The Megyn Kelly Show - Alice Marie Johnson on Her Journey Out of Prison, President Trump, Kim Kardashian, and Criminal Justice Reform ｜ Ep. 117

00:00:00.420 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:12.000 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. Listen to this.

00:00:17.920 I'm feeling no handcuffs, nothing on me. I'm free to hug my family.

00:00:23.420 I'm free to live life. I'm free to start over. I cannot. This is the greatest day of my life. I cannot.

00:00:34.760 My heart is just bursting with gratitude for what has taken place, what has happened to me today.

00:00:40.620 That was Alice Marie Johnson, released from her life sentence plus 25 years after she served 21 of those years in a federal prison.

00:00:51.320 Thanks to clemency from President Donald Trump, an extraordinary path for her from successful manager at FedEx to lifer in prison for a nonviolent drug crime.

00:01:06.620 And then the road out.

00:01:10.120 And the story is relevant just in terms of an American story, how one person makes one bad decision and sees things start to unravel slowly but surely and devastatingly.

00:01:22.260 But also it's a story of hope and optimism and the willingness to maintain one's sanity and hope and belief in a system that has wronged you against all odds.

00:01:35.160 And ultimately, this comes down to not just Alice Marie Johnson's story, but the story of many prisoners who were locked up with the keys thrown away for crimes that did not justify the extraordinary sentences they were given back in the 90s in particular.

00:01:53.320 And how Alice and how Alice and others like her worked after her release to change that, not just for her, but for many, for many prisoners who were struggling to hold on to their hope.

00:02:05.540 It's a great, great tale.

00:02:07.720 Well, the fact that it involves Kim Kardashian and some other notable figures you'll hear along the way, like Heidi Fleiss and Wanda Barzee, the woman who kidnapped Elizabeth Smart.

00:02:19.700 I mean, it goes on.

00:02:21.320 But I think you're going to fall in love with Alice Marie Johnson today.

00:02:24.180 And maybe, maybe, even if you're a hardliner on law and order, take another look at how our criminal justice system has been handling some cases over the years in a way that has been refined, but could still use some more.

00:02:39.360 Very proud and happy to bring you Alice Marie Johnson today.

00:02:42.060 Coming up right after this.

00:02:48.880 Alice, hi.

00:02:50.160 Hi, Megan.

00:02:51.380 How are you?

00:02:52.460 I'm doing well.

00:02:53.400 I've moved back home to Mississippi, where I was born and raised, and it's a big change.

00:03:00.880 What are you doing these days?

00:03:02.240 Well, I have an organization called Taking Action for Good, TAG, and I've been very busy with that.

00:03:10.480 I've been traveling around to different states, working to really basically uplifting the need for criminal justice reform.

00:03:19.660 I'm not a lobbyist.

00:03:20.560 I'm just a champion for the people.

00:03:22.120 Sure, and honestly, you've got the history to back up your demands.

00:03:27.440 I mean, reading your story and your book really opened my eyes to the injustice of your situation.

00:03:34.320 I had heard the headlines, of course, when you were granted clemency, but really getting into it, it's stunning.

00:03:40.640 And I think you're an interesting case.

00:03:42.180 You don't deny that you did something wrong, that you did something criminal.

00:03:45.000 But the punishment did not fit the crime.

00:03:49.540 So let's just start before we get to all that at the beginning, as they say, because I think your backstory is really interesting.

00:03:56.040 You grew up in the segregated Jim Crow South, Mississippi, born in 1955 at a time when it wasn't...

00:04:05.000 You weren't set up for natural advantages, being born a Black girl in Mississippi during that time.

00:04:12.680 Right.

00:04:13.260 Tell us about how you lived and your family situation back then.

00:04:17.440 Megan, I came from a very large family.

00:04:20.640 My parents had nine children.

00:04:22.440 I'm dead, almost square in the middle of those children.

00:04:26.600 But I grew up, of course, in the South, as you said, in Jim Crow, Mississippi.

00:04:31.920 But during that time, there was so much, I'm going to say, so much pride in our neighborhoods.

00:04:42.280 We lived as a community, almost as a tribe, our whole community.

00:04:47.780 Everyone looked out for each other.

00:04:49.660 My parents, I grew up in a very strong Christian home.

00:04:54.700 We were in church all the time. 0.91

00:04:59.180 My father was a demon.

00:05:00.520 My mother was always the one doing welcoming announcements and doing the different programs at church. 0.96

00:05:07.200 And so I was very much involved in church activities and in my community, too.

00:05:13.600 I grew up in a...

00:05:14.920 I went to school in a segregated school.

00:05:17.060 And we didn't, you know, I'd never really had a lot of interaction with people of the opposite race, other than my mother.

00:05:27.600 She would, you know, in terms of friends, of young friends.

00:05:31.200 But my mother was, we always called her a woman ahead of her time because she was really and truly a healer in our community.

00:05:40.580 She was able to cross racial divides.

00:05:43.580 She was an excellent cook. 1.00

00:05:45.880 And she worked many different places.

00:05:49.160 We eventually, my parents eventually had their own restaurant.

00:05:52.900 But we grew up with, I'm just going to say, amazing parents who really and truly drilled home to us to look at people as people.

00:06:03.520 Not to judge people, not to judge people by their social economic condition, not to judge people by their race.

00:06:09.740 So one of my mother's good friends, even back then, was a white woman. 0.99

00:06:15.680 My mother, yes, my mother championed the poor people.

00:06:20.220 Many times she would show up in court.

00:06:22.500 And she definitely didn't have even a high school education.

00:06:25.740 But she was extremely smart.

00:06:28.020 And she would appeal their cases to the judge.

00:06:31.400 And she became something, I'm going to say, like a probation officer.

00:06:35.700 Because back then, she would tell them, I'll take them to church.

00:06:39.540 I'll get them right.

00:06:40.280 He comes from a good family.

00:06:41.720 She comes from a good family.

00:06:43.260 So we always had company at our house.

00:06:46.520 Always singing on Sundays around the piano and dinner.

00:06:50.040 And so I grew up pretty, you know, I grew up a pretty happy childhood.

00:06:53.640 That was my impression in reading your book, is that you were loved.

00:06:58.460 You had engaged parents.

00:07:00.260 You had, in the early years, the mean Mr. Abernathy, who you were working, I guess, in his cotton fields.

00:07:07.900 And tell us about your living situation.

00:07:09.620 I read 14 people in a two-bedroom house with outdoor plumbing and with newspaper instead of toilet paper.

00:07:15.700 No running water.

00:07:17.400 And how were you sleeping at night?

00:07:18.960 How are you doing 14 people in a two-bedroom house and working for Mr. Abernathy?

00:07:22.720 You would hope that you could sleep at the head of the bed and not at the foot of the bed.

00:07:27.300 We had pallets on the floor.

00:07:29.100 Everyone would be piled up in different beds, two, three beds in the room.

00:07:34.000 So I tried to sleep at the top.

00:07:36.100 But when I was, by the time I went to the cotton field, probably with a sack on me, as soon as I could really walk good, we had to hit the fields. 0.99

00:07:45.640 But even that work, you know, as a child, when you grow up in something, you don't really realize just how bad it is until someone has to tell you that it was really bad.

00:07:55.520 We were just happy.

00:07:56.720 We were just loved.

00:07:57.620 That was the ingredient in our house was a lot of love.

00:08:01.580 But my parents, you know, later on, I realized how hard they had it.

00:08:05.400 And my mother was truly a visionary, and she refused to stay in that condition and the sharecropping, because that was really a way to keep us really very much oppressed.

00:08:18.960 And my mother used her cooking skills to sell plates and food out of the trunk of the car at places where Mr. Abernathy would not know that she was doing it to save money so that we could escape that sharecropping life. 0.99

00:08:33.660 And they were able to do it.

00:08:35.420 We literally, it looked like a scene from Roots, how we had to escape under the cover of darkness to where they had bought a house, had bought one of those Jim Walter homes where they had to, you know, prefabricated type homes.

00:08:50.360 And at night, after a hard day, my father working in the barn and picking cotton, he would go and put sheetrock up, bring furniture.

00:09:00.920 My mother, they were very enterprising.

00:09:03.660 And just one night, I didn't even know what was going on.

00:09:06.120 But because I had such a big mouth, they had to make sure they covered my mouth.

00:09:09.760 And I didn't say anything.

00:09:11.440 So under the cloak of darkness, our cousins and other people we knew were pushing our car, literally like from Roots, until we got far enough to turn headlights on.

00:09:23.120 And that began our new life.

00:09:25.080 But my mother knew that education was the way to escape poverty. 0.91

00:09:31.060 So she was really focused on education.

00:09:33.880 All of my sisters and my one brother, they're all college educated.

00:09:39.500 They've all had very good careers.

00:09:41.900 But for me, Megan, I came up during the time of the 60s and 70s and everything was exciting.

00:09:51.380 That was a hippie move. 0.99

00:09:52.280 That was all of this stuff.

00:09:54.100 And I wanted a part of that.

00:09:56.380 I left under the covering of my church and got pregnant at 15 and married at 15 because back then you just did not walk around pregnant and not have a husband.

00:10:10.460 Now, wait, before we get to it, let me back you up just a little.

00:10:13.460 So you you get away from Mr. Abernathy.

00:10:16.560 And when you left that house in the cover of darkness, what what year would you say that was?

00:10:23.320 Sixty one, around 61.

00:10:25.620 It's just so crazy to think, you know, that here I am talking to you.

00:10:28.720 You live this.

00:10:29.520 You know, this history is not that far away from us.

00:10:32.560 You know, people kind of forget what life was like here not so long ago, you know, in your childhood.

00:10:39.860 So you guys get out your mom.

00:10:42.000 I do like the way you write about her cooking makes me really want to give it a try.

00:10:46.580 The blackberry cobbler and the smells wafting through your home and the fried chicken and the biscuits and the gravy.

00:10:52.540 And I think to myself, oh, my gosh, I need to try harder.

00:10:56.120 Oh, my goodness.

00:10:57.020 It's not my childhood.

00:10:59.660 Really, you know, the things that I experienced as a child and the survival of things that my parents did, they never, ever would give up hope on anything.

00:11:11.380 They were always praying people, always hopeful people that things are going to get better.

00:11:16.180 My mother used to say out of everything bad, something good can come out of it.

00:11:21.040 And I went even the worst times of my life.

00:11:25.520 I've kept that attitude that something good can come out of this.

00:11:29.660 I don't know what you're doing, Lord, but something good can come out of this.

00:11:33.220 And it's not being someone with their heads in the class because I've experienced much adversity in my life.

00:11:40.960 It has not been a bed of roses.

00:11:42.980 In fact, each time I had to fight my way through.

00:11:46.480 Well, it seemed to me that you were this strong.

00:11:50.360 You know, you say big mouth young gal who would stand up to bullies, who would try to fight injustice when you saw it. 1.00

00:11:56.780 And that early pregnancy, you know, losing your virginity, you say at 14 and then and then being forced to marry Charles at age 15 because you're expecting a baby was the first sort of jagged edge.

00:12:10.680 Right. The first thing that set you off course.

00:12:13.340 But you did rebound.

00:12:14.860 I mean, you wound up having two kids and, you know, a couple of years.

00:12:18.200 But did you get your high school degree?

00:12:21.980 Yes.

00:12:22.820 In fact, I had scholarships at my graduation when I graduated because I had a, you know, I never dated.

00:12:31.660 Charles was my first, you know, the first person I'd ever dated.

00:12:35.000 That was just something that happened.

00:12:37.860 And I knew that there was no way he was going to allow me to go away on a campus, even though I was making outstanding grades in school.

00:12:47.100 So half day I'd be in school and the other half I'd slip and take classes with this secretary of college.

00:12:55.100 And I just really it was through our Bowtech program.

00:12:58.120 So I was prepared when I graduated to get a job because I did not want to go back to manual labor, labor.

00:13:06.540 I knew I had to have skills.

00:13:08.820 And so I really concentrated.

00:13:10.460 And even in the way that he found out that I had done that was the secretary of college showed up on the night of my graduation because I was the fastest typist they'd had.

00:13:21.160 I could type nearly 100 words a minute with no errors with everything.

00:13:25.400 I was laser focused on it.

00:13:26.900 And this is back in the age before we had word processors where you could just delete if you screwed up.

00:13:32.180 You had to be really good back then.

00:13:33.800 You had to be good.

00:13:34.780 And that served me well, Megan, because it allowed me to.

00:13:38.880 In fact, I integrated our offices in my little town.

00:13:43.280 They never had a black woman work in an office. 1.00

00:13:47.340 And I was the first one in my town to get an office job.

00:13:51.320 So that was a really big thing.

00:13:52.920 And it just so happened to be at a factory where my father was working.

00:13:56.900 So he was so proud to have his daughter working in the office.

00:14:02.100 Then you get an incredible thing happening in your life.

00:14:07.060 Opportunity knocked.

00:14:08.760 A colleague died.

