Alex Murdaugh Convictions OVERTURNED, with Vinnie Politan and Charlie Condon, and the TRUTH About the ＂Sex Recession,＂ with Dr. Debra Soh ｜ Ep. 1316
00:00:30.720Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.
00:00:42.420Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. Oh my goodness, we have news for you.
00:00:47.940Second hour, we're going to be joined by Dr. Debra So. She's got a fascinating new book,
00:00:52.340and we're going to get into some of the Christy Noem, Brian Noem issues.
00:00:57.140But we have got to begin with stunning legal news.
00:01:00.940This morning, by a unanimous vote, the South Carolina Supreme Court reversed the murder convictions of Alec Murdoch.
00:01:09.360Mr. Murdoch is the high-profile South Carolina attorney accused of shooting and killing his wife Maggie, along with his son Paul, in June of 2021.
00:01:20.460His six-week trial in 2023 captivated the nation.
00:03:15.380Oh, Murdoch, while he's continued to maintain his innocence, was found guilty and few that
00:03:32.800watched the trial had much doubt about his guilt. However, every defendant in this country is
00:03:40.540entitled to a fair trial and to due process unfettered by influence from any third party.
00:03:51.160And that is the reason why we and other respected legal scholars have said for a while now that
00:03:58.820though, for example, in my case, I believe he did this. He's entitled to a new trial. I said that
00:04:03.960before. I said this on this program, not because I like Alec Murdoch, but because the court clerk
00:04:11.620interfered with this jury in a way that could not possibly allow this verdict to stand.
00:04:18.740And the South Carolina Supreme Court agrees they're going to give him another shot. They've
00:04:24.000just reversed the denial of his motion for a new trial, meaning he's going to get his new trial
00:04:30.960because the five justices on that court found, quote,
00:04:36.600Colleton County Clerk of Court Rebecca Hill placed her fingers on the scales of justice,
00:04:41.760thereby denying Murdoch his right to a fair trial by an impartial jury.
00:04:47.380Impartial jury, one that hadn't been tampered with.
00:04:50.840The court determined that the clerk, shown here, made improper comments to the jury
00:04:56.320and that she even wanted to write a book about the case, which she did,
00:05:00.960And that she believed a guilty verdict would help with sales.
00:05:05.480So they not only knew that she made the improper comments, they knew her motivation for doing it.
00:05:10.480And then they called in the jurors, not the South Carolina Supreme Court, but the lower court when this whole issue was raised by the defense because they got wind of what Becky had done, the court clerk.
00:05:22.100And they had a whole hearing with the jurors and went through them one by one.
00:08:05.580Well, the decision was not surprising because the court telegraphed its feelings during the oral arguments.
00:08:13.600But I am really surprised, though, that it was unanimous, all five, a procurium.
00:08:18.020They obviously got together and decided it would be best to have an opinion from everybody, not a specific justice.
00:08:25.160And I think given the notoriety of the case, they wanted the public to have confidence in this decision.
00:08:30.880Yes. And I think the public will, Vinny. I mean, I people will explain to them what happened.
00:08:35.720I think most people haven't been paying attention to Becky and her role in this.
00:08:40.400But as soon as you hear what this court clerk did, you're shocked. It shocks the conscience.
00:08:45.540No. And, you know, I was down there for the trial. So as an outsider, you know, going down to Colleton County, the feeling I got from the beginning, I was calling this a big trial in a small town. And I think the trial, the moment was just too big for Becky.
00:09:03.860she didn't get like she the her eyes got really large and she knew everyone was coming in
00:09:09.300i think at times her heart was in the right place but she was in over her head and i don't think
00:09:16.280she understood her role in all of this with communicating with the jury like tell them when
00:09:22.660lunch is okay tell tell them what time they can leave um tell them they you left your eggs in the
00:09:30.340in the jury room but don't talk about the case don't talk about the defendant and that's what
00:09:37.220she did so like to me she was very naive i don't think she understood it she was relatively newly
00:09:44.500elected in the position and was in over her head and to me to you to charlie i think to all of us
00:09:50.820it was obvious this couldn't stand i was the shocking part was when they brought the jurors
00:09:56.180in, Megan, like you said, and they told their stories. And the judge that the retired judge
00:10:01.260that they brought back in for that to make the decision, not the trial judge, said, ah, no
00:10:05.480problem, because they didn't want to do it again. They didn't want to do the trial again.
00:10:12.140Yes. And there's like this feeling that a lot of us have was like, we all know he did it. And
00:10:16.440the court even said in denying his motion for a new trial, there was overwhelming evidence against
00:10:22.880him in this case, which is a factor they say they're allowed to consider in whether to grant
00:10:27.420or not grant a motion for a retrial. I will say, I mean, Charlie, I'd love to know your thoughts
00:10:31.720because I heard you guys say nice things about this clerk, Becky, who prior to this had a good
00:10:37.340reputation. But I will say just my own impression now, and of course, you've learned a lot more
00:10:41.380about Becky since you covered all this, is not that she made a good faith mistake in not knowing
00:10:48.060what just what she could and couldn't say to the jurors. I firmly believe that Becky Hill
00:10:52.860is a pathological liar. She's lied repeatedly. She's lied under oath when caught here. She didn't1.00
00:10:59.280say, oh, my gosh, I misunderstood. She lied about what she'd done. The jurors contradicted her.
00:11:04.880This court, Supreme Court of South Carolina said she has no credibility. We don't find her credible
00:11:09.760at all. I think if you're making an honest mistake, you own it. You apologize for it.
00:11:14.320She's she's lied at every turn. But your thoughts? Well, it's hard to argue against what you're saying, but I will say this about Becky.
00:11:20.980I do think that Benny's right, that that that she really nice lady, former, I think, court reporter for for one of our judges.0.52
00:11:29.880And she small town lady. Well, I think one of the telling pieces of information I got about her after the trial was that she went on one of the I think that the Today Show maybe.
00:11:41.100And she said that was the first time she had been on an airplane.
00:11:45.300And I think what had happened was that the notoriety of the case, the media coming in there really went to her head.0.94
00:11:52.280I do think I hear what you're saying about her being a pathological liar.
00:11:55.200But my sense of it is that a really nice person, when she got caught with her hand in the cookie jar, so to speak,
00:12:02.020she went down the path that so many people do that are otherwise nice, good people and just kept on lying about it.
00:12:08.560So I don't know if it's her character that is immensely flawed, but I do think it's fair to say that in that moment that she did not meet the moment.
00:12:17.240And I want to say this, too, in reference to the to the judge that heard the post-trial motions.
00:12:22.940I think it should be noted. It really wasn't just any judge. It was Jean Toll.
00:12:26.340She was the former chief justice of our Supreme Court.
00:12:29.860And one of the surprising aspects of of the opinion is the 27 page opinion.
00:12:34.640I've read it. At the end, they commend her for her service and said it was a murky area of law.
00:12:41.320And I do think that's correct. If you if you read all the South Carolina cases on jury tampering, they are all over the map.
00:12:48.720You can you can argue both sides of that, I think, very, very effectively.
00:12:52.940And what the Supreme Court has now done is they've given us a very clear roadmap here in South Carolina.
00:12:57.660The Rimmer versus United States supplies, there's a three-step analysis you have to go through when there's this type of contact with the jurors.
00:13:06.280And I do think, in fairness to former Chief Justice Toll, the cases that she was looking at, they were murky, and the Supreme Court recognized that.
00:13:15.640Charlie, you're so sweet. You've always been nice and defensive of the local judges and officials involved in this case.
