The Megyn Kelly Show - Ben Shapiro Responds to Tucker Carlson, Plus Sydney Sweeney and Newsom, with Michael Knowles and Andrew Klavan

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00:00:30.180 When I got a great deal on a great gift at Winners, I started wondering,

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00:01:00.800 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:01:02.620 Live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:01:12.720 Hello!

00:01:13.660 God, it's so great to see you!

00:01:17.320 Woo!

00:01:17.720 Love you, Jacksonville.

00:01:23.480 Thank you so much for coming out tonight.

00:01:25.260 God, it's so fun seeing all of you.

00:01:27.440 You know, I was talking to people backstage about how I said I needed to get out on this

00:01:31.340 tour.

00:01:31.640 I needed to get out on the road.

00:01:32.580 I needed, like, to see you, and you needed to see me, and we needed to be together right

00:01:37.720 now.

00:01:37.980 Woo!

00:01:38.380 And it's been even better than I thought it was going to be.

00:01:42.860 It's such a feeling being up here and actually seeing the people who listen to the show and

00:01:46.220 make it possible for me to do the show every day, and that's all of you.

00:01:48.820 People say, oh, thank you so much for what you do.

00:01:50.920 And I say, thank you for making it possible for me to do a job I love and to set the record

00:01:55.780 straight on so many things.

00:01:56.860 I love you, too.

00:02:00.980 And listen, what's on my mind tonight is that we are making progress.

00:02:04.860 Okay, it was one year ago, almost exactly, that we were leading up to Election Day, right?

00:02:11.160 The polls were disturbingly close, and we weren't sure what was going to happen.

00:02:16.200 And what did we see in campaign 2024 on Team Dem?

00:02:19.780 We saw Oprah, right?

00:02:25.200 Yes, boo.

00:02:26.780 We saw a parade of celebrities come out, like rappers who are now, we know, are getting paid

00:02:31.940 big dollars to show up at her campaign rallies and endorse her.

00:02:34.860 And person after person, in every election, it could have been the one in 2024 with her

00:02:40.940 or with Obama earlier, the celebs always line up and they do their little thing and they

00:02:45.320 think they're relevant.

00:02:46.780 And the Julia Roberts ad, you know, where they showed the Republican wife, like, disobeying

00:02:51.240 her husband and, like, clicking it for Kamala.

00:02:53.880 They totally misunderstand our side of the aisle, right?

00:02:56.660 Like, we're going to get beaten by our husbands if we don't vote the way they want us to.

00:03:00.860 That is a true Democrats view of conservatives.

00:03:05.560 So there were celebrities everywhere doing this.

00:03:07.100 And I think on our team, we're like, yeah, we're used to this.

00:03:09.720 We don't care what they think.

00:03:11.080 Like, I guess only Democrats care what they think.

00:03:13.180 And Democrats did care what they thought not so long ago.

00:03:17.800 But they don't anymore.

00:03:18.840 And one of the great things about the internet is it's totally democratized, like, celebrity.

00:03:25.800 And we really don't give a shit what they say at all because they're ubiquitous, right?

00:03:30.820 And even the left is starting to feel that way.

00:03:34.600 And I'm going to give you two examples that have made me very happy.

00:03:37.900 Because in this past year, the left has realized that they don't have the power to move votes

00:03:44.240 on their side either anymore.

00:03:45.980 And these celebrities, it's wonderful, it's working just as it should, are shrinking away

00:03:50.800 from politics more and more and realizing they need to stay in their damn lane.

00:03:56.660 Right?

00:03:57.740 We're sick of them ruining our movies by coming out and showing their Trump derangement syndrome.

00:04:03.580 Why can't we watch a movie without knowing how much they hate us?

00:04:07.000 Right?

00:04:07.480 The left never has that problem.

00:04:09.060 Because even when you have somebody declared that they're conservative and they're an actor,

00:04:12.280 they're never nasty about it.

00:04:14.500 Like, they're sweet.

00:04:15.280 You know, maybe like a Dennis Quaid who's like, I really love the Gipper.

00:04:18.180 He was the best president of my lifetime and I'm going to star in Reagan.

00:04:20.620 That's as far as most of them go.

00:04:22.460 You know, occasionally get like the John Voight or the James Woods.

00:04:25.400 But that's a unicorn.

00:04:27.060 You know, when they're that strong and they come out and they really make the case.

00:04:30.040 More often, it's somebody who's like, I'm an independent.

00:04:32.280 We all know what that is.

00:04:33.080 So, but now we're starting to see the left get shamed.

00:04:37.800 The left celebrities get shamed out of being too outspoken.

00:04:41.720 I'm going to give you two examples.

00:04:43.040 I'm going to start with, I don't know if you saw, you know Jennifer Lawrence, right?

00:04:46.240 She's a huge star.

00:04:47.880 She gave an interview to the New York Times just this past weekend, I think it was.

00:04:51.420 And there was an extraordinary moment where, of course, they tried to get into her politics.

00:04:58.100 And she is left.

00:04:58.960 She's made that very clear.

00:05:00.900 And listen to how she answered.

00:05:02.600 I'm going to play a soundbite.

00:05:03.400 Watch this.

00:05:04.480 You have been politically outspoken in the past.

00:05:07.660 In the first Trump administration, you know, you had a lot to say.

00:05:12.180 I'm curious how you feel about talking out now.

00:05:16.840 I don't really know if I should.

00:05:20.360 No, you shouldn't.

00:05:21.100 I think like the first Trump administration was so wild.

00:05:27.200 And just how can we let this stand?

00:05:30.040 Like I felt like I was running around like a chicken with my head cut off.

00:05:35.140 But as we've learned, election after election, celebrities do not make a difference whatsoever on who people vote for.

00:05:47.500 And so then what am I doing?

00:05:49.720 I'm just sharing my opinion on something that's going to just add fuel to a fire that's ripping the country apart.

00:05:58.480 I mean, we are so divided.

00:06:03.000 Yes.

00:06:03.520 Guess who taught her that lesson?

00:06:07.700 All of you.

00:06:10.500 Honestly, it's like she realizes now, right?

00:06:13.040 It's, to steal a phrase, pissing into the wind when they come out.

00:06:16.780 And what do they do?

00:06:17.400 They hurt their own careers.

00:06:18.920 They embarrass themselves.

00:06:19.820 They alienate half the country.

00:06:21.080 And she goes on to say that maybe I'll just express my opinions through my art.

00:06:25.120 Thank you.

00:06:26.160 That's all we ever asked.

00:06:27.640 Then we can choose whether to go to that movie or not.

00:06:30.240 But, you know, it may be some woke thing that we think is terrible.

00:06:32.440 It may be some great thing.

00:06:33.460 But if we go to see something that is appealing to us as right-wing people or independent people, we don't want to be constantly thinking about how much you loathe us, Ben Affleck.

00:06:42.520 Right?

00:06:42.960 So, she got the lesson.

00:06:46.200 And then just today, there was another moment with Sidney Sweeney.

00:06:52.900 You've heard of her.

00:06:53.840 I'm sure the men in the audience are, have you ever heard of Sidney Sweeney?

00:06:56.980 Yeah.

00:06:57.140 And I'm going to save, I'm going to save the Sidney Sweeney moment for when my guests come out.

00:07:02.200 And we'll talk about why it's equally encouraging.

00:07:05.220 All right?

00:07:05.500 So, we, the point is we are winning.

00:07:07.080 These loudmouth celebrities have gotten the message, sit down, shut up, and act.

00:07:12.240 That's it.

00:07:13.220 Right?

00:07:13.580 We're not listening to you anymore.

00:07:14.860 And the great democratizer of the internet has taught them that them being ubiquitous has been bad for their political power, but great for the promo of their careers, and they have to choose.

00:07:25.360 So, right on us.

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00:08:40.320 So you guys know our guests tonight are Andrew Klavan, Michael Knowles, and Ben Shapiro.

00:08:50.380 And we're going to kick it off in no particular order, though, with Andrew Klavan, who I know you all know and who needs no introduction.

00:08:57.920 But let's give him one anyway.

00:08:59.180 Take a look at this.

00:08:59.960 Trigger warning, I'm Andrew Klavan, and this is The Andrew Klavan Show.

00:09:07.880 My fight has been to get people to see that they're being lied to every day.

00:09:13.800 Feminism raised some really interesting issues, really important issues, but now it's just leftism in a skirt.

00:09:19.120 There is a really 0% excuse to talk to a third grader about his sexuality if you are not his parent.

00:09:26.580 They talk about him looking for retribution, but really, it's only justice.

00:09:31.340 The holy crap debate.

00:09:33.760 We finally beat Medicare.

00:09:36.260 Holy crap.

00:09:38.000 You can have all kinds of different opinions.

00:09:40.260 You're smart people.

00:09:41.900 We're not going to agree on everything.

00:09:43.360 Luckily, I'm so old that before you can screw everything up, I'm going to be having lunch with Jesus, all right?

00:10:04.900 I love the fire.

00:10:06.380 Do you love the fire?

00:10:07.720 It makes me think of Charlie.

00:10:09.560 He loved it so much.

00:10:12.300 Great to have you.

00:10:13.200 It's so nice to see you.

00:10:14.500 Oh, my God, we never see each other in person.

00:10:17.100 This is a thrill.

00:10:18.040 It's the nature of our industry now.

00:10:19.680 It's all over satellite.

00:10:21.260 Everybody's on TV.

00:10:22.100 So it's been so fun for me to actually see people.

00:10:24.180 All right, so I have so much I want to go over with you.

00:10:27.580 We've talked many times about your religious background.

00:10:30.660 Yeah.

00:10:31.060 And I have questions, because I've been searching on my own faith for a while now, but especially since Charlie died.

00:10:37.480 Yeah.

00:10:38.060 Have you guys, have you felt more faithful since Charlie died?

00:10:41.240 Yeah.

00:10:41.560 Right?

00:10:42.880 I think a lot of us are, like, having a renewed faith and a renewed search for what it is.

00:10:47.360 I mean, I've always been a Catholic, but...

00:10:48.840 Charlie Kirk matters!

00:10:50.300 Yes.

00:10:50.840 Charlie Kirk matters!

00:10:52.400 Oh, Charlie Kirk does matter and still matters.

00:10:56.200 So you're somebody who, you have an interesting background.

00:10:58.920 You were born Jewish, you were raised in a secular Jewish family, and then you converted to Christianity at 54?

00:11:06.360 49.

00:11:06.960 49.

00:11:07.200 Okay, 49 years old.

00:11:09.120 And you speak about your faith so beautifully.

00:11:11.940 I've learned a lot about the Christian faith from you, actually.

00:11:14.120 And you are like Charlie in that you can look through any political lens and infuse your faith into what we're seeing.

00:11:20.440 So, first of all, just tell us about how that transition, that conversion, happened to you.

00:11:24.940 Well, it's a 35-year story, so I'll have to condense it quite a lot.

00:11:28.240 But it really had to do with fiction, in a way.

00:11:31.920 When I was 19, I read the book Crime and Punishment by Fyodor Dostoevsky, which is about a murder.

00:11:38.980 And it was just at that moment when the moral relativists were coming up into the colleges and teaching you that one culture is just as good as another.

00:11:47.460 Who knows what's right or wrong?

00:11:48.740 You think one thing is right, I think another thing is right.

00:11:51.460 And I read that book, and there's a brutal murder in it of two women, one of them a retarded woman.

00:11:56.540 And it's just so pitiful, I thought, no, some things are wrong.

00:12:00.440 Some things are wrong, and they'd be wrong even on a planet where everything, everybody said they were right.

00:12:05.800 And that kept me from falling into the pit of moral relativism.

00:12:09.560 But it stuck me with the idea that if there is a right and wrong, there must be a supreme good.

00:12:16.280 And that supreme good has to be a consciousness, because only consciousness is good.

00:12:22.000 Well, you're applauding, but it's hard to work in my business if you believe these things.

00:12:26.540 You know, Andrew's a very successful author, writer, and screenwriter.

00:12:30.860 And so slowly that worked in my head, and I couldn't quite accept it.

00:12:34.900 And I had a terrible, when I was in my 20s, I had a terrible breakdown.

00:12:39.840 Suicidal, depressed, just absolutely at the end of my rope.

00:12:43.440 And I couldn't reach out to God then, because I was so stubborn.

00:12:48.180 I thought, well, then it's just a crutch, and I'm just in pain.

00:12:51.400 But through what I truly believe is a miracle, I found a shrink who actually healed me,

00:12:57.500 which may be the only time this has ever happened in psychiatric history.

00:13:00.480 And I became, really, within the course of two years, I went from being suicidally depressed

00:13:07.880 to being a very happy, kind of jolly person, doing really well in my career,

00:13:12.760 doing what I always loved doing, which is writing novels.

00:13:15.720 And then I thought, well, now I've got no excuse.

00:13:18.420 And I started to pray.

00:13:20.520 And prayer transformed my life.

00:13:23.280 And this is what I always tell people, you know.

00:13:25.100 And people always say to me, like, you know, how do I connect with God?

00:13:30.280 I thought, call him.

00:13:31.220 His lines are open, you know.

00:13:32.480 It's like, I mean, talk to him.

00:13:34.840 And I started out with a three-word prayer, which was, thank you, Lord,

00:13:38.240 because I had come from such a horrible place in my life to such a beautiful place.

00:13:43.000 And then it got to be, like, 15 minutes, 20 minutes, sometimes half an hour,

00:13:47.140 sometimes an hour of prayer every day.

00:13:49.440 And at the end of five years, I was now a screenwriter and a novelist,

00:13:54.680 and I was driving my BMW convertible in the hills of Santa Barbara, complete jerk.

00:14:02.740 Sounds kind of awesome.

00:14:04.440 And I said to God, you know, I said, gee, you've given me everything.

00:14:09.360 You've just transformed everything.

00:14:11.620 And you're God, and I'm just a schmo.

00:14:14.060 What can I do for you?

00:14:16.100 And it came back to me instantaneously, you should be baptized.

00:14:19.660 And I'm driving my car, and out loud I went, you've got to be kidding me.

00:14:23.500 Were you attending Catholic Mass?

00:14:25.140 What were you going to at the time?

00:14:26.640 I was Episcopalian, which is no longer a religion, but at the time it was.

00:14:31.580 He's not.

00:14:32.440 He's definitely not.

00:14:33.440 Now I'm an Anglo-Catholic, but then I was an Episcopalian.

00:14:36.300 And it took me five months.

00:14:39.120 I started to argue with God about this, and I thought, I can't really believe in these miracles and this stuff.

00:14:43.600 And I went back, and I had read the Bible all my life because as a novelist I knew it was the center of all art, and all Western art is based on the novel in one way or another.

00:14:52.780 And when I went back and read it for the first time as if it might be true, I thought, oh, that makes sense.

00:14:58.620 And listen, I'm not a literalist.

00:15:00.340 I don't think every word is exactly what it means, some of it's poetry, some of it's legends, some of it's all kinds of, but it's all the word of God.

00:15:06.660 And when I read it that way, it all made sense to me.

00:15:10.060 And I knew that it was going to ruin my Hollywood career, which it ultimately did.

00:15:15.180 And I thought it was going to start a terrible fight with my father, who had once told me if I ever thought of converting, he would disown me.

00:15:23.420 And we had sort of made a separate piece, and I thought, well, I'm going to have to tell him because I give interviews and he'll see it.

00:15:29.340 And he came to visit me.

00:15:30.440 I was living in California.

00:15:31.960 He and my mother were living in New York, and they came to visit me.

00:15:34.460 And he walked in the door, and he said, I'm seeing double.

00:15:37.820 I have to go home.

00:15:39.700 And this was a joke in my family.

00:15:42.260 My father could never take a vacation without having an emergency that caused him to go home.

00:15:46.600 So I laughed it off, but he was, in fact, had his final illness.

00:15:51.060 And so I couldn't tell him at that point.

00:15:53.600 It would have just broken his heart.

00:15:55.240 So I spent a long time going back to New York, training with this priest, this Episcopal priest I knew, and then visiting my father, who was fading away.

00:16:03.880 And he died in a week that was both Easter and Passover, which was very meaningful and sad.

00:16:10.140 And then I came back for his memorial and left the memorial and went to the church and was baptized.

00:16:15.280 Oh, wow.

00:16:16.360 Yeah, it was like a...

00:16:17.240 But how did you go to Jesus?

00:16:20.360 Because you kept reading after that Old Testament, and that's a big shift when you read the second part and say, that's for me as a Jew.

00:16:27.420 Well, the thing was, I knew a lot about both Testaments because I was writing novels, and it informed the way I thought.

00:16:35.500 And I knew that Jesus was the major character in all of Western civilization.

00:16:40.640 And the idea that we can't know God until we see him, and all we can know of God is what we see, is what really turned the key for me.

00:16:52.060 That this was the God that I could talk to face to face.

00:16:55.220 And when I read the New Testament, it occurred to me that even if nothing like that had ever happened, everything that was in it was true.

00:17:06.760 And that's just not the way things work.

00:17:08.660 When everything you read is true, it's true.

00:17:11.280 You know, I mean, it's not an illusion.

00:17:13.580 I don't believe that people are living in hallucinations unless they're literally insane.

00:17:17.720 So I thought, no, this is what I believe.

00:17:20.040 And it was just amazing.

00:17:21.080 I mean, I had been baptized three weeks, and my wife, who knows me, back and forth, down to the ground, turned to me, and she said, you're a totally different person.

00:17:29.060 The serenity is just, it's insane.

00:17:32.360 Wow.

00:17:33.080 And the joy.

00:17:34.320 And then you got into political commentary, and that serenity went out the window.

00:17:38.320 It's not where you come from, serenity.

00:17:39.960 What was I thinking?

00:17:40.460 What was it?

00:17:40.780 It ended my, that ended my Hollywood career like that.

00:17:42.960 So how have you been taking in the increasing rise of Muslim politicians, and many of whom are connected to radical Islamists who are saying openly that this is part of a plan to take control in American cities?

00:17:58.820 Yeah, I'm not a, you know, I wrote a novel when I was 25 in which I referred to my generation as holiday Jews.

00:18:05.820 And the reason for that was that the Holocaust was not that long ago, and people knew what it was and remembered it.

00:18:12.260 And so everybody was nice to the Jews, just like people were nice to gays after AIDS.

00:18:16.140 You know, they understood, oh, yeah, this is bad, and these are human beings, and we ought to love them a little bit.

00:18:22.120 And the holiday is over.

00:18:24.720 And I see this in a lot of places.

00:18:27.600 You know, your friend Tucker Carlson, I think, is expressing it.

00:18:30.140 I think that Candace Owens is expressing it.

00:18:32.460 I think, and I think that Islam, it's not individual Muslim people, because there are many lovely individual Muslim people, but as a religion, once they take over a majority, it grows up there.

00:18:44.160 And what I know as a Jew who is a Christian is that these are brother religions.

00:18:49.880 It's, St. Paul said that all of Israel will be saved, and we are temporarily separated from one another.

00:18:56.120 The Jews who don't believe in Christ and Christians were temporarily separated, but we will come together.

00:19:01.060 And so that hatred, to me, is spiritual.

00:19:05.200 You know, you said that I always talk about God, because I think that God is the central reality of life.

00:19:11.340 And since we...

00:19:13.060 And I think everything is about God.

00:19:18.700 It really is.

00:19:19.620 And if you think about it, if there's a God, and spoiler alert, there is,

00:19:23.900 then for about 200 years of secular life, all of our thinkers, all of our most famous thinkers, all of our most famous authors, all of our most famous painters,

00:19:34.100 have been living in a delusion about the most important thing in the world.

