with her hand in the cookie jar, so to speak,

00:12:02 she went down the path that so many people do that are otherwise nice, good people and just kept on lying about it.

00:12:08 So I don't know if it's her character that is immensely flawed, but I do think it's fair to say that in that moment that she did not meet the moment.

00:12:17 And I want to say this, too, in reference to the to the judge that heard the post-trial motions.

00:12:22 I think it should be noted. It really wasn't just any judge. It was Jean Toll.

00:12:26 She was the former chief justice of our Supreme Court.

00:12:29 And one of the surprising aspects of of the opinion is the 27 page opinion.

00:12:34 I've read it. At the end, they commend her for her service and said it was a murky area of law.

00:12:41 And I do think that's correct. If you if you read all the South Carolina cases on jury tampering, they are all over the map.

00:12:48 You can you can argue both sides of that, I think, very, very effectively.

00:12:52 And what the Supreme Court has now done is they've given us a very clear roadmap here in South Carolina.

00:12:57 The Rimmer versus United States supplies, there's a three-step analysis you have to go through when there's this type of contact with the jurors.

00:13:06 And I do think, in fairness to former Chief Justice Toll, the cases that she was looking at, they were murky, and the Supreme Court recognized that.

00:13:15 Charlie, you're so sweet. You've always been nice and defensive of the local judges and officials involved in this case.

00:13:23 i am not sweet and less inclined to give these people the benefit of the doubt though i i thought 0.62

00:13:30 jean toll was impressive as she reviewed this case she had quite a quite a whopper handed to her 1.00

00:13:36 um as stepping in right after this case came to verdict to see whether the court clerk had 0.98

00:13:41 queered the verdict by messing with the jurors like such an extraordinary and rare thing

00:13:46 and i'm sure her inclination was having been around the block many times not to throw this

00:13:51 bone to the defendant because they're always trying to overseek the verdict or overturn the

00:13:54 verdicts. It's like, you know, we see that in every case. But this Becky, Vinny, here's just

00:13:59 one example. This is her splitting hairs, but she did lie repeatedly under oath saying she hadn't 0.89

00:14:03 done it. She didn't have these communications and it just wasn't true. Here's one where she

00:14:08 tried to get specific. This is where Dick Harputlian, former multiple time guest of many of

00:14:14 my shows at Fox News, a great lawyer, and he represented Alec Murdoch, cross-examined her

00:14:20 on what she did and did not say to the jurors.

00:14:22 Here it is in SOT 2.

00:14:24 Did you tell the jury not to be fooled by the evidence

00:14:26 presented by Mr. Murdoch's lawyers?

00:14:29 Mr. Harp-Hooley and I never

00:14:30 talked to the jurors about any of the evidence

00:14:32 in this case. If the answer would be yes or no, then you can explain.

00:14:35 Did you say that?

00:14:36 No. Okay. Did you ever tell

00:14:38 the jury to pay attention to

00:14:40 Mr. Murdoch's testimony?

00:14:44 To pay attention. Not

00:14:46 specifically to his testimony.

00:14:48 I did tell the jury to pay attention to what just generally in the hallway when I was speaking.

00:14:55 Not to him. No, just any witness. Right.

00:15:00 Got any other books in the works? No, sir. I mean, doesn't this make a good book?

00:15:08 And Vinny, in the Supreme Court decision that we just got, South Carolina Supreme Court,

00:15:13 They go through the testimony that they heard at that hearing, including from Jersey, a female who said that Hill told some collection of the jurors.

00:15:26 It was later determined three of them heard it to, quote, watch his actions.

00:15:29 This is the day that Murdoch was about to take the stand. Watch his actions. Watch him closely.

00:15:35 She added that Hill said more, but she couldn't remember it. Jersey explained Hill's statements did influence her to find him guilty.

00:15:42 and her affidavit jersey submitted,

00:15:47 gave even more detailed details on what Hill said.

00:15:50 Toward the end of the trial,

00:15:51 quoting here from her affidavit,

00:15:53 after the president's day break,

00:15:54 but before Mr. Murdoch testified,

00:15:56 the clerk of court, Rebecca Hill,

00:15:57 told the jury, quote,

00:15:58 not to be fooled by the evidence

00:16:01 presented by Murdoch's attorneys.

00:16:03 Not to be fooled,

00:16:04 which I understood to mean

00:16:06 that Murdoch would lie when he testifies.

00:16:08 She also instructed the jury

00:16:09 to watch him closely immediately

00:16:10 before he testified,

00:16:11 including to look at his actions and look at his movements, which I understood stood to mean

00:16:16 he was guilty. And then she testified that when the jury began its deliberations,

00:16:22 Becky told the jury, this shouldn't take us long. I mean, this is so bad. Then she said,

00:16:29 I did have questions about Murdoch's guilt, but I voted guilty because I felt pressured by the

00:16:33 other jurors, which would come back later. But all of that is contradicted. I mean, Becky

00:16:38 contradict all of that under oath and this juror had absolutely no reason to lie and it played

00:16:43 directly into today's decision yeah that that's problematically just the fact like from my

00:16:48 perspective looking you know covering our system of justice every day for decades now like a bright

00:16:54 line don't talk to the jury about anything other than just logistics we you know and you're in and

00:17:02 the problem here is like she's like part of the court and and her perception in that courtroom

00:17:06 was she was kind of like the judge's right hand you know gal or whatever in terms of running things

00:17:13 so what she says is going to have much more influence than if it was just some rando

00:17:18 outside or if she over or if someone overheard one of us from the media speaking really loudly

00:17:25 in front of the courthouse like i was doing like her influence is much greater because she's seen

00:17:30 is part of the system and closely tied to the judge. And you know how jurors are with judges.

00:17:38 Like, that's who they look to. Like, the judge is the one guiding them through the system.

00:17:41 And if this is someone who's kind of in with the judge and is telling us to do something, well,

00:17:45 I guess we should do it. Yeah, she had the air of authority of being connected to the judge.

00:17:52 And I mean, this is so egregious, Charlie. This shouldn't take long.

00:17:56 what defense lawyer wouldn't be setting his hair on fire when they heard that no they they had

00:18:03 they had uh they definitely had had that information but a couple of things not to

00:18:07 make too fine a point here most of the jurors i think 10 or 11 of them testified that there was

00:18:13 nothing that was said to them that was untoward that was the actual evidence at the evidentiary

00:18:17 hearing and i'm looking at juror z and i think justice told wrongly hung her hat on this but

00:18:23 Juror Z, follow me on this, she gave an affidavit in which she said, I was pressured by the other

00:18:28 jurors. She then testified that that was the more accurate statement of her feeling, meaning that

00:18:37 the pressure she got from other jurors was the reason that she voted the way she did,

00:18:41 not the improper conduct. So I think Justice Toll wrongly, again, I'm not here to criticize

00:18:47 the court's decision. I think overall it's correct. I mean, I do think that we now have

00:18:51 clear standards in South Carolina when you have this kind of conduct, even if it's going only to

00:18:55 one or two jurors, that's the end of it, unless the state can overcome that presumption. The court

00:19:00 also gave us another roadmap, though. Don't know if you recall that part of the discussion, but

00:19:04 there, in the opinion, there's a court rule that you cannot, and this is a federal court rule as

00:19:09 well, that you can't go into the, you can't have evidence about what the jurors discussed during

00:19:14 the deliberations. The court firmly ruled that, yes, when Justice Toll, former Chief Justice Toll

00:19:19 allowed that testimony in, that was a violation of the court rule. And therefore, in the future,

00:19:25 you can't go there with this. The state is really hamstrung. It can only go by other evidence to

00:19:31 overcome the presumption when there's this improper jury tampering. So now at least we've

00:19:36 got clear guidance. I guess the really sad part about all this, and I think this is really the

00:19:40 sad part of what's happened here, is because of really the improper conduct of this clerk,

00:19:47 having sat at the six-week trial and knowing the preparation that all of these lawyers had to go

00:19:54 into, you know, I hired the prosecutor who prosecuted the case. I knew the judge from

00:19:59 him being a former prosecutor. Dick Hart-Poodle, you mentioned, he ran against, he and I were

00:20:04 both, he was a Democratic nominee for Attorney General. I was a Republican nominee, and I won

00:20:09 that election. So all these people who were in court for six weeks every day from early in the

00:20:16 morning to late in the in the day all that is for not this defendant gets a new trial yeah and all

00:20:24 the and all the food truck vendors will point out how great the the lawyers were that the court

00:20:29 wanted us to know that they wrote uh uh okay hill shocking jury interference was accomplished

00:20:38 outside the presence and knowledge of the outstanding trial judge and superbly competent

00:20:42 and professional counsel for the state and the defense so that no one had any issue with what 0.99

00:20:49 the judge did or what the lawyers did it was the damn clerk vinnie have you ever seen it before 0.93

00:20:55 in all your years at court tv no never never ever ever and and in most of the cases we cover the 0.98

00:21:01 clerk doesn't even have any sort of role in the case there's a bailiff no the clerk gets no air

00:21:07 time no the bailiff will bring the the jury back and forth and that's it there's like one one person

00:21:13 usually here again it's about the moment you have to understand how small this town is megan when

00:21:20 when we all showed up they were afraid that we were going to starve because the restaurants in

00:21:26 that town are open a couple days a week some of them only at night so they brought they made sure

00:21:31 that there were food trucks for all of us they coordinate everything they bent over backwards

00:21:35 to welcome everyone into town but you have but the people there aren't used to that and and and

00:21:43 again i think uh charlie's right with what happened with becky she didn't meet the moment

00:21:48 it got out of control and it snowballed on her so everything that she did after the fact and

00:21:53 trying to like oh my goodness what am i doing here um makes her look you're wrong you guys

00:21:58 are both she wasn't gonna make money she wanted to sell her book yes she wanted to sell her book

00:22:04 If she knew a guilty verdict would be more helpful, that's all over the record.

00:22:09 That's not my speculation.

00:22:10 That's fact.

00:22:11 How much money can you make from a self-published book?

00:22:13 Come on.

00:22:14 Enough to do well in a town that only has restaurants open twice a week.

00:22:18 Have you read the book, Megan?

00:22:20 I did.

00:22:21 Have you read the book?

00:22:23 Well, we did read large portions of it when we covered her plagiarism.

00:22:28 Vinny, there's a pattern of dishonesty.

00:22:31 You stepped right in it.

00:22:33 I have to say. She plagiarized her book. Yeah, I have to say. I'm trying, Becky. I'm trying for

00:22:38 you, Becky. I'm trying my best. Go ahead, Charlie. She needs better counsel. Yeah, I do have to say

00:22:44 that I did read the book and I thought, boy, this book is really not that great, except that the

00:22:48 beginning is really good. And that's the part that Becky plagiarized. She plagiarized it. If

00:22:54 memory serves off of a journalist, right, with whom she had corresponded or whose stuff she had

00:22:59 It was really good.

00:23:00 Yeah, the first part was excellent.

00:23:01 So the court, we've talked about it a little, but I just want to get explicit on it because we have had this legal debate on this program when it came up.

00:23:12 And it was, what standard will the court use in deciding whether Becky's behavior is reversible error, you know, for the judge not to have considered it as a deal breaker?

00:23:23 And the question was whether they would, was it enough to allege and prove interference, which my understanding is that would do it at the federal court level.

00:23:36 If you can prove interference with a juror, you know, material interference, then you can get a reversal on a new trial.

00:23:43 Or did you also have to prove interference and prejudice, like, and it did affect the verdict, and you can prove that it affected the verdict.

00:23:53 And that was the higher South Carolina standard.

00:23:57 And amazingly, the defense team, in my view, they met it.

00:24:03 They got Juror Z to take the stand and say the following here in Sot 3.

00:24:10 Was your verdict influenced in any way by the communications of the clerk of court in this case?

00:24:19 Yes, ma'am.

00:24:20 And how was it influenced?

00:24:22 to me it felt like

00:24:29 she made it seem like he was already guilty did that affect your finding of guilty in this case

00:24:41 yes ma'am they had it right there like it was so open yeah except that the defense put

00:24:52 in her affidavit, which had this business about, hey, I was pressured by the other jurors. And then

00:25:00 the court relied upon that. Yeah, Charlie, let me just read that. Let me just read that,

00:25:03 and then I'll give it to you. This is from the Supreme Court's opinion, again, South Carolina

00:25:06 Supreme Court. Juror Z testified that when the jury began deliberations, Becky Hill told the

00:25:11 jury this shouldn't take us long. In addition to referencing Hill's statements, Juror Z averred in

00:25:16 her affidavit, quote, I had questions about Mr. Murdoch's guilt, but voted guilty because I felt

00:25:23 pressured by the other jurors. She doesn't say by Becky Hill, the clerk, by the other jurors.

00:25:30 And that's what the judge, Judge Toll, picked up on and said to juror Z, quote, I asked you

00:25:39 previously, was your verdict influenced in any way by communications from Becky Hill,

00:25:44 the clerk of court. You answered that question, yes. In light of what you said in the affidavit,

00:25:50 which is, I had questions about his guilt but voted guilty because I felt pressured by the

00:25:54 other jurors, is that answer that I just read a more accurate statement of how you felt?

00:26:02 And Juror Z answered yes. So Juror Z did tell Judge Toll, the greater influence on me was my

00:26:10 fellow jurors who guilted me into finding him guilty. And that was enough for Judge Toll to

00:26:17 say that this is not something we would reverse a guilty verdict on. And now, Charlie, you believe

00:26:24 the standard has been changed as a result of this opinion to sort of just say material interference

00:26:30 is enough to get a verdict overturned? Yes, the Supreme Court now has made it very clear,

00:26:35 And they acknowledge it's a murky, had been a murky area of the law.

00:26:39 It's no longer murky.

00:26:40 It's very clear. 0.58

00:26:41 Removerse of the United States is our standard.

00:26:43 So that if you have this kind of improper conduct, you get a new trial unless the government or the state can rebut it.

00:26:52 And so we've got a very clear roadmap here.

00:26:54 And this is a bit off topic, but I have to say this, Megan, the way you phrase these questions, it just shows that you have just really high level of intelligence.

00:27:02 I can remember that I can remember and really well well well articulated and I remember seeing

00:27:09 maybe a couple weeks ago something about the president saying something about you maybe not

00:27:13 being so bright I want to say for the record that you are extremely bright very talented

00:27:18 and uh the president is wrong about you uh for sure oh you are so sweet Charlie I I appreciate

00:27:26 you vouching that I am not in fact a low IQ nut job I I love it I didn't see it coming but I

00:27:32 love it. My crack team has reminded me on our discussion about your best friend, Becky, Vinny,

00:27:41 that the person she plagiarized, I knew it was a journalist, was BBC journalist Holly Hondrich.