00:13:23.120i am not sweet and less inclined to give these people the benefit of the doubt though i i thought0.62
00:13:30.540jean toll was impressive as she reviewed this case she had quite a quite a whopper handed to her1.00
00:13:36.380um as stepping in right after this case came to verdict to see whether the court clerk had0.98
00:13:41.880queered the verdict by messing with the jurors like such an extraordinary and rare thing
00:13:46.120and i'm sure her inclination was having been around the block many times not to throw this
00:13:51.080bone to the defendant because they're always trying to overseek the verdict or overturn the
00:13:54.560verdicts. It's like, you know, we see that in every case. But this Becky, Vinny, here's just
00:13:59.040one example. This is her splitting hairs, but she did lie repeatedly under oath saying she hadn't0.89
00:14:03.560done it. She didn't have these communications and it just wasn't true. Here's one where she
00:14:08.840tried to get specific. This is where Dick Harputlian, former multiple time guest of many of
00:14:14.860my shows at Fox News, a great lawyer, and he represented Alec Murdoch, cross-examined her
00:14:20.460on what she did and did not say to the jurors.
00:14:48.120I did tell the jury to pay attention to what just generally in the hallway when I was speaking.
00:14:55.920Not to him. No, just any witness. Right.
00:15:00.960Got any other books in the works? No, sir. I mean, doesn't this make a good book?
00:15:08.740And Vinny, in the Supreme Court decision that we just got, South Carolina Supreme Court,
00:15:13.880They go through the testimony that they heard at that hearing, including from Jersey, a female who said that Hill told some collection of the jurors.
00:15:26.320It was later determined three of them heard it to, quote, watch his actions.
00:15:29.880This is the day that Murdoch was about to take the stand. Watch his actions. Watch him closely.
00:15:35.340She added that Hill said more, but she couldn't remember it. Jersey explained Hill's statements did influence her to find him guilty.
00:23:01.960So the court, we've talked about it a little, but I just want to get explicit on it because we have had this legal debate on this program when it came up.
00:23:12.300And it was, what standard will the court use in deciding whether Becky's behavior is reversible error, you know, for the judge not to have considered it as a deal breaker?
00:23:23.620And the question was whether they would, was it enough to allege and prove interference, which my understanding is that would do it at the federal court level.
00:23:36.000If you can prove interference with a juror, you know, material interference, then you can get a reversal on a new trial.
00:23:43.980Or did you also have to prove interference and prejudice, like, and it did affect the verdict, and you can prove that it affected the verdict.
00:23:53.860And that was the higher South Carolina standard.
00:23:57.880And amazingly, the defense team, in my view, they met it.
00:24:03.120They got Juror Z to take the stand and say the following here in Sot 3.
00:24:10.340Was your verdict influenced in any way by the communications of the clerk of court in this case?
00:26:41.440Removerse of the United States is our standard.
00:26:43.820So that if you have this kind of improper conduct, you get a new trial unless the government or the state can rebut it.
00:26:52.080And so we've got a very clear roadmap here.
00:26:54.100And this is a bit off topic, but I have to say this, Megan, the way you phrase these questions, it just shows that you have just really high level of intelligence.
00:27:02.800I can remember that I can remember and really well well well articulated and I remember seeing
00:27:09.420maybe a couple weeks ago something about the president saying something about you maybe not
00:27:13.100being so bright I want to say for the record that you are extremely bright very talented
00:27:18.140and uh the president is wrong about you uh for sure oh you are so sweet Charlie I I appreciate
00:27:26.100you vouching that I am not in fact a low IQ nut job I I love it I didn't see it coming but I
00:27:32.780love it. My crack team has reminded me on our discussion about your best friend, Becky, Vinny,
00:27:41.720that the person she plagiarized, I knew it was a journalist, was BBC journalist Holly Hondrich.
00:27:48.700And the plagiarism stemmed from emails from this reporter who accidentally sent them to Hill.
00:27:56.600They were discovered after a trove of Becky Hill's emails were made public in response to a FOIA
00:28:01.400request. The email showed that reporter Holly Hondrich sent Hill two drafts of an article she
00:28:07.980was writing about the double murder trial. And Hondrich had intended to send the drafts to her
00:28:13.100editor, also named Rebecca. When she discovered the mistake, she asked Hill to delete her emails.
00:28:19.240Hill said she would. Instead, months later, Hondrich's words appeared right at the beginning,
00:28:25.840by the way of hill's book now your sweet little cupcake vinnie politan has got a history
00:28:33.400of dishonest behavior again in over her head she wanted to write a book she didn't know how to write1.00
00:28:39.400a book she's like she committed to the book and now i've got to put words on paper i thought it'd
00:28:43.840be a little bit easier oh i hear some words where did i let me put them on my muse my muse from the
00:28:50.640BBC. Okay, I want to keep going because there is a real question now about what's going to happen.
00:28:57.860Vinny, what's going to happen now? Oh, I'm making my reservations already. Unless they get a change
00:29:04.260of venue. You are, right? Yeah, of course. See, this is the great thing, right? Because I believe,
00:29:09.900you know, I listened to the evidence. I saw the evidence. I believe he did it. I think it was
00:29:13.180obvious. Once we saw the whole case, I thought it was put together very well. The defense did their
00:29:18.180best but like it is what it is the facts are what they are um at the end of the day when a criminal
00:29:24.740defendant wins an appeal they win the right to be convicted again on court tv so i think that's i
00:29:33.420think that's where we're headed in this one although it does seem there'll be a another
00:29:38.040slight change in some of the evidence i think prosecutors will have to pull back a little bit
00:29:42.460on in the way that they present some of the financial crime evidence in the case that was
00:29:47.240another big point by the defense in their appeal so i think they may have to rein that in a little
00:29:51.620bit but at the end of the day it's it's the there's such great evidence in this case and you
00:29:58.880have the defendant himself i think the the the only outstanding question will be will he testify again
00:30:05.100yeah that's a good question wait before i get you because i know charlie you're an expert on all
00:30:11.520this and what's likely to happen or what is going to happen next and i want to hear that but before
00:30:15.300that, I wanted to make an additional point on Becky. One of the issues, sorry, but one of the
00:30:22.140issues about what she did, okay, so she spoke to the jurors directly the day that Alex Murdoch
00:30:29.460testified, and apparently the day that they got the case as well. You know, this shouldn't take
00:30:35.960long, the deliberations. But there was also the problem of what Becky Hill did or did not do1.00
00:30:43.200with respect to the so-called egg juror.
00:30:46.020Vinny made a joke earlier about, you know,
00:33:36.780So clarifying, obviously, that was not Judge Toll, who's female. That was one of the judges on the South Carolina Supreme Court who's wondering why at the Judge Toll hearing this egg juror, dismissed juror testimony was not allowed because it's a smoking gun on the character of Becky Hill.
00:33:55.900I mean, honestly, Charlie, have you ever heard of something so egregious?
00:33:59.540Well, you're doing a very good job of prosecuting Becky, I must say. It's getting harder and harder to defend her. But I still stick with my earlier comments relative to, I do think that the, Benny's right, if you'd been there, I mean, Walterboro, it's the front porch of Lowcountry, very small town, really nice people.
