All the LIES in Karmelo Anthony Case From “The View,” with VDH, and Former FBI Special Agent Says She's 75% Confident There Will Be Arrest in Guthrie Case ｜ Ep. 1345
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00:00:15.500All right, full-time thoughts. Craig, who stood out?
00:00:17.980Brazil's lime cheesecakes started great, didn't let up.
00:00:20.500Nah, for me, Italian cappuccino was the standout in the box.
00:00:23.580But if we're talking decadent performance, that's all France.
00:00:26.260chocolate creme brulee had the richest finishes. Canadian fireworks really showed up big too.
00:00:30.820And Mexico's caramel churro ice cap gave me chills. We are of course talking about Tim's
00:00:35.920taste of the globe lineup. New globally inspired Timbits and ice cap flavors available at Tim
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00:00:44.240Daily. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM channel 111 every weekday at New East.
00:00:56.260Hey, everyone. I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. We have major developments
00:01:01.260today in the Nancy Guthrie case, as there are new reports about the ransom notes. We'll have
00:01:05.820a full breakdown later in the show. FYI, our pal Howard Bloom broke some major news on this whole
00:01:12.700thing. And now every reporter is running around repeating his news, claiming that they broke it.
00:01:18.160It's very annoying. Howard Bloom broke this news, okay? It's not that hard to credit somebody
00:01:23.700when they break something. And for that matter, if you want to go back a little further,
00:01:27.940someone on X who goes by nerdy addict actually was the first person to break this news. And we
00:01:33.660brought it to you at the time. And remember, we had this whole discussion, like,
00:01:38.180we don't know who this person is. They go by nerdy addict, but we found them very reliable
00:01:42.040in this case. And here is their reporting. Well, guess what? It panned out. And now all these other
00:01:46.880reporters are running around claiming it as their own. And it's not. It's not. Nerdy addict had it
00:01:52.580first, but in the sort of mainstream press, Howard Bloom had a big exclusive and no one's
00:01:58.340crediting him, which is annoying. Okay. Anyway. Also, you will not believe who showed up at
00:02:03.080former President Obama's new presidential library opening. Think as radical as they come.
00:02:11.920We'll get into it. And Kristi Noem's husband is back in the headlines. Apparently the rehab did
00:02:17.520not work. But first, there is more news today in the Carmelo Anthony case. Yesterday, the Stand
00:02:24.980with Carmelo coalition announced that Carmelo had a new team of six lawyers who will be handling the
00:02:31.700appeal of his murder conviction free of charge. You remember he said he was indigent, penniless,
00:02:37.640and he needed court-appointed lawyers? Well, he got free help that's not court-appointed. It's
00:02:43.620like a dream team of lawyers who want to help people who aggrieved racially from the sound of
00:02:51.640it. They include people like Gary Bledsoe, who happens to be the president of the Texas NAACP,
00:02:58.780someone named Brooke Cluse, who happens to be not only a lawyer, but chief of staff to
00:03:04.340Benjamin Crump, who is basically an Al Sharpton type, and Sean Derdia, whose claim to fame is
00:03:12.080getting a hung jury for an alleged, an alleged Trenda Aragua member charged with murder. Okay.
00:03:19.220So that's his new legal team, uh, who thinks they're going to be able to turn around this
00:03:25.760just conviction. Good luck. Good luck. Uh, that organization writing in a press release quote,
00:03:31.680our responsibility is to determine whether a legal error occurred and to ensure that every issue
00:03:37.360supported by the record is fully and vigorously presented on appeal. That's great. We've already
00:03:41.280had a full trial and it was entirely supported, the verdict that the jury came to. So, you know,
00:03:48.460you're going to do what all criminal defendants do and try to appeal it and try to find some
00:03:52.480scurrilous ground, arguing that he didn't get a fair trial in one way, shape or form. And he's
00:03:57.180entitled to that appeal. It's not going to go anywhere. That's news, I think, to Sonny Hauston
00:04:05.260over at The View, who knows better? She's a former federal prosecutor. She knows very well0.92
00:04:12.200what she says here is total nonsense. Watch. You're supposed to have a jury of your peers0.79
00:04:19.180and you're not supposed to just strike someone because they're black. And in this case, they0.98
00:04:24.840gave the reasoning that they're educators and this happened, these were high school students,
00:04:29.700and this happened at a school track meet. So they couldn't be impartial because of that.
00:04:33.560I don't think that's an appropriate reason to best ones. Yeah, I don't think it's an appropriate reason to strike black jurors, especially when it's a young black teenager on trial.1.00
00:04:44.440And especially when that particular area is made up of 10 percent of an African-American community.
00:04:49.400So I don't think he got a jury of his peers. So I think on appeal, there is a legitimate thing, a legitimate reason.
00:04:55.300I'm sorry, but that is a blatant misstatement of the law. As she knows, the Supreme Court has
00:05:04.320specifically held that you have no right to have individuals of your same race on your jury.
00:05:12.620That's black letter law now. She knows that. Why is she doing this? Why is she saying that?0.96
00:05:19.660The same reason we have Jasmine Crockett and these other race hustlers trying to stir up1.00
00:05:24.620racial hatred to try to suggest that you have some sort of constitutional right.1.00
00:05:29.100If you're a white person to an all white jury.0.71
00:05:41.740You're not even entitled to a partially black or white jury.0.76
00:05:45.340You're not entitled to any racial makeup on your jury.
00:05:48.380You're just entitled to a fair one. And they can't strike a juror because he or she is black or white or old, any of the protected categories. But you're not entitled to have a jury that matches the racial makeup of yourself or your preference.
00:06:04.980All right. Now, there were no black individuals on the 12 person jury that tried the Austin Metcalf Carmelo Anthony case, but there were three racial minorities, including Asian and Indian and all of the 18 person jury.
00:06:19.120like if you, if you include the alternates, uh, of, of, of those six were minorities, six.
00:06:26.220It's also true that the judge allowed the prosecution to strike three black female
00:06:31.340jurors, but they said this was due to the women's potential bias as educators, not due to their race.
00:06:38.180That's the prosecution's only obligation or whichever side is striking the juror. If the0.96
00:06:42.120other side says, you know, we want to know why you say this is why, and the judge will make a call.
00:06:46.900Sometimes the judges do say, I don't buy that. But here they said, we're not striking them due
00:06:52.600to race. We're striking them because they're educators and we don't want a bunch of teachers
00:06:55.880on this jury. This happened at a high school. There would be all sorts of reasons why you
00:07:00.680wouldn't want teachers there. They think they know better. They might know the potential
00:07:04.180witness list members. I've said before, one of the things they always told us to look out for
00:07:12.520before we tried cases was you don't want a mini expert going in there on your jury.
00:07:17.420So, you know, you're, you're trying to case about welding. You don't want an expert welder
00:07:21.100on your jury. He's going to think he knows better. You want the jury to only accept the
00:07:25.700evidence you put in front of them, you and your opposing counsel. So you would not want a bunch
00:07:31.420of educators because they'd have their own thoughts about what the traditions are at the
00:07:35.160track meets and you know, how this particular thing was likely to work based on their experience.
00:07:40.460No, no, no. You haven't been certified as an expert. You are being called there to be a juror,
00:07:46.080an impartial arbiter of facts. So it makes perfect sense to me that either side might not want
00:07:52.680educators sitting on the jury. And it made perfect sense to this judge as well, who knew that under
00:08:00.500Supreme Court precedent, when challenged, prosecutors must have a neutral explanation
00:08:04.320for excluding a juror that has nothing to do with race. That's all. And the judge in Carmelo
00:08:09.420Anthony's case, John Roach, absolutely believed that's what happened here as we just heard him
00:08:15.520espouse on his interview with WFAA. Like I told you before, as long as I follow the law,
00:08:22.240I sleep well at night. And I'm telling you, I follow the law in that case. Did I know
00:08:27.800what the perception was going to be? Sure. I knew in the back of my mind what the perception was
00:08:33.320going to be, but I'm not here to satisfy perceptions. I'm not here to satisfy agendas.
