The Megyn Kelly Show - Biden's Lies Exposed as He Pardons Hunter, and Media Smears of Pete Hegseth, with Charles C.W. Cooke, Rich Lowry, and Marcia Clark

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00:00:30.740 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:32.540 Live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:42.200 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:00:43.980 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show and happy Monday.

00:00:46.440 I hope you had a couple of days off

00:00:48.440 thanks to the Thanksgiving holiday.

00:00:51.860 I did, we took some time off with the fam

00:00:53.680 and went to warmer climates where, you know, it's okay.

00:00:57.400 Like I don't take in the sun.

00:00:58.560 So it's constantly like a battle to avoid the sun

00:01:01.640 when we go someplace nice.

00:01:02.920 And I'm not going to lie, it was very buggy.

00:01:04.780 It was very, very buggy.

00:01:06.340 And I'm not a big bug.

00:01:07.140 However, I love my time with my family.

00:01:09.480 That was awesome.

00:01:11.260 And, you know, just a couple days off was nice too.

00:01:14.240 So I missed all of you.

00:01:16.100 I missed the news.

00:01:16.980 And we have a lot, a lot to go over.

00:01:19.500 Hope you guys had a wonderful holiday.

00:01:21.920 Okay.

00:01:22.060 Late yesterday, President Biden did something he

00:01:24.860 and his media allies have promised over and over

00:01:27.520 and over again that he would not do.

00:01:29.160 This guy is an abject liar.

00:01:31.700 He might, and he has the nerve to,

00:01:35.560 while he's telling yet another lie,

00:01:39.280 which is that he doesn't lie,

00:01:42.000 to keep lying.

00:01:43.400 Like at every turn, he just lies.

00:01:46.700 This, everyone knew he was going to pardon Hunter.

00:01:52.460 We all knew that.

00:01:53.980 At least that's my perspective.

00:01:56.100 But you see the left absolutely shocked today.

00:01:59.440 They're shocked.

00:02:00.720 Like they actually believe this guy.

00:02:02.760 What he was like, I know I'm not going to pardon him.

00:02:04.640 And we're all like, you know,

00:02:06.000 he's totally going to pardon him.

00:02:07.320 He's a liar.

00:02:08.240 That's all he does is lie.

00:02:09.600 And he was in on his son's crimes.

00:02:13.260 So yes, of course he'll be pardoning him.

00:02:15.740 But the left is like, oh, that half of them are like,

00:02:20.140 and then the other half are like, oh, he's a good father.

00:02:24.380 He loves his, it's like a good microcosm

00:02:29.560 of the divide in this country on this man,

00:02:33.300 this whole problem with the Biden crime family,

00:02:35.620 as it's called.

00:02:37.640 And really kind of, I hope yet another wake up call

00:02:41.280 to our friends on the left,

00:02:42.560 that they are consuming their news

00:02:45.220 from the wrong places.

00:02:49.000 You've been misled again.

00:02:52.420 All right, let's go through the timeline.

00:02:54.800 The dates actually are important.

00:02:56.080 It starts back in January of 14,

00:02:58.260 just before Hunter Biden joined the board of Burisma,

00:03:03.540 this Ukrainian energy company.

00:03:05.200 And Hunter had no expertise in energy whatsoever.

00:03:07.900 His dad was the sitting vice president

00:03:10.160 of the United States,

00:03:11.380 and he's been pardoned through that date,

00:03:15.300 from that date through yesterday,

00:03:17.920 the day of the pardon.

00:03:19.400 Now, why would you have to go back to all that stuff?

00:03:22.760 I mean, we all know why.

00:03:24.420 Because Joe Biden is pardoning himself

00:03:27.040 and not just his son.

00:03:29.260 He wants to make sure that all of those alleged crimes,

00:03:33.180 for which his DOJ already gave Hunter a pass,

00:03:37.900 remain untouched.

00:03:41.100 The president, after lighting this match,

00:03:44.420 promptly jetted out of town to Africa.

00:03:46.620 I mean, good on him, right?

00:03:47.940 A couple of middle fingers for everyone

00:03:49.740 right before he leaves office.

00:03:51.540 Of course, many, as I said,

00:03:53.780 knew that this promise that he's been making

00:03:55.780 over and over was empty.

00:03:58.360 We've all been saying it.

00:04:00.220 And I don't know.

00:04:03.100 Does it change anybody's view

00:04:04.240 of what's going to happen?

00:04:05.240 And most importantly, I guess the question is,

00:04:06.980 does it change what President Trump is likely to do

00:04:09.980 once he is sworn in again

00:04:12.000 with respect to the J6 defendants?

00:04:14.160 Because that's what the left is really worried about.

00:04:16.280 Joining me now, it's National Review Day

00:04:18.740 here at the MK Show.

00:04:19.900 Editor-in-Chief Rich Lowry

00:04:21.020 and senior writer Charles C.W. Cook,

00:04:23.560 host of the Charles C.W. Cook podcast.

00:04:25.260 Rich and Charlie, welcome back.

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00:05:27.020 Am I wrong?

00:05:27.940 We all knew this was coming.

00:05:29.320 Everyone who consumes media that is not far left

00:05:31.880 100% knew this was coming.

00:05:33.720 We didn't like it.

00:05:34.520 We didn't support it.

00:05:35.700 But nobody believed his lies, Rich,

00:05:37.560 that he wasn't going to do it.

00:05:39.220 Yeah.

00:05:39.420 So some lies that politicians tell are irritating

00:05:41.560 because you believe them, right?

00:05:43.140 And then you're really disappointed

00:05:44.220 when they turned out they were lying to you.

00:05:45.720 This is irritating because it was so blatantly obvious, right?

00:05:49.240 And the honorable thing to do would have been said,

00:05:51.820 say, no comment when asked about this

00:05:53.600 or I'm not going to address hypotheticals or whatever.

00:05:56.540 Instead, they blatantly lied.

00:05:57.840 It was part of the scheme.

00:05:59.260 As soon as he considered it,

00:06:01.060 back in June, he started lying about it.

00:06:04.920 So this, but it's typical Biden.

00:06:07.340 You know, this great protector of our norms

00:06:10.000 and small d democratic politics

00:06:12.360 has been a dishonest hack his entire life.

00:06:16.340 So this is a proper and fitting coda

00:06:19.960 to his sordid career.

00:06:22.680 Yeah.

00:06:23.300 There here is just a little of,

00:06:25.140 for those of you who forgot it, of Joe Biden,

00:06:27.280 here's one example of him making that promise.

00:06:29.840 What's the date of this first one?

00:06:31.020 Debbie sought one.

00:06:31.760 We'll find it.

00:06:32.240 Listen here.

00:06:33.940 Will you accept the jury's outcome,

00:06:36.500 their verdict, no matter what it is?

00:06:38.360 Yes.

00:06:39.300 And have you ruled out a pardon for your son?

00:06:41.760 Yes.

00:06:42.260 I'm extremely proud of my son, Hunter.

00:06:44.520 He has overcome an addiction.

00:06:46.120 He is, he's one of the brightest,

00:06:49.120 most decent men I know.

00:06:50.780 And I am satisfied that I'm not going to do anything.

00:06:55.080 I said, I said, I'd abide by the jury decision.

00:06:57.640 I will do that and I will not pardon him.

00:07:00.940 Those are all from June.

00:07:02.620 I mean, he went back, Charles.

00:07:03.860 We know that.

00:07:04.420 But those are just, that's just June.

00:07:06.040 It's not like a lifetime ago.

00:07:07.660 And he issues this infuriating statement.

00:07:11.420 I mean, infuriating, acting like a bunch of stuff

00:07:14.740 has happened, you know, between then and now

00:07:18.160 that really changes his whole perspective on everything.

00:07:20.960 It's really not true.

00:07:22.480 He says the following.

00:07:25.160 This is crazy.

00:07:26.420 People are almost never brought to trial on felony charges

00:07:28.560 solely for how they filled out a gun form.

00:07:30.800 As if this is really all just about the gun, right?

00:07:33.340 That is the trial that he had.

00:07:35.020 But there's a reason he was only tried at that trial

00:07:38.080 on the gun form thing.

00:07:39.620 He goes on to say that those who were late paying their taxes

00:07:42.300 because of serious addictions,

00:07:45.140 but then paid them back subsequently with interest and penalties

00:07:47.880 are typically given non-criminal resolutions.

00:07:50.340 It is clear the hunter was treated differently.

00:07:52.880 This is so galling, Charlie.

00:07:54.780 So galling.

00:07:56.720 It's hard to know where to start with this.

00:07:58.940 It's so galling.

00:07:59.780 The backdrop to this, of course, is that prior to becoming vice president,

00:08:05.280 then retiring and then becoming president,

00:08:07.640 Joe Biden's main contribution to the canon of American law

00:08:11.720 was to increase the penalties for gun crimes and drug crimes,

00:08:17.900 and often to increase the penalties where those two things intersected.

00:08:22.160 He spent years, decades, railing against people who had addiction

00:08:28.020 and saying that it didn't matter.

00:08:30.200 There's a speech he gave in the Senate where he says it doesn't matter.

00:08:33.560 That's not what's important, whether people are addicted or not.

00:08:36.200 So the history here is interesting in and of itself.

00:08:41.900 But the chutzpah of this statement,

00:08:45.020 NBC News published a piece, a reported piece this afternoon,

00:08:50.760 in which it suggests that Joe Biden had decided in June

00:08:57.180 that he was going to say that he would not pardon his son,

00:09:01.340 even though the plan was to pardon his son.

00:09:05.940 But it wasn't just that he lied about it and then changed his mind.

00:09:10.760 The plan was to lie about it and then change his mind.

00:09:14.860 You can look it up.

00:09:15.600 Go read the NBC News story.

00:09:17.580 That was part of the whole approach.

00:09:20.500 And then he has the temerity in the statement that you just quoted from

00:09:26.540 to finish it by saying,

00:09:28.780 throughout my entire career, I've had one principle to which I have hewed,

00:09:35.140 and that's to tell the American people the truth.

00:09:37.880 So he says that in the statement in which he is announcing a pardon

00:09:43.180 that he had said for six months, having planned to do so,

00:09:47.980 that he was not going to pardon his son.

00:09:49.860 I mean, you just could not write it.

00:09:53.000 It's extraordinary.

00:09:54.340 The whole thing is such a great example of corruption.

00:09:56.960 And what makes it more annoying than most of Biden's annoying habits

00:10:03.860 is that this has been used over and over and over again

00:10:08.840 to demonstrate Biden's supposed moral superiority,

00:10:13.060 his integrity, his honesty, his willingness to stick to the rules,

00:10:16.660 what separates him from others,

00:10:18.760 why one has to vote for him or his vice president,

00:10:22.060 because he's the sort of man, you see,

00:10:24.920 who understands the rule of law, respects the rule of law,

00:10:28.860 even when his own son is involved.

00:10:31.200 And of course, it just turns out that it was an election year ploy

00:10:34.560 and the whole thing was a massive lie.

00:10:36.240 And that's before we get, as I'm sure we will,

00:10:38.680 to what you were adumbrating earlier,

00:10:40.680 which is this bizarre super pardon that covers activity for 10 years,

00:10:47.120 much of which hasn't yet been prosecuted.

00:10:50.680 You know, the thing about this, as you say, multi-layered here,

00:10:54.580 but one of the things about this that really gets me

00:10:57.120 is he's trying to make a victor out of hunting.

00:10:59.520 It's clear Hunter was treated differently.

00:11:02.240 He's trying to make a victim out of him.

00:11:03.980 And as opposed to like, you know,

00:11:05.760 if you guys lied and said that your payments on strippers

00:11:10.280 and hookers were tax write-offs,

00:11:13.420 like you wouldn't be prosecuted.

00:11:15.020 You know, it was just poor Hunter who had to deal with that.

00:11:17.580 And it was really just his addiction.

00:11:19.360 Like if usually addicts just get a pass,

00:11:22.540 it's only poor Hunter who didn't.

00:11:24.820 And the audience has heard me talk about this

00:11:26.440 in bits and pieces over the years.

00:11:27.680 And I'll just offer this.

00:11:29.320 My own sister got swept up into the opioid crisis.

00:11:35.160 And truly, it was truly not through fault of her own.

00:11:38.040 She was, she needed a pain medication

00:11:41.060 after this incident she suffered.

00:11:44.080 And they gave her this drug and specifically told her,

00:11:46.360 like we saw in Dope Sick with respect to Oxycontin,

00:11:49.680 though her drug was not Oxycontin,

00:11:51.480 that it wasn't addictive.

00:11:53.000 So she started taking this drug

00:11:54.500 and sure enough, she got addicted.

00:11:56.360 And then she got really addicted.

00:11:58.340 And her life went to hell.

00:12:00.260 I mean, just, we'd never had, you know,

00:12:03.380 an alcoholic or drug addict.

00:12:05.260 You know, that wasn't a thing

00:12:06.240 that was really in our family.

00:12:07.860 And my poor sister's life got completely blown up

00:12:12.020 by this thing, by this addiction,

00:12:13.740 to the point where she ultimately,

00:12:16.280 once the family sort of tried to let her

00:12:17.780 have a hard love, a tough love period,

00:12:19.860 where we weren't helping her out of the jams

00:12:21.720 that she was creating,

00:12:23.280 found herself in the throes of the criminal law.

00:12:26.000 I mean, it was petty andy stuff,

00:12:27.140 but she did wind up on the wrong side.

00:12:29.760 And you know what she did?

00:12:31.280 She had to handle it.

00:12:32.440 She had to get a public defender.

00:12:33.980 She had to handle the penalty.

00:12:35.960 She didn't go to jail or anything like that.

00:12:37.000 But she, it remained a mark on her record forever.

00:12:41.840 And you know what that does to a person?

00:12:43.540 You can't get a job.

00:12:45.280 You cannot get a damn job because it's on there.

00:12:49.160 And no one gives a damn that you were addicted.

00:12:53.460 No one cares about that backstory I just gave to you.

00:12:56.420 So fuck you, Joe Biden,

00:12:58.180 and your sob story about your rich,

00:13:00.620 spoiled presidential kid, Hunter Biden,

00:13:02.960 and how he's been singled out.

00:13:04.520 Because I know I speak for millions of people

00:13:07.400 who have an addict in their family

00:13:09.100 who did something they're not proud of,

00:13:11.020 who could never get out from under it.

00:13:14.100 We have no sympathy for you, Hunter Biden,

00:13:17.640 and even less for you, Joe Biden,

00:13:19.900 because you enabled all of it.

00:13:21.700 You were using him to line your own pocket.

00:13:24.680 That is what the emails suggest,

00:13:26.400 10% for the big guy and Tony Bobulinski and others.

00:13:29.600 And Rich, this is why,

00:13:30.660 just one of the many pieces,

00:13:31.640 why this whole thing is so irritating.

00:13:34.520 Yeah, so I think everyone has sympathy

00:13:37.300 for his addiction, right?

00:13:38.980 I go on this New York radio show, Sid Rosenberg.

00:13:42.240 He was one of the warmup acts at MSG,

00:13:46.220 and he had terrible addiction problems,

00:13:47.860 blew up his whole radio career.

00:13:49.100 He says, you know, you hate yourself

00:13:50.820 every single time you do it, right?

00:13:53.360 And I'm sure Hunter was there

00:13:55.300 with that self-loathing as well.

00:13:57.120 No one just criticized him for that,

00:13:58.700 except for maybe some dumb things

00:13:59.840 Matt Gaetz said along the line.

00:14:01.460 The problem was the crimes, right?

00:14:03.660 And the idea that he was a victim

00:14:06.100 of Joe Biden's own Justice Department,

00:14:08.960 when clearly the original plan

00:14:10.860 was to have the holdover DA up there,

00:14:14.260 just slow walk this and do nothing about it, right?

00:14:17.620 That was the first idea.

00:14:19.020 And then when there was public pressure about it

00:14:21.560 and accountability about it,

00:14:22.800 then they came up with this plea deal, right?

00:14:25.480 That the president refers to

00:14:27.560 as a carefully negotiated plea deal,

00:14:29.740 which might be the truest phrase

00:14:31.180 in the entire statement.

00:14:32.260 Yes, it was carefully negotiated

00:14:33.980 to give Hunter every possible break

00:14:37.560 and to make this thing basically go away.

00:14:40.320 And then he complains in the statement

00:14:41.920 that there was outside pressure

00:14:43.480 about the plea deal.

00:14:44.460 Yeah, people pointed out it was a travesty

00:14:46.760 and that it couldn't survive first contact

00:14:48.980 with an independent judge.

00:14:50.580 That's when it blew up.

00:14:51.980 So the idea that it was Joe Biden's haters

00:14:55.460 who were responsible for the plea deal going away

00:14:59.200 or the plea deal was straight up at the beginning,

00:15:02.620 this was crazy.

00:15:03.780 He was afforded every possible consideration

00:15:06.680 by Biden's Justice Department

00:15:07.800 until it became unsustainable.

00:15:09.840 And then he was treated more or less

00:15:11.360 like anyone else in one of these cases.

00:15:13.880 And look, most fathers-

00:15:14.560 But only when they were forced.

00:15:16.320 Yeah, when they were forced.

00:15:17.240 And most fathers, yeah, they would do this, right?

00:15:19.380 They would pardon him.

00:15:20.200 They wouldn't see him go to jail

00:15:21.720 if they had the power to do that,

00:15:23.460 which everyone knew, right?

00:15:24.860 Which is why one of the reasons we knew it was a lie.

00:15:26.860 And then finally, it doesn't mention at all,

00:15:29.540 even though the dates, as you point out,

00:15:32.800 encompass this conduct, the self-dealing

00:15:35.400 and the Biden lobbying and influence peddling business,

00:15:39.480 which is what everyone was after, right?

00:15:41.460 The gun charge is penny ante compared to that stuff.

00:15:44.420 And because the prosecutor up there

00:15:46.480 let the statute of limitations kind of roll on

00:15:49.380 and most of this stuff get past it,

00:15:52.860 that'll never be prosecuted.

00:15:54.340 And that was the real abuse of public trust.

00:15:57.840 I'm just now realizing the saying is petty ante.

00:16:01.040 That makes more sense.

00:16:02.200 Or penny, penny ante, not petty ante.

00:16:04.360 That makes so much more sense

00:16:05.640 because if you ante only a penny, it's nothing.

00:16:08.020 Okay, things you learn on camera.

00:16:11.520 Yeah, my note next to this statement

00:16:14.040 that we're going through,

00:16:15.740 here's my note,

00:16:16.320 especially the part I just read about serious addictions.

00:16:18.780 F you, F you, F you, F you.