00:27:48 And the plagiarism stemmed from emails from this reporter who accidentally sent them to Hill.

00:27:56 They were discovered after a trove of Becky Hill's emails were made public in response to a FOIA

00:28:01 request. The email showed that reporter Holly Hondrich sent Hill two drafts of an article she

00:28:07 was writing about the double murder trial. And Hondrich had intended to send the drafts to her

00:28:13 editor, also named Rebecca. When she discovered the mistake, she asked Hill to delete her emails.

00:28:19 Hill said she would. Instead, months later, Hondrich's words appeared right at the beginning,

00:28:25 by the way of hill's book now your sweet little cupcake vinnie politan has got a history

00:28:33 of dishonest behavior again in over her head she wanted to write a book she didn't know how to write 1.00

00:28:39 a book she's like she committed to the book and now i've got to put words on paper i thought it'd

00:28:43 be a little bit easier oh i hear some words where did i let me put them on my muse my muse from the

00:28:50 BBC. Okay, I want to keep going because there is a real question now about what's going to happen.

00:28:57 Vinny, what's going to happen now? Oh, I'm making my reservations already. Unless they get a change

00:29:04 of venue. You are, right? Yeah, of course. See, this is the great thing, right? Because I believe,

00:29:09 you know, I listened to the evidence. I saw the evidence. I believe he did it. I think it was

00:29:13 obvious. Once we saw the whole case, I thought it was put together very well. The defense did their

00:29:18 best but like it is what it is the facts are what they are um at the end of the day when a criminal

00:29:24 defendant wins an appeal they win the right to be convicted again on court tv so i think that's i

00:29:33 think that's where we're headed in this one although it does seem there'll be a another

00:29:38 slight change in some of the evidence i think prosecutors will have to pull back a little bit

00:29:42 on in the way that they present some of the financial crime evidence in the case that was

00:29:47 another big point by the defense in their appeal so i think they may have to rein that in a little

00:29:51 bit but at the end of the day it's it's the there's such great evidence in this case and you

00:29:58 have the defendant himself i think the the the only outstanding question will be will he testify again

00:30:05 yeah that's a good question wait before i get you because i know charlie you're an expert on all

00:30:11 this and what's likely to happen or what is going to happen next and i want to hear that but before

00:30:15 that, I wanted to make an additional point on Becky. One of the issues, sorry, but one of the

00:30:22 issues about what she did, okay, so she spoke to the jurors directly the day that Alex Murdoch

00:30:29 testified, and apparently the day that they got the case as well. You know, this shouldn't take

00:30:35 long, the deliberations. But there was also the problem of what Becky Hill did or did not do 1.00

00:30:43 with respect to the so-called egg juror.

00:30:46 Vinny made a joke earlier about, you know,

00:30:48 the clerk of court maybe tells you

00:30:49 you have your eggs back in the jury room.

00:30:51 That was an on-point joke.

00:30:52 And he was referencing something

00:30:53 that it really did happen in the case

00:30:55 where one juror got disqualified

00:30:58 the day of the deliberations,

00:31:00 the day of the closing arguments into deliberations.

00:31:02 And the reason she got disqualified was

00:31:04 there'd been a question about

00:31:06 whether she'd been discussing the case

00:31:08 outside of the courthouse.

00:31:09 And she shouldn't have been discussing the case at all

00:31:11 at this point because they hadn't even gone into deliberations. And there was a possibility that her

00:31:16 disgruntled ex-husband had maybe said something online about this, et cetera. Well, I did not,

00:31:25 I did, I have followed this case closely, but apparently not that closely because I missed 0.70

00:31:30 what, what Becky Hill allegedly said to the egg juror who did get dismissed and replaced by an

00:31:39 alternate the day that they that she was egg juror found herself in trouble and had to go see the

00:31:46 judge because this stuff had come out did she talk about the case out of school she and good old

00:31:52 becky had a discussion and testimony was submitted about what that discussion was and here is a bit

00:32:02 of that from the proceeding before judge toll so she called or she spoke to miss hill correct

00:32:10 Yes.

00:32:10 And Ms. Hill told her, according to the egg juror, the Murdochs probably got to him.

00:32:16 You agree that's what she said in her affidavit?

00:32:19 That's what she said in her affidavit.

00:32:20 Okay.

00:32:20 And then Ms. Hill asked her if she was leaning one way or the other.

00:32:26 And the egg juror said, Mr. Waters, closing was good, but I still have questions.

00:32:35 And she said, what kind of questions?

00:32:37 And she told Ms. Hill she had questions about the guns.

00:32:40 I suppose couldn't find them or they were too used.

00:32:44 And then Ms. Hill asked her, what makes you think he's innocent?

00:32:47 And she said, the video at the kennels.

00:32:51 And then she said, Ms. Hill said, everything the defendant has said has been lies.

00:32:59 And you should forget about the guns.

00:33:01 They will never be seen again.

00:33:03 Are those fleeting comments or are those egregious?

00:33:07 Your Honor, those would be hard-pressed to defend.

00:33:10 That would be much different from what I'm arguing this record.

00:33:13 And then Ms. Hill told her that the full person should just go in and ask for a raise of hands,

00:33:18 and this will be over and done with, and everybody needs to be on the same page.

00:33:23 So I'm struggling, number one, with why the egg juror wasn't allowed to testify,

00:33:29 because that was directly impeaching of Ms. Hill's testimony that she said nothing.

00:33:35 That's amazing.

00:33:36 So clarifying, obviously, that was not Judge Toll, who's female. That was one of the judges on the South Carolina Supreme Court who's wondering why at the Judge Toll hearing this egg juror, dismissed juror testimony was not allowed because it's a smoking gun on the character of Becky Hill.

00:33:55 I mean, honestly, Charlie, have you ever heard of something so egregious?

00:33:59 Well, you're doing a very good job of prosecuting Becky, I must say. It's getting harder and harder to defend her. But I still stick with my earlier comments relative to, I do think that the, Benny's right, if you'd been there, I mean, Walterboro, it's the front porch of Lowcountry, very small town, really nice people.

00:34:18 it's a the county is population wise small and so this massive international media

00:34:25 just comes into walterboro and i do think it went to becky's head and again not to defend

00:34:31 her at all what she did with this with the with the jurors but i just think deep down inside i

00:34:38 think basically she's not a morally corrupt horrible woman i think she's got some really

00:34:44 good quality really deep but again it's very clear she did not meet the moment here in this trial

00:34:48 very clear she did not no no she did not meet the moment but so that all of that is what wound up

00:34:56 getting this ruling uh from the high court and uh and the question about what happens next charlie

00:35:04 so yeah yeah because he already was convicted on all these financial crimes which will keep him

00:35:09 in jail for the rest of his life alone, without the murder convictions. So what does the state

00:35:14 do now? You're right. 40 years, federal court sentence, 27 years, state court sentence. They're

00:35:21 running concurrently. But the news today is that all of the candidates running for attorney general

00:35:26 have said that they would re-prosecute this defendant. They would take office in January.

00:35:34 The current AG, Alan Wilson, said he would re-prosecute. Of course, he won't be AG when

00:35:38 uh, when, when the case would come up. So it looks like, and also my understanding is the

00:35:43 democratic nominee, uh, says the same thing. So everybody's saying they're going to re-prosecute.

00:35:48 So I guess we'll see you soon, I guess, in Walterboro, right, Vinny? Yeah, I'll be there

00:35:53 for sure. For sure. Is there any chance that the, that they strike a deal? Like,

00:35:58 is there a deal to be made now? I don't, I don't think he'll ever admit to murdering

00:36:04 his wife and his son. He'll never do that. Even if it's concurrent, I don't think he does that.

00:36:11 Yeah, I agree. And Vinny, wouldn't he also want the time out of prison, sitting in the courthouse,

00:36:17 getting nicer meals, seeing his family? That's a much more pleasant experience than sitting

00:36:22 in this correctional facility he's now in, which is reportedly not so nice.

00:36:27 A good point. It really would be. I am sort of curious of economics here because it's my

00:36:32 understanding that the attorneys were retained initially, and that you got the sense as the

00:36:37 trial wore on that their budget maybe got very low. I don't think this defendant has any resources

00:36:43 now that I'm aware of. Everything's been taken, I think, through the civil processes. So my

00:36:49 expectation would be that his current attorneys would stick with him really pro bono. We'll see

00:36:54 what happens, but I do think we're looking for a rematch. They were asked at a presser, I think,

00:36:59 after one of these court proceedings,

00:37:01 would you represent him if he gets a new trial?

00:37:05 And they said, that's up to Alec Murdoch,

00:37:07 but yes, we would.

00:37:08 So the question wasn't then asked,

00:37:10 what if he can't pay you anything?

00:37:12 And it's one of those things

00:37:13 for these well-known defense lawyers.

00:37:15 Do you do it for the PR?

00:37:17 Because you're in the news every day for six weeks,

00:37:20 it makes you a national star.

00:37:21 It did for these guys too.

00:37:24 Or not, because you need to pay your bills

00:37:26 just like anybody else.

00:37:27 And I mean, I suppose they could do it out of the loyalty to Alec, too.

00:37:30 Go ahead.

00:37:31 Well, I think when you talk about public relations, there's only a downside if they don't do it.

00:37:36 Other criminal defendants might think a little less of hiring these guys if they're not loyal to the end, even if they're not getting paid, because they're going to presume that they got paid a lot the first time around.

00:37:48 And I don't know what the numbers are.

00:37:50 I have no idea.

00:37:51 But at the end of the day, I think there's only a downside to that if they don't stay on.

00:37:57 And by the way, there'll be a line of attorneys who will do it for free, who will jump in the case.

00:38:02 So you may see a situation where maybe someone jumps in to help them a little bit in all of this, just so they can continue the rest of their practice and continue to generate income.

00:38:14 That's a good point.

00:38:15 I mean, what about a change of venue, Charlie?

00:38:18 Because now the whole world, but certainly all of South Carolina knows, he was convicted for these crimes.

00:38:26 So if you wanted to change the venue, where on earth could you go?

00:38:30 You'd have to go, I don't know, to some place without television or any electronics.

00:38:35 What do you think Harpootlian does to try to get his client a fair trial this time around?

00:38:42 I would think we've got 46 counties in South Carolina.

00:38:45 I can't imagine one county that doesn't have the same amount of jurors saying what they would say about, I've already made up my mind.

00:38:54 That is the standard.

00:38:55 It's not that you've heard publicity. It's that, can you put that aside and be fair and listen only to the evidence in the courtroom? So my expectation would be they would start in Colleton to see how it goes. And if they can't get a panel there, then to ask for a change of venue. But again, that's a strategic decision. I did get the sense, you know, Alec has a lot of local family there. I did get the sense they sort of like being there. They like being in Colleton. So my expectation, we would see a retrial in Colleton.

00:39:23 And what do you think, sticking with you on this, Charlie, because this is a particular question about the procedure, what will change in the second trial? Because, you know, it's interesting to me that juror Z said the reason she was thinking Alec Murdoch was not guilty was the tape at the kennels, because that's the thing for most of the rest of us that sealed his fate as guilty.

00:39:46 He said he, I think the listening audience knows what happened in this case, but I guess I should have given a couple lines.

00:39:53 Long story short, his son Paul was involved in this boating accident in which Paul got very drunk and ran the boat into a piling, killing Mallory Beach, a teenage friend of his.

00:40:03 The parents filed a lawsuit against the Murdochs.

00:40:06 It would wind up spiraling to a place where Alec was going to have to make a bunch of financial disclosures and was going to have to sit for depositions.

00:40:13 And the family finances were going to come under a microscope.

00:40:16 He panicked during all of this, and I'm really short-forming here, but wound up killing that son who had driven the boat, Paul, along with his mother, Paul's mother, and Alec's wife.

00:40:30 And this was done as a sympathy ploy because Alec's law firm was also looking, zeroing in on Alec in the context of all this pressure on him.

00:40:39 And he was always getting examined by his law firm, which we now know he had embezzled from.

00:40:42 He was getting examined by the community and potentially by these good lawyers representing Mallory Beach's family about finances, which would have put his financial schemes into the open.

00:40:52 And the theory of the prosecution was he did this.

00:40:55 He murdered his own family as a sympathy ploy.

00:40:57 And it worked because his law firm backed off on its requests for documents from him.

00:41:03 They felt so bad about what had happened.

00:41:05 And even the lawyers representing the Beach family, you know, they felt bad.

00:41:08 They were kind of going to leave him alone potentially because they just felt like, oh, this is awful.

00:41:11 Meanwhile, that's why he did it.

00:41:14 So back to what could happen at the next trial.

00:41:18 Because what really, I think, helped do him in was he testified, even though his family was killed down at those kennels that night by two different guns, and there were no eyewitnesses, that he was not there.

00:41:31 He hadn't gone to the kennels that night.

00:41:32 He had been over with his ailing mother who had dementia and was dying.

00:41:36 And Paul, before he was killed,

00:41:40 had taken out his phone and taken a video

00:41:42 of dogs who were at the kennels.

00:41:45 And Alex's voice can clearly be heard in the background.

00:41:48 It's very eerie.

00:41:49 His son, in that way, convicted his own father.

00:41:54 His son and that videotape

00:41:57 were the linchpin to this whole thing.

00:41:59 It's as if moments before his death,

00:42:03 he pointed the finger at his murderer

00:42:05 Actually, we've got the soundbite.

00:42:07 We'll play it.

00:42:07 Here it is.

00:42:08 Hey, he's got a bird in his mouth.

00:42:11 Bubba.

00:42:13 Hey, Bubba.

00:42:16 It's a guinea.

00:42:17 It's a chicken.

00:42:20 Come here, Bubba.

00:42:21 Come here, Bubba.

00:42:22 Come here, Bubba.

00:42:25 That put the lie to Alex's claim that he had not been at the kennels.

