The Megyn Kelly Show - Alex Murdaugh Convictions OVERTURNED, with Vinnie Politan and Charlie Condon, and the TRUTH About the ＂Sex Recession,＂ with Dr. Debra Soh ｜ Ep. 1316

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00:00:30.720 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:42.420 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. Oh my goodness, we have news for you.

00:00:47.940 Second hour, we're going to be joined by Dr. Debra So. She's got a fascinating new book,

00:00:52.340 and we're going to get into some of the Christy Noem, Brian Noem issues.

00:00:57.140 But we have got to begin with stunning legal news.

00:01:00.940 This morning, by a unanimous vote, the South Carolina Supreme Court reversed the murder convictions of Alec Murdoch.

00:01:09.360 Mr. Murdoch is the high-profile South Carolina attorney accused of shooting and killing his wife Maggie, along with his son Paul, in June of 2021.

00:01:20.460 His six-week trial in 2023 captivated the nation.

00:01:24.560 We covered it gavel-to-gavel here.

00:01:27.140 And he was ultimately convicted of both murders.

00:01:30.500 As a reminder, here is the 911 call Alec Murdoch made when he claimed he discovered the bodies.

00:01:40.360 And this call was played in court.

00:01:41.860 Watch.

00:01:42.620 It's 4147 Moselle Road.

00:01:45.760 I've been up to it now.

00:01:47.020 It's bad.

00:01:47.900 Okay.

00:01:50.140 Okay.

00:01:50.800 And are they breathing?

00:01:52.740 No, ma'am.

00:01:53.880 Okay.

00:01:54.300 And you said it's your wife and your son?

00:01:57.140 My wife and my son.

00:02:00.020 Are they in a vehicle?

00:02:02.060 No, ma'am. They're on the ground out at my kennel.

00:02:11.780 Okay.

00:02:14.480 Okay. Is he breathing at all?

00:02:17.180 No, no.

00:02:20.120 Okay. Do you see anyone in the area?

00:02:25.160 No, ma'am.

00:02:27.140 ma'am. What color is your house on the outside? What color is your house on the

00:02:32.280 outside? It's white. You can't see it from the road. Okay. Is it a house or a

00:02:38.020 mobile home? It's a house. Okay. And what is your name? My name is Alex Murdoch.

00:02:48.120 Okay. And did you hear anything or did you come home and find them? I've been

00:02:52.980 gone. I just came back.

00:02:57.140 Okay, and was anyone else supposed to be at your house?

00:03:02.380 No ma'am. 0.96

00:03:03.380 Please hurry. 0.83

00:03:08.380 We're getting somebody out there too.

00:03:15.380 Oh, Murdoch, while he's continued to maintain his innocence, was found guilty and few that

00:03:32.800 watched the trial had much doubt about his guilt. However, every defendant in this country is

00:03:40.540 entitled to a fair trial and to due process unfettered by influence from any third party.

00:03:51.160 And that is the reason why we and other respected legal scholars have said for a while now that

00:03:58.820 though, for example, in my case, I believe he did this. He's entitled to a new trial. I said that

00:04:03.960 before. I said this on this program, not because I like Alec Murdoch, but because the court clerk

00:04:11.620 interfered with this jury in a way that could not possibly allow this verdict to stand.

00:04:18.740 And the South Carolina Supreme Court agrees they're going to give him another shot. They've

00:04:24.000 just reversed the denial of his motion for a new trial, meaning he's going to get his new trial

00:04:30.960 because the five justices on that court found, quote,

00:04:36.600 Colleton County Clerk of Court Rebecca Hill placed her fingers on the scales of justice,

00:04:41.760 thereby denying Murdoch his right to a fair trial by an impartial jury.

00:04:47.380 Impartial jury, one that hadn't been tampered with.

00:04:50.840 The court determined that the clerk, shown here, made improper comments to the jury

00:04:56.320 and that she even wanted to write a book about the case, which she did,

00:05:00.960 And that she believed a guilty verdict would help with sales.

00:05:05.480 So they not only knew that she made the improper comments, they knew her motivation for doing it.

00:05:10.480 And then they called in the jurors, not the South Carolina Supreme Court, but the lower court when this whole issue was raised by the defense because they got wind of what Becky had done, the court clerk.

00:05:22.100 And they had a whole hearing with the jurors and went through them one by one.

00:05:25.340 Did you hear her say anything?

00:05:26.780 What did you hear her say?

00:05:27.840 And the critical question, did it influence your verdict?

00:05:33.340 And notwithstanding the fact that one juror known as Juror Z said, yes, yes, it did.

00:05:40.400 The lower court still refused to give him a new trial.

00:05:46.260 Now the Supreme Court in South Carolina writing, quote,

00:05:51.020 Accordingly, we hold Murdoch's right to a fair trial by an impartial jury was violated.

00:05:56.240 and the post-trial court erred in denying his motion for a new trial.

00:06:01.960 Wow, so what does all this mean?

00:06:03.600 Joining me now for reaction, two people who know this case very well,

00:06:07.020 have previously spoken to us about it and talked about it a lot on their own respective shows.

00:06:11.980 Vinnie Politan, who is lead anchor for Court TV, as well as host of Vinnie Politan Investigates,

00:06:18.580 and Charlie Condon, former attorney general for the state of South Carolina and now a criminal defense attorney.

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00:07:51.380 Gentlemen, welcome back. What a stunning day.

00:07:54.040 Charlie, let me start with you as the former AG of this state.

00:07:57.240 And I know you covered this gavel to gavel on a great podcast.

00:08:00.120 I listened to you, dude, throughout the course of the trial.

00:08:02.940 Your reaction to this news?

00:08:05.580 Well, the decision was not surprising because the court telegraphed its feelings during the oral arguments.

00:08:13.600 But I am really surprised, though, that it was unanimous, all five, a procurium.

00:08:18.020 They obviously got together and decided it would be best to have an opinion from everybody, not a specific justice.

00:08:25.160 And I think given the notoriety of the case, they wanted the public to have confidence in this decision.

00:08:30.880 Yes. And I think the public will, Vinny. I mean, I people will explain to them what happened.

00:08:35.720 I think most people haven't been paying attention to Becky and her role in this.

00:08:40.400 But as soon as you hear what this court clerk did, you're shocked. It shocks the conscience.

00:08:45.540 No. And, you know, I was down there for the trial. So as an outsider, you know, going down to Colleton County, the feeling I got from the beginning, I was calling this a big trial in a small town. And I think the trial, the moment was just too big for Becky.

00:09:03.860 she didn't get like she the her eyes got really large and she knew everyone was coming in

00:09:09.300 i think at times her heart was in the right place but she was in over her head and i don't think

00:09:16.280 she understood her role in all of this with communicating with the jury like tell them when

00:09:22.660 lunch is okay tell tell them what time they can leave um tell them they you left your eggs in the

00:09:30.340 in the jury room but don't talk about the case don't talk about the defendant and that's what

00:09:37.220 she did so like to me she was very naive i don't think she understood it she was relatively newly

00:09:44.500 elected in the position and was in over her head and to me to you to charlie i think to all of us

00:09:50.820 it was obvious this couldn't stand i was the shocking part was when they brought the jurors

00:09:56.180 in, Megan, like you said, and they told their stories. And the judge that the retired judge

00:10:01.260 that they brought back in for that to make the decision, not the trial judge, said, ah, no

00:10:05.480 problem, because they didn't want to do it again. They didn't want to do the trial again.

00:10:12.140 Yes. And there's like this feeling that a lot of us have was like, we all know he did it. And

00:10:16.440 the court even said in denying his motion for a new trial, there was overwhelming evidence against

00:10:22.880 him in this case, which is a factor they say they're allowed to consider in whether to grant

00:10:27.420 or not grant a motion for a retrial. I will say, I mean, Charlie, I'd love to know your thoughts

00:10:31.720 because I heard you guys say nice things about this clerk, Becky, who prior to this had a good

00:10:37.340 reputation. But I will say just my own impression now, and of course, you've learned a lot more

00:10:41.380 about Becky since you covered all this, is not that she made a good faith mistake in not knowing

00:10:48.060 what just what she could and couldn't say to the jurors. I firmly believe that Becky Hill

00:10:52.860 is a pathological liar. She's lied repeatedly. She's lied under oath when caught here. She didn't 1.00

00:10:59.280 say, oh, my gosh, I misunderstood. She lied about what she'd done. The jurors contradicted her.

00:11:04.880 This court, Supreme Court of South Carolina said she has no credibility. We don't find her credible

00:11:09.760 at all. I think if you're making an honest mistake, you own it. You apologize for it.

00:11:14.320 She's she's lied at every turn. But your thoughts? Well, it's hard to argue against what you're saying, but I will say this about Becky.

00:11:20.980 I do think that Benny's right, that that that she really nice lady, former, I think, court reporter for for one of our judges. 0.52

00:11:29.880 And she small town lady. Well, I think one of the telling pieces of information I got about her after the trial was that she went on one of the I think that the Today Show maybe.

00:11:41.100 And she said that was the first time she had been on an airplane.

00:11:45.300 And I think what had happened was that the notoriety of the case, the media coming in there really went to her head. 0.94

00:11:52.280 I do think I hear what you're saying about her being a pathological liar.

00:11:55.200 But my sense of it is that a really nice person, when she got caught with her hand in the cookie jar, so to speak,

00:12:02.020 she went down the path that so many people do that are otherwise nice, good people and just kept on lying about it.

00:12:08.560 So I don't know if it's her character that is immensely flawed, but I do think it's fair to say that in that moment that she did not meet the moment.

00:12:17.240 And I want to say this, too, in reference to the to the judge that heard the post-trial motions.

00:12:22.940 I think it should be noted. It really wasn't just any judge. It was Jean Toll.

00:12:26.340 She was the former chief justice of our Supreme Court.

00:12:29.860 And one of the surprising aspects of of the opinion is the 27 page opinion.

00:12:34.640 I've read it. At the end, they commend her for her service and said it was a murky area of law.

00:12:41.320 And I do think that's correct. If you if you read all the South Carolina cases on jury tampering, they are all over the map.

00:12:48.720 You can you can argue both sides of that, I think, very, very effectively.

00:12:52.940 And what the Supreme Court has now done is they've given us a very clear roadmap here in South Carolina.

00:12:57.660 The Rimmer versus United States supplies, there's a three-step analysis you have to go through when there's this type of contact with the jurors.

00:13:06.280 And I do think, in fairness to former Chief Justice Toll, the cases that she was looking at, they were murky, and the Supreme Court recognized that.

00:13:15.640 Charlie, you're so sweet. You've always been nice and defensive of the local judges and officials involved in this case.

00:13:23.120 i am not sweet and less inclined to give these people the benefit of the doubt though i i thought 0.62

00:13:30.540 jean toll was impressive as she reviewed this case she had quite a quite a whopper handed to her 1.00

00:13:36.380 um as stepping in right after this case came to verdict to see whether the court clerk had 0.98

00:13:41.880 queered the verdict by messing with the jurors like such an extraordinary and rare thing

00:13:46.120 and i'm sure her inclination was having been around the block many times not to throw this

00:13:51.080 bone to the defendant because they're always trying to overseek the verdict or overturn the

00:13:54.560 verdicts. It's like, you know, we see that in every case. But this Becky, Vinny, here's just

00:13:59.040 one example. This is her splitting hairs, but she did lie repeatedly under oath saying she hadn't 0.89

00:14:03.560 done it. She didn't have these communications and it just wasn't true. Here's one where she

00:14:08.840 tried to get specific. This is where Dick Harputlian, former multiple time guest of many of

00:14:14.860 my shows at Fox News, a great lawyer, and he represented Alec Murdoch, cross-examined her

00:14:20.460 on what she did and did not say to the jurors.

00:14:22.840 Here it is in SOT 2.

00:14:24.480 Did you tell the jury not to be fooled by the evidence

00:14:26.640 presented by Mr. Murdoch's lawyers?

00:14:29.120 Mr. Harp-Hooley and I never

00:14:30.640 talked to the jurors about any of the evidence

00:14:32.600 in this case. If the answer would be yes or no, then you can explain.

00:14:35.080 Did you say that?

00:14:36.580 No. Okay. Did you ever tell

00:14:38.520 the jury to pay attention to

00:14:40.600 Mr. Murdoch's testimony?

00:14:44.840 To pay attention. Not

00:14:46.400 specifically to his testimony.

00:14:48.120 I did tell the jury to pay attention to what just generally in the hallway when I was speaking.

00:14:55.920 Not to him. No, just any witness. Right.

00:15:00.960 Got any other books in the works? No, sir. I mean, doesn't this make a good book?

00:15:08.740 And Vinny, in the Supreme Court decision that we just got, South Carolina Supreme Court,

00:15:13.880 They go through the testimony that they heard at that hearing, including from Jersey, a female who said that Hill told some collection of the jurors.

00:15:26.320 It was later determined three of them heard it to, quote, watch his actions.

00:15:29.880 This is the day that Murdoch was about to take the stand. Watch his actions. Watch him closely.

00:15:35.340 She added that Hill said more, but she couldn't remember it. Jersey explained Hill's statements did influence her to find him guilty.

00:15:42.640 and her affidavit jersey submitted,

00:15:47.260 gave even more detailed details on what Hill said.

00:15:50.680 Toward the end of the trial,

00:15:51.560 quoting here from her affidavit,

00:15:53.000 after the president's day break,

00:15:54.300 but before Mr. Murdoch testified,

00:15:56.500 the clerk of court, Rebecca Hill,

00:15:57.960 told the jury, quote,

00:15:58.900 not to be fooled by the evidence

00:16:01.360 presented by Murdoch's attorneys.

00:16:03.340 Not to be fooled,

00:16:04.980 which I understood to mean

00:16:06.100 that Murdoch would lie when he testifies.

00:16:08.700 She also instructed the jury

00:16:09.780 to watch him closely immediately

00:16:10.980 before he testified,

00:16:11.800 including to look at his actions and look at his movements, which I understood stood to mean

00:16:16.720 he was guilty. And then she testified that when the jury began its deliberations,

00:16:22.360 Becky told the jury, this shouldn't take us long. I mean, this is so bad. Then she said,

00:16:29.980 I did have questions about Murdoch's guilt, but I voted guilty because I felt pressured by the

00:16:33.660 other jurors, which would come back later. But all of that is contradicted. I mean, Becky

00:16:38.280 contradict all of that under oath and this juror had absolutely no reason to lie and it played

00:16:43.800 directly into today's decision yeah that that's problematically just the fact like from my

00:16:48.400 perspective looking you know covering our system of justice every day for decades now like a bright

00:16:54.520 line don't talk to the jury about anything other than just logistics we you know and you're in and

00:17:02.300 the problem here is like she's like part of the court and and her perception in that courtroom

00:17:06.700 was she was kind of like the judge's right hand you know gal or whatever in terms of running things

00:17:13.740 so what she says is going to have much more influence than if it was just some rando

00:17:18.860 outside or if she over or if someone overheard one of us from the media speaking really loudly

00:17:25.400 in front of the courthouse like i was doing like her influence is much greater because she's seen

00:17:30.800 is part of the system and closely tied to the judge. And you know how jurors are with judges.

00:17:38.000 Like, that's who they look to. Like, the judge is the one guiding them through the system.

00:17:41.900 And if this is someone who's kind of in with the judge and is telling us to do something, well,

00:17:45.660 I guess we should do it. Yeah, she had the air of authority of being connected to the judge.

00:17:52.700 And I mean, this is so egregious, Charlie. This shouldn't take long.