00:19:38.120 And I think that, you know, the Jews are the vehicle by which God re-entered the world after the fall.

00:19:44.860 I think they are the vehicle by which he created the Messiah for all people.

00:19:49.420 And I think that when you hate them, you are slapping God in the face.

00:19:52.720 You're basically spitting in his eye, which is a bad idea.

00:19:55.840 So you're not feeling great about Globalize the Intifada, Mom Donnie.

00:19:59.480 Yeah, Globalize the Intifada.

00:20:01.360 It sounds like it might make a good song, but it's a philosophy I'm against.

00:20:05.000 Like, it's shocking to me that New York City did what it did.

00:20:07.740 It's shocking to me that they would elevate a man like that with the connections he has to this post.

00:20:12.060 And, you know, he's not alone.

00:20:13.300 You know, there was that Omar Fateh that almost won as mayor of Minneapolis.

00:20:16.860 And, you know, Dearborn is now run by a Muslim mayor and is almost majority Muslim.

00:20:23.480 Minneapolis, too.

00:20:24.360 Like, with all due respect to people who are Muslim, I don't think this is a good thing.

00:20:29.380 I don't think this is consistent with Western values.

00:20:31.520 And I see these videos online all the time of them saying, like, we have six kids and the white people are having one and this is part of the plan.

00:20:40.300 And they're not right.

00:20:41.500 They're not wrong.

00:20:42.180 Like, I mean, read any leftist paper talking about how liberals don't want to have children anymore, the environment.

00:20:47.360 Maybe now they'll listen to Bill Gates, who's finally reversed himself on his environmental catastrophism.

00:20:52.200 And they'll start to actually reproduce and have children.

00:20:54.260 I think it goes beyond that, though.

00:20:56.720 I think that there is one of the things that shocked me coming when I came to the Daily Wire, I was working with a lot of guys who were much younger than me.

00:21:03.040 And one of the things I was shocked by was the hostility toward women.

00:21:06.860 Guys, you know, and guys and girls always talk about each other, rolling their eyes a little bit.

00:21:11.420 You know, I've been an athlete.

00:21:12.440 At the Daily Wire?

00:21:13.740 Everywhere.

00:21:14.380 Everywhere.

00:21:14.820 What are you saying?

00:21:15.420 No, no, we all do this, you know, women, men, you know, all that stuff.

00:21:19.720 And, you know, I've been an athlete most of my life and I've been in a lot of locker rooms and you hear the way people talk about women.

00:21:25.460 But in my generation, it was always with incredible love.

00:21:28.800 Oh, women, you know, they're kind of nuts, but we love them, you know.

00:21:33.280 All that was gone.

00:21:35.200 I mean, is he wrong?

00:21:36.900 Before being honest.

00:21:38.560 But all that was gone with the young people.

00:21:40.600 They were showing me pictures of Andrew Tate saying, you know, you can dominate and destroy women.

00:21:46.120 This guy's a pimp.

00:21:47.520 You know, that's a bad thing.

00:21:49.320 You know, pimps are bad.

00:21:49.880 It's a reaction, right?

00:21:50.600 It's a reaction.

00:21:50.940 It's a reaction, right.

00:21:52.160 And I truly believe, because I do believe everything is centered in God, that there is something about women, women's bodies, women's power to create life that is deeply connected to the holy and deeply connected to the spiritual.

00:22:06.300 Even God, when he wanted to become a human, had to have a mother, you know.

00:22:09.940 I mean, the first thing he did, picked out a mom, you know.

00:22:13.520 And so when you are alienated from God, I think you're ultimately going to become alienated from femininity, from motherhood, from all the things that make life work.

00:22:23.000 The only Western country where the population is growing, Israel.

00:22:27.080 The only one.

00:22:28.180 And that's because there's still this kind of tradition going on there, even among the non-believers, where you increase and multiply, you know.

00:22:36.760 And I think that we...

00:22:37.580 Better get to it.

00:22:38.200 We better get to it, yeah.

00:22:39.200 I played that clip, I don't know if you saw it, of Jennifer Lawrence refusing, really, to sort of re-evaluating her foray into politics.

00:22:50.660 And I really see that as a bit of a watershed moment, right?

00:22:54.540 I mean, like, where Hollywood is going, you might be able to go back.

00:22:59.460 I mean, do you think they've learned their lesson?

00:23:01.420 You know, I have been getting calls.

00:23:04.040 I'm worried about...

00:23:05.380 I'm less worried about people's opinions, because, as you were saying, I believe everybody should be allowed to express his opinion.

00:23:10.700 I don't believe anybody should be canceled or silenced.

00:23:12.980 But I'm much more worried about the system that's in place that keeps any traditional values of making it onto the screen.

00:23:21.980 You cannot do it.

00:23:23.540 And it's an entire social system.

00:23:26.040 When I worked in Hollywood, we had a secret organization called Friends of Abe.

00:23:30.280 That's right.

00:23:30.680 Yeah.

00:23:30.980 I know a lot of guys in that.

00:23:31.940 Yeah.

00:23:32.320 It was Gary Sumise.

00:23:33.560 It's like an underground organization for conservatives.

00:23:35.740 Right.

00:23:36.400 And it was like, you went to these meetings, and it was like an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting.

00:23:41.320 You'd come in and say, hi, my name is Andrew.

00:23:44.080 I'm a conservative.

00:23:44.900 Hi, Andrew.

00:23:45.920 You know, it's like that.

00:23:46.940 And it was terrible.

00:23:49.760 And then you would go into a meeting where you were trying to sell a script.

00:23:53.580 And the first words, that was George W. Bush days, mostly, and Obama days.

00:23:58.440 The first words out of the guy's mouth would be, sit down.

00:24:00.720 Isn't George W. Bush an idiot?

00:24:01.880 And because I'm me, I would always say, I don't think so.

00:24:06.180 And it's like, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

00:24:08.560 And that is basically speaking up about the war, the movies that were being made that showed

00:24:13.120 our military as bad guys while our military were being shot at in Afghanistan and Iraq.

00:24:18.820 I started to write and say, you know, this is wrong.

00:24:20.740 No matter what you think about the war, it's wrong to make these movies because they're

00:24:24.860 propaganda for the enemy.

00:24:26.100 And my phone turned off.

00:24:27.780 Like, I thought somebody had unplugged it.

00:24:29.460 Wow.

00:24:29.900 No, they're a nasty industry.

00:24:33.220 But it's reminded me of what one of our questioners asked, you know, a young girl talking about

00:24:37.500 how do I bring up politics when my friend is bringing up her politics.

00:24:41.460 And I do think there's an opportunity.

00:24:43.180 I think in today's day and age, almost 2026 America, it would be so extraordinary if a

00:24:48.680 young screenwriter went into that pitch meeting and was asked a question like that and then

00:24:53.320 responded by saying, well, I'm a conservative, so I see things differently.

00:24:57.140 I did it all the time.

00:24:58.220 I did it all the time.

00:24:59.060 But I kind of think they've been brought to heel a bit.

00:25:05.080 They understand their Wokapalooza movie extravaganza was a nightmare.

00:25:10.320 It failed.

00:25:11.340 They lost money, which is their true God in Hollywood.

00:25:14.620 And that I think they're conservative curious now.

00:25:17.440 There's two places.

00:25:18.940 Because they want our dollars.

00:25:20.540 There's two places where this is true.

00:25:22.340 Apple TV, of all places, they have a sort of white man's lane, you know, where suddenly

00:25:27.460 they'll put, like, you know, they'll put, like, George Clooney in a movie and he'll go, like,

00:25:30.500 oh, okay, you know, I'll watch, and it'll be, like, an action film or something.

00:25:33.420 Meanwhile, like, he's not our representative.

00:25:35.880 No.

00:25:36.000 Pick someone else.

00:25:36.600 No, but the movie will be pretty good, you know.

00:25:39.500 And the other is Christian.

00:25:41.080 Vince Vaughn.

00:25:41.860 Yeah, Vince Vaughn.

00:25:42.700 He's great.

00:25:43.080 But the other is Christian filmmaking, which I hated for a long time, because I hate these

00:25:49.080 happy, smiley Christian movies, you know.

00:25:51.500 I mean, it's a movie, you know, our God.

00:25:53.500 Who doesn't hate happy and smiley?

00:25:55.840 Well, our God got killed, you know.

00:25:57.840 It's a tragic religion.

00:25:59.580 And I used to think these movies were terrible, but then I realized something, that they bring

00:26:07.460 an audience, people like them, and when you bring an audience, that attracts talent.

00:26:11.460 And now you have things like The Chosen, which is really creative.

00:26:15.320 Yeah, it's excellent.

00:26:17.120 And Sound of Freedom, which was a very, yeah.

00:26:22.040 And, I mean, the New York Times, Sound of Freedom is about the child, you know, selling children

00:26:27.060 into sex slavery.

00:26:28.320 It had the New York Times going, well, you know, these conservatives hate sex slavery.

00:26:32.440 What's wrong?

00:26:34.980 Thanks.

00:26:36.000 But that's because the audience attracts the talent.

00:26:39.180 And, you know, when the novel started out in the 18th century, it was supposed to be

00:26:44.260 for, you know, women, you go away, women, and read your novels.

00:26:48.080 And then Jane Austen came along and took the form and turned it into an art, because that's

00:26:52.260 where the audience was.

00:26:53.600 And that's, and her talent brings in Charles Dickens and all the other guys who come in

00:26:57.740 and made the great age of the novel.

00:27:00.300 And so, building an audience is a good thing.

00:27:03.100 Yeah.

00:27:03.220 And I think the Christians have done that, and I think that if conservatives will just

00:27:07.880 get past their hurdles that are in front of them and start making stuff themselves and

00:27:14.800 start making it on the internet and start using AI to make it and start peddling it any

00:27:19.640 way they can figure out, I think we can beat them.

00:27:22.100 Listen, we beat them in the media, right?

00:27:24.380 I mean, we destroyed them.

00:27:25.900 And it was just, it was us, it was guys, little people.

00:27:28.940 That's exactly right.

00:27:29.480 Like the revolution, shooting at them from behind rock.

00:27:31.520 It doesn't even have to be, you don't necessarily even have to make the film, although if you

00:27:34.420 can, great.

00:27:35.140 But you can go patronize films like Top Gun Maverick, which are not woke, which are pro-America,

00:27:42.700 which have somebody who, I mean, I think we can safely assume Tom Cruise is a Democrat,

00:27:46.860 a leftist Democrat.

00:27:47.500 He was very, very pro-COVID lockdowns and mandates.

00:27:50.380 But who cares?

00:27:51.640 His movie was great and was right down the middle.

00:27:53.940 He was not propagandizing us.

00:27:55.840 We can support those films and send a message to Hollywood.

00:27:58.140 You do that, we're open-minded.

00:28:00.000 Our side always is open-minded.

00:28:01.460 We have to be.

00:28:02.100 Otherwise, we could take in no TV, no movies, no news, no sports.

00:28:06.160 We couldn't work in corporate America.

00:28:07.860 That's the beauty of being us.

00:28:09.180 Okay.

00:28:09.780 Kevin Sorbo.

00:28:11.360 Great guy.

00:28:12.200 Yes, Kevin Sorbo.

00:28:12.820 Great guy.

00:28:13.360 There's a bunch of them.

00:28:13.980 I mean, honestly, they're coming out more and more now because they feel emboldened.

00:28:18.220 All right, I have to leave it there for now.

00:28:19.960 Thank you so much.

00:28:20.800 It's wonderful to see you.

00:28:21.840 Oh, it's a pleasure.

00:28:22.460 Thank you very much.

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00:29:45.280 Michael Knowles doesn't give a shit if you don't like him.

00:29:49.900 He says all the most incendiary things.

00:29:54.200 It's hard to make my jaw drop, and Michael Knowles does it regularly.

00:29:58.040 And he does it by just being totally, unapologetically, fearlessly honest,

00:30:04.800 but with such intellect behind the points that it really is like chewing rubies in your mouth

00:30:10.720 when you repeat his words and hear him speak.

00:30:13.220 Here's a little quick intro.

00:30:18.640 Outrage boiling over at the University of Buffalo.

00:30:21.700 Hundreds of students and community members gathered in protest.

00:30:25.140 Do you have anything else to say?

00:30:28.600 Hello, I'm Michael Knowles.

00:30:29.840 I'm a conservative podcast host.

00:30:31.700 I am surrounded by 20 LGBTQ plus activists.

00:30:36.640 I'm gay married.

00:30:37.980 Who?

00:30:38.380 Right?

00:30:38.780 Like, you're not really married.

00:30:40.920 I'm sorry.

00:30:41.520 I'm going to outright call you a fascist.

00:30:43.220 Oh, no.

00:30:44.260 Permanently banned by TikTok.

00:30:46.060 Every time you come on this show, Michael, you're in trouble.

00:30:48.040 What'd you do?

00:30:49.020 What did you do?

00:30:50.180 I'm always in trouble.

00:30:51.220 Plenty of those white conservative men that you like so much seem quite happy.

00:30:54.900 Let's take a look at this clip.

00:30:56.740 Joy Reid.

00:30:57.620 She has just been canned.

00:30:59.660 Kicked to the side of the road.

00:31:01.460 Her show is over.

00:31:03.280 Okay, well, we've got Michael there.

00:31:04.780 Michael, anything you want to say to Joy?

00:31:06.740 Joy, very nice to meet you.

00:31:08.200 Now there's no longer a market for that absolutely vile content.

00:31:12.060 And I think that's good for the culture broadly.

00:31:14.040 And now we can all chat on Pierce's show.

00:31:15.440 We build, they destroy.

00:31:19.700 That has been true since the terms left and right entered into politics during the French

00:31:24.560 Revolution.

00:31:25.240 If they want to tear it down and knock it down, let them try their very best.

00:31:28.980 Pay them no heed.

00:31:29.980 We're going to keep moving forward.

00:31:31.400 Megan, did you say talking to me is like chewing rubies?

00:31:55.260 Yes.

00:31:56.260 I want that in my Twitter bio.

00:31:58.060 That's really good.

00:31:59.240 I like that.

00:31:59.980 You take all the thoughts I have in my head and make them sound so much more eloquent and

00:32:04.200 informed.

00:32:05.180 It's one of the many things I love about you.

00:32:07.020 One of the first bonding moments Michael and I had, and you guys will understand why this

00:32:11.160 was personal, is you were on Fox News, you said something totally reasonable about Greta

00:32:15.660 Thunberg, and then Fox canceled you and you were never allowed to come back on.

00:32:20.280 That did happen.

00:32:21.240 I was on Fox and I was asked about Greta Thunberg, St. Greta of the Blessed Sailboat, who was,

00:32:29.500 you're familiar with her.

00:32:30.780 Okay, for those who don't know, she is a truant who thought that the sun monster was going

00:32:35.680 to kill us all.

00:32:36.760 And so she sailed a boat back and forth with like private jets flying overhead, whatever.

00:32:40.780 So anyway, I said, the girl was 16, 17 or something, and I said, I thought it was wrong

00:32:46.560 that the left would exploit a girl who was mentally ill, because her mother wrote a whole

00:32:51.960 book about how she had these mental illnesses, and I said, that's wrong to do, and you shouldn't

00:32:56.120 exploit kids for politics.

00:32:57.540 And then they canceled me for that.

00:33:00.460 Fox News decided Michael Knowles was too controversial because of that comment.

00:33:04.520 I remember DMing you saying, what utter bullshit.

00:33:08.400 I appreciated that.

00:33:09.460 So wrong.

00:33:10.240 And a beautiful friendship was born from that point forward.

00:33:13.200 By the way, that's the only good thing that's come out of Greta Thunberg's activism, is our

00:33:16.780 friendship.

00:33:17.600 That's it.

00:33:18.100 Thank you, Greta.

00:33:19.880 She's way off of that cause now.

00:33:21.600 Now you know she's a globalized-the-intifada type.

00:33:24.920 Yeah, there's no more money in the sun monster, so she's got to put on the keffia.

00:33:28.920 That's more valuable.

00:33:29.180 They switch it like that.

00:33:30.340 Like that.

00:33:31.100 It's amazing, right?

00:33:32.540 So you were born and raised in New York City.

00:33:35.680 I was raised in the suburbs.

00:33:38.220 I'm a suburban man.

00:33:39.380 Though I guess I lived, when I was really little, I was in the city, and I lived in the city

00:33:42.640 later on.

00:33:43.760 And after what occurred on Tuesday, I don't think I'm ever going to live in the city again.

00:33:48.520 Yeah, I know.

00:33:50.620 I lived in Manhattan for 17 years.

00:33:53.180 I can't say I'm totally shocked by what they did, because they did elect Bill de Blasio

00:33:56.880 twice, who is truly an idiot.

00:34:01.000 I don't think Zoran Mamdami is an idiot, but Bill de Blasio is dumb as a donkey.

00:34:06.520 Megan, I fear that Bill de Blasio is like Winston Churchill and Ronald Reagan combined, compared

00:34:13.140 to Zoran Mamdami.

00:34:14.180 Oh, God, I think this guy's clever, and I'm a little fearful of how clever he is.

00:34:20.120 What do you make of his assent?

00:34:21.980 A lot of people asked me when Zoran was running, they said, Michael, isn't this terrible that

00:34:27.500 a Muslim is going to be the mayor of New York City?

00:34:29.980 And I said, we should be so lucky if he were actually a Muslim.

00:34:33.300 Look, I understand Christendom's had a little conflict with Islam for about 1,400 years now,

00:34:39.220 so it's a tough situation.

00:34:40.820 However, at least if he were actually Muslim, I could speak to the guy.

00:34:45.080 He would believe in God, he would believe in a moral order, he would believe in an ordered

00:34:48.760 society.

00:34:49.640 We could have a conversation.

00:34:50.640 It wouldn't be good, but we could have a conversation.

00:34:52.460 I fear it's worse than that.

00:34:53.980 I fear when you look at the Muslim communists, Zoran Mamdami, he leans a little more on the

00:34:58.680 communist side.

00:34:59.720 I think he is a cringe millennial leftist who is every one of your worst classmates at university,

00:35:06.860 he is like that guy, and he is going to destroy New York City.

00:35:11.740 Yep, I know.

00:35:12.900 It's happening, and that's what they voted for, and we're all going to have to sit by

00:35:15.780 and actually watch it.

00:35:18.240 What does it say, though, about where the Democrat Party is?

00:35:20.700 I mean, do you think he is the future?

00:35:22.720 When they asked Hakeem Jeffries that, he said no, but Zoran Mamdani won by huge margins,

00:35:30.760 and if you don't think there are other Democrats in other cities right now saying that's the way

00:35:34.820 to win elections, you're wrong.

00:35:36.600 Who else would the future be?

00:35:38.220 It's not Mrs. Pelosi.

00:35:40.320 After a very brief 64-year political career, Nancy Pelosi is retiring, it seems.

00:35:46.800 Did you hear that news?

00:35:47.900 She's not going to run for re-election.

00:35:49.460 She's 85.

00:35:51.100 I don't want to violate any SEC rules or anything, but if you are invested in the Nancy Pelosi

00:35:56.980 tracking stocks, sure, get out, get out right now.

00:36:00.920 They're going to drop.

00:36:02.140 Just like she does.

00:36:03.000 That's right.

00:36:03.600 So is she the future?

00:36:06.260 Is Schumer the future?

00:36:07.040 No.

00:36:07.760 Kamala Harris, the former future president, was asked about this.

00:36:11.640 Who's the future of the party?

00:36:13.020 Do you have any leaders?

