The Megyn Kelly Show - Balenciaga's Gross Campaign, and Feminism's False Promise, with Louise Perry and Carrie Prejean Boller ｜ Ep. 443

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00:00:30.940 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:33.140 Your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:42.340 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:45.640 The sexual revolution of the 1960s promised liberation and freedom and a better life for women.

00:00:51.800 Decades later, a brave feminist is asking the hard question, 1.00

00:00:55.560 Was it true?

00:00:57.140 Did the sexual revolution help or hurt women to this day? 1.00

00:01:01.500 She'll join us just a bit later in the show, but we begin with this.

00:01:05.220 Kim Kardashian and one of the world's top fashion brands facing new backlash today over an ad campaign

00:01:12.120 that features young children on beds holding teddy bears wearing S&M-style harnesses, chokers, and thong underwear.

00:01:23.080 The outrage from parents nationwide is only continuing to grow.

00:01:28.020 And one mom, who we recently spoke to on this show, is refusing to allow this controversy to be swept under the rug and for really good reason.

00:01:38.440 Joining me now, the former Miss California 2009, Carrie Prejean Bowler.

00:01:43.120 Carrie, thanks for coming back on the show. 0.67

00:01:44.560 This is absolutely disgusting.

00:01:47.100 Good for you for standing up.

00:01:48.520 For people like me, who hadn't, this did not cross my radar until a couple of days ago.

00:01:54.800 Can you outline what Balenciaga, this very high-end fashion brand, did?

00:02:00.060 What did they do that got people so upset?

00:02:02.000 Oh, my gosh.

00:02:04.140 I saw this before Thanksgiving.

00:02:05.800 By the way, thank you so much, Megan, for having me on.

00:02:08.300 I saw this posted on Instagram before Thanksgiving, and I thought this had to have been a mistake.

00:02:15.720 I mean, the fact that Balenciaga, this huge fashion brand, and I used to model, so I remember photo shoots and things like that.

00:02:23.860 Nothing like this would get past a huge company like Balenciaga and for them to say, oh, we didn't know about it.

00:02:31.180 No, they knew exactly what it was.

00:02:34.000 It's pedophilia.

00:02:35.500 It's grooming of our children.

00:02:37.940 And I want to know, where is the outrage by the left?

00:02:40.880 All the people who posted the Black Square during Black Lives Matter and the George Floyd protests, they were quick to post and denounce the, you know, Black Lives Matter, all that.

00:02:50.900 But now, all of a sudden, celebrities and elitists are completely silent on this.

00:02:55.420 So I am calling to cancel Balenciaga.

00:02:58.320 We want to see them completely wiped out. 0.98

00:03:01.240 What they did was was disgusting, despicable. 0.99

00:03:04.740 And every person, man, woman, parent, everyone should be outraged about this.

00:03:10.180 So they have posted these ads.

00:03:13.700 They they posted them and now they've been forced to take them down.

00:03:16.960 But the first, as I can see, it is a little girl with red hair standing there holding a teddy bear described as follows by.

00:03:26.200 I'm I'm reading off of I think it's somebody's substack.

00:03:29.980 I'm trying to find the name of the person, but she did a good write up of apologies to her for not having the name.

00:03:34.940 This is how it's described.

00:03:36.060 A young girl holding a toy wearing fishnets, restraints and a padlock with bruised purple and blue eyes.

00:03:42.900 Then there's a picture of a girl on a sofa surrounded by empty wine glasses.

00:03:47.880 That's a separate one.

00:03:49.880 This is there's this one as if the girl's been partying all night. 1.00

00:03:53.780 These girls, they look about four, four or five. 1.00

00:03:57.440 You know, you have children.

00:03:59.280 I have children, including a daughter.

00:04:01.400 You can see that there's a leash.

00:04:04.200 Why is there a dog leash?

00:04:05.720 Why is there a fork, a knife and a spoon?

00:04:08.260 Why is there, like you said, alcohol?

00:04:10.180 Well, this is absolutely we can all agree.

00:04:13.300 Even prisoners agree that child predators and pedophiles are the lowest of the low.

00:04:19.360 But yet we are completely silent about this.

00:04:23.400 And I'm really proud of my conservative community.

00:04:27.100 They are.

00:04:27.340 Yes, because you will.

00:04:28.520 And I'll get to what you've been doing and good on you because it's working.

00:04:31.300 But the thing is, this is what they're doing is they're sexualizing little children and in the context of BDSM of, you know, what exactly does that stand for?

00:04:42.600 Bondage, domination, sexual, whatever.

00:04:44.740 But it's it's basically rough dominatrix, submissive type sex relations, which are inappropriate for children to be featured in in any way, shape or form.

00:04:55.860 And really young children.

00:04:57.780 I mean, I honestly, these girls look about four years old to me. 1.00

00:05:00.380 Uh, it's absolutely disgusting. 0.94

00:05:02.400 The parents, I have to say.

00:05:05.640 Are part of the problem because one was quoted in the Daily Mail as saying, oh, they flew us to Paris.

00:05:11.480 We were there the entire day.

00:05:13.160 You know what?

00:05:14.020 These have been taking been they've been taken out of context.

00:05:16.600 Really?

00:05:17.440 Somebody puts a bondage teddy bear in my four year old's picture while she's around empty cocktail glasses and grownups in a sexualized set. 1.00

00:05:28.520 And we are running for the hills out of that photo shoot.

00:05:31.480 And how about the court case?

00:05:32.840 I don't know if you saw the court case that was photographed in a separate ad campaign.

00:05:37.360 Tell them about that.

00:05:38.680 So they had a court case.

00:05:40.280 I don't remember exactly the case, but basically it had said that kiddie porn is OK. 0.77

00:05:45.320 So what they were saying is they were so arrogant in this photo shoot.

00:05:48.320 They were saying what we're doing.

00:05:49.920 There it is right there.

00:05:50.600 What we're doing is completely OK by slamming that court case on the bottom of the there it is right there. 0.98

00:05:57.780 So they're covering their ass by saying, hey, it's legal. 0.95

00:06:03.900 What we're doing is legal. 1.00

00:06:05.440 That's how arrogant these people are.

00:06:07.420 I want to see them canceled. 0.98

00:06:08.520 I want to see them completely eliminated from the public square.

00:06:12.580 There's a long line of Supreme Court jurisprudence on on the subject of child sexual abuse photos.

00:06:18.200 And that's what these are.

00:06:19.040 That's really what these are. 0.95

00:06:20.380 It's child pornography. 0.72

00:06:22.560 That doesn't cover it.

00:06:23.720 That almost sounds I don't know, like it doesn't sound bad enough.

00:06:26.760 This is child sexual abuse photos. 0.97

00:06:28.420 That's that's what child pornography is. 0.85

00:06:30.140 And this is adjacent at a minimum to that.

00:06:32.400 This will titillate pedophiles who get off. 0.58

00:06:36.560 I'm thinking about children in a sexualized way. 0.93

00:06:39.220 This these photos will hurt children.

00:06:41.840 They will potentially lead to the titillation of the worst of the worst amongst us.

00:06:47.640 And there's zero reason for this.

00:06:50.040 There's plenty of adult women who would be happy to be featured in a Balenciaga campaign, including the BDSM imagery. 1.00

00:06:56.720 You don't put a four year old in front of a camera like this.

00:06:59.540 So there's a reason why it's been outlawed explicit photos of children.

00:07:04.900 And what happened in the Supreme Court jurisprudence was originally the Supreme Court said you can't outlaw ever like even discussions about child sexual abuse photos.

00:07:14.880 There's certain things that the law cannot ban because of the First Amendment.

00:07:18.960 And then Congress tried to pass a law saying, OK, OK, I guess we failed to do it.

00:07:24.140 But now we're going to try to do it properly.

00:07:25.920 And that went back up to the Supreme Court.

00:07:27.360 So there's been a long line of legal fighting over what how far can these pedophiles go and their discussions.

00:07:33.240 And this and one of these cases gets featured by Balenciaga in its ad campaign on the heels of the little girls with the BDSM stuff.

00:07:42.560 You can't even make this up.

00:07:43.700 I mean, when I was on your show a couple of weeks ago, what were we talking about?

00:07:47.300 We were talking about, you know, the drag shows, the drag shows going on in our kids' schools.

00:07:52.600 Why are we not surprised?

00:07:54.460 Why are we not surprised that now we're hearing, oh, minor attracted persons?

00:07:58.820 That's OK.

00:07:59.860 No, it's not OK.

00:08:01.380 OK, this is what it leads to.

00:08:03.000 When people don't stand up and fight back against this, we are seeing now the most despicable act, sexual, sexualizing our kids is now OK. 0.97

00:08:12.540 What crazy world, sick, demonic world are we living in?

00:08:17.640 And they also some several photographs in their campaign include a copy of this book, Fire from the Sun, which is a collection of portraits of naked toddlers with with sinister overtones. 0.78

00:08:32.160 And some of the children look castrated in the photo.

00:08:34.940 I mean, it's deeply disturbing.

00:08:37.600 And so this is not an accident.

00:08:39.740 This is a pattern by Balenciaga.

00:08:42.380 It is a pattern, undeniable pattern.

00:08:44.760 And now now they want to say, oh, OK, we're horrified.

00:08:49.560 Now, this was very wrong.

00:08:51.200 And we're going to launch an investigation.

00:08:52.720 We're going to scrub our social media.

00:08:54.240 And you and I both know this doesn't get passed because initially they were they're pointing at the set designer on that one.

00:09:00.800 That one photograph that featured the handbag over the child pornography decision.

00:09:04.460 They're suing now.

00:09:05.760 Balenciaga suing the set designer on that shoot.

00:09:09.140 They're not suing the ones who did the little girls.

00:09:11.160 No, because that's an admission by them.

00:09:13.180 They were fully aware of that one.

00:09:14.620 They're claiming, oh, well, we didn't realize those court documents were behind that bag.

00:09:17.660 But the point is, Balenciaga is up to it, up to its neck.

00:09:20.960 This doesn't happen without the blessing of the top bosses.

00:09:23.320 You've been in the modeling industry.

00:09:25.440 Executives from Balenciaga would have poured over each and every shot.

00:09:28.700 So this is not good enough.

00:09:30.400 Oh, we're going to look into it.

00:09:31.820 We're going to lift the pictures.

00:09:33.560 It's not good enough for them.

00:09:34.640 It's not good enough for Kim Kardashian, who refuses to disassociate with the brand. 0.91

00:09:37.860 Even though she's a billionaire, she's a disgusting, shameful billionaire because the money is worth more than her morals and the protection of these children to her. 1.00

00:09:46.840 You're exactly right. 0.86

00:09:48.020 And why did it take Kim Kardashian six days to come out with a statement?

00:09:51.940 Right.

00:09:52.420 It wasn't until Candace Owens slammed her three times, three times for her to come out with some lame statement. 1.00

00:10:01.520 And you know what, Candace Owens, you are right.

00:10:03.880 Kim Kardashian is a total sellout. 0.63

00:10:05.960 She's soulless. 1.00

00:10:06.760 All she cares about is her money exploiting her kids. 1.00

00:10:09.880 And you know what? 1.00

00:10:10.840 She's an absolute disgrace. 1.00

00:10:12.320 And so her lame apology. 0.99

00:10:14.720 No, you're not sorry, Kim.

00:10:16.540 You're not sorry.

00:10:17.540 You're sorry that you got caught.

00:10:19.220 And now you want to continue your, you know, I'm going to reevaluate.

00:10:23.240 No, you're not going to reevaluate.

00:10:24.480 You're going to reevaluate how much money you're going to lose.

00:10:26.880 Okay.

00:10:27.100 You hope that this will go away.

00:10:29.100 Thanksgiving would come and go.

00:10:30.680 No, it's not going away.

00:10:31.780 We're doubling down.

00:10:33.300 Conservatives are doubling down.

00:10:35.820 And can I tell you, it's not even, I don't believe it is the money for her.

00:10:39.300 It's her vanity.

00:10:40.260 It's her need to see herself in the Balenciaga dresses looking high fashion because she's

00:10:47.320 jealous of the one sister who really is a high fashion model.

00:10:50.340 And she's been a wannabe on this front for the past couple of years running around. 0.99

00:10:54.080 Here she is featured in Balenciaga where at the Met Gala a couple of years ago.