00:14:10.620 You wrote a poem, as I recall from your book.

00:14:15.100 And there was a senior executive of FedEx who saw your poem.

00:14:21.180 That's not where you were working.

00:14:22.480 But this person saw your poem.

00:14:24.160 And what happened?

00:14:25.740 He saw my poem.

00:14:26.900 Little did I know the Greg, the person who had been tragically killed.

00:14:32.300 I've always been a writer.

00:14:34.860 I started writing when I was 10 years old.

00:14:36.940 My first poem was about God because that's what I knew.

00:14:41.000 And I'd always express, even during my terrible marriage, I'd write poems to express the way

00:14:47.860 that I felt.

00:14:49.220 And so when I went in that morning to work at the Urban League and I found out Greg had been

00:14:54.520 tragically killed, I put into words, I think, the feeling of everyone in that office.

00:15:01.140 And that night, Jim Perkins, who was the senior vice president at FedEx over personnel,

00:15:08.040 he was there.

00:15:09.900 And Greg was his mentee.

00:15:11.520 And someone from the Urban League showed him the poem, and he sent for me.

00:15:16.980 And he asked me if I'd written that.

00:15:19.500 He was in tears.

00:15:20.840 And I said, yes.

00:15:21.680 And he simply asked me, would you like to work for FedEx?

00:15:24.580 That's how that gift made room for me.

00:15:29.580 So you take the job at FedEx.

00:15:31.680 And forgive me, but I would think a woman in your position, this is a great opportunity.

00:15:36.360 A lot of people would have kept their heads down, their mouths shut, just done the work

00:15:41.840 and not made waves.

00:15:43.200 But you made waves in a good way.

00:15:45.240 You actually saw injustice there.

00:15:47.300 You saw that women weren't really getting the same opportunities, that people of color

00:15:51.660 weren't getting the same opportunities.

00:15:53.760 And you complained about it.

00:15:55.340 And this is what we have to be in the 1970s, 80s now.

00:15:58.620 I mean, this is not a time when those kinds of complaints were met with open minds normally.

00:16:04.720 Oh, for sure not.

00:16:06.840 There was really a lot of tension in the office.

00:16:10.200 People were afraid because no one bucked the system.

00:16:14.180 But I had to.

00:16:15.320 I had to speak out against what I saw.

00:16:18.420 And I started documenting.

00:16:21.040 I was considered one of the biggest producers in my department, the best ones really.

00:16:26.540 But I was being passed over.

00:16:28.640 The women were being passed over. 1.00

00:16:30.160 It was not only women of color.

00:16:32.520 It was all women were being passed over. 1.00

00:16:34.600 So I documented what was taking place.

00:16:37.360 And I wrote it up.

00:16:38.660 And it was such a tense time.

00:16:41.920 And when they had the meeting, Jim Perkins showed up for the meeting.

00:16:47.340 And he was the highest level.

00:16:48.920 That was shocking.

00:16:49.640 And he agreed.

00:16:51.480 And he really, really got on to the people who were doing those things in our department, because that is not what that company stands for.

00:17:01.440 So it changed the whole system within FedEx.

00:17:04.920 I didn't know that fighting for stuff, it seems like, as I say, I've had to fight for things that I knew were wrong.

00:17:14.600 And it was corrected.

00:17:16.280 And I used my other abilities to get a job in another department.

00:17:21.140 And it was in computer operations.

00:17:23.980 It was because of my interpersonal skills.

00:17:26.340 And I didn't really know that much about computers.

00:17:28.720 But they needed to balance off their management team.

00:17:32.460 And I had a very good interview and had really good creative ideas for this new department.

00:17:38.300 And they hired me as a manager.

00:17:40.300 And I learned everything that I could.

00:17:43.100 And I became savvy in that department.

00:17:46.040 Still living in Mississippi, right? 0.90

00:17:48.440 Still living in Mississippi. 0.81

00:17:49.460 Manager now for FedEx.

00:17:50.820 Making good money.

00:17:52.220 Good money.

00:17:52.660 By this time, I'd moved to Memphis.

00:17:54.980 By this time, my husband moved to Memphis.

00:17:58.100 He followed me there.

00:17:59.380 We probably broke up every single year of our marriage and got back together.

00:18:04.460 But I'd moved to Memphis, took my children to Memphis because there was not good housing in Mississippi.

00:18:10.160 And when I left him, I left him pregnant. 0.99

00:18:13.300 And so I left and moved to Memphis.

00:18:16.600 And that's how I ended up working for the Urban League.

00:18:19.800 So at that time, Memphis gave me new opportunities.

00:18:24.500 Charles comes in and out of the picture.

00:18:26.680 It wasn't a happy marriage.

00:18:28.460 But eventually, he leaves the picture.

00:18:32.160 You're done with Charles.

00:18:33.720 And unfortunately, the man who came into the picture did not bring good things.

00:18:41.300 And that was Ted.

00:18:42.280 I would say, you tell me, but that feels like the beginning of the downward spiral.

00:18:46.740 It was very much the beginning.

00:18:49.080 I'm a very successful manager by this time at FedEx.

00:18:53.880 I've been with him 10 years.

00:18:56.040 Ted comes along.

00:18:57.760 He's a gambler.

00:18:59.500 And because I really had not been, I'm going to say, out there in the world,

00:19:04.840 I've been concentrating all of my time on being a mother and really trying to excel in my career.

00:19:12.280 So my children were really my life.

00:19:15.200 And so Ted comes in, and there's bright lights and the excitement of gambling.

00:19:20.680 Megan, it's a whole new world for me.

00:19:24.280 I really didn't realize how a person could get a gambling addiction, but I did.

00:19:29.080 Right.

00:19:29.540 It was fun.

00:19:30.560 You hadn't had all that much fun in your life at that point.

00:19:33.680 And he's taking you to the dog track, and you're having that thrill of seeing your dog win.

00:19:39.100 And I understand that's how it starts, right?

00:19:41.360 You just think it's harmless fun, and it can spiral.

00:19:43.520 It definitely spiraled.

00:19:46.840 You try to, you give away a jackpot, trying to win a jackpot, giving away everything.

00:19:52.400 And before I knew it, I was so deep in debt because bills weren't being paid because there

00:19:58.600 was a panic.

00:19:59.460 I've lost this, and I can't afford to lose it.

00:20:01.700 I need to play more to get this back because I can't afford it.

00:20:04.680 And I really had developed a gambling addiction without knowing what a gambling addiction felt

00:20:09.200 like.

00:20:10.360 Exactly.

00:20:11.620 And so I'm traveling all over the country for FedEx, training other people in management

00:20:16.380 by this time.

00:20:17.660 I'm facilitating a class called Is Management for Me?

00:20:21.480 And I'm training people on our service manual because I always, no matter where I went, Megan,

00:20:27.920 I'd always excel because I'd throw myself into my work and try to always be the very top,

00:20:33.820 the very best.

00:20:34.620 I always felt like that I had to do more.

00:20:37.600 I had to be better.

00:20:38.800 I had to do more because it was hard for especially a woman, especially a Black woman to rise up 1.00

00:20:45.180 through the ranks.

00:20:46.020 So we've got to do even more to prove that we're the best.

00:20:50.480 And that's the mentality, really, that I had going on that I didn't want, because I came

00:20:55.920 from such an ambitious and competitive family, too, I didn't want my family to know that I

00:21:02.300 was in so much trouble.

00:21:04.060 And they would have helped me. 0.99

00:21:07.440 And I did something stupid. 0.99

00:21:09.800 I used to train. 1.00

00:21:10.940 I'd get expense reports.

00:21:13.120 I mean, expense money.

00:21:14.540 My trip was canceled.

00:21:15.860 I loaned the money to Ted, who did not pay it back to me.

00:21:19.440 It wasn't even $5,000.

00:21:21.540 So my career went up in smoke.

00:21:25.120 They found out.

00:21:25.860 Yes, they found out because he kept until the very last minute saying that he was going

00:21:31.660 to give me the money back.

00:21:33.640 And I'm nervous even until because you only had 30 days to turn your expense report in.

00:21:39.380 And the trip had been canceled.

00:21:41.160 And I loaned him the money because he was going to win it back.

00:21:44.820 He had some sure things.

00:21:46.400 And it was going to help me get out of this hole that I dug myself into.

00:21:50.160 Instead, I lose my job.

00:21:53.340 Everyone is shocked that I have lost my job.

00:21:56.760 Me and my husband, family divorced.

00:21:59.800 And during this time, it was crazy.

00:22:03.140 I don't know if you probably not.

00:22:06.720 But when you're in a situation that you are, it's almost like standing and looking at a surreal

00:22:13.040 situation.

00:22:13.840 I'm outside, almost out of body.

00:22:16.500 That's just how crazy I felt at that time.

00:22:18.940 So I'm observing these things that are taking place in my life.

00:22:22.280 But it's like I'm looking at someone else.

00:22:25.120 Who is that person that's doing this crazy stuff who just lost her job? 0.59

00:22:29.500 I don't know what's going to happen with my children.

00:22:31.920 My ex-husband has disappeared, literally.

00:22:35.280 Zero child support.

00:22:36.740 I've got a daughter in college and four more children.

00:22:39.640 You have five kids, right?

00:22:40.680 You have five kids.

00:22:41.420 Five kids.

00:22:42.640 So FedEx finds out about embezzlement.

00:22:46.700 They fire you.

00:22:47.520 You're facing foreclosure on your home.

00:22:50.660 Your car got repoed.

00:22:52.440 You had to declare bankruptcy.

00:22:53.980 I mean, this woman who was a manager for FedEx, who was training managers, you're on your way

00:22:58.160 up.

00:22:58.860 It's like, you know, the course of what?

00:23:01.220 A year you went from that to all these financial problems.

00:23:05.580 Life is falling apart.

00:23:06.700 And then you lost your son.

00:23:10.920 And did that happen?

00:23:12.340 How long after the termination and the bankruptcy and so on did you lose Coco?

00:23:17.960 I lost him within not even a year.

00:23:24.240 Not even a year.

00:23:25.040 It was months after that that I lost my son, who was my baby son, who I used to say that

00:23:32.980 I never let it.

00:23:33.840 I always didn't let my baby sleep in the bed with me so they wouldn't get spoiled to that. 0.98

00:23:38.260 But because me and my husband, we were separated when Corey was born, he slept in the bed with me.

00:23:46.180 I let him sleep in the bed with me.

00:23:47.840 That was my baby.

00:23:49.320 So we were always close.

00:23:51.540 And he always was a gift from God.

00:23:56.000 I do know that because the way that he was, was just, he was too sweet.

00:24:01.380 Everyone in the family loved Coco.

00:24:04.380 He was very giving, very talented.

00:24:07.260 He moved up an extra grade.

00:24:09.680 He was a grade ahead of himself.

00:24:11.260 Very smart.

00:24:12.980 And it was my other son, Coco was 12.

00:24:17.700 My other son was 14, who was driving the scooter and a truck hit them.

00:24:22.360 And we didn't determine who did, who was wrong because later on, they put a stop sign up there.

00:24:28.120 But I could not bear to go to court to try to get into any suits or anything like that

00:24:34.240 because the driver of the other truck was 16 and no money, no amount of money could bring my baby back to me.

00:24:41.840 And it was, I didn't have insurance, could even bury my child.

00:24:45.920 I've already made this bad decision to become involved in something with passing messages.

00:24:52.360 Just to keep my lights on and put food on the table.

00:24:56.460 All right.

00:24:56.560 Let's get to that though.

00:24:57.440 Let's, let's start with that first moment though.

00:24:59.360 Cause that's, that is the before and after moment because you're, you're struggling financially.

00:25:04.240 You lost the job.

00:25:05.360 You have no help from Charles.

00:25:07.340 Who's not supporting any of the five children.

00:25:10.460 And then you, you meet, as I understand it, your cousin is the one who first brings you this quote

00:25:17.620 opportunity involving drugs and Ted.

00:25:22.740 And really you describe it in your book as it's the opportunity to become what you call a quote

00:25:26.940 phone mule.

00:25:28.300 So what, what was that moment like?

00:25:30.380 Cause you, you know, she's offering you an, an illegal opportunity, but it's basically fast cash.

00:25:36.720 It's fast cash.

00:25:37.900 But when she offered and asked me if I knew anyone, I was very insulted.

00:25:42.300 Uh, she saw the condition that I was in, but I really think that because she went over to

00:25:48.120 the dog races and she saw Ted over there too, I can't say this for sure, but I really believe

00:25:54.360 that she knew that cause there was no reason I'd never been involved in anything illegal

00:25:59.920 before or drugs for sure.

00:26:02.140 But they saw, they knew the state that I was in financially and she possibly recognized

00:26:08.320 that maybe Ted was a little bit shady.

00:26:10.760 And so when she asked me if I knew anyone, I told her, no, no, anyone who, what, if I

00:26:17.720 knew anyone that could move some drugs.

