The Megyn Kelly Show - All the LIES in Karmelo Anthony Case From “The View,” with VDH, and Former FBI Special Agent Says She's 75% Confident There Will Be Arrest in Guthrie Case ｜ Ep. 1345

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00:00:15.500 All right, full-time thoughts. Craig, who stood out?

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00:00:26.260 chocolate creme brulee had the richest finishes. Canadian fireworks really showed up big too.

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00:00:44.240 Daily. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:56.260 Hey, everyone. I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. We have major developments

00:01:01.260 today in the Nancy Guthrie case, as there are new reports about the ransom notes. We'll have

00:01:05.820 a full breakdown later in the show. FYI, our pal Howard Bloom broke some major news on this whole

00:01:12.700 thing. And now every reporter is running around repeating his news, claiming that they broke it.

00:01:18.160 It's very annoying. Howard Bloom broke this news, okay? It's not that hard to credit somebody

00:01:23.700 when they break something. And for that matter, if you want to go back a little further,

00:01:27.940 someone on X who goes by nerdy addict actually was the first person to break this news. And we

00:01:33.660 brought it to you at the time. And remember, we had this whole discussion, like,

00:01:38.180 we don't know who this person is. They go by nerdy addict, but we found them very reliable

00:01:42.040 in this case. And here is their reporting. Well, guess what? It panned out. And now all these other

00:01:46.880 reporters are running around claiming it as their own. And it's not. It's not. Nerdy addict had it

00:01:52.580 first, but in the sort of mainstream press, Howard Bloom had a big exclusive and no one's

00:01:58.340 crediting him, which is annoying. Okay. Anyway. Also, you will not believe who showed up at

00:02:03.080 former President Obama's new presidential library opening. Think as radical as they come.

00:02:11.920 We'll get into it. And Kristi Noem's husband is back in the headlines. Apparently the rehab did

00:02:17.520 not work. But first, there is more news today in the Carmelo Anthony case. Yesterday, the Stand

00:02:24.980 with Carmelo coalition announced that Carmelo had a new team of six lawyers who will be handling the

00:02:31.700 appeal of his murder conviction free of charge. You remember he said he was indigent, penniless,

00:02:37.640 and he needed court-appointed lawyers? Well, he got free help that's not court-appointed. It's

00:02:43.620 like a dream team of lawyers who want to help people who aggrieved racially from the sound of

00:02:51.640 it. They include people like Gary Bledsoe, who happens to be the president of the Texas NAACP,

00:02:58.780 someone named Brooke Cluse, who happens to be not only a lawyer, but chief of staff to

00:03:04.340 Benjamin Crump, who is basically an Al Sharpton type, and Sean Derdia, whose claim to fame is

00:03:12.080 getting a hung jury for an alleged, an alleged Trenda Aragua member charged with murder. Okay.

00:03:19.220 So that's his new legal team, uh, who thinks they're going to be able to turn around this

00:03:25.760 just conviction. Good luck. Good luck. Uh, that organization writing in a press release quote,

00:03:31.680 our responsibility is to determine whether a legal error occurred and to ensure that every issue

00:03:37.360 supported by the record is fully and vigorously presented on appeal. That's great. We've already

00:03:41.280 had a full trial and it was entirely supported, the verdict that the jury came to. So, you know,

00:03:48.460 you're going to do what all criminal defendants do and try to appeal it and try to find some

00:03:52.480 scurrilous ground, arguing that he didn't get a fair trial in one way, shape or form. And he's

00:03:57.180 entitled to that appeal. It's not going to go anywhere. That's news, I think, to Sonny Hauston

00:04:05.260 over at The View, who knows better? She's a former federal prosecutor. She knows very well 0.92

00:04:12.200 what she says here is total nonsense. Watch. You're supposed to have a jury of your peers 0.79

00:04:19.180 and you're not supposed to just strike someone because they're black. And in this case, they 0.98

00:04:24.840 gave the reasoning that they're educators and this happened, these were high school students,

00:04:29.700 and this happened at a school track meet. So they couldn't be impartial because of that.

00:04:33.560 I don't think that's an appropriate reason to best ones. Yeah, I don't think it's an appropriate reason to strike black jurors, especially when it's a young black teenager on trial. 1.00

00:04:44.440 And especially when that particular area is made up of 10 percent of an African-American community.

00:04:49.400 So I don't think he got a jury of his peers. So I think on appeal, there is a legitimate thing, a legitimate reason.

00:04:55.300 I'm sorry, but that is a blatant misstatement of the law. As she knows, the Supreme Court has

00:05:04.320 specifically held that you have no right to have individuals of your same race on your jury.

00:05:12.620 That's black letter law now. She knows that. Why is she doing this? Why is she saying that? 0.96

00:05:19.660 The same reason we have Jasmine Crockett and these other race hustlers trying to stir up 1.00

00:05:24.620 racial hatred to try to suggest that you have some sort of constitutional right. 1.00

00:05:29.100 If you're a white person to an all white jury. 0.71

00:05:31.200 Oh, great. 0.74

00:05:32.080 Try arguing that to an appellate court. 1.00

00:05:34.720 Well, the same is true if you're a black person. 1.00

00:05:36.580 You're not entitled to an all black jury or Hispanic entitled to all Hispanic. 0.99

00:05:40.400 What the F? 0.97

00:05:41.740 You're not even entitled to a partially black or white jury. 0.76

00:05:45.340 You're not entitled to any racial makeup on your jury.

00:05:48.380 You're just entitled to a fair one. And they can't strike a juror because he or she is black or white or old, any of the protected categories. But you're not entitled to have a jury that matches the racial makeup of yourself or your preference.

00:06:04.980 All right. Now, there were no black individuals on the 12 person jury that tried the Austin Metcalf Carmelo Anthony case, but there were three racial minorities, including Asian and Indian and all of the 18 person jury.

00:06:19.120 like if you, if you include the alternates, uh, of, of, of those six were minorities, six.

00:06:26.220 It's also true that the judge allowed the prosecution to strike three black female

00:06:31.340 jurors, but they said this was due to the women's potential bias as educators, not due to their race.

00:06:38.180 That's the prosecution's only obligation or whichever side is striking the juror. If the 0.96

00:06:42.120 other side says, you know, we want to know why you say this is why, and the judge will make a call.

00:06:46.900 Sometimes the judges do say, I don't buy that. But here they said, we're not striking them due

00:06:52.600 to race. We're striking them because they're educators and we don't want a bunch of teachers

00:06:55.880 on this jury. This happened at a high school. There would be all sorts of reasons why you

00:07:00.680 wouldn't want teachers there. They think they know better. They might know the potential

00:07:04.180 witness list members. I've said before, one of the things they always told us to look out for

00:07:12.520 before we tried cases was you don't want a mini expert going in there on your jury.

00:07:17.420 So, you know, you're, you're trying to case about welding. You don't want an expert welder

00:07:21.100 on your jury. He's going to think he knows better. You want the jury to only accept the

00:07:25.700 evidence you put in front of them, you and your opposing counsel. So you would not want a bunch

00:07:31.420 of educators because they'd have their own thoughts about what the traditions are at the

00:07:35.160 track meets and you know, how this particular thing was likely to work based on their experience.

00:07:40.460 No, no, no. You haven't been certified as an expert. You are being called there to be a juror,

00:07:46.080 an impartial arbiter of facts. So it makes perfect sense to me that either side might not want

00:07:52.680 educators sitting on the jury. And it made perfect sense to this judge as well, who knew that under

00:08:00.500 Supreme Court precedent, when challenged, prosecutors must have a neutral explanation

00:08:04.320 for excluding a juror that has nothing to do with race. That's all. And the judge in Carmelo

00:08:09.420 Anthony's case, John Roach, absolutely believed that's what happened here as we just heard him

00:08:15.520 espouse on his interview with WFAA. Like I told you before, as long as I follow the law,

00:08:22.240 I sleep well at night. And I'm telling you, I follow the law in that case. Did I know

00:08:27.800 what the perception was going to be? Sure. I knew in the back of my mind what the perception was

00:08:33.320 going to be, but I'm not here to satisfy perceptions. I'm not here to satisfy agendas.

00:08:37.760 I'm not here to do any of those things. I'm here to follow the law and I did it to a T

00:08:42.100 and I'm proud of that. Very proud of that. Look, this guy is no nonsense and that's going to come

00:08:48.280 back to help, uh, this verdict and the prosecution, which will be fighting to sustain it on appeal. 0.98

00:08:55.280 This is not some moron who got placed on the bench for politics. You can, you can tell this 0.92

00:09:00.840 guy's a serious jurist and he knew what he was doing. And this is not the first time I'm sure

00:09:07.180 he's had a defendant raise complaints like this. But Sonny Hostin's complaints didn't just stop

00:09:13.460 with a jury, actually. She says she's still not convinced. The misleading's went on for five

00:09:20.180 minutes, okay? I won't subject you to the whole segment, because each moron there of the view 0.99

00:09:24.260 weighed in. I mean, truly, one is dumber than the next. Sonny Hostin's not dumb. This is willful 1.00

00:09:31.700 misinformation on her part, meant to push a racial agenda that she has that ABC has been 0.72

00:09:38.680 allowing for far too long. This is willful misinformation. All right, here she is trying 0.98

00:09:47.060 to convince the national audience at ABC that Carmelo Anthony did act in self-defense. She's

00:09:55.900 not convinced that the jury was right in finding otherwise. Watch. I also think we have to look at

00:10:02.060 self-defense here because there seems to be two systems of justice at play in this country. And

00:10:07.360 there have been for a very long time. I was part of the system. So I understand that. And I believe

00:10:11.300 that to be true. In this case, this young man, you heard him say he put his hands on me and I told him

00:10:17.920 not to this uh the kid that that died and and i have i i have so much empathy for for him and his

00:10:25.500 family's loss that kid was 200 pounds this kid was 130 pounds and so and the other kid was also

00:10:33.040 taller than than he is he was the only black kid under the tent and he this the the the victim here

00:10:40.800 had his twin brother with him who was also a very large person if that if you don't fear for your

00:10:46.760 your life if you weigh 130 pounds i weigh 130 pounds facing somebody that's 200 pounds

00:10:52.420 i would be terrified of that i don't understand why self-defense uh was rejected by this jury

00:10:58.340 he asked him he dared him to put his hands on him anthony dared metcalf to put his hands on him

00:11:09.520 He wasn't afraid. He was provoking him. You dishonest hack. He went in there and intentionally provoked him. One of the many reasons why self-defense was not available to him. Why it did not fly.

00:11:28.040 You cannot claim self-defense when you provoked the action against yourself.

00:11:33.900 You cannot taunt someone, beg someone to lay hands on you, and then when they do so,

00:11:40.600 stab them in the heart and say, oh, gee, I was just defending myself.

00:11:44.060 You provoked it. 0.99

00:11:45.880 The self-defense law understands that.

00:11:48.400 And separately, the jury understands that.

00:11:51.840 But Austin's dad, Jeff Metcalf, who was gagged for the course of this trial, like everybody else, and not able to defend his son, the murder victim, as he was being defamed by people like Jasmine Crockett, he is on a bit small media tour.

00:12:13.440 He's not looking for fame. He's looking to rehabilitate his sweet son's image. He did nothing wrong, nothing. And villains like Sonny Hostin are trying to argue, oh, he's so intimidating with his big frame to 130 pounds. You know what? You know what you wouldn't do, Sonny? You're 130 pounds? Good for you. I'm 120. You know what I wouldn't do?

00:12:34.600 I would not go up to somebody who was 80 pounds more than I was and say, do it.

00:12:41.800 Lay hands on me. Do it. I wouldn't do that. I would understand that there was a chance that

00:12:48.980 he might actually do that. And then if I overreacted in response, I could be heading

00:12:54.220 away to jail for 35 years like Carmelo Anthony is. So stop. All right. And by the way, no,

00:13:01.220 absolutely no accounting made in her little summary there for the fact that this was not a

00:13:05.620 woman being attacked by two hulking football players. This was one track meet participant

00:13:12.800 confronting another track meet participant, provoking him saying, go ahead, lay hands on me.

00:13:19.000 And then when he did so as gently, gently enough that he didn't even knock Carmelo into the guy

00:13:23.740 next to him while they were seated, he got a knife in the heart. And she knows very well

00:13:29.800 that all self-defense, all self-defense has to be proportionate to the threat. You cannot respond

00:13:37.540 to a push with a knife to the heart. That is inherent in the law, which she knows.

00:13:44.040 But back to Austin's father, Jeff Metcalf. So he's been trying to get the truth out there about what

00:13:50.840 actually happened here because it's just the disinformation. I showed you that reporter Mimi

00:13:55.020 from The Breakfast Club, which is a popular show, and just got the dereliction of duty

00:14:01.120 in trying to actually confront, in that situation, Carmelo Anthony's parents with facts,

00:14:06.440 gently, kindly. I understand they're suffering, too. You'd have to handle it gingerly,

00:14:11.580 rather than just allow disinformation to go out to all your listeners. How irresponsible is that?

00:14:16.420 So Austin's dad is on the Will Cain show yesterday and was asked to respond to Sonny

00:14:25.660 Hostin, and he did.

00:14:27.480 Watch.

00:14:28.240 A lot of big voices in the media have talked about this, said, I don't understand.

00:14:33.320 I could play a clip for you, which I'm not going to.

00:14:35.640 Sonny Hostin on The View saying, I don't understand how this couldn't possibly be self-defense.

00:14:39.940 So what is your judgment of all these people in the media that have spoken on the case?

00:14:44.180 Well, they're just like anybody else.

00:14:45.800 they don't know me they don't know hunter austin they don't know carmelo they're looking for their

00:14:51.460 15 minutes of fame or their clickbait or their clicks they're looking to monetize the death of

00:14:58.100 my son i really wish they wouldn't speak about at all because one if that woman said that she has

00:15:04.680 no idea about the facts of the case but she wants to spew her public opinion on a platform that 0.68

00:15:10.680 reaches millions of people every day. Do I have that platform? No, but today I have a little

00:15:16.220 platform to say what I'd like. She is completely wrong. And if they want to take me and call me

00:15:22.160 and ask me to be on the view with them, I would gladly fly, fly me up there. Let me talk to all

00:15:26.900 of you. Oh, do it. I dare you do it. If those women of the view had any spine whatsoever,

00:15:35.560 they'll do it. They'll take him out. This is a grieving dad of an actual murder victim at 17 1.00

00:15:41.560 years old. And he's offering to come on your show and talk truth about what happened in this case.

00:15:48.300 Do it. If you have any heart or spine whatsoever. Joining me now with reaction is Victor Davis

00:15:56.540 Hanson. He's a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution and author of the forthcoming book,

00:16:00.920 the counter-revolution, the fall and rise of Donald Trump and the MAGA movement.

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00:17:14.440 800-4-RELIEF. VDH, great to see you. This is infuriating because as I said,

00:17:22.100 And Sonny Hostin, at least, she's the only lawyer of the group.

00:17:25.680 She knows better.

00:17:26.980 So she's just defaulting to her racial priors, which is an Achilles heel for her on every 0.85

00:17:36.100 story.

00:17:36.900 She sees everything through a racial prism, even now the law. 1.00

00:17:41.140 And it's downright dangerous to the disinformation campaign being unleashed on the American people

00:17:46.520 right now around this case.

00:17:48.600 Yeah, it is.

00:17:49.500 I mean, I think all of us went to high school and we went to track meets and football games

00:17:56.280 and we understood there were two different sides and sometimes there were tents where

00:17:59.980 parents would meet, but no one went to those events with a knife, armed, concealed weapon

00:18:10.200 in your backpack and then no one went to the other side or to a group that he knew might

00:18:16.800 be hostile or might feel that you were uninvited and then when asked to leave would not leave

00:18:22.980 and then almost dared people to force him to leave and then when somebody tapped him took out a weapon

00:18:31.160 and stabbed it not in his shoulder not in his leg but right through his heart and killed him

00:18:37.500 and then left the scene did not say I'm sorry or let's I didn't mean to do it let's see if we can

00:18:43.340 stopped the bleeding just left and then admitted to what he did to law enforcement so it was a

00:18:49.620 pretty open and shut case he went to the track meet armed and he you can make the argument he

00:18:57.640 intended to use that or he wouldn't have brought it if he got into a situation which he created

00:19:01.800 so it was pretty open and shut but I'm not even sure there has been a lot of different

00:19:08.540 conflicted press reports. Some say that he weighed at 160. I don't know what he weighed,

00:19:14.500 but the idea that there was a weight disparity is not really applicable when you push somebody,

00:19:22.440 and then you, I mean, when somebody gently pushes you, and then you take out a weapon.

00:19:26.700 The other thing I never understood, they kept saying it was just a knife. It was just a knife.

00:19:30.880 It wasn't, I heard that for about two weeks. It was just a small pocket. It doesn't really matter,

00:19:36.060 and it's not a murder weapon. A rock can be a murder weapon. A piece of stick can be a murder

00:19:41.280 weapon. It doesn't really matter that it was a knife and not a gun, or the blade was this long

00:19:46.620 or not that long. So they've tried every single ruse because they can't confront the reality

00:19:53.700 that there's two young men. One person is not where he's supposed to be. He's gently asked to

00:19:59.200 leave. He does not want to leave. He wants to make a point. And he came with a weapon.