00:10:57.220 This too is a misogynistic outfit with her face entirely covered because there's somebody 1.00

00:11:01.700 sick at Balenciaga working on the set design and the imagery and the fashion choices because

00:11:07.600 covering a woman like this is disturbing and dark and Kim shouldn't have done it and Balenciaga 1.00

00:11:13.060 shouldn't have done it.

00:11:13.760 But I think she can't let go of her own imagery as this high fashion model.

00:11:18.780 She it's her vanity. 1.00

00:11:20.000 That's making her slow to say goodbye.

00:11:21.920 It's not the money.

00:11:23.480 No, you're exactly right.

00:11:24.900 She is so into herself and she worships herself that she cannot let go of.

00:11:30.960 You're right.

00:11:31.480 Being dripped in Balenciaga.

00:11:33.180 I mean, you look at their stuff. 0.64

00:11:34.480 I went the other day to Nordstrom and I thought, ew, this stuff is absolutely disgusting.

00:11:38.840 It's not even beautiful things.

00:11:40.700 It's it's it's poorly made, overpriced shoes and handbags.

00:11:45.960 They're not even they're not even beautiful things.

00:11:47.960 So I'm just thinking, you know, Kim, wake up, start speaking out.

00:11:52.420 You know, I know you want to be a lawyer and you want to stand up for things and speak

00:11:55.900 out against things that you're passionate about.

00:11:57.600 Why don't you stand up against the sexualization of our kids? 0.88

00:11:59.980 You had every every opportunity to come out and say, I will never wear Balenciaga again.

00:12:05.460 And you didn't do that, Kim.

00:12:07.180 Yep.

00:12:07.680 And by the way, it's not just her.

00:12:09.320 Nicole Kidman is being featured right now in an ad campaign by them.

00:12:12.620 She has said nothing about this.

00:12:15.480 Bella Hadid, isn't she the one who's constantly lecturing us about Israel and Palestine?

00:12:19.660 And she left Twitter because of Elon Musk.

00:12:22.300 Now, this hasn't said, oh, no.

00:12:24.520 OK, this isn't this isn't apparently a huge problem for her because I don't see her lengthy

00:12:29.120 statement condemning all of this.

00:12:30.680 And by the way, here's here's a twist for you.

00:12:33.620 Balenciaga, too, left Twitter because of Elon Musk.

00:12:37.640 That was that was too much for them in their high high ground moral principles because they

00:12:42.860 were too busy exploiting four year olds for cash on the couch.

00:12:48.040 Do you really believe, Megan, that they thought that they could get away with this?

00:12:51.540 Yes, I do. 0.99

00:12:54.120 They're so arrogant. 0.99

00:12:55.740 Mm hmm. 0.98

00:12:56.500 And too many have been too silent.

00:12:57.940 You know, the left has been lecturing us on how like it's our don't be so uptight, whatever.

00:13:02.720 You know, like you can't you have to use somebody's pronouns or you're in big trouble with this

00:13:07.060 crowd. 0.96

00:13:07.480 But you can sexualize a four year old girl repeatedly and celebrate child pornography 0.95

00:13:11.920 rulings that loosen the restraints. 0.94

00:13:14.860 And that's no problem.

00:13:15.920 That's art.

00:13:16.520 You see.

00:13:17.560 Yeah, exactly.

00:13:18.500 And I don't know if you every day it gets worse and worse and worse.

00:13:21.260 Some the stylist, her name is like Lola. 1.00

00:13:24.180 I don't know if you heard about her.

00:13:25.500 Yes, I have that here. 0.84

00:13:26.980 If you look at her Instagram, it is it is satanic.

00:13:32.000 I mean, this goes again, this goes really, really deep. 0.99

00:13:35.540 I mean, you're talking about blood, you know, bloody babies and Satan worshipers.

00:13:40.460 I mean, this this is really dark. 0.81

00:13:43.520 And this is just the beginning.

00:13:45.100 Every day it gets worse.

00:13:46.100 So this woman I'm trying to find you're saying last page in my ear, Debbie Murphy, but I

00:13:51.980 don't know.

00:13:52.820 It's not coming together.

00:13:53.620 Last page of what?

00:13:54.440 The lengthy packet that I have.

00:13:55.840 I'm looking at her pictures.

00:13:57.300 OK, here she is.

00:13:58.380 Lola Volkova.

00:14:00.960 She's she was she's not the Balenciaga stylist right now.

00:14:04.220 Apparently, she left the brand in 2017, but they've had many past controversial ad campaigns.

00:14:11.740 And this woman's page features, I mean, very disturbing things like mutilation, satanic

00:14:16.880 themes, violence, you know, guts coming out of people's bodies, what appears to be a little

00:14:21.880 girl tied up with her mouth covered, a little baby holding up a skull.

00:14:26.940 So they have a history of being attracted to this kind of designer.

00:14:30.540 And so far, even though Balenciaga says, OK, we'll take we'll take the responsibility

00:14:35.680 for this latest ad campaign.

00:14:37.260 They're not saying who the set designer was.

00:14:39.980 They're not specifically saying that here's the person who did the set design on this particular

00:14:44.180 and how exactly this got approved and who looked at it.

00:14:48.180 And here's the real question.

00:14:49.480 Who's getting fired?

00:14:50.680 Who is getting fired?

00:14:52.640 No one.

00:14:53.780 No one.

00:14:54.660 They're hoping that this goes away.

00:14:56.340 The next big thing comes out in the news and all of a sudden it's lost and it's gone.

00:15:02.100 That's what they're hoping for.

00:15:03.800 So you decided after having seen this to to do something about it.

00:15:08.820 I mean, like it's not even it's great.

00:15:10.820 And I love that Candace spoke out about it.

00:15:12.780 But so you don't have like the big microphone exactly.

00:15:16.440 So you decided to make a difference at the local level, same as you did with your school

00:15:20.980 board when they wanted to promote some drag queen show for children.

00:15:24.900 And you made a difference locally.

00:15:27.420 This is an example for everyone who feels frustrated by this stuff, but feels disempowered to do

00:15:32.000 anything about us about it.

00:15:33.220 Tell us what you did.

00:15:34.980 Yeah.

00:15:35.240 So I went down to Nordstrom.

00:15:37.400 I have a Nordstrom card.

00:15:38.780 I love Nordstrom.

00:15:39.460 I shop at Nordstrom.

00:15:40.460 OK, I went down there on Black Friday with my daughter and a couple of friends.

00:15:43.960 And I could not believe my eyes when I saw Balenciaga front and center.

00:15:51.020 I'm talking the best real estate in Nordstrom front and center right there for everybody

00:15:57.080 to see.

00:15:57.780 There was thousands of people there and I could not believe it. 0.84

00:16:01.960 And I thought to myself, Nordstrom is aligning with pedophiles and the sexualization of our 0.92

00:16:08.880 kids. 0.92

00:16:10.020 And I just I had to get out my phone.

00:16:11.880 It wasn't even a planned thing, Megan.

00:16:13.400 I got out my phone and I just took a video of it and I posted it.

00:16:16.720 And I said, shame on you, Nordstrom.

00:16:18.840 Why are you showcasing front and center Balenciaga?

00:16:21.900 The biggest shopping day of the year.

00:16:23.820 Now, if Balenciaga came out against an LGBT, you know, did something against the LGBT.

00:16:29.380 Oh, they'd be pulled immediately.

00:16:30.960 Oh, that's so true.

00:16:32.420 You know, and so I just am so tired of this double standard.

00:16:35.280 Look at Ivanka Trump. 0.99

00:16:36.160 She was completely eliminated from Nordstrom.

00:16:39.800 Yeah, right.

00:16:40.320 Exactly.

00:16:40.620 Because her father was president.

00:16:41.940 She didn't do anything.

00:16:42.680 Exactly.

00:16:43.300 She didn't do anything wrong.

00:16:44.340 So I'm just thinking to myself, I cannot believe this.

00:16:47.260 So I went right up to the store manager and I said, this is despicable.

00:16:51.440 I don't know if you've seen the Balenciaga.

00:16:54.240 I don't know.

00:16:55.940 I don't know who you are, but for you to have this Balenciaga front and center, I said,

00:17:01.680 I will be exposing you and I will let all of my people know on my social media that Nordstrom

00:17:07.600 supports the sexualization of our kids and pedophilia, the lowest of the low.

00:17:13.760 That's a universal rule. 0.84

00:17:15.880 Stay away from our kids.

00:17:18.020 And so he heard me out and he said, I'm going to talk to our people.

00:17:23.820 And sure enough, it was removed that night.

00:17:27.060 Good.

00:17:27.440 That's amazing.

00:17:28.720 I will say Nordstrom still carries Balenciaga.

00:17:32.240 So I met with the store manager.

00:17:34.280 I urged all my followers to email the store manager.

00:17:37.920 I met her the following day.

00:17:39.340 I went back and I met with her and I said, thank you for removing it from front and center.

00:17:43.340 However, it's not good enough.

00:17:44.800 You have not removed it from the store.

00:17:47.080 And she, of course, passed the ball.

00:17:48.560 Oh, you need to email corporate.

00:17:49.880 But I've emailed, you know, I've sent all the emails to corporate.

00:17:52.460 That's their decision.

00:17:53.380 And I said, well, I will not be shopping at this store until Balenciaga is removed.

00:17:58.200 And I know a lot of people will follow suit.

00:18:00.740 That's so I mean, we can just make a difference.

00:18:04.420 Yeah, we can make a difference.

00:18:05.600 Megan, that's right.

00:18:06.380 Because, you know, who who buys Balenciaga women, women, a lot of whom have cash in their 1.00

00:18:11.860 pockets and they can spend it anywhere there.

00:18:14.900 These brands are a dime a dozen.

00:18:16.580 You don't need Balenciaga.

00:18:17.560 I don't have one piece of Balenciaga in my wardrobe and I'm doing just fine.

00:18:21.620 You don't need it.

00:18:22.540 You can spend your money elsewhere.

00:18:23.900 May I suggest donating it to Child Help, an organization that actually helps prevent the

00:18:28.240 abuse and treat abused children, as opposed to Balenciaga, which likes to celebrate it.

00:18:33.980 I mean, that's how this looks like they're celebrating because let's let's be honest.

00:18:37.900 There was a campaign not long ago where they had women walking down the runways looking one 1.00

00:18:46.100 of there was one with a model who'd been looked like she'd been beaten up, who had like a 1.00

00:18:49.800 bloody lip and a bruised eye.

00:18:52.100 There was one where they had just like last year.

00:18:54.260 Here's here's one.

00:18:54.920 She's carrying a little teddy bear child imagery, again, sort of beaten up as handbags.

00:19:00.160 They were they've been getting close to the line for quite some time now because apparently

00:19:04.560 they think it's fun to take children's things and show adults playing with them in a way

00:19:09.700 that's getting more and more sexual.

00:19:11.700 And so this was just the graduation of the earlier campaigns.

00:19:15.360 Right.

00:19:15.480 This is a long line in there.

00:19:18.720 What are they holding their teddy bears?

00:19:20.740 They're holding teddy bears that are that are beaten up.

00:19:23.720 And I don't know.

00:19:25.520 It's why.

00:19:26.980 Why would you feature a grown up in a dark, dreary, disgusting, dangerous way?

00:19:32.340 What is that?

00:19:33.800 Holding a child's toy, like playing with a Barbie.

00:19:37.760 I don't know who would buy this. 0.99

00:19:38.980 Look at this disgusting person. 1.00

00:19:40.440 Looks like Satan. 1.00

00:19:41.480 I'm sorry.

00:19:42.180 That is Satan.

00:19:43.520 Who would buy that?

00:19:44.600 Who thought this was an appropriate model?

00:19:48.660 That is not beauty.

00:19:51.280 That is not fashion.

00:19:52.380 I'm sorry.

00:19:53.540 No, it's not.

00:19:55.000 So Kim Kardashian, just to round back to her.

00:19:57.780 Here's the report on her.

00:19:58.760 She was introduced to the current creative director, with whom the responsibility does ultimately lie, in my view, Dema Vasalia, by her ex Kanye West, along with the couple's daughters, who also like to sport this brand.

00:20:14.940 And they were recently spotted, the children carrying four figure bags from Balenciaga.