00:42:31 it's really what forced him to take the stand and try to explain to the jury why he lied and just

00:42:38 sort of went on about how he'd been on drugs and he panicked and whatever nobody believed him

00:42:43 and so the question and now knowing all about the tape team murdoch knowing it's absolutely

00:42:50 coming in knowing how the prosecution will use it how bad it makes him look how he cannot get

00:42:58 rid of it with with his weird explanations as the witness he thought he would be and then there's

00:43:04 the witness he actually was what do they do differently because they they will make different

00:43:10 better decisions these are very good lawyers yeah that's an excellent summary and you know i've

00:43:16 thought about this a good bit actually after the oral arguments at the supreme court where they

00:43:20 telegraphed i think the the decision we have today and i've prosecuted a a number of cases

00:43:26 that came back and we had retrials when I was the prosecutor here in the Charleston area.

00:43:30 And to my experience, a retrial typically benefits the state because you know what the defense is

00:43:36 doing. I think in this case, though, it's completely different. I think the defense

00:43:40 has a real advantage because the way that trial went down, there was all sorts of technical

00:43:45 information that came in. It came in rather rapidly that really provided all sorts of

00:43:51 circumstantial evidence that supported the state's theory. And I think they have a real opportunity

00:43:56 now to reconstruct how they did things and do things quite differently. So I think it's going

00:44:00 to, and also, I do think the defendant will not testify next time. My understanding is he wanted

00:44:04 to testify. However, maybe they can put into evidence, since it was under oath anyway,

00:44:09 and sworn testimony, subject cross-examination, maybe they can put that in anyway. But I think

00:44:13 the defense is going to have a real advantage here. And I think the state will not have as easy

00:44:17 time. There's a Himalayan mountain of evidence against him. But I do think that they're going

00:44:22 to be put to the test a bit more than they were in the first trial. Well, it's an interesting

00:44:27 thing to consider, Vinny, because you mentioned the technical discoveries that were done late

00:44:33 that got into evidence. For example, all the evidence around the car, Alex's car. And my

00:44:38 God, your car is completely spying on you. If you have anything that was purchased within the last

00:44:42 couple of years, it can tell them everything. Like, good luck trying to get away with,

00:44:45 I wasn't speeding or I don't look at my phone while I'm driving between your phone and your

00:44:50 car. They know everything you've done. It's good incentive not to text and drive. But the reason

00:44:58 the financial crimes were admitted, Vinny, into evidence is because the defense opened the door.

00:45:05 They opened the door. Right. That was one of the ones that that they've regretted, I think,

00:45:10 the defense and so the defense has the opportunity not to make these same mistakes um i think they

00:45:16 opened the door didn't they open the door on the the guy who got the guy who shot alec on the side

00:45:23 of the road the defense made a couple of blunders during the course of the trial yeah cousin eddie

00:45:28 that opened the door to testimony that was very bad for alec and they will not be doing that this

00:45:32 time around so i mean notwithstanding the fact that everybody listening to this trial in the

00:45:36 jury box will know he was already convicted. The trial in front of them that they're supposed to

00:45:43 make their decision off of is probably going to be more favorable to the defendant.

00:45:47 Yeah, I agree. I agree. And the analysis has been perfect. But I think the biggest factor in all of

00:45:53 this and what's going to be the difference between trial one and trial two is I think the defense is 0.93

00:45:59 going to double down and try to find 12 egg ladies to be in that jury box. And I think there's a 0.99

00:46:06 better chance to find people like that this trial obviously the case was big everybody kind of knew

00:46:11 about it there were a couple of documentaries it was all the buzz uh down in the low country

00:46:17 but after the trial itself which became bigger than big everybody knew almost every detail about

00:46:26 it so now when you're looking for the jury the prospective jurors are going to know the story

00:46:32 and now who's going to be left in the box only those people who have who who haven't made up

00:46:40 their minds who are these people oh boy like who are these people these are the people who were

00:46:46 down in orlando florida when i was covering another trial involving a mother whose daughter's

00:46:52 body was in the trunk of her car for weeks that's who was left yeah like because of how big that

00:46:59 story was before the trial that the 12 that ended up in the jury box were the 12 that oh yeah well

00:47:06 i don't know maybe maybe she didn't do it and that's that's i think the defense's best shot

00:47:10 here is that you have 12 egg ladies um who despite everything that we've seen and heard

00:47:16 through the documentaries and now the actual trial itself are still saying i don't know

00:47:23 Maybe he didn't do it.

00:47:25 You know, there's a weird dynamic now that's going to be at play, Charlie, that wasn't in the first trial as much, I guess. 0.73

00:47:32 Which is, I don't know, especially women, I hate to say it, they may have a bit of a savior complex here.

00:47:39 Like, I can swoop in, I can relieve him of this terrible fate. 0.70

00:47:46 They can't, really, because of the financial convictions.

00:47:48 But, okay, maybe they're not going to hear about that.

00:47:50 They're not going to be told anything about your verdict doesn't matter.

00:47:54 He's still going to sit in prison.

00:47:57 We talked yesterday on this program for an hour and a half about the Michael Jackson movie and what the evidence is against him.

00:48:03 You know, was he a child molester or wasn't he?

00:48:06 And I do think there's a huge faction of the population that just doesn't want to believe it.

00:48:12 They admired him for Michael Jackson.

00:48:15 We know why they admired him and they just won't believe it.

00:48:17 And for Alec Murdoch, I think there'll be there could be a similar dynamic where he was very well known.

00:48:23 He had a lot of swagger. He was respected in the community.

00:48:26 Now they're going to know potentially probably that he was wrongfully sent to jail.

00:48:31 And it's like, OK, I have the chance to be the savior.

00:48:35 That's a good point. I remember speaking with Dick Hart Putley during the trial.

00:48:39 And he said they focus grouped the the case.

00:48:42 And by far, the strongest reaction they got from people who would be favoring and not guilty would be how could a father kill his beloved son and his beloved wife?

00:48:53 And so you're right. Both of you have made very astute comments.

00:48:57 And to Vinny, to your point and thinking about it, you make a really good point.

00:49:01 if you haven't made up your mind based upon watching the trial with all the evidence out

00:49:06 there that he's guilty if you're honest when you come into the jury panel you're going to tell the

00:49:13 judge i've already made up my mind and you know i think that's going to be probably a lot of people

00:49:17 if not most so the ones that are left if you haven't made up your mind based upon what's out

00:49:21 there you may be very much a defense prone juror so the state may indeed have a very hard time

00:49:29 with convicting this defendant again.

00:49:32 We'll just have to see,

00:49:32 despite the fact there's so much evidence.

00:49:36 Charlie, do we know what is going on

00:49:37 with Buster Murdoch,

00:49:39 who is the remaining surviving son,

00:49:43 who is a couple of years older than Paul

00:49:44 and had gone to law school,

00:49:46 but been kicked out, right?

00:49:48 The last I heard for academic dishonesty.

00:49:53 Well, this is a bit of hearsay I'm repeating,

00:49:56 but I think it's a reliable source.

00:49:57 Someone told me fairly recently

00:49:59 that he was in the in the Buford area selling clothing. And I believe he's happily married.

00:50:06 Oh, wow. Oh, well, I mean, the documentaries about the family do show him with a

00:50:10 loyal partner who seemed to be very supportive of him. I'm going to check myself on the academic

00:50:14 dishonesty standby. But go ahead. Yeah. So I can verify that because we had the video we showed it.

00:50:20 He's selling clothing. He's trying to just live his life. He's married to I think his wife's name

00:50:26 is Brooklyn um she's an attorney and you know in all of this he kind of gets lost in the shuffle

00:50:32 a little bit right like because he he's got the red hair he he reminds you of of Alec to a certain

00:50:38 extent but like he is a victim of all of this like he lost his mother he lost his brother I don't

00:50:45 know exactly what he believes about his father but at the end of the day Buster is a victim and

00:50:51 And, you know, yeah, his last name is Murdoch, but I feel bad for him.

00:50:55 I feel bad for him.

00:50:56 Like, you don't have your mom anymore. 0.91

00:50:58 Some of these documentaries have him convicted of murdering this other resident of the community who was gay. 0.92

00:51:06 And they speculated that Buster was gay.

00:51:08 And they've basically convicted Buster of a murder that he's had absolutely no charges for.

00:51:13 I mean, it's really he's been through the ringer.

00:51:15 This guy, he was indeed forced out of law school due to plagiarism.

00:51:19 Um, guys, thank you. Such a good discussion. Looking forward to part two. We'll have you on

00:51:25 plenty then. All the best to you both. Thank you. Thank you. Crazy, crazy story. Missed calls and

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00:52:41 Now we're turning to an alarming trend in our culture. Despite our hyper-sexualized 0.64

00:52:46 society, people are having less sex and reporting less intimacy and connection than ever before.

00:52:53 At the same time, fewer young people are getting married, starting families,

00:52:57 or forming long-term relationships. So what's behind the decline in sex and intimacy?

00:53:05 Our next guest is an expert on this, and we are glad to have her back. Dr. Deborah So is a sex

00:53:10 neuroscience, easy for me to say, sex neuroscientist and author of the book,

00:53:16 Sextinction, The Decline of Sex and the Future of Intimacy. Debra, welcome back. It's great to 0.93

00:53:22 have you. Hi, Megan. It's so wonderful to see you again. Oh yeah. It's a, you too. I mean,

00:53:27 you were one of our first guests on this show when we were just audio only with your, your first

00:53:33 book. And now it's great to have you back. And everybody should check that out too. It's called

00:53:38 the end of gender. So you hear about this all the time, that the young people, they're not getting

00:53:43 their driver's licenses, they're not really drinking, and they're not having sex. And while

00:53:49 I can understand those first two, there's Uber, people are living with their parents longer. 1.00

00:53:56 I don't know, drinking with the Maha world taking over is no longer favored. And by the way, 1.00

00:54:02 some of these kids have gummies and things like that they use instead, but no sex? So what did

00:54:07 you find? What is the answer? So yeah, I was similarly perplexed by this question because I

00:54:12 thought, yes, Gen Z on average, they are reaching typical life milestones at a delayed pace. But you

00:54:19 would think if they are, you know, not driving and not going crazy and partying, what are they

00:54:24 doing with their spare time instead? So with sex extinction, I wanted to determine, is the sex

00:54:29 recession real? And I do believe it is because I was quite skeptical before. The first study

00:54:33 showing that there was this overall decline in sex was in 2016 and it found that americans were

00:54:39 having less sex than ever before and this was especially pronounced in millennials and this

00:54:43 was expected to continue on for gen z and so now what we see is globally there is this trend of

00:54:47 people it doesn't matter if they are married or single where they live in the world whether it's

00:54:52 east or the west all developed countries all age cohorts um they are having less sex people are

00:54:57 having less sex than ever before but this is especially pronounced among millennials and gen

00:55:01 and particularly men. So the statistic I keep seeing is one in three men and one in five women

00:55:06 have not had sex in the past year. And sextinction is basically a science-based approach to trying to

00:55:12 understand why are we so disconnected? What is taking the place of sex? Especially regarding

00:55:16 what we know nowadays with screens and smartphones. I wrote the book as a guide for parents to help

00:55:22 them understand what to anticipate in terms of child development, how to avoid making the same

00:55:26 mistakes potentially as we made with smartphones and social media. But I would say whether you're

00:55:31 married or single or dating or not interested in any of any of the above, you'll get something out

00:55:36 of the book because I wrote it from that perspective. I do think this is something

00:55:39 that affects everybody, even married people. Well, I know you you write about one of the

00:55:45 problems because it seems to be multifaceted, the answer. And one of the problems is that as

00:55:50 women's financial means rise, so do their demands of their partners. And unfortunately, 0.98

00:55:59 that's happening at the same time that we are dumping on men, not allowing them into college,

00:56:05 not allowing them into the workforce because they're men and we don't, we no longer favor

00:56:09 them. And God forbid there are white men or for that matter, an Asian man, they're not going to 0.94

00:56:13 get into a good college. You know, like all these societal factors are conspiring to keep them down 0.98

00:56:17 and prop up the women. But as the women get propped up socioeconomically, they want someone 1.00

00:56:23 who's at least equal and they would actually prefer higher status to them. And yet our societies are 1.00

00:56:29 not allowing that. Right. So women are hypergamous. This means that they prefer partners who are at

00:56:34 the same level of success as they are or who are more successful than they are. So this is, of

00:56:38 course, doesn't say speak to all women, but just on average and evolutionarily speaking, this makes 0.80

00:56:42 sense in terms of why women prefer someone who has status and resources to provide for them and 0.99

00:56:47 potential children. So what we have in education and in the workforce is that women are far 1.00

00:56:52 excelling their male peers. And I think female success is a wonderful thing. I think female

00:56:58 ambition is wonderful but as you said if we are at the same time intentionally suppressing male

00:57:04 success through initiatives like diversity having quotas that really favor women and minorities

00:57:09 instead of over merit and in some cases explicitly punishing men as many of my former academic

00:57:14 colleagues will tell me they will sometimes experience uh job postings that explicitly

00:57:19 say they are not hiring for men especially in the sciences there are again lots of programs

00:57:24 mentorship opportunities for explicitly for women and early stage researchers that are female

00:57:30 explicitly no such thing for men if you tried to advertise specifically for men i think that

00:57:35 they would get shot down in two seconds so there's this bias there and so when you add those two

00:57:40 things together what happens is there's a smaller number of men whom women find attractive and whom

00:57:46 they wish to date but the thing is men don't care as much about a partner's financial success or

00:57:52 resources. So these highly successful men basically get their pick of women in terms of

00:57:56 no matter how successful a woman is, all women are fighting for this smaller pool of men. 0.84

00:58:01 And the other men who were less successful are basically shut out of the mating market. 0.99

00:58:06 You write about the three sixes rule, which women, many women may inherently have, 0.56

00:58:13 but winds up being an impossibility for virtually all women. Can you speak to that?

00:58:19 Right. So the three sixes refers to basically top tier male specimen in terms of dating. So a man, from this perspective, a man needs to be over six feet tall, have an annual income of over six figures and have a, I'm not sure if I can say, I'll say down below on your show, a penis that is over six inches in length.