00:08:37.760I'm not here to do any of those things. I'm here to follow the law and I did it to a T
00:08:42.100and I'm proud of that. Very proud of that. Look, this guy is no nonsense and that's going to come
00:08:48.280back to help, uh, this verdict and the prosecution, which will be fighting to sustain it on appeal.0.98
00:08:55.280This is not some moron who got placed on the bench for politics. You can, you can tell this0.92
00:09:00.840guy's a serious jurist and he knew what he was doing. And this is not the first time I'm sure
00:09:07.180he's had a defendant raise complaints like this. But Sonny Hostin's complaints didn't just stop
00:09:13.460with a jury, actually. She says she's still not convinced. The misleading's went on for five
00:09:20.180minutes, okay? I won't subject you to the whole segment, because each moron there of the view0.99
00:09:24.260weighed in. I mean, truly, one is dumber than the next. Sonny Hostin's not dumb. This is willful1.00
00:09:31.700misinformation on her part, meant to push a racial agenda that she has that ABC has been0.72
00:09:38.680allowing for far too long. This is willful misinformation. All right, here she is trying0.98
00:09:47.060to convince the national audience at ABC that Carmelo Anthony did act in self-defense. She's
00:09:55.900not convinced that the jury was right in finding otherwise. Watch. I also think we have to look at
00:10:02.060self-defense here because there seems to be two systems of justice at play in this country. And
00:10:07.360there have been for a very long time. I was part of the system. So I understand that. And I believe
00:10:11.300that to be true. In this case, this young man, you heard him say he put his hands on me and I told him
00:10:17.920not to this uh the kid that that died and and i have i i have so much empathy for for him and his
00:10:25.500family's loss that kid was 200 pounds this kid was 130 pounds and so and the other kid was also
00:10:33.040taller than than he is he was the only black kid under the tent and he this the the the victim here
00:10:40.800had his twin brother with him who was also a very large person if that if you don't fear for your
00:10:46.760your life if you weigh 130 pounds i weigh 130 pounds facing somebody that's 200 pounds
00:10:52.420i would be terrified of that i don't understand why self-defense uh was rejected by this jury
00:10:58.340he asked him he dared him to put his hands on him anthony dared metcalf to put his hands on him
00:11:09.520He wasn't afraid. He was provoking him. You dishonest hack. He went in there and intentionally provoked him. One of the many reasons why self-defense was not available to him. Why it did not fly.
00:11:28.040You cannot claim self-defense when you provoked the action against yourself.
00:11:33.900You cannot taunt someone, beg someone to lay hands on you, and then when they do so,
00:11:40.600stab them in the heart and say, oh, gee, I was just defending myself.
00:11:45.880The self-defense law understands that.
00:11:48.400And separately, the jury understands that.
00:11:51.840But Austin's dad, Jeff Metcalf, who was gagged for the course of this trial, like everybody else, and not able to defend his son, the murder victim, as he was being defamed by people like Jasmine Crockett, he is on a bit small media tour.
00:12:13.440He's not looking for fame. He's looking to rehabilitate his sweet son's image. He did nothing wrong, nothing. And villains like Sonny Hostin are trying to argue, oh, he's so intimidating with his big frame to 130 pounds. You know what? You know what you wouldn't do, Sonny? You're 130 pounds? Good for you. I'm 120. You know what I wouldn't do?
00:12:34.600I would not go up to somebody who was 80 pounds more than I was and say, do it.
00:12:41.800Lay hands on me. Do it. I wouldn't do that. I would understand that there was a chance that
00:12:48.980he might actually do that. And then if I overreacted in response, I could be heading
00:12:54.220away to jail for 35 years like Carmelo Anthony is. So stop. All right. And by the way, no,
00:13:01.220absolutely no accounting made in her little summary there for the fact that this was not a
00:13:05.620woman being attacked by two hulking football players. This was one track meet participant
00:13:12.800confronting another track meet participant, provoking him saying, go ahead, lay hands on me.
00:13:19.000And then when he did so as gently, gently enough that he didn't even knock Carmelo into the guy
00:13:23.740next to him while they were seated, he got a knife in the heart. And she knows very well
00:13:29.800that all self-defense, all self-defense has to be proportionate to the threat. You cannot respond
00:13:37.540to a push with a knife to the heart. That is inherent in the law, which she knows.
00:13:44.040But back to Austin's father, Jeff Metcalf. So he's been trying to get the truth out there about what
00:13:50.840actually happened here because it's just the disinformation. I showed you that reporter Mimi
00:13:55.020from The Breakfast Club, which is a popular show, and just got the dereliction of duty
00:14:01.120in trying to actually confront, in that situation, Carmelo Anthony's parents with facts,
00:14:06.440gently, kindly. I understand they're suffering, too. You'd have to handle it gingerly,
00:14:11.580rather than just allow disinformation to go out to all your listeners. How irresponsible is that?
00:14:16.420So Austin's dad is on the Will Cain show yesterday and was asked to respond to Sonny
00:17:49.500I mean, I think all of us went to high school and we went to track meets and football games
00:17:56.280and we understood there were two different sides and sometimes there were tents where
00:17:59.980parents would meet, but no one went to those events with a knife, armed, concealed weapon
00:18:10.200in your backpack and then no one went to the other side or to a group that he knew might
00:18:16.800be hostile or might feel that you were uninvited and then when asked to leave would not leave
00:18:22.980and then almost dared people to force him to leave and then when somebody tapped him took out a weapon
00:18:31.160and stabbed it not in his shoulder not in his leg but right through his heart and killed him
00:18:37.500and then left the scene did not say I'm sorry or let's I didn't mean to do it let's see if we can
00:18:43.340stopped the bleeding just left and then admitted to what he did to law enforcement so it was a
00:18:49.620pretty open and shut case he went to the track meet armed and he you can make the argument he
00:18:57.640intended to use that or he wouldn't have brought it if he got into a situation which he created
00:19:01.800so it was pretty open and shut but I'm not even sure there has been a lot of different
00:19:08.540conflicted press reports. Some say that he weighed at 160. I don't know what he weighed,
00:19:14.500but the idea that there was a weight disparity is not really applicable when you push somebody,
00:19:22.440and then you, I mean, when somebody gently pushes you, and then you take out a weapon.
00:19:26.700The other thing I never understood, they kept saying it was just a knife. It was just a knife.
00:19:30.880It wasn't, I heard that for about two weeks. It was just a small pocket. It doesn't really matter,
00:19:36.060and it's not a murder weapon. A rock can be a murder weapon. A piece of stick can be a murder
00:19:41.280weapon. It doesn't really matter that it was a knife and not a gun, or the blade was this long
00:19:46.620or not that long. So they've tried every single ruse because they can't confront the reality
00:19:53.700that there's two young men. One person is not where he's supposed to be. He's gently asked to
00:19:59.200leave. He does not want to leave. He wants to make a point. And he came with a weapon.
00:20:04.600And so I don't know what else to say other than it's a larger commentary on racial relations.
00:20:11.780Ever since the Obama years, I think the idea was we were very optimistic that race was becoming incidental, not essential to who we all are.
00:20:20.200And now it just seems to me when affirmative action morphed into diversity, equity, and inclusion, and then the George Floyd, and then it was just a focus, a fixation, addiction to racial disparities.
00:20:35.740And then it was statute topping and toppling and name changing and get rid of the SAT and a quality of result.