00:20:23.860 All right.

00:20:24.160 So you've got children, Kim Kardashian's children, wearing thousand dollar bags from Balenciaga.

00:20:30.160 From Balenciaga.

00:20:31.500 And now Kim Kardashian comes out.

00:20:33.020 First, she comes out with a statement on Sunday saying, well, I've been quiet for the past few days, not because I haven't been shocked and outraged by the campaigns, but I wanted the opportunity to speak to their team to understand for myself how this could have happened. 0.99

00:20:43.540 Who gives a shit how it happened? 0.98

00:20:45.200 Just put out a statement. 0.99

00:20:46.420 It's deeply wrong, and I will speak with them, but this is effed up.

00:20:50.200 It's really not that hard, right?

00:20:52.520 She's too busy trying to get criminals out of jail. 1.00

00:20:54.640 That's what that's her new business. 0.99

00:20:56.520 So she wasn't able to do it.

00:20:58.580 She says, I've been shaken.

00:21:00.140 But now I believe they understand the seriousness of the issue. 1.00

00:21:02.560 Then she got into the hands of some PR person who was like, that was a dumb ass statement. 0.99

00:21:07.780 And she tries to beef it up by adding the words. 1.00

00:21:10.340 I bet I'm disgusted, not just outraged.

00:21:12.780 I'm disgusted.

00:21:13.420 And the safety of children must be held in the highest regard and should have no place in our society.

00:21:18.940 She adds, moreover, any attempts to normalize child abuse of any kind should have no place in our society.

00:21:23.960 I mean, a lawyer, a real lawyer got a hold of her.

00:21:25.720 She's not a real lawyer.

00:21:26.460 She hasn't pressed the bar.

00:21:27.940 Then she says, as for my future with Balenciaga, I'm currently reevaluating my relationship, basing it off their willingness to accept accountability for something that should never happen to begin with.

00:21:36.400 You were part of it. 1.00

00:21:37.420 You wore the stupid black veil. 1.00

00:21:38.920 You put your kids in Balenciaga. 1.00

00:21:40.600 You've been seeing them with the teddy bears.

00:21:42.080 They did the thing with the Supreme Court opinion.

00:21:44.640 They did the thing with the little girls that like, what do you mean reevaluating?

00:21:48.380 What is to reevaluate?

00:21:49.560 They're sorry.

00:21:50.340 They're sorry now because people like you, Carrie, made a thing out of it.

00:21:53.920 It's become a PR nightmare for them.

00:21:56.200 You're exactly right.

00:21:57.400 She thought that this would go away.

00:21:59.100 She could enjoy her Thanksgiving with her family.

00:22:01.600 And it's not going away.

00:22:03.340 In fact, we're doubling down, Kim.

00:22:05.420 We're doubling down.

00:22:06.540 You are the problem. 0.98

00:22:07.700 You have ruined an entire generation of women. 1.00

00:22:09.880 I'm sorry.

00:22:10.320 Let's be real.

00:22:10.860 You have completely destroyed women. 1.00

00:22:13.480 Yes. 1.00

00:22:13.620 You've sexualized women. 1.00

00:22:14.940 You have destroyed a generation of women because you pimp yourself out. 1.00

00:22:19.800 You pimp your kids out and you're disgusting. 1.00

00:22:22.500 You don't represent women. 1.00

00:22:24.220 You don't represent beauty.

00:22:25.520 You're the furthest thing from that.

00:22:27.580 Let's think back to what made you see from the beginning. 0.54

00:22:29.800 She launched her career with a sex tape, which she then pretended was released against her will. 1.00

00:22:36.480 But her partner in that video has come up publicly saying that they worked on it together and Kris Jenner marketed it like a pimp.

00:22:43.360 That's what happened.

00:22:44.280 Then she invented selfie culture by manipulating herself in gross and distorted and obviously fake ways, then denied it to a generation of little girls who felt less than because they thought this is a beauty standard because she's in the beauty business. 1.00

00:22:58.900 And yet, unlike I will give kudos to Bethany Frankel, who has been open about talking about the things that she's had done or would like to have done because she says I'm in the beauty business.

00:23:07.280 And I think I owe it to my audience, to be honest, exactly the opposite of the Kardashians.

00:23:11.440 The country's made her a billionaire and she can't be bothered to do the right thing when the circumstances are staring her dead in the face.

00:23:19.400 She's exploited her own children. 1.00

00:23:21.280 She's her just the same way her mother exploited her. 1.00

00:23:24.160 And now she she doesn't see the ethical lines.

00:23:26.580 But thank God people like you see them.

00:23:28.480 And I don't think Balenciaga is going to get away with this.

00:23:30.840 I think the blowback will continue.

00:23:32.080 And if this is a PR stunt, they'll soon be out of business.

00:23:36.300 That's my prayer.

00:23:37.940 Yes.

00:23:38.700 Yes, Carrie.

00:23:39.720 I'm so glad you're out there.

00:23:41.620 Very fierce mother bear.

00:23:43.320 And, you know, hell hath no fury like the mother bear.

00:23:46.340 Love talking to you.

00:23:47.780 Love talking to you, too.

00:23:48.700 Thank you for having me.

00:23:50.020 OK, when we come back, we've got the perfect next guest on this issue.

00:23:53.380 Author Louise Perry has been writing about the backlash, the downsides to this sexual revolution that we were all supposed to celebrate and be liberated as a result of. 0.67

00:24:03.760 She's very critical of the whole BDSM thing when it comes to women and what it actually does, as opposed to what books like Fifty Shades will tell you it does. 1.00

00:24:11.440 And we're going to get into all of it when Louise Perry comes on the show in two minutes. 0.77

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00:24:46.500 Advice.

00:24:47.000 Our next guest is one of the most influential feminists in the UK right now. 1.00

00:24:54.860 She is anti-casual sex, anti-porn and pro-marriage.

00:24:59.260 Oh, the outrage.

00:25:02.180 She makes her argument in a new book called The Case Against the Sexual Revolution, a new guide to sex in the 21st century.

00:25:09.460 And she is here to discuss it all.

00:25:11.880 Welcome to the show, Louise.

00:25:13.220 Hi, it's so good to be here.

00:25:14.720 Oh, it's so great to have you.

00:25:16.740 So I know that you saw the first segment and have been following what's going on with Balenciaga.

00:25:22.200 First, just to kick it off, since you are, I don't want to say you're an expert in this, but since you've just written the book on the matter, what exactly does BDSM stand for?

00:25:29.760 I know it's like bondage and discipline, but what does it stand for?

00:25:33.920 Bondage, domination or discipline and sadomasochism.

00:25:37.760 Although I kind of prefer to just call it sadomasochism, which is the slightly more old-fashioned term, but I think actually tells you what it is in the way that the acronym disguises it.

00:25:48.140 Someone's going to hurt you.

00:25:49.000 It has become insanely mainstream.

00:25:53.560 I have a chapter on it in my book, the extent to which it has just gone from being a really niche, initially really an element of gay male subculture, and then it moves towards straight sexual culture.

00:26:05.240 And then with online porn at the turn of the century, it just suddenly becomes incredibly mainstream to the extent now that things like strangulation porn is now on the front page of every porn site in the world in a way that it never used to be.

00:26:21.520 So, yeah, so you can see that's where Balenciaga are getting their inspiration.

00:26:25.160 Yeah, so let's talk about that.

00:26:26.600 Just to kick it off, you know, take a step back because we played some of the old ad campaigns, not old, I mean, with the past couple of years,

00:26:33.200 ad campaigns where things are getting darker and darker and they do look very sort of bondage.

00:26:38.840 They look straight out of that BDSM type of sexual promotion.

00:26:43.920 Very unattractive looking people, looking dark, evil, depressed, angry, prone to they look like they've either been subjected to violence or are prone to violence.

00:26:53.460 This has been their thing.

00:26:55.180 And now they've graduated to bringing it down to children.

00:26:58.420 First, they had just the tip of the hat to the children because these people are holding teddy bear purses.

00:27:02.340 Who uses little teddy bears? 0.96

00:27:04.920 Young children.

00:27:06.300 And now they've graduated full on to let's put the four year old little girls on a couch around leashes and collars and cocktail glasses, 0.94

00:27:16.100 holding these little bears with what are clearly, you know, leather bondage, inappropriate outfits on them with sad, confused little faces.

00:27:25.720 Yeah, I mean, they're trying to shock us, right?

00:27:28.640 This is the this is the idea that if they can shock us enough and it will will pay attention, it will be good for the brand.

00:27:33.960 I think it's I think it's almost certainly backfiring.

00:27:36.740 I think they've definitely pushed it too far.

00:27:38.500 But I think one of the features of this new political culture, post-sexual revolution, where everything is permitted, where you can be as hypersexual as you like, as hyper violent as you like, where taboo breaking is seen as a good thing, is actually, you know, a positive revolutionary act.

00:27:58.760 Of course, businesses are going to go in that direction because it attracts it attracts eyeballs, even if it's attracting negative attention, they might think that that's worth running the risk.

00:28:07.460 And there isn't any more the the moral limits that they used to be.

00:28:13.940 And so the only direction that it makes sense to go in for many businesses is more shocking, more extreme in the hope of just driving more and more profits and with no interest in what that does to our to our culture more generally.

00:28:28.660 Mm hmm. And now we're seeing it's so extreme.

00:28:32.640 We're seeing an actual movement to redefine pedophilia as just a bunch of, quote, minor attracted people.

00:28:41.360 They're just, quote, minor dash attracted trying to normalize this as though that's that's another option available to you on the spectrum of sexual choices, as opposed to the most pernicious and evil thing.

00:28:55.400 Short of murder one can do to a child.

00:28:57.660 Yeah, I mean, one of the things that's kind of been memory hold is the fact that the sexual revolutionaries tried this already in the 1970s.

00:29:05.540 There was an amazing degree of acceptance of pedophilia from from theorists like Michel Foucault, who is now taught in every university syllabus across the world.

00:29:16.080 Pretty much these incredibly influential theorists who took basically the central principles of the sexual revolutionary spirit, the idea that all of the old bourgeois Christian norms needed to be done away with.

00:29:32.340 That we were all being oppressed by these restrictive sexual limits and therefore that taboo breaking was the name of the game.

00:29:41.660 They took that principle and they ran with it all the way to the end of the road.

00:29:45.580 And that road leads in the end to sexualizing children. 1.00

00:29:49.100 I think it's impossible to set up a sexual culture which is based on being revolutionary, which is based on boundary breaking and all of this stuff in the name of anti-oppression and not have it lead in that direction inevitably.

00:30:03.940 And it's why we've kind of seen this cycle since the sexual revolution, since those ideas entered the mainstream, where you have an amazing degree of permissiveness, say in the 70s, and I think now, and then you have a backlash because people say, actually, no, you can't.

00:30:20.380 This taboo is one that you just cannot break.

00:30:23.300 We won't accept it.

00:30:24.140 But they keep pushing and they keep pushing and, you know, that they are they're right in the end about the fact that these ideas do lead to those conclusions, which is why I argue in the book that I think the ideas are wrong.

00:30:39.080 Well, I feel like this is a great example of it's great proof of your whole theory, because the fact that this has been mainstreamed on a, you know, previously stellar brand brand, you know, by a previously stellar brand.

00:30:52.140 And clearly okayed by multiple executives at the top levels of the company, it would have to be, not to mention the set designer and even the photographer now is trying to say, oh, you know, I had no responsibility.

00:31:04.960 All I did was light the set and take the pictures.

00:31:07.140 Baloney, baloney.

00:31:08.580 Anybody would have said any photographer worth his salt would have said, I'm not doing that.

00:31:14.040 Find somebody else.

00:31:14.840 I don't photograph little four year olds holding BDSM dolls in the midst of a grown up situation or in the midst of another photo shoot that celebrates a child pornography ruling and or also features a book by somebody who has images of what appear to be castrated children.

00:31:31.480 I don't want anything to do with it.

00:31:33.060 No one's taking responsibility except now Balenciaga in words.

00:31:36.220 But this is the greatest proof that it could be so mean.

00:31:38.900 This isn't some freak YouTube, you know, person or somebody deep down a rabbit hole on Reddit.

00:31:45.080 It's Balenciaga.

00:31:47.220 Yeah, it's so mainstream.