00:58:40 so it if you as a woman pursue a man who does not meet these criteria you it's considered settling 0.93

00:58:46 from this perspective so i think it's a little bit ridiculous because from i say a research

00:58:51 perspective and i think if you talk to anyone who's married those factors i mean there's some

00:58:55 truth to say the annual income being uh enough that he can support you and your growing family

00:59:01 say or wanting a partner who's taller because he can potentially protect you and offer physical

00:59:06 safety. But, you know, in terms of penis length, penis, penis girth, it's actually a greater 0.95

00:59:12 predictor of sexual satisfaction. So other factors like personality, comment, comment is growth, 0.97

00:59:18 girth. We're having a tutorial today on penises on the Megyn Kelly show. Yeah. So I think women 0.97

00:59:27 should be allowed to want what they want. But at the same time, this is as I talk in Sextinction 0.94

00:59:31 about the role of social media and just how ridiculous it's become in terms of telling both 0.82

00:59:35 sexes, that they should aspire to attract the highest status partners possible. They have to 0.99

00:59:43 check all these additional boxes. And I mean, these partner, this potential partner, not only

00:59:47 do you have to find them, but you also have to get along. Hopefully they're nice to you. Hopefully

00:59:52 they treat you well. And things like agreeableness, that's so much more important. Chemistry, so much

00:59:57 more important in terms of a long-term relationship. Sense of humor. Yeah, exactly. Totally. Yes. You

01:00:02 you know, you write in the book, this is actually good. Only 14.5% of men in America are over six

01:00:06 feet tall. I didn't know that. Only 14.5% of men in America are over six feet tall. Only 17%

01:00:13 make over $100,000 annually. And then you write, considering that the average penis length is about 0.94

01:00:19 five inches, an even smaller percentage of men will meet all three sixes. So women who, 0.91

01:00:25 whether they're consciously requiring this 0.98

01:00:28 or unconsciously, subconsciously requiring this. 1.00

01:00:32 You gotta check yourself on these ladies 1.00

01:00:34 because you are limiting the pool of potential mates 1.00

01:00:37 down to the single digits

01:00:39 at a time when the men are tough to find to begin with.

01:00:42 So cast a wider net, open your heart, open your mind

01:00:46 and your legs ultimately to something less than six. 1.00

01:00:50 Sorry, it's true.

01:00:51 Okay, now what's happening on the male side though?

01:00:55 Because the one thing that I, when I got to this point of the book, one thing I thought first was it's probably SSRIs in some measure because SSRIs, these antidepressants, lower your libido.

01:01:10 They make you not want to have sex.

01:01:12 And so many people are on them because it's this younger cohort too that's being like just thrown on these drugs by college counselors because they swing by the office one time and like, hey, I'm not adjusting well.

01:01:23 Oh, here, take this.

01:01:24 and there's really not a disclosure or discussion about how it really could lower your libido

01:01:29 in a profound and unfortunate way. Right and in terms of especially children being prescribed

01:01:35 these medications so obviously for your audience I'm sure they're they're well aware don't take

01:01:40 advice from Deborah on Megan Kelly's podcast speak to your mental health professional but

01:01:44 just speaking from a research perspective we don't really know definitively what the long-term

01:01:49 effects are on of antidepressants like ssris on children or their sexual development in it to

01:01:55 adulthood and um so that's concerning and the other thing is researching for this book was

01:02:00 wild to me because there are so many toxins in our environment in our food in the water supply

01:02:06 especially when it comes to pharmaceutical waste that we may or may not be fully aware of so even

01:02:10 if you aren't intentionally taking antidepressants or pharmaceutical drugs or like the birth control

01:02:17 pill you may be in fact exposed to it without your knowing so one of the well well yeah one of the

01:02:23 well-known side effects of antidepressants um is low libido but i would also say for people i mean

01:02:28 there's a larger mental health crisis going on especially among younger younger generations

01:02:31 and when someone is depressed i mean their mood is low they don't really want to be around people

01:02:36 they isolate their self-care goes down you know social skills are not really um the priority

01:02:41 socializing is not really a priority and then the same with anxiety so people are really self-conscious

01:02:46 So all of these things together are creating this context or I guess mental state where people don't want to go out and date. They don't want to have conversations with people. And then with all of these surrogates coming in where you have the AI boyfriends and girlfriends, you have pornography, you have sex dolls and eventually sex robots, which the technology is moving forward quite quickly.

01:03:05 these replacements for in-person sex and also connection make it easier for people to stay in

01:03:12 this state of mind or i think make it less make them less incentivized to want to move beyond

01:03:18 their comfort zone and especially i'd say for gen z i really feel for them because they did grow up

01:03:22 on screens they don't really know a life without the internet or social media and so when that's

01:03:26 your norm you're not it's a lot more difficult i think to imagine a world that in which that is

01:03:32 not the center. And that is not how you talk to partners or potentially meet partners or how you

01:03:36 get sexual gratification. But my larger concern, I would say, yeah, with the low libido, it's not

01:03:41 just the lack of sex, but it's also this disinterest in connecting with other people

01:03:46 and having emotional intimacy, which is just as unhealthy. Right. It's so sad because of course,

01:03:51 if you're feeling it, you're at home alone, depressed and lonely, and you just don't want

01:03:56 to get out there and meet people. It's like the answer to your problems is to get out there and

01:03:59 meet people. And then those problems won't exist. Just push yourself a little. And if you actually

01:04:03 do have a partner with whom you're having sex, your life is going to get better. You write in

01:04:07 the book that one in eight women, citing a survey, one in eight women said, using social media makes

01:04:14 her feel less sexually desirable. This is so interesting because it's not only the problem

01:04:20 of, oh, we all have iPhones and I'd rather watch Netflix on my iPhone or on my big screen than

01:04:26 have sex, which you've also found in the studies that you've surveyed that are cited in the book.

01:04:30 So there's that. Like, I just want to be distracted and escape to some series rather than

01:04:36 have bodily contact with somebody. But it's also that for the women, going online on social media, 1.00

01:04:42 Instagram in particular, I'm sure, I inserted that, makes the women feel less sexually desirable.

01:04:50 And you say one in 11 men also reported feeling less interested in having sex with his partner

01:04:55 after looking at social media influencers.

01:04:58 So this reminds me, Debra, so much.

01:05:00 I've cited this before, but Andrew Schultz,

01:05:02 the comedian, he's brilliant.

01:05:03 He said once on, you know,

01:05:05 the way the comedians have the best insights

01:05:07 into our society, they're brilliant and they're funny

01:05:09 and that's what makes them great. 1.00

01:05:11 And he was saying women, they obsess over like, 0.70

01:05:13 oh God, I need to lose 20 pounds 0.68

01:05:15 or I'm worried about this position

01:05:17 and how it's gonna look or my cellulite or whatever.

01:05:20 And he's like, we couldn't care less.

01:05:24 Ladies, we couldn't care less. 1.00

01:05:27 All we want is access. 1.00

01:05:28 We want to have the experience with you.

01:05:30 Like, please, for the love of God, stop obsessing over those things. 0.62

01:05:34 And these women are looking at these perfect women, in quotes, with the perfect curated lives. 0.88

01:05:41 And they feel fat. 0.92

01:05:42 They feel gross.

01:05:43 They feel less than, undesirable.

01:05:45 Meanwhile, all their partners think like Andrew Schultz thinks.

01:05:49 They honestly don't care.

01:05:50 I mean, I was reading a study of how young women, Gen Z women in particular, are looking to labiaplasty as a result of pornography exposure and avoiding sex, actually feeling anxious about their body and anxious about having sex because their parts don't look like pornographic actresses.

01:06:07 So when you look at social media, there's this trend overall to have a very particular look, which I go, Insect Stinction, I talk about this timeline from going from front-facing cameras and selfies to filters to now we're getting into more sophisticated AI and how this is also spreading into cosmetic trends.

01:06:24 And young, in my hometown, I see teenagers fairly often walking around with injectables in their face.

01:06:30 And I'm thinking these girls are not even done development yet. 0.82

01:06:33 And why do they feel the need to radically change the way they look? 1.00

01:06:36 I think if women or men want to get cosmetic procedures, that's their business. And I'm not judging that at all. I think especially if you have a public facing job nowadays, there's so much pressure. So I fully understand that. But for my concern is for children, especially or young women who are essentially, you know, there's no reason. There's absolutely no reason. And the only reason to me is because they're, you know, vested interests that want to push this on a generation so that they feel insecure and they feel that they need to look outside of themselves to fill that gap or to spend their money on things.

01:07:06 they don't need so with regard to say social media i think it's really unfortunate that even

01:07:11 people who have partners are not interested in having sex with them or even something as simple

01:07:16 as just being on your phone swiping or scrolling when you're with your partner there's so many times

01:07:20 when i'm in public i'll see young couples and i'll think oh that's really sweet and then i'll see

01:07:24 both of them are on their phones together they're not interacting the only time they interact is

01:07:28 when they point they point at their phone to each other so you know i think we'd all benefit from

01:07:33 spending less time on our screens, but also to for the younger generation to be aware that

01:07:37 this is really not something you need to be worried about. And like you said, men are just

01:07:40 happy. They're happy with what they can get. They're not going to notice that insecurity

01:07:44 that you have. And I would say even as we get older as women, men love it. Men love MILFs.

01:07:48 So we have nothing to worry about. Yes, I think that's right. And I think most women actually do 0.84

01:07:55 want and would be very happy with a man who's good to them, who's kind to them, who pays attention

01:08:00 to them, who potentially can provide for them and wouldn't obsess over, you know, how exactly how

01:08:06 tall he is, et cetera. Um, it did remind me that discussion that your reference to what we see

01:08:12 online and how it's like young girls have these images that are not realistic. This isn't about

01:08:17 a filter, but it is about obvious, in my opinion, disordered eating. Um, Demi Moore is at, I think

01:08:24 it's Cannes, right? The Cannes Film Festival is going on now. And she's shockingly thin. She looks

01:08:31 truly anorexic. There was a screen grab of her. The New York Post wrote this, but they weren't 0.98

01:08:38 the only ones. They're not the only ones who phrased it, but they were like, oh, her toned

01:08:43 arms were all the talk at Cannes. Well, correct me if I'm wrong, and it's not Cannes, my team.

01:08:49 But in any event, you see this picture of her, Deborah, she is skin and bones. The outreached arm does not look like an arm with some muscle, you know, and it's just toned, you know, like Angela Bassett, right, who infamously or famously played Tina Turner and rocked that body as well as Tina did.

01:09:11 She looks like a Holocaust victim, forgive me, 0.74

01:09:15 but I mean, it's like just barely any muscle. 0.94

01:09:19 Can we put the picture on the board, please?

01:09:21 Of just a teeny tiny, like sinewy thing

01:09:24 attached to a bone and the elbow is protruding.

01:09:27 The elbow bone is like, I mean,

01:09:29 it always protrudes on everybody.

01:09:30 You can see that bone, but I'm telling you like projectile.

01:09:33 And this should not be celebrated.

01:09:36 This really, to me, should be, I don't want to condemn her

01:09:39 because I think there's something she's dealing with something emotionally, obviously.

01:09:43 But we need to speak out and say, no, no, no, no, that's not healthy.

01:09:46 And it's not it's not attractive.

01:09:48 I with all due respect to me, I think we actually need to shame it and say it's unattractive

01:09:54 because without that added layer of shaming it, you're not going to stop young girls from

01:10:00 wanting to emulate it.

01:10:02 And she is so naturally beautiful, too.

01:10:05 So it's I mean, I can only imagine what her life is like.

01:10:07 And I imagine she's under a lot of pressure to be in the spotlight. So my issue with the glamorization of particular, I guess, a certain narrative around women's bodies or sexuality is when you see, especially older celebrities, and I'm not trying to shame them for their age, but it's like when they're trying to make a comeback, it's about their sex appeal.

01:10:29 It's almost always they're half naked and there's a big splashy, you know, coverage of them with their bits out saying her comeback is here.

01:10:38 Oh, she looks so young. She looks so great. She's usually had quite a bit of work done, which is fine.

01:10:42 But my concern is for girls looking at this and saying, you know, this is a famous woman, very successful woman. 1.00

01:10:48 And yet all the all she has seemed to have all she seems to have to offer from the media's perspective is her sexuality.

01:10:56 and it's not just that she's you know in out in the sunshine enjoying her day it's she's always 1.00

01:11:01 very barely dressed and again there's nothing wrong with women who want to show off their 0.60

01:11:05 bodies but there's something to me it's like the that her value is not that great unless she's 0.64

01:11:11 half naked and i can only imagine what it's like being a girl because growing up you know we had

01:11:15 fashion magazines we had advertising and things like that but it wasn't to the extent that it is

01:11:19 now where you're constantly bombarded you cannot open your phone without seeing this stuff if you're

01:11:23 on social media and it's just such an extreme where in some cases oh my goodness when i think

01:11:28 about i was in a clothing store a while ago and it's it's like don't ask me why i'm in a teen

01:11:33 fashion store but anyway i was there and the advertising looked like quite literally soft

01:11:37 core porn i was stunned it took me a second i said where am i you know and and for teenage girls

01:11:42 who are emulating this i only understand in our culture especially that's so focused on

01:11:47 pornographic imagery and you know making money selling your body using your sexuality taking

01:11:52 all the money you can for men and making money however you can hustle all that stuff. And it's

01:11:58 just, I don't feel that's an appropriate message for young girls. And I don't think it's good for

01:12:01 their self-esteem either. No, I asked my team to pull this. Lily Phillips, she's one of the only

01:12:09 fans. I don't, I don't think you can fairly call her a model. I mean, with all due respect, she's 0.98

01:12:15 a prostitute. I mean, she takes people's money and she has sex with them. So you tell me what 1.00

01:12:19 you'd call that. So I'm very interested in this woman. And there's a couple more who just like

01:12:26 her who are setting these records for having sex with. In her case, it was first like 37 men in a

01:12:32 day. And then it was a hundred men a day. And I think she did a thousand men in a day too.

01:12:37 That's Bonnie Blue, I think.

01:12:38 Or at least it was-

01:12:38 It's her competitor.

01:12:40 Okay.

01:12:41 Not that that's any better.

01:12:42 Yeah, I know there's more than one. And it's not just the two of them, by the way. So this

01:12:47 caught my attention because she, she later sat down for an interview with the BBC and they found,

01:12:54 they found this moment with her. Okay. So here's what happened. She, she, I wound up watching the

01:13:00 documentary, not, not the actual OnlyFans video, but the actual documentary of some filmmaker who

01:13:06 was with her in the lead up to this 100 men in a day and post the 100 men in a day. And in the

01:13:13 lead up, she talked very cavalierly about it. She was really excited. I love sex. It's just something

01:13:17 that I've always loved. My parents know they're not proud, but they support me. And it's just who

01:13:23 I am. So I'm not being forced into it. So there's no shame. But then she has the experience and

01:13:30 each man gets five minutes with her is the way it worked on that 100 men thing. And it was really

01:13:37 so gross. She explained to the documentarian that she started off by giving most of these guys oral 0.76

01:13:43 sex with no condom. So like a hundred men, no condom. And then she'd have actual sex with them 0.99

01:13:49 and they would have to wear the condom. And the room, I'm sorry to be too gross, but people should 0.96

01:13:55 know, the room in which she did this in her own apartment, when the documentarian walked in with

01:14:00 his cameraman, after everybody had left, the cameraman literally gagged from like the sights

01:14:06 and smells of the room. So this is this woman's like, happy go lucky, you know, OnlyFans existence 1.00

01:14:12 where she, she just casually has sex with a hundred men. And this guy, I'll get you the name 0.85

01:14:18 of the documentary because he did a good job in sort of, he was sensitive. What, oh, she texted.