00:20:46.020And I think what happened, people got, they were wrong and met a pressure that this was going to be the norm. And then when we had a change of administration, people, whether it was DEI in the Defense Department or the Ivy League and Stanford and other universities reinstating the SAT and coming to their senses, then everybody got very angry in the DEI community.
00:28:43.160But when you saw two to one vote to end illegal immigration and people were actually in Europe got up and said, send them back, whether you agree with that or not, that's incredible for Europe.
00:28:54.880And you can see these parties, you can see in the Western Hemisphere, conservative victories in Colombia and Ecuador, Peru, Chile, Argentina, that whole leftist paradigm that we really exported all over the world.
00:29:11.600The DEI was born here, and that whole idea, whether it was through USAID or whether it was our popular culture, it doesn't work in a consensual society.
00:29:21.440It just pits people against each other in a tribal fashion, and it's a collectivism.
00:29:27.740There's no individuality, and I think the universities, I work on a campus, and you should hear, Megan, the professors off the record, off the record.
00:29:36.820they're all left-wing and they all say after we got rid of the SAT after George Floyd I can't
00:29:42.760teach my classes because I have to either reduce the workload or I have to introduce new gut courses
00:29:49.400or I have to do what I did 80 percent A's and that's the biggest problem right now at Yale
00:29:54.540Harvard 80 percent A's and you say why are you doing that and they say privately I don't want
00:30:01.120to be statistically accused of being a racist and when particular people don't get the grade
00:30:07.260that they like and they show a pattern of being into a particular group. And so it's affected
00:30:14.980everything. It's permeated the entire society, but it didn't have the effect the architects
00:30:19.620wanted. It's creating a backlash. And now they'll complain about the backlash. I mean,
00:30:27.400Sonny, Sonny Hostin lives in a mansion. She posted pictures of it herself publicly. So that's how we
00:30:33.880know it's spectacular. She makes millions of dollars a year. She talks about how her son,1.00
00:30:39.500when he started running through the neighborhood, like he was training for track, I think she,
00:30:44.340she mentioned yesterday that he was on the track team. And, um, she went to the local police
00:30:49.000station to say, that's my boy. That black boy is my boy. Don't you arrest him for running while
00:30:55.500black, because I'm sure in her very Tony Westchester village, they arrest all black people0.94
00:31:01.840who are running, you know, people who are related to Sonny Hostin. Sure, sure they do. She's not1.00
00:31:07.600grateful to a country that helped her son, that allowed her son to go to Harvard. We're still all
00:31:12.980racists. All the jury is in Texas. Of course, the white people, they're going to be racist. That's
00:31:18.640why you have to have blacks. And it's not just universities doing this or media. The story you1.00
00:31:25.200told reminded me when my daughter was in, I guess it was fourth grade, that's when the Chauvin trial
00:31:34.660was happening. And we were still in the city in our woke private schools. And her teachers made
00:31:42.780the class read a Newzilla article about the verdict against Derek Chauvin. It was like a
00:31:49.520one-page article. So they did. All those fourth grade girls read the article. And then the two
00:31:54.280teachers said, you know, have like the main and then the assistant. Let's talk about it. And the
00:31:59.040first girl raised her hand and said, um, Oh no. First, the teacher said there is a major problem
00:32:06.000in this country, massive problem with cops killing black men. Okay. So that's the premise to start1.00
00:32:14.580the discussion. So one girl raised her hand and said, um, wasn't he resisting arrest?
00:32:20.200and the teacher said they always say that to defend their actions like these evil white cops
00:32:27.380and then then my daughter raised her hand and said wasn't he on a lot of drugs at the time
00:32:34.580and the second teacher said this conversation is making me very uncomfortable and i am shutting it
00:32:41.620down right now of course you know disallowed the discussion amongst a bunch of nine-year-old girls
00:32:48.520who had been assigned this article.0.81
00:33:44.940So, Kamala Anthony, all he knows is that if he goes to that track meet, and he has a knife, and he goes where he's not supposed to be, and he gets in an altercation, the larger discourse is going to allow him to make an argument, or he won't be held accountable.
00:34:04.800In other words, DEI takes away all deterrent fears.
00:34:08.200It just says, whatever happens to you, you're going to play this race card, and you're going to get an exception.
00:34:14.720And they think that because it's all over the popular media.
00:34:20.020And, Victor, if I forgive the interruption, but it also teaches racial grievance in the first place.
00:37:44.320And then we said we can't deal with it.0.99
00:37:46.620And you could see why, because the 13 colonies would have split apart immediately.
00:37:51.500We put it off long enough, and this is not sustainable.
00:37:54.700And they had that 700,000 people killed.
00:37:58.740And I think right now it's just a force multiplier, the blue state model, this whole therapeutic stuff, the government fraud.
00:38:06.420But all of this emphasis on tribalism and open borders and people are saying this doesn't work, you people.
00:38:13.540I have to say, I look at what's happening because this Carmelo Anthony trial and the reaction to it has been so insane that it's just a very stark reminder that the left has not abandoned these radical notions about the role race plays in any and all aspects of society.
00:38:34.120And it makes me so angry because I feel like no one rioted when a 17-year-old black boy shoved a knife in the heart of a 17-year-old white boy.
00:38:49.080No whites were out there chanting white lives matter and, you know, saying the system is set up against whites and so on.
00:38:57.560And, you know, that there has been a massive change in the bias.0.82
00:39:02.600Try growing up a white boy today versus a black girl.0.99
00:39:07.140All the advantages are with the latter in today's day and age when it comes to getting1.00
00:39:10.900into universities and getting jobs and so on.
00:41:25.300I work at the Hoover Institution, and there's four African American people who were associated with it. Tom Sold, Shelby Steele, Condi Rice, and Kyron Skinner, and they were the best scholars there. I mean, it has nothing to do with black people generically.
00:41:42.720It's a group of very well-off, educated, supposedly educated elites that are drumming this up among the lower classes.0.98
00:41:54.980And they're using, actually, the criminal element, they're using that element to divide us and then to get spoils from society.0.94
00:42:03.920And I feel bad because the people who are really warning us have been black intellectuals on the conservative side, what was going on.0.96
00:42:12.220And Tom Soule was, he was, life was threatened.1.00
00:42:15.100We had to have a, you know, all of his mail had to be examined.
00:42:18.120But all those threats were coming from people on the left.
00:42:44.700It's these elites, these leftist elites who are just spewing their bile and trying to create race riots or just hatred that they'll never have to deal with.
00:42:54.500As you point out, with their guards and in their mansions and their fancy cars driven by chauffeurs, they'll never have to deal with it.
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00:53:56.580operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. All right, full-time thoughts. Craig, who stood out?
00:54:02.000Brazil's lime cheesecake started great, didn't let up. Nah, for me, Italian cappuccino was to stand
00:54:06.840out in the box. But if we're talking decadent performance, that's all France. Chocolate0.96
00:54:10.740but creme brulee had the richest finishes.
00:54:12.840Canadian fireworks really showed up big too.
00:54:14.840And Mexico's Caramel Churro Ice Cap gave me chills.
00:54:18.340We are, of course, talking about Tim's taste of the Globe Liner.
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01:08:20.080So it's just that, and now we hear, of course, even the character assassination, the threats to the justices, the leaking about the Dobbs case, all of that is still not enough.
01:08:33.340And we're told that this new Democratic Socialist Party, they're going to pack the court along with, they think they're going to get rid of the Electoral College by the National Voters Compact.
01:08:42.800They're going to bring in two states, they say, Puerto Rico and make Washington, D.C. a state.
01:08:47.740They're going to, if they are still in the minority, they're going to try to, I don't know, eliminate the filibuster.