00:31:47.940 And I mean, that goes, I think, for all sorts of extreme sexual imagery that you'll now see.

00:31:56.260 I set myself a project of walking down my local high street, which is completely normal high street, and taking note of all of the super sexual imagery that I saw in shop windows, on buses, on posters, on the streetscape or whatever.

00:32:08.860 And I realised in doing it that it's everywhere, like to the point that you actually start almost zoning it out because it becomes so normal.

00:32:17.980 It's just part of the streetscape.

00:32:19.660 I don't know if you remember back in the 1990s when the Wonder Bra ad came out with Eva Herzogovina, where she was wearing a black push-up bra.

00:32:29.180 And at the time it was considered to be so boundary breaking, and it was apparently causing men to crash their cars because they were so distracted when they were driving.

00:32:36.980 And now I look at them, like, that's tame.

00:32:40.360 You could use that to, you know, supermarkets or whatever have women in that degree of undress in advertising now. 1.00

00:32:46.620 It's the, those kind of limits are like a distant spot in the background now, which is why, of course, you've got the likes of Balenciaga who are pushing more and more and more and more.

00:32:57.200 Because I think brands have learned that there's, there's, there's normally little to stop them, except, of course, and this is what, of course, your last guest was talking about, except mums.

00:33:06.380 I actually think that we are entering a really interesting period in, in feminism right now. 0.79

00:33:11.240 And I'm using feminism in a very broad kind of way, just to mean, like advocating on behalf of women, whatever, whatever that means politically.

00:33:19.900 I think we're entering a really interesting phase where we have so many more mothers involved in campaigning, because it used to be that the nature of having little children is that you can't really go, you know, you can't go to public meetings, you can't go to protests, you can't really participate in public life in the way that you can if you don't have little children.

00:33:40.600 But with the internet, you can be breastfeeding with one hand and on your smartphone, you know, tweeting at your congressman or whatever it is with the other hand.

00:33:49.960 And so I think we have this influx of women entering online political discussion and online campaigning. 0.90

00:33:57.860 And they are exactly the sort of people, the mothers of young children who look at this kind of Balenciaga content and say, absolutely not, absolutely not.

00:34:05.880 So I think that maybe there's going to be more of a reckoning for this sort of stuff soon.

00:34:09.120 Hmm. I hope you're right. I mean, this one's so clear cut. You don't you just stay away from children, stay the hell away from children.

00:34:15.200 Anybody who would have the inclination to go to children for anything like this is sick himself. 0.96

00:34:19.760 I mean, that person needs to be fired just for having the idea. Truly, this is sick. 0.98

00:34:22.900 Like there's something wrong with this person. No normal person would conjure this up as art or a means of selling handbags.

00:34:30.860 Good God. So let's take it up to the adult level, because that's sort of where you began the book and sort of took a look back.

00:34:38.140 At the sexual revolution that, you know, my mother lived through, though, not really, because she was married and kind of tame, but she was alive for I should say.

00:34:49.760 And that was supposed to liberate us all was supposed to put us on equal footing with men.

00:34:54.840 Now we could own our own sexuality. Now women didn't have to feel ashamed about sex anymore. 1.00

00:34:59.260 Women could have as many sexual partners as they wanted, thanks to birth control and didn't have to feel bad about themselves. 1.00

00:35:07.220 And yet and yet it wouldn't work out that way.

00:35:12.840 Now we've had some 50 years to to look at, to judge how the experiment has gone.

00:35:19.600 And you've concluded what?

00:35:21.160 That it hasn't gone very well. Yeah. So that's the promise. Right.

00:35:25.500 That's the and that's the popular narrative, particularly on the left, that the whole the whole project, the sexual revolution, it was done by and for women.

00:35:34.260 And it was all about liberating us from the patriarchal tyranny of the past.

00:35:41.360 There's I mean, there is a little bit of truth to that.

00:35:43.520 I think that it's a really good thing now that we're able to control our reproduction, that women don't necessarily have to spend their whole married lives pregnant or breastfeeding.

00:35:53.360 And, you know, the punishing effects on the body are really real, that kind of experience.

00:35:59.300 So the fact that women can now limit family size is clearly really good.

00:36:03.700 But also, I think I mean, I start from what is a controversial premise, even though it shouldn't be, which is that men and women are really fundamentally different in really important ways.

00:36:14.540 And some of those differences are physical.

00:36:17.000 There's a sexual asymmetry that is just not going away.

00:36:20.020 There is only one sex who gets pregnant and that sex also happens to be a lot smaller, a lot less physically strong than the other, which means that in any heterosexual encounter, women are going to be at a disadvantage. 0.95

00:36:33.860 The other even more controversial premise that I start from is that there are also psychological differences between men and women and their average psychological differences.

00:36:43.000 There are there are there are there are outliers in every direction, but they are also extreme, particularly on some facets.

00:36:51.640 So on sexuality, for instance, it shouldn't need saying.

00:36:56.300 I think that anyone who sort of lived in the world will have observed this, but there is plenty of data showing this.

00:37:02.340 This isn't just anecdotal.

00:37:03.340 So men are on average more interested in having casual sex than are women and men are also more interested in watching porn and men are also more interested in buying sex and prostitution.

00:37:15.740 And basically all of the things that have suddenly become much more socially acceptable post-sexual revolution are things that men are much more likely to want to do than are women.

00:37:25.180 And they're things that also come at an expense to women. 1.00

00:37:29.660 You know, if men are seeking out casual sex or buying sex or buying porn or whatever, they need women to participate in that. 0.99

00:37:36.640 They need women to be providing that casual sex or providing that that that porn material, whatever it is. 1.00

00:37:42.660 And I think that the the liberal feminist narrative, which says that this is all a chance for women to sort of revel in their sexual freedom and to to have sex like a man. 0.99

00:37:52.200 And that's the phrase that's used in Sex and the City in the first episode.

00:37:54.920 It's the phrase that I run with in the book.

00:37:57.100 It's a good phrase because that is basically what's being described.

00:38:00.000 The whole essence of the sexual revolution is about encouraging women to to be more like men in every way, including to have sex like men, to try and imitate male sexuality, to be more casual, to be more emotionless in sexual attachments and so on. 0.91

00:38:15.980 And, you know, for a few women, that works fine, although there's always the risk that, you know, any kind of casual sexual encounter is always going to be much more risky for the woman than it is for the man because of the risk of violence, because of the risk of pregnancy.

00:38:30.340 But some women do really want to do it. 1.00

00:38:32.160 And I sort of think power to them.

00:38:34.160 But those women are a minority. 1.00

00:38:35.360 What's much more common is for women to actually not really be very into casual sex, to do it because they feel like they are obliged, to do it in the hope that it will turn into a real relationship down the track.

00:38:49.200 And this is where I think our sexual culture is really misserving women and young women in particular, because there is this feeling that it's not as though having sex like a man is one choice out of many that's now available to them.

00:39:01.400 It's that having sex like a man is aspirational, is compulsory even. 0.88

00:39:06.040 And I think actually, if you look at it in those terms, the only people who've really benefited from the sexual revolution are a minority of men who are really interested in sexual variety and are attractive enough to get it.

00:39:17.680 I mean, in reality, most men are actually not reveling in any sexual freedom because most men aren't attractive enough to be attracting loads of partners.

00:39:26.600 You've got this small number of men at the very tippy top who are doing really well.

00:39:31.160 This reminds me of a discussion I had with Stephen Crowder.

00:39:33.540 The rest of them are actually pretty miserable.

00:39:34.920 Who was hilarious. 0.99

00:39:35.740 And he talked about how he and his wife, Christians, decided to wait until marriage to have sex.

00:39:41.880 And he's a good looking guy and his wife is an attractive woman.

00:39:45.100 And he he made the joke of lots of people say, like, we waited until marriage.

00:39:50.000 And then he made the joke.

00:39:51.180 He looks at them and he's like, sort of not particularly attractive.

00:39:57.780 He doesn't really think they deserve full credit the way Stephen and his wife did, which was a very funny little bit.

00:40:03.940 But in any event, yes, you're right. 0.75

00:40:05.600 It's a it's a small few on the male side that are able to sort of run around and have as much sex as they want to. 0.58

00:40:12.480 So women have a lot more opportunity because just men tend to want sex more than women want to have it. 0.92

00:40:18.580 So it's like if you're somebody who wants to give it, you'll have plenty of opportunity as a woman, even if you're not at the peak, peak, peak of the attractiveness scale.

00:40:25.880 But you have an interesting line in your book, which I remember Bridget Phetasy cited in her amazing piece about your book.

00:40:31.540 And she's a friend and I love her. And she came on the show.

00:40:33.860 We talked all about it. But the line said something effective.

00:40:37.680 Women fail to recognize too often that being desired is not the same thing as being held in high esteem. 0.81

00:40:44.060 And so many women show up at the guy's house after swiping whatever on Tinder and feel like this is going to be an answer for them. 1.00

00:40:54.960 This is going to make them feel hot or in control or strong by having meaningless casual sex with some hot guy or some rich guy or whatever guy.

00:41:04.780 And it's not until maybe the next morning, maybe a few years later, maybe once they're married, maybe once they just had a baby like Bridget did, that they realize that's exactly the opposite of what happened that night.

00:41:17.900 Yeah, completely. I mean, one of the things that I think one of the ways in which women are really misserved by us not being honest about the differences between male and female sexuality,

00:41:28.020 there is so much effort put into denying those differences, trying to erase those differences, trying to pretend that none of this is biological.

00:41:39.900 It's all just negative stereotypes that we absorb from the culture.

00:41:43.580 No, I think that this is try as we might. I think that we do eventually sort of hit the biological buffers when we try and erase sex differences.

00:41:54.400 And there is an extremely logical reason why male and female sexuality would have evolved to be really different.

00:42:02.440 The costs to women of pregnancy are really high. We're talking, you know, particularly in the ancestral environment where you definitely don't have contraception.

00:42:13.160 You don't have access to safe abortion. You don't have a welfare state. Right. 1.00

00:42:17.620 So, and, and, and pregnancy and labor are really dangerous. So you're talking about nine months of labor, painful, dangerous childbirth,

00:42:25.780 and then many, many years of infant care. If you're going to raise this, raise this child's adulthood, those costs are vast.

00:42:31.780 It means that having sex is one of the most consequential decisions a woman can make in her entire life. Right. 1.00

00:42:37.320 Whereas for men in theory, they can reproduce every time they orgasm, they can flip from woman to woman. 0.68

00:42:44.480 You know, most men don't do that because that's actually not sort of the best evolutionary strategy.

00:42:49.360 It actually makes sense normally for men to invest in one wife and to, and to maximize the attention he gives to, to, to his family, his children.

00:42:58.240 But some men will, might choose the short-term mode where they're trying to just kind of mate with as many women as possible.

00:43:05.820 They, you know, they can do that. There is, there's a kind of psychological mode that men can switch into where they can have that, that, that emotion of sex.

00:43:12.740 And it doesn't mean anything, but that's just not how women are built with maybe a few very unusual exceptions. 1.00

00:43:19.000 We're just not built that way. And we can try. I mean, this is the nature of being a human being compared with other animals.

00:43:24.720 We, we have our animal instincts. There are ways in which we are evolved that, you know, are not going away, but we also have, we're really intelligent.

00:43:34.140 There are ways in which we can try and override those instincts and try and redirect, redirect our behavior.

00:43:42.960 And so that's, I mean, that's what Bridget writes about in her, in her amazing essay, right?

00:43:46.800 That the years that she spent trying to, trying to have sex like a man, trying to fulfill this aspirational model, seeing it as a way of being free.

00:43:55.200 And resisting all of the sort of old stereotypes and stuff. And it just made her miserable. 0.83

00:44:00.120 And it was only years later that she really like fully acknowledged to herself how miserable it had made her.

00:44:06.940 I am, I dedicated my book to, so this is basically the first line when you open it to the women who learned it the hard way.

00:44:15.480 And Bridget said that when she first read that, she just burst into tears because she was like, that's me.

00:44:20.340 I learned it the hard way.

00:44:22.040 And I've had a lot of readers who said the same thing.

00:44:24.080 We had a long talk about it.

00:44:24.640 We had a long talk about it on this show.

00:44:26.800 And, and we, we had very different history in that way.

