The Megyn Kelly Show - Amy Chua on the Climate on Campuses, Political Tribalism, and Being a ＂Tiger Mom＂｜ Ep. 46

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00:00:30.620 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:32.540 Your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:42.160 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:00:43.840 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:45.360 Today on the program, we've got Amy Chua. 1.00

00:00:48.720 You know who she is.

00:00:50.160 She is a professor.

00:00:52.100 She's the John M. Duff Professor of Law at Yale Law School.

00:00:55.920 She's one of their most popular professors

00:00:57.760 for reasons that will become obvious to you.

00:01:00.280 She's married to another Yale professor.

00:01:02.900 And she's got two young daughters while they're in their 20s now 0.85

00:01:05.500 who are, one's a double Harvard person, one's a Harvard-Yale person.

00:01:08.500 So she's done pretty well in raising really smart kids.

00:01:11.740 She also happens to have written a couple of years ago

00:01:14.160 the book Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother,

00:01:17.900 talking about the difference between her approach

00:01:21.000 and the approach of many Chinese moms.

00:01:23.000 And she says that that can include people who are not Chinese

00:01:25.520 and more Western parents who are more like,

00:01:27.900 protect little Johnny's feelings.

00:01:30.440 She's got really fun parenting thoughts

00:01:32.200 and she took a beating for some of them, 1.00

00:01:33.460 but she's really honest and owns who she is.

00:01:35.680 So you're going to like that piece of the conversation.

00:01:38.060 She also happens to have predicted Donald Trump's win.

00:01:41.680 She understands one thing that most people don't,

00:01:43.760 and that's tribes, tribalism.

00:01:45.940 She wrote a whole book on it

00:01:47.040 and has a very interesting view on

00:01:49.500 how we got to where we are as this country

00:01:51.440 and whether we're going to go more tribal

00:01:53.540 as things go on now that Trump is lost

00:01:56.440 and Biden's going to be sworn in.

00:01:58.360 So this is somebody who's at an elite university.

00:02:01.240 She's going to talk about the partisanship there,

00:02:03.080 what it's like to be a conservative on Yale campus.

00:02:06.000 Can you imagine?

00:02:06.960 She's got some thoughts on how things have changed

00:02:08.660 from just a few years ago,

00:02:09.820 and I think you're going to love her.

00:02:11.760 We'll get to her in one second. 0.98

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00:03:40.880 Amy Chua, how are you?

00:03:43.040 I'm great, Megan.

00:03:44.240 Thank you so much for having me.

00:03:46.040 I am delighted to be speaking with you.

00:03:48.760 I'm such a fan of yours.

00:03:50.780 I always have been ever since you came out

00:03:52.520 with Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother.

00:03:53.880 And I thought this is one brave woman.

00:03:56.860 I loved it because you were getting so much shit

00:03:58.640 and you were like, yeah, I don't care.

00:03:59.860 This is how I feel.

00:04:01.360 That's how it was on the outside.

00:04:02.820 But that's how it was on the outside.

00:04:05.400 But yes, that's basically me.

00:04:07.020 We met for the first time in person

00:04:09.280 when I was doing a profile on J.D. Vance

00:04:11.420 and I went to Yale Law School to talk to you

00:04:13.340 as the person who had encouraged him

00:04:15.360 as his professor to write that memoir.

00:04:17.980 And now we've become friends.

00:04:20.160 But I'm just so inspired by your toughness.

00:04:23.380 You are one tough M ever. 0.93

00:04:26.900 You are.

00:04:28.260 Coming from you, that means so much.

00:04:30.240 I mean, obviously, I'm a huge fan of yours

00:04:33.040 and I would say the same thing.

00:04:34.580 But yeah, it'll be fun to talk about this.

00:04:36.740 I don't even I don't even see myself that way.

00:04:39.300 But kind of looking back, it does seem like

00:04:41.820 yeah, it does seem like I'm still standing.

00:04:45.140 Yeah, exactly.

00:04:46.260 And you're just you know,

00:04:47.160 you're exactly what we need right now,

00:04:48.960 which is somebody who is unapologetic

00:04:50.540 for how she sees the world.

00:04:52.520 And and unless we get more Amy Chua's in the world, 0.99

00:04:55.860 we're going to lose these bizarre cultural battles

00:04:59.060 that I won't even say we're fighting.

00:05:01.240 It's more like rational people have surrendered out of fear.

00:05:04.520 We need to start fighting.

00:05:06.240 Yeah, it's starting.

00:05:07.240 People are starting to fight.

00:05:08.460 But we need more more numbers and more just toughness,

00:05:11.660 mental toughness in the world.

00:05:12.720 All right.

00:05:12.960 So before we get to all that,

00:05:14.200 because I definitely want to ask you

00:05:15.360 about Battle Helm of the Tiger Mother.

00:05:17.380 It's it's exactly the opposite of my own parenting style,

00:05:20.040 but it's it's my wannabe parenting style.

00:05:22.240 So you're going to help me.

00:05:23.140 OK, we'll get to that.

00:05:25.780 Let's start with tribalism.

00:05:27.500 You wrote a book in 2018 on tribalism

00:05:29.580 called Political Tribes, Group Instinct

00:05:31.860 and the Fate of Nations, which was prescient.

00:05:36.200 And it not only obviously we were in the middle

00:05:38.200 of the Trump administration then,

00:05:39.680 but it foresaw where things would go,

00:05:42.840 including the challenging of electoral results.

00:05:45.800 And like that here we are.

00:05:48.520 So you accurately diagnosed,

00:05:51.100 I think, what is happening to the United States right now,

00:05:54.320 right before he was elected during his term

00:05:56.660 and now in 2020.

00:05:58.460 And I want to talk to you about how we got here

00:06:00.500 and where we go from here,

00:06:01.680 because it doesn't sound too promising.

00:06:04.240 All right.

00:06:04.740 So your your theory is that a toxic mix

00:06:07.920 of identity politics and demographic transformation

00:06:11.320 is threatening our democracy.

00:06:14.140 So break that down.

00:06:15.480 Should we start with?

00:06:16.440 Well, where should we start?

00:06:17.360 Yeah, no, that's actually perfect.

00:06:18.560 So so you have it exactly right.

00:06:20.500 I mean, I'm proud that I did correctly predict

00:06:24.220 the Trump election, which is pretty amazing

00:06:27.280 because teaching at the most liberal college campus,

00:06:29.880 you know, everybody had the Hillary parties 0.88

00:06:32.660 all ready to go.

00:06:33.620 And I just knew that there was so much underground

00:06:35.780 that nobody was allowed to talk about

00:06:38.320 that they were going to get it wrong.

00:06:40.300 But yeah, that's kind of what I try to do

00:06:42.960 is be above the fray

00:06:44.940 and kind of to diagnose the problem.

00:06:47.920 Why are we at this moment

00:06:50.040 and seeing everything that we're seeing?

00:06:51.840 Because if you can't

00:06:53.000 if you don't know the causes of the problem,

00:06:55.220 then you can't solve it.

00:06:56.340 And yes, I think there are two big factors

00:06:59.600 that explain this

00:07:01.740 this kind of just hatred

00:07:03.720 that we have everywhere in this country.

00:07:06.020 And the first is

00:07:07.520 this massive demographic transformation

00:07:10.580 that we've seen in the last 50 years.

00:07:13.500 So basically, for most of the America

00:07:16.520 the United States 200 year history,

00:07:19.220 you know, the country was dominated economically

00:07:21.820 and politically and culturally by a white majority.

00:07:25.360 And we can debate what white meant

00:07:27.560 and that, you know, different people,

00:07:29.180 Canada's white at different times. 0.79

00:07:30.860 But that's basically the dynamic.

00:07:33.040 And when that happens,

00:07:34.820 when one group is so overwhelmingly dominant,

00:07:37.200 a lot of terrible things can happen

00:07:38.760 like slavery and oppression.

00:07:41.000 But that white majority can also afford

00:07:43.200 to be more generous and inclusive.

00:07:46.380 And that's actually what the white Protestants did 0.90

00:07:48.760 in the 50s and 60s and 70s

00:07:50.640 when they essentially voluntarily

00:07:53.000 opened up the Ivy League

00:07:54.320 to more African-Americans and minorities

00:07:57.080 because they just kind of felt

00:07:58.040 that was the right thing to do.

00:07:59.760 Right now, it's completely different

00:08:02.280 because for the first time in U.S. history,

00:08:05.520 whites are on the verge 0.68

00:08:06.720 of losing their majority status

00:08:09.180 at the national level.

00:08:11.820 The Census Bureau says it will happen around 2044.

00:08:15.340 You know, there's some debate

00:08:16.900 about what it will look like,

00:08:18.280 but it's already happened

00:08:19.320 in places like California and D.C.

00:08:22.180 and Texas and tons of big cities.

00:08:25.160 Non-Hispanic whites are no longer the majority.

00:08:28.480 And why is that important, Megan?

00:08:30.520 Because studies show

00:08:32.160 that it's when people feel threatened

00:08:35.060 that they retreat into tribalism.

00:08:36.940 And at this moment,

00:08:37.820 it's not just minorities who feel threatened.

00:08:40.720 Whites feel threatened. 0.95

00:08:42.800 It's not just Jews 0.99

00:08:45.120 and Muslim Americans who feel threatened,

00:08:47.600 but Christians feel threatened.

00:08:49.560 So, you know, with Donald Trump in the White House,

00:08:52.220 women feel threatened. 0.98

00:08:53.160 With the Me Too movement,

00:08:54.280 men feel threatened.

00:08:55.260 Latinos, Asians, straights, gays, 0.99

00:08:57.280 everybody at this moment feels threatened.

00:08:58.940 And again, it's when people feel threatened

00:09:01.980 that they retreat

00:09:02.900 into this kind of us versus them tribalism.

00:09:06.280 And that's why you're seeing this fracturing,

00:09:08.440 this splintering on both the right and the left.

00:09:11.880 I mean, if you look at the Democrats,

00:09:13.240 they're just far apart.

00:09:14.580 There's so many different pieces.

00:09:16.200 And same with the Republicans.

00:09:17.960 You know, there's barely a cohesive group

00:09:20.180 called the Republicans.

00:09:21.460 And that's partly because

00:09:23.120 of this massive demographic change.

00:09:24.860 So that's one big factor.

00:09:27.440 And before we get to number two,

00:09:28.940 so tribalism and, you know,

00:09:31.260 I think people understand a bit

00:09:33.040 that we feel more tribal.

00:09:34.420 We feel more dug into our respective groups than ever.

00:09:37.740 But in general, you talk about tribalism

00:09:40.120 and how it could potentially be a good thing,

00:09:42.380 but it could also be a bad thing.

00:09:44.460 And one of the reasons we do it

00:09:45.920 is because A, we're humans

00:09:47.620 and B, it feels good, right?

00:09:49.940 So just talk about before we get to number two

00:09:52.200 and the reason why we're becoming more tribal.

00:09:54.340 Why is tribalism such a thing for us as humans?

00:09:59.820 Well, so first of all, it's just in us.

00:10:02.000 We are biologically predisposed to be tribal,

00:10:05.020 just like fellow primates.

00:10:06.340 And you could obviously imagine

00:10:08.240 all the evolutionary reasons why,

00:10:10.320 you know, it was always better to have a family

00:10:12.680 and a group and a tribe

00:10:13.800 as opposed to being on your own.

00:10:16.640 And you just, you put it perfectly.

00:10:19.060 There's nothing inherently wrong with tribalism.

00:10:22.740 Families can be very tribal.

00:10:24.300 Well, I will be the first to admit

00:10:25.860 that I'm a very tribal person,

00:10:27.200 very loyal to my friends.

00:10:29.120 Sports is very tribal and it's fun.

00:10:31.760 The real problem is when tribalism

00:10:35.900 takes over a political system.

00:10:38.000 That's really the problem.

00:10:40.260 Because then policy and facts just don't matter.

00:10:44.420 You basically just,

00:10:45.500 you just want to cling to your side.

00:10:47.380 You see everything through your side's lens

00:10:49.760 and you want to take down the other side no matter what.

00:10:53.760 And you could see that, you know, all my friends,

00:10:55.600 I mean, Yale again is the most progressive place.

00:10:58.080 So for four years, all my friends are like,

00:11:00.540 oh my God, look at this scandal.

00:11:02.240 This is the end of Donald Trump, you know,

00:11:04.620 and you check out the polls, no change.

00:11:07.980 It's just, it's like people are dug in

00:11:10.240 and even the pandemic has been tribalized.

00:11:13.640 I mean, for me to figure out

00:11:14.740 whether a certain drug works,

00:11:16.140 I have to flip between Fox and MSNBC

00:11:18.400 to see what they're saying and, you know,

00:11:20.260 take an average.

00:11:21.140 But that's really where we are now,

00:11:23.240 where the danger is that

00:11:25.740 we can't talk to each other anymore.

00:11:27.840 You know, it's not just like Republicans or see,

00:11:32.180 it's not that people see, you know,

00:11:34.120 people who voted for the other side

00:11:35.700 as just, you know, people who are wrong

00:11:37.500 that they want to argue with.

00:11:39.040 We're in a situation now where we see people

00:11:41.080 who voted for the other side as enemies,

00:11:43.420 as evil murderers, you know,

00:11:45.720 people who harm people.

00:11:47.140 And that's really dangerous.

00:11:48.700 It's a recipe for civil war if we don't fix it,

00:11:50.860 if you view half the country as un-American.

00:11:54.780 So this is why when people say,

00:11:56.720 oh, you know, if Trump loses

00:11:58.900 or now that Trump's lost,

00:12:00.760 the country's going to go back to normal.

00:12:02.840 We're going to settle down.

00:12:04.920 I imagine you're thinking, no.

00:12:08.200 Yeah, crazy.

00:12:09.220 I mean, all the dynamics are still there.

00:12:11.100 And the reason I predicted that Trump would win

00:12:13.280 is because, I mean, while clearly his personality

00:12:16.620 had a lot to do with it,

00:12:18.640 you know, a bit like Hugo Chavez

00:12:20.540 in a totally different way,

00:12:22.180 you know, very effective.

00:12:24.960 But they were just conditions,

00:12:26.600 things that were already in the United States.

00:12:29.040 So, you know, that phenomenon

00:12:30.340 was just waiting to happen.

00:12:31.500 And those facts and conditions

00:12:33.960 are still existing today,

00:12:35.580 even with the change in leadership.

00:12:37.740 All right.

00:12:37.860 So we were primed for someone like Trump

00:12:40.200 to come along, number one,

00:12:41.920 because we're getting more tribal.

00:12:43.940 And the reasons are, number one,

00:12:45.360 this massive demographic transformation,

00:12:47.620 becoming a minority-majority country.

00:12:49.760 Everyone feels threatened.

00:12:51.360 The whites, I know in your book, 1.00

00:12:53.300 you cite the fact that 50-plus percent

00:12:55.280 of whites believe, quote,

00:12:56.960 whites have replaced blacks 1.00

00:12:58.820 as the primary victims of discrimination.

00:13:01.600 So we're all retreating

00:13:03.120 to our little mini-tribes

00:13:04.860 and not feeling very generous

00:13:07.640 toward other people.

00:13:08.820 But the other big reason you cite

00:13:10.540 is cosmopolitan elites,

00:13:14.140 the coastal rich people

00:13:16.900 who look down

00:13:19.280 on the working-class people of America.

00:13:22.500 Do I have it right?

00:13:23.580 You do have it right.

00:13:24.600 I'm so impressed, Megan.

00:13:25.740 And of course, this is the group

00:13:26.920 that, you know, we more or less belong to.

00:13:29.020 So I understand.

00:13:30.960 But yeah, just kind of backing up quickly

00:13:33.380 for most of my 25 years as a professor,

00:13:35.820 I've written about developing countries

00:13:37.420 and foreign policy.

00:13:38.600 And I always said,

00:13:39.700 the United States is so lucky

00:13:41.240 that we don't have this one terrible problem

00:13:43.320 that I called a market-dominant minority.

00:13:46.500 And this is this weird thing

00:13:48.100 where like in Indonesia,

00:13:49.700 you have like this 3% tiny Chinese minority.

00:13:53.720 So they're not Indonesian, right? 0.93

00:13:55.020 Like the 80 million people

00:13:56.840 are mostly Indonesian,

00:13:57.920 but there's this tiny 3% minority

00:14:00.220 that is ethnically Chinese.

00:14:02.160 And they're viewed as these arrogant people

00:14:04.380 that control everything.

00:14:05.860 And they talk their own way.

00:14:07.940 They marry their own people. 0.99

00:14:09.220 And they just look down

00:14:10.220 on all the poor people.

00:14:11.720 And what I wrote, you know, in 2000

00:14:13.940 is that when you have that kind of a dynamic,

00:14:16.600 when you have elections,

00:14:18.180 democratic elections,

00:14:19.440 you don't get what Americans always expect,

00:14:21.660 which is peace and prosperity.

00:14:23.160 But you get like demagogues coming in

00:14:25.800 and saying, vote for me.

00:14:26.980 It's all these people's fault.

00:14:28.520 They're not real Americans. 1.00

00:14:29.640 And you get scapegoating

00:14:31.520 and then you get this kind of populism.

00:14:34.060 And that's basically, you know,

00:14:35.760 for years we didn't have that

00:14:36.880 because we don't, you know,

00:14:37.920 we don't have a little minority

00:14:39.140 controlling the U.S. economy.

00:14:40.820 It's not true that Jews 0.99

00:14:42.280 control the U.S. economy.

00:14:44.240 They're disproportionately successful

00:14:45.740 as are, you know, Asian Americans,

00:14:48.260 but they don't control the economy.

00:14:49.800 But today for the first time,

00:14:51.860 because of something we'll get to,

00:14:54.220 I think the way our education system

00:14:55.740 is broken,

00:14:56.380 there's just so little mobility now.

00:14:59.840 And, you know, you have,

00:15:01.720 what we see is basically

00:15:02.880 this emergence of a group

00:15:04.680 that I call cosmopolitan elites.

