The Megyn Kelly Show - Best of the Week： Harris Picks Radical Walz, Males Dominate Women's Boxing, Inside the Supreme Court

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00:00:30.720 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:32.540 Live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at noon east.

00:00:42.040 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:00:43.640 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:44.940 And today's weekend best of special.

00:00:47.760 Another busy week in the world of politics.

00:00:49.400 Oh gosh, it's never ending, right?

00:00:51.220 But it's kind of cool and interesting.

00:00:53.100 But cringey.

00:00:53.980 There's so much.

00:00:55.340 As the Democrats made their vice presidential selection

00:00:57.960 and we were sold a bunch of nonsense.

00:01:00.900 It was a bit of a surprise.

00:01:03.100 And when the news broke that Kamala Harris had picked Minnesota Governor Tim Walls, 0.95

00:01:06.500 we brought on Rich Lowry and Bhatia Angersargan for instant analysis

00:01:10.120 about this guy's truly radical policies.

00:01:13.480 Well, he's just folksy, we're told.

00:01:15.680 Cool dad.

00:01:17.460 I guess with her wine mom or aunt.

00:01:20.520 Sure.

00:01:20.980 Okay.

00:01:21.480 But it was more serious than that.

00:01:23.360 And this week we also had on the veteran who replaced Tim Walls

00:01:27.300 in what should have been Walls' 2005 combat deployment to Iraq,

00:01:31.420 but wasn't because Walls quit on the National Guard knowing that they were getting deployed.

00:01:37.580 He was the commander.

00:01:38.140 It was his unit.

00:01:39.800 He sent them off with a SIA. 0.94

00:01:42.520 This guy told me, his name is Tom Behrens, 0.80

00:01:45.460 why Tim Walls, in his view, is a traitor and a deserter.

00:01:49.640 I also talked to Supreme Court Justice Neil Gorsuch

00:01:52.760 to give some behind-the-scenes details about the life and work going on at the Supreme Court

00:01:58.680 and why we have too many laws in America. 0.97

00:02:02.280 We got into some really interesting ones.

00:02:03.840 And just the way our government harasses us all, how did we let it get like this?

00:02:09.940 Neil Gorsuch has answers.

00:02:12.380 And I asked him about that moment that Trump was almost assassinated.

00:02:16.500 Trump's the one who appointed him.

00:02:17.600 It was an interesting exchange.

00:02:19.500 Plus, I set the record straight about the men competing in women's boxing in the Olympics.

00:02:26.200 You are all being gaslit.

00:02:28.500 Yes, these are two males and it's outrageous.

00:02:31.880 Thanks for watching.

00:02:32.580 See you Monday.

00:02:33.840 You know, Baji, I'm thinking about the imagery, right?

00:02:38.380 You've got, you know, former Marine and he did deploy.

00:02:42.660 Young guy, you know, Semper Fae, you heard the whole thing. 0.94

00:02:46.180 And on the other hand, you have Tim Walls, who did serve for 20 years as National Guardsman,

00:02:50.320 but has this significant black mark at the end of it.

00:02:54.520 And who's, you know, effectively running to be stand-in for Commander-in-Chief.

00:02:58.720 And as we're seeing right now in real time, being in the VP role actually can foist you

00:03:03.880 into that role, whether officially or unofficially, sooner than expected.

00:03:09.300 Meanwhile, and the reason I think it's interesting in addition is because I mentioned in the intro,

00:03:15.260 Tim Waltz changed the Minnesota flag to look almost exactly like the Somali flag.

00:03:19.400 I mean, it's a dead ringer for the flag of Somalia.

00:03:23.080 It's got the highest population of Somalis than any other state in America.

00:03:27.760 And you look at Kamala Harris's website.

00:03:31.180 We noticed this the other day.

00:03:32.560 Good luck finding an American flag on there.

00:03:34.980 Good luck finding one policy, one, nothing.

00:03:41.380 You know what it is?

00:03:42.540 It's LGBTQ pride merch.

00:03:46.560 That's what's on her website.

00:03:48.120 You go to the Trump website, it's covered in American flags.

00:03:52.400 His motto is make America great again.

00:03:55.420 It's his campaign slogan.

00:03:56.540 He's got his former Marine out there.

00:03:58.880 They talk about America and their love of country at every turn.

00:04:02.660 And so I do see this dividing pretty quickly into the pair that loves America and what it stands for and the pair that doesn't.

00:04:13.480 Yeah, on the policy front, it really is amazing.

00:04:16.280 Of course, which policies should she put on her website?

00:04:18.880 The ones that she held a year ago or five years ago or 20 years ago or five minutes ago, right?

00:04:23.360 She's such a flip flopper that it would be very hard to pin her down. 1.00

00:04:26.540 The split screen is very, very significant here.

00:04:30.320 You have Kamala Harris reportedly choosing the less charismatic, less challenging of the potential mates, whereas Donald Trump went for a man who is clearly going to be the standard bearer for the future of the MAGA movement.

00:04:46.140 You have the Harris agenda, which amounts to basically a yossification campaign, right? 0.92

00:04:52.860 A yossqueening, right, to the top with no actual policy.

00:04:56.820 And then you have Donald Trump's record on the economic front that really made working class Americans feel like they had a shot at the American dream again.

00:05:06.500 You have the Democrats caving to the elites in their party, you know, President Obama, George Clooney, Nancy Pelosi effectively choosing the next president on their ticket as opposed to the voters.

00:05:19.940 And then you have Donald Trump again and again sidelining the elites in his party, whether it's Project 2025 or whether it's the donor class who picked Nikki Haley, right?

00:05:30.320 There are really two visions for the future of America at stake here.

00:05:35.540 One of them says, I'm going to be a perfect reflection of my voter base.

00:05:40.520 I'm going to represent the multi-ethnic, multi-racial working class.

00:05:44.260 And they're shot at the American dream.

00:05:46.440 And the other side says, no, I'm going to reflect no policy.

00:05:49.900 I'm simply going to be a reflection of, you know, elite energy, right?

00:05:56.080 Elite vibes discourse, right?

00:05:58.480 Exactly.

00:05:59.080 Elite vibes, the vibes that the elites want to see out there and hope to trick the American people into going along with it.

00:06:08.120 But, you know, this selection, Rich, in a way telegraphs exactly which Kamala Harris we're dealing with.

00:06:12.900 Is she the 19 one who proposed getting rid of private health insurance and who wanted to ban fracking and all the things over the border?

00:06:20.620 All of it.

00:06:21.180 Is that her?

00:06:21.880 Or is she this new moderate as the campaign written statements have suggested that she's reversed herself on all of that?

00:06:28.560 We have yet to hear from her at all.

00:06:31.160 This selection tells us everything we need to know.

00:06:33.260 This guy, Walt, we just went through the list.

00:06:35.940 Okay, first of all, Minnesota schools have dropped from 7th in the nation to 19th under his gubernatorial reign.

00:06:45.220 He wants driver's licenses for all illegals. 0.93

00:06:48.560 He wants free tuition for all illegals. 0.92

00:06:50.700 He wants free health care.

00:06:51.800 Has provided, not just wants, has provided free health care for all illegals.

00:06:55.720 And as I said in the intro, free is not free.

00:06:58.020 He wants to make Minnesota a sanctuary state.

00:07:00.100 It's not yet.

00:07:00.940 But he's on record saying, yes, I would like that.

00:07:02.960 That makes sense to me.

00:07:03.700 Um, he has supported the Biden-Harris economic agenda.

00:07:08.680 And here's the capper.

00:07:11.460 He's as radical as we can get on the trans and children issue.

00:07:16.660 He is Gavin Newsom with white hair.

00:07:19.800 That's who Tim Waltz is.

00:07:21.540 He signed an executive order that says the state can take your child away from you, away from you.

00:07:29.980 Um, if you don't quote, affirm their gender identity, meaning they say they're a girl when they're really a boy.

