The Megyn Kelly Show - Antifa's Violent Rise and Next Move, with Andy Ngo and Shelby Talcott ｜ Ep. 67

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00:00:30.600 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:32.520 Your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:42.120 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:00:43.740 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:45.300 Today on the program, we've got Andy Ngo and Shelby Talcott.

00:00:50.340 Now Andy is now a New York Times bestselling author

00:00:54.420 of the book Unmasked.

00:00:56.420 It's all about Antifa.

00:00:58.520 And Shelby is a reporter, young, up-and-coming, whippersnapper reporter for the Daily Caller

00:01:04.380 who has found herself right in the middle of all the melees that we've been watching

00:01:08.080 over the past year, especially over the summer of unrest.

00:01:11.340 And I do mean right in the middle of them and the most infamous of them.

00:01:15.520 So we're going to get into what is this group?

00:01:17.780 What is Antifa?

00:01:19.000 How does it operate in real life with the reporters who are actually on the ground covering

00:01:23.920 it?

00:01:24.360 And not just the ones who swing by in the middle of the night to do a live shot and look

00:01:29.700 good on CNN.

00:01:30.380 These are actual reporters who have been following Antifa, protest after protest, riot after riot.

00:01:37.260 What is the truth?

00:01:38.060 Is it as Joe Biden says, this is an idea, not an organization?

00:01:41.740 Or is it actually an organization that has tactical moves, means of communicating, and

00:01:48.100 rather disturbing approaches to weaponry and ideology?

00:01:53.980 We're going to get into all of it, and you will be a lot smarter about Antifa when we

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00:03:42.800 And now, Andy Ngo.

00:03:45.820 I've been watching you.

00:03:47.440 First, I saw like a couple of clips on Fox.

00:03:49.940 I'm like, who is that guy?

00:03:51.020 Then I started to read more about you.

00:03:52.360 Then I saw you get attacked, and I was like, holy shit, I need to know who this is.

00:03:55.760 So it's an honor to have you here.

00:03:57.740 Thank you for doing this.

00:03:59.060 Thank you, and congratulations on the success of the podcast.

00:04:02.200 Thank you very much, and congrats on the success of your book.

00:04:06.900 It is called Unmasked, Inside Antifa's Radical Plan to Destroy Democracy.

00:04:13.360 And it's hard to find true experts on this group, Antifa.

00:04:17.360 I think most of us regular folks don't totally understand it, and you're going to help us

00:04:22.680 understand it.

00:04:23.240 But before we get to your book, let's just talk about you so the audience knows who you

00:04:27.820 are.

00:04:28.040 You're 33 years old, your parents immigrated to America from Vietnam in 1978, and where

00:04:34.660 did you grow up?

00:04:35.920 I grew up primarily in Portland.

00:04:37.840 And somehow, notwithstanding that, you wound up, quote, center right.

00:04:43.560 That's how you describe your politics.

00:04:45.040 How on earth did that happen?

00:04:46.720 So I think, well, it goes back to actually when I was a student journalist, when I was a

00:04:53.640 graduate student at Portland State University, and Megan at that time, and then I have just

00:05:01.380 admired your journalism for so many years.

00:05:04.480 And I think what I was motivated to do was to pursue the stories that I didn't see being

00:05:11.740 told.

00:05:12.200 And at that time, as a student journalist, what all my peers and editors were telling

00:05:18.780 me is that Trump supporters are racist, and, you know, everything that we've heard now

00:05:25.200 for more than four years.

00:05:27.700 And, you know, it was much more of a nuanced picture when I actually got to interact with

00:05:33.140 students who, for whatever reasons, were right of center and were quiet about it.

00:05:39.100 And eventually, I think more and more, I moved more to the center right rather than libertarian,

00:05:46.320 which is how I identified before.

00:05:48.940 And I got started on the Antifa beat in November of 2016, when I was on assignment to cover the

00:05:57.700 protest reactions in Portland.

00:05:59.660 And so on that night in November, tens of thousands of Portlanders took out because they

00:06:06.940 could not accept the election results that Trump have won.

00:06:11.220 And within that, there was a faction of them that dressed head to toe in black and carrying

00:06:17.120 melee weapons, and they destroyed numerous businesses, property, they started fires.

00:06:23.040 And that was the first time I came face to face with Antifa.

00:06:26.000 I didn't know who or what they were at that time, but it was quite shocking to see that

00:06:30.140 level of organized violence taking place in my hometown.

00:06:36.540 As you're watching it, you're thinking, all right, so there seems to be a collection of

00:06:39.980 people here who are organized, who are not sort of grassroots protesters, but maybe more

00:06:46.720 sophisticated than that.

00:06:48.000 And at that point, you didn't know that they were part of this group called Antifa.

00:06:52.480 And so how did you go about figuring that out and then getting to the bottom of what Antifa

00:06:58.240 is?

00:06:59.740 Great question, Megan.

00:07:00.640 So the headlines that were coming out in Portland at that time and for the next four years were

00:07:08.340 that these were, quote unquote, anti-fascists taking to the streets to oppose white supremacy

00:07:14.300 and neo-Nazism in the far right.

00:07:17.400 But what I was seeing were people brandishing symbols of an organization, said anti-fascist

00:07:25.320 action.

00:07:26.960 And they had this logo, the two flags, a black flag and a red flag.

00:07:30.860 And I was listening to the chants and I could tell there was a coherent ideology behind what

00:07:37.080 they were doing, that this wasn't just a grassroots spur of the moment, anti-racist protests, as

00:07:43.880 we were being led to believe by the headlines.

00:07:47.180 And the more I looked into them, the more their violence is becoming embedded in Portland as

00:07:53.780 well as other cities.

00:07:54.820 So from 2017 on to 2020, the violence really did become routine on the streets.

00:08:02.800 We were having monthly street brawls of far left people fighting Trump supporters and they

00:08:10.880 became really bloody and lots of violence.

00:08:16.420 And again, the media coverage was not informing the public on who these people actually were.

00:08:23.780 And the more I looked into the ideology, I saw that I learned that these were anarchist

00:08:30.320 communists who were using the label and brand of anti-fascism to hide and cover for a much

00:08:38.200 more extremist political ideology and agenda.

00:08:43.960 Antifa, according to your book, you describe it as a violent extremist movement attacking all

00:08:49.640 kinds of targets under the guise of anti-fascism.

00:08:52.920 But what they really want, you say, is to destroy America.

00:08:57.660 What do you mean by that?

00:08:59.200 Yeah, that sounds like hyperbole and really dramatic.

00:09:01.920 But if you look at their literature and it's available on all their various think tanks and

00:09:07.240 websites and their social media, and they also give it out at their riots and also when they

00:09:13.140 create autonomous zones.

00:09:14.320 The literature provides a basis for why the United States is not a legitimate state, and

00:09:22.380 not only that it needs to be, that it cannot be reformed, that it must be destroyed.

00:09:28.400 And they call America a fascist imperialistic state, and they view free markets and freedom

00:09:36.320 of expressions as vectors for fascism to spread.

00:09:40.060 So they have this particular view and interpretation of the 20th century that if Hitler and the Nazis

00:09:49.020 had never been allowed to speak, had never been allowed to organize in public, that the Holocaust 0.88

00:09:55.660 would have been averted.

00:09:57.820 So they hold a very extreme view, as you see, and they're not just anti-freedom of expression.

00:10:05.740 They believe that the response to ideas that they don't like is to respond using violence

00:10:12.280 against their targets.

00:10:13.400 So were they lying in wait all this time?

00:10:18.900 I mean, I'm sure they existed prior to this summer of unrest, but describe what they were

00:10:25.700 doing prior to that.

00:10:28.740 Antifa in the United States have been around since the 80s, and the original first Antifa

00:10:34.860 started in the end of four years in Germany during the Weimar Republic, and the capital A Antifa,

00:10:42.120 and it was a paramilitary group of the German Communist Party.

00:10:46.400 And at that time, the people that they were calling fascists weren't just the brown-trods, 0.96

00:10:50.740 but also the social democrats, the governing center-left party.

00:10:55.340 So from its inception, this label of fascism has always been applied to any political opponent.

00:11:02.520 And when East Germany was created as a communist state after World War II, they actually instituted

00:11:08.840 some of this so-called anti-fascist ideology at the state level.

00:11:13.800 And what they developed was essentially they called America and the West fascism.

00:11:22.480 When they built the Berlin Wall, it was called the anti-fascist defense barrier.

00:11:27.280 So there's decades going back to the history of how anti-fascism, quote-unquote, doesn't

00:11:36.280 mean actually what it sounds like, but rather to the far left.

00:11:40.580 It's applied not just to liberals, but anybody who is a political, ideological opponent to

00:11:47.840 them.

00:11:49.020 Mm-hmm.

00:11:49.320 So if you don't want to destroy America, you're on the enemy's list.

00:11:53.540 So I don't know.

00:11:55.020 Maybe it's just me, because I don't remember hearing that much about these guys prior to

00:11:57.980 this summer.

00:11:58.840 And then it was like, they were everywhere.

00:12:02.620 And then there was a real question about how much of the violence at these BLM riots we

00:12:07.260 saw was caused by BLM protesters and how much was caused by Antifa.

00:12:12.240 Do you have any sense for that?

00:12:14.640 Because I read in one of the unkind, and not surprisingly, your book is not being nicely

00:12:19.820 reviewed, even though it's at the top of the bestseller list, right?

00:12:22.520 Because of course, the leftist media doesn't like anything talking about Antifa.

00:12:27.220 But I read a stat in one of those articles that said the Center for Strategic and International

00:12:33.200 Studies came out finding that Antifa had, quote, a minor role in the violence that did occur

00:12:39.480 over the summer of unrest, most of which was driven by a local autonomous group of actors

00:12:46.200 and that the organization's threat was relatively small.

00:12:50.460 Do you agree with that?

00:12:53.080 No, I don't agree with that.

00:12:54.380 Because so the way that Antifa is organized, one of the common misconceptions is that some

00:13:00.580 people think it is a single organization, capital A, and that is structured in a traditional

00:13:07.880 hierarchical way.

00:13:09.380 That's not how they're organized.

00:13:11.240 So when Biden, last year during a debate, echoed the head of the FBI, deciding Antifa

00:13:17.780 as an ideology, that's not incorrect, but it's just an incomplete statement.

00:13:22.380 So in addition to being an ideology, an ideology of anarchist communism, extremist anarchist communism,

00:13:29.200 it's also made up of networks of groups and cells that are organized around a common ideology.

00:13:39.360 And they operate primarily autonomously, which makes dismantling very hard.

00:13:44.380 Their communications are done on encrypted chat applications like Signal.

00:13:51.440 So there's always plausible deniability for their involvement.

00:13:55.880 And usually where they have had the most success is when they embed themselves in larger demonstrations

00:14:01.900 and turn protests into riots.

00:14:05.280 So you asked a moment ago, it seems like they've kind of just come out of nowhere.

00:14:09.980 And I was saying that they've been around on the fringes of the far left in the United States since the 80s.

00:14:14.780 But starting in 2016, they were really able to move into the mainstream left because they had the legitimacy that was given by the mainstream media,

00:14:27.140 the legacy media and journalists and politicians who are now talking about the election of Trump signal that we were on the cusp of another Holocaust, 0.74

00:14:38.680 that this is American fascism, that people needed to resist.