00:16:21.560 It just feels personal to me.

00:16:23.640 For anybody who's got an addict in the family

00:16:25.900 who had to actually live up to the consequences

00:16:28.000 of their bad choices,

00:16:28.980 I think is the way I am.

00:16:29.080 You should auction off your unexpurgated show notes

00:16:34.200 at some point for charity.

00:16:36.480 Yeah, I'll do it.

00:16:37.660 I mean, it'd have to be a charity

00:16:38.900 that has a tolerance for body mouth.

00:16:40.720 Here is the part that Rich was referring to, Charles,

00:16:45.100 just to fill out what this statement by Biden says,

00:16:48.480 how it reads.

00:16:49.260 The charges in his cases came about

00:16:51.860 only after several of my political opponents in Congress

00:16:55.080 instigated them to attack me and oppose my election.

00:16:59.220 Then a carefully negotiated plea deal

00:17:02.260 agreed to by the Department of Justice

00:17:04.960 unraveled in the courtroom

00:17:06.780 with a number of my political opponents in Congress

00:17:09.580 taking credit for bringing political pressure

00:17:12.560 on the process.

00:17:15.060 No reasonable person who looks at the facts

00:17:16.900 of Hunter's cases can reach any other conclusion

00:17:19.060 than Hunter was singled out

00:17:21.240 only because he is my son and that is wrong.

00:17:26.220 Like the miscast of what actually happened here,

00:17:30.560 that the charges only came about

00:17:32.680 after several of my political opponents

00:17:34.720 instigated them to attack me.

00:17:36.560 No, he was shielded from those charges,

00:17:39.940 which were serious felonies

00:17:42.360 as outlined by those two IRS whistleblowers

00:17:45.380 who since came forward.

00:17:47.340 He was shielded by you because of his name

00:17:51.240 and by others because of his name.

00:17:53.040 And only when the whistleblowers came forward

00:17:55.260 and it became very clear what had happened

00:17:57.020 within the DOJ and the IRS

00:17:58.540 was the DOJ forced to bring what was left

00:18:02.940 of the charges

00:18:04.060 because the vast majority of them

00:18:05.880 had been intentionally allowed to expire.

00:18:08.600 Yeah, so however you look at this,

00:18:12.720 there's a hole in the logic from Biden.

00:18:15.780 So the first thing is Biden's the president.

00:18:17.920 He's in charge of the executive branch,

00:18:19.780 Article 2.

00:18:21.100 So are we saying that he instructed the DOJ

00:18:24.980 to do this erroneously?

00:18:26.720 Well, if not, then he's outsourced it.

00:18:30.220 And then we have to believe

00:18:31.040 that Merrick Garland is some rogue

00:18:33.140 within the DOJ,

00:18:35.100 which he seems not to be.

00:18:36.800 I doubt Biden would agree with that.

00:18:39.740 And then you get to the second option,

00:18:42.520 which is that the DOJ

00:18:44.300 is part of the deep state,

00:18:46.240 which is something that the Bidens of the world

00:18:48.160 say doesn't exist.

00:18:49.660 And if this is what the DOJ does

00:18:52.080 because of political pressure

00:18:53.500 from television and Congress

00:18:54.840 and the dust of the Republican Party,

00:18:57.160 then surely Donald Trump has a point

00:18:58.940 about the nature of the bureaucracy.

00:19:01.520 But I don't think that

00:19:02.820 they would concede that.

00:19:06.940 Then you've got

00:19:08.060 the question that arises,

00:19:10.600 if neither of those is true,

00:19:12.740 then ought we to have the laws

00:19:14.680 under which Biden,

00:19:17.080 Hunter Biden, that is,

00:19:18.460 was prosecuted?

00:19:19.440 And one thing I keep hearing today

00:19:21.660 from anyone who is defending this

00:19:23.460 or half defending this is,

00:19:24.900 well, we don't prosecute

00:19:27.340 people who lie on Form 4473,

00:19:30.940 which is a form that was created

00:19:32.740 subsequent to the Gun Control Act of 1968

00:19:35.260 that asks various questions.

00:19:37.680 Are you a felon?

00:19:38.540 Are you a citizen?

00:19:39.580 Are you addicted to illegal substances?

00:19:41.660 And so forth.

00:19:43.080 Well, if the case is that it's outrageous

00:19:45.840 to prosecute someone for lying on that form,

00:19:48.740 could we get rid of it?

00:19:50.440 Can we perhaps pardon everyone else

00:19:52.500 who has been sent to prison

00:19:54.840 or convicted of a felony

00:19:56.800 based on their lies on that form?

00:20:00.140 If we don't prosecute people

00:20:01.960 for being under the influence

00:20:03.560 while in possession of a firearm,

00:20:05.380 maybe we have a lot of work

00:20:06.900 to do as a country

00:20:07.760 in getting those people out of prison

00:20:10.180 and getting their records expunged as well.

00:20:12.520 And yet what I hear from...

00:20:13.560 Right now.

00:20:14.400 Right.

00:20:14.780 But what I hear from Joe Biden

00:20:16.660 is actually the opposite rhetoric.

00:20:18.740 So what you will hear now

00:20:20.360 is on the one hand

00:20:21.660 that the biggest problem

00:20:22.920 that the United States faces

00:20:24.340 in its tax system

00:20:25.420 is people who cheat.

00:20:26.920 People who don't pay the taxes their own.

00:20:28.800 Wealthy people

00:20:29.580 who instead of putting money

00:20:31.520 into the treasury

00:20:32.300 go out and spend it frivolously.

00:20:34.360 For example,

00:20:34.940 let's just say

00:20:35.620 on sports cars and strippers,

00:20:39.280 which Hunter seems to have done,

00:20:41.240 which is why I'm told

00:20:42.240 we need 87,000 new IRS agents.

00:20:44.640 We need to beef up audits

00:20:45.740 and so on and so forth.

00:20:46.800 That's on the one hand.

00:20:47.540 But on the other hand,

00:20:48.540 we've got guns too.

00:20:50.240 The problem with the United States

00:20:51.560 at the moment in that realm

00:20:53.000 is that we don't have enough gun laws

00:20:54.280 and we don't enforce them properly.

00:20:55.880 We have an under-regulation issue

00:20:58.020 in America

00:20:58.580 and this is a huge problem.

00:21:00.160 Right.

00:21:00.700 On this piece of paper

00:21:02.160 that Joe Biden put out yesterday, though,

00:21:05.160 it says that

00:21:05.980 no one would have gone after anyone

00:21:08.360 for these sorts of crimes

00:21:10.480 unless they were called Hunter Biden.

00:21:12.520 So which is it?

00:21:14.340 Do we have a problem

00:21:15.220 with rich tax cheats

00:21:16.640 who are not caught by the system

00:21:18.560 and a total lack of enforcement

00:21:20.800 of those who are not supposed

00:21:22.460 to own guns owning guns?

00:21:24.100 Or is it the case

00:21:25.240 that the only people

00:21:26.140 who would ever be prosecuted

00:21:27.540 for this stuff,

00:21:28.320 even when the evidence

00:21:29.180 is overwhelming

00:21:29.880 as it was in this case,

00:21:31.720 are Hunter Biden

00:21:32.560 because of his political connections?

00:21:33.940 You've got to pick one.

00:21:34.860 And it's another aspect of this

00:21:36.180 that I just find so irritating.

00:21:37.440 It's that basically

00:21:38.640 Joe Biden's position is

00:21:39.980 we need to go after people

00:21:41.560 who illegally purchase firearms

00:21:43.300 who are not allowed

00:21:44.320 to own firearms

00:21:45.020 and we need to go after

00:21:46.260 wealthy tax cheats

00:21:47.320 unless they're called

00:21:48.380 Hunter Biden.

00:21:49.780 I mean, it's just

00:21:50.280 there's no way

00:21:51.740 of getting around it.

00:21:53.520 Yeah.

00:21:53.760 No, you think about

00:21:54.620 all the people

00:21:55.100 who are being prosecuted

00:21:56.220 right now

00:21:57.320 for being tax cheats

00:21:59.780 and how they're feeling today.

00:22:01.620 That I guess if I stole more,

00:22:04.040 if I cheated even worse,

00:22:05.760 maybe I could get

00:22:06.860 the Hunter Biden exception

00:22:08.100 because, you know,

00:22:09.160 I'm told by the president

00:22:10.080 of the United States

00:22:10.700 that those who are late

00:22:11.860 paying our taxes

00:22:12.640 because of serious addictions

00:22:13.780 but then pay them back

00:22:15.000 subsequently with interest

00:22:15.960 and penalties

00:22:16.520 are typically given

00:22:17.500 non-criminal resolutions.

00:22:18.940 Well, what if you're

00:22:19.480 one of the ones

00:22:19.940 who wasn't given that

00:22:21.180 and you're looking

00:22:22.240 at this statement today

00:22:23.160 or what if you're

00:22:23.660 one of the ones

00:22:24.080 who was prosecuted

00:22:24.660 under this gun form

00:22:25.580 and you have

00:22:26.700 a very different result

00:22:27.560 than Hunter Biden?

00:22:29.000 And of course,

00:22:29.700 you know, Rich,

00:22:30.100 now what we're hearing is,

00:22:31.620 well, Trump pardoned

00:22:33.760 Jared Kushner's dad

00:22:35.180 and just made him

00:22:37.240 ambassador to France

00:22:38.200 and Bill Clinton

00:22:40.460 pardoned his half-brother,

00:22:43.520 step-brother

00:22:44.280 over drug charge,

00:22:46.020 but both those guys

00:22:46.800 had served their sentence.

00:22:48.580 They had paid the penalty

00:22:50.480 that a jury

00:22:51.660 had inflicted on them

00:22:53.220 and had lived up

00:22:54.340 to what, you know,

00:22:55.140 the DOJ required of them,

00:22:56.300 which was sit for a trial,

00:22:57.720 listen to what a jury finds

00:22:58.900 and then serve the sentence.

00:23:00.280 Yeah.

00:23:00.600 That's not what's happened here.

00:23:02.160 Yeah, so it's not just

00:23:03.960 that he's not going

00:23:04.380 to serve the sentence.

00:23:05.480 As NR's Andy McCarthy

00:23:06.920 has pointed out,

00:23:07.640 the timing here,

00:23:08.360 which is a little weird,

00:23:09.740 Sunday and a holiday weekend,

00:23:11.060 okay, maybe that makes sense

00:23:11.960 if you want to bury the news,

00:23:13.120 but you would have thought

00:23:14.360 he'd waited right to the end

00:23:16.040 of his administration

00:23:17.940 and said,

00:23:18.880 why is he doing it now?

00:23:19.720 Because he doesn't want

00:23:20.300 sentencing to happen,

00:23:21.500 which is when,

00:23:22.080 you know this better than I do,

00:23:23.180 but that's when the felony

00:23:24.280 is actually recorded, right?

00:23:25.640 When you technically become

00:23:27.020 a convicted felon.

00:23:28.220 So this stops him

00:23:29.120 from being a convicted felon.

00:23:30.940 So not just not getting sentenced

00:23:33.440 or going to jail,

00:23:34.160 but he won't actually be a felon

00:23:36.460 for these crimes.

00:23:37.980 And it wasn't just that

00:23:39.280 on the gun charge, right,

00:23:40.820 that he lied on the form

00:23:42.040 and then he safely put the gun

00:23:43.440 in his safe

00:23:44.020 and that was it.

00:23:45.720 There is this turmoil in his life

00:23:47.500 and I guess what his girlfriend

00:23:49.060 or his wife at the time

00:23:50.540 has to,

00:23:51.260 his worry is going to do harm

00:23:52.440 to himself with a gun

00:23:53.260 and dumps it in a trash can

00:23:54.940 on the school grounds

00:23:56.120 or near school grounds.

00:23:57.400 So there's a major

00:23:58.420 aggravating factor there

00:24:00.180 and you also hit on a key point

00:24:02.740 just a moment ago.

00:24:04.260 It's not just that

00:24:05.040 Biden's political opponents

00:24:06.340 were on this.

00:24:07.260 James Comer was a political opponent.

00:24:08.580 I think he did great work

00:24:09.680 and just because he's a political opponent

00:24:11.220 doesn't mean he wasn't on to something

00:24:13.080 or it wasn't legitimate,

00:24:14.060 but there are whistleblowers.

00:24:15.520 They really forced this

00:24:16.960 and if there's anything

00:24:17.820 we've known from the media

00:24:19.200 and from Hollywood,

00:24:20.320 whistleblowers are good, right?

00:24:22.300 They uncover wrongdoing.

00:24:24.340 They should be honored

00:24:25.060 for their bravery,

00:24:26.040 but in this case,

00:24:26.980 they've been disappeared.

00:24:28.720 But they were a key aspect

00:24:30.700 to getting this case moving

00:24:32.000 because they were so appalled

00:24:33.460 by what they were seeing

00:24:34.800 because they knew

00:24:35.420 it was special treatment

00:24:36.400 of someone who had

00:24:37.760 a political connection.

00:24:39.500 Yes.

00:24:40.080 If it hadn't been

00:24:41.200 for those guys,

00:24:43.340 who knows what would have happened,

00:24:44.600 but they came out and said

00:24:45.520 this was,

00:24:46.200 there were so many felonies

00:24:47.600 that this guy committed.

00:24:49.180 And they said to me on this show

00:24:50.580 and to many others

00:24:51.280 and before Congress as well,

00:24:52.940 we absolutely would normally

00:24:54.960 go after a person

00:24:55.880 who had done

00:24:56.360 what Hunter Biden did.

00:24:57.660 Absolutely.

00:24:59.100 In no way would that have been

00:25:01.060 because he was the president's

00:25:03.140 or at the time

00:25:03.980 he committed the crimes,

00:25:04.700 the vice president's son.

00:25:05.680 If anything,

00:25:06.280 that was an impediment

00:25:07.020 just even on paper,

00:25:08.760 never mind when the DOJ

00:25:09.820 actively started to slow roll it.

00:25:12.160 You know,

00:25:12.280 they're careful about

00:25:13.200 going after somebody

00:25:14.340 who's a public figure.

00:25:15.120 But absolutely,

00:25:16.680 Joe Schmo would have been charged

00:25:18.600 on all of these crimes.

00:25:20.560 And let's not forget

00:25:21.540 there's the whole matter of,

00:25:22.740 you know,

00:25:23.200 acting as a foreign agent

00:25:24.260 with respect to Burisma

00:25:25.360 and the Chinese and all this is,

00:25:27.140 there's this other sea

00:25:27.840 of potential criminality

00:25:28.980 dating back to 2014,

00:25:30.440 all of which was allowed to expire

00:25:33.260 thanks to the Biden Justice Department.

00:25:36.720 And all you need to do

00:25:37.920 is listen to Andy's weekly podcast

00:25:40.460 with Rich,

00:25:41.640 the Andy McCarthy podcast,

00:25:42.920 because they've gone over this

00:25:45.040 in great detail for years now.

00:25:46.680 And, you know,

00:25:47.240 if you listen to it

00:25:47.960 and if you watch this show too,

00:25:49.420 because we talk about it as well,

00:25:50.980 then you know,

00:25:51.540 this is a long,

00:25:52.600 long list of crimes

00:25:54.040 that Hunter Biden

00:25:54.920 is accused of having committed,

00:25:56.820 almost all of which

00:25:57.900 were whitewashed away

00:25:59.480 thanks to statutes of limitation

00:26:00.960 being allowed to expire

00:26:03.040 by Democratic-controlled DOJs.

00:26:07.980 However,

00:26:09.460 this is,

00:26:10.100 today I think it's an issue

00:26:11.680 because the left that's mad

00:26:14.140 thinks Trump will use it

00:26:15.820 as an excuse

00:26:17.220 to pardon the J6 defendants.

00:26:21.960 He doesn't need an excuse.

00:26:24.040 He's been saying,

00:26:25.720 running for office,

00:26:26.600 he was going to do it.

00:26:27.720 Like,

00:26:28.180 I guess this makes it

00:26:29.580 a little bit softer

00:26:30.980 when he does it,

00:26:31.940 but okay,

00:26:33.120 that's what they're going to say.

00:26:34.760 And,

00:26:34.860 but I think the other problem

00:26:35.940 with it for the left

00:26:37.080 is that they're embarrassed

00:26:38.940 because they actually did

00:26:41.400 like either actually believe him

00:26:44.640 or just openly

00:26:45.940 pretended to believe him.

00:26:48.560 And now they look like fools.

00:26:51.340 Here are three examples together.

00:26:54.460 Stephanie Rule

00:26:55.300 from June,

00:26:57.660 Mika Brzezinski

00:26:58.480 from June,

00:27:00.020 and former deputy U.S. attorney

00:27:01.680 Andrew Weissman,

00:27:02.420 who's an MSNBC fixture.

00:27:03.940 It's a montage of him.

00:27:07.520 Take a listen.

00:27:08.620 The latest attack

00:27:10.140 has been that Joe Biden

00:27:11.580 has politicized

00:27:12.720 and weaponized the DOJ,

00:27:14.420 right?

00:27:14.620 That was the whole argument

00:27:15.700 around Donald Trump's conviction.

00:27:17.780 And this week,

00:27:18.360 of course,

00:27:19.060 Hunter Biden

00:27:19.640 was found guilty

00:27:20.400 and Joe Biden

00:27:21.500 has very clearly said

00:27:23.240 he would not pardon his son,

00:27:24.920 he would not commute his sentence.

00:27:26.560 How stark

00:27:27.600 is this difference?

00:27:29.100 I mean,

00:27:29.300 how can Republicans

00:27:30.300 keep making this argument

00:27:31.480 now that Joe Biden

00:27:33.220 has really put it out there?

00:27:34.960 Where's Hunter?

00:27:36.840 And he stood there

00:27:37.800 in a courtroom,

00:27:38.600 flanked by his family,

00:27:40.020 and he's accepted his sentence.

00:27:41.320 The current president

00:27:42.160 of the United States

00:27:43.500 has so much respect

00:27:45.860 for the law

00:27:46.600 that he has said

00:27:47.380 he would not pardon his son.

00:27:49.640 I mean,

00:27:50.200 what,

00:27:50.960 you know,

00:27:51.420 again,

00:27:52.200 it's all about the contrast.

00:27:54.060 President Biden

00:27:54.760 saying,

00:27:55.420 I will respect

00:27:56.040 whatever this jury decides

00:27:57.640 versus Donald Trump

00:27:58.760 after he was convicted

00:27:59.640 on 34 counts,

00:28:00.780 saying the entire system

00:28:01.940 is rigged against him.