00:07:37.380 And make sure they can get access to puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones, and surgeries, chopping off their healthy body parts. 0.94

00:07:46.620 If your 13 or 14-year-old comes home and says, I want to be castrated, and you say no, Tim Waltz wants the state to take your kid away from you.

00:07:57.200 That's as radical as we have anywhere in the world on this issue, Rich.

00:08:02.800 Yeah, just shocking.

00:08:05.540 And to the 2019 point, Tim Waltz would have been totally comfortable in that primary, right?

00:08:11.140 He wouldn't have had to change any of the positions he has now, right?

00:08:13.860 Kamala became more left, and now she's telling she isn't anymore. 0.99

00:08:17.760 Waltz is still with all those 2019 positions.

00:08:21.180 And ultimately, you know, it's Kamala's positions that matter more, but the case you can make against her is that this reflects her values, this reflects where she really is.

00:08:30.140 And the idea that the state is going to be weaponized against parents who want their disturbed or ill children who have gender dysphoria to be treated in a rational way where you try to wait it out and hope it's a phase that passes rather than introducing these radical measures that, you know, Western Europe, UK are now rejecting because there's no science behind them whatsoever.

00:08:54.940 And we still have it in America and in the heartland.

00:08:58.380 That's stunning.

00:08:59.400 It'll be part of the case against him.

00:09:01.840 And J.D. Vance was already making it this afternoon.

00:09:04.560 But look, Batya, at how the media is already rolling out the red carpet for this guy.

00:09:10.200 Get used to this because we're going to have three more months just like it.

00:09:15.020 Take a look at SOT 9.

00:09:17.160 Waltz appears to fit the all-American definition of a man from middle America.

00:09:21.680 High school teacher, football coach, member of the Army National Guard before becoming a member of Congress and now governor.

00:09:29.120 Exactly.

00:09:29.700 He really has that perfect back story.

00:09:31.700 He's the one, George, remember, who labeled J.D. Vance and his Republican allies as, quote, weird, which gained a lot of steam with the Harris campaign.

00:09:39.120 He has this folksy, personal, informal vibe that has really appealed to a lot of Democrats.

00:09:44.740 And they believe that his rural back story, the fact that he was a former member of the NRA, as you say, he is this high school, former high school teacher, he was a football coach, that this can help appeal to those independent swing state voters.

00:09:58.700 Independent swing state voters, Batya, they're going to love him because he's folksy and was once a member of the NRA.

00:10:06.080 The media thinks that because they don't care about policy, because they are rich and elites and don't have to worry about pocketbook issues or issues like, you know, what's going on with their kids in public schools because their kids are on private school.

00:10:25.480 Right. Therefore, the only thing that matters is, does somebody give off a folksy vibe?

00:10:33.560 Right. What is their backstory?

00:10:35.260 Same thing with Kamala Harris. 1.00

00:10:36.740 They don't care what she represents.

00:10:38.640 They only care what she looks like. 1.00

00:10:41.140 Right. They only care about the story because they are not facing the kinds of struggles that average Americans are struggling with every single day.

00:10:50.540 Now, Walls did do some things that are, you know, pretty good for working class Americans.

00:10:55.660 You know, he established a standard for nursing homes.

00:10:58.400 Very important.

00:10:59.700 He banned non-compete clauses.

00:11:01.860 Very important for working class Americans.

00:11:03.460 And he also required a certain level of transparency in warehousing, which is really important for Amazon workers.

00:11:10.580 This is all stuff that really matters and stuff that, you know, Republicans really need to be paying attention to because that is the only threat that he actually represents.

00:11:18.780 And honestly, it's clear that that is not what they are putting.

00:11:22.880 That is not the basket they're putting their eggs in.

00:11:25.080 Right. He's not being trotted out as somebody who's good for workers.

00:11:28.240 He's not being trotted out at someone who can restore the American dream for the struggling working class.

00:11:33.680 He's being trotted out as someone who can support, you know, the Yoss Queen-ification of Kamala Harris. 0.59

00:11:40.380 And on that front, obviously, that split screen we've been talking about, I mean, how could he possibly compare to someone like J.D. Vance, one of the only people in the elites who cares about the forgotten American?

00:11:52.160 Well, let's go back to you.

00:11:58.100 It's 2005. Instead of going with the unit and being the command sergeant major in Iraq, he quits.

00:12:05.860 And what happens next to you and the other guys you're serving with?

00:12:11.800 Well, in the fall of 2004, just stepping back a little bit, when the selection process was done, I was selected to a position in DeVardy, which is Division Artillery, which is, you know, he was selected into the one of the 125 Field Artillery Battalion, which I was a member.

00:12:32.240 But we were both first sergeants together. So, you know, I went one way.

00:12:36.720 I went to DeVardy to Division. He stayed in the 125.

00:12:39.640 And when the warning order came out, the 125 ended up being part of the first brigade.

00:12:45.720 So they were the ones that were after notified that they were going to war.

00:12:50.260 And I was at Division and Division wasn't notified.

00:12:53.720 So I was kind of like, well, it must not be my time.

00:12:57.400 You know, I'm in Division. I'm I'm here.

00:13:00.740 I'm just going to keep working.

00:13:02.460 And, you know, Division gets activated.

00:13:04.100 I'll go. But that's that's what happened with that at that point.

00:13:07.640 So I really I wasn't in the 125 at that point.

00:13:10.380 One of the 125 Field Artillery.

00:13:12.180 And he was.

00:13:13.360 So when when 05 rolled around, he got notified.

00:13:17.400 I mean, they all knew what was going to happen.

00:13:19.980 I mean, it was right on the dock.

00:13:21.280 It's going to be Iraq. 1.00

00:13:22.900 The warning order was out there from March until May.

00:13:25.820 And May rolled around and the rumor came out across the state that he had he had quit, turned his stuff in and and slithered down the steps out of the armory and had quit and retired.

00:13:39.680 And and everybody was in shock because senior NCOs don't do that.

00:13:45.920 I mean, that you basically train for years and years.

00:13:49.400 You're with your soldiers.

00:13:50.580 Your soldiers are literally like your kids almost.

00:13:53.920 I mean, you've watched them grow up.

00:13:55.920 You've helped them shoot guns and learn how to do the radio stuff and, you know, fix wounds if you can and different things.

00:14:06.040 And then all of a sudden, when it's time to go.

00:14:09.220 Go do your thing with that, you quit.

00:14:11.260 I mean, that just absolutely was just it was just disgusting. 0.97

00:14:14.600 It was people were like, well, what is he, a coward, whatever. 0.65

00:14:18.360 Nobody knew what the answer was.

00:14:20.000 And then and I pretty much knew, well, I'm all because I'm a 13 Bravo artillery guy.

00:14:27.360 And, you know, and then I got the call about a not quite a month later.

00:14:32.440 I mean, it was a few weeks.

00:14:33.760 And then they, you know, they my colonel called and, you know, it was just weird.

00:14:38.360 I was out in one of my farm fields and I'm talking to him and he's like, well, you know, you're we're asking you to go.

00:14:44.500 And then there was a horseshoe laid on the ground.

00:14:46.560 And I always call it my lucky horseshoe, but other people said, how can you say that's lucky you went to war?

00:14:51.360 And I was like, oh, I got to serve my country in a greater capacity.

00:14:55.000 And I got to help protect my soldiers and do whatever I could to make the deployment as as good as it could be, because it was, you know, like you said, it was a tough time in the country.

00:15:08.140 So you went and how long was the unit deployed for?

00:15:11.880 We were gone all the way until July of 2007.

00:15:17.520 So when we started in, it was 22 months total, we had a six month train up at Camp Shelby, Mississippi, and then we ended up, we're supposed to be a year in country, we're supposed to be an 18 month deployment.

00:15:29.800 But then all the sectarian violence started in, you know, in 06, late 06, and in January of 7, and we got extended to help out.