00:14:42.660 They were using all these words of war.

00:14:44.900 Well, like people like AOC who sound a lot like the her messages sometimes sound very similar to those we hear from Antifa.

00:14:54.120 Exactly.

00:14:54.960 And I write about in the book how there are politicians in the Democrat Party,

00:14:59.320 high level politicians who have at best been provided rhetoric that is encouraging to Antifa.

00:15:07.260 Antifa has actually encouraged people to donate to some of these campaigns that provide legal aid to accuse rioters.

00:15:16.920 And it's not just AOC who's done that for a riot that happened in Boston.

00:15:20.660 But now BP Kamala Harris has infamously tweeted out support for the Minnesota Freedom Fund, which bailed out every single person who wasn't just accused of rioting in Minnesota last year,

00:15:36.060 but also accused of attempted rape, attempted murder and other really heinous crimes.

00:15:40.480 Oh, no, that's crazy talk.

00:15:42.400 I mean, when she did that and others, I remember Justin Timberlake also offered to bail out.

00:15:47.780 It's like, do you understand what you're supporting?

00:15:49.980 You're not supporting black lives. 1.00

00:15:52.060 You're supporting violence and the murder of black lives. 1.00

00:15:55.000 Your book points out that most of those who were killed in this summer of violence we experienced were black.

00:16:01.820 And no one seems to want to deal with that fact.

00:16:04.800 But this is not about protecting black lives.

00:16:07.360 This movement, they hurt people with impunity.

00:16:11.120 Now, just to jump back to AOC for a second, because you you point this out in your book that she talks about how, you know, she wants to stop fascism.

00:16:18.860 And that's what Trump represents.

00:16:21.120 And that she routinely calls for reading from your book now the abolishment of ICE, defunding police and ending capitalism.

00:16:29.620 And that's exactly what Antifa wants and some chapters of Black Lives Matter wants. 0.60

00:16:38.740 Exactly.

00:16:39.640 So the Antifa have some like longer term goals.

00:16:44.640 Abolishing the U.S. is obviously quite a grand goal.

00:16:48.680 But they they have certain things that they are doing in the meantime.

00:16:51.560 And one of which is to completely delegitimize the rule of law, which is why they're attacking a lot of these institutions that represent like border enforcement, police, et cetera.

00:17:03.720 And as for AOC, it's really been shocking to see how her really radical and extreme language, such as referring to border detention centers as concentration camps.

00:17:16.180 Those same words were repeated by Willem van Sponsen, which is an Antifa extremist who launched a firebomb attack in Tacoma, Washington in 2019.

00:17:27.240 He came down with a rifle and homemade and sundry devices and blew up a vehicle and tried to blow up, according to police, a 500 gallon propane tank that was attached to the building.

00:17:37.940 And he was shot dead and he left behind a manifesto that in part quoted from AOC.

00:17:42.960 So it's but again, these politicians who are now focusing on language and incitement around Trump, they're never held accountable for their incitement to violence.

00:17:58.640 And so so you point out in the book that there's a relation, of course, because we saw Antifa coming out at the BLM protests over the summers, you know, that the riots were turned into riots.

00:18:09.720 That's where Antifa gets involved. And there's a quote in the book from Patrice Cullors, one of the one of the founders of BLM, saying our task is not only to abolish prisons, policing and militarization.

00:18:24.680 We must also demand reparations. She called the United States the most extensive purveyor of human rights atrocities at home and abroad and called for the dismantling of the United States.

00:18:34.620 Basically, this is the quote of abolition means no borders. Abolition means no border patrol. Abolition means no immigration and customs enforcement.

00:18:44.460 I mean, that sounds like AOC. AOC sounds like Antifa. And these sort of the BLM, the Antifa protesters, some of these far left Democrat politicians are it's no accident that they have the same messaging and that we're hearing more and more about these mantras.

00:19:03.920 And sure enough. Like legitimate politicians push for the elimination of ICE. Right. And like Joe Biden completely changing our border policy now that he's taken over.

00:19:15.660 And I just wonder whether you think they've made huge progress over the past six months.

00:19:20.200 They have. I think people fail to recognize how wise some of the Antifa thinkers actually are in some of the strategies.

00:19:30.940 Obviously, the media focuses a lot on the street violence because it's visceral and shocking when it's called a video.

00:19:38.440 But the street violence is actually just one part of what they do.

00:19:41.920 So the ideology also includes things about trying to attack from within using, in some cases, legal, democratic election process.

00:19:57.320 So you have people elected to city councils in Portland, in Seattle, in Minneapolis and other cities who are echoing Antifa propaganda talking points about abolishing police.

00:20:10.520 Essentially mainstreaming their ideology.

00:20:12.780 That's the most important thing that they're doing in having allies who are elected officials is this mainstreaming because Antifa, they're so extreme that they have to be whitewashed and legitimized in the wider left to in order to be able to be palatable and to be able to introduce their ideology incrementally to people and to radicalize them.

00:20:37.280 So it's been no surprise that they've been able to sort of just explode as an American phenomenon four years ago because we were being fed day in and day out that we were now living under American fascism and that people had to resist by any means necessary.

00:20:55.020 And all the political violence that was being done on the left was being incrementally tolerated.

00:21:03.600 I was really disturbed initially when people were celebrating the punch and Nazi memes.

00:21:11.360 I mean, at that time, I recognized that it's, you know, can be easy to sort of just turn a blind eye when like an odious figure gets punched.

00:21:22.280 Right. But the messaging behind that was I was OK to inflict violence against people who are quote unquote Nazis.

00:21:29.160 And you saw this label who is a fascist or a Nazi being applied very, very broadly, which led to more violence throughout the next few years.

00:21:37.920 And then through 2020, in my view, we had insurrections attempted in parts of American urban areas.

00:21:47.020 And it was all excused and kind of now being I feel like we're being gaslit.

00:21:52.920 It's like all the focus on the 6th of January has overlooked the violence that was magnitudes larger, not just in terms of deaths and injuries,

00:22:01.580 but the destruction to livelihoods and billions of dollars to the American economy.

00:22:07.040 That's no accident. That's that's no accident. That's what the Democrats wanted.

00:22:10.460 And that's what the media wanted was to move on from the rioting and the death that we saw over the summer and move back to a place that they felt most comfortable,

00:22:18.920 which is blaming Trump supporters for being racist, white supremacist, awful, terrible people.

00:22:24.700 And and, you know, you point out correctly, I think, how these goals and TIFA's goals and some of the BLM goals have backfired.

00:22:35.660 We've seen already. Right. You had Minneapolis and its attempt to defund its police fall apart entirely.

00:22:41.680 Already they're reversing it. Portland, Oregon, you point out in the book, they someone thought it would be a good idea to dismantle the, quote, gun violence reduction team.

00:22:51.760 Someone's like, let's get let's get. Yeah, those guys trying to reduce gun violence, get rid of them.

00:22:56.560 And guess what happened when they did that? Why don't you tell the audience?

00:23:00.640 Yes, we had skyrocketing shootings in Portland and unprecedented, unprecedented levels in recent decades for shooting homicides.

00:23:10.920 And this is not a phenomenon that's unique just to Portland. It's across America.

00:23:16.060 Like there are really severe consequences to this implementation of the BLM Antifa agenda.

00:23:23.940 And what they're trying to do is really to destabilize local areas and to create power vacuums like this whole this wholesale demoralizing of police has had really profound effects.

00:23:36.460 I think you can look in the Pacific Northwest, which is where I'm most familiar, you're having like low record levels of low number of officers, record high numbers of resignations and early retirements.

00:23:50.200 And even when police want to respond to riots that are happening on the streets, which are still happening to this day in Seattle and Portland, there is just not the resources to respond.

00:24:04.240 So people are really suffering.

00:24:05.900 More with Andy in just one second.

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00:25:47.120 And they're out there not just looting and burning things, which is bad enough.

00:25:57.380 I mean, they're burning police headquarters, city buildings.

00:26:00.880 This is legit.

00:26:02.460 I mean, there absolutely could be loss of life, and there has been.

00:26:06.180 But I was shocked to see in the book some of the tactics that they use and the weapons that they work that you wouldn't know is a weapon, like the umbrellas, the water bottles.

00:26:22.500 Can you just talk a little bit about the weapons that they bring with them?

00:26:26.600 Yeah, so to put this into context, so people are very familiar with what happened on 6th of January in Capitol Hill.

00:26:34.640 All that and worse happened night after night after night for more than 120 days in Portland.

00:26:41.780 And Portland is a major American city.

00:26:43.860 It's one of the largest ones in the Pacific Northwest.

00:26:46.640 And night after night, what I was seeing is that people dressed in the same black uniforms were bringing knives, homemade explosives, guns to their riots.

00:27:01.600 And they were setting fires to buildings for people inside.

00:27:05.220 In July, when a lot of the parachute journalists from D.C. New York came to Portland to cover some of the rioting, the Antifa night after night were trying to burn down a federal courthouse.

00:27:16.640 Like, that's a big deal.

00:27:20.260 And they were throwing these modified firework explosives to injure the federal officers.

00:27:28.480 And Ken Cuccinelli last year had gave testimony to the Senate where he was talking about the really severe injuries that the officers had to deal with, including PTSD, by the way.

00:27:41.000 And the response in the press, the headlines, and the response from even the governor and the senators in Oregon and other places were that they were describing the officers as Trump's secret police and occupying force, Gestapo.

00:27:56.240 And the pictures that they had, like, this was such a fascinating window into, like, how propaganda is made in real time.

00:28:05.320 So all these people with cameras and photos, they were photographing people holding things that looked relatively innocuous as projectiles, such as water bottles or them holding umbrellas.

00:28:16.240 But as police noted, in Portland, some of the umbrellas were affixed with small knives at the end of the sticks, at the end of their umbrellas.

00:28:24.820 The water bottles were frozen solid, and they were using that to throw, hurl it at police officers' faces and heads.

00:28:32.980 They were buying these lasers through online websites, lasers that are capable of causing permanent eye vision damage.

00:28:42.180 And they had a whole brigade set up that would target on a single topic, a single victim.

00:28:48.360 So eye injuries are one of the things that Ken Cuccinelli had reported.

00:28:53.120 And this was being done day in and day out.

00:28:56.860 And in July, when the federal officers finally withdrew some of their numbers at the courthouse,

00:29:05.700 I remember the media headlines were saying that with the police gone, that the problems are going to go away.

00:29:13.620 Everything was their fault.

00:29:15.240 No, what happened next was the rioters then moved to residential areas of Portland and set fires to police stations.

00:29:23.120 This is gross, but the behavior on Capitol Hill the day of the riot was awful in every way.

00:29:33.720 But one of the things that got coverage, just because it was so desecrating to such an important and special place,

00:29:39.400 was how people were smearing feces on the walls of the U.S. Capitol building.

00:29:44.580 That's one of the reasons why it jumped out to me in your book, what Antifa does with balloons.

00:29:53.500 Can you speak to that?

00:29:55.260 Yeah.

00:29:55.640 So they made all these homemade projectiles in addition to the things I mentioned.