00:20:04.600 And so I don't know what else to say other than it's a larger commentary on racial relations.

00:20:11.780 Ever since the Obama years, I think the idea was we were very optimistic that race was becoming incidental, not essential to who we all are.

00:20:20.200 And now it just seems to me when affirmative action morphed into diversity, equity, and inclusion, and then the George Floyd, and then it was just a focus, a fixation, addiction to racial disparities.

00:20:35.740 And then it was statute topping and toppling and name changing and get rid of the SAT and a quality of result.

00:20:43.580 And we became obsessed with it.

00:20:46.020 And I think what happened, people got, they were wrong and met a pressure that this was going to be the norm. And then when we had a change of administration, people, whether it was DEI in the Defense Department or the Ivy League and Stanford and other universities reinstating the SAT and coming to their senses, then everybody got very angry in the DEI community.

00:21:08.060 Well, we were in control.

00:21:09.940 We had reinvented America.

00:21:11.840 Now you're doing this to us.

00:21:13.800 So it just further exacerbated.

00:21:16.260 And I don't think it's going to lessen until everybody, according to their station, just says race is incidental to me.

00:21:22.320 I don't care what you call me.

00:21:23.840 Call me any name you want.

00:21:25.620 But I don't really particularly care about race.

00:21:28.900 I'm just going to treat people equally.

00:21:30.700 And if you can't, then you're the racist.

00:21:32.240 and i think i i feel a change in the country on all these issues d the trans issue the dei issue

00:21:41.420 the border issue that everybody and they're looking at europe too and they're just saying

00:21:45.760 this is not sustainable in a democracy to have a return to tribalism and tribal chauvinism

00:21:52.080 it's a pre-civilizational idea and it's not compatible historically with consensual government

00:21:57.900 You know, the historian Thucydides tries to explain why you had Greek city-states and why they are so sophisticated.

00:22:07.140 And one thing he says is, before these emerged, people identified by their tribal affiliations and they were migrant.

00:22:13.960 And what he's trying to say is that when you identify by your ethnic clan or your superficial appearance, you can't do it.

00:22:21.880 It reminds me of when I was in Libya, and I asked somebody,

00:22:25.900 you're the fifth wealthiest oil producer in the world.

00:22:29.660 Why are the roads full of potholes?

00:22:31.600 Why is everything so decrepit?

00:22:33.680 And my Soviet-era minder turned to me, and he said,

00:22:36.520 Mr. Hansen, we hire our first cousin.

00:22:39.420 We hire our first cousin over anybody else.

00:22:42.660 End of story.

00:22:43.840 And he was a Libyan official.

00:22:46.080 What he was saying is that we still, for all of our communism,

00:22:49.620 were ethnically tribal, and that's the bane of civilization. And here we see it coming back

00:22:55.240 again and again. But I think this time, Sonny Haasen doesn't realize that there is a lot of

00:23:01.540 people that are fatigued with it all. And I hope that they understand that, because I don't think

00:23:07.620 we're going to go back to that aberration after George Floyd for four or five years. I just don't

00:23:13.080 think it's going to happen. Well, it's so maddening, Victor, because the way they're talking about this

00:23:18.540 case is as if Austin Metcalfe stabbed and killed Carmelo Anthony. You think Sonny Hauston would be

00:23:24.980 out there arguing it was self-defense if this exact scenario went down, exact scenario, but

00:23:32.100 reversed the races of Anthony and Metcalfe? Zero chance. There would have been riots on the street

00:23:39.020 about this case from the moment it happened. And at this trial, there would have been protests

00:23:44.540 outside to make sure the jury came to a guilty verdict. There would have been celebrations when

00:23:50.400 the guilty verdict was read. There would be absolutely no empathy for the killer because

00:23:55.240 he's white and he killed a black young boy. That's what they would be saying. But because 0.99

00:24:01.040 simply because Austin Metcalf was lighter skinned than Carmelo Anthony, they've changed the entire

00:24:08.520 narrative to make him a villain, not the victim, and to make Carmelo Anthony into this poor,

00:24:16.180 sweet child who just felt threatened by the very large football player whom he clearly provoked

00:24:23.560 and whom he stabbed in the heart, taking his life instantly and giving him zero chance

00:24:29.560 to fight for his own life, Victor. I think also there's a larger context.

00:24:34.020 and when i meant the word fatigue when the juicy small at farce i remember kamala harris said this

00:24:40.980 is a modern day lynching and then we had the ferguson situation hands up don't shoot that

00:24:46.640 was a complete lie that was demonstrably untrue as eric holder's doj proved sunny hostin was part

00:24:53.420 of that i know she was part of that she was on the set at cnn with her little hands i remember

00:24:59.180 that and then Trayvon Martin was not a diminutive little teen he was out looking for trouble and he

00:25:06.540 hit George Zimmerman and that was a one against the other and he was hitting him in the head and

00:25:13.660 they even photoshopped the police file later and they I think CNN doctored the 911 call

00:25:20.680 and so and then we had the Duke lacrosse and then we had going way back to Tawana Brawley but

00:25:26.980 But my point is that they have a predictable pattern.

00:25:29.860 Even the most controversial, George Floyd, it was very clear, whatever Officer Charlton did,

00:25:36.700 at the very instant that this thing hit the news, that you could not say the following.

00:25:42.040 You could not say that he was a prison convict.

00:25:47.340 He had a long rap sheet.

00:25:49.060 He had engaged in a home invasion where one of his friends had put a knife to someone's,

00:25:53.180 a young woman who was defenseless to her abdomen. You could not say that he was in the process

00:26:00.240 of allegedly, and I think convincingly, passing counterfeit currency. You couldn't say that if

00:26:07.780 he wasn't on fentanyl, if he didn't resist arrest, if he had just got in the car as he was asked,

00:26:14.420 none of this would have. That was all taboo. And then we had all of this misdirection that

00:26:19.740 blacks are inordinately killed by unarmed blacks far disproportionate to their you know arrest and 0.84

00:26:27.580 we had the washington post come out and say actually of all the people 11 million people 0.97

00:26:31.840 who are arrested there is no difference in racial proportions of those who are unarmed who were shot

00:26:38.440 by police but i guess what i'm trying to say is that the media the whole race industry they've

00:26:45.060 done it so many times, it's like crying wolf. And it's sad because there may be some case where

00:26:51.760 the circumstances are different, but they don't understand the effect that they're having on the

00:26:56.300 general population. And I don't, I don't confine it, Megan, to the white population. I live in a

00:27:01.600 community that's 95% Hispanic. And I can tell you that on every one of these issues, they are tired

00:27:07.860 of it. They are tired of it. As one person said to me not too long ago, why are these wealthy

00:27:14.300 white people attacking the ICE. Do you know, Victor, that 45% of ICE officers are Mexican

00:27:20.180 American and they're middle class and they're just trying to protect their communities from

00:27:25.040 being overrun by illegals who are in a large number are criminal. So what I'm getting at is

00:27:31.060 that the whole fixation on race and illegal immigration, all of these issues, they're not

00:27:42.080 sustainable and people you know they're the democrat just to get final the democrats should

00:27:49.440 run away with these midterms they always do 38 out of the last 41 midterm the end party in the

00:27:56.900 white house loses seats and i don't know whether i don't know what it is but their popularity is

00:28:03.180 going down down down down the democrats and it's because of the candidates that they are nominating

00:28:08.320 that resonate these issues we're talking about, a Graham Plattner or a Tellurico.

00:28:14.660 And I don't think there's a constituency for it.

00:28:17.920 I really don't.

00:28:18.600 I think people are really angry and they're not talking about it

00:28:21.100 because they understand that it's career-ending or it's dangerous or you get social pressure.

00:28:26.920 But it's not over with the anger about what's happening in the country.

00:28:34.000 It's not just Trump.

00:28:35.220 It's still there. 0.84

00:28:36.260 And people are saying, you look at that picture of the European, it's kind of a worthless parliament.

00:28:42.200 It doesn't have much power.

00:28:43.160 But when you saw two to one vote to end illegal immigration and people were actually in Europe got up and said, send them back, whether you agree with that or not, that's incredible for Europe.

00:28:54.880 And you can see these parties, you can see in the Western Hemisphere, conservative victories in Colombia and Ecuador, Peru, Chile, Argentina, that whole leftist paradigm that we really exported all over the world.

00:29:11.600 The DEI was born here, and that whole idea, whether it was through USAID or whether it was our popular culture, it doesn't work in a consensual society.

00:29:21.440 It just pits people against each other in a tribal fashion, and it's a collectivism.

00:29:26.200 Everybody belongs to a collective.

00:29:27.740 There's no individuality, and I think the universities, I work on a campus, and you should hear, Megan, the professors off the record, off the record.

00:29:36.820 they're all left-wing and they all say after we got rid of the SAT after George Floyd I can't

00:29:42.760 teach my classes because I have to either reduce the workload or I have to introduce new gut courses

00:29:49.400 or I have to do what I did 80 percent A's and that's the biggest problem right now at Yale

00:29:54.540 Harvard 80 percent A's and you say why are you doing that and they say privately I don't want

00:30:01.120 to be statistically accused of being a racist and when particular people don't get the grade

00:30:07.260 that they like and they show a pattern of being into a particular group. And so it's affected

00:30:14.980 everything. It's permeated the entire society, but it didn't have the effect the architects

00:30:19.620 wanted. It's creating a backlash. And now they'll complain about the backlash. I mean,

00:30:27.400 Sonny, Sonny Hostin lives in a mansion. She posted pictures of it herself publicly. So that's how we

00:30:33.880 know it's spectacular. She makes millions of dollars a year. She talks about how her son, 1.00

00:30:39.500 when he started running through the neighborhood, like he was training for track, I think she,

00:30:44.340 she mentioned yesterday that he was on the track team. And, um, she went to the local police

00:30:49.000 station to say, that's my boy. That black boy is my boy. Don't you arrest him for running while

00:30:55.500 black, because I'm sure in her very Tony Westchester village, they arrest all black people 0.94

00:31:01.840 who are running, you know, people who are related to Sonny Hostin. Sure, sure they do. She's not 1.00

00:31:07.600 grateful to a country that helped her son, that allowed her son to go to Harvard. We're still all

00:31:12.980 racists. All the jury is in Texas. Of course, the white people, they're going to be racist. That's

00:31:18.640 why you have to have blacks. And it's not just universities doing this or media. The story you 1.00

00:31:25.200 told reminded me when my daughter was in, I guess it was fourth grade, that's when the Chauvin trial

00:31:34.660 was happening. And we were still in the city in our woke private schools. And her teachers made

00:31:42.780 the class read a Newzilla article about the verdict against Derek Chauvin. It was like a

00:31:49.520 one-page article. So they did. All those fourth grade girls read the article. And then the two

00:31:54.280 teachers said, you know, have like the main and then the assistant. Let's talk about it. And the

00:31:59.040 first girl raised her hand and said, um, Oh no. First, the teacher said there is a major problem

00:32:06.000 in this country, massive problem with cops killing black men. Okay. So that's the premise to start 1.00

00:32:14.580 the discussion. So one girl raised her hand and said, um, wasn't he resisting arrest?

00:32:20.200 and the teacher said they always say that to defend their actions like these evil white cops

00:32:27.380 and then then my daughter raised her hand and said wasn't he on a lot of drugs at the time

00:32:34.580 and the second teacher said this conversation is making me very uncomfortable and i am shutting it

00:32:41.620 down right now of course you know disallowed the discussion amongst a bunch of nine-year-old girls

00:32:48.520 who had been assigned this article. 0.81

00:32:52.340 The girls weren't watching Fox News.

00:32:54.760 They were reading what the teachers gave them.

00:32:56.920 It was in the article,

00:32:57.660 and the girls had some very good questions

00:32:59.960 about the complications of that case,

00:33:02.880 which stood out to even nine-year-old girls immediately.

00:33:06.240 And rather than allowing them to flesh it out,

00:33:09.000 it was shut down as verboden.

00:33:11.960 I mean, that in a nutshell

00:33:13.100 is what was wrong with those schools

00:33:15.160 and what is wrong with universities today

00:33:17.140 and what leads to a person like Sonny Hostin being allowed a national perch, notwithstanding

00:33:24.180 her racial blindness.

00:33:26.320 I think everybody, I think you're right. 0.88

00:33:28.820 I think people got to realize this is not a grassroots phenomenon among poor blacks

00:33:34.060 or middle class blacks.

00:33:35.360 This is a top down media, academics, professors, K through 12, who create these ideologies 0.91

00:33:43.300 and then it filters down.

00:33:44.940 So, Kamala Anthony, all he knows is that if he goes to that track meet, and he has a knife, and he goes where he's not supposed to be, and he gets in an altercation, the larger discourse is going to allow him to make an argument, or he won't be held accountable.

00:34:04.800 In other words, DEI takes away all deterrent fears.

00:34:08.200 It just says, whatever happens to you, you're going to play this race card, and you're going to get an exception.

00:34:14.720 And they think that because it's all over the popular media.

00:34:20.020 And, Victor, if I forgive the interruption, but it also teaches racial grievance in the first place.

00:34:25.920 It does.

00:34:26.520 It teaches it at the very beginning, and it teaches it all through the university.

00:34:32.520 And, you know, it's one reason why people say, why are the universities in such failures?

00:34:39.640 And it's an act of commission and omission.

00:34:41.860 they teach so much of this pop psychology racial stuff dash studies courses that these kids come 0.97

00:34:50.220 out ignorant and arrogant and they don't really have skills especially in the social sciences 0.96

00:34:55.640 and the humanities but they have these ideologies that have been drummed into them and then they 0.99

00:35:00.420 reach the real world and the real world you don't go across into an opposing team's private tent

00:35:09.060 and you don't dare somebody who's bigger than you, and you don't come armed, but that's what

00:35:15.240 you would do if you filtered down this message from elites. That's why I mentioned the ICE.

00:35:20.700 All these very wealthy, and I see it all when I go to work in Palo Alto or Menlo Park, you see

00:35:27.240 all these signs and protests about immigrants. They're all very, very wealthy people. And not

00:35:32.880 too long ago, I saw one when I was walking on campus, and I said to her, you should come to

00:35:38.460 where I live. And I live one quarter mile from Serenios, Norteños, and M13 people. 1.00

00:35:45.360 And most of them are not here legally. And you should see what happens when that occurs. You 1.00

00:35:51.380 should try to go to a public social welfare dialysis clinic or an ER and what happens to 1.00

00:35:58.460 a poor Mexican-American citizen when all of a sudden it's flooded with people who speak 0.94

00:36:03.700 mixoteca baja a language that's not even spanish in their communities and they don't have the

00:36:10.180 resources but this ideology from very wealthy privileged people has done so much harm and

00:36:17.960 that's what the real issue is so all those people on the view are multi-millionaires and they talk

00:36:23.320 as if they're socialists on the barricades but they're never subject to the consequences of

00:36:27.840 their own ideology none of them they talk about crime and this but they all have security and

00:36:33.340 they all have enough money they're not worried about california taxes they're all and i think

00:36:39.220 people in the west are seeing that it's a phenomenon that's that can't go on because if it

00:36:45.380 goes on the system that we you know we live in a private property market capitalism consensual

00:36:52.920 society that's pluralistic and if you attack that long enough and you try to to undermine it

00:37:01.040 and history is not very forgiving and i think all of us whatever your politics are right now you

00:37:07.580 think if i identify by my tribal affinity or my gender or my sexual orientation and that's my

00:37:13.900 primary identification then i'm anti-civilizational i'm a retrograde tribalist and people are going to

00:37:22.200 have a legitimate objection to what i'm doing and i think that's where we are now as a nation

00:37:27.160 and we're saying that this goes on, we can't sustain ourselves.

00:37:31.000 It's kind of like 1850.

00:37:31.920 We're sick of it.

00:37:33.120 1850, people said, we tried to deal with slavery.

00:37:38.960 We had it in the Declaration of Independence.

00:37:41.660 Thomas Jefferson was censored.

00:37:43.100 All men are created equally. 0.53

00:37:44.320 And then we said we can't deal with it. 0.99

00:37:46.620 And you could see why, because the 13 colonies would have split apart immediately.

00:37:51.500 We put it off long enough, and this is not sustainable.

00:37:54.700 And they had that 700,000 people killed.

00:37:58.740 And I think right now it's just a force multiplier, the blue state model, this whole therapeutic stuff, the government fraud.

00:38:06.420 But all of this emphasis on tribalism and open borders and people are saying this doesn't work, you people.

00:38:13.540 I have to say, I look at what's happening because this Carmelo Anthony trial and the reaction to it has been so insane that it's just a very stark reminder that the left has not abandoned these radical notions about the role race plays in any and all aspects of society.

00:38:34.120 And it makes me so angry because I feel like no one rioted when a 17-year-old black boy shoved a knife in the heart of a 17-year-old white boy.

00:38:49.080 No whites were out there chanting white lives matter and, you know, saying the system is set up against whites and so on.

00:38:57.560 And, you know, that there has been a massive change in the bias. 0.82

00:39:02.600 Try growing up a white boy today versus a black girl. 0.99

00:39:07.140 All the advantages are with the latter in today's day and age when it comes to getting 1.00

00:39:10.900 into universities and getting jobs and so on.