00:15:42.600 We were involved in the surge, basically, but we were already in country.

00:15:46.320 So they just kept us in place and moved more soldiers in to try to call the violence.

00:15:52.260 Can you can you just give us a feel for how rough that time was?

00:15:58.440 I remember covering it as a reporter in 2006 was when the beheadings started.

00:16:02.620 It just started to get very, very dark, even darker than you'd expect for war.

00:16:08.260 You were there.

00:16:09.800 So were the men who had served under him.

00:16:11.820 He was supposed to be there, according to these documents.

00:16:15.340 What was it like for you guys?

00:16:16.760 Well, I, when I got home, I kind of looked at some of our ground squirrels running around and, you know, they're always on the alert.

00:16:26.180 They're looking for a hawk to fly down or a badger to dig them out of the hole.

00:16:30.980 I mean, you're always thinking you're going to tell them all when it boils down.

00:16:36.160 I mean, we didn't even, we didn't know, really, that we were going to get out of there until we got on the last Chinook to fly out.

00:16:44.300 And even then, there was stuff flying in the air at us, chasing us out of country, almost.

00:16:50.680 I mean, it was really a trying time.

00:16:53.660 And, you know, it was, it was, they are a thinking enemy. 0.99

00:16:58.440 I mean, Iran was behind all of the crap that was shot at us. 0.97

00:17:01.340 I mean, it was from the explosive form projectiles to the mortars to the Katusha rockets to the training of the people that went across the border 0.98

00:17:09.260 and then came back and then used all those tactics, techniques, and procedures against us.

00:17:14.400 I mean, they, they literally were the, you know, the, the people behind the scenes in our area.

00:17:20.140 We were Shiite areas.

00:17:21.580 So they, they were the, they were the, you know, the people killing us were the proxies of Iran. 0.99

00:17:27.800 And when Donald Trump got rid of Salami, Salami or whatever his name was, he was the architect of all the people in my area that died. 1.00

00:17:37.600 I mean, he was the, he has 3,000 people on his head, I think.

00:17:41.520 But yeah, it was a, it was a, it was a rough time.

00:17:44.700 I mean, we, we did what we could and kept everybody safe as much as we could.

00:17:49.180 We, we drug out some old 120 millimeter mortars and shot them back at them and, you know, kind of got them.

00:17:57.040 They didn't like getting shot at it.

00:17:58.300 I'll tell you that much.

00:17:59.460 That kind of put them on their toes, but.

00:18:02.260 I'll bet.

00:18:03.200 I know that you wrote in October of 18 on Facebook, you've been trying to raise this issue.

00:18:09.480 I should point out, you've been trying to raise this issue since he first ran for Congress.

00:18:13.540 So as he ran for governor, you, you tried to tell the media in Minnesota, you need to know the truth about him.

00:18:19.180 That he left us, he quit and almost nobody picked up the story.

00:18:23.680 The papers that you sent your letter to wound up endorsing him like the Star Tribune and ignoring you.

00:18:30.660 And so this is the first time you're really getting, I think, a national audience to, to say what you say is the truth about Governor Walz and Alpha News confirms.

00:18:42.120 You posted something in 2018 when he ran for governor along with two others, with, with another, another retired Army Command Sergeant Major who is named Paul Herr.

00:18:54.140 And before posting the letter, you wrote a message on why you wanted to bring this story out.

00:18:59.900 It reads in part as follows.

00:19:02.040 On 9-11, as I lowered the flags to half-staff at the Brewster Veterans Memorial, I gazed at the bronze likeness of Sergeant Kyle Miller, who was killed in action in Iraq on June 29, 2006, at age 19 while serving in the 125th Field Artillery Battalion.

00:19:20.420 I wondered what that patriot thought that day in 2001, a teenager in school, and I wondered what all the other patriots who had joined the service after 9-11 thought on that day.

00:19:30.520 When they joined, we were at war, which we still are, and getting the call to go is probably going to happen.

00:19:36.340 What if everybody said, sorry, I've got better things to do.

00:19:41.760 We are the land of the free because of the brave.

00:19:44.940 We are not the land of the free because of those who ran. 1.00

00:19:49.100 The citizens of the state of Minnesota deserve to hear this side of the story, not just a slithery politician's version of what he wants people to hear.

00:19:59.740 Do you feel, Tom, that he cut and ran, that he abandoned the unit?

00:20:04.780 Yeah, absolutely.

00:20:06.480 I look back on what took place then.

00:20:10.980 I mean, it wasn't like, oh, I just happened to get out, and then a week later the paper came out and the warning order came out,

00:20:17.700 and I just happened to time it just right, and I knew that was going to happen.

00:20:21.960 I mean, the warning order was already out.

00:20:26.060 Everybody knew they were going, and I don't know if he's never responded why to anybody really,

00:20:34.120 except that, well, I haven't quit to run for Congress, which is a lie, like a lot of the other ones.

00:20:39.580 A lot of the lies he tells, but he basically said that.

00:20:44.720 But I don't know if he was a coward when he originally did it or if he felt, well, I'm in over my head.

00:20:50.180 If I go there, I'm going to get people killed or I'm, you know, maybe deep down he felt I'm incompetent.

00:20:57.000 You know, I mean, you can't talk your way out of somebody shooting at you in a scenario like that.

00:21:03.160 You know, he's very good at talking and, you know, doing that.

00:21:07.300 I mean, I've got to give him credit there.

00:21:08.640 He loves hearing himself talk.

00:21:10.380 But I don't know, you know, and on the end of it, I think the reason he quit was political because it was, you know,

00:21:17.560 back then one side was kind of it was George Bush's war, and it was an unjust war.

00:21:24.560 Why were we there and all this stuff, you know, and it was like, you know, I think the bottom line is maybe it's all of the above.

00:21:30.940 You know, maybe there is some cowardice in there too.

00:21:33.260 But, you know, that was the thing.

00:21:35.340 It was like we were there and I was at a huge bunker complex where there was bunkers that were blown all to pieces,

00:21:42.280 but then there were some that were locked yet.

00:21:44.760 And I told the EOD explosive ordnance disposal guy, I said, well, maybe there's weapons of mass destruction in there.

00:21:51.940 And he said, well, I ain't open up.

00:21:53.520 He said, I got enough work to do cleaning all these rounds that are laying all over the desert out there.

00:21:58.560 And it was like, well, where's the media when it comes to this?

00:22:01.360 I mean, they didn't show any of that, but there was all kinds of possibilities that there was more there than anybody said.

00:22:07.640 But, you know, everything got skewed then and, you know, it was just, it was like an unjust thing.

00:22:13.260 And I think that's the bottom line.

00:22:15.320 But, yeah, he literally, you know, when I looked into, you know, the Star Tribune reporter I talked to way back when,

00:22:21.900 he actually said, well, isn't that treason?

00:22:23.940 And I said, well, treason is probably one level over and above what he did.

00:22:28.000 And I said, because that's selling the country out to another nation.

00:22:32.440 You know, if you're a double agent spy or something, I mean, that's one thing.

00:22:37.800 You know, he is a traitor because a traitor is basically a person who betrays a country.

00:22:43.300 And that is what he did. 0.74

00:22:45.160 And then, you know, I got thinking about it, about like this, that bird doll guy that just walked away from his UN in Afghanistan.

00:22:52.400 And it was like, you know, that literally is what Tim Walsh did.

00:22:55.620 He is a deserter, too.

00:22:57.540 You know, it's a different version of it.

00:22:59.320 But a soldier who leaves or runs away from service or duty with the intention of never returning, that is exactly what he did.

00:23:07.460 He had no intention of ever coming back in the Guard or filling out one more day in combat boots. 0.98

00:23:14.000 When he pulled the plug and was gone, he basically said, tough, crap, United States. 0.97

00:23:21.220 I'm getting the heck out of it. 0.99

00:23:22.940 And yeah, that's I'm not ashamed to call him a traitor or a deserter.