00:44:29.760 And Bridget had a troubled past and, you know, it manifested in all sorts of dangerous ways in her life.

00:44:34.840 Thank God she's very well now and, and an example to us all on how to persevere.

00:44:40.000 Um, I had a much stronger foundation in my family and I think that really helped.

00:44:44.920 That really helped.

00:44:45.600 Like I, I always knew I was never going to do that.

00:44:48.060 I always, it's not that I didn't have any premarital sex.

00:44:51.320 It's that I was extremely selective and I just always knew I was never going to be providing that to anybody who didn't deserve it.

00:44:59.140 And, uh, that I would never have sex with somebody that, that didn't respect me or that I didn't feel, I knew I wouldn't feel good about after it was over.

00:45:07.520 You know, that I wasn't looking for a meaningless pleasure.

00:45:09.840 You can have a meaningless pleasure with, in a glass of wine, you know, with, without any of those very sticky attachments, so to speak.

00:45:17.400 Um, so I kind of just knew that at a, at a very young age and that was a gift.

00:45:22.140 That was a gift.

00:45:22.700 It wasn't like my parents told me that it was just, I was raised in a very sort of strong, loving family.

00:45:27.640 So I think that can, that can do it.

00:45:29.400 You know, strong ego for the, for the daughters and understanding who they are and what their sense of self-worth is and praising them for their intellect and not in empty ways.

00:45:38.060 Like, Oh, you're so smart.

00:45:38.820 You're so smart.

00:45:39.320 No, actually give them challenges that they can meet and then praise them for their accomplishments that speak to their smarts, not just empty words.

00:45:45.920 Anyway, there, I think there's a whole different way of approaching getting your daughter to be at a place where she just knows she's not going to do that.

00:45:52.660 But what we're doing right now is exactly the opposite.

00:45:55.280 We're gaslighting all these girls. 1.00

00:45:56.880 We're, we're telling them as a society, this other choice that you and I are saying here is going to more than likely make them unhappy.

00:46:04.840 It's going to make them happy.

00:46:06.300 It's going to show how strong they are and how liberated and evolved.

00:46:11.160 So we've crossed into a really dangerous place.

00:46:14.300 Yeah.

00:46:14.980 It's it.

00:46:15.660 I, I am constantly, I'm the mother of a toddler.

00:46:19.720 So I'm not yet facing this, like for real, not family yet, but just speaking to other parents and looking around at what's sort of considered normal among liberal Londoners, which is our social circle, basically.

00:46:32.460 So, um, the permissiveness is amazing to me.

00:46:39.520 They, I mean, this idea that comes out of the 1960s, that, that social guardrails are restrictive, that we shouldn't have default templates, that, that people should be allowed to make their own choices.

00:46:52.320 You know, you can, you, you can, you can run with that up to a point.

00:46:56.400 I do think that the, the completely removing social guardrails is a mistake.

00:46:59.720 I think, honestly, that most people do happiest when they follow the sort of regular templates.

00:47:05.900 Um, but with, to extend that to children is madness to think that children can be deciding, you know, absolutely everything about even down to deciding whether or not they're boys or girls from, from infancy is absurd.

00:47:20.720 But that's become completely normal.

00:47:22.720 And the idea actually that parents should be, should be setting boundaries and should be telling children, you know, these most basic facts that, that, you know, there are hard limits.

00:47:33.100 There are ways in which our biology does, I'm afraid, determine our lives.

00:47:36.740 This phrase that was popular in the second wave, biology isn't destiny.

00:47:40.200 It's not destiny, but it absolutely sets limits for what real life can be.

00:47:47.640 And that's just, that's just the truth.

00:47:49.540 It's real.

00:47:49.960 And we can learn a lot from people who have had to deal with its reality, uh, for decades and decades and the lessons that they learned the hard way, right?

00:47:57.540 It's like that this wisdom is available to us.

00:47:59.520 If only we'll be honest about the lessons, as opposed to saying, oh, there's a bunch of Neanderthals who made terrible choices.

00:48:05.760 And now you're going to feel really happy if you make the choices I want for you.

00:48:08.640 Um, stand by Louise.

00:48:10.020 We have so much more to go over.

00:48:11.240 I'm, I love your book.

00:48:12.240 I love the way you think.

00:48:13.400 Um, and there's so much more.

00:48:14.980 She's taking a hard look at the way men are living and approaching this issue as well.

00:48:18.780 We'll talk about that in one second.

00:48:24.120 Let's start back at the beginning of the book because you open it in, I think a great way, which I know I will be citing again in the future.

00:48:31.580 As soon as I read it, I was like, oh my God, this, this is everything.

00:48:34.160 This speaks to me on so many different levels.

00:48:36.420 And it is the arc of the sexual revolution.

00:48:40.020 When you put someone like Marilyn Monroe through it, it was, you know, a little before her time, but she was one of the leaders of it.

00:48:47.700 Um, and Hugh Hefner.

00:48:50.100 So it starts off with the fact that they, they were buried next to each other, but she did not consent to that.

00:49:01.020 He chose it.

00:49:02.280 And for you, this is the perfect metaphor for the way they live their lives with respect to each other and with respect to the opposite sex in general.

00:49:10.380 Explain.

00:49:10.620 So Hefner and Monroe were actually born, um, in exactly the same year and they spent most of their lives in LA and they're both considered to being the, um, the great icons of the sexual revolution, right?

00:49:24.020 But they also had incredibly different experiences of the sexual revolution in that Hefner lived to grow old.

00:49:32.500 And as you say, he bought the, the crypt next to Monroe's in his final act of creepiness.

00:49:38.580 Uh, he said that, um, I, I can't pass up the chance to spend eternity next to Marilyn or some words to that effect, but, um, they never actually met at any point, but, but Hefner did kind of owe the success of Playboy to Monroe because she was both the first cover star and also the first naked centerfold because he bought images, naked images that she had had taken many years before.

00:50:04.060 When she was a much younger woman and desperately in need of the money, she had, um, she'd agreed to do a naked photo shoot and tried her very best to, to, to make it anonymous and to, she, she signed the release with a fake name and so on.

00:50:17.520 But Hefner found out about the photos, bought them from the photographer, didn't pay Monroe a cent, didn't ask her consent and printed them anyway.

00:50:26.800 And Playboy was a huge success from the very beginning.

00:50:29.240 And she said later that she had to go and buy a copy herself.

00:50:31.920 He didn't even give her a free copy.

00:50:33.220 So, you know, that when Hefner died, he was fated by some eulogists as being this kind of surprise feminist icon and so on, because Playboy was always pushing for, um, the greater availability of contraception and decriminalization of abortion, uh, long before many other places were doing so.

00:50:54.640 So, but, uh, you know, I, I, you kind of got to laugh in a dark way because of course Hefner would want contraception and abortion to be made available to women because all that he was interested in was having sex with as many beautiful young women as possible.

00:51:07.980 I mean, right up until his final days, he had a harem of blonde 20-somethings around him at all time, you know, what he was interested in and what other, I would say, um, men who were sort of supporters of the sexual revolution, what they wanted all along was just to make women more sexually available to them.

00:51:25.380 Um, and they succeeded in that, whereas Monroe, she, as we all know, died young and suffered from all sorts of mental health issues, substance abuse issues.

00:51:34.380 She suffered from domestic violence, from child abuse, you know, the recent biopic, I think really threw into sharp relief exactly how painful her life was at many points and, and she's not alone.

00:51:46.360 There are a lot of women who are considered to be, um, sex icons of that period and later, including porn stars who, you know, many of them have become very, very famous, who've experienced exactly the same kind of mental health issues, exactly the same kind of life's cut short.

00:52:04.380 I mean, the suicide rate in the porn industry is absolutely amazing because this very often is what, is what that kind of sex symbol status does to women.

00:52:14.800 It, it destroys them in a way that it doesn't destroy the likes of Hefner.

00:52:18.820 He had a ball.

00:52:20.000 I mean, he did end up, I think.

00:52:21.420 Even, even you, in the case of Monroe and so many other women, they gravitate toward this status for dark reasons in many cases to begin with.

00:52:32.440 You mentioned Marilyn's, uh, abuse as a child.

00:52:35.900 That's part of it.

00:52:36.960 It's, it's no accident that she wound up becoming the world's greatest sex symbol because this was something that was taught to her from a very young age as an appropriate lane for her to be in, as maybe even the only lane in which she would be recognized and validated and in which she might succeed.

00:52:52.380 So, it's almost, I don't, I don't mean to sound harsher on our fellow women than, than this, than I want to be, but it's almost like you have to be a little suspicious when somebody is living in the lane of sexual icon.

00:53:07.960 Because you have to ask yourself, what made them gravitate toward that?

00:53:12.240 I mean, honestly, to, to, to bring it back to my first discussion, I talked about how Kim Kardashian, she was an adult, but her mother put out her sex tape.

00:53:19.680 That is what the, that is what her sex partner on that tape alleges, that he cut a deal with the mother. 0.77

00:53:24.620 And, and that it was a willing proposition to set, to put out this very graphic sex tape of her daughter. 1.00

00:53:30.300 And now you have her refusing to stand up for these little girls who are being featured in these ads. 1.00

00:53:35.260 It's just, I don't know, I'm seeing patterns and it does lead you to question, how did this person get in this role to begin with?

00:53:45.560 Hmm.

00:53:46.520 Yeah.

00:53:46.980 I mean, Kim Kardashian is so mysterious in this regard, isn't she?

00:53:49.920 Because she's on the one hand, she's the most overexposed woman in the world. 1.00

00:53:53.820 But also, we actually have so little insight into why she does all of this stuff, you know, where, what is the psychological drive behind being famous primarily for your sex tape and your gorgeous body. 1.00

00:54:09.400 Right.

00:54:10.360 It is really mysterious.

00:54:12.220 I mean, perhaps in time we'll come discover more.

00:54:14.560 I, I, I agree with you.

00:54:16.360 I share this skepticism of, of women who, um, who choose to commodify their sexuality in some way. 0.99

00:54:24.000 I think like 99 times out of a hundred, you end up finding out at some point that there's some sexual abuse and mental health issues, you know, some kind of really dark drive towards doing that.

00:54:36.200 It's not to say that that's always the case, but it's, it's rare to find exceptions.

00:54:41.340 Mm-hmm.

00:54:42.620 And you mentioned, um, some of these porn stars, you write about this in the book, um, on how almost invariably, if you interview one of these women while they're in the midst of the, their stardom, they will defend the porn industry and talk about being liberated and how they are making a lot of money.

00:55:01.640 And they're there by choice and don't feel sorry for them.

00:55:05.020 They're exploiting the industry.

00:55:06.620 The industry is not exploiting them and so on.

00:55:08.980 And yet you actually take a deep dive into that and find that in case after case, some of the most famous adult film actresses we've seen have come out later with a very different message, which doesn't get covered anywhere near as much.

00:55:23.460 Yeah, absolutely.

00:55:24.120 They, they, they basically always travel in that direction.

00:55:26.820 So when you're in the industry, you defend the industry, you talk about how you're doing it for your own sexual liberation, et cetera.

00:55:33.300 And then after you leave the industry, that's when the story changes.

00:55:36.080 Because actually I think sometimes you need that distance from what can be really, really traumatic experience in order to actually sit back and assess it and say, hang on.

00:55:44.940 That actually caused me a lot of pain.

00:55:46.340 And a really good example of this is Jenna Jameson, who's extraordinarily famous, successful porn actress in the 1990s and is now actually a campaigner against porn and in particular campaigner against MindGeek, which is the big umbrella organization that owns the most popular porn platforms in the world.

00:56:03.160 Jenna actually did a, participated in a debate in the Oxford Union 20 odd years ago in defense of porn and, and spoke, you know, very persuasively on how porn was actually a great thing and she won her debate.

00:56:18.740 And then I, I recently spoke at the Oxford Union on much of the same issue and stood in exactly the same place that Jenna, that Jenna stood.

00:56:28.360 And I opened by saying, you know, this, this was the debate that was held 20 years ago.

00:56:32.580 And I reckon Jenna Jameson would now be standing on the opposite side of this bench because she has completely changed her tune about porn industry as porn actresses almost always do if they live that long. 1.00

00:56:43.160 Because as I was saying, the suicide rate, the substance abuse rate is absolutely amazing.