00:15:07.020 They mostly live on the coast,

00:15:08.440 but also in cities like Atlanta

00:15:10.200 or Chicago

00:15:10.860 that are viewed

00:15:12.500 by the rest of this country

00:15:13.780 as these arrogant people

00:15:15.520 that care about the poor in Africa 0.77

00:15:18.420 more than they care about

00:15:19.380 the poor in Appalachia,

00:15:20.660 whom they disdain,

00:15:22.340 and who kind of go

00:15:23.340 to the same private schools

00:15:24.720 and use their own politically

00:15:26.080 correct vocabulary

00:15:27.080 and control Hollywood

00:15:28.800 and Wall Street

00:15:29.580 and Silicon Valley and D.C.

00:15:31.940 And I do see that the election

00:15:34.140 in 2016 followed this prediction

00:15:38.000 that I actually said.

00:15:39.560 I said, you're going to see

00:15:40.600 this backlash

00:15:41.320 against this little group.

00:15:43.520 And it's not ethnic or racial.

00:15:46.280 Like Barack Obama,

00:15:47.720 J.D. Vance wrote this,

00:15:48.700 is the classic,

00:15:50.060 is viewed actually

00:15:50.740 as the most cosmopolitan elite.

00:15:52.500 He sounds like a professor.

00:15:53.860 He dresses so elegantly.

00:15:56.700 He eats kale.

00:15:58.620 Right?

00:15:59.180 Healthy foods.

00:16:00.500 And so it's an identifiable group

00:16:03.940 that is viewed

00:16:05.040 as very, very kind of selfish

00:16:07.540 and scornful

00:16:08.540 of the rest of the country.

00:16:10.220 And I think part

00:16:11.280 of the 2016 election

00:16:12.400 was President Trump

00:16:14.980 tapped right into that

00:16:16.720 and said,

00:16:17.320 look, let's take back our country

00:16:18.720 for real Americans.

00:16:20.040 Let's make America great again.

00:16:21.360 And it's so,

00:16:23.320 it's not dependent on race,

00:16:25.240 you point out Barack Obama,

00:16:26.480 and it's not dependent on party

00:16:28.140 because I would say Mitt Romney

00:16:29.640 falls directly into this group.

00:16:31.720 You got it.

00:16:32.520 You got it.

00:16:33.100 Yes.

00:16:33.480 Actually, probably most people

00:16:34.840 that you and I know,

00:16:36.080 it's just by virtue

00:16:40.880 of the schools that we attend

00:16:42.540 and the fact that,

00:16:43.860 you know,

00:16:44.540 ethnic groups are often defined

00:16:46.160 by intermarriage.

00:16:47.200 So if you have two groups

00:16:48.660 like black and white Zimbabweans 0.98

00:16:50.660 that don't intermarry at all,

00:16:52.700 that's like an ethnic difference.

00:16:55.160 Like Chinese and Indonesians, 0.89

00:16:57.420 they don't really marry

00:16:58.920 because one is Muslim 0.91

00:16:59.880 and one is ethnic Chinese.

00:17:01.580 Well, the sort of whites have, 0.99

00:17:05.780 the difference between poor whites now,

00:17:08.480 you know, Appalachian whites, 0.99

00:17:09.840 rural,

00:17:10.700 essentially President Trump's base,

00:17:12.600 and coastal cosmopolitan whites,

00:17:14.900 that difference has hardened so much.

00:17:17.640 There was so little interaction

00:17:19.060 and so little intermarriage

00:17:20.500 between these two groups of whites

00:17:21.940 that it's basically

00:17:23.120 what social scientists

00:17:24.380 would call an ethnic divide.

00:17:26.120 I mean, there's that much difference.

00:17:27.300 It's much more normal for,

00:17:29.380 let's say,

00:17:30.120 a Caucasian who attended

00:17:31.820 Columbia Law School

00:17:33.420 or NYU Law School

00:17:34.660 to marry somebody

00:17:36.140 who's Nigerian-American

00:17:37.400 or South Asian

00:17:38.280 of a similar educational background

00:17:40.200 than it is for that white person

00:17:41.980 to marry another white person

00:17:43.720 from, say, rural Kentucky.

00:17:47.000 So why would they go

00:17:49.200 for a person like Trump

00:17:50.660 who is very wealthy,

00:17:53.420 flying around in helicopters,

00:17:54.780 has his name on buildings,

00:17:56.180 went to Wharton?

00:17:57.400 What is it about him specifically?

00:18:00.180 If you just look at Donald Trump

00:18:01.920 and why all of my friends

00:18:04.360 are cosmopolitan elite friends,

00:18:05.940 just despise him,

00:18:07.160 there you have your answer.

00:18:08.940 He actually kind of culturally

00:18:10.720 and sociologically

00:18:11.740 doesn't act like

00:18:13.320 a cosmopolitan elite.

00:18:14.720 The way he dresses people,

00:18:16.040 made fun of that red tide

00:18:17.380 that hung too low.

00:18:18.780 He eats McDonald's

00:18:20.120 and, you know,

00:18:20.680 these taco bowls

00:18:22.300 and he deliberately plays up

00:18:25.040 this political incorrectness.

00:18:26.740 You know, so,

00:18:27.180 so, you know, again,

00:18:28.280 a lot of liberals,

00:18:29.040 they're like,

00:18:29.460 oh my gosh,

00:18:30.200 he said this,

00:18:31.040 you know,

00:18:31.560 he's, that's sexist, 0.93

00:18:32.680 that's racist.

00:18:33.460 But what happened

00:18:34.360 is just a lot of people

00:18:35.580 in the middle of the country

00:18:36.840 said, wait a second,

00:18:37.960 that's kind of how I talk

00:18:39.200 and I'm always getting

00:18:40.300 called out now

00:18:41.060 for being racist or sexist.

00:18:42.480 I'm using the wrong word.

00:18:43.560 I relate to that.

00:18:45.000 You know,

00:18:45.160 and he liked

00:18:46.000 world WWE wrestling

00:18:48.300 and NASCAR.

00:18:49.720 These are things

00:18:50.260 that are anathema

00:18:51.240 to cosmopolitan elites.

00:18:52.700 So, you know,

00:18:53.420 even the way

00:18:54.320 in which he was rich,

00:18:55.640 you know,

00:18:56.080 displayed the gold

00:18:57.280 and Melania Trump 1.00

00:18:58.700 and it's, again,

00:19:00.200 cosmopolitan elites

00:19:01.020 don't realize

00:19:01.820 how kind of intolerant

00:19:04.360 and snobby we are.

00:19:05.980 Everyone's like,

00:19:06.500 oh, that's so gauche,

00:19:08.300 you know,

00:19:08.700 you know,

00:19:09.240 those colors that,

00:19:10.620 you know,

00:19:11.140 so I think culturally

00:19:13.040 he and he,

00:19:15.080 I think he cultivated this.

00:19:16.280 He's actually much more similar

00:19:17.760 to his base,

00:19:20.140 you know,

00:19:20.440 to blue collar workers,

00:19:21.700 the way he talks

00:19:22.520 and rambles on

00:19:24.020 and kind of locker room

00:19:25.940 and what he eats.

00:19:27.540 Yeah,

00:19:27.680 I think it really fits actually.

00:19:29.620 So they're,

00:19:29.960 they're the,

00:19:30.980 the masses

00:19:31.680 who we're talking about.

00:19:32.820 They're not anti-wealth.

00:19:34.900 They're,

00:19:35.080 they really are anti-elitism.

00:19:38.300 Completely.

00:19:39.080 And this is another

00:19:39.900 big irony.

00:19:42.140 I think,

00:19:43.600 I think we'll come to this,

00:19:44.620 but many of the people

00:19:46.220 I think most in favor

00:19:47.200 of socialism

00:19:48.140 that I know

00:19:49.420 actually come

00:19:50.380 from very privileged backgrounds.

00:19:51.760 They're,

00:19:52.180 they're living in their

00:19:53.260 hedge fund parents'

00:19:54.960 huge loft.

00:19:55.840 So they have time

00:19:56.900 to be advocating

00:19:58.140 for socialism.

00:19:58.860 with them.

00:20:00.320 So,

00:20:00.940 whereas a lot of

00:20:02.220 both working class people

00:20:03.880 where,

00:20:04.440 you know,

00:20:04.640 they want a fair shot.

00:20:05.820 I mean,

00:20:05.920 a lot of people

00:20:06.500 want more,

00:20:07.580 better redistribution,

00:20:09.020 but no,

00:20:09.560 they,

00:20:09.820 they want the American dream.

00:20:11.340 They,

00:20:11.880 they want the chance

00:20:12.940 to become like somebody

00:20:14.080 like Donald Trump.

00:20:16.140 And,

00:20:16.700 you know,

00:20:16.880 same with immigrants 0.99

00:20:17.780 and immigrants kids.

00:20:18.920 That's another,

00:20:19.840 I've had so many students

00:20:20.840 whisper to me,

00:20:21.700 you know,

00:20:22.240 on campus now,

00:20:23.300 I,

00:20:23.720 you know,

00:20:23.880 I had a Iraqi American student

00:20:25.480 whose dad lived

00:20:26.780 in a refugee camp

00:20:27.900 and she was fairly poor 0.99

00:20:29.000 and she would love

00:20:30.420 to be a partner

00:20:31.120 in a law firm

00:20:31.740 and go to Wall Street

00:20:32.560 or maybe become a judge.

00:20:34.140 And she's being told

00:20:35.220 by all her progressive friends,

00:20:37.260 no,

00:20:37.700 that's buying into the hierarchy.

00:20:39.260 That's too elitist.

00:20:40.500 You know,

00:20:40.700 you need to be protesting

00:20:41.820 and being an activist.

00:20:43.160 Oh my God.

00:20:43.640 I know.

00:20:44.320 And so she's whispering to me,

00:20:45.600 what am I going to do?

00:20:46.260 I always thought the way

00:20:47.280 to,

00:20:47.520 to change America

00:20:48.780 was if somebody like me,

00:20:50.160 you know,

00:20:50.800 somebody from a poor country

00:20:52.420 could rise

00:20:53.160 and actually be prominent

00:20:54.360 and influential

00:20:55.080 what am I going to do?

00:20:57.060 No,

00:20:57.360 go get yourself arrested. 0.89

00:20:58.600 That's the way it's done.

00:20:59.800 Be a Jane Fonda.

00:21:00.940 Get arrested

00:21:01.340 and make sure everybody

00:21:02.200 writes an article about it.

00:21:03.540 There's room for all types

00:21:04.820 is my point.

00:21:06.960 Well,

00:21:07.400 it's funny because,

00:21:08.000 you know,

00:21:08.220 when you see,

00:21:09.120 to your point,

00:21:10.120 the mugshots

00:21:11.020 of these people

00:21:12.220 who get arrested

00:21:12.840 at some of the protests

00:21:13.760 and riots

00:21:14.580 that we saw over the summer,

00:21:16.320 it's nine times out of 10

00:21:17.520 is white women 1.00

00:21:19.220 in their mid to young 20s

00:21:21.780 who come from

00:21:23.000 very privileged backgrounds.

00:21:24.020 And they look like

00:21:25.980 they're hot messes. 0.92

00:21:26.820 I mean,

00:21:26.980 half of them have like,

00:21:27.860 you know,

00:21:28.140 a black guy

00:21:29.320 or,

00:21:29.740 you know,

00:21:29.840 they look like

00:21:30.320 they've been on drugs.

00:21:31.040 I don't know

00:21:31.320 what the story is,

00:21:32.100 but it's almost never,

00:21:35.220 you certainly don't see,

00:21:36.420 you know,

00:21:36.700 a lot of black people

00:21:37.820 getting arrested.

00:21:38.380 It's these white, 0.78

00:21:40.000 educated,

00:21:41.540 rich liberals

00:21:42.180 because some people

00:21:43.240 will do a deep dive

00:21:44.140 on the background,

00:21:45.140 the economic background

00:21:45.980 of a lot of these women 0.96

00:21:46.760 and they do,

00:21:47.880 to a person,

00:21:49.020 come from rich backgrounds.

00:21:50.980 Yeah,

00:21:51.180 a lot of people

00:21:51.880 who have nine to fives,

00:21:53.360 kind of working class people

00:21:54.520 actually can't take off time.

00:21:55.960 They're going to be fired.

00:21:57.280 You know,

00:21:57.500 so there's actually

00:21:58.480 a sort of a simple

00:22:00.100 economic explanation for it.

00:22:03.360 But yeah,

00:22:04.360 it's,

00:22:04.660 it's,

00:22:05.120 there are a lot of ironies.

00:22:06.660 Well,

00:22:07.120 this is an interesting thought.

00:22:08.660 I,

00:22:09.120 we talk a lot about the media

00:22:10.260 on this,

00:22:10.980 on this podcast

00:22:11.680 and for obvious reasons,

00:22:13.500 but one of the things

00:22:14.920 that we haven't touched on

00:22:16.740 is their elitism.

00:22:18.760 You know,

00:22:18.940 their bias is right there

00:22:20.460 in our faces

00:22:21.220 and we know it

00:22:22.000 and we talk about

00:22:23.160 what happened to CNN

00:22:24.020 and how it's,

00:22:24.760 it's totally anti-Trump

00:22:25.780 and it's very biased

00:22:26.560 without disclosing it,

00:22:27.640 without owning it,

00:22:28.340 I should say.

00:22:29.980 But this is another strain.

00:22:32.140 You know,

00:22:32.400 one of the most viral clips

00:22:33.880 of the entire election season

00:22:35.320 was a segment hosted

00:22:36.780 by Don Lemon

00:22:37.880 with two pundits.

00:22:39.380 It was Rick Wilson

00:22:40.680 and Wajahat Ali

00:22:42.300 and they were

00:22:45.180 disdainful

00:22:47.240 of flyover country

00:22:48.860 of Trump voters.

00:22:50.220 They were making fun of them

00:22:51.740 with Southern accents.

00:22:53.840 Oh,

00:22:54.280 those Republicans

00:22:55.520 are sort of imitating them

00:22:58.000 going like,

00:22:58.440 oh,

00:22:58.600 you know,

00:22:58.960 Biden

00:22:59.440 and the Democrats

00:23:00.920 with their,

00:23:01.620 their maps

00:23:02.660 and their math

00:23:04.300 and they were hysterical

00:23:06.520 laughing

00:23:07.340 at the other side

00:23:09.120 of the country

00:23:09.460 who we now know

00:23:10.060 is almost split

00:23:10.880 right down the middle,

00:23:11.620 74 million people.

00:23:13.800 How big a factor

00:23:14.460 do you think that was

00:23:15.280 the continuation

00:23:15.900 of the deplorables attitude?

00:23:18.920 I think it's a big factor.

00:23:20.820 I mean,

00:23:21.140 I didn't see that clip,

00:23:22.460 but it's,

00:23:23.300 it's,

00:23:25.300 it's just,

00:23:25.980 it's actually just

00:23:26.580 such a poor political

00:23:28.240 and strategic move.

00:23:30.140 You know,

00:23:30.740 even if you're just,

00:23:31.720 forget about

00:23:32.180 just common decency

00:23:33.460 and,

00:23:33.900 and,

00:23:34.700 and just being more generous

00:23:36.120 towards fellow human beings.

00:23:37.520 But yeah,

00:23:38.320 I think it's a really,

00:23:39.860 you know,

00:23:40.460 we all know human nature.

00:23:41.600 Like,

00:23:41.840 you just have to think,

00:23:42.760 if you hear somebody

00:23:43.820 talking about you

00:23:44.760 like that,

00:23:45.640 how do you feel?

00:23:46.420 Do you feel like,

00:23:46.960 you know what,

00:23:47.200 I want to convert 0.75

00:23:47.840 and be on their side

00:23:49.280 or,

00:23:50.320 or,

00:23:50.580 and that's the danger

00:23:51.440 of tribalism.

00:23:52.240 You,

00:23:52.580 when you hear the way

00:23:54.100 people are talking about you,

00:23:55.560 you get angry inside

00:23:56.840 and it just,

00:23:57.920 everything spirals downwards.

00:24:00.160 More with Amy

00:24:00.940 in just one minute.

00:24:01.680 But first,

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00:25:54.760 This is actually

00:25:55.700 one of my problems

00:25:56.540 in these universities

00:25:57.940 who are kicking out

00:25:59.740 incoming freshmen

00:26:00.700 for some sin,

00:26:02.600 some loser

00:26:03.440 in the person's

00:26:04.400 social circle,

00:26:05.560 dug up

00:26:06.400 and forwarded on

00:26:07.780 to ruin their

00:26:08.620 academic careers

00:26:09.340 before they get

00:26:09.860 started on them,

00:26:11.040 you know,

00:26:11.200 because now we're

00:26:11.600 in that phase of life

00:26:12.560 where we're supposed

00:26:13.040 to rat out our neighbors

00:26:14.140 for any perceived

00:26:15.200 misstep on race,

00:26:17.140 on gender,

00:26:17.760 on identity,

00:26:18.880 all of this stuff.

00:26:19.820 So you have a young person

00:26:20.840 who made a mistake

00:26:21.460 when she was 14,

00:26:22.660 and it comes out

00:26:23.520 when she's 17 or 18

00:26:24.500 as she's about to go off

00:26:25.460 to some esteemed university,

00:26:27.400 and the universities

00:26:28.540 more and more

00:26:29.180 are pulling the admission

00:26:30.920 of these young kids.

00:26:32.220 what a loss

00:26:33.700 of a teachable moment

00:26:34.780 and exactly the opposite

00:26:36.680 is actually being taught,

00:26:37.860 which is what person

00:26:39.500 who loses their entire future

00:26:41.400 at a university

00:26:42.180 they worked hard to get into

00:26:43.220 because they're being told

00:26:44.900 they're a racist

00:26:45.680 because of some stupid comment 0.67

00:26:46.920 they said,

00:26:47.600 what person then says,

00:26:48.960 you know what,

00:26:49.300 I'm with you,

00:26:49.980 I'm genuinely on your side now,

00:26:51.600 I'm listening to you

00:26:52.480 and I want to be more like you

00:26:53.780 and listen more

00:26:54.560 and read what you want me to read,

00:26:56.080 totally open-minded to you.