00:36:15.260 Because for the first time in at least 25 years, there is no leading candidate for president.

00:36:20.280 The Democrats in 2000-2004, the leading candidate with 25% of the vote at this time in the cycle

00:36:26.860 was Al Gore.

00:36:28.560 After that, it was Hillary Clinton.

00:36:30.080 After that, it was Joe Biden.

00:36:31.100 There was always someone who had this role.

00:36:33.120 There's no one right now.

00:36:34.760 And Kamala was asked about this.

00:36:36.540 And she said, oh.

00:36:38.520 You know, and she kind of giggled and coconuts fell out of the sky.

00:36:42.220 And then she said, and then she said, of course we have a future.

00:36:47.840 I mean, we have Zoran Mamdani.

00:36:51.260 She named him.

00:36:52.040 We have Jasmine Crockett.

00:36:54.060 Jasmine Crockett.

00:36:55.040 Can you imagine?

00:36:55.740 We have AOC, whoever.

00:36:57.440 And so, you know, you got it from the horse's mouth or some part of the horse.

00:37:01.120 They're saying that this is the future of the Democrats.

00:37:04.900 And I believe her.

00:37:05.520 By the way, Zoran Mamdani cannot be president.

00:37:08.940 He was born in Uganda, and he's Ugandan.

00:37:12.360 Like, he cannot be president.

00:37:13.420 And never stop Barack Obama.

00:37:14.740 I'm kidding.

00:37:15.440 I'm kidding.

00:37:16.260 Don't clip that.

00:37:17.420 Don't clip that.

00:37:19.800 You'll get canceled again.

00:37:23.600 Who's smarter?

00:37:25.400 Karine Jean-Pierre or Kamala Harris?

00:37:27.300 I will have you know, and I have this on good authority, Karine Jean-Pierre is a black

00:37:36.100 queer woman.

00:37:37.040 No.

00:37:37.860 Yes.

00:37:38.520 No.

00:37:39.080 I heard that on TV.

00:37:40.220 How do you know?

00:37:41.220 I heard it many times from Karine Jean-Pierre.

00:37:44.260 So, it's a tricky battle.

00:37:47.700 I mean, maybe she's like a fox, that Karine Jean-Pierre.

00:37:51.760 She held that job the whole time, and there was no actual president the whole time.

00:37:55.400 So, Karine Jean-Pierre, effectively, might have been the president for like four years,

00:37:58.620 three years.

00:37:59.660 Do you view Kamala Harris as an intellect?

00:38:05.420 You know, St. Thomas Aquinas shows us that all human beings are made up of, you know,

00:38:11.440 matter and intellect.

00:38:13.560 You know, we have will and intellect, and part of that is memory and part of that.

00:38:16.440 So, inasmuch as she is a human being, I suppose I grudgingly have to admit that she

00:38:22.880 might have some intellect.

00:38:24.040 But that actually, that's the first thing that's made me doubt Thomas Aquinas ever in

00:38:27.880 my entire life.

00:38:28.880 So, I don't know.

00:38:31.440 Same.

00:38:32.800 You had an interesting opinion recently on Sydney Sweeney.

00:38:37.680 Now, we talked on the show about the dress she wore.

00:38:41.260 Well, yeah.

00:38:42.640 Did you like the dress?

00:38:45.840 Split of opinion, maybe.

00:38:47.460 So, I came out against it.

00:38:49.500 I love her.

00:38:50.180 I think she's great.

00:38:50.740 She's very brave, but I didn't like the dress because I thought it's, you went too far.

00:38:56.200 You know, and it was Allie Beth Stuckey on the show that day who said, can we draw the

00:38:59.660 line at Areola?

00:39:01.200 Like, we're all for titillation.

00:39:03.160 We love the return of actual women, you know, to these events and as the headliners and so

00:39:07.860 on.

00:39:07.980 But like, headliner good, headlights not good.

00:39:12.880 You know, there should be some modesty.

00:39:15.020 But you had an interesting take on why the dress actually was kind of conservative in

00:39:20.340 a way.

00:39:21.520 It's a Straussian reading.

00:39:23.200 It's an esoteric, I'm not recommending, I would never send my daughter out in the Sydney

00:39:27.460 Sweeney dress.

00:39:28.280 I do not recommend it generally.

00:39:30.340 However, I have to point out, what was the event that she wore it to?

00:39:36.100 The event was called the Power of Women Gala.

00:39:39.160 And what do we know about Sydney Sweeney?

00:39:40.920 We know that she's a registered Republican, reportedly.

00:39:43.740 Love that.

00:39:44.560 We know that just today some liberal journalist was trying to bait her into all these stupid

00:39:49.640 answers about her jeans ad and she just completely shut it down.

00:39:52.960 She's got better message discipline than the entire Republican Party put together.

00:39:56.040 We know that in a culture of androgynous they-thems with crazy hair and 15 septum piercings, that

00:40:05.000 Sydney Sweeney looks normal, like a really, really, really pretty normal person.

00:40:10.740 And so I thought there was this esoteric message, very anti-feminist, which she said, you want

00:40:17.000 to invite me to the Power of Women Gala?

00:40:19.300 I am going to show you a big part of the Power of Women.

00:40:22.720 And so I'm not saying it's conservative, I'm just saying it's not feminist.

00:40:28.680 It ain't feminist, for sure.

00:40:30.060 Yes.

00:40:30.580 I actually love that point.

00:40:32.760 I take your point because I remember, not to compare myself to Sydney Sweeney, sadly,

00:40:38.820 I wish I could, but no.

00:40:40.880 But it was 2016 and we were headed to the Republican National Convention and I was anchoring for

00:40:47.460 Fox and it was a crazy time.

00:40:49.580 It was like Trump and just so tumultuous and it was crazy for me at Fox because that day

00:40:56.060 we had gone out to the Republican National Convention in Ohio and that day it broke on

00:41:01.960 the air that Roger Ailes was credibly accused by all these women and that I had been cooperating

00:41:07.860 with these investigators and it was just like my whole life was on the news and then I had

00:41:12.480 to go do the news and I went out to do the coverage that night and of course all these

00:41:18.680 leftists are like, she's a girl boss, that kind of thing.

00:41:21.420 And I remember thinking, I'm not one of you.

00:41:23.940 Like this is, I didn't want any of this out there.

00:41:25.660 This is, I was dragged into this kicking and screaming.

00:41:27.940 Like I don't want this to be that.

00:41:30.240 And that night I wore this, it's like spaghetti strap outfit to do the news.

00:41:36.040 And it was kind of that moment, you know what I mean, where I was like, I'm going to sauce

00:41:41.680 it up and remind you all that I'm not on your team.

00:41:45.780 I'm going to bring the heat as a woman who's not looking to be out here in pinstripes like

00:41:51.280 grabbing people by the balls and castrating them, right?

00:41:56.020 That you can do it all.

00:41:57.280 You can be a news anchor, you can take yourself seriously, but you can also be sort of a saucy

00:42:01.560 person who men find attractive and who you want to find you attractive, right?

00:42:05.740 Because you're a regular American woman.

00:42:07.780 So I kind of relate to what you're saying.

00:42:09.280 Yes.

00:42:09.700 You know, look, I'm all for modesty, truly.

00:42:12.200 I didn't even see the dress at first.

00:42:14.760 My producer said to me, he said, Michael, why aren't you leading the show and closing

00:42:18.480 the show with Sidney Sweeney?

00:42:19.800 You know, the ratings will be through the roof.

00:42:21.500 I said, what?

00:42:21.980 I saw some headline, I didn't pay attention.

00:42:23.440 And then later on, it popped up in my Twitter feed and I said, all right, got to get custody

00:42:27.720 of my eyes.

00:42:28.200 Hold on, let's see.

00:42:29.240 Custody of my eyes.

00:42:30.240 Hold on, I got to go to some other news website or something.

00:42:32.080 But I thought, in a culture that is so confused as ours, in a culture that doesn't know the

00:42:37.980 difference between men and women, it is a relatively conservative thing for a woman to really be a

00:42:44.760 woman and really show everyone.

00:42:48.420 We're going to talk about that soundbite that you mentioned of Sidney Sweeney a little later.

00:42:52.140 But we talked with Andrew a bit about his faith and his conversion from Judaism to Christianity.

00:42:58.120 And you, so I, of course, I know you're deeply religious, that you're a Catholic, you're a

00:43:02.920 devout Catholic.

00:43:04.000 And I did not know until I was actually preparing for tonight that you like doubled down on your

00:43:10.080 faith.

00:43:10.340 You found like your true conservative Christian faith, your devotion to Catholicism, until

00:43:16.260 you were at Yale.

00:43:18.860 That's not a thing.

00:43:20.020 Who goes to Yale and becomes more of a devout Catholic?

00:43:23.040 I think they're going to rescind my diploma when they find out that was the consequence of it.

00:43:27.300 Yeah, I was, you know, I always prefer the term, instead of devout Catholic, I always prefer the

00:43:31.500 term practicing Catholic, because I'm going to keep on practicing until I get it right.

00:43:35.340 It might take a long time.

00:43:39.280 But when I was, I was cradle Catholic raised, you know, the 90s were kind of a weak time for

00:43:44.280 catechesis generally.

00:43:45.540 And then by the time I was 13, I was about to be confirmed, I said, I'm an atheist.

00:43:49.980 Atheist, because I was a very clever little boy, and, you know, Christopher Hitchens had

00:43:55.960 that posh accent, and he was just so smart.

00:43:58.320 And I thought I was smarter than everybody, so I said, I'm an atheist.

00:44:01.660 And my mother looks at me, she says, uh, she said, you're going through a phase, you should

00:44:07.520 receive the sacrament of confirmation, you're going to come out of it, you'll regret it

00:44:10.380 if you don't.

00:44:10.840 I said, okay, all right, whatever, I trusted my mother.

00:44:12.720 She was right.

00:44:13.840 I was an atheist for about, practically an atheist for 10 years.

00:44:16.600 That started to weaken when I was 18, I get to Yale, as you mentioned, and most people

00:44:21.780 are atheists, and, I don't know, a ton of people are much smarter than me, many of whom

00:44:26.660 are atheists.

00:44:27.660 However, I noticed the most intelligent people were not atheists.

00:44:31.700 They were theists, they were in varying degrees of practicing religion, and they presented

00:44:36.060 me with intellectual arguments for the existence of God.

00:44:39.080 It was pretty good.

00:44:39.700 The ontological argument, later on, St. Thomas Aquinas' Five Ways.

00:44:43.060 Then I found other British guys who were clever and posh to counter Christopher Hitchens,

00:44:47.860 namely C.S.

00:44:49.260 Lewis, Owen Barfield from there, G.K.

00:44:52.080 Chesterton.

00:44:54.300 Only at a Megyn Kelly event, you get applause for Chesterton, Lewis, great, I love that.

00:44:59.420 Thank you.

00:44:59.880 I love that.

00:45:01.380 And so by the time I was 23, I graduate, that was when I really reverted.

00:45:05.520 I'm not a convert, but I'm a revert to the faith.

00:45:07.700 And it's one of those things, as St. Augustine said, you know, how late have I loved you,

00:45:15.080 you know, a love ever ancient, ever new.

00:45:17.520 And it's kind of how you feel.

00:45:18.780 You say, man, I really took the long route.

00:45:21.240 You know, I talked to people who are cradle Catholic, you know, broadly religious, and I

00:45:27.160 said, that was the easy way.

00:45:28.240 That's what you should have done.

00:45:29.220 And I took the long route.

00:45:30.520 But hey, all's well that ends well, so I'll take it.

00:45:32.340 So what was the conversation between you and God after Charlie?

00:45:40.720 You know, I was at work, and the morning that Charlie died, I thought about texting him,

00:45:48.260 because Charlie was very good at texting, and I am very bad at texting.

00:45:52.160 I don't text anyone back.

00:45:53.880 It's bad.

00:45:55.040 Same.

00:45:55.600 Yeah, I'm horrible at it.

00:45:56.820 Shame.

00:45:57.060 My friends, my family, very important people.

00:45:59.820 And anyway, I thought, ah, shoot, I owe Charlie a text.

00:46:03.060 And it was a text, actually, weirdly, a little bit about religion.

00:46:05.780 And then he was shot.

00:46:08.180 And also, oddly enough, Charlie and I were supposed to do an event together at the University of

00:46:13.320 Minneapolis 12 days after he was killed.

00:46:16.820 And the last conversation we had on his show, he said, all right, Michael, I'll see you in

00:46:21.340 Mogadishu.

00:46:22.100 And it was a great, great observation.

00:46:24.420 And so, my first reaction, everyone was chattering about it on Twitter, I said, just pray for

00:46:31.560 Charlie Kirk, you know.

00:46:32.700 And, but what I can know, I don't want to tell tales out of school, but I think a lot

00:46:36.480 of this has become public.

00:46:38.140 You know, one, everyone knows Charlie was deeply religious.

00:46:40.920 Charlie was wearing a St. Michael medal, actually, when he was killed.

00:46:44.700 I opened the speech that we were supposed to have together with the prayer to St. Michael.

00:46:48.080 And you don't believe it.

00:46:51.600 I was talking to my wife, who saw, happily, I didn't see the video, but she did.

00:46:55.760 And she said, you know, it's a strange thing, because I looked at it, and I said, there's

00:46:58.600 no way he's alive.

00:47:00.000 And then, at the same moment, I said, there's no way he can be dead.

00:47:03.400 He's Charlie Kirk.

00:47:04.240 You know, the guy would have been president.

00:47:05.880 And everyone knows it.

00:47:08.480 And it's a very difficult thing, because it's all in God's providence, you know.

00:47:16.480 And Charlie knows that better than anyone.

00:47:18.580 And, you know, Charlie had certain faith in Christ.

00:47:24.180 However, there's this impulse afterward to say, well, we're Christians.

00:47:27.660 We shouldn't be sad.

00:47:29.140 Charlie's with his Savior.

00:47:30.300 We shouldn't be sad.

00:47:31.400 You know, we should be happy.

00:47:32.520 This is a very modern aspect of Christianity, to say, you know, don't grieve, don't mourn,

00:47:38.920 just be happy-clappy.

00:47:39.960 And that ain't my kind of religion.

00:47:41.120 I don't know.

00:47:41.520 Maybe I'm a little too traditional.

00:47:43.020 But it is deeply sad.

00:47:44.720 And we should grieve.

00:47:46.320 And we should mourn.

00:47:47.360 And it's a great injustice.

00:47:48.580 And we should be indignant.

00:47:49.540 I mentioned Thomas Aquinas earlier.

00:47:51.040 He says it is a defect not to be angry in the face of grave injustice.

00:47:55.800 And we should be absolutely furious about it.

00:47:58.140 We should also have trust in God.

00:47:59.680 We should also have hope as a theological virtue.

00:48:01.960 We should also pray for Charlie and his entire family.

00:48:04.980 But we should be really shocked and mourn.

00:48:07.900 And it was a national trauma as much as it was a personal one.

00:48:11.040 I know a lot of people were grieving.

00:48:12.220 I thought, man, am I grieving because we were friends?

00:48:14.680 And that was part of it?

00:48:15.960 I would meet grown men on the street.

00:48:17.660 And they would be crying.

00:48:18.920 And they never met Charlie ever.

00:48:20.040 It was a national trauma.

00:48:21.260 It was a political trauma compounded by a second political trauma, which is when the

00:48:25.760 Democrats celebrated it.

00:48:27.020 And we should be furious.

00:48:28.200 And we should reassert some order to conduce to the common good as a national wake-up call.

00:48:36.580 Amen.

00:48:36.980 And Michael Knowles, thank you.

00:48:40.260 Thank you, Megan.

00:48:41.040 Thank you to all of you.

00:48:42.020 Appreciate it.

00:48:42.720 Thank you.

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00:50:21.940 When I got a great deal on a great gift at Winner's, I started wondering, could I get

00:50:26.380 fabulous gifts for everyone on my list?

00:50:28.440 Like this designer fragrance for my daughter.

00:50:30.740 At just $39.99, how could I resist?

00:50:33.540 This luxurious wool throw for my sister.

00:50:36.200 This gold watch for my partner.

00:50:38.120 A wooden puzzle for my niece.

00:50:39.880 Leather gloves for my boss.

00:50:41.500 Ooh, European chocolate for the crossing guard.

00:50:44.820 At these prices, could I find something for everyone at Winner's?

00:50:47.580 Stop wondering, start gifting.

00:50:50.180 Winners find fabulous for less.

00:50:53.720 It's finally here.

00:50:55.340 All right, let's get this party started.

00:50:57.440 Megyn Kelly Live on tour across America.

00:51:00.860 I was like, we have to go, and then after what happened to Charlie, I'm like, we definitely

00:51:04.440 have to go.

00:51:05.360 The best way to honor Charlie's legacy is to be out here, to be unafraid, to not back

00:51:10.880 down.

00:51:11.480 Stand firmly.

00:51:12.840 Do not waver on the truth.

00:51:14.880 Next stop, White Plains, Jacksonville, Miami, and Atlanta.

00:51:18.800 So go get your tickets right now before they sell out.

00:51:21.020 MegynKelley.com.

00:51:22.040 Presented by Y Refi and SiriusXM.

00:51:29.120 Well, you may have heard of my next guest.

00:51:34.580 Let me tell you, I'm just going to steal a couple minutes to talk about Ben Shapiro.

00:51:37.540 So I first got to know Ben when I think he was 10.

00:51:44.380 He looked 10.

00:51:46.680 And I was on the air at Fox, and he started coming on.

00:51:50.600 And he was obviously so smart, right?

00:51:52.960 But he was so young.

00:51:54.120 And you were kind of like, are people going to take him seriously?

00:51:56.220 Like, he's so young.

00:51:57.400 It's like, but all you needed to do was spend two minutes with Ben Shapiro to realize, oh,

00:52:01.200 people are going to take him seriously.

00:52:02.720 Yeah, we're good.

00:52:03.520 We don't have to worry about that.

00:52:04.420 But I quickly fell in love with this guy and his political commentary and started putting

00:52:08.320 him on more and more and more and more and more.

00:52:10.320 And in the ratings game, which is cable news, you can see how somebody does.

00:52:14.360 Like, do they rate?

00:52:15.840 And you can see it minute by minute.

00:52:17.760 Does the audience go up when he's on?

00:52:19.100 Does it go down when he's on?

00:52:19.800 Does it hold steady?

00:52:20.600 And we'll take either go up or hold steady.

00:52:22.300 But if it goes down a lot, then you never see them again.

00:52:24.980 And every time Ben was on, you could see it skyrocket because people were learning something.

00:52:30.520 He's got the gift of gab.

00:52:31.600 I mean, he's completely articulate and can make his points without any stuttering, without

00:52:34.960 any ums and ahs, without any hesitation.

00:52:37.160 But he's always substantive, right?

00:52:38.980 And you always learn something.

00:52:40.060 Agree, disagree, doesn't matter.

00:52:41.560 You learn something from Ben Shapiro because he's always done his homework, right?

00:52:45.700 You never think, oh, God, that guy's going to come out empty-handed.

00:52:50.260 He's got that big brain.

00:52:51.360 He's got the legendary IQ.

00:52:52.720 It can be very intimidating talking to him at first.

00:52:55.380 But I'm proud to tell you I'm now one of the very few Americans who listens to the Ben Shapiro

00:52:59.160 show on 2.0.

00:53:01.360 It's not easy to do.

00:53:02.900 You can listen to the Megyn Kelly show on 2.0 or the Ben Shapiro show.

00:53:06.820 Megyn Kelly, fine.