00:26:20.740 So she had a, she had a supply of drugs that she was looking to get out there on this street.

00:26:25.180 How did she, how did she have a supply of drugs? 1.00

00:26:27.480 Her husband, her husband, she was living the high life.

00:26:30.800 Her husband was a drug dealer.

00:26:34.240 And so he needed distribution.

00:26:37.120 Right.

00:26:37.620 That's exactly what he needed.

00:26:39.260 And so I didn't even tell Ted immediately because I was very insulted that she would

00:26:43.680 even say that to me.

00:26:44.880 But when I did tell him, we were just having a conversation.

00:26:48.400 I told him the foolish question that my cousin had asked me and he asked me, what did you

00:26:52.740 tell her? 0.71

00:26:53.640 And I said, I told her, no.

00:26:56.760 And I said, do you know someone?

00:26:58.680 He said, yeah, you're looking at me.

00:27:00.100 So he was really small time doing some things on the side.

00:27:04.560 And this like gave him an opportunity too.

00:27:08.900 And, um, my role is, I really didn't know I, even to this day, I've never touched drugs.

00:27:16.820 I've never handled any drugs or profit to deals.

00:27:19.500 My role was to, when they caught coming town, uh, whoever's bringing drugs in, and I say they,

00:27:28.360 because I didn't meet them, when the person came in town, they were given my number because

00:27:33.700 no one in the streets, um, I have nothing.

00:27:36.620 I don't have a criminal record.

00:27:38.320 I have nothing.

00:27:39.340 So I'm a good go between.

00:27:41.260 They call me and they say, this is the number that I can be reached at without giving me

00:27:47.540 the name.

00:27:48.040 So I call either, I call Ted and I say, this is the number that someone can reach them

00:27:55.000 at.

00:27:55.360 And then I, that's it.

00:27:56.940 Why didn't, why wasn't it set up such that Ted could just call the person directly?

00:28:01.500 Like, why didn't the dealer or whoever came to town with the drugs just call Ted directly?

00:28:05.740 Why'd you have to be involved?

00:28:06.680 Well, I found that out too.

00:28:08.420 When I went to prison, um, well, I found out that you're the, you're like the mule that

00:28:14.900 keeps the connection.

00:28:16.920 If one gets caught, they have, they don't have a tray, a trail to the next person.

00:28:22.980 I see.

00:28:23.940 So they're looking for cover.

00:28:25.160 They have to make it as attenuated as possible just to make it a little tougher for law enforcement.

00:28:30.800 Absolutely.

00:28:31.560 Absolutely.

00:28:32.040 But for me, it's a, it's kind of easy money.

00:28:36.040 I shut my eyes to what it really was that I'm involved in a drug conspiracy, but I was.

00:28:42.040 And as I've said, Megan, what I did was absolutely wrong.

00:28:45.260 And even after this had gone on, my first thing they gave me was a thousand dollars.

00:28:51.160 I was so happy because I literally could get my, keep my lights on.

00:28:56.280 And, uh, when even this happened maybe two more times and I can't do it.

00:29:03.320 Cause now I feel like I'm getting in too deep and then my son gets killed and I can't even

00:29:08.840 bury my son because I have no insurance and no money.

00:29:12.580 And so I'm back.

00:29:14.440 I'm back.

00:29:15.220 In fact, I had stepped away from it and it's like, don't call me anymore.

00:29:20.060 And then this happens and then I'm all the way in now.

00:29:25.020 Up next, the law catches up with Alice and in a massive and massively unfair way.

00:29:32.400 Don't go away.

00:29:36.160 I didn't know what conspiracy was.

00:29:38.860 I didn't know that conspiracy meant that you're charged with every element of the crime that

00:29:43.140 has taken place.

00:29:44.060 And in fact, my attorney that we hired told me, don't take a plea.

00:29:50.220 They, they offered me three to five years.

00:29:52.860 We went to this area and we talked to them and they said in probably less, you can be

00:29:57.540 out way less time than that, uh, because you'll get, um, we'll get you to a camp somewhere

00:30:03.020 low and, uh, you three years, probably due to, and I mean, all of this discussion is taking

00:30:09.320 place and I go outside with my attorney and he said, don't do it.

00:30:12.660 You don't have any money.

00:30:13.640 Cause I don't have this big money.

00:30:15.640 I'm still, you know, I'm still kind of struggling.

00:30:18.120 I'm still, we don't have any money.

00:30:20.240 I don't even have $500 in the bank.

00:30:22.820 And so your kids at this point, I've got a daughter in college.

00:30:26.360 I've got actually, uh, two children in college, both my, uh, older two daughters.

00:30:33.600 And then my, uh, last two, I've got a son that's a teenager.

00:30:37.760 So when this happened, this arrest happened, my son, this 18 drops out of high school.

00:30:44.900 Uh, he was making very good grades.

00:30:46.660 He can't stand the pressure.

00:30:48.420 And my other son, I mean, my house is just falling apart and my son had not been dead that

00:30:54.180 long.

00:30:54.480 We never got any treatment, no counseling.

00:30:57.240 So I've got my son who was the driver who is in pain.

00:31:01.720 I'm still in pain.

00:31:02.980 And we're just trying to really get through, uh, what the things that have taken place

00:31:08.340 with us.

00:31:09.780 So I get arrested really year after my son, but we were out for two years waiting for

00:31:15.400 trial.

00:31:16.660 And you, I mean, it's just so awful to think that you, you were offered three to five.

00:31:21.380 You could have been out in two.

00:31:22.380 And of course, it's one of those things where you look back after you get the verdict and

00:31:26.260 think, why, why?

00:31:27.360 But the lawyer was advising you that he didn't think it was a good deal.

00:31:31.380 And you were a first time offender and you'd never, you'd never been in trouble before.

00:31:36.820 And it wasn't a quote, violent crime.

00:31:39.060 It's not to diminish what passing drugs can do, but it wasn't considered a violent crime.

00:31:44.740 And so you decide to go to trial and the amount, I mean, I just can't imagine the amount of

00:31:49.920 stress that was on you day after day.

00:31:54.660 What was it?

00:31:55.440 Six weeks.

00:31:55.980 How long was your trial?

00:31:57.520 My trial was six weeks, but they gave me such a low bond.

00:32:01.160 My bond, Megan, was only $10,000.

00:32:04.260 And I had to pay $1,000, of course, to a bail bondsman.

00:32:07.780 So my attorneys told me that that's further proof that they know, even though you got these

00:32:12.420 high charges against you, they know that you really, they know what you've really done.

00:32:18.320 And there's no money.

00:32:19.880 There's no drugs.

00:32:21.020 It's all testimony because no drugs have been apprehended.

00:32:24.120 And that's why I was convicted of attempted possession.

00:32:27.700 However, the people who were at the top, this is a crazy thing.

00:32:32.980 Even Ted wasn't really at the top.

00:32:35.420 The top people that was bringing drugs and getting, I'm going to say the lion's share,

00:32:42.280 they got very small sentences because they testified against me.

00:32:45.800 And they turned around and say, I'm their boss.

00:32:47.660 How could I possibly be your boss when you have the drug criminal records? 0.98

00:32:53.200 All of them had done time, but they all made deals because I'm the fool that goes to trial. 0.77

00:33:01.040 And so I become their boss in everything that's happened. 0.87

00:33:06.080 And also they testified to what we call in prison, ghost dope.

00:33:10.020 Everyone was trying to tell this fantastic tale of how big they were and because it makes

00:33:17.980 their sentences less.

00:33:19.560 I would look in their eyes while they were testifying.

00:33:23.140 And you probably saw in my book, one of the guys who said that he knew me and how he met

00:33:27.880 me, that I look the same because there's four of us who go to trial.

00:33:31.960 I'm looking at him and I'm saying, that man is looking at my co-defendant.

00:33:35.560 He's never seen me in his life, but they've shown him maybe pictures.

00:33:39.640 And she had a little bit of a lighter complexion than mine, but we'd look nothing a lot like.

00:33:44.940 So when I asked my attorney to tell him to come down and identify me, he comes straight

00:33:50.000 and points at my co-defendant and say, that's Alice. 0.93

00:33:54.860 You say that by the time all these guys, you know, because they're trying to offer you up

00:33:59.640 on a silver platter to save themselves.

00:34:01.660 By the time that testimony was done, you said that the court was looking at you like you

00:34:06.700 were El Chapo.

00:34:07.380 I mean, it was, you had been elevated from phone mule to criminal drug Lord running a

00:34:13.840 cartel.

00:34:14.740 I'm the queen pin.

00:34:16.500 I said, if I am a, if, if I'm your boss, I'm the worst boss in history because I don't

00:34:21.920 even know what you should be selling your drugs for.

00:34:25.260 Where's my nice car?

00:34:26.420 Where's my, where, where are all my nice things?

00:34:28.560 Where, where's all the, the, the rewards?

00:34:32.080 Look, I don't even have a pay for a car.

00:34:33.980 My house is not even a hundred thousand dollar house.

00:34:37.800 I'm still not, I'm, they've got things that are repossessed.

00:34:42.440 I mean, that are not seized, not repossessed.

00:34:44.800 They had seized property, seized cars, seized money.

00:34:48.300 They couldn't seize anything for me because there was nothing to seize.

00:34:51.200 So after trial or, or in the course, I think it was toward the end of trial, the government

00:34:57.080 comes to you and they make another plea offer.

00:35:00.200 And what did they offer you?

00:35:01.980 This time it was eight to 10 years.

00:35:04.440 And you rejected it.

00:35:06.340 My attorney said, no, they're only doing that because they're scared.

00:35:09.100 They're no, they know that this case is falling apart.

00:35:12.080 Uh, because they, they brought drugs in from another case because they hadn't seized any

00:35:17.920 drugs in my case.

00:35:19.300 And they told the jury, this is what drugs look like.

00:35:22.560 Well, you can no longer do that.

00:35:24.200 The laws have changed and there was also no quantity.

00:35:28.040 And so I was convicted of attempted possession of 107 pounds of drugs.

00:35:34.200 But there is this little thing called estimated based on testimony that they escalated that

00:35:40.640 to an estimated two to 3,000 of where in the world those numbers came from is beyond me.

00:35:47.940 But that was allowed back there.

00:35:49.660 You can't do that today, Megan.

00:35:51.760 Did you ever have a feeling at the time, Alice, you know, you being a God-fearing woman,

00:35:55.520 a person of faith raised in a good home, good parents.

00:35:58.580 Do you ever have that moment when you were doing the phone calls of like, I'm facility,

00:36:03.060 I'm facilitating something bad, you know, something that's going to hurt children,

00:36:06.460 something that's illegal for a good reason?

00:36:09.480 Well, at the time that I was doing it, I knew it was something bad and even trying to

00:36:15.680 step away from that.

00:36:17.360 And really, I'm going to tell you, Megan, my biggest, uh, come to Jesus moment was that

00:36:23.820 with that was when I went to prison and I was among the drug addicts.

00:36:28.900 And I remember being broken, just really on the floor in tears and crying out to the Lord

00:36:35.980 for forgiveness that I had played any role in this evil being put.

00:36:40.920 I don't care what the role is.

00:36:42.380 It still was a role in it that I had been a part of something because somehow, somehow

00:36:48.240 I just let myself that this is not so bad.

00:36:52.340 I'm not the one that's out there really doing it, but I was helping facilitate it.

00:36:56.060 That's why I can't make any excuses for that.

00:36:58.780 So you go into court on October 31st, Halloween, 1996.

00:37:04.200 And did the jury stand up and read the verdict?

00:37:07.940 They gave it to the judge.

00:37:09.960 And so were you expecting to hear not guilty in that moment?

00:37:14.140 Yes, because the jury had been hung for almost a week.

00:37:17.840 And, um, in fact, it got down to just an 11 person jury and they had been hung and we

00:37:25.220 were getting reports that they were screaming because they were trying to understand the

00:37:28.580 conspiracy part of it.

00:37:30.940 And so they were asking for, cause we had the notes, they were asking for, uh, the elements,

00:37:38.500 uh, because it was very evident that I was not a drug seller, but the conspiracy put me right

00:37:44.920 dead in the, in the highest level because of what was testified to in my case.

00:37:52.200 So, uh, they gave it to the judge and then the jury foreman read the verdict.

00:37:58.260 And, uh, it was, what was that like?

00:38:01.060 It was just really, uh, unbelievable.

00:38:04.120 I went to bed that night, not even thinking that I wasn't going to, was not coming back home.

00:38:09.220 And so when that verdict was read, I was immediately taken into custody and I never forget, um, as

00:38:16.440 my, I've got handcuffs on the agents, the lead, leading me out and they're in my ear said, trick

00:38:22.320 or treat, trick, a treat, trick, a treat.

00:38:25.340 And it was just, I've looked back at my parents.

00:38:28.300 They were just sobbing and my children there.

00:38:32.020 And then someone whispered in my daughter's ear that she was one of the, uh, we had two prosecutors

00:38:38.620 there that, uh, you can kiss your mama goodbye now because you won't see her again, free,

00:38:44.780 alive.