00:26:57.420 No, exactly the opposite happens.

00:26:59.360 Exactly, I totally agree

00:27:01.540 and it's, I don't know,

00:27:02.900 I mean, it's, you know,

00:27:04.560 some of the most moving stories

00:27:06.340 that give me the most hope

00:27:07.720 for America

00:27:08.240 are about redemption.

00:27:10.140 I mean, that's what

00:27:10.480 we should be looking for.

00:27:12.080 There's this guy,

00:27:12.880 I can't remember his name,

00:27:13.680 his last name is Black,

00:27:14.780 I think,

00:27:15.080 and I think he's the

00:27:15.840 maybe like grandson

00:27:17.660 of the Grand Duke

00:27:19.300 Kuplex Klan person 0.94

00:27:20.780 or something like that

00:27:21.580 and he went through

00:27:22.940 this metamorphosis in college.

00:27:24.980 Basically, he went in

00:27:25.900 this rabid, you know,

00:27:27.880 neo-Nazi

00:27:28.720 and some roommate,

00:27:31.760 not knowing,

00:27:32.420 either invited him to Shabbat

00:27:33.760 and then he met a young woman.

00:27:36.020 Yes, I had him on my show at NBC.

00:27:37.860 I had both of these guys on my show.

00:27:39.780 Exactly, and that's what

00:27:40.640 we should be encouraging

00:27:41.480 and you're right

00:27:41.980 and you start rooting them out

00:27:43.380 and also,

00:27:44.500 anybody who has children,

00:27:46.880 you know, this is a,

00:27:47.840 this is just,

00:27:48.400 this, I actually think

00:27:49.060 it's not sustainable

00:27:49.800 because at a certain point,

00:27:51.300 at a certain point,

00:27:52.940 everybody's going to look

00:27:53.740 at their own kids

00:27:54.560 and realize,

00:27:55.220 oops, is it over now?

00:27:56.820 He did this stupid thing

00:27:57.920 at 13, is it over?

00:27:59.220 And there's got to be

00:28:00.340 a self-correction mechanism.

00:28:02.620 Okay, of course,

00:28:03.780 because it's like,

00:28:04.440 of course,

00:28:04.780 all of us make stupid mistakes

00:28:06.180 and we just didn't grow up

00:28:08.540 in the era of social media

00:28:09.720 and this weird,

00:28:10.860 you know,

00:28:11.340 snitch on your neighbor mentality.

00:28:13.240 But by the way,

00:28:14.080 to your point

00:28:14.920 about the great grandson

00:28:16.720 of the KKK Grand Wizard, 0.94

00:28:19.020 so he came on

00:28:19.940 and with the guy

00:28:21.520 who helped him

00:28:22.160 who was an Orthodox Jewish guy

00:28:24.400 and he just started

00:28:25.680 inviting the descendant

00:28:27.640 of the Grand Wizard

00:28:28.540 to dinner at his house,

00:28:30.140 to Shabbat dinner.

00:28:31.120 And I asked him,

00:28:32.000 so did you try

00:28:33.060 to disabuse him

00:28:33.900 of his notions,

00:28:34.660 you know,

00:28:34.880 about Jewish people,

00:28:35.720 about what,

00:28:36.120 about Black people?

00:28:37.460 And he said,

00:28:38.200 not at all.

00:28:39.160 No.

00:28:40.020 We just talked

00:28:40.780 about life

00:28:41.640 and love

00:28:42.160 and college.

00:28:43.780 And over time,

00:28:45.360 the guy just came

00:28:46.940 to the realization

00:28:47.740 that he had been fed

00:28:49.080 a bill of goods,

00:28:50.280 that it wasn't true

00:28:51.660 what he'd been taught

00:28:52.580 about minority groups

00:28:53.680 like Jewish people 0.98

00:28:54.640 and came to that conclusion

00:28:56.120 for himself

00:28:56.680 out of the love

00:28:58.380 and kindness

00:28:59.300 and friendship

00:29:00.420 he was receiving

00:29:01.280 from someone

00:29:01.940 in that group.

00:29:03.560 Exactly.

00:29:03.920 That's exactly your point,

00:29:05.240 that if you really want

00:29:06.260 to change people

00:29:07.120 and persuade people,

00:29:08.740 you don't out them

00:29:09.780 and then target them

00:29:10.620 and then shame them.

00:29:11.740 That's just going

00:29:12.460 to make them entrenched

00:29:13.440 and sometimes go underground

00:29:14.820 and become more radical.

00:29:16.880 And going back

00:29:18.060 to your original question

00:29:19.100 about tribalism,

00:29:19.840 people are like,

00:29:20.760 is this so depressing, Amy?

00:29:22.160 Are we all so tribal?

00:29:23.380 But I have all these studies

00:29:25.400 at the back of the book

00:29:26.220 that are really hopeful

00:29:27.180 that demonstrate

00:29:28.660 kind of scientifically

00:29:30.280 what you were just talking about,

00:29:31.880 that if you can pull people

00:29:33.680 out of their tribes,

00:29:34.540 even just for a short time

00:29:35.660 and say, okay,

00:29:36.200 don't talk about politics,

00:29:37.200 don't talk about this,

00:29:38.340 just talk about your pets

00:29:40.080 and ice cream

00:29:41.040 and pizza

00:29:41.600 and your children

00:29:42.380 and sports,

00:29:44.320 it takes such a short time

00:29:47.360 for humans to connect

00:29:48.920 on a human level.

00:29:51.100 You know, I mean,

00:29:51.540 it's people,

00:29:52.680 I mean, I'm an optimist.

00:29:53.660 I mean, people are basically good,

00:29:55.280 you know,

00:29:55.640 and so, yes,

00:29:57.880 if we really want

00:29:58.740 to bring people together

00:29:59.800 and if you really think

00:30:01.220 the other side is terrible,

00:30:02.280 you want to change their mind,

00:30:03.960 you should be doing

00:30:04.640 exactly what your guest did,

00:30:06.760 which is just don't scream

00:30:08.960 and yell and target and shame,

00:30:10.460 but just try to be a human being.

00:30:13.060 And I think,

00:30:14.120 you know,

00:30:14.320 it's hard not to do it

00:30:15.320 on the other side too.

00:30:16.300 By the way,

00:30:16.600 my smart producer

00:30:17.580 is just letting me know

00:30:18.360 the guest's name

00:30:18.980 was Derek Black.

00:30:20.040 David Duke was his godfather

00:30:21.420 and his father

00:30:23.820 was a grand wizard

00:30:25.160 of the KKK.

00:30:26.040 So, I mean,

00:30:26.340 there's pretty intimate connections

00:30:27.520 to the KKK

00:30:28.220 and he managed

00:30:29.400 to extract himself.

00:30:31.460 But I think it's easy to,

00:30:33.100 you know,

00:30:33.200 having been on the receiving end

00:30:34.760 of that kind of targeting,

00:30:36.160 I think there's also

00:30:38.160 a fight in your own heart

00:30:39.220 not to give in to bitterness,

00:30:41.960 to continue to use

00:30:44.020 a generous lens

00:30:44.920 on the other side

00:30:46.920 that's saying

00:30:47.420 the awful things about you.

00:30:49.000 Because if you don't use

00:30:50.660 the generous lens,

00:30:52.400 then negativity

00:30:53.480 breeds more negativity

00:30:54.880 and, you know,

00:30:56.320 bitterness will set in.

00:30:58.140 And the more you lean

00:30:59.960 into your tribal mentality

00:31:01.320 and the demonization

00:31:02.440 of huge groups of people,

00:31:04.020 the more alienated

00:31:05.240 you're going to be.

00:31:07.160 Yeah, you know,

00:31:07.520 I see you as such

00:31:08.720 a kindred spirit this way

00:31:10.020 because, of course,

00:31:10.880 it's human nature

00:31:11.700 to just hold a grudge

00:31:13.360 and be angry.

00:31:14.500 For me,

00:31:15.060 I found it to be true 0.87

00:31:16.300 even at a personal level.

00:31:18.300 Sometimes I would get so angry

00:31:19.900 I would see stuff

00:31:20.780 said about me

00:31:21.580 or even worse

00:31:22.200 about my family.

00:31:23.360 If it's about me,

00:31:24.180 I can take it.

00:31:25.160 But when I see stuff

00:31:25.900 about my children,

00:31:27.160 my daughters,

00:31:27.680 I just start burning up

00:31:28.900 and get all these

00:31:30.040 vengeful feelings.

00:31:31.300 And then I realized

00:31:32.040 when I get in that state,

00:31:33.540 Megan,

00:31:34.160 I'm awful.

00:31:35.460 Like, I'm awful to be around.

00:31:36.620 And I also can't write.

00:31:38.500 I can't write.

00:31:39.560 I can't be productive.

00:31:40.720 I just,

00:31:41.440 even again,

00:31:42.340 just purely strategically,

00:31:43.500 I thought,

00:31:44.200 you just let it go.

00:31:46.200 You know,

00:31:46.340 it's just a terrible state

00:31:47.540 to being.

00:31:48.240 Just be generous.

00:31:49.880 Take a deep breath.

00:31:50.780 And I've tried to live by that.

00:31:52.300 I got it from my parents.

00:31:53.940 And that's actually

00:31:54.860 the first piece of advice

00:31:56.000 I give young people.

00:31:56.940 Just like,

00:31:57.440 let it go.

00:31:59.040 Don't be bitter.

00:32:00.740 And now we're really

00:32:01.560 going down the rabbit hole.

00:32:02.560 But I will share

00:32:03.580 a story with you

00:32:04.360 that for me

00:32:05.480 was very illuminating

00:32:06.500 as a woman,

00:32:07.180 as a human.

00:32:08.900 Back when I was

00:32:10.320 in between marriages,

00:32:11.860 you know,

00:32:12.040 my many marriages.

00:32:12.960 No,

00:32:13.140 I've only had two.

00:32:14.600 So my first marriage

00:32:16.180 had broken up

00:32:17.060 and I was separated

00:32:18.180 from Dan,

00:32:19.100 had not yet met Doug,

00:32:20.380 and I decided

00:32:21.100 to get some counseling.

00:32:22.060 This woman actually

00:32:22.700 helped me decide

00:32:23.780 that I was going to

00:32:24.340 leave my first marriage.

00:32:25.040 She was a relationship counselor.

00:32:26.700 And so she was wonderful

00:32:28.400 and really transformed

00:32:29.420 my life

00:32:30.240 and my thinking

00:32:30.760 about a lot of things.

00:32:31.500 But I went to her

00:32:32.460 for individual therapy

00:32:33.380 and shortly into

00:32:34.080 the relationship,

00:32:34.880 she was like,

00:32:35.840 you know,

00:32:36.520 you could really benefit

00:32:37.400 from some group therapy.

00:32:39.000 I was like,

00:32:39.820 how fucked up am I?

00:32:40.900 Like,

00:32:41.020 how many times a week

00:32:42.400 am I going to be coming here?

00:32:45.340 And she said,

00:32:47.240 it's a lot,

00:32:47.880 it's women 1.00

00:32:48.500 who are all going through

00:32:50.400 the,

00:32:51.060 you know,

00:32:51.220 a big breakup

00:32:52.020 or a relationship crisis.

00:32:53.560 And I think

00:32:54.380 hearing their stories

00:32:55.400 would help you.

00:32:55.940 So I was like,

00:32:56.280 okay,

00:32:56.440 I'll do it.

00:32:57.180 So I went

00:32:57.660 and that's what I thought

00:32:58.160 we were going to talk about,

00:32:59.020 the guys

00:32:59.520 and whether we all

00:33:00.300 wanted to break up

00:33:01.040 or stay together.

00:33:01.940 And there was some of that,

00:33:03.220 but it turned into also

00:33:04.460 an inward look

00:33:05.960 at ourselves

00:33:06.560 at the way

00:33:07.680 we approach friendships,

00:33:08.560 at the way

00:33:09.160 we approach other women

00:33:10.460 and had some profound

00:33:12.960 discussions there.

00:33:13.780 And one of the discussions

00:33:14.780 was about how

00:33:15.520 I had always felt like

00:33:17.020 when I walk into a room

00:33:18.000 with other women,

00:33:18.900 they don't like me.

00:33:19.980 That instantaneously

00:33:21.560 I was disliked.

00:33:23.540 And maybe that had been true,

00:33:25.240 maybe it hadn't,

00:33:25.860 but that

00:33:26.340 it wasn't even

00:33:27.600 appearance

00:33:28.340 so much as confidence.

00:33:30.120 Sometimes when you

00:33:30.560 project confidence

00:33:31.560 as a person,

00:33:32.320 it can be threatening

00:33:34.020 to others,

00:33:34.740 right?

00:33:35.260 Especially if they

00:33:35.880 don't feel confident.

00:33:37.160 There's so much envy

00:33:38.260 of you,

00:33:39.180 Megan.

00:33:40.500 You know,

00:33:41.180 I,

00:33:41.820 yes,

00:33:42.560 I know exactly

00:33:43.240 what you're talking about.

00:33:44.480 And sometimes

00:33:45.280 I have to

00:33:46.020 talk to myself about it

00:33:47.480 because I feel bad.

00:33:48.400 I'm like,

00:33:48.680 why?

00:33:49.240 I feel like

00:33:49.820 everybody hates me.

00:33:50.700 Look at my,

00:33:51.140 I'm looking at Twitter.

00:33:51.940 Oh my gosh.

00:33:52.680 And these people

00:33:53.500 don't even know me

00:33:54.420 and it's lethal.

00:33:55.240 It's so deadly

00:33:56.880 and toxic

00:33:57.560 and like,

00:33:58.080 oh,

00:33:58.320 and vicious.

00:33:59.140 Like I,

00:33:59.720 you deserve your daughters

00:34:00.780 to commit suicide

00:34:01.680 and all this terrible stuff.

00:34:03.260 And,

00:34:03.420 and I,

00:34:04.480 I've thought about it

00:34:05.300 a lot myself.

00:34:05.920 So how did that go?

00:34:07.460 So I,

00:34:07.980 I talked about it openly.

00:34:09.100 I,

00:34:09.400 I confess that to these women.

00:34:11.120 I was,

00:34:11.540 I was already on television

00:34:12.720 at the time.

00:34:13.260 I was like a first year

00:34:14.380 at Fox or maybe second year.

00:34:15.860 And,

00:34:16.360 um,

00:34:16.960 one of the women 0.77

00:34:18.060 did me the favor

00:34:19.620 of crying

00:34:20.840 and telling me

00:34:22.200 in her case,

00:34:23.320 it was true.

00:34:24.320 She said,

00:34:25.720 I,

00:34:26.520 I do feel threatened.

00:34:27.840 I wouldn't want to go out

00:34:29.200 for a drink with you.

00:34:30.440 I would feel like

00:34:31.240 you would get

00:34:32.180 all this attention

00:34:32.940 and I wouldn't get any

00:34:34.080 and you would think

00:34:35.220 you were better than me

00:34:36.160 and I wouldn't like

00:34:37.120 the way I felt

00:34:38.140 around you.

00:34:39.000 And then I started crying

00:34:39.960 because she,

00:34:40.420 she was giving me

00:34:41.120 a gift of honesty

00:34:41.980 and I got the chance.

00:34:43.680 She gave me the chance

00:34:44.680 to confess to her

00:34:45.800 that's not at all

00:34:46.700 how I am,

00:34:47.400 how I'm riddled

00:34:48.060 with self-doubt.

00:34:49.020 And while I know

00:34:49.540 I project very confident

00:34:50.760 and I,

00:34:51.240 in general,

00:34:51.560 I'm a confident person,

00:34:52.420 I have just as many

00:34:53.680 insecurities as anybody else

00:34:55.360 and I'm clamoring

00:34:56.700 for approval

00:34:57.380 just like any other human.

00:34:58.560 So we bonded

00:34:59.720 and the end result

00:35:01.700 of all of this was

00:35:02.480 my lady,

00:35:03.120 Amy,

00:35:03.540 she was the therapist,

00:35:04.740 helped me

00:35:05.300 and the other gals 1.00

00:35:06.060 see the more

00:35:07.840 you can walk

00:35:08.800 into a room

00:35:09.880 thinking not

00:35:11.760 they all hate me

00:35:13.220 or they're all

00:35:13.780 gonna hate me

00:35:14.500 but thinking instead

00:35:15.780 they're all going

00:35:17.380 to love me

00:35:18.300 the more

00:35:19.120 you will get

00:35:19.880 that back

00:35:20.740 from that group

00:35:22.140 and from life

00:35:23.560 and on a much

00:35:24.620 larger level

00:35:25.620 I think that's

00:35:26.300 what we're talking

00:35:26.760 like if you could

00:35:27.320 find a way

00:35:28.060 out of the tribal

00:35:28.800 instinct

00:35:29.300 and try to look

00:35:31.000 generously at the

00:35:31.700 other side

00:35:32.160 and say

00:35:32.540 what if they loved me?

00:35:34.900 Maybe we could

00:35:35.680 make some progress.