00:53:08.180 Ben Shapiro, no.

00:53:09.180 You have to be an expert.

00:53:11.060 So we became friends over those years.

00:53:13.560 And then, of course, I left Fox.

00:53:14.840 I went to NBC.

00:53:15.900 And everybody knows what happened there.

00:53:17.700 So there I was, sitting on my couch, feeling sorry for myself, licking my wounds, thinking

00:53:23.720 my career is destroyed.

00:53:25.400 Literally, everybody's calling me a racist.

00:53:26.820 Nobody wants to hire me.

00:53:27.640 I'm a joke in the industry.

00:53:28.720 I've gone from, like, the top of my game to someone everybody is laughing at and treating

00:53:32.820 with scorn.

00:53:35.160 And who reached out to me?

00:53:38.780 Who actually reached out, sent me a text, and said, we need to talk?

00:53:43.480 Ben Shapiro.

00:53:44.120 He saw I was down.

00:53:48.940 He saw I was hurting.

00:53:51.040 And instead of what most of us do, honestly, what I do too often, and just kind of say,

00:53:55.040 like, oh, that's sad, move on.

00:53:56.840 He actually reached out and said, I want to help you.

00:54:00.040 And you need to get off that couch.

00:54:02.840 He didn't have to do it.

00:54:04.740 I mean, Ben, his life was great.

00:54:06.220 His show was completely crushing it.

00:54:08.080 The Daily Wire was on fire.

00:54:09.800 Like, he was a busy man.

00:54:11.060 Did not have to take two minutes to think about me.

00:54:12.660 And it wasn't like I had done him any extraordinary favors at Fox.

00:54:16.080 He was a star.

00:54:16.800 He was brilliant.

00:54:17.300 Anybody could have seen that.

00:54:18.200 I wasn't some special, you know, spotter of talent.

00:54:21.360 So he said, MK, you need to come out here to the Daily Wire in California, where they

00:54:25.960 were at the time.

00:54:26.480 Now they're in Nashville.

00:54:27.520 And see what we're doing.

00:54:29.900 And see whether you think you could see yourself doing something like this.

00:54:32.940 And he wasn't like, you must work for the Daily Wire.

00:54:34.660 I want to make money off of you.

00:54:35.760 I think you're a commodity I could buy into the Daily Wire.

00:54:38.900 He was like, you need to do this, and the country needs you to do this.

00:54:42.660 So I did.

00:54:43.320 I flew out there, which was a big step for me, because I was really just stress eating

00:54:47.160 at home most days.

00:54:49.720 And showed me all around.

00:54:51.280 And not only did he show me all around the Daily Wire and show me exactly how he was doing

00:54:54.320 a show and how one could do a show.

00:54:56.160 But like, completely, he was like, here are our financials.

00:54:59.320 What do you want to know about us?

00:55:00.400 Like, here's exactly how we, here's what this costs.

00:55:02.040 Here's what the advertising is.

00:55:03.200 Here's how you could do it.

00:55:04.020 This is how much it would cost you.

00:55:04.960 Like, it was amazingly transparent on somebody who, like, he didn't have to do any of this.

00:55:10.240 It was like, the amount of trust that he put into me, having me out there and showing me,

00:55:14.360 I was like, blown away by it.

00:55:15.840 And I left the Daily Wire that day and Ben saying, this is what I want to do.

00:55:21.820 He inspired me fully and completely.

00:55:24.480 And I didn't totally know exactly what my next move was or how I'd get into it or who

00:55:29.420 I'd hire or from where I would do it or any of that.

00:55:32.000 But that was, I think, December of 19.

00:55:34.920 And I had made the decision that that would be my next move.

00:55:38.060 And then we got into the fall or the spring of 2020 and COVID hit.

00:55:42.100 Spent that in Montana with my family.

00:55:43.740 And then George Floyd of Palooza hit.

00:55:45.700 And by September of 2020, the Megyn Kelly show was born.

00:55:49.200 Sometimes we joke with Glenn Greenwald, who's one of the most frequent guests on the Megyn

00:55:56.940 Kelly show, that he's the godfather of the Megyn Kelly show because he comes on so often.

00:56:02.180 That's true.

00:56:03.260 But I think you could make a fair case that Ben Shapiro is the father of the Megyn Kelly show.

00:56:09.580 And I will be forever grateful to him.

00:56:11.420 You know he's a total juggernaut.

00:56:13.300 His show, it's in a league of one.

00:56:17.280 He's reinvented this entire industry and lane.

00:56:20.460 He started the Daily Wire, which gave us geniuses like Klavan, Knowles, Matt Walsh, who we love,

00:56:25.860 who we just talked to two days ago, and many, many others.

00:56:30.060 And I have nothing but unending love and respect for Ben Shapiro.

00:56:35.080 Take a look at this, and we'll bring him out.

00:56:39.840 Ben Shapiro, go to hell!

00:56:41.960 What's happening to today's college kids?

00:56:43.880 What explains the fear?

00:56:45.160 Ben Shapiro went out, made a speech.

00:56:47.260 Some students who didn't even go to the speech have made appointments with a therapist to

00:56:52.640 deal with the trauma.

00:56:55.860 That was the crowd that greeted conservative writer Ben Shapiro as he was attempting to

00:56:59.940 give a speech.

00:57:00.960 And I was told by the police officers, if you do that, there could actually be a riot.

00:57:04.240 Look at me.

00:57:05.140 I mean, do I look like a physical threat to anybody?

00:57:07.200 It's not rude to say that someone who's biologically a male is a male.

00:57:11.080 Facts don't care about your feelings.

00:57:12.460 You cut that out now, or you'll go home in an ambulance.

00:57:15.900 That seems mildly inappropriate for a political discussion.

00:57:19.120 No, I know.

00:57:19.640 If you're going to criticize the meritocracy as an outgrowth of white supremacy, then

00:57:23.260 you're going to have to tear down the system that you've succeeded in because you have

00:57:26.980 merit.

00:57:27.520 Joe Biden, there's only one thing the guy is good for, and that is being wheeled out in

00:57:30.620 front of a parade that's already moving.

00:57:31.800 He's like, oh, I'm here.

00:57:33.660 I'm here.

00:57:35.020 Ben Shapiro, Ben Shapiro.

00:57:37.480 Really enjoy your work, Ben Shapiro.

00:57:38.820 You used to love Ron Sanctis.

00:57:40.240 I think you're going to love us a lot more.

00:57:42.080 I think you're going to really enjoy being with us.

00:57:44.180 Okay, Mr. President, appreciate that.

00:57:46.240 Fox News just called it.

00:57:47.740 It's over, gang.

00:57:48.780 This election is done.

00:57:50.200 It's toast.

00:57:50.840 You can put it in the fridge.

00:57:52.000 It's finished.

00:57:52.800 The greatest political comeback in American history.

00:57:54.800 In American history.

00:57:56.220 Un-effing believable.

00:57:58.200 I mean, this is a huge victory.

00:57:59.580 A huge victory against a woke left that needed to take it directly in the teeth.

00:58:03.740 Well, folks, I just got back from the theaters seeing Barbie.

00:58:06.700 This movie is not just a piece of s***.

00:58:08.520 This movie is a flaming piece of dog s*** piled atop an entire dumpster on fire.

00:58:13.500 It is one of the worst movies I've ever seen.

00:58:15.540 And you said, I may have a desire to sleep with many women, but I do not.

00:58:19.980 I agree with me.

00:58:20.980 Yes, that's true.

00:58:21.980 Congratulations on your, yeah.

00:58:24.540 Charlie's voice is not silent.

00:58:26.520 We're going to pick up that blood-stained microphone where Charlie left it.

00:58:30.240 And to those who would intimidate, who would seek to stop us, who would seek to end free

00:58:35.720 discussion and kill people who speak freely, we are not going to stop.

00:58:40.680 And I have two words.

00:58:42.200 F*** you.

00:58:43.340 Thank you so much for being here.

00:58:59.340 Thank you.

00:58:59.780 Yes.

00:59:02.260 The man, the myth, the legend.

00:59:04.880 The one and only.

00:59:05.700 Thank you so much for being here.

00:59:06.900 Thanks for having me, Megan.

00:59:08.140 How about that walk down memory lane?

00:59:09.780 That was great.

00:59:10.900 Right?

00:59:11.140 I am so happy you're here.

00:59:14.040 This worked out so well.

00:59:15.840 You've been in the news lately.

00:59:17.960 Yes.

00:59:18.520 Yeah, you've seen that?

00:59:19.780 Yeah, a little bit.

00:59:20.820 How's your last year been?

00:59:22.940 The last year has been interesting.

00:59:25.360 Obviously, huge victory for President Trump, which was the big news of the last year.

00:59:30.060 All the transformative policies that he's put into place, that's been wonderful.

00:59:33.940 I've had the opportunity to see him do some of these historic things in person.

00:59:37.760 I happened to be in Israel for the Jewish holidays when he was giving that historic speech at

00:59:41.420 the Israeli parliament, which was unbelievable.

00:59:43.300 I mean, it was truly tremendous.

00:59:45.700 And then, obviously, you figure after an election, things are going to cool down.

00:59:50.520 And then things don't cool down.

00:59:52.960 And so, you know, it's been busy.

00:59:55.460 Obviously, since Charlie's murder, which I think all of us reacted in precisely the same

01:00:02.640 way, the security threats went up dramatically.

01:00:06.740 I've had, obviously, personal security since, I believe, 2017, maybe 2016.

01:00:12.200 I've had about 10 years of personal security.

01:00:14.240 The last six years has been 24-7 security on me as well as on my four children.

01:00:18.800 And that's been accelerated even more so in the aftermath of Charlie's murder.

01:00:24.240 So on a personal level, that's been not fun.

01:00:27.620 The good news is that the security guys are very sweet, and my kids get along with them

01:00:31.100 great, and they have lightsaber fights with them, and they think that this is kind of

01:00:34.080 normal.

01:00:34.620 But it isn't normal, and I wish that the country would go back to normal, but it seems like

01:00:39.700 it may be a while.

01:00:40.580 You've been dealing with this for a long time, and I've seen it personally.

01:00:45.060 You know, I mean, I've seen you surrounded by teams of security, and I heard you say,

01:00:47.860 and I mentioned this last night, that if, God forbid, something happened to most of the

01:00:51.620 Daily Wire guys, we would know exactly who did it immediately.

01:00:54.720 If something happened to you, God forbid, it would be like an Agatha Christie mystery.

01:00:59.720 There's so many possibilities, because you're loathed by the far left, and you're loathed by

01:01:04.700 what we used to and maybe still do call the alt-right.

01:01:08.060 And I remember we used to talk about this on the Kelly File, because some people called

01:01:12.080 you alt-right, and you would explain, no, no, no, no, no, no, I'm not alt-right.

01:01:16.640 I'm loathed by alt-right.

01:01:18.300 So what is alt-right, and why do they loathe you?

01:01:21.040 So there is a group of people in the United States who are rooted in an idea of grievance

01:01:26.780 against the system that they believe has put them underfoot, and those people believe

01:01:31.100 that essentially they are underfoot because of their white status, and thus they must

01:01:38.380 take revenge on anybody who is disproportionately benefiting from the system that tends to, in

01:01:43.160 their own minds, be Jews.

01:01:45.140 And you see this mostly refracted right now through a young man named Nick Fuentes.

01:01:48.800 He's 27 years old.

01:01:49.840 He is the leader of a movement called the Groypers.

01:01:51.900 I don't know if any of you are familiar with this, but he is, he says and believes truly

01:01:59.180 awful things, I mean, truly awful things, not just about Jews.

01:02:02.700 I mean, he has said, for example, that the vice president of the United States, there's

01:02:06.840 a direct quote, I believe, is a fat gay race traitor married to a jeet.

01:02:10.040 That's a direct quote about the vice president.

01:02:11.880 And upset that he named his son Vivek.

01:02:13.180 Yes.

01:02:13.460 He also has suggested and spent years trying to destroy Charlie Kirk's organization.

01:02:20.060 Charlie, in texts that have now been revealed, called him vermin for exactly this reason.

01:02:24.060 It had banned him and his followers from TPUSA because he believed that Nick Fuentes and

01:02:29.820 the Groypers and white supremacy didn't belong as part of the conservative movement.

01:02:33.440 And so the alt-right is, it became this, or they are two sides of the same coin, or they're

01:02:40.040 parts of the same sort of broad movement.

01:02:41.520 And unfortunately, I think that they've gained a foothold in sort of the internet subsystem.

01:02:48.940 I don't think they have a foothold in mainstream America at all.

01:02:51.680 And I think one of the mistakes that people make is to think that the internet is real life.

01:02:54.800 The internet is absolutely not real life.

01:02:57.300 And the first thing people need to do is turn off X, which is poisoning brains and making

01:03:01.980 people think that not true things, it's basically like war games.

01:03:05.360 They think the missiles are real.

01:03:06.560 The missiles are not real.

01:03:07.460 The things happening on X are not a reflection of real life.

01:03:09.940 But they can bleed over to real life if enough people take them seriously.

01:03:14.040 So you and I have talked about Nick Fuentes many times over the years and our many appearances

01:03:18.400 together.

01:03:18.980 And that's how I knew about him, because he was saying absolutely terrible things about

01:03:23.880 you.

01:03:24.480 And I am going to show a video, please forgive me, of one of my first introductions to this

01:03:30.080 guy, Nick Fuentes, and what he was saying about Ben.

01:03:33.560 This is a video of him showing himself playing Grand Theft Auto, a video game where you shoot

01:03:41.820 people, and he's pretending that this character in the video is Ben.

01:03:47.880 Let's watch.

01:03:48.340 Oh, that's funny.

01:04:04.220 Oh, that's funny.

01:04:16.740 Yeah, that makes me laugh and laugh.

01:04:19.920 That's a funny one.

01:04:22.820 What a chance encounter that was.

01:04:25.080 I think I just saw Ben Shapiro.

01:04:29.160 And it goes on.

01:04:30.480 It goes on.

01:04:31.240 I mean, I would hate for people to believe that the Nick Fuentes sort of, my problems

01:04:37.200 with Nick Fuentes are about me, because they really are not.

01:04:40.140 They are about the fact that Nick Fuentes is a truly horrifying person who believes truly

01:04:46.080 horrifying things.

01:04:47.520 And again, there is a reason why Charlie Crick despised him.

01:04:51.140 There is a reason why every mainstream political commentator has been highly critical of him.

01:04:58.220 It's the reason why.

01:04:59.340 These are not arguments.

01:05:00.320 This is not a person who's making arguments.

01:05:01.840 He is a Hitler-loving troll.

01:05:03.960 And I say that advisedly.

01:05:05.620 He literally says on his show that he loves Adolf Hitler.

01:05:09.540 Okay?

01:05:09.740 So the reason this has come up in recent weeks is because Tucker, your guest last night,

01:05:14.700 decided to have him on last week and to completely gloss him, in my opinion.

01:05:20.220 And you can make up your own opinion as to what you think Tucker was doing during that interview,

01:05:23.180 but I know what it looks like when Tucker Carlson decides to be an aggressive interviewer,

01:05:26.680 when he decides to ask difficult questions of people.

01:05:28.740 Tucker is eminently capable of doing that, and he did it to Ted Cruz quite thoroughly.

01:05:32.020 But he decided for any number of reasons, and I try not to attribute motivations to people,

01:05:38.740 that he was going to treat Fuentes with kid gloves, that he was going to not ask him about any of the things that I've just mentioned,

01:05:45.380 literally any of them, and to essentially normalize Fuentes, act as a sort of gateway drug,

01:05:51.680 or as a, what I've called Tucker, as an ideological launderer of bad ideas over the last couple of years.

01:05:57.800 And this is not coming from a place of animus for Tucker on a personal level.

01:06:02.580 I've known Tucker for a very long time.

01:06:04.340 Tucker, whenever we're in personal situations, we get along great.

01:06:07.140 I think I saw that Tucker talked about how we were at Charlie's memorial in the vice president's box together,

01:06:11.840 and he's correct.

01:06:12.460 I mean, we saw each other, we said hello, we talked, it was very friendly, and all of that.

01:06:16.280 And it's also true that a couple of days after Charlie's murder, he reached out, and he called me, and he said,

01:06:21.520 listen, I know that we're at odds, and we've been at odds for a number of reasons, mainly political.

01:06:26.600 I mean, again, on a personal level, I'd go fishing with Tucker any time.

01:06:30.020 The real question is, for me, I got into this business because I care about the ideas, and I care about the ideals.

01:06:36.740 And so when you're determining what is conservatism, what should the future of America look like,

01:06:41.680 and where do you draw the lines,

01:06:43.200 those are the questions that I need to answer in my job.

01:06:47.100 For me, my business is really not about friendship.

01:06:50.000 I have lots of friends, people who I love, with whom I disagree on politics,

01:06:53.740 and don't believe they should be leaders in the conservative movement, for example.

01:06:57.220 And that, to me, is the real question.

01:06:59.180 In any case, Tucker reached out.

01:07:00.720 He said, you know, we've had a bunch of disagreements,

01:07:02.940 and what if we could put those aside and align toward the DSA in particular, is what he mentioned.

01:07:08.500 And I said, you know, Tucker, you're totally right.

01:07:11.300 Let's do that.

01:07:11.920 That would be great.

01:07:13.200 Or the TSA?

01:07:14.600 The DSA, DSA.

01:07:15.820 The Democratic Socialist of America.

01:07:16.660 Why the TSA?

01:07:17.840 How did that bring you together?

01:07:18.900 The Democratic Socialist of America.

01:07:20.320 No, that I know.

01:07:21.220 Yes, and the reason that I'm taking out my phone.

01:07:22.420 TSA only divides people.

01:07:24.020 Is because, yes.

01:07:25.540 The reason I'm taking out my phone is because I don't just, you know,

01:07:28.500 I like to evidence what I'm saying with, you know, actual evidence.

01:07:33.700 So I texted him.

01:07:35.240 And the text exchange was very nice.

01:07:37.200 I mean, here's what the actual text exchange went like after the call.

01:07:39.840 So I texted him, and I said, thanks so much for calling.

01:07:42.100 It means the world.

01:07:42.720 It truly does.

01:07:43.740 Should we do a show together?

01:07:44.740 Talking about the DSA threat, Democratic Socialist of America threat, and orienting in the same

01:07:49.000 direction.

01:07:49.880 Happy to do whatever it takes to bring everyone back together for the fight that matters.

01:07:53.800 And Tucker then wrote back, thanks, man.

01:07:55.800 I appreciate it.

01:07:56.540 I'm going to spend the next week or two thinking about how to be most effective.

01:07:59.140 The country is clearly on the brink.

01:08:01.360 I reached out repeatedly.

01:08:03.120 After that, nothing happened.

01:08:05.740 And, again, I thought it was a good idea at the time.

01:08:09.100 I think I felt differently after I saw what he did with Nick Fuentes and after he proceeded,

01:08:14.960 in my opinion, to spend the subsequent weeks doing literally nothing to fight the left.

01:08:19.980 Again, I say this with sadness because Tucker used to be, I think, a deeply important part

01:08:25.100 of the conservative push to win.

01:08:29.140 The number of times that Tucker Carlson has mentioned Zoran Mamdani since October 5th on

01:08:33.780 his show is once.

01:08:35.440 And it was in the context of Marjorie Taylor Greene and Tucker Carlson talking about the

01:08:39.460 appeal of Zoran Mamdani.

01:08:41.460 Just by way of contrast, not because I'm a perfect representative here, but because you've

01:08:44.980 talked about Zoran Mamdani a lot.

