The Megyn Kelly Show - Alex Murdaugh Crimes, Jodi Arias Trial, ＂Bad Vegan＂ Deep Dive - Megyn's ＂True Crime＂ Mega-Episode

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00:01:00.000 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:01:12.240 Hey everyone, it's me, Megyn Kelly, and welcome to today's true crime mega episode.

00:01:17.520 We are diving into three wild stories. The shocking criminal history of Alec Murdoch,

00:01:24.440 Unbelievable case.

00:01:25.860 The Jodi Arias trial over the murder of her boyfriend, Travis Alexander.

00:01:30.740 And did you watch Bad Vegan on Netflix?

00:01:35.140 We talked to the woman at the center of that entire bizarre drama.

00:01:41.700 Love the true crime shows.

00:01:44.220 Enjoy, and we'll see you Monday.

00:01:46.740 Today, we are diving deep into the case of Alec Murdoch, and there are updates in this

00:01:51.880 incredible case, believe it or not.

00:01:53.740 His story begins much earlier than the crimes that made national headlines over the past

00:01:58.420 few years, and no one has covered the story quite like the Wall Street Journal's Valerie

00:02:03.520 Borlein, who wrote the book The Devil at His Elbow.

00:02:07.180 We get into everything from Murdoch's family history to the details of his downfall and

00:02:12.760 the new info.

00:02:15.020 Valerie, welcome.

00:02:15.800 Thank you so much for being here.

00:02:17.600 Thank you.

00:02:19.220 Okay, so this is all so fascinating.

00:02:20.960 And one of the most eye-opening things I read was about Alec Murdoch's background.

00:02:28.380 He comes from a long line of deeply ethically problematic people, which I did not know.

00:02:36.700 All you ever heard about him was that he came from this very storied family.

00:02:40.140 They were lifelong solicitors or like the prosecutors in their town in South Carolina,

00:02:45.000 very well respected.

00:02:45.920 They controlled everything.

00:02:47.100 It was far more nefarious than that.

00:02:48.940 Can you take us back?

00:02:50.960 Oh, it absolutely was. I mean, I think one of the biggest surprises I had researching this book was that every crime that was eventually convicted of had some echo in the past. And that includes like violence against women or overtures of violence against women. That includes insurance fraud.

00:03:08.860 Like by the side of the road, there was an act of insurance fraud that started the family dynasty, stealing from clients, drug trafficking.

00:03:17.180 There were echoes in the past for every single crime we're talking about, even a boat wreck that caused really a traumatic injury.

00:03:25.460 So that surprised me, too.

00:03:27.040 It wasn't just Alec.

00:03:28.680 It was the history going back to 1920 of this family.

00:03:33.120 Yes.

00:03:33.380 I mean, it really does show you, you know, if you have a family, a father, a grandfather who are committing crimes and teaching you either explicitly or implicitly that that's OK, your odds of becoming a criminal are obviously much higher.

00:03:48.580 But hello, women of the world, pay attention, pay attention to your your spouse, the guys you're dating. 1.00

00:03:54.160 It can work the other way around, too. And what they come from, who they come from.

00:03:58.620 So his great-grandfather, Randolph Murdoch Sr., basically committed suicide and insurance fraud at the same time?

00:04:11.000 That's right.

00:04:11.960 And I was in Hampton just last week.

00:04:13.700 I actually was standing at the train tracks just south of Almeda, the home place that Alec went the night of the homicides.

00:04:21.600 His great-grandfather, Randolph Sr., was a very prominent man.

00:04:25.480 I mean, every meal he ate was front-page news.

00:04:27.920 Like, where was he now? He was the district attorney for four counties in the low country

00:04:32.700 of South Carolina. He was, he was very sick. He was 53 years old. He was, he was dying. He was

00:04:39.980 at the end of his life. He had kidney failure at a time when there just, you didn't, there was no

00:04:44.300 cure, right? There was no dialysis. He was broke. He had been a big investor in the, in a bank and

00:04:50.300 then the bank failed. And through the depression, he was just, I found documents down at the

00:04:55.060 courthouse in Hampton, where he just would say, there's no chance I can ever pay these people

00:04:59.140 back. So he was broke, he was dying, and he knew how to do one thing incredibly well, which was

00:05:05.140 sue the railroad, which at that time in 1940 was one of the only entities worth suing.

00:05:11.240 So what happened was he was driving back from a poker game in Yemesee, a little town right on the

00:05:16.540 Hampton County line, at one in the morning, hottest day of the summer, 90 some degrees.

00:05:21.940 He stops short of his home and turns onto a deserted train tracks and is at the base of it.

00:05:29.320 And as the train is coming, and y'all, if you grew up in a small town near a railroad, you know what time the train comes through.

00:05:36.340 The train is coming north, and you can hear it for miles.

00:05:40.020 It's coming north.

00:05:41.120 It's bearing down on those train tracks.

00:05:42.440 He speeds up onto the tracks themselves, and they're blowing the whistle.

00:05:47.240 They're flashing the light.

00:05:48.500 It's a clear moonlit night, and he sees them, and instead of driving off, he waves at them.

00:05:55.600 And what happens is there's a coroner's jury, and the coroner, of course, was a protege of Randolph

00:06:01.880 Sr. The sheriff was a protege of Randolph Sr. There was an inquest the next morning, and guess what?

00:06:08.060 The local coroner's jury found that in spite of the testimony of the engineer and others,

00:06:13.380 It was an accident, and it cleared the way for Randolph Murdoch Jr.,

00:06:18.420 Alec's grandfather, to sue the railroad for the equivalent of millions of dollars,

00:06:23.220 which is what he did successfully.

00:06:25.600 Is Randolph Murdoch Jr. Buster?

00:06:30.540 Randolph Murdoch Jr. is old Buster, and old Buster was a real force to be reckoned with.

00:06:36.880 He was solicitor from 1940, when he was 25 years old, to 1986.

00:06:41.960 So Roosevelt to Reagan.

00:06:44.000 And he even stayed in that office beyond that time.

00:06:46.500 The legislature finally essentially forced him.

00:06:48.760 They created a rule that essentially forced him to retire, but he kept going into the

00:06:52.040 office as a volunteer solicitor.

00:06:54.260 So Randolph Murdoch Jr., Old Buster, Elec Murdoch idolized him.

00:06:59.240 He told many people that he wished he'd been born in Old Buster's day, because in those 0.66

00:07:03.820 days, what you said was what the truth was.

00:07:06.620 And Old Buster, he ruled with an iron fist.

00:07:11.560 He was one of those guys that would rather be feared than loved.

00:07:15.260 And he also continued fraud and potential violence against women.

00:07:22.400 So Old Buster, I was able to pull 900 pages from the National Archives of the records from his trial, his federal trial.

00:07:31.440 The feds charged him with bootlegging, actually running the largest bootlegging ring in the South.

00:07:37.760 He was the ringleader.

00:07:38.880 They charged two dozen people.

00:07:40.680 Old Buster, Ellick's grandfather, was charged with leading this entire ring in Colleton County.

00:07:46.100 And he was accused of taking a cash bribe in the hallway of the Colleton County Courthouse, which is the hallway that we went in and out every day of Ellick's Murdoch trial.

00:07:57.100 He was accused of intimidating witnesses, buying off witnesses, and eventually of tampering with

00:08:05.380 the jury by buying off the foreman. And he was one of the only people in that entire weeks-long

00:08:10.680 federal trial that was acquitted. So there's a history of, you know, Alec Murdoch was convicted

00:08:19.080 of drug trafficking. His grandfather was credibly accused and narrowly escaped being convicted of

00:08:25.640 bootlegging. So again, there's echoes in the past. Tell us about the mistress who got on the wrong

00:08:30.280 side of Alec Murdoch's grandfather. So there was testimony in Alec's trial, as you remember,

00:08:38.180 there was testimony that Alec was somewhat of a philanderer. And that certainly is a history in

00:08:43.660 the family going back generations. His grandfather, Old Buster, had a mistress, several, but one in

00:08:51.940 particular, who he was in touch with for many, many years. And her name was Ruth Fox. And Ruth

00:08:57.620 Fox was married to a local, like a Northern baron who came down and bought a plantation. And she was

00:09:05.120 from one of the nation's first families, a really impressive woman in her own right. And she had

00:09:11.120 been in the Navy during World War II, like training pilots, which is kind of wild to think

00:09:17.600 about what kind of woman was doing that in the 40s. And she met Buster and asked for his help 1.00

00:09:22.100 in getting out of her obligations. He's like, I know everybody. I'll know all U.S. senators. I'll

00:09:26.180 help you get out of this out of this bind. They got to know each other. And what you know, a year

00:09:31.440 later, she is pregnant with his child. She goes to it's just such an incredible story. She goes to

00:09:37.320 the house and we're talking about the same house that Alec went to the night of the homicides at

00:09:42.560 He goes, she goes to the house, knocks on the door, speaks to Alex's grandmother and says, you know, you have a son.

00:09:50.160 I have a son. These boys should meet. And the grandmother says, you know, don't let my name come out of your mouth ever again.

00:09:56.460 Go away. And it was it was a stunning thing because she had survived, essentially, when she had told old Buster that she was pregnant.

00:10:06.900 He had tried to have her killed. He had a fixer, the story goes, he had a fixer of one of many

00:10:12.960 who laid in wait underneath her porch one night and got a little bit too drunk and fell asleep

00:10:19.000 and didn't kill her. So there was just like this incredible, incredible echoes throughout this

00:10:23.200 story. Isn't it amazing? Yes, it is amazing. I mean, I cannot, you must've been just slack-jawed

00:10:29.200 when you read up about the direct line from which he came and it makes sense of everything.

00:10:35.600 So it didn't stop there. It didn't even skip a generation.

00:10:39.480 Alec's father also had a history of paying people off to cover up a boat accident, which, of course, would set off Alec's own story with a different boat accident as well.

00:10:52.080 Well, there was certainly a terrible boat accident in 1998 from the same island, like Murdoch Island, where you'll remember the tragic boat wreck that killed Mallory Beach in 2019.

00:11:05.900 They took the Murdoch family boat from the family compound, which is called Murdoch Island.

00:11:10.860 Back in 1998, Alec's younger brother was having a party on Murdoch Island.

00:11:17.220 There was a boat there, and it's incredible.

00:11:19.300 I couldn't believe it when I saw the documents.

00:11:20.940 It had been seized in a drug raid by the solicitor's office, so by Old Buster, and he liked the boat.

00:11:27.540 So he kept it for his own use at the island, and everyone, the family used it.

00:11:32.200 So it's late at night.

00:11:34.460 There's some guests there that wanted to take the boat home rather than the roads because they didn't want to get in trouble.

00:11:40.420 They've been drinking for many hours.

00:11:42.420 And these young men set off on a boat ride home, and it's tricky.

00:11:48.540 We know from what happened with the wreck that killed Mallory Beach.

00:11:51.860 It's very shallow waters and places.

00:11:53.860 They hit a shoal and stopped and then immediately started back up and didn't realize that one of the guests had fallen overboard and it got run over by the motor and sustained a traumatic brain injury.

00:12:05.820 And, you know, I've got hundreds of pages of documents from the state that show that the Murdochs were involved in trying to make that wreck go away.

00:12:16.380 even some of the same DNR, the natural resources officers, even some of the same officers who were

00:12:22.800 involved in the Mallory Beach Rec were, and they were working that night as well. So the echoes in

00:12:28.580 the past are just, sometimes I couldn't believe it. I really was gobsmacked many times in a row.

00:12:33.300 Yes, same. I'm having the same reaction just sitting here. So then of course we get to Alec

00:12:39.500 and this whole thing that we watched, this double murder trial in which he was found guilty,

00:12:46.380 of killing his wife and his own son

00:12:48.520 was set off by that boating accident.

00:12:52.440 The second one, not the one you discussed

00:12:54.600 where the woman was run over,

00:12:56.980 but more recently with the younger generation

00:12:59.580 while Alec was out on a boat, was drinking

00:13:03.140 and they had an accident

00:13:06.020 and Mallory Beach was thrown from the boat

00:13:08.820 and wasn't found for some time later

00:13:11.620 and she was dead.

00:13:12.660 and that old Murdoch instinct to cover it up, run cover for those involved, or especially

00:13:20.060 for Alec, kicked in and would set off a chain of events that would ultimately destroy the Murdoch

00:13:27.960 family. And it's so poignant to look at pictures of Mallory. She was 19 years old when she died.

00:13:34.360 She was just full of life. I've gotten to know her family over the course of reporting this story.

00:13:40.060 And it was it was Alex Boat, but it was his son, Paul Murdoch, who was 19 at the time, who was who was who was driving.

00:13:47.220 I mean, I think the facts established that he was driving.

00:13:49.540 He was criminally charged with it.

00:13:51.420 And so he he's he is incredibly drunk.

00:13:55.400 He drank a lot.

00:13:56.560 I talked with people that knew the family.

00:13:59.360 He had been sneaking beer since he was eight years old and at a certain point, not even sneaking them.

00:14:05.960 So he was he was he was very, very drunk.

00:14:08.360 He had 19 drinks that night.

00:14:10.300 His BAC when he got to the hospital was 0.286.

00:14:14.640 But he was a person, even at 19, who'd been drinking for numbers of years and had been

00:14:20.900 driving drunk for numbers of years, according to people I talked to who were involved in

00:14:25.780 wrecks with him before.

00:14:27.660 But so he gets angry at his girlfriend, who's one of the passengers on the boat, confronts

00:14:33.780 her.

00:14:34.200 She says, you're too drunk to drive.

00:14:35.860 Give everybody the keys. 0.94

00:14:37.240 Slaps her.

00:14:37.900 spits in her face, goes back to the wheel of the boat and floors it, the equivalent of 28 miles 0.81

00:14:44.840 an hour. And they're going through a very narrow, very shallow path and hit a bridge that fast. And

00:14:50.160 Mallory is thrown overboard and never resurfaces. And what all the evidence, I've got thousands of

00:14:56.140 pages of documents, some of them public, many of them not, not many of them that had not been

00:15:03.100 reviewed before that just showed that there was when elec got to the hospital that night where

00:15:08.900 these young people had been on the boat was he went room to room to room trying to get everyone

00:15:13.220 on the same page he had his his his grandfather old buster's badge outside of his pocket pretending

00:15:20.280 to be a law enforcement officer and i have his cell phone records and have tracked his path that

00:15:24.840 night do you remember when he testified that he put blue lights blue lights and siren on the

00:15:28.980 suburban that he was driving. It was almost physically impossible for him to get from

00:15:34.960 Moselle, where he and Maggie were living at the time, to the hospital unless he was going

00:15:41.100 fabulously fast, 80 or 90 miles an hour. And I think it stands to reason, and I argue this in

00:15:46.400 the book, that he almost certainly used lights to get to the hospital before the other families and

00:15:52.060 get everyone on the same page. But it really was his undoing. The reason that he said he wanted

00:15:57.200 to live in old Buster's time is that, you know, there was so much evidence in the video cameras

00:16:02.160 in the hospital that night, so many statements, there was so much, everything is recorded, right?

00:16:07.060 You know, and he could not outrun modernity. And in the end, that night and his actions,

00:16:13.620 the night of the boat wreck really was the beginning of the end of the family.

00:16:17.480 For among other reasons, he was then sued by the Beach family. And that in the course of

00:16:23.660 that lawsuit, he would have to produce discovery, speaking to his economic status, his financial

00:16:30.040 data, and so on. And he was, we know, separately now, running a massive fraud, stealing from his

00:16:35.980 law firm, had a massive drug problem, or so he testified, and was very worried this was all

00:16:42.140 going to come out. He would be exposed. And at the same time, his law firm, was this coincidental?

00:16:48.500 Was this coincidental, Valerie, that the law firm started an investigation of Alec at the same time

00:16:53.360 for possible ethical breaches, or were those two things related, the lawsuit and the law firm

00:16:58.840 getting interested in him? Well, it's all kind of woven together. And what happened in the

00:17:03.480 immediate aftermath of the boat wreck is that Mallory's family was having a tough time finding

00:17:08.760 a lawyer to represent their interest. And Renee Beach, Mallory's mom, tells the story of being down

00:17:14.860 at the landing where the boat had come to rest and wanting to go down there and see

00:17:21.280 where her daughter was, where she was the last time she was spotted. And the police were very,

00:17:27.840 very kind, but said, I'm sorry, you can't go down there. Here's a case of water for you and your

00:17:31.880 family while you wait. And there was a moment where Randolph Murdoch III, Alec's dad, and Maggie,

00:17:38.540 his wife, came down in their pickup truck. And he waves at the officer and waves him through.

00:17:45.520 And Renee Beach realized then, oh my gosh, this is not a vigil. I thought I was at a vigil

00:17:50.540 mourning my daughter. This is a crime scene. And the family that's been the law in this area for

00:17:57.440 100 years is in charge of it. I need a lawyer. And she made a critical decision, which is to

00:18:03.020 hire a lawyer to represent the family's interest. And that lawyer was a key player and a big

00:18:08.340 character in this book. And his name is Mark Tinsley. And there's no enemy like your former

00:18:13.860 friend. He was very close to Ellick. He knew the playbook. He had a card key to get in and out of

00:18:20.100 Murdoch Law Firm at will. And he recognized those relationships. He's like, oh, I know he knows

00:18:25.540 these particular officers because of my own personal information. And once he decided to

00:18:30.480 take the case, take the Beaches case, he was relentless in showing that Alec and potentially

00:18:38.720 the officers who were involved in protecting the scene were really, really protecting Paul

00:18:45.740 from charges. And so he filed a lawsuit in very short order. And that lawsuit sought, like you

00:18:51.320 said, all of Ellick's financial records. It's just a standard part of a civil lawsuit to say,

00:18:55.320 how much insurance do you have? What resources could you potentially pay if there was a judgment?

00:19:00.240 And Ellick knew more than anyone else that he had been robbing his personal injury clients,

00:19:06.460 the poorest of the poor, for more than a decade. And he knew what any serious inquiry would do.

00:19:11.820 And so he had to stave that off. And in the end, it was his undoing.

00:19:17.640 So he killed his own wife and his son, Paul, who had been at the helm for that boating accident.

00:19:25.520 And it was an attempt to garner sympathy, like to make him a sympathetic character so that his law firm would move away, would stop investigating him.

00:19:39.280 so that the lawsuit involving Paul would be less strong

00:19:44.580 because, you know, the main culprit would be gone

00:19:48.120 and who would put this poor man now through the torture

00:19:51.460 of seeing a civil lawsuit through.

00:19:53.260 It was an effort to just change his own financial

00:19:56.880 and reputational fortunes.

00:19:59.440 No, I think the prosecution argued that very effectively.

00:20:04.080 And one of the things that I think that Mark Tinsley said

00:20:07.280 on the stand is, you know, personal injury lawyers don't think like other people. Their gift,

00:20:14.640 their understanding of a successful one is understanding emotion, like what might motivate

00:20:20.220 a jury to pay blood money and a lot of it in a case. They understand what makes people tick.

00:20:28.360 And he knew that, you know, the day of the homicides, June 7th of 2021, and I'm sure we'll

00:20:34.780 talk about this, he had been confronted over some of that missing money that he had been stealing,

00:20:38.920 $792,000, not a small amount. He knew that the law firm was on to him. And he knew also that his

00:20:47.340 father was dying, the patriarch of this family who had also loaned him a million dollars over time,

00:20:53.420 and who he had just been texting with his buddy at the bank, oh, I'm going to get another loan

00:20:57.580 from my dad for some money he was short. And his dad was dying. He knew this lawsuit was pending

00:21:04.100 about his financials. He had been confronted over the missing money. And he also knew that Paul was

00:21:08.880 a mess. I mean, sadly, and may he rest in peace, Paul's actions, drunken actions, did not cease

00:21:17.240 with the boat wreck. There's testimony that even just 10 days before he was killed, he was on a

00:21:23.840 boat drinking, taking some people out, and he had to call his father to get out of it. So Paul's

00:21:29.580 behavior was not de-escalating. If anything, his behavior is getting worse. So yes, I think that

00:21:36.020 the state made a really effective argument that he needed to do something to become, instead of the

00:21:41.140 object of suspicion, an object of sympathy. And what more would do that except becoming, instead

00:21:47.300 of somebody, a potential thief, a grieving father, a grieving husband, someone who was the victim of

00:21:55.320 horrible crime. And for months, he was right. It completely changed the subject.

00:22:01.020 And he had, prior to getting arrested, done what I guess it was his great-grandfather did,

00:22:09.360 which was attempt to create a suicide situation that would lead to an insurance payout. I mean,

00:22:15.360 now it's like kind of all connecting. It's all connecting. And it really is extraordinary. So

00:22:21.020 over the course of the summer of 2021, he did almost get away with the murder of Maggie and

00:22:26.020 Paul. He really did. And he almost got away with the thefts that he's now admitted to

00:22:30.540 dozens and dozens of people, millions and millions of dollars by borrowing more money,

00:22:36.840 borrowing money from his best friend, Chris Wilson, borrowing money from getting fronted

00:22:42.040 money and trying to repay the $792,000 back to the law firm, which he did. And they stopped,

00:22:48.400 They kind of let it go until, and that goes in July and in August, until the Thursday before Labor Day weekend, his paralegal is in his office looking for some paperwork, which she knows he doesn't like, but she really needed it.

00:23:02.760 She lifts up this folder, finds the check that was missing that proved that he had been stealing.

00:23:08.900 So what happens then is the gig is up.

00:23:11.040 Alex confronted by his brother, his law partner, and many other law partners. And they say,

00:23:16.560 you've been stealing, we've got evidence you've been stealing from the firm, you have to go.