00:28:03.600 He is not pardoning

00:28:04.960 his son,

00:28:06.680 which he could do.

00:28:07.780 These are federal charges.

00:28:09.220 He is not doing that.

00:28:10.300 He's not doing it

00:28:10.920 because he is living

00:28:12.340 what it means

00:28:13.640 to have a rule of law

00:28:15.640 in this country.

00:28:16.620 He did not pardon his son.

00:28:18.260 He did not order

00:28:18.980 the Department of Justice

00:28:19.940 to say,

00:28:21.440 don't prosecute my son.

00:28:22.900 So impressive.

00:28:24.100 The contrast

00:28:24.480 is so clear

00:28:26.580 in terms of decency

00:28:28.520 and principle

00:28:29.580 and transactional

00:28:32.040 guidances

00:28:35.140 in terms of

00:28:35.940 how you view the world.

00:28:37.020 What is before us

00:28:38.280 is a president

00:28:39.840 who is living

00:28:41.320 the rule of law.

00:28:43.180 He is living

00:28:43.920 in the most

00:28:44.900 personal way.

00:28:49.040 What he is actually living by

00:28:50.880 is his own son

00:28:52.040 is being prosecuted

00:28:52.520 and he is

00:28:53.920 allowing the norms

00:28:55.960 that are required

00:28:57.200 to live in a democracy

00:28:58.280 to go forward.

00:29:00.900 Getting a little

00:29:01.700 misty-eyed, Rich.

00:29:02.820 That was really

00:29:03.280 quite moving.

00:29:06.420 They humiliated themselves.

00:29:08.940 Oh, totally.

00:29:09.900 And it also goes to

00:29:10.860 it's easier to lie

00:29:12.040 when you're a Democrat

00:29:12.620 because you have

00:29:13.400 all these people

00:29:14.320 with major media platforms

00:29:15.860 just willing to swallow it.

00:29:17.640 And what contempt

00:29:18.880 does Joe Biden have

00:29:20.060 for his media allies, right?

00:29:21.540 If you're a man of decency

00:29:22.960 and you've lied

00:29:24.100 and you have other people

00:29:25.120 making idiots in themselves

00:29:26.540 by believing their lies,

00:29:28.040 you might feel

00:29:29.000 a little guilty about that.

00:29:30.240 Apparently none whatsoever.

00:29:32.500 They're played like fools.

00:29:34.460 And look,

00:29:34.840 some of these people

00:29:35.320 might be sincere

00:29:36.280 about protecting

00:29:37.040 democratic norms,

00:29:38.260 but Joe Biden

00:29:38.840 was always

00:29:39.400 a horrible vessel for it.

00:29:41.740 And it's just

00:29:42.860 a symptom of our time

00:29:44.460 that people can't say,

00:29:45.760 you know what,

00:29:46.000 I don't like Trump,

00:29:47.060 but Biden is

00:29:48.220 a dishonest hack

00:29:49.960 who's been peddling,

00:29:51.040 you know,

00:29:51.480 his family

00:29:52.180 has been benefiting

00:29:52.820 off his name forever,

00:29:55.260 right?

00:29:55.680 Both those things

00:29:56.340 can be true,

00:29:57.740 but they won't.

00:29:58.360 They needed to put him

00:29:59.580 on a pedestal

00:30:00.640 that was made out

00:30:02.920 like it was

00:30:03.520 this steadfast marble

00:30:05.280 that could never be toppled.

00:30:06.780 And the thing

00:30:07.180 was styrofoam

00:30:08.620 all along.

00:30:09.340 It was a complete lie

00:30:10.500 from the beginning

00:30:11.080 to the end.

00:30:12.300 And here's the thing,

00:30:13.340 just to put the lie

00:30:14.640 to the lie,

00:30:15.380 back to that portion

00:30:16.280 of the statement

00:30:16.720 that you referenced,

00:30:17.460 Charlotte,

00:30:17.720 I didn't yet read.

00:30:18.460 For my entire career,

00:30:20.060 I have followed

00:30:20.780 a simple principle.

00:30:22.800 Just tell the American people

00:30:24.120 the truth.

00:30:25.360 They'll be fair-minded.

00:30:27.040 Well, here's the truth.

00:30:28.520 I believe in the justice system,

00:30:30.100 but as I have wrestled

00:30:31.160 with this,

00:30:32.000 I also believe

00:30:33.020 raw politics

00:30:33.940 has infested

00:30:34.780 this process

00:30:35.500 and it led

00:30:36.480 to a miscarriage

00:30:37.520 of justice.

00:30:38.640 And once I made

00:30:39.400 this decision

00:30:39.960 this weekend,

00:30:41.640 there was no sense

00:30:42.660 in delaying further.

00:30:43.620 Okay,

00:30:44.620 nothing has happened

00:30:46.460 between his June statements

00:30:49.020 that he would not

00:30:50.060 pardon Hunter

00:30:50.720 and now

00:30:52.200 to change

00:30:53.640 any of the facts

00:30:55.560 that he's relying on

00:30:56.840 in his statement

00:30:57.320 for why he's doing

00:30:58.060 the pardon.

00:30:58.720 Like,

00:30:59.080 everything that he's

00:30:59.840 pointing to

00:31:00.340 happened before

00:31:02.000 Hunter was found

00:31:03.220 guilty in June,

00:31:04.840 which is,

00:31:05.980 the case only came about

00:31:07.200 after several of my

00:31:08.100 political opponents

00:31:08.920 in Congress

00:31:09.440 instigated them

00:31:10.400 to attack me.

00:31:11.620 We've shown the audience

00:31:13.060 that that's not true,

00:31:13.880 but that,

00:31:14.560 even if that is true,

00:31:15.340 that all happened

00:31:15.940 well before June

00:31:16.980 where he said

00:31:18.020 he was not going

00:31:18.840 to pardon them.

00:31:19.800 Then a carefully negotiated

00:31:21.140 plea deal fell apart.

00:31:22.960 That, again,

00:31:23.800 happened long before June.

00:31:26.560 Hunter was singled out

00:31:27.700 only because he's my son,

00:31:29.500 blah, blah, blah.

00:31:30.200 This is all before June.

00:31:32.000 So then he finishes it with,

00:31:34.020 I've always followed

00:31:35.140 a simple principle.

00:31:35.760 Just tell the American people

00:31:36.920 the truth.

00:31:38.060 Here's the truth.

00:31:39.760 The raw politics

00:31:40.740 has infested this process,

00:31:42.620 blah, blah, blah.

00:31:43.060 So, I mean,

00:31:44.840 there's absolutely no question

00:31:46.400 that it's all a lie

00:31:47.820 and he doesn't really care

00:31:50.600 whether people know it or not.

00:31:52.740 And I actually wondered

00:31:53.680 whether, you know,

00:31:54.880 you're right,

00:31:55.660 he didn't want sentencing

00:31:56.480 to happen,

00:31:57.120 but I actually wondered

00:31:58.300 because he could have done it

00:31:59.480 on, like, Thursday night.

00:32:01.040 If you really want to bury something

00:32:02.280 over Thanksgiving holiday,

00:32:03.460 you release it Wednesday night

00:32:04.800 or Thursday night.

00:32:06.040 People are with their families.

00:32:07.500 I actually wondered

00:32:08.200 whether this is a middle finger

00:32:10.240 to the media

00:32:11.240 because you know

00:32:12.420 it's going to get coverage

00:32:13.520 if you do it the Sunday

00:32:14.640 before the Monday

00:32:15.700 that all the press returns

00:32:16.980 to the news cycle,

00:32:18.580 most of whom are too lazy

00:32:19.640 to go back and figure out

00:32:20.660 what happened over the past six days

00:32:22.100 and would much prefer

00:32:23.360 to focus on new red meat

00:32:25.220 that is pretty easy to understand.

00:32:27.080 I almost think he wanted

00:32:29.140 to rub their noses in it, Charles.

00:32:32.900 He may have.

00:32:34.260 I think this is such a great example

00:32:36.300 of how the Democrats

00:32:38.720 have used Trump

00:32:39.800 as an excuse

00:32:40.600 for their own desires.

00:32:43.760 I won't defend Trump on this.

00:32:45.920 Trump will definitely

00:32:47.040 abuse the pardon power.

00:32:48.820 Most presidents

00:32:49.640 abuse the pardon power.

00:32:50.960 I actually think

00:32:51.420 the anti-federalists

00:32:52.280 were right about

00:32:53.060 the pardon power

00:32:53.960 on balance.

00:32:55.460 I think probably it needs

00:32:56.860 some sort of congressional review,

00:32:58.440 but it doesn't have it.

00:32:59.880 The president

00:33:00.540 has plenary power here.

00:33:01.920 It's non-justiciable.

00:33:03.060 No one can alter it,

00:33:05.260 oversee it,

00:33:06.620 reverse it.

00:33:08.220 So I fully expect Trump

00:33:10.200 to abuse it

00:33:10.920 as he did last time.

00:33:12.240 But I think

00:33:13.880 what you have seen here

00:33:14.980 is the knowledge,

00:33:18.020 perhaps,

00:33:18.380 from the Andrew Weissmans

00:33:19.220 of the world

00:33:19.840 that whatever happens,

00:33:22.180 he will be able

00:33:22.780 to wiggle out of it

00:33:23.780 by just saying,

00:33:24.820 but Trump.

00:33:25.840 The Joe Biden presidency

00:33:27.380 was the but Trump presidency.

00:33:29.260 People found it hard

00:33:30.240 to make affirmative case

00:33:31.480 for Joe Biden.

00:33:32.360 So they would just say,

00:33:33.220 but Trump.

00:33:34.480 So if Biden ends up winning,

00:33:38.760 or if Harris,

00:33:41.560 once she had taken over,

00:33:42.920 wins,

00:33:43.800 then maybe she pardons him

00:33:45.660 and you can say

00:33:46.940 you were right

00:33:47.480 that Biden didn't do it.

00:33:48.700 if Biden and then Harris

00:33:51.900 lose the election,

00:33:53.820 then you can say,

00:33:55.240 well,

00:33:55.960 we had to pardon him

00:33:58.240 because of Trump.

00:34:00.160 And this is the emerging line now,

00:34:02.060 is that we had to give

00:34:03.660 Hunter Biden

00:34:04.540 a 10-year,

00:34:06.840 untrammeled pardon

00:34:08.200 that applies

00:34:08.900 to absolutely everything.

00:34:10.800 Actually,

00:34:11.300 if you look at the way

00:34:12.040 it was written,

00:34:12.960 it gave Hunter Biden

00:34:14.520 sort of four hours

00:34:15.900 at the end of the day yesterday

00:34:17.760 where he could have gone out

00:34:18.680 and committed all manner of crimes

00:34:20.380 because the pardon lasted

00:34:21.820 until midnight.

00:34:23.240 But it's a 10-year,

00:34:24.380 untrammeled pardon.

00:34:25.880 And the line I've started to see

00:34:27.720 from those who are defending it

00:34:29.140 is,

00:34:29.460 well,

00:34:29.960 we didn't want to do that,

00:34:31.640 but we had to do this

00:34:32.800 because Trump is so vindictive.

00:34:34.820 He's so out of control.

00:34:35.880 He's such a dictator.

00:34:36.980 But he was going to come in

00:34:38.220 and then order his Department of Justice

00:34:40.000 to go after Hunter Biden

00:34:41.640 on a frivolous pretext.

00:34:43.180 So it was absolutely necessary

00:34:44.540 for Joe Biden

00:34:46.300 to inoculate his son

00:34:47.720 against the ravages

00:34:49.020 of Trump,

00:34:50.120 Hitler.

00:34:50.800 And when you do that,

00:34:52.160 Megan,

00:34:52.460 what you've done

00:34:53.080 is you've given yourself permission

00:34:54.560 to essentially do

00:34:56.040 whatever you want

00:34:56.800 on the grounds

00:34:57.500 that the other person

00:34:59.540 made you do it.

00:35:00.960 And we've seen this

00:35:01.860 with, say,

00:35:02.680 the Supreme Court

00:35:03.700 where the worst idea

00:35:06.180 in all of American history,

00:35:08.160 which is,

00:35:08.940 I mean,

00:35:09.340 structurally,

00:35:09.980 not slavery,

00:35:10.960 obviously it's number one,

00:35:11.860 but structurally,

00:35:13.200 it was to pack

00:35:14.720 the Supreme Court.

00:35:16.020 Back in the 1930s,

00:35:18.140 President Roosevelt's

00:35:19.160 own party

00:35:19.900 said,

00:35:20.400 don't do this.

00:35:20.900 This is a tyrannical move.

00:35:23.360 And it became,

00:35:24.180 over the years,

00:35:24.740 this sort of byword

00:35:25.760 for hubris

00:35:26.540 and corruption.

00:35:28.040 Joe Biden himself

00:35:29.200 talked about it

00:35:30.000 in a famous speech

00:35:30.840 in 2006

00:35:31.680 where he hearkened back

00:35:33.340 to the dark days

00:35:34.320 of FDR

00:35:34.820 trying to pack the court.

00:35:36.020 But now,

00:35:37.060 the Democrats

00:35:37.560 have to pack the court

00:35:39.040 because of Donald Trump.

00:35:40.760 They have to abolish

00:35:41.940 the filibuster

00:35:42.460 because of Donald Trump.

00:35:44.320 They have to undermine

00:35:45.220 the Electoral College

00:35:45.980 in the Senate

00:35:46.460 because of Donald Trump.

00:35:47.760 And once again,

00:35:48.820 this is the argument

00:35:49.780 that we're seeing.

00:35:50.760 That yes,

00:35:51.220 it is awful

00:35:51.820 to abuse the pardon power

00:35:53.200 in this way,

00:35:53.980 except Trump

00:35:54.780 made them do it.

00:35:55.940 And so I just wonder

00:35:56.880 if you're Andrew Weissman

00:35:58.540 sitting there at MSNBC

00:35:59.860 or you're Mika Brzezinski

00:36:01.460 or you're Stephanie Ruh

00:36:02.880 or anyone else

00:36:03.800 who made that case,

00:36:05.120 you sort of know

00:36:05.880 at the back of your head

00:36:06.860 that you have a

00:36:07.360 get out of jail free card

00:36:08.540 because if Biden

00:36:09.440 does do it,

00:36:10.260 you will be able to say

00:36:11.200 in the same studios

00:36:12.440 to the same people

00:36:13.540 in front of the same audience,

00:36:15.300 well, of course,

00:36:15.920 Biden didn't want to do it,

00:36:17.560 but he had to

00:36:18.200 because of Trump

00:36:18.940 and all of the people

00:36:19.720 who applauded you

00:36:20.420 the first time around

00:36:21.460 and said,

00:36:22.140 yeah, this is an indication

00:36:23.260 of the integrity

00:36:24.240 of Joe Biden.

00:36:25.020 We'll just sit there

00:36:25.840 and clap

00:36:26.360 as if that is some

00:36:27.880 sort of meaningful excuse.

00:36:29.720 It's so true.

00:36:30.900 Here, you don't actually

00:36:31.740 have to wonder.

00:36:32.340 Here's actually

00:36:32.800 a very fun example

00:36:33.900 that we found

00:36:34.480 of MSNBC commentator

00:36:36.700 Molly Jong-Fast.

00:36:38.380 Now, here is what

00:36:39.100 she originally said.

00:36:40.080 You're not going to do this to you.

00:36:41.120 You're not going to do this to us.

00:36:42.380 Are you, Megan?

00:36:43.080 Brace yourself.

00:36:43.980 Here she is in June

00:36:45.060 when he said

00:36:45.580 he was not going to pardon.

00:36:47.720 I think Joe Biden

00:36:48.700 has a chance here

00:36:49.780 to stand up

00:36:50.520 for the rule of law,

00:36:51.660 to say the law is the law

00:36:53.620 no matter who it is,

00:36:55.240 no matter if it's Trump

00:36:56.220 or Biden.

00:36:57.580 And remember,

00:36:58.220 part of Trumpism's

00:36:59.520 dangerousness

00:37:00.700 is that it tears down

00:37:02.280 institutions,

00:37:03.160 important institutions

00:37:04.160 of our democracy.

00:37:05.040 So there is an opportunity

00:37:06.720 here for Biden to say,

00:37:08.120 you know,

00:37:09.140 the jury found him guilty.

00:37:10.880 This is how it's supposed

00:37:12.220 to work.

00:37:13.780 Period.

00:37:14.400 Paragraph.

00:37:15.120 End of story.

00:37:16.700 Norms and institutions.

00:37:18.140 And here she was this morning.

00:37:21.960 Molly,

00:37:22.680 fast and furious,

00:37:23.840 what do you make

00:37:24.240 of this new news?

00:37:27.640 I just heard it.

00:37:30.980 I have to process it.

00:37:32.480 I don't have a take.

00:37:33.760 I'm sorry.

00:37:40.180 She just heard it.

00:37:42.140 She went on.

00:37:43.140 That was this morning,

00:37:43.860 was it?

00:37:44.460 So she went on a cable news show.

00:37:46.280 That was last night.

00:37:47.200 It was last night?

00:37:48.820 Yeah.

00:37:49.560 She just heard it.

00:37:50.300 So she couldn't.

00:37:51.140 But she had no idea

00:37:52.240 it was coming, Charles.

00:37:53.760 She was just not like,

00:37:55.080 who knew?

00:37:55.880 Who could have foreseen?

00:37:57.160 And then had a thought

00:37:58.080 that the pardon would come.

00:37:59.500 And here's this

00:38:00.900 on her Blue Sky account.

00:38:02.740 That's the left wing Twitter

00:38:04.080 that everybody's now running to

00:38:05.240 because they're afraid of Elon.

00:38:06.520 She tweeted this morning

00:38:07.600 and now we're thinking,

00:38:08.960 OK, we're on to something.

00:38:10.000 She tweeted,

00:38:10.620 protect norms and institutions,

00:38:12.280 protect norms and institutions.

00:38:13.580 I'm like, OK,

00:38:13.940 she's going to let them have it.

00:38:15.260 Protect norms and institutions,

00:38:17.480 protect norms and institutions.

00:38:18.900 And guess what?

00:38:19.720 She was tweeting about

00:38:20.620 this article from Washington Post.

00:38:22.980 amid worry about Trump

00:38:26.600 calls for career

00:38:28.260 Justice Department staff to stay.

00:38:30.440 She said she's saying

00:38:31.760 don't change the staff at the DOJ.

00:38:34.140 That's what she's tweeted.

00:38:35.080 Norms and institutions.

00:38:36.320 Nothing about the pardon

00:38:38.480 that I I have no take.

00:38:40.960 I don't.