01:08:46.340 A lot of us have.

01:08:47.360 Since October 5th, I did 17 separate shows on Zoran Mamdani, including four in the last

01:08:51.500 week before the election.

01:08:53.180 Because when you're orienting against the left, you really should orient against the left.

01:08:59.140 Okay, so a lot in there.

01:09:04.680 I think, just to be clear, so the breakdown from the, like, detente after Charlie was him

01:09:11.140 interviewing Fuentes.

01:09:12.400 Like, was that the next thing that happened that led to the blowout?

01:09:15.940 I mean, yes.

01:09:17.220 I mean, I had not spoken a word.

01:09:19.060 So it wasn't that he attacked you, like, you had something.

01:09:21.440 No, I don't care about people attacking me.

01:09:23.180 And I don't think Tucker cares about people attacking him.

01:09:25.040 I mean, again, we're professionals.

01:09:26.680 We're in a business where people comment on what we say publicly.

01:09:30.840 You know, again, this is why, you know, I think you and I differ on our angle with

01:09:34.560 regard to, for example, Candace Owens.

01:09:36.680 I think that what Candace Owens is doing right now is evil.

01:09:39.360 It is evil, what she is doing right now.

01:09:41.580 Okay?

01:09:42.020 And I say that, again.

01:09:44.020 But what, what, like, I didn't opine on whether it's evil or not, but my position is, it's

01:09:49.180 really none of my business, and...

01:09:50.620 Why is it, but I have a question.

01:09:51.980 Why is it none of your business?

01:09:53.480 I mean, you comment on these things for a living.

01:09:55.280 Because I don't, I'm not mother of the internet.

01:09:56.580 No, but, but if this were on the left, and somebody were accusing Charlie Kirk of his

01:10:01.160 wife having murdered him, I assume that you would be talking about it.

01:10:03.860 Is that what Candace is accusing Erica of?

01:10:06.020 Yes.

01:10:06.620 Of murdering her own husband?

01:10:07.940 She's, she's accusing TPUSA insiders and other members of the right wing, including

01:10:12.020 Seth Dillon, of being involved in the murder of Charlie Kirk, yes.

01:10:16.460 Okay.

01:10:16.880 Like I said, I, I don't take in that content, which is an honest statement.

01:10:19.980 I, I don't have time to watch Candace show.

01:10:21.260 No, I, I believe you.

01:10:21.940 I believe you.

01:10:22.320 But the, the, the point that I'm making is that when...

01:10:24.060 What I, what I understand Candace too have been doing.

01:10:25.540 In our business, I think it's important.

01:10:27.000 Listen, I'm...

01:10:27.580 No, and Candace and I are not friends.

01:10:28.940 Friendship should not trump...

01:10:29.420 We don't even know each other.

01:10:30.260 I understand, but even with Tucker.

01:10:31.920 Friendship should not trump our manifest requirement to speak out when people do and say things

01:10:37.900 that are both detrimental to conservatism and morally wrong.

01:10:40.800 Okay, so I, I, I don't totally disagree, but I think the way of handling that, at least

01:10:45.660 for me, is much different.

01:10:46.980 So, I, I thought, saw things go south between you and Tucker, at least from my vantage point,

01:10:51.420 when you disagreed on Israel, that was obvious.

01:10:54.680 And he, he was, well, let me just make my point.

01:10:56.080 Sure.

01:10:56.180 And so he was saying things that were critical of Israel and our policy towards Israel.

01:10:59.880 And then you did one show where you did what I thought you should have done, if

01:11:04.780 you disagreed with him, which clearly you did, which is say what you believe.

01:11:07.520 And what you think is factual and like educate your audience on what you think are the real

01:11:11.540 facts and give them the evidence for it.

01:11:13.280 But you named him and it felt like an attack.

01:11:16.980 And that, to me, was the beginning of the end where he was like, now it's on.

01:11:21.740 Because he felt personally attacked by you, as opposed to just challenging his idea.

01:11:25.140 I think you named him and you, you kind of diminished him.

01:11:28.220 And, you know, he's an 800 pound gorilla.

01:11:30.480 And if you mess with a gorilla, he's going to fight.

01:11:32.800 And to me, that's where it started to go south.

01:11:35.020 And because I remember that day being like, oh, shit, I don't want to see this.

01:11:38.680 But here's the thing.

01:11:39.140 I would urge everybody to go back and listen to the show that you're referring to, where

01:11:41.960 I criticized Tucker's ideas, not Tucker as a person.

01:11:44.940 Tucker then responded by claiming that I do not love America.

01:11:48.720 That is a direct quote, that I do not love America because I was spending too much time

01:11:52.160 covering the October 7th attacks.

01:11:54.300 And then proceeded in January to then say that I wanted his children to die in a foreign war.

01:11:59.640 Okay, so those are a different...

01:12:01.800 That's a rhetorical point.

01:12:02.920 No, it is not.

01:12:03.920 I'm sorry, it's not.

01:12:04.860 An attack on motivation is a very different thing from an attack on an idea.

01:12:07.920 His point was that you were sounding like a neocon and he's upset with anybody who wants

01:12:12.000 us to get too involved in Israel's conflict because he feels it endangers American children.

01:12:16.540 It is a...

01:12:17.760 Okay, the idea that, number one, the idea that I want the United States to be directly involved

01:12:23.460 in Israel's conflict is not true.

01:12:25.020 No, I know that, Ben.

01:12:26.100 I've been urging Israel to get off of American aid for literally as long as I have been active

01:12:30.160 in politics.

01:12:30.660 But I'm making clear what his point was.

01:12:32.000 No, no, but my point is that that's not his point.

01:12:34.740 And again, none of this...

01:12:36.080 So we disagree.

01:12:36.880 Well, no, we disagree on the interpretation of what Tucker has been doing for the past

01:12:41.860 two years.

01:12:42.280 And it's very difficult for me to believe that Tucker is merely anti-Israel when, for example,

01:12:47.760 today, in his newsletter, I mean, I can directly quote it if you'd like, in his newsletter

01:12:52.420 today, he claimed that Zoran Mamdani is not anti-Semitic.

01:12:57.400 This was his newsletter today, this morning.

01:13:00.780 I mean, I'm happy to read the text.

01:13:02.420 It's pretty...

01:13:03.260 It's a little extraordinary because, again, it is kind of shocking stuff.

01:13:06.780 So here's what Tucker Carlson wrote in his newsletter today, or what his newsletter says

01:13:10.940 under his name.

01:13:12.080 He said, is the incoming mayor a fan of Israel?

01:13:14.840 Does he want America to fight its wars?

01:13:16.300 Not particularly.

01:13:17.560 But a Jew hater?

01:13:18.500 That's a different conversation.

01:13:19.720 We've never seen anything to suggest he falls into that ugly camp.

01:13:23.540 If we're talking about fighting the left, defending Zoran Mamdani, who literally said

01:13:27.360 that Hamas, he has no opinion whether Hamas should disarm, who posed alongside the 1993

01:13:31.320 World Trade Center unindicted co-conspirator, who would not disown globalize the intifada,

01:13:35.660 who suggested that whenever there is a New York Police Department boot on somebody's neck,

01:13:40.000 it's an IDF lacing the strings, to suggest that that's not anti-Semitic in any way, no way.

01:13:44.960 Okay, but listen, I'm going to give you a defense of Tucker here, and I don't need to

01:13:49.280 defend Tucker, because I'm not Tucker.

01:13:50.480 Tucker can perfectly well defend himself.

01:13:52.440 But I'll just say, I think in general, because I know him, and I listen to him, and I understand

01:13:55.080 generally where he's coming from, he would say his problems are with Israel.

01:13:59.300 And he would say that that shot that Mamdani laid against the IDF is a shot against the IDF

01:14:04.780 and Israel and how he thinks they're pro-war, not against Jews.

01:14:09.720 And I think, all I can say is, when Tucker Carlson finds himself in complete alignment

01:14:13.840 with Zoran Mamdani, it is very difficult for me to believe that he does not agree with

01:14:17.940 Zoran Mamdani.

01:14:18.500 I think Tucker is in a place right now of the same place that Charlie was getting to

01:14:23.040 toward the end of his life, the same place that some people had tried to drive me, which

01:14:27.320 is, you're under withering, non-stop accusations of being something you know you're not, but from

01:14:34.480 from some people who you love and who you've been protecting, at least in my case and Charlie's

01:14:40.040 case, for two years, who you've been completely defensive of.

01:14:43.020 And Charlie and I both felt, and I, because we talked about this on my show, like, what's

01:14:47.320 happening here?

01:14:48.200 Why are they dropping charges of anti-Semitism against us when we love Jews and we're both

01:14:52.300 open Semites?

01:14:53.680 We're Zionists.

01:14:54.680 So, Megan, you may notice, I'm just talking about me here.

01:14:57.820 Are there people who are overzealous?

01:14:59.100 Sure.

01:14:59.760 Have I ever attacked you?

01:15:00.860 No, no, never.

01:15:01.540 Did I ever attack Charlie publicly about any of this?

01:15:03.560 No, no, no, no.

01:15:04.180 Okay, he and I had disagreements behind the scenes.

01:15:05.580 I'm just saying it's a mentality, right?

01:15:06.120 That you're like, you get defensive, and I think Tucker's feeling defensive.

01:15:08.740 By the way, I waited to attack Tucker until he glossed Nick Fuentes, who is, that has nothing

01:15:14.320 to do with Israel.

01:15:14.960 Nick Fuentes hates Jews.

01:15:16.860 I'm not saying you didn't have a right to go after him.

01:15:19.300 I mean, I think you did what you thought was right, and you felt, and he mentioned you

01:15:23.140 a few times in his interview with Nick Fuentes.

01:15:25.260 He did, but again, I don't think it's about that, because if he had not mentioned me in that

01:15:27.960 interview with Nick Fuentes, I still would have said something about it, because again, glossing people

01:15:32.400 who are white supremacists is bad electorally on a pragmatic level.

01:15:36.200 A right wing that embraces its own fringes will end up in the same position as the left

01:15:40.320 wing that has embraced the fringes.

01:15:41.320 Okay, so that's why I want to get into it.

01:15:42.920 It embraces.

01:15:44.440 Yes.

01:15:44.720 So now having spoken to Tucker, I actually see that interview very differently, and I

01:15:49.320 did listen to the interview, and I knew what Nick Fuentes was, and I think he did show himself

01:15:53.780 to be who he is.

01:15:54.520 It wasn't his most vile stuff, but you got the feel for what this guy was.

01:15:58.000 But I really think Tucker was talking to him, Ben, to put like a bumper on this guy, because

01:16:04.500 what Tucker was urging him the whole time was to understand that collective punishment

01:16:09.180 for any one group of people is wrong.

01:16:10.760 It's deeply immoral, and it's anti-Christian, which this guy is supposed to be, and reminding

01:16:16.220 him of how deeply immoral that is, that you should not be looking at a group of people,

01:16:21.620 whomever it is.

01:16:22.720 The left does it to everyone, whites mostly, but like this collective shame, white men in

01:16:29.340 particular, and there's a group of people like Nick Fuentes that does it to groups of

01:16:33.840 Jews, and he was making the case throughout the whole interview in the way that Tucker does.

01:16:38.660 He's not like you or me.

01:16:39.620 He's not like pointed and cross-examining.

01:16:41.840 That is not true.

01:16:42.740 And was making-

01:16:43.260 That is fundamentally untrue.

01:16:44.840 No, no, no.

01:16:45.180 Ask Senator Ted Cruz whether that is true.

01:16:46.640 He gave it to Ted Cruz, because Ted Cruz is a politician.

01:16:49.780 That's, oh, oh, hold on, hold on.

01:16:51.500 So only politicians get cross-examined?

01:16:53.040 You don't, well look, it depends on the person.

01:16:54.720 Tucker would never cross-examine a person who is not a politician.

01:16:57.500 That's his rule?

01:16:58.100 Tucker has excoriated public figures who purport to speak for us and represent us for many

01:17:05.260 years.

01:17:06.100 Nick Fuentes is a podcaster civilian.

01:17:08.500 Okay, I just have a question.

01:17:10.940 We all in our industry are constantly excoriating people who are in our industry.

01:17:15.560 It happens all the time, every single day.

01:17:18.460 Okay.

01:17:18.780 Okay, again.

01:17:19.120 We're talking about his interviews.

01:17:20.560 Again, we can agree to disagree on your interpretation of what Tucker was doing there.

01:17:24.840 I think everybody should watch and determine for themselves what they think Tucker was doing

01:17:29.140 in that interview.

01:17:30.080 And I urge you to watch it back-to-back with the Ted Cruz interview to determine whether

01:17:33.920 you think that that was an aggressive Tucker Carlson interview.

01:17:36.320 And you can judge yourself.

01:17:37.260 You don't have to take my opinion.

01:17:38.180 I didn't say it was aggressive.

01:17:38.900 And I don't think he would say it was aggressive.

01:17:40.500 And I think his point was, this guy, first of all, he's become a behemoth, sadly.

01:17:44.660 He's got five million viewers on Rumble.

01:17:47.260 He's got a million followers on X.

01:17:48.820 I agree.

01:17:49.220 This is all before Tucker Carlson.

01:17:50.680 And he was platformed, I hate that verb, but he was platformed by Patrick Beck David.

01:17:54.580 And he went on Dave Smith's show.

01:17:55.480 And he went on another big show.

01:17:56.400 He's been getting more and more purchase in the political ecosphere, including right-wing.

01:18:02.580 And I think that's bad.

01:18:03.320 Patrick Beck David has a huge show.

01:18:05.020 I know, but did you know that Patrick Beck David had him on?

01:18:07.720 Did his life blow up?

01:18:08.940 Patrick Beck David did a significantly more aggressive interview with Nick Fuentes than Tucker did.

01:18:13.000 Okay, but my point is simply, he's growing.

01:18:15.280 He's growing in stature.

01:18:16.320 And so, what I saw Tucker do was not whitewash his ideas, but try to put bumpers up on the guy.

01:18:22.440 I know Tucker well, and I think that was his approach.

01:18:24.740 And the way, if you want to put a bumper up on Nick Fuentes, is it helpful to say, you're fucking vile?

01:18:31.480 You're an anti-Semite?

01:18:32.720 No, it isn't.

01:18:33.460 Yes, it is.

01:18:34.060 That doesn't put a bump.

01:18:34.640 Yes, it is.

01:18:35.000 No, it isn't.

01:18:35.640 That makes the audience feel good because you have hand-to-hand combat, but it doesn't help change that guy's view or his extremeness at all.

01:18:43.280 Okay, I'll tell you what doesn't change Nick Fuentes' view.

01:18:46.320 Tucker Carlson, with his arm around Nick Fuentes, grinning for the camera, while Nick Fuentes tweets out, America first, and then triumphantly goes on the air the next day to explain that he has essentially used Tucker Carlson as a vehicle for manipulating other people.

01:19:01.180 Okay, that's what Nick Fuentes is saying, not me, Nick Fuentes.

01:19:05.280 Okay, and Nick Fuentes, and by the way, I will, again, say that Tucker Carlson, when you say to somebody in an interview, do you condemn anti-Semitism?

01:19:13.440 And then the person says, sure, which is what Nick Fuentes said.

01:19:16.240 He said, I'm not an anti-Semit, which is blatantly untrue.

01:19:19.580 Agreed.

01:19:19.900 A responsible journalist would then follow up, demonstrating that that is false.

01:19:23.560 Tucker did not do that.

01:19:24.560 He allowed him to get away with that, and then he allowed him to talk about, quote-unquote, organized a jury, followed by Nick Fuentes being treated to a disquisition by Tucker Carlson about why Christian Zionists, of all human beings on Earth, are the people that he hates the most.

01:19:38.200 He took that back.

01:19:39.340 You can't take that back.

01:19:41.020 You can, too.

01:19:41.640 He took that back.

01:19:42.300 He did.

01:19:43.080 How?

01:19:43.760 He went, he spoke to...

01:19:44.620 Then he should explain why it was wrong.

01:19:46.380 He should explain why Christian Zionists are actually wonderful people.

01:19:48.520 Tucker is very quick to self-flagellate, and he went on with Dave Smith the next day, the next week, whatever, Monday, Tuesday this week, and said, that was stupid.

01:19:57.920 I didn't mean that.

01:19:58.720 He said, I'm angry at people like Lindsey Graham.

01:20:01.020 I'm angry at people like Ted Cruz, because he thinks they run headfirst in these conflicts, and they don't think about what's going to happen to American kids.

01:20:07.880 Wait, wait, hold up.

01:20:08.080 If we're talking about firing inside the tent, what everything Lindsey Graham, okay,

01:20:11.360 and I'm not a huge Lindsey Graham fan, he votes with the President of the United States 100% of the time,

01:20:15.060 and Tucker spent yesterday's show excoriating him as a psychosexual death worshiper.

01:20:20.860 Does that sound like firing outside the tent?

01:20:23.200 Again, these are the questions...

01:20:24.320 I've got to say, I'm not offended.

01:20:25.220 Again, the questions that I'm asking here, I'm not asking you to do anything, Megan.

01:20:29.040 No, I know.

01:20:29.520 Okay, I'm not.

01:20:30.280 I know, our beef is not with each other.

01:20:31.200 I'm not, okay?

01:20:32.440 When I draw a line with regard to what I believe Tucker Carlson is doing to the conservative movement and what he is fomenting,

01:20:38.400 that is because, that is my influence, and everyone can make their own decision as to whether,

01:20:41.360 whether they think that I am right or whether I am wrong,

01:20:43.080 and where they choose to draw the line with regard to the conservative movement.

01:20:46.420 The question for me is always whether somebody's statements are forwarding moral values that I think are worthwhile.

01:20:52.860 I did not get into this business for the money or for the clicks.

01:20:55.360 You didn't either.

01:20:56.180 Neither did he.

01:20:57.400 What was that?

01:20:58.020 Neither did he.

01:20:58.740 I mean, he may not have.

01:20:59.820 That's fine.

01:21:00.680 I certainly did not.

01:21:01.620 I'm only going to speak for myself.

01:21:02.600 And what that means for me is that if I see somebody breach basic moral values by having on a Nazi,

01:21:10.180 and in my own view, you can take your own view, in my own view, gloss the Nazi,

01:21:15.840 then I'm going to speak out about that,

01:21:17.480 and I'm going to point out that there is a long pattern of him ideologically laundering terrible ideas over the course of the last two years,

01:21:23.400 ranging from traveling to Russia to sniff the bread and explain why the Russian regime is actually wonderful

01:21:29.200 to saying last week that the Venezuelan regime of Nicolas Maduro is actually not that bad

01:21:37.180 because they're being attacked by, in his words, Globo Homo.

01:21:41.100 Tucker's made the point.

01:21:41.800 I'm not going to be here to be Tucker's defender,

01:21:43.520 but he's made the point that Maduro is culturally conservative.

01:21:46.360 Who gives a shit?

01:21:47.660 The guy's a communist dictator.

01:21:50.000 Everyone in his country is eating dog.

01:21:51.720 He's shipping fentanyl to the United States to kill Americans.

01:21:55.280 Why do I give a shit whether he's anti-LGBTQ rights?

01:22:00.440 This is the number one thing about Nicolas Maduro?

01:22:02.380 You know how far down the list you have to get before you can get to anything remotely recommendable about Nicolas Maduro?

01:22:07.760 I did ask him yesterday about the criticism that he didn't give Nick Fuentes a hard time, right?

01:22:15.660 He didn't bring up the stuff that we've been talking about.