00:56:46.640 Mm hmm. What, what about, I mean, I worry about porn because I have three kids, right?

00:56:52.700 And they say that the average 12 year old boy has already been exposed to porn.

00:56:56.000 At least I think it's well over 50% have, have more than likely been exposed to pornography by 12, by 12.

00:57:03.960 They don't know what this is. That's dark. And it's not, I mean, forgive me for drawing lines like this, but back in my day, you know, in the seventies, maybe you saw some guy's playboy, right?

00:57:14.800 And you saw a picture of a naked woman, or you read something naughty in a penthouse, not at all what these kids have available to them with just a phone, you know, just a phone.

00:57:25.260 And ideally you've got the parental, all that stuff, but they can get around it.

00:57:28.760 They have some friend who doesn't have it, or there's some device in the house that doesn't, whatever they're seeing it.

00:57:33.640 And I know I've, I've read and I, we talked about how, like, one of the reasons it's so damaging is because it, these young boys who really get into it can start to think that that's what sex is.

00:57:43.380 And when they have their first normal sexual relationship with a, with a real live girl in their school or college, they think that, you know, this is what sex is.

00:57:52.740 And it's some dirty, weird, bizarre thing instead of this beautiful, somewhat tenuous in the beginning, you know, like explore, exploratory, beautiful, loving exchange.

00:58:04.800 So, but I think it's more complex than that.

00:58:07.820 Like there are, there are other dangers to exposing yourself to porn, having your child get exposed to porn.

00:58:14.620 Could you talk about it?

00:58:16.020 I mean, I'm going to do the back in my day thing too.

00:58:18.160 And I'm only 30.

00:58:19.260 I was born in 1992, but I was just a little bit too young to have smartphones specifically.

00:58:25.880 So we didn't have smartphones until we were sort of 18.

00:58:28.520 And I think that's the really, really big change that Gen Z now have access to this stuff where, as you say, they're 12 younger.

00:58:37.120 The statistics are horrifying for any parent, for anyone really, who's concerned about the next generation.

00:58:44.440 They're basically guinea pigs.

00:58:46.580 We've got these vast multi-billion dollar global corporations who are basically beaming the most sadistic content you can imagine into little computers that are in the pockets of children.

00:58:58.520 And it frustrates me so much that anyone who talks about this, you're sort of treated as if you're being, you're being alarmist or prudish.

00:59:06.120 I'm like, hang on, this isn't normal.

00:59:07.920 This isn't, you know, we've had however many millennia of people, you know, having sex and working it out.

00:59:16.140 It's not as if this is being anti-sex to say that we shouldn't have children watching hundreds or thousands of adults, video of adults having sex before they've even kissed a member of the opposite sex.

00:59:29.440 I mean, that's not normal.

00:59:31.420 This is extremely normal.

00:59:32.980 It's extremely experimental, what's going on right now.

00:59:35.580 And I mean, I'm personally really frustrated by how little governments have done to regulate these huge businesses and actually how people on the left who are supposed to have, you know, an opposition to big business and to be critical of capitalism.

00:59:53.560 They're actually often the first to resist any kind of efforts to regulate this stuff and say, actually, you know, children really shouldn't be seeing this.

01:00:02.040 The really extreme stuff really shouldn't be there.

01:00:03.960 The problem is, I think, that the platforms make money by attracting viewers and particularly they make money from the most compulsive users.

01:00:13.820 I mean, that tends to be also true of, say, the gambling industry or alcohol, smoking, drugs, all these things which are addictive.

01:00:21.040 They tend to sell most of their product to the minority of users who use it really compulsively.

01:00:26.460 So it's about 2% of men, you watch porn for more than seven hours a week, which is an enormous amount of time, right?

01:00:34.800 And anyone who's doing that is going to have almost certainly going to have erectile dysfunction, is going to have really, really dysfunctional relationships, is basically not going to be capable of having normal sex, having normal sex relationships at all.

01:00:45.620 And those men are the main people who are driving the industry, and one of the harms done to them, you know, I think that the harms done to porn stars is really extreme.

01:00:59.280 But I actually think the consumers are harmed too, and I feel terrible for some of the men who get stuck in this addictive cycle.

01:01:04.960 It's a miserable cycle.

01:01:06.180 You know, I've heard from these men, I've had emails from them and so on, saying how much they actually hate this product, they hate being so hooked on it.

01:01:13.180 But the way that it's designed is such that it really kind of taps into the most primal bits of your brain.

01:01:19.680 And it is almost like being addicted to gambling or to drugs or something like that, and that it leaves you wanting more.

01:01:24.920 And even more so, it kind of, you have to get an even more extreme stimulus in order to get the next hit, because you get acclimatized to the more vanilla content, and then you seek out more extreme content.

01:01:38.680 And this is when the platforms come in with their algorithms, and they suggest the more extreme stuff.

01:01:43.180 So they say, and what about this video?

01:01:45.060 And what about this video?

01:01:46.520 And one of the really disturbing things that we're hearing now from psychologists who are working with sex offenders is that while it used to be that the only, the kind of the profile of the sex offender who had been caught watching child porn in possession of child sexual abuse images,

01:02:04.180 you know, more accurately, were men who were sort of very deep-seated pedophiles, like they were only interested in children, they had the kind of classic profile of the pedophilic offender.

01:02:16.460 Whereas now what they're seeing more and more is men, sometimes really quite young men, who actually don't have that kind of profile, have not necessarily been interested sexually in children.

01:02:26.220 What they, what's wrong with them is that they're addicted to porn, and they end up, initially they're watching normal porn, but probably for a very young age.

01:02:35.220 And then very soon they get, they get used to that, and they seek out more extreme content.

01:02:39.660 And so they, they end up watching sadomasochistic content, really kind of taboo-breaking content.

01:02:46.000 And, you know, what's the most taboo-breaking content that is?

01:02:48.480 It's child sexual abuse images.

01:02:49.820 And so they end up in the, the, the very worst parts of the internet, because that's the kind of, the pipeline that's being established.

01:02:57.440 And it's a profitable pipeline.

01:02:59.340 That's what's really disturbing about it.

01:03:00.760 Oh, so dark, but important to know about it for the people who just give your kid the phone and you just trust and you, you think you're okay.

01:03:08.700 Cause you put parental controls on there.

01:03:10.280 Your kid can figure out your parental controls.

01:03:12.360 He's probably smarter than you are on there.

01:03:13.920 You have to check, you have to be a spy.

01:03:16.080 You know, the, the host who follows me here on Sirius is Dr. Laura. 0.52

01:03:20.420 And she made her bones as a family and child psychologist, uh, growing up, you know, years and years.

01:03:25.540 And, um, you know, she, she talks about how there's, there's, there's no child privacy when they're minors in your home, when they're living in your home, you're responsible for their welfare.

01:03:34.660 And you don't need to broadcast it from the rooftops that you're spying on them, but you need to check your kid's history and figure out where he's been going online.

01:03:41.820 Because this is not only because of this, but because of bullying, which has led to a lot of suicidality amongst teens.

01:03:48.120 Sometimes you don't even know what's happening in the back end of Snapchat and so on.

01:03:51.620 So be a, be a spy, be nosy.

01:03:54.080 It's not about violating a privacy.

01:03:55.540 It's about being a parental, uh, role model who cares and prioritizes safety.

01:04:02.320 Something you mentioned in the book is one of the biggest stories of the past couple of years when it comes to celebrities.

01:04:07.720 And that is the actor, army hammer, army hammer, who correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the guy, he actually is of the family arm and hammer.

01:04:19.260 That's why he wound up named army hammer.

01:04:21.080 My team will tell me if I'm wrong, but anyway, he's got that connection.

01:04:23.900 He's been a very successful actor in Hollywood and then his career completely imploded because he had the most unusual, weird me too situation that we've seen amongst any actors for a very long time.

01:04:36.300 And I wonder if there's any clues there for regular women, because I think without the story having broken, 90% of women would have looked at army hammer and said, sure, good looking guy, Hollywood celebrity comes from this long line of, you know, well-off families.

01:04:51.700 You know, what, what was army hammer's problem and what lessons are there for the rest of us in this?

01:04:57.060 Right.

01:04:58.060 Right.

01:04:58.100 He looks so wholesome, doesn't he?

01:05:00.100 Yeah, he does.

01:05:01.100 Of all the male celebrities you'd expect.

01:05:02.820 Yeah.

01:05:04.780 Yeah.

01:05:05.380 So what, so what army hammer was caught doing was, well, I, I think the lesson in the army hammer story is actually that there was so many clues for so many years that he had weird, aggressive sexual preferences.

01:05:21.420 So he, he himself had spoken to interviewers about the fact that he liked choking women in bed.

01:05:29.340 Choking isn't the right word.

01:05:30.440 It's the, it's the word that that's used in the porn industry, but it's really strangulation because choking, you know, you choke on food, you're strangled externally by someone else.

01:05:37.760 And it is suddenly the part of this incredibly voguish thing.

01:05:41.140 I think almost entirely as a result of, of, of porn mainstreaming it.

01:05:44.980 So he was speaking to interviewers about, about this years ago, that girlfriends had sort of, they've been whispering about him being kind of aggressive in bed in a way that was maybe, you know, made women uncomfortable, but also within the sort of sex positive ethical framework.

01:06:02.120 That's fine.

01:06:03.080 You know, you can, you can have as sadistic as you like in your sexual tastes. 0.81

01:06:07.760 You can, you can like, you know, it doesn't matter how weird it is.

01:06:12.180 It doesn't matter how troubling it is.

01:06:13.960 All that matters is that your partner is consenting.

01:06:17.160 And he's this gorgeous, as you say, wealthy family, whatever, gorgeous Hollywood actor.

01:06:22.560 He had no shortage of women who wanted to have sex relationships with them, with him and were willing to put up with whatever weird stuff he was requesting in bed. 0.65

01:06:30.580 It was only later on that more and more of these women were starting to talk about how bad the relationship had been, leaving the relationships. 0.76

01:06:41.240 And you had, I think it was like text exchanges that got shared showing that he was asking for really, really weird sexual stuff, including the, you know, the big headline thing was that he had a cannibal fetish.

01:06:51.300 Not that he had actually killed and eaten anyone, but he had all these fantasies about cannibalism that he wanted the women to play along with and like really, really crazy stuff.

01:07:00.920 Not sure how you can satisfy the desire in a partner.

01:07:04.440 It's not really on the radio.

01:07:06.840 And the thing that was really kind of darkly funny about it is the way that this got reported.

01:07:11.580 And I think it was Rolling Stone and some other places as well reported this all as like, there's nothing wrong with cannibalism per se.

01:07:18.180 The problem is, the problem is with cannibalism without consent and that he was trying to sort of pressure women into participating in a fetish who didn't want to.

01:07:28.320 And I was like, oh, come on. 0.64

01:07:29.620 Like, how, how many red flags do you need until we start saying, no, look, this guy just clearly has really, really aggressive, unpleasant, violent sexual fantasies. 0.57

01:07:40.640 He's not safe out, basically.

01:07:42.780 You know, you wouldn't recommend him as a, as a, as a husband to your daughter.

01:07:46.900 This is absolutely, you know, this is bad news.

01:07:50.120 But the problem is that I think we actually, the, the super tolerant sex positive thing, which is extremely fashionable among young women, I think it trains women out of their self-protective instincts. 0.68

01:08:01.860 I think that actually we, you know, one of the blessings actually that women are born with is a, is a radar for, for sensing like guys who are weird sexually.

01:08:12.200 I think that we, we have that built in.

01:08:15.140 And the problem is that it can be overridden when we're worried about being polite, we're worried about being politically correct, whatever it is.

01:08:25.620 And when you've got this ideology that says that actually anything goes, even cannibalism, as long as everyone's consenting, what you end up doing actually is telling young women who, who want to be nice, who want to be liked, who want to be with it, who want to be attractive to gorgeous Hollywood actors.

01:08:39.780 Because that actually their instincts are wrong and they need to be overriding them.

01:08:43.120 And I, and I want to, and I want to say, and I say explicitly in this book, no, your instincts are right.

01:08:47.420 Actually, you know, the, the best way that you can like navigate a really dangerous, sometimes sexual marketplace and stay away from the bad guys is by, is by properly listening to your gut instinct.