00:23:27.460 We have got to get what's happened to what's happening over in Paris with the Olympics and this boxer.

00:23:37.180 I don't know about you, but I was flabbergasted at the amount of gaslighting going on in the media and by the IOC about the true sex of these two boxers who are competing in women's boxing.

00:23:51.460 They're male.

00:23:53.040 You trust me.

00:23:54.360 I believe you trust me.

00:23:55.420 You wouldn't be listening to the show.

00:23:56.840 They're male.

00:23:57.840 They have X, Y chromosomes.

00:23:59.500 They have testes. 0.99

00:24:00.660 That's male.

00:24:02.320 Period.

00:24:03.520 The IOC doesn't deny it.

00:24:05.180 And we'll get to exactly how they're trying to thread the needle.

00:24:07.260 But that's what you need to know.

00:24:08.720 These are these are men competing as women.

00:24:11.480 They're not trans from what we understand.

00:24:14.180 They suffer what's called DSDs.

00:24:17.040 And that's a different thing, which we'll get into.

00:24:18.800 But I'm going to walk you through it.

00:24:19.820 OK, I'm going to I'm going to give you the facts you need to know.

00:24:21.860 But a little bit of background for you.

00:24:24.140 First, the IOC has been aware of this problem in women's boxing for years and it's done nothing because its number one goal is, quote, inclusion.

00:24:35.360 And it's made that clear.

00:24:36.900 It's woke.

00:24:37.960 It doesn't care about women's safety or women's fairness. 0.98

00:24:41.180 It just cares about making the trans or the DSDs feel welcome and safety of women be damned.

00:24:49.140 But this particular case has escalated the matter, escalated the matter because it's now in combat sports. 0.96

00:24:55.380 Leah Thomas was bad enough. 1.00

00:24:56.840 That was swimming.

00:24:57.820 But he was in his own lane.

00:24:59.560 Now we're actually endangering women. 1.00

00:25:01.980 This has been banned in sports like rugby because that's another combat sport.

00:25:07.140 And the the entity that controls boxing for women, the International Boxing Federation, has also said this is a no go and disqualified these two athletes before.

00:25:19.720 And they notified the IOC that these are males and the IOC ignored it.

00:25:25.940 Its only response has been to attack the Boxing Federation and to say, you know, hands over the ears.

00:25:33.720 It's not true.

00:25:34.240 We're just not going to listen.

00:25:35.320 They have female written on their passports. 0.73

00:25:37.900 It's insane what they're doing.

00:25:39.620 Let me kick it off with what we heard from Mark Adams, who's the IOC comms director.

00:25:44.880 Last week, when this controversy first erupted with the boxer from Nigeria, there's another one from Taiwan.

00:25:51.300 Take a listen to him.

00:25:52.000 SOT 21.

00:25:52.400 They are women in their passports, and it's stated that that is the case, that they are female.

00:26:00.540 They're competing in the women's category. 0.89

00:26:03.220 Again, I don't want to mention their names or whatever, but these athletes have competed many times before for many years.

00:26:11.760 OK, so they're female because he says they're female, by the way, Algeria, not Nigeria.

00:26:16.920 And they've competed as females for many years.

00:26:19.560 He skips over the part where they were disqualified from worlds in 2023 for being men.

00:26:26.180 OK, so basically they got away with it for a number of years.

00:26:29.580 Therefore, they are female. 0.81

00:26:31.120 That doesn't hold up.

00:26:32.640 It got to the point where the organization that oversees women's boxing, the International Boxing Association, felt the need to come out publicly and say the IOC is misleading you.

00:26:44.120 And this just happened over the weekend.

00:26:46.260 And they explained this past weekend that this thing started in Turkey in May of 2022 when they were in competition.

00:26:55.640 Tests were taken and they said the results were inconsistent with femaleness. 0.99

00:27:01.440 Next thing they knew, they had championships in 2023 in New Delhi, India, the world championships come in New Delhi, India, female world championships.

00:27:11.980 There were 324 boxers from 64 nations.

00:27:14.800 It was a 10 day competition.

00:27:16.740 And Taiwan's Lin Yoteng and Algeria's Amin Khalif were two of those 324 boxers.

00:27:22.560 Now, they and others, this is not that uncommon, it's not common, but it's not unheard of for people participating in this sport and others like it to be concealing that they suffer from what are called DSDs, suspected differences of sexual development, differences of sexual development.

00:27:45.040 We used to use the term hermaphrodite.

00:27:47.080 Then they changed it to intersex.

00:27:49.120 Yes, now they go by DSDs. 0.96

00:27:51.820 And what it means in this case is you're someone who's a male, you have XY chromosomes and testes, but you don't have descended testes and sometimes you don't have a penis. 0.98

00:28:01.700 But then when you hit puberty, something might start growing. 0.90

00:28:05.520 But there's no doubt that in the vast majority of these cases, the guy knows he's a guy, at least by the time he hits puberty.

00:28:11.940 And certainly these two know because they had an XY chromosome test done repeatedly, including a blood test, according to the officials in that world championships that told them they're men.

00:28:21.080 They know they, according to the experts, would not have any female interior, you know, internal organs, no uterus, no ovaries, no fallopian tubes.

00:28:34.540 There'd be no period, no breasts would grow. 1.00

00:28:37.140 And that's consistent with what our eyes show us when we see these two compete.

00:28:40.200 But they do have male testes that usually are undescended. 1.00

00:28:43.340 So when they are born, they may look female in the genitalia.

00:28:48.260 And therefore, many of them are raised as girls in the beginning by well-meaning families who don't understand what they have here.

00:28:55.240 And then it becomes apparent later on as they continue to look more and more like boys.

00:28:59.360 And then they hit puberty. 0.98

00:29:00.780 And often the testes do descend and something approaching a penis could start growing. 1.00

00:29:05.820 And all of that deserves empathy and understanding and kindness and non-bullying. 0.98

00:29:09.860 And I think we're all there.

00:29:11.060 However, it gets a lot trickier when they enter female sports, especially combat sports, and then remain in them after they know. 0.84

00:29:22.420 Because this is not a question of elevated testosterone.

00:29:26.080 They have perfectly normal testosterone for men.

00:29:30.200 For men.

00:29:31.340 They haven't done anything to manipulate their testosterone.

00:29:34.180 It's not a matter of doping, you know, in a way.

00:29:37.260 It's a matter of biology.

00:29:38.800 And this would be the same thing as an Olympian going and competing in the Paralympics.

00:29:45.580 That's not allowed.

00:29:47.140 They have able bodies.

00:29:48.640 And you can't compete against people who don't have those same physical advantages.

00:29:52.900 It would be unfair.

00:29:53.740 We would recognize it clearly in that context.

00:29:55.900 We choose not to hear because the IOC is woke.

00:29:59.300 Let me go back to the facts.

00:30:01.420 They were asked to take these further blood tests.

00:30:04.040 They did.

00:30:04.500 They demonstrated chromosomes.

00:30:05.940 This is from the IBA, International Boxing Association Presser, that we refer to as ineligible results.

00:30:12.720 That was further ratified and they were removed.

00:30:15.780 He said, we've got a document that was sent to both boxers, refers to the blood test.

00:30:19.560 We're not able to give the actual blood test results here due to medical privacy.

00:30:23.260 But both boxers signed our letter to show receipt.

00:30:27.180 They had seen the X, Y.

00:30:28.640 Both had the opportunity to appeal.

00:30:31.600 The Taiwanese fighter chose not to appeal.

00:30:36.340 But Iman Khalif did appeal.

00:30:39.720 And he said, we had further discussions with Iman and we paid for most of that appeal, but Iman dropped it.

00:30:47.360 And therefore, it was never actually adjudicated.

00:30:50.180 Now, I ask you, if you were an actual female, why would you drop your appeal? 1.00

00:30:53.820 You were deprived of boxing in the gold medal round.