01:22:18.680 No, he didn't.

01:22:20.180 And here's what he said.

01:22:22.280 It seems to me that we've way overstated the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust.

01:22:26.500 He's ripped on poor Usha Vance in the most offensive terms.

01:22:31.320 Which, I mean, so what do you say to those people?

01:22:33.660 Why didn't you raise any of that?

01:22:35.860 You know, do your own interview the way that you want to do it.

01:22:39.040 You're not my editor.

01:22:40.400 Buzz off.

01:22:41.300 I mean, I don't know.

01:22:42.180 You want to go yell at Nick Fuentes?

01:22:43.400 I'll give you a cell.

01:22:44.080 Call him.

01:22:44.860 And go sit and yell at him and feel virtuous or whatever.

01:22:47.540 That's up to you.

01:22:50.020 I agree with him.

01:22:51.220 By the way...

01:22:51.620 No, I agree with him.

01:22:52.740 I agree with him.

01:22:53.520 He did the interview that he wanted to do for a reason.

01:22:58.480 Here's the other thing I want to say.

01:23:00.020 We all have different approaches in this industry, you know?

01:23:02.540 And there's been a lot that people in podcasting have said that I disagree with, including many

01:23:07.100 of the names that we've discussed tonight.

01:23:08.640 I mean, we disagree, too.

01:23:09.600 I mean, yes, of course.

01:23:10.240 But, I mean, yes, rarely, but sometimes we do.

01:23:14.400 But my own personal approach, generally when it's someone who's on what I consider to be

01:23:19.460 my side, the side of sanity...

01:23:20.280 And this is the entire question, is whether I consider Tucker Carlson to be on my side.

01:23:23.160 I got it.

01:23:23.600 I got it.

01:23:23.880 But I would just say, just for the record, my own general approach, and this is my audience

01:23:27.920 here, so they know, is in general, I will take on a position and I will make clear how

01:23:32.420 I feel.

01:23:32.860 For example, I've been asked, and some of my audience is mad at me for this, but what do you

01:23:36.680 think happened to Charlie Kirk?

01:23:37.600 And I believe a man named Tyler Robinson shot and killed Charlie Kirk.

01:23:41.560 I believe he was influenced by trans-TIFA, radical trans activists, that he fell in with

01:23:47.400 a lunatic that goes by Lance Twiggs, that that guy was extremely radical, and that he

01:23:53.240 and possibly a band of others convinced this guy that violence was the answer.

01:23:57.760 And I believe others knew about it before Charlie was killed.

01:24:00.120 That's what I believe.

01:24:01.520 And until you can show me cold, hard proof that it was something other than that, that's

01:24:05.080 what I'm going with.

01:24:05.660 And I don't want to do or say anything that will jeopardize the FBI investigation and prosecution

01:24:10.420 of that guy to make sure he spends the rest of his life either behind bars or on the wrong

01:24:15.920 end of a firing squad.

01:24:17.680 But that's...

01:24:19.520 So I feel like I can make these points without attacking people who generally are on my side

01:24:25.800 in fighting the deranged leftists who are killing us.

01:24:29.340 But my point is...

01:24:30.500 So two points.

01:24:31.240 One, you have to define your side.

01:24:34.020 You do.

01:24:34.320 There are limits to the side.

01:24:35.340 All the people who don't want to kill others based on their political ideology.

01:24:38.020 So I would agree with that, except for the fact that, as you showed, Nick Fuentes wants

01:24:41.740 to kill others based on their political ideology.

01:24:43.560 He's not on my side.

01:24:44.100 He's not with me.

01:24:44.940 My point is that Tucker treated him as though he was on his side.

01:24:48.080 I see it differently.

01:24:49.140 I think he did an exploratory interview where there was a possible attempt to put a bumper

01:24:53.400 up on this guy.

01:24:53.820 I think that we don't have to go over ground that we've already covered.

01:24:56.460 We can agree to disagree on that.

01:24:57.780 And everyone can make up their own mind after going and watching the interview yourself.

01:25:00.580 Why don't we do the Larry David?

01:25:01.580 I disagree to disagree.

01:25:04.620 By the way, is it gloss or glaze?

01:25:07.680 I've heard it both ways.

01:25:08.680 Yeah.

01:25:09.020 A gloss, like a glossy...

01:25:10.600 You guys, do you have kids who do the brain rot talk?

01:25:12.240 That's what they call it, brain rot, those terms?

01:25:14.240 Like he's got riz?

01:25:15.740 I don't know.

01:25:16.340 I've got two teenagers and a 12-year-old.

01:25:18.220 I mean, listen, my original verbiage is that Tucker was fluffing him, so I guess that was

01:25:21.480 more G-rated.

01:25:22.800 That's a porn reference, right?

01:25:24.720 It is.

01:25:25.380 It's a porn reference.

01:25:26.320 Yeah.

01:25:26.500 He's not afraid to say it.

01:25:28.060 So let me ask you this.

01:25:30.500 There's some risk to both of you in this.

01:25:34.000 You know, it's like Godzilla and King Kong having this battle.

01:25:36.480 There's some risk to both of you because you both have very large shows, very large audiences,

01:25:39.780 and there's probably some overlap, or at least there would have been two years ago.

01:25:43.380 So is this in any way, did you feel any reluctance to, you know, have this?

01:25:48.060 The only...

01:25:48.680 Okay, so I was reluctant because, again, he and I had texted about the idea of orienting

01:25:53.440 in the same direction, and then I decided that we were, in fact, not oriented in the

01:25:56.660 same direction.

01:25:57.840 Okay, but am I worried about, you know, the career risks?

01:26:01.720 No, because to me, there's sort of a laffer curve when it comes to influence.

01:26:04.720 So famously, when it comes to economics and the laffer curve, the idea is that if you tax

01:26:08.560 everybody at 0%, you receive zero tax revenue.

01:26:11.140 If you tax everybody at 100%, you also receive zero tax revenue because everyone stops working.

01:26:15.300 I think there's an influence curve as well, because I thought about this a lot before...

01:26:18.640 This is so, Ben, who goes to the laffer curve to bring home the point about...

01:26:22.420 This is so smart, but then he knows that we don't know what he's talking about, so he

01:26:24.920 defines it.

01:26:25.360 So if you have no influence, if you have no influence, but you speak out a lot, then you

01:26:30.960 have no influence.

01:26:32.180 If you have tons of influence, and you don't speak out when it's appropriate, you also really

01:26:35.700 have no influence.

01:26:36.400 And so for me, the question becomes, when is it important to speak out?

01:26:41.500 And Megan, you and I have been talking behind the scenes about many of these same issues

01:26:44.680 for a very long time.

01:26:46.040 And so you know that I actually...

01:26:48.200 You've known me for a very long time.

01:26:49.980 I'm pretty good at conflict, but I don't like conflict.

01:26:52.260 I really don't.

01:26:53.480 You've been trying to put this one behind you guys for a long time.

01:26:55.560 A very, very long time.

01:26:58.160 Consistently for a very long time.

01:27:00.460 In fact, for two years...

01:27:01.980 I mean, I can read older text messages after that initial blow up where Tucker was suggesting

01:27:06.520 I have dual loyalty and all of this.

01:27:07.980 I literally texted him and I said, Tucker, we seem to have gotten crossways somehow.

01:27:11.240 I would love for you to come on my show.

01:27:12.520 I'd be happy to come on your show.

01:27:13.820 We'll do it.

01:27:14.720 And he proceeded to ghost me for two years.

01:27:19.120 Okay, so...

01:27:19.680 He was not in a headspace.

01:27:20.680 I didn't talk to him about this, but my assumption is he was not in the right headspace

01:27:24.700 to have a good time.

01:27:25.260 For two years is a long time to be not in the right headspace.

01:27:27.640 But you know...

01:27:27.980 Look at the two years we've had, right?

01:27:29.220 Look at the two years...

01:27:29.880 It's all related to Israel.

01:27:31.700 It's all related to Israel.

01:27:33.220 I do not agree.

01:27:35.140 I disagree.

01:27:36.060 I fundamentally disagree.

01:27:36.920 He wasn't picking fights with you before the Israeli conflict.

01:27:39.280 It wasn't about picking fights over Israel.

01:27:41.620 Okay, again, you're trying to turn it into he picked a fight with me or I picked a fight

01:27:44.960 with him.

01:27:45.440 For me, the question is...

01:27:46.640 There's no accident.

01:27:46.960 It blew up over the past two years.

01:27:48.140 I don't think that it's a coincidence that, obviously, anti-Semitism simultaneously blew

01:27:53.040 up with the war of October 7th.

01:27:55.220 Yes, but also, so has conflict and controversy.

01:27:57.980 Involving feelings over Israel.

01:27:59.740 Of course.

01:28:00.280 And now, the war has been over for several weeks.

01:28:02.760 And Tucker Carlson is writing newsletters about how Zoran Mamdani is not an anti-Semite.

01:28:06.100 What does that have to do with Israel?

01:28:07.880 I think that's a hangover from being called an anti-Semite at every turn and feeling angry

01:28:12.300 about it.

01:28:12.600 You know what?

01:28:13.000 I'm a little tired of the excuse that if you are called something enough, that justifies

01:28:17.480 all of the subsequent activity.

01:28:19.220 I've been called every goddamn name in the book.

01:28:22.100 Every name in the book.

01:28:23.180 And I have not...

01:28:23.820 Wait, but I have not shifted my positions because people call me names.

01:28:26.900 That is a childish thing to do.

01:28:28.880 Ben, with all due respect...

01:28:30.040 And pardon the language.

01:28:30.880 You did not have an entire country call you a Nazi for the past week.

01:28:34.480 I think he's in a defensive place right now on charges of anti-Semitism.

01:28:38.620 I'm not interested in his psychotherapy, Megan.

01:28:40.220 I am.

01:28:40.800 I love him as I love you.

01:28:42.400 Well, you know what?

01:28:43.360 And that's why I started this off by saying you're empathetic and you're a wonderful person

01:28:47.180 and you're a good friend.

01:28:49.000 And I think that, you know, there's a reason why in the medical industry you don't operate

01:28:54.280 on your friends or your relatives.

01:28:56.400 But you're telling me I need to.

01:28:58.460 I'm not telling you...

01:28:59.320 That's what I'm trying not to do.

01:29:00.560 No, Megan.

01:29:01.040 Actually, I haven't said that one time here.

01:29:02.440 I've said that's why I'm doing it.

01:29:04.060 I know, but there are many people who are like...

01:29:05.200 And you're urging me not to.

01:29:06.380 And I'm saying that that is not a move that I can make because Tucker has already closed

01:29:11.100 the door to the idea that we are on the same side.

01:29:13.380 Ah, but he hasn't closed the door to detente.

01:29:15.820 Let me show you another soundbite.

01:29:18.020 Let me just show you one more.

01:29:20.600 But is there any way that you and Ben Shapiro can actually find your way to detente?

01:29:28.160 I'm not against Ben Shapiro.

01:29:29.880 He did like a 40-minute thing yesterday calling me dangerous and all this stuff.

01:29:33.660 It's like I didn't watch it because why?

01:29:36.500 But I got a lot of texts about it and it's like I'm not...

01:29:39.880 I don't think Ben Shapiro is driving a lot of this stuff.

01:29:42.540 I don't consider him like the world's greatest force for evil.

01:29:47.080 I don't feel that way at all.

01:29:48.260 I don't actually think about him ever.

01:29:49.640 So I don't want to have a war with Ben Shapiro.

01:29:51.900 I don't know if...

01:29:53.220 Does he really think that me doing an interview in which I explain that anti-Semitism is wrong

01:29:58.320 to one of the lead purveyors of anti-Semitism, that that somehow makes me a Nazi?

01:30:01.820 Like, what is the argument here?

01:30:03.340 I'm going to ask him tomorrow night.

01:30:04.520 No, but I don't even understand what the argument is.

01:30:06.800 All I know is that the right, and I've been on the right since before Ben was born,

01:30:11.220 is acting like the left in such an amazingly precise way that I'm like,

01:30:16.600 what the hell is going on?

01:30:19.360 I agree with Tucker that the right is in fact acting like the left by, again,

01:30:23.900 massaging its radicals in the name of some sort of faux unity.

01:30:28.320 I agree with that.

01:30:28.960 Does that sound detente?

01:30:30.220 Because, again, I'm not...

01:30:33.000 Again, trying to turn this personal is a mistake.

01:30:35.320 I know, but can it happen?

01:30:36.620 Can it...

01:30:37.260 Like, that person who sent those texts from your end,

01:30:40.460 is that person still willing to sit with him and work something out?

01:30:44.360 When Tucker changes his positions, then sure.

01:30:48.260 If he does not change his positions, then no,

01:30:50.840 because I'm not in politics to be friends with people.

01:30:53.060 I have children, I have a wife, I have a dog, I have an extended family,

01:30:56.240 and I have friends outside of this.

01:30:57.180 He doesn't want to be friends with you either, Ben.

01:30:57.980 It's about uniting the right so that we can fight the right enemy on the left.

01:31:02.600 And Tucker is of the right.

01:31:03.640 And Tucker has been fighting for a lot of these ideals for a long time,

01:31:06.600 and he's changed this country fundamentally for the better.

01:31:09.300 I'm not saying Tucker has never been a wonderful advocate for anything on the right,

01:31:12.560 because I don't think that's true.

01:31:13.940 I think in the past, he was a great advocate for many things on the right,

01:31:16.740 particularly on the immigration issue.

01:31:18.440 For sure.

01:31:19.700 I'm saying that's not what he is doing now.

01:31:21.540 I do not think he is advocating for right-wing positions.

01:31:23.600 He is not conservative than I am by any stretch of the imagination on any possible issue.

01:31:27.380 And when it comes to the question as to whether he is actually making the conservative movement

01:31:31.760 more likely to lose by attacking inside the tent significantly more often than anyone else

01:31:36.620 on the right, while simultaneously massaging, again, watch the interview,

01:31:41.600 massaging the nation's leading white supremacist.

01:31:45.880 I'm sorry, there's no detente with those positions.

01:31:48.360 Forget about the person.

01:31:48.940 There's no detente with those positions.

01:31:50.240 Fair enough.

01:31:50.980 Fair enough.

01:31:51.340 Was this a good discussion?

01:31:58.360 I mean, honestly, I give you tons of credit for coming and doing this.

01:32:01.600 It's such a crazy thing for me that I had him booked last night,

01:32:04.380 and I had you booked tonight, and then you guys wound up in this.

01:32:06.980 But part of me loves that, you know, I can talk to both of you,

01:32:09.920 but part of me hates this, because I really, I don't like it.

01:32:12.160 I hate it, too.

01:32:13.560 This idea that I'm, like, seeking conflict.

01:32:15.420 Again, I'm not.

01:32:17.080 I know.

01:32:17.980 It's idea-driven.

01:32:19.340 I know.

01:32:19.500 If the ideas are bad, I am against them.

01:32:21.800 I get it.

01:32:22.020 If the ideas are good, I am for them.

01:32:23.920 End of story.

01:32:24.880 I get it.

01:32:26.760 And he would say the same, right?

01:32:27.920 He feels very much America first, and that, you know,

01:32:31.140 we need to prioritize what's happening in our country,

01:32:33.020 and Israel's not on that list, and so on.

01:32:34.480 You guys can listen to that interview if you want to hear Tucker's full thoughts.

01:32:37.920 It aired today.

01:32:38.820 You probably heard it.

01:32:39.720 Okay.

01:32:40.580 We're going to take 20 seconds,

01:32:42.720 and surprise, we're bringing Andrew and Michael back out here.

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01:36:07.720 We'll have a group discussion starting now.

01:36:11.220 So, what'd I miss?

01:36:15.040 You gave us all the easy questions.

01:36:17.240 I like that.

01:36:18.080 We had a lot of fun.

01:36:19.040 All right, let's actually have fun.

01:36:21.560 Let's kick it off with the Sidney Sweeney moment.

01:36:26.440 Not the dress, sorry.

01:36:28.560 But with the moment, an extraordinary moment she had today

01:36:31.500 where she was asked quite a question by GQ magazine

01:36:35.500 about that infamous or famous, depending on your point of view,

01:36:40.460 American Eagle jeans ad and how she handled it.

01:36:44.580 The criticism of the content,

01:36:46.800 which was basically that maybe specifically in this political climate,

01:36:50.140 like, white people shouldn't joke about genetic superiority.

01:36:55.860 Like, that was kind of like the criticism, broadly speaking.

01:36:58.680 And since you are talking about this,

01:37:00.120 I just wanted to give you an opportunity to talk about that specifically.

01:37:03.620 I think that when I have an issue that I want to speak about,

01:37:09.520 people will hear.

01:37:12.160 Like a boss.

01:37:14.160 That was actually sexier than the dress.

01:37:17.340 What an extraordinary moment, right?

01:37:19.120 It's great.

01:37:19.980 That's watershed stuff up there.

01:37:22.280 It's the new meme.

01:37:23.380 You know, there's a meme on the Internet of, like,

01:37:25.220 Anakin Skywalker talking to his wife,

01:37:27.700 and then really he sort of doubles down,

01:37:29.900 and it's this, like, dark right wing.

01:37:31.580 That's the new version of that.

01:37:33.160 She's the new spokesman for the American right,

01:37:35.100 and I'm willing to go so far as to say,

01:37:37.140 right now, I'm formally endorsing a ticket of Vance Sweeney,

01:37:41.280 2028,

01:37:42.200 the greatest message discipline in the Republican Party.

01:37:45.860 Yes, the message discipline, exactly.

01:37:47.340 But what a thing to hold your own and say, like,

01:37:49.940 no, I won't be making news for you today on that.

01:37:52.860 It's so great.

01:37:53.980 And she understands the game, right,

01:37:55.300 which is that the lady was after clicks,

01:37:56.820 and if she comments in any way,

01:37:58.600 it'll make a huge headline.

01:37:59.620 She's like, you know, no gas, no gas for the car.

01:38:02.000 And now where are you going to go?

01:38:03.260 Smart.

01:38:03.560 But that plus that Jennifer Lawrence moment, right?

01:38:06.540 Drew is like, they're starting to get it.

01:38:08.880 Oh, listen, Hollywood is out of work.

01:38:11.080 When I say that, I mean they're all out of work.

01:38:13.040 You could make a movie about white supremacy,

01:38:15.720 and they would show up because they are out of work.

01:38:18.360 The business, this is true, the business has shut down.

01:38:21.380 Only the Christian people are making movies.

01:38:24.100 A couple of movie stars who can still make movies.

01:38:26.640 The business has closed.

01:38:27.900 And, you know, the unions are enforcing racial quotas on the films,

01:38:33.560 and you cannot win an Oscar if you don't have a certain racial quota of the people involved.

01:38:37.680 And all of that is kind of just coming apart at the seams.

01:38:40.240 It's kind of delightful.

01:38:41.300 It is, it's wonderful.

01:38:42.860 Well, this is not least because this is the Democrats' bench.

01:38:45.620 Like, this is their A-team to get them elected, right?

01:38:47.620 This is who they bring out.

01:38:48.560 This is who they parade out now.

01:38:49.600 And more and more, they're going to be getting a no.

01:38:51.260 Because if they can hurt the career of Taylor Swift,

01:38:55.380 they can absolutely hurt anybody else.

01:38:57.260 And by they, I mean us.

01:38:59.580 So they're learning that we have real buying power,

01:39:01.860 and that we can hurt you if you get too political.

01:39:03.280 And we will.

01:39:03.840 Like, we don't use it that often because we're conservatives,

01:39:05.640 and we kind of let people live and let live.