00:23:20.080 So he gets fired that Friday of Labor Day weekend. And what happens the next morning?

00:23:24.520 Saturday morning, he tries to fake his own death on the side of the road. And what he said was an

00:23:29.720 insurance fraud attempt to get money for his surviving son, Buster. But what really looks

00:23:35.740 like another way to change the subject just like he had done back June 7th with the homicides of

00:23:41.140 his wife and son. It really is stranger than stranger than fiction.

00:23:53.100 Getting ready for a game means being ready for anything like packing a spare stick. I like to

00:23:58.500 be prepared. That's why I remember 988 Canada's suicide crisis helpline. It's good to know just

00:24:04.680 in case anyone can call or text for free confidential support from a trained responder

00:24:09.460 anytime 988 suicide crisis helpline is funded by the government in canada

00:24:14.440 do we think he did not intend to die then when that that guy who was next to homeless i mean

00:24:23.980 that guy seemed you know not like a sophisticated character when he got him to quote shoot him but

00:24:30.000 just grazed his head. That was always so confusing to me. And I'm like, was this some sort of a

00:24:35.000 sharpshooter? How did the guy manage to actually barely connect with him to the point where it

00:24:40.520 looked like he actually had been shot at, but not so much that he actually killed him?

00:24:46.560 Yeah. No, there are many theories about what happened actually at the side of the road,

00:24:51.720 but the man you're talking about, Curtis Eddie Smith, will tell you, and he said it. He's like,

00:24:57.120 if I'd shot him, he'd have been dead. So that what he believes happened is there was a struggle,

00:25:02.780 there was a struggle over the gun. And he has said, he thinks that Ellick was trying to frame

00:25:08.240 him, that they were, they were struggling over the gun and maybe Ellick was going to,

00:25:12.480 Ellick was bigger, like 6'4", 200 pounds. I mean, can he overpower this? And Curtis Eddie Smith,

00:25:19.960 his cousin Eddie is a smaller guy. He's been out on disability for a number of years. Ellick was

00:25:24.840 a disability lawyer, and then frame him. And you remember when Dick Harpoulian and Jim Griffin,

00:25:31.220 Ellick's lawyers, they said in court filings, they're like, you know, the real killer is Eddie

00:25:36.160 Smith. He was the one who killed Maggie and Paul. And so one of the theories is that Ellick may have

00:25:43.260 been trying to kill Eddie and then say, see, he was coming after me to kill me the same way that

00:25:47.760 he killed my wife and son. And it's strange. I don't know if you remember, but he was paying,

00:25:52.660 Eddie was cashing a lot of checks for ELEC over a number of years, and the checks accelerated that summer, the hundreds of thousands of dollars that ELEC was effectively paying Eddie in a way.

00:26:05.640 So was he going to say, he was blackmailing me, look at these payments?

00:26:08.920 There are multiple ways to look at what actually happened there.

00:26:12.420 But one of them is that if you look at the photos, and the defense released the photos, they signed a HIPAA release and released all the photos.

00:26:21.480 there are people locally that say, that's not a cut in his head. He fell, and that's the gravel

00:26:28.560 on the side of the road that caused him to be cut. But one thing I should add about Cousin Eddie

00:26:34.580 is that he's actually a cousin. I could not believe it, but if you go back more than 100

00:26:41.480 years to the Civil War, Ellick's great-great-grandfather, so Randolph Sr.'s father,

00:26:46.440 was an officer in the Southern Army.

00:26:52.440 And so was Eddie's great-great-grandfather.

00:26:56.540 And they were brothers.

00:26:57.460 His great-great-grandfather was named Lazarus Murdoch.

00:26:59.740 He was what they call a fire eater.

00:27:02.700 So he was an especially virulent anti-union.

00:27:08.060 He made these incredible speeches

00:27:11.020 that got picked up by national media

00:27:13.560 and actually were read by Abraham Lincoln.

00:27:15.280 So Eddie is, he says, he's like, I'm half Murdoch, and he's right.

00:27:19.960 He's a part Murdoch.

00:27:22.140 Do we know, do we ever figure out, and by the way, just for the audience, I'm talking

00:27:25.840 today to Valerie Borlein.

00:27:27.400 She wrote the book, The Devil at His Elbow, Alex Murdoch and the Fall of a Southern Dynasty.

00:27:33.700 Do we know where all the money went?

00:27:36.160 This is one of the mysteries, right?

00:27:37.520 It just seemed like Alec was taking in so much money via fraud from the law firm, the

00:27:42.220 clients, and so on.

00:27:43.340 Yeah.

00:27:43.680 And where did it go?

00:27:45.980 Like, it seemed like he claimed he just spent it on drugs.

00:27:49.300 But the conclusion by many was always how many drugs could that could he possibly have taken?

00:27:56.340 He took in more than he could ever have spent was the layperson conclusion on the on the funding.

00:28:03.440 No, and I think I think, you know, one of the key voices in the book is Blanca Simpson, who was the house, the housekeeper at Moselle for many years.

00:28:11.300 And I think the evidence establishes that Alec was using drugs.

00:28:14.740 But I think there's no evidence that he was using the amount of drugs and opioids in particular that he says he was.

00:28:21.460 And I had the benefit of 10 years of spending.

00:28:25.060 I could see his through some federal exhibits.

00:28:27.440 I could see what he and Maggie spent over the course of 10 years down to like when they when they would go to the Honey Baking Ham store at Thanksgiving.

00:28:34.620 You could see what that expenditure was and what was so shocking about it.

00:28:39.340 And I think we probably know people like this in our own lives is as soon as money came in the door, it went out.

00:28:45.640 He was he was overdrawn tens of thousands of dollars multiple times in a year.

00:28:51.240 Maggie would have to call him and say, can you call the bank?

00:28:54.580 I need to be able to I'm at the grocery store.

00:28:56.160 I need to be able to cash this chain to be able to pay for my groceries.

00:28:59.600 You know, it's it's it's extraordinary.

00:29:03.800 It was, you know, they would take a private plane to a USC bowl game instead of flying first class.

00:29:11.520 Or, you know, Blanca told me, and there's farm equipment out on Moselle, which is 1,700 acres, a huge, huge property, twice the size of Central Park.

00:29:22.320 And rather than fix, you know, a big piece of heavy equipment, they would just put gallons of oil in it every day.

00:29:27.920 So he was spending hundreds of dollars on oil.

00:29:29.860 It was just, it's hard to even understand where the money was going.

00:29:35.760 But there is missing money, you know, millions of dollars, the feds say that's still missing.

00:29:40.460 So he spent a lot of it.

00:29:41.900 He spent some of it on drugs.

00:29:43.960 He, I think there is, I do subscribe to the idea that he buried some of it at Moselle

00:29:50.320 and PVC pipes.

00:29:51.300 I've talked with people who've been there when those pipes had been dug up, but that

00:29:55.040 you can't, I mean, cash is tough.

00:29:56.740 It's tough to bury millions of dollars in dirt over time.

00:30:01.700 There is a theory, and I think the feds have been pursuing it, that some of the money is offshore.

00:30:07.700 And was he going to run that summer is one of the ideas.

00:30:11.480 But the feds say about $6 million that's still missing.

00:30:16.280 That makes more sense that we've got millions missing than that he spent it all on the drugs.

00:30:21.940 All right, so then we go to trial.

00:30:24.080 He does wind up arrested.

00:30:25.500 This all comes out. There is the moment he is found guilty. Actually, we have that. Let's just watch that.

00:30:34.980 The state of South Carolina, County of Colleton, in the Court of General Sessions, the July term of 2022, the state versus Richard Alexander Murdoch, defendant, indictment for murder, SC code 16-3-0010, CDR code 0116, verdict guilty, signed by the four lady.

00:31:00.880 okay and that's interesting for a few reasons one he was found guilty two old becky hill

00:31:08.620 reading the verdict would come to play a major role in this story which no one knew at the time

00:31:15.100 but becky almost got this verdict thrown out because of her behavior behind the scenes with 1.00

00:31:22.540 the jurors and could it still her behavior get this verdict thrown out is that totally settled

00:31:29.920 I know that we had a hearing in which a different judge said, no, I'm not throwing out the verdict.

00:31:36.540 But could that be reversed on appeal?

00:31:39.200 I imagine Alex lawyers are taking that out.

00:31:42.840 No, it's incredible to watch that footage.

00:31:45.160 I was sitting there that night and I was leaning forward on the edge of my seat just listening to it because I remember that emotion.

00:31:51.920 And all of the docket numbers and numbers were like, but what's the answer?

00:31:56.700 So spit it out.

00:31:57.920 Yeah. But we had been in that courtroom. It's very tight corners. It's these soaring ceilings.

00:32:03.620 It was built and it was designed in the 1820s, but very tight quarters. And we had been in there

00:32:08.380 every day for six weeks. And by we, I mean, the lawyers, the law enforcement officers,

00:32:13.980 the jury, the Murdochs, they were across the aisle from me. I could, you know,

00:32:19.040 exchange pleasantries every day. And so it was an extraordinary result to be there that night

00:32:25.340 and listen to the verdict read by Becky.

00:32:27.580 And Becky was really like the den mother of the courtroom 0.66

00:32:29.880 because the clerk of court makes sure the jury has lunch,

00:32:34.200 makes sure that the press has the credentials,

00:32:36.740 or, you know, do they, there's so many people

00:32:39.380 in downtown Walterboro didn't have places to eat.

00:32:42.380 What about food trucks, which they ultimately bought in?

00:32:45.440 She was sort of the principal of an elementary school

00:32:49.120 is what it felt like a little bit.

00:32:50.400 So it's surreal for Becky to be the center of so much scrutiny.

00:32:55.340 But what that scrutiny is about is her relationships and potential talking out of school with members of the jury, many of whom she knew beforehand.

00:33:04.660 And many of the jurors knew each other.

00:33:05.900 It's a small town.

00:33:07.220 I always, you know, I'm from a relatively small town myself in the South.

00:33:11.160 And, you know, if you had 100 people in church the day before jury selection, you know, five of them would have gotten a jury summons.

00:33:20.440 So, you know, people knew each other and the jury wasn't sequestered.

00:33:23.680 Everybody in town knew who they were.

00:33:25.340 And Becky, you know, knew a lot of them personally.

00:33:28.180 And so the question was, did she talk to them out of school?

00:33:31.080 And did she say things that would prejudice them against Ellick, particularly when he took the stand?

00:33:37.580 And you had jurors come forward to say, yes, at least one of them said, she influenced my verdict.

00:33:43.740 And it is a small town.

00:33:45.400 And we talked a little bit about the bootlegging case involving Old Buster.

00:33:49.100 You know, it's extraordinary.

00:33:50.300 But Becky's grandmother and grandfather and her uncle, who was a teenager, were charged, federally charged with felony with felonies in that bootlegging ring.

00:33:58.540 They were on Buster's payroll. And everything is connected.

00:34:02.280 Everything's connected there. But to your question, Megan, I think that we did have a first answer.

00:34:07.600 There was a hearing back in January where the former chief justice of the Supreme Court, Jean Toll, was asked by her former colleagues on the Supreme Court to take a listen to this request for a new trial.

00:34:19.020 She denied it, but the defense is appealing it back to the Supreme Court.

00:34:24.680 They've agreed to hear it, even though it seems unlikely they will overturn their own special, the person that they trusted with this decision.

00:34:33.320 And then also they're very close allies with Judge Newman, who presided over the initial proceeding.

00:34:39.440 He's very tight with the Chief Justice, Don Beatty.

00:34:44.000 So I spoke with Dick.

00:34:45.380 I saw him recently in Columbia, Dick Harpootlian, and they see their best chance at a new trial at the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals in Richmond, just a little bit further removed from South Carolina, which is such a small state.

00:34:57.040 And getting fresh ears at this idea of not just did Becky Hill say things to the jurors that were prejudicial, but also did the state apply the wrong standard? 0.87

00:35:07.740 And it was a degree that was it's a measure of degrees.

00:35:11.320 Like, yes, we acknowledge that she talked with a jury, but did it did it move the needle?

00:35:15.660 And so what they hope is that the federal court will apply a different standard.

00:35:20.580 Yeah, that they they're going to argue they were held to to too high a burden of proof to prove jury tampering and that a lower standard should have been applied, which would have allowed them to prove jury tampering, which would allow him to get a new trial.

00:35:33.800 The Justice Toll was great when she came in and held that hearing over Becky Hill. 0.97

00:35:38.300 The allegations against Becky Hill just got weirder.

00:35:40.700 And Justice Toll, I will say, was, I'm sorry, she's just such an extraordinary figure in

00:35:45.860 South Carolina history.

00:35:46.960 I used to cover South Carolina politics when I was a reporter at the state newspaper in

00:35:51.120 Columbia, and she was the chief justice at the time, former Speaker of the House. 0.94

00:35:55.220 She's been in public life there for 60 years and came, was a young lawyer, and this is

00:36:01.560 so extraordinary to me was a young lawyer in a day, in a time when women weren't even allowed

00:36:05.940 to serve on a jury until 1968. And so she was, she, she did project when she was up there. I

00:36:12.440 say this lovingly. She, she seemed like a tough old broad in the best sense, you know, like she 1.00

00:36:17.340 wasn't going to tell her to hear you say that she knew the Murdoch, she knew the Murdoch and she had

00:36:23.240 actually both in the legislature. I talked with her about this, both in the legislature and on

00:36:29.220 the bench had pushed for laws that would kind of claw back some of the power that they were using 0.95

00:36:38.340 inappropriately, in her view. So she knew the Murdochs quite well over the course of decades.

00:36:45.760 She made the comment about Becky Hill that would become very well known. Here it is,

00:36:52.600 SOT 52. I find that the clerk of court is not completely credible as a witness. Ms. Hill was

00:37:01.040 attracted by the siren call of celebrity. She wanted to write a book about the trial and express

00:37:07.540 that as early as November 2022, long before the trial began. And that led to bad behavior by

00:37:15.920 Becky Hill, which got this whole thing, you know, mucked up. But do you remember, can you, I'm just,

00:37:21.520 it's been a while since we've covered this, but she also has a son who worked in the courthouse

00:37:27.060 and there was an allegation about him wiping his phone and wiping her phone on the day that they

00:37:35.280 were supposed to turn them over for an internal ethics investigation. It smelled to high heaven.

00:37:42.560 You know, it is, um, I think it's, if you're not from a small town in the rural South, maybe it

00:37:48.540 just, it boggles the mind. But her son was the information technology director for the county.

00:37:55.920 And that was, you know, she's an elected official. She is, but she's also, you know, 0.96

00:38:03.040 politically powerful. And some of those jobs are patronage jobs. And he was in that role

00:38:07.420 and is, you know, accused of tapping the phone of an county administrator that was communicating

00:38:14.000 with the state ethics board to try to find out what was going on in the investigation with

00:38:17.820 his mother. There were all sorts of wiping the phone, which, you know, the lawyers will tell

00:38:23.260 you is a fairly standard move in some defense cases, but it looked highly irregular to a lay

00:38:30.400 person. Yeah. I mean, it's funny because it's such a big case. It captivated so much attention

00:38:37.020 that the center ring of the circus is really Elec Murdoch and the trial, but there's so many

00:38:43.480 Outer Rings. With the Mallory Beach case, for example, there's another case that's ongoing

00:38:48.020 about whether the convenience store where Paul bought beer, whether the owner of that convenience

00:38:54.140 store has been trying to harass the Beach family over the years. That's been going on for several

00:38:59.660 years. Becky is facing an investigation into her behavior, and that's been going on. So we're in

00:39:06.520 multiple layers of drama with this story, and it's just incredible. I remember sitting in court

00:39:13.160 and watching Alec during a break.

00:39:15.180 He was six feet away from me.

00:39:17.640 And he's the center of this,

00:39:18.920 he's the eye of this hurricane.

00:39:20.120 And there's so much swirling around him

00:39:21.780 that one person could stir up so much chaos

00:39:23.580 is really amazing.

00:39:25.160 So now here we are where he's appealing.

00:39:28.760 He's going to argue Becky Hill mucked up the trial 0.86

00:39:31.320 to the point where he gets another trial.

00:39:34.040 We don't love the chances, but one never knows.

00:39:37.560 And in the meantime, the wrongful death lawsuit

00:39:41.060 that Mallory Beach's family brought against Alec.

00:39:44.140 Is that totally resolved?

00:39:47.360 That was, the remnants of that were resolved this week

00:39:51.040 with a $500,000 payment from her,

00:39:55.080 from Alec's insurer that had been tied up.

00:39:58.000 And that was paid to the lawyers this past,

00:39:59.800 the paper was filed this past Monday.

00:40:02.040 So that case is pretty well wrapped up.

00:40:05.340 Did the family get a payment too?

00:40:09.420 The family did.

00:40:10.160 And not this past summer, but summer of 22, they, I'm sorry, summer of 23, they received a payment largely from Parker's convenience store, this convenience store where Paul bought beer, on the order of $14 million.

00:40:24.260 So it was a significant civil judgment that, and I learned a lot about personal injury law in the course of this, of reporting this book.

00:40:35.040 But, you know, this was considered, you know, what was Mallory's life worth?

00:40:42.360 It is blood money.

00:40:43.720 And so it's a difficult fact of personal injury law that the more money that you get paid is a reflection of what, you know, a jury might think your loved one's life is worth.

00:40:55.820 I'm sure it's a special form of sentencing for you because every time you get into the car that money bought or the bed that money paid for, it's got to make you feel awful.

00:41:10.220 And they will tell you, and they will tell you, Mrs. Pamela Pinckney, Hakeem Pinckney's mother, Hakeem was the paraplegic teenager who died in a nursing home and was robbed by Alec Murdoch twice.

00:41:23.820 She would tell you, she would give back all of it for time with her son.

00:41:29.580 It's just, it's the proxy we have in our judicial system to make a family as whole as possible, knowing that nothing really ever will.

00:41:38.420 So what, if anything, is happening with the other piece of this story, which is the possible murder by Buster, Paul's older brother of a young gay classmate who was killed on the road.

00:42:00.380 But there's just only speculation that it was Buster Murdoch, not actual proof.

00:42:05.080 And they were going to reopen that investigation in the wake of all of this.

00:42:09.980 Where does that stand?

00:42:12.540 Well, you know, you mentioned the missing money.

00:42:15.380 There's also the question of the missing guns and the homicide.

00:42:17.500 But the biggest unanswered question is what happened to Stephen Smith.

00:42:21.060 He was the he was a 19 year old young man who was found in the middle of a road in the summer of 2015.

00:42:26.220 in the course of the investigation, the Murdoch name came up 40 different times.

00:42:31.280 People would say one of the boys or another was involved somehow.

00:42:34.960 But I should be clear, there is no evidence that Buster or Paul,

00:42:38.200 there's no proof that either one of them had anything to do with the death of this young man.

00:42:44.160 Buster has gone so far to say, you know, that he had nothing to do with it.

00:42:48.620 He wasn't close to it.

00:42:49.900 He wasn't there that evening.

00:42:51.080 And he's even sued some of the documentary filmmakers who he alleges have said that he had a role in some way, shape, or form.

00:42:59.740 They certainly have laid those breadcrumbs.

00:43:02.720 But it is, you know, you can go through, you know, it's 90-some pages of a police report where the name comes up over and over again in very strange ways.

00:43:12.960 So there's always been a rumor that the Murdochs were involved somehow in his death or in making it impossible to find out who killed him.

00:43:23.080 But I can tell you that the state grand jury has still been meeting over this case and is eager to figure it out.

00:43:30.040 It is one that still haunts Hampton County.

00:43:33.100 So we may never know, but it won't be for lack of interviews and lack of trying because they're actively working the case from what I understand.

00:43:40.880 so in the time we have left what's what life like right now for buster murdoch the one who

00:43:48.920 the son whose entire family is has been killed or is now in jail and for alec murdoch who is living 0.93

00:43:55.760 this life of excess and now is convicted of double homicide not to mention all the fraud

00:44:00.420 charges that were brought against him separately which he was also found guilty on

00:44:04.080 no it's very poignant i was i've mentioned i was in hampton last week and went by the cemetery

00:44:10.740 And I saw, it took a while, but Maggie and Paul's gravestones have been put up, and people will leave flowers there.

00:44:18.660 There's a ceramic dog that looks like Bubba, the yellow lab that belonged to the family that's there.

00:44:25.060 And most pointed of all, it's, you know, on Maggie's headstone, it says, you know, Margaret Branstetter, Murdoch, mother.

00:44:33.500 And on Paul's, it says, Paul, Terry Murdoch, son.

00:44:36.280 And it's incredible that that is how you'd be defined.

00:44:41.400 But the person I was with said, what happens to Alec?

00:44:44.740 You know, where is he in this picture?

00:44:46.660 So will he be remembered as a father?

00:44:49.620 Will he be remembered as the person that killed them?

00:44:52.900 But he's in prison in the upstate.

00:44:55.260 He has acclimated to prison life well, according to what I'm told.

00:45:02.920 And by that, I mean, he has, Alec Murdoch is the type of a person who works the system and he has, he has relationships. He does, he's, he's a disbarred lawyer, but he's a law, he knows the law and he helps other inmates with their questions.

00:45:18.240 He's he's using his notoriety to. To to to his benefit, he he was, you know, accused by or, you know, the prisons system of prisons found that he had been, you know, essentially bribing other inmates to let him use their pin number to make phone calls.

00:45:39.220 He's figuring things out on the inside, but he will never, ever see the light of day, even if there's another trial in the homicide case.

00:45:48.600 The state effectively got an insurance policy.

00:45:51.280 You remember back in November when he pled guilty to those dozens of financial crimes and they got a sentence that will take him, keep him in prison until he's roughly 80 years old.