00:39:13.620 Nobody was raising that.

00:39:14.960 People just said, what happened in this case?

00:39:18.120 Can we make sure this kid gets a fair trial and that it's fair to the decedent as well?

00:39:22.660 That's what happened.

00:39:23.740 And then the jury came to its verdict.

00:39:25.620 But now there's this activist class that's acting as though the races are reversed and

00:39:31.220 somehow white people did something terrible to a black boy and that's just not what happened no

00:39:37.040 like that's the kind of stuff that's going to radicalize people like it's not just everyone

00:39:41.680 behaved themselves no one made this racial don't make this racial because it doesn't end well

00:39:46.540 for you race agitators and the same thing happened with the ukrainian the poor girl that was murdered

00:39:52.060 her throat cut on the subway you saw this murderer i heard then he cut her throat and then four five

00:39:59.660 people walked right over her as she was dying. They didn't lend any assistance. And then it was

00:40:06.100 disputed what he said. But I listened to the tape dozens of times. It seems like he said,

00:40:11.320 I got the bit blank something, whites. And nobody rioted. Nobody said,

00:40:18.040 wow, this African-American just preyed on this girl. What we heard was from the media, 0.83

00:40:24.560 oh, you have to be socially aware. She was looking at her. She was fixated on her phone.

00:40:29.500 She wasn't aware of the circumstances in which she was in.

00:40:32.820 What were the circumstances in which she was in?

00:40:34.720 She just wanted to take a subway ride home.

00:40:37.260 And if she was attacked by somebody and there were five people right behind him,

00:40:41.760 wouldn't somebody come to her aid?

00:40:44.020 Maybe they could stop him or, you know, hold him for police.

00:40:47.980 But they just tiptoed around her as she died and she bled out.

00:40:52.000 It was horrific.

00:40:52.900 And when you add what was going on in Europe, you know, with Henry Nowak and in Bristol,

00:40:57.380 So all of these things in the Western world are building, building, building, building.

00:41:02.120 And it's really important that they get vented before people feel frustrated and they have no avenues of correction. 0.95

00:41:10.060 So I think it's important to remind ourselves that these lunatics, Sonny Hauston does not speak for black people. 0.97

00:41:16.580 No, she doesn't. 0.98

00:41:17.980 Nor does Jasmine Crockett.

00:41:20.000 I mean, it's just it there. 1.00

00:41:22.260 She's just a terrible representative.

00:41:23.740 ABC really needs to reconsider.

00:41:25.300 I work at the Hoover Institution, and there's four African American people who were associated with it. Tom Sold, Shelby Steele, Condi Rice, and Kyron Skinner, and they were the best scholars there. I mean, it has nothing to do with black people generically.

00:41:42.720 It's a group of very well-off, educated, supposedly educated elites that are drumming this up among the lower classes. 0.98

00:41:54.980 And they're using, actually, the criminal element, they're using that element to divide us and then to get spoils from society. 0.94

00:42:03.920 And I feel bad because the people who are really warning us have been black intellectuals on the conservative side, what was going on. 0.96

00:42:12.220 And Tom Soule was, he was, life was threatened. 1.00

00:42:15.100 We had to have a, you know, all of his mail had to be examined.

00:42:18.120 But all those threats were coming from people on the left.

00:42:23.120 And Shelby Steele was the same thing.

00:42:26.560 He's amazing.

00:42:27.820 And his son Eli's awesome, too.

00:42:29.300 Yeah.

00:42:29.640 And not to mention Glenn Lowry.

00:42:31.900 I mean, there's just Jason Reilly's spectacular over at the Wall Street Journal on these issues.

00:42:36.200 Like, there's a long list who they don't buy into this nonsense.

00:42:39.440 It's normal people who aren't in the media, too. 0.80

00:42:42.100 Don't buy into this nonsense, black or white. 0.95

00:42:44.040 But you're right.

00:42:44.700 It's these elites, these leftist elites who are just spewing their bile and trying to create race riots or just hatred that they'll never have to deal with.

00:42:54.500 As you point out, with their guards and in their mansions and their fancy cars driven by chauffeurs, they'll never have to deal with it.

00:43:01.900 I want to keep going because there's—

00:43:03.140 I just would say one last thing.

00:43:04.820 This is not new.

00:43:05.600 The people who were behind the Bolshevik Revolution, Lenin and other people, people like Karl Marx, he was an elite.

00:43:13.180 Lenin was an elite.

00:43:13.960 The people who were behind the French Revolution, the Jacobins, the Rose Pierre brother, they were all elites.

00:43:19.400 The people behind the Spanish Revolution, they were the anarchists and the communists, they were all elites.

00:43:24.800 It's always the way it is.

00:43:26.660 It's a bunch of elite.

00:43:27.920 Mondami, look at him.

00:43:29.660 He's an elite.

00:43:30.640 His parents, an endowed professor, a subsidized filmmaker.

00:43:34.220 he gives us lectures about settler colonialism and you think wait a minute you were from the

00:43:39.620 one percent population in uganda that had 65 percent of the economic output of that country

00:43:45.880 and no one ever said that you were a settler account you came here to our country what if we

00:43:50.860 said you're a settler colonialist you and your family in the indian community how would you like

00:43:55.320 that then he says i'm going to go after whiter neighborhoods that are affluent well then if you

00:44:00.100 should get your data of all ethnic groups in the united states indian americans are the most

00:44:05.720 affluent so he should have said i'm going after indian american communities they have too much

00:44:10.860 money statistically but so what i'm getting at is when they this is an elite driven stuff aoc

00:44:18.000 jasmine crockett uh even ilian omar nobody ever says to ilian omar is it true that your father

00:44:25.660 was a colonel in Barid Saeed's corrupt government that orchestrated a genocide, and the most, not

00:44:32.440 all, but many, or if not most, of the refugees that came out were from the Saeed government that

00:44:38.900 was overthrown for its crimes in the Somali-Somaliland wars. Nobody ever says that, and maybe

00:44:45.400 we shouldn't, but she sure does about other people. She's always checking everybody's background and

00:44:51.720 all of these oppressions and isms and ologies, but no one ever says, well, wait a minute,

00:44:56.180 the United States welcomed in 85,000 refugees from Somalia and never asked them to what degree

00:45:03.260 are you involved with this government that committed genocide? Well, and also didn't ask 0.66

00:45:09.020 them about all the massive fraud that they would continue to commit on us. I mean, that's the thing

00:45:12.740 is like, we still let you come in. If only you had not defrauded us, you probably wouldn't be

00:45:17.740 having the criminal troubles you're having now, but you're not allowed to come into our country

00:45:20.960 and fleece our people and commit crimes.

00:45:23.280 All right, wait, I want to keep going.

00:45:24.960 I've got to talk to you about this, okay?

00:45:26.840 Because we're on the subject of elite university people

00:45:29.080 who are far left and in control of the narratives

00:45:32.540 that our children learn at every level.

00:45:34.460 And that leads me to who was at

00:45:36.640 Barack Obama's presidential library opening.

00:45:40.940 But we've been covering this

00:45:42.260 and I didn't see this news until today.

00:45:45.260 In the third row,

00:45:46.700 bill airs and his wife bernardine dorn they showed up at barack obama's library opening

00:45:57.280 this is the terrorist that is being referenced when people say barack obama used to pal around

00:46:04.860 with terrorists bernardine dorn and bill airs who are partners who um were founders of the weather

00:46:13.720 Underground back in the 1970s, which was bombing federal buildings. For those of you who are

00:46:19.860 young and don't know about this, I'm just going to give you a clip from a documentary on the

00:46:27.600 Weather Underground, and it's got a young Bill Ayers in it. Okay, here it is.

00:46:35.260 Terry, more than probably anyone else, represented the view that it was too late for

00:46:41.020 any kind of reconciliation inside this country and that the best that we could do was to

00:46:48.920 bring about a catastrophic series of actions. They had decided to set off the bomb at a

00:46:59.320 non-commissioned officer's dance at Fort Dix. The idea being that there are no innocent

00:47:07.460 in this war of aggression. What we wanted to do here was deliver

00:47:13.720 the most horrific hit that the United States government had ever suffered on its territory.

00:47:23.340 So that man, one day when I was at Fox News, would stroll in 2014 and give me an interview.

00:47:34.880 Bill Ayers.

00:47:35.340 It was a crazy, it was like one of the craziest moments of my life, Victor.

00:47:39.240 We got him to Fox News.

00:47:40.540 He came to the belly of the beast.

00:47:41.840 We'd been ripping on him nonstop when Barack Obama had run for president.

00:47:45.920 Barack won anyway.

00:47:47.140 And he agreed to do an interview with me.

00:47:49.220 It was insane.

00:47:51.040 And my assistant, Abigail Finan, said, somebody said, what'd you do today?

00:47:55.360 She said, I babysat a terrorist in the basement of the Fox News building because we didn't

00:47:59.500 want him to flee.

00:48:00.580 We didn't want him to realize, wait, what am I doing here?

00:48:03.020 This is a bad idea.

00:48:03.800 So he came on the show. It was a very challenging interview, but very fascinating. And here's just

00:48:09.520 a little bit of it. Okay. Just cut a quick soundbite. Watch. How many bombings are you

00:48:14.200 responsible for? Weather Underground, I think, took credit for just slightly over 20. It might

00:48:18.600 me personally. I've never talked about it, never will. Let me just tell you what I hear when I

00:48:22.560 hear that. I hear you saying you sound like, with respect, Osama bin Laden. While Underground, 0.65

00:48:28.080 you stole, you lied, you hid, right? Any disagreement? You stole. Onward, yes. You did. You wrote

00:48:38.080 about it in your book. We stole ID. You stole purses, you stole wallets, stole money. Some.

00:48:44.560 You ripped off dead babies' identities. Right. And yet, the violence continued. Just because 0.99

00:48:50.240 you went underground didn't mean the violence stopped. What violence? March 1st, 1971, you

00:48:54.860 bomb the U.S. Capitol. May 19, 1972, you bombed the Pentagon. January 29, 1975, you bombed the

00:49:01.200 State Department. That's what I mean by violence. What would it take to make you bomb this country

00:49:05.380 again? I can't completely say no. I would never, ever rise up in opposition in a very militant

00:49:11.120 and serious way. I can't say I wouldn't. I doubt it. That's who went to Barack Obama's library

00:49:17.820 opening in the third row. He wound up teaching at the University of Illinois. His wife, who was

00:49:22.440 just as involved as he was in the weather underground, teaching at Northwestern Law

00:49:26.680 School, Victor, third row. Everything we've said about Barack Obama was true. He's as radical as

00:49:34.460 they come. He just presents as this moderate, avuncular kind of guy. Yeah, he does. And he

00:49:39.780 says in his, I mean, it was reported he wrote, if he did write the whole thing, his memoir in

00:49:44.880 Bill Ayers' house. He said that. And then what was even crazier was at that speech, I thought to

00:49:51.980 myself here they were he has four mansions at the chicago mansion i think it's almost worth two

00:49:56.580 million colorama hawaii martha's vineyard they're worth 70 to 100 million and what are they going

00:50:03.220 to say and the first thing one of the first thing is he had to give us a little spin on the

00:50:07.120 declaration of independence that we were flawed and i thought you know anything still bitter yeah

00:50:12.300 he didn't understand anything that that had been a big discussion that jefferson said all men are

00:50:17.420 created equal and we're going to try to mention slavery even though he was a slave owner and five

00:50:21.940 Southerners, five of the 13 colonies were, you know, slave money. Not that it was de facto

00:50:28.840 outlawed, although there was some in the North. But they all said, if we try to eliminate slavery

00:50:36.500 right now, we won't have a union. The British will win because they'll pick us off one by one. 0.85

00:50:41.020 And we're going to have to deal with this issue, but let's just be united for now. 0.92

00:50:44.580 And that was always an issue, always. Every year they fought about it. And finally, 700,000. But

00:50:51.040 I mean, all the context is gone.

00:50:53.500 He didn't mention any of that.

00:50:55.200 And then when Michelle got in, she said he was dazzling brilliant.

00:50:58.780 And she listed three things, his Nobel Prize, and then she said Obamacare, and then all of the unity.

00:51:05.940 And I thought, that's all a lie.

00:51:07.220 What are you going to have in that $850 million flack tower?

00:51:11.920 What are you going to have inside?

00:51:13.480 Where are the accomplishments or the legislation?

00:51:17.380 I can't think of any other than he tore us apart.

00:51:20.260 But he wasn't he was divisive at the beginning.

00:51:23.280 Yes.

00:51:23.600 But remember the middle, the beer, divisive at the end and post presidency.

00:51:28.040 Standby.

00:51:28.320 I want to continue this, but I've got to take a quick break.

00:51:30.120 There is more to do on this subject and more.

00:51:32.740 We will be right back.

00:51:33.520 VDH, thankfully, stays with us.

00:51:35.800 Don't go away.

00:51:37.000 You might already own a firearm, but what if you could start with less lethal methods

00:51:41.180 to avoid the financial and mental repercussions of pulling the trigger of a loaded gun?

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00:54:32.440 1980, you and Bernadine Dorn resurfaced,

00:54:34.520 and when she turned herself in,

00:54:36.220 Bernadine Dorn promised to spend her energy organizing

00:54:38.940 to defeat the American Empire.

00:54:42.020 And within a year of that, October 20, 1981, was a triple homicide. 0.90

00:54:46.860 Kathy Boudin learned some of her very criminal tactics 0.96

00:54:50.920 while she was with her underground. 0.77

00:54:52.520 She was in the townhouse that exploded when that bomb went off, wasn't she?

00:54:55.780 You adopted her child.

00:54:57.000 She's a wonderful person.

00:54:58.160 Your wife, Bernadine Dorn, was asked to cooperate in that investigation.

00:55:02.060 That's right.

00:55:02.680 She refused.

00:55:03.760 Absolutely.

00:55:04.340 She spent seven months in jail because she refused to help the police in their investigation. 1.00

00:55:07.280 Well, she refused to speak to a grand jury. That's quite different.

00:55:10.040 Why would she do that, sir?

00:55:11.140 Nine children lost their fathers that day.

00:55:14.100 I agree with you. 0.65

00:55:14.640 Why didn't your wife help? 0.99

00:55:16.360 Grand juries are a terrible overreach of the U.S. government.

00:55:19.560 She said about the Charles Manson murders of a pregnant woman and six others, 0.92

00:55:24.400 quote, offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives and then eating a meal in the same room. 0.96

00:55:30.400 Far out. The weathermen digged Charles Manson. 0.99

00:55:33.600 This is your sweetheart?

00:55:34.500 No, no, no.

00:55:34.900 This is your soulmate?

00:55:35.700 Your wife miraculously got a job teaching law or teaching at Northwestern University Law.

00:55:40.660 Successfully. Absolutely. Which is amazing. They must be offering classes and what you can learn

00:55:44.900 from your future clients. But are you surprised that you got those job offers, you and she?

00:55:50.020 Not really. I mean, she was on the FBI's 10 most wanted list.

00:55:53.180 I know. So was Angela Davis. And, you know, a lot of great people have been on that list.

00:56:00.600 Okay. Welcome back to The Megyn Kelly Show. Back with me now, Victor Davis Hanson. He's

00:56:05.280 author of the forthcoming book, The Counter-Revolution, The Fall and Rise of Donald

00:56:10.180 Trump and the MAGA Movement. So here's just one more thing for you on Bill Ayers,

00:56:16.260 who was at Barack Obama's presidential library opening, along with his wife, Bernadine Dorn,

00:56:22.420 another domestic terrorist affiliated with the Weather Underground, both of whom wound up in

00:56:27.320 academia. Axios is the one, that's where I learned that Ayers and Dorn were at Obama's.

00:56:34.520 thing. All Obama's presidency, his campaign, he distanced himself. Oh no, I hardly knew him. What

00:56:39.100 do you mean? Bill who? No, no, no. Fox news is crazy saying I launched my campaign in his living

00:56:43.760 room. It was all true. That's why he's there as the bookend on the, on both ends of Barack Obama's

00:56:50.020 presidency. And, uh, here's how Axios, I mean, today is trying to spin this, this thing. Uh,

00:56:56.520 he, they write in 1995, they meaning, uh, Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dorn, how the casual party

00:57:02.460 at their house to introduce friends to a skinny kid with a funny name named Barack Obama. That

00:57:08.120 was a quote. Then Axios writes, that was enough for Republican operatives to seize upon when

00:57:16.000 Obama ran for president in 2008. They argued Obama had ties to a man they described as a

00:57:20.960 former domestic terrorist. That's 100 percent true, even though the support came nearly 30 0.91

00:57:26.260 years after the weather underground. You tell me, Victor, did he sound apologetic and regretful

00:57:31.260 in that interview, as I just played to you, which he did just a couple years ago.