00:17:56.360 what defense lawyer wouldn't be setting his hair on fire when they heard that no they they had

00:18:03.080 they had uh they definitely had had that information but a couple of things not to

00:18:07.960 make too fine a point here most of the jurors i think 10 or 11 of them testified that there was

00:18:13.800 nothing that was said to them that was untoward that was the actual evidence at the evidentiary

00:18:17.900 hearing and i'm looking at juror z and i think justice told wrongly hung her hat on this but

00:18:23.920 Juror Z, follow me on this, she gave an affidavit in which she said, I was pressured by the other

00:18:28.900 jurors. She then testified that that was the more accurate statement of her feeling, meaning that

00:18:37.100 the pressure she got from other jurors was the reason that she voted the way she did,

00:18:41.880 not the improper conduct. So I think Justice Toll wrongly, again, I'm not here to criticize

00:18:47.660 the court's decision. I think overall it's correct. I mean, I do think that we now have

00:18:51.440 clear standards in South Carolina when you have this kind of conduct, even if it's going only to

00:18:55.160 one or two jurors, that's the end of it, unless the state can overcome that presumption. The court

00:19:00.040 also gave us another roadmap, though. Don't know if you recall that part of the discussion, but

00:19:04.680 there, in the opinion, there's a court rule that you cannot, and this is a federal court rule as

00:19:09.940 well, that you can't go into the, you can't have evidence about what the jurors discussed during

00:19:14.320 the deliberations. The court firmly ruled that, yes, when Justice Toll, former Chief Justice Toll

00:19:19.980 allowed that testimony in, that was a violation of the court rule. And therefore, in the future,

00:19:25.360 you can't go there with this. The state is really hamstrung. It can only go by other evidence to

00:19:31.040 overcome the presumption when there's this improper jury tampering. So now at least we've

00:19:36.080 got clear guidance. I guess the really sad part about all this, and I think this is really the

00:19:40.780 sad part of what's happened here, is because of really the improper conduct of this clerk,

00:19:47.260 having sat at the six-week trial and knowing the preparation that all of these lawyers had to go

00:19:54.340 into, you know, I hired the prosecutor who prosecuted the case. I knew the judge from

00:19:59.820 him being a former prosecutor. Dick Hart-Poodle, you mentioned, he ran against, he and I were

00:20:04.560 both, he was a Democratic nominee for Attorney General. I was a Republican nominee, and I won

00:20:09.180 that election. So all these people who were in court for six weeks every day from early in the

00:20:16.880 morning to late in the in the day all that is for not this defendant gets a new trial yeah and all

00:20:24.160 the and all the food truck vendors will point out how great the the lawyers were that the court

00:20:29.360 wanted us to know that they wrote uh uh okay hill shocking jury interference was accomplished

00:20:38.280 outside the presence and knowledge of the outstanding trial judge and superbly competent

00:20:42.400 and professional counsel for the state and the defense so that no one had any issue with what 0.99

00:20:49.140 the judge did or what the lawyers did it was the damn clerk vinnie have you ever seen it before 0.93

00:20:55.000 in all your years at court tv no never never ever ever and and in most of the cases we cover the 0.98

00:21:01.920 clerk doesn't even have any sort of role in the case there's a bailiff no the clerk gets no air

00:21:07.960 time no the bailiff will bring the the jury back and forth and that's it there's like one one person

00:21:13.720 usually here again it's about the moment you have to understand how small this town is megan when

00:21:20.200 when we all showed up they were afraid that we were going to starve because the restaurants in

00:21:26.540 that town are open a couple days a week some of them only at night so they brought they made sure

00:21:31.320 that there were food trucks for all of us they coordinate everything they bent over backwards

00:21:35.740 to welcome everyone into town but you have but the people there aren't used to that and and and

00:21:43.220 again i think uh charlie's right with what happened with becky she didn't meet the moment

00:21:48.840 it got out of control and it snowballed on her so everything that she did after the fact and

00:21:53.820 trying to like oh my goodness what am i doing here um makes her look you're wrong you guys

00:21:58.500 are both she wasn't gonna make money she wanted to sell her book yes she wanted to sell her book

00:22:04.380 If she knew a guilty verdict would be more helpful, that's all over the record.

00:22:09.540 That's not my speculation.

00:22:10.760 That's fact.

00:22:11.020 How much money can you make from a self-published book?

00:22:13.680 Come on.

00:22:14.880 Enough to do well in a town that only has restaurants open twice a week.

00:22:18.880 Have you read the book, Megan?

00:22:20.780 I did.

00:22:21.460 Have you read the book?

00:22:23.540 Well, we did read large portions of it when we covered her plagiarism.

00:22:28.660 Vinny, there's a pattern of dishonesty.

00:22:31.920 You stepped right in it.

00:22:33.060 I have to say. She plagiarized her book. Yeah, I have to say. I'm trying, Becky. I'm trying for

00:22:38.040 you, Becky. I'm trying my best. Go ahead, Charlie. She needs better counsel. Yeah, I do have to say

00:22:44.180 that I did read the book and I thought, boy, this book is really not that great, except that the

00:22:48.040 beginning is really good. And that's the part that Becky plagiarized. She plagiarized it. If

00:22:54.180 memory serves off of a journalist, right, with whom she had corresponded or whose stuff she had

00:22:59.040 It was really good.

00:23:00.540 Yeah, the first part was excellent.

00:23:01.960 So the court, we've talked about it a little, but I just want to get explicit on it because we have had this legal debate on this program when it came up.

00:23:12.300 And it was, what standard will the court use in deciding whether Becky's behavior is reversible error, you know, for the judge not to have considered it as a deal breaker?

00:23:23.620 And the question was whether they would, was it enough to allege and prove interference, which my understanding is that would do it at the federal court level.

00:23:36.000 If you can prove interference with a juror, you know, material interference, then you can get a reversal on a new trial.

00:23:43.980 Or did you also have to prove interference and prejudice, like, and it did affect the verdict, and you can prove that it affected the verdict.

00:23:53.860 And that was the higher South Carolina standard.

00:23:57.880 And amazingly, the defense team, in my view, they met it.

00:24:03.120 They got Juror Z to take the stand and say the following here in Sot 3.

00:24:10.340 Was your verdict influenced in any way by the communications of the clerk of court in this case?

00:24:19.700 Yes, ma'am.

00:24:20.540 And how was it influenced?

00:24:22.940 to me it felt like

00:24:29.660 she made it seem like he was already guilty did that affect your finding of guilty in this case

00:24:41.060 yes ma'am they had it right there like it was so open yeah except that the defense put

00:24:52.800 in her affidavit, which had this business about, hey, I was pressured by the other jurors. And then

00:25:00.620 the court relied upon that. Yeah, Charlie, let me just read that. Let me just read that,

00:25:03.660 and then I'll give it to you. This is from the Supreme Court's opinion, again, South Carolina

00:25:06.480 Supreme Court. Juror Z testified that when the jury began deliberations, Becky Hill told the

00:25:11.640 jury this shouldn't take us long. In addition to referencing Hill's statements, Juror Z averred in

00:25:16.220 her affidavit, quote, I had questions about Mr. Murdoch's guilt, but voted guilty because I felt

00:25:23.360 pressured by the other jurors. She doesn't say by Becky Hill, the clerk, by the other jurors.

00:25:30.500 And that's what the judge, Judge Toll, picked up on and said to juror Z, quote, I asked you

00:25:39.880 previously, was your verdict influenced in any way by communications from Becky Hill,

00:25:44.800 the clerk of court. You answered that question, yes. In light of what you said in the affidavit,

00:25:50.820 which is, I had questions about his guilt but voted guilty because I felt pressured by the

00:25:54.400 other jurors, is that answer that I just read a more accurate statement of how you felt?

00:26:02.600 And Juror Z answered yes. So Juror Z did tell Judge Toll, the greater influence on me was my

00:26:10.060 fellow jurors who guilted me into finding him guilty. And that was enough for Judge Toll to

00:26:17.460 say that this is not something we would reverse a guilty verdict on. And now, Charlie, you believe

00:26:24.940 the standard has been changed as a result of this opinion to sort of just say material interference

00:26:30.320 is enough to get a verdict overturned? Yes, the Supreme Court now has made it very clear,

00:26:35.620 And they acknowledge it's a murky, had been a murky area of the law.

00:26:39.100 It's no longer murky.

00:26:40.420 It's very clear. 0.58

00:26:41.440 Removerse of the United States is our standard.

00:26:43.820 So that if you have this kind of improper conduct, you get a new trial unless the government or the state can rebut it.

00:26:52.080 And so we've got a very clear roadmap here.

00:26:54.100 And this is a bit off topic, but I have to say this, Megan, the way you phrase these questions, it just shows that you have just really high level of intelligence.

00:27:02.800 I can remember that I can remember and really well well well articulated and I remember seeing

00:27:09.420 maybe a couple weeks ago something about the president saying something about you maybe not

00:27:13.100 being so bright I want to say for the record that you are extremely bright very talented

00:27:18.140 and uh the president is wrong about you uh for sure oh you are so sweet Charlie I I appreciate

00:27:26.100 you vouching that I am not in fact a low IQ nut job I I love it I didn't see it coming but I

00:27:32.780 love it. My crack team has reminded me on our discussion about your best friend, Becky, Vinny,

00:27:41.720 that the person she plagiarized, I knew it was a journalist, was BBC journalist Holly Hondrich.

00:27:48.700 And the plagiarism stemmed from emails from this reporter who accidentally sent them to Hill.

00:27:56.600 They were discovered after a trove of Becky Hill's emails were made public in response to a FOIA

00:28:01.400 request. The email showed that reporter Holly Hondrich sent Hill two drafts of an article she

00:28:07.980 was writing about the double murder trial. And Hondrich had intended to send the drafts to her

00:28:13.100 editor, also named Rebecca. When she discovered the mistake, she asked Hill to delete her emails.

00:28:19.240 Hill said she would. Instead, months later, Hondrich's words appeared right at the beginning,

00:28:25.840 by the way of hill's book now your sweet little cupcake vinnie politan has got a history

00:28:33.400 of dishonest behavior again in over her head she wanted to write a book she didn't know how to write 1.00

00:28:39.400 a book she's like she committed to the book and now i've got to put words on paper i thought it'd

00:28:43.840 be a little bit easier oh i hear some words where did i let me put them on my muse my muse from the

00:28:50.640 BBC. Okay, I want to keep going because there is a real question now about what's going to happen.

00:28:57.860 Vinny, what's going to happen now? Oh, I'm making my reservations already. Unless they get a change

00:29:04.260 of venue. You are, right? Yeah, of course. See, this is the great thing, right? Because I believe,

00:29:09.900 you know, I listened to the evidence. I saw the evidence. I believe he did it. I think it was

00:29:13.180 obvious. Once we saw the whole case, I thought it was put together very well. The defense did their

00:29:18.180 best but like it is what it is the facts are what they are um at the end of the day when a criminal

00:29:24.740 defendant wins an appeal they win the right to be convicted again on court tv so i think that's i

00:29:33.420 think that's where we're headed in this one although it does seem there'll be a another

00:29:38.040 slight change in some of the evidence i think prosecutors will have to pull back a little bit

00:29:42.460 on in the way that they present some of the financial crime evidence in the case that was

00:29:47.240 another big point by the defense in their appeal so i think they may have to rein that in a little

00:29:51.620 bit but at the end of the day it's it's the there's such great evidence in this case and you

00:29:58.880 have the defendant himself i think the the the only outstanding question will be will he testify again

00:30:05.100 yeah that's a good question wait before i get you because i know charlie you're an expert on all

00:30:11.520 this and what's likely to happen or what is going to happen next and i want to hear that but before

00:30:15.300 that, I wanted to make an additional point on Becky. One of the issues, sorry, but one of the

00:30:22.140 issues about what she did, okay, so she spoke to the jurors directly the day that Alex Murdoch

00:30:29.460 testified, and apparently the day that they got the case as well. You know, this shouldn't take

00:30:35.960 long, the deliberations. But there was also the problem of what Becky Hill did or did not do 1.00

00:30:43.200 with respect to the so-called egg juror.

00:30:46.020 Vinny made a joke earlier about, you know,

00:30:48.020 the clerk of court maybe tells you

00:30:49.740 you have your eggs back in the jury room.

00:30:51.160 That was an on-point joke.

00:30:52.480 And he was referencing something

00:30:53.820 that it really did happen in the case

00:30:55.260 where one juror got disqualified

00:30:58.140 the day of the deliberations,

00:31:00.320 the day of the closing arguments into deliberations.

00:31:02.980 And the reason she got disqualified was

00:31:04.980 there'd been a question about

00:31:06.760 whether she'd been discussing the case

00:31:08.200 outside of the courthouse.

00:31:09.400 And she shouldn't have been discussing the case at all

00:31:11.980 at this point because they hadn't even gone into deliberations. And there was a possibility that her

00:31:16.780 disgruntled ex-husband had maybe said something online about this, et cetera. Well, I did not,

00:31:25.740 I did, I have followed this case closely, but apparently not that closely because I missed 0.70

00:31:30.460 what, what Becky Hill allegedly said to the egg juror who did get dismissed and replaced by an

00:31:39.980 alternate the day that they that she was egg juror found herself in trouble and had to go see the

00:31:46.460 judge because this stuff had come out did she talk about the case out of school she and good old

00:31:52.400 becky had a discussion and testimony was submitted about what that discussion was and here is a bit

00:32:02.640 of that from the proceeding before judge toll so she called or she spoke to miss hill correct

00:32:10.440 Yes.

00:32:10.840 And Ms. Hill told her, according to the egg juror, the Murdochs probably got to him.

00:32:16.540 You agree that's what she said in her affidavit?

00:32:19.040 That's what she said in her affidavit.

00:32:20.220 Okay.

00:32:20.920 And then Ms. Hill asked her if she was leaning one way or the other.

00:32:26.520 And the egg juror said, Mr. Waters, closing was good, but I still have questions.

00:32:35.680 And she said, what kind of questions?

00:32:37.540 And she told Ms. Hill she had questions about the guns.

00:32:40.600 I suppose couldn't find them or they were too used.

00:32:44.200 And then Ms. Hill asked her, what makes you think he's innocent?

00:32:47.380 And she said, the video at the kennels.

00:32:51.660 And then she said, Ms. Hill said, everything the defendant has said has been lies.

00:32:59.020 And you should forget about the guns.

00:33:01.400 They will never be seen again.

00:33:03.100 Are those fleeting comments or are those egregious?

00:33:07.540 Your Honor, those would be hard-pressed to defend.

00:33:10.280 That would be much different from what I'm arguing this record.

00:33:13.240 And then Ms. Hill told her that the full person should just go in and ask for a raise of hands,

00:33:18.400 and this will be over and done with, and everybody needs to be on the same page.

00:33:23.100 So I'm struggling, number one, with why the egg juror wasn't allowed to testify,

00:33:29.080 because that was directly impeaching of Ms. Hill's testimony that she said nothing.

00:33:35.960 That's amazing.

00:33:36.780 So clarifying, obviously, that was not Judge Toll, who's female. That was one of the judges on the South Carolina Supreme Court who's wondering why at the Judge Toll hearing this egg juror, dismissed juror testimony was not allowed because it's a smoking gun on the character of Becky Hill.

00:33:55.900 I mean, honestly, Charlie, have you ever heard of something so egregious?

00:33:59.540 Well, you're doing a very good job of prosecuting Becky, I must say. It's getting harder and harder to defend her. But I still stick with my earlier comments relative to, I do think that the, Benny's right, if you'd been there, I mean, Walterboro, it's the front porch of Lowcountry, very small town, really nice people.

00:34:18.180 it's a the county is population wise small and so this massive international media

00:34:25.600 just comes into walterboro and i do think it went to becky's head and again not to defend

00:34:31.900 her at all what she did with this with the with the jurors but i just think deep down inside i

00:34:38.060 think basically she's not a morally corrupt horrible woman i think she's got some really

00:34:44.420 good quality really deep but again it's very clear she did not meet the moment here in this trial

00:34:48.680 very clear she did not no no she did not meet the moment but so that all of that is what wound up

00:34:56.960 getting this ruling uh from the high court and uh and the question about what happens next charlie

00:35:04.680 so yeah yeah because he already was convicted on all these financial crimes which will keep him

00:35:09.800 in jail for the rest of his life alone, without the murder convictions. So what does the state

00:35:14.880 do now? You're right. 40 years, federal court sentence, 27 years, state court sentence. They're

00:35:21.140 running concurrently. But the news today is that all of the candidates running for attorney general

00:35:26.680 have said that they would re-prosecute this defendant. They would take office in January.

00:35:34.060 The current AG, Alan Wilson, said he would re-prosecute. Of course, he won't be AG when

00:35:38.880 uh, when, when the case would come up. So it looks like, and also my understanding is the

00:35:43.220 democratic nominee, uh, says the same thing. So everybody's saying they're going to re-prosecute.

00:35:48.080 So I guess we'll see you soon, I guess, in Walterboro, right, Vinny? Yeah, I'll be there

00:35:53.600 for sure. For sure. Is there any chance that the, that they strike a deal? Like,

00:35:58.540 is there a deal to be made now? I don't, I don't think he'll ever admit to murdering

00:36:04.540 his wife and his son. He'll never do that. Even if it's concurrent, I don't think he does that.