00:46:01.280 So regardless of whether the homicide is ever turned.

00:46:04.480 As for Buster, my understanding is, you know, he's living in Bluffton, a community just adjacent to Beaufort with his fiancée is a woman who was in court with him every day, his girlfriend from law school, who is a lawyer.

00:46:20.740 He got a substantial settlement from his mother's estate, roughly $500,000.

00:46:26.620 There's a payment, I document in the book, where he participated in a documentary and got several hundred thousand dollars from that.

00:46:34.480 So he has a small amount, not a, sorry, not a small, but, you know, a significant amount of money to, you know, start a life.

00:46:43.960 Although it is difficult to see how he does so separate from his family because his last name is Murdoch and he's got that red hair.

00:46:52.860 He's so just, he, he, it would be hard with that, that name and that hair to make an, make a new life.

00:47:00.980 You'd have to go someplace else.

00:47:02.940 I mean, there's a brother, Alex's brother, seemed non-sociopathic.

00:47:10.280 Perhaps there's some hope there.

00:47:12.380 I don't know.

00:47:13.060 Raised by that man with that family lineage, that's-

00:47:16.960 Well, and you're right about his brother's, his older brother, Randy, and his younger

00:47:21.900 brother, John Marvin, are still in the community as well.

00:47:25.340 You know, I went by the law firm the other day and his brother, his older brother, Randy,

00:47:30.100 is a partner there and is actively working cases.

00:47:32.940 His younger brother, John Marvin, runs a heavy equipment business.

00:47:36.000 And as you go down the main drag from Linkinghampton and Varnvale, you see Murdoch Rentals right there.

00:47:40.960 So they're still in the community and, you know, well regarded to a degree.

00:47:47.060 But I think that everything's changed with a downfall.

00:47:52.500 Is anyone living at the estate where it happened?

00:47:56.000 So Moselle is the estate where it happened.

00:47:58.080 It actually has been sold, and it's been sold in two pieces.

00:48:00.860 The house itself was sold, along with roughly 20 acres, to an out-of-state buyer whose name was not revealed.

00:48:09.480 And the Delta, the other acreage, was sold to a neighboring landowner who wanted the land.

00:48:18.100 You know, I went by there the other day, too, just to take a look.

00:48:22.620 I had been onto the property during the trial.

00:48:26.180 I accompanied the jury on their visit to see the place.

00:48:29.680 it still feels, it still seems like there's a heaviness in the air out there. It is still

00:48:36.880 a haunted place, really. Dick Harbutlian said so, and I felt it as well.

00:48:44.060 Always will be. Wow, great reporting. Valerie, thank you. Her name is Valerie Borlein,

00:48:48.800 and the book, again, is The Devil at His Elbow, Alex Murdoch and the Fall of a Southern Dynasty.

00:48:56.120 google it check it out devil at his elbow thank you so much for coming on and telling

00:49:00.280 us the story and the updates thank you so much for having me all the best

00:49:04.880 getting ready for a game means being ready for anything like packing a spare stick i like to

00:49:16.220 be prepared that's why i remember 988 canada's suicide crisis helpline it's good to know just

00:49:22.380 case. Anyone can call or text for free confidential support from a trained responder anytime.

00:49:28.860 988 Suicide Crisis Helpline is funded by the government in Canada.

00:49:35.940 Today, a deep dive into the Jody Arias case. This month marks 15 years since Travis Alexander was

00:49:44.080 viciously murdered by his ex-girlfriend Jody Arias. We revisit the case with criminal defense

00:49:49.680 attorney and longtime Kelly's Court contributor, Mark Eiglarsh. We'll take a look back at the

00:49:54.960 events leading up to Travis's murder, what Jody's life is like in prison today, and Mark will dissect

00:50:00.800 the defense and prosecution in a way that only Mark can. I'm going to kick it off with a little

00:50:10.560 walk down memory lane because you used to come on Kelly's Court back then as now. This one doesn't

00:50:16.460 involve you. This Kelly's Court doesn't involve you, but it's a scene setter. Now we're 10 years

00:50:20.480 post-verdict right now. Here's a little flashback to I was on the air when we got the guilty verdict

00:50:26.160 and covered it with the court then, which was Mercedes Colwyn that day and Jonna Spillbore.

00:50:31.480 Look at this sweet delivery. She's so concerned about their happiness and their peace now.

00:50:38.040 Listen. I hope that now that a verdict has been rendered, that they're able to find peace,

00:50:44.340 Some sense of peace

00:50:46.280 That's great

00:50:47.560 And the Oscar goes to

00:50:48.800 Because this is a woman

00:50:50.580 Who stabbed him 27 times

00:50:53.580 In the heart as well 0.92

00:50:55.180 Then shot him 1.00

00:50:56.140 And look at the bloody sink 0.99

00:50:57.360 Not to be sensationalist

00:50:58.920 But prosecutors say

00:51:00.020 The man was standing at the sink

00:51:01.660 Watching himself get stabbed to death

00:51:04.520 Watching himself get murdered 0.96

00:51:06.240 And bleed out over the sink

00:51:08.300 Oh but Mercedes

00:51:09.540 She's so concerned about the family's peace

00:51:11.880 Give me a break

00:51:14.340 a very pregnant Megyn Kelly in that clip. But that gets to it, right? I mean, the thing,

00:51:22.040 because I've been asking myself, Mark, what is it about the Jodi Arias case that kept people so

00:51:27.420 riveted? And in part, it's this mousy little woman who committed one of the most heinous 0.99

00:51:35.660 murders that ever came before the national eye. You left out one thing, which is obvious,

00:51:41.600 and maybe you intentionally did it, but Americans like pretty packages. Okay. If she wasn't pretty 1.00

00:51:49.020 and I put that in quotations, I mean, it's not how I feel, but there is some type of objective,

00:51:54.320 you know, in Hollywood, what people look for, people found that she was attractive. And if she 1.00

00:51:59.920 wasn't, and she looked differently, I don't know if people would have been as interested. So let's,

00:52:05.020 let's bring that out. That's, that's gotta be something that you concede, right?

00:52:08.180 and the sex i mean it was like an r-rated trial it was like cinemax back in the day

00:52:15.660 oh yeah no there was a lot of that yes and and she really threw punches i mean she really you 1.00

00:52:24.420 know dead man can't tell tales he was dead she was free to say whatever the hell she wanted

00:52:28.600 so whether it be you know allegations of him being involved in kitty porn which he can't defend

00:52:35.000 or him wanting to do, which really was documented because you heard those horrible audio tapes of

00:52:42.880 him, some of the things he would do to her, which weren't meant for public viewing. It was just

00:52:47.180 horrible. All right. So let's start at the beginning. These two meet in 2008, I think it

00:52:55.420 was, 2008 at a business convention. And 2006, sorry, these two meet in September 2006 at a

00:53:03.640 work conference in Las Vegas, Nevada, Jodi Arias and Travis Alexander. And then they start dating

00:53:12.140 out a few months after that. As far as I can tell, Mark, they were only dating for like four months,

00:53:18.700 but they continue to sleep with each other. Yeah. It sounds like it became very physical,

00:53:26.160 very quickly. And, you know, she's the manipulative type, right? So I can't imagine 0.87

00:53:31.720 this was pure love. I think this was lust. I think this was her, you know, playing the angles,

00:53:37.160 looking to manipulate him. And she jumped all in real quick.

00:53:41.580 Did we have any evidence that prior to that relationship, because I think she was like

00:53:45.360 28, he was a couple years older than that, that she was some sort of a psycho, that she had,

00:53:51.380 you know, problems with other partners in turning into a stalker or any other criminal history?

00:53:58.560 I don't remember hearing anything like that. I heard little stories, but, you know, everybody comes out of the woodwork on high profile cases. Nothing that I attributed as credible and believable.

00:54:11.180 So he was a Mormon and she wasn't until after she met him. Right. Right. Right. She became a drive through Mormon. You know, all of a sudden I'll convert. I'm sure that was, you know, again, to somehow take one step further into his good graces. 0.63

00:54:28.560 So they meet. Yeah, here she is getting her, you know, I don't know. Is it a baptism into the

00:54:35.700 Mormon faith? I'm not exactly sure how we would refer to this, but they date from February of

00:54:40.280 2007 to June 2007. And then they break up and maintain a physical relationship. One year later,

00:54:47.320 one year later, she appears to stage a burglary at her grandparents' house. This would become

00:54:54.800 important because it was one week before the murder. And what happened in that burglary?

00:55:01.100 Yeah, next level stuff. She's thinking, okay, they stole a gun from my grandparents. So that

00:55:08.620 gun's out there in the criminal world. So that's the gun, however, she'd like to use to potentially

00:55:14.780 execute her boy. This is relevant because she would later claim when she was on trial, 1.00

00:55:21.320 a bunch of different things, intruders, accident, self-defense. And if she intentionally staged a

00:55:28.940 burglary at her parent, her grandparents' house a week before the murder, then it's very clearly

00:55:33.980 a premeditated act. Absolutely. The best she's got is, well, I brought it with me for protection.

00:55:39.880 I was going on the road, whatever. I didn't mean to kill him. I had it with me. Doesn't necessarily

00:55:43.980 mean she wanted to kill him, but it's strong evidence of it. But I got to go back. There's

00:55:48.280 something that's bothering me and it'll bother me tonight, Megan. I had brought out that she has a

00:55:54.280 pretty shell to many people. Did you concede that? Is she what you would call attractive?

00:56:01.240 And I'm not talking about her soul. I'm not talking about, I'm just saying, don't you think

00:56:04.960 that that played a role in why people cared so much? Why the media? Yeah. Oh, sure. Yeah. If

00:56:11.460 you have an attractive defendant or victim, I mean, I think she was prettier when things started.

00:56:17.020 And then when she took the stand, when she was at trial, she tried to make herself look

00:56:19.960 very plain Janey, mousy, you know, but like the blonde and, you know, the naked pictures, 0.99

00:56:24.660 obviously she's got a very good body. 1.00

00:56:27.280 All those things play into, oh, what's happening there?

00:56:30.220 What, that kind of a person, right?

00:56:32.180 All right.

00:56:32.420 I got what I needed.

00:56:33.180 You can move along.

00:56:33.880 I got it.

00:56:34.280 I just need to know that.

00:56:35.420 Okay.

00:56:35.720 Okay.

00:56:36.460 So the date of that burglary was May 28th, 2008.

00:56:41.000 June 2nd, 2008, which is now two days before the murder.

00:56:44.660 She rented a vehicle from Budget Rent-A-Car in Redding, California, and then on June 4th, 2008,

00:56:52.840 Travis Alexander was killed in Mesa, Arizona. So, I mean, to me, this does all look like

00:56:58.480 premeditation. She looks like a jilted lover who became a stalker, who became obsessed with him. 0.99

00:57:04.460 We're told that in, I think, April, right before the fake burglary at her grandparents' house,

00:57:10.140 he was going to go with her on some trip that right and then he bailed cancun everybody wants 0.93

00:57:18.600 to go to cancun baby and then he she thought she was in the money she was going to go with him it's 1.00

00:57:24.000 going to be romantic he's gonna really spend the dough on me he's gonna he's gonna it's gonna be 0.88

00:57:29.520 romantic and he picked another girl that was it and that really can be the catalyst for a lunatic 0.66

00:57:37.320 Like, you never know what's going to set some crazy stalker off to the point of murder.

00:57:42.660 It'll disappoint any normal gal who has strong feelings for someone for whatever reason. 0.97

00:57:47.940 But when you take someone who's, you know, got 51 cards and isn't all there, that can really amp it up.

00:57:54.120 Yes.

00:57:55.060 All right.

00:57:55.720 So that's as near as we can tell, like, one of the last final acts he does that gets in her head somehow.

00:58:01.920 But they had met on again, off again with the sex after breakup.

00:58:05.080 So, you know, who knows how this exactly files in June 4th, 2008.

00:58:10.520 That's the day of the murder.

00:58:12.280 And we'll get to what happened that day.

00:58:14.040 But weirdly, his body was not found for another five days.

00:58:19.460 Why do we know why that was like, did he not have a job?

00:58:23.680 Did he not have friends?

00:58:24.920 How do you sit in your, you know, how is it that a body's five days in the apartment without

00:58:28.580 anybody noticing?

00:58:29.920 Yeah, it was like that.

00:58:30.740 I'm trying to think of the specifics, but they, he was supposed to be somewhere and

00:58:34.760 then they checked in on him. I think a friend did. Finally, he wasn't there. But yeah, I don't

00:58:39.100 think he had any place that he had to be. He didn't have roommates. He didn't have nosy,

00:58:43.640 you know, parents coming around. So yeah, it just happened.

00:58:48.740 Wow. All right. So the day of the murder, June 4th, what happened? She goes over there.

00:58:55.900 And what happened?

00:58:57.340 Well, I don't know. Meaning, you know, we have what was alleged by the prosecution.

00:59:01.500 the jury found her guilty you never really know exactly what took place um but what it looked like

00:59:09.700 was um she had a plan to execute him and that's exactly what happened she tried to defend with 0.95

00:59:16.400 he was attacking me and that was malarkey initially though i think she was on inside

00:59:21.500 edition and told a few people i wasn't there i was framed like the mona lisa i had nothing to do with

00:59:26.580 it and then when the evidence comes out like most of my clients do they go oh wait you got that

00:59:31.180 evidence okay okay okay okay i was there but that's what happened so initially you know the

00:59:39.660 murder happens on june 4th she leaves we we know i mean she winds up confessing on the stand we know

00:59:44.920 she did this crime now um but she left the crime scene no one finds travis until his friends

00:59:52.480 realize like he's not showing up at events etc and they go to his house they the friends find his body

01:00:00.800 in a crumpled heap in his shower, an incredibly bloody crime scene, and called 911.

01:00:08.120 Here's a bit of that call.

01:00:10.520 Hello?

01:00:11.280 Hi, so what's going on?

01:00:13.060 He's dead. He's in his bedroom in the shower.

01:00:18.860 Okay. How did this happen? Do you have any idea?

01:00:21.480 No, we have no idea. Everyone's been wondering about him for a few days.

01:00:25.200 She said that there was blood. So is it coming from his head?

01:00:27.920 No, it's all over the place.

01:00:34.020 And right away, Mark, the friends suspected her.

01:00:37.420 They described her to the authorities as a potential stalker.

01:00:42.140 And that's what Travis had been saying about her.

01:00:44.420 But they did have sex that day, right?

01:00:47.360 I mean, like, it appears that they had hours and hours of some sort of sexual interlude prior to the murder.

01:00:52.740 That's what's so unusual.

01:00:53.940 Well, listen, you know, this guy clearly was a guy with strong emotions, which is the nicest thing I can say about him in terms of that.

01:01:00.500 And, you know, they went at it. And my guess is there were some discussions.

01:01:05.080 Maybe that was her way of trying to convince him to pick her and replace the gal that he did select for Cancun to go. 1.00

01:01:12.220 I don't know, but something happened and she snapped if if she didn't plan on doing this anyway, no matter what.

01:01:20.620 because you have hours and we know this because they found a camera the two had been taking

01:01:26.500 pictures of the sexual acts there's pictures of her posing totally nude for the camera i mean 0.70

01:01:34.360 very consensually does not look like a forced situation on either end so for sure and it looks

01:01:39.900 like it went on for hours what do you make of that in other words i want to know what you think

01:01:46.580 Why are they having sex?

01:01:47.960 The next minute, she's executing him 0.99

01:01:50.060 in a horrible, horrible, tragic way,

01:01:51.880 which we're going to get to.

01:01:52.880 But why do you think, what's the sex about?

01:01:55.360 What do you think?

01:01:56.060 I think it was like a goodbye gift from her to him,

01:02:00.120 though he didn't realize that's what it was.

01:02:02.100 I think he thought it was just a genuine hookup.

01:02:04.520 And I think she had this whole thing planned. 0.90

01:02:06.560 She went there to murder him. 1.00

01:02:08.280 And this was her farewell, you know, send off to the guy.

01:02:13.260 I do.

01:02:13.920 that's why she's a sick effort and so i think she had the whole thing planned out and this was

01:02:18.460 there's no other reason okay that is just cold as ice baby wow that's her that's what's interesting

01:02:27.560 about her i mean from a you know that's i never thought humanity perspective like why in fact in

01:02:32.640 my mind i couldn't wrap my head around that theory and so i then thought okay she's got it

01:02:39.500 just in case, whatever, and then things go awry, and then she kills him, either second degree or

01:02:47.220 she just said, okay, it's part of my plan that I'm now going to implement. And she had time to

01:02:52.120 think about it when she's there and she does it. But I don't know, man, you think she knew she was

01:02:57.340 going to kill him prior to having sex with him? Yes, I do. I think the whole thing was planned 0.99

01:03:03.580 out in great detail, but she's a bad murderer. I mean, she was effective at committing the murder, 0.99

01:03:09.960 but very bad at covering up her tracks. And she should have spent more time in the planning and

01:03:14.660 the lying phase because she turned out to be a disaster at that. Now, she very shortly thereafter

01:03:20.520 gets arrested. The friends are like, it was Jodi Arias. She's a stalker. Meanwhile, the day after

01:03:26.100 the murder, she went and saw another love interest, some guy named Ryan Burns, a former coworker of

01:03:31.420 of his of hers in utah that guy i think he also took the stand it's like that's how cold she is

01:03:37.760 mark like she now at this point there's no doubt she committed this brutal murder the day before

01:03:42.180 she goes off to see another lover oh no problem i mean like yeah consistent with what you were 0.99

01:03:47.480 saying like to be able to have sex with with with this guy before she she kills him you know there's 0.97

01:03:52.900 travis all right he's dead she she seems to just manipulate and this is also what i know after the 0.99

01:03:59.500 fact. I'm jumping ahead of how she manipulates everybody in prison and stuff like that. But 1.00

01:04:04.060 that seems to be her MO. I don't know that type of person, but someone who can't have an honest 0.81

01:04:09.660 relationship and it's all about manipulation. So she probably had numerous fellas in her life, 1.00

01:04:15.520 including the guy you just mentioned, where, okay, onto him. What do I need from him? Let

01:04:19.640 me manipulate him to get it. And they tend to be narcissistic personalities, right? It's all

01:04:25.440 about them. You only matter to the extent you reflect off of them. You cannot leave them. You

01:04:31.640 certainly cannot dump them the way Travis did with Jody. And that's why you can't process it as a

01:04:37.720 normal person because we normal people don't react that way when they get dumped. It's sad,

01:04:41.300 but we don't kill anybody. So she goes to see Ryan Burns. Let me tell you this. Yeah. That type

01:04:46.660 of person gets very misunderstood because the average juror who's arguably like you and me,

01:04:53.100 you know, who's got sensibilities, the right moral compass, who goes to work every day,

01:04:58.060 kids, family, normal, they come in and they're trying to analyze the actions of some of these

01:05:02.720 people. And a lot of times like, well, wait, that doesn't make sense. I wouldn't do that.

01:05:07.020 There's no way that happened. I couldn't have done that. Even with the Murdoch trial to this

01:05:11.700 day, I know he killed his wife and kid and OJ killed. It's hard for me to actually see it because

01:05:19.520 it's so foreign to me and what I would do

01:05:22.640 and what the average juror can wrap their heads around.

01:05:26.040 Well, that plays into the brutality of the crime

01:05:28.680 because you look at this beautiful, tiny woman

01:05:33.380 and you do not think she would be capable of this.

01:05:37.580 You know, you see like two big, muscly men 1.00

01:05:41.140 with the tats in the prison in their background

01:05:44.160 and you think, oh, okay.

01:05:45.500 Teardrops from the eye, yeah, the tattoos.

01:05:47.440 Yeah, you see Jodi Arias, you think, no, because the level of violence that went down at this crime scene was unbelievable.

01:05:56.720 How did she carry this out?

01:05:57.760 27 stab wounds, a slit throat, and a gunshot to his face.

01:06:03.700 And the medical examiner testified that the actual slicing was extremely deep, three to four inches deep into his neck.

01:06:15.240 trying to find the exact description of it, but it was absolutely merciless. She nearly

01:06:24.920 decapitated him while he was in that shower. She clearly went in there while he was showering 1.00

01:06:28.880 and nearly decapitated him, stabbed him 27 times. And then the medical examiner said,

01:06:33.800 after that, shot him in the face. So, I mean, the level of anger behind that mark speaks to what?

01:06:41.240 I mean, I don't know.

01:06:43.280 What do we glean from the level of violence?

01:06:46.300 It goes back to what I keep trying to do in my head, maybe as a defense lawyer, as a compassionate soul, to believe that something went down before that happened, that he said something that set her off.

01:06:59.460 I find it hard to believe, although I'm not relating to this type of person, that she, and this is probably what she did, that she had the whole plan.

01:07:07.120 And this was, as you say, her goodbye love session.

01:07:10.200 And then I'm going to get him in the shower.

01:07:11.820 And she did.

01:07:12.500 It just seems more consistent with someone who is set off by some words or action.

01:07:18.120 How can that be?

01:07:19.240 Okay, but how can that be?

01:07:20.360 Because we've seen the crime photos.

01:07:21.920 And among the photos that they found on the camera, which she left behind,

01:07:26.400 is there are photos of Travis in that shower.

01:07:29.880 And it appears to be after the lovemaking, you know, he's in the shower.

01:07:33.620 He's not wearing his clothing.

01:07:34.920 And that's, of course, we know where he was killed.

01:07:36.780 And he's okay. There are photos of him in the shower. He's okay. So you don't have a fight.

01:07:41.640 I mean, like an errant word from the shower as she was photographing him naked after their

01:07:46.920 lovemaking. That doesn't make sense. My theory makes much more sense.