01:14:23 Okay. Let's see. It's, uh, it's on YouTube and it's by a guy named Josh Peters, P-I-E-T-E-R-S.

01:14:29 Um, he was sensitive about her to, to what she'd been going through. And he kind of knew what was

01:14:34 coming, I think before she did. And here is a soundbite of him talking to her right after it

01:14:40 was over and it just took definitely a lot longer than i thought it was gonna be i think it was when

01:14:46 it was only like 40 and i was like i'm not even halfway yet yeah and 40 is still a lot of people

01:14:53 it's not for the weak girls if i'm honest it was hard

01:14:57 i don't know if i'd recommend it why not i think if you're a different type of girl it's very like

01:15:05 it's kind of like being a

01:15:08 in a sense of like

01:15:09 it's just a different

01:15:11 feeling I don't know how to explain it like

01:15:16 it's not like just having

01:15:20 sex with someone 0.86

01:15:21 yeah yeah 0.98

01:15:22 just one in one out like it feels

01:15:24 intense

01:15:25 like more intense than you thought it might

01:15:28 definitely

01:15:30 sorry

01:15:33 i feel so sorry for her it's so sad i mean that the reality of what that does to you did hit her

01:15:47 and i don't even think she understood what she was dealing with there deborah what i find so

01:15:52 disturbing is that this message is being sent to young girls that it's empowering for you to sell

01:15:58 your body, whether it's by producing your own nudes and selling them on platforms like OnlyFans

01:16:03 or if it's working as a sugar baby, which is basically prostitution rebranded for a higher

01:16:08 set of buyers in terms of women, say, wanting to pay off their university tuition or getting 0.99

01:16:14 expensive handbags and shoes and vacations and free plastic surgery. But that's the reality.

01:16:19 It's not good for anyone, I would say, but especially for the young women who gravitate

01:16:23 toward this line of work. Usually there are underlying reasons as to why they find it

01:16:28 interesting or potentially enjoyable. Usually they have a history of sexual abuse or some form

01:16:36 of sexual trauma, and that's not being addressed. And especially with the societal messages and

01:16:41 saying that it's great for women and that this is very entrepreneurial of spirit, it's not good 0.67

01:16:46 for them. And I do think unless they are able to heal from those wounds and deal with underlying

01:16:51 causes. It's going to lead to more tragedy in their own lives. Speaking of something that

01:16:58 happened to you when you were little, the same woman, Lily Phillips, I don't mean to dump on her

01:17:02 because honestly, I feel bad for her. She seems like a sweet person. And I really genuinely feel

01:17:07 sorry for her. I think she needs help. She doesn't need more people signing up for her OnlyFans.

01:17:13 But she gave this interview to BBC Newsnight. And listen to what she said here at SOT55.

01:17:17 honestly i probably watched pornography first when i was maybe 11 and so i've always known

01:17:26 about where i've always knew it was a thing and i always thought it was very normal to watch

01:17:32 and i personally don't think pornography is a bad thing in moderation but if you started watching

01:17:39 at 11 yeah i mean that is so young yeah can you describe how it has influenced you and you and

01:17:47 your brain and your outlook on sex you know what i it actually made me really sex confident and

01:17:55 learn a lot of things i mean that's mostly how i learned through pornography and i i i do think

01:18:03 it has a positive effect on me just in terms of like understanding things a little bit more

01:18:10 is there a direct link between you watching pornography as you grew up and the decisions

01:18:17 you've made to do what you do now i think maybe i mean i don't know a life without pornography

01:18:23 so maybe what do you make of that oh boy i mean it's tragic but this is the reality now the average

01:18:30 age at which kids are exposed to porn is 12 one in seven kids sees porn for the first time at age

01:18:36 10 or younger and it's that age is getting younger and younger and it's I don't blame parents because

01:18:40 they didn't know but it's from access to smartphones at such a young age so the minute a child gets

01:18:46 their own smartphone or device they have access to internet pornography and especially I would say

01:18:52 when you're on the internet and platforms are to some extent incentivized to want to hook children

01:18:59 at a young age because then you have basically a customer for life. Even if they're not paying for

01:19:04 the content, you're going to be able to monetize their views and their clicks. So I have read

01:19:10 countless reports of how this is really warping children's sexual development in terms of an

01:19:16 increase in child-on-child sex crimes where you see children abusing their younger siblings or

01:19:21 classmates. It's some really, really horrific things that are happening. But also this larger

01:19:27 trend of violence in the bedroom especially among gen z i have not spoken to a zoomer who has not

01:19:32 experienced this to some extent either they have asked a partner to choke them during bed during 0.58

01:19:37 sex or they have had a partner ask them to so it's primarily men choking women so either women

01:19:44 asking men to choke them or men wanting to choke the women and i don't believe this is a an organic

01:19:50 preference that these this generation just happens to have i do think this is mostly from pornography

01:19:55 for people who do enjoy being humiliated or physically hurt or potentially terrified during

01:20:03 sex that speaks again to more of abuse or neglect in childhood that has led them to have a very

01:20:09 pathological view of sexuality but for the most part i do think it's porn and i don't even think

01:20:14 most men or women actually enjoy doing this i think from porn they've learned or they believe

01:20:19 that the opposite sex wants this and that's why they do it so people have been very upset at me

01:20:24 for saying this they say like no this is just a quote-unquote consensual thing I remember the

01:20:31 first time I did your show I talked about paraphilias which are abnormal sexual interests

01:20:34 and I said that this is something that should be destigmatized I completely take that back because

01:20:38 in writing Sex Stinction and doing this additional research for the book just seeing how prevalent

01:20:44 these issues have become and I do think so-called sex positivity in society has been a big contributor

01:20:49 to that because now what you have is young girls will see pornography at whatever age hopefully not

01:20:55 that young but probably they will and they will be horrified and disgusted by it but they'll say

01:20:59 well this is what boys want and who am I to say I don't like it because you know society's telling

01:21:03 me that I have to be open to anything if I don't like it maybe I just won't have sex in at all I'll

01:21:08 just say this is not for me which might be contributing to why young people are not as

01:21:11 interested in sex or say there are boys who say I don't want to choke my partner so maybe I'm

01:21:15 better off just you know being staying over here not getting involved in the dating market and so

01:21:19 what happens is instead people don't feel like they can actually advocate for themselves when

01:21:23 they get into a sexual relationship which can then lead to in some cases non-consensual things

01:21:28 happening people getting hurt with the case of sexual strangulation you can die brain damage is

01:21:33 very possible as well in some cases it's accidental if people are under the influence if they do

01:21:38 happen to be drinking or on drugs or even in the dark or they don't know their partner well

01:21:41 I've heard of people choking someone on the first date you know it's it's absolutely insane it's so

01:21:47 dangerous and so I really think you know whatever we can do to prevent this early exposure to

01:21:53 pornography because someone like Lily Phillips I can't speak for her but it really is heartbreaking

01:21:58 to hear her speak about this in this way and to say she doesn't know a life without porn I can't

01:22:03 imagine you know going through before you've even had your first crush or your first kiss

01:22:07 being exposed to this and not knowing what to make of it and especially if a child doesn't have a

01:22:11 parent or someone they trust whom they can go to to talk about it, it can be really distressing.

01:22:16 I hate to say it, but there's this other woman, this sex podcaster, Alex Cooper,

01:22:22 is doing damage daily on her show, in my view. She was just out there. We played the soundbite 1.00

01:22:28 a couple of weeks ago of her saying, hey, you know, if you want to give it up on the first 0.99

01:22:31 day, including anal, good on you. You know, no problem. No guy's like going to run away. 0.99

01:22:36 They're not going to not call you because you gave them that on date one. 0.99

01:22:41 What is beyond idiocy? 0.98

01:22:43 It's actual that to me is actual dangerous talk is trying to normalize that kind of behavior for your average young woman. 1.00

01:22:53 Sure. Just give it give it up entirely on date one. 0.96

01:22:56 Don't make him whine and dine you.

01:22:59 Don't get to know him.

01:23:00 Don't establish a trust.

01:23:02 Don't, you know, make sure that the person who's listening to you, Alex Cooper, has a strong ego and a strong family life and can understand that actually doing that might diminish her in massive ways in her own mind before we even get to what it does in the man's mind.

01:23:17 It's just so irresponsible to talk like that about a very intimate act, a couple of them, with a young audience, which is who's listening to her.

01:23:26 I just find it so. So it's not just the Lily Phillips of the world who at least you have to like go find on OnlyFans and I guess pay for. It's this like this. Her podcast is very popular. She's also on Sirius XM, which is where we're airing right now. So she's been sort of mainstreamed. And I'm sure some of what she talks about is mainstream. But this is who she is. This is what she's advocating for young women.

01:23:51 Yeah, I completely agree with you. And again, I don't know Alex Cooper, so I can't speak to her motivations. But what I will say from an evolutionary perspective is it's very common for women to compete with other women for male sexual partners, right? It's called intrasexual competition.

01:24:05 so what i have observed some women do and it makes sense again from an evolutionary perspective

01:24:10 is they will give women bad advice so that it will sabotage their ability to attract 0.99

01:24:15 a good partner and especially if a woman a woman has a partner it's called mate guarding so she'll

01:24:20 give other women bad advice or make them denigrate themselves so that other men don't find them 0.91

01:24:25 attractive so that her potential partner won't leave her for someone else so if you're telling

01:24:30 If you're telling women to go and basically sleep with men on the first day, do whatever a man wants, do whatever. I believe the term she used was whatever feels good to your body. And again, this is just my personal opinion, but I don't believe that's good advice because men have basically a dual mating strategy in terms of how they evaluate their partners. 0.98

01:24:51 so they are looking for either wife material or they are looking for short term and they may be

01:24:56 looking for these two types of women simultaneously so in many cases they will have say a wife but

01:25:01 they'll also this is obviously not morally good but they will be say cheating with shorter term 0.92

01:25:05 material on the side so they shorter term material women and i don't feel this way about women this 0.83

01:25:09 is just how men categorize women is uh you know women who tend to be more say promiscuous more 0.90

01:25:14 sexually available so they'll have sex with them short term but they definitely are not going to 0.99

01:25:18 invest in them um they're not going to ever give them a ring whereas long-term material women are

01:25:23 the ones who they will invest in they see a future with this person they will have a family with this

01:25:27 person because men do not are generally averse to promiscuting women because they see that as

01:25:33 well if her sexual history involves very many partners with men say she didn't know very well

01:25:37 there's a good chance that's going to continue if i wife her up and do i want to find out sometime 1.00

01:25:41 down the road that she's cheated on me with someone and i've been raising this child who i

01:25:45 believe is my own, but it's actually been sired by another man. So that's where that's the

01:25:49 psychology behind it. So if you're telling women to go out and sleep with however many men, I mean, 0.52

01:25:55 what's not good for the women, because they're going to get attached because women release more

01:25:58 oxytocin, oxytocin during sex than men do. So women are going to get more attached after sex 1.00

01:26:03 than a man will. And the other thing is men, their bonding hormones go down to zero after 0.91

01:26:07 ejaculation. So they're really into you when you're having sex with you. But the minute they 0.98

01:26:11 have their orgasm it that basically shuts off so the sexual systems fascinating between the sexes 0.63

01:26:17 is very different and so as a woman she's going to long for him after he's not going to care about

01:26:22 her and then what is that going to do to her long term if she keeps going through experiences like

01:26:26 that she is going to eventually hate men i actually wrote about this recently for the globe and mail

01:26:30 about how we see this we talk i mean media talks a lot about online radicalization among men and

01:26:36 say the manosphere which i think is very important that we call that out but you see a similar trend

01:26:39 happening among young women and so if they're going through the the motions of this where they're

01:26:43 or these these experiences where they are constantly hooking up with guys and getting

01:26:46 their heart broken each time and they don't understand why they start to blame men instead

01:26:50 of saying hmm maybe this is not the best decision especially when you have the culture telling them

01:26:54 oh this is you know sexual liberation this is good for you as a woman just do what do what you want

01:26:58 to do and also it's very likely she's not even going to have an orgasm from a one-night stand

01:27:02 because women have to be very relaxed they have to trust their partner in order to enjoy their 0.78

01:27:06 experience. And if it's a guy you don't know, it's not going to happen. Yeah, I love that.

01:27:13 You're shorter term material. You're labeling yourself shorter term material. Is that really

01:27:17 what you want? Is that your goal? All right. This is so fascinating, Debra. I love talking to you.

01:27:22 Stand by. We're going to take a quick break. And then there's much, much more I have got to ask

01:27:25 you about Brian Noem. Oh, by the way, just to reiterate, the name of the book is Sextinction,

01:27:32 The Decline of Sex and the Future of Intimacy by Dr. Deborah Soh. When there are supply

01:27:39 constraints on commodities, prices surge. You see it with the fuel prices happening right now,

01:27:44 right? As a result of what's going on in the Strait of Hormuz. And you know what else is a

01:27:48 limited commodity? Gold. They mine it out of the ground, and when it's gone, it's gone.

01:27:54 Governments cannot just print more of it, and that is why everyone from central banks to savvy

01:27:58 savers, consider diversifying with gold. If you've been thinking about it for years, but have never

01:28:04 moved some of your savings into physical gold, consider Birch Gold Group. Now through May 29th,

01:28:10 Birch Gold is giving first-time gold buyers a rebate of up to $10,000 on qualifying purchases.

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01:28:29 and physical gold. Text MK to the number 989898 to see if you qualify for a first-time gold buyer

01:28:34 rebate of up to $10,000. Here with me now, Dr. Debra Soh, S-O-H, sex neuroscientist and author

01:28:47 of the book, Sextinction.

01:28:49 So interesting and so many great nuggets in here.