00:36:11.100 Yeah, I agree. And Vinny, wouldn't he also want the time out of prison, sitting in the courthouse,

00:36:17.280 getting nicer meals, seeing his family? That's a much more pleasant experience than sitting

00:36:22.320 in this correctional facility he's now in, which is reportedly not so nice.

00:36:27.720 A good point. It really would be. I am sort of curious of economics here because it's my

00:36:32.140 understanding that the attorneys were retained initially, and that you got the sense as the

00:36:37.160 trial wore on that their budget maybe got very low. I don't think this defendant has any resources

00:36:43.900 now that I'm aware of. Everything's been taken, I think, through the civil processes. So my

00:36:49.400 expectation would be that his current attorneys would stick with him really pro bono. We'll see

00:36:54.320 what happens, but I do think we're looking for a rematch. They were asked at a presser, I think,

00:36:59.480 after one of these court proceedings,

00:37:01.480 would you represent him if he gets a new trial?

00:37:05.160 And they said, that's up to Alec Murdoch,

00:37:07.380 but yes, we would.

00:37:08.680 So the question wasn't then asked,

00:37:10.520 what if he can't pay you anything?

00:37:12.340 And it's one of those things

00:37:13.340 for these well-known defense lawyers.

00:37:15.840 Do you do it for the PR?

00:37:17.860 Because you're in the news every day for six weeks,

00:37:20.260 it makes you a national star.

00:37:21.540 It did for these guys too.

00:37:24.040 Or not, because you need to pay your bills

00:37:26.660 just like anybody else.

00:37:27.620 And I mean, I suppose they could do it out of the loyalty to Alec, too.

00:37:30.740 Go ahead.

00:37:31.040 Well, I think when you talk about public relations, there's only a downside if they don't do it.

00:37:36.980 Other criminal defendants might think a little less of hiring these guys if they're not loyal to the end, even if they're not getting paid, because they're going to presume that they got paid a lot the first time around.

00:37:48.100 And I don't know what the numbers are.

00:37:50.560 I have no idea.

00:37:51.680 But at the end of the day, I think there's only a downside to that if they don't stay on.

00:37:57.620 And by the way, there'll be a line of attorneys who will do it for free, who will jump in the case.

00:38:02.640 So you may see a situation where maybe someone jumps in to help them a little bit in all of this, just so they can continue the rest of their practice and continue to generate income.

00:38:14.700 That's a good point.

00:38:15.600 I mean, what about a change of venue, Charlie?

00:38:18.040 Because now the whole world, but certainly all of South Carolina knows, he was convicted for these crimes.

00:38:26.620 So if you wanted to change the venue, where on earth could you go?

00:38:30.500 You'd have to go, I don't know, to some place without television or any electronics.

00:38:35.180 What do you think Harpootlian does to try to get his client a fair trial this time around?

00:38:42.360 I would think we've got 46 counties in South Carolina.

00:38:45.620 I can't imagine one county that doesn't have the same amount of jurors saying what they would say about, I've already made up my mind.

00:38:54.880 That is the standard.

00:38:55.600 It's not that you've heard publicity. It's that, can you put that aside and be fair and listen only to the evidence in the courtroom? So my expectation would be they would start in Colleton to see how it goes. And if they can't get a panel there, then to ask for a change of venue. But again, that's a strategic decision. I did get the sense, you know, Alec has a lot of local family there. I did get the sense they sort of like being there. They like being in Colleton. So my expectation, we would see a retrial in Colleton.

00:39:23.720 And what do you think, sticking with you on this, Charlie, because this is a particular question about the procedure, what will change in the second trial? Because, you know, it's interesting to me that juror Z said the reason she was thinking Alec Murdoch was not guilty was the tape at the kennels, because that's the thing for most of the rest of us that sealed his fate as guilty.

00:39:46.500 He said he, I think the listening audience knows what happened in this case, but I guess I should have given a couple lines.

00:39:53.200 Long story short, his son Paul was involved in this boating accident in which Paul got very drunk and ran the boat into a piling, killing Mallory Beach, a teenage friend of his.

00:40:03.220 The parents filed a lawsuit against the Murdochs.

00:40:06.360 It would wind up spiraling to a place where Alec was going to have to make a bunch of financial disclosures and was going to have to sit for depositions.

00:40:13.140 And the family finances were going to come under a microscope.

00:40:16.500 He panicked during all of this, and I'm really short-forming here, but wound up killing that son who had driven the boat, Paul, along with his mother, Paul's mother, and Alec's wife.

00:40:30.820 And this was done as a sympathy ploy because Alec's law firm was also looking, zeroing in on Alec in the context of all this pressure on him.

00:40:39.580 And he was always getting examined by his law firm, which we now know he had embezzled from.

00:40:42.780 He was getting examined by the community and potentially by these good lawyers representing Mallory Beach's family about finances, which would have put his financial schemes into the open.

00:40:52.800 And the theory of the prosecution was he did this.

00:40:55.180 He murdered his own family as a sympathy ploy.

00:40:57.940 And it worked because his law firm backed off on its requests for documents from him.

00:41:03.260 They felt so bad about what had happened.

00:41:05.040 And even the lawyers representing the Beach family, you know, they felt bad.

00:41:08.240 They were kind of going to leave him alone potentially because they just felt like, oh, this is awful.

00:41:11.780 Meanwhile, that's why he did it.

00:41:14.360 So back to what could happen at the next trial.

00:41:18.340 Because what really, I think, helped do him in was he testified, even though his family was killed down at those kennels that night by two different guns, and there were no eyewitnesses, that he was not there.

00:41:31.480 He hadn't gone to the kennels that night.

00:41:32.780 He had been over with his ailing mother who had dementia and was dying.

00:41:36.880 And Paul, before he was killed,

00:41:40.840 had taken out his phone and taken a video

00:41:42.920 of dogs who were at the kennels.

00:41:45.380 And Alex's voice can clearly be heard in the background.

00:41:48.400 It's very eerie.

00:41:49.660 His son, in that way, convicted his own father.

00:41:54.740 His son and that videotape

00:41:57.480 were the linchpin to this whole thing.

00:41:59.920 It's as if moments before his death,

00:42:03.180 he pointed the finger at his murderer

00:42:05.840 Actually, we've got the soundbite.

00:42:07.000 We'll play it.

00:42:07.840 Here it is.

00:42:08.860 Hey, he's got a bird in his mouth.

00:42:11.140 Bubba.

00:42:13.120 Hey, Bubba.

00:42:16.040 It's a guinea.

00:42:17.540 It's a chicken.

00:42:20.240 Come here, Bubba.

00:42:21.140 Come here, Bubba.

00:42:22.220 Come here, Bubba.

00:42:22.300 Come here, Bubba.

00:42:22.320 Come here, Bubba.

00:42:22.880 Come here, Bubba.

00:42:25.600 That put the lie to Alex's claim that he had not been at the kennels.

00:42:31.780 it's really what forced him to take the stand and try to explain to the jury why he lied and just

00:42:38.720 sort of went on about how he'd been on drugs and he panicked and whatever nobody believed him

00:42:43.680 and so the question and now knowing all about the tape team murdoch knowing it's absolutely

00:42:50.940 coming in knowing how the prosecution will use it how bad it makes him look how he cannot get

00:42:58.480 rid of it with with his weird explanations as the witness he thought he would be and then there's

00:43:04.960 the witness he actually was what do they do differently because they they will make different

00:43:10.100 better decisions these are very good lawyers yeah that's an excellent summary and you know i've

00:43:16.540 thought about this a good bit actually after the oral arguments at the supreme court where they

00:43:20.660 telegraphed i think the the decision we have today and i've prosecuted a a number of cases

00:43:26.020 that came back and we had retrials when I was the prosecutor here in the Charleston area.

00:43:30.820 And to my experience, a retrial typically benefits the state because you know what the defense is

00:43:36.400 doing. I think in this case, though, it's completely different. I think the defense

00:43:40.220 has a real advantage because the way that trial went down, there was all sorts of technical

00:43:45.900 information that came in. It came in rather rapidly that really provided all sorts of

00:43:51.760 circumstantial evidence that supported the state's theory. And I think they have a real opportunity

00:43:56.100 now to reconstruct how they did things and do things quite differently. So I think it's going

00:44:00.640 to, and also, I do think the defendant will not testify next time. My understanding is he wanted

00:44:04.760 to testify. However, maybe they can put into evidence, since it was under oath anyway,

00:44:09.400 and sworn testimony, subject cross-examination, maybe they can put that in anyway. But I think

00:44:13.960 the defense is going to have a real advantage here. And I think the state will not have as easy

00:44:17.680 time. There's a Himalayan mountain of evidence against him. But I do think that they're going

00:44:22.620 to be put to the test a bit more than they were in the first trial. Well, it's an interesting

00:44:27.340 thing to consider, Vinny, because you mentioned the technical discoveries that were done late

00:44:33.580 that got into evidence. For example, all the evidence around the car, Alex's car. And my

00:44:38.300 God, your car is completely spying on you. If you have anything that was purchased within the last

00:44:42.140 couple of years, it can tell them everything. Like, good luck trying to get away with,

00:44:45.700 I wasn't speeding or I don't look at my phone while I'm driving between your phone and your

00:44:50.400 car. They know everything you've done. It's good incentive not to text and drive. But the reason

00:44:58.600 the financial crimes were admitted, Vinny, into evidence is because the defense opened the door.

00:45:05.480 They opened the door. Right. That was one of the ones that that they've regretted, I think,

00:45:10.740 the defense and so the defense has the opportunity not to make these same mistakes um i think they

00:45:16.220 opened the door didn't they open the door on the the guy who got the guy who shot alec on the side

00:45:23.260 of the road the defense made a couple of blunders during the course of the trial yeah cousin eddie

00:45:28.560 that opened the door to testimony that was very bad for alec and they will not be doing that this

00:45:32.920 time around so i mean notwithstanding the fact that everybody listening to this trial in the

00:45:36.940 jury box will know he was already convicted. The trial in front of them that they're supposed to

00:45:43.460 make their decision off of is probably going to be more favorable to the defendant.

00:45:47.920 Yeah, I agree. I agree. And the analysis has been perfect. But I think the biggest factor in all of

00:45:53.760 this and what's going to be the difference between trial one and trial two is I think the defense is 0.93

00:45:59.180 going to double down and try to find 12 egg ladies to be in that jury box. And I think there's a 0.99

00:46:06.540 better chance to find people like that this trial obviously the case was big everybody kind of knew

00:46:11.880 about it there were a couple of documentaries it was all the buzz uh down in the low country

00:46:17.140 but after the trial itself which became bigger than big everybody knew almost every detail about

00:46:26.560 it so now when you're looking for the jury the prospective jurors are going to know the story

00:46:32.160 and now who's going to be left in the box only those people who have who who haven't made up

00:46:40.280 their minds who are these people oh boy like who are these people these are the people who were

00:46:46.520 down in orlando florida when i was covering another trial involving a mother whose daughter's

00:46:52.720 body was in the trunk of her car for weeks that's who was left yeah like because of how big that

00:46:59.560 story was before the trial that the 12 that ended up in the jury box were the 12 that oh yeah well

00:47:06.280 i don't know maybe maybe she didn't do it and that's that's i think the defense's best shot

00:47:10.960 here is that you have 12 egg ladies um who despite everything that we've seen and heard

00:47:16.420 through the documentaries and now the actual trial itself are still saying i don't know

00:47:23.720 Maybe he didn't do it.

00:47:25.780 You know, there's a weird dynamic now that's going to be at play, Charlie, that wasn't in the first trial as much, I guess. 0.73

00:47:32.500 Which is, I don't know, especially women, I hate to say it, they may have a bit of a savior complex here.

00:47:39.740 Like, I can swoop in, I can relieve him of this terrible fate. 0.70

00:47:46.380 They can't, really, because of the financial convictions.

00:47:48.920 But, okay, maybe they're not going to hear about that.

00:47:50.940 They're not going to be told anything about your verdict doesn't matter.

00:47:54.200 He's still going to sit in prison.

00:47:57.100 We talked yesterday on this program for an hour and a half about the Michael Jackson movie and what the evidence is against him.

00:48:03.960 You know, was he a child molester or wasn't he?

00:48:06.480 And I do think there's a huge faction of the population that just doesn't want to believe it.

00:48:12.080 They admired him for Michael Jackson.

00:48:15.180 We know why they admired him and they just won't believe it.

00:48:17.340 And for Alec Murdoch, I think there'll be there could be a similar dynamic where he was very well known.

00:48:23.100 He had a lot of swagger. He was respected in the community.

00:48:26.900 Now they're going to know potentially probably that he was wrongfully sent to jail.

00:48:31.960 And it's like, OK, I have the chance to be the savior.

00:48:35.840 That's a good point. I remember speaking with Dick Hart Putley during the trial.

00:48:39.400 And he said they focus grouped the the case.

00:48:42.220 And by far, the strongest reaction they got from people who would be favoring and not guilty would be how could a father kill his beloved son and his beloved wife?

00:48:53.820 And so you're right. Both of you have made very astute comments.

00:48:57.840 And to Vinny, to your point and thinking about it, you make a really good point.

00:49:01.600 if you haven't made up your mind based upon watching the trial with all the evidence out

00:49:06.800 there that he's guilty if you're honest when you come into the jury panel you're going to tell the

00:49:13.160 judge i've already made up my mind and you know i think that's going to be probably a lot of people

00:49:17.160 if not most so the ones that are left if you haven't made up your mind based upon what's out

00:49:21.700 there you may be very much a defense prone juror so the state may indeed have a very hard time

00:49:29.300 with convicting this defendant again.

00:49:32.060 We'll just have to see,

00:49:32.940 despite the fact there's so much evidence.

00:49:36.000 Charlie, do we know what is going on

00:49:37.960 with Buster Murdoch,

00:49:39.400 who is the remaining surviving son,

00:49:43.280 who is a couple of years older than Paul

00:49:44.920 and had gone to law school,

00:49:46.580 but been kicked out, right?

00:49:48.980 The last I heard for academic dishonesty.

00:49:53.760 Well, this is a bit of hearsay I'm repeating,

00:49:56.280 but I think it's a reliable source.

00:49:57.820 Someone told me fairly recently

00:49:59.100 that he was in the in the Buford area selling clothing. And I believe he's happily married.

00:50:06.120 Oh, wow. Oh, well, I mean, the documentaries about the family do show him with a

00:50:10.140 loyal partner who seemed to be very supportive of him. I'm going to check myself on the academic

00:50:14.120 dishonesty standby. But go ahead. Yeah. So I can verify that because we had the video we showed it.

00:50:20.820 He's selling clothing. He's trying to just live his life. He's married to I think his wife's name

00:50:26.040 is Brooklyn um she's an attorney and you know in all of this he kind of gets lost in the shuffle

00:50:32.160 a little bit right like because he he's got the red hair he he reminds you of of Alec to a certain

00:50:38.360 extent but like he is a victim of all of this like he lost his mother he lost his brother I don't

00:50:45.560 know exactly what he believes about his father but at the end of the day Buster is a victim and

00:50:51.180 And, you know, yeah, his last name is Murdoch, but I feel bad for him.

00:50:55.440 I feel bad for him.

00:50:56.640 Like, you don't have your mom anymore. 0.91

00:50:58.000 Some of these documentaries have him convicted of murdering this other resident of the community who was gay. 0.92

00:51:06.220 And they speculated that Buster was gay.

00:51:08.480 And they've basically convicted Buster of a murder that he's had absolutely no charges for.

00:51:13.360 I mean, it's really he's been through the ringer.

00:51:15.980 This guy, he was indeed forced out of law school due to plagiarism.

00:51:19.840 Um, guys, thank you. Such a good discussion. Looking forward to part two. We'll have you on

00:51:25.880 plenty then. All the best to you both. Thank you. Thank you. Crazy, crazy story. Missed calls and

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00:52:41.360 Now we're turning to an alarming trend in our culture. Despite our hyper-sexualized 0.64

00:52:46.440 society, people are having less sex and reporting less intimacy and connection than ever before.

00:52:53.520 At the same time, fewer young people are getting married, starting families,

00:52:57.580 or forming long-term relationships. So what's behind the decline in sex and intimacy?