00:38:45.860 Oh God.

00:38:48.060 You, you had been told that some of the others involved had very severe sentences, including

00:38:55.540 Ted, right?

00:38:56.660 What did Ted get?

00:38:58.000 Ted got a life.

00:38:59.400 He got the same thing that I received.

00:39:01.000 Uh, he got more life sentences, but how many life sentences can you get?

00:39:05.020 So, but you didn't, and you had seen that the recommendation by the prosecutors that you

00:39:12.100 receive a life sentence, but you say in the book, it didn't, you didn't really understand

00:39:17.580 it.

00:39:17.840 You didn't, it didn't don't, you did not think that that was going to happen to you.

00:39:21.260 So you go back into court on the sentencing day. 0.69

00:39:25.160 And it sounds like frankly, a nasty judge, this woman. 1.00

00:39:29.680 And what did she say? 0.75

00:39:31.280 She recommended that I go to a mental facility because a woman like myself basically would 1.00

00:39:38.120 have a heart.

00:39:39.320 I would have to come to grips with my sentence.

00:39:41.840 When I asked her for mercy, she said, mercy.

00:39:46.160 Uh, anyway, it was just crazy.

00:39:48.480 But when she said that to me, that I would need mental to be at a mental facility coming

00:39:54.520 to grips with, uh, this life sentence, honestly, Megan, she really helped inspire me at that

00:40:00.900 moment because something rose up into me.

00:40:03.520 And I thought to myself, you will lose your mind before I lose mine.

00:40:08.960 I mean, you just must've been stunned.

00:40:11.160 I, in the, in the book you write, I only now understood when, when you heard life plus

00:40:15.920 25 years, the gravity of my situation.

00:40:19.140 I mean, I can't imagine how big that moment is when they're telling you, as you put it

00:40:24.040 in the book, it's an unexecuted death sentence.

00:40:26.860 Yes.

00:40:27.540 Because you, my daughter came to visit me in tears at one of the prisons.

00:40:33.400 She was so tired of seeing me there and they, she was having such a hard time. 1.00

00:40:38.600 And she said, mama coming to see you in prison. 0.93

00:40:41.780 She was crying.

00:40:42.680 She said, it's like visiting a grave site over and over.

00:40:45.940 She said, we can go, I can come and see the box, the place where your body is laying, but

00:40:50.680 I could never take you home again.

00:40:52.800 And she was, she broke down.

00:40:55.220 It was a terrible moment.

00:40:57.720 There must've been some, some serious depression.

00:41:01.800 I mean, I just can't imagine saying goodbye to your children, including teenagers, as you

00:41:08.440 head off to a life sentence in prison, knowing you're, you're not going to be with them again.

00:41:14.180 Yeah.

00:41:14.660 My, my attorney told me after the verdict and he came to see me in the jail.

00:41:19.700 He said, Alice, don't worry.

00:41:21.160 It's a, you may have to do 13 months.

00:41:23.760 He said, this trial was so awful.

00:41:26.120 He said, I'll have you out in 13 months.

00:41:28.400 He said, with the appeal, we'll get you out because what has taken place with you is wrong.

00:41:33.420 And I remember telling him 13 months.

00:41:35.840 I can't do 13 months.

00:41:39.080 Meanwhile, you would wind up in there for 21 years.

00:41:43.320 You, you write about how you, you started off in a California prison.

00:41:48.300 So they move you from Memphis all the way across the country, 35 hour drive to California.

00:41:54.760 And just, can you just frame some of the indignities?

00:41:58.900 You're in a small cell with two other women. 0.99

00:42:01.120 And what were some of the indignities that you experienced on your way into becoming a

00:42:06.400 lifer as they're known?

00:42:08.360 Well, even, even the travel there, you know, not having experienced anything like that,

00:42:14.860 having to really squat, cough.

00:42:18.360 I'm just going to be graphic.

00:42:20.360 Pull your cheeks and cough and, and, and make sure, cough it over and over until you make

00:42:26.620 sure that they can see that you're not carrying anything in any body cavities.

00:42:30.980 Hair rubbed through ears, down your throat, look at making sure you're not hiding anything,

00:42:36.720 but just not even having the privacy of just using the toilet.

00:42:43.420 I'm using the toilet with other women, three other women in the room. 1.00

00:42:49.140 And there's zero privacy.

00:42:53.520 Even the pat downs, when they pat you down to go places, they've stopped some of that.

00:42:59.980 But I remember one, one of the places that I was in, a male guard just really going too

00:43:07.540 far with how they pat us down and run their hands over us up in places they shouldn't be doing.

00:43:14.380 And you, you really can't say anything about that because then you become a target because

00:43:19.320 you're coming against an officer.

00:43:20.580 It's so sad because it's like, I think of the you at FedEx trying to, to raise women up and

00:43:27.560 fight injustice and challenging the bullies when you were a kid.

00:43:31.600 And now you're forced to endure that even, even convicted criminals should not be forced

00:43:37.720 to endure these circumstances.

00:43:39.000 That's, that's, it's totally inappropriate and unethical.

00:43:41.660 And yet there's no way out.

00:43:44.340 You knew it.

00:43:45.340 There's, there's no way of challenging it.

00:43:47.080 And I went in, I went in even during the time of the month when I would have a minister

00:43:52.640 cycle, you know, paths were traded back then, like something really precious.

00:43:58.160 Cause you could not get enough.

00:44:00.880 We were sanitary paths, sanitary paths.

00:44:03.060 We're only a lot allocated.

00:44:04.620 And if you wanted, um, if you wanted tampons, if, unless you had money to buy them, you just

00:44:10.540 weren't going to get those things.

00:44:12.260 So even just running out of this, just the most basics, basic of necessities.

00:44:18.880 It was, it was, it was the living conditions were inhumane.

00:44:24.040 You know, I've heard that it is very dehumanizing.

00:44:27.120 Even at a dog shelter, uh, they have to have so much space for the animals, but that was not

00:44:33.420 taken into consideration as the female population started ballooning. 0.97

00:44:37.800 In fact, it went up almost 800%.

00:44:40.300 They didn't have enough female facilities. 1.00

00:44:43.020 It was worse on the women than anyone. 1.00

00:44:45.360 So they just packed more beds and packed more people in.

00:44:48.720 And we were just really pressed in like sardines.

00:44:51.980 But one thing that I did when I got there, uh, something that really, really helped me was

00:44:59.000 this is the, this is the thing that got me through.

00:45:02.540 It was really and truly my faith and really looking around and seeing conditions.

00:45:06.500 And once again, that fighter rose up in me and I saw at my very first prison that women 0.82

00:45:13.240 with long sentences, I hadn't even been there a year and here I am challenging the system

00:45:18.960 that women with long sentences were denied certain educational opportunities.

00:45:23.580 They quickly put me in the vocational area teaching and helping women get ready for re-entry

00:45:30.180 when their sentences were short and teaching them how to type.

00:45:33.900 So all those skills came in handy because I had a good job, uh, in prison.

00:45:39.040 And, um, I noticed that these women, it was like a melon, a bad melancholy with the women 1.00

00:45:45.320 who had long sentences like me.

00:45:47.180 Some had 20, 30, where they couldn't take, they couldn't take certain classes.

00:45:51.000 And I said, why is this so?

00:45:53.460 How do you tell a woman not to hope?

00:45:55.840 And they said, Ms. Alice has always been like this.

00:45:58.840 You're just new, you're just fresh here.

00:46:00.980 And you, you have to remember you gave up your freedom.

00:46:03.840 You're in prison now.

00:46:04.860 And it's not like you're going to get equal anything.

00:46:07.680 I said, but this is basic.

00:46:09.280 I said, we do.

00:46:10.140 So I started going to the law library and studying constitutional rights as a prisoner.

00:46:14.760 And I just made a decision.

00:46:16.880 I'm going to challenge this system.

00:46:18.540 Whatever happens, it happens.

00:46:20.540 And I did.

00:46:21.560 And I won.

00:46:23.340 And it was like big jubilee that took place.

00:46:26.620 I didn't just win for myself, for the women.

00:46:29.020 I won for all of them everywhere.

00:46:32.140 And, uh, in fact, Megan, I didn't even know that anyone would ever know anything about this.

00:46:37.900 I had a friend, Cheryl, who stayed at that prison when I left.

00:46:41.020 She said, every time she see women with long sentences get in that class, you'd always tell 1.00

00:46:45.580 them you have Alice Johnson to thank for this.

00:46:48.380 But, uh, when I came out my first year, I have to tell you, cause this is related to

00:46:51.820 that incident.

00:46:53.120 Uh, it was the, that came to the attention, not because I told them, I never told them

00:46:58.900 this to the old international women's day on March 8, 2019, I was summoned to the United

00:47:05.720 Nations.

00:47:06.340 I'd already, I was, I was already notified that I was receiving this honor and I was very

00:47:13.080 surprised.

00:47:13.740 And it was four women from around the world who they had selected as women's rights defenders.

00:47:20.060 And I was the only one from North America.

00:47:23.080 Wow.

00:47:24.040 So I went to the United Nations.

00:47:25.940 I hadn't even been out of prison a year, but it was because of that work fighting to

00:47:30.820 change a system and the series was called the, uh, courage to question out of everything

00:47:37.680 bad.

00:47:38.460 Something good can come as your mom said.

00:47:41.660 Yeah.

00:47:42.180 So you're, can I just ask you as an aside?

00:47:44.520 Cause I did think it was kind of interesting in this California prison.

00:47:47.140 You had some famous inmates who, who was there that was famous.

00:47:50.760 It's kind of interesting just to know what you saw or what, what that was like.

00:47:53.560 Heidi Fleiss, uh, Pat, Patty Hurst had just left back.

00:47:58.220 Her father had built this nice wing part of the unit she was in.

00:48:02.780 Just the way they do on the college campuses.

00:48:04.860 Yes.

00:48:05.460 And so I had, uh, some other, a lot of political prisoners who, a lot of the women from the, 1.00

00:48:10.640 uh, Black Panther, I mean, from the, uh, civil rights movement who were former Black

00:48:15.380 Panthers.

00:48:16.120 I was there with them.

00:48:17.420 Some other people were there too, who were, you know, pretty famous people because it was

00:48:21.560 California.

00:48:22.220 And then you get transferred to a Texas prison.

00:48:25.360 And as I understand it, that among others, there was Wanda Barzee.

00:48:29.000 She's the one who pleaded guilty to the Elizabeth smart kidnapping.

00:48:32.480 Um, and then, uh, squeaky from right.

00:48:36.180 Follower of Charles Manson.

00:48:37.620 Lynette was her name.

00:48:39.540 Yeah, she was there.

00:48:40.400 She was at max, but the one who pleaded, uh, guilty of the smart lady, it was, there was

00:48:46.660 an episode in the kitchen involving her.

00:48:48.520 That was a little bit funny, uh, because she was considered such a snitch there in the 1.00

00:48:54.880 kitchen.

00:48:55.140 If someone got an extra piece of chicken, she was running back, letting the officers 0.99

00:48:59.520 know.

00:49:00.220 And these women just got up and surrounded her and they went crazy on her and told her 1.00

00:49:04.900 you should have been telling them where, uh, who you, who you were keeping.

00:49:09.100 Uh, I can't remember her name.

00:49:11.080 The one Elizabeth smart.

00:49:12.440 Yeah, exactly.

00:49:13.540 You should have been telling where Elizabeth smart was.

00:49:16.120 Why are you telling about this chicken leg?

00:49:18.880 Well, what was it like?

00:49:19.880 I mean, in prison is you did the bulk of your time in the Texas facility.

00:49:23.060 I mean, what, like, well, how would you describe it overall?

00:49:25.340 Cause I feel like there may have been this sense of bonding, but also it seems like it

00:49:30.040 may have been tortuous in some ways and abusive.

00:49:33.080 Like, how would you describe it?

00:49:34.940 Broad brush.

00:49:36.100 And in just about every female prison, you broad brush, you're going to have officers 1.00

00:49:42.200 who some of them are there who should not be officers.

00:49:45.660 You're going to have good officers and there's going to be bad officers.

00:49:49.120 Um, but for me, Megan, I was not going to, I had this sense of freedom in prison and I've

00:49:57.100 had people even on my Facebook said, Ms. Alice, you were contagious.

00:50:00.580 So you helped me get through my time in prison.

00:50:03.520 I started writing plays there.

00:50:05.760 And, uh, that was a huge thing.

00:50:08.620 Uh, the prison I was in became well known as the place where they have these plays.

00:50:13.880 I didn't know how unique it was to be even doing the things.

00:50:17.180 I just knew that I could do something to make it better.

00:50:20.980 And I had something, I, I, I had something that they needed.