01:28:53 Okay, we got to spend a minute on Brian Noem.

01:28:58 What is that?

01:29:00 What is that?

01:29:01 Where the man not only wants to be across 0.85

01:29:04 from somebody with the enormous breasts, 1.00

01:29:08 like they call it bimboification, 1.00

01:29:11 like 3,000 cc's was the number that was thrown out

01:29:15 is some huge number. And he, you know, he wants to see her in that, but he himself wants to wear

01:29:21 that stuff. Oh, this is him. We're showing pictures of from the Daily Mail. He himself

01:29:26 wants to pretend he's got the enormous boobs and wears the teeny tiny girl shorts and like wants 1.00

01:29:32 to be called, I think, was it like a slut? He wanted the women to call him like girl names 1.00

01:29:38 as if he's transitioning. You tell me what's going on there, Debra. 0.97

01:29:43 So I always want to start with the same caveat in that I don't know this gentleman, so I can't speak to his particular presentation. But just in terms of what this, say, research literature would suggest, definitely autogynophilia. So this is, and I believe that was your assessment last time as well. So autogynophilia in that some men find it sexually arousing to have the body of a woman.

01:30:06 So I talked about this in my first book, The End of Gender, and this is one of the main motivators for transition nowadays. 0.50

01:30:12 So when you see someone who's born male, who, quote, identifies as female, in some cases has medically transitioned, but is extremely aggressive and is basically screaming at biological women who refuse to go along with this or who say things like, there are differences between you and me, and you should not be in our bathrooms, you should not be in our sports.

01:30:31 um so that is one part of the puzzle in terms of eroticizing a woman's body but then the 0.86

01:30:40 and bimbo bimbofication is a part of that because that's a part of the expression of 0.97

01:30:45 autogynophilia it's basically like a very extreme form of a woman's body and no no woman wants to 0.90

01:30:51 actually look like that or very few women do i'll say and the women who do choose to look like that

01:30:55 probably have some form of psychopathology in terms of why they'd want the rest to be so enormous 0.88

01:30:59 So that basically is the focus of their entire being, right?

01:31:02 When you look at someone who looks like that,

01:31:04 the first thing you're looking at is her breasts. 1.00

01:31:06 And most women, that's not what they want. 1.00

01:31:08 So there's that aspect. 0.99

01:31:10 There's definitely a sexual and masochism aspect

01:31:12 in that the desire to be called, 0.99

01:31:15 what was it, slut, I think, or degraded. 0.99

01:31:19 So sexual masochism revolves around humiliation. 1.00

01:31:24 Yes, hold on. 0.91

01:31:25 I think my team just sent me something on this.

01:31:28 Stand by.

01:31:29 yeah, let's see. The New York Post reports that he allegedly once told the dominatrix he wanted

01:31:35 to leave his wife and become the sex worker's trans bimbo slut, revealing his desire to go 0.98

01:31:41 by the name Crystal, of course. Yeah, that's a lot. So it speaks to, again, the enjoyment of 1.00

01:31:49 being degraded. And again, most healthy women do not desire to be called a slut. If you call a 0.97

01:31:56 woman a slut during sex should be very offended so the fact that there's an individual who's male 0.95

01:32:00 who is who is enjoying this speaks to again there's a weird interpretation of what i think 1.00

01:32:08 some men believe women want during sex because they are not women so they don't actually know

01:32:12 what it's like to be a woman and they've not experienced sexual harassment or assault in

01:32:16 their life so in some cases like they they think that being degraded is somehow a joyful thing

01:32:22 But then the other piece I would say is there's an exhibitionistic aspect. So exhibitionism is typically someone who wants to expose themselves to an unsuspecting person or people, and they find it sexually arousing to see the other person's expression where they get shocked or very, you know, terrified or disgusted.

01:32:39 so there seems to be an element of that here because even though it's not necessarily the

01:32:44 genitals if there's still an aspect of wanting to shock people get attention and then they're

01:32:48 also histrionic traits in that it's wanting to be provocative wanting to again get a lot of

01:32:53 attention attention seeking using sexuality or or sexual language to get attention so again

01:32:58 if this is someone who's being paid to talk to him in a sexual way then um there but there's

01:33:04 There's something about the exhibitionistic aspect because there's a bunch of different reasons why people do this.

01:33:11 Sometimes they're antisocial and they just get kicks out of people being really uncomfortable.

01:33:15 But in some cases, they want to get caught.

01:33:17 The joy is, again, a masochistic element of, especially if you're including your face in photos that are very sexual or potentially humiliating,

01:33:25 there's an underlying desire, maybe at a subconscious level, of wanting to be found out.

01:33:30 because nowadays people can send sexual images

01:33:33 without their face.

01:33:34 Most people would send them without their face, right? 1.00

01:33:36 They would probably cut the head off in the photo 0.91

01:33:38 so that they can't be identified. 0.68

01:33:39 Okay, this is reminding me of a discussion

01:33:42 we had on the air about Jeffrey Toobin.

01:33:45 Of course, he was the CNN Supreme Court analyst

01:33:48 and he's written books on the Supreme Court,

01:33:51 like one of the most austere, respected,

01:33:54 sober legal analysts they had at CNN 0.89

01:33:57 who was caught masturbating on a Zoom call 0.53

01:34:00 with colleagues in advance of the 2020 election.

01:34:04 And I guess he thought the Zoom was over, allegedly. 0.83

01:34:08 And he dropped Trout and jerked off right there 0.82

01:34:11 in front of all of his colleagues, not at CNN. 0.91

01:34:14 This was for his other gig on the magazine.

01:34:16 I don't know, I think it was with the New Yorker.

01:34:18 And wound up losing his gig.

01:34:20 But I don't remember whose theory it was

01:34:24 because somebody came out on the show right after

01:34:25 and that was their theory that it wasn't a mistake,

01:34:28 that at some level he did it because he wanted them to see him doing it.

01:34:33 And I mean, from a very rational perspective,

01:34:36 you can't think that you're going to go, say, on a Zoom call

01:34:38 or sending photos to women you don't know very well of yourself

01:34:42 looking a certain way and think that it's not going to get leaked

01:34:44 or that you aren't going to be, I mean, people are not going to see something.

01:34:47 He thought he had disconnected.

01:34:49 You know, he thought he had left the Zoom.

01:34:52 But there really is a question about it because even,

01:34:54 let's say you're going to do that.

01:34:56 Uh, any sane person who had just been on a zoom with their entire newsroom at the New Yorker,

01:35:03 you'd think would be like really sure it was disconnected and the laptop was closed and like

01:35:10 no one was in. And he not only didn't make triply sure, but it was on and the zoom call was still

01:35:17 going. Like, how could he not know? The more I think about it, how could he not know?

01:35:22 And you're saying that that, is that a kink? Is that what we're describing? Like a kink where 0.93

01:35:26 you need you kind of need to be humiliated yeah well again for so the tubing situation i again i

01:35:31 don't know i always want to preface it just to be clear that uh i'm not necessarily speaking to that

01:35:34 individual but i would say you know there have been case studies of men who do this where they

01:35:40 even if it's not happening in real time they will be masturbating afterwards thinking about people 0.96

01:35:44 being horrified and disgusted at the seeing their penis or i wonder if someone's on a call if it's 0.97

01:35:50 a video call say and they quote accidentally have the call on while they're doing this whether it's 0.98

01:35:55 so they can watch their colleagues' expressions of horror

01:35:58 and discuss as they're doing it,

01:35:59 as the colleagues are noticing,

01:36:00 hey, what is that?

01:36:01 What's going on over there?

01:36:03 Oh my God.

01:36:05 It's such a nightmare to think about.

01:36:08 I would like to say, though,

01:36:09 I really feel for Chrissy Noem and her family,

01:36:12 and my heart goes out to her.

01:36:13 And I also hope that this gentleman

01:36:15 gets the help that he needs.

01:36:18 Yeah, amen to that.

01:36:20 Before we leave the subject of Brian Noem,

01:36:23 there's sort of something related

01:36:24 happening at Oxford. We talked about this with our audience. His name is Matt. I'll spare him

01:36:31 the indignity of using his last name here, but he's a lecturer and tutor at University of Oxford.

01:36:36 And this is how he presents. Look at this guy. He's got the same enormous boobs that Brian

01:36:43 Noem pretended to have. He's in a low cut dress. He also has a bald head, a full man beard. Do we 0.99

01:36:50 have this sound bite of him here? Listen to him talking about, this is just from January. Listen

01:36:53 to this guy i'm in the process of putting a website together and that is proving to be huge

01:37:00 much harder than it probably should be and the problem i'm running up against is um incredibly

01:37:05 low-cut syndrome classic um basically what does it mean to be an expert in something because

01:37:12 it's really not it's all academic talk you get the gist totally bald with his beard is rubbing 0.98

01:37:19 his fake breasts again to me this looks like an autogynophile oh my god i don't know why they 0.99

01:37:28 have to do this especially as an academic the two they make all academics look like they're crazy 0.99

01:37:32 this is not why and shame on oxford for hiring him shame on them uh again on my assessment again i

01:37:40 don't know this person but my personal assessment would be probably something exhibitionistic maybe

01:37:44 a little bit of narcissistic uh personality disorder in there and that this person is talking

01:37:49 about how he has imposter syndrome clearly you don't feel like you're an imposter as pretending

01:37:53 to be a woman here isn't that probably a more pressing point um yeah but yeah definitely with

01:37:59 the low cut i mean if you as a i say as someone as someone who was uh working obviously in the 0.57

01:38:05 sciences you would not dress like that and want to be taken seriously as a woman you just wouldn't 0.97

01:38:09 i mean whether that's fair or not is one question if a woman wouldn't dress like this how do they 0.74

01:38:14 let a man pretending to be a woman dressed like this you know they they if a woman teaching at

01:38:19 Oxford showed up with her breasts almost out of her dress someone would almost surely say

01:38:25 yo Deb Meg it's a no cover up but this guy will get away with it because he's a man and you know

01:38:32 this is his special identity and nobody wants to offend him right no one wants to get fired

01:38:36 if they tell him that he should cover up or maybe put the prosthetic breasts away

01:38:40 even though it's another Kayla Lemieux situation like the shop teacher up in Canada it's like 0.99

01:38:45 you do your sexual fetish behind closed doors where our students our children do not have to 1.00

01:38:53 participate in it and for the ladies in Gold's Gym in California same you know I mean we played

01:38:58 the videotape that we got our hands on it was on social media for a brief period of one guy who was

01:39:03 in the Gold's Gym and I think it was Gold's all the gyms in California allow this and many of them

01:39:08 have been subjected to this, where the guy was beating off inside the stall, inside the women's

01:39:15 bathroom, which was inside the locker room. And a young girl came in and to her credit,

01:39:19 she took out her phone and she videotaped it. And you couldn't see his actual naked body,

01:39:24 but you could see the shadow down below. He was clearly jerking off. And she and her boyfriend 0.99

01:39:31 then came in too and let this guy have it. They didn't hurt him. They just started yelling like,

01:39:35 get out of here. And then the employees came in and they were like, oh, there's nothing we can do.

01:39:39 There's not. They're making women at Planet Fitness. They're making women and girls and 1.00

01:39:45 students here at Oxford participate in these sexual fetishes, which just seems so exploitative

01:39:53 and damaging, Deb. Yeah, it's so egregious. And especially when it comes to self-ID in places

01:39:57 like women's spaces, who is going to exploit this? Of course, sexual predators. And we've seen in 0.69

01:40:03 some cases they are convicted sex offenders who are the ones going and saying well i identify as

01:40:07 a woman so there's nothing you can do about it and in fact if you try to kick me out i have the

01:40:10 right to complain but in the in the case of say men who have these proclivities in terms of

01:40:15 exhibitionism their interactions with people may seem very benign but again it say say with someone

01:40:22 who's a lecturer and is interacting with students looking a certain way they in my opinion are

01:40:27 probably masturbating thinking about it after in terms of how uncomfortable the students are

01:40:30 how the students probably want to say something but don't feel they can because this is someone's 0.94

01:40:34 so-called identity so they're going to get in trouble and if anything they're going to get

01:40:38 removed from the university if they complain so this is basically emboldening sexual predators

01:40:43 and i i just find it so so disgusting um deborah if you don't mind could you stick a stay over uh

01:40:50 to the opposite side of this break for just a brief period because there's a couple things

01:40:53 on your book that i want to touch on and one other subject that i want to get to deborah so

01:40:57 is our guest today. We're talking about her book, Sextinction, The Decline of Sex and the Future of

01:41:02 Intimacy. Stand by. Our sponsor, the Electronic Payments Coalition, says Washington politicians

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01:42:20 news only on the Megyn Kelly channel, Sirius XM 111, and on the Sirius XM app. 0.86

01:42:30 Back with me now is Dr. Debra So. She is the author of the book,

01:42:34 Sextinction, The Decline of Sex and the Future of Intimacy. We've got a couple of things that

01:42:40 we got to get to, including solutions. Okay. But before we do that, I wanted to ask you about

01:42:45 something that happened on the program yesterday. We took a deep dive into the allegations against

01:42:51 Michael Jackson because there's this new huge movie out about him that is just crushing it

01:42:58 at the box office. It's already made a couple hundred million dollars. They say it could make

01:43:02 a billion dollars. His brand is officially back. The movie completely ignores the molestation

01:43:09 scandal. And there are all sorts of reasons why they chose to do that. One is it works better

01:43:15 just to paint him as this music icon. Yay, everybody feels good and goes home.

01:43:19 The second is they actually did originally, reportedly, have a section in there that

01:43:24 tried to debunk the allegations against him and then were reminded that settlement agreements

01:43:29 with some of the accusers prohibited them from saying anything about it. And so they had to

01:43:36 remove what had been a preexisting section of the movie trying to rebut the allegations.

01:43:41 But unfortunately for Team Jackson,

01:43:44 just as this comes out,

01:43:46 this family that Michael was very close with in New Jersey,

01:43:50 it's a crazy story.

01:43:51 If you guys haven't listened to yesterday's show,

01:43:52 you do it when you have some time

01:43:54 because the whole thing was really fascinating, I thought.

01:43:56 We had Mark Garagos on who knew Michael and represented him.

01:43:59 But this family with whom he'd been very close,

01:44:01 he like adopted them and they adopted him from New Jersey.

01:44:03 Regular family.

01:44:04 The dad had been a manager at the Plaza Hotel

01:44:07 and he had met Michael

01:44:08 and they didn't have a lot of money.