00:30:59.220 You had made it through all the other rounds.

00:31:01.000 You're about to fight for gold and they DQ you for being male.

00:31:05.520 And you dropped the appeal.

00:31:07.140 Why?

00:31:09.360 Why?

00:31:09.920 Why isn't that in all the reporting wired? 0.99

00:31:12.800 You've been absolutely disgusting. 0.90

00:31:14.400 You're a tech magazine. 1.00

00:31:15.440 For the love of God, stick to writing about computers because you don't know shit about fairness in sport.

00:31:20.560 The IBA then sent a letter to the International Olympic Committee on June 5th, 2023, informing them of the test results.

00:31:29.740 Summary, abnormal.

00:31:31.020 Interpretation, chromosomal analysis reveals male karyotype, which means chromosome.

00:31:37.060 Male chromosomes have been found.

00:31:40.320 What happens with the IOC?

00:31:43.180 They come out and double down.

00:31:45.420 They don't care.

00:31:46.540 They couldn't care less that the Boxing Federation is saying they're men.

00:31:49.560 We tested it's a blood test and we told the IOC.

00:31:51.820 Here is the IOC again trying to gaslight us.

00:31:54.240 Thomas Bach, the worst.

00:31:55.900 He's the president of the IOC on Saturday.

00:31:58.740 Let's be very clear here.

00:32:00.180 We are talking about women's boxing.

00:32:02.920 And we have two boxers who are born as women, who have been raised as women, who have a passport as a woman, and who have competed for many years as women.

00:32:22.800 And this is the clear definition of a woman. 0.95

00:32:29.680 There was never any doubt about them being a woman.

00:32:35.120 And how can somebody being born, raised, competed, and having a passport as a woman cannot be considered a woman?

00:32:45.300 That man sitting there knows that they tested positive via blood test for XY chromosomes. 0.99

00:32:49.420 He's a liar. 0.99

00:32:51.580 He's got an agenda. 0.97

00:32:53.680 Moreover, the IOC at that presser came out, the same guy, and said, I repeat, this is not a DSD case.

00:33:05.780 It's not a DSD case.

00:33:08.040 Okay?

00:33:08.340 So he's trying to say, no, they're not intersex, et cetera.

00:33:10.920 This is about a woman taking part in a woman's competition, and I think I've explained this many times.

00:33:15.340 Guess what happened after the presser?

00:33:17.040 The IOC had to issue a paper correction.

00:33:20.440 The correction reads as follows.

00:33:23.500 He said, I repeat here, this is not a DSD case.

00:33:26.680 What was intended was, I repeat here, this is not a transgender case. 0.97

00:33:33.180 That's it right there.

00:33:34.120 That's the admission.

00:33:35.120 It's a DSD case, which we know because they have XY chromosomes. 0.92

00:33:38.780 They are men.

00:33:39.320 It's not about elevated testosterone.

00:33:41.520 It's about them being actual men, XY chromosomes, which you cannot get around. 0.99

00:33:46.980 The doctor for the IOC, who's on the board of it, it's not the IOC, the International Boxing Federation,

00:33:52.000 Dr. Ioannis Filipatos, came out and said it explicitly.

00:33:56.020 Listen to this.

00:33:56.540 I try to say that the medical result, medical result, blood result,

00:34:02.940 looks and say in the laboratories that this boxer is male.

00:34:11.360 So he gave it up, even though the first guy who spoke for the IBF was like, oh, he can't be specific because of privacy.

00:34:17.720 Then on comes the doctor, who's a board member for the Boxing Federation, and says they're men.

00:34:22.440 You've got, not for nothing, but a guy named Alan Abramson, award-winning sports writer, prior sports columnist for NBC News,

00:34:30.160 saying he's seen the test himself and the letter, which the IBA concluded showed the boxers were male,

00:34:35.440 and said it shows that Imeen Khalif has the DNA, which is that of a male consisting of XY chromosomes.

00:34:42.900 The lab results for each athlete depict the XY chromosomes photographically, and on and on it goes. 0.73

00:34:49.040 The proof is overwhelming, and the IOC was told.

00:34:54.920 There is no way around this.

00:34:57.820 I am sorry that these two got all the way to the medal rounds now.

00:35:02.560 They're both guaranteed to medal because they've been beating women over and over, and they did so well that they're going to win.

00:35:06.520 I'm sorry that they were allowed to do that and were falsely led to believe it would be okay.

00:35:11.900 It's not okay.

00:35:13.600 It's not okay.

00:35:15.220 The one woman who was defeated by one of these over the weekend, you saw her hold up the XX with the fingers, XX, trying to say, I'm a woman.

00:35:23.680 This is a woman's competition. 0.99

00:35:25.140 And that's how it must remain if we are going to protect the safety of American women and all the other women who have to go into this already dangerous sport.

00:35:35.860 This is not one of the risks they assume.

00:35:39.340 Look at her.

00:35:40.260 Right on.

00:35:41.260 But you know what really needs to be done?

00:35:42.780 I'm sorry.

00:35:43.940 Don't box.

00:35:45.360 The Italian woman who was defeated by Imeen Khalif last weekend, she wound up issuing an apology. 0.70

00:35:49.840 Charlie Kirk predicted it, an apology for speaking out against him.

00:35:55.180 If the IOC let him play, I guess it's fair.

00:35:57.060 Well, no, it's not fair.

00:35:59.140 And I'm sorry.

00:35:59.660 I guess these women have to worry about blowback to themselves, but they should also be worrying about the women who come up behind them because they, too, are in danger and someone's going to get killed. 1.00

00:36:10.620 The Boxing Federation and the boxing officials who have been polled, one of the old female world champions, former, said Imeen Khalif's not even a very good boxer.

00:36:20.060 He's winning because he's male.

00:36:22.560 And female pronouns are inappropriate in this context. 0.74

00:36:26.240 The co-founder of the Independent Council on Women's Sports condemned the IOC.

00:36:31.000 The cover-up and championing of male athletes in women's Olympic sports is the greatest sports scandal of our lifetime.

00:36:38.400 Heads must roll within the IOC to account for this unthinkable justice against women. 1.00

00:36:44.880 Couldn't have said it better myself.

00:36:46.720 I'm Megan Kelly, host of The Megan Kelly Show on SiriusXM.

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00:37:45.400 Do you guys ever hit news of the day with each other?

00:37:53.680 Is it chummy in that way?

00:37:55.620 Megan, you're not going to be surprised that you're not going to get me to talk about politics during a presidential election year.

00:38:03.660 We often eat lunch together.

00:38:05.920 It's true.

00:38:07.000 It's the government.

00:38:07.900 So bring your own lunch and sure, we'll talk about everything from baseball to politics to when Justice Breyer is around, some pretty bad knock-knock jokes that he gets from his grandkids.

00:38:23.500 Is it like when we all go home for Thanksgiving and we have leftists and rightists and conservatives, Republicans, everybody, liberals, you know, debating these kinds of things over the potato salad?

00:38:34.580 Or is it, I would imagine it's a little bit more elevated than that.

00:38:37.900 Well, it's certainly like a family.

00:38:40.580 You know, there are nine people.

00:38:43.000 We work together for long periods of time.

00:38:46.260 We do easy things and we do hard things together.

00:38:49.420 And it's a, I always think it'd be nice if the American people could take a peek at our discussions in the conference room.

00:38:56.860 Now, I'm glad they don't because it gives us an opportunity to speak candidly with one another and work through difficult problems.

00:39:03.360 But I think they'd be very proud of the level of discourse and the thoughtfulness that goes around that conference table.

00:39:11.720 We have a rule.

00:39:13.600 We speak in seniority and everybody goes around the table and says their piece before any further discussion.

00:39:21.200 And then it's just a conversation back and forth.

00:39:24.320 And it's amazing how often that conversation yields something that we can all agree on.