00:34:18.180it's a the county is population wise small and so this massive international media
00:34:25.600just comes into walterboro and i do think it went to becky's head and again not to defend
00:34:31.900her at all what she did with this with the with the jurors but i just think deep down inside i
00:34:38.060think basically she's not a morally corrupt horrible woman i think she's got some really
00:34:44.420good quality really deep but again it's very clear she did not meet the moment here in this trial
00:34:48.680very clear she did not no no she did not meet the moment but so that all of that is what wound up
00:34:56.960getting this ruling uh from the high court and uh and the question about what happens next charlie
00:35:04.680so yeah yeah because he already was convicted on all these financial crimes which will keep him
00:35:09.800in jail for the rest of his life alone, without the murder convictions. So what does the state
00:35:14.880do now? You're right. 40 years, federal court sentence, 27 years, state court sentence. They're
00:35:21.140running concurrently. But the news today is that all of the candidates running for attorney general
00:35:26.680have said that they would re-prosecute this defendant. They would take office in January.
00:35:34.060The current AG, Alan Wilson, said he would re-prosecute. Of course, he won't be AG when
00:35:38.880uh, when, when the case would come up. So it looks like, and also my understanding is the
00:35:43.220democratic nominee, uh, says the same thing. So everybody's saying they're going to re-prosecute.
00:35:48.080So I guess we'll see you soon, I guess, in Walterboro, right, Vinny? Yeah, I'll be there
00:35:53.600for sure. For sure. Is there any chance that the, that they strike a deal? Like,
00:35:58.540is there a deal to be made now? I don't, I don't think he'll ever admit to murdering
00:36:04.540his wife and his son. He'll never do that. Even if it's concurrent, I don't think he does that.
00:36:11.100Yeah, I agree. And Vinny, wouldn't he also want the time out of prison, sitting in the courthouse,
00:36:17.280getting nicer meals, seeing his family? That's a much more pleasant experience than sitting
00:36:22.320in this correctional facility he's now in, which is reportedly not so nice.
00:36:27.720A good point. It really would be. I am sort of curious of economics here because it's my
00:36:32.140understanding that the attorneys were retained initially, and that you got the sense as the
00:36:37.160trial wore on that their budget maybe got very low. I don't think this defendant has any resources
00:36:43.900now that I'm aware of. Everything's been taken, I think, through the civil processes. So my
00:36:49.400expectation would be that his current attorneys would stick with him really pro bono. We'll see
00:36:54.320what happens, but I do think we're looking for a rematch. They were asked at a presser, I think,
00:37:31.040Well, I think when you talk about public relations, there's only a downside if they don't do it.
00:37:36.980Other criminal defendants might think a little less of hiring these guys if they're not loyal to the end, even if they're not getting paid, because they're going to presume that they got paid a lot the first time around.
00:37:48.100And I don't know what the numbers are.
00:37:51.680But at the end of the day, I think there's only a downside to that if they don't stay on.
00:37:57.620And by the way, there'll be a line of attorneys who will do it for free, who will jump in the case.
00:38:02.640So you may see a situation where maybe someone jumps in to help them a little bit in all of this, just so they can continue the rest of their practice and continue to generate income.
00:38:55.600It's not that you've heard publicity. It's that, can you put that aside and be fair and listen only to the evidence in the courtroom? So my expectation would be they would start in Colleton to see how it goes. And if they can't get a panel there, then to ask for a change of venue. But again, that's a strategic decision. I did get the sense, you know, Alec has a lot of local family there. I did get the sense they sort of like being there. They like being in Colleton. So my expectation, we would see a retrial in Colleton.
00:39:23.720And what do you think, sticking with you on this, Charlie, because this is a particular question about the procedure, what will change in the second trial? Because, you know, it's interesting to me that juror Z said the reason she was thinking Alec Murdoch was not guilty was the tape at the kennels, because that's the thing for most of the rest of us that sealed his fate as guilty.
00:39:46.500He said he, I think the listening audience knows what happened in this case, but I guess I should have given a couple lines.
00:39:53.200Long story short, his son Paul was involved in this boating accident in which Paul got very drunk and ran the boat into a piling, killing Mallory Beach, a teenage friend of his.
00:40:03.220The parents filed a lawsuit against the Murdochs.
00:40:06.360It would wind up spiraling to a place where Alec was going to have to make a bunch of financial disclosures and was going to have to sit for depositions.
00:40:13.140And the family finances were going to come under a microscope.
00:40:16.500He panicked during all of this, and I'm really short-forming here, but wound up killing that son who had driven the boat, Paul, along with his mother, Paul's mother, and Alec's wife.
00:40:30.820And this was done as a sympathy ploy because Alec's law firm was also looking, zeroing in on Alec in the context of all this pressure on him.
00:40:39.580And he was always getting examined by his law firm, which we now know he had embezzled from.
00:40:42.780He was getting examined by the community and potentially by these good lawyers representing Mallory Beach's family about finances, which would have put his financial schemes into the open.
00:40:52.800And the theory of the prosecution was he did this.
00:40:55.180He murdered his own family as a sympathy ploy.
00:40:57.940And it worked because his law firm backed off on its requests for documents from him.
00:41:03.260They felt so bad about what had happened.
00:41:05.040And even the lawyers representing the Beach family, you know, they felt bad.
00:41:08.240They were kind of going to leave him alone potentially because they just felt like, oh, this is awful.
00:41:14.360So back to what could happen at the next trial.
00:41:18.340Because what really, I think, helped do him in was he testified, even though his family was killed down at those kennels that night by two different guns, and there were no eyewitnesses, that he was not there.
00:41:31.480He hadn't gone to the kennels that night.
00:41:32.780He had been over with his ailing mother who had dementia and was dying.
00:48:15.180We know why they admired him and they just won't believe it.
00:48:17.340And for Alec Murdoch, I think there'll be there could be a similar dynamic where he was very well known.
00:48:23.100He had a lot of swagger. He was respected in the community.
00:48:26.900Now they're going to know potentially probably that he was wrongfully sent to jail.
00:48:31.960And it's like, OK, I have the chance to be the savior.
00:48:35.840That's a good point. I remember speaking with Dick Hart Putley during the trial.
00:48:39.400And he said they focus grouped the the case.
00:48:42.220And by far, the strongest reaction they got from people who would be favoring and not guilty would be how could a father kill his beloved son and his beloved wife?
00:48:53.820And so you're right. Both of you have made very astute comments.
00:48:57.840And to Vinny, to your point and thinking about it, you make a really good point.
00:49:01.600if you haven't made up your mind based upon watching the trial with all the evidence out
00:49:06.800there that he's guilty if you're honest when you come into the jury panel you're going to tell the
00:49:13.160judge i've already made up my mind and you know i think that's going to be probably a lot of people
00:49:17.160if not most so the ones that are left if you haven't made up your mind based upon what's out
00:49:21.700there you may be very much a defense prone juror so the state may indeed have a very hard time
00:50:56.640Like, you don't have your mom anymore.0.91
00:50:58.000Some of these documentaries have him convicted of murdering this other resident of the community who was gay.0.92
00:51:06.220And they speculated that Buster was gay.
00:51:08.480And they've basically convicted Buster of a murder that he's had absolutely no charges for.
00:51:13.360I mean, it's really he's been through the ringer.
00:51:15.980This guy, he was indeed forced out of law school due to plagiarism.
00:51:19.840Um, guys, thank you. Such a good discussion. Looking forward to part two. We'll have you on
00:51:25.880plenty then. All the best to you both. Thank you. Thank you. Crazy, crazy story. Missed calls and
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00:52:41.360Now we're turning to an alarming trend in our culture. Despite our hyper-sexualized0.64
00:52:46.440society, people are having less sex and reporting less intimacy and connection than ever before.
00:52:53.520At the same time, fewer young people are getting married, starting families,
00:52:57.580or forming long-term relationships. So what's behind the decline in sex and intimacy?