00:53:05.100 Our next guest is an expert on this, and we are glad to have her back. Dr. Deborah So is a sex

00:53:10.840 neuroscience, easy for me to say, sex neuroscientist and author of the book,

00:53:16.920 Sextinction, The Decline of Sex and the Future of Intimacy. Debra, welcome back. It's great to 0.93

00:53:22.920 have you. Hi, Megan. It's so wonderful to see you again. Oh yeah. It's a, you too. I mean,

00:53:27.420 you were one of our first guests on this show when we were just audio only with your, your first

00:53:33.060 book. And now it's great to have you back. And everybody should check that out too. It's called

00:53:38.020 the end of gender. So you hear about this all the time, that the young people, they're not getting

00:53:43.800 their driver's licenses, they're not really drinking, and they're not having sex. And while

00:53:49.160 I can understand those first two, there's Uber, people are living with their parents longer. 1.00

00:53:56.200 I don't know, drinking with the Maha world taking over is no longer favored. And by the way, 1.00

00:54:02.540 some of these kids have gummies and things like that they use instead, but no sex? So what did

00:54:07.840 you find? What is the answer? So yeah, I was similarly perplexed by this question because I

00:54:12.980 thought, yes, Gen Z on average, they are reaching typical life milestones at a delayed pace. But you

00:54:19.400 would think if they are, you know, not driving and not going crazy and partying, what are they

00:54:24.660 doing with their spare time instead? So with sex extinction, I wanted to determine, is the sex

00:54:29.300 recession real? And I do believe it is because I was quite skeptical before. The first study

00:54:33.860 showing that there was this overall decline in sex was in 2016 and it found that americans were

00:54:39.080 having less sex than ever before and this was especially pronounced in millennials and this

00:54:43.060 was expected to continue on for gen z and so now what we see is globally there is this trend of

00:54:47.880 people it doesn't matter if they are married or single where they live in the world whether it's

00:54:52.040 east or the west all developed countries all age cohorts um they are having less sex people are

00:54:57.340 having less sex than ever before but this is especially pronounced among millennials and gen

00:55:01.480 and particularly men. So the statistic I keep seeing is one in three men and one in five women

00:55:06.720 have not had sex in the past year. And sextinction is basically a science-based approach to trying to

00:55:12.360 understand why are we so disconnected? What is taking the place of sex? Especially regarding

00:55:16.800 what we know nowadays with screens and smartphones. I wrote the book as a guide for parents to help

00:55:22.060 them understand what to anticipate in terms of child development, how to avoid making the same

00:55:26.840 mistakes potentially as we made with smartphones and social media. But I would say whether you're

00:55:31.040 married or single or dating or not interested in any of any of the above, you'll get something out

00:55:36.740 of the book because I wrote it from that perspective. I do think this is something

00:55:39.320 that affects everybody, even married people. Well, I know you you write about one of the

00:55:45.020 problems because it seems to be multifaceted, the answer. And one of the problems is that as

00:55:50.820 women's financial means rise, so do their demands of their partners. And unfortunately, 0.98

00:55:59.800 that's happening at the same time that we are dumping on men, not allowing them into college,

00:56:05.280 not allowing them into the workforce because they're men and we don't, we no longer favor

00:56:09.180 them. And God forbid there are white men or for that matter, an Asian man, they're not going to 0.94

00:56:13.200 get into a good college. You know, like all these societal factors are conspiring to keep them down 0.98

00:56:17.820 and prop up the women. But as the women get propped up socioeconomically, they want someone 1.00

00:56:23.740 who's at least equal and they would actually prefer higher status to them. And yet our societies are 1.00

00:56:29.780 not allowing that. Right. So women are hypergamous. This means that they prefer partners who are at

00:56:34.620 the same level of success as they are or who are more successful than they are. So this is, of

00:56:38.800 course, doesn't say speak to all women, but just on average and evolutionarily speaking, this makes 0.80

00:56:42.860 sense in terms of why women prefer someone who has status and resources to provide for them and 0.99

00:56:47.520 potential children. So what we have in education and in the workforce is that women are far 1.00

00:56:52.940 excelling their male peers. And I think female success is a wonderful thing. I think female

00:56:58.380 ambition is wonderful but as you said if we are at the same time intentionally suppressing male

00:57:04.400 success through initiatives like diversity having quotas that really favor women and minorities

00:57:09.120 instead of over merit and in some cases explicitly punishing men as many of my former academic

00:57:14.200 colleagues will tell me they will sometimes experience uh job postings that explicitly

00:57:19.260 say they are not hiring for men especially in the sciences there are again lots of programs

00:57:24.320 mentorship opportunities for explicitly for women and early stage researchers that are female

00:57:30.960 explicitly no such thing for men if you tried to advertise specifically for men i think that

00:57:35.340 they would get shot down in two seconds so there's this bias there and so when you add those two

00:57:40.720 things together what happens is there's a smaller number of men whom women find attractive and whom

00:57:46.760 they wish to date but the thing is men don't care as much about a partner's financial success or

00:57:52.020 resources. So these highly successful men basically get their pick of women in terms of

00:57:56.740 no matter how successful a woman is, all women are fighting for this smaller pool of men. 0.84

00:58:01.440 And the other men who were less successful are basically shut out of the mating market. 0.99

00:58:06.500 You write about the three sixes rule, which women, many women may inherently have, 0.56

00:58:13.880 but winds up being an impossibility for virtually all women. Can you speak to that?

00:58:19.640 Right. So the three sixes refers to basically top tier male specimen in terms of dating. So a man, from this perspective, a man needs to be over six feet tall, have an annual income of over six figures and have a, I'm not sure if I can say, I'll say down below on your show, a penis that is over six inches in length.

00:58:40.980 so it if you as a woman pursue a man who does not meet these criteria you it's considered settling 0.93

00:58:46.540 from this perspective so i think it's a little bit ridiculous because from i say a research

00:58:51.400 perspective and i think if you talk to anyone who's married those factors i mean there's some

00:58:55.420 truth to say the annual income being uh enough that he can support you and your growing family

00:59:01.280 say or wanting a partner who's taller because he can potentially protect you and offer physical

00:59:06.020 safety. But, you know, in terms of penis length, penis, penis girth, it's actually a greater 0.95

00:59:12.720 predictor of sexual satisfaction. So other factors like personality, comment, comment is growth, 0.97

00:59:18.620 girth. We're having a tutorial today on penises on the Megyn Kelly show. Yeah. So I think women 0.97

00:59:27.260 should be allowed to want what they want. But at the same time, this is as I talk in Sextinction 0.94

00:59:31.500 about the role of social media and just how ridiculous it's become in terms of telling both 0.82

00:59:35.180 sexes, that they should aspire to attract the highest status partners possible. They have to 0.99

00:59:43.660 check all these additional boxes. And I mean, these partner, this potential partner, not only

00:59:47.900 do you have to find them, but you also have to get along. Hopefully they're nice to you. Hopefully

00:59:52.960 they treat you well. And things like agreeableness, that's so much more important. Chemistry, so much

00:59:57.700 more important in terms of a long-term relationship. Sense of humor. Yeah, exactly. Totally. Yes. You

01:00:02.100 you know, you write in the book, this is actually good. Only 14.5% of men in America are over six

01:00:06.980 feet tall. I didn't know that. Only 14.5% of men in America are over six feet tall. Only 17%

01:00:13.700 make over $100,000 annually. And then you write, considering that the average penis length is about 0.94

01:00:19.160 five inches, an even smaller percentage of men will meet all three sixes. So women who, 0.91

01:00:25.960 whether they're consciously requiring this 0.98

01:00:28.500 or unconsciously, subconsciously requiring this. 1.00

01:00:32.900 You gotta check yourself on these ladies 1.00

01:00:34.320 because you are limiting the pool of potential mates 1.00

01:00:37.560 down to the single digits

01:00:39.480 at a time when the men are tough to find to begin with.

01:00:42.840 So cast a wider net, open your heart, open your mind

01:00:46.800 and your legs ultimately to something less than six. 1.00

01:00:50.100 Sorry, it's true.

01:00:51.780 Okay, now what's happening on the male side though?

01:00:55.200 Because the one thing that I, when I got to this point of the book, one thing I thought first was it's probably SSRIs in some measure because SSRIs, these antidepressants, lower your libido.

01:01:10.320 They make you not want to have sex.

01:01:12.240 And so many people are on them because it's this younger cohort too that's being like just thrown on these drugs by college counselors because they swing by the office one time and like, hey, I'm not adjusting well.

01:01:23.020 Oh, here, take this.

01:01:24.220 and there's really not a disclosure or discussion about how it really could lower your libido

01:01:29.400 in a profound and unfortunate way. Right and in terms of especially children being prescribed

01:01:35.920 these medications so obviously for your audience I'm sure they're they're well aware don't take

01:01:40.360 advice from Deborah on Megan Kelly's podcast speak to your mental health professional but

01:01:44.560 just speaking from a research perspective we don't really know definitively what the long-term

01:01:49.020 effects are on of antidepressants like ssris on children or their sexual development in it to

01:01:55.340 adulthood and um so that's concerning and the other thing is researching for this book was

01:02:00.800 wild to me because there are so many toxins in our environment in our food in the water supply

01:02:06.320 especially when it comes to pharmaceutical waste that we may or may not be fully aware of so even

01:02:10.920 if you aren't intentionally taking antidepressants or pharmaceutical drugs or like the birth control

01:02:17.000 pill you may be in fact exposed to it without your knowing so one of the well well yeah one of the

01:02:23.060 well-known side effects of antidepressants um is low libido but i would also say for people i mean

01:02:28.280 there's a larger mental health crisis going on especially among younger younger generations

01:02:31.780 and when someone is depressed i mean their mood is low they don't really want to be around people

01:02:36.360 they isolate their self-care goes down you know social skills are not really um the priority

01:02:41.660 socializing is not really a priority and then the same with anxiety so people are really self-conscious

01:02:46.240 So all of these things together are creating this context or I guess mental state where people don't want to go out and date. They don't want to have conversations with people. And then with all of these surrogates coming in where you have the AI boyfriends and girlfriends, you have pornography, you have sex dolls and eventually sex robots, which the technology is moving forward quite quickly.

01:03:05.180 these replacements for in-person sex and also connection make it easier for people to stay in

01:03:12.120 this state of mind or i think make it less make them less incentivized to want to move beyond

01:03:18.400 their comfort zone and especially i'd say for gen z i really feel for them because they did grow up

01:03:22.160 on screens they don't really know a life without the internet or social media and so when that's

01:03:26.520 your norm you're not it's a lot more difficult i think to imagine a world that in which that is

01:03:32.420 not the center. And that is not how you talk to partners or potentially meet partners or how you

01:03:36.440 get sexual gratification. But my larger concern, I would say, yeah, with the low libido, it's not

01:03:41.920 just the lack of sex, but it's also this disinterest in connecting with other people

01:03:46.040 and having emotional intimacy, which is just as unhealthy. Right. It's so sad because of course,

01:03:51.320 if you're feeling it, you're at home alone, depressed and lonely, and you just don't want

01:03:56.100 to get out there and meet people. It's like the answer to your problems is to get out there and

01:03:59.440 meet people. And then those problems won't exist. Just push yourself a little. And if you actually

01:04:03.740 do have a partner with whom you're having sex, your life is going to get better. You write in

01:04:07.820 the book that one in eight women, citing a survey, one in eight women said, using social media makes

01:04:14.100 her feel less sexually desirable. This is so interesting because it's not only the problem

01:04:20.800 of, oh, we all have iPhones and I'd rather watch Netflix on my iPhone or on my big screen than

01:04:26.380 have sex, which you've also found in the studies that you've surveyed that are cited in the book.

01:04:30.960 So there's that. Like, I just want to be distracted and escape to some series rather than

01:04:36.060 have bodily contact with somebody. But it's also that for the women, going online on social media, 1.00

01:04:42.940 Instagram in particular, I'm sure, I inserted that, makes the women feel less sexually desirable.

01:04:50.980 And you say one in 11 men also reported feeling less interested in having sex with his partner

01:04:55.680 after looking at social media influencers.

01:04:58.420 So this reminds me, Debra, so much.

01:05:00.360 I've cited this before, but Andrew Schultz,

01:05:02.100 the comedian, he's brilliant.

01:05:03.980 He said once on, you know,

01:05:05.960 the way the comedians have the best insights

01:05:07.520 into our society, they're brilliant and they're funny

01:05:09.840 and that's what makes them great. 1.00

01:05:11.000 And he was saying women, they obsess over like, 0.70

01:05:13.740 oh God, I need to lose 20 pounds 0.68

01:05:15.660 or I'm worried about this position

01:05:17.900 and how it's gonna look or my cellulite or whatever.

01:05:20.840 And he's like, we couldn't care less.

01:05:24.100 Ladies, we couldn't care less. 1.00

01:05:27.240 All we want is access. 1.00

01:05:28.880 We want to have the experience with you.

01:05:30.600 Like, please, for the love of God, stop obsessing over those things. 0.62

01:05:34.220 And these women are looking at these perfect women, in quotes, with the perfect curated lives. 0.88

01:05:41.340 And they feel fat. 0.92

01:05:42.540 They feel gross.

01:05:43.320 They feel less than, undesirable.

01:05:45.100 Meanwhile, all their partners think like Andrew Schultz thinks.

01:05:49.500 They honestly don't care.

01:05:50.840 I mean, I was reading a study of how young women, Gen Z women in particular, are looking to labiaplasty as a result of pornography exposure and avoiding sex, actually feeling anxious about their body and anxious about having sex because their parts don't look like pornographic actresses.

01:06:07.180 So when you look at social media, there's this trend overall to have a very particular look, which I go, Insect Stinction, I talk about this timeline from going from front-facing cameras and selfies to filters to now we're getting into more sophisticated AI and how this is also spreading into cosmetic trends.

01:06:24.540 And young, in my hometown, I see teenagers fairly often walking around with injectables in their face.

01:06:30.620 And I'm thinking these girls are not even done development yet. 0.82

01:06:33.560 And why do they feel the need to radically change the way they look? 1.00

01:06:36.180 I think if women or men want to get cosmetic procedures, that's their business. And I'm not judging that at all. I think especially if you have a public facing job nowadays, there's so much pressure. So I fully understand that. But for my concern is for children, especially or young women who are essentially, you know, there's no reason. There's absolutely no reason. And the only reason to me is because they're, you know, vested interests that want to push this on a generation so that they feel insecure and they feel that they need to look outside of themselves to fill that gap or to spend their money on things.

01:07:06.180 they don't need so with regard to say social media i think it's really unfortunate that even

01:07:11.300 people who have partners are not interested in having sex with them or even something as simple

01:07:16.100 as just being on your phone swiping or scrolling when you're with your partner there's so many times

01:07:20.980 when i'm in public i'll see young couples and i'll think oh that's really sweet and then i'll see

01:07:24.340 both of them are on their phones together they're not interacting the only time they interact is

01:07:28.100 when they point they point at their phone to each other so you know i think we'd all benefit from

01:07:33.220 spending less time on our screens, but also to for the younger generation to be aware that

01:07:37.360 this is really not something you need to be worried about. And like you said, men are just

01:07:40.380 happy. They're happy with what they can get. They're not going to notice that insecurity

01:07:44.120 that you have. And I would say even as we get older as women, men love it. Men love MILFs.

01:07:48.660 So we have nothing to worry about. Yes, I think that's right. And I think most women actually do 0.84

01:07:55.320 want and would be very happy with a man who's good to them, who's kind to them, who pays attention

01:08:00.480 to them, who potentially can provide for them and wouldn't obsess over, you know, how exactly how

01:08:06.580 tall he is, et cetera. Um, it did remind me that discussion that your reference to what we see

01:08:12.460 online and how it's like young girls have these images that are not realistic. This isn't about

01:08:17.060 a filter, but it is about obvious, in my opinion, disordered eating. Um, Demi Moore is at, I think

01:08:24.480 it's Cannes, right? The Cannes Film Festival is going on now. And she's shockingly thin. She looks

01:08:31.900 truly anorexic. There was a screen grab of her. The New York Post wrote this, but they weren't 0.98

01:08:38.880 the only ones. They're not the only ones who phrased it, but they were like, oh, her toned

01:08:43.420 arms were all the talk at Cannes. Well, correct me if I'm wrong, and it's not Cannes, my team.

01:08:49.860 But in any event, you see this picture of her, Deborah, she is skin and bones. The outreached arm does not look like an arm with some muscle, you know, and it's just toned, you know, like Angela Bassett, right, who infamously or famously played Tina Turner and rocked that body as well as Tina did.