00:39:30.280 And that becomes our starting place for our work.

00:39:34.100 Is it true that you all shake hands with all of the other justices every time you see each other?

00:39:39.220 That's a 150-year-old tradition, Megan.

00:39:42.820 And yes, we do.

00:39:44.980 And I think that's a wonderful icebreaker for us and, you know, for all people, right?

00:39:51.540 No matter how difficult the matter of the day is, no matter what disagreements we might have had yesterday,

00:39:58.480 we're always greeting one another with a warm welcome and a question about their family or what they've been up to over the summer.

00:40:05.820 And, yes, it's a great tradition.

00:40:11.220 It's really nice.

00:40:12.140 I think about it sometimes in church where, you know, it's time to say peace and make peace with your neighbors.

00:40:19.060 And I appreciate the return of the handshake, a human touch in congregation with your neighbors, even strangers to you, but with whom you have a common belief.

00:40:28.500 There's something to it.

00:40:29.260 And you hit on this in the book, like that tradition of going to church, some of the themes of bowling alone.

00:40:35.880 That's really kind of interestingly part of the problem in the knee-jerk over-regulation of everything.

00:40:45.520 Well, now, Megan, I'm a lawyer, so I like laws.

00:40:48.720 And, you know, I think they're very important to our freedoms, right?

00:40:52.500 Without them, we can't be safe.

00:40:55.260 We don't know what our responsibilities and our rights are without laws.

00:40:59.440 But, you know, James Madison a long time ago asked the question, all right, some law is essential, but is there an irony in law?

00:41:07.080 And can there be too much law in ways that actually hurt our freedoms and our aspirations for equality and our rights?

00:41:14.280 And, you know, just as a judge now for about 18 years, I've just seen so many cases in which decent, hardworking Americans just trying to make their way, just getting overrun by laws that they didn't know about.

00:41:29.580 And I felt it was important to take a moment to just tell their stories.

00:41:34.240 I've reflected on it for a long time, and many of them were kind enough to share their stories with Janie, my co-author and former law clerk and me.

00:41:43.580 And the book really is about them, and it's dedicated to them, and it's their stories mostly.

00:41:50.980 It's incredible the way that you've chosen to approach it.

00:41:53.780 And Janie, obviously, is brilliant because I'm sure she did the bulk of the research, and the stories are spectacular, the ones that you've chosen.

00:42:01.440 Just to put a little, you know, header on it for the audience, you pose the central question of the book as follows.

00:42:07.740 What happens, this is my phrase, to the little guy and their foundational freedoms, like the right to speak, the right to pray, the right to gather freely, when our laws increasingly restrict what we may say, they monitor what we do, and tell us how we may live.

00:42:26.380 And you write in the book about how rich people, people with connections or popular people, they'll do okay.

00:42:33.020 If you look at history, it's when the unpopular or unconnected, unwealthy guy or gal gets dragged into the courts, that all of this regulation becomes a problem.

00:42:45.400 And you feature, front and foremost, the story of Sandra and John Yates.

00:42:50.200 I told my family the story.

00:42:51.780 We're still talking about it.

00:42:52.940 Even my kids were completely baffled by what happened to John Yates.

00:42:57.000 Can you outline it for us quickly?

00:42:58.900 Sure.

00:42:59.180 So, John and Sandra Yates are high school sweethearts.

00:43:03.060 They moved to Florida.

00:43:03.980 He pursued his life's dream of becoming a commercial fisherman, worked his way up from deckhand to captain of his own small crew.

00:43:10.720 And he's out one day.

00:43:12.180 Somebody comes alongside, flashes a badge, and says, I'd like to measure your fish.

00:43:17.300 John says, well, we've been out for some time, and I've got thousands of pounds of red grouper in the hold.

00:43:22.680 He says, fine, I got all day.

00:43:24.020 And he sits there measuring the red grouper one by one.

00:43:28.680 And he determines that there are 72 fish that are less than 20 inches long, the limit at the time.

00:43:35.500 Now, John's not convinced this fellow knows how to measure red grouper because he doesn't account for their long lower jaw like he should.

00:43:42.420 But put that aside.

00:43:43.480 72 it is.

00:43:45.120 The agent says, put those in a crate, and I'll deal with you when you get back to dock in a few days.

00:43:49.500 John does that.

00:43:50.400 Well, when he gets back, the agent measures them again and finds 69 now, not 72 that are undersized, and he's suspicious.

00:43:58.720 But John doesn't hear anything more about it for three years.

00:44:02.760 When a group of agents surround his house, his wife's doing the laundry, and arrest him, take him two hours away, he has no idea what this is about.

00:44:12.200 And he's charged with a violation of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act, which was, as you know, adopted after the Enron accounting scandal.

00:44:21.460 And it's designed to prevent people from destroying documents when there's a federal investigation.

00:44:27.040 But the law reads, you can't destroy things like accounting records and spreadsheets and other tangible objects.

00:44:34.680 And the government's Sarbanes-Oxley theory is that John had thrown overboard 72 undersized red grouper and replaced them with 69 still undersized red grouper.

00:44:48.000 And John thought that was about the silliest thing he'd ever heard.

00:44:52.240 But they pursued the case, even after the size limit for red grouper was dropped to 18 inches, and all of his fish, by anyone's estimation, were longer than that.

00:45:02.560 They spent years pursuing him, secured a conviction.

00:45:06.380 He spent 30 days in jail over Christmas when he and his wife were trying to raise two young grandchildren.

00:45:13.320 And he was ready to give up.

00:45:15.280 He was done.

00:45:15.860 And Sandra said, no, we have to fight this for the next person so it doesn't happen to someone else again.

00:45:22.320 She took it all the way to the United States Supreme Court and won by a single vote. 0.99

00:45:27.560 Now, that kind of spirit I admire.

00:45:30.900 But look at the costs that it came to that family.

00:45:34.140 John was no longer able to pursue his life's dream as a commercial fisherman, put out of work.

00:45:40.300 His wife now supports the family, and they live in a trailer.

00:45:44.260 So that's the human toll of too much law, right?

00:45:50.300 And, you know, it's something that's happened in my lifetime, Megan, I don't know about yours, but our laws have just simply exploded.

00:45:58.360 The federal criminal code is more than doubled in my lifetime in length.

00:46:02.920 There are so many federal crimes now in regulatory provisions that nobody can be sure because it would take years just to read them.

00:46:11.360 There are at least 300,000, we know.

00:46:13.900 And, you know, everybody says Congress isn't busy.

00:46:18.400 They write two to three million new words of statutory law every year.

00:46:23.100 And the federal regulations forget about Congress.

00:46:26.940 That's just the tip of the iceberg.

00:46:28.940 The federal register used to be 16 pages long when it started in the 1930s.

00:46:33.460 Now, every year, we see 60,000 to 70,000 pages added annually.

00:46:41.500 John's wife, Sandra, is really the heroine of the book.

00:46:47.420 I agree.

00:46:47.760 She brought this case, notwithstanding the enormous challenges to doing that, when you don't have a lot of money.

00:46:53.760 As you point out, it lasted eight years, three courts, 13 different judges.

00:46:58.120 And John was forced to do the time and pay the price, even though he was ultimately successful at the U.S. Supreme Court.

00:47:06.960 You point out in the book, all of this is very contrary to the founder's vision of what America would be about.

00:47:14.160 And you say that one of the essential purposes in our founding documents, as recognized by Justice William O. Douglas, was to take government off the backs of the people and to keep it off.

00:47:26.940 And somehow that's been turned on its head with the numbers that you just espoused, that by 100 years ago, all the federal government laws fit into a single volume.

00:47:37.200 This is all from the book Overruled.

00:47:38.960 By 2018, U.S. Code was 54 volumes, 60,000 pages.

00:47:42.440 There are 300,000 federal agency regulations, many of which have criminal penalties and on and on.