01:08:59.120 Because if you feel something's off, it's probably because it is.

01:09:04.080 Well, that's the thing.

01:09:05.020 Cause I know at the end of your book, you get into advice that you have for your, your daughter, right?

01:09:09.620 You have a baby daughter.

01:09:10.780 You were pregnant with her when you were pregnant with the book.

01:09:11.840 I have a baby son actually, but I have my imagined daughter, my future daughter.

01:09:16.160 Okay.

01:09:16.240 Okay.

01:09:16.500 All right.

01:09:16.800 I knew you were pregnant when you were writing the book, but it's good advice. 0.97

01:09:20.100 And, and one of the pieces of advice reminded me of Gavin DeBecker's gift of fear, which is you have an instinct, listen to it, listen to it.

01:09:29.060 And when, when the circumstances around you are telling you, don't listen to it, blow it off, go with this guy.

01:09:35.440 Look, he's so handsome.

01:09:36.740 No, there's that instinct in there is there.

01:09:40.020 Thanks to thousands of years of evolution, which has given you a gift, one that you need.

01:09:44.540 It only works if you obey it.

01:09:46.300 Apparently that's such a good book.

01:09:48.580 And then he has so many case studies in there where he talks about cases where women had, they'd felt that fear, but they'd overridden it because they wanted to be nice.

01:09:57.380 And I think that so often that's what's going on with women. 1.00

01:10:00.060 I mean, that I mentioned at the top about the ways in which there are psychological differences between men and women.

01:10:06.780 There are quite a few.

01:10:07.860 And one of the ones that's most marked is a psychological trait that psychologists call agreeableness, which is basically in layman's terms, like niceness.

01:10:16.300 Your, your, your desire to please other people, to put other people first.

01:10:20.180 Women are much higher on average in agreeableness than our men.

01:10:23.260 And it's probably because you have to be agreeable with your baby.

01:10:29.020 You know, like just the nature of being a mother is that you have to put your children first.

01:10:33.720 You have to put their needs first.

01:10:35.280 You have to be nice and patient when they're screaming at you and all of this kind of stuff.

01:10:39.360 So it's, it's completely adaptive when it comes to looking after your children.

01:10:43.140 The problem is that it can be taken advantage by, by other adults and particularly by predatory men who will, will push it as far as they possibly can in trying to encourage women to prioritize being nice and polite over obeying their instincts and listening to the gift of fear.

01:11:02.460 Yeah. And yeah. And I think unfortunately that this whole political, um, ideology around, um, supposed sexual liberation actually really plays into the hands of the sexual predators.

01:11:15.120 Yes. Like there's a bit, a bit in my book where I talk about, um, advice columns and a particular advice column I, I, I zoom in on, which is a woman who talks about how she, she's, she's interested in BDSM.

01:11:29.980 She's been, I guess, watching BDSM porn and she's, she kind of wants to experiment and she's got out of a relationship.

01:11:35.840 What should she do? And the advice column says, you know, first of all, great, like pursue every possible source of sexual freedom you can imagine.

01:11:44.440 And second of all, what you've got to do is go onto, um, a kink dating app or dating website and, uh, just say that you're really interested in whatever being strangled by a man and then just like invite him around your house. 0.84

01:11:59.180 And I said, what are you talking about? That is worst advice you can possibly imagine giving to a young woman.

01:12:05.460 But this is so mainstream because the, partly because the idea is that there is a completely bright line between who we are in the bedroom and who we are outside of the bedroom.

01:12:16.580 And so if a man is really interested in, in violence and sadism and cannibalism, that doesn't necessarily tell us anything about what he's really like, which is so counterintuitive.

01:12:26.460 And I think, no, that, that bright line doesn't exist. What you're basically telling this young woman to do is to go out and find men who are interested in sexual violence and then invite them home.

01:12:38.640 I'm like, if you go out looking for a guy who's interested, he's just like aroused by rape, there's a pretty strong chance he's going to rape you. 0.86

01:12:45.860 And just to say, oh, well, like teach men not to rape, that's on him. It's like, fine. But actually, I'm interested in preventing this stuff before it happens, not just in trying to punish it afterwards. 0.98

01:12:58.340 Yes. This reminds me, I had a great conversation when I was at NBC with Pamela Anderson and, uh, you know, she's incredibly beautiful and she's like iconically beautiful.

01:13:07.840 And of course, starred in Baywatch and was married to Tommy Lee and Kid Rock and so on. And she was never me too. She never, she had experiences with Harvey Weinstein and so on, and it didn't happen to her.

01:13:20.140 Now she's Canadian. She's very practical. She is a nice, practical, wholesome Canadian gal. You wouldn't, you might not associate the word wholesome with her, but having spent some time with her, she, she really is.

01:13:33.880 She's got a very good head on her shoulders. Not to say she hasn't made any mistakes. I'm just saying I was impressed with her sensibility. And she was like, you know why? I never took a meeting in a hotel room ever.

01:13:43.540 Somebody tried to take me to the hotel room and I was like hard pass. And, you know, plenty of people tried to take Pamela Anderson into the hotel room for the meeting.

01:13:52.100 I mean, there is zero chance that these men in Hollywood did not, did not try to exploit her in that. So she has a very good head on her shoulders and I'm not victim blaming. I understand why these women got manipulated.

01:14:02.260 And the Harvey Weinstein, it's like, you're in the middle of a hotel lobby meeting. And then he's like, I'm meeting whoever in my hotel room and you should come with. You don't know. He lured people. He was smart and devious.

01:14:12.260 And devious. But my point is, you can have your hard and fast rules because you say that this happens mostly to girls. I think you write between the ages of what, 15 and 24.

01:14:21.540 That, that age set in particular, correct me if I'm wrong, but that they really need to have some hard and fast rules about under what circumstances will I put myself behind a locked door or a closed door with an unknown man?

01:14:32.340 Yeah. So the one context here is I used to work in a rape crisis center. So I've, I obviously don't write about like girls and women I work with in the book, but it's, it really informed my thinking on this.

01:14:48.300 It's partly just from seeing how amazingly young rape victims are. They're younger than you'd think. So the modal rape victim is only 15.

01:14:56.160 So what we're often dealing with here is girls who basically don't know anything about the dark side of male sexuality, who, who, who can't,

01:15:04.300 you can't expect girls that young to, um, come up with their own rules, their own boundaries to know things like, you know, don't trust a guy who invites you to his hotel room for a meeting to all of these things, which for older women seem like common sense.

01:15:20.020 But when you're 15, you don't know that. And you, and you don't know anything, what you're interested in is, is, is being liked and being popular and being normal.

01:15:27.780 You know, teenagers care so much about being normal. It's so painful for them to, to be seen, to be doing something weird. Um, and I think that we do girls a real disservice when we don't offer them proper guidance and boundaries and, and, and limits and say, well, you know, you, you kind of make it up yourself. It's going back to that permissive parenting thing.

01:15:46.900 I think actually we owe it to younger women as, as women who've learned it, who've learned it the hard way, who've, who've, who've lived it already to say, you know, here are the things that are ill-advised. Um, because the problem is if you just require that young women learn it themselves, then sometimes they will, sometimes they'll learn it sort of painlessly, but often they won't learn it painlessly.

01:16:10.320 And the problem is that the, the, the, the very worst stuff can sometimes happen, which you can't come back from. I say so much better to be a strict parent who sets boundaries.

01:16:22.040 Um, and by the way, the other dynamic with the young women, the 15 year olds is a very often, the men who take advantage of them are older and there's something special about being chosen. If you're the young one and some, especially authority figure is coming on to you.

01:16:38.560 And some of these circumstances, it would be statutory rape. Um, but the girl has no appreciation for that and just feels special, like a chosen one. Like she's, there's something about her that would make this authority figure pay attention to her.

01:16:51.060 And it's something to warn against. Um, only, only a bad person would exploit that dynamic with a young, with a young girl. It's, there's so many landmines out there for these young girls in particular. We have to educate them on them, on them all.

01:17:05.800 You have to do that and then keep them happy. It's a challenge. You can't spend your life mired in, and, and, and don't take a drug. I just walked, walked my kids through the other day. My friend, Eric Bowling, uh, he lost his sweet son, Eric Chase to one pill at his university.

01:17:20.560 He tried a pill like so many kids do, and it was laced with fentanyl and he died. And now Eric's got a foundation in it. And it's called one pill can kill his campaign to try to raise awareness to this problem. So, you know, you tell, you tell your kids about that. Like, don't even try the one it's too dangerous. Don't take a pill that wasn't prescribed to you directly by a doctor and under control that the amounts and all that.

01:17:41.680 And don't go behind the closed doors and don't trust authority figures who want secrets between you and you. It's like, Oh, have a great day. Bye, honey. Mommy loves you.

01:17:51.240 But we have to do it, Louise. We got to do it.

01:17:53.660 Yeah, yeah, we do, because this is the printer. And no one said parenting was easy job, right?

01:18:03.220 But it is more difficult, I think, in that in the age of the internet and so on, when you don't have these kind of small communities where people know each other. I mean, the nature of the internet, it's basically like, it is a global community. And we hand over these devices to kids and just say, like, off you run.

01:18:19.520 And I do wonder, actually, if parents of my generation, when we get to the point of having teenage children, are going to be more restrictive than, say, baby boomer and Gen X parents were, because we know what the internet's like. So I think there might be a bit of a swing back against giving kids the sort of freedom that they're enjoying now.

01:18:41.120 I mean, I'm in news. So I'm already living that on my poor kids. But there, it's working. I mean, I have a 13 year old, he's our eldest. And I checked his phone to see what he was doing and how long it was. And he was averaging seven minutes a day. Like, good boy.

01:18:57.740 That's my boy. And they were the most benign websites. It's all like Steph Curry. You want to know what the stats were, that kind of stuff. So I'm very pleased. But of course, he's only 13. And as they get older, it gets trickier. All right, stand by, Louise. I'll squeeze in a quick break. And we have much more to discuss right after this. Don't go away.

01:19:14.620 Louise, this is a weird way to start, but can we spend a minute on strangulation? It's like a weird way to start. First of all, I would like to offer my tip right now on how to avoid being strangled. I know, I don't mean to make light of it, but it's honestly a safety tip. I had a very bad stalking problem. And I had these security guards with me for many, many weeks. And I learned all sorts of great things.

01:19:42.560 And here is a tip for anybody, God forbid, you should find yourself in the position where you are being strangled and it's against your will. This is why I'm talking to Louise about it. Cause some people actually say, Oh, it was by consent. So I'll try to do this to myself. Abby just left the room. Otherwise I'd have her come over here and try to pretend to do it to me. All right. So let's say the person's hands are around your neck. All right. So for our listening audience, picture the strangulation pose where the person has their hands around your neck.

01:20:11.280 So the average woman trying to pull on the wrists of the average man, cause it would usually be a man trying to pull, pull, pull those hands down. She cannot do it. She is not strong enough. As Louise points out, this is one of the fundamental differences and dangers between men and women. Um, so what you do is, and forgive me, I'll take one hand away so I can just show you. The woman can do this. She can pull the pinkies. 1.00

01:20:35.180 You will just grab both pinkies and you pull as hard as you can out and down. And that that's not about strength. That's about ligaments and bone structure and, um, tendons. And the person's hands will come off because they don't want to lose their pinkies. So anyway, it's a tip. I give it to every women, every woman I can find every women's group, every young girl, you know, colleges and so on. It's just simple and anyone can do it.

01:21:02.080 All right. There's a reason we're talking about quote choking or strangulation, because as you point out, weirdly, this is a rising trend. More and more men are saying they want it and women are claiming they'll do it and they want it to, which I don't believe, but they'll at least submit to it. 0.73

01:21:19.320 So do the men want to do the strangulation in addition to having it done to them? Or, or is it just a one way deal? The men do it to the women and the women have to pretend it's, it's okay with them. 0.66

01:21:30.300 It's pretty much always in, in straight relationships. It's almost always male and female. And as you say, the strength difference is such that that's a dangerous position for women to be in. I mean, sometimes there are women who will, who will ask for it. It's being very normalized in porn and in women's bags and so on.

01:21:49.260 So you can kind of see why it would become a fashion thing for us to ask for. It's a way of showing that you're edgy and all of this. Right. But the problem is, I mean, well, there are a whole bunch of problems with this.