01:07:50.640 No, it might. Again, listen, I'm not defending this woman at all. I'm just saying as a human

01:07:56.300 being, I'm just opening up and telling you how it's still hard for me to wrap my head around

01:08:00.360 what she did. It's so challenging. And it's hard to understand how she, this life thin little thing

01:08:07.460 could, could kill him, could kill a man. He wasn't overly large, but he was bigger than she was.

01:08:16.140 Sure. And how do you stab a man 27 times? I mean, he was in the shower, I guess. So he's vulnerable

01:08:20.560 and he's not expecting it. But I mean, if that, if that, you know, slice across the neck was number

01:08:25.740 one, then that would have been the end of it. And it probably wasn't. I think the medical

01:08:30.360 examiner said that those defensive wounds on his hands likely came first, which would make sense.

01:08:36.640 He's caught off guard. He goes like this. She continues to stab. But you just said it. He's

01:08:42.140 off guard. He doesn't expect it. He's vulnerable. He's got nothing to defend himself except a bar

01:08:48.020 of soap. You know, what do you do? She knew what she was doing and she's passionate and aggressive 1.00

01:08:53.820 and, and, and wanted it done. And then to shoot him after the fact, as Emmy said that he didn't

01:09:00.680 see a brain hemorrhage from the bullet in Travis's head. And he said there would be if, if the

01:09:06.920 bullet had gone in there while he was alive and his blood was pumping. So she shot him. She just

01:09:11.820 made sure, you know, he was a hundred percent dead. She wanted this guy dead. She was very angry with 0.99

01:09:16.860 him, which again suggests, I think my theory, you know, she was angry. She was dumped. She was angry. 1.00

01:09:23.140 she wasn't going to Cancun. You don't dump somebody who's a narcissistic sociopath like 1.00

01:09:27.820 Jodi Arias. And the whole thing was a setup. That's, you know, that seems to be what the 0.96

01:09:33.620 evidence suggests. I agree. I just, I just cannot relate. It's going to take me some time to process

01:09:38.440 probably tonight as I'm laying down writing my gratefuls. Wait a second. She had sex with him 0.88

01:09:43.080 as a goodbye. Megan said that. And I trust Megan. I believe her. And then executes him in the most 1.00

01:09:49.440 violent manner. In other words, after stab number 16, that apparently wasn't enough for her. You 1.00

01:09:55.460 know, it required another few jabs right now. We're at 21, 22, still not enough. I need about

01:10:01.300 six more. And then I'm going to slash his throat and shoot him. You really do have to think about 1.00

01:10:06.420 what she actually did to appreciate how abhorrent this was. My God. And then, and then leave his

01:10:12.160 crumpled dead body in the shower like he was trash. She did get arrested a month and a couple 0.95

01:10:20.180 of days after the act. Then more bizarre behavior came out. I'll get to the interrogation room,

01:10:29.160 but she gave an interview to Inside Edition, Mark's number one advice to all of his clients,

01:10:35.840 do not talk. Shut up. Let me do the talking if there's going to be any talking. She talks. 0.98

01:10:40.920 The fish who kept his mouth shut never got caught, right?

01:10:46.240 That's right.

01:10:47.000 That's right.

01:10:47.500 And I'm not saying that certain interviews aren't beneficial.

01:10:53.220 I've done it in many cases, but that's after you know what the evidence is, you know the

01:10:58.360 parameters, you know how you can and can't get hurt.

01:11:01.820 What she did was just reckless.

01:11:04.360 So she gives an interview to Inside Edition, which actually makes some sense knowing her

01:11:10.160 in the way we do. She did, she was a narcissist. She wanted to be a star. She cared about how she

01:11:15.420 looked, how people were perceiving her. I think she was seeing an opportunity to like see her name

01:11:20.900 in lights as opposed to just like, oh my God, keep yourself out of bars. Here is a bit of what

01:11:26.860 she told Inside Edition. This is well before the trial after she'd just been placed in jail.

01:11:31.480 Did you kill Travis Alexander? I absolutely did not kill Travis Alexander. I had nothing to do

01:11:36.480 with his murder i didn't harm him in any way i witnessed um travis being attacked by two other

01:11:42.960 individuals who i don't know who they were i couldn't pick them out in a police lineup so what

01:11:48.280 happened um they came into his home and attacked us both you did not shoot travis no i've never

01:11:56.100 even shot a real gun you did not stab him 27 times that's that's heinous or slit his throat

01:12:02.580 from ear to ear i can't imagine slitting anyone's throat no jury is going to convict me why not

01:12:07.520 because i'm innocent and you can mark my words on that one no jury will convict me

01:12:11.420 oh man oh man we could we could have we could do an hour just on that there is so much there

01:12:21.100 right so wait all right so let me just go first of all the one thing she asked for

01:12:27.100 was for makeup prior to her mugshot. That's what she's thinking about, right? I'm not thinking

01:12:35.440 about a life of having to never take a shower ever again in a jail or prison because I'm too

01:12:42.600 pretty. She's worried about her mugshot. She needs to mix. There we go. It is a nice mugshot.

01:12:49.640 So it goes to the point how she's so narcissistic. She wants the world to love her and believe that

01:12:55.200 she's Snow White. But look at the way she acted. This is why you never know anyone. You just know

01:13:02.940 how they want you to see them because she looks believable. If you know nothing about the facts

01:13:09.060 of the case and you look and you go, yeah, how could she have done that? So beware, folks. You

01:13:14.340 never really need. I watched that interview, Mark, and all I can think of is Phil Houston,

01:13:19.700 the human lie detector, CIA guy who invented the deception detection method that's still used

01:13:25.500 there. He was at CIA for 25 years. And what he talks about, I'll set it up for you. I'll play it

01:13:29.840 again. But listen to how, okay, she does a couple of the things. Convincing behavior. If I say to

01:13:35.460 you, Mark, did you kill this guy? You say, no. You don't try to convince me you would never kill

01:13:41.100 anybody. That's not what a normal non-killer does. So the convincing behavior, the deflecting

01:13:49.280 behavior the qualifying statements the trying to convince you she's a good person listen listen to

01:13:55.540 it again understanding those are signs of deception did you kill travis alexander i absolutely did not

01:14:01.140 kill travis alexander i had nothing to do with his murder i didn't harm him in any way i witnessed

01:14:05.940 um travis being attacked by two other individuals who i don't know who they were i couldn't pick

01:14:13.340 them out in a police lineup so what happened um they came into his home and attacked us both

01:14:20.240 you did not shoot travis no i've never even shot a real gun you did not stab him 27 times

01:14:26.420 that's that's heinous or slit his throat from ear to ear i can't imagine slitting anyone's throat

01:14:31.520 no jury is going to convict me why not because i'm innocent and you can mark my words on that

01:14:36.760 one. No jury will convict me. Classic. That's heinous. That's convincing. I can't imagine

01:14:46.040 ever slitting someone. Who says that? You wouldn't say that. You'd say, no, no, I didn't do it,

01:14:51.740 period. Listen, in retrospect, you see all these signs. You don't really see it up front. But she

01:14:57.280 did, you know, listen, there's one thing that she did say that really bothers me. I know it's

01:15:00.700 probably for other cases, but when I can't stand when people blame other people for their crimes

01:15:06.540 and worse, I actually think there should be an enhancement, a penalty enhancement when you pick

01:15:11.460 somebody of a certain race or gender. It's always like, oh, black man. It was two Latino women who 0.98

01:15:18.000 did this, or it was two black males who I can't stand that. All right, I'm done. Yeah. No, it 1.00

01:15:24.620 happens all the time. Yeah. Two Latino women. Who is that? That was the blonde lady, the wife who 1.00

01:15:30.240 staged her own disappearance what's her name you so now thinking about this so how many how many

01:15:36.600 hispanic latina women are stopped and questioned and harassed in that area because of what she said 1.00

01:15:43.180 right i can't stay at least jody area said i i couldn't pick them out of a lineup like don't

01:15:47.580 bother don't worry we won't oh sherry papini sherry papini was the one that said the two

01:15:53.640 She's not wasting precious judicial and law enforcement resources on her trying to identify 1.00

01:15:59.960 someone. Give her credit for that.

01:16:01.400 Yes. Okay. So she gives that BS interview. I mean, it's so weird. And you can take it right

01:16:06.280 now. I'm not going to be convicted. What the hell? This is not a sports game. This is a crazy person

01:16:11.560 sitting there, though not legally. But on the subject of craziness, there was video of her 0.81

01:16:16.560 in the interrogation room at the police station doing a headstand. And I want to ask you, why

01:16:24.880 did she do this? They left her alone in the interrogation room. For the listening audience,

01:16:29.300 she goes down, headstand, legs up against the wall. She's got no shoes on. She's in civilian

01:16:34.700 clothes. She holds it for 30 seconds. They said she then began to walk around the little

01:16:39.420 interrogation room and sing a Dido song and search through the trash. So Mark, what's that about?

01:16:45.900 Well, whenever I've done that, Megan, I have no idea.

01:16:51.800 I should know what that means.

01:16:53.780 That's a nut job there. 0.99

01:16:55.020 Well, is she going for an insanity thing? 0.99

01:16:56.980 My first thought was, is she trying to look like a nutcase in the most serious of circumstances? 1.00

01:17:01.960 She's doing headstands? 1.00

01:17:03.540 No, no, no, no, no.

01:17:04.840 I eliminate that.

01:17:05.800 Listen, of all your theories, that one I don't like because that would mean this narcissist

01:17:09.720 who has consistently said that it wasn't her, she wasn't there.

01:17:14.400 I was framed like the Mona Lisa. She's not going to then say, I'm nutty. I'm crazy. I did it,

01:17:20.200 but I did it because I'm, you know, I don't know right from wrong. And I have a mental illness 0.99

01:17:23.900 or defect. There's no way that that's what she was doing. So could it just be, she's been in

01:17:28.480 there for hours and somehow in her apartment, she does that. I don't know. There's women who 1.00

01:17:33.840 do headstands like that for some purpose, I think. Right. Isn't that part of some pose?

01:17:40.140 Yeah. I mean, it could have been a stress reliever. I don't know.

01:17:42.440 It could have been a stress, I'm sure she was stressed.

01:17:46.000 You heard in that interview with Inside Edition,

01:17:48.900 she claimed for the first time,

01:17:50.920 two intruders killed Travis and that she was there as well.

01:17:54.660 The ones she would never be able to pick out of a lineup.

01:17:57.660 She continued to claim a home invasion 0.98

01:18:01.000 and that we'd been there having a consensual sexual interlude

01:18:05.360 using the camera before the intruders got there.

01:18:08.360 The camera is one of the most interesting things

01:18:10.680 about the whole day.

01:18:11.840 they took pictures of each other she took pictures of him post injury like post at least one picture

01:18:23.200 they say of it was of him in the shower like while he was being attacked and so we have crime scene

01:18:29.260 photos that the police took that show us actually what happened to him but the reporting was that

01:18:32.960 there was at least one photo post initial injury how does this person leave the camera there and

01:18:40.060 I think they eventually found it like in the washing machine.

01:18:43.640 Yes.

01:18:44.020 I'm glad you said that.

01:18:45.180 I was getting that vibe.

01:18:46.180 It was either washing machine.

01:18:47.340 I'm thinking back all these years.

01:18:48.680 It was either washing machine or dryer.

01:18:50.620 So I think it was the washing.

01:18:51.680 And somehow the, I don't know, the little disc or whatever they use was still good.

01:18:57.380 And they were able to get those photos.

01:18:59.320 And again, once that evidence came in, that's it.

01:19:02.700 She's done all her story.

01:19:04.360 I don't get it, Mark.

01:19:05.080 She leaves.

01:19:06.120 She's got all the time in the world.

01:19:07.560 She leaves.

01:19:08.100 They don't find the body for five days.

01:19:10.060 she knows there's a camera with all these photos of her at a minimum with him moments before he

01:19:16.700 dies. Nah. Why? Washing machine. Why? Why would she live it? Bye-bye. That's what I think happened.

01:19:24.000 Why wouldn't she just take it with her? I don't get it. It's too stupid. Is she a moron?

01:19:29.240 She left a lot of clues and she's serving a life sentence. I wouldn't put her up there with Einstein. 1.00

01:19:33.240 Yeah.

01:19:40.060 Getting ready for a game means being ready for anything, like packing a spare stick.

01:19:44.540 I like to be prepared.

01:19:46.160 That's why I remember 988, Canada's Suicide Crisis Helpline.

01:19:50.040 It's good to know, just in case.

01:19:52.200 Anyone can call or text for free confidential support from a trained responder, anytime.

01:19:57.660 988 Suicide Crisis Helpline is funded by the government of Canada.

01:20:06.620 She gets arrested.

01:20:08.320 She goes on trial.

01:20:10.060 So once she takes the stand, and was it a surprise? Do you remember? Because the prosecution went on for two weeks before the defense had to offer its side. Was it a shock when she took the stand?

01:20:22.080 I don't think I was shocked. No. In fact, the type of person that she was, very outspoken, very passionate. I think she needed to. I think that she, I think it was expected. I don't think I was shocked.

01:20:34.240 okay because somebody's going to have to say what happened inside of that room and she's going to

01:20:40.180 have to admit she was there now thanks to the photographic evidence yeah and also anytime

01:20:46.080 there's any element of self-defense which is pretty much what she was saying that she was

01:20:49.640 attacked and then she you know had to do something that that can't be brought out by a lawyer you got

01:20:55.040 to put them up there okay because because she started with intruders to inside addition uh she

01:21:00.180 continued with home invasion uh and you know i was an innocent victim that saw him you know get

01:21:05.700 attacked and then she switched she switched to travis attacked me and i killed him in self-defense

01:21:14.860 she in august of 2010 she submitted a request to the court to have letters allegedly from travis

01:21:22.320 alexander admitted into evidence the letters were meant to help prove her new theory of self-defense

01:21:28.340 The prosecution objected, saying the defendant argues that the letters are relevant to her claim of self-defense and that she was a victim of previous sexual and physical abuse by Mr. Alexander.

01:21:37.620 But they denied that and they said these letters should not be allowed.

01:21:42.780 Her new theory was that Travis Alexander became angry when she dropped his camera and she was forced to kill him in self-defense.

01:21:53.100 That was ultimately, Mark, what she did claim in front of the jury, was it not?

01:21:57.040 That's all that was left.

01:21:58.880 In other words, okay, the two intruder theory didn't work.

01:22:02.200 Everything else didn't work.

01:22:03.380 Then you're left with, all right, I'm there.

01:22:05.220 I can either do insanity, which works in a fraction of 1% of the cases.

01:22:10.440 And in this case, with all the planning and all the, you know, lies after the fact would

01:22:14.800 absolutely not work.

01:22:16.420 So by, you know, the same way I took the bar exam, I might not have known the answer, but

01:22:20.040 I eliminate those that definitely aren't the right answer.

01:22:22.640 And what's left is the only thing I got to go with.

01:22:24.600 So that's what happened.

01:22:25.320 she starts to try to demonize Travis. He abused me. He sexually pressured me. He treated me like

01:22:35.360 I was his sexual play thing. I didn't enjoy it. He was this Mormon who, you know, made me do dirty 1.00

01:22:41.380 things that I didn't want to do because he, whatever, he had some beliefs that he didn't 0.50

01:22:45.420 want to cross. Here's some of that. Okay. We have, first of all, she accuses him of being a pedophile

01:22:50.860 just to set the jury's expectation of him, you know, where she wanted it.

01:22:56.200 Right. Absolutely no proof of that whatsoever other than her weird word. 0.99

01:22:59.520 Here that is sought for. 0.86

01:23:01.040 I walked in and Travis was on the bed masturbating. 0.89

01:23:06.140 And I got really embarrassed. 0.99

01:23:08.800 It was a picture of a little boy.

01:23:12.120 Oh, five-ish, five-six. I'm not a good judge of age.

01:23:16.120 He was dressed in underwear, like briefs.

01:23:19.400 i was frozen there for a minute and i just ran i didn't stay i felt nauseated

01:23:27.140 ran inside and threw up in the bathroom

01:23:29.840 that's a clip from hlm which is why there's music over the weird testimony but yeah so she tries to

01:23:37.600 condemn him as a pedophile before she gets started and had spider-man pajamas ordered to the house 0.99

01:23:43.300 like she was very specific she's dangerous because she's not an idiot i mean she's dumb but she's not 1.00

01:23:48.740 an idiot. I don't know what that means, but you know what I'm saying? She's very cunning. 1.00

01:23:52.160 She's not a criminal mastermind. 0.99

01:23:54.900 What's that?

01:23:56.120 I said, she's not a criminal mastermind, but that doesn't mean she's not smart. 0.79

01:24:01.460 She's correct. She's creative. She's, you know, cunning. She, she plans these things out. She

01:24:06.940 had plenty of time to, to plan how she was going to lower him in the eyes of the jury. And you dig

01:24:14.840 from the pedophile card deck. 0.53

01:24:16.840 That's about as low as you go. 0.62

01:24:18.220 That was the worst.

01:24:19.640 So then she tries to say

01:24:21.440 that she had to give him

01:24:23.620 certain forms of sex 0.96

01:24:24.960 because he was a Mormon.

01:24:27.260 And this is what he required of her.

01:24:29.600 I'll let her tell it.

01:24:31.400 This is thought five. 0.99

01:24:32.980 Sex is sex. 0.95

01:24:33.960 There's just different ways to have sex. 0.96

01:24:35.980 And it seemed like,

01:24:37.580 it seemed like Travis was kind of

01:24:41.040 um i don't know how to put it um but it just seemed like he sort of had like the bill clinton 0.99

01:24:54.560 version whereas over here it seemed like you know oral and anal sex were also sex to me but not for 0.99

01:25:04.560 him so now she's jody the librarian right she's got her little glasses on he made me do it this 0.99

01:25:12.980 way and the other way this pedophile right so she this is the defense and this is one of the

01:25:18.240 reasons why america was riveted so transparent what she's doing to me anyway and i think to the 0.77

01:25:24.580 jurors also but you still got to do it you know you dealt the cards that you have you got to play 0.86

01:25:30.080 him and you have a horrible defendant, but there's no other way to advance that ridiculous 0.61

01:25:36.900 self-defense theory. Well, is that true? I mean, if you had been her defense attorney, 0.97

01:25:41.300 what would you have done? Not write a tell-all book and get disbarred. We'll get to that.

01:25:49.440 What would I do? Probably what happened here. It would be obvious painfully to me that my client is

01:25:55.680 guilty as they come. And I would say to that person, first of all, there might be offering

01:26:02.420 you life. You might want to take that instead of risking the debt penalty, try to persuade her

01:26:07.700 that her chances are very low of prevailing. She, the narcissist would say, I'm not going to be

01:26:12.440 convicted. So I'd go and I'd say, okay. And to myself professionally, I'd say winning is defined

01:26:17.580 by doing everything I can to achieve the best possible outcome for this client. Whether they

01:26:22.520 say guilty or not guilty is not in my control. And so testifying is her option. If she wants

01:26:27.500 to testify, she testifies. In other words, yeah, I might lose this case. And you know what? I'm

01:26:32.280 fine with that. This is the problem. I mean, basically you try to cut a deal with a client

01:26:38.520 like this because there's just no question that the jurors are going to find her guilty.

01:26:45.260 Juan Martinez was the prosecution. And one thing I do remember is you did not like him. You did not

01:26:51.660 like the way he behaved. Listen, the main reason why I accepted your invitation is because I get

01:26:57.200 another crack at talking about his cross-examination. Okay, so let's set it up before we play the

01:27:04.600 soundbite of that. He had two weeks to present his case. It's kind of open and shut. What should

01:27:11.520 he have done? What would you have preferred to see a prosecutor do? Okay, ready? And I'm talking

01:27:17.960 to the Murdoch prosecutors, you know, everybody gives both Juan Martinez and those guys such

01:27:23.880 accolades, and they did good things. I'll give them credit for that. I'm merely talking about

01:27:28.720 cross-examination, which is an art form. I have taught my students that you don't wing it. You

01:27:36.020 carefully craft every single question that you're going to ask, knowing that it could go this way

01:27:42.400 or this way, and then you are ready with the follow-up. Isn't the fact that on such and such

01:27:46.440 a day you said this and you boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And it's a lean filet mignon. You

01:27:51.880 don't present a big fatty steak wandering around. Hey, Mr. Martinez, your ego is not your amigo.

01:27:58.480 You don't get up there and make it about you. You don't take days. You don't, you know, try to

01:28:03.940 grandstand like he did. I thought his cross-examination was horrible. And people are

01:28:10.640 going to say, oh, you're jealous, this and that. I'm not. I don't care. I wish him well.

01:28:15.480 I'm simply saying that it was a D minus on the scale.

01:28:20.780 And I'm telling you this, don't go by the outcome.

01:28:23.400 This case could have been won by rookie prosecutors.

01:28:26.380 I'm talking about how he did on cross.

01:28:28.440 Both he and the Murdoch prosecutors sucked in cross-examination.

01:28:33.400 Yes, I've said it publicly again.

01:28:35.160 Yes, I know.

01:28:36.600 I agree with you.

01:28:37.660 And now I have to tell you, I listen to some of these friends of the Murdoch prosecutors

01:28:41.020 on their little podcast and they're like, oh, people just didn't get it.

01:28:44.140 If they just didn't get how brilliant that cross was, it's like, no, people know how

01:28:48.920 to do a proper cross-examination and they could have, it would have been over and done

01:28:53.600 with had they done it properly.

01:28:54.620 They let him go on.

01:28:56.140 There was a chance the jury could have bonded with the guy.