00:53:05.100Our next guest is an expert on this, and we are glad to have her back. Dr. Deborah So is a sex
00:53:10.840neuroscience, easy for me to say, sex neuroscientist and author of the book,
00:53:16.920Sextinction, The Decline of Sex and the Future of Intimacy. Debra, welcome back. It's great to0.93
00:53:22.920have you. Hi, Megan. It's so wonderful to see you again. Oh yeah. It's a, you too. I mean,
00:53:27.420you were one of our first guests on this show when we were just audio only with your, your first
00:53:33.060book. And now it's great to have you back. And everybody should check that out too. It's called
00:53:38.020the end of gender. So you hear about this all the time, that the young people, they're not getting
00:53:43.800their driver's licenses, they're not really drinking, and they're not having sex. And while
00:53:49.160I can understand those first two, there's Uber, people are living with their parents longer.1.00
00:53:56.200I don't know, drinking with the Maha world taking over is no longer favored. And by the way,1.00
00:54:02.540some of these kids have gummies and things like that they use instead, but no sex? So what did
00:54:07.840you find? What is the answer? So yeah, I was similarly perplexed by this question because I
00:54:12.980thought, yes, Gen Z on average, they are reaching typical life milestones at a delayed pace. But you
00:54:19.400would think if they are, you know, not driving and not going crazy and partying, what are they
00:54:24.660doing with their spare time instead? So with sex extinction, I wanted to determine, is the sex
00:54:29.300recession real? And I do believe it is because I was quite skeptical before. The first study
00:54:33.860showing that there was this overall decline in sex was in 2016 and it found that americans were
00:54:39.080having less sex than ever before and this was especially pronounced in millennials and this
00:54:43.060was expected to continue on for gen z and so now what we see is globally there is this trend of
00:54:47.880people it doesn't matter if they are married or single where they live in the world whether it's
00:54:52.040east or the west all developed countries all age cohorts um they are having less sex people are
00:54:57.340having less sex than ever before but this is especially pronounced among millennials and gen
00:55:01.480and particularly men. So the statistic I keep seeing is one in three men and one in five women
00:55:06.720have not had sex in the past year. And sextinction is basically a science-based approach to trying to
00:55:12.360understand why are we so disconnected? What is taking the place of sex? Especially regarding
00:55:16.800what we know nowadays with screens and smartphones. I wrote the book as a guide for parents to help
00:55:22.060them understand what to anticipate in terms of child development, how to avoid making the same
00:55:26.840mistakes potentially as we made with smartphones and social media. But I would say whether you're
00:55:31.040married or single or dating or not interested in any of any of the above, you'll get something out
00:55:36.740of the book because I wrote it from that perspective. I do think this is something
00:55:39.320that affects everybody, even married people. Well, I know you you write about one of the
00:55:45.020problems because it seems to be multifaceted, the answer. And one of the problems is that as
00:55:50.820women's financial means rise, so do their demands of their partners. And unfortunately,0.98
00:55:59.800that's happening at the same time that we are dumping on men, not allowing them into college,
00:56:05.280not allowing them into the workforce because they're men and we don't, we no longer favor
00:56:09.180them. And God forbid there are white men or for that matter, an Asian man, they're not going to0.94
00:56:13.200get into a good college. You know, like all these societal factors are conspiring to keep them down0.98
00:56:17.820and prop up the women. But as the women get propped up socioeconomically, they want someone1.00
00:56:23.740who's at least equal and they would actually prefer higher status to them. And yet our societies are1.00
00:56:29.780not allowing that. Right. So women are hypergamous. This means that they prefer partners who are at
00:56:34.620the same level of success as they are or who are more successful than they are. So this is, of
00:56:38.800course, doesn't say speak to all women, but just on average and evolutionarily speaking, this makes0.80
00:56:42.860sense in terms of why women prefer someone who has status and resources to provide for them and0.99
00:56:47.520potential children. So what we have in education and in the workforce is that women are far1.00
00:56:52.940excelling their male peers. And I think female success is a wonderful thing. I think female
00:56:58.380ambition is wonderful but as you said if we are at the same time intentionally suppressing male
00:57:04.400success through initiatives like diversity having quotas that really favor women and minorities
00:57:09.120instead of over merit and in some cases explicitly punishing men as many of my former academic
00:57:14.200colleagues will tell me they will sometimes experience uh job postings that explicitly
00:57:19.260say they are not hiring for men especially in the sciences there are again lots of programs
00:57:24.320mentorship opportunities for explicitly for women and early stage researchers that are female
00:57:30.960explicitly no such thing for men if you tried to advertise specifically for men i think that
00:57:35.340they would get shot down in two seconds so there's this bias there and so when you add those two
00:57:40.720things together what happens is there's a smaller number of men whom women find attractive and whom
00:57:46.760they wish to date but the thing is men don't care as much about a partner's financial success or
00:57:52.020resources. So these highly successful men basically get their pick of women in terms of
00:57:56.740no matter how successful a woman is, all women are fighting for this smaller pool of men.0.84
00:58:01.440And the other men who were less successful are basically shut out of the mating market.0.99
00:58:06.500You write about the three sixes rule, which women, many women may inherently have,0.56
00:58:13.880but winds up being an impossibility for virtually all women. Can you speak to that?
00:58:19.640Right. So the three sixes refers to basically top tier male specimen in terms of dating. So a man, from this perspective, a man needs to be over six feet tall, have an annual income of over six figures and have a, I'm not sure if I can say, I'll say down below on your show, a penis that is over six inches in length.
00:58:40.980so it if you as a woman pursue a man who does not meet these criteria you it's considered settling0.93
00:58:46.540from this perspective so i think it's a little bit ridiculous because from i say a research
00:58:51.400perspective and i think if you talk to anyone who's married those factors i mean there's some
00:58:55.420truth to say the annual income being uh enough that he can support you and your growing family
00:59:01.280say or wanting a partner who's taller because he can potentially protect you and offer physical
00:59:06.020safety. But, you know, in terms of penis length, penis, penis girth, it's actually a greater0.95
00:59:12.720predictor of sexual satisfaction. So other factors like personality, comment, comment is growth,0.97
00:59:18.620girth. We're having a tutorial today on penises on the Megyn Kelly show. Yeah. So I think women0.97
00:59:27.260should be allowed to want what they want. But at the same time, this is as I talk in Sextinction0.94
00:59:31.500about the role of social media and just how ridiculous it's become in terms of telling both0.82
00:59:35.180sexes, that they should aspire to attract the highest status partners possible. They have to0.99
00:59:43.660check all these additional boxes. And I mean, these partner, this potential partner, not only
00:59:47.900do you have to find them, but you also have to get along. Hopefully they're nice to you. Hopefully
00:59:52.960they treat you well. And things like agreeableness, that's so much more important. Chemistry, so much
00:59:57.700more important in terms of a long-term relationship. Sense of humor. Yeah, exactly. Totally. Yes. You
01:00:02.100you know, you write in the book, this is actually good. Only 14.5% of men in America are over six
01:00:06.980feet tall. I didn't know that. Only 14.5% of men in America are over six feet tall. Only 17%
01:00:13.700make over $100,000 annually. And then you write, considering that the average penis length is about0.94
01:00:19.160five inches, an even smaller percentage of men will meet all three sixes. So women who,0.91
01:00:51.780Okay, now what's happening on the male side though?
01:00:55.200Because the one thing that I, when I got to this point of the book, one thing I thought first was it's probably SSRIs in some measure because SSRIs, these antidepressants, lower your libido.
01:01:12.240And so many people are on them because it's this younger cohort too that's being like just thrown on these drugs by college counselors because they swing by the office one time and like, hey, I'm not adjusting well.