00:38:41.920 This reflects poorly on Joe Biden,

00:38:43.660 so I really can't think

00:38:44.600 of anything to say.

00:38:46.320 Yeah.

00:38:46.600 Yeah, it's a mystery.

00:38:48.680 Here is I'll give you another

00:38:51.160 another pivot point, Rich,

00:38:53.000 if you don't want to talk about Molly,

00:38:54.560 because I know you love her

00:38:56.100 and you should get the Jen Rubin.

00:38:58.600 You should give a Jen Rubin

00:38:59.600 award every week.

00:39:00.660 And Molly is an early contender.

00:39:03.200 She is actually.

00:39:04.340 She could be the same exact MVP.

00:39:07.580 Here is another spin that's coming.

00:39:11.400 Charles is right.

00:39:12.180 The one is but Trump.

00:39:13.320 And here's the other

00:39:14.420 in SOT 8 from Biden's

00:39:16.300 former White House director

00:39:17.420 of message planning, Megan Hayes.

00:39:20.340 I do think with some of the nominations

00:39:21.780 that Trump has put up,

00:39:22.660 I think it probably caused

00:39:23.440 a little bit of worry for him.

00:39:24.400 But also, I think people

00:39:25.180 have to remember the president

00:39:26.500 has lost two children already

00:39:27.620 and he does not need to lose

00:39:28.740 another one to more political,

00:39:30.900 you know, which hunts

00:39:32.480 that the president's calling them.

00:39:34.120 He doesn't.

00:39:34.640 He worries about Hunter going to jail there.

00:39:36.460 And there's a lot of things

00:39:37.440 wrapped up in this.

00:39:38.060 But I think at the end of the day,

00:39:39.380 the president made a decision

00:39:40.260 as a father to keep his son

00:39:42.060 out of jail

00:39:42.920 and out of harm's way

00:39:43.660 moving forward.

00:39:44.420 He, again, does not want

00:39:45.520 to lose another son.

00:39:46.380 He has lost two children already

00:39:47.540 and he does not want this

00:39:48.440 to go on any further

00:39:49.520 once he leaves office.

00:39:52.540 Didn't want to lose another son.

00:39:55.280 Oh, that's a medic.

00:39:57.420 That's disgraceful.

00:39:58.840 To compare Hunter

00:40:00.620 going to jail for crimes

00:40:02.040 he committed to

00:40:02.920 the tragic deaths

00:40:04.620 of other children.

00:40:07.400 It's just crazy, right?

00:40:09.940 Why can't you just say

00:40:11.080 he's a father,

00:40:12.040 he doesn't want to see

00:40:12.940 his son go to jail.

00:40:14.200 End of story.

00:40:15.260 And he doesn't care.

00:40:16.240 He's not going to let

00:40:16.940 any considerations

00:40:17.700 about norms or institutions

00:40:19.120 or anything else

00:40:19.820 trump that personal commitment.

00:40:22.180 That's, that's right.

00:40:23.320 That's, that's something

00:40:24.440 that's true.

00:40:25.420 It's something

00:40:25.840 that kind of people

00:40:26.360 would understand.

00:40:27.000 It's not necessarily

00:40:27.640 very praiseworthy,

00:40:28.880 but it's very human.

00:40:30.500 But they, they build up

00:40:31.720 this whole edifice

00:40:32.540 where he was

00:40:33.620 something special

00:40:35.200 and had this commitment

00:40:36.200 to democratic norms

00:40:37.520 above everything else.

00:40:38.480 And it was demonstrated

00:40:40.080 by letting this case

00:40:41.480 go forward

00:40:42.020 when it was very easy

00:40:42.760 to let it go forward

00:40:43.740 when it was,

00:40:44.640 when it was happening,

00:40:45.440 when the convictions happened,

00:40:46.500 right?

00:40:46.620 He wasn't going to,

00:40:47.240 there's no way

00:40:47.680 he's going to pardon him

00:40:48.660 right then.

00:40:49.620 These things always happen

00:40:50.800 at the end.

00:40:52.260 And maybe if he'd won again

00:40:53.340 or Kamala would won again,

00:40:54.280 he wouldn't even have to do it

00:40:55.420 at the end of this term,

00:40:56.440 but he would have done it

00:40:57.200 pretty quickly

00:40:57.660 before he went to jail,

00:40:59.360 right?

00:40:59.540 That was always obvious.

00:41:01.120 And they,

00:41:01.920 they were willfully blind to it

00:41:03.660 to create this,

00:41:04.480 the story.

00:41:04.940 And Charlie's correct

00:41:05.960 about just the,

00:41:07.340 the Hitler construct

00:41:08.340 construct is such a permission

00:41:09.700 slip for them.

00:41:11.260 You know,

00:41:11.420 the,

00:41:11.560 the bulwark,

00:41:12.560 the,

00:41:12.860 the,

00:41:13.120 the never Trump publication

00:41:15.440 had a podcast

00:41:16.220 at the election.

00:41:16.920 And one of these guys

00:41:17.600 on the podcast

00:41:18.160 was basically saying

00:41:18.920 because Trump's Hitler,

00:41:20.660 the Democrats need

00:41:21.460 their own Hitler,

00:41:22.200 right?

00:41:22.700 We need a strong man

00:41:24.020 and we should have changed,

00:41:25.260 you know,

00:41:25.460 we should have jammed

00:41:26.240 through two new states,

00:41:28.600 DC and Puerto Rico

00:41:29.440 to get more senators.

00:41:30.500 We should have packed

00:41:31.080 the court already,

00:41:32.160 you know,

00:41:32.560 on and on.

00:41:33.400 So they,

00:41:34.280 they become

00:41:34.940 what they think

00:41:36.480 they're opposing

00:41:37.800 and they,

00:41:39.340 they can't see it

00:41:40.320 because they're so blinded

00:41:41.260 by hatred to Trump,

00:41:42.580 for Trump.

00:41:43.340 Well,

00:41:43.360 I don't think there's

00:41:44.060 any accident,

00:41:44.800 Charlie,

00:41:45.060 that this is the former

00:41:46.020 White House director

00:41:46.780 of messaging raising,

00:41:48.080 he doesn't want

00:41:48.580 to lose another son.

00:41:49.300 This is what Joe Biden's

00:41:50.320 favorite trick has been.

00:41:51.900 Yeah.

00:41:52.340 Well,

00:41:52.800 leave aside the

00:41:53.720 mawkishness of it

00:41:54.800 and I've written

00:41:55.320 a great deal

00:41:56.140 about that.

00:41:57.680 Joe Biden

00:41:58.540 uses

00:41:59.180 his

00:42:00.520 son,

00:42:01.540 Beau's death

00:42:02.080 as a weapon

00:42:02.760 in a way

00:42:03.360 that he should not.

00:42:04.840 He brings it up

00:42:06.000 in almost every circumstance,

00:42:08.260 many of which

00:42:08.800 are inappropriate.

00:42:09.860 We've heard

00:42:10.340 from the parents

00:42:11.240 of

00:42:12.480 deceased

00:42:14.520 military members

00:42:16.620 who have asked

00:42:17.740 him not to do it.

00:42:19.240 But leave aside

00:42:20.440 the mawkishness

00:42:21.680 of that statement

00:42:22.500 for a moment,

00:42:23.360 which is supposed

00:42:23.900 to tug on your

00:42:24.660 heartstrings

00:42:25.980 and make you ignore

00:42:27.000 the question at hand.

00:42:28.640 And suppose

00:42:29.260 that that is true.

00:42:30.340 That was true

00:42:31.780 in June.

00:42:33.460 So if

00:42:34.000 it is the case

00:42:35.360 that Biden

00:42:36.680 is so upset

00:42:38.040 at the prospect

00:42:39.220 of Hunter

00:42:39.820 going to jail,

00:42:41.180 having lost

00:42:41.700 two children,

00:42:42.260 which he did do

00:42:42.960 and that was horrendous,

00:42:44.740 that he simply

00:42:45.800 cannot

00:42:46.360 allow this

00:42:47.480 to happen,

00:42:48.300 then he should

00:42:48.940 not have spent

00:42:49.860 nearly six months

00:42:50.980 promising the

00:42:51.680 American public

00:42:52.480 that he was not

00:42:53.560 going to pardon

00:42:54.340 Hunter Biden.

00:42:55.840 The clips you played

00:42:56.900 were not ambiguous.

00:42:58.120 Sometimes you can

00:42:58.820 wiggle out

00:42:59.520 of language.

00:43:00.600 But the last clip

00:43:01.880 you played

00:43:02.280 at the beginning

00:43:02.780 of this episode,

00:43:04.320 he literally says,

00:43:05.620 I am not going

00:43:06.480 to pardon him.

00:43:08.240 Now that

00:43:08.940 is emphatic

00:43:11.460 and it's absolute.

00:43:13.460 So if it is

00:43:14.720 the case

00:43:15.240 that what

00:43:15.980 she is saying

00:43:17.140 is correct,

00:43:18.420 then that should

00:43:19.460 have been the line

00:43:20.340 from June.

00:43:22.080 It should have been

00:43:22.680 the line whenever

00:43:23.600 Karine Junpierre

00:43:24.720 was asked about it.

00:43:26.540 It should have been

00:43:27.060 the line whenever

00:43:27.640 Biden was asked about it.

00:43:29.040 It should have been

00:43:29.560 the line whenever

00:43:30.160 anyone was asked

00:43:31.340 about it by the

00:43:31.980 New York Times

00:43:32.420 or the Washington

00:43:32.940 Post writing stories

00:43:34.000 on it.

00:43:34.800 You can't,

00:43:35.880 after six months

00:43:37.060 of absolutely

00:43:39.360 unqualified

00:43:40.540 promises,

00:43:41.960 then turn around

00:43:42.960 and say,

00:43:43.440 well,

00:43:43.540 I've just remembered

00:43:44.120 that I'm his dad.

00:43:45.240 That's just not

00:43:45.880 how this works.

00:43:47.480 So,

00:43:48.200 oh,

00:43:48.520 and I should add,

00:43:49.620 having done so

00:43:50.540 in an election year,

00:43:51.460 because the margins,

00:43:53.200 that line,

00:43:54.560 that Joe Biden

00:43:55.400 epitomized

00:43:56.180 everything that was

00:43:57.040 important about

00:43:57.760 the rule of law

00:43:58.600 was an election year

00:44:00.100 ploy.

00:44:00.820 That was used

00:44:01.500 as a contrast point

00:44:03.020 with Donald Trump.

00:44:05.360 You can't then

00:44:06.320 turn around

00:44:06.800 after the election

00:44:07.500 and say,

00:44:07.900 well,

00:44:07.960 I'm his dad.

00:44:08.620 Of course,

00:44:09.800 of course a dad

00:44:10.760 feels like that.

00:44:11.460 I would feel like

00:44:12.240 that too,

00:44:12.920 but that wouldn't

00:44:13.840 change the fact

00:44:14.800 that I was on the

00:44:15.620 record over and over

00:44:16.480 and over again,

00:44:17.400 not only saying

00:44:18.220 what it was

00:44:18.760 that I wasn't

00:44:19.260 going to do,

00:44:20.220 but setting myself

00:44:21.560 up as a result

00:44:22.880 of it

00:44:23.260 as an unimpeachable

00:44:24.340 figure.

00:44:26.060 It's another

00:44:27.160 example of fraud.

00:44:30.440 That's what

00:44:31.140 we were witnessing

00:44:32.260 there.

00:44:32.600 We were almost

00:44:33.500 defrauded

00:44:34.360 about him

00:44:36.140 and his mental

00:44:37.540 health

00:44:37.880 by the same

00:44:39.360 media

00:44:39.860 now trying

00:44:41.360 to celebrate this,

00:44:42.380 trying to find a way.

00:44:43.400 Joe and Mika

00:44:43.980 spent the first

00:44:45.060 40 minutes

00:44:45.680 of their show

00:44:46.140 talking about

00:44:46.780 Kash Patel

00:44:47.460 and PTAG Seth.

00:44:49.700 And when they

00:44:50.360 finally got to

00:44:51.080 the pardon,

00:44:51.700 those two

00:44:52.000 didn't even

00:44:52.320 offer their

00:44:52.700 opinion.

00:44:53.540 They said

00:44:53.820 nothing.

00:44:54.320 Mika,

00:44:54.640 who was out

00:44:55.000 there saying

00:44:55.360 he's the

00:44:55.800 rule of law,

00:44:56.620 he's the one

00:44:57.140 who believes

00:44:57.660 in the rule

00:44:58.280 of law.

00:44:59.120 And it's

00:44:59.580 a stark

00:44:59.900 contrast.

00:45:00.680 So much

00:45:01.120 respect for

00:45:01.620 the rule

00:45:01.920 of law

00:45:02.300 that he

00:45:02.580 won't pardon

00:45:02.980 his son.

00:45:03.440 Today she

00:45:03.860 had nothing

00:45:04.360 to say

00:45:05.360 about it.

00:45:05.740 Okay,

00:45:05.900 so they

00:45:06.160 almost defrauded

00:45:07.860 us into

00:45:08.320 electing a

00:45:09.460 mentally

00:45:09.800 enfeebled

00:45:10.480 man.

00:45:11.440 Then they

00:45:12.500 tried to

00:45:12.800 defraud us

00:45:13.320 rich into

00:45:13.740 believing Kamala

00:45:14.300 Harris was a

00:45:15.140 smart person

00:45:16.020 who could

00:45:16.700 handle the

00:45:17.460 obligations of

00:45:18.120 the presidency.

00:45:19.300 She was

00:45:19.740 inspirational.

00:45:21.560 She was

00:45:22.460 brat.

00:45:24.100 She was

00:45:24.540 all the

00:45:24.820 things.

00:45:26.060 And then

00:45:26.380 we get

00:45:28.280 this,

00:45:29.240 that he's

00:45:30.120 not going

00:45:30.860 to pardon

00:45:31.740 his son.

00:45:32.640 And the

00:45:33.080 fact that he

00:45:33.560 said it

00:45:33.980 in June

00:45:34.680 when Hunter

00:45:35.100 was convicted

00:45:35.720 and then all

00:45:37.140 the media

00:45:37.520 allies ran

00:45:38.020 out there

00:45:38.300 saying,

00:45:38.700 see,

00:45:39.160 see,

00:45:39.520 he respects

00:45:39.980 institutions,

00:45:40.680 norms,

00:45:40.980 and the

00:45:41.180 rule of

00:45:41.420 law.

00:45:41.960 Unlike

00:45:42.440 that other

00:45:42.860 guy,

00:45:43.320 unlike

00:45:43.560 evil

00:45:43.860 Hitler.

00:45:44.360 You see,

00:45:45.040 that's why

00:45:45.640 we have to

00:45:46.840 stick with

00:45:47.160 the Democrats

00:45:47.700 in this

00:45:48.440 presidential

00:45:48.800 election,

00:45:49.360 only to

00:45:50.160 immediately

00:45:51.000 turn around

00:45:52.160 and say,

00:45:53.680 F all

00:45:54.000 that.

00:45:54.540 Nothing's

00:45:54.960 changed.

00:45:55.820 I just

00:45:56.180 am not

00:45:56.620 going to

00:45:56.820 do it.

00:45:57.380 It's all

00:45:58.060 part of

00:45:58.560 a big

00:45:59.000 fraud,

00:45:59.820 which is

00:46:00.480 why you've

00:46:00.880 got some

00:46:01.500 Democrats

00:46:02.200 sounding like

00:46:03.160 Joe Walsh

00:46:03.860 today.

00:46:04.820 We have his

00:46:05.640 soundbite here,

00:46:06.220 I think,

00:46:06.460 somewhere.

00:46:07.280 Let's see.

00:46:08.140 My team

00:46:08.480 will find

00:46:08.820 it and

00:46:09.600 play it.

00:46:10.600 Yeah.

00:46:11.060 Former

00:46:11.420 Illinois

00:46:11.760 Representative

00:46:12.320 Joe Walsh.

00:46:12.980 This

00:46:15.220 pardon is

00:46:16.020 just

00:46:16.400 deflating.

00:46:18.060 For those

00:46:18.480 of us who

00:46:19.040 have been

00:46:19.380 out there

00:46:19.800 for a few

00:46:20.440 years now

00:46:21.120 yelling about

00:46:22.600 what a

00:46:23.060 unique threat

00:46:24.340 Donald Trump

00:46:25.120 is,

00:46:26.340 for Joe

00:46:27.200 Biden to

00:46:27.700 do something

00:46:28.260 like this,

00:46:30.140 Trump,

00:46:30.700 nobody's above

00:46:31.360 the law,

00:46:31.880 we've been

00:46:32.240 screaming.

00:46:32.820 Well,

00:46:33.040 Joe Biden

00:46:33.540 just made

00:46:34.080 clear his

00:46:35.080 son Hunter

00:46:35.700 is above

00:46:36.180 the law.

00:46:37.560 Donald Trump

00:46:38.140 lies every

00:46:38.900 time he opens

00:46:39.660 his mouth,

00:46:40.400 we've been

00:46:40.820 screaming.

00:46:41.260 Joe Biden

00:46:42.860 repeatedly

00:46:43.580 lied about

00:46:44.880 this.

00:46:45.440 This is a

00:46:46.000 father who

00:46:47.220 saw his

00:46:48.000 first wife

00:46:48.640 killed,

00:46:49.240 his daughter

00:46:50.040 killed in

00:46:50.580 a car

00:46:50.860 rash,

00:46:51.120 his two

00:46:51.500 young sons

00:46:52.160 survived.

00:46:53.180 One goes

00:46:53.640 on to have

00:46:54.120 real difficulties

00:46:54.880 with addiction,

00:46:55.560 another dies

00:46:56.820 because of

00:46:57.360 cancer.

00:46:58.160 This is a

00:46:58.600 family that's

00:46:59.080 really in

00:46:59.360 trouble.

00:46:59.640 I mean,

00:47:00.180 yes,

00:47:00.600 he said he

00:47:01.060 wasn't going

00:47:01.400 to do this,

00:47:01.820 but did

00:47:02.040 anyone ever

00:47:02.720 believe that

00:47:03.500 that was

00:47:03.940 the case?

00:47:04.720 But this

00:47:05.420 just furthers

00:47:06.600 the cynicism

00:47:07.660 that people

00:47:08.680 have about

00:47:09.300 politics,

00:47:10.160 and that

00:47:11.240 cynicism

00:47:12.220 strengthens

00:47:13.480 Trump because

00:47:14.700 Trump can

00:47:15.280 just say,

00:47:15.880 I'm not a

00:47:16.260 unique threat.

00:47:17.300 Everybody

00:47:17.740 does this.