00:57:35.600 He was smiling. He was smiling. It reminds me, Megan, do you remember that when Obama was trying

00:57:41.780 to convince the country that he was a man of faith and mainstream, he said that he was going

00:57:48.920 to church at the Trinity Church, and the Suntime interviewer asked, well, how often do you go? And

00:57:53.840 he said, I'm there every Sunday. And then as soon as we got that clip from Reverend Wright,

00:57:58.460 chickens coming home to roost uh no no god uh bless america god blank blank america then all

00:58:05.900 of a sudden he was wayward and he had bragged that he was married his kids were baptized

00:58:10.280 so his whole his whole role was trying to disguise as long to get elected remember the red

00:58:17.320 we are no red states we are no blue state 2004 and as soon as he got in there we had the beer

00:58:22.860 summit and all of that stuff. It just kept going on. Trayvon, the kid, the son that I never had,

00:58:28.960 looked like me, et cetera, et cetera. And now he's done with it and he can feel liberated again.

00:58:35.140 And that's why he invited them. And again, Bill Ayers is a son, as I remember, a very wealthy

00:58:42.100 utility executive raised like Obama. Obama said he was lower middle class. He went to a prep school,

00:58:49.300 his grandmother, who was a very wonderful person who paid for his education, worked her way up to

00:58:56.180 be a bank executive. Of course, she was rewarded by being called a typical white person. But 0.65

00:59:01.800 all of these people are elites. They are either upper middle class or they're very, very wealthy.

00:59:09.940 And America's never had a mainstream socialist movement. I think the greatest vote giver was

00:59:18.460 Eugene Debs, right, in 1920. He ran for president five times as a socialist. Finally, they put him

00:59:24.160 in jail, and he got a million votes. That was it. So, the people themselves have never wanted to be

00:59:30.940 common. And if Mondami and these new socialists have support, I guarantee you it's coming from

00:59:37.720 people who went to college and were imbued with all this stuff, but it's not coming from

00:59:42.800 electricians or plumbers or any of those people. Totally agree. Yeah. It's crazy to see these

00:59:49.600 clips come back and to see Axios trying to whitewash his history and to see Barack Obama

00:59:55.120 give it up. He gave it up. He's been denying the relationship with this guy, downplaying it

01:00:02.240 for years. Third row. OK, third row. We were right all along. The Obamas lie. If their lips are

01:00:11.240 moving, they're lying. The only difference is nobody will call them out on it in the mainstream

01:00:16.360 media. Axios won't call them out. The others won't call them out. There's too obsessed with

01:00:21.240 orange man bad and Trump's alleged lies. As Sean Hannity once put it to me, Trump's problem is not

01:00:26.800 that he lies. It's that he tells the truth. I don't know why it's Trump in trouble. Remember

01:00:32.460 Reverend Wright was shut out during the eight years and they asked him, well, why haven't you

01:00:37.120 seen obama and he said dim jews don't let me see him that was a that's a direct literal quote but

01:00:42.460 where i don't know what happened to him he had a very beautiful home that he he had all it was

01:00:49.220 all this race radical stuff it's all it's very cynical bill ayers is still privileged and they

01:00:56.540 they do a lot of damage but as you pointed out it's the middle class the officers who were killed

01:01:01.940 their children they all that that's their victims always and uh that's what's sad when all of these

01:01:09.380 race hustlers gin up all this racial animosity then it's some black electrician that then somebody

01:01:15.960 comes up to him and said well al sharpton all that it's it's an elite driven a thing and uh 0.78

01:01:23.440 or or the black pilot you know this is the point charlie kirk was trying to make the black pilot

01:01:28.260 who is 100% qualified and out hustled everybody else to get this job, who gets a second glance

01:01:34.640 from somebody who's flying United because they understand that airline has a policy of requiring

01:01:40.520 at least 50% DEI hires, or it's not all black, but like women and whatever, like minority groups,

01:01:48.040 alleged minority groups. That's the point Charlie was making that so many on the left use against

01:01:53.360 him now to say he was a racist. He, what he was saying, I don't like feeling that way. Get rid of

01:01:57.260 DEI, then we'd look at everybody in their positions and know there's only one reason

01:02:01.620 they got there, skills, qualifications.

01:02:03.660 I used to go, for 15 years, Tom Soule and I had lunch twice a month, and he once said

01:02:10.040 something really profound.

01:02:11.180 It seemed obvious, but the way he put it was very profound.

01:02:14.300 He said, I don't, as a matter of my own behavior, I don't trust people that have not gone through

01:02:20.640 the meritocratic process.

01:02:22.300 And I said, well, explain.

01:02:23.380 He said, you know, when I was growing up in the 1950s, you could not, if you were black, it was very hard to get into medical school.

01:02:31.020 So he said, if you got through medical school, you had to be 110%.

01:02:35.120 And he wasn't defending that.

01:02:37.160 It should have been, you know, no edge either way.

01:02:39.680 But what he was saying is there was an institutionalized bias. 0.63

01:02:42.460 So when he went to doctors, he deliberately went to black doctors, not because he was black, but because they had to be superb. 0.80

01:02:49.500 There was no, you know, old boys network or preference. 0.54

01:02:52.060 I love that.

01:02:52.840 And then he said, and then they reversed it.

01:02:55.760 So then they allowed you to have, I think he said, 250 points on the MCAT advantage and all this.

01:03:02.340 So he said, now I kind of, he was kind of laughing, but he was half serious.

01:03:07.000 He said, I kind of go to Asian Americans because they're overrepresented and they're always discriminated against.

01:03:14.400 And you have to be the best of the best of the best.

01:03:17.820 And he said, it's never proven me wrong.

01:03:20.100 and what it was it was just that was his you know he could just simplify things in truisms that were

01:03:26.120 not truisms they were really profound but uh he had a good point you're so lucky to have had that

01:03:32.480 victor i'm so jealous he's a wonderful he's a wonderful person he really was so was shelby

01:03:37.020 steel they were my two best friends at hoover they and they still are yeah you have good taste

01:03:44.160 all right wait let's keep going i've got another one for you uh i don't want to exhaust you because

01:03:48.140 I know you're still recovering from a very serious illness, but you look great and you sound great.

01:03:53.820 The person who tried to assassinate Justice Kavanaugh has been given an eight-year prison sentence.

01:04:05.580 We knew this.

01:04:06.320 That's kind of old news.

01:04:07.780 His name is Nicholas Roski.

01:04:10.460 But part of the reason why Nicholas only got an eight-year sentence for trying to assassinate

01:04:16.220 a sitting Supreme Court justice to stop him from ruling on the Dobbs case, which overturned

01:04:22.840 Roe v. Wade, is that Nicholas is now Sophie, and the sentencing judge factored that in

01:04:31.840 to her decision.

01:04:33.720 Her name is Judge Deborah Boardman.

01:04:36.900 She's a Biden appointee, and she specifically said, she's a former public defender, and she

01:04:42.860 specifically said that she was taking Roski's oh-so-convenient newfound transgender status

01:04:50.240 into account. Quote, I take into consideration the conditions of pretrial confinement and the

01:04:55.740 fact that she is a transgender woman, meaning a man, and will be sent to a male-only Bureau of 0.53

01:05:03.760 prison's facility. The judge questioned whether Roski would receive adequate mental health

01:05:09.220 treatment in federal prison, saying, quote, let's not hide the fact that there's an executive order

01:05:14.160 on this specific topic. She was annoyed that Trump is making prisons great again with men

01:05:21.540 staying with the men and women staying with the women. So to its credit, the DOJ did something it

01:05:28.340 rarely does on sentencing, it appealed. It appealed to the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals

01:05:34.460 saying this was such a downward deviation from the federal sentencing guidelines that it has to be

01:05:42.440 taken up, that normally this person would have gotten a few decades in prison. And because

01:05:50.660 he now says he's a she he only gets eight years in prison this is absolute madness and they're 0.80

01:06:00.540 hashing it out they say it's yeah 22 years below the bottom of what the guidelines recommended 0.54

01:06:07.040 for this guy so the minimum sentence the guidelines recommended was 30 years this guy got eight now

01:06:13.980 the judge said well he turned himself in the prosecution said he did that because he saw two

01:06:19.100 marshals standing outside of justice Kavanaugh's house and knew that he was about to get caught.

01:06:24.100 And this judge, of course, you're not gonna be surprised to hear a federal public defender,

01:06:27.500 a former public defender didn't buy the prosecution's arguments that, Oh gee,

01:06:32.800 what a good person. Uh, he turned himself in, or no, she turned herself in. And this is,

01:06:39.380 this guy was a man when he did it. Uh, like they all suddenly become female when they're facing 0.99

01:06:44.460 prison but whatever um and now it also turns out that this is a furry he's a he's a furry in

01:06:51.020 addition to all of his other issues reports the daily wire and i think uh this is actually a great

01:06:57.660 a great move by the doj even though they're with the fourth circuit which used to be more

01:07:02.340 conservative but now has a bunch of libs on it um they have to challenge this kind of nonsense

01:07:07.080 did they not yeah they do and it's part of a larger trend where the left has been at they

01:07:13.200 When I was growing up, there was the Warren Court, and they loved, they worshipped the Supreme Court.

01:07:18.940 They said, you know what, the legislature, the Senate and the House are just retrograde,

01:07:23.200 and thank God for the Warren Court.

01:07:26.840 Now they despise it because it has a conservative, but they do things that no one on the right would ever do.

01:07:33.040 I mean, part of this was Chuck Schumer going out in front of the doors of the Supreme Court while it was in session

01:07:39.740 and saying, Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, you sowed the wind, you're going to reap the whirlwind.

01:07:46.040 You don't know what's going to hit you.

01:07:48.240 A few months later, all these people started showing up.

01:07:51.940 And that is, I think, a misdemeanor, if not a felony in some cases,

01:07:54.920 to show up and try to affect a Supreme Court case at a justice's home.

01:07:59.420 But nobody was indicted for that at all.

01:08:02.480 And then when you look at the way the hearings have gone with Clarence Thomas,

01:08:06.960 That was just an abject character assassination.

01:08:10.040 Kavanaugh, we know now, the whole thing was a joke, Susan Blasey Ford.

01:08:13.840 It was all nothing to it.

01:08:15.920 Christine. 0.95

01:08:16.480 Yeah, Molly Hemingway demolished that.

01:08:20.080 So it's just that, and now we hear, of course, even the character assassination, the threats to the justices, the leaking about the Dobbs case, all of that is still not enough.

01:08:33.340 And we're told that this new Democratic Socialist Party, they're going to pack the court along with, they think they're going to get rid of the Electoral College by the National Voters Compact.

01:08:42.800 They're going to bring in two states, they say, Puerto Rico and make Washington, D.C. a state.

01:08:47.740 They're going to, if they are still in the minority, they're going to try to, I don't know, eliminate the filibuster.

01:08:55.560 They won't be able to do that.

01:08:56.780 And now we're even talking, the latest thing is they want to, I think one of the socialist candidates for House wants to turn the Senate into the House.

01:09:07.240 In other words, it's not fair that senators represent states rather than demography, and they want them to be, you know, popular, 20 senators in California, zero in Wyoming, that kind of stuff.

01:09:18.920 So they want to, what I'm getting at is they know they're.

01:09:21.740 You know who they don't want to make a state, Victor? Cuba.

01:09:24.360 No.

01:09:24.600 They don't want Cuba to join as our 51st state.

01:09:27.780 No.

01:09:28.140 And the thing is that their agenda does not appeal to people.

01:09:33.080 They know that on the border, on crime, on draw, any of that doesn't appeal.

01:09:39.580 And we hear that right out of the mouth of Bill Ayers.

01:09:41.740 So they always want to change the system.

01:09:44.040 They always want to change the system or they want to alter the demography.

01:09:47.160 you know when they opened the border they wrote actually wrote books that said the new democratic

01:09:54.060 majority are uh demography is destiny that was and then as soon as anybody conservative said

01:09:59.840 yeah you're right they said you're racist you're nativist you're you buy into the great racial

01:10:05.840 theory and all this stuff but that's what they were doing with the 10 000 people a day

01:10:10.940 and it's it's all gets back to the idea they don't have a resonant message that nobody really

01:10:15.880 it's contrary to human nature, the communist socialist message. And so they're always trying

01:10:21.280 to finagle a system or change it. And, um, yeah, I mean, anything will do. They tell us we're not

01:10:28.320 allowed. I mean, for years on YouTube, you couldn't say that transgenderism was a mental 0.56

01:10:33.900 illness. They, they would strike it, strike your video. You could get a de-platformed or 0.96

01:10:38.780 demonetized. Now this guy is using his gender dysphoria as part of the mental illness that 0.92

01:10:47.240 allows him a lower sentence. He's trying to say, I'm not a well person. I have gender dysphoria. 0.58

01:10:53.120 I have depression. Okay. Depression is not a reason to get out of a severe sentence.

01:11:01.000 And by the way, so this is what, how he describes himself. He put out a classified ad calling

01:11:06.440 himself, a male to female pet for owner. I want to wear nothing but a collar, ears, and tail plug

01:11:15.100 and communicate only through my body what I want. He wrote, and another thing, his play partners,

01:11:23.880 quote, pretty kinky, have a fetish account and everything. If you are not a cis man, 0.77

01:11:30.020 chances are I am interested in playing with you. This is his person. So instead of being treated as 0.58

01:11:35.440 a very bizarre, disturbed, but sane person who should be sentenced per the guidelines

01:11:42.460 on trying to assassinate somebody. This radically left judge, Biden appointee,

01:11:47.620 decided to play the small violin for him. And the New York Times assisted back to the media

01:11:53.360 and their complicity. Here's what the New York Times described as Roski, a man, again,

01:12:02.040 was in court on sentencing day. They use Ms. I refuse to use this. I'm going to change the

01:12:09.500 pronouns back to what they actually are, but they keep saying Ms. and she. Okay, but I'm changing

01:12:15.660 them. Mr. Roski, wearing yellow prison scrubs and ankle shackles, apologized to Justice Kavanaugh

01:12:22.300 and to the judiciary as a whole for contributing to the fear judges experience as a result of doing

01:12:27.700 their jobs. He spoke in a halting voice, fighting back tears and leaning on his counsel's table,

01:12:35.480 sitting behind him in the gallery where his parents and younger sister. And then I remember

01:12:41.580 at this thing, they took testimony from his mother talking about how like she hadn't been

01:12:47.860 attentive enough to his gender issues. Like we're talking about the possible assassination of a

01:12:54.460 sitting Supreme Court. Again, Victor, if that justice had been Elena Kagan or Ketanji Brown

01:13:01.900 Jackson on the eve of the Dobbs decision, we would not be hearing about their childhood trauma

01:13:08.280 or their tears in the courtroom. No, if somebody had threatened either one of those liberal

01:13:16.100 justices and then claimed at his sentencing that he was trans and wanted a lighter sentence,

01:13:23.040 They would have said, well, we have a whole century of sexology research from Havelock Ellis to Masters and Johnson.

01:13:34.500 It's described in the literature as 0.01% to 0.001% of people who have a biological problem.

01:13:43.540 But it's very, very rare.

01:13:47.040 And that's true.

01:13:48.380 It's denoted in antiquity.

01:13:50.280 I mean, Catullus wrote a poem about changing your sex by castration, and it's in Petronius

01:13:57.740 the Satiricum.

01:13:58.480 But my point of all this, Megan, it was always recognized as a very rare phenomenon.

01:14:04.020 Not 20% of a student body saying in college, in some polls, that they're considering transitioning.

01:14:10.900 It became a cultural fad.

01:14:13.140 Almost every Hollywood celebrity wanted to talk about a child who might be trans.

01:14:18.200 And for the left, it was a new civil rights movement.

01:14:20.560 They said, well, you know what?

01:14:22.040 We've got all the legislation for civil rights.

01:14:24.460 We've got all the affirmative action, DEI, but we have to find, and we have gay marriage. 0.91

01:14:28.780 We've got to find a new, oh, it's the trans community.

01:14:31.660 And then they exaggerated the numbers.

01:14:34.000 They just didn't look at years of prior research.

01:14:37.480 And they just created this myth that, you know, it's one out of 10 people are transgender.

01:14:44.340 Right.

01:14:44.740 But you also know, Victor, I could have sat here with you a year ago and said, all right, Victor, knowing nothing about the case other than this.

01:14:53.580 On the one side, a man claiming he's a woman and wearing a dress and saying he's a furry.

01:15:00.260 On the other side, a conservative U.S. Supreme Court justice named Brett Kavanaugh.

01:15:06.100 In the middle of the case is the decision to overrule Roe versus Wade. 0.95

01:15:13.120 what is this trans person likely to get as a sentence the minimum the maximum or something

01:15:23.280 else you would have you would have said below the minimum you would have said that just based on

01:15:28.400 knowing nothing other than that absolutely and when i looked at susan blassey was that her name

01:15:33.880 susan blassey ford christine excuse me i i looked at that none of her story made sense nobody even

01:15:41.060 her friends couldn't corroborate the story she was obviously at times disturbed she said she was

01:15:46.700 afraid of flying she had a record of flying she had been coached and i said to myself

01:15:51.100 they're almost going to win this case because they had all the leftist money all the she was

01:15:57.500 a cause slave and it was it was as soon as as soon as it was over it was all revealed it was

01:16:03.320 kind of just constructed it was like eugene carroll she was a heartthrob remember her

01:16:07.860 E. Jean Carroll. And none of her stories. She couldn't remember what year the supposed assault

01:16:14.020 took place. She couldn't remember what dress because it hadn't even been made yet. She couldn't

01:16:19.220 get any of the story. Then that law and order had an episode where it was almost the same thing

01:16:24.360 as she was in the same department store. And then she had apps about how to break up people's

01:16:31.140 marriages. And then she was bragging that one of her favorite... She named her cat Vagina. 1.00

01:16:35.600 Yes. And she said one of her favorite actors was Donald Trump. And she loved The Apprentice. This was 10, 15 years. And then finally, I thought, nobody's going to believe this. And then they had a bill of attainder, which is, you know, better than I, is unconstitutional in the New York legislature and said, well, for one year, there's no statute of limitations for sexual assault claim. 0.99

01:16:56.040 They heard her story. They heard her coming out with it. They realized she was up against the statute of limitations. They were like, oh, we have an idea. We'll just change the law.