01:01:24.220and there's really not a disclosure or discussion about how it really could lower your libido
01:01:29.400in a profound and unfortunate way. Right and in terms of especially children being prescribed
01:01:35.920these medications so obviously for your audience I'm sure they're they're well aware don't take
01:01:40.360advice from Deborah on Megan Kelly's podcast speak to your mental health professional but
01:01:44.560just speaking from a research perspective we don't really know definitively what the long-term
01:01:49.020effects are on of antidepressants like ssris on children or their sexual development in it to
01:01:55.340adulthood and um so that's concerning and the other thing is researching for this book was
01:02:00.800wild to me because there are so many toxins in our environment in our food in the water supply
01:02:06.320especially when it comes to pharmaceutical waste that we may or may not be fully aware of so even
01:02:10.920if you aren't intentionally taking antidepressants or pharmaceutical drugs or like the birth control
01:02:17.000pill you may be in fact exposed to it without your knowing so one of the well well yeah one of the
01:02:23.060well-known side effects of antidepressants um is low libido but i would also say for people i mean
01:02:28.280there's a larger mental health crisis going on especially among younger younger generations
01:02:31.780and when someone is depressed i mean their mood is low they don't really want to be around people
01:02:36.360they isolate their self-care goes down you know social skills are not really um the priority
01:02:41.660socializing is not really a priority and then the same with anxiety so people are really self-conscious
01:02:46.240So all of these things together are creating this context or I guess mental state where people don't want to go out and date. They don't want to have conversations with people. And then with all of these surrogates coming in where you have the AI boyfriends and girlfriends, you have pornography, you have sex dolls and eventually sex robots, which the technology is moving forward quite quickly.
01:03:05.180these replacements for in-person sex and also connection make it easier for people to stay in
01:03:12.120this state of mind or i think make it less make them less incentivized to want to move beyond
01:03:18.400their comfort zone and especially i'd say for gen z i really feel for them because they did grow up
01:03:22.160on screens they don't really know a life without the internet or social media and so when that's
01:03:26.520your norm you're not it's a lot more difficult i think to imagine a world that in which that is
01:03:32.420not the center. And that is not how you talk to partners or potentially meet partners or how you
01:03:36.440get sexual gratification. But my larger concern, I would say, yeah, with the low libido, it's not
01:03:41.920just the lack of sex, but it's also this disinterest in connecting with other people
01:03:46.040and having emotional intimacy, which is just as unhealthy. Right. It's so sad because of course,
01:03:51.320if you're feeling it, you're at home alone, depressed and lonely, and you just don't want
01:03:56.100to get out there and meet people. It's like the answer to your problems is to get out there and
01:03:59.440meet people. And then those problems won't exist. Just push yourself a little. And if you actually
01:04:03.740do have a partner with whom you're having sex, your life is going to get better. You write in
01:04:07.820the book that one in eight women, citing a survey, one in eight women said, using social media makes
01:04:14.100her feel less sexually desirable. This is so interesting because it's not only the problem
01:04:20.800of, oh, we all have iPhones and I'd rather watch Netflix on my iPhone or on my big screen than
01:04:26.380have sex, which you've also found in the studies that you've surveyed that are cited in the book.
01:04:30.960So there's that. Like, I just want to be distracted and escape to some series rather than
01:04:36.060have bodily contact with somebody. But it's also that for the women, going online on social media,1.00
01:04:42.940Instagram in particular, I'm sure, I inserted that, makes the women feel less sexually desirable.
01:04:50.980And you say one in 11 men also reported feeling less interested in having sex with his partner
01:04:55.680after looking at social media influencers.
01:05:50.840I mean, I was reading a study of how young women, Gen Z women in particular, are looking to labiaplasty as a result of pornography exposure and avoiding sex, actually feeling anxious about their body and anxious about having sex because their parts don't look like pornographic actresses.
01:06:07.180So when you look at social media, there's this trend overall to have a very particular look, which I go, Insect Stinction, I talk about this timeline from going from front-facing cameras and selfies to filters to now we're getting into more sophisticated AI and how this is also spreading into cosmetic trends.
01:06:24.540And young, in my hometown, I see teenagers fairly often walking around with injectables in their face.
01:06:30.620And I'm thinking these girls are not even done development yet.0.82
01:06:33.560And why do they feel the need to radically change the way they look?1.00
01:06:36.180I think if women or men want to get cosmetic procedures, that's their business. And I'm not judging that at all. I think especially if you have a public facing job nowadays, there's so much pressure. So I fully understand that. But for my concern is for children, especially or young women who are essentially, you know, there's no reason. There's absolutely no reason. And the only reason to me is because they're, you know, vested interests that want to push this on a generation so that they feel insecure and they feel that they need to look outside of themselves to fill that gap or to spend their money on things.
01:07:06.180they don't need so with regard to say social media i think it's really unfortunate that even
01:07:11.300people who have partners are not interested in having sex with them or even something as simple
01:07:16.100as just being on your phone swiping or scrolling when you're with your partner there's so many times
01:07:20.980when i'm in public i'll see young couples and i'll think oh that's really sweet and then i'll see
01:07:24.340both of them are on their phones together they're not interacting the only time they interact is
01:07:28.100when they point they point at their phone to each other so you know i think we'd all benefit from
01:07:33.220spending less time on our screens, but also to for the younger generation to be aware that
01:07:37.360this is really not something you need to be worried about. And like you said, men are just
01:07:40.380happy. They're happy with what they can get. They're not going to notice that insecurity
01:07:44.120that you have. And I would say even as we get older as women, men love it. Men love MILFs.
01:07:48.660So we have nothing to worry about. Yes, I think that's right. And I think most women actually do0.84
01:07:55.320want and would be very happy with a man who's good to them, who's kind to them, who pays attention
01:08:00.480to them, who potentially can provide for them and wouldn't obsess over, you know, how exactly how
01:08:06.580tall he is, et cetera. Um, it did remind me that discussion that your reference to what we see
01:08:12.460online and how it's like young girls have these images that are not realistic. This isn't about
01:08:17.060a filter, but it is about obvious, in my opinion, disordered eating. Um, Demi Moore is at, I think
01:08:24.480it's Cannes, right? The Cannes Film Festival is going on now. And she's shockingly thin. She looks
01:08:31.900truly anorexic. There was a screen grab of her. The New York Post wrote this, but they weren't0.98
01:08:38.880the only ones. They're not the only ones who phrased it, but they were like, oh, her toned
01:08:43.420arms were all the talk at Cannes. Well, correct me if I'm wrong, and it's not Cannes, my team.
01:08:49.860But in any event, you see this picture of her, Deborah, she is skin and bones. The outreached arm does not look like an arm with some muscle, you know, and it's just toned, you know, like Angela Bassett, right, who infamously or famously played Tina Turner and rocked that body as well as Tina did.
01:09:11.980She looks like a Holocaust victim, forgive me,0.74
01:09:15.720but I mean, it's like just barely any muscle.0.94
01:09:19.360Can we put the picture on the board, please?
01:09:21.140Of just a teeny tiny, like sinewy thing
01:09:24.460attached to a bone and the elbow is protruding.
01:10:02.380And she is so naturally beautiful, too.
01:10:05.260So it's I mean, I can only imagine what her life is like.
01:10:07.920And I imagine she's under a lot of pressure to be in the spotlight. So my issue with the glamorization of particular, I guess, a certain narrative around women's bodies or sexuality is when you see, especially older celebrities, and I'm not trying to shame them for their age, but it's like when they're trying to make a comeback, it's about their sex appeal.