00:47:47.640 It's it's just spun out of control to where no one could ever understand what all the laws are out there and how many we violate in a day.

00:47:56.820 Yeah, some people say some academics say that anyone over the age of 18 in this country could be charged with a federal felony.

00:48:04.700 And that does raise a lot of questions in my mind.

00:48:08.980 Right. Our founders wanted for us written laws.

00:48:13.140 They wrote a constitution.

00:48:14.780 That was a novel idea in human history at the time.

00:48:18.400 And it was designed to divide and check and balance power and make lawmaking difficult.

00:48:25.120 We forget that they they saw law as restrictions on freedoms.

00:48:29.240 And so they wanted lawmaking to be especially difficult task.

00:48:34.380 And that's why we have two houses of Congress, why you have to then get the president to sign it or override his veto.

00:48:42.260 And we've kind of taken that process where we're supposed to have the wisdom of the masses, all the people involved, their representatives coming together, compromising,

00:48:53.160 working through problems and passing laws that we can all maybe understand and agree on.

00:48:59.480 We've outsourced a lot of that work to federal agencies where there are experts and they have very important contributions to make.

00:49:08.120 But there aren't the kinds of checks and balances that Madison had in mind for us.

00:49:13.280 Yeah, they're they're not elected.

00:49:15.860 And as you point out in the book, overruled, they often not only will be the promulgators of these basically criminal statutes that we're going to have to abide by.

00:49:25.840 But then they're the judge and jury, too.

00:49:28.860 They will create the regulation.

00:49:31.180 They'll charge us with violating it.

00:49:32.820 And then they'll try the case.

00:49:35.240 And surprise, surprise, they're not the most objective judge.

00:49:39.200 Well, you know, when Janie and I sat down to work on the book, we wondered how many federal agencies there are, Megan.

00:49:48.200 And it turns out federal agencies can't agree on how many federal agencies exist.

00:49:53.700 There are at least three different published numbers of how many of them there are.

00:49:58.560 And you're right.

00:49:59.520 They they write rules.

00:50:01.180 Very important work.

00:50:02.400 They prosecute people for violations of those rules.

00:50:05.720 And then in many cases, they serve as the judge for the case to Jonathan Turley, professor at George Washington, says that the average American is 10 times more likely to be brought before one of these administrative judges.

00:50:19.100 They used to be called hearing officers, but now they call themselves administrative judges.

00:50:24.500 Great.

00:50:25.880 Then they are to be that an American is likely to ever face a judge and a jury.

00:50:30.140 And, you know, what's at stake there?

00:50:31.840 Why do why do we care about this?

00:50:34.000 Why do we write about this in the book?

00:50:36.100 Well, when you're before a judge, you're before somebody who is pretty independent, who's been appointed and confirmed and been through that process.

00:50:45.320 But after that doesn't owe anything to anybody.

00:50:48.380 Right.

00:50:49.660 His only job or her job is to apply the law as faithfully and fairly as as they can.

00:50:55.800 And you have a jury, a jury of your peers to decide your case before an agency, your administrative judge or administrative law judge is likely to be somebody who works for the very same agency that's bringing the charges against you.

00:51:11.500 You're not going to have a jury.

00:51:12.640 And many of the procedures that you'd get in court, including basic rights like cross-examination, are not always given to you the way they would be in court.

00:51:23.540 It's a very, very different system.

00:51:25.760 And it's unsurprising as a result that agencies almost always win before their own judges in ways that they wouldn't win in court.

00:51:34.860 That fierce independence of the judiciary is going to come back into this discussion as we get into some of the criticisms of the courts these days and the push to make them more accountable and whether that's also inconsistent with the founders' vision.

00:51:52.000 And you go through, you do an excellent job of outlining the problem in terms of the volume of law, the impossibility of understanding the laws, real man and women stories of how it's impossible to navigate the system and how people have gotten caught in this web.

00:52:07.600 But I do want to tick through a couple of the passing references because they bring it home.

00:52:12.560 Justice Gorsuch goes through the six-year-old you may have heard of who landed in court for picking a tulip by the bus stop.

00:52:19.280 A 10-year-old whose lemonade stand was shuttered for lack of a business license.

00:52:23.740 We talked about those kids all the time when I was on Fox.

00:52:26.640 It's a federal crime to enter a post office while intoxicated.

00:52:30.520 There goes my Saturday night.

00:52:31.900 To sell a mattress without a warning label.

00:52:34.640 I never knew that was real.

00:52:35.980 We all rip those off of our mattresses thinking that's a joke.

00:52:38.680 To injure a government-owned lamp in D.C.

00:52:42.700 And, I mean, absurdly, to consult with a known pirate, which is right on point.

00:52:49.280 It's who spends their time coming up with this stuff, never mind enforcing it.

00:52:54.960 Well, that's the thing.

00:52:56.800 I used to think those were like stray anecdotes.

00:53:00.080 And then I started seeing them in my courtroom.

00:53:03.000 When I was a 10th Circuit judge, I had a case.

00:53:06.080 I think it was a seventh grader, certainly a middle schooler, who was trading burps for laughs in his classroom.

00:53:12.000 And I might have been guilty of that in a day.

00:53:15.920 And instead of being just taken to the principal's office or maybe his parents called or maybe detention, he was arrested and handcuffed.

00:53:26.220 And he went to court.

00:53:28.240 Now, I don't know what's happening in our society that leads to things like that.

00:53:34.020 Another one, a small health care company in Kansas was accused of Medicare fraud.

00:53:39.860 Big, big deal.

00:53:41.400 That's the kind of thing we can put your company out of business.

00:53:43.740 And it went through six years of those kinds of administrative law proceedings we talked about a moment ago, got to my court.

00:53:52.460 And the three of us, we sit in panels of three on the courts of appeals, usually.

00:53:56.880 We looked at each other and said, we think, gosh, I think they comply with all the rules that were in existence at the time they provided their services.

00:54:04.740 And the government's accusing them of violating rules that it didn't even promulgate until years after they provided the services.

00:54:13.500 Are we missing something?

00:54:15.180 And we got the government lawyer in front of us and heard argument.

00:54:18.700 And it turned out the government had just become confused.

00:54:22.500 It was producing so many rules so fast.

00:54:25.540 It had no idea that it was accusing somebody for violating rules that didn't even exist at the time.

00:54:30.680 The theme I see out of the book, again, overruled, is these government entities overreact to problematic behavior, minor problematic behavior, and they punish good or neutral behavior over and over and over.

00:54:54.640 There are so many examples in the book, but one of them that our audience may be familiar with is Hemingway's cats down at his estate, which some regulator deemed a problem.

00:55:07.680 Everyone was perfectly happy.

00:55:09.200 No one was suffering.

00:55:10.620 But then they were once the regulators stepped in.

00:55:14.340 Yeah, so there's this law that said that if you're an animal exhibitor, like a zoo or a circus, you have to have a federal license for your animals.

00:55:25.700 Fine.

00:55:26.660 Then the agency took that and kind of ran with it and said, basically, animal exhibitors include everybody from children's magician, Marty Hahn.

00:55:37.480 I talk about him in the book, too.

00:55:39.020 That's a crazy story.

00:55:40.140 Yeah, it's a crazy, that's a crazy story, but the Hemingway Museum, turns out they needed a federal license, and somebody from the U.S. Department of Agriculture went down there and said, okay, you have these cats.

00:55:53.020 They're all descendants of Ernest Hemingway's original six-toed cat that he got from a ship captain is good luck, and they've been taking care of them for years down there.

00:56:02.560 They even stay during hurricanes to make sure the cats are okay, and they have a little cat cemetery with tombstones.

00:56:11.020 I mean, these cats are loved, and they're all named like Marilyn Monroe and Cary Grant.

00:56:16.360 Anyway, this person from the Department of Agriculture says, you've got a problem taking care of these cats because the wall isn't tall enough, so the cats kind of wander into town.