01:09:11.980 She looks like a Holocaust victim, forgive me, 0.74

01:09:15.720 but I mean, it's like just barely any muscle. 0.94

01:09:19.360 Can we put the picture on the board, please?

01:09:21.140 Of just a teeny tiny, like sinewy thing

01:09:24.460 attached to a bone and the elbow is protruding.

01:09:27.660 The elbow bone is like, I mean,

01:09:29.320 it always protrudes on everybody.

01:09:30.700 You can see that bone, but I'm telling you like projectile.

01:09:33.880 And this should not be celebrated.

01:09:36.060 This really, to me, should be, I don't want to condemn her

01:09:39.360 because I think there's something she's dealing with something emotionally, obviously.

01:09:43.240 But we need to speak out and say, no, no, no, no, that's not healthy.

01:09:46.880 And it's not it's not attractive.

01:09:48.620 I with all due respect to me, I think we actually need to shame it and say it's unattractive

01:09:54.680 because without that added layer of shaming it, you're not going to stop young girls from

01:10:00.520 wanting to emulate it.

01:10:02.380 And she is so naturally beautiful, too.

01:10:05.260 So it's I mean, I can only imagine what her life is like.

01:10:07.920 And I imagine she's under a lot of pressure to be in the spotlight. So my issue with the glamorization of particular, I guess, a certain narrative around women's bodies or sexuality is when you see, especially older celebrities, and I'm not trying to shame them for their age, but it's like when they're trying to make a comeback, it's about their sex appeal.

01:10:29.380 It's almost always they're half naked and there's a big splashy, you know, coverage of them with their bits out saying her comeback is here.

01:10:38.480 Oh, she looks so young. She looks so great. She's usually had quite a bit of work done, which is fine.

01:10:42.820 But my concern is for girls looking at this and saying, you know, this is a famous woman, very successful woman. 1.00

01:10:48.780 And yet all the all she has seemed to have all she seems to have to offer from the media's perspective is her sexuality.

01:10:56.340 and it's not just that she's you know in out in the sunshine enjoying her day it's she's always 1.00

01:11:01.400 very barely dressed and again there's nothing wrong with women who want to show off their 0.60

01:11:05.940 bodies but there's something to me it's like the that her value is not that great unless she's 0.64

01:11:11.340 half naked and i can only imagine what it's like being a girl because growing up you know we had

01:11:15.820 fashion magazines we had advertising and things like that but it wasn't to the extent that it is

01:11:19.780 now where you're constantly bombarded you cannot open your phone without seeing this stuff if you're

01:11:23.720 on social media and it's just such an extreme where in some cases oh my goodness when i think

01:11:28.700 about i was in a clothing store a while ago and it's it's like don't ask me why i'm in a teen

01:11:33.040 fashion store but anyway i was there and the advertising looked like quite literally soft

01:11:37.440 core porn i was stunned it took me a second i said where am i you know and and for teenage girls

01:11:42.840 who are emulating this i only understand in our culture especially that's so focused on

01:11:47.080 pornographic imagery and you know making money selling your body using your sexuality taking

01:11:52.580 all the money you can for men and making money however you can hustle all that stuff. And it's

01:11:58.120 just, I don't feel that's an appropriate message for young girls. And I don't think it's good for

01:12:01.420 their self-esteem either. No, I asked my team to pull this. Lily Phillips, she's one of the only

01:12:09.980 fans. I don't, I don't think you can fairly call her a model. I mean, with all due respect, she's 0.98

01:12:15.740 a prostitute. I mean, she takes people's money and she has sex with them. So you tell me what 1.00

01:12:19.820 you'd call that. So I'm very interested in this woman. And there's a couple more who just like

01:12:26.380 her who are setting these records for having sex with. In her case, it was first like 37 men in a

01:12:32.540 day. And then it was a hundred men a day. And I think she did a thousand men in a day too.

01:12:37.500 That's Bonnie Blue, I think.

01:12:38.300 Or at least it was-

01:12:38.980 It's her competitor.

01:12:40.140 Okay.

01:12:41.420 Not that that's any better.

01:12:42.240 Yeah, I know there's more than one. And it's not just the two of them, by the way. So this

01:12:47.440 caught my attention because she, she later sat down for an interview with the BBC and they found,

01:12:54.980 they found this moment with her. Okay. So here's what happened. She, she, I wound up watching the

01:13:00.980 documentary, not, not the actual OnlyFans video, but the actual documentary of some filmmaker who

01:13:06.740 was with her in the lead up to this 100 men in a day and post the 100 men in a day. And in the

01:13:13.080 lead up, she talked very cavalierly about it. She was really excited. I love sex. It's just something

01:13:17.280 that I've always loved. My parents know they're not proud, but they support me. And it's just who

01:13:23.180 I am. So I'm not being forced into it. So there's no shame. But then she has the experience and

01:13:30.040 each man gets five minutes with her is the way it worked on that 100 men thing. And it was really

01:13:37.620 so gross. She explained to the documentarian that she started off by giving most of these guys oral 0.76

01:13:43.820 sex with no condom. So like a hundred men, no condom. And then she'd have actual sex with them 0.99

01:13:49.720 and they would have to wear the condom. And the room, I'm sorry to be too gross, but people should 0.96

01:13:55.140 know, the room in which she did this in her own apartment, when the documentarian walked in with

01:14:00.680 his cameraman, after everybody had left, the cameraman literally gagged from like the sights

01:14:06.660 and smells of the room. So this is this woman's like, happy go lucky, you know, OnlyFans existence 1.00

01:14:12.780 where she, she just casually has sex with a hundred men. And this guy, I'll get you the name 0.85

01:14:18.440 of the documentary because he did a good job in sort of, he was sensitive. What, oh, she texted.

01:14:23.000 Okay. Let's see. It's, uh, it's on YouTube and it's by a guy named Josh Peters, P-I-E-T-E-R-S.

01:14:29.000 Um, he was sensitive about her to, to what she'd been going through. And he kind of knew what was

01:14:34.620 coming, I think before she did. And here is a soundbite of him talking to her right after it

01:14:40.640 was over and it just took definitely a lot longer than i thought it was gonna be i think it was when

01:14:46.740 it was only like 40 and i was like i'm not even halfway yet yeah and 40 is still a lot of people

01:14:53.100 it's not for the weak girls if i'm honest it was hard

01:14:57.020 i don't know if i'd recommend it why not i think if you're a different type of girl it's very like

01:15:05.340 it's kind of like being a

01:15:08.020 in a sense of like

01:15:09.460 it's just a different

01:15:11.320 feeling I don't know how to explain it like

01:15:16.980 it's not like just having

01:15:20.200 sex with someone 0.86

01:15:21.160 yeah yeah 0.98

01:15:22.040 just one in one out like it feels

01:15:24.240 intense

01:15:25.760 like more intense than you thought it might

01:15:28.840 definitely

01:15:30.580 sorry

01:15:33.200 i feel so sorry for her it's so sad i mean that the reality of what that does to you did hit her

01:15:47.560 and i don't even think she understood what she was dealing with there deborah what i find so

01:15:52.700 disturbing is that this message is being sent to young girls that it's empowering for you to sell

01:15:58.780 your body, whether it's by producing your own nudes and selling them on platforms like OnlyFans

01:16:03.940 or if it's working as a sugar baby, which is basically prostitution rebranded for a higher

01:16:08.560 set of buyers in terms of women, say, wanting to pay off their university tuition or getting 0.99

01:16:14.400 expensive handbags and shoes and vacations and free plastic surgery. But that's the reality.

01:16:19.440 It's not good for anyone, I would say, but especially for the young women who gravitate

01:16:23.720 toward this line of work. Usually there are underlying reasons as to why they find it

01:16:28.940 interesting or potentially enjoyable. Usually they have a history of sexual abuse or some form

01:16:36.620 of sexual trauma, and that's not being addressed. And especially with the societal messages and

01:16:41.000 saying that it's great for women and that this is very entrepreneurial of spirit, it's not good 0.67

01:16:46.920 for them. And I do think unless they are able to heal from those wounds and deal with underlying

01:16:51.460 causes. It's going to lead to more tragedy in their own lives. Speaking of something that

01:16:58.280 happened to you when you were little, the same woman, Lily Phillips, I don't mean to dump on her

01:17:02.900 because honestly, I feel bad for her. She seems like a sweet person. And I really genuinely feel

01:17:07.880 sorry for her. I think she needs help. She doesn't need more people signing up for her OnlyFans.

01:17:13.700 But she gave this interview to BBC Newsnight. And listen to what she said here at SOT55.

01:17:17.920 honestly i probably watched pornography first when i was maybe 11 and so i've always known

01:17:26.940 about where i've always knew it was a thing and i always thought it was very normal to watch

01:17:32.420 and i personally don't think pornography is a bad thing in moderation but if you started watching

01:17:39.420 at 11 yeah i mean that is so young yeah can you describe how it has influenced you and you and

01:17:47.780 your brain and your outlook on sex you know what i it actually made me really sex confident and

01:17:55.940 learn a lot of things i mean that's mostly how i learned through pornography and i i i do think

01:18:03.900 it has a positive effect on me just in terms of like understanding things a little bit more

01:18:10.920 is there a direct link between you watching pornography as you grew up and the decisions

01:18:17.480 you've made to do what you do now i think maybe i mean i don't know a life without pornography

01:18:23.160 so maybe what do you make of that oh boy i mean it's tragic but this is the reality now the average

01:18:30.380 age at which kids are exposed to porn is 12 one in seven kids sees porn for the first time at age

01:18:36.120 10 or younger and it's that age is getting younger and younger and it's I don't blame parents because

01:18:40.940 they didn't know but it's from access to smartphones at such a young age so the minute a child gets

01:18:46.240 their own smartphone or device they have access to internet pornography and especially I would say

01:18:52.700 when you're on the internet and platforms are to some extent incentivized to want to hook children

01:18:59.560 at a young age because then you have basically a customer for life. Even if they're not paying for

01:19:04.360 the content, you're going to be able to monetize their views and their clicks. So I have read

01:19:10.720 countless reports of how this is really warping children's sexual development in terms of an

01:19:16.080 increase in child-on-child sex crimes where you see children abusing their younger siblings or

01:19:21.580 classmates. It's some really, really horrific things that are happening. But also this larger

01:19:27.140 trend of violence in the bedroom especially among gen z i have not spoken to a zoomer who has not

01:19:32.640 experienced this to some extent either they have asked a partner to choke them during bed during 0.58

01:19:37.800 sex or they have had a partner ask them to so it's primarily men choking women so either women

01:19:44.560 asking men to choke them or men wanting to choke the women and i don't believe this is a an organic

01:19:50.940 preference that these this generation just happens to have i do think this is mostly from pornography

01:19:55.500 for people who do enjoy being humiliated or physically hurt or potentially terrified during

01:20:03.220 sex that speaks again to more of abuse or neglect in childhood that has led them to have a very

01:20:09.640 pathological view of sexuality but for the most part i do think it's porn and i don't even think

01:20:14.240 most men or women actually enjoy doing this i think from porn they've learned or they believe

01:20:19.340 that the opposite sex wants this and that's why they do it so people have been very upset at me

01:20:24.620 for saying this they say like no this is just a quote-unquote consensual thing I remember the

01:20:31.080 first time I did your show I talked about paraphilias which are abnormal sexual interests

01:20:34.800 and I said that this is something that should be destigmatized I completely take that back because

01:20:38.780 in writing Sex Stinction and doing this additional research for the book just seeing how prevalent

01:20:44.180 these issues have become and I do think so-called sex positivity in society has been a big contributor

01:20:49.620 to that because now what you have is young girls will see pornography at whatever age hopefully not

01:20:55.660 that young but probably they will and they will be horrified and disgusted by it but they'll say

01:20:59.400 well this is what boys want and who am I to say I don't like it because you know society's telling

01:21:03.780 me that I have to be open to anything if I don't like it maybe I just won't have sex in at all I'll

01:21:08.420 just say this is not for me which might be contributing to why young people are not as

01:21:11.780 interested in sex or say there are boys who say I don't want to choke my partner so maybe I'm

01:21:15.580 better off just you know being staying over here not getting involved in the dating market and so

01:21:19.880 what happens is instead people don't feel like they can actually advocate for themselves when

01:21:23.420 they get into a sexual relationship which can then lead to in some cases non-consensual things

01:21:28.440 happening people getting hurt with the case of sexual strangulation you can die brain damage is

01:21:33.620 very possible as well in some cases it's accidental if people are under the influence if they do

01:21:38.400 happen to be drinking or on drugs or even in the dark or they don't know their partner well

01:21:41.660 I've heard of people choking someone on the first date you know it's it's absolutely insane it's so

01:21:47.900 dangerous and so I really think you know whatever we can do to prevent this early exposure to

01:21:53.880 pornography because someone like Lily Phillips I can't speak for her but it really is heartbreaking

01:21:58.040 to hear her speak about this in this way and to say she doesn't know a life without porn I can't

01:22:03.260 imagine you know going through before you've even had your first crush or your first kiss

01:22:07.160 being exposed to this and not knowing what to make of it and especially if a child doesn't have a

01:22:11.340 parent or someone they trust whom they can go to to talk about it, it can be really distressing.

01:22:16.320 I hate to say it, but there's this other woman, this sex podcaster, Alex Cooper,

01:22:22.440 is doing damage daily on her show, in my view. She was just out there. We played the soundbite 1.00

01:22:28.360 a couple of weeks ago of her saying, hey, you know, if you want to give it up on the first 0.99

01:22:31.920 day, including anal, good on you. You know, no problem. No guy's like going to run away. 0.99

01:22:36.640 They're not going to not call you because you gave them that on date one. 0.99

01:22:41.440 What is beyond idiocy? 0.98

01:22:43.720 It's actual that to me is actual dangerous talk is trying to normalize that kind of behavior for your average young woman. 1.00

01:22:53.440 Sure. Just give it give it up entirely on date one. 0.96

01:22:56.800 Don't make him whine and dine you.

01:22:59.200 Don't get to know him.

01:23:00.220 Don't establish a trust.

01:23:02.040 Don't, you know, make sure that the person who's listening to you, Alex Cooper, has a strong ego and a strong family life and can understand that actually doing that might diminish her in massive ways in her own mind before we even get to what it does in the man's mind.

01:23:17.340 It's just so irresponsible to talk like that about a very intimate act, a couple of them, with a young audience, which is who's listening to her.

01:23:26.560 I just find it so. So it's not just the Lily Phillips of the world who at least you have to like go find on OnlyFans and I guess pay for. It's this like this. Her podcast is very popular. She's also on Sirius XM, which is where we're airing right now. So she's been sort of mainstreamed. And I'm sure some of what she talks about is mainstream. But this is who she is. This is what she's advocating for young women.

01:23:51.520 Yeah, I completely agree with you. And again, I don't know Alex Cooper, so I can't speak to her motivations. But what I will say from an evolutionary perspective is it's very common for women to compete with other women for male sexual partners, right? It's called intrasexual competition.