01:17:04.160 And now this same now this same half of the country, you know, the far left on the left side will lecture us about how, you know, Donald Trump is acting extra judicially and abusive process at the DOJ.

01:17:17.760 Just stop. Please stop. Because some of us remember what happened during the Biden four years.

01:17:23.560 Last but not least, I have a weird one.

01:17:25.380 That's basically the theme of the book I wrote, The Counter-Root.

01:17:29.340 I had been when I started it. I didn't realize how bad it was.

01:17:33.720 I knew it was bad, but I go through all of those cases, Alvin Bragg, Latina James, that's half the book.

01:17:41.300 And then I looked at all of the media accounts, and then I looked at the polls.

01:17:47.060 And what the weird thing was, every time he had the one mugshot, every time Jack Smith gave a press conference,

01:17:54.500 every time somebody said he was going to be, his polls went up.

01:17:58.560 His polls went up.

01:17:59.520 And it just reminded me that for all the physical abuse that he took and how this was all constructed, then it was beneficiary.

01:18:13.960 People really did get sick of it.

01:18:17.140 And the funny thing is I said to myself, this must have been all constructed out of the White House, even though they were local state prosecutors.

01:18:24.260 Then I found out that three days after he announced that he was going to run for President

01:18:29.100 Meghan, Nathan Wade was in the White House talking to the White House.

01:18:35.440 When does a Fulton County prosecutor go to the White House?

01:18:38.820 That same day, Merrick Garland, the same day appoints Jack Smith as special prosecutor.

01:18:46.460 The same day Latita James is logged in at the White House.

01:18:49.860 The same day, Michael Colangelo, the third highest guy in the DOJ, who had just come there from Alvin Bragg's case, leaves that prestigious job to go work for Alvin Bragg.

01:19:00.800 All there three days afterwards.

01:19:03.020 so it the whole when they i only mentioned that because when they mentioned lawfare or what would

01:19:09.040 have happened or the doj now that was all one of the most egregious examples of coordinating state

01:19:16.500 local county federal prosecutors to destroy a political opponent after he had announced that

01:19:22.560 he was going to run for president oh it's a late it's a late discovery of conscience by the left

01:19:27.720 side when they don't like it being done to them by the way one of the things that they were very

01:19:31.060 upset about was the john bolton indictment he pleaded guilty okay so um that that's that one

01:19:37.180 all right i know you got to go but i just have to mention this because it i mentioned it in the tease

01:19:41.200 and it just it came in right as we went to air i do think this is an ongoing story christy noam

01:19:46.900 still has a government post and her husband has not backed off of his bizarre antics one bit from

01:19:55.180 the look of it victor he's laughing i'm glad to make you laugh you need a couple laughs i do um

01:20:00.340 she's, she's special envoy. We all do for the shield of the Americas. And, um, now the daily

01:20:07.980 mail, which broke the story about her cross dressing husband to begin with Brian, he's still

01:20:12.580 at it. They're reporting. He is still at it that he messaged bimbo dominatrix that they like this

01:20:19.500 label in this weird fetish field to their, the bimbo vacation fetish. Um, they, they've been, 1.00

01:20:26.920 messaging each other. Okay. So they report Brian continued to message a dominatrix after his fetish

01:20:32.300 was revealed by the Daily Mail, according to the bimbo, who was a sex worker. She goes by 1.00

01:20:38.180 Shai Sotomayor. I wonder if there's any relation. I'm going to guess no. I don't think so.

01:20:46.280 She allegedly had a nine-year relationship with Brian Noem. He married Christy right after high

01:20:53.280 school. So obviously while he was married to her and she claimed on this podcast that he reached

01:20:58.200 out to her just last month. Hold on. Where is that? Uh, yeah, here it is. Let's play it. This

01:21:05.120 is her on a podcast. You posted to X on June 15th that you quote, can't keep Brian out of your DMs.

01:21:13.300 Um, how recently has he DM'd you and what is he saying to you? May 17th. He texted me on iMessage.

01:21:21.320 he's like I've been a really bad boy I'm like oh I know I know you've been a bad boy and then he

01:21:28.440 started talking to me directly on whatsapp and I had a long talk with my husband and I was just 0.97

01:21:36.000 like you know what I feel like this is truly a sick man I feel like he has a sex addiction and

01:21:42.620 that's not something I would want to take advantage of so I was just like you know what I'm gonna send 0.93

01:21:47.540 brian a message i sent him a very long message saying you know brian i thought really hard on

01:21:54.040 this you obviously are very sick you need help if it's not clear by now or after being america's

01:22:00.860 joke i truly don't know what is but i've came forward with my story about you this is just

01:22:06.420 kind of me saying goodbye if you find another girl who does want to talk to you during this

01:22:11.340 I'm like, shame on both of you.

01:22:13.220 You need to get better.

01:22:14.860 Okay.

01:22:17.100 Victor, when Shai Sotomayor is calling you sick

01:22:21.980 and saying you need help, you've reached rock bottom.

01:22:24.040 Yeah, I thought, wow, here's somebody who's a dominectus

01:22:26.840 is all of a sudden lecturing about psychological disorders 0.99

01:22:29.740 and her appearance convicts her.

01:22:32.720 But, you know, just a final thought.

01:22:34.640 There is something tragic about this

01:22:36.760 because I remember Christy Noem when she was a House member 0.52

01:22:39.580 and she was pretty good and as a governor she and then all of a sudden she she had altered her

01:22:47.480 appearance her the dress was inappropriate for her job at homeland security cory was involved 0.98

01:22:54.180 but i didn't know about we didn't know about the husband but it all i don't know whether it was

01:22:58.680 always there but it just seemed that it was a tragedy that once she got into national prominence

01:23:04.240 all of the characteristics that had promoted her and propelled her good governance sober behavior

01:23:10.900 the way she dressed was kind of you know attractive but conservative and then all of a sudden it was

01:23:16.800 like a glamour tour and then the personal problems with her boyfriend it just it just all imploded

01:23:23.220 it's it's kind of a moral story about power and and celebrity i'm quoting barack obama remember

01:23:30.620 he just said that i'm not interested at the at the dedication he said one thing we got to remember

01:23:36.740 is it life's not about influence celebrity and money i'm thinking you're worth a hundred million

01:23:42.680 dollars you work for netflix you can't keep out of the cameras you you you get 400 000 for a

01:23:49.900 lecture and you always fly in when no one really needs you for you to lecture somebody but it was

01:23:55.120 almost as if every time Obama, just to finish, every time he lectures on morality, it's always

01:24:01.000 a psychological projection. You know that he feels that he's a hypocrite, so he's going to 0.99

01:24:06.720 identify it in someone else and then condemn it, and that gives him absolution if somehow. 0.82

01:24:12.980 But I don't know what happened to Christy Noem. The weird thing, final, Megan, is that we didn't

01:24:19.460 know really about her husband. We just saw those pictures. He was very religious and straight and

01:24:23.800 father. So we all thought that he was the victim of this purported affair. And then it turns out

01:24:30.000 that whatever he was doing, it was so much more bizarre than her. He may have been the cause of

01:24:36.200 it. Yes. And you combined it. It was really tragic. It really was. It's I know. No, it is

01:24:41.780 tragic. What's even more tragic, tragic is poor Shai Sotomayor issued him an invoice for forty

01:24:48.160 five hundred dollars and he hasn't paid it, Victor. You got to you got to pay your debts,

01:24:52.300 especially you're going to put on those enormous fake boobs you got to pay and you're going to wear 0.93

01:24:55.960 the tidy little pants as brian gnome um you got to pay your debts because you know what's going to 1.00

01:25:01.260 happen is exactly what did happen those ladies are going to come out and they're going to spill

01:25:04.420 the tea on you brian and your rehab was a failure it was a fail you need to go back in and do a

01:25:11.360 different facility sir uh victor it's wonderful to have you thanks for giving us so much of your

01:25:16.500 time i know you're still recovering and we're all praying for you i'll be fine thank you megan

01:25:21.440 and appreciate it to you. Good. We're counting on it. Again, Victor's forthcoming book is titled

01:25:27.860 The Counter-Revolution, The Fall and Rise of Donald Trump and the MAGA Movement. We will be

01:25:32.480 sure to have Victor on and celebrate that when it hits. Up next, a deep dive into the new leads

01:25:37.700 on the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie. There actually is a fair amount of news in this story

01:25:43.220 today, and we'll tell you exactly what it is. I kind of can't believe what I've read this morning.

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01:27:12.840 New developments today in the Nancy Guthrie case. Multiple news outlets are now reporting

01:27:18.680 that a second note, we knew about this note, we just didn't know exactly what was in it,

01:27:24.400 sent after her disappearance, claimed Savannah Guthrie's mother was, quote,

01:27:31.020 buried in nature, seeming to indicate that she had passed away. The reporting prompted

01:27:38.120 an emotional response from Savannah who said her family is living in agony and she pleaded with

01:27:43.820 anyone with information to come forward. Now, as I mentioned at the top of the show, the person who

01:27:48.620 lit this fire to his credit is our pal, friend of the show, Howard Bloom, who did such amazing

01:27:54.800 reporting on the Idaho four and has now for air mail, which is a publication started by Graydon

01:28:02.840 Carter, formerly of Vanity Fair, along with a partner. He's reporting for them and they turned

01:28:07.920 him to the Nancy Guthrie case. So he had a first installment in his reporting not long ago. And

01:28:13.560 this was the second installment in which he broke a bunch of exclusive details about that second

01:28:18.300 ransom note, so-called ransom note, which may have, now we read it, been more of a like,

01:28:23.540 just like an update from the one writer who Savannah had said she actually believed was

01:28:31.920 the legitimate kidnapper. And now we're so, thanks to Howard, we're learning all about what was in

01:28:36.600 that note. And again, just a point of order, but it is journalistic courtesy and professionalism

01:28:43.100 101. When someone breaks something big, like a new detail, and they have it exclusively,

01:28:49.200 you have to credit them when you report it. And like, I'm seeing all these reporters run out like

01:28:54.960 it's their exclusive and like, you know, update on Nancy Guthrie colon. And then, you know,

01:29:00.240 my sources tell me, okay, I get that you've matched Howard's reporting. You have to cite

01:29:04.280 Howard. It's just, all right, sorry, enough about that. Joining me now to explain what all of this

01:29:09.920 could mean for the case, Maureen O'Connell. She's a 25-year veteran of the FBI and co-host of

01:29:15.300 Big City Crime, Behind the Red Tape, and James Hamilton, a former FBI supervisory special agent

01:29:22.340 who now runs his own security firm called Hamilton Security Group. Maureen, James,

01:29:27.960 great to see you both. So just want to get, we, we actually did talk about this because

01:29:34.820 as I'm giving credit out here, we covered this in March when an X account that goes by nerdy

01:29:41.840 addict actually did report some of these same contents from that second note. And we kind of

01:29:49.060 laughed about it because we're not used to hinging our reporting on an X account with somebody who

01:29:54.920 just goes by nerdy addict, right? But in our experience, nerdy addict has been right a lot

01:30:00.380 in this case and clearly has developed their own sources. I think it's a he, and the picture is of

01:30:05.500 a man. And so we reported that some of this content, that the second note had said that Nancy

01:30:11.500 had passed and moved on, but most people didn't touch it. And then Howard actually got it in

01:30:18.640 reportable form. So clearly he had enough sources to actually put it down on paper and publish it,

01:30:23.940 which he did and airmail did. And then it's, it almost seemed like all these reporters had it up

01:30:28.540 their sleeves, but didn't have permission to print it or whatever, because all of them started coming

01:30:33.280 out and saying, okay, we have it too. We have it too. We have it too. And what here is what the

01:30:38.240 reporting is that that first ransom note came, uh, Guthrie disappeared on February 1st. This is

01:30:46.580 Savannah Guthrie's mother. I think everybody knows this, but this point out of, um, Arizona

01:30:50.180 and she was in her home, Tucson, overnight on a Saturday to a Sunday. She had seen her

01:30:55.700 other daughter, Annie, and Annie's husband, Tomas, for some games earlier in the evening.

01:31:00.580 Tomas brought her back home. She went inside. Next thing we know, she didn't show up at her

01:31:04.120 home on Sunday morning, at her friend's home where they all watched a church service every Sunday

01:31:09.580 via remote, like via Zoom. She wasn't there and then all hell broke loose. It was clear that she

01:31:15.000 had been abducted we later saw videotape of the presumed abductor at her door and a very scary

01:31:21.660 ski mask and so on so then ransom letters started to come in and the question all along has been

01:31:27.480 were they legitimate is the this the actual kidnapper savannah would later say she did

01:31:31.600 believe those first two notes were from the actual kidnapper at the time local press reported and

01:31:36.800 howard has matched the reporting that the ransom note the one that i'm about to start with

01:31:42.020 the first one accurately described what nancy guthrie was wearing when kidnapped accurately

01:31:49.080 described where her apple watch was placed in her bedroom and accurately described a broken flood

01:31:55.860 light on the exterior of the home um so february second and third the mom goes missing february

01:32:03.940 one. Second and third, several media outlets, including TMZ, K-Gun, and K-O-L-D, those are

01:32:11.180 two locals, received the first purported ransom letter demanding millions in Bitcoin for her

01:32:16.320 return. This note has a first deadline of 5 p.m. Thursday. Again, she was stolen overnight Saturday

01:32:24.480 to Sunday. Now we get to Tuesday. And they're saying this Thursday, we want $4 million or

01:32:33.360 or else, that the note explicitly used that term, or else. There was no proof of life.

01:32:40.420 KLD anchor Mary Coleman told CNN at the time, a lot of it is information that only someone

01:32:44.620 who's holding her for ransom would know, and some very sensitive information and things that people

01:32:50.000 who were not there when she was taken captive would not know. Okay, February 4th comes along,

01:32:58.240 and Savannah and her siblings posted an Instagram message appearing to respond to the ransom.

01:33:02.380 We need to know without a doubt that she is alive and that you have her.

01:33:05.460 We want to hear from you.

01:33:06.460 We are ready to listen.

01:33:07.360 Please reach out to us.

01:33:09.140 February 5th, which is Thursday, the deadline.

01:33:11.720 The first ransom deadline comes and goes, $4 million due by 5 p.m.

01:33:16.620 They don't pay.

01:33:17.840 February 6th, another note goes to just one of those three news sources, and it's local

01:33:25.380 Tucson station, KOLD.

01:33:27.280 D. This is the one that, according to Howard Bloom, included language that he characterizes as

01:33:33.860 an apology. And it led to Savannah and her siblings responding with a new video on Instagram,

01:33:42.260 holding hands and saying, we received your message. We understand. We have it here. Let's

01:33:47.700 just watch it. We received your message and we understand. We beg you now to return our

01:33:56.980 mother to us so that we can celebrate with her this is the only way we will have peace

01:34:02.160 this is very valuable to us and we will pay howard reports that they were responding

01:34:12.800 to the message sent to kold alone that he reports as follows had the same ip address as the initial

01:34:21.620 seemingly credible emails. And it transformed the entire course of the investigation. Quoting here

01:34:28.600 with its receipt, the task force investigating this case concluded with a stony resignation.

01:34:35.100 The Nancy Guthrie case was no longer simply a kidnapping, but also a potential homicide.

01:34:39.940 In this note, the contents of which were summarized by sources close to the case,

01:34:44.620 the sender took a new, less confident tone. It opened with a sputtering and labored,

01:34:49.460 quote, apology. That was the word used by a source close to this case for Guthrie's inadvertent

01:34:57.260 death. It went harshly on, however, to offer up the transactional possibility that her body could

01:35:05.480 be delivered for a sum, whether it would be the original 4 million or another amount apparently

01:35:11.780 was never clarified. And now after Howard breaks that, guys, a bunch of people are matching the

01:35:20.120 reporting and adding to it. There's some quibble about whether it was an actual apology in there,

01:35:24.680 but confirming that that second note reported Nancy had died. Here's Brian Enten, among others,

01:35:33.560 reporting on the note, SOT 53. And I want to read you this exactly because I wrote down exactly what

01:35:38.760 I was able to get from my source. I am told that the second ransom note in the Nancy Guthrie case

01:35:45.980 said that she died and that she was, quote, buried with nature now. And again, this is according to

01:35:53.500 a source close to the investigation. The note indicated that Nancy's death was not intentional,

01:36:00.600 but did not offer a direct apology. There's been some other reporting today from other people

01:36:08.500 saying that it was an apology. I am told it was not a direct apology, but that it did indicate

01:36:14.580 that the death was not intentional. Remember, we don't know whether any of these ransom notes are

01:36:20.620 real. Savannah Guthrie has said in the past that she believes that the ransom notes, or at least

01:36:25.740 some of them, are real. And one more, Maureen and James. This is a reporter named Brianna Whitney.