00:56:27.700 People love them, but you've got to keep them in, and so you've got to put the wall higher.

00:56:33.100 And the museum said, well, we'd love to, but there's another federal agency that says we're a historical site, and we can't change the wall.

00:56:40.280 So, all right, then the agent said, well, maybe you need to put a hot wire on top of that wall.

00:56:48.920 So they put the hot wire in, and, of course, that fried the cats, and the agency got very angry about that.

00:56:56.900 And the museum said, well, hold on.

00:56:58.020 You guys are the experts.

00:56:59.220 We're just trying to do – anyway, they went through three rounds of applying for permits.

00:57:04.040 The American government spent hundreds of thousands of dollars sending agents to Key West.

00:57:11.720 They rented an apartment across from the museum, took surreptitious photos.

00:57:16.520 You know, they're labeled like could be a cat from Hemingway Museum on them.

00:57:21.540 And PETA did a study.

00:57:23.540 They brought in PETA, and PETA said they saw a bunch of fat and happy cats down there.

00:57:29.000 It took years.

00:57:30.860 And ultimately, of course, it got resolved.

00:57:33.400 But the museum tried to fight it and said this regulation is too broad an interpretation of the statute.

00:57:39.920 They fought it all the way to the 11th Circuit and lost.

00:57:43.180 The 11th Circuit said, you got a pretty good reading of the statute there, but there's something called Chevron deference, which requires us to favor the agency when there's any question about how best to read the statute so you lose.

00:57:56.680 And you point out, too, I want to get to Chevron, but in New York City, for an example, opening a restaurant in New York, citing a New York Times article.

00:58:05.340 You'd have to go through 11 city agencies, often with conflicting regulations, get up to 30 permits, registrations, licenses, and certificates, and pass 23 different inspections.

00:58:16.340 That's exactly the kind of bureaucracy that they were running into down at the Hemingway Museum, where they just wanted to love these cats and not electrify them or electrocute them.

00:58:26.100 Same thing as the poor magician who had similar problems.

00:58:29.240 You've got to read the book to find out his story, Marty Hain, where he's just trying to pull a rabbit out of a hat.

00:58:34.060 And if he wanted to pull an iguana out of the hat, he could have done whatever he wanted to it.

00:58:37.380 But ultimately, they were actually getting down to the nitty gritty of, well, if a tornado comes, the cat needs to go into the holding shelter first before the dogs and cats.

00:58:46.420 I mean, it's insane.

00:58:47.440 Megan, Megan, when he had a – so, yeah, he got whacked just like the people at the Hemingway Museum.

00:58:55.040 An agent came up when he was doing a show, children's show, and pulled the rabbit out of the hat and said, do you have a license for that?

00:58:59.860 And he said, no.

00:59:01.940 Do I need a license?

00:59:03.520 I mean, he's a law-abiding guy.

00:59:05.180 He wants to do it right.

00:59:06.320 And they told him if it's an iguana, you don't need one.

00:59:09.000 And if it were a rabbit meant for stew, that's okay.

00:59:11.860 You don't need one.

00:59:12.580 But for the children's show, you need a federal license.

00:59:15.160 And he got one, of course.

00:59:17.440 And then later after Hurricane Katrina, they said, well, now you need to have an emergency preparedness plan for chemical spills and hurricanes and all manner of disasters.

00:59:29.940 And he had to hire a disaster management expert to help him write a 28-page disaster management.

00:59:35.700 He lives in Missouri.

00:59:36.860 He says, we do have one thing I'm worried about, and that's tornadoes.

00:59:40.200 And my plan is to get the family in the basement, then the dog and the cat, and if there's time, I'll get the rabbit.

00:59:47.240 And, of course, you know, the agent, no, no, I don't care about the dog or the family or the rabbit's got to go first.

00:59:54.560 He even had a home visit.

00:59:56.100 He had a home visit when they wanted to see, you know, how he carries the rabbit to the shows.

01:00:01.200 And he showed him the cage, and the agent said, well, now how do you know which way is up when you carry the rabbit?

01:00:08.160 And Marty says, well, I've got a handle.

01:00:11.240 I carry it from the handle.

01:00:12.780 And they said, no, you have to have one of those stickers that says this way up on it.

01:00:16.980 And he said, well, where do I get some?

01:00:18.460 And the agent said, well, I'll send you some.

01:00:20.640 And two weeks later, he got 200 stickers in the mail thanks to your tax dollars.

01:00:25.860 Hmm, it's so, we have to laugh because it's truly just absurd, but it's one of those laugh or cry situations.

01:00:34.000 You know of all these cases because they wound their way through the judicial system.

01:00:39.000 These people were forced to defend themselves against an overreaching federal government that does not understand those founding principles of how limited it was supposed to be and how we formed the whole country because we didn't want that boot on our neck inside of our homes.

01:00:55.860 And when we do a magic show, not everything has to be overregulated.

01:01:01.000 And one of the examples that's the most heartbreaking in the book, not the least of which because we actually went there for a short time during the COVID lockdown, was what happened in Butte, Montana.

01:01:11.240 It's where you may not know this, Justice.

01:01:13.500 Rob O'Neill, the guy who shot bin Laden, is from Butte, Montana.

01:01:16.980 And boy, I've talked to him many times, but I've never talked to him about the history of his hometown and how this government overregulation stopped people from helping themselves.

01:01:31.420 Yeah, so Butte, Montana, 100 years ago, 150 years ago, was one of the richest places on the planet.

01:01:39.960 They discovered copper there and the wires for our telegraphs, our telephones, bullets for World War I.

01:01:46.760 They came from Butte, Montana.

01:01:48.460 It was so important in World War I that Omar Bradley was sent there to guard it.

01:01:52.060 And, of course, over time, the plant closes, the smelters close, and it becomes – it's a tough place to grow up these days economically.

01:02:05.780 And they also discovered that that smelter had poured a lot of arsenic into the air that had settled on the land.

01:02:13.220 300 square miles around Butte became a Superfund site, and EPA did a good job with industry trying to clean it up.

01:02:23.260 But they set the acceptable arsenic ranges to be left in the soil at 250 parts per million in residential yards.

01:02:33.800 And in many municipalities today, you cannot put anything in a landfill that's greater than 100 parts per million.

01:02:41.660 And about 100 people in Butte said, wow, I don't feel comfortable with 250 parts per million.

01:02:48.920 Where did this come from, and can we do better than that?

01:02:52.440 And EPA said, well, we think that's an acceptable cancer range, that 250.

01:02:58.840 And the people of Butte said, well, we'd like to clean up our own land or get this company to help us do better.

01:03:06.860 I mean, we're talking about daycares and kids' backyards.

01:03:11.560 And, of course, the industry fought it, fair enough.

01:03:14.240 But EPA came in on the side of industry, and they said that federal law preempted any efforts by the states to clean up the land,

01:03:24.680 or even by the people themselves in Butte, Montana, without EPA's permission.

01:03:29.860 The case went all the way to the Supreme Court, and we held that the law was exactly as EPA and the industry read it.

01:03:38.080 I dissented, but I admit my colleagues had a pretty strong reading of the law.

01:03:43.980 I guess my question just is, suppose that is what the law is.

01:03:48.720 Is that how it should be?

01:03:50.600 What do we think?

01:03:51.400 Of course, environmental regulation is very important.

01:03:54.040 And maybe if there had been some earlier, we wouldn't have had the problem that we had in Butte.

01:03:57.920 But at the same time, while expertise is important and Washington regulation is important,

01:04:06.540 isn't the local knowledge of Butte also important?

01:04:09.820 Can't those people, aren't those people entitled to think about cleaning up their own land

01:04:14.420 without asking people 3,000 miles away in Washington for permission?

01:04:22.060 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. 0.94

01:04:24.440 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

01:04:27.920 Thank you.

The Megyn Kelly Show - August 10, 2024

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