01:44:10 and Michael took a liking to him.

01:44:12 And then he introduced Michael to his four children,

01:44:15 three little boys and a girl.

01:44:17 I think all single digits when they first met Michael,

01:44:20 he started going out to New Jersey regularly

01:44:23 and visiting with them.

01:44:25 And then it morphed into like this quote, second family.

01:44:28 He actually, after 9-11,

01:44:30 Michael moved into their little New Jersey modest home

01:44:34 for three months.

01:44:36 Imagine this like regular family, middle class in New Jersey suddenly has Michael Jackson living with them. 1.00

01:44:44 He would bring his chimp. 1.00

01:44:45 I mean, the worst house guest ever. 1.00

01:44:48 So it was a crazy story, but they were always his best witnesses.

01:44:53 And they always said, never, never, never, never.

01:44:56 And they talked about how when the molestation scandal would rear its head because it happened repeatedly over the years, they'd say to their children, God, anything didn't.

01:45:04 And the children said, absolutely not.

01:45:07 He's never laid a finger on us.

01:45:08 He's been a complete gentleman.

01:45:10 He's a member of the family.

01:45:11 No, no, no, no, no.

01:45:12 The family wound up letting the kids go on tour with Michael.

01:45:16 You shouldn't do that.

01:45:16 Don't let your child go away with an adult, not his or her parent, and sleep in their bed, which is what was happening.

01:45:23 And now, after they saw the documentary, in quotes, because it really wasn't one, but it was two guys telling their alleged stories, leaving Neverland in 2019, one of the four now adult children, they're in their, I think, 30s now, said to the other siblings, he did do it to me.

01:45:42 I was lying all those years when I said he didn't.

01:45:45 And all three of the others said, me too.

01:45:48 Wow.

01:45:48 And so they've all now come out in a documentary that aired on 60 Minutes Australia in very powerful testimonials with great detail and said exactly what they claim Michael did to them.

01:46:03 Now, I've got to put a big asterisk at the end of it because they are suing his estate.

01:46:09 And his estate now is more flush with cash than it has been since he died, thanks to this movie.

01:46:15 and they say they have another one,

01:46:17 like a follow-up they're about to drop

01:46:18 as soon as this one falls out of the public eye.

01:46:21 So they're going to make hundreds of millions of dollars

01:46:23 at a minimum.

01:46:24 So their pockets are deep again.

01:46:27 And, you know, I just, no offense to this family

01:46:29 and I have nothing but empathy for these,

01:46:31 you know, now adults,

01:46:32 but children who were allegedly molested,

01:46:35 but it would make it a lot cleaner and more credible

01:46:39 if they just said, this happened to us

01:46:41 and we want you to know, as opposed to,

01:46:43 and now we filed a lawsuit.

01:46:45 to get money. It just complicates things. That's all from a PR perspective.

01:46:49 So the reason I'm setting all this up for you is that when we did our deep dive on Michael Jackson

01:46:54 is we took a look at his own childhood, right? As you just pointed out on this program,

01:47:01 typically these sexual fetishes or kinks or whatever they wind up being, and pedophilia 0.99

01:47:08 is a different thing entirely, but it too typically will begin from something that happened in your 0.91

01:47:13 childhood. I think you'll correct me if I'm wrong because you know all about this. And we looked at

01:47:19 Michael's childhood and he was on the record prior to his death on the extreme abuse, physical abuse

01:47:26 he suffered at the hands of his overbearing father, Joe Jackson, who seems like a truly terrible man.

01:47:35 And Michael testified that he wouldn't even allow his children to call him dad. He made them call

01:47:41 him Joe. He worked them to the bone. He did not allow them to have a childhood of any kind, just

01:47:47 on the road, on tour. You keep working. That's it. He didn't want to see them have any relaxation

01:47:52 time. Michael told interviewers he never, ever had a vacation. I think just one time they had

01:47:57 a vacation where they just stayed at home. But every other day off or weekend, they were working,

01:48:03 making an album, dancing, rehearsing, on tour, et cetera. Just never any downtime. And he as a

01:48:09 little boy would hear kids playing at the park or playing games, and he knew he could never be a

01:48:14 part of it. In addition to that, actual physical abuse, like beatings, which were so bad, he said

01:48:20 his mother had to beg the father over and over saying, you're going to kill him, you're going 0.98

01:48:24 to kill him. But they continued. And then there was this weird twist, Deborah. I mean, I didn't 0.99

01:48:31 see this coming, but of course it had me thinking about the pedophilia accusations, because listen

01:48:36 to what he says his dad used to do to him. If you're a warning, this is disturbing.

01:49:06 And it was just like me dying.

01:49:09 Your foot's all in your face, your back, everywhere. 0.99

01:49:12 I always hear my mother, but no, Joe, you're going to kill him. 1.00

01:49:15 You're going to kill him. 1.00

01:49:16 I would just give up. 1.00

01:49:17 There's nothing I can do.

01:49:21 And I hated him for it.

01:49:24 So disturbing and extremely odd that any parent before administering a corporal punishment against a child would make him strip naked and would oil him up.

01:49:33 It's very strange. 0.59

01:49:35 And to me, there's a very good possibility that Michael left out some portion of that abuse because there's no reason to oil your young child up and make him strip nude before you spank him or, in this disgusting case, whip him with the cord of an iron.

01:49:55 That's, you know, just my speculation given what we're learning about Michael and we've suspected about Michael for years.

01:50:01 So you're the expert on these things.

01:50:03 What do you make of that testimonial and that story?

01:50:06 Yeah, it's really disturbing.

01:50:07 I definitely, well, in terms of your assessment of pedophilia, I do, I personally think that

01:50:13 that is a potential explanation if the allegations are true.

01:50:17 So I don't know whether those allegations are true or not, but according to, I mean,

01:50:22 based on the behavior that you've described in which a grown man chooses to spend lots

01:50:27 of time with children who are not his own to the extent of moving in with the family and sleeping

01:50:34 with these children in his bed that to me is a very very large indicator of pedophilia and so

01:50:41 so for parents listening definitely these are some signs to look out for and i'm sure your audience

01:50:45 knows better than to allow their children to sleep on the same bed as a strange man but typical

01:50:51 Typical things that groomers will do is they will lavish a child with lots of attention, gifts.

01:50:58 They will find ways to touch a child in a non-sexual way so that it normalizes bodily contact.

01:51:05 And they'll tend to do this in front of the parents so that the child thinks, oh, this is normal.

01:51:11 This is okay.

01:51:12 My parents are here.

01:51:12 My parents don't have a problem with this person touching me, even though it's in a non-sexual way.

01:51:16 But so that when the touch progresses to becoming sexual, the child has a more difficult time differentiating and saying, wait a minute, this is not okay now.

01:51:23 Keeping secrets is another way of grooming a child, making it more likely that they're going to keep secrets of, say, a sexual nature when the abuse begins.

01:51:34 So my general advice to parents is always trust your gut, because I do think most parents have a sixth sense about this.

01:51:41 But it's usually, especially with abusers, they tend to be members of the community who are in high regard, who tend to be well-liked.

01:51:48 They tend to be viewed as, in some cases, family men.

01:51:51 And not to say that women aren't abusers, but usually it's men who are the ones who are pedophilic.

01:51:56 And in some cases, they will use their female partners to get access to children or to abuse children.

01:52:01 Like there are some cases I've seen where in a daycare, women will take photos, inappropriate photos of children to send to their male partner. 0.97

01:52:08 the male partner will then put them on uh the internet for you know monetary reasons to uh

01:52:13 yeah well we know what that's for so um just to basically trust your gut instinct and just no

01:52:20 matter how well liked or how popular someone is or how good they seem with kids to be skeptical if

01:52:25 if you are getting that sense but with pedophilia it is biological um so there is and not to say

01:52:30 that all men who abuse children have pedophilia so there are some men who abuse sexually abuse kids

01:52:35 who don't actually have a sexual interest in kids, they'll do it because they're antisocial or

01:52:39 because they can't get access to an adult victim. But for men who actually prefer children over

01:52:44 adult partners, that is pedophilia. It's children under the age of 11. And there are differences in

01:52:50 the structure of their brain in terms of why they are attracted to kids. Because for most people,

01:52:58 when you see a child, it brings up feelings of affection and nurturing. And it's not,

01:53:04 obviously sexual excitement. So when that is the case, there is something that happened in utero

01:53:11 or in terms of their neurodevelopment that has led them to erroneously find children sexually

01:53:17 arousing. I just want to be very clear. I do not condone this idea that we should normalize

01:53:21 pedophilia or de-stigmatize pedophilia or that we should have sympathy for pedophiles. I think

01:53:26 the emphasis really should be on protecting children and speaking to the warning signs so

01:53:33 that children can be protected and public safety is held. But in terms of many, many sexual abusers

01:53:40 will claim that they were sexually abused or abused in childhood to try and evoke sympathy

01:53:44 from, say, law enforcement, or if they are convicted. Wait a minute, are you telling me

01:53:49 that's not true? Because I mean, like, you're kind of blowing my mind right now to say that it's

01:53:53 biological. I always thought the way you become an abuser, a molester of children is you were 0.66

01:54:00 probably molested yourself. There's a chance that they were molested, but that's not necessarily

01:54:05 why they are actually aroused by children. That might lead someone to abuse children in the future,

01:54:11 sexually abused children, but they're not necessarily actually sexually interested in

01:54:15 kids. So these men, if you test them using, say, philometry, which is what a test that's used to

01:54:20 determine male sexual arouse and their preference in terms of their partners, pedophilic men will 0.99

01:54:26 actually prefer they'll respond their penis well we'll talk about penises again their penis will 1.00

01:54:31 respond more to this is really disgusting for your audience just to preface this but will respond 1.00

01:54:37 more to children than adults whereas there are some men who will abuse children but they will

01:54:41 respond more to adults and this test is very difficult to fake it's considered the gold

01:54:44 standard within um say forensics so um that the abuse obviously can lead to someone being

01:54:50 antisocial being more likely to abuse kids for sexual reasons or otherwise but in terms of the

01:54:54 actual preference it's more likely something that is embedded in the brain and as a result it can't

01:54:58 be cured so i think the best approach in that case is either using medication say chemical castration

01:55:05 or definitely monitoring someone and not making society have to go along with this and say that

01:55:10 actually it's not such a big deal we should have sympathy and we should think about adding the p to

01:55:14 the lgbtqia plus plus plus acronym wow this is so so dark but important the thing you said about how

01:55:24 some of these guys will use their female partners for access to children reminded me of one of the

01:55:30 most fascinating and disturbing episodes we've ever done. It was about Jared, the subway guy.

01:55:36 And he's now been outed as a disgusting molester of children. And he wound up having his own 0.93

01:55:43 children too, which is also very dark. But he for years was in correspondence with this woman

01:55:50 who unbeknownst to him was working with the FBI undercover to try to catch him. She got to know

01:55:58 him socially. She was a radio host. He came on her program. They did something to promote heart

01:56:03 health together, totally benign. And he made some inappropriate comment to her where she was like,

01:56:08 what? And he was immediately on her radar. And she spent years thereafter trying to catch him,

01:56:17 trying to get him to say some of these things on tape, and she did. She got him on tape,

01:56:22 and she worked with the FBI. And of course, Jared would wind up behind bars. She came on this

01:56:27 program. We'll find the program number and tell it to the audience in a minute. We actually just

01:56:32 re-ran part of it on one of our Sunday super crime specials. But she talked about how

01:56:39 Jared wanted access to her two children. And she, of course, was never going to allow this,

01:56:47 but she pretended that she was, again, in order to get him on tape. And there was a disturbing

01:56:54 piece of tape where she talked to him about the subject of talking inappropriately about sex or

01:57:01 body parts with the children. And he wanted her desperately to do that because it would lower

01:57:09 their defenses for when he got there and wanted to do that in a sexualized way. We have the tape.

01:57:14 It's a quick piece of tape. Here it is. What kind of cute friends do your kids have? Oh,

01:57:19 they have very cute friends. They know everything about sex. It's all they ever talk about in school.

01:57:25 What I need you to do is to start talking about that kind of stuff in front of them.

01:57:29 You know, you would just say, oh, tell Jared what you're going to talk about in school.

01:57:32 Oh, Lord. What I need you to do is start talking about that stuff in front of them and tell them,

01:57:36 Oh, you know, tell Jared what you talk about at school.

01:57:40 I mean, it's so rare, Debra, you have it black and white on tape.

01:57:45 That's an actual molester of children engaging in the grooming, trying to set up what he thought was his female friend to help him groom the children.

01:57:54 And it just to me, that speaks to so much.

01:57:56 It speaks to what our teachers are doing in having inappropriate secrets with our children, whether it's about their LGBTQ identity or how many genders they may be or potential transitions that the child may or may not be thinking about.

01:58:10 The child, you know, the teacher wants to have a secret with a kid about all of it's so inappropriate and part of grooming.

01:58:17 And it's right there, black and white, that that is grooming behavior.

01:58:21 These schools allow it.

01:58:22 They it's policy in the New York City schools, the privates and now the public's, too, I believe, but definitely the privates for teachers not to tell the parents when a student says that he or she is gender confused or if they want to keep their so-called new identity private to have secrets about something as intimate as gender between a minor and a grown up.

01:58:44 it's so inappropriate absolutely inappropriate and it does it's like a gateway conversation

01:58:48 uh for parent for say teachers who do have more nefarious intentions to use that as a way to build

01:58:54 a bond and trust in a child to then potentially turn those sexual conversations sexual so not

01:59:00 just about now your gender identity or transition but then also potentially opportunities for them

01:59:06 to abuse a child but also i would say with the interview um that you were you mentioned actually

01:59:10 I remember listening to that episode when it came out initially, and that's a very common situation where you will see these predators because they're very cunning.

01:59:17 They will, in some cases, target single mothers.

01:59:19 And this is not to make single mothers out there feel paranoid, but just to be aware that in some cases, the men will want to date women and they'll offer, say, child care help or they'll offer support because they know that it's very difficult being a single mother.

01:59:34 And raising a child on one's own is very challenging in some cases and time consuming.

01:59:38 And so they'll offer to step in and do these tasks and help with that. But again, like I said, you have to be very skeptical of a man who wants to spend a lot of time raising a child who's not his own. Not to say that men can't be great stepfathers, but I'd say especially early on in your relationship with him and to be aware that some of these men do target single mothers because they know they're going to have an easier time getting access to vulnerable kids and having a lot of alone time with those kids.