00:35:36.840 You know,

00:35:37.060 when I got back

00:35:37.880 I'll tell you later

00:35:39.340 but I had this

00:35:40.260 weird medical crisis

00:35:41.780 but when I got back

00:35:43.240 to school

00:35:44.360 after this really

00:35:45.440 turbulent time

00:35:46.300 when there were

00:35:46.540 all these protests

00:35:47.280 and it was another

00:35:47.960 one of my firestorms

00:35:49.660 I remember going

00:35:50.620 into a class

00:35:51.440 and then a bunch

00:35:52.800 of students

00:35:53.200 said to me

00:35:53.720 oh gosh

00:35:54.340 during office hours

00:35:55.200 you can't believe it

00:35:55.960 all these people

00:35:56.460 on the wait list

00:35:57.080 for your class

00:35:57.720 you know

00:35:58.480 they were about

00:35:59.420 to snitch

00:35:59.960 like they were

00:36:00.560 the ones

00:36:00.920 actually saying

00:36:01.440 terrible things

00:36:02.060 about you

00:36:02.480 and protesting

00:36:03.100 and I said

00:36:03.560 stop

00:36:04.120 I said

00:36:04.900 I don't care

00:36:06.380 I don't want

00:36:07.160 to hear anything

00:36:07.980 I don't want

00:36:08.440 to know

00:36:08.660 any

00:36:09.040 I want to give

00:36:09.840 every fresh

00:36:10.500 clean slate

00:36:11.760 I like everybody

00:36:12.580 if they'll give

00:36:13.360 me a chance

00:36:13.880 I'll give them

00:36:14.460 a chance

00:36:14.940 and it worked out

00:36:16.040 so good

00:36:16.440 that's so perfect

00:36:18.380 well don't you find

00:36:19.460 in life

00:36:20.240 sometimes you run

00:36:21.200 into that person

00:36:21.920 who is just dying

00:36:22.660 to tell you

00:36:23.080 all the negative

00:36:23.660 things people

00:36:24.220 have said about you

00:36:24.920 right

00:36:25.920 especially when

00:36:26.400 you're younger

00:36:26.800 and you really

00:36:27.540 need to eliminate

00:36:28.100 those people

00:36:28.540 from your lives

00:36:29.080 I remember

00:36:29.380 in law school

00:36:29.800 there was a gal 0.99

00:36:30.400 she sat next to me

00:36:31.480 because we sat

00:36:31.840 alphabetically

00:36:32.500 and she would

00:36:33.280 just tell me

00:36:33.660 all the time

00:36:34.440 about like

00:36:34.960 this one

00:36:35.240 doesn't really

00:36:35.680 like you

00:36:36.060 or this one

00:36:36.400 said that

00:36:36.760 about you

00:36:37.100 and finally

00:36:37.780 I looked at her

00:36:38.400 and I was like

00:36:38.960 you know what

00:36:39.480 do me a favor

00:36:40.520 don't tell me

00:36:41.400 any more of those

00:36:41.880 things

00:36:42.160 I don't need

00:36:42.840 to know

00:36:43.080 those things

00:36:43.620 I told my daughters

00:36:45.000 I was like

00:36:45.600 you know

00:36:46.460 you don't be surprised

00:36:47.840 that what kind

00:36:48.580 of tiger mom

00:36:49.160 advice I give

00:36:49.980 but this is a big one

00:36:50.840 I was like

00:36:51.120 I've discovered

00:36:51.740 late in my life

00:36:52.500 that there are

00:36:52.820 basically two kinds

00:36:53.660 of people

00:36:54.140 the ones that

00:36:55.440 after you leave them

00:36:56.360 I mean no matter

00:36:56.900 how the conversation

00:36:57.760 felt

00:36:58.060 you feel worse

00:36:59.060 about yourself

00:36:59.700 for some reason

00:37:00.340 you just feel bad

00:37:01.360 and then the other

00:37:02.560 half you leave

00:37:03.700 and you know

00:37:04.080 you could have been

00:37:04.580 talking about

00:37:05.080 you know potatoes

00:37:05.760 but you just feel

00:37:06.680 better about yourself

00:37:07.600 and I was like

00:37:08.060 you always want

00:37:09.260 to be the second

00:37:10.260 kind of person

00:37:11.060 you know

00:37:12.180 that's so important

00:37:13.240 yeah

00:37:13.660 I'll tell you

00:37:14.740 the epilogue

00:37:15.180 to that story

00:37:16.020 about the woman 0.68

00:37:16.480 I went to law school

00:37:17.080 with so

00:37:17.460 I told her

00:37:18.900 to stop telling me

00:37:19.620 that stuff

00:37:20.020 that I didn't

00:37:20.440 appreciate it

00:37:21.000 and it wasn't

00:37:21.440 good for me

00:37:21.860 and she took offense

00:37:23.180 and flash forward

00:37:24.400 to the end

00:37:24.880 of the semester

00:37:25.840 and we walked in

00:37:27.040 and we're trying

00:37:27.460 to find our seats

00:37:28.160 and she had already

00:37:28.700 seen the seating chart

00:37:29.520 and as I say

00:37:29.960 we always sat

00:37:30.460 next to each other

00:37:30.940 so I saw her

00:37:31.440 at the back

00:37:31.720 of the class

00:37:32.100 and I said

00:37:32.400 do you know

00:37:32.640 where we're

00:37:33.020 sitting

00:37:33.520 and she goes

00:37:34.720 figure it out

00:37:35.480 yourself

00:37:35.960 and I looked at her

00:37:37.120 and I said

00:37:37.600 shove it up your ass 0.93

00:37:39.560 which is a great phrase

00:37:41.100 we should use it

00:37:42.020 more often

00:37:42.640 I advocate for it

00:37:43.900 it felt so good

00:37:47.840 I think also

00:37:49.740 when you talk about it

00:37:51.000 it can be inspiring

00:37:51.880 I've had conversations

00:37:53.340 with the students

00:37:54.140 that are very illuminating

00:37:55.300 for me too

00:37:55.820 because I get the same thing

00:37:57.140 which is

00:37:57.520 wow you're so strong

00:37:59.380 you know

00:37:59.800 how can you just keep

00:38:01.080 picking yourself up

00:38:02.080 and when you hear

00:38:02.820 these things being said

00:38:03.720 about you

00:38:04.260 and how do you do that

00:38:05.540 and when I explained

00:38:06.920 to them the process

00:38:08.220 I was like

00:38:08.700 oh you don't realize

00:38:09.460 like just 10 minutes

00:38:10.280 before I came into this room

00:38:11.340 I was like in bed

00:38:12.860 under the covers

00:38:13.580 not sure I could deal with it

00:38:15.040 you know

00:38:15.380 pounding the mellows

00:38:16.540 just

00:38:16.680 and the decision

00:38:18.620 to like

00:38:18.980 you know what

00:38:19.260 I'm going to put on

00:38:20.040 a nice suit

00:38:20.680 and actually present myself

00:38:22.000 you know

00:38:22.320 it's

00:38:22.900 a lot of that's hard

00:38:24.220 you just have to

00:38:24.840 kind of make yourself

00:38:25.680 and it's not like

00:38:26.580 it's automatic

00:38:27.260 I'm oh I'm a

00:38:28.160 this is easy for you

00:38:29.040 I'm such

00:38:29.740 quote unquote

00:38:30.380 strong person

00:38:31.220 it's

00:38:31.560 it's not

00:38:32.260 it's really

00:38:32.780 as you say

00:38:33.340 it's

00:38:33.600 it's

00:38:34.040 it's difficult

00:38:34.800 it's a struggle

00:38:36.000 and half the battle

00:38:36.880 as you point out

00:38:37.560 is just doing it

00:38:38.500 getting yourself up

00:38:39.460 and then doing it

00:38:40.800 even if it goes poorly

00:38:41.920 putting yourself back out there

00:38:43.140 after a big challenge

00:38:44.040 matters

00:38:44.620 matters in the perception

00:38:46.040 of others

00:38:46.420 and just in general

00:38:47.520 okay so

00:38:48.580 getting back to our

00:38:49.540 tribalism discussion

00:38:50.620 what

00:38:51.620 what do we do

00:38:53.100 about it now

00:38:53.880 so Trump

00:38:54.520 you know

00:38:55.040 Trump has lost

00:38:55.940 the election

00:38:56.440 and

00:38:56.940 the

00:38:58.380 the country's

00:38:59.580 very divided

00:39:00.220 it's not going to go away

00:39:01.540 just because

00:39:02.140 I mean he's not going away

00:39:03.420 he's still going to be the voice

00:39:04.300 of the Republican Party

00:39:05.100 for a long time

00:39:05.880 so what

00:39:07.060 what's going to happen

00:39:08.240 since you have studied

00:39:09.220 other countries

00:39:09.960 who get like this

00:39:11.480 with the market

00:39:12.640 minority majority

00:39:13.920 or however you phrased it

00:39:15.060 market dominant

00:39:15.600 what happens next

00:39:17.620 in those countries

00:39:18.460 well here's the crazy

00:39:20.320 optimist in me

00:39:21.460 which I can't believe

00:39:22.860 I can maintain

00:39:23.600 teaching at Yale Law School

00:39:24.700 but I just think

00:39:26.120 we have this

00:39:26.680 extraordinary

00:39:27.580 magic formula

00:39:30.100 in this country

00:39:30.700 and I think it's because

00:39:31.320 I'm an immigrant kid

00:39:32.160 we've talked about

00:39:32.720 our similar backgrounds

00:39:34.280 but I mean

00:39:36.160 I know you're not an immigrant 1.00

00:39:36.860 but just similar kinds

00:39:37.780 of upbringing

00:39:38.720 but you know

00:39:39.600 I think my parents

00:39:40.540 came from another country

00:39:41.860 that was just so much worse

00:39:43.320 they were the Chinese

00:39:44.060 and the Philippines

00:39:44.640 that I was just kind of raised

00:39:46.920 like this is such

00:39:47.600 an amazing country

00:39:48.340 so I think that the fact

00:39:49.500 that our national identity

00:39:51.680 is not rooted in blood

00:39:54.120 or a certain race

00:39:55.160 or a certain religion

00:39:56.020 but rather our constitution

00:39:57.900 is going to save us

00:39:59.560 I think it's going to take

00:40:00.400 a long time

00:40:00.980 it's going to be

00:40:01.520 we're going to have

00:40:02.000 many many rough years

00:40:03.780 because we're going

00:40:04.940 through growing pains

00:40:05.860 and some of it is

00:40:06.700 really honestly

00:40:08.120 a lot of previously

00:40:09.540 silenced voices

00:40:10.420 are finally getting

00:40:11.560 to express themselves

00:40:12.880 and that's good

00:40:13.620 and it feels very turbulent

00:40:14.700 but when you say

00:40:16.180 what should we do

00:40:18.060 going forward

00:40:18.760 one crazy

00:40:21.440 well I don't think

00:40:22.320 it's so crazy

00:40:22.760 but the kinds of things

00:40:23.860 that I think would be great

00:40:24.800 for this country

00:40:25.420 to bridge the divide

00:40:26.480 between the cosmopolitan elites

00:40:28.440 and kind of the rest

00:40:29.420 of the country

00:40:30.160 or Trump's base

00:40:31.540 is this idea

00:40:33.000 that people

00:40:33.480 on both the right

00:40:34.600 and the left

00:40:35.220 of the political spectrum

00:40:36.200 have started to suggest

00:40:37.360 and that's the idea

00:40:38.200 of like a national service program

00:40:40.880 whether it may be voluntary

00:40:42.460 but so you've got kids

00:40:43.940 so a lot of kids

00:40:45.040 right after high school now

00:40:46.220 especially coastal elites

00:40:47.500 they take a gap year

00:40:48.720 and it's wonderful

00:40:50.060 they usually go to Australia

00:40:51.140 or Amsterdam

00:40:51.820 or Guatemala

00:40:52.920 and they do amazing things

00:40:54.540 but the thing is

00:40:55.720 they often go

00:40:56.520 with their same

00:40:57.360 kind of elite bubble

00:40:59.080 like they're still

00:40:59.840 with their same friends

00:41:00.860 and they go

00:41:01.660 to amazing things

00:41:02.620 so what about

00:41:03.600 let's say

00:41:04.020 after high school

00:41:05.240 you know people

00:41:06.120 young people

00:41:06.820 are encouraged to

00:41:07.600 if you're from New York

00:41:08.600 or San Francisco

00:41:09.220 to go to another part

00:41:10.640 of the country

00:41:11.200 you know Kentucky

00:41:12.520 or Ohio

00:41:13.240 or somewhere

00:41:14.240 where you would never go

00:41:16.140 and sort of interact

00:41:18.060 on some kind of

00:41:19.000 public service project

00:41:20.560 you know

00:41:20.940 building planting trees

00:41:21.860 or building something

00:41:22.680 housing

00:41:23.120 because of the pandemic

00:41:24.000 but side by side

00:41:25.860 with somebody

00:41:26.360 not in a condescending way

00:41:27.740 not like I'm going to teach you

00:41:29.540 but just you know

00:41:30.780 and I think some program

00:41:32.680 like that

00:41:33.100 because we don't have

00:41:33.760 the draft anymore

00:41:34.560 it used to be

00:41:35.800 that the draft

00:41:36.840 actually served this function

00:41:38.080 this is an interesting thing

00:41:39.080 about the Vietnam War

00:41:40.080 that was terrible

00:41:40.680 for so many reasons

00:41:41.640 one very positive thing

00:41:43.400 that I write about

00:41:44.040 is that it actually

00:41:44.760 for the first time

00:41:46.060 brought Latino Americans

00:41:47.680 and African Americans

00:41:48.700 and Polish Americans

00:41:49.660 and Irish Americans

00:41:50.940 all together

00:41:51.720 and you know

00:41:52.520 there are these inspiring quotes

00:41:53.720 and when you're

00:41:54.480 you know

00:41:54.880 afraid for your life

00:41:56.040 you're in this dark cubby

00:41:57.600 being shot at

00:41:58.340 you look to the person

00:41:59.240 to your left and right

00:42:00.020 you don't care

00:42:00.580 what class they are

00:42:01.900 what accent they have

00:42:02.960 the color of their skin

00:42:03.920 you know

00:42:04.640 and that was actually

00:42:05.980 a great bonding moment

00:42:06.940 so if we can try

00:42:08.140 to replace that

00:42:08.860 with some sort of program

00:42:09.860 where young people

00:42:10.780 from more elite backgrounds

00:42:12.140 can actually interact

00:42:13.180 as human beings

00:42:14.020 with people

00:42:15.300 from other parts of the country

00:42:16.300 I think that kind of thing

00:42:17.140 would be a great start

00:42:18.120 I love that

00:42:19.760 I mean

00:42:20.320 we think about it now

00:42:22.220 because of our kids

00:42:23.180 you know

00:42:23.400 I didn't grow up

00:42:24.080 in any sort of elite circles

00:42:25.200 but now becoming

00:42:26.020 a member of the media

00:42:26.980 and then earning some dough

00:42:28.460 it kind of puts you there

00:42:30.120 and I do not want

00:42:31.900 to raise those kids

00:42:33.000 I don't want kids

00:42:34.160 that turn out like that

00:42:35.360 and so Doug and I

00:42:36.740 you know

00:42:37.200 we talk about it all the time

00:42:38.180 like how do you

00:42:38.880 how do you make sure

00:42:39.820 because they see

00:42:40.280 the trappings of wealth

00:42:41.240 that they don't think

00:42:43.040 too much of themselves

00:42:43.800 number one

00:42:44.300 we always make sure

00:42:44.940 they know

00:42:45.280 they have nothing

00:42:46.000 they have no money

00:42:47.420 he and I have money

00:42:48.540 they got nothing

00:42:49.340 good luck

00:42:49.660 that's perfect

00:42:50.580 number two

00:42:52.240 we don't

00:42:53.460 you know

00:42:53.740 in our summers

00:42:54.680 nobody stays in New York

00:42:55.700 in the summers

00:42:56.100 everybody leaves New York City

00:42:57.120 because it's hideous

00:42:57.800 we don't go to the Hamptons

00:42:59.980 we don't go to any

00:43:00.820 sort of rich communities

00:43:01.740 we've been hanging out

00:43:02.660 at the Jersey Shore

00:43:03.480 and it's a privilege

00:43:04.480 to have a summer place

00:43:05.820 don't get me wrong

00:43:06.580 but it was by design

00:43:07.940 that we chose

00:43:08.600 to live

00:43:09.480 you know

00:43:10.200 on a crowded street

00:43:11.060 with our home

00:43:11.620 right in the mix of things

00:43:12.740 next to people who

00:43:14.120 you know

00:43:14.420 are cops

00:43:14.960 and firefighters

00:43:15.560 and teachers

00:43:16.360 and real estate agents

00:43:17.460 and not

00:43:18.420 you know

00:43:18.900 you have to walk

00:43:19.820 the red carpet

00:43:20.420 just to get out

00:43:21.080 to dinner at night

00:43:22.180 you know

00:43:22.360 we already

00:43:22.660 freaking have that 0.90

00:43:23.580 in New York

00:43:23.980 we don't

00:43:24.720 we don't want our kids 0.86

00:43:25.480 to think that's real life

00:43:26.520 because it's not

00:43:27.180 a quick story

00:43:28.220 somebody really

00:43:29.820 really wealthy

00:43:30.440 that I don't know

00:43:31.120 very well

00:43:31.620 but you know

00:43:32.380 that again

00:43:32.840 like through this lecture

00:43:33.760 Tiger Mom stuff

00:43:34.500 I meet interesting people

00:43:35.540 and a billionaire's wife 0.98

00:43:37.560 carting around

00:43:38.560 they're really cute kids

00:43:39.720 but in private planes

00:43:41.200 and everything

00:43:41.560 said okay

00:43:42.260 invited me to dinner