00:50:25.020 And many women who came to me, uh, Megan had very bad, uh, unforgiveness issues. 1.00

00:50:31.960 That's really what set me free to make me feel freer is I had to forgive all the people

00:50:38.280 who had wronged me, the people who had lied on me, that taken me away from my children,

00:50:43.520 the, the one who got me involved, the judge, prostitute, everybody.

00:50:48.240 And it wasn't just a, um, I'm going to forgive you.

00:50:51.860 It wasn't just lip service.

00:50:53.260 I had to literally clear my own heart and take that weight off of me because unforgiveness

00:50:59.300 would poison you.

00:51:00.900 And I've said that it's, it's, it's like a rottenness of the soul.

00:51:04.680 And I started writing their names down and in my prayers, I consciously, I'm definitely

00:51:10.340 no saint, but I consciously would say their names out that I forgive them.

00:51:15.360 It didn't feel like I had forgiven them, but finally that weight start lifting up off of

00:51:20.260 me.

00:51:20.700 And these people who were going on with their lives, not bothered about me, they were free,

00:51:25.900 but I'm in prison, in prison because I'm weighted down with unforgiveness.

00:51:30.400 So I really, I really, uh, started really encouraging the women, counseling with them.

00:51:37.580 And I saw change taking place with our forgiveness movement.

00:51:41.400 I'm going to call it our forgiveness movement in prison, uh, being free and letting those folks

00:51:46.440 go.

00:51:46.760 Cause you, you're making yourself sick and you can't change it.

00:51:49.900 Keep on.

00:51:50.520 Cause this is your gift to yourself is to forgive.

00:51:53.660 I'm going to start doing that with some of the old bosses at NBC.

00:51:57.180 I'm going to start doing that right away.

00:51:58.680 How do you do it?

00:51:59.760 You say, I forgive you, Andy lack.

00:52:01.180 I forgive you.

00:52:01.680 Like, what do you have?

00:52:02.200 You'd have to say the name out loud.

00:52:04.280 Actually in my prayers, I was right there.

00:52:06.660 I take it right there because we had concrete floors.

00:52:09.560 So I'd have to be on my knees praying.

00:52:11.480 I'd have their names right there beside me.

00:52:14.120 And as I pray for my family, I pray for them first and ask the Lord to bless them.

00:52:19.180 And I forgive them.

00:52:20.480 You said, Lord, that vengeance is mine.

00:52:22.820 So if I take the vengeance, then you leave it alone.

00:52:25.660 So I'm not even asking you for vengeance.

00:52:28.180 I'm asking you for peace because I needed peace in my soul.

00:52:32.140 And I could not have peace carrying that weight around and hating and, and, and rehearsing

00:52:37.340 and rehashing what happened to me because it's not going to change.

00:52:41.000 These people have gone on with their lives.

00:52:43.680 And here I am in prison, in prison.

00:52:45.980 It's amazing that you went from poet to playwright, prison playwright, but continue to try to

00:52:53.700 bring joy into the world.

00:52:55.960 I mean, that's what plays and acting and pretending in that way does and, and had an impact.

00:53:01.100 I mean, clearly you were, you're most popular prisoner.

00:53:03.620 I think, I think you were very much beloved, but there was tragedy.

00:53:08.700 I mean, both of your beautiful parents died while you were in prison.

00:53:11.460 And you missed so many milestones in your family, like, like what were the ones that you remember

00:53:17.440 that you missed?

00:53:18.720 Oh my goodness.

00:53:19.380 It was my first grandchild.

00:53:20.980 That was my first granddaughter.

00:53:22.880 Cause I had my first grandson right before I left, but he was a baby when I went into prison,

00:53:27.960 but it was the birth of grandchildren.

00:53:31.060 That was the biggest thing.

00:53:32.680 And then they just grew up in prison with no in prison grandmama.

00:53:37.480 Our communication was only through, you know, letters.

00:53:40.640 So I always, I can't make stuff good, but I always make them stuff.

00:53:45.040 And I, when I came home, my grandson has so much stuff that I had sent him over the years.

00:53:50.680 It just warmed my heart and pictures.

00:53:53.700 They would send me pictures from home.

00:53:55.380 I put them up on my bulletin board in my room.

00:53:58.500 And that was really hard for me is to see all these pictures and I'm not in them.

00:54:03.900 That's why I take so many pictures now, Megan, because I was left out of so many pictures.

00:54:09.040 I'm always saying, get your phone out.

00:54:10.500 Let's take a picture.

00:54:12.540 Up next, she never stopped fighting for her freedom and it would wind up coming from the

00:54:18.120 most unlikely sources.

00:54:19.860 That's next.

00:54:20.760 It is time for another edition of our feature from the archives, where we direct you back

00:54:25.240 into our growing library.

00:54:26.380 Now it is growing a podcast to something you may have missed or something we feel you must

00:54:30.640 check out again.

00:54:31.780 Perhaps today, we're going back to episode 49 from January of this year with the incredible

00:54:36.980 Kathy Lee Gifford.

00:54:39.100 Remember this one?

00:54:40.100 It was hilarious and it was inspiring.

00:54:43.000 Like this part.

00:54:43.760 There's no spirit of love in the news whatsoever, which has been a frustration of mine in it

00:54:47.760 and why I know you never consider yourself as having been in the news business.

00:54:51.760 You're an entertainer.

00:54:52.860 You're time with Reej and so on.

00:54:54.720 And then I see why.

00:54:55.760 You're too kind a person.

00:54:57.300 You're too positive and well.

00:55:01.760 I don't know.

00:55:02.140 I think there's something about the news business that attracts us dark forces.

00:55:06.360 You're too damn well, Kathy Lee.

00:55:08.600 No, you know what I've learned?

00:55:09.880 I learned a long, long time ago and I learned it from Billy, the friend that I, Billy Graham,

00:55:13.700 that you and I have spoken with on the air.

00:55:15.540 And gee, that went more than viral.

00:55:17.260 That went all over the world.

00:55:19.860 Billy, Billy was very wise when he told me basically, Kathy, just keep telling people

00:55:25.280 that God loves them.

00:55:27.020 Let that be your message all the time.

00:55:28.960 The few times that I did get caught up in something political, I regret it.

00:55:33.860 I should have stayed on the message of Jesus' love, God's love for his world, for his creation,

00:55:40.460 because that doesn't divide us.

00:55:43.040 That unites us.

00:55:44.600 Anything else has got the power to divide.

00:55:48.560 But God's love heals.

00:55:50.820 God's love restores.

00:55:53.060 God's love redeems.

00:55:54.640 All the things we need in our world today come from one source alone.

00:56:00.080 It's not going to be passed.

00:56:01.520 You can't pass love in legislation.

00:56:03.880 It's not going to happen on Capitol Hill.

00:56:05.560 As you mentioned, you're not into organized religion at all.

00:56:08.780 But I'll tell you a story.

00:56:10.020 My friend, Melissa Francis, who works at Fox News, did.

00:56:13.480 Oh, I love Melissa.

00:56:14.740 She's a sweetheart.

00:56:15.280 She's awesome. 0.83

00:56:16.140 She used to star on Little House on the Prairie, which is a whole other story and an awesome

00:56:19.300 one.

00:56:19.500 But she she she told the story.

00:56:23.020 She actually told it publicly, but she told me privately first that she was at her church

00:56:26.920 in New York City two years ago, I want to say.

00:56:31.380 And there she was in the news business Monday through Friday, but on Sunday in in church.

00:56:36.500 And the priest started railing on Fox News.

00:56:40.160 She said she's like, what is going on?

00:56:45.060 I don't want this in here.

00:56:46.980 I'm trying to avoid politics in this moment and go to my better angels, you know, trying

00:56:51.920 to go back to the well and get to get a fresh cup of mercy that you need.

00:56:56.820 Yeah, that's neither the time nor the place for for that kind of a message.

00:57:01.940 I really do believe that I I'm not against people going to church by any means.

00:57:07.220 I just church stopped meaning anything to me years ago when I when I didn't hear anybody

00:57:13.640 teaching rabbinically, which means the true source of the scriptures, the Greek in the

00:57:19.180 New Testament, the Hebrews in the old.

00:57:22.060 That's the only way I want scripture taught to me.

00:57:25.000 So I go to the rabbis and I go to Messianic rabbis to teach me.

00:57:30.100 I go to Israel and I study where these things actually happened.

00:57:33.400 And I study in a in a geopolitical and a contextual way what was going on then.

00:57:40.720 What what were the Sadducees and the Pharisees?

00:57:43.000 What did Jesus mean by this?

00:57:44.620 Why would Jesus curse a fig tree?

00:57:47.320 And when you start to learn rabbinically what all of that actually means, scriptures come

00:57:53.420 to life and you get the power you need in in your daily life.

00:57:58.940 I know exactly what Melissa means.

00:58:00.460 I went to ABC and NBC every day for years and years and years and gave of myself as

00:58:06.820 much as I could, tried to be the best performer I could be, the best friend to anybody that

00:58:11.360 was that I worked with.

00:58:12.900 That was my mission field.

00:58:15.060 I wasn't a missionary to Africa.

00:58:17.560 I was a missionary at NBC and at ABC.

00:58:20.820 And countless lives were changed as a result of it.

00:58:23.780 And people used to say to me, how can you call yourself a Christian and be, you know,

00:58:26.800 I go, because that's where God called me to go love people.

00:58:30.840 There is no one like KLG.

00:58:32.720 And in this episode about God and faith, hearing her story about the importance of her faith

00:58:37.680 worked perfectly.

00:58:39.300 She's a solid person.

00:58:40.500 This is a quality person.

00:58:41.800 Honestly, she's lived her whole life as a quality person.

00:58:44.420 And I think you'll if you don't already love KLG, you will if you go back and check this

00:58:49.080 one out in our library and we will bring you more clips from the archives in the future.

00:58:53.600 And now back to Alice Johnson.

00:59:00.680 At what point along this journey did you ever think, you know, I knew that my sentence was

00:59:05.860 unjust, but there's more attention being paid to these kinds of unjust sentences.

00:59:12.340 And maybe I have a shot of getting out of here early.

00:59:17.100 Right.

00:59:18.180 I never stopped fighting for my freedom, but I didn't let freedom become an idol in my

00:59:22.860 life.

00:59:23.300 It wasn't my God.

00:59:24.600 I'd never stopped fighting, but I'd lived a balanced life.

00:59:28.320 I was always putting petitions in.

00:59:30.200 I went to the law library and I filed petition for women and they got relief and I didn't. 0.99

00:59:36.940 Every time I see a law change that was, but it wouldn't be retroactive.

00:59:41.540 And so I'm still stuck.

00:59:43.740 And so I really and truly never, ever stopped fighting for my freedom.

00:59:48.900 I just had this belief that one day I was going to be free, that this just could not hold

00:59:54.820 up.

00:59:55.240 God is a just God.

00:59:57.160 And I just felt that something was going to happen.

01:00:00.480 I started having dreams.

01:00:02.220 I've always been a dreamer.

01:00:03.840 It's like I'd have these dreams and I could see it.

01:00:06.760 I could feel it.

01:00:07.740 It would be so real.

01:00:09.120 Plus, my family always was encouraging.

01:00:12.800 You know, that was really, really very important to have strong family support.

01:00:18.160 But I always kept my family uplifted to thinking that something is going to happen.

01:00:23.180 And before I knew it, a year, another year, the years just started passing and I just kept

01:00:28.520 myself busy.

01:00:29.560 And this was one thing that I found was by serving others.

01:00:35.120 I couldn't think about myself so much.

01:00:37.520 When I would help, I became a hospice volunteer.

01:00:40.360 That was a really big, I stopped being one when my father died though.

01:00:44.440 But I became a hospice volunteer at the prison in Texas because that was the only prison they

01:00:50.140 had for the terminally ill.

01:00:52.920 And so literally women were sent there to die. 1.00

01:00:54.840 There weren't as many compassionate releases as there are now.

01:00:59.020 You can get a compassionate release easier.

01:01:01.560 But at the time, they had hospice training classes and I signed up knowing I knew nothing

01:01:07.160 about nursing or anything.

01:01:08.780 But I did it because also I had elderly parents who were still alive.

01:01:13.740 And I kept thinking when I go home, if they are sick, I want to be able to take care of

01:01:17.680 them.

01:01:17.960 But also, I was working in commissary at one point and I went up to the floor to deliver

01:01:24.340 commissary and the women were so sad.

01:01:28.640 And so I wanted to see what I could do for them.

01:01:32.560 And so I took the training and many of them, I was the very last voice and face that they

01:01:38.220 would see in this life.

01:01:39.480 So it became totally life changing for me to sit with these women and to bring them comfort

01:01:47.860 and to be their prison family, to sing to them because I love to sing.

01:01:52.160 I'm not the best singer, but I sing to them, I read to them, I just talk and just be their

01:01:59.460 presence, sometimes saying nothing.

01:02:01.640 But I knew it meant a lot to them.

01:02:03.460 So that was that was one of my one of the I'm going to say things that helped me, too.