01:10:29.380It's almost always they're half naked and there's a big splashy, you know, coverage of them with their bits out saying her comeback is here.
01:10:38.480Oh, she looks so young. She looks so great. She's usually had quite a bit of work done, which is fine.
01:10:42.820But my concern is for girls looking at this and saying, you know, this is a famous woman, very successful woman.1.00
01:10:48.780And yet all the all she has seemed to have all she seems to have to offer from the media's perspective is her sexuality.
01:10:56.340and it's not just that she's you know in out in the sunshine enjoying her day it's she's always1.00
01:11:01.400very barely dressed and again there's nothing wrong with women who want to show off their0.60
01:11:05.940bodies but there's something to me it's like the that her value is not that great unless she's0.64
01:11:11.340half naked and i can only imagine what it's like being a girl because growing up you know we had
01:11:15.820fashion magazines we had advertising and things like that but it wasn't to the extent that it is
01:11:19.780now where you're constantly bombarded you cannot open your phone without seeing this stuff if you're
01:11:23.720on social media and it's just such an extreme where in some cases oh my goodness when i think
01:11:28.700about i was in a clothing store a while ago and it's it's like don't ask me why i'm in a teen
01:11:33.040fashion store but anyway i was there and the advertising looked like quite literally soft
01:11:37.440core porn i was stunned it took me a second i said where am i you know and and for teenage girls
01:11:42.840who are emulating this i only understand in our culture especially that's so focused on
01:11:47.080pornographic imagery and you know making money selling your body using your sexuality taking
01:11:52.580all the money you can for men and making money however you can hustle all that stuff. And it's
01:11:58.120just, I don't feel that's an appropriate message for young girls. And I don't think it's good for
01:12:01.420their self-esteem either. No, I asked my team to pull this. Lily Phillips, she's one of the only
01:12:09.980fans. I don't, I don't think you can fairly call her a model. I mean, with all due respect, she's0.98
01:12:15.740a prostitute. I mean, she takes people's money and she has sex with them. So you tell me what1.00
01:12:19.820you'd call that. So I'm very interested in this woman. And there's a couple more who just like
01:12:26.380her who are setting these records for having sex with. In her case, it was first like 37 men in a
01:12:32.540day. And then it was a hundred men a day. And I think she did a thousand men in a day too.
01:23:02.040Don't, you know, make sure that the person who's listening to you, Alex Cooper, has a strong ego and a strong family life and can understand that actually doing that might diminish her in massive ways in her own mind before we even get to what it does in the man's mind.
01:23:17.340It's just so irresponsible to talk like that about a very intimate act, a couple of them, with a young audience, which is who's listening to her.
01:23:26.560I just find it so. So it's not just the Lily Phillips of the world who at least you have to like go find on OnlyFans and I guess pay for. It's this like this. Her podcast is very popular. She's also on Sirius XM, which is where we're airing right now. So she's been sort of mainstreamed. And I'm sure some of what she talks about is mainstream. But this is who she is. This is what she's advocating for young women.
01:23:51.520Yeah, I completely agree with you. And again, I don't know Alex Cooper, so I can't speak to her motivations. But what I will say from an evolutionary perspective is it's very common for women to compete with other women for male sexual partners, right? It's called intrasexual competition.
01:24:05.880so what i have observed some women do and it makes sense again from an evolutionary perspective
01:24:10.640is they will give women bad advice so that it will sabotage their ability to attract0.99
01:24:15.840a good partner and especially if a woman a woman has a partner it's called mate guarding so she'll
01:24:20.920give other women bad advice or make them denigrate themselves so that other men don't find them0.91
01:24:25.500attractive so that her potential partner won't leave her for someone else so if you're telling
01:24:30.760If you're telling women to go and basically sleep with men on the first day, do whatever a man wants, do whatever. I believe the term she used was whatever feels good to your body. And again, this is just my personal opinion, but I don't believe that's good advice because men have basically a dual mating strategy in terms of how they evaluate their partners.0.98
01:24:51.840so they are looking for either wife material or they are looking for short term and they may be
01:24:56.780looking for these two types of women simultaneously so in many cases they will have say a wife but
01:25:01.340they'll also this is obviously not morally good but they will be say cheating with shorter term0.92
01:25:05.380material on the side so they shorter term material women and i don't feel this way about women this0.83
01:25:09.700is just how men categorize women is uh you know women who tend to be more say promiscuous more0.90
01:25:14.620sexually available so they'll have sex with them short term but they definitely are not going to0.99
01:25:18.240invest in them um they're not going to ever give them a ring whereas long-term material women are
01:25:23.680the ones who they will invest in they see a future with this person they will have a family with this
01:25:27.940person because men do not are generally averse to promiscuting women because they see that as
01:25:33.240well if her sexual history involves very many partners with men say she didn't know very well
01:25:37.600there's a good chance that's going to continue if i wife her up and do i want to find out sometime1.00
01:25:41.920down the road that she's cheated on me with someone and i've been raising this child who i
01:25:45.220believe is my own, but it's actually been sired by another man. So that's where that's the
01:25:49.240psychology behind it. So if you're telling women to go out and sleep with however many men, I mean,0.52
01:25:55.080what's not good for the women, because they're going to get attached because women release more
01:25:58.600oxytocin, oxytocin during sex than men do. So women are going to get more attached after sex1.00
01:26:03.380than a man will. And the other thing is men, their bonding hormones go down to zero after0.91
01:26:07.860ejaculation. So they're really into you when you're having sex with you. But the minute they0.98
01:26:11.700have their orgasm it that basically shuts off so the sexual systems fascinating between the sexes0.63
01:26:17.300is very different and so as a woman she's going to long for him after he's not going to care about
01:26:22.560her and then what is that going to do to her long term if she keeps going through experiences like
01:26:26.580that she is going to eventually hate men i actually wrote about this recently for the globe and mail
01:26:30.200about how we see this we talk i mean media talks a lot about online radicalization among men and
01:26:36.280say the manosphere which i think is very important that we call that out but you see a similar trend
01:26:39.780happening among young women and so if they're going through the the motions of this where they're
01:26:43.820or these these experiences where they are constantly hooking up with guys and getting
01:26:46.880their heart broken each time and they don't understand why they start to blame men instead
01:26:50.220of saying hmm maybe this is not the best decision especially when you have the culture telling them
01:26:54.080oh this is you know sexual liberation this is good for you as a woman just do what do what you want
01:26:58.400to do and also it's very likely she's not even going to have an orgasm from a one-night stand
01:27:02.020because women have to be very relaxed they have to trust their partner in order to enjoy their0.78
01:27:06.220experience. And if it's a guy you don't know, it's not going to happen. Yeah, I love that.
01:27:13.280You're shorter term material. You're labeling yourself shorter term material. Is that really
01:27:17.940what you want? Is that your goal? All right. This is so fascinating, Debra. I love talking to you.
01:27:22.640Stand by. We're going to take a quick break. And then there's much, much more I have got to ask
01:27:25.720you about Brian Noem. Oh, by the way, just to reiterate, the name of the book is Sextinction,
01:27:32.180The Decline of Sex and the Future of Intimacy by Dr. Deborah Soh. When there are supply
01:27:39.500constraints on commodities, prices surge. You see it with the fuel prices happening right now,
01:27:44.960right? As a result of what's going on in the Strait of Hormuz. And you know what else is a
01:27:48.820limited commodity? Gold. They mine it out of the ground, and when it's gone, it's gone.