01:24:05.880 so what i have observed some women do and it makes sense again from an evolutionary perspective

01:24:10.640 is they will give women bad advice so that it will sabotage their ability to attract 0.99

01:24:15.840 a good partner and especially if a woman a woman has a partner it's called mate guarding so she'll

01:24:20.920 give other women bad advice or make them denigrate themselves so that other men don't find them 0.91

01:24:25.500 attractive so that her potential partner won't leave her for someone else so if you're telling

01:24:30.760 If you're telling women to go and basically sleep with men on the first day, do whatever a man wants, do whatever. I believe the term she used was whatever feels good to your body. And again, this is just my personal opinion, but I don't believe that's good advice because men have basically a dual mating strategy in terms of how they evaluate their partners. 0.98

01:24:51.840 so they are looking for either wife material or they are looking for short term and they may be

01:24:56.780 looking for these two types of women simultaneously so in many cases they will have say a wife but

01:25:01.340 they'll also this is obviously not morally good but they will be say cheating with shorter term 0.92

01:25:05.380 material on the side so they shorter term material women and i don't feel this way about women this 0.83

01:25:09.700 is just how men categorize women is uh you know women who tend to be more say promiscuous more 0.90

01:25:14.620 sexually available so they'll have sex with them short term but they definitely are not going to 0.99

01:25:18.240 invest in them um they're not going to ever give them a ring whereas long-term material women are

01:25:23.680 the ones who they will invest in they see a future with this person they will have a family with this

01:25:27.940 person because men do not are generally averse to promiscuting women because they see that as

01:25:33.240 well if her sexual history involves very many partners with men say she didn't know very well

01:25:37.600 there's a good chance that's going to continue if i wife her up and do i want to find out sometime 1.00

01:25:41.920 down the road that she's cheated on me with someone and i've been raising this child who i

01:25:45.220 believe is my own, but it's actually been sired by another man. So that's where that's the

01:25:49.240 psychology behind it. So if you're telling women to go out and sleep with however many men, I mean, 0.52

01:25:55.080 what's not good for the women, because they're going to get attached because women release more

01:25:58.600 oxytocin, oxytocin during sex than men do. So women are going to get more attached after sex 1.00

01:26:03.380 than a man will. And the other thing is men, their bonding hormones go down to zero after 0.91

01:26:07.860 ejaculation. So they're really into you when you're having sex with you. But the minute they 0.98

01:26:11.700 have their orgasm it that basically shuts off so the sexual systems fascinating between the sexes 0.63

01:26:17.300 is very different and so as a woman she's going to long for him after he's not going to care about

01:26:22.560 her and then what is that going to do to her long term if she keeps going through experiences like

01:26:26.580 that she is going to eventually hate men i actually wrote about this recently for the globe and mail

01:26:30.200 about how we see this we talk i mean media talks a lot about online radicalization among men and

01:26:36.280 say the manosphere which i think is very important that we call that out but you see a similar trend

01:26:39.780 happening among young women and so if they're going through the the motions of this where they're

01:26:43.820 or these these experiences where they are constantly hooking up with guys and getting

01:26:46.880 their heart broken each time and they don't understand why they start to blame men instead

01:26:50.220 of saying hmm maybe this is not the best decision especially when you have the culture telling them

01:26:54.080 oh this is you know sexual liberation this is good for you as a woman just do what do what you want

01:26:58.400 to do and also it's very likely she's not even going to have an orgasm from a one-night stand

01:27:02.020 because women have to be very relaxed they have to trust their partner in order to enjoy their 0.78

01:27:06.220 experience. And if it's a guy you don't know, it's not going to happen. Yeah, I love that.

01:27:13.280 You're shorter term material. You're labeling yourself shorter term material. Is that really

01:27:17.940 what you want? Is that your goal? All right. This is so fascinating, Debra. I love talking to you.

01:27:22.640 Stand by. We're going to take a quick break. And then there's much, much more I have got to ask

01:27:25.720 you about Brian Noem. Oh, by the way, just to reiterate, the name of the book is Sextinction,

01:27:32.180 The Decline of Sex and the Future of Intimacy by Dr. Deborah Soh. When there are supply

01:27:39.500 constraints on commodities, prices surge. You see it with the fuel prices happening right now,

01:27:44.960 right? As a result of what's going on in the Strait of Hormuz. And you know what else is a

01:27:48.820 limited commodity? Gold. They mine it out of the ground, and when it's gone, it's gone.

01:27:54.420 Governments cannot just print more of it, and that is why everyone from central banks to savvy

01:27:58.300 savers, consider diversifying with gold. If you've been thinking about it for years, but have never

01:28:04.240 moved some of your savings into physical gold, consider Birch Gold Group. Now through May 29th,

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01:28:29.080 and physical gold. Text MK to the number 989898 to see if you qualify for a first-time gold buyer

01:28:34.820 rebate of up to $10,000. Here with me now, Dr. Debra Soh, S-O-H, sex neuroscientist and author

01:28:47.080 of the book, Sextinction.

01:28:49.340 So interesting and so many great nuggets in here.

01:28:53.420 Okay, we got to spend a minute on Brian Noem.

01:28:58.660 What is that?

01:29:00.200 What is that?

01:29:01.240 Where the man not only wants to be across 0.85

01:29:04.620 from somebody with the enormous breasts, 1.00

01:29:08.820 like they call it bimboification, 1.00

01:29:11.780 like 3,000 cc's was the number that was thrown out

01:29:15.540 is some huge number. And he, you know, he wants to see her in that, but he himself wants to wear

01:29:21.580 that stuff. Oh, this is him. We're showing pictures of from the Daily Mail. He himself

01:29:26.600 wants to pretend he's got the enormous boobs and wears the teeny tiny girl shorts and like wants 1.00

01:29:32.480 to be called, I think, was it like a slut? He wanted the women to call him like girl names 1.00

01:29:38.740 as if he's transitioning. You tell me what's going on there, Debra. 0.97

01:29:43.660 So I always want to start with the same caveat in that I don't know this gentleman, so I can't speak to his particular presentation. But just in terms of what this, say, research literature would suggest, definitely autogynophilia. So this is, and I believe that was your assessment last time as well. So autogynophilia in that some men find it sexually arousing to have the body of a woman.

01:30:06.900 So I talked about this in my first book, The End of Gender, and this is one of the main motivators for transition nowadays. 0.50

01:30:12.260 So when you see someone who's born male, who, quote, identifies as female, in some cases has medically transitioned, but is extremely aggressive and is basically screaming at biological women who refuse to go along with this or who say things like, there are differences between you and me, and you should not be in our bathrooms, you should not be in our sports.

01:30:31.120 um so that is one part of the puzzle in terms of eroticizing a woman's body but then the 0.86

01:30:40.220 and bimbo bimbofication is a part of that because that's a part of the expression of 0.97

01:30:45.120 autogynophilia it's basically like a very extreme form of a woman's body and no no woman wants to 0.90

01:30:51.320 actually look like that or very few women do i'll say and the women who do choose to look like that

01:30:55.020 probably have some form of psychopathology in terms of why they'd want the rest to be so enormous 0.88

01:30:59.160 So that basically is the focus of their entire being, right?

01:31:02.740 When you look at someone who looks like that,

01:31:04.680 the first thing you're looking at is her breasts. 1.00

01:31:06.140 And most women, that's not what they want. 1.00

01:31:08.220 So there's that aspect. 0.99

01:31:10.240 There's definitely a sexual and masochism aspect

01:31:12.580 in that the desire to be called, 0.99

01:31:15.060 what was it, slut, I think, or degraded. 0.99

01:31:19.340 So sexual masochism revolves around humiliation. 1.00

01:31:24.340 Yes, hold on. 0.91

01:31:25.860 I think my team just sent me something on this.

01:31:28.140 Stand by.

01:31:29.160 yeah, let's see. The New York Post reports that he allegedly once told the dominatrix he wanted

01:31:35.100 to leave his wife and become the sex worker's trans bimbo slut, revealing his desire to go 0.98

01:31:41.060 by the name Crystal, of course. Yeah, that's a lot. So it speaks to, again, the enjoyment of 1.00

01:31:49.440 being degraded. And again, most healthy women do not desire to be called a slut. If you call a 0.97

01:31:56.180 woman a slut during sex should be very offended so the fact that there's an individual who's male 0.95

01:32:00.840 who is who is enjoying this speaks to again there's a weird interpretation of what i think 1.00

01:32:08.160 some men believe women want during sex because they are not women so they don't actually know

01:32:12.580 what it's like to be a woman and they've not experienced sexual harassment or assault in

01:32:16.800 their life so in some cases like they they think that being degraded is somehow a joyful thing

01:32:22.700 But then the other piece I would say is there's an exhibitionistic aspect. So exhibitionism is typically someone who wants to expose themselves to an unsuspecting person or people, and they find it sexually arousing to see the other person's expression where they get shocked or very, you know, terrified or disgusted.

01:32:39.800 so there seems to be an element of that here because even though it's not necessarily the

01:32:44.080 genitals if there's still an aspect of wanting to shock people get attention and then they're

01:32:48.760 also histrionic traits in that it's wanting to be provocative wanting to again get a lot of

01:32:53.620 attention attention seeking using sexuality or or sexual language to get attention so again

01:32:58.980 if this is someone who's being paid to talk to him in a sexual way then um there but there's

01:33:04.200 There's something about the exhibitionistic aspect because there's a bunch of different reasons why people do this.

01:33:11.040 Sometimes they're antisocial and they just get kicks out of people being really uncomfortable.

01:33:15.380 But in some cases, they want to get caught.

01:33:17.300 The joy is, again, a masochistic element of, especially if you're including your face in photos that are very sexual or potentially humiliating,

01:33:25.600 there's an underlying desire, maybe at a subconscious level, of wanting to be found out.

01:33:30.820 because nowadays people can send sexual images

01:33:33.860 without their face.

01:33:34.620 Most people would send them without their face, right? 1.00

01:33:36.320 They would probably cut the head off in the photo 0.91

01:33:38.360 so that they can't be identified. 0.68

01:33:39.700 Okay, this is reminding me of a discussion

01:33:42.860 we had on the air about Jeffrey Toobin.

01:33:45.800 Of course, he was the CNN Supreme Court analyst

01:33:48.660 and he's written books on the Supreme Court,

01:33:51.040 like one of the most austere, respected,

01:33:54.240 sober legal analysts they had at CNN 0.89

01:33:57.080 who was caught masturbating on a Zoom call 0.53

01:34:00.660 with colleagues in advance of the 2020 election.

01:34:04.480 And I guess he thought the Zoom was over, allegedly. 0.83

01:34:08.840 And he dropped Trout and jerked off right there 0.82

01:34:11.960 in front of all of his colleagues, not at CNN. 0.91

01:34:14.740 This was for his other gig on the magazine.

01:34:16.420 I don't know, I think it was with the New Yorker.

01:34:18.380 And wound up losing his gig.

01:34:20.800 But I don't remember whose theory it was

01:34:24.380 because somebody came out on the show right after

01:34:25.960 and that was their theory that it wasn't a mistake,

01:34:28.080 that at some level he did it because he wanted them to see him doing it.

01:34:33.920 And I mean, from a very rational perspective,

01:34:36.000 you can't think that you're going to go, say, on a Zoom call

01:34:38.740 or sending photos to women you don't know very well of yourself

01:34:42.340 looking a certain way and think that it's not going to get leaked

01:34:44.580 or that you aren't going to be, I mean, people are not going to see something.

01:34:47.840 He thought he had disconnected.

01:34:49.380 You know, he thought he had left the Zoom.

01:34:52.180 But there really is a question about it because even,

01:34:54.960 let's say you're going to do that.

01:34:56.380 Uh, any sane person who had just been on a zoom with their entire newsroom at the New Yorker,

01:35:03.080 you'd think would be like really sure it was disconnected and the laptop was closed and like

01:35:10.020 no one was in. And he not only didn't make triply sure, but it was on and the zoom call was still

01:35:17.320 going. Like, how could he not know? The more I think about it, how could he not know?

01:35:22.180 And you're saying that that, is that a kink? Is that what we're describing? Like a kink where 0.93

01:35:26.060 you need you kind of need to be humiliated yeah well again for so the tubing situation i again i

01:35:31.000 don't know i always want to preface it just to be clear that uh i'm not necessarily speaking to that

01:35:34.980 individual but i would say you know there have been case studies of men who do this where they

01:35:40.020 even if it's not happening in real time they will be masturbating afterwards thinking about people 0.96

01:35:44.280 being horrified and disgusted at the seeing their penis or i wonder if someone's on a call if it's 0.97

01:35:50.220 a video call say and they quote accidentally have the call on while they're doing this whether it's 0.98

01:35:55.200 so they can watch their colleagues' expressions of horror

01:35:58.120 and discuss as they're doing it,

01:35:59.700 as the colleagues are noticing,

01:36:00.820 hey, what is that?

01:36:01.540 What's going on over there?

01:36:03.740 Oh my God.

01:36:05.500 It's such a nightmare to think about.

01:36:08.580 I would like to say, though,

01:36:09.580 I really feel for Chrissy Noem and her family,

01:36:12.820 and my heart goes out to her.

01:36:13.980 And I also hope that this gentleman

01:36:15.920 gets the help that he needs.

01:36:18.620 Yeah, amen to that.

01:36:20.780 Before we leave the subject of Brian Noem,

01:36:23.000 there's sort of something related

01:36:24.600 happening at Oxford. We talked about this with our audience. His name is Matt. I'll spare him

01:36:31.240 the indignity of using his last name here, but he's a lecturer and tutor at University of Oxford.

01:36:36.500 And this is how he presents. Look at this guy. He's got the same enormous boobs that Brian

01:36:43.180 Noem pretended to have. He's in a low cut dress. He also has a bald head, a full man beard. Do we 0.99

01:36:50.200 have this sound bite of him here? Listen to him talking about, this is just from January. Listen

01:36:53.960 to this guy i'm in the process of putting a website together and that is proving to be huge

01:37:00.300 much harder than it probably should be and the problem i'm running up against is um incredibly

01:37:05.640 low-cut syndrome classic um basically what does it mean to be an expert in something because

01:37:12.880 it's really not it's all academic talk you get the gist totally bald with his beard is rubbing 0.98

01:37:19.460 his fake breasts again to me this looks like an autogynophile oh my god i don't know why they 0.99

01:37:28.000 have to do this especially as an academic the two they make all academics look like they're crazy 0.99

01:37:32.380 this is not why and shame on oxford for hiring him shame on them uh again on my assessment again i

01:37:40.500 don't know this person but my personal assessment would be probably something exhibitionistic maybe

01:37:44.660 a little bit of narcissistic uh personality disorder in there and that this person is talking

01:37:49.260 about how he has imposter syndrome clearly you don't feel like you're an imposter as pretending

01:37:53.000 to be a woman here isn't that probably a more pressing point um yeah but yeah definitely with

01:37:59.180 the low cut i mean if you as a i say as someone as someone who was uh working obviously in the 0.57

01:38:05.260 sciences you would not dress like that and want to be taken seriously as a woman you just wouldn't 0.97

01:38:09.480 i mean whether that's fair or not is one question if a woman wouldn't dress like this how do they 0.74

01:38:14.140 let a man pretending to be a woman dressed like this you know they they if a woman teaching at

01:38:19.280 Oxford showed up with her breasts almost out of her dress someone would almost surely say

01:38:25.260 yo Deb Meg it's a no cover up but this guy will get away with it because he's a man and you know

01:38:32.960 this is his special identity and nobody wants to offend him right no one wants to get fired

01:38:36.760 if they tell him that he should cover up or maybe put the prosthetic breasts away

01:38:40.540 even though it's another Kayla Lemieux situation like the shop teacher up in Canada it's like 0.99

01:38:45.820 you do your sexual fetish behind closed doors where our students our children do not have to 1.00

01:38:53.100 participate in it and for the ladies in Gold's Gym in California same you know I mean we played

01:38:58.340 the videotape that we got our hands on it was on social media for a brief period of one guy who was

01:39:03.500 in the Gold's Gym and I think it was Gold's all the gyms in California allow this and many of them

01:39:08.900 have been subjected to this, where the guy was beating off inside the stall, inside the women's

01:39:15.540 bathroom, which was inside the locker room. And a young girl came in and to her credit,

01:39:19.780 she took out her phone and she videotaped it. And you couldn't see his actual naked body,

01:39:24.440 but you could see the shadow down below. He was clearly jerking off. And she and her boyfriend 0.99

01:39:31.060 then came in too and let this guy have it. They didn't hurt him. They just started yelling like,

01:39:35.000 get out of here. And then the employees came in and they were like, oh, there's nothing we can do.

01:39:39.620 There's not. They're making women at Planet Fitness. They're making women and girls and 1.00

01:39:45.120 students here at Oxford participate in these sexual fetishes, which just seems so exploitative

01:39:53.000 and damaging, Deb. Yeah, it's so egregious. And especially when it comes to self-ID in places

01:39:57.900 like women's spaces, who is going to exploit this? Of course, sexual predators. And we've seen in 0.69

01:40:03.200 some cases they are convicted sex offenders who are the ones going and saying well i identify as

01:40:07.240 a woman so there's nothing you can do about it and in fact if you try to kick me out i have the

01:40:10.960 right to complain but in the in the case of say men who have these proclivities in terms of

01:40:15.760 exhibitionism their interactions with people may seem very benign but again it say say with someone

01:40:22.600 who's a lecturer and is interacting with students looking a certain way they in my opinion are

01:40:27.460 probably masturbating thinking about it after in terms of how uncomfortable the students are

01:40:30.920 how the students probably want to say something but don't feel they can because this is someone's 0.94

01:40:34.740 so-called identity so they're going to get in trouble and if anything they're going to get

01:40:38.400 removed from the university if they complain so this is basically emboldening sexual predators

01:40:43.440 and i i just find it so so disgusting um deborah if you don't mind could you stick a stay over uh

01:40:50.560 to the opposite side of this break for just a brief period because there's a couple things

01:40:53.040 on your book that i want to touch on and one other subject that i want to get to deborah so

01:40:57.380 is our guest today. We're talking about her book, Sextinction, The Decline of Sex and the Future of

01:41:02.260 Intimacy. Stand by. Our sponsor, the Electronic Payments Coalition, says Washington politicians

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01:42:20.660 news only on the Megyn Kelly channel, Sirius XM 111, and on the Sirius XM app. 0.86

01:42:30.260 Back with me now is Dr. Debra So. She is the author of the book,

01:42:34.740 Sextinction, The Decline of Sex and the Future of Intimacy. We've got a couple of things that

01:42:40.320 we got to get to, including solutions. Okay. But before we do that, I wanted to ask you about

01:42:45.820 something that happened on the program yesterday. We took a deep dive into the allegations against

01:42:51.720 Michael Jackson because there's this new huge movie out about him that is just crushing it

01:42:58.420 at the box office. It's already made a couple hundred million dollars. They say it could make

01:43:02.040 a billion dollars. His brand is officially back. The movie completely ignores the molestation

01:43:09.940 scandal. And there are all sorts of reasons why they chose to do that. One is it works better

01:43:15.260 just to paint him as this music icon. Yay, everybody feels good and goes home.