01:39:07.040 But, like, when they try to push Kamala Harris into the White House,

01:39:10.460 we stand up and we fight.

01:39:11.840 We find our spine.

01:39:12.600 So I feel so encouraged by that.

01:39:13.940 I don't feel encouraged at all about anything that happened this week,

01:39:16.180 but I feel encouraged by that.

01:39:17.500 And there was really no blowback to her either,

01:39:19.760 which is sort of the impressive thing.

01:39:20.900 So you remember back in the 90s,

01:39:22.020 Michael Jordan famously was asked about

01:39:23.580 why he didn't start making very loud political statements,

01:39:26.400 and he said, because Republicans wear sneakers, too.

01:39:28.980 And everyone went nuts on him.

01:39:30.420 This was considered terrible at the time.

01:39:32.060 And then, of course, the NBA decided that LeBron James was the great face

01:39:34.940 because he was so politically so much better than Michael Jordan

01:39:37.200 because he was political.

01:39:38.580 She said this, and I think all of us cheered,

01:39:40.700 and the entire left kind of backed into a corner.

01:39:42.560 They really did.

01:39:43.100 They're afraid.

01:39:43.980 They're like, oh, shit.

01:39:44.640 I think that's right.

01:39:45.320 She can't be pulled around.

01:39:46.200 But, you know, you said something earlier, Megan,

01:39:47.720 that people have to show up for the people who make rebel films

01:39:51.320 and rebel books and all that stuff.

01:39:53.060 There was a film on Apple TV with Tom Hanks

01:39:55.900 where he was a guy fighting Nazi submarines.

01:40:00.300 All he does through the entire movie is read the Bible and kill Nazis.

01:40:05.000 And I thought everybody should be watching.

01:40:07.880 We should be subscribing to Apple TV.

01:40:09.680 The movie is called Greyhound, by the way, and it's terrific.

01:40:11.580 It's terrific, yeah.

01:40:13.240 Let's talk about 2028 and Team Blue.

01:40:16.320 Who do we like?

01:40:17.540 Who do we think is actually going to pull this thing out?

01:40:20.040 Gavin?

01:40:21.360 I guess right, yeah, like the leading candidate right now.

01:40:24.900 If you had to put your money on it.

01:40:26.220 If you forced me today, I would say, no,

01:40:29.400 it's going to be a Bill Clinton-like figure in 92.

01:40:31.700 It's going to be someone who maybe we don't know yet

01:40:33.960 because no one's over that 25% threshold.

01:40:36.400 Probably it is American Psycho, Governor Bateman, you know,

01:40:40.360 Newsom over there.

01:40:41.280 Probably he's the leading candidate.

01:40:42.700 The problem for him, though, is he doesn't know who he is.

01:40:46.200 So he's a very far-left mayor.

01:40:47.800 He was doing gay marriages in San Francisco in, like, 2003,

01:40:51.240 long before that was legal.

01:40:53.180 He is very, very left-wing.

01:40:55.740 Then he tries to pivot and be the new Clinton Democrat.

01:40:58.960 So he tries to be friends with Charlie Kirk.

01:41:00.760 He tries to be friends with Steve Bannon.

01:41:02.480 He's going to cut this middle ground.

01:41:03.640 That doesn't work.

01:41:04.460 Then his press team is tweeting threats at Stephen Miller,

01:41:07.640 and they're going far, far left shortly after Charlie was murdered.

01:41:10.760 So he doesn't know where he stands.

01:41:12.260 And it's just a party problem.

01:41:13.620 The party problem is, you know, the future of the Democrat Party,

01:41:16.820 per Kamala Harris, there's Jasmine Crockett and Zoran Mamdani,

01:41:20.020 all these, like, far-left communists.

01:41:21.960 And he understands that no one is going to win a primary as a white guy

01:41:27.400 who's a moderate who's friends with Steve Bannon,

01:41:29.740 and no one's going to win a general if she's Jasmine Crockett,

01:41:33.140 who sometimes can speak the English language and sometimes apparently can't.

01:41:36.260 But I saw you say on your show,

01:41:38.140 this is why you believe Gavin Newsom is actually going to run

01:41:41.820 and he is going to run as the next black president.

01:41:45.380 And the reason Michael predicts this is because of this soundbite.

01:41:49.100 We've got one more soundbite for you.

01:41:50.280 That comes from an interview he did with two former NBA players last week.

01:41:54.760 But also, you know, it was also about paying the bills, man.

01:41:58.040 And it was just, like, hustling.

01:42:00.080 And so I was out there kind of raising myself,

01:42:04.080 turning on the TV,

01:42:05.180 started, you know, just getting obsessed,

01:42:08.360 you know, sitting there with, you know,

01:42:10.060 the Wonder Bread and five stacks of, you know,

01:42:12.960 Peter Butter and stuff.

01:42:15.780 Come on, man.

01:42:17.400 Come on.

01:42:19.360 Macaroni and cheese.

01:42:20.660 Yeah, man, man, bro.

01:42:21.640 Every day in the backyard,

01:42:23.160 just bouncing the basketball,

01:42:24.900 throwing the ball against the wall

01:42:26.340 until the ball is just, like, fraying, man.

01:42:28.600 And your arms falling.

01:42:28.740 Entertainment yourself.

01:42:29.840 That's it.

01:42:30.360 The whole thing.

01:42:31.180 So just, and then, you know,

01:42:33.080 then this student that was a shitty student,

01:42:34.840 in the back with his head down,

01:42:36.460 all of a sudden started throwing the baseball a little faster than everyone else.

01:42:39.800 And started, you know, make a few free throws

01:42:41.800 because I was sitting there practicing 500 of them every damn night.

01:42:45.360 And in high school, I look up in the stands,

01:42:47.560 my dad's back up there.

01:42:48.640 Okay.

01:42:49.360 And it's like, man.

01:42:50.680 And then he's bringing his friends.

01:42:52.820 And you're captain of the team.

01:42:54.680 And you're like, gee, you know.

01:42:56.140 And it just saved me.

01:42:57.300 And it got me into college.

01:42:58.200 But he's got my vote, by God.

01:43:01.940 Michael?

01:43:02.420 Michael said he was born a poor black child.

01:43:07.160 I was waiting for him.

01:43:08.720 And I, you know, listen, I'll tell you, fellas,

01:43:10.960 smoking blunts was a daily routine since 13.

01:43:14.480 Chubby fella on the scene.

01:43:16.080 He is such an unbelievable lizard person.

01:43:21.520 When you watch him,

01:43:22.520 you can almost see the ridges under his skin kind of moving.

01:43:25.860 Yes.

01:43:26.260 And you're waiting for him to unzip.

01:43:28.040 And just a dinosaur pops out.

01:43:30.520 How about the working class lie?

01:43:32.840 It's such a lie.

01:43:33.960 It's unbelievable.

01:43:34.760 He said, you know, he goes,

01:43:36.400 well, my pops went out to get milk.

01:43:38.040 You know, he didn't come back.

01:43:39.060 And finally, my dad's came around.

01:43:40.500 His dad was the financial advisor to the billionaire Getty family.

01:43:44.580 And he was a judge.

01:43:45.780 He was a judge.

01:43:46.660 That was his other job.

01:43:47.440 My dad worked two jobs.

01:43:48.620 Yeah, you were a financial advisor and a judge.

01:43:51.360 He was featured in a magazine spread as a teenager

01:43:53.980 with a caption,

01:43:55.020 Children of the Rich.

01:43:57.000 I was like, Wonder Bread and mac and cheese.

01:44:00.660 You know, I'm going to go a little bit off the board

01:44:02.320 in terms of 20, 28 picks for the Dems.

01:44:04.180 I think everybody is underestimating AOC.

01:44:06.520 Yeah, me too.

01:44:07.160 I do.

01:44:07.540 Who?

01:44:07.960 Underestimating?

01:44:08.540 AOC.

01:44:09.400 Really?

01:44:09.860 Yes.

01:44:10.260 Well, that's scary.

01:44:10.800 Because if I look at the order of the Democratic primaries,

01:44:13.000 it goes, Iowa, super progressive.

01:44:15.700 New Hampshire, super progressive.

01:44:17.860 And you get to South Carolina.

01:44:19.020 And that was sort of the firewall for, quote, unquote,

01:44:21.640 normie Dems last time, right?

01:44:22.760 Because Bernie won both the first two states.

01:44:24.540 And then the entire Democratic Party decided to deprive him

01:44:27.420 of the nomination by all getting together in James Claiborne

01:44:29.580 and saying, it's got to be the dead guy.

01:44:31.420 And so they all mobilized behind Biden.

01:44:33.480 I think that it's harder to do that with AOC.

01:44:36.780 Because what she represents is Bernie, but ethnically diverse.

01:44:40.060 And that is not a horrifying pitch

01:44:43.100 inside the Democratic primary electorate, actually.

01:44:46.160 And hot.

01:44:46.800 She's cute.

01:44:47.720 Get a...

01:44:48.160 He is.

01:44:48.820 Come on, Drew.

01:44:49.420 I'm sorry.

01:44:50.120 Stop it.

01:44:50.540 She is.

01:44:51.100 She is.

01:44:51.560 Just stop it, Drew.

01:44:53.280 Drew, no.

01:44:54.460 Yes.

01:44:54.880 No, Drew, no.

01:44:56.060 Stop.

01:44:56.700 She's no Sidney Sweeney, and I think we can all agree.

01:44:59.060 She's no Sidney Sweeney.

01:44:59.880 She's no Sidney Sweeney.

01:45:00.200 But she's got what Sidney Sweeney's got.

01:45:01.980 My own personal opinion is you can't be, like,

01:45:04.380 that constantly angry all the time

01:45:07.000 and, like, really penetrate the lens.

01:45:09.160 Ben is right.

01:45:10.240 Ben is right.

01:45:10.820 The eyeballs are, like, half out of your eye socket.

01:45:12.320 Yeah, but Ben is right.

01:45:13.500 She's a good campaigner.

01:45:14.520 She's good on the...

01:45:15.220 All right.

01:45:15.440 So would you put money on AOC?

01:45:16.720 Like, was she your front runner?

01:45:18.660 Yeah.

01:45:19.060 I'm looking at the polls right now.

01:45:20.120 I think that she is...

01:45:21.920 If she's not...

01:45:22.500 I think right now it's Newsom and her,

01:45:23.860 but I think Newsom fades.

01:45:25.060 I do.

01:45:25.640 He's got the same feeling about him

01:45:28.440 that actually I kind of felt about a guy who I really like,

01:45:31.320 Governor DeSantis,

01:45:32.040 in the early primary going in the Republican Party in 2024.

01:45:35.100 I love Governor DeSantis,

01:45:36.960 but in 2023,

01:45:38.660 the idea was that he was definitely going to be the nominee in 2024,

01:45:41.540 and then, of course,

01:45:42.020 Donald Trump just swamped him, right,

01:45:43.300 and swamped everybody.

01:45:44.320 And so I could see a world where the Newsom moment kind of fades.

01:45:48.540 Like, he feels like he's peaking early.

01:45:50.000 In all these races,

01:45:50.660 there's somebody who kind of peaks early,

01:45:51.960 and, like, oh, man,

01:45:52.880 remember that Tim Paul-Lensy guy?

01:45:54.620 Remember?

01:45:55.020 There's, like, a hot moment where everyone's like,

01:45:56.180 oh, Tim Paul-Lensy.

01:45:56.780 Oh, poor Tim Paul-Lensy.

01:45:57.160 I like Tim Paul-Lensy, but come on.

01:45:58.520 You remember?

01:45:59.040 Okay, but what about, like, an outsider like Stephen A?

01:46:03.360 Okay, first of all, I really like Stephen A.

01:46:04.620 As a human, Stephen A's great.

01:46:06.060 We all like him.

01:46:07.280 But a Democrat.

01:46:08.440 And so Stephen A, no.

01:46:10.640 He's moderate.

01:46:11.740 He's diverse.

01:46:13.000 He's from the outside.

01:46:14.560 He's very good on camera.

01:46:15.640 That would be fun.

01:46:16.280 I would love it.

01:46:16.940 With love.

01:46:17.540 With love.

01:46:18.580 No?

01:46:20.200 What do you mean?

01:46:20.620 To run as a Democrat?

01:46:21.880 We could do no better.

01:46:23.160 On Team Blue,

01:46:23.660 like, to get a normie running as a Democrat,

01:46:26.420 where, like, our worst-case scenario is Stephen A?

01:46:28.400 I feel like that's pretty good.

01:46:29.480 I totally agree with this.

01:46:30.540 Totally agree with this.

01:46:31.760 Vance is going to be the next president,

01:46:33.160 no matter what happens.

01:46:34.020 Vance.

01:46:34.620 Vance and Rubio.

01:46:36.060 Okay, so here's a question for you.

01:46:37.420 Unbeatable.

01:46:37.980 Unbeatable.

01:46:38.220 Here's a question.

01:46:39.340 If it's Vance, how does it happen?

01:46:42.140 Like, do they do a convention?

01:46:44.020 Does Trump, like, pass a baton?

01:46:46.100 Well, I think that, I mean, the hot rumor is

01:46:48.540 that Rubio's going to sign on as Vance's VP

01:46:50.560 right after the midterms, basically.

01:46:53.820 Right?

01:46:54.100 And then that makes a lot of sort of political sense for Marco.

01:46:56.480 Right?

01:46:56.560 There are a lot of people who are trying to say

01:46:57.700 that the Secretary of State should run against Vance.

01:47:00.440 If you're just doing a game theory thing here,

01:47:01.960 it doesn't make a lot of sense for Rubio to do that.

01:47:03.440 If he runs against Vance and he loses in the primaries,

01:47:05.460 he's toast.

01:47:05.720 We did the laugher curve, and now we're doing the game theory.

01:47:08.200 Okay, keep going.

01:47:08.860 If you're evaluating his options, what you would figure is

01:47:11.200 he runs against Vance, he loses, and now he's toast.

01:47:13.580 He runs against Vance, and then Vance doesn't pick him for VP,

01:47:17.160 and then Vance becomes president, he's toast.

01:47:19.100 The only way that works out for him is somehow if he finishes second,

01:47:21.520 but he's better off then even if Vance picks him as VP and then loses.

01:47:24.220 So that's definitely Rubio's best option.

01:47:26.800 So I think they probably run a combined ticket.

01:47:28.760 I think they foreclose primaries.

01:47:29.760 I think no primaries.

01:47:30.440 But if they sort of come out and say,

01:47:32.960 we'd love to be president and vice president,

01:47:35.380 and this is looking at the...

01:47:36.160 How is that going to resolve it?

01:47:38.640 There are other very ambitious Republicans in the Trump administration

01:47:42.360 who might have a problem with it.

01:47:43.800 There are plenty of people who want to be president,

01:47:46.740 like every United States senator, every governor, everyone basically.

01:47:50.660 But who's got the juice to do it?

01:47:53.380 You know, I mean, you make the point, Ben,

01:47:54.980 that maybe Newsom is kind of like DeSantis was in 24,

01:47:58.460 and I see it, but the difference is there was Trump.

01:48:02.860 And really, I know there was a primary in 2024.

01:48:05.380 I love... DeSantis is great. I love DeSantis.

01:48:07.180 I never really thought for even two seconds

01:48:08.960 that there was seriously a primary.

01:48:11.100 Trump was a fait accompli.

01:48:12.640 He was the man.

01:48:13.620 He was the one they were prosecuting.

01:48:15.080 He was the one they were raiding his hat.

01:48:16.540 He was the man, you know, and they jilted him,

01:48:18.300 and he's just this world historic figure.

01:48:20.300 There's nothing even close to that on the left right now.

01:48:24.040 And so, as a result, Trump remains the man.

01:48:27.360 He's basically endorsed that ticket of Vance Rubio.

01:48:31.060 And I think it is...

01:48:32.000 Look, you know, there are plenty of people

01:48:33.860 who want to repeal the 22nd Amendment,

01:48:35.740 name Donald to be, you know,

01:48:37.760 Donaldus Magnus, Emperor I.

01:48:39.700 Donaldus.

01:48:40.220 Have it passed to Baron Octavian Augustus Trump,

01:48:43.200 and, you know, so on and so forth.

01:48:44.840 Assuming that doesn't happen,

01:48:46.500 Trump can crown Vance and Rubio,

01:48:48.760 and I think that's the end of the story.

01:48:50.060 Oh, all right, all right.

01:48:50.580 But now I have a question for you.

01:48:51.580 Okay, I have another question for you.

01:48:53.020 Because we are, what, we're in November of 2025,

01:48:56.340 so it's a long time before the actual race kicks in.

01:48:59.580 And in between now and then,

01:49:01.120 we might have the tariff scheme collapse,

01:49:04.720 depending on how the Supreme Court rules.

01:49:06.980 It was ambiguous yesterday.

01:49:08.300 It wasn't perfectly clear two days ago

01:49:09.800 that it's going to go Trump's way.

01:49:11.600 We might have eliminated the filibuster,

01:49:16.160 which will be extremely controversial.

01:49:19.960 And you're in favor of it?

01:49:22.820 The time has come.

01:49:23.940 I would say, if you ask me, the time has come.

01:49:26.320 You have to do it.

01:49:27.760 And actually, the proof of it, look,

01:49:29.280 I'm like a big defender of the filibuster

01:49:30.980 and standards and norms and slowing things down.

01:49:33.220 I've loved the filibuster,

01:49:34.540 but politics is applying eternal principles

01:49:36.420 to changing circumstances.

01:49:38.180 The Democrats will do it.

01:49:39.420 There is no question.

01:49:40.360 The only reason they didn't last time

01:49:41.680 is because of Manchin and Sinema.

01:49:43.000 They're gone.

01:49:44.100 These are people who celebrated

01:49:45.560 when the most prominent proponent

01:49:47.680 of civil debate in America

01:49:48.520 was assassinated in 4K.

01:49:50.240 These people will stop at nothing.

01:49:52.420 And you get a real advantage

01:49:53.580 if you're the party to do it first.

01:49:54.860 They've been creeping toward it for years.

01:49:56.720 It pains me to say it.

01:49:57.780 I kind of like the filibuster in principle.

01:49:59.780 Do it.

01:50:01.360 Nuclear option.

01:50:02.720 To quote George W. Bush,

01:50:04.180 nuclear, get rid of the filibuster.

01:50:05.900 I have sort of a happy medium.

01:50:08.160 counterproposal,

01:50:08.600 and it was actually put forward

01:50:09.240 by our friend Jeremy Boring.

01:50:10.620 I thought it was quite brilliant.

01:50:11.720 What he suggested is that

01:50:12.840 what Republicans should do,

01:50:13.800 he said this a year ago,

01:50:15.340 what Republicans should do

01:50:16.300 is they should say to Democrats,

01:50:18.200 let's do a constitutional amendment

01:50:19.640 to enshrine the filibuster permanently,

01:50:21.780 and if you won't do it,

01:50:22.860 then we'll nuke it.

01:50:23.920 I like that.

01:50:24.960 Because that's like,

01:50:25.640 okay, either we're all on board

01:50:26.540 or nobody's on board.

01:50:27.380 We're not going to play this

01:50:28.080 kind of take them on faith game,

01:50:29.220 which I think is quite smart.

01:50:30.580 I am terrified about the loss

01:50:32.420 of minority rights in the Senate.

01:50:34.160 I agree with you.

01:50:34.820 Our team is going to be there soon enough,

01:50:36.540 and we are going to be terrified

01:50:37.960 at what those Dems are going to do to us.