01:28:58.160 They took unnecessary risks in that cross of Alex.

01:29:01.280 I agree with you.

01:29:02.720 Okay.

01:29:03.160 So here's one.

01:29:04.000 You don't take credit because the guy, either the guy, or in this case, Jody looked bad.

01:29:09.040 Oh, look at me.

01:29:09.440 I made her look bad.

01:29:10.020 she would have looked just as bad without the opportunity to then explain, humanize, 0.99

01:29:17.640 go on and on. There's no need for that. There's no reason to take a risk on a single question.

01:29:24.680 Good lawyers carefully craft everything. We think about everything we're doing. These guys look

01:29:30.800 like they were winging it and they were. That's unacceptable. And you stay in control the whole

01:29:35.540 time. You're the one who's speaking. The witness is just there to say yes or no. That's it. You

01:29:39.380 You are the one who's telling the jury the story.

01:29:40.980 They're really listening to the prosecutor.

01:29:43.240 With limited exceptions, when I know no matter what they do or say, they're hanging themselves.

01:29:49.940 So every now and then I'll throw that in just to switch it up, because I know there's not a single answer that's going to score points for them.

01:30:00.260 Well, here's let's let the audience get a flavor of Juan Martinez.

01:30:04.700 is here is uh the prosecutor one trying to have jody demonstrate travis's alleged attack because

01:30:14.540 she's claiming i dropped his camera then he came for me he chased me that's why i had to kill him

01:30:20.380 here's just a little bit of that exchange and then i'll play the feisty one ma'am if you would 1.00

01:30:25.240 mind stand up go to the left and show me the posture of uh mr alexander immediately before

01:30:32.920 he rushed you according to you um as he was running just show me that's what i'm asking you

01:30:38.900 to do not talk show me show me the linebacker pose he got down well show me show me the linebacker

01:30:46.720 pose that's what i'm asking for you to do okay he went like that and he turned his head and grabbed

01:30:51.680 my waist just like that correct pretty much and he grabbed your waist right i can't say it's just

01:30:56.500 like that but that's what i remember just just i want it without talking just show me the pose

01:31:02.260 he got down like that like that all right go ahead and have a seat

01:31:07.380 he's already annoying megan let me add him okay first of all nobody likes a bully

01:31:16.420 and i'm telling you i i've actually doing jury selection excuse jurors one woman i saw when i 0.76

01:31:23.760 was speaking, because I was like, you know, I turned to this woman, I said, you know, you said

01:31:27.200 you could be fair to my client. But I'm really wondering, ma'am, I get a sense that and I really

01:31:32.580 questioned her very firmly, because I really wanted her out if she wasn't going to be on board

01:31:36.820 with the plan of being fair. There was a tear that fell down from her eye. And I realized in that

01:31:43.440 moment, I asked her, go, is everything okay? She goes, I don't know, it's just your energy. Like,

01:31:47.940 I feel like you're and I realized, oh, my God, I'm too much for people at certain times. Similarly,

01:31:53.760 What Juan Martinez is doing is being so overly aggressive unnecessarily that that has to turn

01:32:00.640 certain jurors off. There's no reason to be that way in a case like this. That's the first

01:32:05.420 criticism. I've got more with what I just saw. Okay, there's more coming. I'll play another

01:32:10.480 soundbite and then you can resume. There was this tense moment where she got after him for his

01:32:15.700 style. You know, it got to the point where she actually had to call him out. Here's a little

01:32:19.780 bit of that on SOT7. What factors influence your having a memory problem? Usually when men like 1.00

01:32:28.340 you are screaming at me or grilling me or someone like Travis doing the same. So that affects your

01:32:32.860 memory problems, right? It does. It makes my brain scramble. So you're saying that it's the cool,

01:32:38.680 basically what you're saying is Mr. Martinez's fault that you can't remember things that are

01:32:42.940 going on. It's not your fault. I'm not saying that. You're saying that, isn't it? No, I'm not

01:32:47.720 saying that is there something about a certain decibel of the voice that creates problems

01:32:52.920 decibel tone content sort of a combination of those factors

01:33:00.760 go ahead god it's so horrible and the public doesn't understand because 0.68

01:33:08.680 they don't see great cross-examinations when they're watching these high-profile cases i

01:33:13.640 haven't seen it recently there's been some examples there's some exceptions none that

01:33:17.300 come to mind right there johnny depp johnny depp's lawyer with uh what's that which one

01:33:23.840 johnny depp's lawyer cross-examining amber heard very effective probably i'm trying to remember

01:33:30.940 remember i can't remember her name she became a star she's now an nbc contributor but she did it

01:33:35.620 exactly the way we're discussing it was textbook mark it was isn't this true isn't that true and

01:33:40.140 then you did this and then this isn't that true misheard your honor please direct the witness to

01:33:44.840 answer my question and not not to go on like this you know like she controlled the witness

01:33:49.080 what's what's her name steve camille vasquez yeah she was good she was solid i agree so two things

01:33:57.340 one in the first clip that you played you're asking the defendant now to give her version

01:34:04.660 again giving her another opportunity to then display for the jurors why she's not guilty i

01:34:12.900 would never do that. I just make fun of it. And the second clip, you look at him, he doesn't have

01:34:18.420 those questions prepared. He's just winging it. That's what a rookie lawyer does or someone who

01:34:23.560 doesn't do cross-examination. It's not to say there's not room for spontaneity, but I plan

01:34:29.320 my spontaneity. I know that sounds like a contradiction, but that's what I do.

01:34:33.980 You sound like a great person to hang out with for a wife.

01:34:39.520 Not always.

01:34:40.420 I'm talking about not in the bedroom, in the courtroom.

01:34:42.620 Come on.

01:34:45.180 And on three.

01:34:47.800 Okay.

01:34:49.780 Let's talk about the fact that your friend, Juan Martinez, in addition to the defense

01:34:55.200 lawyer, have both been disbarred since then.

01:34:58.340 They've both lost their law licenses.

01:35:01.780 Yeah.

01:35:02.420 Yeah.

01:35:03.040 Different reasons.

01:35:03.960 But can we back up a little bit?

01:35:05.620 because we left out one of the biggest things in the trial.

01:35:09.520 Well, yeah, I'm not done with the trial,

01:35:10.900 but I do think it's interesting

01:35:11.940 that your friend lost his law license.

01:35:14.240 And I think when people look at that cross-examination,

01:35:16.640 it's very interesting to know,

01:35:18.240 quoting now on the AP,

01:35:21.280 that Martinez was accused later,

01:35:24.500 this is why he lost his law license,

01:35:26.220 of leaking the identity of one of the Jody Arias jurors.

01:35:30.700 He leaked the identity to a blogger

01:35:33.640 with whom he was having a sexual relationship,

01:35:36.360 then lied to investigators about it.

01:35:38.760 That's what he was accused of.

01:35:40.280 And of sexually harassing a bunch of female law clerks 0.99

01:35:44.680 in his office, he chose not to defend the charges

01:35:48.680 and consented to disbarment.

01:35:51.260 And what's happening?

01:35:52.120 What are you doing?

01:35:53.800 It's a fog, Megan.

01:35:55.740 Like Jodi Arias, don't you remember?

01:35:57.860 She was in a fog.

01:35:59.760 What?

01:36:00.980 Did you?

01:36:01.400 You don't think I've been props out for you?

01:36:03.360 come on you got dry ice in your office it's a little machine i gave to my son it's like 13th

01:36:12.380 birthday but so appropriate really when we're talking about the fog and how jody arias was in

01:36:18.360 a fog she didn't remember anything don't you remember the famous fog come on yes she was in

01:36:23.560 a fog okay a lawyer too all right the lawyer too was in a fog as he was sexually harassing all the

01:36:31.760 female law clerks to the point where they were, they had to run. He was staring at the chest of 0.99

01:36:36.780 some female employees in the county prosecutor's office, looked them up and down as they walked 1.00

01:36:39.720 away. Some female employees would hide in the bathroom, duck into cubicles, or engage in busy 1.00

01:36:43.540 work to avoid encountering Martinez. He got fired after 32 years as a prosecutor, then lost his law

01:36:49.700 license. That's the man I'm going to have to say, tip of the hat, your instincts were dead on.

01:36:54.860 What an unsubtle pig. You know, I read that to my wife. She's like, 1.00

01:36:58.180 what a horrible and i looked at it from her perspective and and women don't like that 1.00

01:37:04.780 you know and a horrible place to be you know where we're all day long you have this guy staring at

01:37:11.420 you and he's not subtle and it just it's just horrible you know i know it's creepy well so you

01:37:17.500 i mean i think your instincts were dead on you understood this is not a good lawyer and this is

01:37:21.440 not a good man and you had a revolt in watching him that was well placed but the the evidence was

01:37:26.700 so strong against her, it didn't wind up hurting his case. He did ultimately get a confession

01:37:37.040 on the stand, which was rather helpful. I mean, we knew that she killed him because she was

01:37:41.740 claiming self-defense by that point. But here is the moment of confession on the stand when

01:37:47.420 she breaks down Sod 8. Would you agree that you're the person who actually slit Mr. Alexander's 0.83

01:37:55.200 throat from ear to ear?

01:38:01.020 Yes.

01:38:03.700 Would you also agree

01:38:05.220 that you're the individual

01:38:07.080 that stabbed him

01:38:08.200 in the upper torso?

01:38:15.580 Yes.

01:38:18.260 And you're doing all of this

01:38:20.160 according to your

01:38:21.800 version of events.

01:38:23.480 you're doing this to this individual after you have already shot him right

01:38:29.240 what do you make of that credit again megan that was her whole theory she was admitting that she

01:38:43.160 did the abhorrent acts for which she's accused if anything he could have artfully said all right

01:38:49.980 just so these jurors are crystal clear, the first stab that went into his body, you did that. Not

01:38:55.860 two strangers that you initially said, these two intruders, right? Then another jab, and then

01:39:01.740 another jab. This one over here by the heart. That was you, not somebody else. And then he could

01:39:06.740 have gone on and on and on about every stab that she did. And then to really highlight the brutality,

01:39:13.040 especially since he's going for the death penalty after. So you really want to highlight it. The

01:39:18.400 best he had was you stabbed him in the torso. Yes, yes. No, 27 times. And then you did this or 0.99

01:39:25.540 whatever order he wants. That was you're giving him credit. And yeah, OK, he did that. But again,

01:39:32.080 it was wasn't the most effective. He lost a huge opportunity. That's a good point. Drive it home.

01:39:37.540 And I found the medical examiner's testimony that I was looking for earlier. Kevin Horn

01:39:41.560 testified about the stab wounds and said the slash wound to Travis's throat was three to four

01:39:48.180 inches deep and went to the spinal cord in the back of the neck had two major vessels that had

01:39:53.880 been sliced he would have lost a great deal of blood very quickly and then lost consciousness

01:39:59.460 within seconds and died a few minutes later and then of course she shot him as well but he talked

01:40:06.040 about the wounds to Travis's hands that must have been before the fatal injury so the guy fought for

01:40:10.640 his life. He must've been terrified. This person he trusted who was, you know, he was undressed

01:40:16.900 with, had had this interlude with surprises him in this place that's supposed to be, you know,

01:40:22.240 inviolate, the shower, my God. So you're right. And his failure to bring home the brutality did

01:40:27.960 come back to haunt him at the penalty phase. Yeah. I'm still actually thinking of ways that

01:40:34.240 I would have done this differently. I would have said, I'm sorry, Ms. Arias. I see that you're

01:40:37.820 crying. Do you need a moment? And by the way, Ms. Arias, were you crying? Stab number seven.

01:40:43.080 Were tears running down your eyes then? When you did this, were you crying then? Okay. Do you need

01:40:48.400 time? I'll ask the judge if you need a few minutes, but I'm not going to let her hide her face in that 0.99

01:40:53.220 tissue and put on that act. Ms. Arias, can you look at me? I'm asking you some questions. If you

01:40:57.920 need time, I'll give you some time. She's hiding her face. The jurors need to judge her credibility, 1.00

01:41:02.660 your honor, assuming the judge wouldn't allow me to control her that way. I'd go sidebar and say, 1.00

01:41:07.820 judge. They're judging. She's hiding her face. I want them to see her face. She needs time.

01:41:12.240 I'll give her time, but I'm not going to let her bury her face when I'm asking her to talk about

01:41:17.140 the most intimate of brutality that she committed. No way. That's a good point. Does anyone have a

01:41:23.020 scrunchie? Who's got a scrunchie? Let's get that hair back. No, you're right. That was clearly a 0.97

01:41:30.060 tactic. Well, the jury didn't buy it because after she'd been on the stand for, they say,

01:41:36.540 18 days, 18 days between direct and cross-examination. Many felt that was a tactic by

01:41:42.140 her defense lawyer to create a bond between Jody and the jury to where they could not

01:41:47.060 vote for death. Do you agree that was a strategy?

01:41:51.040 A hundred percent. And let me just say this. I just finished a federal trial.

01:41:55.600 My client wanted to take the witness stand. My direct was extremely long. Number one,

01:42:02.280 I'm humanizing my client. Number two, there was a lot to talk about, right? Number three,

01:42:08.640 it is difficult when they don't know who your client is. The prosecutors will always call

01:42:13.660 him the defendant. I'm here to humanize my client. And yes, in that case, they want to slaughter her. 0.87

01:42:19.140 They want to kill her, right? The ultimate sanction. So that serves a purpose. Kudos 1.00

01:42:24.060 for the defense lawyer, not the prosecutor, the defense lawyer. I don't care how long he takes,

01:42:29.500 As long as it's productive and it's routine, they've rehearsed it all, it's choreographed, she could look great on direct, long, long, long, long.

01:42:37.380 Cross, not the same.

01:42:40.480 What do you mean?

01:42:42.820 Cross needs to be tight.

01:42:45.360 It needs to be planned out.

01:42:47.120 It shouldn't go for more than a day.

01:42:49.780 And certainly within that day, I'd say a few hours you can make your points.

01:42:53.800 That's it.

01:42:55.120 Days?

01:42:55.520 You don't want to premise.

01:42:57.120 Juan Martinez show?

01:42:58.580 this isn't about you dude stop making it about you you don't want to prolong the relationship

01:43:04.760 between this person and the jurors any more so than than the defense lawyer did on the direct

01:43:09.600 all right so the jury gets the case uh ultimately the jury was read in court here's soundbite nine

01:43:15.340 state of arizona versus jodian arias verdict count one we the jury duly impaneled and sworn

01:43:22.320 and the above entitled action upon our oaths do find the defendant as to count one first degree

01:43:27.660 murder guilty. Five jurors find premeditated. Zero find felony murder. Seven find both

01:43:37.140 premeditated and felony. Signed, four person. Is this your true verdict? So say you want it all?

01:43:48.440 I mean, it wasn't a shock. She actually looks kind of surprised to hear the verdict.

01:43:52.820 It wasn't a shock to anybody.

01:43:54.680 Don't credit her with having real emotion

01:43:56.820 and equating whatever she just did to how you and I,

01:43:59.780 she's in a whole different area code psychologically. 0.89

01:44:02.960 I don't know what that was.

01:44:04.340 I don't.

01:44:04.940 Right.

01:44:05.260 There's more acting.

01:44:06.980 Well, then we moved on to the penalty phase.

01:44:09.420 Will she get life in prison

01:44:10.440 or will she get the death penalty? 1.00

01:44:12.820 And that is in Arizona is up to the jury,

01:44:17.320 at least on the initial go around.

01:44:19.440 And so the jury had to wrestle with that.

01:44:23.480 She got to say how she felt about the death penalty

01:44:28.120 in an interview with Fox 10 Phoenix

01:44:30.580 the week she was found guilty.

01:44:32.280 Listen to this, Sod 11. 0.92

01:44:33.520 I believe death is the ultimate freedom.

01:44:35.340 So I'd rather just have my freedom

01:44:37.140 as soon as I can get it.

01:44:39.500 So you're saying you actually prefer

01:44:41.240 getting the death penalty

01:44:42.740 to being in prison for life?

01:44:44.800 Yes.

01:44:45.080 and here she is a brilliant wait addressing the jury yeah go ahead no no no no megan come on

01:44:54.460 that was brilliant the ultimate in manipulation that's what nicholas cruz should have done i want 0.93

01:45:01.860 death you know for killing all those kids at marjory stoneman douglas again it's reverse 0.97

01:45:07.220 psychology she doesn't want to die she doesn't want to be a death row she's going to be the

01:45:11.780 the queen in, in, in prison. She wants to live out her life. And so she just does the twist. 0.98

01:45:18.560 That's the ultimate manipulation for that. I'm sure. So she, she did it, um, with the jury as 0.95

01:45:26.680 well. Here's a couple of soundbites I've heard addressing them. We'll start with SOT 12.

01:45:31.980 This is the worst mistake of my life. It's the worst thing I've ever done. You think it's the

01:45:38.120 worst thing I ever could have seen myself doing. In fact, I couldn't have seen myself doing it.

01:45:41.780 before that day i wouldn't even want to harm a spider i'd gather them up in cups and put them

01:45:48.320 outside to this day i can hardly believe i was capable of such violence

01:45:53.580 but i know that i was and for that i'm going to be sorry for the rest of my life

01:45:58.360 probably longer

01:46:00.580 oh lord all right let me add on to that one i'm offended for her making me feel guilty for 0.99

01:46:07.980 killing spiders very offensive i do it and number two come on she's again she's i see how manipulative 0.99

01:46:16.880 she is i keep coming back to that word and she couldn't drum up any real tears either it's like

01:46:22.200 if you really are unjustly convicted it's you you just look and sound entirely different

01:46:28.000 here she is um wait and one more thing bothers me i gotta get these things off i'm sorry to

01:46:32.220 keep interrupting like if i don't i'm gonna think about them later mistake i can't stand

01:46:37.120 know people call like something as complex and abhorrent and as planned out and as you know just

01:46:43.600 gory as a mistake right 27 stabs those were mistakes like like Hitler calling the holocaust

01:46:50.900 you know an inconvenience you know a minor blemish on my record you know like stop minimizing things

01:46:56.560 it's not a mistake right that's a good point like what what was the mistake the three inch

01:47:01.400 you know cutting of the carotid artery after you stabbed him 27 times like the number number two

01:47:06.800 through 26 those were the like in any event um now here she is asking them for uh well you'll

01:47:13.620 listen you'll hear it's not 13. I've made many public statements that I would prefer the death

01:47:17.860 penalty to life in prison each time I said that though I meant it I lacked perspective

01:47:24.740 until very recently I could not have imagined standing before you all and asking you to give

01:47:29.940 life. To me, life in prison was the most unappealing outcome I could possibly think of. I thought

01:47:39.880 I'd rather die. But as I stand here now, I can't in good conscience ask you to sentence

01:47:45.060 me to death because of them. Asking for death is tantamount to suicide. Either way, I'm

01:47:55.580 going to spend the rest of my life in prison it'll either be shortened or not

01:48:00.280 she was pointing to her parents when she said because of them so a change of heart mark

01:48:08.160 yeah how convenient i just that's just so silly i don't even have anything to say i think i've

01:48:14.820 said it already manipulator this person is a household name i mean think about that this

01:48:18.340 woman is a household that most people in america know who jody arias is because the media took to 1.00

01:48:23.480 this case, like moths to a flame. She was the star. She's a sociopath. You can see it's 1.00

01:48:29.100 fascinating to see the mind in, you know, working, like doing its manipulation. And you know what?

01:48:36.280 It worked because the jury ultimately did not sentence her to death. They were, it was a hung

01:48:40.680 jury. And then they brought in another jury to try to decide. And they too could not decide on

01:48:48.160 giving her death and without a unanimous vote for it. You don't get it. And that's why she got life

01:48:52.540 in prison without the possibility of parole where she is right now what we don't know is the split

01:48:58.240 right was it one lone juror was it a few likely it was a few because you know there was a lot of

01:49:04.580 mitigators i i didn't see any of that testimony but you know the lack of priors um i don't want

01:49:12.580 to start naming them because it'll look like i'm being sympathetic but whatever the defense said

01:49:16.780 there was stuff to work with here you know the crime was especially heinous atrocious and cruel

01:49:21.480 and cold calculated and very premeditated.

01:49:24.720 The state had that going for them.

01:49:27.580 You know, everything else, you know, the mitigators,

01:49:30.440 it was probably a couple people said,

01:49:31.560 no, she should get life instead.

01:49:33.400 And then that's it.

01:49:34.100 They only needed a few there.

01:49:36.020 I mean, is it true that generally

01:49:38.080 they don't like to give you the death penalty

01:49:40.120 if it's just one murder as opposed to a serial killer

01:49:45.000 or like the guy who takes out his family,

01:49:47.280 you know, something like that?

01:49:48.600 There's that.

01:49:49.140 And statistically, you know, how many women actually get the death penalty? 1.00

01:49:53.900 You know, it's very rare.

01:49:55.620 And don't you tell me that looks don't matter and how she acts. 1.00

01:49:59.640 People consider that.

01:50:01.060 They just do.

01:50:07.560 So we talked about the fact that the prosecutor is now disbarred and you mentioned it in passing.

01:50:11.540 Her lawyer, too, is now disbarred.

01:50:14.100 What did he do?

01:50:15.460 This bothers me.

01:50:16.360 Another reason why I was looking forward to doing this. This really bothers me. So he writes a book, A Tell All, and included in that book are intimate details that she shared with him while he was representing her.