01:08:56.780And now we're even talking, the latest thing is they want to, I think one of the socialist candidates for House wants to turn the Senate into the House.
01:09:07.240In other words, it's not fair that senators represent states rather than demography, and they want them to be, you know, popular, 20 senators in California, zero in Wyoming, that kind of stuff.
01:09:18.920So they want to, what I'm getting at is they know they're.
01:09:21.740You know who they don't want to make a state, Victor? Cuba.
01:14:44.740But you also know, Victor, I could have sat here with you a year ago and said, all right, Victor, knowing nothing about the case other than this.
01:14:53.580On the one side, a man claiming he's a woman and wearing a dress and saying he's a furry.
01:15:00.260On the other side, a conservative U.S. Supreme Court justice named Brett Kavanaugh.
01:15:06.100In the middle of the case is the decision to overrule Roe versus Wade.0.95
01:15:13.120what is this trans person likely to get as a sentence the minimum the maximum or something
01:15:23.280else you would have you would have said below the minimum you would have said that just based on
01:15:28.400knowing nothing other than that absolutely and when i looked at susan blassey was that her name
01:15:33.880susan blassey ford christine excuse me i i looked at that none of her story made sense nobody even
01:15:41.060her friends couldn't corroborate the story she was obviously at times disturbed she said she was
01:15:46.700afraid of flying she had a record of flying she had been coached and i said to myself
01:15:51.100they're almost going to win this case because they had all the leftist money all the she was
01:15:57.500a cause slave and it was it was as soon as as soon as it was over it was all revealed it was
01:16:03.320kind of just constructed it was like eugene carroll she was a heartthrob remember her
01:16:07.860E. Jean Carroll. And none of her stories. She couldn't remember what year the supposed assault
01:16:14.020took place. She couldn't remember what dress because it hadn't even been made yet. She couldn't
01:16:19.220get any of the story. Then that law and order had an episode where it was almost the same thing
01:16:24.360as she was in the same department store. And then she had apps about how to break up people's
01:16:31.140marriages. And then she was bragging that one of her favorite... She named her cat Vagina.1.00
01:16:35.600Yes. And she said one of her favorite actors was Donald Trump. And she loved The Apprentice. This was 10, 15 years. And then finally, I thought, nobody's going to believe this. And then they had a bill of attainder, which is, you know, better than I, is unconstitutional in the New York legislature and said, well, for one year, there's no statute of limitations for sexual assault claim.0.99
01:16:56.040They heard her story. They heard her coming out with it. They realized she was up against the statute of limitations. They were like, oh, we have an idea. We'll just change the law.
01:17:04.160And now this same now this same half of the country, you know, the far left on the left side will lecture us about how, you know, Donald Trump is acting extra judicially and abusive process at the DOJ.
01:17:17.760Just stop. Please stop. Because some of us remember what happened during the Biden four years.
01:17:23.560Last but not least, I have a weird one.
01:17:25.380That's basically the theme of the book I wrote, The Counter-Root.
01:17:29.340I had been when I started it. I didn't realize how bad it was.
01:17:33.720I knew it was bad, but I go through all of those cases, Alvin Bragg, Latina James, that's half the book.
01:17:41.300And then I looked at all of the media accounts, and then I looked at the polls.
01:17:47.060And what the weird thing was, every time he had the one mugshot, every time Jack Smith gave a press conference,
01:17:54.500every time somebody said he was going to be, his polls went up.
01:18:17.140And the funny thing is I said to myself, this must have been all constructed out of the White House, even though they were local state prosecutors.
01:18:24.260Then I found out that three days after he announced that he was going to run for President
01:18:29.100Meghan, Nathan Wade was in the White House talking to the White House.
01:18:35.440When does a Fulton County prosecutor go to the White House?
01:18:38.820That same day, Merrick Garland, the same day appoints Jack Smith as special prosecutor.
01:18:46.460The same day Latita James is logged in at the White House.
01:18:49.860The same day, Michael Colangelo, the third highest guy in the DOJ, who had just come there from Alvin Bragg's case, leaves that prestigious job to go work for Alvin Bragg.
01:40:37.880to sound kind of like likable, Maureen?
01:40:40.920It sounds feminine to me. A lot of the verbiage is feminine. This, this buried with nature. It's, it's like they're trying to comfort people. Why are you trying to comfort someone when you're feminine? It doesn't it? A lot of this does. Yeah. It's, it's very good observation.
01:40:59.640Yeah. What guy is going to say, I'm, you know, I could have never foreseen this and nothing you could have done could have changed this. What that is neither here nor there. That has nothing to do with anything. Well, I'll tell you what could have changed it. You not breaking into the home of an 84 year old woman. There's a there's a, you know, breaking headline for you.
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01:44:24.160i've seen them with my own eyes so i want to actually provide more context as to what that
01:44:34.340second note said the way that this note was written it's written as we like we didn't know
01:44:39.720this as if it was some sort of team or whoever was involved in this it said we did not fully
01:44:45.520grasp the seriousness of her physical condition it went on to say that they never intended to hurt her
01:44:51.580during all of this they continued and said she perished shortly after she was taken they believe
01:44:58.320that it was heart related and then what the reports were confirming earlier today that she
01:45:02.240was buried with nature and maybe the most important part of the second ransom note it said
01:45:07.860nothing you could have done could have changed the outcome we are truly sorry there it is again
01:45:15.920reporting by now crime junkie reporter Brianna Whitney, who says she's seen that second
01:45:22.540ransom note or however you want to characterize it note from the alleged kidnappers of Nancy
01:45:27.580Guthrie and that it did include an apology, an announcement that she had died, a statement that
01:45:34.840we did not fully grasp the seriousness of her condition. We never intended to hurt her.
01:45:40.260she perished shortly after she was taken we believe it was heart related she's been quote
01:45:46.460buried with nature and nothing you could have done could have changed the outcome welcome back
01:45:52.820we're discussing the latest with the nancy guthrie case with maureen o'connell a 25 year old veteran
01:45:57.100of the fbi and co-host of big city crime behind the red tape and james hamilton a former fbi
01:46:02.480supervisory special agent who now runs his own security firm called hamilton security group um
01:46:08.460yeah so back can we just like hit on the feminine point a little bit more maybe expand on that
01:46:13.000like buried with nature we never intended to hurt her even like she perished perished was that word
01:46:22.680used i wonder because that's that jumped out at me that's not really how people talk and then the
01:46:27.760nothing you could have done could have changed the outcome like don't blame you know like weird
01:46:32.980yeah yeah it's just very conciliatory and and very strange considering the facts of this
01:46:41.420investigation of this case of this poor woman to talk this way you know any any0.82
01:46:47.660any self-respecting criminal would at least be a little more honest about what happened here
01:46:56.480they're trying to soften what they did and please don't blame yourself i hope you're not being too
01:47:01.900hard on yourself. It's so weird. Well, because, I mean, if you're following their logic,
01:47:08.600they had said in the original note on February 2nd, and again, Sunday was the first,
01:47:14.280give us $4 million by Thursday or else. Again, using the term actual or else.
01:47:21.580And now here we are, they haven't paid and they're writing the note saying she's gone.
01:47:28.400Oh, and by the way, there was nothing that you could have done to change the outcome.
01:47:32.360So they seem to be saying, you didn't give us our four million bucks, but don't worry.
01:47:51.740And Brianna's description of it, no one's talking about.
01:47:55.400but that original because the original note we know james said four million by thursday six million
01:48:01.840by the following monday if you wait it's going to cost you more then comes the second note like
01:48:06.740why would they send the second note like hey fyi she she died and don't blame yourself like what's
01:48:11.920the point of that well it looks like they also didn't give any real um you know particulars on
01:48:17.840how to get that four million to them it doesn't sound like there was any clear communication given
01:48:23.260You know, this is how you would respond to me, get back to me.