00:30:01.260 But in some of the police reports that were put out locally, water balloons were being filled with a slush mixture of feces and water.

00:30:14.260 And that was being hurled at officers.

00:30:17.680 They were also filling water balloons with paint.

00:30:20.480 And that was used to obscure the visions of police.

00:30:25.020 And they were also creating sort of like mini explosive devices by using light bulbs and throwing them filled with paint at the faces of police.

00:30:37.560 So, like, the type of violence that they were doing didn't require a high level of sophistication, but they were able to do severe damage.

00:30:51.160 And on top of that, they came armed with guns.

00:30:54.720 And at the end of August, in Portland, one of the so-called self-styled Antifa security people ended up stalking out a Trump supporter in downtown Portland and shooting him point-blank dead.

00:31:09.380 And then he fled to another state before later getting killed by federal authorities.

00:31:15.060 So this ideology, extremism, has produced death.

00:31:19.800 And I get so frustrated whenever I keep seeing this lie repeated by politicians and in various biased publications that say Antifa has killed nobody.

00:31:33.600 Like, you can, that's empirically false.

00:31:38.680 And then you can also look at the trail of misery that they've caused.

00:31:43.080 And that's significant.

00:31:44.240 And it's just, it's, it makes me so sick that this violence, extremism, essentially terroristic acts are being excused because of people doing it or saying they're doing it in the name of anti-racism and anti-fascism.

00:32:01.500 So what's incredible is they're using all these tactics.

00:32:05.140 I can't imagine what it's like to be a police officer in Portland.

00:32:08.300 Oh, good gracious, those poor men and women having to deal with all of this.

00:32:12.700 And then you point out that they, they, they're very clever.

00:32:16.140 They, they use protesters who are there as human shields.

00:32:20.080 They know when the cameras are running, so they know how to make themselves look like they're not the aggressors.

00:32:25.700 They're, they're savvy.

00:32:28.040 But in the meantime, what you refer to as the parachute journalists who just parachute in and try to, you know, I covered the riot.

00:32:35.460 Come back and issue reports like we saw in the Washington Post, which is, I think it was mostly unremarkable.

00:32:41.260 And then you've got places like the Oregonian, which you point out in the book, won't even print the mugshots of the Antifa folks who, who have been arrested or the BLM folks.

00:32:52.040 I guess they think it's racist.

00:32:53.220 Um, so you've got a complicit media that runs cover for them.

00:32:58.720 And we saw it too, when Joe Biden said, right, it's just an idea.

00:33:02.660 It's, it's not an organization.

00:33:04.240 And they all ran cover to say, oh, that's true.

00:33:06.180 That's true.

00:33:06.500 That's true.

00:33:06.820 So you have a media that's really not interested in the violence that they're perpetuating or the truth about this group.

00:33:14.300 Yeah, I think people don't appreciate how serious things got just months ago.

00:33:21.800 I mean, BLM and Antifa extremists in Seattle, which is the largest city in the Pacific Northwest, they actually took over six blocks of city property and created a hard border with checkpoints that were manned by their security, who were brandishing semi-auto rifles and pistols and other things.

00:33:42.860 And they created essentially a hostage situation for the thousands of people who lived in that area.

00:33:49.300 And that was allowed to go on for three weeks by the mayor of Seattle and the governor of Washington state.

00:33:56.580 And that devolved very quickly into nightly violence, shootings, attempted rape, mass vandalism and murders.

00:34:04.660 And, like, people just seem to, I mean, the reporting at the time, I remember, was, it was being described as a block party atmosphere.

00:34:14.520 Like, these were journalists who were from corporate media who came in with their security and then at night they would leave and they didn't see all these other things that were happening.

00:34:24.740 And one thing that I didn't see reported anywhere, but I write about in the book was in CHAZ, this so-called autonomous zone that existed in Seattle last summer.

00:34:38.200 They have these literature booths set up where they were distributing booklets that they printed out.

00:34:45.540 And the ideas contained within those pages are so extreme.

00:34:52.060 It's like what you would find, I think, for, like, a jihadist group.

00:34:56.460 Like, things that were providing sort of the ideological and theoretical justification for political violence against other people.

00:35:03.980 Why you should use human body shields.

00:35:07.080 How to barricade yourself within a building, prevent police from getting inside.

00:35:12.740 How to create homemade weapons.

00:35:14.100 This was being given out, I saw, to, like, youth and even kids.

00:35:17.640 It was being passed out like candy.

00:35:19.900 And the response from the mayor, at least well until this occupation, was to go and see an end and to say to Chris Cuomo that this could be a summer of love.

00:35:33.840 Oh, good gracious.

00:35:35.300 And same with the Portland mayor, Wheeler.

00:35:37.580 That guy was a hot mess.

00:35:39.120 He was begging for their approval.

00:35:41.020 It wasn't there for the taking.

00:35:42.420 And at the end of, you know, his summer on the knee, he announced he's moving.

00:35:49.500 Right?

00:35:50.260 Do I have my facts right?

00:35:52.980 Yeah.

00:35:53.380 So one misconception that exists on the right is that people think that Antifa are Democrat voters, that they support Democrat parties.

00:36:04.060 Now, they tolerate some Democrat politicians, particularly AOC.

00:36:10.160 But by and large, they don't recognize any American government.

00:36:15.140 They view the entire United States as, in all its institutions, as irredeemably wicked and fascistic.

00:36:21.800 So this coddling that Ted Wheeler did for them for years, ever since he came into office in 2017, allowed, under his watch, allowed Antifa to better organize in his city and to grow and to establish a sort of apparatus in a blueprint that was replicated in other nearby cities.

00:36:43.500 And he really seemed to kind of want to appease them.

00:36:46.840 And that never works.

00:36:48.920 He can never appease them.

00:36:50.020 They rioted outside his home.

00:36:51.580 They set the condo where he was at on fire, which, by the way, is occupied by dozens of other families.

00:36:58.200 And in response, Wheeler, who's also the police commissioner, by the way, just simply announced that he was moving.

00:37:06.580 And I think what this is emblematic of is all these politicians like Wheeler, Jenny Durkan's not running for re-election, Antifa showed outside of her house.

00:37:17.040 They have the resources to go on and have a nice life, but the wake of the consequences of their political decisions and their poor leadership are really long-lasting for the people who remain in the cities where they were elected to power.

00:37:38.080 Of course, of course.

00:37:40.100 You know, we talked about the parachute journalists.

00:37:44.460 You, you're not one of them.

00:37:46.400 I mean, half the reason we know about this group is because of you, because you just continue to stay on it.

00:37:52.300 You saw a thing.

00:37:53.260 You did exactly what a good reporter is supposed to do.

00:37:55.020 You saw a thing.

00:37:55.920 You asked questions about the thing.

00:37:57.660 You investigated the thing.

00:37:58.960 You, I won't say infiltrated the thing, but you went where they went and covered the thing.

00:38:04.880 This, this moving sort of blob that we now know as Antifa, which is growing and getting more organized and very savvy and working the media and so on.

00:38:15.180 And as a result of all this, you became, as you described yourself, their public enemy number one.

00:38:22.340 And this is a dangerous group to have as one's enemy, as you've outlined.

00:38:28.620 And indeed, you were attacked.

00:38:32.080 You were physically attacked in June of 2019.

00:38:35.680 Um, it was a, it was a Proud Boys event.

00:38:40.720 These, I don't, I confess, I don't totally understand Proud Boys.

00:38:44.600 I mean, the left says it's a white supremacist group.

00:38:47.020 Then you see it's run by a black man. 0.52

00:38:49.160 I don't actually understand what it is.

00:38:50.580 Maybe you can enlighten me.

00:38:51.740 But they showed up as, like, I guess on the other side is how they would see themselves.

00:38:57.200 And you were attacked.

00:38:58.300 So before we get to the attack on you, can you explain what's Proud Boys exactly?

00:39:04.500 Proud Boys, uh, I think they get real, the reporting in the legacy press on Proud Boys is really inaccurate.

00:39:12.900 And they repeat a lot of the really inflammatory lies from, uh, those who oppose any pro-Trump type of organization.

00:39:23.520 So Proud Boys is a right-wing fraternity style type group.

00:39:30.100 They do social events.

00:39:32.140 Um, and I think probably they do things that are provocative in terms of, like, holding pro-Trump rallies in cities that are, um, predominantly blue.

00:39:42.460 Like Portland and Seattle and other urban areas.

00:39:45.900 And through the years, uh, some of their members have been involved in, um, these brawls that would frequently happen.

00:39:52.720 RTFE would come out to fight them and they'd fight back.

00:39:56.480 Um, some of their members have been convicted or are facing current charges for, uh, alleged involvement.

00:40:03.260 Uh, I know they're accused of having a role in the Capitol Hill riot.

00:40:06.640 Uh, I think, um, there's a lot to.

00:40:12.460 Um, be critical of what they do.

00:40:15.460 Um, but spreading lies about the organization, such as describing them as a, uh, neo-Nazi terrorist organization is not only, uh, unhelpful.

00:40:26.620 It actually motivates people on the left to come out and to respond in kind.

00:40:33.420 So if anything, I think the, uh, the poor reporting on Proud Boys has caused, um, counter reactions that have led to growing street brawls over the past few years.

00:40:47.260 Mm-hmm.

00:40:49.220 Okay.

00:40:49.700 So you're there to cover, you know, what, what promises to be a newsworthy event.

00:40:55.600 And how were, how were you attacked?

00:40:58.440 Because it made national news.

00:40:59.780 It, it was everywhere.

00:41:01.540 Um, what happened to you?

00:41:02.580 So what, what happened?

00:41:03.620 In 2018, I started becoming a target for Antifa after I wrote a piece that was published in the Wall Street Journal about the, their occupation during the summer of the local ice facility in Portland.

00:41:16.380 And they had, um, took over the exterior of the building, uh, in the early days and actually had created another hostage situation where staff inside could not actually leave because the exits were blocked.

00:41:29.800 Um, they ended up establishing this area that was an encampment, um, that became a life safety issue.

00:41:36.580 And after several weeks, the city was forced to dismantle it.

00:41:40.160 And so I wrote about everything that was happening, how the residents of that, that community were terrorized by these people who, uh, the Antifa were doing patrols on the streets and they would openly brandish batons and other weapons to intimidate the public.

00:41:55.080 And so that put me on their list of unfriendly media.

00:41:59.620 Uh, it continued to, uh, they're targeting of me, continue to escalate.

00:42:04.800 And then in the summer of 2019 was when that attack happened.

00:42:09.020 And it was, uh, a very large Antifa and democratic socialists of America gathering to pose what they said was a proud boy event.

00:42:19.340 There were about maybe 10, between 10 and 20 proud boys who were waving flags in another part of downtown.

00:42:27.120 And I came there as I had done many times to document a newsworthy event that was happening, uh, in public with my cameras.

00:42:36.040 And, uh, halfway through the day, um, I just, I was punched repeatedly in the head suddenly and kicked.

00:42:44.860 Um, and then when I thought that was done, I was just trying to get away.

00:42:50.940 Uh, it happened right in front of this, in the central police station.

00:42:54.400 Uh, but there were no police, uh, which, um, by that point was pretty normal for Portland.

00:43:00.300 The Antifa can just shut down traffic, uh, assault drivers and do it with impunity.