01:50:30.800 he then writes this book and you know she's objecting to it naturally and apparently

01:50:37.760 they knew about it the bar did and said listen you're either going to for putting this out there

01:50:43.960 your idea of two options one will suspend you for four years but you cannot then put this book out

01:50:49.580 there or you can lose your law license forever give it up and then you know obviously then you'll

01:50:57.280 be free to publish that book. He chose option number two. And I'm not going to out anybody,

01:51:01.780 my wife, who said, good for him for putting that out there. Because I'm sure many people feel that

01:51:06.580 way. And I was so upset about that. Because yeah, do I care that Jody Arias' thoughts are put out

01:51:14.480 there? No, because I don't like Jody Arias. But it's so much bigger than that. He is eroding the

01:51:19.700 attorney-client privilege where now either my clients or other future clients feel like, wait,

01:51:25.500 is this going to be the lawyer who liked that guy, that Nimrod?

01:51:28.940 You're going to put it out there in some book to capitalize?

01:51:31.720 And then that doesn't give any confidence when anybody goes to speak to an attorney.

01:51:35.820 I'm really bothered by it.

01:51:37.980 Yeah.

01:51:38.620 I mean, it's amazing that two of the main characters in this cast wound up disbarred.

01:51:44.580 And the third, the true star, is behind bars for the rest of her life without the possibility of parole.

01:51:49.900 There have been some reports that behind bars, she's in a medium security prison.

01:51:55.500 She's been making friends and lovers and tattooing her name on her jail cell mates. 1.00

01:52:05.960 Lifetime is actually just now, 10 years later, coming out with a docudrama about Jodi Arias and the case and gets into some of that, like her life in jail.

01:52:15.200 We managed to pull a clip, Mark Iglarch, for the entertainment of the audience.

01:52:19.660 Here's a bit.

01:52:20.940 A Lifetime original movie ripped from the headlines.

01:52:24.220 Jodi Arias killed Travis Alexander. 0.98

01:52:26.980 Jodi Arias.

01:52:27.900 Jodi.

01:52:28.760 Jodi Arias.

01:52:29.920 I'm Jodi.

01:52:31.120 You know her name.

01:52:32.680 It's worth doing whatever it takes to gain my freedom. 0.97

01:52:35.580 You're the worst.

01:52:36.340 We do what we have to do.

01:52:38.260 But not this story.

01:52:39.740 When you get out, maybe you can help me get the word out about my innocence.

01:52:42.900 Share whatever you need.

01:52:43.920 I thank God for you.

01:52:45.920 I knew you came into my life for a reason.

01:52:47.860 Based on a true story.

01:52:49.500 There is no question.

01:52:50.760 Jodi killed Travis Alexander. 1.00

01:52:52.900 This January.

01:52:53.820 Everything you said, it was a lie.

01:52:55.340 I was worried that if I told you what really happened, I'd lose you.

01:52:59.440 It's in the past now, and I love you.

01:53:01.760 I can't defend you.

01:53:03.740 Did you believe she was innocent?

01:53:05.300 Yes.

01:53:05.820 Was she innocent?

01:53:06.560 Hell no.

01:53:08.260 I feel like you betrayed me.

01:53:12.760 I will never forgive you.

01:53:14.640 Bad Behind Bars, Jodi Arias.

01:53:18.920 Bad Behind Bars.

01:53:20.980 She's manipulating half the jail. 1.00

01:53:23.820 social media posts, all sorts of bad stuff. Good casting. I mean, you know, I was like,

01:53:31.000 wait, that looks like her. What happens in a medium security prison? How are you able to

01:53:36.120 make friends and, you know, tattoo one another and do social media? Yeah, she's probably living

01:53:42.620 a pretty damn good life. Number one, medium security. She wasn't high. They brought her

01:53:46.720 down to medium. So that's much better for her. Orange is the new black, you know. And then

01:53:51.400 secondly, she didn't kill any children. In the pecking order, she killed a man that many think

01:53:58.320 might have done something bad to her. At least that was her story. In prison, she's at the top 0.77

01:54:04.240 of the pecking order. With her manipulation and beauty, she's probably living large. When I say

01:54:10.540 beauty, I use that in quotations. I'm talking about objectively to others. I know she's using

01:54:15.680 that for her own benefit. Is it possible to have a co-ed prison? Because this is where I get

01:54:22.680 confused. They said she met somebody named Donovan Baring while serving time. Donovan was serving

01:54:30.540 time for accessory to arson in the Maricopa County Jail, where they were cellmates for six months.

01:54:37.040 Oh, they're both girls. Okay. Then this duo became really close and stayed in touch.

01:54:40.640 afterward, Donovan, who I guess is a girl, and Jodi. They stayed tight. Then they were at Estrella,

01:54:47.260 another prison, where this other gal, Tracy, met Donovan for the first time. They got romantically

01:54:53.020 involved. They say by their own admission, Jodi used her good looks and sexuality to get what she 1.00

01:54:57.820 wanted and inserted herself into their union as well. Although they never engaged in actual sex

01:55:03.420 acts together, she once delivered a striptease with Tracy for Donovan and then often refused to

01:55:10.220 leave their cell when they wanted alone time together, from getting them to manage her social

01:55:14.920 media accounts, again, why does she have them, to ultimately officiating their wedding ceremony, 1.00

01:55:20.400 she did it all for the couple, quoting from thecinemaholic.com. So all of this is documented,

01:55:28.980 I mean, on and on it goes, Mark, once a master manipulator, always a master manipulator.

01:55:34.800 She does, and she has nothing but time on her hands, so she's playing all those games, 0.97

01:55:39.020 And I, too, by the way, found it confusing at first. I'm like, Donovan, she with a dude? How'd that happen? No, Donovan's a female. And then you play it along and you figure out what happened. I think as an aside, I read she's got something going on with a guy on the outside. And that's easy to do because there's nut jobs out there sending letters, wanting to be with her phone privileges. Right. And then eventually she's looking to get married to get the conjugal visits. That's all going to happen.

01:56:05.360 And we saw that with Lyle and the other Menendez.

01:56:08.340 That's what they do.

01:56:09.820 It just goes to show you, though,

01:56:11.040 the media is still obsessed with this case.

01:56:12.760 I mean, here we are 10 years later.

01:56:13.940 You don't always do a 10-year retrospective on every case.

01:56:16.360 But I remember covering in this all the time

01:56:17.920 that America was into it

01:56:20.320 and wanted more, more, more, more, more.

01:56:22.460 And here we are 10 years later,

01:56:23.560 and she's still providing material from behind bars. 1.00

01:56:27.460 So what's our takeaway?

01:56:29.360 When you look back and you say,

01:56:30.220 okay, what lessons can be learned from this case?

01:56:33.920 Anything come to mind?

01:56:35.360 Okay. So number one, you never really know anyone. Do not judge someone based upon how they look.

01:56:41.280 And even when you think that you're a good judge of character, you never know. You got to look at

01:56:47.000 the evidence. So once you get the evidence, that speaks volumes. Don't judge somebody based upon

01:56:53.000 their demeanor, what they say and how they look, which coincidentally is exactly what courts are 0.84

01:56:58.600 about. And that's why they get it wrong all the time. But the court of public opinion, wait,

01:57:03.780 listen to all the evidence and then you can decide but we don't do that the second takeaway i got is

01:57:10.520 you know i can't say enough about this prosecutor again uh he won the case good for him and by

01:57:16.860 winning i mean he got the guilty verdict that anyone would have gotten but his cross-examination

01:57:20.900 to this day still is was horrible i don't even want to put it in the same category as the murdoch

01:57:26.160 prosecutor. His was not great, but Martinez's was to me offensive, you know, that he took a case

01:57:35.900 that was a slam dunk and just took days and days and days to do this horrible badgering bullying

01:57:41.680 cross. So prosecutors beware. I'm available. You want to reach out to me? We'll make arrangements

01:57:46.340 to make sure that in a very important case that you prepare and all the questions are right there

01:57:52.000 and you've thought them out, that's what matters.

01:57:55.100 You've got to prepare.

01:57:56.200 Those are two thoughts off the top.

01:57:57.940 You know, the rule is that the jury is supposed to like you

01:58:00.780 more than the defendant.

01:58:02.440 You know, that's your goal.

01:58:03.640 When you're cross-examining somebody,

01:58:05.360 that they will like you, the lawyer, more than the person.

01:58:07.960 And that the way to get there is not usually to berate them,

01:58:13.340 to shout at them, to telegraph with every question

01:58:16.480 that you have nothing but dripping disdain for them.

01:58:19.140 They know that.

01:58:19.860 They know that if you're the prosecutor.

01:58:22.000 this is going to be deep and you're going to say it's flaky and hokey, but I think first

01:58:26.060 for you to be liked by a jury or anyone, you've got to thoroughly and unconditionally like yourself.

01:58:32.880 And I don't know that Juan Martinez did. Well, it's interesting that he did turn out to be a

01:58:37.800 bad guy. You know, he did such a bad job and he wasn't likable in there. And it's just always

01:58:43.200 interesting when like the outward persona winds up matching with what's going on behind closed

01:58:48.200 doors. It is an affirmation that maybe you can sometimes trust your instincts. I don't believe

01:58:53.540 you can't ever know somebody. My God, Doug, we need to talk. I have to wait to see the evidence.

01:59:00.560 I love Doug too, but I love what Doug has shown me Doug to be. Doug's got stuff inside of Doug,

01:59:07.240 and so do you, and so do I. We've never let out, not necessarily consciously,

01:59:11.460 but sometimes subconsciously. Again, all we're seeing, and I adore my wife. I love her.

01:59:18.200 But I love what I know about her.

01:59:21.160 There's stuff I don't know about her.

01:59:22.720 And I love her for that, too.

01:59:23.900 And I love her unconditionally.

01:59:25.080 But again, all we know is what we know.

01:59:27.920 That's it.

01:59:28.180 Turn back on the fog.

01:59:29.900 The fog needs to go back on.

01:59:34.280 Mark Heiglarsch.

01:59:36.320 It's always a pleasure, my friend.

01:59:38.220 Thank you.

01:59:39.880 Thank you, Megan.

01:59:48.200 Getting ready for a game means being ready for anything, like packing a spare stick.

01:59:52.660 I like to be prepared.

01:59:54.300 That's why I remember 988, Canada's Suicide Crisis Helpline.

01:59:58.200 It's good to know, just in case.

02:00:00.360 Anyone can call or text for free confidential support from a trained responder, anytime.

02:00:05.780 988 Suicide Crisis Helpline is funded by the government of Canada.

02:00:12.780 My guest today built one of the most successful vegan food empires in the Big Apple.

02:00:18.200 but her dramatic rise and fall would become the focus of the hit Netflix, quote,

02:00:24.140 documentary, or so they call it, Bad Vegan, a series she says got major parts of her story

02:00:30.960 wrong. By the way, this always happens on Netflix. Sarma Melngiles has a new memoir.

02:00:37.780 It is called The Girl with the Duck Tattoo. In it, she aims to set the record straight by 0.79

02:00:43.200 laying out what she says is the real story behind the fame, the manipulation, and the fallout of her

02:00:50.020 unbelievable saga. Sarma, hi. Thanks for being here. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so

02:00:55.760 happy to be here. Well, I'm sorry that you had an unfortunate experience with Netflix, but you are

02:01:01.860 not alone. We've covered so many of these cases on Netflix where they lure you in and they really

02:01:07.580 do sell a documentary and it's nothing of the kind it's a mockumentary it's a docudrama it's

02:01:15.960 something that is not committed to journalistic fact-based reporting so i will give you that

02:01:23.140 right off the top but i'm super interested to find out what is true um as is i i'm just like

02:01:30.540 to give a two-line encapsulation of your story to the audience as i understand it you're very

02:01:36.720 well educated. You went to Wharton. You worked at Bear Stearns, Bain Capital. Then you went to the

02:01:42.340 French Culinary Institute. You learned how to be a serious chef. You open up this banger of a

02:01:47.400 restaurant with raw food, pure food and wine. Everyone in New York loved it. It was going

02:01:53.480 really well. And then you met this man, this man who came into your life, who was somewhat sketchy

02:02:01.620 And notwithstanding your sophistication, bit by bit, he eroded your sense of self,

02:02:08.280 your understanding of what was real.

02:02:10.920 And before you knew it, you had lost everything.

02:02:15.600 Is that a fair summation of how this thing went down?

02:02:18.780 Yeah, that was an incredible summation.

02:02:20.640 That was, you know, better than I can do it in a concise way.

02:02:24.360 But yeah, that's what happened.

02:02:25.940 And what I've learned is that my story was an extreme version of something that happens to people a lot more than people realize.

02:02:34.000 And I know this now from all the messages I've gotten in my DMs since the show came out and since it became much more public is that this type of manipulation can happen a lot more than people realize.

02:02:45.280 And it also can happen to men and women alike.

02:02:50.420 And so part of my telling of the story is to, you know, is to really help educate people how it happened. And that was the most important part that the show on Netflix left out and that the filmmakers left out is any explanation of how this happens, which is what would allow people to help protect themselves.

02:03:09.880 And which is so unsatisfying, because what's most interesting about the story to many of us is how someone as sophisticated and well-educated and successful as you would fall for this guy's lies.

02:03:26.020 That's what we all want to know, right?

02:03:27.820 Because in our heads, we want to say, oh, I would never.

02:03:31.040 But I mean, I have covered enough of these stories to know.

02:03:33.340 don't ever say that because nine times out of 10, the person being targeted has a bio not unlike

02:03:41.140 yours. For some reason, these con men go for the sophisticated smart types. Yeah, absolutely. It's

02:03:48.520 similar with cults. They actually need somebody who's got a certain level of intelligence because

02:03:54.840 it's almost like you can't train a... You need somebody who's got a certain level of intelligence

02:04:02.060 to be able to pull off this long, slow manipulation.

02:04:06.780 And I mean, I've spoken to people who have PhDs

02:04:09.820 in clinical psychology, attorneys even,

02:04:13.060 who've had their world turned upside down

02:04:16.060 in a way that they never expected.

02:04:17.800 And so, again, that's what I write about in my book

02:04:20.580 is really taking the reader along with me

02:04:24.000 through this sort of nightmarish journey

02:04:27.840 about getting manipulated over time

02:04:31.080 and really trying to, you know, as honestly as I could, even in places where I felt it didn't

02:04:38.020 reflect well on me to help people understand how this happens and also the psychology behind it.

02:04:44.820 And that's really also what was left out of the show. Have you ever, have you ever heard the story

02:04:51.100 of, I'm going to mess up, is it Anderson Benita is her first name, NBC journalist who got lured

02:04:57.280 in by this doctor who said he had figured out a way to do prosthetic, Benita Alexander,

02:05:04.420 to do prosthetic tracheas on people. And long story short, he was a big fraud. And he convinced

02:05:11.380 her that they were going to go and be married in Rome by the Pope, even though she was divorced.

02:05:18.160 And also, she's a newswoman. You can't find more cynical mofos than news producers. And she got 1.00

02:05:26.320 lured in and and what she said at the end sarma is something that you of our interview you might

02:05:31.560 relate to which was because she's also very smart he needed her to be smart because that's where the

02:05:39.340 jones came from like it wasn't going to be fun for him if she were too easy a mark yes i mean 0.99

02:05:47.920 part of what i think part of why this can happen is because certainly you know whether it's my

02:05:54.600 wiring or whatever it is, but I almost couldn't, it's like, I couldn't fathom that somebody could

02:05:59.340 be so diabolical. And also his motivation, it wasn't that clear because, you know, it's not

02:06:06.080 like in the end of this, he walked away with all of this money that he took from me. He just,

02:06:09.860 you know, spent it, gambled it away. That wasn't the point for him. The point for him was

02:06:14.380 the thrill that he and people like this get from the takedown, you know, because I'm not a

02:06:21.300 psychologist, but when you're wired a certain way and you don't have empathy and you go around in

02:06:26.340 this world, it's like life is a game. And to manipulate people is, I think, what gives people

02:06:32.740 like this a rise. And so, you know, again, the bigger the takedown, the bigger the high they get,

02:06:38.600 I suppose. And that's really the point of it is the destruction. Well, and I want people to

02:06:42.640 remember this. I want people to remember Benita, again, a hard-nosed NBC journalist who was doing

02:06:48.940 journalism at the, you know, the toughest levels he can, who was convinced by this fraudster

02:06:54.600 that the Pope was going to marry them in the Vatican, notwithstanding the fact that she was

02:06:59.500 divorced and that Bill Clinton was going to go and Barack Obama was going to go. And the only

02:07:04.540 reason she found out it was all a lie is a friend at NBC was like, Bonita, we checked the president's

02:07:10.380 schedule. He's not going to, even the Pope's not even going to be in Rome on the date of your

02:07:14.500 wedding. Hello. And the, and sort of the, the mask finally started coming off and she started

02:07:19.780 realizing she'd been totally manipulated. So the point is simply, while the lies may sound

02:07:23.920 so obviously outrageous to those of us on the outside, these fraudsters build slowly to gain

02:07:31.040 your trust and control over you before they really start with the huge whoppers to where,

02:07:37.920 you know, you're really believing what looks like to the outside world, obvious nonsense,

02:07:42.520 but when you're in it, you're so far removed from your original self, it can happen.

02:07:48.180 So, okay, let's talk about how it happened to you.

02:07:50.460 So you did the corporate stuff using your Wharton degree,

02:07:54.340 and then like everybody, you decided you hated that.

02:07:56.440 You go to culinary school, you open up this raw restaurant, and it's a hit.

02:08:03.100 It's like doing really well in Manhattan.

02:08:05.600 This is what, the early aughts?

02:08:07.600 Yeah, it opened in 2004, and it was a beautiful restaurant.

02:08:12.080 what i was so proud of is that it wasn't a restaurant for you know it was a raw vegan

02:08:17.880 restaurant it wasn't a restaurant for vegans it was a restaurant for everybody and you know the

02:08:23.200 the food that we made now i realize kind of how ahead of its time it was because this was 15 years

02:08:29.820 ago and it really was about clean ingredients so there were no fake meats there was no processed

02:08:35.720 food whatsoever. So, you know, and there were no, you know, 15 years ago, there were no seed oil.

02:08:42.220 So it was really about showing people how incredibly good, really, truly clean,

02:08:48.620 nutritionally dense food can be, not just in the restaurant, but through the brand One Lucky Duck,

02:08:52.640 where we had products that were sold through Whole Foods and kids loved them, which meant a

02:08:56.980 lot to me. So, you know, and this was my whole life's purpose. It wasn't like I just started a

02:09:03.980 business and wanted to make money this was my life's purpose was hopefully being able to have

02:09:09.280 a positive impact and you know it was a beloved restaurant because people came there and there was

02:09:15.020 you know it was very important to me that there was zero judgment we weren't dogmatic about anything

02:09:20.280 so half the staff or more probably weren't vegan most of our you know half our customers it wasn't

02:09:26.660 like that there was no you know we weren't like annoyingly dogmatic about it there was no judgment

02:09:32.100 whatsoever. It was just sort of showing people how good this can be. And, you know, we were doing

02:09:37.180 great with it. And I had all these opportunities to expand and take it global and open in other

02:09:42.340 locations, but I was running it on my own in a way and very overwhelmed. And I now understand more

02:09:49.780 about my psychological wiring too, that, you know, I just, I always needed a trusted partner to help

02:09:57.200 me grow the business. And I didn't have that. And I was overwhelmed and then also went through

02:10:02.760 a painful breakup and was at a particularly vulnerable moment when this man slid into my

02:10:10.840 DMs. They can smell it. They can smell vulnerability. They absolutely know how to

02:10:16.700 exploit women who are down and it can go the other way too, but it's in this case,

02:10:21.200 it's a man taking advantage of a woman. All right. So, right. You're just out of a relationship

02:10:24.560 that didn't work out. You're growing your business, but that's tough. It's challenging

02:10:28.520 on any individual. But it's succeeding. And there's a little bit of this. I'm going to show

02:10:33.320 some Netflix clips because it's just interesting how they documented some of the, we can see the

02:10:38.160 B-roll of the restaurant and so on. Let's take a look at SOT 51, which is about the beginning

02:10:43.120 of your career. My undergrad major was economics. And I feel like I got there by process of

02:10:50.100 elimination. So I went to UPenn, Wharton, and Philadelphia. I think what happened is when I was

02:10:57.520 there, it was like, what is everybody else doing? Everybody's gunning to go work in investment

02:11:03.160 banking. I got hired by Bear Stearns. Somebody that I'd worked with said to me, do you really

02:11:11.420 like this work? I mean, is this what you really want to do? And my first thought was, do you like

02:11:16.040 it i don't do people like it he sort of confronted me on that nobody else had really done that he

02:11:22.340 said you seem to be interested in food people that i worked with had subscriptions to the wall

02:11:28.600 street journal and i had a subscription to gourmet magazine and food in line that might have been a

02:11:34.380 clue i wasn't going into the right field i left after a year and a half at that time i wasn't

02:11:41.940 under any pressure to get a job financially, so I went to culinary school. I finished at the

02:11:48.980 French Culinary Institute in 99 and then focused on working in food. Now, I understand you don't

02:11:56.580 love this clip. What is it about this that's off? Well, that clip I didn't have any issues with.