00:43:44.120 said tell me

00:43:44.900 one important tip

00:43:46.340 just one crucial

00:43:47.340 secret

00:43:47.840 you know

00:43:48.120 because look at these kids

00:43:48.940 I want to be a Tiger Mom 0.99

00:43:50.360 and I'm seeing them

00:43:51.620 float around

00:43:52.100 in these private jets

00:43:53.220 and everything

00:43:53.680 with all these tutors

00:43:55.580 and I said

00:43:56.220 make them take out

00:43:57.240 the garbage

00:43:57.640 and she laughed

00:43:58.780 she's like okay

00:43:59.300 but seriously

00:43:59.940 what should I do

00:44:00.600 like should I

00:44:01.340 you know

00:44:01.940 these tutors

00:44:02.800 I was like

00:44:03.060 no I'm being

00:44:03.820 totally serious

00:44:04.820 I was like

00:44:05.960 if you

00:44:06.320 I had my biggest

00:44:07.540 fights with my daughter

00:44:08.300 Lulu

00:44:08.580 about taking out

00:44:09.340 the garbage

00:44:09.740 which was actually

00:44:10.780 hard for me

00:44:11.380 because I'm such a

00:44:12.500 type-made person

00:44:13.140 that I love

00:44:13.740 taking out the garbage

00:44:14.480 myself

00:44:14.920 but it was

00:44:16.480 just like what

00:44:17.140 you're doing

00:44:17.680 you know

00:44:17.920 it's like

00:44:18.240 it was important

00:44:19.100 for me to

00:44:19.840 not get them

00:44:21.160 too big for their

00:44:22.220 britches

00:44:22.760 you know

00:44:23.180 like you don't

00:44:24.520 have people

00:44:25.120 catering to you

00:44:25.960 and if you can't

00:44:26.600 do this

00:44:27.180 you know

00:44:28.580 life is difficult

00:44:29.400 so yeah

00:44:30.160 little story

00:44:30.840 well I think

00:44:31.520 about it as they

00:44:32.100 get older

00:44:32.440 because you know

00:44:33.820 obviously I like

00:44:35.000 you have a bunch

00:44:35.560 of connections

00:44:36.040 so if I

00:44:36.500 if I really

00:44:37.080 wanted to hook

00:44:37.760 my kids up

00:44:38.580 with some

00:44:39.000 summer internship

00:44:39.840 in you know

00:44:40.860 some senator's office

00:44:41.820 I'm sure I could

00:44:42.840 but I'm really

00:44:44.420 hoping that I

00:44:45.540 can get them

00:44:45.980 to shovel fish

00:44:46.640 guts at the

00:44:48.020 local fish market

00:44:48.920 in New Jersey

00:44:49.920 where we go

00:44:50.400 I really want

00:44:51.340 that to be on

00:44:51.820 my kids resume

00:44:52.620 of life

00:44:53.780 you know

00:44:54.160 that they

00:44:54.560 they immerse

00:44:55.460 themselves in a

00:44:56.220 job where they

00:44:56.760 got their hands

00:44:57.440 dirty and they 1.00

00:44:58.540 figured it out

00:44:59.420 because that's

00:44:59.880 that's also part

00:45:00.780 of development

00:45:01.460 you know

00:45:01.880 it can't all

00:45:02.560 be model UN

00:45:03.660 oh my god

00:45:05.060 to be perfectly

00:45:06.220 honest I actually

00:45:07.080 think it's going

00:45:07.540 to benefit even

00:45:08.440 strategically

00:45:09.020 you just have

00:45:09.780 too many elites

00:45:10.640 all doing the

00:45:11.300 same things

00:45:11.740 and it's obvious

00:45:12.360 that it's through

00:45:13.000 a connection

00:45:13.540 so so not just

00:45:14.940 for personal

00:45:15.460 honest development

00:45:16.600 but I think

00:45:17.560 that's I think

00:45:18.200 that makes a lot

00:45:18.800 of sense

00:45:19.120 you know you

00:45:19.780 will find that

00:45:20.360 it's hard though

00:45:20.940 because I'm you

00:45:21.720 know quite a bit

00:45:22.520 older than you

00:45:23.200 because if you

00:45:24.580 if you grow up

00:45:25.640 with humble beginnings

00:45:26.580 like I did

00:45:27.820 I'm not dirt poor

00:45:28.860 but you know we

00:45:29.380 I always had to

00:45:30.500 wear the fake

00:45:31.260 adidas with four

00:45:32.460 stripes

00:45:32.700 and it was so

00:45:34.360 ugly so

00:45:34.980 and you know

00:45:36.760 I just never

00:45:38.440 got the nice

00:45:39.080 things so

00:45:39.600 because we love

00:45:40.540 our children so much

00:45:41.340 we want them

00:45:42.160 to have what

00:45:42.640 we didn't have

00:45:43.880 so I think

00:45:44.920 that you will

00:45:45.300 find that you

00:45:45.920 know you almost

00:45:46.440 have to control

00:45:47.240 yourself because

00:45:47.840 our natural

00:45:48.560 instinct as

00:45:49.480 parents is we

00:45:50.440 want to give

00:45:51.820 them what we

00:45:52.220 didn't have

00:45:52.760 and I had to

00:45:53.800 always resist

00:45:54.680 that instinct

00:45:55.480 I find myself

00:45:57.220 often telling

00:45:57.920 them we can't

00:45:58.440 afford it we

00:45:58.840 can't afford

00:45:59.260 it we can't

00:45:59.680 afford it whether

00:46:00.300 it's true or

00:46:00.840 not just because

00:46:01.400 I want them to

00:46:01.940 get used to

00:46:02.400 that in life

00:46:03.220 you know and

00:46:03.660 I know people

00:46:04.380 teach their kids

00:46:05.040 how to budget

00:46:05.560 and all that I

00:46:05.980 don't I don't

00:46:06.520 do that I'm not

00:46:07.000 much of a budgeter

00:46:07.760 myself I never

00:46:08.500 have been

00:46:09.020 but I do

00:46:10.780 want them to

00:46:11.300 understand the

00:46:11.820 world doesn't

00:46:12.260 come to you

00:46:12.620 very easily and

00:46:13.460 it's really about

00:46:14.160 hard work and

00:46:14.800 we'll get to

00:46:15.480 your philosophy

00:46:16.080 because you're

00:46:16.420 the queen of

00:46:17.040 that in a minute

00:46:17.660 but just to

00:46:18.820 take a step

00:46:19.220 back before

00:46:19.860 National Service

00:46:20.640 Corps because I

00:46:21.040 love that idea

00:46:21.800 if we don't do

00:46:23.200 anything if we

00:46:24.280 don't do anything

00:46:25.280 about this

00:46:26.420 problem I know

00:46:28.000 in the book you

00:46:28.560 say we're we're

00:46:30.060 going to see an

00:46:30.920 erosion of trust

00:46:31.740 in institutions

00:46:32.580 check we're

00:46:34.360 going to see an

00:46:34.800 erosion of trust

00:46:36.000 in electoral

00:46:36.840 outcomes check

00:46:38.280 keep in mind

00:46:38.860 folks she wrote

00:46:39.360 this book two

00:46:39.860 years ago we're

00:46:41.480 going to see

00:46:41.800 lurches toward

00:46:42.660 authoritarianism

00:46:44.020 check we're

00:46:45.680 going to see an

00:46:46.160 elite backlash

00:46:47.420 against the less

00:46:48.680 educated working

00:46:49.720 class or

00:46:50.440 deplorables check

00:46:51.820 and above all

00:46:53.700 we're going to

00:46:54.020 see the

00:46:54.280 transformation of

00:46:55.080 democracy into

00:46:56.180 an engine of

00:46:57.280 zero-sum political

00:46:59.260 tribalism so if

00:47:00.920 that's where we

00:47:01.500 stay zero-sum

00:47:03.260 political tribalism

00:47:04.320 nothing gets done

00:47:05.720 politically we

00:47:06.700 don't reach across

00:47:07.500 the aisle as

00:47:08.440 humans and

00:47:09.860 friends we

00:47:11.240 retreat more and

00:47:12.160 more and what

00:47:14.300 happens next because

00:47:15.080 I heard Rush

00:47:15.620 Limbaugh not too

00:47:16.200 long ago talking

00:47:16.820 about people are

00:47:17.900 talking about

00:47:18.260 secession now like

00:47:19.600 we're just going to

00:47:20.300 have to retreat into

00:47:21.060 different states and

00:47:22.060 say goodbye to this

00:47:22.960 whole project we

00:47:23.740 call the United

00:47:24.400 States yeah it's

00:47:25.840 really dangerous and

00:47:27.260 I mean I am I

00:47:29.140 am sort of

00:47:29.640 impressed that I

00:47:30.280 called it right

00:47:30.960 because I actually

00:47:32.300 wrote that even more

00:47:33.320 than two years ago

00:47:34.240 because again yeah

00:47:36.060 so if you just kind

00:47:36.860 of analyze the

00:47:37.620 dynamics based on

00:47:39.460 experience of other

00:47:40.340 countries I think it

00:47:42.020 is a a dangerous

00:47:44.000 moment I hope I

00:47:47.080 know this sounds

00:47:47.660 Pollyanna I hope

00:47:48.920 that we so I give

00:47:50.680 talks a little of the

00:47:51.300 country and people

00:47:51.840 like Amy tell us

00:47:54.200 another country that

00:47:55.120 we can follow is

00:47:56.280 there a country that

00:47:56.960 that you know that

00:47:58.360 can whose model we

00:47:59.480 can pursue so we

00:48:00.320 can get out of our

00:48:01.020 tribalism and you

00:48:02.380 know what Megan

00:48:02.980 they're always

00:48:03.420 thinking of Canada

00:48:04.160 but you know and

00:48:08.280 I just disappoint

00:48:10.160 everybody I'm like

00:48:10.900 you know what I

00:48:11.560 think we have the

00:48:12.620 best model that we

00:48:14.020 are at a terrible

00:48:14.840 moment we're seeing

00:48:16.500 really the worst of

00:48:17.580 ourselves right now

00:48:18.520 and yes there are

00:48:19.800 dangers that we could

00:48:20.600 really fracture I

00:48:21.720 when I talk to a lot

00:48:23.340 of my friends and

00:48:23.980 hear the actual hate

00:48:25.760 in their voices and

00:48:27.920 disdain and fear for

00:48:29.280 the other side I do

00:48:30.280 get really depressed

00:48:31.120 but but I think we

00:48:32.800 have the best self

00:48:33.640 correcting mechanisms

00:48:34.760 so and I actually

00:48:37.920 feel a little bit

00:48:39.140 hopeful with this

00:48:39.920 next four years so

00:48:42.540 but but we'll see I

00:48:43.580 mean you could see

00:48:44.120 that the Supreme

00:48:44.820 Court without getting

00:48:46.980 into the details has

00:48:48.040 surprised a lot of

00:48:48.860 people I mean you

00:48:49.960 know people I had a

00:48:51.240 lot of very liberal

00:48:52.040 friends that just

00:48:53.000 assumed the absolute

00:48:54.900 worst and instead

00:48:56.380 it's been a kind of a

00:48:57.380 stabilizing force a

00:48:58.920 little boring you

00:49:00.040 know but you know

00:49:01.580 we do have a and

00:49:03.120 so when I see people

00:49:03.820 trying to get rid of

00:49:04.460 this and that in the

00:49:05.280 government I it's

00:49:07.180 because I study

00:49:07.920 countries like

00:49:08.480 Venezuelans and

00:49:09.400 Zimbabwe and Iraq

00:49:10.200 and you know Libya

00:49:11.140 I'm like wait let's

00:49:12.400 not throw out the

00:49:13.160 baby with the bath

00:49:14.200 water so quickly

00:49:14.960 right it's kind of

00:49:15.980 impressive that we

00:49:16.800 have had one system

00:49:18.100 for albeit only just

00:49:19.720 200 years or so but

00:49:21.020 you know it's it's a

00:49:23.780 system that I think

00:49:24.400 we should be proud of

00:49:25.340 as I read what

00:49:26.520 you've written and

00:49:27.880 you know just sort of

00:49:28.940 what has brought us

00:49:29.620 together typically over

00:49:30.520 the years it part of

00:49:31.980 it is patriotism you

00:49:33.400 know belief in in this

00:49:34.480 country and what it

00:49:35.540 stands for the idea of

00:49:36.580 America and sadly we

00:49:38.400 really have gotten away

00:49:39.420 from that that's become

00:49:40.520 more of a partisan

00:49:41.660 tribal thing too you

00:49:42.900 know Republicans love

00:49:43.640 America and liberals

00:49:44.440 criticize it and if you

00:49:45.340 don't criticize it

00:49:46.080 you're you're for

00:49:46.940 racism right it's like

00:49:48.000 wait what wait how

00:49:49.480 do we get there

00:49:49.920 you look back at any

00:49:51.500 sort of historical

00:49:52.780 movie show or read

00:49:54.460 any books about

00:49:55.060 history and you see

00:49:56.420 how united the

00:49:57.280 country was after

00:49:58.140 world war ii when we

00:49:59.540 won and we believed

00:50:00.440 that we had you know

00:50:01.380 stood down hitler and

00:50:02.540 fascism and you know

00:50:04.040 we felt as one and we

00:50:05.060 believed in our country

00:50:05.860 more than ever and of

00:50:06.620 course we had economic

00:50:07.380 prosperity thereafter

00:50:08.440 but we've gotten away

00:50:10.340 from that and I don't

00:50:12.140 know how to convince

00:50:13.420 liberals like Democrats

00:50:15.360 that doesn't mean

00:50:17.040 they're pro-racism or

00:50:18.280 sexism or any ism to

00:50:20.540 back the idea of

00:50:22.140 America to get that

00:50:23.600 notion back into

00:50:24.860 classes and schools

00:50:26.160 where because it

00:50:27.240 could be a uniting

00:50:28.140 force that helps

00:50:28.860 reduce this tribal 0.95

00:50:30.080 instinct yeah you know

00:50:31.780 I've actually again

00:50:32.940 more provocative

00:50:33.860 things I've said I

00:50:34.860 wrote I was quite a

00:50:37.780 while ago I said

00:50:38.380 you know liberals

00:50:38.900 and progressives

00:50:39.580 shouldn't cede

00:50:40.700 patriotism to the

00:50:42.940 Republicans just like 0.67

00:50:43.740 they shouldn't cede

00:50:44.560 family values because

00:50:45.860 it's it's logically

00:50:47.980 it doesn't make sense

00:50:48.820 it doesn't make sense

00:50:49.460 that patriotism should

00:50:50.640 be more of a right

00:50:51.720 wing thing you have 0.99

00:50:52.920 right to define you

00:50:54.060 but to kind of play

00:50:55.700 the devil's advocate

00:50:56.620 on the other side

00:50:57.520 you know for I think

00:50:59.660 we're in a moment of

00:51:00.420 redefining what our

00:51:02.960 what our national

00:51:04.000 identity is and for a

00:51:05.960 lot of people to really

00:51:07.120 believe in America and

00:51:09.100 believe in the

00:51:09.960 Constitution those rights

00:51:11.800 have to mean something

00:51:12.680 to them so I totally

00:51:13.900 get it you know if you

00:51:14.880 belong to a certain

00:51:15.760 racial group where

00:51:16.740 you're like are you

00:51:17.740 kidding this particular

00:51:18.720 right has never played

00:51:19.940 out for anybody that

00:51:21.280 looks like me you're

00:51:22.700 going to get cynicism

00:51:23.580 so there's work to be

00:51:24.720 done on both sides like

00:51:25.880 we also have to you

00:51:27.580 know I totally get what

00:51:29.240 you're saying I've I've

00:51:30.020 talked about education

00:51:31.060 and well I think it's

00:51:32.780 great that we're not

00:51:33.740 whitewashing our history

00:51:34.780 anymore I totally think

00:51:36.520 it's great that we're

00:51:37.220 revealing that there

00:51:38.040 were a lot of flaws in

00:51:39.100 our founding fathers and

00:51:40.720 you know that's

00:51:41.760 important at the same

00:51:43.100 time I don't think we

00:51:44.300 should over correct you

00:51:45.940 know we need to find a

00:51:47.460 way to teach our kids

00:51:48.680 America's history you

00:51:50.160 know in a way that's

00:51:51.120 honest while still

00:51:52.980 letting them feel that

00:51:53.880 this is a special nation

00:51:55.200 with something that's

00:51:56.020 worth fighting for and

00:51:57.240 worth dying for so you

00:51:59.040 know I had a head

00:52:00.080 master I again talk

00:52:01.240 about self-censoring at

00:52:02.940 one of these super

00:52:03.580 fancy New York schools

00:52:04.580 he's a white male super

00:52:06.260 progressive himself but

00:52:07.680 he said to me Amy I

00:52:08.620 don't know what to do all

00:52:10.320 a lot of my the vast

00:52:12.040 majority of my students

00:52:13.200 think of the founding

00:52:14.340 fathers as white male

00:52:16.160 rapists you know and I

00:52:18.700 can't say anything about

00:52:20.040 that because I'm just

00:52:20.740 going to get targeted

00:52:21.520 so what do I do it

00:52:22.520 it's a terrible problem

00:52:24.300 you know it's and so

00:52:25.760 you know I think that

00:52:27.540 we need to figure out a

00:52:29.280 way to teach civics in a

00:52:31.780 way we can't have

00:52:32.460 because the Constitution

00:52:34.100 is the only thing that

00:52:35.220 can hold this country

00:52:35.880 together our history so

00:52:37.180 so that's that's

00:52:38.220 definitely you know

00:52:39.620 something that we all

00:52:40.280 need to work on

00:52:41.000 more with Amy in just

00:52:43.360 one minute but first I

00:52:44.280 want to talk to you

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00:54:32.460 last before we get back to