01:36:33.920 She works now for Crime Junkie, but was previously at another outlet covering this case.

01:36:39.800 And she said she's seen the note and described it here.

01:36:44.120 SOT 56.

01:36:45.200 I have spent months and months covering the Nancy Guthrie case, boots on the ground.

01:36:49.680 And in my former role, before I came to Crime Junkie, I was made aware of what these ransom

01:36:54.580 notes said as I was reporting on the case.

01:36:56.680 I've seen them with my own eyes.

01:36:57.900 So I want to actually provide more context as to what that second note said.

01:37:02.520 the way that this note was written it's written as we like we didn't know this as if it was some

01:37:08.300 sort of team or whoever was involved in this it said we did not fully grasp the seriousness of

01:37:14.600 her physical condition it went on to say that they never intended to hurt her during all of this

01:37:20.180 they continued and said she perished shortly after she was taken they believe that it was

01:37:26.100 heart related and then what the reports were confirming earlier today that she was buried

01:37:30.520 with nature and maybe the most important part of the second ransom note it said nothing you could

01:37:36.660 have done could have changed the outcome we are truly sorry so she too is reporting an apology

01:37:43.380 but that's not even like the most sale the most salient point is that nancy is dead according to

01:37:48.060 this person that she had died and that's why you guys were right in your speculation when you heard

01:37:53.780 Savannah's reaction that it sounded like an attempt to get back a body as opposed to a live

01:38:01.520 person. But there's a lot in there. So let's go through it. Maureen, let me start with you,

01:38:06.260 your reaction. Well, energetically, to your point about what we thought when we heard

01:38:11.920 the Guthrie family respond to this, it was as if all the air was let out of their tires and you

01:38:18.340 could just feel it. You could see it. It was clearly obvious. Now, with regard to these

01:38:23.360 people saying, oh, nothing else could have happened. We never could have foreseen anything

01:38:27.340 like this happening is just utter nonsense. Nancy was bleeding when she left that residence,

01:38:34.880 which means she was probably struck in the face as an 84 year old woman. She was scared to a point

01:38:40.940 where a 35 year old fit man could have a heart attack and die. So for them to say, you know,

01:38:46.880 no one could have expected never intended to hurt her. Yeah, it's just it's just utter nonsense.

01:38:52.560 they're murderers they murdered her period yeah it's just to reiterate again what brianna reported

01:39:00.160 and again i trust her because she says she has seen the note this is not just reporting from

01:39:04.800 somebody james this is her saying i had eyes on it we did not fully grasp the seriousness of her

01:39:12.020 condition we never intended to hurt her nothing you could have done could have changed the outcome

01:39:19.140 but she did perish shortly after she was taken. And they say, also, we believe it was heart

01:39:26.040 related, quote, she's been buried with nature. Your thoughts? Oh, hey, good to see you. It just

01:39:31.980 continues with the unorthodox nature of this case. None of this, you know, every time we think we

01:39:38.640 have stuff that adds up, it just doesn't. And there's little bits of information here that

01:39:43.020 are interesting um you know i again it's i don't put a lot into the apology a lot of people are

01:39:49.740 saying that people that kidnap or murder can't apologize well that's a pretty general statement

01:39:55.900 um you know i i think it's just unorthodox again i'm curious what happened between the you know

01:40:01.760 the first note and the second note if we thought it was real and and i agree with maureen when we

01:40:06.420 saw that instagram post on you know with the family that you just played it was pretty clear

01:40:11.620 that something had changed within the investigation

01:40:15.180 and they were asking for the family to plead directly

01:40:19.520 because they basically had no communication

01:40:21.840 with the quote-unquote kidnapper.

01:40:24.400 And it was heartbreaking.

01:40:25.740 And again, the case continues to be heartbreaking

01:40:28.220 and I feel terrible for these people.

01:40:30.680 But what do you make of the attempts?

01:40:32.280 We have about a minute left

01:40:33.480 and then we'll carry over you guys after the break.

01:40:35.880 But what do you make of the attempt

01:40:37.880 to sound kind of like likable, Maureen?

01:40:40.920 It sounds feminine to me. A lot of the verbiage is feminine. This, this buried with nature. It's, it's like they're trying to comfort people. Why are you trying to comfort someone when you're feminine? It doesn't it? A lot of this does. Yeah. It's, it's very good observation.

01:40:59.640 Yeah. What guy is going to say, I'm, you know, I could have never foreseen this and nothing you could have done could have changed this. What that is neither here nor there. That has nothing to do with anything. Well, I'll tell you what could have changed it. You not breaking into the home of an 84 year old woman. There's a there's a, you know, breaking headline for you.

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01:43:54.540 Hey, everyone. It's me, Megyn Kelly.

01:43:56.500 I've got some exciting news.

01:43:58.940 I now have my very own channel on Sirius XM.

01:44:01.920 It's called The Megyn Kelly Channel, and it is where you will hear the truth, unfiltered, with no agenda, and no apologies.

01:44:08.200 Along with The Megyn Kelly Show, you're going to hear from people like Mark Halperin, Link Lauren, Maureen Callahan, Emily Jashinsky, Jesse Kelly, Real Clear Politics, and many more.

01:44:17.580 It's bold, no BS news, only on The Megyn Kelly Channel, Sirius XM 111, and on the Sirius XM app.

01:44:24.160 i've seen them with my own eyes so i want to actually provide more context as to what that

01:44:34.340 second note said the way that this note was written it's written as we like we didn't know

01:44:39.720 this as if it was some sort of team or whoever was involved in this it said we did not fully

01:44:45.520 grasp the seriousness of her physical condition it went on to say that they never intended to hurt her

01:44:51.580 during all of this they continued and said she perished shortly after she was taken they believe

01:44:58.320 that it was heart related and then what the reports were confirming earlier today that she

01:45:02.240 was buried with nature and maybe the most important part of the second ransom note it said

01:45:07.860 nothing you could have done could have changed the outcome we are truly sorry there it is again

01:45:15.920 reporting by now crime junkie reporter Brianna Whitney, who says she's seen that second

01:45:22.540 ransom note or however you want to characterize it note from the alleged kidnappers of Nancy

01:45:27.580 Guthrie and that it did include an apology, an announcement that she had died, a statement that

01:45:34.840 we did not fully grasp the seriousness of her condition. We never intended to hurt her.

01:45:40.260 she perished shortly after she was taken we believe it was heart related she's been quote

01:45:46.460 buried with nature and nothing you could have done could have changed the outcome welcome back

01:45:52.820 we're discussing the latest with the nancy guthrie case with maureen o'connell a 25 year old veteran

01:45:57.100 of the fbi and co-host of big city crime behind the red tape and james hamilton a former fbi

01:46:02.480 supervisory special agent who now runs his own security firm called hamilton security group um

01:46:08.460 yeah so back can we just like hit on the feminine point a little bit more maybe expand on that

01:46:13.000 like buried with nature we never intended to hurt her even like she perished perished was that word

01:46:22.680 used i wonder because that's that jumped out at me that's not really how people talk and then the

01:46:27.760 nothing you could have done could have changed the outcome like don't blame you know like weird

01:46:32.980 yeah yeah it's just very conciliatory and and very strange considering the facts of this

01:46:41.420 investigation of this case of this poor woman to talk this way you know any any 0.82

01:46:47.660 any self-respecting criminal would at least be a little more honest about what happened here

01:46:56.480 they're trying to soften what they did and please don't blame yourself i hope you're not being too

01:47:01.900 hard on yourself. It's so weird. Well, because, I mean, if you're following their logic,

01:47:08.600 they had said in the original note on February 2nd, and again, Sunday was the first,

01:47:14.280 give us $4 million by Thursday or else. Again, using the term actual or else.

01:47:21.580 And now here we are, they haven't paid and they're writing the note saying she's gone.

01:47:28.400 Oh, and by the way, there was nothing that you could have done to change the outcome.

01:47:32.360 So they seem to be saying, you didn't give us our four million bucks, but don't worry.

01:47:36.700 She was dead anyway.

01:47:38.020 Even if you'd given us the money, it wouldn't have panned out for you.

01:47:41.460 But if you want to give us money anyway, we could get the body back to you, I guess.

01:47:47.500 Or at least maybe that's just still lurking out there.

01:47:49.700 It's implied.

01:47:50.460 It's not clear.

01:47:51.740 And Brianna's description of it, no one's talking about.

01:47:55.400 but that original because the original note we know james said four million by thursday six million

01:48:01.840 by the following monday if you wait it's going to cost you more then comes the second note like

01:48:06.740 why would they send the second note like hey fyi she she died and don't blame yourself like what's

01:48:11.920 the point of that well it looks like they also didn't give any real um you know particulars on

01:48:17.840 how to get that four million to them it doesn't sound like there was any clear communication given

01:48:23.260 You know, this is how you would respond to me, get back to me.

01:48:27.240 And then they're just double tapping, hey, by the way, it's not worth it now because she's gone.

01:48:32.480 And we're sorry, but you can still give me some money because I get the body back to you.

01:48:36.340 But I think you and Maureen are nailing a couple of really important things, if true, that she's with nature.

01:48:43.400 Instead of saying, you know, she's gone with God.

01:48:45.520 I mean, if you're following the case, you know that Nancy was a believer.

01:48:49.980 And so that would track with her, you know, this note person saying it was a heart condition, which would track with if you're following the case, you know, about the pacemaker.

01:48:57.760 But saying that she is buried with nature is interesting that needs to be looked into.

01:49:02.580 And there's plenty of people who are really smart and can put words together and study language and really good context of a statement like that.

01:49:10.900 Is that said in certain parts of the world?

01:49:12.640 And certainly I hope the FBI is looking into something like that, because that's just a very interesting phrase.

01:49:17.080 And then what you had said earlier, Megan, about we didn't realize the extent of her condition, it kind of drew me to one of the two things, which is I thought initially there was some preoperational surveillance, meaning they looked at the house and maybe even looked at her.

01:49:34.420 And then whether or not that was because she was Savannah's mother or because it's in line with this nice house, nice theory.

01:49:43.760 You know, we were talking earlier about, you know, a crime gang hitting these nice houses, but still both would speak to preoperational surveillance.

01:49:51.180 And maybe that's what she's, you know, the note writer is alluding to is when we looked at it, we didn't realize she was that, you know, kind of old or fragile.

01:49:59.060 And I thought that was very interesting.

01:50:00.560 there's um reaction today from savannah herself uh who did address this on the today show this

01:50:07.580 morning it's like you kind of forget that she's back doing her job without any resolution in this

01:50:14.260 case which you know she has to do i'm you know we all have a job to do she has a job to do

01:50:19.200 but like then this story is in the news again and she you know felt the need to respond for

01:50:25.260 obvious reasons. And here's what she said. The bravery and courage with which you have done this

01:50:31.020 job every day since that happened. Nothing short of remarkable. Nothing short of remarkable.

01:50:36.020 I love you guys and I love this place. And this is unusual and unprecedented to say the least to

01:50:41.120 be sitting here. But, you know, I don't have any comment on the story and I'm not involved in our

01:50:47.520 coverage. But I can't pretend I'm not here. And so since I am, I wanted to just take the opportunity

01:50:54.020 to to ask people to really to beg people to come forward somebody knows something

01:50:59.220 and this is a new story today that is on your radar but this is the life that my sister lives

01:51:05.460 that i live that my brother lives that our extended families live that our children live

01:51:09.960 every day and we are in agony and we cannot be at peace so how much i try to come out here every

01:51:18.380 day and smile and find that joy and i will i promise i will this is the moment to tell you

01:51:23.900 that we need your help we're begging for your help and i'm not going to miss that opportunity

01:51:28.900 and so please if you're watching yes no matter how small the reward is there you can tell us

01:51:35.740 it can be anonymous please do the right thing for us for our family for our children

01:51:40.400 and we love our mom and we'll never stop looking for her never

01:51:44.180 i wish she had mentioned the reward too because it's like somebody that that the reward actually

01:51:52.560 could motivate somebody to come forward. And that is something we should discuss because

01:51:57.300 Howard's reporting, and I know Howard Bloom, he's very solid. Like he's, I don't know how he gets

01:52:04.440 the information he gets, but he gets really good exclusives. And his reporting is that this task

01:52:11.780 force that we've all discussed before, you know, that's what remains on the investigatory team now.

01:52:17.080 and it's a combo of FBI and Tucson cops, detectives, that the task force has like

01:52:27.560 expressed some regret from the sound of it about not paying the ransom. Like that if they had just

01:52:37.240 paid, if the FBI had agreed to pay the ransom or tell Savannah to pay the ransom, that 4 million

01:52:43.140 bucks in the beginning, that the FBI really feels confident in its ability to track the Bitcoin,

01:52:48.620 James. You know, it's Bitcoin. So it's not just like cashing a check. It's going to be a lot

01:52:52.880 harder to track it. But that at some point we've, you know, the Bitcoin has to be withdrawn or does

01:52:58.540 the kidnapper no good. And so why didn't they just pay the four million and then track the Bitcoin

01:53:06.400 and arrest the perpetrator? Because what he writes is that, and we had speculated about this,

01:53:12.000 Instead, they decided to, quote, tickle the wire. And remember, we talked about how Harvey Levin had reported that there had been a $300 deposit made into the bank account of whomever wrote those first two notes into the Bitcoin account. And no one bit. No one touched it.

01:53:32.040 now he's reporting it's a different number, like $141 that was deposited, but it's neither here

01:53:37.580 nor there. The point is the FBI, according to him, did in fact, this is the first confirmation

01:53:42.300 we've had that it was the FBI who put the money in and that it was an attempt to tickle the wire,

01:53:46.720 James. They thought maybe the kidnapper would be dumb enough to take it. And Howard reports that 0.98

01:53:53.280 either, you know, either the kidnapper was like, nice try, right? And knew it was a trap or just

01:54:00.360 wasn't interested in, you know, going, risking anything for 140 bucks. So your thoughts on

01:54:06.040 whether they, they should have paid it. Like if they're really believing this note was legit as

01:54:10.460 Savannah does, and her information definitely comes from them and that they had all these

01:54:15.520 things right about the Nancy scene and Nancy herself. And now we know more about what the

01:54:20.520 two notes sounded like, like, why didn't they just pay? It's because protocol. I mean, we got

01:54:28.660 remember that the reality is we still never had a proof of life ever uh so the note the first note

01:54:36.740 you know didn't indicate anything like a picture of her anything yeah we we do have some information

01:54:41.740 about the the the watch but that would not be specific enough that the bureau would say yeah

01:54:47.600 just go ahead and launch four million dollars because if you do and you know you don't get

01:54:52.440 her back because it's a scammer then there's going to be more four million dollar requests

01:54:57.160 and you're going to keep playing that game until you run out of money.

01:55:00.480 And so that's why they don't do it is because if you don't have any real legitimacy

01:55:04.640 and the only way you can really get that legitimacy is you've got to show us this person that you say you have,

01:55:09.900 they just can't do that.

01:55:11.380 And that's a question I ask too if they believe so much.

01:55:15.080 But that protocol is there for a very good reason.

01:55:19.620 And it might sound callous, but I agree that they shouldn't have paid the $4 million

01:55:24.700 without an actual proof of life of Ms. Guthrie.

01:55:28.140 I just don't understand, Maureen,

01:55:30.240 what kind of a kidnapper,

01:55:31.440 if you go with this is the kidnapper,

01:55:34.080 what is the point?

01:55:36.560 What is the point of on Thursday

01:55:39.420 after they've missed the deadline,

01:55:41.580 sending a follow-up saying she's dead?

01:55:45.600 She's dead now.

01:55:46.700 We didn't intend to hurt her.

01:55:48.480 It's not your fault.

01:55:50.140 We think it was the heart.

01:55:52.260 Nothing you could have done.

01:55:53.440 What is the point?

01:55:54.100 The point is they're amateurs and they and I have to first go back for a minute, if I could, to James, because if, in fact, they did pay the ransom without any proof of life, what precedent does that set for every other person who's kidnapped?

01:56:11.160 Everyone's going to jump out of the woodwork even more than they do right now, because you saw the predators pounce when that award.

01:56:18.040 Can we really say there's no proof of life?

01:56:19.940 I'm just going to play devil's advocate.

01:56:22.120 When the first note allegedly said, this is what she was wearing.

01:56:26.240 This is where her Apple Watch was.

01:56:27.840 And check out the broken floodlight on this part of the home.

01:56:30.640 That's our proof that we have her and we were there.

01:56:33.040 Is that qualified?

01:56:34.780 That's more than saying nothing.

01:56:36.780 Sure, but it's not enough to say that she's not dead.

01:56:40.020 I mean, if you just consider how they transported her or how they had to transport her.

01:56:44.240 So she's bleeding from presumably her mouth, which they already know by now because they've tested that blood to see if saliva was in it or whatever on the front porch.

01:56:53.100 So she's bleeding from her mouth.

01:56:54.740 She's 84 years old.

01:56:56.100 She has no medication with her.

01:56:58.960 She's very frail.

01:57:00.000 She's scared to death.

01:57:01.340 And there's no proof of life.

01:57:04.240 They obviously spoke with their doctors.