00:43:06.100 Uh, but as I was trying to walk away, that's when they threw all these liquids on me to blind me, uh, and to humiliate me.

00:43:14.940 And that's the photos and videos you see of me covered and all that stuff.

00:43:20.580 Um, nobody's been arrested over that.

00:43:23.020 It's been, uh, more than a year and a half since that happened.

00:43:27.140 Um, and the, the violence in Portland has continued to, to escalate.

00:43:32.480 My, my warnings to, uh, public officials about this threat that we were facing were ignored.

00:43:39.680 And, I mean, it gave rise to their four month campaign of terror last year.

00:43:47.040 What, what was in the quote milkshake that they threw on you?

00:43:52.100 I actually don't know.

00:43:53.500 So the Portland police at that time have put out, uh, a tweet based on intel they received that some of the, uh, milkshakes may have been tainted with quick drying cement.

00:44:05.880 Uh, but they never collected a sample, so it was never definitively confirmed.

00:44:11.080 And so, um, I had abrasions all over my face and the liquids were seeping in and it really, it felt like a burning sensation.

00:44:20.080 And I know that quick drying cement can be caustic.

00:44:23.640 Um, but I also had cuts all over, so I don't know which was which.

00:44:28.200 Um, I was hospitalized.

00:44:29.420 I had a brain hemorrhage, um, but I assume that was because of the repeated, um, punches to the head and to the eyes that they cause.

00:44:40.940 Can I just ask you, because one of the more infuriating things I've read recently is the LA Times review of your book.

00:44:48.400 You're best selling.

00:44:49.540 It's number five now on the, on the nonfiction hardcover New York Times list.

00:44:53.060 Despite boycotts, despite so much pushback for people who didn't want this book to see the light of day, it's, it's risen to the top.

00:45:02.800 And this LA Times book review, it will surprise no one that they didn't like the book, right?

00:45:08.220 Given all the discussions we've had, but this guy, and I, you know what?

00:45:13.500 I don't always name the journalists.

00:45:15.960 I don't know.

00:45:16.440 It's almost like a professional courtesy.

00:45:17.900 I just, when you call somebody up by name, I just, from my, for me, that's a higher bar.

00:45:23.680 You have to be a real prick for me to mention you by name.

00:45:26.340 Um, his name is Alexander Nazarian, N-A-Z-A-R-Y-A-N. 0.99

00:45:33.540 And he's talking about this incident.

00:45:36.900 And let me just read you part of what he writes.

00:45:39.000 Noh's fame, such as it is, stems from a June, 2019 Donnybrook in Portland, in the course of which Antifa activists assailed him with a thrown milkshake.

00:45:51.580 Noh claimed the milkshake contained concrete.

00:45:54.940 Far more likely it was a vegan blend, heavy on cashew butter.

00:45:59.320 Screw you, Alexander.

00:46:02.500 I guarantee you weren't there, had nothing thrown on you, and had no injuries.

00:46:08.080 Instead, you sat in some wingback chair made out of leather, trying to find fault with somebody else's on-the-scene reporting who got attacked and was hospitalized.

00:46:16.680 Okay, so that's just an aside.

00:46:18.440 Then he goes on and says,

00:46:20.180 Noh was punched and kicked as well.

00:46:22.340 He claims to have suffered a cerebral hemorrhage.

00:46:25.880 The violence was obviously criminal.

00:46:27.380 What goes unmentioned is that Noh had a history of embedding with right-wing groups, including, according to persuasive allegations he has denied,

00:46:37.240 the white supremacist outfit Patriot Prayer that provoke Antifa into the very fights Noh then films.

00:46:46.780 Get it?

00:46:47.700 So you're not the victim, even when you are the victim.

00:46:51.800 This must somehow be something you asked for, Andy, because you've embedded with a group that, according to Alexander, has white supremacist ties,

00:47:04.020 and there are persuasive allegations that you're part of this group that provokes Antifa.

00:47:10.620 So to you and your book, there's no evidence to support anything he says.

00:47:15.700 There's no evidence to support his vegan butter accusation trying to diminish you, right?

00:47:23.180 And by the way, not for nothing, but you're an openly gay man.

00:47:26.060 So in any other circumstance, you know, trying to, like, make light of your injuries and you're taking this seriously would be seen as an anti-gay attack, right?

00:47:37.400 They're trying to make you seem, oh, too weak to withstand the milkshake.

00:47:41.620 All the rules are different, though, because you're writing about a group he wants to protect.

00:47:45.360 So can I just ask you what your reaction is to Alexander Nazarian?

00:47:51.440 So Alexander is the White House correspondent for Yahoo News, and I was surprised that for somebody who works as a White House reporter,

00:48:01.080 that he used such inflammatory language in his writings.

00:48:07.240 In addition to what you read, there's another point in the review where he says that my book would make Herr Goebbels proud.

00:48:19.040 That type of, I mean, I just, I don't think it's appropriate to make that type of flippant remark just, like, so casually.

00:48:29.400 I mean, soon after he wrote that review, he had a piece come out in The Atlantic where he was describing himself,

00:48:37.920 comparing himself as a White House correspondent under the Trump administration as somebody who was, like, a World War II soldier in Europe.

00:48:46.860 So, you know, these are people who think so highly of themselves and think they're so brave

00:48:54.720 and diminish the works of other people that they look down on.

00:48:59.400 And this accusation that he said that is credible about me embedding with the far right, you know,

00:49:07.840 that came from an interview that was published in a left-wing Portland paper on a blog site

00:49:14.800 where the author gave anonymity to a person who made that completely baseless claim.

00:49:20.940 And I have absolutely no way of confronting my accuser.

00:49:25.160 And so it's made me, to see me, last year these things were then repeated and, like, the Rolling Stone and Salon

00:49:36.260 and all these other bigger publications and then they become what people see when they Google my name.

00:49:42.020 These accusations are then kind of at the forefront of my Wikipedia entry.

00:49:46.160 And it's just, like, it made me really, like, I never liked it when Trump described, like, the press as the enemy of the people.

00:49:56.740 But then when you're seeing what some of these people who work as professional journalists,

00:50:01.800 what they do to really try to, like, destroy somebody they don't even know,

00:50:07.380 and they do it in such a dishonest way, like, it makes me understand what Trump's sentiment was when he made that statement.

00:50:15.520 I don't know anything about patriot prayer or what they stand for.

00:50:20.520 I know there are some right-wing group and that they've been involved in some attacks.

00:50:24.760 But what I'm objecting to is the attempt to tie you to them when, as far as I can see,

00:50:31.020 the evidence is simply that you covered them.

00:50:33.700 And I read Reason Magazine all the time.

00:50:36.640 Roby Soev over there is really great in his reporting.

00:50:40.140 And he said he watched the video repeatedly of you, like, with this group.

00:50:47.220 This is the evidence of your, you know, support for this group.

00:50:51.500 And he says, this is quoting from him,

00:50:54.780 The message coming from left of center media was clear.

00:50:58.040 Patriot prayer planned this cider riot attack.

00:51:01.380 No was tactically involved.

00:51:02.840 And this video proves it.

00:51:04.300 The problem, of course, is that the video, which mostly depicts a small group of people standing around,

00:51:08.880 discusses which side of the street they should walk on, when and if they approach Antifa,

00:51:13.320 and conversing with the undercover reporter proves nothing of the kind.

00:51:18.720 He says, I have watched this thing from start to finish five times,

00:51:22.940 and it does not even establish that the group of right-wing agitators planned an attack,

00:51:26.780 let alone that no was aware of such a plot.

00:51:29.580 Indeed, the Portland Mercury article that receives such rave reviews from the Daily Beast, Vice,

00:51:33.960 Media Matters, and others makes little effort to explain what was so damning about the video.

00:51:40.140 Like, what?

00:51:41.060 So on this, they try to diminish you.

00:51:44.300 They try to discredit you.

00:51:45.920 And why?

00:51:46.600 Because you've had the guts to get in there and report on this group in a way they find objectionable.

00:51:53.620 I just, even when you're the subject of violence, they mock you.

00:51:59.240 It's wrong.

00:52:01.240 Thank you for giving me the opportunity to explain this particular smear that has been used to try to discredit me.

00:52:07.940 And thanks for looking further into it, because most people don't.

00:52:10.600 They just see the headlines from Salon or BuzzFeed or Daily Beast or Rolling Stone,

00:52:16.980 and then they think that it's true.

00:52:20.440 And it's, you know, I, as a journalist who started off as a student journalist,

00:52:26.820 I made many mistakes on how to issue corrections before and all that.

00:52:30.640 That's part of what it means to be a journalist and a reporter.

00:52:35.820 It's just, it's so frustrating that because of these smear merchants who work in the press,

00:52:42.100 like, they define you around mistakes that you acknowledge and correct,

00:52:48.160 whereas what they do and their friends and allies,

00:52:51.840 they can essentially fail upwards.

00:52:54.380 Well, and I think to your credit, you're open in the book about how you've struggled

00:53:03.460 for most of your life, as you put it, with crippling chronic depression.

00:53:09.260 You're a human being.

00:53:10.780 You can be hurt.

00:53:11.800 You can have a brain hemorrhage when you get attacked.

00:53:14.800 You can find it humiliating, whether it's vegan, whatever the asshole said, or concrete.

00:53:21.760 You can be dealing with the difficulties of life, of being a center-right guy living in Portland,

00:53:28.640 of cancel culture, all of it, and still find the courage to go report on very controversial

00:53:35.540 groups in a way that is big and bold.

00:53:38.840 And I just feel like your humanity is ignored throughout.

00:53:43.220 It's ignored.

00:53:44.260 And even when you're at your most vulnerable, we all saw the videotape of you,

00:53:47.920 and it didn't even capture the whole attack.

00:53:49.580 Like, even then, they can only look at you as awful because you're on the wrong side.

00:53:57.040 Look, I admire your courage.

00:53:58.820 And one thing I definitely want to ask you about is what it feels like now to have written

00:54:04.500 the book and have seen them try to get boycotts going of your book.

00:54:08.000 And some bookstores, I guess, have either considered it or done it, but it's not stopping

00:54:13.480 the sale and the success of the book.

00:54:16.120 So how has that been for you?

00:54:17.820 Yeah, so a couple weeks before the book's release, the Antifa in Portland mobilized

00:54:23.900 outside one of the largest bookstores in Portland, Powell's Books.

00:54:29.060 It's one of the largest independent bookstores in the world.

00:54:31.980 And we're pressuring them to ban the book.

00:54:36.000 And immediately, the store buckled.

00:54:39.360 And they, well, they half-buckled.

00:54:41.060 They said that they will not stock unmasked on its shelves, but that it'd still be available

00:54:46.680 on the online catalog.

00:54:48.480 But that wasn't good enough.

00:54:49.880 Again, you can never appease these people.

00:54:51.840 So they protested for six more days, intimidated the customers that were going in, forced the

00:54:59.620 bookstore to shut down on two days.

00:55:01.480 And on one day, it was rioting outside the front where the fight broke out in the middle

00:55:05.040 of the street.

00:55:07.360 So I didn't write en masse to do like a commercial success.

00:55:13.520 My goal was to try to inform the public about what I see as a real threat to the Republic.