01:48:27.240And then they're just double tapping, hey, by the way, it's not worth it now because she's gone.
01:48:32.480And we're sorry, but you can still give me some money because I get the body back to you.
01:48:36.340But I think you and Maureen are nailing a couple of really important things, if true, that she's with nature.
01:48:43.400Instead of saying, you know, she's gone with God.
01:48:45.520I mean, if you're following the case, you know that Nancy was a believer.
01:48:49.980And so that would track with her, you know, this note person saying it was a heart condition, which would track with if you're following the case, you know, about the pacemaker.
01:48:57.760But saying that she is buried with nature is interesting that needs to be looked into.
01:49:02.580And there's plenty of people who are really smart and can put words together and study language and really good context of a statement like that.
01:49:10.900Is that said in certain parts of the world?
01:49:12.640And certainly I hope the FBI is looking into something like that, because that's just a very interesting phrase.
01:49:17.080And then what you had said earlier, Megan, about we didn't realize the extent of her condition, it kind of drew me to one of the two things, which is I thought initially there was some preoperational surveillance, meaning they looked at the house and maybe even looked at her.
01:49:34.420And then whether or not that was because she was Savannah's mother or because it's in line with this nice house, nice theory.
01:49:43.760You know, we were talking earlier about, you know, a crime gang hitting these nice houses, but still both would speak to preoperational surveillance.
01:49:51.180And maybe that's what she's, you know, the note writer is alluding to is when we looked at it, we didn't realize she was that, you know, kind of old or fragile.
01:49:59.060And I thought that was very interesting.
01:50:00.560there's um reaction today from savannah herself uh who did address this on the today show this
01:50:07.580morning it's like you kind of forget that she's back doing her job without any resolution in this
01:50:14.260case which you know she has to do i'm you know we all have a job to do she has a job to do
01:50:19.200but like then this story is in the news again and she you know felt the need to respond for
01:50:25.260obvious reasons. And here's what she said. The bravery and courage with which you have done this
01:50:31.020job every day since that happened. Nothing short of remarkable. Nothing short of remarkable.
01:50:36.020I love you guys and I love this place. And this is unusual and unprecedented to say the least to
01:50:41.120be sitting here. But, you know, I don't have any comment on the story and I'm not involved in our
01:50:47.520coverage. But I can't pretend I'm not here. And so since I am, I wanted to just take the opportunity
01:50:54.020to to ask people to really to beg people to come forward somebody knows something
01:50:59.220and this is a new story today that is on your radar but this is the life that my sister lives
01:51:05.460that i live that my brother lives that our extended families live that our children live
01:51:09.960every day and we are in agony and we cannot be at peace so how much i try to come out here every
01:51:18.380day and smile and find that joy and i will i promise i will this is the moment to tell you
01:51:23.900that we need your help we're begging for your help and i'm not going to miss that opportunity
01:51:28.900and so please if you're watching yes no matter how small the reward is there you can tell us
01:51:35.740it can be anonymous please do the right thing for us for our family for our children
01:51:40.400and we love our mom and we'll never stop looking for her never
01:51:44.180i wish she had mentioned the reward too because it's like somebody that that the reward actually
01:51:52.560could motivate somebody to come forward. And that is something we should discuss because
01:51:57.300Howard's reporting, and I know Howard Bloom, he's very solid. Like he's, I don't know how he gets
01:52:04.440the information he gets, but he gets really good exclusives. And his reporting is that this task
01:52:11.780force that we've all discussed before, you know, that's what remains on the investigatory team now.
01:52:17.080and it's a combo of FBI and Tucson cops, detectives, that the task force has like
01:52:27.560expressed some regret from the sound of it about not paying the ransom. Like that if they had just
01:52:37.240paid, if the FBI had agreed to pay the ransom or tell Savannah to pay the ransom, that 4 million
01:52:43.140bucks in the beginning, that the FBI really feels confident in its ability to track the Bitcoin,
01:52:48.620James. You know, it's Bitcoin. So it's not just like cashing a check. It's going to be a lot
01:52:52.880harder to track it. But that at some point we've, you know, the Bitcoin has to be withdrawn or does
01:52:58.540the kidnapper no good. And so why didn't they just pay the four million and then track the Bitcoin
01:53:06.400and arrest the perpetrator? Because what he writes is that, and we had speculated about this,
01:53:12.000Instead, they decided to, quote, tickle the wire. And remember, we talked about how Harvey Levin had reported that there had been a $300 deposit made into the bank account of whomever wrote those first two notes into the Bitcoin account. And no one bit. No one touched it.
01:53:32.040now he's reporting it's a different number, like $141 that was deposited, but it's neither here
01:53:37.580nor there. The point is the FBI, according to him, did in fact, this is the first confirmation
01:53:42.300we've had that it was the FBI who put the money in and that it was an attempt to tickle the wire,
01:53:46.720James. They thought maybe the kidnapper would be dumb enough to take it. And Howard reports that0.98
01:53:53.280either, you know, either the kidnapper was like, nice try, right? And knew it was a trap or just
01:54:00.360wasn't interested in, you know, going, risking anything for 140 bucks. So your thoughts on
01:54:06.040whether they, they should have paid it. Like if they're really believing this note was legit as
01:54:10.460Savannah does, and her information definitely comes from them and that they had all these
01:54:15.520things right about the Nancy scene and Nancy herself. And now we know more about what the
01:54:20.520two notes sounded like, like, why didn't they just pay? It's because protocol. I mean, we got
01:54:28.660remember that the reality is we still never had a proof of life ever uh so the note the first note
01:54:36.740you know didn't indicate anything like a picture of her anything yeah we we do have some information
01:54:41.740about the the the watch but that would not be specific enough that the bureau would say yeah
01:54:47.600just go ahead and launch four million dollars because if you do and you know you don't get
01:54:52.440her back because it's a scammer then there's going to be more four million dollar requests
01:54:57.160and you're going to keep playing that game until you run out of money.
01:55:00.480And so that's why they don't do it is because if you don't have any real legitimacy
01:55:04.640and the only way you can really get that legitimacy is you've got to show us this person that you say you have,
01:55:54.100The point is they're amateurs and they and I have to first go back for a minute, if I could, to James, because if, in fact, they did pay the ransom without any proof of life, what precedent does that set for every other person who's kidnapped?
01:56:11.160Everyone's going to jump out of the woodwork even more than they do right now, because you saw the predators pounce when that award.
01:56:18.040Can we really say there's no proof of life?
01:56:19.940I'm just going to play devil's advocate.
01:56:22.120When the first note allegedly said, this is what she was wearing.
01:56:36.780Sure, but it's not enough to say that she's not dead.
01:56:40.020I mean, if you just consider how they transported her or how they had to transport her.
01:56:44.240So she's bleeding from presumably her mouth, which they already know by now because they've tested that blood to see if saliva was in it or whatever on the front porch.
01:57:41.100no you got just in negotiation school i mean they teach obviously we want to establish
01:57:46.880communication rapport but we got to keep the goal in mind and we both have the same goal here i mean
01:57:52.200i want to get her if i'm working this as a negotiator and i'm talking to the kidnapper
01:57:56.520look i want her back and you want to give her to me because you want your money so we we have a0.92
01:58:00.980common ground here but for me to get this money because four million bucks you know i don't have0.96
01:58:04.900it laying around i got to go get that but before i go get it can you prove to me you have her and
01:58:10.220And it can't be that you know there's a floodlight out that you could have got from, you know, Google Earth overview or some, you know, previous story.
01:58:18.720Because, Megan, you did a great job playing all the previous stories of interviews that Savannah had done with her mom where I could have seen that Apple Watch.