01:57:07.060 They've talked with family members.

01:57:08.860 You could see from watching her on Savannah's show how frail she was.

01:57:12.500 So if they were doing pre-incident surveillance, they saw her with a walker or a cane going very slowly around her backyard.

01:57:20.260 And when it's really hot and dry like that, it's difficult to – you could see someone breathing with labor.

01:57:26.600 It's – you know, you have to have proof of life.

01:57:30.800 It does sound callous, again, to Jim's point, but it's – I agree with it, actually.

01:57:37.920 I mean, like in negotiation, I mean, they teach you –

01:57:40.020 Yeah, go James.

01:57:40.380 I'm sorry, Megan.

01:57:41.100 no you got just in negotiation school i mean they teach obviously we want to establish

01:57:46.880 communication rapport but we got to keep the goal in mind and we both have the same goal here i mean

01:57:52.200 i want to get her if i'm working this as a negotiator and i'm talking to the kidnapper

01:57:56.520 look i want her back and you want to give her to me because you want your money so we we have a 0.92

01:58:00.980 common ground here but for me to get this money because four million bucks you know i don't have 0.96

01:58:04.900 it laying around i got to go get that but before i go get it can you prove to me you have her and

01:58:10.220 And it can't be that you know there's a floodlight out that you could have got from, you know, Google Earth overview or some, you know, previous story.

01:58:18.720 Because, Megan, you did a great job playing all the previous stories of interviews that Savannah had done with her mom where I could have seen that Apple Watch.

01:58:26.880 I could have seen the details of that inside of her bedroom.

01:58:29.580 I could have told you the nightgown she likes to wear.

01:58:31.820 I could have told you the color of her pillows.

01:58:33.820 All things I would have got from, you know, open source.

01:58:36.080 I wasn't the kidnapper, but I would have seen those things, you know, they were open to me.

01:58:39.460 So what we would be looking for is give me something else, like prove to me you have her, which is why you always see the newspaper clipping, you know, the hostage holds the newspaper of the day.

01:58:49.000 So we know, OK, we still have a live body and then we can negotiate in good faith.

01:58:53.720 If you're fake, if this is a faker, OK, I'm with you, I get I accept all that. 0.98

01:58:58.380 But like if you're a faker, why would you send that second? 0.87

01:59:02.100 No, I can I can actually kind of follow the real kidnapper might do it. 0.78

01:59:06.000 Like if the real kidnapper has her, it's Tuesday night.

01:59:09.680 Sorry, it's the first was Sunday when she was taken, right?

01:59:14.800 Yes.

01:59:15.120 And then the notes came on the second and third.

01:59:17.640 So you have her.

01:59:20.220 You want the money.

01:59:21.880 So you're sending out the notes on Monday and Tuesday saying $4 million by Thursday, $6 million if you wait till Sunday.

01:59:30.400 And you offer enough detail in there to convince somebody you have her.

01:59:33.320 This is what she was wearing.

01:59:34.340 This is where the Apple Watch was.

01:59:35.460 and this is what the floodlight looked like.

01:59:37.740 Then you watched the world explode over your note,

01:59:41.700 all the speculation, all the stuff.

01:59:43.700 And then let's not forget,

01:59:45.300 one of the first things the Guthrie family said,

01:59:46.860 Savannah in particular, right away was 0.87

01:59:48.600 she desperately needs her medication. 1.00

01:59:52.660 Like she said, she's not gonna survive

01:59:54.780 without her heart medication.

01:59:56.440 And we were never sure whether that was 100% true

01:59:59.040 or whether it was an attempt to ratchet up the urgency

02:00:01.100 for the kidnappers, like we need her back ASAP. 0.68

02:00:03.520 maybe, maybe it was 100% true and she dies. So now she dies. So you, you can't give proof of

02:00:10.160 life. There's no more life. You have Nancy, but it's a body now. And maybe by the time they sent

02:00:16.920 this follow-up note, um, on February 6th, that was the day after the ransom, the ransom was due

02:00:25.840 and not paid. Maybe by that day, you decided to take a different tactic. You've got it. You've

02:00:31.740 got to fess up. You cannot provide proof of life. There's not going to be any talking to Nancy

02:00:35.300 or pictures of Nancy holding the daily paper. So you decide to come clean saying she's dead,

02:00:44.540 but I don't know whether it's explicit in here, according to that Brianna, it's not, but maybe

02:00:50.120 the theory is the earlier demand will stand and maybe they will pay us for the return of the body.

02:00:56.320 And indeed, that is what Savannah responds with. So that makes sense to me. But if you are a fake

02:01:02.540 kidnapper just trying to get Bitcoin, $4 million or $6 million, that second note makes no sense.

02:01:08.960 Well, I don't, I mean, I'm surprised you haven't been through this because I know I have. And I

02:01:14.360 think probably Maureen has too. But when someone's trying to get something from you, they just keep

02:01:18.740 trying. They don't stop, right? They're incessant about it. It never ends. They just keep coming.

02:01:24.740 And so they hang on for anything. And that's why you send the second note is, oh, maybe I say the right things. Maybe I sound like you all had said earlier. Maybe if I sound apologetic or I sound sympathetic that maybe, you know, you'll send me some money because I have nothing right now. If I'm a scammer, I have no money right now. Maybe I can get a hundred grand from you if I tell you where the body is.

02:01:46.220 You know, and that's that's that's typical one on one fraud fraudster mentality and methodology.

02:01:52.660 That's exactly what they do.

02:01:54.300 So the second note doesn't surprise me at all.

02:01:57.360 You wouldn't expect them to write the second note ratcheting it up like she's hurting.

02:02:03.340 You know, she's scared, which, by the way, someone I think was Harvey reported was in the first note that she was scared.

02:02:12.000 She's OK, but she's then, you know, so the second note, you ratchet that up.

02:02:15.660 get Savannah upset. She's the one with the deep pockets. Like, let's scare her as opposed to 0.75

02:02:20.380 run the risk of her being like, I'm not paying $4 million for, you know, somebody who may or

02:02:26.540 may not have a body. Well, notice it worked because she went on Instagram the next day 0.53

02:02:31.560 on the 7th saying, hey, we hear you and we'll pay. So what happened? That's the good question

02:02:37.520 is, okay, what happened from the Instagram post to this, you know, IP address? Why was there no

02:02:43.700 more contact right what what happened then because there's no one reporting on any of that question

02:02:49.280 nobody right okay so what happened here maureen did you want to weigh in because i have another

02:02:55.200 thing i want to bring up but you go first we're missing a lot of pieces of information and and

02:03:00.160 without them it's it's going to be hard but i think part of what happened with the second note

02:03:05.060 is they're trying to take their foot off the gas they're trying to let let trying to make the the

02:03:11.520 situation um uh a little less explosive and by that i mean they're trying to turn down the temp

02:03:19.000 right now everybody's full steam ahead everyone's looking for they're out searching for it's pedal

02:03:24.100 to the metal every single law enforcement agency all and they just wanted to to just pull that back

02:03:29.240 a little bit and by saying that she's gone by saying that she's you know out in nature what

02:03:35.200 does that mean it means they're gonna so we don't have to worry about writing warrants for houses

02:03:40.580 right now i mean there's it's it just it just sends the investigation in a totally different

02:03:45.060 direction and away from someone and the final thing about this is a lot of this in the verbiage

02:03:51.620 here is someone who cares you know we always said from the beginning that this is someone that

02:03:57.120 that had some nexus to nancy this this person is trying to say that they care

02:04:05.400 um because that might um as jim said that james said that might um get them to pay

02:04:12.240 but they're just predators they're just going to do whatever they can to get someone to pay them

02:04:16.420 okay here's here's what i find interesting among other things about this

02:04:23.540 harvey levin as you know sheriff harvey as our friend zach peter calls him he was also he got

02:04:33.720 the first ransom note, but not the second. Then he started getting targeted by some other person

02:04:40.100 who also wanted Bitcoin. And this person was like, I know where she is and I know who has her

02:04:47.420 and revealed that it was south of the border, but like wouldn't say more and was like, give me half

02:04:53.480 the Bitcoin up front and half later. It was, I don't know, that kept changing. And we all kind

02:04:57.760 of thought this person was a fraudster, maybe left a few percentage points open for the fact

02:05:02.420 that maybe not, but did not sound legit. But Harvey, he came out and laid out some updates

02:05:13.440 on TMZ about that person and Harvey's discussions with the FBI around that person. Okay. Just

02:05:23.560 listen to. We cut it way down, but listen to what we have here. Now, there is a reference to Nancy

02:05:32.780 Guthrie not being alive anymore, but that is from the person who sent us multiple emails saying that

02:05:41.740 he knows or knew where Nancy Guthrie was and where the kidnappers were, and he wanted money

02:05:51.040 in return for information.

02:05:53.540 We passed that along to the FBI

02:05:55.420 as we did the ransom note.

02:05:58.260 But this person kept sending us emails.

02:06:02.320 And early on, he said,

02:06:04.700 time is of the essence.

02:06:06.400 And then a few days after the kidnapping,

02:06:08.560 he said, time is no longer of the essence,

02:06:13.300 meaning she wasn't alive.

02:06:16.380 So that's where that came from.

02:06:18.700 Not the people who kidnapped her,

02:06:21.040 but from the person who was sending us these notes.

02:06:23.740 Now, that person wanted effectively $100,000.

02:06:30.200 This person also said that he was afraid that he might be implicated.

02:06:35.380 He had a burglary on his record from, I think he said, 11 years before.

02:06:40.660 And apparently he knew these kidnappers well enough that he was afraid he might be implicated.

02:06:45.880 So, the FBI never paid that money.

02:06:52.080 I was always confused about that.

02:06:54.400 I called the FBI back.

02:06:56.040 And I said, look, what if TMZ does a documentary

02:07:03.020 and that we try and get in touch with this guy

02:07:06.900 and even pay the money?

02:07:09.360 And if he takes us to the location,

02:07:13.480 then you get resolution the guthrie family gets resolution and if he scams us he scams us but i

02:07:22.740 just had this real feeling that it might be real and i've called a half a dozen times since over

02:07:31.180 the last couple of weeks and i've gotten nothing back for some reason the fbi has gone radio silent

02:07:38.000 on me. So that's another question. Why not just try to pay that one off and see if it leads

02:07:47.400 anywhere? Because that person too, for whatever it's worth, was saying time is of the essence,

02:07:54.800 which kind of tracks with the first ransom note we were just discussing, which we believe is from

02:08:00.920 somebody else. Savannah says she believes the legitimate kidnapper. And then the reversal

02:08:05.820 days later of she's gone and according to harvey's uh person time is no longer of the essence and

02:08:15.140 this person wouldn't have known none of that reporting about the second you know ransom note

02:08:20.200 saying she's perished and she's been buried with nature that was not yet public so you know if this

02:08:28.260 guy yeah you could make the case that maybe this guy did know the actual kidnappers and maybe all

02:08:34.740 of this is real. Maybe the first two notes are from the real kidnapper. And maybe this guy

02:08:38.480 really didn't know the real kidnapper. And we should have, instead of putting 300 bucks or

02:08:43.140 $140 in the Bitcoin account, should have actually taken Harvey up in his offer to put the half of

02:08:49.680 the Bitcoin into the account and take the loss. You know, it was 45,000 bucks at one point. Like

02:08:56.300 he's basically saying to the FBI, Maureen, I will pay it. I will suck it up. And they aren't getting

02:09:03.420 back to him. So what's the story there? Well, maybe just as is the case with you, Megan,

02:09:08.300 maybe the FBI was tired of dealing with Sheriff Harvey. Yeah, exactly. Sheriff Harvey. That's

02:09:15.200 right. I think they're close right now to pulling this case together. And that's what my sources are

02:09:23.540 telling me. What? Yeah, things are happening. But one of the reasons it's taking so long is because

02:09:31.020 whatever defense attorney takes this investigation and represents whoever they charge in this case,

02:09:38.080 you have to operate under the assumption, like from day one, you're doing your trial prep

02:09:43.280 practically. Everything you do is geared toward trial and prosecution. And if you're going to

02:09:54.560 have the greatest defense attorney in the world handling this case, whoever takes this case.

02:09:59.840 So you have to operate under the assumption that a couple of big chunks of your evidence may get tossed.

02:10:05.020 So you have to put a case together in such a way that it would withstand losing some of these chunks of evidence,

02:10:11.960 depending on how you got them or how vulnerable they might be to getting tossed.

02:10:16.800 So I think they're just working on these other chunks of evidence, shoring them up even more.

02:10:21.720 But I think we're getting closer. I actually really do think they're getting closer.

02:10:25.900 And one thing, when James talks about being a negotiator and he talked about every time a kidnapper puts out a ransom note, just the words have all kinds of implications.

02:10:41.480 And so the same holds true for FBI agents when we speak to people on the outside.

02:10:46.380 If we talk to them and there's optimism in our voice and we sound upbeat and we don't want to answer questions, the person we're talking to could say, wow, they're probably closer than we think they are.

02:10:58.300 And that's when I would that's when I go to ground and I don't talk to anybody else when I feel like I'm I'm getting there.

02:11:05.320 And I don't know, James, what do you what do you think about that when you're getting kind of close?

02:11:09.040 No, wait. I love James, but we're not moving on. Sorry.

02:11:11.460 in o'connell yet why could you just expand on why you think they're wrapping like they're getting

02:11:17.920 there that they're close to making an arrest i think they're getting close to the porch guy

02:11:25.680 and when they when they get the porch guy the floodgates shall swing open

02:11:33.900 what's your level of confidence on that 75 percent maureen that's big news i know i'm like

02:11:45.220 that's huge if big if true as the kids say by the way it does it it raises something else howard

02:11:54.240 bloom said in his reporting that he wrote he wrote that they are thinking it was a group effort

02:12:02.460 like at least two at this point, because he reports, they think the person writing about

02:12:10.000 the Bitcoin, um, was sophisticated that the, the letters, the words, the English, the diction,

02:12:21.300 whatever was sophisticated. And that the guy on the porch to them seemed too bumbling to be the

02:12:28.540 author and again that they may think that those two notes are authentic they may think you don't

02:12:34.100 i don't know that i'm going off of what i said before savannah thinks so and her her info would

02:12:38.400 have come from them for sure um and harvey reported that the fbi was taking those notes very seriously

02:12:44.080 so that they they're thinking the bumbler on the front porch alleged bumbler there's a difference

02:12:52.080 of opinion there is not the person who did the bitcoin account and wrote the sophisticated notes

02:12:57.100 and is talking about perished, she perished and she's with nature, she's buried in nature and all

02:13:03.700 that. I actually, that tracks to me, that tracks that it might not be the same person. I don't

02:13:09.340 know. James, your thoughts on Maureen's just dropping a bomb on us here on our casual update

02:13:14.500 in the case. Well, leave it to Maureen to bring the great news. And I certainly pray that she's

02:13:20.440 right and that there is some closure and all that. I would be over the moon if we actually

02:13:26.420 had an arrest in this case, and I would be very, very happy about that. I did want to go back,

02:13:33.880 Megan, to your question with regards to Harvey and this second individual who has some information.

02:13:43.620 The reason the Bureau puts out a reward is so that we can get money to people who have useful

02:13:48.300 information. And so as he started going down that road as to why the individual didn't like that

02:13:53.500 idea, it sounded very criminal to me. And I mean, you know, Maureen and I, for more than 50 plus

02:13:59.160 years, we talked to criminals on a daily basis. And so when he double taps with, well, I have a

02:14:05.380 burglary 11 years ago, that's just nonsense, okay? He doesn't want to go to the bureau because he's

02:14:10.900 probably full of crap, right? That's just the reality of it. He's making up excuses. There's 1.00

02:14:15.640 nothing that says we can't give you the reward even though you've had some criminal conviction

02:14:20.420 years ago, as long as you weren't involved in the crime. So I just think that he sees Harvey as an

02:14:27.160 easy mark and wants some publicity and wants a little bit of money. And the reason to answer

02:14:32.060 your question pointedly as to why the Bureau doesn't let Harvey just pay the money, it didn't

02:14:37.240 sound like they told him no, they just gave him the Heisman. They just basically said, we're moving

02:14:41.120 on. We got more important things to do. And if Harvey wants to pay the guy, go right ahead. He'll

02:14:45.680 probably lose the money, but it'd be a good story for him. But again, we just can't be in the

02:14:50.060 business of giving money out to people that you know are chasing stories um it just doesn't work

02:14:56.200 that way and it's not a professional way to to operate one of my favorite lines of all time

02:15:01.760 james giving them the heisman like that i love it um yeah what about i'm going back to look at the

02:15:09.380 harvey the harvey notes his special line of notes not not the receipt of the first ransom note but

02:15:16.580 this other person who's like, they're in Mexico and I know who they are. Now that's the first

02:15:20.800 he's revealed that the person had a burglary conviction. I had not heard that before. So

02:15:26.800 the person's admitting that they have a record or maybe Harvey, Harvey doesn't have an identity on

02:15:32.620 them. So no, the person must've admitted in the notes that he has a burglary conviction. So, you

02:15:38.220 know, that kind of increases his credibility. You hang out with criminals. You are a criminal

02:15:42.700 more likely that you're hanging out with the criminals maybe well fun fact but i'm going back 0.90

02:15:47.480 well i'm trying to fight figure out maureen when did that guy write time is of the essence and when

02:15:52.860 did he write time is no longer of the essence because i do if it's if it tracks exactly the

02:15:59.400 first note and the second note from the other guy then that is kind of interesting like doesn't that

02:16:04.800 increase the chances that the second harvey guy might actually have known what he was talking

02:16:10.020 about. Well, Maureen hit it, but I want to come back to it if I can. Sure. Yeah. When he says

02:16:16.900 time is of the essence and he doesn't get a response, then, I mean, he just realizes that's

02:16:24.040 not going to work. So he's going to go to plan C or D. And then the only other quick thing is if

02:16:28.700 someone admits to us that he's got a burglary wrap in his jacket, guaranteed he's got five other

02:16:35.400 charges also. Right. And I wrote it down as you were as you were playing that, Megan, I wrote it

02:16:42.180 down. Because when you work fraud, wire fraud, mail fraud, you know, stuff we work forever.