01:02:12.300 One of the things that needed to change was a reevaluation of these harsh sentencing laws

01:02:16.620 and guidelines that were on the books when you were sentenced.

01:02:18.940 I mean, there was a there was a reason you were sentenced to life in prison that judged

01:02:23.880 nasty as she was. 0.99

01:02:25.260 She actually didn't she didn't really have much discretion because the laws at that time 0.89

01:02:30.420 in 1996, when you were you were found guilty, we had cracked down on crime.

01:02:36.700 There was there had been a crime wave and the country was, you know, between 1970 and

01:02:41.200 the early 90s dealing with record crime numbers.

01:02:44.560 And there was a push to be less forgiving when it came to certain crimes.

01:02:50.800 And at the federal level, there's no parole.

01:02:52.480 So if you get a life sentence, you're in.

01:02:54.460 That's it.

01:02:54.880 And so it's like you almost had just bad luck getting sent to committing this crime and getting

01:03:01.880 found guilty at that particular moment in time.

01:03:05.540 Right.

01:03:05.800 There was a crime bill that had already passed.

01:03:08.240 The war on drugs was in full.

01:03:10.840 It was it was it was full.

01:03:13.540 It was full.

01:03:14.580 It was full blown at that point.

01:03:16.660 And to do anything as a politician, everyone was against changing laws because you would

01:03:22.980 be viewed as being soft on crime.

01:03:25.960 So no one was trying to change anything.

01:03:29.500 It was a lot of lip service, but it was actually no change that was taking place.

01:03:34.740 And they've said now, you know, that the war on drugs was really a war on poor people.

01:03:38.900 I mean, that's that's really who got swept up and disproportionately people of color who got 0.79

01:03:43.100 swept up in it and faced with massive sentences that where the punishment did not fit the crime.

01:03:48.120 I mean, you're a person who never was in trouble with the law before.

01:03:50.420 How does a person who's never in trouble with the law before who, yes, serves as a telephone

01:03:54.660 mule admitted wind up in prison forever, forever?

01:03:59.080 There are murderers who got lighter sentences than you did.

01:04:02.580 I saw people, sex offenders who had committed heinous crimes.

01:04:07.100 I'm not talking about I mean, terribly heinous crimes.

01:04:10.500 I saw these people walk out the door and some of them walk right back in as they reoffended.

01:04:16.600 But because there is no parole in the federal system and that I don't understand because

01:04:21.580 there is parole in every state, but there is no parole.

01:04:26.200 So you can't go before a parole board and say that I've made these changes.

01:04:32.200 This is about redemption.

01:04:34.080 There is no redemption in the federal prison because there is no parole.

01:04:37.740 And so to see all of that taking place and I spent my entire time with a perfect record.

01:04:44.260 I came out with no infractions and I had wardens sitting, wardens writing letters of commendation,

01:04:51.460 staff who's writing to the White House for my freedom.

01:04:55.640 I've got the women started writing for my freedom because they considered me when the 1.00

01:05:02.120 when the whole guidelines came out for this clemency project under Obama.

01:05:06.320 Yeah, there was one person at that prison who thought that I wouldn't get it.

01:05:10.880 That's so crazy.

01:05:12.040 So Obama takes office.

01:05:13.880 He initiates something called the clemency project.

01:05:16.880 And they try looking at prisoners who are serving a federal sentence in prison who likely

01:05:25.680 would have received a substantially lower sentence if convicted of the same offense today.

01:05:30.640 Check.

01:05:30.960 That's you.

01:05:32.000 They're nonviolent, low level offenders with without significant ties to large scale criminal

01:05:36.900 organizations, gangs or cartels.

01:05:39.080 Maybe that's what they thought.

01:05:40.080 Maybe they thought you had some cartel, you know, back to the El Chapo.

01:05:43.560 They've served at least 10 years.

01:05:45.400 They don't have significant criminal history, demonstrated good conduct in prison, no history

01:05:49.960 of violence, and 16,000, almost 17,000 people filed petitions under the new clemency initiative.

01:05:57.320 Obama granted clemency to just under 2,000 individuals while he was in office.

01:06:02.720 And did you believe that you would be one of them?

01:06:06.220 Yes, absolutely.

01:06:08.280 By this time, the ACLU has me in their ad campaign.

01:06:12.240 It started in 2013 with them, six people.

01:06:15.760 And once again, the grace, grace, the favor of God is on my life.

01:06:20.720 They select me to be one of the six people in their ad campaign from all over the federal

01:06:26.680 system.

01:06:27.980 And so I'm in this ad campaign.

01:06:29.840 I'm in newspapers, magazines.

01:06:32.140 I'm getting many reporters are writing about me and the work that I've done, my case, everything.

01:06:39.700 So I know that someone sees me because I've become a national figure at this point.

01:06:46.520 And unfortunately, the process itself was very flawed.

01:06:53.680 And the whole clemency process, really, Megan, is extremely flawed.

01:06:58.520 The clemency process is sitting in the Department of Justice.

01:07:02.640 And so one of the things that they do when a person gets close is a really viable candidate

01:07:08.480 for clemency is they contact the prosecutor who prosecuted your case and ask them what

01:07:14.200 they think.

01:07:15.620 So what do you think mine thought?

01:07:18.120 Yeah, it was not in favor of any clemency.

01:07:21.060 He, well, he, you know, people get mad, not because they feel like that you should be

01:07:26.160 there.

01:07:26.680 But the only thing he knew me from was 20 plus years ago, 20 years ago.

01:07:31.660 So it's like...

01:07:32.840 He probably barely remembers the case.

01:07:34.540 I'm sure he did.

01:07:35.580 That was his biggest case.

01:07:36.840 Uh, he was very angry with me for going to trial, but my warden has written all these

01:07:42.480 things about me, why I should be set free.

01:07:44.640 My captain, case manager, as I say, yet that bet has no weight to it.

01:07:51.180 The prosecutor even met with my family, uh, when I was denied and he told them point blank

01:07:57.620 that every time he saw mine, he just put denied.

01:08:00.020 And see, that's not what clemency is about.

01:08:01.880 It's not about, it's about mercy.

01:08:05.100 It's about grace.

01:08:06.360 It's about a changed life.

01:08:08.020 But if you're sending these cases straight back to the prosecutor, you got the same information

01:08:13.260 that they have.

01:08:14.480 What the charges was, what I did, there was absolutely no violence whatsoever.

01:08:19.400 No violence before prison, no violence in prison.

01:08:22.520 A stellar record, recommendations to come out, but it's, it's hinging on a prosecutor saying

01:08:29.960 no.

01:08:31.440 Meanwhile, you had members of Congress writing on your behalf.

01:08:34.300 You've got the, the few, the, the final days of Obama's term.

01:08:38.700 It's December 20th, 2016.

01:08:42.740 Trump would be inaugurated the next month.

01:08:44.520 Obama granted clemency to 231 people.

01:08:49.000 You were hopeful you'd be one of them, but in the end, how did you find out the bad news?

01:08:55.360 In the end, it was on January the 7th and a clemency denial list.

01:09:01.100 They were putting these out, the ones who were rejected.

01:09:03.720 I didn't even know I had been rejected.

01:09:05.520 My daughter saw it.

01:09:07.280 She was scanning every time those things come out because somehow my rejection, my, my denial

01:09:13.020 letter didn't make it to me still to this day.

01:09:15.660 I have not seen it, but I was on the list of denials.

01:09:19.220 That's how I found out that I had been denied.

01:09:21.780 So my family started.

01:09:22.960 Explain why do they tell you why?

01:09:25.100 It's shrouded in secrecy.

01:09:27.160 You never, ever know why they don't give you any explanation, except they tell you cannot

01:09:31.980 appeal it.

01:09:32.840 And that's something that is so wrong.

01:09:35.180 What, what is it that I could do better to be a better candidate for clemency?

01:09:39.340 You don't even know what they looked at, why you were denied.

01:09:42.200 I just received this denial letter.

01:09:45.500 I mean, they saw not denied that people just received a denial letter.

01:09:48.540 Mine was lost somewhere, but I was on the list of denials.

01:09:52.040 That's how I found out.

01:09:54.120 I mean, at that point, you know, when you say back to your, how do you tell a woman not

01:10:00.020 to hope at that point, was your hope diminished?

01:10:04.400 Well, honestly and truly, yes.

01:10:06.860 But then my family kicked in and they said they didn't know why, but they just felt like

01:10:13.520 it was to do with the prosecutor because the part of the office of the partner attorney

01:10:18.380 had contacted my daughter.

01:10:21.160 My daughter was checking in and it seemed favorable that I was going to get it.

01:10:25.280 And then all of a sudden everything dropped.

01:10:26.860 So they kind of figured it might be the prosecutor.

01:10:30.060 So they went to meet with him.

01:10:32.240 And that's when they were to ask him if he would to show him that I'm not the same person

01:10:37.180 to show him what I've been doing.

01:10:38.820 And he even told my family, I didn't know Alice was doing these things.

01:10:42.020 Oh, I didn't know that.

01:10:42.980 So how could you say denied if you don't really know this?

01:10:48.100 And so they, they, they got us quick.

01:10:50.200 They went and did a sit in at his boss's office and refused to leave to get him to change his

01:10:55.800 mind, to not say denied, which he did.

01:10:59.260 His boss did.

01:11:00.200 He said, he said, this is new, new information.

01:11:03.460 He said, this was not presented to me.

01:11:05.780 And so that was big.

01:11:07.020 It was real big.

01:11:08.400 And so he wrote a letter and said that, uh, uh, because of new evidence about Alice

01:11:15.740 Johnson, um, um, uh, you know, recommending her for clemency, um, under the Obama administration.

01:11:23.140 And so we hoped up until the last minute that, uh, when we finally got that letter, my family,

01:11:29.700 we just knew that everything was going to be reversed.

01:11:32.640 But, um, when I saw, uh, President Obama on that plane, waving goodbye, I just sat there

01:11:39.760 at that table with tears running down my face.

01:11:41.820 Cause I knew that it was over.

01:11:44.480 I was waiting for a last minute call.

01:11:46.940 Anything to say it had been reversed because we thought it was reversed at that moment.

01:11:51.540 Oh my goodness.

01:11:53.740 And then, you know, I have to ask you, cause of course his successor is Donald, Donald Trump, 0.98

01:11:59.080 who the media at every turn portrayed as a racist white supremacist.

01:12:06.760 And I don't know how in touch you were with the news cycle, but were you looking at him

01:12:10.800 thinking, well, that's not going to happen.

01:12:14.140 Well, it was looking pretty grim, but I'm going to tell you what I did, Megan.

01:12:17.800 And this is the truth.

01:12:19.560 I got the scripture out of Proverbs 21 and five.

01:12:23.380 That said, the heart of the King is in the hands of the Lord and like streams in the river,

01:12:28.160 he can turn in any way he wants to.

01:12:30.820 And I started just holding on to that scripture and praying for president Trump and just, and

01:12:37.740 just asking the Lord to turn his heart toward me, Lord, please turn toward me.

01:12:42.140 Um, but I still had hope because the, um, the person, the, uh, U S attorney who had did

01:12:47.920 the reversal letter, not my regular prosecutor, there was still a slight chance that maybe

01:12:54.180 I could still get a reduction by appealing to him, but, uh, then he resigned.

01:12:59.000 Then I'm asked to do a video op ed.

01:13:02.600 This is big.

01:13:03.700 This is big there.

01:13:04.840 So there's this, this online publication called Mike and my C that wants you to record a video

01:13:10.340 interview.

01:13:10.900 It was four minutes long, but a woman named Kim Kardashian saw it. 0.97

01:13:18.880 And then what happened?

01:13:20.720 Kim saw it.

01:13:22.040 Someone who she don't even know who fought, who she follows.

01:13:25.560 They, um, they sent it to her.

01:13:28.720 I mean, they retweeted and it came up, I guess on her feed.

01:13:31.340 And she said she had not been on her own Twitter for days.

01:13:34.960 And she says, she turned, she went into Twitter.

01:13:37.880 And the first thing pops up is my face.

01:13:39.860 And I'm at the beginning of telling my story.

01:13:42.840 And she tweeted out, this is so unfair.

01:13:46.060 And little did I know that she had tweeted it out.

01:13:49.580 She contacted Sean Holly, her personal lawyer, her family's personal lawyer, and told her to

01:13:55.500 find Alice Johnson and see if she would like for me, I want to help her.

01:14:00.040 And she said, find her.

01:14:02.600 And so Sean Holly found me and, uh, she, uh, she didn't tell me who it was.

01:14:07.800 She had said, a very rich and famous woman would like to hire me to represent you. 1.00

01:14:12.200 Would you like that?

01:14:13.540 I'm like, let me think about it.

01:14:14.680 Yes.

01:14:17.740 Did you have any idea who Kim Kardashian was?

01:14:20.760 Even though it was Kim, I thought it was Kris Jenner.

01:14:23.740 I had my daughter, uh, Google Sean Holly and find out who her clients were.