01:58:26.880I could have seen the details of that inside of her bedroom.
01:58:29.580I could have told you the nightgown she likes to wear.
01:58:31.820I could have told you the color of her pillows.
01:58:33.820All things I would have got from, you know, open source.
01:58:36.080I wasn't the kidnapper, but I would have seen those things, you know, they were open to me.
01:58:39.460So what we would be looking for is give me something else, like prove to me you have her, which is why you always see the newspaper clipping, you know, the hostage holds the newspaper of the day.
01:58:49.000So we know, OK, we still have a live body and then we can negotiate in good faith.
01:58:53.720If you're fake, if this is a faker, OK, I'm with you, I get I accept all that.0.98
01:58:58.380But like if you're a faker, why would you send that second?0.87
01:59:02.100No, I can I can actually kind of follow the real kidnapper might do it.0.78
01:59:06.000Like if the real kidnapper has her, it's Tuesday night.
01:59:09.680Sorry, it's the first was Sunday when she was taken, right?
01:59:56.440And we were never sure whether that was 100% true
01:59:59.040or whether it was an attempt to ratchet up the urgency
02:00:01.100for the kidnappers, like we need her back ASAP.0.68
02:00:03.520maybe, maybe it was 100% true and she dies. So now she dies. So you, you can't give proof of
02:00:10.160life. There's no more life. You have Nancy, but it's a body now. And maybe by the time they sent
02:00:16.920this follow-up note, um, on February 6th, that was the day after the ransom, the ransom was due
02:00:25.840and not paid. Maybe by that day, you decided to take a different tactic. You've got it. You've
02:00:31.740got to fess up. You cannot provide proof of life. There's not going to be any talking to Nancy
02:00:35.300or pictures of Nancy holding the daily paper. So you decide to come clean saying she's dead,
02:00:44.540but I don't know whether it's explicit in here, according to that Brianna, it's not, but maybe
02:00:50.120the theory is the earlier demand will stand and maybe they will pay us for the return of the body.
02:00:56.320And indeed, that is what Savannah responds with. So that makes sense to me. But if you are a fake
02:01:02.540kidnapper just trying to get Bitcoin, $4 million or $6 million, that second note makes no sense.
02:01:08.960Well, I don't, I mean, I'm surprised you haven't been through this because I know I have. And I
02:01:14.360think probably Maureen has too. But when someone's trying to get something from you, they just keep
02:01:18.740trying. They don't stop, right? They're incessant about it. It never ends. They just keep coming.
02:01:24.740And so they hang on for anything. And that's why you send the second note is, oh, maybe I say the right things. Maybe I sound like you all had said earlier. Maybe if I sound apologetic or I sound sympathetic that maybe, you know, you'll send me some money because I have nothing right now. If I'm a scammer, I have no money right now. Maybe I can get a hundred grand from you if I tell you where the body is.
02:01:46.220You know, and that's that's that's typical one on one fraud fraudster mentality and methodology.
02:07:13.480then you get resolution the guthrie family gets resolution and if he scams us he scams us but i
02:07:22.740just had this real feeling that it might be real and i've called a half a dozen times since over
02:07:31.180the last couple of weeks and i've gotten nothing back for some reason the fbi has gone radio silent
02:07:38.000on me. So that's another question. Why not just try to pay that one off and see if it leads
02:07:47.400anywhere? Because that person too, for whatever it's worth, was saying time is of the essence,
02:07:54.800which kind of tracks with the first ransom note we were just discussing, which we believe is from
02:08:00.920somebody else. Savannah says she believes the legitimate kidnapper. And then the reversal
02:08:05.820days later of she's gone and according to harvey's uh person time is no longer of the essence and
02:08:15.140this person wouldn't have known none of that reporting about the second you know ransom note
02:08:20.200saying she's perished and she's been buried with nature that was not yet public so you know if this
02:08:28.260guy yeah you could make the case that maybe this guy did know the actual kidnappers and maybe all
02:08:34.740of this is real. Maybe the first two notes are from the real kidnapper. And maybe this guy
02:08:38.480really didn't know the real kidnapper. And we should have, instead of putting 300 bucks or
02:08:43.140$140 in the Bitcoin account, should have actually taken Harvey up in his offer to put the half of
02:08:49.680the Bitcoin into the account and take the loss. You know, it was 45,000 bucks at one point. Like
02:08:56.300he's basically saying to the FBI, Maureen, I will pay it. I will suck it up. And they aren't getting
02:09:03.420back to him. So what's the story there? Well, maybe just as is the case with you, Megan,
02:09:08.300maybe the FBI was tired of dealing with Sheriff Harvey. Yeah, exactly. Sheriff Harvey. That's
02:09:15.200right. I think they're close right now to pulling this case together. And that's what my sources are
02:09:23.540telling me. What? Yeah, things are happening. But one of the reasons it's taking so long is because
02:09:31.020whatever defense attorney takes this investigation and represents whoever they charge in this case,
02:09:38.080you have to operate under the assumption, like from day one, you're doing your trial prep
02:09:43.280practically. Everything you do is geared toward trial and prosecution. And if you're going to
02:09:54.560have the greatest defense attorney in the world handling this case, whoever takes this case.
02:09:59.840So you have to operate under the assumption that a couple of big chunks of your evidence may get tossed.
02:10:05.020So you have to put a case together in such a way that it would withstand losing some of these chunks of evidence,
02:10:11.960depending on how you got them or how vulnerable they might be to getting tossed.
02:10:16.800So I think they're just working on these other chunks of evidence, shoring them up even more.
02:10:21.720But I think we're getting closer. I actually really do think they're getting closer.
02:10:25.900And one thing, when James talks about being a negotiator and he talked about every time a kidnapper puts out a ransom note, just the words have all kinds of implications.
02:10:41.480And so the same holds true for FBI agents when we speak to people on the outside.
02:10:46.380If we talk to them and there's optimism in our voice and we sound upbeat and we don't want to answer questions, the person we're talking to could say, wow, they're probably closer than we think they are.
02:10:58.300And that's when I would that's when I go to ground and I don't talk to anybody else when I feel like I'm I'm getting there.
02:11:05.320And I don't know, James, what do you what do you think about that when you're getting kind of close?
02:11:09.040No, wait. I love James, but we're not moving on. Sorry.
02:11:11.460in o'connell yet why could you just expand on why you think they're wrapping like they're getting
02:11:17.920there that they're close to making an arrest i think they're getting close to the porch guy
02:11:25.680and when they when they get the porch guy the floodgates shall swing open
02:11:33.900what's your level of confidence on that 75 percent maureen that's big news i know i'm like
02:11:45.220that's huge if big if true as the kids say by the way it does it it raises something else howard
02:11:54.240bloom said in his reporting that he wrote he wrote that they are thinking it was a group effort
02:12:02.460like at least two at this point, because he reports, they think the person writing about
02:12:10.000the Bitcoin, um, was sophisticated that the, the letters, the words, the English, the diction,
02:12:21.300whatever was sophisticated. And that the guy on the porch to them seemed too bumbling to be the
02:12:28.540author and again that they may think that those two notes are authentic they may think you don't
02:12:34.100i don't know that i'm going off of what i said before savannah thinks so and her her info would
02:12:38.400have come from them for sure um and harvey reported that the fbi was taking those notes very seriously
02:12:44.080so that they they're thinking the bumbler on the front porch alleged bumbler there's a difference
02:12:52.080of opinion there is not the person who did the bitcoin account and wrote the sophisticated notes
02:12:57.100and is talking about perished, she perished and she's with nature, she's buried in nature and all
02:13:03.700that. I actually, that tracks to me, that tracks that it might not be the same person. I don't
02:13:09.340know. James, your thoughts on Maureen's just dropping a bomb on us here on our casual update
02:13:14.500in the case. Well, leave it to Maureen to bring the great news. And I certainly pray that she's
02:13:20.440right and that there is some closure and all that. I would be over the moon if we actually
02:13:26.420had an arrest in this case, and I would be very, very happy about that. I did want to go back,
02:13:33.880Megan, to your question with regards to Harvey and this second individual who has some information.