01:50:39.540 It does give a big advantage

01:50:41.420 to having a president

01:50:42.940 who is of a different party

01:50:44.300 than the Senate,

01:50:45.180 which the public will catch on to eventually,

01:50:47.360 so he can start to veto bills.

01:50:49.480 It's going to mean,

01:50:50.260 a lot more of things getting stuck in Congress,

01:50:56.020 which I'm totally in favor of.

01:50:57.700 The less they can do,

01:50:59.140 the more I like it.

01:50:59.540 Well, that's the thing.

01:51:00.260 I mean, that was built in by the founders.

01:51:02.060 They didn't want things

01:51:02.680 to move quickly through the Senate.

01:51:03.820 They wanted conflict.

01:51:04.880 They wanted it to take forever.

01:51:06.120 They wanted it to be really hard

01:51:07.060 to pass legislation.

01:51:08.620 They thought it would lead to strong-arming

01:51:11.480 and trying to get bipartisan compromises done,

01:51:14.400 and we just don't do that anymore.

01:51:15.460 I think it's related to Citizens United,

01:51:17.300 where money talks,

01:51:18.960 and that's what everybody answers to.

01:51:20.440 Who got them elected,

01:51:21.460 and what do they want?

01:51:22.480 They don't compromise anymore.

01:51:23.900 So maybe you're right.

01:51:24.640 Maybe different circumstances

01:51:25.780 require different measures,

01:51:26.800 but I really do not favor

01:51:28.580 getting rid of the filibuster.

01:51:30.460 What do you guys think?

01:51:30.960 Do you want to get rid of the filibuster?

01:51:33.660 Or no?

01:51:34.360 How many who do not want to do it?

01:51:35.920 These are very wise, good-looking people.

01:51:37.940 They understand.

01:51:38.940 This is...

01:51:39.820 Nuke it.

01:51:44.080 They got a lot of that.

01:51:45.100 The Marxists will destroy us.

01:51:46.540 No paying for Congress.

01:51:47.060 Don't pay Congress through the shutdown

01:51:48.620 I heard out there.

01:51:49.720 It makes perfect sense.

01:51:51.300 Whatever, maybe.

01:51:52.560 So what is the biggest threat

01:51:54.080 to a J.D. Vance-Marco Rubio ticket

01:51:56.780 actually winning?

01:51:59.540 What was the biggest...

01:52:00.240 What's the biggest threat

01:52:00.960 to them actually winning?

01:52:01.720 The biggest threat

01:52:01.960 is an economic downturn.

01:52:03.000 It is not even close.

01:52:04.280 So I'm very, very uneasy

01:52:07.380 about the state of the economy right now.

01:52:09.160 In fact, I think the best thing

01:52:10.120 that could happen for the president

01:52:11.080 is likely the Supreme Court

01:52:12.200 striking down the tariffs.

01:52:13.480 If that were to happen,

01:52:14.680 then what you will actually see

01:52:16.340 is some reduction in prices.

01:52:18.240 You will see an explosion

01:52:19.340 in investment

01:52:19.940 not in the top of the market.

01:52:21.500 Right now...

01:52:22.240 Sorry, I don't know why

01:52:22.800 your mic's doing that.

01:52:23.160 I'm not sure why.

01:52:24.340 Right now,

01:52:25.200 virtually all gains

01:52:26.060 in the stock market

01:52:26.720 are going to Magnificent Seven,

01:52:27.960 those top seven stocks.

01:52:28.940 If you take out the gains

01:52:30.020 from the Magnificent Seven,

01:52:31.080 the stock market has been flat

01:52:32.060 for several years at this point.

01:52:33.660 Everyone in the investment community

01:52:35.020 is pouring money into AI,

01:52:36.760 and I don't think

01:52:37.900 it's going to pay off

01:52:38.820 the way they think

01:52:39.180 it's going to pay off.

01:52:39.740 I think AI is a bubble.

01:52:40.580 I think that Trump

01:52:42.040 is doing something

01:52:42.960 really visionary,

01:52:44.220 and I'm not sure he's doing it

01:52:46.040 according to a philosophy

01:52:47.560 or just instinctively,

01:52:49.160 but I think he is rearranging

01:52:50.540 the American economy

01:52:51.460 to be able to face off

01:52:52.600 with China,

01:52:53.500 which is going to be huge

01:52:54.980 in about three years,

01:52:56.120 if not shorter.

01:52:57.620 The problem is,

01:52:58.720 as he's doing that,

01:52:59.800 he's not paying attention

01:53:00.780 to this one thing

01:53:01.920 that always is a president's layer,

01:53:04.640 which is inflation,

01:53:06.100 and he has not paid attention

01:53:07.340 to that,

01:53:07.800 and so the economy,

01:53:08.640 it's hard to read the economy.

01:53:09.520 His numbers are bad on it.

01:53:10.620 Yeah.

01:53:11.040 It's really bad.

01:53:11.780 So he's getting blamed

01:53:12.660 for Bidenflation, basically,

01:53:14.160 and that's what I think

01:53:14.860 had, it played into

01:53:16.020 a little bit in that election,

01:53:17.460 not as much as people say,

01:53:19.180 but I think that that's the thing.

01:53:20.800 Will he turn at some point

01:53:22.240 and say,

01:53:23.120 we've got to bring down prices,

01:53:24.380 we've got to stop it,

01:53:25.160 because inflation is not high,

01:53:26.500 but prices are not going up.

01:53:26.520 He has to at least look

01:53:27.900 like that's his number one priority.

01:53:30.000 Yes, absolutely.

01:53:30.440 And right now,

01:53:31.000 he doesn't look like that.

01:53:32.300 That's why people are punishing him,

01:53:33.720 and all of us,

01:53:34.840 with people like Epical Spamberger.

01:53:37.560 I call her Melba.

01:53:39.000 She's Melba Toast.

01:53:40.500 I told her,

01:53:40.820 how did they elect Melba

01:53:42.120 in Virginia,

01:53:43.320 of all places,

01:53:44.320 and not to get us started

01:53:45.400 on Jay Jones, right?

01:53:46.800 I mean,

01:53:47.000 let's end it on this,

01:53:48.940 and you can use my mic

01:53:49.800 to answer it,

01:53:50.460 but where do we stand now

01:53:52.980 when we've actually seen,

01:53:54.400 here, I'll take it,

01:53:55.000 yeah,

01:53:55.140 I don't know why

01:53:55.500 that's not working.

01:53:57.440 Where do we stand now

01:53:58.760 when two months

01:54:00.460 after Charlie's assassinated,

01:54:02.120 the Democrats have elected

01:54:04.280 somebody who's calling

01:54:04.920 for assassinations

01:54:06.360 of Republicans

01:54:06.840 and their children?

01:54:07.640 Like,

01:54:07.900 how do we ever

01:54:09.900 get along with these people?

01:54:11.540 Do we try to get along

01:54:12.500 with these people?

01:54:13.260 Do we have dinners

01:54:13.860 with these people?

01:54:14.460 Do we try to compromise

01:54:15.500 with these people?

01:54:16.200 Do we just steamroll

01:54:17.040 these people,

01:54:17.680 and do everything in our power

01:54:18.780 to get Republicans elected here?

01:54:19.980 So, you know,

01:54:22.780 I think that we should define

01:54:24.460 who these people are

01:54:25.560 because obviously

01:54:26.080 I don't think

01:54:26.440 every single Democrat

01:54:27.220 is a person

01:54:27.700 who wants to slit our throats.

01:54:29.060 I mean,

01:54:29.260 I think we all have

01:54:29.780 extended family members

01:54:30.740 who are Democrats,

01:54:31.780 I'm sure we all have friends

01:54:32.640 who we work with

01:54:33.280 who have voted the other way,

01:54:35.060 but there are certainly

01:54:36.640 an enormous number of people.

01:54:37.600 You're just too close to me,

01:54:38.420 dude.

01:54:38.520 Move away.

01:54:39.180 I want to get closer to you.

01:54:40.260 I want to get closer.

01:54:41.560 I don't know.

01:54:42.400 I know,

01:54:42.920 you're like Clavin with AOC.

01:54:44.240 I don't know what's going on right now.

01:54:45.160 But it seems to me

01:54:54.080 that when we talk about they,

01:54:57.040 one of the big obstacles

01:54:57.940 to the possibility

01:54:58.800 of a comedy in politics

01:55:01.020 of people getting along

01:55:01.960 is being too broad

01:55:02.960 about who we're labeling.

01:55:04.000 There for sure

01:55:04.560 is a segment of Democrats

01:55:05.680 who absolutely 100% celebrated

01:55:07.800 Charlie Kirk's murder.

01:55:08.720 We all saw it.

01:55:09.640 We all know who they were.

01:55:10.760 That's absolutely true.

01:55:12.160 I don't think

01:55:12.660 every single person

01:55:13.520 who voted for Jay Jones

01:55:15.140 was celebratory about his text

01:55:16.920 in the same way

01:55:17.520 that I think that people

01:55:18.800 when they vote

01:55:19.340 tend to overlook terrible things

01:55:21.220 that their own side has done

01:55:22.000 when they get into a binary race

01:55:23.180 with another side.

01:55:24.260 Again,

01:55:24.540 that's not an excuse

01:55:25.100 for voting for Jay Jones

01:55:25.940 who is a complete

01:55:26.700 and utter piece of shit.

01:55:28.080 But that is to say

01:55:29.900 I'm hesitant to malign

01:55:31.380 every single person

01:55:32.240 who votes in an election

01:55:33.380 in one way

01:55:33.860 by saying

01:55:34.360 that's the reason they voted

01:55:35.680 for that specific thing.

01:55:37.660 And so I think

01:55:38.100 that it's incumbent on everybody

01:55:39.220 to basically right and left

01:55:40.820 say that people

01:55:42.240 who do violence,

01:55:43.360 obviously,

01:55:43.840 are doing acts of evil

01:55:46.120 and it's evil.

01:55:47.280 And honestly,

01:55:48.380 before the Jay Jones,

01:55:49.060 before Charlie's murder,

01:55:50.620 I think that you saw

01:55:51.480 this bizarre moment

01:55:52.320 when Luigi Mangione

01:55:53.380 murdered the United Healthcare CEO

01:55:55.120 where there were a group of people

01:55:56.760 on both right and left.

01:55:57.760 It was almost entirely left,

01:55:59.120 but there were some people

01:55:59.700 on sort of the populist right even

01:56:00.940 who were saying,

01:56:01.660 well, you know,

01:56:02.000 healthcare really is a problem.

01:56:03.180 We should understand his points.

01:56:04.560 It was like,

01:56:04.860 no, we should absolutely not.

01:56:06.760 We absolutely should not.

01:56:08.240 And these permission structures

01:56:09.460 for violence

01:56:10.040 really need to end.

01:56:11.880 Yeah, I certainly agree.

01:56:16.140 I know it's fashionable

01:56:17.220 to say we need to hear all voices

01:56:18.940 and we just need

01:56:19.780 a totally open marketplace

01:56:20.760 of ideas,

01:56:21.400 but I'm a conservative man.

01:56:22.920 You know,

01:56:23.180 I'm pretty traditional

01:56:23.980 and I just don't agree with that.

01:56:25.680 I think that we need

01:56:26.880 to get much more serious

01:56:28.340 about standards

01:56:29.320 and norms

01:56:29.900 in the country.

01:56:31.120 So when someone

01:56:32.100 is threatening people,

01:56:33.560 that's not protected speech.

01:56:34.740 When someone's seriously

01:56:36.440 inciting violence,

01:56:37.400 they're all manner of speech

01:56:38.220 that are not protected.

01:56:39.020 Fraud, obscenity,

01:56:40.220 fighting words.

01:56:41.200 And so when that happens,

01:56:43.160 we need to prosecute that.

01:56:45.120 That's prosecutable

01:56:46.220 for a reason.

01:56:47.400 I'll go further though.

01:56:49.140 When, you know,

01:56:49.840 I like a thriving marketplace

01:56:51.000 of ideas,

01:56:51.760 but you can't have

01:56:52.400 a marketplace of ideas

01:56:53.460 or any other thing

01:56:54.300 if bandits keep shooting

01:56:55.680 up the marketplace.

01:56:56.880 And so, you know,

01:56:57.760 we saw after Charlie

01:56:58.680 was murdered,

01:56:59.580 it was people

01:57:00.980 who are very liberal

01:57:01.760 were eight times as likely

01:57:02.920 to defend political violence

01:57:04.180 as people who are

01:57:04.760 very conservative.

01:57:05.800 Almost 30% of young liberals

01:57:07.360 would justify political violence.

01:57:09.500 Many, many times

01:57:10.460 what you saw

01:57:10.940 for young conservatives.

01:57:12.400 This is not sustainable.

01:57:13.860 And so the people,

01:57:15.080 whether they be in Congress,

01:57:16.220 whether they be on TV,

01:57:17.260 whether they be that girl

01:57:18.160 you went to high school

01:57:18.860 with on Facebook,

01:57:20.020 if they are defending

01:57:21.120 and celebrating

01:57:21.800 the murder of an innocent man

01:57:23.200 who just wanted

01:57:23.980 to talk it out,

01:57:25.000 they need to be ostracized

01:57:26.660 from society.

01:57:27.620 They need to lose their jobs

01:57:29.000 in many cases.

01:57:30.360 They need to be excluded

01:57:31.800 from polite society.

01:57:33.000 I'm with William F. Buckley Jr.

01:57:35.340 I love William F. Buckley Jr.

01:57:36.680 One time he was having

01:57:37.440 a debate on Firing Line

01:57:38.520 with a guy named Leo Churn.

01:57:40.220 And Churn said,

01:57:40.800 well, Mr. Buckley,

01:57:41.960 I think we can all agree

01:57:42.740 an open society

01:57:44.220 is conducive

01:57:45.160 to all that we want.

01:57:46.300 And Buckley,

01:57:46.800 in his really like Buckley way,

01:57:48.000 sort of over this way,

01:57:49.240 he said,

01:57:49.680 I don't agree with that.

01:57:51.040 He said,

01:57:51.320 I want society

01:57:52.060 to be considerably

01:57:52.820 more closed.

01:57:54.180 You know,

01:57:54.620 I'm an epistemological optimist.

01:57:56.900 I see no reason

01:57:58.000 to defend the speech

01:57:59.300 of a Nazi or a communist.

01:58:00.840 And I'm with Buckley

01:58:01.740 and I think we ought to do it.

01:58:03.680 I actually think

01:58:06.500 it's free speech

01:58:08.040 that's going to save us.

01:58:09.240 I think the thing

01:58:09.860 that happened

01:58:10.660 after Charlie,

01:58:12.020 it was immediately exposed.

01:58:14.020 The violence of the left

01:58:15.440 has been hidden

01:58:16.220 and masqueraded

01:58:17.720 by the press.

01:58:19.320 That power is gone.

01:58:20.600 They have lost that power.

01:58:22.040 And as long as we can

01:58:23.060 disprove what they're saying

01:58:24.720 in real time,

01:58:25.580 which we now can,

01:58:26.660 people are going to see

01:58:27.420 pretty soon

01:58:27.980 who is calling for death,

01:58:29.680 who's calling for murder.

01:58:30.420 But aren't they going

01:58:30.800 to elect Jay Jones too?

01:58:32.400 You know,

01:58:33.100 I'm not so sure about that.

01:58:34.860 You know,

01:58:35.240 there's so much goes

01:58:35.980 into these local elections

01:58:37.120 that I think,

01:58:38.220 you know,

01:58:38.440 he kind of rode to power

01:58:39.800 on the coattails

01:58:42.440 of the governor.

01:58:43.180 But the polls do show

01:58:44.520 that some 30%

01:58:46.340 of liberals

01:58:48.060 think political violence

01:58:50.060 is appropriate

01:58:50.700 in some circumstances.

01:58:51.780 Absolutely.

01:58:52.260 But I think

01:58:52.640 as that comes out,

01:58:53.740 they're going to start

01:58:54.340 losing more elections.

01:58:55.720 I'm actually really,

01:58:56.880 I hate to say it,

01:58:57.820 but I'm actually really optimistic

01:58:58.920 about what's about to happen

01:58:59.960 and what's happening now.

01:59:00.840 I know.

01:59:01.300 I know.

01:59:01.660 You're the one?

01:59:02.380 Is it because of Sidney Sweeney?

01:59:03.480 As I've said many times

01:59:04.340 about Clavin,

01:59:05.340 as Clavin draws closer

01:59:06.860 to the death,

01:59:07.420 he sees more light.

01:59:11.080 I've got 10 minutes left,

01:59:12.320 you guys.

01:59:12.680 Listen,

01:59:13.060 I've got to say this.

01:59:14.820 I think,

01:59:15.140 like,

01:59:15.380 everybody here

01:59:16.020 has really stepped up

01:59:17.460 in the wake

01:59:17.880 of Charlie's assassination.

01:59:19.260 I've watched you guys do it,

01:59:20.320 and we've done it ourselves,

01:59:21.980 and that is something

01:59:23.380 I feel really hopeful about.

01:59:24.540 Like,

01:59:24.800 everybody on our side

01:59:26.040 of the aisle,

01:59:26.660 and all of you

01:59:27.520 in showing up here tonight,

01:59:28.920 said,

01:59:29.880 F that.

01:59:30.580 We will not be silenced.

01:59:31.920 We will not start

01:59:32.500 talking about these ideas.

01:59:33.720 We'll say and double

01:59:34.700 and triple down

01:59:35.340 on all of our

01:59:36.260 most controversial thoughts

01:59:37.920 just the way Charlie

01:59:38.560 would have wanted,

01:59:39.180 and I think

01:59:39.560 he would be really proud

01:59:40.820 that we're all here

01:59:41.400 together tonight.

01:59:42.880 Thank you.

01:59:43.480 Thank you, guys.

01:59:44.460 So grateful.

01:59:45.260 Thanks a lot.

01:59:45.640 Thank you, Megan.

01:59:46.200 Thank you to all of you.

01:59:47.500 Thank you.

01:59:47.980 We love you.

01:59:49.760 Thank you, Jacksonville.

01:59:51.600 To be continued.

01:59:52.500 Thank you.

01:59:57.420 Thanks for listening

01:59:58.500 to The Megan Kelly Show.

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02:00:19.940 that joy comes

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02:00:38.580 Boarding for flight 246

02:00:39.880 to Toronto

02:00:40.320 is delayed 50 minutes.

02:00:41.260 Ugh, what?

02:00:43.600 Sounds like Ojo time.

02:00:45.320 Play Ojo?

02:00:46.020 Great idea!

02:00:47.340 Feel the fun

02:00:47.860 with all the latest slots

02:00:48.860 in live casino games

02:00:49.760 and with no wagering requirements,

02:00:51.300 what you win

02:00:51.700 is yours to keep.

02:00:52.680 Groovy.

02:00:53.200 Hey, I won!

02:00:54.960 Feel the fun

02:00:56.180 Play Ojo

02:00:57.560 Boarding will begin

02:00:58.880 when passenger Fisher

02:00:59.740 is done celebrating.

02:01:01.220 19 Plus Ontario only,

02:01:02.280 please play responsibly.

02:01:03.140 Concerned about your gambling

02:01:03.860 or that of someone close to you?

02:01:04.860 Call 1-866-531-2600

02:01:06.520 or visit

02:01:06.980 connectontario.ca

The Megyn Kelly Show - November 07, 2025

Ben Shapiro Responds to Tucker Carlson, Plus Sydney Sweeney and Newsom, with Michael Knowles and Andrew Klavan - ＂Megyn Kelly Live＂ in FL ｜ Ep. 1189

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