01:27:54.420Governments cannot just print more of it, and that is why everyone from central banks to savvy
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01:28:34.820rebate of up to $10,000. Here with me now, Dr. Debra Soh, S-O-H, sex neuroscientist and author
01:29:11.780like 3,000 cc's was the number that was thrown out
01:29:15.540is some huge number. And he, you know, he wants to see her in that, but he himself wants to wear
01:29:21.580that stuff. Oh, this is him. We're showing pictures of from the Daily Mail. He himself
01:29:26.600wants to pretend he's got the enormous boobs and wears the teeny tiny girl shorts and like wants1.00
01:29:32.480to be called, I think, was it like a slut? He wanted the women to call him like girl names1.00
01:29:38.740as if he's transitioning. You tell me what's going on there, Debra.0.97
01:29:43.660So I always want to start with the same caveat in that I don't know this gentleman, so I can't speak to his particular presentation. But just in terms of what this, say, research literature would suggest, definitely autogynophilia. So this is, and I believe that was your assessment last time as well. So autogynophilia in that some men find it sexually arousing to have the body of a woman.
01:30:06.900So I talked about this in my first book, The End of Gender, and this is one of the main motivators for transition nowadays.0.50
01:30:12.260So when you see someone who's born male, who, quote, identifies as female, in some cases has medically transitioned, but is extremely aggressive and is basically screaming at biological women who refuse to go along with this or who say things like, there are differences between you and me, and you should not be in our bathrooms, you should not be in our sports.
01:30:31.120um so that is one part of the puzzle in terms of eroticizing a woman's body but then the0.86
01:30:40.220and bimbo bimbofication is a part of that because that's a part of the expression of0.97
01:30:45.120autogynophilia it's basically like a very extreme form of a woman's body and no no woman wants to0.90
01:30:51.320actually look like that or very few women do i'll say and the women who do choose to look like that
01:30:55.020probably have some form of psychopathology in terms of why they'd want the rest to be so enormous0.88
01:30:59.160So that basically is the focus of their entire being, right?
01:31:02.740When you look at someone who looks like that,
01:31:04.680the first thing you're looking at is her breasts.1.00
01:31:06.140And most women, that's not what they want.1.00
01:31:29.160yeah, let's see. The New York Post reports that he allegedly once told the dominatrix he wanted
01:31:35.100to leave his wife and become the sex worker's trans bimbo slut, revealing his desire to go0.98
01:31:41.060by the name Crystal, of course. Yeah, that's a lot. So it speaks to, again, the enjoyment of1.00
01:31:49.440being degraded. And again, most healthy women do not desire to be called a slut. If you call a0.97
01:31:56.180woman a slut during sex should be very offended so the fact that there's an individual who's male0.95
01:32:00.840who is who is enjoying this speaks to again there's a weird interpretation of what i think1.00
01:32:08.160some men believe women want during sex because they are not women so they don't actually know
01:32:12.580what it's like to be a woman and they've not experienced sexual harassment or assault in
01:32:16.800their life so in some cases like they they think that being degraded is somehow a joyful thing
01:32:22.700But then the other piece I would say is there's an exhibitionistic aspect. So exhibitionism is typically someone who wants to expose themselves to an unsuspecting person or people, and they find it sexually arousing to see the other person's expression where they get shocked or very, you know, terrified or disgusted.
01:32:39.800so there seems to be an element of that here because even though it's not necessarily the
01:32:44.080genitals if there's still an aspect of wanting to shock people get attention and then they're
01:32:48.760also histrionic traits in that it's wanting to be provocative wanting to again get a lot of
01:32:53.620attention attention seeking using sexuality or or sexual language to get attention so again
01:32:58.980if this is someone who's being paid to talk to him in a sexual way then um there but there's
01:33:04.200There's something about the exhibitionistic aspect because there's a bunch of different reasons why people do this.
01:33:11.040Sometimes they're antisocial and they just get kicks out of people being really uncomfortable.
01:33:15.380But in some cases, they want to get caught.
01:33:17.300The joy is, again, a masochistic element of, especially if you're including your face in photos that are very sexual or potentially humiliating,
01:33:25.600there's an underlying desire, maybe at a subconscious level, of wanting to be found out.
01:33:30.820because nowadays people can send sexual images
01:44:45.760I mean, the worst house guest ever.1.00
01:44:48.340So it was a crazy story, but they were always his best witnesses.
01:44:53.040And they always said, never, never, never, never.
01:44:56.220And they talked about how when the molestation scandal would rear its head because it happened repeatedly over the years, they'd say to their children, God, anything didn't.
01:45:04.540And the children said, absolutely not.
01:45:16.880Don't let your child go away with an adult, not his or her parent, and sleep in their bed, which is what was happening.
01:45:23.740And now, after they saw the documentary, in quotes, because it really wasn't one, but it was two guys telling their alleged stories, leaving Neverland in 2019, one of the four now adult children, they're in their, I think, 30s now, said to the other siblings, he did do it to me.
01:45:42.320I was lying all those years when I said he didn't.
01:45:45.400And all three of the others said, me too.
01:45:48.560And so they've all now come out in a documentary that aired on 60 Minutes Australia in very powerful testimonials with great detail and said exactly what they claim Michael did to them.
01:46:03.700Now, I've got to put a big asterisk at the end of it because they are suing his estate.
01:46:09.000And his estate now is more flush with cash than it has been since he died, thanks to this movie.
01:49:24.520So disturbing and extremely odd that any parent before administering a corporal punishment against a child would make him strip naked and would oil him up.
01:49:35.560And to me, there's a very good possibility that Michael left out some portion of that abuse because there's no reason to oil your young child up and make him strip nude before you spank him or, in this disgusting case, whip him with the cord of an iron.
01:49:55.340That's, you know, just my speculation given what we're learning about Michael and we've suspected about Michael for years.
01:51:12.900My parents don't have a problem with this person touching me, even though it's in a non-sexual way.
01:51:16.620But so that when the touch progresses to becoming sexual, the child has a more difficult time differentiating and saying, wait a minute, this is not okay now.
01:51:23.860Keeping secrets is another way of grooming a child, making it more likely that they're going to keep secrets of, say, a sexual nature when the abuse begins.
01:51:34.380So my general advice to parents is always trust your gut, because I do think most parents have a sixth sense about this.
01:51:41.560But it's usually, especially with abusers, they tend to be members of the community who are in high regard, who tend to be well-liked.
01:51:48.620They tend to be viewed as, in some cases, family men.
01:51:51.760And not to say that women aren't abusers, but usually it's men who are the ones who are pedophilic.
01:51:56.140And in some cases, they will use their female partners to get access to children or to abuse children.