00:47:20.220 The anchor

00:47:21.200 was Melissa

00:47:22.200 Murray last

00:47:24.140 night.

00:47:24.960 Yeah.

00:47:25.340 So,

00:47:26.400 I mean,

00:47:26.980 he seems

00:47:27.520 genuinely

00:47:28.060 aghast at

00:47:29.500 this result.

00:47:31.180 Well,

00:47:31.300 yeah,

00:47:31.540 there's another

00:47:31.820 category here of

00:47:32.620 people who

00:47:33.100 apparently believe

00:47:34.280 this lie,

00:47:35.240 like our

00:47:36.560 friend there

00:47:37.340 and Tom

00:47:37.940 Nichols,

00:47:38.420 Johnson,

00:47:38.680 shaped some

00:47:39.480 others who

00:47:39.980 are consistent

00:47:40.680 who thought

00:47:41.160 it was

00:47:41.680 Biden being

00:47:42.960 upstanding about

00:47:43.680 the rule of

00:47:44.080 law and now

00:47:44.640 are appropriately

00:47:45.580 outraged about

00:47:47.020 it.

00:47:47.200 So,

00:47:47.400 they're being

00:47:47.840 consistent.

00:47:48.340 I think they're

00:47:48.700 incredibly naive

00:47:49.440 at the outset

00:47:50.480 to believe this

00:47:51.600 lie,

00:47:51.840 but they did.

00:47:52.720 I would just

00:47:53.120 throw into your

00:47:53.740 catalog.

00:47:54.060 The irony,

00:47:55.000 Rich,

00:47:55.160 sorry,

00:47:55.460 the irony of

00:47:55.940 him saying it

00:47:56.500 on MSNBC,

00:47:57.680 which has been

00:47:58.020 peddling.

00:47:58.280 Oh,

00:47:58.660 yeah,

00:47:58.740 exactly.

00:48:00.280 Like I said,

00:48:00.780 get your news

00:48:01.200 source someplace

00:48:02.060 else,

00:48:02.400 sir.

00:48:02.800 Go ahead.

00:48:03.200 I would just

00:48:03.840 throw into the

00:48:04.440 scams the whole

00:48:05.060 Hunter Biden

00:48:05.600 laptop,

00:48:06.620 which we're

00:48:07.040 made to believe

00:48:07.700 was an act

00:48:09.360 of Russian

00:48:09.780 disinformation,

00:48:11.120 where he had

00:48:11.420 these former

00:48:11.940 national security

00:48:12.620 officials lying,

00:48:14.160 right,

00:48:14.560 in this letter.

00:48:15.740 Another case

00:48:16.260 where Biden

00:48:17.060 unashamedly had

00:48:18.040 people lie on

00:48:18.740 his behalf.

00:48:19.360 They put that

00:48:19.780 letter out there

00:48:20.380 pretty much only

00:48:21.420 so he'd have

00:48:21.920 something to say

00:48:22.680 in the debate

00:48:23.580 in 2020 when

00:48:24.440 this came up

00:48:24.900 with Trump,

00:48:25.340 and he just

00:48:25.880 cited the letter,

00:48:26.600 right?

00:48:27.280 It's been

00:48:28.060 established,

00:48:28.580 this Russian

00:48:28.920 disinformation,

00:48:30.080 as these

00:48:30.660 several dozen

00:48:31.960 national security

00:48:32.760 officials say so.

00:48:34.040 This just all

00:48:34.820 plays into a

00:48:36.020 really corrosive

00:48:36.740 sense that

00:48:37.240 things aren't

00:48:37.800 on the up

00:48:38.360 and up,

00:48:38.860 and they're

00:48:39.100 puppet masters

00:48:39.760 behind all

00:48:40.880 these facades

00:48:43.400 we're seeing

00:48:44.100 in public,

00:48:44.920 whether it's

00:48:45.220 the supposedly

00:48:46.060 young and

00:48:47.000 vigorous Joe

00:48:47.840 Biden or the

00:48:48.600 joyful and

00:48:49.920 totally impressive

00:48:51.200 Kamala Harris,

00:48:52.640 and it's why a

00:48:53.660 lot of Republicans

00:48:54.180 have time for

00:48:54.960 appointments like

00:48:55.680 Kash Patel,

00:48:56.860 who are out

00:48:58.420 there to kind

00:48:58.820 of burn the

00:48:59.420 place down.

00:49:00.120 I think the

00:49:00.480 place needs

00:49:00.920 major reform.

00:49:02.380 I'm not sure

00:49:02.680 how well

00:49:03.100 burning it.

00:49:04.480 Yeah,

00:49:04.800 I'm not sure

00:49:05.700 how well

00:49:06.180 trying to

00:49:07.140 burn it down

00:49:07.460 is going to

00:49:07.720 work out,

00:49:08.340 but people

00:49:08.920 have a lot

00:49:09.300 of time

00:49:09.620 for that,

00:49:10.040 right?

00:49:10.400 And this

00:49:11.200 does play,

00:49:12.140 as Joe

00:49:12.400 Walsh was

00:49:12.760 saying,

00:49:13.440 does play

00:49:13.920 into Trump's

00:49:15.040 hands in

00:49:15.500 that respect.

00:49:16.940 And the

00:49:17.380 worst of it

00:49:17.980 was the

00:49:18.420 lawfare against

00:49:19.160 Trump,

00:49:19.500 I would say.

00:49:21.100 We got to

00:49:21.800 do Kash Patel

00:49:23.500 and we'll

00:49:23.940 talk about

00:49:24.320 Pete and

00:49:25.240 we've got to

00:49:25.720 talk about

00:49:26.120 Kamala Harris's

00:49:26.840 Thanksgiving

00:49:27.160 message,

00:49:27.800 but we have

00:49:28.160 to take a

00:49:28.520 break first.

00:49:29.140 Before we

00:49:29.440 go to

00:49:29.620 break,

00:49:29.880 I'll just

00:49:30.220 do this

00:49:30.840 one for

00:49:31.200 you.

00:49:31.480 Karine

00:49:31.800 Jean-Pierre

00:49:32.400 who

00:49:33.280 repeatedly

00:49:34.360 said he

00:49:35.180 would not

00:49:35.520 pardon

00:49:35.820 Hunter.

00:49:36.240 I mean

00:49:36.560 repeatedly.

00:49:38.020 I'm not

00:49:38.600 going to

00:49:38.760 play you

00:49:39.000 the sound

00:49:39.220 bike as

00:49:39.500 as long,

00:49:39.940 but just

00:49:40.240 trust me,

00:49:40.700 it's more

00:49:41.100 explicit even

00:49:41.760 than Joe

00:49:42.120 Biden was

00:49:43.080 asked on

00:49:44.040 Air Force

00:49:44.480 One about

00:49:45.420 the pardon.

00:49:46.500 She said,

00:49:47.060 the president

00:49:47.460 took an

00:49:47.900 action because

00:49:48.560 of how

00:49:48.960 politically

00:49:49.560 infected

00:49:50.320 these cases

00:49:51.240 were.

00:49:52.620 A reporter

00:49:53.420 pressed the

00:49:53.860 system doesn't

00:49:54.400 get corrupted

00:49:54.860 by politics for

00:49:55.760 people whose

00:49:56.240 name is not

00:49:56.800 Joe Biden.

00:49:57.720 You're

00:49:58.080 twisting and

00:49:58.560 misrepresenting

00:49:59.120 what I'm

00:49:59.360 saying.

00:50:00.200 I'm talking

00:50:00.540 about a

00:50:00.840 particular issue

00:50:01.440 right now.

00:50:02.060 That's

00:50:02.320 saying nothing.

00:50:03.600 At one point

00:50:04.000 another journalist

00:50:04.560 asked,

00:50:05.020 does the

00:50:05.160 president believe

00:50:05.680 now and

00:50:06.520 agree with

00:50:07.240 Trump that

00:50:08.080 the justice

00:50:08.420 system has

00:50:08.900 been weaponized

00:50:09.460 for political

00:50:09.920 purposes and

00:50:10.520 that it needs

00:50:11.000 root and branch

00:50:11.860 reform?

00:50:12.860 Karine Jean-Pierre,

00:50:13.420 no.

00:50:14.320 Read the

00:50:14.600 president's

00:50:14.980 statement.

00:50:15.280 Seriously,

00:50:15.680 read the

00:50:15.920 president's

00:50:16.300 statement.

00:50:16.880 He said he

00:50:17.540 believes in

00:50:18.120 the DOJ.

00:50:18.840 He does.

00:50:19.780 He says it

00:50:20.400 in his

00:50:20.700 statement.

00:50:21.200 He says it

00:50:21.760 in his

00:50:21.960 statement,

00:50:22.260 so must

00:50:22.500 be true.

00:50:23.500 He also

00:50:24.020 believes that

00:50:24.660 war politics

00:50:25.840 infected the

00:50:26.620 process and

00:50:27.380 it led to

00:50:27.760 a miscarriage

00:50:28.220 of justice.

00:50:29.040 We don't

00:50:29.260 know what

00:50:29.520 war politics

00:50:30.060 are, but

00:50:30.800 we know

00:50:31.280 she is

00:50:31.980 lying.

00:50:32.740 Yet again,

00:50:33.520 we'll be

00:50:33.900 right back.

00:50:34.460 Is the

00:50:34.700 education

00:50:35.200 system the

00:50:36.200 cause and

00:50:37.380 solution to

00:50:38.220 the biggest

00:50:38.520 problems facing

00:50:39.180 America?

00:50:39.960 Check out a

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00:51:36.440 Someone is trying

00:51:38.100 to frame us.

00:51:39.540 Until our names

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00:51:41.960 We're fugitives

00:51:42.720 from interval.

00:51:43.740 Like Bonnie and

00:51:44.520 Clyde with better

00:51:45.360 snacks.

00:51:47.200 Espionage?

00:51:47.820 You still as good

00:51:48.520 a shot as you

00:51:49.140 used to be?

00:51:50.920 Better.

00:51:51.660 Is there love

00:51:52.460 language?

00:51:53.120 We like to walk

00:51:53.720 that fine line

00:51:54.460 between techno-thriller

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00:52:02.220 streaming on

00:52:02.820 Paramount+.

00:52:03.700 Okay, so we've

00:52:08.340 been following the

00:52:08.940 whole Pete Hegseth

00:52:09.960 nomination to

00:52:11.060 defense secretary

00:52:12.300 very closely here

00:52:13.120 on the show,

00:52:13.700 and there was

00:52:14.580 news on that

00:52:15.260 over the break

00:52:15.920 and then today

00:52:17.040 as well.

00:52:18.520 Pete's mom

00:52:19.720 was very,

00:52:20.720 very mad at him

00:52:21.580 in 2018,

00:52:22.540 and the New York

00:52:23.820 Times got its

00:52:24.660 hands on the

00:52:25.640 email.

00:52:25.960 I gotta tell

00:52:28.780 you, like,

00:52:29.480 this whole thing

00:52:30.040 is ridiculous to

00:52:30.960 me.

00:52:31.140 Now, the mom

00:52:31.640 does not spare

00:52:32.380 Pete at all

00:52:33.360 in this email.

00:52:34.700 She gives it to

00:52:35.780 him, like,

00:52:36.720 nice and straight,

00:52:37.820 and she doesn't

00:52:39.560 mince words.

00:52:41.040 But there are a

00:52:42.620 lot of people who

00:52:43.320 wouldn't want their

00:52:44.180 moms chastising

00:52:45.780 winding up in the

00:52:47.100 New York Times,

00:52:47.680 especially men who

00:52:49.280 find themselves in

00:52:50.040 the midst of a

00:52:50.540 divorce caused by

00:52:52.020 their own infidelity.

00:52:53.940 I think most moms

00:52:54.960 would have a word

00:52:56.220 with their sons

00:52:57.480 about that when

00:53:00.040 they've cheated on

00:53:00.620 the wife.

00:53:01.040 They have children,

00:53:02.060 so in effect,

00:53:02.900 you've cheated on

00:53:03.380 the children, too.

00:53:04.760 And they're involved

00:53:05.700 in a custody battle

00:53:06.560 in which Pete was

00:53:07.980 attacking the soon-to-be

00:53:09.560 ex-wife, verbally,

00:53:10.760 that is, and his

00:53:12.140 mom didn't like it.

00:53:13.300 Okay, so that's the

00:53:14.020 one, and I'll just

00:53:14.760 give you a flavor for

00:53:16.060 what's in the report.

00:53:16.700 It's very nasty.

00:53:19.700 And she is, it's

00:53:21.000 very nasty of the

00:53:21.600 New York Times, in my

00:53:22.180 view, to report

00:53:23.200 this.

00:53:23.440 I just think

00:53:23.940 publishing a mom's

00:53:25.040 email, I don't know

00:53:26.000 how they got it.

00:53:26.520 They say it was a

00:53:27.160 source close to the

00:53:28.480 Hexeth family.

00:53:29.460 I guarantee you it

00:53:30.440 was the ex-wife or

00:53:31.500 somebody close to her.

00:53:32.300 I mean, there's just

00:53:32.860 no way it's not.

00:53:33.820 But anyway, she

00:53:35.120 writes as follows in

00:53:35.920 2018.

00:53:37.280 I've tried to keep

00:53:37.980 quiet about your

00:53:38.460 character and behavior,

00:53:39.300 but after listening to

00:53:40.060 the way you made

00:53:40.620 Samantha feel today,

00:53:41.600 I cannot stay silent.

00:53:43.020 I feel I must speak

00:53:43.860 out.

00:53:44.340 You are an abuser of

00:53:45.300 women.

00:53:45.920 That's the ugly truth.

00:53:47.120 And I have no respect

00:53:47.800 for any man that

00:53:48.680 belittles, lies,

00:53:49.700 cheats, sleeps around,

00:53:50.700 and uses women for his

00:53:51.680 own power and ego.

00:53:52.860 You are that man and

00:53:54.260 have been for years.

00:53:55.500 And as your mother, it

00:53:56.420 pains me and embarrasses

00:53:57.480 me to say that, but it

00:53:59.000 is the sad truth.

00:54:00.440 I'm not a saint, far from

00:54:01.840 it, so don't throw that

00:54:02.600 in my face, but your

00:54:03.460 abuse over the years to

00:54:04.640 women, dishonesty,

00:54:06.260 sleeping around,

00:54:07.280 betrayal, debasing,

00:54:08.520 belittling, needs to be

00:54:09.860 called out.

00:54:10.900 Sam is a good mother and

00:54:11.740 a good person under the

00:54:13.060 circumstances that you

00:54:13.960 created.

00:54:14.860 And I know deep down you

00:54:15.720 know that, but for you to

00:54:16.580 try and label her as

00:54:17.460 unstable for your own

00:54:18.460 advantage is despicable and

00:54:19.920 abusive.

00:54:20.260 Is there any sense of

00:54:22.620 decency left in you?

00:54:24.540 We still love you, but

00:54:25.360 we're broken by your

00:54:26.020 behavior and lack of

00:54:26.740 character.

00:54:27.600 Those are the highlights

00:54:28.460 or lowlights.

00:54:29.580 She's obviously mad because

00:54:30.600 he was calling the ex-wife

00:54:31.740 names in the context of

00:54:33.500 their custody dispute, and

00:54:35.780 the mother didn't like

00:54:36.600 that, and let him have

00:54:38.300 it.

00:54:38.920 She told the New York

00:54:39.620 Times that she thought it

00:54:41.160 was despicable they were

00:54:41.960 printing this, and that she

00:54:42.760 sent him an email

00:54:43.340 immediately after, taking

00:54:45.120 it back and saying she was

00:54:46.120 wrong and she was sorry

00:54:47.080 that she was just angry.

00:54:49.540 But this is the way it

00:54:51.300 goes.

00:54:51.760 You know, you get

00:54:52.620 personally destroyed if

00:54:53.680 you throw your hat in the

00:54:54.320 ring, you know, especially

00:54:55.660 to be as part of Trump's

00:54:57.020 cabinet.

00:54:57.560 For what it's worth, the

00:54:58.340 reporter Sharon Lafreniere,

00:55:00.720 who wrote the New York

00:55:01.360 Times piece on Hexat that I

00:55:02.520 just referenced, she also

00:55:05.860 wrote the story about the

00:55:08.360 alleged 2017 rape that she

00:55:12.400 says he was accused of.

00:55:13.640 In her reporting, she

00:55:15.200 missed, among other

00:55:16.400 details, the following, the

00:55:17.760 fact that his accuser was

00:55:20.460 seen smiling with him on

00:55:22.700 videotaped a half hour before

00:55:25.120 he allegedly raped her after

00:55:27.320 having given her some drug

00:55:29.140 that, you know, some date

00:55:31.700 rape drug, did not report

00:55:33.540 that she was back at her own

00:55:34.760 hotel room by 4 a.m., where

00:55:36.560 her husband says she was not

00:55:37.800 slurring or stumbling and was

00:55:39.240 apologetic.

00:55:39.940 She didn't think that was

00:55:40.640 relevant, even though the

00:55:41.440 woman claimed she'd been

00:55:42.680 drugged and was seen on

00:55:44.220 camera fine, not drunk, not

00:55:46.360 stumbling at 1.30 a.m.,

00:55:47.840 smiling and locking arms

00:55:48.760 with him, and then at 4 a.m.

00:55:49.620 was back with her husband

00:55:50.600 and the husband said she

00:55:51.640 looked fine.

00:55:52.160 That wasn't relevant to the

00:55:53.400 New York Times, that her

00:55:54.500 own husband said at 4 a.m.

00:55:56.440 she was totally fine, did not

00:55:59.000 report that this woman refused

00:56:00.920 the police request that she

00:56:02.580 participate in what's called a

00:56:03.640 pretext call to Hexat after

00:56:05.540 the fact, saying, you know,

00:56:06.920 hey, Pete, why'd you do that

00:56:08.020 to me?

00:56:09.040 Trying to get him on camera,

00:56:10.040 confessing to a crime.

00:56:10.740 She declined to participate

00:56:12.380 in that thing and did not

00:56:15.600 report that while Pete was

00:56:17.980 telling the cops that she said

00:56:20.480 to him before she left the

00:56:21.480 room, I'm going to tell my

00:56:22.580 husband I fell asleep.

00:56:23.800 They reported that piece of

00:56:25.280 it, but did not then report

00:56:27.460 that her husband simultaneously

00:56:28.980 told cops that when his wife

00:56:31.480 got home, she told him she had

00:56:33.480 fallen asleep.

00:56:35.160 A story that matches up

00:56:36.400 perfectly with the one Pete gave

00:56:38.020 the police.