01:14:28.520 Cause she said it was one of her clients.

01:14:30.460 And I will say, I know it.

01:14:32.340 It is Kris Jenner.

01:14:33.800 Kris Jenner is about to help me.

01:14:35.320 I was so happy.

01:14:36.580 And my daughter says to me, what if it's Kim Kardashian?

01:14:39.800 And I said, Kim, who?

01:14:41.740 She said, Kim Kardashian, mama.

01:14:43.400 You don't know who Kim Kardashian is.

01:14:45.040 I said, no, who is that?

01:14:46.620 She said that.

01:14:47.040 She explained who Kim Kardashian was.

01:14:50.020 And sure enough, two days later, I found out it was Kim.

01:14:53.020 Can you tell me before this, right?

01:14:55.600 Before this, you had a dream about how you might get out of prison.

01:15:01.500 And what was it?

01:15:02.720 Honestly and truly, Megan, I had a dream about this beautiful woman who was going to tell me

01:15:09.240 that I could go home, who was going to help me gain my freedom.

01:15:11.520 And I saw all of these news stations.

01:15:14.320 I saw so much media.

01:15:16.300 It played out with the media out there, just like I dreamed.

01:15:20.360 But see, I didn't know who Kim Kardashian was.

01:15:23.300 Right.

01:15:23.800 So she wasn't in the dream.

01:15:25.620 That was her.

01:15:26.380 I knew it was her.

01:15:27.440 That was her.

01:15:28.020 Yeah, it was her.

01:15:28.540 But you just didn't know it was her.

01:15:30.220 I didn't know that it was her.

01:15:31.320 But I'm going to tell you, this is so true.

01:15:34.160 One of the women who was in prison with me, who I told my dream,

01:15:37.680 Josette Sanchez, when I had it.

01:15:39.980 And that had been probably 15, 16, something like that, years sooner.

01:15:44.920 And she said she never forgot the dream.

01:15:47.440 She sent me a message on Messenger recounting my whole dream to me.

01:15:54.120 So Kim Kardashian calls Ivanka Trump and tells Ivanka about your story.

01:16:01.860 And Ivanka says we need to loop in Jared Kushner, Ivanka's husband and somebody who'd been working

01:16:07.280 on criminal justice reform with Van Jones, among others.

01:16:11.440 And that's how they get it in front of President Trump.

01:16:15.780 Kim writes in the in the foreword to your book about how she worked on it for six months,

01:16:19.900 she and her team to get just the right presentation to President Trump.

01:16:23.580 And now keep in mind, members of the audience, keep in mind, Obama, he granted 1927 clemency

01:16:32.700 petitions while in office, the highest total of any president going back to Harry Truman.

01:16:36.280 Trump granted 237.

01:16:39.380 Only two other presidents since 1900 granted fewer than Trump did.

01:16:43.820 That was George W. Bush and his dad, George H.W. Bush.

01:16:46.000 So Trump was not too liberal with the with the clemency grants.

01:16:49.980 So the odds are not great, but you have this really interesting team working it from the

01:16:55.900 inside.

01:16:57.300 And Kim Kardashian gets in front of Trump.

01:16:59.860 And yeah, go ahead.

01:17:00.720 You take it from there.

01:17:01.560 Actually, Kim, at that point, she had brought in different attorneys.

01:17:05.640 At that point, she brought in Brittany Barnett, Jennifer Turner, who was the one from the ACLU, 0.86

01:17:11.180 Mike Scho, and also her own personal attorney.

01:17:16.000 Um, so it was four of them originally on Kim's attorney team.

01:17:21.080 That was actually my attorney team.

01:17:23.180 Kim assembled this team from all over the country, from Dallas, New York, to Memphis,

01:17:28.820 to California.

01:17:30.320 So I had a different team working with her actually on the on my clemency, on my clemency

01:17:37.240 petition.

01:17:38.080 And that was this.

01:17:40.080 This team was just going crazy.

01:17:41.840 I knew all I didn't know I knew all of them except one.

01:17:46.080 And so, uh, in Van Jones team, they had been advocating for my freedom.

01:17:50.520 However, they had not had the success cut 50.

01:17:53.940 They'd been out there advocating for my freedom.

01:17:55.980 But when, uh, Kim put, put this team together, it was like a, it was a, a team of people that

01:18:02.780 knew me and were not.

01:18:04.920 And they, Brittany already knew my case because Brittany's client, Sharonda Jones, was my best 0.93

01:18:10.260 friend in prison.

01:18:11.180 And Sharonda Jones got clemency from Obama. 1.00

01:18:13.980 And so she became my advocate on the outside.

01:18:17.040 Sharonda was out here advocating for me.

01:18:19.160 I had so many people advocating.

01:18:21.500 They, my daughter put a petition out there, 270,000 people signed it.

01:18:26.440 Wow.

01:18:27.660 For my freedom.

01:18:28.320 So what, so what, how did you find out Trump said yes?

01:18:33.180 Yes.

01:18:34.920 I actually, it was a Wednesday and this is crazy because it's all in the news that he's

01:18:41.680 considering it.

01:18:42.420 But by this time I've had so many false alarms that I'm really scared for real that this might

01:18:48.780 be another false alarm.

01:18:49.940 Cause I've had, I've had so many disappointments where I thought I was going to be set free.

01:18:53.920 And on Wednesdays, Megan is hamburger day and it's all on the news that there's a possibility,

01:19:00.660 but I went to my room and shut the door.

01:19:03.140 People were saying stuff.

01:19:04.260 I went to my room and I just would not listen no more because my heart is studying.

01:19:08.820 I said, I'm not going to miss hamburger day.

01:19:11.260 So I went to, I went to the dining room and it's when I took my first bite, I heard my

01:19:17.400 name being called and for a legal call, not knowing that Kim was on the line with the 1.00

01:19:23.100 attorneys.

01:19:23.520 Oh my gosh.

01:19:24.220 I have chills right now.

01:19:25.700 So I picked, I picked the phone up.

01:19:27.700 They tell me it's a legal call.

01:19:28.920 All of my attorneys are on that call.

01:19:31.520 But Kim tells me, we did it.

01:19:34.140 You're out of there.

01:19:34.860 I said, did.

01:19:35.420 I'm like, well, at first I tell her, she, I tell her, I said, it's my, cause I would call

01:19:39.500 her my war angel, not just the angel, but my war angel.

01:19:43.600 Cause she was fighting like crazy for me. 0.99

01:19:46.880 So many things that's too much to even go into all of the things, the ups and downs where

01:19:52.640 we thought it was going to happen.

01:19:53.800 That's why I went on to get my hamburger.

01:19:56.600 But anyway, Kim was the one who told me that I was free, that I was out of there, that I

01:20:04.600 could go home.

01:20:05.640 And Megan, when she told me I could go home, I don't even think, I don't remember jumping

01:20:10.460 so high.

01:20:10.980 It's like the ceiling was really high.

01:20:13.080 I started screaming.

01:20:14.660 I was jumping so high in that room.

01:20:16.800 And then I could hear the women on both sides beating on the doors and screaming and crying. 0.97

01:20:20.960 And it was just a moment that I can never forget.

01:20:25.200 It's like, it's real.

01:20:26.420 I'm going home to my family.

01:20:28.760 That is unbelievable.

01:20:30.340 That's like, it's so encouraging.

01:20:33.020 Kim thought I knew.

01:20:34.260 She did not know she was at a shoot.

01:20:36.640 She thought that they had already told me that I knew she didn't know she was the one

01:20:40.460 who was telling me.

01:20:41.180 Oh, wow.

01:20:41.760 That's the home.

01:20:43.800 Honestly, it's like the Kardashians, they, they're so successful and they, they've made so

01:20:48.000 much money and they're controversial too, because of the selfies and the naked and all

01:20:52.820 this stuff.

01:20:53.400 And, but if Kim Kardashian does not another thing in her life, she will go to her grave

01:20:59.760 knowing she made a serious and profound difference in the life of someone who mattered, who really

01:21:07.440 mattered.

01:21:08.080 Thank you, Megan.

01:21:09.320 And Kim and I still communicate, uh, you know, I say Kim changed my life, but she'll tell

01:21:15.580 you quickly, I changed her life too and gave her a different focus and different meaning.

01:21:20.400 And because of that, so many other people have come home.

01:21:23.920 So I know Megan that, and I've said this, that I was not delayed or denied, but I was

01:21:30.400 divinely set aside for such a time as this.

01:21:34.680 Everything that happened had to be so, so terrible, even with all of the years that I was in prison.

01:21:41.000 It had to be something so awful that it would catch the attention of people.

01:21:46.320 It was seeing a face.

01:21:48.120 It was seeing, seeing me and seeing my family, not just reading a story, but it was the effect

01:21:55.820 of my image and my voice being out there and people hearing my story.

01:22:01.700 That's what changed the culture.

01:22:04.820 That's what changed it.

01:22:06.380 It was the catalyst for a huge movement that was going to take place.

01:22:10.580 Many have said that my case, my release from prison became the catalyst for the successful

01:22:15.840 passage, the bipartisan passage of the first step act that president Trump signed into law.

01:22:21.920 And I never take anything for granted, Megan, because no, no matter what, my clemency was

01:22:31.500 granted.

01:22:32.360 It was granted.

01:22:33.480 And the granite of my clemency caused a domino effect in culture of people seeing that this

01:22:42.760 is wrong, that we have such a terribly broken system.

01:22:46.040 It took away the stigma of the Willie Horton case.

01:22:50.420 And now people are now talking seriously about criminal justice reform.

01:22:55.640 And the politicians are not afraid because there was so much support, not only in this country,

01:23:01.180 but around the world.

01:23:03.980 The first step act, which is something that Van Jones also worked on with Jared and the

01:23:09.360 White House. 0.83

01:23:10.100 So, you know, obviously he's no, he's no conservative, but, and he got a lot of crap for this from,

01:23:14.620 from people on the left, but he, he worked tirelessly among many others to make this a reality.

01:23:20.400 So many others.

01:23:21.220 Van Jones got so much flack from working with the president.

01:23:24.680 You know, people, that was awful to me because if you really genuinely care about people,

01:23:30.660 I care about people.

01:23:32.180 I don't care about who I'm working with.

01:23:34.980 I'm willing to work with anyone to do good.

01:23:37.720 Anyone that's for the people.

01:23:39.320 That's what I consider myself, not as a lobbyist, but as a champion for the people.

01:23:44.580 And Van Jones, you have to have some courage to go in there knowing that they're going to

01:23:49.540 throw rotten tomatoes at you and, uh, for doing, for doing things for the people.

01:23:55.280 And, you know, he had the courage, a lot of others too.

01:23:58.180 A lot of other people were willing to cross the political divide and do what is right.

01:24:04.180 And how, how silly that is, Megan, the person that can get this done,

01:24:09.160 but you're not willing to work with them.

01:24:11.440 Well, then you're not really being true to your call.

01:24:13.520 And Van Jones, I mean, I am aware that Van Jones had threats on his life for doing this

01:24:21.260 for, and, and let's keep in mind that the first step act that he was trying to, you know,

01:24:24.960 push with Jared and others, it passed the Senate 87 to 12.

01:24:29.560 It passed the house 358 to 36.

01:24:31.860 I mean, this was an overwhelmingly bipartisan bill.

01:24:35.700 And, uh, I mean, it had people supporting it from Kamala Harris to Ted Cruz, you know, the,

01:24:40.120 the, the ACLU, the fraternal order of police.

01:24:42.960 It's like, this is, this is quite a piece of legislation.

01:24:45.240 And now this act for which Trump gets no credit, uh, reduces mandatory minimum sentences for a

01:24:52.220 number of drug related crimes.

01:24:54.240 It allows judges to circumvent federal mandatory minimum sentences for nonviolent offenders.

01:25:00.280 When they see fit, it expands rehabilitative opportunities for federal prisoners.

01:25:05.560 It, it ends the so-called three strikes, mandatory life sentences for defendants facing a third

01:25:10.960 drug conviction, except in, in when they've been a violent felon and so on.

01:25:14.720 It does, it's, it's humane.

01:25:17.920 It, it writes humanity and humane treatment of humans into the law.

01:25:23.160 Because these are humans.

01:25:24.880 And I, and I want to tell you, I don't know if you know this, Megan, but at first, the

01:25:28.840 very first step act that was being presented to the president did not have sentencing reform

01:25:33.940 in it, but it was after seeing my case.

01:25:36.320 And if you go back and you look at the news clips, when he did the press conference, he

01:25:40.380 talks about me and asking them to put sentencing reform in.

01:25:44.320 He said, he does not want to see another case like Alice Johnson's because the first time 0.90

01:25:50.420 when Kim and Sean took my case into the Oval Office, and I've said that Oval Office became

01:25:56.620 the courtroom, even though she was a famous person bringing it to the president, I had

01:26:01.900 to be a worthy candidate to get, to get this still.

01:26:05.720 It wasn't just, it had to.