01:52:01.840Like there are some cases I've seen where in a daycare, women will take photos, inappropriate photos of children to send to their male partner.0.97
01:52:08.900the male partner will then put them on uh the internet for you know monetary reasons to uh
01:52:13.980yeah well we know what that's for so um just to basically trust your gut instinct and just no
01:52:20.300matter how well liked or how popular someone is or how good they seem with kids to be skeptical if
01:52:25.200if you are getting that sense but with pedophilia it is biological um so there is and not to say
01:52:30.960that all men who abuse children have pedophilia so there are some men who abuse sexually abuse kids
01:52:35.040who don't actually have a sexual interest in kids, they'll do it because they're antisocial or
01:52:39.160because they can't get access to an adult victim. But for men who actually prefer children over
01:52:44.860adult partners, that is pedophilia. It's children under the age of 11. And there are differences in
01:52:50.540the structure of their brain in terms of why they are attracted to kids. Because for most people,
01:52:58.440when you see a child, it brings up feelings of affection and nurturing. And it's not,
01:53:04.300obviously sexual excitement. So when that is the case, there is something that happened in utero
01:53:11.900or in terms of their neurodevelopment that has led them to erroneously find children sexually
01:53:17.500arousing. I just want to be very clear. I do not condone this idea that we should normalize
01:53:21.360pedophilia or de-stigmatize pedophilia or that we should have sympathy for pedophiles. I think
01:53:26.840the emphasis really should be on protecting children and speaking to the warning signs so
01:53:33.820that children can be protected and public safety is held. But in terms of many, many sexual abusers
01:53:40.400will claim that they were sexually abused or abused in childhood to try and evoke sympathy
01:53:44.440from, say, law enforcement, or if they are convicted. Wait a minute, are you telling me
01:53:49.220that's not true? Because I mean, like, you're kind of blowing my mind right now to say that it's
01:53:53.660biological. I always thought the way you become an abuser, a molester of children is you were0.66
01:54:00.740probably molested yourself. There's a chance that they were molested, but that's not necessarily
01:54:05.680why they are actually aroused by children. That might lead someone to abuse children in the future,
01:54:11.080sexually abused children, but they're not necessarily actually sexually interested in
01:54:15.840kids. So these men, if you test them using, say, philometry, which is what a test that's used to
01:54:20.900determine male sexual arouse and their preference in terms of their partners, pedophilic men will0.99
01:54:26.780actually prefer they'll respond their penis well we'll talk about penises again their penis will1.00
01:54:31.920respond more to this is really disgusting for your audience just to preface this but will respond1.00
01:54:37.080more to children than adults whereas there are some men who will abuse children but they will
01:54:41.120respond more to adults and this test is very difficult to fake it's considered the gold
01:54:44.560standard within um say forensics so um that the abuse obviously can lead to someone being
01:54:50.140antisocial being more likely to abuse kids for sexual reasons or otherwise but in terms of the
01:54:54.820actual preference it's more likely something that is embedded in the brain and as a result it can't
01:54:58.900be cured so i think the best approach in that case is either using medication say chemical castration
01:55:05.060or definitely monitoring someone and not making society have to go along with this and say that
01:55:10.500actually it's not such a big deal we should have sympathy and we should think about adding the p to
01:55:14.260the lgbtqia plus plus plus acronym wow this is so so dark but important the thing you said about how
01:55:24.020some of these guys will use their female partners for access to children reminded me of one of the
01:55:30.860most fascinating and disturbing episodes we've ever done. It was about Jared, the subway guy.
01:55:36.580And he's now been outed as a disgusting molester of children. And he wound up having his own0.93
01:55:43.080children too, which is also very dark. But he for years was in correspondence with this woman
01:55:50.480who unbeknownst to him was working with the FBI undercover to try to catch him. She got to know
01:55:58.000him socially. She was a radio host. He came on her program. They did something to promote heart
01:56:03.220health together, totally benign. And he made some inappropriate comment to her where she was like,
01:56:08.840what? And he was immediately on her radar. And she spent years thereafter trying to catch him,
01:56:17.060trying to get him to say some of these things on tape, and she did. She got him on tape,
01:56:22.120and she worked with the FBI. And of course, Jared would wind up behind bars. She came on this
01:56:27.300program. We'll find the program number and tell it to the audience in a minute. We actually just
01:56:32.480re-ran part of it on one of our Sunday super crime specials. But she talked about how
01:56:39.140Jared wanted access to her two children. And she, of course, was never going to allow this,
01:56:47.380but she pretended that she was, again, in order to get him on tape. And there was a disturbing
01:56:54.960piece of tape where she talked to him about the subject of talking inappropriately about sex or
01:57:01.200body parts with the children. And he wanted her desperately to do that because it would lower
01:57:09.060their defenses for when he got there and wanted to do that in a sexualized way. We have the tape.
01:57:14.960It's a quick piece of tape. Here it is. What kind of cute friends do your kids have? Oh,
01:57:19.360they have very cute friends. They know everything about sex. It's all they ever talk about in school.
01:57:25.440What I need you to do is to start talking about that kind of stuff in front of them.
01:57:29.040You know, you would just say, oh, tell Jared what you're going to talk about in school.
01:57:32.960Oh, Lord. What I need you to do is start talking about that stuff in front of them and tell them,
01:57:36.900Oh, you know, tell Jared what you talk about at school.
01:57:40.120I mean, it's so rare, Debra, you have it black and white on tape.
01:57:45.000That's an actual molester of children engaging in the grooming, trying to set up what he thought was his female friend to help him groom the children.
01:57:54.640And it just to me, that speaks to so much.
01:57:56.560It speaks to what our teachers are doing in having inappropriate secrets with our children, whether it's about their LGBTQ identity or how many genders they may be or potential transitions that the child may or may not be thinking about.
01:58:10.100The child, you know, the teacher wants to have a secret with a kid about all of it's so inappropriate and part of grooming.
01:58:17.140And it's right there, black and white, that that is grooming behavior.
01:58:22.460They it's policy in the New York City schools, the privates and now the public's, too, I believe, but definitely the privates for teachers not to tell the parents when a student says that he or she is gender confused or if they want to keep their so-called new identity private to have secrets about something as intimate as gender between a minor and a grown up.
01:58:44.400it's so inappropriate absolutely inappropriate and it does it's like a gateway conversation
01:58:48.760uh for parent for say teachers who do have more nefarious intentions to use that as a way to build
01:58:54.840a bond and trust in a child to then potentially turn those sexual conversations sexual so not
01:59:00.700just about now your gender identity or transition but then also potentially opportunities for them
01:59:06.000to abuse a child but also i would say with the interview um that you were you mentioned actually
01:59:10.560I remember listening to that episode when it came out initially, and that's a very common situation where you will see these predators because they're very cunning.
01:59:17.580They will, in some cases, target single mothers.
01:59:19.920And this is not to make single mothers out there feel paranoid, but just to be aware that in some cases, the men will want to date women and they'll offer, say, child care help or they'll offer support because they know that it's very difficult being a single mother.
01:59:34.100And raising a child on one's own is very challenging in some cases and time consuming.
01:59:38.620And so they'll offer to step in and do these tasks and help with that. But again, like I said, you have to be very skeptical of a man who wants to spend a lot of time raising a child who's not his own. Not to say that men can't be great stepfathers, but I'd say especially early on in your relationship with him and to be aware that some of these men do target single mothers because they know they're going to have an easier time getting access to vulnerable kids and having a lot of alone time with those kids.
02:00:01.940this is reminding me of the story i told this to jillian michaels when she came on one time
02:00:06.860we're talking about like the hazards of our jobs coming back to haunt us she's super fit and you
02:00:11.940know attuned to healthy lifestyles with her kids and i'm super dark on the news stories of the day
02:00:18.980and think that you know the shark's gonna get you in every ocean and there's gonna get molester
02:00:23.320behind every corner it's dark but there was one time where my son was going off on a school
02:00:28.460field trip and he was on the bus and all the other moms were like goodbye have a nice time
02:00:32.440and i was like look out for the molesters like he looks back i'm like it'll be someone you trust0.93
02:00:39.060megan's so weird megan's secretly packing mace in her kids backpacks
02:00:46.460it's dark but it is true like you point out they're going to be full of gifts like michael
02:00:56.180Jackson, if you listen to this family, the Casios, these kids now grown up, talk about how he
02:01:03.940lavished gifts upon them. And his whole home was a lair for, forgive the term, seducing children.
02:01:15.200And what I just mean is like grooming them, making them love you, meaning making them want to spend
02:01:19.740more time with you from the Neverland, you know, mini Disney he had out in front with all the rides
02:01:25.160to all the Peter Pan stuff to the two-floor arcade.