00:54:34.120 Amy want to bring you a

00:54:35.040 feature we call asked and

00:54:36.360 answered here at the show

00:54:37.780 Steve Krakauer is our

00:54:38.980 executive producer who's

00:54:40.060 got the question for us

00:54:41.800 hey Steve hey Megan this

00:54:43.280 is a good one here this

00:54:45.200 comes to us from someone

00:54:46.160 on Instagram who didn't

00:54:47.140 leave us their name so so

00:54:48.520 in the future leave us

00:54:49.520 your name and we can give

00:54:50.540 you credit and give you a

00:54:51.400 little shout out on the on

00:54:52.240 the show here the question

00:54:53.440 though was great what

00:54:54.380 advice would you give

00:54:55.180 someone that wants to

00:54:56.220 pursue a career like

00:54:57.200 yours don't do it run

00:55:00.680 don't walk just kidding I

00:55:04.820 don't know if you mean in

00:55:05.700 journalism or if you just

00:55:06.720 mean sort of like a big

00:55:09.660 career in the public eye

00:55:10.860 but work hard it's really

00:55:13.160 the the best piece of

00:55:14.300 advice I could give you

00:55:15.280 too many people don't want

00:55:17.020 to do it they want to phone

00:55:17.900 it in but the one common

00:55:19.660 denominator amongst all the

00:55:21.880 successful people I know is

00:55:23.760 they work their tail off

00:55:24.940 that's the only way no matter

00:55:26.660 what you do and if you're

00:55:28.580 going to be a burger

00:55:29.140 flipper be the best burger

00:55:30.660 flipper that restaurant has

00:55:32.700 ever seen and soon

00:55:34.860 there after you were you

00:55:36.020 will no longer be the one

00:55:36.900 doing the flipping you will

00:55:37.860 be the one doing the

00:55:38.960 hiring and you will see

00:55:40.380 your paycheck go up

00:55:41.360 accordingly don't be above

00:55:42.720 any work go there

00:55:44.040 volunteer for everything do

00:55:45.120 it all don't don't be a

00:55:46.740 diva right like nothing's

00:55:48.480 beneath you you're you're 0.98

00:55:49.500 there to get your elbows

00:55:50.300 dirty greasy and learn

00:55:53.700 don't be afraid when you're

00:55:54.680 young especially to ask

00:55:55.600 question question question

00:55:56.500 question I mean I'm I'm

00:55:57.960 not young and I'm still

00:55:58.780 asking questions all the

00:55:59.660 time because believe me if

00:56:01.520 you're wondering it others

00:56:02.500 are wondering it too and

00:56:03.820 better to ask than to just

00:56:05.380 wonder and then later make a

00:56:06.900 fool out of yourself so I

00:56:09.160 know I don't I don't know

00:56:10.120 so much about seeking out a

00:56:11.120 mentor I always think it's

00:56:12.180 sort of weird when somebody

00:56:13.280 like asks me to be their

00:56:14.760 mentor that's something you

00:56:15.600 kind of have to earn but

00:56:16.880 definitely find people you

00:56:17.940 admire and try to do what

00:56:19.400 they do and if you can get

00:56:21.720 to know them and ask them

00:56:22.760 real questions about their

00:56:24.200 approach that would be

00:56:25.140 helpful as well I also think

00:56:26.840 that when you're

00:56:27.300 interviewing for a job that

00:56:28.900 you really want don't be

00:56:29.840 afraid to ask for the job

00:56:30.860 say in the interview I want

00:56:33.100 this job for the following

00:56:33.940 reasons and they better be

00:56:34.960 good and they better be

00:56:35.740 concise and not sound like

00:56:36.680 talking points make them

00:56:37.620 real reasons because Fox

00:56:40.080 News is number one because I

00:56:41.340 believe a fair and balanced

00:56:42.860 is a life mantra not just one

00:56:44.740 for a corporation because I

00:56:45.840 believe the mainstream media

00:56:47.920 is way too far left and this

00:56:49.280 is the antidote that's not at

00:56:50.540 all what I said my Fox

00:56:51.620 interview I didn't even know

00:56:52.580 that it was really number one

00:56:53.880 at all I found it later um

00:56:55.500 but anyway and I actually

00:56:56.920 didn't totally appreciate its

00:56:57.980 ideological bent though I had

00:56:59.060 some clue um but have your

00:57:00.960 talking points ready as

00:57:02.320 opposed to just like it's

00:57:03.760 the largest company

00:57:04.680 delivering packages today

00:57:06.020 and hit the fortune whatever

00:57:07.500 and you don't want to do

00:57:08.280 that say something

00:57:09.420 persuasive that's real

00:57:10.560 because people can smell a

00:57:12.560 phony uh and then say I

00:57:15.420 like this job so much I

00:57:16.420 want it so badly I will

00:57:17.400 accept it on the spot if

00:57:18.540 you make me an offer I will

00:57:19.440 accept it on the spot you

00:57:20.840 can negotiate salary and

00:57:21.900 all that stuff later you're

00:57:22.800 gonna have power later in

00:57:23.920 your career if you've been

00:57:24.860 the hard worker and then you

00:57:26.160 can jack up your price but in

00:57:27.300 the beginning go in there

00:57:28.500 hungry hungry for the job

00:57:30.180 hungry for life hungry for

00:57:31.780 growth and then if you just

00:57:33.620 maintain that attitude you

00:57:34.660 will rise up in whatever

00:57:35.920 field you choose you will

00:57:37.480 rise up um you can't help

00:57:40.120 but rise up because too many

00:57:41.960 people have a lazy attitude

00:57:43.060 and want things handed to

00:57:43.960 them so you will shine by

00:57:45.380 comparison and keep a humble

00:57:47.620 heart never get drunk on your

00:57:49.020 own wine as great as you think

00:57:50.800 you are there's always

00:57:51.380 somebody better than you and

00:57:52.560 as shitty as you think you

00:57:53.480 are there's always somebody

00:57:54.280 worse than you that's why I

00:57:55.640 watch the real housewives

00:57:56.560 can't recommend it highly

00:57:57.600 enough no they're not bad

00:57:58.860 people they well kind of

00:58:00.140 anyway it's fun but the

00:58:01.640 point is don't beat your up

00:58:03.040 yourself up too badly and

00:58:04.220 don't lift yourself up too

00:58:05.320 high okay uh and listen

00:58:07.340 whoever you are good luck

00:58:10.320 colman hughes was on the show

00:58:15.160 not long ago and and i was

00:58:16.520 saying something similar like

00:58:18.080 how do you teach patriotism and

00:58:19.440 he said you don't you teach

00:58:21.720 history you teach world

00:58:23.980 history and you let them see

00:58:26.060 what america is and what it

00:58:28.140 is compared to every other

00:58:29.640 country on earth right like

00:58:31.220 look at our history and look

00:58:33.180 at theirs i was like oh my god

00:58:34.520 that's it right there all right

00:58:36.020 let's talk about schools and

00:58:37.960 education because you are at

00:58:39.580 yale law school and i know it's

00:58:41.500 like every campus lead campus but

00:58:44.580 really every campus other than

00:58:45.780 two um it's very leftist and

00:58:48.960 left-leaning so first of all just

00:58:51.980 broad brush how does that

00:58:53.040 manifest in your life there oh

00:58:55.680 it's so completely different even

00:58:57.600 from five years ago it's amazing

00:58:59.580 um there are i used to love the

00:59:03.280 thing that i loved most about

00:59:04.680 being a professor was i would see

00:59:06.300 friendships developing across

00:59:08.280 political lines so at yale law

00:59:10.740 school every student starts in a

00:59:12.920 small group of 16 people and so

00:59:15.940 many friendships have formed in

00:59:17.600 those small groups and so you know

00:59:19.620 somebody we both know jd bands you

00:59:21.520 know poor republican from

00:59:23.120 appalachia i still remember he was

00:59:25.860 extremely close to um you know a

00:59:29.220 very progressive gay woman who

00:59:31.600 shared absolutely nothing in common

00:59:33.340 with him and they became great

00:59:34.940 friends that cannot happen anymore

00:59:37.160 um there's a conservative

00:59:39.000 organization as you know called the

00:59:40.520 federal society and i used to love

00:59:42.940 seeing friendships across you know

00:59:44.720 these political lines now there's a

00:59:46.740 concept called fed sock adjacent so if

00:59:49.660 you're a liberal but you have one

00:59:51.800 friend who belongs to the federal

00:59:53.740 society you will be targeted at

00:59:56.140 shame and called out you are fed sock

00:59:58.600 adjacent and you are not a member of

01:00:00.200 the tribe

01:00:00.600 yes and so it just it just shuts all

01:00:04.900 that down i see obsessions with um

01:00:08.480 vocabulary policing so don't get me

01:00:11.260 wrong there are a lot of improvements

01:00:12.820 you know i'm glad that a lot of

01:00:14.140 phrases aren't used anymore we can all

01:00:15.800 grow but i i worry that that it's not

01:00:19.760 in the spirit of unity and real

01:00:21.400 progress but more like gotcha so i have

01:00:23.820 this student who came a transfer

01:00:25.280 student who was again big democrat most

01:00:27.900 of our students are democrats she's from

01:00:29.960 a poor place down south and she came 1.00

01:00:31.860 all ready to do good in this class she

01:00:34.060 raised her hand and talked about you

01:00:35.700 know prisoners rights immediately she

01:00:38.060 was a white woman you know caucasian 1.00

01:00:39.600 woman hands go up she was called out 1.00

01:00:42.120 called out for using the wrong term

01:00:44.780 you're supposed to say incarcerated

01:00:46.380 people so you can't say prison you know

01:00:48.560 and same with if somebody accidentally

01:00:51.180 says illegal alien you know it's not 1.00

01:00:53.140 just a gentle reminder it's that's

01:00:55.520 xenophobic you know so i i think that's a

01:00:58.440 terrible development because instead of

01:01:00.000 facilitating conversation you just shut

01:01:02.340 everything down um i so i see a lot of

01:01:06.960 self-censoring you know i know there's a

01:01:08.540 big debate but i could tell you

01:01:09.820 students openly tell me oh you know i'm

01:01:13.340 not gonna risk it you know i don't want

01:01:15.280 to go up on the wall and find myself you

01:01:17.200 know the center of a campaign you know

01:01:19.720 there'll be a big criminal law class

01:01:22.260 where there'll be a few outspoken 0.82

01:01:23.700 people it's a very big position are at

01:01:26.540 the law schools now to be against

01:01:27.680 prisons you know defund the police or to

01:01:30.140 be against prisons completely i'm not

01:01:32.740 surprised this is that's actually part of

01:01:34.020 the black lives matter uh playbook that's

01:01:36.280 what that's what they're pushing for in

01:01:37.420 places like seattle it's written down

01:01:39.260 they want to empty all the prisons open

01:01:41.160 up the jails well it's it's really

01:01:43.060 complicated because i it's easy to

01:01:44.940 caricature everything i mean i actually

01:01:46.320 know people who have very subtle views

01:01:48.680 about what they really mean but yes there

01:01:50.880 are some people who in these classes

01:01:53.360 both you know if you're even in favor of

01:01:55.940 prison then you're you're going to be

01:01:57.400 targeted so i have a bunch of students

01:01:59.240 who by themselves by the way themselves

01:02:01.100 are extremely progressive saying oh my

01:02:03.180 gosh i would never raise my hand and

01:02:05.120 even ask a question or push back it's

01:02:07.580 just not worth it so there's a lot of

01:02:09.860 that kind of self-censorship um on the

01:02:11.980 good news front naked i um i stick a big 0.69

01:02:16.140 banner on my syllabus um and i'm not the

01:02:18.440 only one but i'm in a small minority that

01:02:20.520 says do not take this class if you don't 0.94

01:02:23.720 want this and i'm like this class you know

01:02:26.140 is intent on promoting vigorous debate

01:02:28.880 across all different political backgrounds

01:02:31.880 and spectrums everybody has an assumption

01:02:34.700 to that they are not a racist or you know

01:02:37.400 xenophobe if they say something um you

01:02:39.880 know don't take this class if you don't

01:02:41.660 want to to be in that kind of environment

01:02:43.780 and i when i said i was going to do that a

01:02:46.240 lot of my colleagues were oh my god first

01:02:48.160 you're going to be targeted and also you're

01:02:49.620 going to have 10 people i had 180 person

01:02:52.940 people signed up for a 60 person class so i

01:02:55.760 have a huge wait list so i think there is a

01:02:58.180 giant silent majority out there that is

01:03:01.220 kind of squashed into silence because it's

01:03:03.540 not worth it that's the phrase it's not

01:03:05.020 worth it to to be called out and to be you

01:03:07.840 know suddenly find yourself in the middle

01:03:09.180 of social media but there's a craving to go

01:03:12.000 back to be able to have civil discourse to

01:03:14.640 talk to people on the other side i really

01:03:16.460 think there is it is worth it it is too and

01:03:21.420 there's safety in numbers because if you

01:03:23.200 speak out you won't be the only one if you

01:03:25.120 can get others to speak out with you you'll

01:03:26.720 soon see that there's a groundswell of

01:03:29.460 support for positions on the other side

01:03:31.260 that's that to me is the answer to you know

01:03:34.980 some of this far left woke stuff that's

01:03:36.620 being shoved down our throats speak up it's

01:03:39.440 okay to push back some of this stuff is

01:03:41.900 insane and if we don't start calling it out

01:03:44.720 we're gonna have to live with it and

01:03:46.400 especially in the academic institutions

01:03:48.920 yes it's gonna take courage to speak up and

01:03:51.280 be you know a minority voice basically you

01:03:53.480 know ideologically minority but do it grow

01:03:56.140 a pair be a man be a woman do it you know 0.66

01:03:58.580 i just like i i don't have a lot of

01:04:00.180 sympathy because at this point in my life

01:04:01.860 i've learned enough to know if you go

01:04:04.560 along it's still not going to save you

01:04:06.940 just just stand up for what you believe

01:04:09.060 in yeah and it's scary even as a

01:04:11.180 professor when you say that i i and i've

01:04:13.420 actually done it on both sides where

01:04:15.180 somebody says something and they're

01:04:17.480 immediately called out and then i'm

01:04:19.380 terrified because i realized oh my gosh

01:04:21.180 you know if you if you defend this

01:04:23.680 person that's in the dog house are you

01:04:25.260 gonna get dragged down and i force

01:04:26.780 myself so i think it takes but you're

01:04:28.660 absolutely right i it it works like um

01:04:31.700 you know this i think that's the correct

01:04:34.420 meaning of a of a role model right because

01:04:36.560 you're like okay she did it and she

01:04:38.680 survived yeah it wasn't that pretty but

01:04:40.660 she survived maybe i can do it too

01:04:42.460 right it's and by the way it's so

01:04:44.580 liberating like now in this sort of

01:04:46.440 latest iteration of my professional life

01:04:48.280 it is so liberating to go on these media

01:04:50.880 tours or whatever who's ever asking me

01:04:52.760 to speak and just say what i really

01:04:54.960 believe and it's always considered

01:04:57.340 provocative i don't care i don't care you

01:04:59.460 can see people's eyes light up and like

01:05:01.800 the words are being said they're being

01:05:04.000 said out loud in a forum like this oh my

01:05:06.300 gosh it's wonderful to be able to give

01:05:08.220 people that feeling i don't care if some

01:05:10.720 people's feelings get hurt i'm done

01:05:13.000 bowing to that but i know like you you

01:05:16.760 have lived this because i know you spoke

01:05:20.700 up in in support of brett kavanaugh and

01:05:23.280 you and i had an email exchange about it

01:05:24.860 around the time because i also thought

01:05:26.700 that was brave and i thought what was

01:05:28.020 being done to him was outrageous you know

01:05:30.700 him a bit i think your your daughter

01:05:32.820 clerked for him one of your daughters and

01:05:35.760 when he was on the dc circuit right he

01:05:37.300 was on the lower court and then again i

01:05:39.120 think once he once he got elevated but

01:05:40.840 they were they were attacking your family

01:05:43.580 uh and you took a risk you you spoke

01:05:47.500 out so what made you do that yeah so i

01:05:50.460 think it's the way i was raised you know

01:05:51.940 my dad always taught me um nothing is

01:05:54.320 worth the price of your dignity you know

01:05:56.980 and um and also i was kind of raised just

01:06:00.400 to be loyal to my friends maybe this goes

01:06:03.160 back to tribalism but the media got it so

01:06:06.600 wrong like everything is backwards actually

01:06:08.420 what happened was believe it or not um you

01:06:11.400 know brett kavanaugh was known to be a

01:06:12.920 very moderate republican and he was a

01:06:15.220 darling of yale law school he was invited

01:06:16.820 for 10 years during admissions week to come

01:06:21.040 and talk to yale law women the black

01:06:22.980 students association he was like this

01:06:25.240 favorite alumni um that's not what you'll

01:06:27.860 think anymore but i actually wrote an op-ed

01:06:30.600 in the wall street journal and again this

01:06:32.360 is all the facts are all wrong in the media

01:06:34.440 but you can find it you know it was in the

01:06:35.980 summer right after he was nominated before

01:06:38.240 any of the scandal came out and it simply

01:06:40.980 um didn't talk about his political views

01:06:42.920 but defended him as a mentor uh and i just

01:06:45.500 quoted a bunch of my students and frankly all

01:06:47.640 the students ever sent to him were uh liberals

01:06:50.360 actually and they all to a one just said he

01:06:53.100 was the best mentor um and then all of the um

01:06:57.540 and my daughter was hired before that in

01:07:00.300 2016 before donald trump was elected and i had

01:07:03.240 nothing to do with it i've accused myself

01:07:05.020 and i disclosed that in the wall street journal article

01:07:07.420 but then crazy life happened um in 2018 i taught my first class in august 28th

01:07:13.880 thinking oh another new semester and that night i was seized with a terrible pain

01:07:19.600 and i was rushed to the emergency room the next thing i know i was at icu all of my organs start

01:07:25.660 collapsing my lung collapsed i had eight tubes put in me i was unconscious for a week

01:07:29.820 and in the hospital for three weeks that it was a freak medical thing there was a they found when

01:07:35.260 they finally opened me up a two centimeter hole in my colon that was releasing all these toxins

01:07:40.960 i was going to accept thick shock but right then this is september 2018

01:07:45.980 suddenly there are these scandalous things about

01:07:48.760 amy chua told people to look like models in interviews 0.56

01:07:52.620 it was so ridiculous because first of all he's a federalist society judge they're the most conservative

01:07:58.080 judges there's a uniform when you interview you have to wear a dark suit and low heels and

01:08:03.120 it was like the opposite it was just it's like if i were going to give crazy advice like that that's

01:08:08.580 not the way it would be it's just so ridiculous it is ridiculous but then i was in the hospital