01:22:01.880 One of them is that there's this, there's been this rising phenomenon in the UK and also in the US and in most of other countries where you have women who are killed by men that they're in sexual relationships with and the men, when they're asked by police, what happened say, oh, well, it was a sex game.

01:22:23.800 She asked for it. And, you know, one thing led to another and she died accidentally. And I actually work for a campaign group called We Can Consent to This, which documents examples of, of, of cases where men have made these kind of claims.

01:22:40.800 And it's always been male defendants in every single case that we found. We've not found an example of a woman trying to claim this kind of defense in court. 0.71

01:22:47.460 And the problem is that when you have this amazing normalization of that kind of violence in the bedroom, it becomes so much easier for defendants to get away with spinning this kind of story.

01:23:00.240 I mean, often we're talking about cases where there's been really extreme violence. There's often longstanding abuse in the relationship.

01:23:06.940 This might be a woman who's, you know, a prostitute who's been murdered by a client, like all sorts of extremely suspicious circumstances, which make you think, actually, no, this has got nothing to do with a conceptual sex game.

01:23:18.920 This is just murder. But the problem is that when you've got this idea implanted in the heads of policemen and jurors and judges and everyone that, oh, well, this is normal.

01:23:29.440 This is just a sort of the slightly adventurous aspect of, of, of, of sex games that people get up to, then it becomes so much easier to spin these stories.

01:23:37.700 And the nature of the, the nature of the cases is the woman can't give her side of the story. 1.00

01:23:41.280 She can't tell that the court that actually this guy's making up a pack of lies.

01:23:45.780 And so they're getting away with it. You know, we found that in as many of half of cases, men who, who, who spin these stories are not being convicted of murder.

01:23:55.500 They're being convicted of manslaughter in a much, much lower sentence, or they're getting away with it entirely.

01:24:00.960 And this is happening in America as well. It's really troubling phenomenon.

01:24:04.160 It's just one example of why, you know, the defense that's made by sex positive feminists is that this is just about liberation. 1.00

01:24:16.660 It's just about choice. And they say, no, you can't just say, well, this is between two people privately in a bedroom and it's no one else's business.

01:24:22.140 Because when it's leaking out of the bedroom, when it's leaking into the culture, when, you know, you've got these, these, these horrible stories, which are directly downstream from the mainstream of BDSM food porn.

01:24:34.500 In some ways, this is more disturbing, more dangerous even than stranger strangulation.

01:24:41.220 Because if a stranger, a bad guy comes up and tries to hurt you, you understand what your mission is, which is get away, run, do the trick I just showed you, do whatever you can to save your life.

01:24:52.380 In a, in what's supposed to be a loving sexual relationship, you're quote, consenting.

01:24:58.960 And by the point you realize, or someone watching you would realize you're in danger, you're in trouble.

01:25:06.580 You're, you've lost, you've lost oxygen, you've lost your strength, you've lost probably the ability to actually do my trick to, to get yourself out of it.

01:25:14.560 You, you, you have entirely placed your safety in the hands of this other person who obviously cannot be trusted.

01:25:22.300 Mm-hmm.

01:25:23.540 I, I, I quote a, um, a clinical neurologist in the book who's, who's done studies of, um, the effects of strangulation on the body.

01:25:31.400 And she said that it's a myth to think you can do this safely, that the neck has just contained so many important things, but it isn't possible to place pressure on the neck without placing pressure on something really important.

01:25:43.800 You know, that it's, it's also kind of a myth to think that you can just accidentally kill someone through a slip of the wrist.

01:25:49.900 Like it takes five minutes maybe to strangle someone to death.

01:25:53.980 And if you try, I wish that every lawyer would do this to juries when you're, you're, you're dealing with these kinds of cases, you know, try gripping your own wrist really hard for five minutes.

01:26:02.180 It feels like a really long time.

01:26:04.020 So the idea that these guys are killing women accidentally, I don't think is true.

01:26:08.740 But even if you're, you don't kill someone, you can still cause a lot of damage.

01:26:12.420 You know, the, the, all sorts of injuries resulting from strangulation, everything from miscarriage to stroke to incontinence, you know, you don't mess with the neurological system like that.

01:26:24.440 And the idea that this is being promoted as just a kind of way to spice things up in the bedroom, I think is terrible and being promoted to young people even worse.

01:26:34.260 Yeah.

01:26:35.600 Uh, one, one second on sex workers before we get to advice.

01:26:40.760 Um, sex workers, you'd sum it up as follows.

01:26:45.560 People are not products.

01:26:47.480 I told the audience yesterday, we just got back from a few days in Amsterdam over in Holland.

01:26:52.500 And they are of course, famous or infamous, depending on your view for the red light district, which we did not attend given that.

01:26:58.900 Well, we're normal, no offense, but we're over there with our family.

01:27:02.940 And, um, but I, it was described to me by some of the locals and apparently you go over there as a young woman, a prostitute, and you can,

01:27:10.600 you can basically rent a room and put yourself on display for eight hours that these are rented out by landlords.

01:27:16.660 The women don't own the spots and, uh, any number of men will just come in and, and frequent your, you know, room over and over and over all day. 1.00

01:27:26.380 And this is supposed to be, look, there, it's their choice.

01:27:29.740 It's their money. 0.74

01:27:31.340 Um, it's legalized prostitution. 1.00

01:27:33.380 We have it here in Vegas in the United States.

01:27:35.880 You know, this is definitely an outcome of this, you know, modern feminist movement, which sees prostitution, as you pointed out, as quote, sex work. 0.95

01:27:47.300 We're not allowed to really use any term other than sex work because other, otherwise you've demonized these women and their choices. 1.00

01:27:55.320 What do you make of that?

01:27:56.180 I mean, if you want to claim that sex is just like anything else, like it's like playing tennis with someone, shaking someone's hand, whatever, it's like a neutral social interaction.

01:28:07.640 And therefore that it's completely fine to commodify it.

01:28:11.280 And it's just sex work and sex work is work. 0.78

01:28:13.420 That's the slogan that you've probably heard that it should just be regarded as any other type of job.

01:28:18.020 The problem with that kind of idea is that if you, if you take that to its logical conclusion, then if sex can't have a special category, then neither can rape.

01:28:28.020 Then we just have to regard rape as what theft or fraud or something like that.

01:28:35.040 Sexual harassment can't be considered to be uniquely harmful.

01:28:38.260 It just has to be considered alongside any other kind of harassment.

01:28:42.300 And the problem is that people don't feel that way.

01:28:44.500 People, people instinctively feel and legal systems reflect this fact that rape is worse than theft.

01:28:50.040 And they instinctively feel that sexual harassment is more harmful than other kinds of harassment.

01:28:54.460 Louise, I'm just going to go through a couple of them, but people need to buy the book so they can read your.

01:28:58.020 Conclusion, listen to your mother.

01:29:00.240 One of your points is chivalry.

01:29:02.980 People need to remember is actually a good thing.

01:29:06.140 Why is that important?

01:29:07.520 It was, as we were talking about at the top of the show, that there is this inherent sexual asymmetry between men and women.

01:29:14.720 Women are the ones who get pregnant. 1.00

01:29:16.200 Men are bigger and stronger.

01:29:17.900 You've got all the psychological differences going on.

01:29:19.880 And I think given that fact, which isn't going away, is hugely unwise for women's perspective to do away with chivalry, which is basically, you know, an ideology that says that men ought to restrain themselves or to, you know, if you understand male strength as a sword, to keep it within its sheaths, to be courteous towards women, to put women first, to open doors.

01:29:47.520 You know, sometimes, I get it, sometimes, let's say, as a professional woman, it might feel patronizing.

01:29:52.540 It might feel annoying to be, have doors held open for you and all this kind of stuff.

01:29:57.460 But that is a tiny price to pay for the benefits that chivalry brings with it.

01:30:03.380 Those women who complain about that stuff are ruining it for the rest of us. 1.00

01:30:06.620 Most normal women like it. 1.00

01:30:08.400 They like chivalry.

01:30:09.760 So men out there, don't listen to that minority voice. 0.96

01:30:12.060 Listen to the rest of us who appreciate you treating us like you are gentlemen and we are ladies, while understanding that we are full, empowered ladies as well.

01:30:21.220 Okay, this is a good one.

01:30:23.540 If you're going to get drunk or high, do it in private and with female friends rather than in public or in mixed company.

01:30:28.660 This is basic safety.

01:30:30.280 More people need to be told this.

01:30:31.520 More young women need to be told this. 1.00

01:30:32.840 I went on Breakfast TV here in the UK when my book was first published and we spoke about that piece of advice.

01:30:39.080 And I got such a grilling from the hosts and there was so much out.

01:30:42.020 They were so outraged at the idea that I would suggest this.

01:30:44.120 I mean, bear in mind, I'm not saying don't drink in mixed company.

01:30:48.540 It's getting drunk.

01:30:49.860 It's incapacitating yourself, putting yourself at risk.

01:30:52.420 That's the thing that I think is advised.

01:30:54.760 So, yeah, I got such a grilling on TV.

01:30:56.480 And then as soon as I got home, I was inundated with emails, comments, tweets, whatever, from people saying yes, obviously.

01:31:02.460 And it was one of those things where actually the general view was 95% plus, yes, this is common sense.

01:31:08.800 And actually, this was considered completely normal even 20, 30 years ago.

01:31:13.060 The idea that, yeah, this was basic stuff that your mom would tell you to do, that your female friends would tell you to do for a reason. 0.91

01:31:20.340 Because obviously it's a bad idea to put yourself at risk when you're around people that you don't know.

01:31:27.360 Bad things happen when young women in that age group in particular get drunk out in public.

01:31:34.640 And by the way, bad things happen when young men in that age group get drunk out in public.

01:31:38.580 Quickly, don't use dating apps.

01:31:41.040 You write mutual friends can vet histories and punish bad behavior.

01:31:44.300 Dating apps can't.

01:31:45.880 You know, this happened sort of on the tail end of my dating life.

01:31:48.760 So I never had to deal with these apps.

01:31:50.240 But so many people do use them.

01:31:52.020 So what do you say to those who say, I don't have friends who can set me up or they've fallen down on the job.

01:31:56.180 This is my only way of meeting people.

01:31:57.840 I really think that we should be much more sort of generous with our friends about setting people up.

01:32:02.720 This idea of like going on a blind date with people, someone you've been set up with by friends, it seems really off-fashioned.

01:32:08.000 But like it's actually the, it's not just the best possible way to meet partners.

01:32:11.520 It's actually the best possible way to meet new friends as well.

01:32:13.500 Because you've got a sort of filter that's already been put in place since you're meeting people who are already like you're likely to get on with.

01:32:20.320 So the problem with apps is that you get a huge amount of choice, but it's low quality.

01:32:26.520 Okay.

01:32:27.340 Last for you, hold off on having sex with a new boyfriend for at least a few months.

01:32:30.760 Good way of discovering whether he's serious about you or just looking for a hookup. 0.96

01:32:33.760 Only have sex with a man if you think he would make a good father to your children. 1.00

01:32:37.400 I like that. 0.88

01:32:38.200 It's just a good rule of thumb in deciding whether he's worthy of your trust.

01:32:41.560 And last but not least, monogamous marriage is by far the most stable and reliable foundation on which to build a family.

01:32:51.160 That's really what's at the heart of the book and what's really pissed off your critics, Louise.

01:32:56.020 But truer words were never spoken.

01:32:58.640 Listen, thank you so much for being here, for sharing all of your research and your insights.

01:33:02.660 A lot, a lot of wisdom for such a young woman.

01:33:05.900 I appreciate you doing the work and letting us know what you found.

01:33:09.360 Thank you so much.

01:33:10.100 All right, all the best.

01:33:11.240 And again, the book is called The Case Against the Sexual Revolution.

01:33:14.960 And thanks to all of you for joining us today.

01:33:16.460 Tomorrow, our friends from The Ruthless Podcast are back with me for our first conversation since the 2022 midterms.

01:33:23.720 Don't miss that.

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The Megyn Kelly Show - November 29, 2022

Balenciaga's Gross Campaign, and Feminism's False Promise, with Louise Perry and Carrie Prejean Boller ｜ Ep. 443

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