02:12:03.240 The parts that I had issues with were mostly what they left out of the series, including any

02:12:09.940 explanation of the psychology of it and uh and then they misused a call at the end and they

02:12:16.220 they moved they actually moved my words around so hold on because the audience isn't ready for that

02:12:22.520 yet yeah we will definitely get there okay so there you are you're making the restaurant the

02:12:26.320 the documentary requires attention the fact that tom brady giselle uh alec baldwin came in and

02:12:33.260 actually wound up hitting on you but you weren't really in a place where you thought you could do

02:12:37.540 that this is before Hilaria or at least was like there was some sort of a vibe going there it was

02:12:42.140 potentially an option but didn't happen I mean he's got his own issues but they're not quite as

02:12:47.400 bad as the one you the man you wound up with um so then enters the guy who is kind of the other

02:12:55.680 star of the Netflix documentary who was going by Shane Fox um but actually has a different name

02:13:05.180 anthony is it bergalis no uh his name his name was anthony strangers he's since changed it to

02:13:11.760 anthony yeah he's changed it to anthony knight which i always point out just because if anybody

02:13:16.580 out there comes across a dude that a very large dude uh named anthony knight he's he legally

02:13:24.480 changed his name i think to try to hide further yeah how did you meet him what was his name when

02:13:30.660 you met him? Well, he said his name was Shane Fox. And I met him through Alec Baldwin through

02:13:36.320 our Twitter conversations, which is part of why, you know, I write about Alec in my book and our

02:13:41.060 relationship. And then how, oddly enough, I met, it was just through DMs and Twitter. Alec had just

02:13:47.400 joined Twitter. And I think that this guy just got lucky enough that he got there early. And so Alec

02:13:53.940 followed him back, which in a way gave him at least some kind of a credibility that made him

02:14:01.500 a little bit more, I don't know, legit. So I wasn't quite as suspicious as I might have been

02:14:06.280 otherwise. And that's something that people like this always look for is any kind of sort of

02:14:11.200 validation that they can get. And how did he explain to you that his name wasn't Shane Fox?

02:14:17.760 Well, that came out later, but he crafted this whole sort of persona that he

02:14:22.600 you know worked in these clandestine operations which of course is the perfect cover if somebody's

02:14:27.780 a con artist because you know they have an immediate excuse to not explain anything

02:14:32.060 um and so eventually i found out his real name but when that happened by the time that happened

02:14:37.180 i was already ensnared and uh and and also by that time it was as if you know well of course

02:14:45.120 that's not my real name of course i have to have you know different identities because of what i do 0.76

02:14:49.840 or whatnot i mean a load of crap but at the time um i allowed sarma did he love bomb you because 0.72

02:14:56.540 usually that's what these guys do yes in my case it wasn't so much love bombing as it was 0.96

02:15:02.360 more like validation bombing because what this man did it wasn't that i was so in love with him

02:15:10.440 or it was about some sort of romantic delusion it was more that he knew he had clocked me as

02:15:18.100 somebody where what meant the most to me in the world was this business and what I wanted it to

02:15:24.020 do for the world. And then at the same time, he figured out what all of my weaknesses and

02:15:29.520 vulnerabilities were. And so what people do like this, and I think cult leaders do this as well,

02:15:34.860 is they present to you your goals and ideals and the best version of you and what you want to be

02:15:41.820 ultimately, and then somehow attach themselves to it as if the only way to get there is through

02:15:47.880 them. So I would say in my case, it was more of like, I don't know, it was like a validation

02:15:53.100 bombing, like sort of overwhelming me with feeling like he recognized and understood what I wanted to

02:15:59.820 do and understood all of my hopes and dreams and my frustrations, and that he would be able to

02:16:04.820 remove all of those frustrations and enable me to grow my business into the business that I wanted

02:16:10.800 it to be without, you know, the influence of sort of unsavory investors or because I was in a

02:16:17.280 position where a lot of people wanted to come help me expand the business, but they were not

02:16:22.440 the right people or they were predatory in one way or another. Well, the restaurant industry is

02:16:26.980 notoriously sketchy and you don't know who to trust. So I can see how it would be difficult

02:16:32.840 to understand, like, is this somebody whose money I want? Is this somebody whose partnership I want?

02:16:37.040 Yeah. Enters this guy who's charming. You didn't then know about his criminal history

02:16:43.600 or what he'd done to another woman.

02:16:46.520 So I get it.

02:16:47.320 You're, you know, kind of willfully blind

02:16:50.020 to some of these things about him.

02:16:52.400 Many women go through this when they're, you know, 1.00

02:16:54.880 first coupling with a man

02:16:56.300 who may be the answer to their problems.

02:16:58.960 But you married him, which was not a good decision.

02:17:03.820 The Netflix documentary covers that a bit.

02:17:06.620 Here's a little bit in Sot 52.

02:17:09.920 Anthony would tell me that that $2 million debt

02:17:12.520 that I'd taken on to buy the restaurant,

02:17:14.500 that's like nothing.

02:17:15.320 He could just take care of that

02:17:16.200 and make that go away.

02:17:18.300 So he would be there with me

02:17:20.040 and help, you know, support me

02:17:21.500 to do all the things that I wanted to do.

02:17:24.600 You know, I would be protected,

02:17:27.060 at least in one significant way, financially.

02:17:31.020 And I remember thinking that would be, like,

02:17:33.880 some sort of dream come true.

02:17:36.560 I remember asking the accountant,

02:17:39.160 would he be able to just give me that money

02:17:41.980 or would that be taxable and how could we do that and um he sort of jokingly but half seriously said

02:17:51.220 well you should just marry him and then he can give you the money without without it being taxable

02:17:56.700 in a taxable situation and very quickly it was like the next day we went and got the license

02:18:01.580 they have to wait 24 hours and it was like boom 24 hours we did it and got married

02:18:05.480 we got married in november of 2012 so it was close to a year that i had known him

02:18:12.800 oh so you you're married now yeah and this was one of the parts where they edited they i mean

02:18:21.760 there was a whole there was two totally different parts of the interview so it wasn't that the

02:18:26.780 accountant said that and then 24 hours later what we were married what i had said was that he had

02:18:31.660 later subsequently really pressured me and badgered me to marry him saying that I would

02:18:38.600 be protected and it would make everything easier and it was a whole different part of the interview

02:18:43.200 where I and then I made the point that so I finally agreed like fine I'll marry you and we

02:18:49.280 went to city hall to get the license and then 24 hours later we were married so this wasn't even

02:18:55.520 one of the most egregious examples of where they changed the narrative but this was it was just one

02:19:01.160 that in a way it made me look a bit suspect to the audience because it made it seem like I just

02:19:06.680 married him for the money that I thought he had when in reality it was later on and he really

02:19:12.520 badgered me to marry him for uh for other reasons what did you think he did for a living

02:19:19.520 I mean that's a good question I write about it in my in the memoir how you know what he did was

02:19:27.720 always vague. And anytime I asked him questions, I would always get vague answers. And what he did

02:19:34.660 was drop, you know, he would say things in a very word salad-y way. So you get an answer, but it's

02:19:40.200 not a real answer. And you're almost left to connect the dots and figure it out on your own.

02:19:44.820 So I know that sounds weird, but that's kind of how he addressed every question that I had about

02:19:51.300 everything so you know and again later on what he did was almost irrelevant because you know he

02:19:58.600 spun the delusion to such a extent that you know he kind of had me believing that there's you know

02:20:04.940 parallel realities and nothing is real anyway um so yeah what he did was almost irrelevant

02:20:12.420 mm-hmm so he kind of spun a bunch of bull and but like how long into the relationship did he start

02:20:22.720 asking you for money because he definitely said he was very very wealthy and that you know you

02:20:27.140 were going to be super wealthy too but the money only ever went one way from you to him yeah so

02:20:32.680 how early on in the relationship did that start um it took a while before he ever asked me to

02:20:38.360 for money. And the first time it was as if it was an emergency, like some last minute thing,

02:20:43.380 and there would be dire consequences and he needed my help. And I, so I, you know, again,

02:20:50.560 I'm the type of person where if you need my help and I can do it, I'll do it. And in retrospect,

02:20:55.860 it was a way of getting me tethered because then he never paid me back. And then, you know, he

02:21:01.300 It was another way for him to get me, you know, what the show didn't cover adequately, too, is that this took a really long time.

02:21:11.580 And multiple times after I first got to know him, I thought, all right, well, this is it.

02:21:16.500 You know, something feels off about this guy.

02:21:18.840 And my gut was telling me something feels off about this guy.

02:21:21.800 And so I'd tell myself I'm going to cut off communication or I won't see him again.

02:21:25.800 But once he borrowed that money, it was like a tether.

02:21:28.160 So then he would say, well, I'm going to pay you back. So, you know, let me come back and see you this weekend because he didn't live in New York. So he always when he came, he was coming from out of town. Let me come back. I'll pay you back. And so I'd agree. And then he'd do whatever, you know, mind sorcery he did that somehow by the end of the weekend, I'd have loaned him more money.

02:21:49.420 um and and over time i just got in deeper and deeper and you know he always had these ever

02:21:55.480 changing stories about how he was he had money but he didn't have access to it or he was gonna

02:22:01.640 have it and again it just got deeper and deeper when you had given him i mean the the final number

02:22:11.960 is a lot bigger than this but when you realize you've given him more than a million dollars

02:22:15.560 did the light bulb go off like was there any point when the numbers got huge that you were like

02:22:20.920 what am i the bigger the numbers got the more terrifying the whole thing was and again part

02:22:27.860 of what these people do is they they weaponize fear and so you know the deeper in the hole i am

02:22:36.540 the more i need him to get me out or the way that he's promising he's going to get me out of it and

02:22:42.060 So it's almost like, you know, it's a terrible analogy because I'm not a gambler, but it's like, if you think that if you just keep going, it's all going to be absolved and you'll get out of it.

02:22:54.420 If you just keep going, that's part of how they, you know, he got me trapped is I just, I mean, how, and by that point, I couldn't even explain what happened.

02:23:04.960 And so if I had walked away from him and gone and ran to somebody and said, look, I need help, I'm in a bad situation, and they said, well, what's going on? What happened? I wouldn't even know how to explain it.

02:23:16.120 And that's the part that, you know, it takes, it almost takes having been through something like this to really understand how it happens. So, again, that's, you know, why I'm writing, why I've written this book is to try to help people understand so they can hopefully avoid it or potentially recognize if it's happening to somebody that they care about or a loved one and be able to help them sooner.

02:23:40.180 Because people around me knew that something was wrong, but they didn't know what was wrong.

02:23:43.880 i'd love to believe that your book can do that and that this segment can do that i have my doubts

02:23:50.400 i think people make their own mistakes for all sorts of deep psychological reasons they need to

02:23:56.140 pursue this terrible pattern of choices and most people have to learn individually it's

02:24:03.020 unfortunate but maybe you know we have a shot maybe we'll get one or two who are happy to hear

02:24:07.700 us and read the book and feel differently when they get approached by a guy like this

02:24:12.020 Can you just put some color on how he was reeling you in?

02:24:17.160 You know, like when I talked to Benita, she talked a lot about how this doctor was just over the top with like the rose petals and the gifts.

02:24:26.300 And she had tape of him like, my love, my love.

02:24:29.180 And she thought he was this world class doctor saving lives with this, you know, brand new breakthrough technology.

02:24:35.340 You know, so you could kind of see how, you know, any young woman to be like, oh, this is a pretty good catch. 0.95

02:24:41.160 He's hanging out with the Clintons and the Obamas, allegedly.

02:24:44.880 But I remain somewhat mystified about what this guy had to recommend him, like how he mind wormed into your psyche.

02:24:53.240 Well, a couple of things.

02:24:54.040 One is that because I met him through Twitter, now X, DMs, there was at least a month or more before I saw him in person.

02:25:04.040 And so he was able to sort of do a number on me before I even met him, which was smart on his part, because if I had met him, a lot of things in my intuition might have told me that he wasn't right.

02:25:14.600 But by that time, he'd gotten me sort of hooked on this fantasy.

02:25:19.780 And what he really did was weaponize my ambitions, because I really believed in my business and what we were doing for the world.

02:25:28.380 And he effectively love-bombed me with validation.

02:25:32.200 and knew what I wanted to hear and saying that he believed in me

02:25:37.160 and that my business was so important to helping the world

02:25:42.200 and helping to heal people and helping to change the way people eat.

02:25:47.060 And that's really what got me

02:25:50.540 and making me believe that he would help me be able to realize those dreams.

02:25:57.200 Forgive me for the psychoanalysis,

02:25:58.880 But when you look back at how you were when you were a little girl, have you, in retrospect, been able to explain your susceptibility to that kind of, you know, your need for that kind of outside flattery and, I don't know, building you up?

02:26:15.560 Yeah, absolutely.

02:26:16.540 I mean, I've done a lot of my own psychoanalysis to try to figure these things out.

02:26:20.800 And I always tell people the most important work that you can do is this sort of this deep self-reflection and looking at your childhood and whatever your specific wounds are, because even if you grew up and had good parents who weren't, you know, abusive or cruel in any way, shape or form, you know, perhaps they're, you know, emotionally unavailable in some way or you're not getting the validation you want.

02:26:43.040 or, you know, for whatever reason I grew up, you know, I might present a certain way, but I really

02:26:49.240 was also probably deeply insecure in a lot of ways and needed that sort of validation. And then on

02:26:57.320 the other side of the show, one of the things that happened on the other side of this show coming out

02:27:02.220 is that people bombarded me asking me if I'd ever had an autism diagnosis. And I thought like that

02:27:09.320 had never occurred to me and so I went and got a an evaluation and ended up getting a diagnosis

02:27:15.180 it used to be called Asperger's and now they call it autism one for whatever reason but that's

02:27:20.840 another thing that shed a lot of light on whatever it is about my particular wiring that makes me

02:27:26.780 um you know that sort of allows for that paradox of being objectively reasonably intelligent yet

02:27:34.860 also unable to see certain things that other people might have seen. Right. It's almost like

02:27:41.360 a social, uh, I don't want to say handicap, but like a social struggle that when you have Asperger's

02:27:48.000 social, it does not come easy to you. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and I can, again, and women, 0.90

02:27:52.780 I think are, are better at masking. So people don't see it as easily. You know, I can, I can

02:27:57.940 go out there and talk to people and nobody would necessarily think, oh, she has Asperger's, but yet

02:28:02.880 certain things, you know, I, certain things, I don't clock people's intentions as well as other

02:28:10.800 people might, or it takes me a little bit longer sometimes to process things. And I just walk into

02:28:16.380 interactions and have a default setting that I trust people and that I assume that they would

02:28:23.000 operate the way that I would, which is in good faith. And so I just don't see,

02:28:28.000 you know there's a thing called betrayal blindness and very very very silly i have to trust no one

02:28:34.580 yeah no one's operating in good faith no no i have the same deficiency in some way so i can

02:28:38.860 understand yeah and i mean i it this wasn't an isolated event this has happened to me there's

02:28:43.740 like that saying you know fool me once shame on you but for me it's like i have to take

02:28:50.200 responsibility for the fact that this has happened to me over and over and over again and so i really

02:28:55.860 have had to do a lot of deep analysis on understanding the how and the why. I mean,

02:29:01.080 even what happened with the filmmakers, I blindly trusted that they would make an accurate show and

02:29:08.260 that they wouldn't have done something that was on the other side of it, such a betrayal.

02:29:13.740 But, you know. I mean, they do it all the time over on Netflix.

02:29:19.880 Yeah. I mean, in this case, the filmmakers made the show and then sold it to Netflix,

02:29:24.200 but netflix and their market well but netflix has a responsibility they're the error of it like

02:29:28.680 that they're the ones putting it out there like i'm sick of this because netflix has done so many

02:29:32.900 people who even i know it's a pattern do not believe the word documentary when netflix slaps

02:29:38.760 it on any film it's always going to be docudrama that i will never believe them when they say

02:29:44.280 documentary ever uh just given what i've seen but let me go back to the the fraud because

02:29:50.420 near as I can tell, he was taking all this money from you and he was telling you like he needed it

02:29:55.860 for an emergency. And he talked about like there being kind of like another side. There's some

02:30:01.120 sort of family that sounded more like an ethereal family, not like a mob family, not like a family

02:30:06.020 of origin, but like some quote family that was evaluating you and you had to pass these tests.

02:30:11.460 And this was after he had ratcheted up the trust factor. He didn't just drop that on you on email

02:30:16.100 One, but eventually he got you believing that your sweet dog, Leon, a pit who you adopted, who was absolutely beautiful and very sweet and who you were in love with, that he could somehow provide immortality for for Leon.

02:30:37.580 Here's Sot 54 from the Netflix show.

02:30:40.540 what eventually happens is that anthony promises her that if she just followed along with the

02:30:47.060 program he was suggesting kept going along with what was instructed he is going to make both

02:30:52.320 sarma and her dog immortal just like anthony is there was some magical force in play here

02:31:02.260 and he's already in this special ethereal world because he's passed through the tests

02:31:08.280 into this new state of being it's like some fantastical magical future where my dog is

02:31:17.980 going to live forever and like this reality didn't really matter because it would all be

02:31:22.100 reset to some sort of utopia his happily ever after that he always referred to

02:31:28.720 now when people watching this say oh come on right like that would be a bridge too far

02:31:36.520 Everyone knows there's no such thing as immortality. How do you explain that?

02:31:40.980 Well, what I would say is that, you know, I think unless you've been through it, the effects of things like cognitive dissonance and over time, a ratcheting up level of dissociation.

02:31:54.840 It's not that it's not that I believed things he told me necessarily, but they were things that you can't disprove.

02:32:02.520 disprove and so i didn't not believe him i just didn't know what to believe and again he he had

02:32:09.200 gotten me in so deep that i didn't see a way out and so you start to cling to whatever

02:32:14.380 solutions and fantasy that they operate you because by this point you're desperate

02:32:19.140 so again it wasn't so overt that he said you know leon's gonna live forever my dog but it was all

02:32:27.580 things that he implied. And I think that the more afraid I got, the more I dissociated and wanted

02:32:34.000 to believe that none of this was real because I was in so deep financially. I mean, the most

02:32:39.320 painful part is that this wasn't my money. It's not like I had this money saved and he got it.

02:32:44.580 That would have been, you know, for me, comparatively, that would have been great if that

02:32:48.660 was the only consequence. The most painful part is that this was money that came from the business,

02:32:54.020 which ended up destroying it and you know all of these other people that were hurt through me was

02:32:59.980 the most painful grueling part of this whole situation because you had investors you had

02:33:06.260 employees yeah and yeah you were not the only one who would go down as a result right and he got

02:33:12.320 money out of my mother your company had to close twice not one but twice one time because of all

02:33:17.700 the money he sold then you reopened and then it happened a second time and that second time was

02:33:21.740 the last time. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and because he took me away. So when he took me away from the

02:33:28.080 city, I mean, when I was arrested a year, almost a year later, nine months later, if you had told

02:33:33.620 me that people had stepped in and the restaurant was still running, I would have, I would have

02:33:38.480 been relieved. But the point is that the entire time that I was away, I never Googled what happened

02:33:44.660 or, you know, whether or not the restaurant had closed or what happened after I left.

02:33:50.580 And, you know, again, that's something I go into detail in the book

02:33:55.520 so people can better understand how it happened.

02:33:59.360 Because eventually, as—and by the way, we should cover this.

02:34:03.220 Do we believe that he was taking all those, you know, $10,000, $100,000, $14,000 checks

02:34:08.420 you were sending him, and eventually your mom was sending him and just gambling it?

02:34:14.020 I believe so. Again, because I think people like him, it's not about the money. It would all make

02:34:20.160 much more sense if he had been stashing the money somewhere and then had just dumped me and gotten

02:34:27.000 on a plane and traveled, left the country, but he didn't. Again, I think the point was the

02:34:33.960 takedown. In some ways, it almost feels like the point was to destroy me, to absolutely obliterate

02:34:41.760 me and to, you know, beyond just the financial side of it, but it's almost as if he wanted me

02:34:47.320 to be so utterly humiliated and broken and to have burned all of my bridges so that any chance for

02:34:54.260 me to recover and come back and rebuild would be, you know, as small as possible. And I'm still

02:35:00.280 trying to do that, but he made sure it would be as difficult as humanly possible.

02:35:06.680 Because not only did he destroy your business, but he destroyed your reputation.

02:35:10.240 and no investor is going to give you money.

02:35:14.460 You say this in the documentary now

02:35:15.880 and employees are going to have a care or two

02:35:20.980 about taking a job with you.

02:35:22.500 Yeah, well, I mean-

02:35:23.560 With your employees, though,

02:35:24.360 I know you want to add something about,

02:35:25.660 I guess, did you pay the employees back their back pay?

02:35:28.960 Yes, so I agreed to participate in the show.

02:35:33.060 I said I just wanted enough money to repay my employees.

02:35:36.200 So as a condition of participating,

02:35:38.260 I got the amount of money that the employees were owed, which was just about $75,000, and all of it went to them because that's the part that weighed on me the heaviest because, you know, of course, that they are not getting paid is more significant than, you know, maybe a wealthy investor being out some of their money.

02:35:55.900 I mean, that weighs on me as well, but what happened with my employees weighed the heaviest.

02:35:59.740 And, you know, all of those people that work there, the ones who are available want to come back if I can reopen.

02:36:06.620 You know, I'm I'm in contact with. So they forgave them. Yeah, because they knew. I mean, the people that work there and the people who were longtime customers of the brand, they knew me. They knew that whatever happened, they knew something really crazy happened, but they knew that I would never, ever, ever hurt that business or the people who work there. It's the other way around. I would have sacrificed myself for them and for that business. So they knew that it didn't make sense.