02:00:01 this is reminding me of the story i told this to jillian michaels when she came on one time

02:00:06 we're talking about like the hazards of our jobs coming back to haunt us she's super fit and you

02:00:11 know attuned to healthy lifestyles with her kids and i'm super dark on the news stories of the day

02:00:18 and think that you know the shark's gonna get you in every ocean and there's gonna get molester

02:00:23 behind every corner it's dark but there was one time where my son was going off on a school

02:00:28 field trip and he was on the bus and all the other moms were like goodbye have a nice time

02:00:32 and i was like look out for the molesters like he looks back i'm like it'll be someone you trust 0.93

02:00:39 megan's so weird megan's secretly packing mace in her kids backpacks

02:00:46 it's dark but it is true like you point out they're going to be full of gifts like michael

02:00:56 Jackson, if you listen to this family, the Casios, these kids now grown up, talk about how he

02:01:03 lavished gifts upon them. And his whole home was a lair for, forgive the term, seducing children.

02:01:15 And what I just mean is like grooming them, making them love you, meaning making them want to spend

02:01:19 more time with you from the Neverland, you know, mini Disney he had out in front with all the rides

02:01:25 to all the Peter Pan stuff to the two-floor arcade.

02:01:28 His friend and lawyer, Mark Garagos,

02:01:30 told us about everything at his home

02:01:33 was meant to dazzle a young child.

02:01:38 And that was apparently his age group,

02:01:40 exactly the age group you said.

02:01:41 They all talked about how when they hit about 14,

02:01:44 he was done with them.

02:01:45 Although a couple of them,

02:01:46 like one of those kids said

02:01:47 he continued the relationship with this one boy

02:01:50 into, I think he said his young 20s.

02:01:54 So it kept going and it got more aggressive physically.

02:01:58 But for the most part, he was done with these children at age 14.

02:02:02 And there was a girl too, so it wasn't all little boys.

02:02:06 But that's, you know, as a parent, you got to ask yourself,

02:02:11 why is Michael Jackson sitting in my small home in middle-class suburban New Jersey

02:02:17 for months on end spending inordinate amounts of time

02:02:22 with my prepubescent children?

02:02:25 Why would any normal man be interested in doing that?

02:02:32 And like this is happening,

02:02:33 not at a Michael Jackson level, Deborah,

02:02:34 but this is happening across the country right now

02:02:37 in other different but similar scenarios

02:02:41 with maybe a coach who's just a little too attentive

02:02:44 or it used to be Boy Scout leaders could still be

02:02:46 um, obviously clergy, there's been an issue, but like, it will be a grown man who seems amazing

02:02:53 and is wowing your kid and possibly your whole family with his kindness and love and gifts and

02:03:01 attention. But you really have to keep asking that question, right? Like why would a grown man

02:03:06 be this interested in spending time with my minor child and God forbid you let them be alone? What,

02:03:12 you know, whatever your judgment, whether he's trustworthy or not, just this, this should be

02:03:16 no alone time between your minor child and any grownup. I mean, I don't know, maybe I'm being

02:03:23 too simplistic. Cause it's like, I think back to my own life. I took clarinet lessons. I was alone

02:03:27 with an old older man. He never laid a hand on me. You know, he taught me how to play the clarinet.

02:03:31 So it's like, it's tough for parents to know exactly where to draw the line, I guess.

02:03:35 Yeah. But I would say, cause there, I've had pushback, you know, I've had in conversations

02:03:39 with people about this and they'll say, you know, that's really excessive. Most people are not

02:03:42 predators but you have to be careful because the ones who are are really good at it and they're

02:03:48 very good at tricking people and they're very charismatic and i would say also until you know

02:03:53 how good these men and women are at deceiving people and hiding the things that they do and 0.79

02:03:59 until you've sat across the table from a child sexual abuser and had a conversation with them

02:04:04 and see the way their minds mind works i think most people we are fortunate to have a bias to

02:04:09 see the good in people and we assume that these things don't happen and these things won't happen

02:04:12 to us but the reality is these things do happen i would also say within families um you know i've

02:04:18 heard from many people and some of the cases that i've seen when i was working in forensics would

02:04:22 consist of families in which there was intergenerational abuse so say say there was a

02:04:27 father who abused the daughter and then went on to abuse the granddaughters as well and so if

02:04:32 there's any abuse like that in the family to please please keep your children away from your

02:04:36 parents because if they abused you they're likely going to abuse your children as well and there

02:04:40 were times when you we'd have patients come into the clinic i was at and um in some cases the the

02:04:45 mother would side with the their boyfriend or husband or stepfather over their own child which

02:04:51 is also heartbreaking so this is so dark i don't want to go keep going down this rabbit hole with

02:04:54 your audience but just basically please you know there we we like to see good in people but i think

02:04:58 it's important to be aware also because child sexual abuse is devastating for children and if

02:05:03 it can be prevented whatever whatever can be done to prevent this and lower the rates of it happening

02:05:08 I think is very important. Yeah. Amen to that. All right. Back on the subject of healthy adult

02:05:14 consensual relationships and why they're not happening. I don't know what the answer is.

02:05:21 Like less SSRIs is my own personal prescription, given what I think is part of the problem, but

02:05:27 you're not going to get rid of the iPhone. You're not going to get rid of Apple TV and Netflix.

02:05:32 you know, you're, you're, we're trying to get rid of the DEI preferences so that men still have a 0.69

02:05:39 fighting shot in society, right? Like that would be one antidote. President Trump in a way is an

02:05:44 antidote. Um, the return of masculinity and the stopping of the shaming of toxic masculinity,

02:05:50 which is just, you know, nine times out of 10 men being men who have in a good way, aggression and

02:05:56 who are strong and who are not afraid of confrontation. Like those are not bad things.

02:06:00 they've kept society alive. So we're making some progress, but it's very interesting to me that

02:06:06 you say this is happening all over the world. It's not just an American thing. So what does

02:06:11 that tell you in terms of finding solutions? It's something global. Right. I think social media is

02:06:16 a big piece of it. And also this increasing animosity between the sexes. So I try to be

02:06:23 very open-minded in terms of the feedback to this book. And I've had angry responses from both men

02:06:28 and women saying that I don't go far enough in terms of

02:06:30 blaming the opposite sex. So I think I did a fair job 0.99

02:06:32 in terms of calling out both sides 0.61

02:06:34 and what I hear from young men is they really

02:06:36 blame feminism for this. So feminism

02:06:38 is pretty much across the entire developed world 0.99

02:06:40 and they feel that women 1.00

02:06:42 are unfairly privileged. Now I think feminism 1.00

02:06:44 at its most 0.99

02:06:46 basic, fundamental

02:06:47 reason was a positive 0.99

02:06:50 thing in terms of getting equal rights for women 1.00

02:06:52 allowing us to vote and

02:06:54 to pursue an education. But

02:06:56 I do believe feminism has gone too far

02:06:58 in its modern iteration in that it in some cases advocates for hating men and against

02:07:03 subjugating men so young men are understandably aggrieved by this and they're saying we just want

02:07:08 to take all rights away from women now at the extreme say like look what feminism has done

02:07:11 feminism is the cause of this and we want nothing to do with modern day women quote unquote because 0.95

02:07:16 they're you know impossible to deal with and then the other side of that is young women see 0.73

02:07:20 the response to the extreme feminism which is young men now saying we want women who are

02:07:25 traditional who are just going to obey our orders essentially stay at home not work um have a large

02:07:31 family not not talk back to us not have a job and not vote and these young women are terrified and 0.74

02:07:37 saying well this generation of men wants to hold this back and take our rights away not realizing

02:07:41 i don't think all the young men who hold these views are actually at the core hateful women i

02:07:47 mean some of them might be but i do think some of it is a response to the extreme how extreme

02:07:52 feminism has become because over time young men have actually become more feminist but this is

02:07:56 gen z is now turning in the opposite direction and saying no feminism has gone too far so i see this

02:08:02 trend continuing because neither side is willing to back down so you're going to see say young

02:08:07 women going more and more and more to the left more feminist and the men are going to go more

02:08:11 to the right and more i guess anti-feminist and so that's that's been one trend but i think also

02:08:17 in terms of solutions which i think is very important trying to get off of these platforms

02:08:22 trying to if you do consume this content it's basically impossible to get away from on social

02:08:26 media especially if you are young or the algorithm picks up that you find it interesting they're

02:08:29 going to bombard you with toxic clips of people complaining about their relationships and

02:08:34 marriages people being uh acting egregiously on dates in some cases it's couples pretending that

02:08:40 they're fighting or that they're i've seen this one genre of content in which the man will say

02:08:46 you're not going to sleep with me tonight okay i'm not paying for your dinner and it's actually

02:08:50 a skit and but it's not clear that it's a skit and i don't know that the content creators intended

02:08:55 for people to know that it's a skit but because it becomes obvious when you look at the rest of

02:08:58 their content that it's just rage bait but you see millions of views on these clips and or in

02:09:03 these videos and i just think of the young people again who are being exposed to this and don't

02:09:07 realize that they're basically being manipulated into thinking this is really common this behavior

02:09:11 is really common because it's intentionally trying to infuriate them and make them hate

02:09:15 the opposite sex so that they'll keep clicking on other things. So that's one thing I'd say the 0.99

02:09:19 other part of that from a biological perspective is to, you know, I talk in sex station about how

02:09:24 the birth control pill, like you said, antidepressants and also low testosterone are

02:09:28 affecting this whole situation in that, you know, birth control pill halts women's ovulation. So

02:09:35 that's going to affect how their sex drive and it affects their interest in sex and the sexual

02:09:39 signaling that they may or may not be putting out towards men in their vicinity. And then also with

02:09:44 men's low testosterone due to potentially you know plastics pesticides synthetic estrogens in

02:09:52 our environment so if men have low testosterone they are not going to feel good about themselves

02:09:56 they're not going to be interested in taking risks and they're going to have a low sex drive but also 0.98

02:10:00 low motivation outside of the bedroom to achieve goals and those are the things women look for 0.99

02:10:04 in men they find that sexy so if you have all that and then the other thing is as women continue 1.00

02:10:10 getting more successful that's going to make it even harder for them to find an appropriate mate 0.93

02:10:14 because they're already more successful than most men

02:10:16 and they're just going to continue being more successful

02:10:18 the longer they're single

02:10:19 because they're just going to keep working.

02:10:21 So I would say we need to really help young men

02:10:23 get back on track.

02:10:24 I don't think it needs to be seen 0.96

02:10:25 as taking away from women's rights.

02:10:27 I do understand why some young women may feel

02:10:29 that it is a threat to them

02:10:31 because they've been indoctrinated

02:10:32 by the education system.

02:10:35 And I think our culture as well,

02:10:37 like man-hating is really much seen

02:10:38 as status quo nowadays.

02:10:40 But if we as women don't appreciate 1.00

02:10:42 being discriminated against,

02:10:43 as we were in the past, I don't think it's fair for us to turn around and now say it's okay because

02:10:47 it benefits us to do the same to men. So I would say in general, meet in real life. Don't be on

02:10:52 apps. Don't be on social media. Women, if you are single and looking to date, you have to make it

02:10:57 so obvious to men that you are into them. I went through the scientific research in terms of how 0.80

02:11:01 to flirt because I'm a very naturally awkward person. So I thought, okay, I can't give my

02:11:05 audience advice if I don't know what I'm talking about. So one thing you can do is smile very,

02:11:09 very widely if you see an attractive man make lots of eye contact i asked you know my audience

02:11:14 what can women do they say you have to make it so obvious just keep looking at him honestly and

02:11:18 smile it that compels a man to come over and speak to you hopefully he will be single and for men i

02:11:26 say get touch his arm yeah yeah that's the other thing you will see that's one thing i would say

02:11:30 if you touch a man's arm hopefully if you know him but uh you'll notice his body language will

02:11:35 change a man will he'll relax if he's into you so that's one thing women can look for and the other

02:11:41 thing i would say for men is to if you are struggling to take care of your physical health

02:11:45 and your mental health is linked to that so eat unprocessed foods you know there's studies showing

02:11:49 that eating ultra processed foods or eliminating ultra processed foods from your diet can actually

02:11:54 improve your mental health especially depression look into if you are experiencing low testosterone

02:11:59 why that might be i think what the current administration is doing in terms of being

02:12:03 focused very much on health and, and just wellness is so important. And I don't understand why it's

02:12:08 being denigrated as a quote, like right wing crazy person agenda, because we could all benefit from

02:12:14 being more tuned to that. Yeah, amen. These are great recommendations. They it's crazy that they

02:12:21 do need to learn how to actually flirt with the opposite sex and like telegraph I'm into you. And 0.99

02:12:26 I would love for you to ask me out, or I'd love to go out with you, whatever, and beyond. But yeah,

02:12:31 fine. Practice makes perfect. Put down the phone and give it a shot. What's the worst that can

02:12:35 happen? And for guys, I would say one other thing. Humor is amazing. If you can make her laugh,

02:12:40 you can make her yours. So like if you are naturally clever, even if you're not the most

02:12:45 handsome guy in the world, you got a great shot because I do think women love somebody who can

02:12:50 make them laugh. And I think we all see that as a long-term source of happiness for us. You know,

02:12:55 that's well beyond, I don't know, brawn or your bank account. Okay, Debra, this has been

02:13:03 fascinating. Thank you so much for giving us so much time today. Again, the name of her book

02:13:07 is Sextinction, The Decline of Sex and the Future of Intimacy. Such a pleasure seeing you again.

02:13:14 Thank you, Megan.

02:13:15 Okay. And then tomorrow we are back with Anna Kasparian. That'll be fun. And we will bring

02:13:21 you the story of Katie Porter and what she's saying about that infamous clip in which she

02:13:28 berates the staffer. I'm sorry. It's like the, we had a whole news hour planned for the first hour

02:13:32 of the show today. And then that South Carolina thing broke with Alex Murdaugh and we went in

02:13:37 a different direction, but we're back on the news tomorrow and we look forward to doing that with

02:13:40 you then. See you there. Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show. No BS, no agenda and no fear.

02:13:51 Thank you.

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The Megyn Kelly Show - May 13, 2026

Alex Murdaugh Convictions OVERTURNED, with Vinnie Politan and Charlie Condon, and the TRUTH About the ＂Sex Recession,＂ with Dr. Debra Soh ｜ Ep. 1316

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