01:08:14.960 under oxy coxa i mean toxin and there were all these rumors like amy chua's faking her illness

01:08:21.380 oh so she doesn't have to but we came out of it and i'm proud that you know that there were all

01:08:27.560 these calls that you know renounce him i felt like cultural revolution china you have to denounce them

01:08:32.160 and renounce this and i just said no you know and then the people at school said okay you may not be

01:08:38.060 able to teach properly there might be protests you may not get even though i was always one of the

01:08:43.560 most popular teachers maybe there will be three people that will take your class if you don't issue

01:08:48.260 an apology and i said you know what i'm a great apologizer but i will not apologize for something

01:08:52.640 i didn't do i didn't say i actually would have been proud to have said something like dress look

01:08:58.100 good you know but in this particular case i did it was just so ridiculous like looking like models

01:09:02.900 um yeah so i so i said well then if i only have two students that's too bad i'll start

01:09:07.840 you know and i might in my head i'm thinking of my mom and dad i was like i will win i will do it

01:09:12.540 the immigrant way through hard work i will try to win the students back one at a time and it's been

01:09:17.640 a long haul you know there was but i will say it wasn't just three students you know again i taught

01:09:22.360 a big you know i have a class of 100 people coming up and i've loved being back so i think if you stand

01:09:28.100 up for what you believe and don't cave it's not easy i don't want to sugarcoat it but it comes out

01:09:33.120 the right way at least you at least you can be proud of who you are yeah yep you're you're 100 right

01:09:39.500 you know it's it's hard i'm sure extra hard because you're of course at an organization i

01:09:44.320 mean it's you know academia is like media it's almost 100 liberal and so and it's not just enough

01:09:50.140 to you know if you are a liberal if you're a democrat you you have to be you know woke you have

01:09:55.060 to be saying the right things you have to not be saying the wrong things and that you know the lack

01:10:00.120 of ideological diversity in these colleges and frankly at these lower schools now is that the former

01:10:05.300 is a is a is a real well let me rephrase that it's a real problem it's a problem at the lower

01:10:11.220 schools and it's a serious problem in academia now or the the stats are like uh at yale there was a

01:10:17.480 survey in 2017 saying 75 of the yale professors say they're liberal less than 10 say they're conservative

01:10:23.040 i don't know what the others are but it's probably even lower than that honestly and um i don't even

01:10:28.500 know like if you were conservative why would you want to go teach at a university like that where

01:10:33.380 you're surrounded with people who not only don't think like you but they don't like you

01:10:37.120 yeah it's it's it's definitely difficult i mean again i am proud i first of all i'm lucky that i

01:10:42.880 teach a class called contracts and also international business transactions so we're it's it's like so

01:10:48.420 bland and but um i because i'm a minority woman i always have a huge progressive block of immigrants

01:10:56.280 kids and minorities and i love that they're really progressive but what i'm proud of is i'm one of the

01:11:01.380 only classes where i also have a really large group of federal society students so this just

01:11:07.360 past semester i had i think 14 federal society conservative students and then like you know 45

01:11:12.960 super liberal people of color and uh it worked like if you just lay down the ground rules there

01:11:18.440 were some tense moments i won't be i you know i'll have to be honest but again if i just i'm like

01:11:22.940 you lay down the rules i stand up for who think i think needs standing up for facilitate the

01:11:28.120 conversation you know i made it work and um i mean that's the academic project that's why people

01:11:33.400 people came to law school to want to debate the other side and to hear the position and to learn how

01:11:38.900 to articulate your position and if you just stamp out any dissension or you refuse to listen to the

01:11:44.880 other side it just defeats the purpose is it do you feel like it's has it gotten any better on that

01:11:50.440 you know because it's certainly the last i heard the college campuses were all about the safe

01:11:55.160 spaces and you couldn't have honest conversations about you know these issues like god forbid you

01:11:59.880 try to talk about race used to be just like abortion or religion um gay rights you know now it's crossed

01:12:06.260 over into like gender and race are these third rails and nobody can talk about and i just wonder because

01:12:11.280 of course academia and frankly again media those are the places exactly the places you should be

01:12:16.460 talking about those things and exploring different ideas and testing your own assumptions

01:12:19.540 yeah i'm not going to say it's gotten better yet but i i hope that we're going to turn a corner soon

01:12:26.200 because partly this is a crazy thing to say it's getting so untenable i mean you just see people who

01:12:31.180 were throwing out flamethrowers themselves getting sucked into it then they become the targets and at some

01:12:36.800 point there's just nobody left um you know when i see all the people that have been canceled and it's

01:12:42.240 just a larger and larger pool at some point you know i think the the term of having been

01:12:47.980 canceled is just takes on a different meaning i mean coleman hughes has talked about this um

01:12:51.760 uh so no i it was definitely still in the middle of this um you know of course president trump whatever

01:12:59.400 just he was a uh inflammatory figure so maybe at least one thing is that the temperature will be

01:13:07.140 reduced a little bit even though a lot of the same dynamics are still underlying um you know i'm just

01:13:12.140 hoping that maybe we'll and i also think people are exhausted megan i really think again i

01:13:17.840 believe in the silent majority you know i go to these dinner parties i i talk to large student

01:13:22.760 groups i'm like wait where are you guys how come the only voices i hear loudly shrieking are so

01:13:28.780 unreasonable and i've got this group of 100 people you all seem lovely you know i think i do think

01:13:34.800 they're going to speak up more and more and i and i have i take comfort in believing it's we had a

01:13:38.720 guest recently who was saying the truth will win out truth i think it was andrew sullivan was saying

01:13:42.360 truth wins out in the end over lies and and and we just have to wait for that because we're being

01:13:48.340 spun a lot of dishonest information on these subjects right now and i think over time more

01:13:54.540 and more people will speak out you know you've got scientists leaving the profession of science so they

01:13:59.260 can be be able to speak freely if that's what has to happen then that's what has to happen um but i think

01:14:04.800 we're gonna get there all right let's talk about tiger mothering this is so fun so i i i'm very

01:14:13.120 non-judgmental and i know you are too you're not saying you must be like me um when it comes to how

01:14:17.760 people mother their children but i'm fascinated and i think you gave us all a gift in writing that book

01:14:22.380 battle him of the tiger mother just because it's a window into somebody else's approach and somebody

01:14:27.680 who a has a very successful academic history herself double harvard undergrad in law and now is

01:14:34.400 teaching at yale law and then as we know now we didn't when you wrote the book you have two

01:14:39.740 daughters who you work to the bone but they both went to harvard undergrad one went to harvard law 0.99

01:14:44.880 one went to yale law so boom the proof is in the pudding in terms of academic achievement um let me

01:14:51.120 just start with an encounter i had with you which is literally one of my favorite stories so i met you

01:14:57.580 a couple years ago and we were talking a little bit about the book and i and i was like i get it you

01:15:03.160 know you you know you were tough and and really sort of rode them and they got these perfect grades and

01:15:07.380 you know of course the criticism of the book is but but what about their happiness and you said

01:15:13.400 i know i know whenever i hear someone ask that question i think to myself yes another one down

01:15:20.000 like i'm in love with her i love it your competitiveness your open owning of academic

01:15:28.500 competition you don't really care you're gonna do it so do you think do you think that now having

01:15:35.720 the girls you know become so successful academically do you have any regrets about it well i do i mean

01:15:41.280 not big regrets i i would say that the thing i'm most proud of is actually not their academic

01:15:45.640 credentials but the fact that we were really close that we and i i see i know how you are with your kids

01:15:50.820 like if i if i if my kids didn't want to come home and bring their friends and if i didn't feel they

01:15:56.720 talk to me i i would have counted myself as a failure so that was the most important thing and

01:16:01.140 i love my own parents too um and the funny thing about the tiger mom book is yeah i mean i am super

01:16:07.260 tough and i'm still tough but the book the whole book was a little bit misunderstood because it was

01:16:11.500 actually written because my younger daughter rebelled my younger daughter in such a big way that the last

01:16:18.080 third of the book was not funny and i i think the first two thirds is funny not everybody gets it but

01:16:22.780 the last third is like oh my god i mean you know talk about it was just dark as many parents with

01:16:28.800 adolescents know where i just it was just horrible i felt like she hated me where i was gonna lose her

01:16:34.000 and terrible things and so i actually wrote it in a moment of crisis so so my own view is actually more

01:16:39.940 nuanced than the media suggests i do still believe that self-esteem real self-esteem real confidence has to

01:16:47.880 be earned um so i would love it if i could have just said to my kids you're amazing you're amazing

01:16:53.500 you're the smartest you're the most brilliant and they would then be happy this goes to your happiness

01:16:57.680 point that that would have been so much easier but i i actually think happiness is so elusive like how

01:17:03.940 do we help our kids to be happy when they grow up and i sure don't have the answer but i also do know

01:17:10.240 that being having not the skills or the confidence to get what you want in life it's not a recipe for

01:17:17.940 happiness um being given everything and having an aimless feeling like you have no goals is not a

01:17:24.520 recipe for happiness in life so so it's complicated but but parenting is um i've been humbled many many

01:17:30.880 times um but yeah i mean i'm sort of like i'm still a tiger mom my daughters will confirm that

01:17:37.180 but now that they're so much older um you know in a much more nuanced way like one of the things i

01:17:43.260 learned is that you have to i used to think oh that's a waste of time that's a waste of time

01:17:47.680 one of my biggest lessons learned after my kids became 15 16 and went to college is that sometimes

01:17:54.320 you need to waste time like sometimes you need to waste a lot of time so like who are you and what

01:17:59.460 have you done with amy that's this is not you talking this is not no there's a there's an ulterior motive

01:18:04.640 like my younger daughter would just get not get out of bed and i would be like oh my god we have

01:18:08.920 these papers too and this like what am i going to do and then fiendishly i would finally said let's go

01:18:15.260 take a walk and my daughter is the slowest walker no one moves for slowly um i am such a fast-paced

01:18:23.160 person but you know so we're like crawling around at snail's pace but after this so-called waste of time

01:18:29.280 she felt better and finally at her own tempo would actually pull out a piece of paper you know

01:18:35.200 so um i mean there's there's just also you just there's another thing i learned is your kids and

01:18:40.220 your there's only so much you can do they are who they are you know um my kids are still exactly the

01:18:45.980 same people they were when as they were when they were one you know a year old same personalities

01:18:51.280 well let's talk about what some of the things that you know you did as a mom to raise these incredibly

01:18:56.840 successful daughters so you lay it out in the book and i'll just read the list and then you can sort of

01:19:00.980 explain what the goals were um you you start off by saying look how did chinese parents raise such 0.99

01:19:06.440 stereotypically successful kids well here are some things my kids were never allowed to do attend a

01:19:12.060 sleepover have a play date be in a school play complain about not being in a school play watch tv or

01:19:17.080 play computer games choose their own extracurricular activities get any grade less than an a not be the

01:19:22.660 number one student in every subject except for gym or drama play any instrument other than piano or

01:19:28.300 violin not play the piano or violin those are the things they were not allowed to do so i love it so

01:19:34.220 fun what what was the goal like what's the goal in in setting down that those rules so first of all as

01:19:41.640 you could see it's a little bit tongue-in-cheek um i like my kids did get some sleep lovers and play

01:19:46.960 dates but i stand by that list i will say that that same list was applied to me not in a joking way by

01:19:53.400 my own parents and when i mentioned chinese parents um in the book i defined it as actually including

01:19:59.180 like nigerian parents and jamaican american parents and korea so it's actually a little bit of an

01:20:04.400 immigrant kid phenomenon so the goal some of that is of actually benightedness like um so my mother 0.98

01:20:12.160 wouldn't let me do sleepovers when i was little because she came from a foreign country and i still 1.00

01:20:15.580 remember her looking at me when i asked to have a sleepover she was like but amy i don't understand

01:20:19.920 we have a bed here for you why do you want to go to someone else's house to sleep you know because

01:20:25.560 she was an outsider she didn't know these people she was worried about kidnappers you know um so some

01:20:30.980 of it is just literally kind of ignorance and i actually am a when i go give talks in china i give

01:20:36.080 the opposite advice like you don't want to raise robots you need people to know how to socialize

01:20:42.440 but i think there's a balance like exactly how many play dates does a person need for them to

01:20:48.860 be social you know um and it also american schools are very different from say schools in korea and

01:20:54.740 i think the ones in asia are so terrible you just you know you just work all day that you know i'm

01:21:00.620 always like they need some time to off on weekends but the the kind of really touchy-feely school i sent

01:21:06.740 my kids to actually felt like a giant play day you know they didn't even do like math equations it

01:21:13.200 was just like blocks and puzzles and things like that so so but i the goal ultimately is back to

01:21:19.520 self-esteem like i think the way that a lot of immigrant parents think is i there's a line in my

01:21:25.360 book i'm like you know we there are different ways that we all love our kids and we all want them

01:21:29.600 to be happy and strong but there are different ways of doing it and the way a lot of immigrants 1.00

01:21:34.100 think about it is i need to prepare them for the future you know they're only going to be children

01:21:38.800 a certain amount of time i need to arm them with the skills and the confidence and the grits that

01:21:44.460 they need so that when they fail they have it in themselves to pick themselves up again and try again

01:21:50.040 and again because that's going to be life you wrote chinese parents assume strength not fragility

01:21:55.920 i like the way you put that i mean sometimes i feel like i'm too lax with my kids you know because

01:22:01.760 they're so sweet you don't want to hurt their feelings and i have to remind myself you know

01:22:06.400 it's okay to say don't do that you're better than that do better yeah it's it's i still believe in

01:22:13.680 that that we should assume strength not weakness in our children but i will be the first to say that

01:22:18.660 parenting is not a science but an art like i'm always trying to calibrate you know and when i mentioned

01:22:25.580 this dark face i fell into with my younger daughter you know i would say one of the lessons i learned is

01:22:31.860 you have to listen as a parent so you have to you know your our children are so smart like it so they

01:22:38.200 know how to play us right so you're right like sometimes like like they they would always know

01:22:42.800 just the right words like they would you know certain kind of mental illness and we're like oh my god

01:22:47.100 you can have anything you want you know or i'm sad oh my god you know um uh and but but having said

01:22:54.900 that um it is tricky like i i've i've made tons of mistakes where i just i had to have my oldest

01:23:01.840 daughter or or vice versa somebody said you know daughter x is not feeling good at all and you're

01:23:08.240 not listening and you know so then i change um so i i think the baseline should be that we assume that

01:23:14.540 our children are not just these fragile people that will fall apart if you give them any criticism

01:23:18.540 because once they go out into the real world there's just gonna be a lot of criticism and

01:23:22.620 right there's a lot of things they're not going to get that they want um but i i yeah i think it's

01:23:30.400 it's a i've been humbled many times where um you know my daughters will say you know you made me feel

01:23:38.020 bad for these years and i felt we've had long talks about it i i'm like i don't remember you feeling

01:23:43.760 that bad and they're like oh that's because you weren't listening so you know you're i i feel

01:23:48.160 so let's strike the balance but i just for the record what i hear you i hear you being kind of

01:23:52.980 defensive on the book and i think it's sad because you shouldn't have to be defensive on the book i

01:23:58.040 think it's awesome that you you raise them the way you thought was best for them they turned out

01:24:02.680 great you have very solid relationships with them both but i almost feel like you must have been

01:24:07.380 shamed a lot by other moms and the media for your parenting style and you shouldn't you 0.99

01:24:13.540 shouldn't have been yeah well i do stand by it um uh so thank you for that um you know i i actually

01:24:22.060 uh do yeah it's it really was not written as a how-to guide but i but so it's it's this weird

01:24:30.640 thing like i wrote it believe it or not i thought it was going to be an interesting work of literature

01:24:34.580 it was like a memoir um so but yeah but thank you i i am proud of the girls that i raised i you know i

01:24:42.460 don't say it's for everybody i like the way you began this i mean i'm a teacher i have seen so

01:24:47.080 many brilliant students they come from every possible different parenting background i mean

01:24:51.340 you can take from it what you you can take from it what you will right like i i do think my general

01:24:57.080 approach other than being tough like i don't i i don't coddle them too much you know it's like i i'd

01:25:01.680 like you i don't say every two lines and a scratch of paper or like the next picasso it's like yeah it

01:25:06.400 looks fine um so i don't do that but i think i'm i'm too relaxed like i went to syracuse undergrad i

01:25:13.980 went to albany law school these are not i mean with all due respect to them these are not top tier

01:25:18.780 academic institutions and in the end it all worked out fine for me and i probably made more money and had

01:25:24.460 more success than a lot of people who wound up going right which is the moral of that story

01:25:28.480 well so so like i do have that perspective on it like yeah right if your kid doesn't get into those

01:25:33.660 schools it can all work out as long as they figure out what they're really good at and then and then

01:25:37.240 apply themselves so like all successful people i do work very very very hard um that's the one key

01:25:42.260 thing all successful people have it so and but you what you i see you doing is training your children

01:25:48.580 to work very very hard you're training them from a very young age i don't see anything wrong with

01:25:53.920 that but anyway when i look at my own parenting i think i should probably be training them harder

01:25:59.160 you know like i i don't know if it'll kick in for them the way it did for me and i don't see anything

01:26:04.120 wrong with like i like the fact that you said a's only a's but then in the back of my head i'm like

01:26:09.180 what if they bring home a b i don't think i have it in me to get the hundred practice tests as you said

01:26:14.440 make them do it like i don't know if you can half-ass the chinese parenting no you can't i mean i think 0.93

01:26:19.640 if the focus on grades gets people you know upset but like just like with papers you know what i i am

01:26:25.260 proud of this like with my students i i we have to resist the temptation to for writing our students

01:26:30.180 our kids papers for them because again it's so easy right oh it's due you know um and oh they're

01:26:37.040 crying and you want them to get a good grade and so part of being i think it i think everything

01:26:42.720 valuable is difficult and it's actually difficult just to not do it for them and make them do it another

01:26:48.020 thing i say is like i was like okay you've got to start early because you know i i've seen my