01:43:19.800 The second is they actually did originally, reportedly, have a section in there that

01:43:24.500 tried to debunk the allegations against him and then were reminded that settlement agreements

01:43:29.600 with some of the accusers prohibited them from saying anything about it. And so they had to

01:43:36.380 remove what had been a preexisting section of the movie trying to rebut the allegations.

01:43:41.780 But unfortunately for Team Jackson,

01:43:44.320 just as this comes out,

01:43:46.000 this family that Michael was very close with in New Jersey,

01:43:50.400 it's a crazy story.

01:43:51.300 If you guys haven't listened to yesterday's show,

01:43:52.900 you do it when you have some time

01:43:54.060 because the whole thing was really fascinating, I thought.

01:43:56.260 We had Mark Garagos on who knew Michael and represented him.

01:43:59.260 But this family with whom he'd been very close,

01:44:01.120 he like adopted them and they adopted him from New Jersey.

01:44:03.680 Regular family.

01:44:04.840 The dad had been a manager at the Plaza Hotel

01:44:07.220 and he had met Michael

01:44:08.380 and they didn't have a lot of money.

01:44:10.040 and Michael took a liking to him.

01:44:12.920 And then he introduced Michael to his four children,

01:44:15.900 three little boys and a girl.

01:44:17.180 I think all single digits when they first met Michael,

01:44:20.840 he started going out to New Jersey regularly

01:44:23.460 and visiting with them.

01:44:25.260 And then it morphed into like this quote, second family.

01:44:28.080 He actually, after 9-11,

01:44:30.320 Michael moved into their little New Jersey modest home

01:44:34.500 for three months.

01:44:36.200 Imagine this like regular family, middle class in New Jersey suddenly has Michael Jackson living with them. 1.00

01:44:44.240 He would bring his chimp. 1.00

01:44:45.760 I mean, the worst house guest ever. 1.00

01:44:48.340 So it was a crazy story, but they were always his best witnesses.

01:44:53.040 And they always said, never, never, never, never.

01:44:56.220 And they talked about how when the molestation scandal would rear its head because it happened repeatedly over the years, they'd say to their children, God, anything didn't.

01:45:04.540 And the children said, absolutely not.

01:45:07.200 He's never laid a finger on us.

01:45:08.640 He's been a complete gentleman.

01:45:10.200 He's a member of the family.

01:45:11.480 No, no, no, no, no.

01:45:12.440 The family wound up letting the kids go on tour with Michael.

01:45:16.040 You shouldn't do that.

01:45:16.880 Don't let your child go away with an adult, not his or her parent, and sleep in their bed, which is what was happening.

01:45:23.740 And now, after they saw the documentary, in quotes, because it really wasn't one, but it was two guys telling their alleged stories, leaving Neverland in 2019, one of the four now adult children, they're in their, I think, 30s now, said to the other siblings, he did do it to me.

01:45:42.320 I was lying all those years when I said he didn't.

01:45:45.400 And all three of the others said, me too.

01:45:48.300 Wow.

01:45:48.560 And so they've all now come out in a documentary that aired on 60 Minutes Australia in very powerful testimonials with great detail and said exactly what they claim Michael did to them.

01:46:03.700 Now, I've got to put a big asterisk at the end of it because they are suing his estate.

01:46:09.000 And his estate now is more flush with cash than it has been since he died, thanks to this movie.

01:46:15.320 and they say they have another one,

01:46:17.360 like a follow-up they're about to drop

01:46:18.580 as soon as this one falls out of the public eye.

01:46:21.340 So they're going to make hundreds of millions of dollars

01:46:23.420 at a minimum.

01:46:24.280 So their pockets are deep again.

01:46:27.060 And, you know, I just, no offense to this family

01:46:29.840 and I have nothing but empathy for these,

01:46:31.680 you know, now adults,

01:46:32.600 but children who were allegedly molested,

01:46:35.260 but it would make it a lot cleaner and more credible

01:46:39.000 if they just said, this happened to us

01:46:41.420 and we want you to know, as opposed to,

01:46:43.620 and now we filed a lawsuit.

01:46:45.320 to get money. It just complicates things. That's all from a PR perspective.

01:46:49.940 So the reason I'm setting all this up for you is that when we did our deep dive on Michael Jackson

01:46:54.900 is we took a look at his own childhood, right? As you just pointed out on this program,

01:47:01.560 typically these sexual fetishes or kinks or whatever they wind up being, and pedophilia 0.99

01:47:08.420 is a different thing entirely, but it too typically will begin from something that happened in your 0.91

01:47:13.940 childhood. I think you'll correct me if I'm wrong because you know all about this. And we looked at

01:47:19.620 Michael's childhood and he was on the record prior to his death on the extreme abuse, physical abuse

01:47:26.580 he suffered at the hands of his overbearing father, Joe Jackson, who seems like a truly terrible man.

01:47:35.280 And Michael testified that he wouldn't even allow his children to call him dad. He made them call

01:47:41.200 him Joe. He worked them to the bone. He did not allow them to have a childhood of any kind, just

01:47:47.680 on the road, on tour. You keep working. That's it. He didn't want to see them have any relaxation

01:47:52.800 time. Michael told interviewers he never, ever had a vacation. I think just one time they had

01:47:57.520 a vacation where they just stayed at home. But every other day off or weekend, they were working,

01:48:03.560 making an album, dancing, rehearsing, on tour, et cetera. Just never any downtime. And he as a

01:48:09.320 little boy would hear kids playing at the park or playing games, and he knew he could never be a

01:48:14.340 part of it. In addition to that, actual physical abuse, like beatings, which were so bad, he said

01:48:20.580 his mother had to beg the father over and over saying, you're going to kill him, you're going 0.98

01:48:24.120 to kill him. But they continued. And then there was this weird twist, Deborah. I mean, I didn't 0.99

01:48:31.120 see this coming, but of course it had me thinking about the pedophilia accusations, because listen

01:48:36.740 to what he says his dad used to do to him. If you're a warning, this is disturbing.

01:49:06.740 And it was just like me dying.

01:49:09.760 Your foot's all in your face, your back, everywhere. 0.99

01:49:12.720 I always hear my mother, but no, Joe, you're going to kill him. 1.00

01:49:15.000 You're going to kill him. 1.00

01:49:16.100 I would just give up. 1.00

01:49:17.500 There's nothing I can do.

01:49:21.080 And I hated him for it.

01:49:24.520 So disturbing and extremely odd that any parent before administering a corporal punishment against a child would make him strip naked and would oil him up.

01:49:33.960 It's very strange. 0.59

01:49:35.560 And to me, there's a very good possibility that Michael left out some portion of that abuse because there's no reason to oil your young child up and make him strip nude before you spank him or, in this disgusting case, whip him with the cord of an iron.

01:49:55.340 That's, you know, just my speculation given what we're learning about Michael and we've suspected about Michael for years.

01:50:01.100 So you're the expert on these things.

01:50:03.360 What do you make of that testimonial and that story?

01:50:06.120 Yeah, it's really disturbing.

01:50:07.400 I definitely, well, in terms of your assessment of pedophilia, I do, I personally think that

01:50:13.060 that is a potential explanation if the allegations are true.

01:50:17.900 So I don't know whether those allegations are true or not, but according to, I mean,

01:50:22.780 based on the behavior that you've described in which a grown man chooses to spend lots

01:50:27.620 of time with children who are not his own to the extent of moving in with the family and sleeping

01:50:34.500 with these children in his bed that to me is a very very large indicator of pedophilia and so

01:50:41.460 so for parents listening definitely these are some signs to look out for and i'm sure your audience

01:50:45.200 knows better than to allow their children to sleep on the same bed as a strange man but typical

01:50:51.320 Typical things that groomers will do is they will lavish a child with lots of attention, gifts.

01:50:58.000 They will find ways to touch a child in a non-sexual way so that it normalizes bodily contact.

01:51:05.960 And they'll tend to do this in front of the parents so that the child thinks, oh, this is normal.

01:51:11.660 This is okay.

01:51:12.140 My parents are here.

01:51:12.900 My parents don't have a problem with this person touching me, even though it's in a non-sexual way.

01:51:16.620 But so that when the touch progresses to becoming sexual, the child has a more difficult time differentiating and saying, wait a minute, this is not okay now.

01:51:23.860 Keeping secrets is another way of grooming a child, making it more likely that they're going to keep secrets of, say, a sexual nature when the abuse begins.

01:51:34.380 So my general advice to parents is always trust your gut, because I do think most parents have a sixth sense about this.

01:51:41.560 But it's usually, especially with abusers, they tend to be members of the community who are in high regard, who tend to be well-liked.

01:51:48.620 They tend to be viewed as, in some cases, family men.

01:51:51.760 And not to say that women aren't abusers, but usually it's men who are the ones who are pedophilic.

01:51:56.140 And in some cases, they will use their female partners to get access to children or to abuse children.

01:52:01.840 Like there are some cases I've seen where in a daycare, women will take photos, inappropriate photos of children to send to their male partner. 0.97

01:52:08.900 the male partner will then put them on uh the internet for you know monetary reasons to uh

01:52:13.980 yeah well we know what that's for so um just to basically trust your gut instinct and just no

01:52:20.300 matter how well liked or how popular someone is or how good they seem with kids to be skeptical if

01:52:25.200 if you are getting that sense but with pedophilia it is biological um so there is and not to say

01:52:30.960 that all men who abuse children have pedophilia so there are some men who abuse sexually abuse kids

01:52:35.040 who don't actually have a sexual interest in kids, they'll do it because they're antisocial or

01:52:39.160 because they can't get access to an adult victim. But for men who actually prefer children over

01:52:44.860 adult partners, that is pedophilia. It's children under the age of 11. And there are differences in

01:52:50.540 the structure of their brain in terms of why they are attracted to kids. Because for most people,

01:52:58.440 when you see a child, it brings up feelings of affection and nurturing. And it's not,

01:53:04.300 obviously sexual excitement. So when that is the case, there is something that happened in utero

01:53:11.900 or in terms of their neurodevelopment that has led them to erroneously find children sexually

01:53:17.500 arousing. I just want to be very clear. I do not condone this idea that we should normalize

01:53:21.360 pedophilia or de-stigmatize pedophilia or that we should have sympathy for pedophiles. I think

01:53:26.840 the emphasis really should be on protecting children and speaking to the warning signs so

01:53:33.820 that children can be protected and public safety is held. But in terms of many, many sexual abusers

01:53:40.400 will claim that they were sexually abused or abused in childhood to try and evoke sympathy

01:53:44.440 from, say, law enforcement, or if they are convicted. Wait a minute, are you telling me

01:53:49.220 that's not true? Because I mean, like, you're kind of blowing my mind right now to say that it's

01:53:53.660 biological. I always thought the way you become an abuser, a molester of children is you were 0.66

01:54:00.740 probably molested yourself. There's a chance that they were molested, but that's not necessarily

01:54:05.680 why they are actually aroused by children. That might lead someone to abuse children in the future,

01:54:11.080 sexually abused children, but they're not necessarily actually sexually interested in

01:54:15.840 kids. So these men, if you test them using, say, philometry, which is what a test that's used to

01:54:20.900 determine male sexual arouse and their preference in terms of their partners, pedophilic men will 0.99

01:54:26.780 actually prefer they'll respond their penis well we'll talk about penises again their penis will 1.00

01:54:31.920 respond more to this is really disgusting for your audience just to preface this but will respond 1.00

01:54:37.080 more to children than adults whereas there are some men who will abuse children but they will

01:54:41.120 respond more to adults and this test is very difficult to fake it's considered the gold

01:54:44.560 standard within um say forensics so um that the abuse obviously can lead to someone being

01:54:50.140 antisocial being more likely to abuse kids for sexual reasons or otherwise but in terms of the

01:54:54.820 actual preference it's more likely something that is embedded in the brain and as a result it can't

01:54:58.900 be cured so i think the best approach in that case is either using medication say chemical castration

01:55:05.060 or definitely monitoring someone and not making society have to go along with this and say that

01:55:10.500 actually it's not such a big deal we should have sympathy and we should think about adding the p to

01:55:14.260 the lgbtqia plus plus plus acronym wow this is so so dark but important the thing you said about how

01:55:24.020 some of these guys will use their female partners for access to children reminded me of one of the

01:55:30.860 most fascinating and disturbing episodes we've ever done. It was about Jared, the subway guy.

01:55:36.580 And he's now been outed as a disgusting molester of children. And he wound up having his own 0.93

01:55:43.080 children too, which is also very dark. But he for years was in correspondence with this woman

01:55:50.480 who unbeknownst to him was working with the FBI undercover to try to catch him. She got to know

01:55:58.000 him socially. She was a radio host. He came on her program. They did something to promote heart

01:56:03.220 health together, totally benign. And he made some inappropriate comment to her where she was like,

01:56:08.840 what? And he was immediately on her radar. And she spent years thereafter trying to catch him,

01:56:17.060 trying to get him to say some of these things on tape, and she did. She got him on tape,

01:56:22.120 and she worked with the FBI. And of course, Jared would wind up behind bars. She came on this

01:56:27.300 program. We'll find the program number and tell it to the audience in a minute. We actually just

01:56:32.480 re-ran part of it on one of our Sunday super crime specials. But she talked about how

01:56:39.140 Jared wanted access to her two children. And she, of course, was never going to allow this,

01:56:47.380 but she pretended that she was, again, in order to get him on tape. And there was a disturbing

01:56:54.960 piece of tape where she talked to him about the subject of talking inappropriately about sex or

01:57:01.200 body parts with the children. And he wanted her desperately to do that because it would lower

01:57:09.060 their defenses for when he got there and wanted to do that in a sexualized way. We have the tape.

01:57:14.960 It's a quick piece of tape. Here it is. What kind of cute friends do your kids have? Oh,

01:57:19.360 they have very cute friends. They know everything about sex. It's all they ever talk about in school.

01:57:25.440 What I need you to do is to start talking about that kind of stuff in front of them.

01:57:29.040 You know, you would just say, oh, tell Jared what you're going to talk about in school.

01:57:32.960 Oh, Lord. What I need you to do is start talking about that stuff in front of them and tell them,

01:57:36.900 Oh, you know, tell Jared what you talk about at school.

01:57:40.120 I mean, it's so rare, Debra, you have it black and white on tape.

01:57:45.000 That's an actual molester of children engaging in the grooming, trying to set up what he thought was his female friend to help him groom the children.

01:57:54.640 And it just to me, that speaks to so much.

01:57:56.560 It speaks to what our teachers are doing in having inappropriate secrets with our children, whether it's about their LGBTQ identity or how many genders they may be or potential transitions that the child may or may not be thinking about.

01:58:10.100 The child, you know, the teacher wants to have a secret with a kid about all of it's so inappropriate and part of grooming.

01:58:17.140 And it's right there, black and white, that that is grooming behavior.

01:58:21.140 These schools allow it.

01:58:22.460 They it's policy in the New York City schools, the privates and now the public's, too, I believe, but definitely the privates for teachers not to tell the parents when a student says that he or she is gender confused or if they want to keep their so-called new identity private to have secrets about something as intimate as gender between a minor and a grown up.