00:55:20.720 And to tell the stories of so many other people who have had to suffer in silence because of

00:55:28.520 the brutality and violence of this movement, that is, the victims are ignored.

00:55:35.440 They're not privileged like me, like in terms of getting invited on to interviews or have

00:55:40.740 a large platform on social media.

00:55:43.300 So I felt like I was fighting on behalf of a lot of people as well.

00:55:48.160 And the fact that it has been a commercial success has been like, it feels really surreal.

00:55:54.240 And in some way, I have so much humility because it's my first book.

00:55:57.900 And there's so many amazing writers who never get that type of recognition in terms of like

00:56:06.460 a bestseller on the list.

00:56:09.360 And I got it on my first one.

00:56:11.200 And so, and I don't take any of this for granted.

00:56:13.280 I'm really, I mean, by and large, I feel that the present and the new future in America

00:56:19.580 is bleak, but I'm also partially optimistic to see that there's this appetite within the

00:56:25.960 public to really want to learn more about not just Antifa, but also BLM and the threats

00:56:32.340 coming from the far left.

00:56:34.140 And I wish the legacy media did a better job of informing people about America's history

00:56:41.960 of dealing with left-wing terrorism.

00:56:44.100 I think everybody's really aware of the 20th century and contemporary far-right terrorist

00:56:51.700 groups, but like people aren't aware of really the Weather Underground or the Black Liberation

00:56:56.780 Army.

00:56:57.540 There's like a precedent of far-left extremists who have carried out bombings and shootings

00:57:03.080 and robberies and attacks on law enforcement, but their legacy has been rewritten and remade

00:57:11.960 into heroes now in the mainstream left.

00:57:15.140 You know, I'm thinking of people like Assata Shakur or even Angela Davis's open support for

00:57:21.940 really repressive totalitarian communist regimes she celebrated as a civil rights activist today.

00:57:29.820 Well, I mean, a couple of things I do want to point out to the audience.

00:57:32.100 You were one of the first people online during the January 6th Capitol Hill riot to say,

00:57:37.260 guys, this is not Antifa.

00:57:39.140 So people who think you're just this, you know, in the tank for Republicans to Trump defender,

00:57:45.440 you wouldn't have been saying that.

00:57:46.740 You would have been like infiltrated.

00:57:48.580 These Trump supporters would never.

00:57:50.220 You were like, I'm telling you, no, it's not.

00:57:53.140 Um, but to your second point about the weather underground and their influence in this group,

00:57:58.700 because it's well documented in your book that there is a healthy presence there or unhealthy

00:58:03.140 presence, uh, of influence.

00:58:06.140 Uh, Bill Ayers was, of course, it was his living room from which Barack Obama in part launched

00:58:13.340 his political campaign.

00:58:14.280 And he, that's, that's partially true.

00:58:16.140 He did have a cocktail party for a young Barack Obama before he decided to run for office.

00:58:20.620 And Bill Ayers, um, ran the weather underground.

00:58:24.000 He founded the weather ground and not for nothing, but people ask me all the time, like,

00:58:28.940 you know, what, what interview are you most proud of?

00:58:32.240 It's that one.

00:58:32.940 Go to YouTube, Google Megan Kelly, Bill Ayers, forgive my weird hair that day and enjoy that

00:58:40.060 interview because it's awesome.

00:58:42.060 If I do say so myself, he came into the lion's den, not knowing what the hell was about to

00:58:46.820 happen to him.

00:58:47.780 And I was fair, perfectly fair.

00:58:49.600 I didn't confront him with any gotchas other than quotes from his own writings, his own books.

00:58:55.360 At one point he tried to deny he said something.

00:58:57.560 I said, it's in your book and put the graphic on the screen.

00:59:00.680 It was great stuff.

00:59:02.700 And just the whole day was such a wild experience for me and my whole team.

00:59:07.780 It was like Bill Ayers in the Fox news newsroom.

00:59:10.760 We had to hide him in the basement.

00:59:12.320 So Hannity didn't try to steal him. 1.00

00:59:14.720 And, uh, listen, when you hear what he did and what he's very proud of with the weather

00:59:19.360 underground, you realize that his influence and that of his group continues.

00:59:23.440 It's disturbing stuff.

00:59:26.060 Andy, I hope you're feeling well.

00:59:27.940 I hope the success of the book has made you feel some joy in your life and that some of

00:59:32.700 these risks you've taken were worth it.

00:59:36.140 Megan, you've, you've gone through a lot and I just want to share a side anecdote.

00:59:40.500 When I was a student journalist and I applied for a journalism scholarship and I made it to

00:59:45.620 the interview process, uh, the professor had asked me, uh, which journalist today do you

00:59:52.240 look up to the most or find most inspiration from?

00:59:54.940 And I said, uh, Megyn Kelly, it's just, I've always admired how your bravery, um, and you're

01:00:02.240 just being a straight shooter.

01:00:04.340 And, um, despite everything that, um, you've gone through and all the smears that you've

01:00:10.580 been subjected to that you've continued.

01:00:12.220 And I'm really excited to see that you've been, um, that your hard work has been rewarded

01:00:18.720 with, um, the popularity of your, your work right now.

01:00:24.540 Oh, that's sweet, Andy.

01:00:26.520 Thank you so much.

01:00:27.580 I, I really appreciate it.

01:00:29.280 And thank you for taking the risk to keep us informed though.

01:00:31.940 I must tell you being at Portland and saying Megyn Kelly is your favorite journalist was not

01:00:36.440 a good move.

01:00:37.260 That was, that was probably your first mistake.

01:00:39.800 I didn't get the scholarship, but it's okay.

01:00:44.380 Ah, screw them.

01:00:46.300 You're better off without them.

01:00:47.660 They don't have New York times bestsellers.

01:00:49.460 Uh, all right.

01:00:50.180 All the best and stay on it.

01:00:51.420 Would you?

01:00:52.280 Thank you, Megan.

01:00:54.720 So we're going to get to Shelby Talcott in just one second, but first, let me tell you

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01:01:39.500 No one needs to see that.

01:01:40.520 Um, that's on there.

01:01:42.060 Um, having that done some old tapes of me as a young lawyer, learning how to argue,

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01:03:15.280 And now it's time to bring you a feature we have on this show called Asked and Answered,

01:03:20.760 where our listeners write in some sort of a question and we do our best to provide some

01:03:24.400 sort of an answer.

01:03:25.300 And our executive producer, Steve Krakauer, has got the question today.

01:03:29.160 Hey, Steve.

01:03:29.920 Hey, Megan.

01:03:30.520 A lot of questions coming in at questions at devilmaycaremedia.com.

01:03:35.540 This is kind of a fun one, a little different than we normally do.

01:03:38.220 This is from Mally Myers.

01:03:39.360 And she wants to know which Real Housewives franchise is your favorite and who is your 0.99

01:03:43.540 favorite housewife? 0.90

01:03:46.520 I don't know.

01:03:47.620 Gosh, I love Beverly Hills and I love New York.

01:03:50.660 I do love them both a lot.

01:03:53.240 I guess if I had to choose, I would choose Beverly Hills because the women are just so 1.00

01:03:58.060 made up all the time.

01:03:59.760 They're so decked out.

01:04:01.000 They've had so many things pulled and prodded and plumped.

01:04:04.320 It's fascinating just to watch from like an anthropological standpoint.

01:04:07.840 My kids are always like, that's the show with the boobs. 1.00

01:04:10.860 What's that show with the boobs? 1.00

01:04:12.820 The boobs are everywhere. 1.00

01:04:16.060 I guess if I had to spend time, like have a lunch with just one, like as a potential

01:04:22.080 actual friend, I would choose Kyle.

01:04:24.200 She seems like the most normal.

01:04:26.520 And, you know, in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. 0.90

01:04:29.880 So I guess I'd choose Kyle.

01:04:31.000 But I would say the one that I would, I'd never turn away from when she's on camera

01:04:36.420 is Rena.

01:04:38.180 She's just such a shit stirrer. 1.00

01:04:40.320 And she's funny.

01:04:41.920 I like listening to her talk about herself.

01:04:44.000 She's got that rocking body. 0.99

01:04:45.460 She talks about, she made me laugh out loud when she said she no longer will lie face down

01:04:49.080 in the massage table, given all the stuff she's put in her face.

01:04:52.200 And it's fun to hear women talk about their work so openly, you know, like it's self-deprecating 1.00

01:05:00.160 in a way.

01:05:00.820 And they live in a crazy town.

01:05:02.320 Crazy.

01:05:03.480 So I love seeing all the rich surroundings and trappings.

01:05:06.980 And as I said before, the show generally makes me feel like a good person, you know, by comparison.

01:05:12.860 So anyway, I confess I enjoy it.

01:05:15.160 I think they've brought us a lot of laughs over the years.

01:05:17.380 And I'd love to have a night out.

01:05:20.040 I mean, like I would never be a real housewife, but I would love to do a cameo and spend a

01:05:25.580 night or maybe go like on one of those trips with them to Italy or Vegas or the spa.

01:05:31.940 Definitely don't go with the real housewives of New York because they get so hammered. 1.00

01:05:35.620 It's out of control.

01:05:36.240 Somebody always gets hurt or arrested.

01:05:38.020 The Beverly Hills women can hold their liquor. 1.00

01:05:42.300 I think I've given you a pretty good pitch for the show.

01:05:44.560 If you're not already a fan, we've discovered through Clay Travis that it's like women's sports. 0.99

01:05:49.020 It's like sports for women. 1.00

01:05:50.700 We feel about the housewives the way the men feel about the sports.

01:05:53.400 And I know a lot of women love sports, too. 0.99

01:05:55.240 I don't know how many men love the housewives. 1.00

01:05:57.200 Maybe my gay men friends, but not so much my husband.

01:06:00.020 Like it's not his thing.

01:06:01.520 Anywho, long answer.

01:06:03.300 So I go with Rinna and Kyle.

01:06:05.400 And if you haven't tried it, give it a try.

01:06:08.240 Let me know what you think.

01:06:14.420 Shelby Talcott.

01:06:15.560 Great to have you here.

01:06:16.620 How are you?

01:06:17.620 Good.

01:06:17.820 How are you?

01:06:18.420 Thanks for having me.

01:06:19.740 My pleasure.

01:06:21.160 All right.

01:06:21.440 So you are the woman who fears nothing. 0.97

01:06:24.400 I have spent the past six months watching you go right into the heart of these riots.

01:06:29.700 And it's rare.

01:06:30.580 Let's be honest.

01:06:31.120 To see a young woman in the heart of these things.

01:06:33.940 And it's crazy to see it happening domestically.

01:06:36.620 Have you been fearful doing this?

01:06:38.960 I would say I haven't been.

01:06:40.040 There have definitely been times where I've been nervous or I've sort of realized that,

01:06:45.620 you know, the situation's escalating and I definitely know the dangers behind it.

01:06:50.520 Um, but as my parents would tell anyone, I have almost a disturbing tolerance for things like this.

01:06:59.020 Um, and, and so you kind of turn your emotions off when you're in situations like this as well,

01:07:05.840 because it's just, it's almost like a safety net.

01:07:08.940 You know, if you can't react off of your emotions, then you're more likely to make smart decisions

01:07:15.040 in these potentially volatile situations.