00:56:38.440 That's the same reporter now

00:56:39.920 reporting on the mom's email.

00:56:41.160 I'm just saying the media has

00:56:42.820 no interest in being fair or

00:56:44.200 balanced in reporting these

00:56:45.640 facts and therefore skepticism

00:56:46.940 is warranted.

00:56:48.520 And now they have a report,

00:56:51.520 separate publication in the

00:56:52.740 New Yorker, separate reporter

00:56:53.880 Jane Mayer today on his secret

00:56:56.460 history.

00:56:58.100 OK, I'm open minded.

00:56:59.300 What is it?

00:56:59.880 What did he do?

00:57:00.940 Well, when he ran two different

00:57:02.440 veterans organizations, Veterans

00:57:04.000 for Freedom and Concerned

00:57:05.200 Veterans for America, he was

00:57:07.180 forced to step down, she reports

00:57:08.820 because of allegedly being

00:57:13.500 repeatedly intoxicated while

00:57:14.880 acting in his official capacity

00:57:16.300 to the point of needing to be

00:57:18.660 carried out of the

00:57:20.840 organization's events.

00:57:23.100 Well, the one that I can find,

00:57:25.240 she says plural, is he went to

00:57:29.520 a bar, a strip club in February of

00:57:33.260 2015 with, I guess, Concerned

00:57:37.300 Veterans for America employees.

00:57:39.100 And according to this whistleblower

00:57:41.100 or according to a memo filled out by

00:57:44.100 some employees and sent to the

00:57:47.660 organization's senior management,

00:57:49.120 he had to be restrained while drunk

00:57:51.380 from joining the dancers on the stage

00:57:52.740 of a Louisiana strip club where he had

00:57:54.800 brought his team.

00:57:55.660 So that's OK.

00:57:58.300 I like it.

00:57:59.800 I can't.

00:58:01.280 All right.

00:58:01.880 So that's one.

00:58:03.160 Then there was another one where he

00:58:05.280 went to an event in October of 14.

00:58:08.560 And let's see.

00:58:11.780 He had been out with three young

00:58:12.860 female staffers, was so inebriated by

00:58:14.580 1 a.m. that a staffer who had driven

00:58:15.860 him to his hotel in a van full of other

00:58:18.080 drunken staffers asked for assistance to

00:58:19.920 get him to his room.

00:58:21.340 He was passed out and they did.

00:58:23.420 Two male staffers got him into his

00:58:25.740 hotel.

00:58:26.560 So I think that's what they're talking

00:58:27.900 about.

00:58:28.240 Then they allege some financial

00:58:29.920 impropriety like spending that left

00:58:31.860 the organization with less than a

00:58:33.320 thousand dollars in the bank.

00:58:34.640 Here is what I can tell you based on

00:58:38.000 my discussions with someone close to

00:58:41.000 the case.

00:58:41.880 And that is that.

00:58:44.040 He was not at a strip club,

00:58:46.700 so I expect that when Pete gets to

00:58:49.080 respond to this, he's going to deny

00:58:50.600 that he was at a strip club.

00:58:52.320 And I would assume then deny that he

00:58:54.080 tried to storm the stage while the

00:58:56.000 strippers were dancing, that this

00:58:58.600 alleged whistleblower on whom most of

00:59:00.140 these allegations depend is a bitter.

00:59:02.680 In fact, I'm told like there are

00:59:05.360 multiple and they have all been fired.

00:59:07.160 They were fired by his organization.

00:59:08.780 But the main is a very bitter person

00:59:10.820 who's jealous of Pete and who was

00:59:12.140 fired and that he did not yell as they

00:59:15.660 allege in this kill all Muslims while

00:59:17.440 drunk at a bar openly where everyone

00:59:19.780 could hear it. He said that that never

00:59:21.620 happened, did not happen, that Donald

00:59:24.760 Trump is still standing by him and that

00:59:27.220 while Pete admits to having gone

00:59:31.320 drinking a lot, he did a lot of drinking

00:59:33.460 when he came back from his three tours of

00:59:36.500 duty, Gitmo, Afghanistan and Iraq, he's

00:59:40.660 gotten it under control.

00:59:42.200 And while he's not proud of some of his

00:59:43.740 drunken behavior, there is nothing in here

00:59:46.000 that reflects on the character, who he is

00:59:48.480 today. So that's where we stand on Pete

00:59:51.000 Hegseth today.

00:59:52.900 Rich, your thoughts on whether we should

00:59:56.180 be putting stock into these reports and

00:59:57.660 whether it's going to tank his nomination.

01:00:00.200 So what we know clearly by his admission

01:00:03.700 and by the general sense of these reports,

01:00:07.060 even if you don't credit every single

01:00:08.360 detail, is that he drank a lot and was

01:00:11.100 tomcatting around, clearly.

01:00:13.100 Right. And I don't think that should be

01:00:14.780 disqualifying for a secretary of defense.

01:00:18.180 The problem he has is it'd be one thing,

01:00:21.140 you know, if we learn that Dwight Eisenhower,

01:00:24.220 you know, as a young man had tried to storm

01:00:25.760 the stage at a strip club, if we're assuming

01:00:28.060 this is true about Pete, and you're saying

01:00:29.620 that there's good reason not to, you know,

01:00:33.300 he's responsible for D-Day, right?

01:00:35.160 He is a world historical figure.

01:00:38.020 And the problem Pete is going to have is

01:00:41.360 the combination of these reports and the fact

01:00:45.500 that he's kind of a, he's a risk, not a security

01:00:49.500 risk, but he's a leap, you know, to assume that

01:00:52.320 he's going to be capable of running this

01:00:54.840 complex organization.

01:00:57.220 So that's why I think he's in some jeopardy.

01:00:59.760 If he goes down, it's going to be a Matt Gaetz

01:01:01.760 thing. I don't think there's going to be a

01:01:02.840 floor vote against him.

01:01:03.720 I think he'll, he'll, you know, there'll be a

01:01:05.880 subtle call made to him by the, by President

01:01:09.100 Elect Trump or someone around him saying, you

01:01:10.600 know, it's gotten to be a little, a little too

01:01:13.260 much, but look, the whole thing is, it's

01:01:15.420 sorted. You wish, you know, you don't want to

01:01:17.940 know this about the guy.

01:01:19.620 You don't want to know this about a potential

01:01:21.000 secretary of defense, but because of the

01:01:23.140 messiness of, of the way he's lived his

01:01:26.220 personal life and the divorces, it's, it's

01:01:28.600 all coming out of a version, maybe an unfair

01:01:30.640 and stilted version of it's coming out.

01:01:32.260 And that's, it's just for him, for his

01:01:35.020 nomination is problematic.

01:01:37.160 Yeah. It's embarrassing to pee for sure, but

01:01:39.020 it's, it's just frustrating how you don't get

01:01:40.900 the other side of like, before we went and

01:01:43.880 repeated the allegations against Doug

01:01:45.740 Emhoff, trust me, my team and I did a lot of

01:01:48.540 behind the scenes research on who this person

01:01:50.940 is. Is this a credible person? Is there a

01:01:53.040 history of accusations? Is there any red flag

01:01:56.060 on her that we need to alert the audience to, or

01:01:58.080 that so great that we don't even think this

01:02:00.140 story is reportable. And we found all

01:02:02.240 all the opposite. And then we told the

01:02:04.220 audience what we found that there's, we

01:02:06.280 don't get to know the New Yorker doesn't

01:02:08.200 tell us anything. We don't, right. It's not

01:02:10.500 even in there that these people were fired

01:02:12.040 and disgruntled people. So like where, where

01:02:14.040 Yeah. I wouldn't, I wouldn't credit anything

01:02:15.520 that Jane. Yeah. I wouldn't credit anything

01:02:17.380 that Jane Mayer writes.

01:02:19.200 Yeah. I mean, that's, that's the problem, by

01:02:21.160 the way, petty auntie is also a thing.

01:02:26.740 There's both penny auntie and petty auntie.

01:02:29.120 They mean the same thing. So Charles, I mean,

01:02:32.720 part of what makes me uncomfortable is, and I've,

01:02:34.680 I told my audience this last week, the audience

01:02:36.720 is largely kind of on a different page than I

01:02:39.780 am. I've been defensive of Pete. I definitely

01:02:41.880 do not think he raped that woman at all, but

01:02:44.740 he's certainly been a dog in his personal

01:02:46.980 life in his, uh, what did, what did rich just

01:02:49.660 call him? What did you call him? Tom, Tom, Tom

01:02:52.220 cat, Tom catting around, Tom, Tom cat, dog,

01:02:56.060 what, what have you. Um, but my audience is

01:02:58.740 less forgiving and they have been writing in

01:03:01.540 saying not for this position. You need

01:03:03.960 somebody who can, who has self-control, who

01:03:06.960 is dignified, who can't be compromised by like

01:03:10.880 a Chinese spy. We've seen that happen with a

01:03:13.880 Washington post reporter, you know, like, you

01:03:15.960 know, they don't want somebody who's too

01:03:17.920 susceptible to the lures of the female

01:03:20.580 persuasion. Anyway, what's your take on it?

01:03:25.100 Well, I have many takes. I've been broadly

01:03:28.020 defensive of Pete Hexeth because these

01:03:30.700 allegations aside, I've thought most of the

01:03:32.920 criticisms that were leveled at him were

01:03:35.040 silly. Uh, stipulating that journalists

01:03:38.740 covering this sort of thing are often

01:03:40.720 disasters. Jane Mayo is a disaster. She's

01:03:44.080 unhinged in fact, and she should probably

01:03:46.680 have been disqualified from ever writing

01:03:48.940 about politics again after her behavior

01:03:50.780 during the Kavanaugh scandal, but stipulating

01:03:52.840 now, you know, some of this is obviously

01:03:54.860 true. That email is real. The mother

01:03:59.820 confirmed that, and she said she regretted

01:04:02.760 it, but she probably doesn't regret

01:04:04.940 everything she wrote. Some of it is

01:04:06.920 probably accurate. My question is always

01:04:10.000 to what extent does this intersect with the

01:04:12.780 position for which they have been

01:04:14.340 nominated? So I think that email, while

01:04:17.440 obviously real and probably describing some

01:04:20.080 behavior that was real, is not that

01:04:22.300 informative because people do go through

01:04:24.500 ugly divorces and families do get upset

01:04:26.780 with each other. So even if a lot of that

01:04:29.780 is correct, I can't quite see where that

01:04:33.100 would intersect. Jane Mayo's reporting, of

01:04:35.480 which I'm always skeptical, is more so in

01:04:38.660 that a question, not the question, but a

01:04:41.260 question that the Senate ought to answer. And

01:04:44.160 I'll take this opportunity to say once again,

01:04:46.140 it is imperative that Donald Trump not be

01:04:48.240 allowed to circumvent the Senate, which has a

01:04:51.240 constitutional role, in my view, a mandatory

01:04:53.340 constitutional role, in advising and consenting

01:04:56.760 and ultimately acquiescing to nominations. The

01:04:59.540 Senate, which must do that, ought to look

01:05:01.900 into whether or not he does have a pattern of

01:05:04.300 drunkenness on the job, because that would

01:05:06.400 matter. Somebody who at various points has

01:05:09.840 got very drunk, including at office events, is

01:05:12.600 not a risk. We've all done that. Somebody who has a

01:05:16.660 history of being unable to remain professional

01:05:21.720 while at work, or who has a problem with

01:05:23.960 alcohol, which is the implication there, it

01:05:26.220 might be absolutely scurrilous and untrue, I

01:05:28.740 hope it is, would be a problem. So I would like

01:05:32.660 to see these allegations investigated by the

01:05:38.740 Senate. They have a big staff over there that

01:05:41.140 are going to make an ad to it as they see fit. They

01:05:44.440 have the FBI as well, which by that point, I assume

01:05:48.640 will be in transition mode. We should look into

01:05:54.580 them. I mean, this is exactly why you want to

01:05:56.820 vet your nominees. The way that you just put it, I

01:06:01.800 think skepticism is warranted. And I think that the

01:06:06.880 problems seem relatively minimal. I do as an

01:06:10.680 analytical matter, step aside from what I personally

01:06:13.160 think as an analytical matter, I think Rich is

01:06:15.700 right. I do think that the risk here is that when

01:06:19.240 you combine that sort of baggage, even if we assume

01:06:23.660 that only one quarter of it is true, with the fact that

01:06:27.880 Hegseth is already a controversial pick, purely

01:06:30.980 because he is so young, inexperienced, is outside of the

01:06:36.160 system, which is also in my view, one of the advantages of

01:06:39.380 the pick. It may make it more difficult for him to get

01:06:43.660 through. I have to say, Megan, that Charlie has

01:06:45.880 demonstrated his suitability for any cabinet office

01:06:48.480 because he proved on the election night podcast that he

01:06:51.120 can drink an inordinate amount of alcohol and still

01:06:53.580 maintain professional behavior.

01:06:57.080 It was impressive. Unlike yours truly, who just last

01:07:00.700 week I had one martini on the show and people were

01:07:02.800 calling me a cheap date because I could even get the ads

01:07:04.860 out. I still think Pete will get it. I still have my

01:07:09.720 money on him. I think the rank and file matters to

01:07:11.920 Trump, what they think. And I don't think any of those

01:07:13.980 guys are really going to be looking at Pete saying, oh, he

01:07:16.080 got drunk a lot.

01:07:17.080 Yeah, yeah, that's true.

01:07:18.460 You know, I mean, he served a couple of combat tours, you

01:07:22.500 know, in Iraq and Afghanistan. He was like very honorable. You

01:07:26.380 go back, listen to that New York Times podcast on Pete

01:07:28.420 Hegseth and you will be cheering for him about how he, when

01:07:32.040 he knew there was danger, volunteered to be the first in

01:07:34.020 the room. He, when there was somebody in his unit who did the

01:07:36.160 wrong thing with the opposing side, was the first to say it

01:07:40.220 isn't right. That person needs to be held to account. And it

01:07:43.620 wasn't until he'd been in the services for a long time

01:07:46.100 actively fighting these battles where he got a little

01:07:47.920 jaded about who was leading the troops and like what the

01:07:51.740 mission had been about and why he and his buddies had gone

01:07:54.400 over there and why so many of his friends had died. And I

01:07:56.800 think so many of our servicemen have had that same

01:07:59.120 evolution and would forgive Pete being publicly drunk and

01:08:02.800 dealing with the adjustment back to civilian life and then

01:08:05.040 back to Fox news and city life in New York and then

01:08:09.440 straining his life out, finding, you know, leaning into

01:08:11.840 Christianity, finding a third wife. Yes. But whom by all

01:08:15.260 accounts, you know, he now is happy with and who is happy

01:08:18.160 with him. Um, I don't know. We'll see, but I think he'll be

01:08:22.240 the first, first major cabinet, uh, official with, with a

01:08:25.960 tattoo since maybe George Schultz secretary of state. Really?

01:08:29.520 Who supposedly had a, he was a Princeton guy and supposedly had a

01:08:32.500 tiger tattoo on his rear end. This was, this was never

01:08:34.920 confirmed. No, no way. I didn't know this was a potential

01:08:38.500 deal breaker for cabinet. No, I think it'd be, no, I think

01:08:42.260 it'd be a good thing, right. For the rank and file to have,

01:08:44.460 have a, have a two tattooed guys secretary. But you make a

01:08:47.920 good point about how they, the rank and file is not going to

01:08:50.240 be, uh, put, put off by the, these, uh, no, the, the fact

01:08:54.840 that he was drinking too much. And, and even if it did rush

01:08:58.060 the stage at a strip club, which I understand. Yeah, exactly.

01:09:00.100 In any event, um, my mom, my mom worked her life at the

01:09:04.020 Albany veterans hospital. So she spent her life taking care of

01:09:06.420 veterans. Maybe she could be considered if the sec, if the, if

01:09:10.040 the veterans affairs secretary thing falls, so she could be

01:09:12.480 considered, but she does, I'll disclose right now, have a

01:09:15.120 tattoo. She got it when she turned 70. It's of a rosary and

01:09:19.400 it's on her foot. Wow. Dirty laundry. How many people get

01:09:25.060 tattoos at age 70? That's an uncontroversial tattoo. I don't

01:09:28.840 think that would hurt her prospects in the Senate if she

01:09:31.740 showed her rosary tattoos. I don't know. It seems kind of a

01:09:34.080 Christian nationalist tattoo. It might upset, if Dianne

01:09:36.780 Feinstein was still with us, maybe she would be very upset

01:09:39.700 by your mom's living the dogma loudly, but otherwise I think

01:09:42.860 it would help. Living the dogma. That's right. Okay. How

01:09:46.420 about Kash Patel, Charles? Because the left are not fans. He, I

01:09:52.360 mean, you, it'd be hard pressed to find somebody more loyal to

01:09:56.260 Donald Trump than Kash Patel, who really had a major hand in

01:10:00.000 seeing through the Russia, Russia, Russia lies and calling

01:10:04.060 them out and calling out the personalities who push the lies. Um,

01:10:07.980 and he does have relevant experience to become head of the

01:10:11.300 FBI, but the left is pushing the claim by Bill Barr when

01:10:15.740 Trump allegedly proposed him at the end of his first term

01:10:18.420 saying over my dead body, I think it was over my dead body. Would

01:10:21.900 I allow Kash Patel to take over the FBI? And he was the head of

01:10:25.080 the DOJ at the time. So what do you make of Kash Patel as FBI

01:10:27.820 director? All right. Let me preface this. I am not a burn it

01:10:31.820 down guy. I'm a conservative in a non burn it down sense, a

01:10:36.780 literal conservative, a small C conservative, I suppose. I don't

01:10:39.460 want to burn things down. I think we need a lot of reform in

01:10:42.720 Washington, but by and large, burning things down is a bad

01:10:46.080 idea. You don't know why the fence is standing and so on and so

01:10:49.320 forth. Second preface point. I have criticized a lot of Donald

01:10:54.300 Trump's nominees, some of whom I hope go down. Uh, Matt Gaetz,

01:10:57.420 who won't be the nominee anymore. RFK Jr ought to be voted

01:11:01.620 down. I think probably Tulsi Gabbard, although I don't know

01:11:04.200 enough about it. And definitely the Department of Labor nominee,

01:11:07.920 who is a disaster on policy. Um, I don't have a problem with

01:11:13.200 this nomination. You know why? Because I think we need to

01:11:15.240 abolish the FBI. I've done three podcasts on this with Andy

01:11:18.360 McCarthy, and I've slowly convinced him more each time I've

01:11:21.120 written a piece abolished the FBI about this. I think from its

01:11:25.120 founding, it has been a big problem. It doesn't fit

01:11:27.420 properly into our constitutional system of government. And I

01:11:30.120 think culturally, it is probably irredeemable. That is not to

01:11:33.960 say every FBI agent is bad news, far from it. But it is just a

01:11:38.880 disaster. And I can't think of an organization that needs a

01:11:43.980 wrecking ball, if that's what Kashmir turns out to be more than

01:11:48.740 that one. The encomia to the FBI that I have heard over the last

01:11:53.540 two days, coupled with the pretense that it's some

01:11:57.700 independent organization that exists in the ether that is not

01:12:01.740 responsible to the executive branch, a grotesque. Well, that

01:12:06.000 professionalism, the lifelong bureaucrats in the FBI weren't

01:12:10.080 like this. Good. I mean, you started off with J. Edgar Hoover. And the

01:12:15.900 most recent disaster was James Comey. This is not an institution that

01:12:22.260 is fit for purpose. This is to extend or perhaps torture my

01:12:26.700 Chesterton's fence analogy with which I started. This is a fence that

01:12:30.500 is covered in spikes and mold and is half fallen down. And nobody

01:12:34.900 knows what to do with it. And all the kids are trying to avoid it

01:12:38.460 because they're worried of getting sick. It's a disaster. I'm fine with

01:12:41.900 Kashpatel. Put him in there. Let him do what he wants.