02:13:43.620The reason the Bureau puts out a reward is so that we can get money to people who have useful
02:13:48.300information. And so as he started going down that road as to why the individual didn't like that
02:13:53.500idea, it sounded very criminal to me. And I mean, you know, Maureen and I, for more than 50 plus
02:13:59.160years, we talked to criminals on a daily basis. And so when he double taps with, well, I have a
02:14:05.380burglary 11 years ago, that's just nonsense, okay? He doesn't want to go to the bureau because he's
02:14:10.900probably full of crap, right? That's just the reality of it. He's making up excuses. There's1.00
02:14:15.640nothing that says we can't give you the reward even though you've had some criminal conviction
02:14:20.420years ago, as long as you weren't involved in the crime. So I just think that he sees Harvey as an
02:14:27.160easy mark and wants some publicity and wants a little bit of money. And the reason to answer
02:14:32.060your question pointedly as to why the Bureau doesn't let Harvey just pay the money, it didn't
02:14:37.240sound like they told him no, they just gave him the Heisman. They just basically said, we're moving
02:14:41.120on. We got more important things to do. And if Harvey wants to pay the guy, go right ahead. He'll
02:14:45.680probably lose the money, but it'd be a good story for him. But again, we just can't be in the
02:14:50.060business of giving money out to people that you know are chasing stories um it just doesn't work
02:14:56.200that way and it's not a professional way to to operate one of my favorite lines of all time
02:15:01.760james giving them the heisman like that i love it um yeah what about i'm going back to look at the
02:15:09.380harvey the harvey notes his special line of notes not not the receipt of the first ransom note but
02:15:16.580this other person who's like, they're in Mexico and I know who they are. Now that's the first
02:15:20.800he's revealed that the person had a burglary conviction. I had not heard that before. So
02:15:26.800the person's admitting that they have a record or maybe Harvey, Harvey doesn't have an identity on
02:15:32.620them. So no, the person must've admitted in the notes that he has a burglary conviction. So, you
02:15:38.220know, that kind of increases his credibility. You hang out with criminals. You are a criminal
02:15:42.700more likely that you're hanging out with the criminals maybe well fun fact but i'm going back0.90
02:15:47.480well i'm trying to fight figure out maureen when did that guy write time is of the essence and when
02:15:52.860did he write time is no longer of the essence because i do if it's if it tracks exactly the
02:15:59.400first note and the second note from the other guy then that is kind of interesting like doesn't that
02:16:04.800increase the chances that the second harvey guy might actually have known what he was talking
02:16:10.020about. Well, Maureen hit it, but I want to come back to it if I can. Sure. Yeah. When he says
02:16:16.900time is of the essence and he doesn't get a response, then, I mean, he just realizes that's
02:16:24.040not going to work. So he's going to go to plan C or D. And then the only other quick thing is if
02:16:28.700someone admits to us that he's got a burglary wrap in his jacket, guaranteed he's got five other
02:16:35.400charges also. Right. And I wrote it down as you were as you were playing that, Megan, I wrote it
02:16:42.180down. Because when you work fraud, wire fraud, mail fraud, you know, stuff we work forever.
02:16:48.000It's always critical, like time, time is of the essence, they always create this urgency,
02:16:53.100right? When they want to get money from somebody, it has to happen right now.
02:16:57.420There can't be any slowdown in the process at all. And they always hit the people with
02:17:01.680urgency. And so when I heard that, I was like, yep, that's typical fraud 101. I don't know.
02:17:09.420Yeah. Consider the success of all the fraud against elderly people. I've got your granddaughter0.99
02:17:14.820right here. And a young girl screaming in the background, get to the bank, withdraw money,1.00
02:17:19.160drop it off here. You can't believe the people that go along with that. When you charge it with
02:17:24.960emotion and you put a timestamp on it and you push, push, push, this is what they do.
02:17:30.880well it would it okay so i was pursuing what if it's real what if that's the real kidnapper and
02:17:37.600this is a real guy who knows the kidnapper and they're all they're writing the same thing
02:17:41.140times of the essence ah it's not of the essence um what if it's not if it's not real neither one's
02:17:48.360real then what you're saying is actually really smart and really interesting too because you're
02:17:54.720you got two bad guys behaving exactly the same way at the same time right then you got two we
02:18:00.400presume to. There's still the possibility this is the same person, but you got two bad guys who are
02:18:06.600like, emergency, emergency, I'm in on it and I know things. No response. It's not an emergency,
02:18:13.880but I might be able to help you out a little. Just mention the guy sitting around.
02:18:17.440You're seen to be saying, James, this is like tried and true. You've seen a million of these
02:18:20.240where they do exactly this pattern. And just think about the conduit. It's TMZ,
02:18:24.560right why go there if you really have useful information you're first of all you're going
02:18:30.820to the family i mean every kidnap and iver worked that they called the family they didn't call tmz
02:18:35.640they didn't call the local news station they called the family and said hey we got your kid
02:18:39.740we want the money that's how it works i mean it it just again i think i said this the first time
02:18:45.520i was with you how unorthodox this thing has been the communication through tmz or your local news
02:18:51.560I mean, you go direct to that family. And certainly if you know it's Savannah Guthrie, you go to her directly.
02:18:57.760Hey, here you go. I want my money. And again, I just I smell fraud and it's good publicity for TMZ, you know,
02:19:06.040and that's why they keep going there. And he's getting a good story out of it.
02:19:09.900I wish he had kind of paid it to see what would happen. He probably would have been out that money.
02:19:14.700Probably. Right. Especially the south of the border.
02:19:17.620There was a third party, not to be confused with these first two parties that that came in with a demand for ransom that went directly to Annie Guthrie's phone.
02:19:29.080That guy's he's been caught and he's going on trial, I think, soon for doing that.
02:19:33.580But my point is simply Annie Guthrie's number must be pretty easy to get, or at least at that time must have been pretty easy to get if some loser criminal was able to do it and text her.
02:19:43.680I've got your mother, you know, whatever.
02:19:45.620so if these kidnappers you know wanted to reach directly to the family seems like they could have0.97
02:19:53.820done it you know this nimrod did it with annie you don't have to go through savannah whose number0.76
02:19:58.300is definitely going to be protected but annie guthrie seemed accessible and they didn't do it0.94
02:20:02.840they went through tmz just to bolster your point you were going to say something maurie i couldn't
02:20:06.340agree with you more that's derrick colella from hawthorne california and i looked up when that
02:20:11.840story first hit, I tried to find their contact information and I was able to find even some
02:20:17.820scrapings of it for both Tommaso and for Annie because they're small business people and they're
02:20:23.240in the area and he's a teacher and, you know, parents, whatever. I could see that. I could also
02:20:30.120see, you know, some people are saying, why didn't they reach out to Savannah? Well, as you mentioned,
02:20:34.480And Savannah, obviously, is going to be impossible to get a direct line into.
02:20:39.640So I agree with exactly what you're saying.
02:20:43.160Derek Colella's hearing, by the way, is July 2nd.
02:20:48.940And that's going to be interesting, Megan, because after July 2nd, his case will be adjudicated, considered adjudicated.
02:20:56.800And once once that happens, if there is anything more to the Derek Colella saga and this case, he's going to be able to then he'll be free to work with the prosecution.