01:07:18.040 Mm hmm.

01:07:18.580 Reminds me of when I was first learning to be a reporter and I was still a practicing lawyer

01:07:24.040 and I was just shadowing one of the real reporters at, um, the Chicago NBC affiliate out there.

01:07:31.400 And, you know, you just shadow, you just, you're just like a little barnacle who watches

01:07:35.460 the reporter do her job.

01:07:37.780 And we approached a subway train.

01:07:40.320 It was the L out in Chicago.

01:07:41.720 The doors open and a bunch of police ran off of the subway train or the train car guns drawn

01:07:48.580 and I ran to the side to give them a path and then went to get on the train.

01:07:54.240 And the reporter was like, what are you doing?

01:07:55.980 I'm like, something's going on.

01:07:57.880 We got to like, let's get out of here.

01:07:59.360 She's like, you're a reporter.

01:08:01.600 We run toward the action, not away.

01:08:04.140 Like go follow the police.

01:08:06.540 Let's, let's see what the story is.

01:08:08.020 I'm like, oh, okay.

01:08:08.880 I got to totally adjust my instincts.

01:08:10.540 You seem to have come by it naturally because I see you out there with Richie McGinnis, who I

01:08:15.760 had the pleasure to meet with you.

01:08:17.020 You guys came to interview me.

01:08:18.580 Uh, and I don't, is he a mentor to you?

01:08:21.640 Is he showing you the ropes or are you learning them together?

01:08:24.540 So Richie's been in the game for a little bit longer than I have been, but we're sort

01:08:30.220 of, it's me, Richie and Jorge Ventura.

01:08:33.060 There's a third, third reporter who comes out on the ground with us.

01:08:36.140 And we've sort of throughout the past year become just like a team essentially.

01:08:40.680 Um, and we've traveled together a ton.

01:08:43.960 I mean, I, I think I spent more time with Richie last year than I did with my boyfriend.

01:08:49.680 Um, luckily they're best friends.

01:08:51.360 So that was totally fine.

01:08:52.600 But, but seriously, you know, like we, we traveled together and went through these experiences

01:09:00.260 together.

01:09:00.740 So we really are, you know, a team and, and it's crazy how close you get to, to people

01:09:06.960 when you have to go through these things together.

01:09:09.280 Well, and they, and they really have been life or death situations.

01:09:12.520 I mean, even potentially for you guys.

01:09:14.900 And the one that stood out to me as I watched your reporting was what happened in Kenosha.

01:09:20.260 It was after the Jacob Blake shooting.

01:09:22.260 This is the shooting in which Kyle Rittenhouse was involved.

01:09:25.140 The 17 year old, some describe him as a vigilante.

01:09:29.580 Um, he's been charged with multiple counts of murder.

01:09:32.360 He shot and killed two people.

01:09:34.920 The third was injured.

01:09:36.820 Um, but didn't die.

01:09:38.420 Right.

01:09:38.700 I think, um, and you guys were right in the middle of that whole thing.

01:09:46.120 I mean, can you just walk us through, just summarize that experience for you as a reporter

01:09:51.480 and, and whether you thought your own life was in danger.

01:09:54.500 That was probably the scariest moment that I had in 2020.

01:09:59.680 And it wasn't even scary in terms of, wow, there's someone shooting people.

01:10:06.360 I, I was like, I don't know.

01:10:08.700 So I've never been so scared before to, for somebody else, you know?

01:10:13.600 So what happened was, uh, Richie and I had sort of gotten separated and Richie, it turns

01:10:19.220 out, had been following this crew.

01:10:20.940 Um, and I was, I was on the phone with Richie and he, he very abruptly was like, you know,

01:10:27.340 I got to hang up and he hangs up on me.

01:10:29.440 And naturally I'm like, well, what the hell?

01:10:31.300 Why would you, you know what I mean?

01:10:32.180 I was like, well, pretty rude.

01:10:33.900 Um, not knowing what was going on and it, and all of a sudden I'm recording because I see

01:10:40.220 right across the street at the gas station, there's a, there's a crowd gathering and I'm

01:10:44.120 sort of walking towards this crowd and I hear gunshots and I don't even know if they're gunshots.

01:10:50.740 Like I didn't drop to the ground.

01:10:52.280 I didn't do anything.

01:10:53.180 Cause I'm from New York.

01:10:54.180 Like I am not a gun person.

01:10:57.160 I literally looked at the person next to me and I was like, was that, were that, were

01:11:00.980 just gunshots?

01:11:01.960 Like I had no idea.

01:11:03.780 Um, and then people start screaming and running away and my heart just dropped because my first

01:11:10.880 thought was, oh my God, I think Richie's over there.

01:11:14.420 And I start sprinting across the street towards where the guns, you know, the gunfire just,

01:11:20.440 just come from.

01:11:21.560 And as I'm sprinting towards the street, uh, Kyle runs past me and there's people chasing

01:11:27.080 him saying he's the shooter, get him.

01:11:29.920 And I, my sole focus in that moment was to like, make sure that Richie wasn't lying on

01:11:36.020 the ground.

01:11:36.660 Yeah.

01:11:37.100 That your team.

01:11:37.700 And so I run up.

01:11:39.120 Yeah.

01:11:39.680 And so I run up and I see someone lying on the ground and I'm like, oh my God, like, am

01:11:45.740 I going to have to tell his family?

01:11:47.740 Like I know his family.

01:11:49.020 Am I going to have to tell them what happened?

01:11:52.080 Am I going to, you know what I mean?

01:11:53.220 Like, am I going to see my friend, not even just my coworker lying on the ground here?

01:11:59.280 And luckily I saw him totally fine helping the person who had been shot.

01:12:05.960 Um, but I just remember for like those 30 seconds, I was, I don't think I've ever been

01:12:12.520 as nervous and it wasn't even for my own safety.

01:12:15.060 It was just, you know, the thought of having to see that and having that happen.

01:12:20.100 Of course.

01:12:20.740 So we did get lucky there.

01:12:23.080 Just, just take a step back.

01:12:24.980 I mean, now we know it's, it's so crazy to know.

01:12:28.380 And the reports were out there, but refused, you know, the media refused to cover them.

01:12:33.000 Jacob Blake was armed.

01:12:34.200 He was shot by police because he resisted arrest.

01:12:37.220 He, um, had a knife on him and he wasn't compliant.

01:12:41.120 And the, and the police had a reasonable fear for their own bodily safety.

01:12:45.380 It was a justified shooting and, um, he, he lived, but he was paralyzed and he since has

01:12:51.360 admitted that he had a weapon on him and that it was a dumb thing to do.

01:12:54.680 Yes.

01:12:55.660 Um, I it's, so that's, that's why we had protests in Kenosha, Wisconsin that resulted in several

01:13:02.920 deaths.

01:13:03.680 So this is what brought you there is the riots that ensued the, the shooting of Jacob Blake

01:13:08.620 and Kyle Rittenhouse was sort of this kid who saw the police standing down in city after city as

01:13:18.120 they were being ordered to in some of these democratic cities by their mayors.

01:13:21.400 Um, and he and a bunch of others decided they were going to sort of step in and he showed up

01:13:26.220 with a, with a, with an EMT kit.

01:13:28.320 He was ready to perform, you know, life-saving work as, as a medical aid if necessary, which

01:13:33.940 he didn't necessarily have the training for, and also with an AR 15 to protect others,

01:13:39.940 protect himself, what have you.

01:13:41.840 He wound up shooting three people, killing two of them.

01:13:45.580 And he's been charged.

01:13:47.160 His defense attorney says it's self-defense and that the tape seems to suggest it was

01:13:50.700 self-defense, but the jury will have their say.

01:13:52.560 He can't tell everything based on tape.

01:13:54.580 Anyway, you're in the middle of all of it.

01:13:57.140 And now when you look back at that Shelby, now, when you understand the facts as I've tried

01:14:01.140 to lay them out, what's your perspective on what happened in Kenosha in those weeks after

01:14:07.000 Jacob Blake?

01:14:08.180 I think it was totally preventable on multiple levels.

01:14:12.100 To be clear, a 17 year old should never be out at a, you know, volatile riot with a gun,

01:14:21.380 you know, like, like that alone should probably not have happened.

01:14:24.920 And I don't, I don't think that many people are arguing that it should have like, absolutely

01:14:29.680 not.

01:14:30.140 But also there's been this rush to decide what happened in situations like these before

01:14:38.840 we actually know all of the facts.

01:14:40.800 And, and Kenosha is just one example.

01:14:42.640 There's been others.

01:14:43.560 Um, but, but the BLM groups, the Antifa groups, they don't, they don't necessarily wait for the

01:14:50.600 facts.

01:14:51.040 They just see, okay, a black person has been shot by police.

01:14:56.580 Let's, you know what I mean?

01:14:57.740 Let's, let's get it started.

01:14:59.620 Uh, and so I think it could have been great, could have absolutely been prevented had people

01:15:04.900 just waited for the facts to come out.

01:15:08.640 But we've seen it time and time again.

01:15:10.800 And, and I think that I don't think that this will change.

01:15:14.180 No one's waiting for the facts to come out.

01:15:16.420 It's, it's a rush to judgment and this is what happens.

01:15:21.240 So how are you, how are you able to tell when you're out there covering these things, whether

01:15:25.400 you're dealing with Antifa or just BLM protesters who have turned into BLM rioters?

01:15:31.420 It's really hard to tell, to be fair.

01:15:34.240 And that's why I sort of try not to declare that a group is Antifa when I'm reporting necessarily,

01:15:42.020 unless they say it.

01:15:43.680 Um, because at this point, all of the protesters and rioters are generally wearing black.

01:15:48.740 They're all covering their faces because of COVID.

01:15:51.080 Um, and that used to be Antifa shtick, right?

01:15:56.160 They, they would be the ones wearing black.

01:15:58.460 They would be the ones covering their faces. 0.95

01:15:59.980 But now, you know, BLM is doing it too.

01:16:02.940 Uh, but generally the BLM groups will continue to chant BLM phrases and they do keep that sort

01:16:13.880 of motto throughout.

01:16:15.620 Whereas the Antifa groups I've found abandoned that, those BLM talking points and it turns

01:16:22.740 into just screw the police and destroying things with sort of no rhyme or reason.

01:16:29.260 There's no, there's no meaning necessarily behind it.

01:16:32.800 Not that, you know, the meaning gives you the right to destroy property, but.

01:16:36.680 What's your experience with Antifa been?

01:16:39.220 Do you, are they especially dangerous?

01:16:41.380 Are they just like the regular rioters for lack of a better term?

01:16:46.760 I think that they can definitely be more dangerous.

01:16:50.100 So Antifa and my experience, they are like watching you, you know, they learned our faces.

01:16:58.280 They learned where we were.

01:17:00.360 Um, they would follow us on Twitter and on social media to figure out where we were going.

01:17:05.660 And then they'd send out, they're organized, you know?

01:17:08.700 So they'd send out notifications to their other Antifa members and they'd be like, look

01:17:14.100 out for, you know, Shelby Talcott. 0.97

01:17:16.060 She's on the ground in Portland this week.

01:17:18.540 Uh, and then there's a targeted effort to prevent people from filming.