01:58:44.400 it's so inappropriate absolutely inappropriate and it does it's like a gateway conversation

01:58:48.760 uh for parent for say teachers who do have more nefarious intentions to use that as a way to build

01:58:54.840 a bond and trust in a child to then potentially turn those sexual conversations sexual so not

01:59:00.700 just about now your gender identity or transition but then also potentially opportunities for them

01:59:06.000 to abuse a child but also i would say with the interview um that you were you mentioned actually

01:59:10.560 I remember listening to that episode when it came out initially, and that's a very common situation where you will see these predators because they're very cunning.

01:59:17.580 They will, in some cases, target single mothers.

01:59:19.920 And this is not to make single mothers out there feel paranoid, but just to be aware that in some cases, the men will want to date women and they'll offer, say, child care help or they'll offer support because they know that it's very difficult being a single mother.

01:59:34.100 And raising a child on one's own is very challenging in some cases and time consuming.

01:59:38.620 And so they'll offer to step in and do these tasks and help with that. But again, like I said, you have to be very skeptical of a man who wants to spend a lot of time raising a child who's not his own. Not to say that men can't be great stepfathers, but I'd say especially early on in your relationship with him and to be aware that some of these men do target single mothers because they know they're going to have an easier time getting access to vulnerable kids and having a lot of alone time with those kids.

02:00:01.940 this is reminding me of the story i told this to jillian michaels when she came on one time

02:00:06.860 we're talking about like the hazards of our jobs coming back to haunt us she's super fit and you

02:00:11.940 know attuned to healthy lifestyles with her kids and i'm super dark on the news stories of the day

02:00:18.980 and think that you know the shark's gonna get you in every ocean and there's gonna get molester

02:00:23.320 behind every corner it's dark but there was one time where my son was going off on a school

02:00:28.460 field trip and he was on the bus and all the other moms were like goodbye have a nice time

02:00:32.440 and i was like look out for the molesters like he looks back i'm like it'll be someone you trust 0.93

02:00:39.060 megan's so weird megan's secretly packing mace in her kids backpacks

02:00:46.460 it's dark but it is true like you point out they're going to be full of gifts like michael

02:00:56.180 Jackson, if you listen to this family, the Casios, these kids now grown up, talk about how he

02:01:03.940 lavished gifts upon them. And his whole home was a lair for, forgive the term, seducing children.

02:01:15.200 And what I just mean is like grooming them, making them love you, meaning making them want to spend

02:01:19.740 more time with you from the Neverland, you know, mini Disney he had out in front with all the rides

02:01:25.160 to all the Peter Pan stuff to the two-floor arcade.

02:01:28.580 His friend and lawyer, Mark Garagos,

02:01:30.040 told us about everything at his home

02:01:33.380 was meant to dazzle a young child.

02:01:38.020 And that was apparently his age group,

02:01:40.320 exactly the age group you said.

02:01:41.320 They all talked about how when they hit about 14,

02:01:44.260 he was done with them.

02:01:45.680 Although a couple of them,

02:01:46.600 like one of those kids said

02:01:47.660 he continued the relationship with this one boy

02:01:50.340 into, I think he said his young 20s.

02:01:54.080 So it kept going and it got more aggressive physically.

02:01:58.640 But for the most part, he was done with these children at age 14.

02:02:02.100 And there was a girl too, so it wasn't all little boys.

02:02:06.300 But that's, you know, as a parent, you got to ask yourself,

02:02:11.160 why is Michael Jackson sitting in my small home in middle-class suburban New Jersey

02:02:17.700 for months on end spending inordinate amounts of time

02:02:22.300 with my prepubescent children?

02:02:25.600 Why would any normal man be interested in doing that?

02:02:32.160 And like this is happening,

02:02:33.440 not at a Michael Jackson level, Deborah,

02:02:34.860 but this is happening across the country right now

02:02:37.700 in other different but similar scenarios

02:02:41.000 with maybe a coach who's just a little too attentive

02:02:44.500 or it used to be Boy Scout leaders could still be

02:02:46.920 um, obviously clergy, there's been an issue, but like, it will be a grown man who seems amazing

02:02:53.760 and is wowing your kid and possibly your whole family with his kindness and love and gifts and

02:03:01.260 attention. But you really have to keep asking that question, right? Like why would a grown man

02:03:06.860 be this interested in spending time with my minor child and God forbid you let them be alone? What,

02:03:12.780 you know, whatever your judgment, whether he's trustworthy or not, just this, this should be

02:03:16.900 no alone time between your minor child and any grownup. I mean, I don't know, maybe I'm being

02:03:23.460 too simplistic. Cause it's like, I think back to my own life. I took clarinet lessons. I was alone

02:03:27.380 with an old older man. He never laid a hand on me. You know, he taught me how to play the clarinet.

02:03:31.580 So it's like, it's tough for parents to know exactly where to draw the line, I guess.

02:03:35.540 Yeah. But I would say, cause there, I've had pushback, you know, I've had in conversations

02:03:39.320 with people about this and they'll say, you know, that's really excessive. Most people are not

02:03:42.960 predators but you have to be careful because the ones who are are really good at it and they're

02:03:48.020 very good at tricking people and they're very charismatic and i would say also until you know

02:03:53.240 how good these men and women are at deceiving people and hiding the things that they do and 0.79

02:03:59.440 until you've sat across the table from a child sexual abuser and had a conversation with them

02:04:04.360 and see the way their minds mind works i think most people we are fortunate to have a bias to

02:04:09.500 see the good in people and we assume that these things don't happen and these things won't happen

02:04:12.940 to us but the reality is these things do happen i would also say within families um you know i've

02:04:18.700 heard from many people and some of the cases that i've seen when i was working in forensics would

02:04:22.100 consist of families in which there was intergenerational abuse so say say there was a

02:04:27.560 father who abused the daughter and then went on to abuse the granddaughters as well and so if

02:04:32.280 there's any abuse like that in the family to please please keep your children away from your

02:04:36.440 parents because if they abused you they're likely going to abuse your children as well and there

02:04:40.540 were times when you we'd have patients come into the clinic i was at and um in some cases the the

02:04:45.780 mother would side with the their boyfriend or husband or stepfather over their own child which

02:04:51.020 is also heartbreaking so this is so dark i don't want to go keep going down this rabbit hole with

02:04:54.880 your audience but just basically please you know there we we like to see good in people but i think

02:04:58.660 it's important to be aware also because child sexual abuse is devastating for children and if

02:05:03.460 it can be prevented whatever whatever can be done to prevent this and lower the rates of it happening

02:05:08.180 I think is very important. Yeah. Amen to that. All right. Back on the subject of healthy adult

02:05:14.400 consensual relationships and why they're not happening. I don't know what the answer is.

02:05:21.820 Like less SSRIs is my own personal prescription, given what I think is part of the problem, but

02:05:27.480 you're not going to get rid of the iPhone. You're not going to get rid of Apple TV and Netflix.

02:05:32.680 you know, you're, you're, we're trying to get rid of the DEI preferences so that men still have a 0.69

02:05:39.920 fighting shot in society, right? Like that would be one antidote. President Trump in a way is an

02:05:44.940 antidote. Um, the return of masculinity and the stopping of the shaming of toxic masculinity,

02:05:50.180 which is just, you know, nine times out of 10 men being men who have in a good way, aggression and

02:05:56.580 who are strong and who are not afraid of confrontation. Like those are not bad things.

02:06:00.880 they've kept society alive. So we're making some progress, but it's very interesting to me that

02:06:06.880 you say this is happening all over the world. It's not just an American thing. So what does

02:06:11.720 that tell you in terms of finding solutions? It's something global. Right. I think social media is

02:06:16.840 a big piece of it. And also this increasing animosity between the sexes. So I try to be

02:06:23.400 very open-minded in terms of the feedback to this book. And I've had angry responses from both men

02:06:28.480 and women saying that I don't go far enough in terms of

02:06:30.580 blaming the opposite sex. So I think I did a fair job 0.99

02:06:32.720 in terms of calling out both sides 0.61

02:06:34.280 and what I hear from young men is they really

02:06:36.620 blame feminism for this. So feminism

02:06:38.400 is pretty much across the entire developed world 0.99

02:06:40.600 and they feel that women 1.00

02:06:42.520 are unfairly privileged. Now I think feminism 1.00

02:06:44.780 at its most 0.99

02:06:46.260 basic, fundamental

02:06:47.820 reason was a positive 0.99

02:06:50.820 thing in terms of getting equal rights for women 1.00

02:06:52.620 allowing us to vote and

02:06:54.600 to pursue an education. But

02:06:56.720 I do believe feminism has gone too far

02:06:58.440 in its modern iteration in that it in some cases advocates for hating men and against

02:07:03.180 subjugating men so young men are understandably aggrieved by this and they're saying we just want

02:07:08.140 to take all rights away from women now at the extreme say like look what feminism has done

02:07:11.720 feminism is the cause of this and we want nothing to do with modern day women quote unquote because 0.95

02:07:16.300 they're you know impossible to deal with and then the other side of that is young women see 0.73

02:07:20.220 the response to the extreme feminism which is young men now saying we want women who are

02:07:25.220 traditional who are just going to obey our orders essentially stay at home not work um have a large

02:07:31.220 family not not talk back to us not have a job and not vote and these young women are terrified and 0.74

02:07:37.580 saying well this generation of men wants to hold this back and take our rights away not realizing

02:07:41.600 i don't think all the young men who hold these views are actually at the core hateful women i

02:07:47.380 mean some of them might be but i do think some of it is a response to the extreme how extreme

02:07:52.440 feminism has become because over time young men have actually become more feminist but this is

02:07:56.980 gen z is now turning in the opposite direction and saying no feminism has gone too far so i see this

02:08:02.300 trend continuing because neither side is willing to back down so you're going to see say young

02:08:07.740 women going more and more and more to the left more feminist and the men are going to go more

02:08:11.920 to the right and more i guess anti-feminist and so that's that's been one trend but i think also

02:08:17.520 in terms of solutions which i think is very important trying to get off of these platforms

02:08:22.660 trying to if you do consume this content it's basically impossible to get away from on social

02:08:26.240 media especially if you are young or the algorithm picks up that you find it interesting they're

02:08:29.980 going to bombard you with toxic clips of people complaining about their relationships and

02:08:34.300 marriages people being uh acting egregiously on dates in some cases it's couples pretending that

02:08:40.500 they're fighting or that they're i've seen this one genre of content in which the man will say

02:08:46.480 you're not going to sleep with me tonight okay i'm not paying for your dinner and it's actually

02:08:50.740 a skit and but it's not clear that it's a skit and i don't know that the content creators intended

02:08:55.060 for people to know that it's a skit but because it becomes obvious when you look at the rest of

02:08:58.020 their content that it's just rage bait but you see millions of views on these clips and or in

02:09:03.300 these videos and i just think of the young people again who are being exposed to this and don't

02:09:07.020 realize that they're basically being manipulated into thinking this is really common this behavior

02:09:11.440 is really common because it's intentionally trying to infuriate them and make them hate

02:09:15.680 the opposite sex so that they'll keep clicking on other things. So that's one thing I'd say the 0.99

02:09:19.600 other part of that from a biological perspective is to, you know, I talk in sex station about how

02:09:24.660 the birth control pill, like you said, antidepressants and also low testosterone are

02:09:28.820 affecting this whole situation in that, you know, birth control pill halts women's ovulation. So

02:09:35.020 that's going to affect how their sex drive and it affects their interest in sex and the sexual

02:09:39.360 signaling that they may or may not be putting out towards men in their vicinity. And then also with

02:09:44.580 men's low testosterone due to potentially you know plastics pesticides synthetic estrogens in

02:09:52.340 our environment so if men have low testosterone they are not going to feel good about themselves

02:09:56.980 they're not going to be interested in taking risks and they're going to have a low sex drive but also 0.98

02:10:00.840 low motivation outside of the bedroom to achieve goals and those are the things women look for 0.99

02:10:04.980 in men they find that sexy so if you have all that and then the other thing is as women continue 1.00

02:10:10.120 getting more successful that's going to make it even harder for them to find an appropriate mate 0.93

02:10:14.160 because they're already more successful than most men

02:10:16.660 and they're just going to continue being more successful

02:10:18.300 the longer they're single

02:10:19.500 because they're just going to keep working.

02:10:21.240 So I would say we need to really help young men

02:10:23.380 get back on track.

02:10:24.480 I don't think it needs to be seen 0.96

02:10:25.780 as taking away from women's rights.

02:10:27.620 I do understand why some young women may feel

02:10:29.840 that it is a threat to them

02:10:31.160 because they've been indoctrinated

02:10:32.360 by the education system.

02:10:35.700 And I think our culture as well,

02:10:37.140 like man-hating is really much seen

02:10:38.760 as status quo nowadays.

02:10:40.260 But if we as women don't appreciate 1.00

02:10:42.080 being discriminated against,

02:10:43.420 as we were in the past, I don't think it's fair for us to turn around and now say it's okay because

02:10:47.940 it benefits us to do the same to men. So I would say in general, meet in real life. Don't be on

02:10:52.400 apps. Don't be on social media. Women, if you are single and looking to date, you have to make it

02:10:57.000 so obvious to men that you are into them. I went through the scientific research in terms of how 0.80

02:11:01.880 to flirt because I'm a very naturally awkward person. So I thought, okay, I can't give my

02:11:05.160 audience advice if I don't know what I'm talking about. So one thing you can do is smile very,

02:11:09.800 very widely if you see an attractive man make lots of eye contact i asked you know my audience

02:11:14.420 what can women do they say you have to make it so obvious just keep looking at him honestly and

02:11:18.620 smile it that compels a man to come over and speak to you hopefully he will be single and for men i

02:11:26.060 say get touch his arm yeah yeah that's the other thing you will see that's one thing i would say

02:11:30.380 if you touch a man's arm hopefully if you know him but uh you'll notice his body language will

02:11:35.580 change a man will he'll relax if he's into you so that's one thing women can look for and the other

02:11:41.300 thing i would say for men is to if you are struggling to take care of your physical health

02:11:45.220 and your mental health is linked to that so eat unprocessed foods you know there's studies showing

02:11:49.860 that eating ultra processed foods or eliminating ultra processed foods from your diet can actually

02:11:54.760 improve your mental health especially depression look into if you are experiencing low testosterone

02:11:59.840 why that might be i think what the current administration is doing in terms of being

02:12:03.640 focused very much on health and, and just wellness is so important. And I don't understand why it's

02:12:08.540 being denigrated as a quote, like right wing crazy person agenda, because we could all benefit from

02:12:14.680 being more tuned to that. Yeah, amen. These are great recommendations. They it's crazy that they

02:12:21.140 do need to learn how to actually flirt with the opposite sex and like telegraph I'm into you. And 0.99

02:12:26.000 I would love for you to ask me out, or I'd love to go out with you, whatever, and beyond. But yeah,

02:12:31.380 fine. Practice makes perfect. Put down the phone and give it a shot. What's the worst that can

02:12:35.200 happen? And for guys, I would say one other thing. Humor is amazing. If you can make her laugh,

02:12:40.340 you can make her yours. So like if you are naturally clever, even if you're not the most

02:12:45.660 handsome guy in the world, you got a great shot because I do think women love somebody who can

02:12:50.740 make them laugh. And I think we all see that as a long-term source of happiness for us. You know,

02:12:55.980 that's well beyond, I don't know, brawn or your bank account. Okay, Debra, this has been

02:13:03.680 fascinating. Thank you so much for giving us so much time today. Again, the name of her book

02:13:07.000 is Sextinction, The Decline of Sex and the Future of Intimacy. Such a pleasure seeing you again.

02:13:14.400 Thank you, Megan.

02:13:15.720 Okay. And then tomorrow we are back with Anna Kasparian. That'll be fun. And we will bring

02:13:21.560 you the story of Katie Porter and what she's saying about that infamous clip in which she

02:13:28.000 berates the staffer. I'm sorry. It's like the, we had a whole news hour planned for the first hour

02:13:32.700 of the show today. And then that South Carolina thing broke with Alex Murdaugh and we went in

02:13:37.160 a different direction, but we're back on the news tomorrow and we look forward to doing that with

02:13:40.360 you then. See you there. Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show. No BS, no agenda and no fear.

02:13:51.560 Thank you.

The Megyn Kelly Show - May 13, 2026

Alex Murdaugh Convictions OVERTURNED, with Vinnie Politan and Charlie Condon, and the TRUTH About the ＂Sex Recession,＂ with Dr. Debra Soh ｜ Ep. 1316

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