02:21:09.340So if anything is going to come out of that, it'll come out after July 2nd.
02:21:14.520Hmm. I just went back to the nerdy addict report that we had in March and that we discussed on this show.
02:21:24.280again it it dovetails with a lot of what we've heard today but i just want to read you what
02:21:28.880nerdy reported at the time i now have two sources confirming that one of the letters sent to the
02:21:35.580media in the nancy guthrie case allegedly states the sender apologized claiming they so that's now
02:21:43.760howard bloom this brianna whitney now of crime junkie and nerdy all saying that that the that
02:21:50.340there was an apology. Again, unclear to me whether they're saying there was an explicit I'm sorry
02:21:55.880or just the tone of the letter was an apology. Howard Bloom puts apologize in quotes that that's
02:22:04.140what he was told. And Brianna, who saw the note, says that it includes an apology. But okay, for
02:22:11.100whatever it's worth. He says the sender apologized, claiming they did not realize how serious her heart
02:22:17.260condition was and that she has, quote, gone to be with God. Now that's different. No one else is
02:22:25.060referencing gone to be with God. We're buried with nature is where we are. I can kind of see how you
02:22:31.900might confuse those two. I don't know. They're both sort of ethereal or an ending of sorts. I
02:22:37.540don't know. We'll see. According to these sources, investigators believe the message came from the
02:22:42.560same individuals who previously demanded Bitcoin, though this latest letter reportedly made no
02:22:47.020demands and was framed solely as an apology. While this has been validated by two independent
02:22:52.120sources, it has not been publicly released or confirmed by the media. And then came Howard
02:22:57.740Bloom. So that's, I don't, I just find that interesting. Like why does he have gone to be
02:23:04.160with God and the new ones don't have that, that it was behind, I don't know, she was buried in
02:23:12.300nature. But in any event, that too confirmed back in March how serious her heart condition was and
02:23:18.700that they didn't realize it. So this, what's your bet now, Maureen, having heard all this,
02:23:24.480that Savannah's right, that this probably, these first two really were from the kidnapper,
02:23:30.040and that this is the actual kidnapper, either saying she's going to be with God or buried in
02:23:34.880nature, but feeling bad about it, or at least trying to convince Savannah and co that he or
02:23:39.660she feels bad about it. Is that your bet that these are legit or no? I would say Savannah and
02:23:44.700possibly the authorities are wrong. I would say they might be legitimate in that someone knows
02:23:49.460someone close to them, overheard them, a girlfriend to some of the guys that took her
02:23:54.420as something along those lines, just because of the position of that Apple watch. People say that
02:24:00.320that was so specific that you really could not have been able to know that. And it's not like
02:24:05.840seeing it on the nightstand it's something like they ripped it off her wrist and they threw it
02:24:10.880and it landed something like under the dishwasher in the kitchen some random spot that you would
02:24:16.560not know that unless you were in that room you know well the other thing is the pajamas like
02:24:21.500i don't think you actually could know what pajamas nancy owned from what we saw on the
02:24:28.040today show that's the one thing i i agree with you james on the apple watch and the floodlight
02:24:32.760You could get both of those if you were a contractor inside the house, potentially, if the Apple Watch were just in a generic place.
02:24:40.240You know, like, you see where the charger is, and that's where she charges it, and you're there as the cleaner, and you mark that in your mind.
02:24:47.000But what pajamas she had, that would be something, you know, you'd have to be her housekeeper, basically, I think, to know that.
02:24:54.520And what pajamas she was wearing when she was abducted, that would convince me.
02:25:01.540did you have that i think you know if you do you have that somewhere
02:25:04.500yeah that's what they're reporting that that um howard is actually just referencing back
02:25:12.800to earlier reporting that um they they knew what she was wearing that the outfit correctly
02:25:19.020described what guthrie had been wearing that's what he how he phrases it and they went further
02:25:25.120and said she didn't have her slippers with her or something to remember megan way back yeah
02:25:31.080yeah that's right so that if that if if and you know we don't know but if they had that that would
02:25:38.860convince me too um what do you make of the possibility that this is more than one person
02:25:45.660maureen and the theory that porch man is not the sophisticated bitcoin and letter writer well with
02:25:54.780regard to the sophistication of that letter i've said from the beginning that you know chat gpt does
02:25:59.240great job you could i mean even if you had to translate it for example and then say make it
02:26:04.120sound more sophisticated you can do that and it and it does it fine and and i know that harvey said
02:26:09.480oh it doesn't look like chat gpt i'm not sure how he would know that but okay he does have a tech
02:26:14.340team um so i think that it's it's been my opinion since the beginning that it's probably two people
02:26:22.880because any more than two, you're just exponentially increasing your risk.
02:26:28.320But Jim Clemente, the Fitz's old partner, and also an FBI profiler,
02:26:34.240he said he's seen no evidence that there's more than one person.
02:26:38.520So he's been trying to train my brain to think that the possibility does exist,
02:26:51.020Even if she was slightly ambulatory, she was bleeding, presumably from her face.
02:26:59.040And you're going to have to do something to restrain her if you're going to put her in a car and take her someplace.
02:27:07.200And to your point about the kidnappers in Mexico and stuff like that,
02:27:11.800the vast majority of the kidnappings that we see in this country are drug-related.
02:27:18.700And by that, I mean someone has a load of dope and they get pulled over by police and the dope gets seized.
02:27:25.720Whoever those people are, they're still on the hook to the cartel to pay them for the money that they owe them.
02:27:30.760And so oftentimes that's what will spark a kidnapping.
02:27:35.560Now, that kidnapping in a situation like that, the victim will stay with like sometimes a couple that we've worked here.
02:27:43.960they've stayed with a family until the money is paid and then they release them.
02:27:49.420And I'm sure James can speak to that also. So, you know, going down to Mexico,
02:27:57.980what's happening here is far afoul from that because they're not running this operation like
02:28:06.520a cartel would run a kidnapping because it's a hit and run, get it done, get the cash,
02:28:12.740get her out of there you know that is not what happened to you not only that but james
02:28:17.920nothing you could have done could have changed the outcome we never intend that does that sound
02:28:23.640like a mexican drug cartel to me but i am an amateur not the ones not the ones i've worked
02:28:29.680um they don't speak that way and they don't write notes like that uh frankly uh so no um but that's
02:28:37.020just my experience so that's not that's not the norm but but but what do you make of multiple0.98
02:28:42.640people yeah doesn't you know ruling out the mexican gang doesn't mean it's not like a gang
02:28:47.300of two americans and let's not forget about how the back door was propped open propped open by
02:28:51.780like a planter or something yeah i've always felt this guy was trying to come in through the front
02:28:55.380door we believe he exited with nancy through the front door but i think the working theory is that
02:29:00.840he will end up getting in through the back door since the door was propped open with something
02:29:05.580Yeah, I've always felt it was multiple people. I still don't know how you get the guy on the porch saying she's with nature and we're terribly sorry. I just don't put those two together. I think it's a team. I think it always has been.
02:29:22.800I don't really believe these ransom notes are legitimate.
02:29:27.040If there was any type of desire to get paid, which they always want to get paid in these situations,
02:29:32.740they would have extended a lot more effort to make that happen, and they didn't.
02:29:37.440So I think it's interesting, but I know scammers, and I just feel so frequently that this is a scam.
02:29:46.420They're trying to get paid, and they've been proving anything to me.
02:29:49.180And just to go back to your point real quick about if they did have specificity about her nightgown, and I know you said something like you'd be convinced.
02:30:05.900I mean, I would still need to go a long way before I could fundamentally say, yeah, that's them, without them showing me a picture of her or letting me talk to her.
02:30:16.800I'm just, you know, as an FBI, I'm not going to say to the family, yeah, they've got her.