01:12:44.700 This is the soundbite that must have reeled him in, Rich. Sot 11, Kashpatel

01:12:48.840 and the Sean Ryan Show in September.

01:12:51.320 And the biggest problem the FBI has had has come out of its Intel

01:12:54.300 shops. I'd break that component out of it. I'd shut down the FBI Hoover

01:12:57.700 building on day one and reopening the next day as a museum of the

01:13:01.680 deep state. And I'd take the 7,000 employees that work in that

01:13:04.540 building and send them across America to chase down criminals. Go be

01:13:07.840 cops. Your cops. Go be cops. Go chase down murderers and

01:13:11.220 and drug dealers and violent offenders. What do you need 7,000

01:13:14.120 people there for? Same thing with DOJ. What are all these people

01:13:17.080 doing here? Looking for the next government promotion. Looking for

01:13:19.700 their next fancy government title. Looking for their parachute out of

01:13:22.240 government. So while you're bringing in the right people, you also

01:13:24.020 have to shrink government.

01:13:25.220 That's when Charlie's heart started to go a little flutter.

01:13:28.820 I love it. I love it. I do.

01:13:31.380 So I'm not a big

01:13:32.380 counselor of historic figures, but

01:13:35.280 I don't get how that building is still named after

01:13:38.380 J. Edgar Hoover, who in many ways is a symbol of FBI

01:13:42.060 abuses rather than someone to be held up. I mean, if you just take the

01:13:45.920 wiretapping of Martin Luther King alone and then the suicide package they

01:13:51.920 sent to Martin Luther King showing everything they knew about his Tom

01:13:56.220 catting around in the hopes that he killed himself. It's just it's

01:14:00.660 unbelievable that that that building still named Hoover. So my point would

01:14:04.940 just be and and this goes to a number of these these cabinet picks the lion

01:14:09.300 sheriff whom I think are are great and I wholly endorse is that even if you're

01:14:14.860 going to wreck the place, even if you want a wrecking ball, the the wrecker to

01:14:18.960 to adopt that term has to really know what he's doing and really be an effective

01:14:24.280 manager and be politically shrewd. And you're not going to wreck the FBI without

01:14:28.000 getting congressional buy in. And Donald Trump did run his campaign against these

01:14:33.120 institutions, but not with any specific vision to what he was going to do. If he

01:14:38.060 just made reform the FBI in a radical way, that would be like a top five

01:14:43.040 accomplishment and his second term. But what is it? Obviously, cash has some ideas

01:14:47.440 there, but I tend to think they'll get confirmed because I think anyone who

01:14:52.040 doesn't is not totally crazy the way I fear our RFK might be or doesn't have, you

01:14:57.940 know, ethical problems the way Matt Gaetz did and the way, you know, some of the

01:15:03.380 reporting portrays Pete Hegseth is going to get through. Sorry, I always mess it

01:15:09.380 up. I hear that on the editors. That's right. That's why. Yeah, that's why I tend

01:15:13.240 to say Pete. So I tend to I tend to think he'll get through. It's just with him and

01:15:19.240 even Pam Bondi, you know, has a lot of law enforcement experience, right? Her resume

01:15:24.140 is pretty good, but doesn't have a lot of federal experience. They're going to be

01:15:27.400 resisted at every turn. And do they really do they know what they're doing enough to

01:15:32.000 defeat those people that that would be my concern. But do we have time to disagree

01:15:36.920 with Rich? Yeah, go for it. But I think that that is exactly correct with the vast

01:15:42.340 majority of the bureaucracies in D.C. I certainly think it's true of the Department

01:15:47.140 of Justice. I think it's probably true of the Department of Education. And if we

01:15:51.620 wanted to go through labor, energy, commerce, transportation, they have so many

01:15:57.460 moving parts. And there's a certain policy expertise that is necessary for a reformer.

01:16:03.380 I'm just not sure that one needs more insight into the FBI than we heard Kash Patel give in

01:16:12.340 that clip. To me, those are the three problems. One is the intelligence gathering part of it.

01:16:19.260 I think I'm right in saying Andy McCarthy agrees with me on that. I don't want to put words in

01:16:24.420 his mouth. Another is that it just does not spend enough time, as Patel puts it, being cops and

01:16:31.220 enforcing federal law in a really obvious way. And the third is that by having all of those people

01:16:36.440 in that building rather than spreading them out, you are creating this bureaucratic climate culture

01:16:41.560 that leads to people wanting to get into politics and their propinquity to Washington, D.C. and its

01:16:48.060 institutions makes us a problem even more so. So I think that's enough. You know, when I listen to

01:16:56.540 the vast majority of the people who want to smash things up talk, I think you'll fail for exactly the

01:17:01.540 reasons that Rich outlines. It really does matter to have knowledge if you're a reformer. But with that

01:17:08.020 one, he's running essentially a very large police station. And I think that sending him in there would

01:17:15.580 probably be refreshing. I have a thought. Cash could do it for two years and see what he could

01:17:22.760 get done. Or maybe this is the kind of job that wears people out. Maybe he won't do the full 10

01:17:27.200 which you're supposed to get. But then I do see as a potential number two, like a backup option

01:17:32.240 if Cash wants out or if Pam Bondi decides to, you know, leave because these are very stressful jobs.

01:17:39.060 I see your governor, Charlie, Ron DeSantis, after he finishes his term as governor, as a great

01:17:45.020 person who could step into either one of those roles, who is totally on board with Trump's agenda,

01:17:52.280 especially on the FBI. I've talked to him about it myself and would know how to get it done.

01:17:57.280 I like Cash. I hope he gets through. I'm just saying that like he's somebody who's in the wings

01:18:01.340 because he's going to be term limited from running again and he could be of great help.

01:18:05.200 What were you going to say?

01:18:05.620 But that's a great example of someone who had exactly suited to some sort of task like that.

01:18:11.040 He's been in Washington, right? He was a congressman. But he's been in Florida and

01:18:14.820 run administrative agencies and brought bureaucracies to heel and use them to implement

01:18:19.960 his vision and his agenda. So you could slip him in there and whatever it is you want to do,

01:18:25.460 there's a strong chance he'd make it happen. The worry I have with some of these people who are

01:18:29.900 less experienced is they'll show up in the building and they'll never really even know

01:18:34.380 enough to know what's going on. That's my fear. And experience is not, you know, experience can

01:18:40.840 be a symptom of being overly complacent and to establishment and not creative or imaginative

01:18:47.140 enough. Yes. But it can also be hugely important to getting the job done. And people accuse me of

01:18:53.540 being, you know, a overly romantic Reaganite. But the greatest example of this at the Department of

01:18:58.700 Justice was Ed Meese, who, by the time he was working for Reagan in the California governor's

01:19:03.660 office in the mid-60s, had more experience in legal affairs than Matt Gaetz will ever have.

01:19:10.120 You know, he was a prosecutor. I think he was teaching law. He was in private practice.

01:19:14.300 And then he worked for Reagan. And what does he do? His whole task there is defeating

01:19:17.740 the left's lawfare against Reagan in his agenda, took a different form there then,

01:19:22.840 but it still existed, and bringing the bureaucracies to heel. Then he's in the White House for the first

01:19:27.340 term. What does he do? He's the White House counselor, and it's all about bringing the

01:19:31.000 democracies to heel. Then he shows up as AG, and he transforms the place, transforms the place,

01:19:38.240 historic attorney general. And he wouldn't have been able to do it without the experience. And

01:19:43.660 someone like DeSantis, the experience would be a key thing, too.

01:19:47.300 I got to ask you about this soundbite, which is driving our friends on the left crazy today.

01:19:51.380 This is Cash Patel with Steve Bannon on The War Room, Sot 35.

01:19:57.260 Cash, I know you're probably going to be head of the CIA, but do you believe that you can deliver

01:20:02.280 the goods on this in a pretty short order of the first couple of months so we can get rolling

01:20:06.260 on prosecutions?

01:20:08.320 Yes. We got the bench for it, Bannon, and you know those guys. I'm not going to go out there and say

01:20:12.060 their names right now so the radical left-wing media can terrorize them. But, excuse me, the one thing we

01:20:16.940 learned in the Trump administration the first go-around is we got to put in all America patriots

01:20:21.100 top to bottom. And we got them for law enforcement. We got them for intel collection. We got them for

01:20:26.480 offensive operations. We got them for DOD, CIA, everywhere. We will go out and find the

01:20:32.960 conspirators not just in government but in the media. Yes, we're going to come after the people

01:20:37.660 in the media who lied about American citizens, who helped Joe Biden rig presidential elections.

01:20:42.540 We're going to come after you. Whether it's criminally or civilly, we'll figure that out.

01:20:45.660 But, yeah, we're putting you all on notice.

01:20:49.580 That they're going to come after people in the media who lied to help Joe Biden rig the election

01:20:55.080 in 2020, etc. I don't know what that means, Charlie. I'd love to ask him. We'll probably

01:21:00.440 have him on and I'll get the chance at some point. But I don't know what that means exactly. But

01:21:03.860 my overall thought when I heard it was you just like you can't. Like there are some things you can

01:21:10.600 do. But what would be the specific cause of action? Like you even like tough talk on Bannon's war room

01:21:17.340 is fine. It's one thing. But you actually have you cannot file a complaint that will survive one

01:21:22.980 round of motion practice unless you have a colorable legal claim, criminal or civil, or it will be thrown

01:21:28.980 out on the four corners of the document. So I need to know more before I can say whether that's

01:21:34.100 bullshit or what it is. I don't know what he's talking about.

01:21:36.220 Well, he's trying to impress Steve Bannon, which is his first mistake. He also repeated the lie

01:21:42.320 that the 2020 election was rigged or stolen, which it wasn't. The guy's a wrecking ball. I just want

01:21:48.360 to wreck the FBI. So I'm happy to put him in there. But he's talking nonsense. And it's a good thing that

01:21:54.940 he's talking nonsense. And in most circumstance, saying that sort of thing, it would be disqualifying

01:22:01.380 in and of itself, because he's effectively promising that the Trump administration will undermine the First

01:22:08.140 Amendment. I mean, there's just there's no excusing that. That is. Yeah. I mean, this is also a problem

01:22:15.100 that that that movement on the right has, Megan, which is that there are a bunch of podcasts.

01:22:23.060 That's that's one of them. The incentive structure of which is essentially a killer

01:22:30.880 for anyone who succumbs to it because they go on. They know what they're supposed to say.

01:22:36.340 They know who's listening and they push it too far. And he did it there.

01:22:41.620 This this is the most foreseeable pitfall, I think, for the for Trump coming in.

01:22:46.260 If he tries to do something like this, one, it will be an all consuming controversy to it'll be unpopular.

01:22:51.760 And three, as you point out, it'll fail. And so this is this is a totally foreseeable

01:22:56.760 blind alley that that he he desperately needs to avoid. But there are things he's he said that

01:23:02.920 suggest he's interested in doing it and things that are being said on shows like that that

01:23:06.500 suggest he should do it. And it's terrible advice. Yeah, I don't see. I mean, look,

01:23:11.320 if you can show me the cause of action against a media person, there are certain things like

01:23:14.700 defamation law you can use potentially. OK, let's see it. But short of that, there is no cause of action.

01:23:19.620 And what you can do is defund places like NPR. And you should do that. That's not the FBI's job.

01:23:25.660 But we should like Doge should be putting them at the top of the list. It's only a hundred million

01:23:29.400 dollars a year, but it's a hundred million dollars we shouldn't be spending. You guys are the best.

01:23:33.180 It's a we did it. Thank you. We got some grammar lessons and I learned a lot as always.

01:23:39.920 And I'm trying to learn how to say excess excess. Yeah, we will get little nieces out there and

01:23:47.820 explaining pronunciations. Great to see you. Thank you. All right. Coming up, our friend

01:23:55.460 Marsha Clark, famous prosecutor, is here and we're going to ask her about this Joe Biden pardon,

01:24:03.360 as well as something happened in her neck of the woods. You know, she's obviously the OJ prosecutor

01:24:09.100 of California. And there is a real question now about whether the Menendez brothers are about to

01:24:15.420 get let out of jail. The prosecutor who was interested in it lost. So what's going to happen now? That's

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01:27:42.680 Some incredible legal news out of California recently. The Menendez brothers, who were convicted

01:27:48.640 of murdering both of their parents some 30 plus years ago, may be getting out of jail. And of course,

01:27:56.640 one of Hunter Biden's guilty verdicts he was pardoned for took place in California as well.

01:28:02.040 Who better to talk to about all of this than the one and only Marsha Clark. Marsha has a new book out

01:28:07.820 as well. It's called trial by ambush, murder, injustice, and the truth about the case of Barbara

01:28:15.060 Graham. It was just released. This thing is amazing. It's a page turner. She goes deep into the sensational

01:28:21.300 trial of Barbara Graham, who was the third woman executed at San Quentin in 1955. But she has found

01:28:28.800 a lot of facts about this case that will give you serious pause about whether this was a proper trial,

01:28:35.200 conviction, nevermind execution. Marsha, great to see you again. How are you?

01:28:39.840 Hi, Megan. I'm good. How are you doing?

01:28:42.320 I'm awesome. All right, let's do some news of the day and then we'll talk about the book,

01:28:45.460 which I really am fascinated by. Great job on this. Menendez. So there's a bunch of newfound

01:28:52.340 sympathy for them based on this, you know, docudrama that was released about them. And

01:28:58.180 Gascon, who was the outgoing DA, decided to throw a Hail Mary pass to Los Angeles voters not to vote

01:29:05.760 him out by saying, I'm going to let them out or I'm now in favor of resentencing, basically letting

01:29:10.460 them out. They're supposed to be serving life in prison, but he lost. So now there's a new DA,

01:29:15.420 Nathan. Is it Hockman? Hockman? I think it's Hockman. Hockman. Well, whatever. He's coming in.

01:29:21.880 I know what you mean. Yeah. I don't know how Nathan feels about the Menendez brothers,

01:29:26.020 but I know the judge has moved this resentencing hearing, which is basically should they get out

01:29:29.980 of jail to January 30th. So what do we think is likely to happen? It's a good guess. I mean,

01:29:37.480 it's only a guess. I don't have any inside knowledge. I should just start by saying that

01:29:40.860 I was in the office when the first trial happened, but I had nothing to do with it. We all had our

01:29:44.840 own cases. So I can't say I know more than the average person. My guess is it will. I can't make

01:29:54.220 a guess. I don't know. You know what they would do. Come on. I know. I won't hold it against you.

01:29:58.780 All right. Yeah. I don't hate predicting. I don't think they're going to get out. I don't think

01:30:04.400 this is going to happen. I don't think anybody was that impressed with Gascon's position.

01:30:09.500 As you know, he lost. Hockman actually kind of chided him for making this Hail Mary play

01:30:16.280 in the midst of the election when he was like double digits down and very suspiciously

01:30:21.540 comes up with this big, you know, big parade about, oh, the poor Menendez brothers.

01:30:26.900 I wonder if people are thinking at all about the fact that there are others in prison

01:30:31.620 serving a sentence of life without, which is what they're serving. That means life without

01:30:35.840 the possibility of parole, who are much less culpable. I have clients that are serving life

01:30:42.460 without parole right now who never killed anyone. So it does make me think, now, wait a minute.

01:30:50.600 You know, I know that their defense was, and everybody should know this. I know you know,

01:30:54.400 Megan, but just to underline it for the audience, the defense is not, oh, daddy boinked me and mommy

01:31:00.320 wouldn't stop him, so I get to kill him. It wasn't that. The defense was, you know, daddy threatened

01:31:06.240 to kill me. I believe he was going to kill me, even if you think I'm unreasonable in thinking that.

01:31:12.340 I genuinely believe it because of things he said and did toward the end. That was their defense.

01:31:18.540 It sold very well in the first trial, well enough to hang the jury pretty solidly. In the second trial,

01:31:24.520 not so much because there was much less of the defense evidence of abuse. Make of it what you

01:31:29.920 will. The second jury, and the second jury was already comprised of some people who were probably

01:31:36.120 a little pissed off that the first jury didn't convict. So I think that tells you something about

01:31:41.280 the climate even back then. And today, you know, today now you have balancing forces. You have a

01:31:48.660 greater awareness of abuse, child abuse, and the kind of trauma it inflicts. And we are, I think,

01:31:53.200 are more sensitive to that. And that's a good thing. But you have to remember that that's not

01:31:57.940 a license to kill. So, and when you think about, are they just getting this because they're

01:32:03.580 celebrities, because they were rich kids, because you had the, you know, Kim Kardashian was their,

01:32:08.340 he was their champion to some extent. Yeah. I don't know that people love that. So I think all of

01:32:14.820 that, unfortunately, is going to come into play, which it shouldn't, it should be a straight up

01:32:18.980 call for the judge in terms of balancing all of the equities. But, you know, I guess we'll see what

01:32:23.740 happens. It's so good to talk to you because I talked to your partner in crime. He's not really,

01:32:27.680 you just come on together sometimes, Mark Garagos, but I know he's a friend and you guys grew up in

01:32:31.440 the California legal system together. And of course he's representing them and is 100% on the other side

01:32:36.220 and came on and totally convinced me that they should be let out. Now I hear you talk. I'm like,

01:32:40.260 no, these are good points. Well, we'll wait and see what the judge does. But you heard it here.