01:17:24.540 If you, if they catch you filming something that's bad, you know, they'll literally.

01:17:32.480 It's it, you know, you can, that's dangerous if they catch you filming.

01:17:36.580 And BLM is a little bit like that.

01:17:39.440 They definitely don't want people filming the negative stuff, but it's not as organized,

01:17:46.600 I would say, as the Antifa groups are.

01:17:50.400 And so have you had any of those encounters with Antifa trying to stop you from filming?

01:17:55.100 Or I know I've seen some where they want you to identify yourself.

01:17:59.200 They want to know what organization you're with and, you know, why you'd be putting them

01:18:04.520 on camera.

01:18:05.100 And to me, it seems like it's like a protester out there at a, at a, I don't know, an anti-Trump

01:18:10.540 rally trying to figure out whether you're CNN or Fox.

01:18:14.260 Mm-hmm.

01:18:15.140 Exactly.

01:18:16.300 There's definitely been situations where we've been confronted for filming.

01:18:21.420 There's been situations that have almost escalated.

01:18:23.840 There was a BLM pro related protest in New York city last year and Richie and I were there

01:18:30.340 and someone caught me filming like one of the fights and like a small crowd surrounded me

01:18:36.280 and wanted to take my phone and wanted me to delete the footage.

01:18:40.620 And I wouldn't.

01:18:42.640 Um, and we literally got like pushed out of the area because it became too dangerous.

01:18:48.240 And so you have reporters who will be like, okay, yeah, I'll delete the footage.

01:18:54.300 And I don't know, maybe that's the safer thing to do, but I've always felt like this

01:18:58.720 is my job.

01:18:59.420 I have a legal right to be filming you on public property.

01:19:03.580 Um, and I'm not going to be bullied into not doing my job as a reporter just because

01:19:11.900 you're doing something that you don't want people to see.

01:19:15.300 If you're doing something that people don't want you to see, maybe you shouldn't be doing

01:19:18.160 it.

01:19:19.060 You're the angry confrontations you've had to endure.

01:19:22.920 And by the way, how old are you?

01:19:24.300 I'm 28.

01:19:25.500 You're young.

01:19:26.860 The angry confrontations that you've had to endure, they go on and on.

01:19:32.660 So another one happened in June of this past year outside the White House and that had

01:19:39.260 video that went pretty viral.

01:19:41.560 Can you tell us what happened there?

01:19:43.420 Yeah.

01:19:43.580 So that, those are during the, when, you know, that White House, the White House protests

01:19:47.820 were really at their, at one of their highest points all year.

01:19:52.300 And there was a big crowd who had been pushed back away from the White House.

01:19:56.840 Um, there's police lined up and I was sort of standing on one of the barriers.

01:20:02.000 There's like a big block.

01:20:03.300 And I noticed that there was a group of people clad in black who had shields and they were

01:20:09.580 marching towards the front where the police were.

01:20:13.000 And so naturally I thought this is, this could get interesting.

01:20:16.940 This is where I want to be.

01:20:18.200 So I hopped down, I walked over and I started filming and all they were doing were, was standing

01:20:24.560 with their shields right in front of the police.

01:20:27.720 Um, and I said, no, there was one guy who was sort of trying to diffuse the situation.

01:20:39.700 I showed them my Twitter handle and the guy was like, yeah, she's, you know, she is, she's

01:20:45.880 a reporter, um, and they were relentless.

01:20:50.260 So these other, these other people, and they started shoving me, they started trying to

01:20:55.440 get me out of the area.

01:20:56.440 They started to grab my phone.

01:20:58.880 Um, one girl like literally grabbed my phone and was on the ground as other people were pushing 1.00

01:21:04.220 me, trying to grab it.

01:21:05.280 And one of my coworkers, I remember seeing him literally prying each of her fingers off

01:21:10.100 of my phone because my phone's my lifeline with these things.

01:21:13.240 And as I just kept getting shoved, I was eventually shoved into the police line and a police officer

01:21:20.360 grabbed my backpack and just yanked me through the police line.

01:21:24.960 So it was pretty scary, but I was lucky that I was also, um, handcuffed because I had breached

01:21:32.880 the police line, even though they had sort of forced me to breach it, but they walked me

01:21:38.620 to a different area and released me, uh, after that.

01:21:43.240 Were you, were you surprised by the way?

01:21:45.920 I mean, were you relieved that the police, that you were in sort of police custody?

01:21:48.980 I was relieved, but I also didn't necessarily think that the handcuffing was necessary, especially

01:21:58.220 because I felt like they were the ones who had pulled me through the police line.

01:22:02.820 And so they told me that it was standard.

01:22:05.880 Um, I mean, tensions were really high.

01:22:07.900 One of the police officers actually did say something that I thought was quite rude to

01:22:11.580 me.

01:22:11.740 He said, uh, well, it doesn't matter that you're a reporter, you're just going to give

01:22:17.020 us, you know, you're going to paint this in a bad light anyway, even though we saved, like

01:22:21.480 we saved you.

01:22:22.960 Um, which I thought was a little presumptuous, but also, you know, you've got to look at the

01:22:29.440 coverage that a lot of these situations get.

01:22:32.160 Um, so that's right.

01:22:33.440 Yeah.

01:22:33.880 Maybe that's reason was accurate. 0.98

01:22:36.080 Yeah.

01:22:37.140 So, I mean, after that incident, the, the founder and publisher of the daily caller, uh, Neil

01:22:43.040 Patel came out and said, you know, you're one of the best you've been on the ground getting

01:22:48.020 the truth, um, and not just trying to fit the facts into a preconceived narrative.

01:22:53.060 And, and then he said, the fact that Shelby would be assaulted for doing her job and telling

01:22:58.140 it straight should alarm anyone who cares about press freedom.

01:23:02.480 Do you feel like the industry, the media industry had your back in, in that incident or these

01:23:09.340 others in which you've been in danger?

01:23:12.540 Sort of, uh, I, I, I'm a little mixed on this.

01:23:15.840 So I definitely think that there have been people in the media who you wouldn't think would

01:23:21.320 come up and say, Hey, this is wrong.

01:23:23.020 And they have, and that's awesome.

01:23:24.740 We've had people from CNN, people from MSNBC, from Buzzfeed, um, from HuffPost come up and

01:23:31.720 been, and, you know, been like it, but they always caveat it with, it doesn't matter where

01:23:38.680 she works or it doesn't matter what side she's on, which is like, I don't know, you know,

01:23:46.100 it, I don't love that caveat, but there is something to be said.

01:23:51.200 For people speaking up, but then you also have people who sort of have laughed it off

01:23:55.820 and been like, well, she works for the daily caller.

01:23:58.400 Um, you know, she deserves it.

01:23:59.920 And, and that's disappointing too, because I'm sure if they were put in the same position,

01:24:04.180 they'd, they'd have some very different feelings about it.

01:24:07.580 My gosh.

01:24:08.620 Yeah.

01:24:09.100 I mean, we know she's with the devil, but she's still, she doesn't deserve to be heard.

01:24:13.660 I'm glad to hear they said something though.

01:24:15.600 I will say that wasn't your only dust up with police.

01:24:18.740 You were also arrested in Louisville, Kentucky.

01:24:20.980 You've had an interesting year, my friend.

01:24:23.540 Yes.

01:24:24.160 You had, you were arrested in Louisville, Kentucky while covering the riots there.

01:24:28.980 It's hard to keep track of the number of places where we've had the riots, isn't it?

01:24:32.500 Yeah.

01:24:32.900 And, and what happened there?

01:24:34.680 Cause you, you spent a night in jail.

01:24:36.360 I did.

01:24:37.160 I spent, uh, I think it was 16 hours in jail.

01:24:41.280 Um, and I'm not cut out for jail.

01:24:43.460 I will just put it out there.

01:24:45.400 That is not my thing.

01:24:47.000 I like, I'm pretty tough, but I, yeah, I was not happy, obviously.

01:24:52.740 What was so bad about jail?

01:24:54.420 Just so we know.

01:24:55.460 Yeah.

01:24:55.880 Yeah.

01:24:56.440 Well, I mean, the thing that really shocked me about jail was we were in there, I was in

01:25:03.380 there with, I think, 27 other girls in one small room and the toilet was, so there was 1.00

01:25:09.440 just a square room, like a block.

01:25:12.860 And at the front there were windows and that's where, um, the actual prisoners would walk by

01:25:19.420 and the guards could see you.

01:25:22.880 And right next to those windows was a toilet.

01:25:26.120 It was like a two in one toilet and, um, sink, but there was no door.

01:25:32.500 There was nothing blocking.

01:25:33.880 Like if you were going to the bathroom, people like prisoners walking past could literally

01:25:39.740 see you.

01:25:40.680 Oh boy.

01:25:41.820 Which I, which was, you know, these are all like 40 year old men who are walking by in

01:25:47.400 the orange jumpsuits.

01:25:48.540 Oh my God.

01:25:50.160 And this is a weird kind of off color question, but did they provide like sanitary products?

01:25:56.540 I'm just wondering if you were at that point in your life, it would be especially painful.

01:26:01.440 So there were a few girls in my cell who were in need of sanitary products and they were not 1.00

01:26:09.220 provided with any, um, also somebody accidentally dropped a sandwich in the toilet at the beginning

01:26:17.220 of the day and it remained in there.

01:26:20.720 So that wasn't fun.

01:26:23.860 It was just gross.

01:26:25.120 And the girls did come up with a sort of a sort of a way to, um, provide a little safety. 0.53

01:26:30.700 So we were given a blanket.

01:26:32.220 And so anytime someone would need to use the bathroom, like three or four girls would come 1.00

01:26:36.640 up with their blankets and, and put them up to sort of block this little toilet area

01:26:43.240 for whoever needed to use the bathroom.

01:26:44.880 Oh, I think that's sweet that you had that sort of bonding with your fellow jailbirds.

01:26:48.660 Yeah, it was, it was definitely a bonding experience.

01:26:51.700 And actually when I got out, I have two of their phone numbers now and we keep in touch

01:26:56.340 occasionally.

01:26:57.440 What were they in for?

01:26:58.580 Yeah, I never, so they were also in for the same things.

01:27:02.140 Like, uh, it was basically, I was charged with unlawful assembly, assembly and failure

01:27:08.380 to disperse.

01:27:09.560 And so most of the girls in there were charged with similar things or charged with curfew violations. 1.00

01:27:15.440 There were a few who definitely deserve to be in there.

01:27:18.340 One girl said she broke a police officer's hand with his baton.

01:27:22.280 Um, so a few of them, I was like, yeah, you know, but, but a lot of them were for these

01:27:28.940 smaller things that I was also arrested for.

01:27:31.740 And, uh, this, it just really opened my eyes to, you know, there is validity in saying that

01:27:39.580 the justice system needs some sort of reform.

01:27:42.220 And, uh, I think that both sides have this issue where when they believe in something,

01:27:50.860 let's take conservatives, um, are very pro police typically, but a lot of them in, in

01:27:57.260 being pro police decide that there is no fault that police officers can ever do.

01:28:03.600 Um, and just like, you know, liberals will say, well, there's no good that police officers

01:28:09.080 can ever do.

01:28:09.760 And it really is more of a nuanced issue.