02:16:48.000 It's always critical, like time, time is of the essence, they always create this urgency,

02:16:53.100 right? When they want to get money from somebody, it has to happen right now.

02:16:57.420 There can't be any slowdown in the process at all. And they always hit the people with

02:17:01.680 urgency. And so when I heard that, I was like, yep, that's typical fraud 101. I don't know.

02:17:09.420 Yeah. Consider the success of all the fraud against elderly people. I've got your granddaughter 0.99

02:17:14.820 right here. And a young girl screaming in the background, get to the bank, withdraw money, 1.00

02:17:19.160 drop it off here. You can't believe the people that go along with that. When you charge it with

02:17:24.960 emotion and you put a timestamp on it and you push, push, push, this is what they do.

02:17:30.880 well it would it okay so i was pursuing what if it's real what if that's the real kidnapper and

02:17:37.600 this is a real guy who knows the kidnapper and they're all they're writing the same thing

02:17:41.140 times of the essence ah it's not of the essence um what if it's not if it's not real neither one's

02:17:48.360 real then what you're saying is actually really smart and really interesting too because you're

02:17:54.720 you got two bad guys behaving exactly the same way at the same time right then you got two we

02:18:00.400 presume to. There's still the possibility this is the same person, but you got two bad guys who are

02:18:06.600 like, emergency, emergency, I'm in on it and I know things. No response. It's not an emergency,

02:18:13.880 but I might be able to help you out a little. Just mention the guy sitting around.

02:18:17.440 You're seen to be saying, James, this is like tried and true. You've seen a million of these

02:18:20.240 where they do exactly this pattern. And just think about the conduit. It's TMZ,

02:18:24.560 right why go there if you really have useful information you're first of all you're going

02:18:30.820 to the family i mean every kidnap and iver worked that they called the family they didn't call tmz

02:18:35.640 they didn't call the local news station they called the family and said hey we got your kid

02:18:39.740 we want the money that's how it works i mean it it just again i think i said this the first time

02:18:45.520 i was with you how unorthodox this thing has been the communication through tmz or your local news

02:18:51.560 I mean, you go direct to that family. And certainly if you know it's Savannah Guthrie, you go to her directly.

02:18:57.760 Hey, here you go. I want my money. And again, I just I smell fraud and it's good publicity for TMZ, you know,

02:19:06.040 and that's why they keep going there. And he's getting a good story out of it.

02:19:09.900 I wish he had kind of paid it to see what would happen. He probably would have been out that money.

02:19:14.700 Probably. Right. Especially the south of the border.

02:19:17.620 There was a third party, not to be confused with these first two parties that that came in with a demand for ransom that went directly to Annie Guthrie's phone.

02:19:29.080 That guy's he's been caught and he's going on trial, I think, soon for doing that.

02:19:33.580 But my point is simply Annie Guthrie's number must be pretty easy to get, or at least at that time must have been pretty easy to get if some loser criminal was able to do it and text her.

02:19:43.680 I've got your mother, you know, whatever.

02:19:45.620 so if these kidnappers you know wanted to reach directly to the family seems like they could have 0.97

02:19:53.820 done it you know this nimrod did it with annie you don't have to go through savannah whose number 0.76

02:19:58.300 is definitely going to be protected but annie guthrie seemed accessible and they didn't do it 0.94

02:20:02.840 they went through tmz just to bolster your point you were going to say something maurie i couldn't

02:20:06.340 agree with you more that's derrick colella from hawthorne california and i looked up when that

02:20:11.840 story first hit, I tried to find their contact information and I was able to find even some

02:20:17.820 scrapings of it for both Tommaso and for Annie because they're small business people and they're

02:20:23.240 in the area and he's a teacher and, you know, parents, whatever. I could see that. I could also

02:20:30.120 see, you know, some people are saying, why didn't they reach out to Savannah? Well, as you mentioned,

02:20:34.480 And Savannah, obviously, is going to be impossible to get a direct line into.

02:20:39.640 So I agree with exactly what you're saying.

02:20:43.160 Derek Colella's hearing, by the way, is July 2nd.

02:20:48.940 And that's going to be interesting, Megan, because after July 2nd, his case will be adjudicated, considered adjudicated.

02:20:56.800 And once once that happens, if there is anything more to the Derek Colella saga and this case, he's going to be able to then he'll be free to work with the prosecution.

02:21:09.340 So if anything is going to come out of that, it'll come out after July 2nd.

02:21:14.520 Hmm. I just went back to the nerdy addict report that we had in March and that we discussed on this show.

02:21:24.280 again it it dovetails with a lot of what we've heard today but i just want to read you what

02:21:28.880 nerdy reported at the time i now have two sources confirming that one of the letters sent to the

02:21:35.580 media in the nancy guthrie case allegedly states the sender apologized claiming they so that's now

02:21:43.760 howard bloom this brianna whitney now of crime junkie and nerdy all saying that that the that

02:21:50.340 there was an apology. Again, unclear to me whether they're saying there was an explicit I'm sorry

02:21:55.880 or just the tone of the letter was an apology. Howard Bloom puts apologize in quotes that that's

02:22:04.140 what he was told. And Brianna, who saw the note, says that it includes an apology. But okay, for

02:22:11.100 whatever it's worth. He says the sender apologized, claiming they did not realize how serious her heart

02:22:17.260 condition was and that she has, quote, gone to be with God. Now that's different. No one else is

02:22:25.060 referencing gone to be with God. We're buried with nature is where we are. I can kind of see how you

02:22:31.900 might confuse those two. I don't know. They're both sort of ethereal or an ending of sorts. I

02:22:37.540 don't know. We'll see. According to these sources, investigators believe the message came from the

02:22:42.560 same individuals who previously demanded Bitcoin, though this latest letter reportedly made no

02:22:47.020 demands and was framed solely as an apology. While this has been validated by two independent

02:22:52.120 sources, it has not been publicly released or confirmed by the media. And then came Howard

02:22:57.740 Bloom. So that's, I don't, I just find that interesting. Like why does he have gone to be

02:23:04.160 with God and the new ones don't have that, that it was behind, I don't know, she was buried in

02:23:12.300 nature. But in any event, that too confirmed back in March how serious her heart condition was and

02:23:18.700 that they didn't realize it. So this, what's your bet now, Maureen, having heard all this,

02:23:24.480 that Savannah's right, that this probably, these first two really were from the kidnapper,

02:23:30.040 and that this is the actual kidnapper, either saying she's going to be with God or buried in

02:23:34.880 nature, but feeling bad about it, or at least trying to convince Savannah and co that he or

02:23:39.660 she feels bad about it. Is that your bet that these are legit or no? I would say Savannah and

02:23:44.700 possibly the authorities are wrong. I would say they might be legitimate in that someone knows

02:23:49.460 someone close to them, overheard them, a girlfriend to some of the guys that took her

02:23:54.420 as something along those lines, just because of the position of that Apple watch. People say that

02:24:00.320 that was so specific that you really could not have been able to know that. And it's not like

02:24:05.840 seeing it on the nightstand it's something like they ripped it off her wrist and they threw it

02:24:10.880 and it landed something like under the dishwasher in the kitchen some random spot that you would

02:24:16.560 not know that unless you were in that room you know well the other thing is the pajamas like

02:24:21.500 i don't think you actually could know what pajamas nancy owned from what we saw on the

02:24:28.040 today show that's the one thing i i agree with you james on the apple watch and the floodlight

02:24:32.760 You could get both of those if you were a contractor inside the house, potentially, if the Apple Watch were just in a generic place.

02:24:40.240 You know, like, you see where the charger is, and that's where she charges it, and you're there as the cleaner, and you mark that in your mind.

02:24:47.000 But what pajamas she had, that would be something, you know, you'd have to be her housekeeper, basically, I think, to know that.

02:24:54.520 And what pajamas she was wearing when she was abducted, that would convince me.

02:25:01.540 did you have that i think you know if you do you have that somewhere

02:25:04.500 yeah that's what they're reporting that that um howard is actually just referencing back

02:25:12.800 to earlier reporting that um they they knew what she was wearing that the outfit correctly

02:25:19.020 described what guthrie had been wearing that's what he how he phrases it and they went further

02:25:25.120 and said she didn't have her slippers with her or something to remember megan way back yeah

02:25:31.080 yeah that's right so that if that if if and you know we don't know but if they had that that would

02:25:38.860 convince me too um what do you make of the possibility that this is more than one person

02:25:45.660 maureen and the theory that porch man is not the sophisticated bitcoin and letter writer well with

02:25:54.780 regard to the sophistication of that letter i've said from the beginning that you know chat gpt does

02:25:59.240 great job you could i mean even if you had to translate it for example and then say make it

02:26:04.120 sound more sophisticated you can do that and it and it does it fine and and i know that harvey said

02:26:09.480 oh it doesn't look like chat gpt i'm not sure how he would know that but okay he does have a tech

02:26:14.340 team um so i think that it's it's been my opinion since the beginning that it's probably two people

02:26:22.880 because any more than two, you're just exponentially increasing your risk.

02:26:28.320 But Jim Clemente, the Fitz's old partner, and also an FBI profiler,

02:26:34.240 he said he's seen no evidence that there's more than one person.

02:26:38.520 So he's been trying to train my brain to think that the possibility does exist,

02:26:43.100 that it could just be one person.

02:26:44.940 If it is one person, they had to use some sort of a dolly to move the body.

02:26:49.560 It's just too heavy.

02:26:51.020 Even if she was slightly ambulatory, she was bleeding, presumably from her face.

02:26:59.040 And you're going to have to do something to restrain her if you're going to put her in a car and take her someplace.

02:27:07.200 And to your point about the kidnappers in Mexico and stuff like that,

02:27:11.800 the vast majority of the kidnappings that we see in this country are drug-related.

02:27:18.700 And by that, I mean someone has a load of dope and they get pulled over by police and the dope gets seized.

02:27:25.720 Whoever those people are, they're still on the hook to the cartel to pay them for the money that they owe them.

02:27:30.760 And so oftentimes that's what will spark a kidnapping.

02:27:35.560 Now, that kidnapping in a situation like that, the victim will stay with like sometimes a couple that we've worked here.

02:27:43.960 they've stayed with a family until the money is paid and then they release them.

02:27:49.420 And I'm sure James can speak to that also. So, you know, going down to Mexico,

02:27:57.980 what's happening here is far afoul from that because they're not running this operation like

02:28:06.520 a cartel would run a kidnapping because it's a hit and run, get it done, get the cash,

02:28:12.740 get her out of there you know that is not what happened to you not only that but james

02:28:17.920 nothing you could have done could have changed the outcome we never intend that does that sound

02:28:23.640 like a mexican drug cartel to me but i am an amateur not the ones not the ones i've worked

02:28:29.680 um they don't speak that way and they don't write notes like that uh frankly uh so no um but that's

02:28:37.020 just my experience so that's not that's not the norm but but but what do you make of multiple 0.98

02:28:42.640 people yeah doesn't you know ruling out the mexican gang doesn't mean it's not like a gang

02:28:47.300 of two americans and let's not forget about how the back door was propped open propped open by

02:28:51.780 like a planter or something yeah i've always felt this guy was trying to come in through the front

02:28:55.380 door we believe he exited with nancy through the front door but i think the working theory is that

02:29:00.840 he will end up getting in through the back door since the door was propped open with something

02:29:05.580 Yeah, I've always felt it was multiple people. I still don't know how you get the guy on the porch saying she's with nature and we're terribly sorry. I just don't put those two together. I think it's a team. I think it always has been.

02:29:22.800 I don't really believe these ransom notes are legitimate.

02:29:27.040 If there was any type of desire to get paid, which they always want to get paid in these situations,

02:29:32.740 they would have extended a lot more effort to make that happen, and they didn't.

02:29:37.440 So I think it's interesting, but I know scammers, and I just feel so frequently that this is a scam.

02:29:45.620 They're playing a game.

02:29:46.420 They're trying to get paid, and they've been proving anything to me.

02:29:49.180 And just to go back to your point real quick about if they did have specificity about her nightgown, and I know you said something like you'd be convinced.

02:29:57.100 Well, I wouldn't be.

02:29:58.180 I'd still need to know more.

02:29:59.700 I need to know how many people went into that crime scene.

02:30:02.060 How many people would have known what she was wearing?

02:30:04.760 Who did they talk to?

02:30:05.900 I mean, I would still need to go a long way before I could fundamentally say, yeah, that's them, without them showing me a picture of her or letting me talk to her.

02:30:16.800 I'm just, you know, as an FBI, I'm not going to say to the family, yeah, they've got her.

02:30:20.700 Let's pay.

02:30:21.440 Let's do what we need to do.

02:30:22.380 I'm just not going to do that because there's nothing here yet to prove to me.

02:30:26.340 Yeah, they had her, but they had Miss Guthrie.

02:30:29.860 You know, you're raising good points because I'm thinking we did a week, fraud week, one

02:30:35.320 year when I was on vacay and we did a pre-taped five series episodes, five episode series.

02:30:41.760 that was june of two years ago june of 2024 and we played as the final episode of fraud week

02:30:52.440 my own family's attempted defrauding where my husband's mother as you point out the elderly

02:31:00.240 who at the time was 86 i think 85 and um she received a phone call from a hysterical woman

02:31:08.180 claiming to be her daughter her own daughter saying she'd been in a car accident uh no saying

02:31:15.160 that she and her her partner had been pulled over by the cops and accused of drunk driving

02:31:21.000 excuse me and that her partner had punched out the cop and meanwhile she and her partner don't drink

02:31:28.040 but like it was covid so like you didn't you never knew you know like people were behaving weird

02:31:34.120 so that uh he punched out the cop and they were both in jail and they needed to be bailed out

02:31:40.400 asap and could she please call could the mother please call diane's lawyer and she gave her mom

02:31:49.140 in quotes her lawyer's number her public defender and jackie doug's mom called us hysterical she

02:31:56.040 was like oh my god diane has had this terrible incident she and brad are both in jail and i

02:32:01.980 spoke with her like i spoke with diane like oh my gosh this is terrible what happened and uh it was

02:32:09.120 all a fraud but it was so sophisticated you guys he had at least three people involved in the fraud

02:32:13.840 with him different actors who called who played the court clerk who played his assistant who played

02:32:19.220 the 1-800 it was like the amount of money they threw into trying to get doug's mother it was

02:32:25.980 just crazy and we almost fell for it we almost they had us they had us on the line for sure

02:32:31.140 james they you know but they're but for the grace of god they're really good i help clients every

02:32:36.020 day with call spoofing and how to avoid it how to mitigate it how to calm down you know bring the

02:32:41.220 anxiety way down there's an easy way to do it because they're pushing the right buttons that's

02:32:46.140 why you you felt that megan you felt like god this sounds real because they're pushing the

02:32:51.340 right buttons they know what they're doing and there's a way to beat them but you gotta you know

02:32:55.160 take the first step you can't do it if you're running yeah you gotta pump the brakes

02:33:00.020 can't put too much stock into those letters that's a good reminder um but we do know one thing which

02:33:06.240 is nancy's gone and someone was on that front porch that's right and maureen o'connell says

02:33:11.460 they may be getting closer to figuring out who that was team thank you great to see you again

02:33:16.980 to follow wow um what a what a crazy story i mean like that that's that's quite the update

02:33:25.220 right like maureen's update is bigger than anything we came to air with that there she's

02:33:30.420 75 sure that they're closing in on porch man i mean that would be that would be everything

02:33:35.860 that's the that's the one who took her i don't know whether he's the one writing the notes

02:33:39.780 whether he's the one who masterminded it but clearly that's the one who took her and if we

02:33:44.880 find him then it's ballgame still saying prayers for nancy and savannah and their whole family

02:33:50.380 which is still, as she points out, in agony.

02:33:54.200 Let us know your thoughts.

02:33:55.180 You can email me, megan, at megankelly.com.

02:33:58.300 On that or any other aspect of today's show or the news,

02:34:00.700 look forward to hearing from you,

02:34:01.820 and we will be back tomorrow with more.

02:34:05.500 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show.

02:34:07.680 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

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The Megyn Kelly Show - June 23, 2026

All the LIES in Karmelo Anthony Case From “The View,” with VDH, and Former FBI Special Agent Says She's 75% Confident There Will Be Arrest in Guthrie Case ｜ Ep. 1345

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