02:36:33.800 so then eventually this this i'm still unclear even having watched the show

02:36:42.960 this guy gets you to go kind of on on the run with him you leave new york for 10 months you

02:36:51.060 guys are down in like tennessee for some of it by dollywood you changed your name well not legally

02:36:58.720 but you started to go by Emma instead of Sarma. And he went, he changed his name. You covered up

02:37:04.560 your tattoo that had the name of your secondary restaurant on it. So what did you think during

02:37:10.480 those times? Did you think I'm on the lamb from the law? No, I had no idea that I was that, you

02:37:17.240 know, I was being sought after. And at the time, I wouldn't have even, you know, of course, the what

02:37:23.700 what happened with the money was incredibly unfortunate, but I would have thought it's

02:37:28.020 more of a civil matter not criminal because you know again you think that to to be a criminal

02:37:34.480 you have to have criminal intent and I had the opposite of criminal intent in this situation

02:37:40.540 so I didn't think that you know I wasn't aware of being sought after by um by the police but

02:37:49.940 what I write about in my book and what really didn't come through is that by the time he took

02:37:54.280 me away, I was so broken that there's a scene where he drives me away and I'm screaming in the

02:38:02.920 car. And by scene, I mean, I write about this part in the book because it's almost the last

02:38:07.080 memory I have is being in the car. And when he tells me we're driving away, I was screaming my

02:38:13.180 head off, which is very unlike me, but like almost like a wild animal just screaming. And he just let

02:38:19.560 me scream and then I wore myself out. And it's as if that was the moment when I just slid into a

02:38:27.200 deep, deep level of dissociation. And from then on was in a sort of autopilot. And so if you saw me

02:38:38.120 during that time, I could function, I could, you know, talk to a barista at Starbucks, but it's

02:38:45.640 like I wasn't there. And that's the part that, again, it's really hard to know how that might

02:38:51.920 feel unless you've been through it. And so, to answer the question, what was I thinking or what

02:38:56.320 was I feeling? I wasn't thinking and I wasn't feeling. It's like, that's what dissociation is.

02:39:00.900 You're thinking and your feeling is detached. So, you're just almost like a zombie on autopilot.

02:39:07.660 And then the really gut-wrenching part is when I finally was arrested and I write in my book that

02:39:13.040 it took getting arrested to set me free. You know, I have warm, fuzzy feelings for the detective who

02:39:18.580 arrested me, who's a lovely person, and I think he could see what was going on. The prosecutors in

02:39:24.200 New York, different story, but the detective who arrested me, he recognized the dynamics of what

02:39:28.580 was going on. And then once I was arrested, it was the slow process of waking back up into

02:39:36.720 a level of sanity and coming back into the real world.

02:39:43.040 to me it's it's like breaking a horse yeah you know it's like once the horse is broke

02:39:49.200 it does stop bucking it stops trying to get out of the corral like or it's a different horse yeah

02:39:54.400 or like the elephant that you know they don't realize that they've been set free they've just

02:39:59.200 been so trained to walk in this one area that they don't or they don't realize that they could break

02:40:03.600 away you know it is it is like breaking an animal in that way so what what was he getting out of

02:40:11.840 having you in this condition and just with him during these 10 months on the lam because you

02:40:18.500 were out of money now i know your mom started to get he started hit her up for dough and she did 1.00

02:40:24.260 it because she was so worried about you but what was why keep you in other words once like you were

02:40:29.300 kind of bankrupt and i have the same question more to get like you would think that by that point

02:40:34.560 he would have just i mean he could have just dumped me somewhere and he could have gone on a

02:40:40.720 plane and left the country and nobody would have ever probably gone after him, but he didn't. And

02:40:47.080 so, you know, I don't know the answer to that question. I do know that he was, you know, when

02:40:52.600 he took me away, he then also took full control. He had access before, but he took full control of

02:40:58.840 my phone, my devices, my email. So I was unaware of him using my phone to text people and using my

02:41:05.640 email to reach out to people and ask for money, which is incredibly humiliating when I eventually

02:41:12.920 got back into my email, you know, nine months later, however long it was. So he was still able

02:41:19.540 to get some money out of people through me. And I think that in the end, he realized that somehow

02:41:26.560 the game was over. And I can't really explain this, but I think he, it's almost as if I think

02:41:33.420 he might have gotten us arrested intentionally, which I know seems like it doesn't make any sense,

02:41:37.860 but I, my gut tells me that that's what happened because he said to me either the day before or

02:41:43.140 even that morning, he said to me, there's going to be one more gut shot. And I was terrified

02:41:49.440 because I didn't know what he meant by that, but he, it's as if he was telling me you're going to

02:41:53.260 have to endure one more really painful thing, um, before this is over. And then boom, you know,

02:42:00.520 we were arrested and you know which reminds me of speaking of things he made me endure there's a

02:42:06.020 whole sexual abuse component of this story that they asked me about and I spoke about in my very

02:42:12.020 long interviews for the for the series but they left it out which felt really strange to me I

02:42:18.600 didn't understand it at first but I think had they left it in then the audience would have

02:42:23.040 sympathized me with to the extent that they wouldn't have able to create sort of a twisty

02:42:28.420 ending and cast doubt on whether or not I was complicit. What was the nature of the alleged

02:42:35.060 abuse? Well, I think that you might have spoken to people in the NXIVM cult in the past

02:42:42.440 on your show. And so a similar thing happened with Keith Raynery. And, you know, they create

02:42:49.620 this dynamic where it's almost as if they make you believe that the sexual stuff is necessary

02:42:55.960 and something that you have to endure for your own benefit it's really twisted and hard to explain

02:43:01.060 but i i go into sort of grotesque detail in a chapter in my book about about what he did

02:43:07.420 because you know i was so repulsed by this man this is another thing that people didn't understand

02:43:13.860 and that didn't come through in the stories i was so repulsed by him the last thing in the world i

02:43:18.300 want to do is have sex with this guy who by the way just by which point by what point were you

02:43:24.220 repulsed by? I mean, it happened over time, but it was reasonably at some, you know, certainly

02:43:31.100 when we got married, it wasn't like we were a married couple and having sex. By that point,

02:43:35.600 I'm sure I had stopped wanting to have sex with him. And I don't, I think that happened pretty

02:43:40.020 quickly, but he, you know, so eventually it was something that he started to force me to do in a

02:43:47.440 really disgusting manipulative cruel way and it was um you know i mean it was incredibly painful

02:43:55.120 but it's something that cult leaders do as well and i think it's another it's like another element

02:44:01.380 i haven't read the book i only saw the documentary so i wasn't aware of that but

02:44:05.700 what can you provide any color on that like what what what was so awful about i mean i accept that

02:44:11.680 sexual abuse is awful but if you could just help us understand what you're talking about

02:44:14.280 Yeah, well, you know, he basically told me that I had to do things. I mean, there's a chapter in my book that goes into some gross detail about this, where I come home, you know, I'm exhausted working my ass off getting the restaurant reopened after it closed because of, you know, the actions that he put me through.

02:44:35.740 And I miraculously raised money, got the restaurant reopened. I'm exhausted. And I think that he felt me pulling away a bit where maybe I sensed at that point I could get away from him. And so he needed a way to exert even more dominance over me.

02:44:51.900 And so, you know, he told me to bring a bottle of wine home from the restaurant one night,

02:44:57.320 and I didn't know why, because he didn't drink a lot, and he wanted me to drink because he told

02:45:04.100 me that he was going to have to force me to do stuff, and it was for my own good. And, you know,

02:45:09.300 he had this whole long explanation, which I don't even necessarily recall. But by that point, it

02:45:15.200 was, you know, he had created this dynamic where I have to do what he tells me to do, otherwise

02:45:20.140 there's going to be horrible consequences. You know, again, what didn't come through in the show

02:45:27.020 and what people don't understand about situations like this is fear. There is so much fear that you

02:45:32.940 feel like you have to do what these people tell you to do. So it's as if he, it's as if somebody

02:45:40.560 said, I'm going to have to, you know, I don't know. I feel like sometimes if you use the R word,

02:45:47.900 it's screws with the tv but it's like somebody says i'm going to have to now sexually abuse you

02:45:53.600 and you have to let you have to let me and so that's you know that's what happened and that's

02:45:58.300 what i describe in the book did did you get a response to that allegation when you published

02:46:04.020 the book from him uh i mean i haven't gotten any response from i can't even imagine he's he's off

02:46:10.560 doing what he did to me to somebody else right now there was a show called toxic that was on

02:46:15.320 discovery hbo um that i i ended up i didn't want to participate at first but i did participate

02:46:20.960 once i learned that they were trying to track him down and figure out where he is to potentially

02:46:25.080 hold him accountable because at that point we knew that he was doing this to other people and so they

02:46:30.800 do track him down and he is doing what he did to me to somebody else and he'll continue to do that

02:46:36.320 he always this is post-prison time i should make clear these are allegations we do not have the

02:46:40.920 proof of that as an independent broadcaster, either of the sexual abuse or that he's doing

02:46:45.160 it to somebody else. But these are Sarmer's allegations.

02:47:10.920 confidential support from a trained responder. Anytime. 988 Suicide Crisis Helpline is funded

02:47:16.660 by the government in Canada. He's already been to prison because at the end of this 9-10 month

02:47:23.540 stint in Tennessee, you did get arrested. It made headlines that it was after ordering Domino's.

02:47:30.220 I mean, the short form of this, as I recall, was like, she's not even a vegan. They ordered

02:47:35.860 chicken wings and a pizza from Domino's. Like she's the whole thing is a fraud. She's a fraud. 1.00

02:47:41.540 That's where your critics went with it. Yeah. Well, I want to speak to the Domino's. 0.99

02:47:45.080 That was a tabloid narrative. And I'll point out that even the lovely detectives who arrested me,

02:47:50.280 who, again, I feel very warmly towards, they pointed out to tabloids that were calling him

02:47:56.320 that I was in a different hotel room than him. I didn't even know about the pizza. I wasn't in the

02:48:01.380 same room as the pizza. And so, you know, even knowing that information, it's sort of too juicy

02:48:07.020 a headline for tabloids to claim that, you know, this New York City vegan was arrested because

02:48:13.540 of a pizza. Again, I didn't even know that a pizza existed until a girl in jail when I was 0.97

02:48:20.720 in the holding cell in Tennessee. And she had seen me on a news program. She came into the

02:48:25.920 holding cell after me and said, ain't you that girl that was on TV? You know, you got arrested 1.00

02:48:30.680 because of the pizza and i was like pizza i didn't know anything about it so again that was just a

02:48:36.900 way that the tabloids want to make a story juicier for attention to diminish you yeah some of the

02:48:43.940 abuse not sexual but verbal is captured in the netflix film we have some of the the language he

02:48:51.600 used over the phone with you captured in the following soundbite here 55 you know what the 0.97

02:48:57.720 fucking deal is here if i say to do something do it no no no no that's not how it works 0.94

02:49:03.660 i already gave you 200k on top of everything else i thought you were going along with everything 0.99

02:49:10.040 you wanted to happily ever after and now you're talking about this stuff it's fucking real 1.00

02:49:15.680 this isn't real none of this is real those wires are bullshit i took you in the fucking box 1.00

02:49:23.700 i fucking told you what was going on i did all your fucking hate you're fucking falling apart 1.00

02:49:29.340 you're fucking coming on who's making all these fucking threats telling me this and that you're 1.00

02:49:33.700 gonna go do this and you're gonna go do that because now i fucking talk to you who's threatening 1.00

02:49:38.360 who so i love you i'm threatening you if i tell you to take all your money out of the bank and 0.97

02:49:45.880 yeah i got i got chills listen i haven't listened to that in a long time so hearing his voice and

02:49:59.340 uh yeah i mean i've i've like goosebumps right now um i think these people have a certain power

02:50:07.080 that's really hard to understand it's it's there's something about it where it's like they get you

02:50:12.680 under a spell and in my case one another paradoxical element about this whole situation

02:50:19.260 is that i was i kept pushing back on him and yet he'd end up dragging me in and overpowering me

02:50:24.580 over and over again yeah he was not intimidated by your pushback yeah and and by the way there's

02:50:30.340 an ex-wife in the documentary or whatever we're calling it on netflix who says he did this to her

02:50:36.540 too, except she had a baby. Yes. And she claims in the film that he said to her, you know, if you

02:50:44.040 give a baby salt, it will die and it won't be detectable in an autopsy. And she said, I never

02:50:50.360 let him be alone with a baby after that. I mean, like, again, we don't know whether that is true.

02:50:55.860 It's an allegation by an ex. But if so, then this guy's got a dangerous pattern here. And

02:51:00.740 one might argue you should consider yourself lucky to have just escaped with debt, the loss of your

02:51:07.580 business, self-esteem, some anger from employers and investors, and a short stint in prison. I mean,

02:51:14.580 honestly, this could be the lucky outcome. Yeah, I mean, there, I, you know, I say this in all

02:51:18.940 seriousness, there were times where I wished that he had killed me because when I came out of the

02:51:24.580 other side of this, the consequences and everything being destroyed, I just felt like what, what is

02:51:30.720 there left for me to live for and um yeah and he was never held accountable for what he did to me

02:51:37.620 he spent a year in jail and i ended up having to go serve four months after he was released so he

02:51:43.240 was out free clean slate and i had to go in and do four months um and then he only get a year for

02:51:50.020 all of this he stole 1.7 million dollars minimum from you yeah i mean i saw you know the ultimate

02:51:56.020 damages were higher than that but like how does he only get a year in jail for that that's a good

02:52:00.440 question you know i i was prosecuted aggressively he was it's almost like he was an afterthought

02:52:06.420 because the prosecution focused on the business loss and but there was no he was never charged

02:52:14.600 for what he did to me or to my mother and this happened you know this was 2016 so i would think

02:52:22.500 that perhaps if it happened now, it might be different. On the other side of, for example,

02:52:27.140 Keith Raynery getting prosecuted for what he did and the way he was able to manipulate people,

02:52:32.160 I think maybe now it would have been different or had it been a different prosecutor or just

02:52:36.440 different circumstances. Did he plead guilty to something or was he found guilty of anything?

02:52:43.200 Well, he pled guilty. We both pled guilty. There was never any trial or anything like that. I mean,

02:52:48.980 And, you know, I think anybody who's been through the criminal justice system knows that pleading guilty is something that people do all the time because it's a better alternative than getting dragged through, you know, a trial that you can't afford or the prospect of the stress of a trial and, you know, perhaps things not being admitted into evidence and you end up with even more time.

02:53:14.680 and not to mention not being able to afford a trial so um you know i ended up pleading guilty

02:53:20.380 which was really painful because however they made it look i'm a deeply honest person and so

02:53:26.160 to stand there in court and have to plead guilty to something that i had no intention of ever doing

02:53:32.160 um you know what did you plead guilty to yeah i've almost like blacked it out but you know

02:53:38.960 the words fraud and grand larceny were involved. And that's not me. I mean, I'm like the goody

02:53:45.520 two-shoes who never got in trouble in school, you know, respects authority, does the right thing. 0.91

02:53:52.240 You know, we ran the restaurant. I had an accountant once who I was talking to about

02:53:56.920 doing our taxes. And he said, well, how many of your employees are on versus off the books? And

02:54:01.740 I said, well, they're all on. He said, no, no, really tell me how many are off. I said, no,

02:54:06.780 they're all on the books like we did everything by the book that's kind of just just the person

02:54:11.100 that i am and so well the thing that's strange about it is normally if you're committing larceny

02:54:17.480 you take the money and then you get a gain with it you do something i lost everything that will

02:54:23.460 help your life or you know i don't know help someone you love but what happened here was

02:54:29.360 you were taking money that he was demanding and giving it to him which he appears to have

02:54:34.660 gambled away which you do not appear to have benefited from at all in fact it was at great

02:54:39.360 cost to you and the things that you cared about you know like there's they don't have some rolex

02:54:45.500 watch right that you you got or some penthouse that you got you weren't taking this money and

02:54:52.800 lining your own pocket with it you were giving it to him yeah and even so i mean people know me

02:54:58.120 know that that kind of stuff doesn't matter to me what mattered to me was the business and

02:55:02.400 and wanting to protect it. So yeah, I mean, he's the only one who benefited. I didn't.

02:55:12.460 That's a nightmare. I mean, this is just a nightmare. I very much feel for you. I know

02:55:16.920 some people are mad at you because they don't believe that you were mind manipulated, but

02:55:21.120 I believe you. I've seen this happen with enough people. I believe you.

02:55:24.920 I really appreciate that. And, you know, I at least was lucky enough to recover enough of my

02:55:31.800 communications with him that I have all the backup you know it's like I naively thought that with my

02:55:37.900 prosecution the more evidence they dug up and the more they were able to recover that it would help

02:55:42.760 me they recovered a journal of mine where I was writing about what was going on and when I was

02:55:48.640 given a copy of it I thought oh okay finally like this exonerates me because surely they wouldn't

02:55:55.340 think that you know nothing logically made sense why would I have torched my own life

02:56:01.240 and um but you know that's not how he's got a history yeah he's got a long criminal record of

02:56:07.620 impersonating police officers like a very extensive criminal record and i was completely

02:56:14.160 the opposite um but i just got very unlucky with the the prosecution in my case

02:56:19.120 mm-hmm so sorry to bring this up but is leon still alive oh no he passed away a year and a

02:56:30.600 half ago um i was with him when it happened and you know he had a long life he was a pit bull

02:56:37.120 and he was 14 and a half when he passed away but at least i got to be with him

02:56:43.000 and um yeah that's him you gave him a lot of love yeah a lot of love but it was here in this

02:56:49.720 apartment yeah yet another i mean obviously no like the deluded version of you chose to believe

02:56:57.300 that maybe he could save your beloved pet forever and of course it's yet another lie that he told

02:57:02.720 you and so now where where are you and where is he you think he's still doing this to yet another

02:57:09.060 person because he's out of prison I would imagine the Netflix film would make that a little tough

02:57:14.180 for him but who knows women do what they're going to do and and what about you what are you now what 1.00

02:57:20.620 for you um good question i uh was moved back here to new york which was you know where what i always

02:57:27.360 felt was home to reopen the business in the same location and then um what i said before about you

02:57:34.900 know i have to take responsibility for somebody that unfortunately makes a good target and is

02:57:40.860 able to be deceived by some dishonest people it's happened uh sad to say again and so i've been

02:57:47.880 a bit reeling on how to move forward but I still have some things in the works and I

02:57:53.980 you know one of the things that these people look for in a good target is somebody that won't

02:58:00.360 give up and uh and will keep going and that is something about my personality is that I will

02:58:05.540 keep getting up and I will keep going and keep trying and believing in what I wanted to build

02:58:11.720 the first time around. And, um, so I may be able to pull it off for it to happen again. Um,

02:58:17.940 and, and maybe not, but that's really what I earn. If you personally can earn enough money

02:58:24.000 to fund yourself, no one can stop you. I mean, that would be a great outcome here. Even if you

02:58:29.960 have to do catering, whatever, like do something to use your skills to earn enough money to open

02:58:35.600 something up even if it's not in Manhattan um that could be yeah and I think you know another

02:58:41.820 going forward now my my mission always was around food and clean eating and healthy living but I

02:58:49.160 think also on the other side of this it's really meaningful to me to be to have my story be as

02:58:54.040 useful as possible through my book and through speaking out about what happened and um this type

02:58:59.840 of manipulation that again a lot of people don't realize that it could happen to them

02:59:03.720 And hopefully so that they might also recognize if it's happening to somebody, to a loved one or somebody that they care about and be able to intervene and help prevent somebody going through as extensive as a nightmare as this.

02:59:20.140 Alec Baldwin needs to help you.

02:59:23.240 Alec Baldwin should fund your restaurant.

02:59:25.360 I don't think so.

02:59:26.220 Somebody else should control the finances.

02:59:27.980 But why not?

02:59:29.060 He was like kind of played an early role on this.

02:59:30.920 In a way, he was responsible for you meeting this guy.

02:59:33.340 He's got a lot of money. He met Elaria at my restaurant. So, I mean, I ended up getting I adopted my dog because of him.

02:59:42.040 And so that's another story that's in the book. But there's a weird connection there.

02:59:45.600 And it's not, you know, it's it's a lot of things just need to go right.

02:59:50.740 But for me, it's a matter of finding the right partnership and people that I can trust, because, you know, it's not that I necessarily would need somebody else to oversee the money.

03:00:00.060 It's that I need, I need guardrails. I need people that are trustworthy and honest and forthright and that I could work collaboratively with and move forward. So that also so that I'm, well, I think, I think it's not, it's not for you that you need somebody to control the finances. It's that anybody who is going to be associated with a restaurant is going to want to see that it's not you controlling the finances.

03:00:22.040 Yeah. Or that nobody could get. Yeah. For this next phase out, you know, maybe when you're at this for 10 years and everybody sees you're you're good. You don't need that. But I think that's all part of rebuilding trust and telegraphing to the world that, you know, what happened and you acknowledge it. And but you're going to earn back trust. I think that would be a great start. Anyway, I'm going to text Alec Baldwin. I'm going to tell me. No, but I do think he should help you. And if not, then you help yourself. And you you'll you're very capable. You're well educated. You have a lot of skills.

03:00:51.940 I think you're, you're, you can earn money and help give yourself the next big start you need.

03:00:57.460 I hope you do it. Thank you for telling your story. I'm sorry this happened to you.

03:01:00.820 Thank you so much. I appreciate being here.

03:01:04.280 All the best. And we'll see you again. Thank you, Sarma.

03:01:09.040 Wow. Unbelievable, right? Like what a crazy story. Um, the book again, that she mentioned

03:01:14.600 is called the girl with the duck tattoo. And that's where Sarma aims to set the record straight

03:01:19.720 by laying out what she says is the real story.

03:01:22.240 One note for you,

03:01:22.980 The Megyn Kelly Show reached out to Anthony Strangus

03:01:25.760 for comment regarding the sexual assault allegations

03:01:28.100 made by Sarma.

03:01:29.380 As of now, we have not received a response.

03:01:31.960 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. 0.94

03:01:33.740 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - March 29, 2026

Alex Murdaugh Crimes, Jodi Arias Trial, ＂Bad Vegan＂ Deep Dive - Megyn's ＂True Crime＂ Mega-Episode

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