01:26:08.220 So when the, when the layers were pulled back, he couldn't believe that I actually got life

01:26:14.060 for what I did, because whatever might be written or what may have appeared in newspapers

01:26:20.320 after my sentencing, he looked at the actual paperwork and to say what I was convicted of

01:26:26.340 and what I did.

01:26:27.220 And a little did I know, and that was on my birthday.

01:26:29.840 I just had a birthday to May 30th, but she went on my birthday and seven days later running 0.99

01:26:35.560 across the row three, but that, that caused a chain reaction.

01:26:41.340 My case did to literally touch the heart of a president because that's, that's, you know,

01:26:48.020 he, he, he was, as he said, one of the people that did it his own way. 0.59

01:26:53.240 Well, you know, Alice, we're told that President Trump doesn't have a heart, that he is a racist, 1.00

01:26:57.080 awful man. 1.00

01:26:58.200 And you say?

01:26:59.080 I say, I have seen none of that, that I was able to approach President Trump about other

01:27:06.340 cases.

01:27:06.860 And he granted many of those cases, many of those people freedom.

01:27:10.880 And it was never just Alice Johnson has these cases.

01:27:14.320 I submitted over a hundred cases to the president.

01:27:17.120 I mean, to the pardon attorney's office, to the white house, personally, myself after

01:27:21.460 vetting them, I worked nonstop on cases.

01:27:24.260 And he brought me into that open office a number of times and asked me to tell him about

01:27:29.120 these cases.

01:27:30.260 Wow.

01:27:31.160 I didn't know that.

01:27:32.240 That's amazing.

01:27:33.560 And these people are set free, are at home today.

01:27:39.080 Pardons, clemencies, things, people that would never have gotten out of prison.

01:27:43.720 I was able to literally speak to the president personally about these cases.

01:27:48.860 So you asked me, what do I think?

01:27:51.080 I thank God for this opportunity to go before the president the way someone went for me.

01:27:58.560 Because at that time, Kim went, it was not popular to go.

01:28:02.980 And she went anyway.

01:28:04.460 And when I went, I don't care about the popularity.

01:28:07.800 I don't care about being counseled.

01:28:09.840 I don't care about anything but the people, about justice.

01:28:13.340 I don't care anything but mercy and helping these people the way that I was helped.

01:28:18.100 It was only deserving people.

01:28:19.800 And any of the people that they looked that I helped were all very deserving people.

01:28:24.780 And I wish I could have helped a thousand more people.

01:28:28.200 But, you know, I just timed in permit, resources in permit.

01:28:31.940 But what I could do while I could do it, I did it.

01:28:35.960 Can we spend one minute, since we've built up this whole story, on the moment you walked

01:28:40.920 out of federal prison?

01:28:42.240 Yes.

01:28:43.640 Well, it was an hour after Kim, I hung the phone up from Kim.

01:28:47.140 An hour and a half later, I heard my name over the loudspeaker saying, Alice Marie Johnson,

01:28:53.240 report to R&D with all of your property.

01:28:55.780 When that came over the loudspeaker, there was a cheer.

01:28:59.200 This prison held 1,600 women. 1.00

01:29:01.660 There was a cheer that went up all over three buildings with them separated, you know, with

01:29:07.440 these women. 1.00

01:29:08.520 A cheer went up like crazy.

01:29:11.360 Everybody was screaming.

01:29:12.500 And as I walked out the door, every window had women in it, beating with cups, beating 1.00

01:29:18.900 with their hands, stomping.

01:29:20.320 I'm not kidding.

01:29:21.000 It felt like the ground was moving.

01:29:22.500 It was like an earthquake.

01:29:23.600 And when I looked up at them, they were all crying and screaming, Miss Alice, we love you.

01:29:30.800 Don't forget about us.

01:29:32.460 And when I made the motion to throw a kiss at them, pull my, pull, not my kiss, but pull

01:29:37.820 my heart out of my chest and throw it to them, the ground was shaking.

01:29:41.840 They were stomping and screaming.

01:29:43.820 And when I left out, I had to pass by to get to my family, the camp, which was a lower security

01:29:49.760 held about 250 women, every woman, every staff member was lined up outside that prison and 1.00

01:29:56.300 they were doing the same thing, screaming, my name, we love you.

01:30:00.340 Don't forget about us.

01:30:02.400 Oh my God.

01:30:02.860 I'm, I'm, I'm feeling emotional today, Alice.

01:30:05.000 You're bringing the tears.

01:30:07.240 That's the scene I carry in my heart.

01:30:10.100 And I, I made a vow in my heart that I would never stop fighting for them.

01:30:15.320 I would never forget about them.

01:30:17.120 And I have not, I literally have used my, my life to, to uplift them, to tell my story

01:30:25.740 and their stories and, and elevate their faces.

01:30:28.740 Even the organization that I founded is for video is for having storytelling to lift these

01:30:35.780 faces up with the people you may never see.

01:30:38.840 Big finish next.

01:30:40.080 Don't go away.

01:30:40.580 You never lost your positivity, your optimism, your belief in the power of God, your hope.

01:30:53.460 And I saw that firsthand when I watched you at the Republican National Convention, you wound

01:30:58.700 up speaking at the RNC in this barn burner.

01:31:02.360 And we have a clip.

01:31:03.760 I want to, I want the audience to hear it.

01:31:05.780 Listen here.

01:31:06.240 I was once told that the only way I would ever be reunited with my family would be as

01:31:12.820 a corpse.

01:31:14.080 But by the grace of God and the compassion of President Donald John Trump, I stand before

01:31:20.880 you tonight and I assure you, I'm not a ghost.

01:31:25.380 I am alive.

01:31:27.000 I am well.

01:31:28.080 And most importantly, I am free.

01:31:32.180 When President Trump heard about me, about the injustice of my story, he saw me as a person.

01:31:40.980 He had compassion.

01:31:43.540 And he acted.

01:31:46.060 Free in body, thanks to President Trump.

01:31:49.800 But free in mind, thanks to the almighty God.

01:31:54.040 I was not delayed or denied.

01:31:57.520 I was destined for such a time as this.

01:32:01.580 That's what our president, Donald Trump, did for me.

01:32:06.620 And for that, I will be forever grateful.

01:32:11.520 God bless you.

01:32:13.360 God bless President Trump.

01:32:15.680 And God bless America.

01:32:19.440 Wow.

01:32:20.820 Wow.

01:32:21.580 I mean, just the fact that you can say, God bless America, after all you've been through

01:32:25.940 and the injustice of your sentence, you can still hold on to any sort of a patriotic sentiment

01:32:32.000 says a lot about you.

01:32:34.780 Thank you, Megan.

01:32:36.200 I know that we have the greatest.

01:32:38.860 I live in the greatest country in the world.

01:32:41.740 And we as a country have survived many things in our life.

01:32:46.300 We've experienced dark moments in time.

01:32:49.000 I've experienced some of the darkest moments being locked behind bars, told that it's going

01:32:54.420 to always be like this.

01:32:56.320 And really, as a country, we are facing dark moments right now.

01:33:01.940 But we have hope.

01:33:03.340 We have hope that things will change.

01:33:05.520 As my mama said, out of something bad, something always good can come out of it.

01:33:10.980 What was different when you got out after 21 years?

01:33:13.240 What you look around and, you know, it's like coming up from a submarine, you periscope up.

01:33:17.420 And what did you see that was different?

01:33:19.380 This technology, there was absolutely no internet when I went to prison.

01:33:25.180 So everything with these little phones, I was so afraid of my phone when they gave me

01:33:29.940 that phone.

01:33:32.380 Your instincts were dead on, by the way.

01:33:34.960 Yeah, I was afraid of that phone.

01:33:37.420 But now I'm like everyone else, I'm texting too.

01:33:40.160 But one thing I don't like is all of the FaceTiming.

01:33:42.740 And I made my grandchildren, they're not allowed to do all that FaceTime and come see me.

01:33:47.320 Let's visit.

01:33:48.040 Let's talk.

01:33:48.460 That's right.

01:33:49.480 I don't want to have an image.

01:33:51.540 I want to hug.

01:33:53.040 And it's just different.

01:33:55.100 But, you know, honestly and truly, it's different out here, too.

01:33:59.640 There's a whole different political culture out here.

01:34:02.320 It didn't used to be so polarized.

01:34:04.780 Now I see everything along partisan lines.

01:34:07.000 People used to fuss and fight while they were in session and then go out and they could

01:34:11.600 all have dinner together.

01:34:13.820 It wasn't so personal.

01:34:16.020 And that saddened me to see how polarized things are.

01:34:21.200 And it saddened me, too, for people to tell me how I'm supposed to feel.

01:34:25.220 I don't feel like that.

01:34:26.760 And they pick up nuts when I say, I don't feel like that.

01:34:30.820 That's a big thing I learned in prison because I was in there with every different faith group.

01:34:35.200 And I'm going to tell you, every different faith group, every time I got ready to do

01:34:38.740 something, rallied to help me because I did not care what your faith was, what your

01:34:44.180 orientation, I didn't care.

01:34:45.380 People were people.

01:34:46.780 And that's what they saw me as, a nurturer and a person that was fair and who saw them,

01:34:52.000 not just saw them, but I listened to them, to their ideas.

01:34:55.740 So coming out here, those lessons have followed me from prison to out here.

01:35:01.100 I don't change according to what group of people I'm with.

01:35:05.660 I don't change who I am because I'm speaking to Megyn Kelly.

01:35:09.500 This is who I am.

01:35:11.300 Now, are you having burgers still?

01:35:14.180 Like, are you getting the good burger now?

01:35:15.800 Or are you back on like the meals that you could never get in prison that you probably

01:35:20.160 thought about for many years?

01:35:22.640 I've never got a good juicy steak.

01:35:25.180 I've graduated from the hamburger, too.

01:35:27.840 I love the juicy steak.

01:35:29.680 And what, what, when you look around your life now, obviously family, of course, but

01:35:35.840 is there something that you really appreciate now that you didn't before?

01:35:39.560 I appreciate just opening in my door and being able to walk out.

01:35:46.300 I really, really appreciate, I take more baths than probably most, most people because for

01:35:51.900 over two decades, I could only take a shower and I still can't break myself of this.

01:35:57.100 I still open the refrigerator and marvel at just being able to take out of the refrigerator.

01:36:03.640 I wouldn't, I don't think I'll ever get past just being thankful and noticing things that

01:36:09.000 people don't notice.

01:36:09.940 Even during the pandemic, I was, you know, I was locked down and isolated for many, many

01:36:16.600 years from my family.

01:36:18.460 But the thing I appreciated so much, I could pick the phone up and call them.

01:36:22.160 And at that point, I could do some FaceTiming, but I have this liberty.

01:36:26.520 You don't appreciate liberty and freedom until it's taken away from you.

01:36:31.060 And so there's not a day that goes by.

01:36:34.120 Even now, I wake up sometimes in the morning, Megan, and I'll just stare at my ceiling.

01:36:40.000 Because for over two decades, I always stared at a bunk bed over my head.

01:36:44.640 So I just, I don't take nothing, absolutely nothing for granted.

01:36:49.420 I don't think that freedom will ever get old to me.

01:36:54.240 Alice Marie Johnson, thank you so much for telling us your story.

01:36:58.000 I'm honored to meet you and to know you.

01:37:00.340 Thank you, Megan.

01:37:01.200 Thank you so much too, for having me on today.

01:37:03.640 I want you to know, Megan, I've been, I started following things that you were doing and,

01:37:07.780 you know, just keeping my eyes on you.

01:37:09.300 I'm so glad that you're doing what you're doing.

01:37:12.000 I really have been binging.

01:37:16.140 I've been really, really enjoying them.

01:37:18.440 And I feel like watching them, I'm just watching what I used to be used to, just news.

01:37:23.860 I'm honored, honestly, with all the time that's been stolen from you that you would give any

01:37:29.500 of the time you now are enjoying to me is a true honor, Alice.

01:37:33.080 Thank you for being so strong and so uplifting and just bringing this light even into my world

01:37:38.540 today and my listeners' world.

01:37:40.240 I mean, if you can overcome what you have overcome with this kind of an attitude and forgive

01:37:44.540 those who have trespassed against you, so can we all.

01:37:48.820 Amen.

01:37:53.100 Go ahead and subscribe now.

01:37:54.700 Download five stars and give me a written write-up so that I'll get your feedback on Alice.

01:37:59.620 And in the meantime, have a great day.

01:38:01.300 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. 0.94

01:38:04.760 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

01:38:09.460 The Megyn Kelly Show is a Devil May Care media production in collaboration with Red Seat Ventures.

01:38:13.860 The Megyn Kelly Show is a Devil May Care Media production in collaboration with Red Seat Ventures.

The Megyn Kelly Show - June 18, 2021

Alice Marie Johnson on Her Journey Out of Prison, President Trump, Kim Kardashian, and Criminal Justice Reform ｜ Ep. 117

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