01:32:45.160 Marsha Clark, one of the best says, don't, don't bet on it. And then getting out. Garagos said they'd

01:32:49.920 be home with him for, for Thanksgiving dinner. Now that didn't happen. It's not going to be Christmas

01:32:54.880 dinner. Oh boy. Now we're shooting for like Valentine's day or Easter. Okay. Let's talk about

01:33:01.000 this book. Cause this is a great idea. First of all, how did you even think to write this book?

01:33:06.240 Again, it's called trial by ambush, murder, injustice, and the truth about the case of

01:33:10.100 Barbara Graham. I never heard of Barbara Graham. Um, so how did you even think to write about her?

01:33:15.500 Good question. So I was actually thinking about writing about someone else and I had been thinking

01:33:20.080 about writing a true crime book for a long time. I've been handling appellate cases for the defense

01:33:24.480 court appointed cases for 15 years, 16 years now. And I kind of thought I handle true crime every day.

01:33:31.000 Really? I'm going to write a book. But then it kind of, I warmed to the ideas. I thought,

01:33:35.180 well, it would be nice to take a deep dive and tell the story and look back at, you know, what

01:33:40.840 they did and how they did it and why they did it. And was the verdict correct? You know, it would be

01:33:45.880 so interesting to look at it from a different point of view. And I was investigating a totally

01:33:50.500 different case. And that case I was looking at initially turned out to be just another monster

01:33:55.980 in the closet, kind of a, you know, another bizarro freakish person, a woman, but you know,

01:34:01.160 that's not enough. If I'm going to go and do a true crime story, I want it to be about something.

01:34:05.960 I want it to be about some principles and something that resonates in today's world.

01:34:10.980 And I just happened to see a footnote that mentioned Barbara Graham. I thought,

01:34:14.280 let's look, she was executed as well. Let's look and see what happened to her.

01:34:19.100 So when I first saw it, and I saw that it was kind of its own trial of the century back in 1953,

01:34:23.660 there was a book written about it, actually another book, the one I recommend,

01:34:28.620 Proof of Guilt by Kathleen Cairns, which does mention the Barbara Graham case, doesn't go into

01:34:34.260 it a lot because it's a book about the death penalty, but it didn't go into the trial.

01:34:38.180 And I thought, well, there's probably been a ton written about it. I'm not going to bother.

01:34:41.040 You know, I don't want to go on that tread ground that's already been trodden to death.

01:34:45.140 But then as I looked into it, I discovered, well, people hadn't really written about it.

01:34:49.960 There was a lot of press coverage back in the day. I mean, a ton, a ton. But the coverage was

01:34:55.100 this breathless media kind of tabloid coverage that spared no, no word in the thesaurus for the

01:35:03.160 way she looked, her hair, her makeup, her clothes. And it was ridiculous. And I thought, wait a minute,

01:35:07.660 maybe there's something here. And then I start to read all of the articles that were there and

01:35:11.700 they're short. There's a one here and one there. And then there's a book that, okay, that's it.

01:35:16.100 That probably did it for me. I won't write about it. Turns out to be a book written by one of the

01:35:20.300 tabloid reporters that was out after Barbara on the warpath from day one. And he collaborated with

01:35:25.260 the prosecutor. I thought, okay, I don't know that this is going to be so unbiased. And as I read the

01:35:30.300 book, I realized it's got a lot of stuff in there that can't be true. So I thought, okay, maybe when

01:35:34.920 I'm looking at her as you're talking and we're showing the pictures of Barbara and you, you point

01:35:39.360 this out, obviously is the main theme of the book, but you look at Barbara Graham and the first thing

01:35:42.600 you notice is she's stunningly attractive. And what I am thinking about is I've told the audience this

01:35:49.760 before, but when the Anna Nicole Smith case went up to the U S Supreme court, it was on, it was on

01:35:54.480 bankruptcy. It was on, um, uh, probate law, March. It was on probate law and whether she should get,

01:35:59.800 you know, the, the money from her dead, very elderly husband. And no one gives a damn about

01:36:05.080 probate law. I had been to the U S Supreme court covering a lot of very, very boring cases and

01:36:08.720 nobody flooded the courtroom, no media, but Anna Nicole Smith showed up that day and she looked amazing.

01:36:15.700 She lost all this weight. She had this great black outfit on. It was like, she came in

01:36:19.060 and everybody was like, and suddenly everybody want to know about probate law. And Barbara Graham

01:36:24.480 had a similar star factor, even though she wasn't a star, but she, they'd never seen the likes of

01:36:30.320 this kind of a person at a murder trial. Right. It was, especially back in the fifties,

01:36:35.660 the juxtaposition of this beautiful woman charged with this really heinous crime. And the crime is

01:36:40.660 heinous because it was a home invasion, robbery, murder of this elderly woman, totally innocent,

01:36:45.760 and was only even targeted because they believed that her son-in-law who was a big casino entrepreneur,

01:36:52.180 Tudor Scherer, um, would come and visit her from Las Vegas and leave money with her in a safe.

01:36:58.120 So they targeted her thinking that they were going to find a bonanza in her house, but they also knew

01:37:03.700 she was very security conscious. She was a vaudeville trooper who traveled the world and was not used to

01:37:08.800 having a house and she kept it locked down all the time. And they knew that there's no way she would

01:37:12.360 open the door to a man. So they needed a lure. And that was Barbara. She was petite. She was beautiful.

01:37:18.220 She knew how to say, I'm sorry, my car broke down. Can I use your phone, please? And of course,

01:37:23.340 Mabel Monaghan, the innocent victim, let her in. And then the men followed Barbara into the house.

01:37:28.900 And that was that. And so this juxtaposition of the beauty and then the two beasts that were flanking

01:37:34.640 her, which were the masterminds, the actual masterminds of this case, were thugs and mass

01:37:39.920 murderers. And none of it fit together. None of it made any sense. And I realized that, you know,

01:37:45.500 the only way to get the truth of this, because the press was not reliable, the book that I found

01:37:50.020 was not reliable. I have to get the trial transcripts. That's the only way to know the

01:37:53.540 truth about this. And that was its own journey. Hunting down, you know, a case where it was over 70

01:37:59.260 years old, wound up getting lucky with people who were willing to help and advise me the death

01:38:03.900 penalty cases. You should, I should know this having handled them. Transcripts for a death case

01:38:08.680 are never destroyed. They are kept forever. And so we went to the archives and sure enough,

01:38:14.460 it took months, but I got them all 4,000 plus pages of them. So, yeah.

01:38:20.680 But then you, you were horrified by a couple of things you found. And one that will be interesting

01:38:25.760 to the audience is you and she had similar experiences with the media and the way you

01:38:33.760 were being portrayed in the way they were portraying her. Can you explain that?

01:38:37.260 Yeah. I mean, no. And yes, yes, because it's, again, it's almost like a man bites dog situation.

01:38:44.060 When you see a woman doing something, you're not accustomed to seeing a woman do, whether it's

01:38:47.640 violent murder or being a prosecutor in a high profile case, which seems ridiculous to me,

01:38:53.980 which is why I'm laughing because there were so many female prosecutors at that time

01:38:57.600 that, that were handling high profile cases. And yet the world was not aware of that. They were

01:39:02.820 not aware that this is a pretty common thing, even in the nineties, as of the nineties, not what you

01:39:07.700 saw on the TV shows. Yes, exactly. Right. You saw law and order, you know, it's always a man,

01:39:14.140 a white man, this time it wasn't. And it was really all those crime shows, every crime show,

01:39:20.120 you know, growing up in the seventies and the eighties, it was always a male prosecutor.

01:39:23.780 Absolutely. Right. Absolutely. So that was something unusual, but if anything,

01:39:28.300 really, Megan, I've got to say reading Barbara's coverage made me feel like, boy,

01:39:33.580 and people thought I had it bad. Uh, not, that was nothing compared to what Barbara was put through.

01:39:38.080 And it was, it was wildly inaccurate as well. I mean, in my case it was too,

01:39:41.620 but I remember specifically seeing a picture of her, um, when her ex-husband walked in the courtroom

01:39:47.880 and it was, it was expected that he was going to back her alibi. Um, and then it was expected that

01:39:54.600 he would, he might not. So he, she, he came into the courtroom. It was a bombshell and she was

01:39:59.560 looking over her shoulder. They described it in the press, her malevolent glare, her eyes,

01:40:04.840 two pools of gleaming, vicious hatred. She was looking over her shoulder. That's all she was doing.

01:40:11.240 There was absolutely nothing about her expression that said anything like that.

01:40:15.840 She was set up to fail very clearly by a media that was selling a bunch of copy based on these

01:40:21.900 descriptions of her. And, but the most, this isn't just Marsha Clark, who's sympathetic,

01:40:27.540 empathetic to a female victim or not a victim, but in a way she was a victim. Uh, this is,

01:40:32.940 you actually found real testimonials. Well, one in particular, a letter by the key,

01:40:39.940 one of the key perpetrators that did not match up with his trial testimony at all and it wasn't

01:40:49.320 turned over to the defense. It's exculpatory evidence, not turned over to the defense.

01:40:54.680 Okay. Wait, you got to hear more on this again. It's called trial by ambush, murder, injustice,

01:41:00.680 and the truth about the case of Barbara Graham out now on Amazon and other booksellers.

01:41:04.420 The good thing about this book is it's not everywhere. It's not being pushed everywhere.

01:41:09.240 So if you have a family member who's into true crime, knows Marsha, maybe is a fan,

01:41:14.160 watch the OJ trial, whatever. This is a great gift. Cause people won't see it coming. You know,

01:41:18.260 they'll be like, Oh, this is, and I'm telling you, this is a riveting story. Like who's ever heard of

01:41:23.600 this woman. She meets a very dark ending, which is, you know, we've kind of shown you, uh, but how she

01:41:29.020 got there and Marsha's deconstruction of the case is a page turner. So Marsha, tell us about this

01:41:34.600 testimony that you found. So this was amazing. When the case was first being investigated,

01:41:40.880 they wound up having to arrest Barbara and Jack Santos and Emmett Perkins before they really could

01:41:48.040 make a case against them because no one was talking and without someone, they had no physical evidence.

01:41:52.720 They had no eyewitness. They had no outside person. Someone on the inside had to break. Eventually they

01:41:58.060 wound up breaking John True, who was a member of this team that went in to the home invasion robbery

01:42:03.640 and committed this heinous crime. John True had no record. He was a deep sea diver, but he was no

01:42:10.180 cherry and they found him and they sweated him for, I think almost three days in jail and eventually

01:42:17.540 even brought in some friends to try and beat him down and talk to them. You've got to give us a

01:42:21.540 statement because they can't make a case without him. And they did. Ultimately he said, I will not talk

01:42:26.700 unless you give me full immunity for all charges. I walk out the door and even got the DA himself to

01:42:31.880 get on the phone to promise it. And the DA did. They then went up, they flew up to take his statement

01:42:37.720 with a stenographer. This is an official statement, 42 pages long, where they questioned him about the

01:42:43.140 crime. He gives a halting version of it where they have to pry it out of him, like with flyers,

01:42:48.520 but they get it. He makes a statement and that statement should have been turned over to the

01:42:54.180 defense immediately. That is one of those things that just, even back then, even in the 50s, you must

01:42:59.360 turn over the statement of a key witness who is also an accomplice, for God's sake. You couldn't get

01:43:05.120 more important than that. They never did. They hid it. They pretended it was just a, hi, how are you,

01:43:11.880 meet and greet kind of thing. And you know that they never turned it over because the defense talked about

01:43:16.240 it in their closing argument. You know, I don't know what they said. I don't know why they said it, but

01:43:21.160 you know, we're not going to, uh, we don't have to worry about that because there was nothing to it.

01:43:26.800 And the, and the prosecution went along with that and deliberately hid that statement. And it was key

01:43:31.740 because that accomplice's credibility was everything to the case, everything. If you can't make the jury

01:43:37.240 believe him, you have absolutely nothing. So it was a real, uh, horrible thing, even though there were

01:43:44.880 some respect, in some respects it was consistent, but in many it was inconsistent. It was enough,

01:43:48.500 I think for a jury to say, I'm not sure I believe this guy. They hid that, but that's not all they

01:43:53.880 did. I mean, there were all kinds of shenanigans, some of which were legal back then, but they were

01:43:58.960 pushing the envelope. And, and I think that was part of my, my, my issue with this, which is a shocker

01:44:05.460 to me. I went into this thinking very excited because the lead prosecutor was an icon in the DA's

01:44:10.440 office. Somebody I revered. We all did. We all did. It was a joke in the DA's office. Oh, if we lost a

01:44:16.220 case, Oh, Jay Miller leave, he could have won it. Oh, you know, he would have won it. He was an

01:44:20.660 amazing, he, he tried Carol Chessman, uh, the red light bandit, um, rapist, uh, all these famous

01:44:27.480 cases. And so he was the lead prosecutor in this case. And I was expecting, anticipating the excitement

01:44:34.380 of watching our, the icon in action. And what I found was a cheap shot artist. What I found was

01:44:40.740 somebody who pushed the envelope in ways that was even a federal judge said was unseemly and

01:44:46.260 horrifyingly, um, personal in his attack misogynistic. Yeah. I guess you could call it that too, but it was

01:44:53.880 much worse than just that. He went after her in a personal way that unfairly maligned her. And I

01:44:59.840 prosecutors, you know, have a duty that goes above and beyond the client. I, but defense attorney owes

01:45:05.020 only his client, a prosecutor owes a fair trial and owes, owes it to the jury to present a case in a

01:45:10.700 fair way, in an even handed way. That is the gig. And so you have to be careful of stepping over the

01:45:17.600 line. It's one thing that you can say, well, I can, but just because you can, doesn't mean you

01:45:23.240 should. And you have to always think about what's right and what's fair. And I don't think they were

01:45:28.100 thinking about that at all. In this case, she was double crossed by a couple of people during the

01:45:35.160 course of the trial, including a jailhouse informant. Um, this guy, John true was, you know,

01:45:40.880 treated like his word was inviolate without knowing that he had said a very different story that would

01:45:45.700 have been much more helpful to her had her defense lawyer known of it. And in the end, she was convicted

01:45:52.580 of murdering this poor woman. Um, meanwhile, you don't deny that she took place. It took part in

01:45:59.860 the crime that she was the person to get her to open the door, but that she, there was absolutely

01:46:04.740 no reason to believe that she could have beat, beaten her to death. I mean, basically that's what

01:46:09.860 happened. And she was this petite, tiny little woman. And you point out that she was accused of

01:46:14.420 pistol whipping her, but even the main witness said she had left the gun in the car. So it does seem

01:46:20.060 like they were frothing at the mouth to get this beautiful woman. It was just too good a story,

01:46:27.360 no matter how not credible the main witness was. So then it, it takes an even darker turn.

01:46:35.120 She gets sentenced to death. I mean, it's like one thing to get the verdict wrong. It's bad enough to

01:46:40.280 be, you know, to get that wrong, but then she gets sentenced to death and they, they put her in the gas

01:46:47.640 chamber so much. So like, so horrifying that they made a movie out of this. You point this out

01:46:53.600 called I want to live. And, uh, this is from 1958. It featured actress, actress, Susan Hayward

01:47:01.540 playing Barbara and here viewer warning. It's disturbing. It's the execution scene.

01:47:06.900 Uh, but here's a bit of that. Barbara, I'm very sorry. Goodbye. And God bless you.

01:47:17.280 I want a mask.

01:47:20.640 A mask.

01:47:22.400 I don't want to look at people. I don't want to see them staring at me.

01:47:28.160 I have one.

01:47:29.460 When you hear the pellets drop, count 10, take a deep breath. It's easier that way.

01:47:33.300 How do you know?

01:47:59.460 It's crazy. It's pretty bold to have a film like that in 1958.

01:48:03.300 You know, what's interesting about it, Megan, people who saw the film back then and even now,

01:48:09.260 um, are aware that it was a thing. The, the film was largely fiction. They really whitewashed

01:48:15.700 Barbara to an extent that was a little absurd. She was not an angel, but she certainly wasn't a demon.

01:48:21.800 She was a misdemeanor kind of check hider, you know, dice girl. She was never violent in her life.

01:48:28.040 But the one thing about that film that was acknowledged by all sides, including police to

01:48:33.000 be absolutely accurate was that execution scene. They did it down to the letter. And in the book,

01:48:39.220 I actually, um, liberally quote from the testimony of the nurse who spent the night with her before

01:48:45.120 she was executed and talked about everything that happened up to the execution. And the reason that

01:48:50.840 we got into that is even after her death, the prosecutors still were going after her to try

01:48:55.860 and claim that she had done a last minute confession, which wasn't true. So there was

01:49:01.020 no end. They, I mean, they chased her into the gas chamber and then continued to go after her. It was

01:49:06.860 pretty horrifying. It was like the, they had to have a notch in the belt. It went beyond seeking

01:49:12.420 justice. That's, that's something else. So she didn't, there was no last minute confession,

01:49:19.000 but there was a very interesting statement to one of the priests who was with her. And for that,

01:49:25.940 you will have to read Marsha's book and you will be glad you did. It's called trial by ambush,

01:49:31.740 murder, injustice, and the truth about the case of Barbara Graham. Marsha, great to see you. I guess

01:49:37.360 before you go, party words, do you support the sweeping pardon of Hunter Biden?

01:49:43.160 What? He said he wasn't going to do that. Didn't he say he wasn't going to pardon him?

01:49:48.740 What? He did. I have nothing. I have nothing. You know, I mean, do we need this really? Do we need

01:49:55.440 this? I mean, now there's been so much criticism of Trump's pardons for so many, for others. You know,

01:50:01.380 how can we say that either side is blameless now? Who do we look at? I don't get it. And after you said

01:50:07.240 you wouldn't, I, yeah, no, I don't think he should. That's what needs to happen. You need to run for

01:50:15.040 governor and set things right in California. And then maybe after that, you can take on the national

01:50:20.980 problem many years from now. We'd love to see it. You know how short my campaign would be, Megan?

01:50:27.260 Five seconds. Five seconds. Yeah, I hate it. That's it. Okay. Great to see you. Thank you for

01:50:36.940 being here. Thanks for having me. Don't forget. Check it out. Trial by Ambush by Marsha Clark.

01:50:43.160 Thanks to all of you for listening. Coming up tomorrow, the guys from the fifth column return.

01:50:47.640 That's always fun. Don't miss it.

01:50:49.140 Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - December 02, 2024

Biden's Lies Exposed as He Pardons Hunter, and Media Smears of Pete Hegseth, with Charles C.W. Cooke, Rich Lowry, and Marcia Clark ｜ Ep. 954

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