01:26:52.820 husband at the opposite model which is he's so smart he would do everything at the last minute and

01:26:56.900 then you know pull out a decent grade and feel like so heroic but that if you're competing against

01:27:02.300 somebody who started two weeks ago not as smart like me you know slowly uh you know the tortoise

01:27:08.640 will beat the hare and i'm always i say first draft you know you have to assume after you finished it

01:27:13.340 that it's you know you that you're 65 of the way there that you you're going to need to begin and

01:27:18.880 so i do have very high standards um that i think people could learn from how did you so you talk

01:27:25.300 there's a very funny part of the book where you write about um grades and you say if if that one

01:27:29.320 we're just gonna read from uh this is an excerpt from the journal if a kid comes home with an a and

01:27:33.560 with an a minus on a test a western parent will most likely praise him a chinese mother will gasp in

01:27:38.920 horror and ask what went wrong if it comes home with a b western parents might still praise the 1.00

01:27:43.680 child some might express some disapproval but be careful not to cause any insecurity or inadequacy

01:27:49.220 i'm paraphrasing now if a chinese child gets a b which would never happen you say there would first 0.99

01:27:55.880 be a screaming hair tearing explosion the devastated chinese mother would then get dozens maybe hundreds 1.00

01:28:00.900 of practice tests and work through them with her child for as long as it takes to get the grade up

01:28:05.220 to an a chinese parents demand perfect grades because they believe their child can get them 0.99

01:28:09.440 um when i read that i remember thinking how on earth did she find the time to do that you were

01:28:16.780 still working professional you were i think you were at yala when your girls were young how how when did

01:28:22.920 you do hundreds of practice tests if they ever did come home with a b but or or something less

01:28:26.780 yeah you know that part it's it's it's exaggerated and comical but that part is true uh it's it's comical

01:28:33.720 and by the way it was kind of pretty ugly with let me talk about there was a lot of unpleasant

01:28:39.640 yelling and screaming so you have to factor that into whether it's worth it or not um i don't know

01:28:44.460 what my husband would say but the but i you know so that's another reason that i kind of am proud like

01:28:50.100 it this it's not easy to be a tiger mom this way like it's it's so much easier to say oh my god i love

01:28:55.520 my children so much i'm going out for a glass of wine with my friends you know um and i i i think this

01:29:01.120 is general a more general point about women trying to strike this balance honestly i just felt what i

01:29:06.940 gave up was leeway in my life you know like i i just woke up earlier and earlier i could be very

01:29:11.600 regimented um you know i'd see my husband at the same job as me and he'd go out for coffee with

01:29:17.380 colleagues you know come home two hours late or you know i i just i couldn't do any of that so so for me

01:29:23.780 like a lot of women i just had to get more and more organized i mean i remember that i was like i was

01:29:27.880 always looking at my clock and honestly when i look back at that writing now i am exhausted like

01:29:32.920 i'm much older now i i just would not have the energy now to do that right i i admire the energy

01:29:38.620 and the commitment to it i feel like i'm i don't have it in me i'm old i feel like i just turned 50

01:29:43.020 but i'm i'm an old 50 i'm tired no i am i'm so tired i keep asking my primary care physician i'm

01:29:47.980 like i it's actually a funny story i went to him one time and i said i think i have lyme's disease and

01:29:51.900 he goes lime no s and i said i thought he was speaking spanish i said lime c he goes i'm not

01:29:57.180 speaking spanish lime is singular i'm like oh okay i said well i think i have lyme disease he

01:30:03.180 goes why i said because i'm exhausted all the time he goes well you work full-time and you have three

01:30:07.320 young children you're gonna be tired i'm like i don't think that's it he's like that's what it is

01:30:11.340 you you know whatever you're old and you you have three young children so i don't i'm exhausted just

01:30:16.940 thinking about you know like your story with the little white donkey and lulu i don't know i wouldn't

01:30:22.060 have it in me to stay on her and anyway do you want to tell that story because it's awesome it's

01:30:26.500 awesome that's funny yeah oh this is just my daughter lulu who is so funny but she is we just

01:30:33.520 fought like cats and dogs because her personality is very much like mine and she was just she was a

01:30:37.740 kid born saying no you know she said she wasn't going to college just all kinds of things uh oh i

01:30:42.640 remember when she was in like second grade uh we got a call from the teacher and the teacher said

01:30:46.460 um oh your daughter she says she's having visions you know it's she can't do any of the work because

01:30:51.800 she has visions and they wanted to do neurological tests and maybe add and all you know which it can

01:30:57.540 be very serious but i just know my daughter i was like she doesn't have visions and i said lulu

01:31:01.820 those are called daydreams and stop it you know and on that one i was right um but that little white

01:31:10.440 dog just it is a funny story but basically there was a song called little white donkey it's really cute

01:31:14.800 where the left hand on the right hand on the piano do different things and lulu just couldn't do it 0.99

01:31:19.480 and my husband and i had a big fight because there was a lot of screaming and yelling and he finally

01:31:23.580 pulls me aside and he's like amy have you ever considered that maybe she just physically can't do

01:31:29.120 it that she's just too young and doesn't have the coordination you know she was like six and i was 0.98

01:31:33.680 like oh okay you just don't believe in her you just want to be loved which is actually true you want

01:31:38.600 to take those to baseball games and you know water slides and but i don't care because i believe in

01:31:43.960 so i rolled up my sleeves and we went back and it was ugly you know we spent hours of fighting and

01:31:49.120 ripping up and the paper but at a certain point this weird thing happened her two hands came together

01:31:54.520 and suddenly she could play this difficult piece and it was a moment that she and i still both talk

01:32:00.900 about because she looked at me and she could not believe it she she did not think she could do it and

01:32:07.540 when her hands came together she would not leave the piano she was so proud of herself she just sat

01:32:13.000 there just wanted to do it over and over again and i've gotten so much crap from this people have 0.67

01:32:17.180 been like oh my god it's child abuse she would not let her daughter use the bathroom you know and this 1.00

01:32:22.980 was not guantanamo bay right like you know little little would be like can i go to the bathroom like

01:32:27.340 every five minutes um but she was using it but that's a great story for us because she she tells the

01:32:33.840 story now that when she much later 10 years later in high school taking a chemistry test she would get

01:32:39.780 blanks like she'd say oh my god i'm gonna fail i have a blank i'm drawing a blank and then she told

01:32:45.620 me that i would then remember wait i've had this feeling before this feeling of i absolutely know i

01:32:51.260 can't do it i can't do it but just by sticking with it and just by not giving up i discovered that i

01:32:56.680 actually could do it um and that is actually what i think is the real secret to true inner strength

01:33:03.940 real self-esteem that you have taught yourself at least once you know that way you know if i just

01:33:10.620 hang in there i actually can get a good outcome i love that see i i don't worry about uh what would

01:33:16.780 happen to my daughter if i did that i worry about whether i i have the energy to do it you know and

01:33:20.740 the wherewithal to do it myself because i i remember reading about it and you were like

01:33:24.280 she ripped up the the score you know the piano score and i taped it back together i put it put it

01:33:30.420 in plastic so she couldn't rip it up and then and jed jed was like well you know the girls are

01:33:37.620 different because you were you're saying your older sister sophia could play it when she was

01:33:40.780 and and you're like oh no not that everyone's special in their own special way oh no i will be

01:33:48.660 the hated one i will be the one you don't have to do a thing i'll be the hated one she's gonna play 1.00

01:33:53.360 it and she did she did i do think too often we let our kids off the hook too early and leave them

01:34:00.780 with the opposite feeling of you know what i was right i couldn't yes that's a perfect way of putting

01:34:06.160 it let's talk about school in general now like the broader because i feel like the country is going in

01:34:12.140 in a very different way we're getting a little softer when it comes to sats and testing and and

01:34:18.580 schools in general because we're starting to believe that little junior shouldn't be forced

01:34:23.300 to take tests and you know maybe it's going to hurt their self-esteem or their happiness level

01:34:28.460 what do you think yeah i have such complicated views about this and it might surprise you i mean i

01:34:33.780 actually think that our entire education system is broken um i'm a little older than you and i it's

01:34:39.920 just it wasn't like this you know i i worked hard but it it's impossible to to like i don't even

01:34:47.720 think people should be aiming for the ivy league all the time anymore i know that's shocking to say

01:34:51.900 because you know my younger self i was obsessed with it i'll be the first to say that's all i could

01:34:55.440 think about but the way it is right now and other people have written about this it's it's almost like

01:35:00.700 you can't make a single mistake you know you have a bad year in junior high school or high school

01:35:05.460 you know because everybody has a bad year and suddenly you can't get into top schools

01:35:09.060 you have everybody has a tutor kids worrying about college at the age of 12 it's just i think it's crazy

01:35:15.300 and if you're it goes back to tribalism if you are in the middle of the country it used to be just 50

01:35:20.380 years ago that you could go to a state school do pretty well i mean work hard and you could make it

01:35:27.280 to the coast and you could rise i mean right now yeah you know you even if you're wealthy from wealthy

01:35:33.780 parents you could barely get to these top schools so i i think something is just deeply wrong with

01:35:38.540 i think our kids are so stressed at a much earlier age um that you know i had super crazy strict

01:35:46.300 parents and i just had all this free time i had all this free time when i was little um so i think

01:35:51.800 that um there's i think this is something i agree with you about like not getting too lax i think we

01:35:57.780 should have standards of i'm so into sat vocabulary words i can't tell you like for a lot of immigrants

01:36:03.700 and poor people that is actually something that you can actually do by working hard you don't have

01:36:10.120 to you know uh i mean obviously wealthy people at advantage they can get these courses but i i think

01:36:15.300 that words are important for power i used to say with lulu when i was fighting with her about the sats

01:36:20.140 words memorize the exact definition because words are power you need them even to fight me you need

01:36:27.420 them i would i would yell with her um but i i think we need a revamping i mean something's really wrong

01:36:32.920 okay so what about that yeah because you do we we see some people pushing for a lowering of

01:36:38.720 standards but in the meantime we're in the midst of you know an epidemic with young children or

01:36:45.380 teenagers who are on drugs and overwhelmed with stress and anxiety at the pressures of trying to get

01:36:53.140 ahead in a world where all their classmates are doing the same so what do we do about it so i'm not an

01:37:00.460 you know expert in education but my general view maybe goes back to my own experience with this

01:37:05.700 kind of tiger parenting is i i don't believe in lowering standards at all um i think that's going

01:37:11.820 to come back to haunt uh everybody i mean we need people who can do math and who can read you know even

01:37:18.100 with the new digital technology that's not going to change but we do need to do all these studies show

01:37:25.160 that you have to start really early with children um and i'm not talking about kids like yours and mine

01:37:30.120 now but but just if you really want people to have a level playing field um and so i don't know i thought

01:37:36.600 a lot about like maybe there's going to be another stage in my life where i kind of focus on this you

01:37:41.060 know because i did it it's such a concentrated form with my own children um i would love to you know

01:37:49.380 contribute back you know to the country in a way because i i i believe that if you just tell kids

01:37:56.080 can let kids know that you believe in them and just do a couple of things right i i don't know

01:38:01.440 you know i i'm a big education fan but i'm not answering this question very well because i i'm just

01:38:05.520 not an education expert and i'm i'm because you're like there i did stress out my kids and it all worked

01:38:10.740 out well in the end it doesn't it doesn't end badly for everyone and it's gotten even worse since

01:38:15.400 they were i mean they're you know they're again they're in their 20s and i think things have gotten

01:38:19.620 progressively worse from 50 years ago to when i was in college oh yeah can i tell you yeah so we we went

01:38:26.540 to one of these um uh like parent events here in new york where you just sit in the audience and they

01:38:30.940 get people from all the private schools kids from all the private schools and and you don't know

01:38:34.880 which school they went to but they they're all in high school and they all have an experience

01:38:38.800 and one of the guys who was there he was so so smart so open he goes to the parents his random

01:38:46.180 parents in an auditorium full of people he said do you want to know why your kids are so effed up

01:38:50.720 because they're all told they have to achieve perfect days they all have to play at least three sports

01:38:57.560 they all have to be in at least 10 clubs and they're looking for an out they're they're they're

01:39:04.220 on drugs because they're looking for an escape and of course all the parents in the audience are

01:39:08.500 they're like holy shit oh no right i know it scares me because i i do want to drive them and 0.68

01:39:15.520 i do want them to think to believe that they can handle a lot but i don't want that i agree and i

01:39:22.280 see that in my students it's like a a burden on them almost like a joylessness which i i think it's

01:39:29.360 new you know it's new it's like they come in instead of just being so excited to learn i mean i don't

01:39:34.820 want to over romanticize it but it's like they from the beginning they're worried about the next

01:39:38.800 step you know all the things that they need to do and they're stressed stressed stressed and

01:39:42.920 i don't know i just think i know it sounds very non-tigerish but i just think life is too short so

01:39:47.740 i i agree with you i think that's a real problem and i i think it's something new it's a new problem

01:39:52.060 uh you know worse than it was say even you know five or ten years ago

01:39:55.800 next book is going to be peaceful meow of the kitten mom

01:39:59.580 okay now let's talk about college admissions for a minute before i let you go because

01:40:06.540 it's i had to get your take on the college admission scandal and you know somebody who's

01:40:11.340 at elite universities has has daughters at elite universities um you went to them and you teach at

01:40:16.540 one what did you think of that i'm sure you weren't surprised like most of us most of us were

01:40:21.040 you know mouths agape but were you were you surprised i wasn't surprised uh i so basically

01:40:27.620 the the whole college admission scandal represents the exact opposite of tiger parenting um so tiger

01:40:35.280 parenting i had somebody uh very astute once say it's reading the book they're saying this is so

01:40:40.320 strange because as a mom as a western mom i'm always i want my kids to have an easier life so i'm

01:40:45.080 always like removing obstacles from them so that their life can be smoother but i see that as a tiger

01:40:50.560 mom you're putting obstacles in their way you know it's like obstacles for them to train you know um

01:40:56.400 and so this college admissions thing is the extreme of non-tiger parenting where uh i think it's the worst

01:41:02.980 thing on on earth i mean number one you're doing it for the kids number two they're not earning it so

01:41:08.560 there is zero self-esteem or inner confidence being gained from that in addition to just completely

01:41:14.080 cheating out other people um so to me i think that probably represents people who were afraid that

01:41:21.280 they couldn't compete on the merits um you know either with children who are naturally motivated or

01:41:27.840 i don't know you know immigrant kids or something um so but i i'm not that it relates back to the

01:41:34.880 previous conversation i think there's something broke about our system that makes people so desperate

01:41:39.380 that they feel they they're they need to do that out of out of love for their children right i know

01:41:45.420 and and it's like it's crazy that's that's sort of the grift we didn't necessarily know about that

01:41:50.920 gen pop which in which i include myself when it comes to this kind of thing uh we didn't know it was

01:41:55.380 happening it's the the open grift has been more of a story where it's like a your connections over time

01:42:01.540 right you're sort of your dad went to yale your grandfather went to yale and therefore you go to yale

01:42:05.760 that's one thing but people you know they spend people are making millions and millions of dollars

01:42:10.920 of donations to these universities just to pave the path for their kids and whenever i see that i'm

01:42:15.400 like how does the kid in you know florida who's working so hard to be valedictorian of his high

01:42:21.700 school which by the way you were too um of course uh how does he stand any chance how does he stand any

01:42:29.620 chance the way the systems work today and how important you know your ability to donate is

01:42:34.520 yeah it's terrible i agree i mean i you know inequality is a huge problem um and i think

01:42:41.000 for me it's inequality of opportunity that is the thing that i focus on uh and you're exactly right

01:42:47.380 i mean this kind of thing is the antithesis right it's it's the it's the definition of an unlevel

01:42:52.740 playing field where people with parents with more money and connections um and and to be honest i see

01:42:59.240 it all the time i mean and you know it's i understand the temptation like like you i know a lot of

01:43:04.280 people and you know we love our children we want to help them and i think it goes back to um kind of

01:43:10.480 needing self-restraint to telling yourself that as a parent the best thing you could do for them is not

01:43:16.120 just to make everything easier necessarily it sort of goes back to the beginning of our conversation

01:43:22.340 which is you know you said this broken education system stops people from moving into the elites you

01:43:29.260 know group of the elites not that's necessarily their goal but the point is the elites kind of

01:43:34.680 stop them from entering and the system perpetuates itself including the resentment and the tribalism

01:43:41.000 that comes from these divisions which are just so dug in exactly and in both directions you see that

01:43:47.000 for a lot of the people who are not the cosmopolitan elites there's this anti-expert thing these pointy

01:43:53.520 had people and that can be very dangerous also you know uh so so yeah it's a big problem running in

01:43:59.260 all directions well if you want to understand how we got so divided on things like covid even uh you

01:44:05.880 should check out amy's book you should read them all really because you'll learn a lot as you can tell

01:44:09.460 i am looking forward to seeing what comes next now i want to see what the tiger grandma

01:44:13.780 is like when the girls get a little older and they get married but it's been so fun catching up lots of love

01:44:20.500 today's episode was brought to you in part by scoremaster see how many points scoremaster can

01:44:26.540 add to your credit score today visit scoremaster.com slash mk now and while you're online why don't you

01:44:34.340 meander over and subscribe to the show i do i sound like a broken record i really want you to do it just

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01:44:48.700 as well please um i think you should download all of them but just the ones you like is okay too

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01:45:21.080 you

The Megyn Kelly Show - January 04, 2021

Amy Chua on the Climate on Campuses, Political Tribalism, and Being a ＂Tiger Mom＂｜ Ep. 46

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript

The Megyn Kelly Show - January 04, 2021

Amy Chua on the Climate on Campuses, Political Tribalism, and Being a ＂Tiger Mom＂ ｜ Ep. 46

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript

Amy Chua on the Climate on Campuses, Political Tribalism, and Being a ＂Tiger Mom＂｜ Ep. 46