01:28:12.100 And I think that we'd be able to get so much further in society if both sides were willing

01:28:17.560 to recognize that their views do have things that they can work on.

01:28:25.320 Um, it's just like when I played, when I played tennis, when I grew up playing sports, they'll

01:28:29.180 always tell you you're only as good as your weakest shot.

01:28:32.520 And so acknowledging that weakness will only help you get better.

01:28:37.200 Um, but, but there's sort of like a stigma right now, I think.

01:28:41.340 Well, the rhetoric is so sweeping.

01:28:43.000 The rhetoric is so sweeping that it makes the other person retreat.

01:28:46.640 Like I can't deal with somebody who's speaking in these terms, you know, that all police are

01:28:52.000 fascists or, you know, they're all brutal.

01:28:55.100 And it's like, yeah, so you're not an honest broker with whom I can have a real conversation

01:28:59.680 about police reform.

01:29:01.040 You know, that's why I like somebody like Coleman Hughes who deals in facts and, you know,

01:29:06.400 says, okay, let's look at what the actual data are.

01:29:09.680 And then let's also consider testimonials from young black men who have had nothing but negative 1.00

01:29:16.160 experiences with cops short of getting shot.

01:29:19.080 Right.

01:29:19.460 We got to look at the realities of what happens prior to a fatal shooting.

01:29:23.420 It's, it's not, it's not all well and good just because the number of shootings has gone

01:29:27.500 down.

01:29:28.040 And it is true that the media has inflated, you know, individual cases, though the representative

01:29:32.360 of police, you know, as a whole.

01:29:35.720 So, but anyway, when the rhetoric is so sweeping, you think, uh, and I'm out, you know?

01:29:42.940 And so to your point, like there, and I would say this too, if you've ever had a negative

01:29:46.640 encounter with a cop, you're a lot more open-minded to the thought that cops can be bad.

01:29:51.780 Yeah.

01:29:52.060 I mean, it's like, it's absurd to think that every single cop in America is good and should

01:29:59.760 be a police officer.

01:30:00.940 I mean, it's, it's the same as every job, right?

01:30:04.920 There are journalists who probably shouldn't be journalists.

01:30:07.600 There are pilots who probably, you know, shouldn't, shouldn't be pilots.

01:30:12.780 Um, but so to think that there's this one job where everyone is doing an amazing job is,

01:30:20.600 is wrong.

01:30:21.320 But on the flip side, to think there's this one job where everyone's doing a horrendous

01:30:25.440 job is also wrong.

01:30:26.700 And I say this with, you know, a lot of police officers in my family, a lot of, uh, you know,

01:30:32.620 my mom is a prosecutor, so she works with police a lot.

01:30:36.000 Um, but it is nuanced and, but, you know, the media doesn't want to sort of accept that

01:30:42.240 as a reality.

01:30:42.960 And I think we've done a good job at the caller reporting on all of those facts this past year.

01:30:49.360 The Daily Caller has been doing amazing, amazing work.

01:30:52.720 I mean, it started off as more a sort of a, an opinion.

01:30:57.280 I don't know.

01:30:58.140 Um, how do I want to put this?

01:31:00.540 It's sort of like more red meat was offered up on the site all the time and sort of clickbait.

01:31:05.940 And it has turned into a real and an important journalistic source.

01:31:11.140 I've really admired the reporting you guys have been doing, especially over this past six

01:31:15.500 to nine months when you've put your lives in danger.

01:31:18.920 Um, so, so what's next, do you think?

01:31:23.460 Having covered this, the summer of unrest, you know, been up front with Antifa and the

01:31:29.000 other rioters, do you think it's done?

01:31:32.000 Do you think it's over now that Trump's out?

01:31:34.660 I think it's going to slow down.

01:31:36.640 Um, but I'm not quite sure it's going to end because if you look, these groups really

01:31:43.600 don't like Joe Biden and Kamala Harris either, the BLM met with them beforehand and Joe Biden

01:31:51.660 sort of promised these things that he has yet to deliver on.

01:31:55.240 Um, Antifa wants to completely abolish all police and Joe Biden has already come out and

01:32:00.560 said he is not going to do that.

01:32:02.960 Uh, so these groups don't like this administration either.

01:32:06.560 So while it's probably going to slow down a little, I wouldn't be surprised to see it pick

01:32:12.460 up when it starts getting warmer.

01:32:14.080 And if the administration continues to sort of ignore these groups, it doesn't take much

01:32:20.760 of a spark to, to get that fire glowing again.

01:32:24.740 Did you come from a conservative family?

01:32:27.480 Kind of.

01:32:28.200 So growing up most, almost all of my family was pretty conservative.

01:32:32.520 Uh, when I, when I was probably 15 or 16, I would say that began to shift.

01:32:40.260 I have a, a very liberal sister.

01:32:42.400 I have a very liberal dad.

01:32:44.400 I have a very liberal brother.

01:32:46.700 Um, one of my other brothers is a little bit more liberal.

01:32:50.760 My third brother's pretty conservative.

01:32:52.840 My mom's pretty conservative.

01:32:54.280 So we're very divided politically.

01:32:56.900 So it makes for interesting Thanksgiving dinners.

01:33:00.540 I'm sure that's true.

01:33:01.960 And, but I think it's interesting that you went out to Iowa too, because I think spending

01:33:05.900 four years in the Midwest like that, I guess it could be helpful.

01:33:09.420 I mean, every university is a liberal bastion, but I would imagine Iowa, maybe less so.

01:33:16.500 Iowa city is, I would say pretty liberal.

01:33:18.700 I think a lot of my, a fair amount of my friends who went there more than you think are, are liberal.

01:33:25.980 Although I do know a lot of like the guys who played on the men's team who are from the Midwest are

01:33:31.700 pretty conservative.

01:33:32.940 Um, so it was a really big mix, but my dad is from the Midwest.

01:33:37.640 So I did sort of grow up going there a little bit.

01:33:41.160 Um, but it, it was definitely a shock coming from New York.

01:33:44.300 It's definitely different.

01:33:45.340 How do you think that's affected you?

01:33:47.280 Like living in Iowa, having lived in New York city and having come from a big family where

01:33:51.760 the politics are very diverse.

01:33:54.000 I think that it is one of the best things that could have happened to me.

01:33:58.660 Um, because it's forced me to be able to a listen and understand people's viewpoints,

01:34:07.080 even if I think they're completely wrong and B talk through it with them.

01:34:11.860 And I think that this is something that's been lacking because it's, you know, the country

01:34:16.160 is so polarized, but you can absolutely have conversations and be friends with people who

01:34:21.140 don't agree with you politically.

01:34:22.440 Like there's more to politics at the end of the day.

01:34:24.760 And I think it makes, it has made me a better, or I like to think it has made me a better reporter

01:34:30.160 by being able to have these conversations with people I don't necessarily agree with.

01:34:35.980 And at the end of the day, we listen to each other's opinions and that's it.

01:34:40.440 You know, it doesn't end in this huge argument where, you know, we're never talking to each

01:34:44.960 other again, but, but it sort of forces you to think outside of your own little box.

01:34:51.460 I think it's so helpful in life.

01:34:53.660 If you can find someone you love who's of the opposite political stripes, you know, it

01:34:59.720 just helps you remember that person's humanity and that we, we may argue over politics,

01:35:05.980 and culture and so on.

01:35:07.060 And a lot of these are very important fights, but we're at base.

01:35:11.620 We're still humans.

01:35:12.600 And for whatever reason, we've been placed on this earth at this same time together to

01:35:17.280 have this same decade of looking at the Statue of Liberty and the Rocky mountains and all

01:35:23.920 of it.

01:35:24.540 And, and this is the collection, you know, this 7 billion of us are here right now for

01:35:29.720 this time.

01:35:30.260 And it's so much more important than bullshit arguments over Joe Biden.

01:35:34.840 You know, we, we, we're going to have them, we'll have them, but humanity and the ability

01:35:38.620 to love somebody who thinks differently than, than you do is really the starting point, right?

01:35:45.280 That's like the core and most important starting point.

01:35:49.040 You seem like someone who lives that.

01:35:50.960 I try to, for sure.

01:35:53.380 I mean, I, I also don't really have a choice because if I, if I didn't act that way, I would

01:35:58.780 probably lose half of my family.

01:36:01.720 So, you know, forced into it.

01:36:04.260 But again, I think, I think more people should start doing that.

01:36:08.460 You know, it, I think it's important and, and having friendly disagreements with people.

01:36:14.520 I mean, you know, as a lawyer, it's only going to make you better because it makes your argument

01:36:19.000 stronger.

01:36:19.680 It makes it, you tend to, you need to argue, you need to learn the other side in order to

01:36:25.240 really argue your own side.

01:36:26.460 I think so.

01:36:27.740 Well, I, I'd be interested in hearing, we have, we have a fair amount of people who are,

01:36:31.360 um, on the left listening to this podcast center left, I'd say, at least according to

01:36:36.280 what I read in the, in the comments and online.

01:36:38.440 And I'd be interested to hear what they think of the daily caller these days, because it's definitely

01:36:41.760 a right leaning journalistic outfit, but it's very helpful.

01:36:45.740 And it's, it's fact-based in a way that I have found helpful.

01:36:49.580 And I, I'd love to know with somebody who, you know, I'm center right.

01:36:52.540 So it's appealing to me in other ways, but if you're not of that ilk, uh, maybe the listeners

01:36:57.820 will let us know in the comments section what they think.

01:36:59.680 But one thing we can all agree on is you're a star.

01:37:03.180 Richie is a star as well.

01:37:05.000 And, um, keep up the good work and the good fight.

01:37:08.760 Thank you.

01:37:11.760 Today's episode is brought to you in part by legacy box, trust legacy box to digitally

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01:37:25.900 Ben Shapiro's coming back.

01:37:27.900 He was our second guest ever, and there's a lot to cover with him.

01:37:32.900 I love the way his mind works.

01:37:34.480 It's fun just to like watch it and soak it in.

01:37:37.040 And he's clever and he's funny.

01:37:39.160 Doesn't get enough credit for being funny.

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01:37:42.420 Tulsi Gabbard is on Friday by popular demand.

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01:37:52.300 por favor.

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01:37:56.480 Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show.

01:37:58.680 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

01:38:03.200 The Megan Kelly show is a Devil May Care media production in collaboration with Red Seat Ventures. 0.56

01:38:10.860 Oh, yeah.

01:38:11.520 I love you.

01:38:12.140 I love you.

01:38:12.900 I love you.

01:38:13.240 I do love you.

01:38:17.400 I love you.

01:38:25.700 I love you.

01:38:26.420 I love you.

01:38:28.420 I love you.

01:38:29.040 I love youрез.

01:38:29.500 I love you.

01:38:29.600 I love you.

01:38:30.440 I love you.

01:38:31.200 I love you.

01:38:32.500 I love you.

01:38:33.040 I love you.

01:38:33.200 I love you.

01:38:34.380 Oh, yeah.

01:38:34.800 I love you.

01:38:35.340 I love you.

01:38:35.940 I love you.

01:38:37.040 I love you.

01:38:38.240 I love you.

The Megyn Kelly Show - February 22, 2021

Antifa's Violent Rise and Next Move, with Andy Ngo and Shelby Talcott ｜ Ep. 67

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