The Megyn Kelly Show - Black Gloves Found Near Nancy Guthrie Home, and Mystery Man Seen with TWO Backpacks, with Phil Holloway and More

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00:01:00.720 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show,

00:01:02.540 live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:01:12.420 Hey, everyone. I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:01:14.080 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:01:15.240 We are on the road having a little President's Day holiday with the fam,

00:01:20.000 but obviously we weren't going to not do the show,

00:01:23.140 especially given how busy the news time has been in this case

00:01:26.060 and this story have been for all of us.

00:01:28.680 So we've got all of our all-stars with us today,

00:01:31.520 and we're going to kick it off with Phil Holloway.

00:01:33.600 We've had a lot of developments since yesterday.

00:01:35.520 We're going to get to some of them with Phil,

00:01:37.600 who is live in Tucson right by Nancy Guthrie's house.

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00:02:45.380 Phil, good to see you.

00:02:46.580 So I think the biggest thing that's happened since we last saw you

00:02:49.320 is the tent this morning over the outside of Nancy Guthrie's home.

00:02:55.900 Can you just tell us about that,

00:02:57.320 and then we'll get into the search around the gloves.

00:02:59.920 Yeah, I had to drive over there and look at it just to see it with my own eyes.

00:03:03.100 And, you know, look, it's the kind of thing that I would have expected to see

00:03:06.600 to protect that scene, like, early on in the investigation.

00:03:11.160 But they put it up, they went inside,

00:03:13.460 and it looks like they were doing some technical video work,

00:03:16.260 which I believe would be designed to maybe get precise height measurements

00:03:22.720 for the perpetrator that we see on the pictures and on the video.

00:03:26.580 So, and then they took it down as soon as they left.

00:03:30.040 So it went up, they did some work, technical work.

00:03:33.300 Looks like they had some videography equipment as well.

00:03:36.240 Maybe they're doing like a crime scene recreation

00:03:39.960 or a video of some type inside there,

00:03:42.300 and then they took it down and they left.

00:03:44.380 So, yeah, that was just one of the very interesting

00:03:46.160 and I would say maybe odd things,

00:03:49.440 but I'm sure there's a good explanation for it once we learn what that is.

00:03:53.260 But there are some other things that are going on that are,

00:03:55.280 I think, a little bit peculiar.

00:03:56.840 Yeah, well, tell us what they are.

00:03:59.000 All right, so in the middle of the night,

00:04:03.440 around 2.15 in the morning here in Tucson,

00:04:07.080 the sheriff's forensic folks go out

00:04:10.640 and they search this area just off the side of the roadway,

00:04:15.620 very close to where I'm sitting right now,

00:04:17.720 but also very close to Nancy Guthrie's home.

00:04:21.220 Now, I went back out there today in the daylight

00:04:25.020 and I took my own video and I looked around

00:04:28.160 and, you know, I think that if you're looking for something,

00:04:31.700 and by the way, this is not that far

00:04:33.040 from where they found the gloves yesterday,

00:04:35.760 but if you're looking for something,

00:04:37.760 I would say go in the daylight, you know,

00:04:40.900 rather than go out with flashlights.

00:04:42.660 Right, so you're telling me they went at 2.15 a.m.

00:04:46.680 to the spot searching?

00:04:48.120 Yeah.

00:04:48.920 And so it's the kind of place where you would look

00:04:52.180 if, like, you can pull out of Nancy's home, right,

00:04:56.280 and you just head back towards Tucson,

00:04:58.200 and that could be the way that you go.

00:05:00.640 It's just one of the expected routes of egress from there, right?

00:05:05.000 And so if you found gloves just down the road,

00:05:08.160 it makes sense to search other areas on that road.

00:05:10.940 So that much I get, but I just don't understand

00:05:13.660 why they do it in the dark with flashlights

00:05:15.740 because I was able to go out there in the broad daylight

00:05:18.380 and I could see very well.

00:05:20.220 I mean, there's items of trash and other things.

00:05:22.360 Here's the map. We're showing it on the board for the viewing audience.

00:05:23.580 You can see Nancy's home is labeled in red at the top of our little map,

00:05:27.440 and then the early a.m. search happened in the middle there,

00:05:30.480 and then down below the early a.m. search

00:05:32.740 is where they found those gloves yesterday,

00:05:35.400 which we haven't hit exactly, but people have likely heard about it.

00:05:38.460 And last night, the New York Post happened to be with law enforcement

00:05:41.760 when they found, now we're told, it was a pair of black gloves.

00:05:46.320 At first, the report was it's one glove, and now it's since been confirmed.

00:05:50.160 They found a pair.

00:05:51.640 They're not describing them as identical to what they believe

00:05:56.380 the perpetrator here was wearing, but they do look similar.

00:05:59.780 But everyone's quick to point out, Phil, that it's the desert,

00:06:03.100 and you really can't function at all in the desert if you're doing any sort of pruning

00:06:07.280 or gardening or cleanup even without gloves, or you're going to walk away pretty bloody.

00:06:12.640 So we have no idea whether these gloves have any relation to the Nancy Guthrie case,

00:06:17.120 but the cops have them, and they're being analyzed now, yes?

00:06:20.960 Yep, that's my understanding.

00:06:22.600 I think there's a possibility they could be connected, and let me explain why.

00:06:26.620 I've been able to develop a source or two of my own in the short time that I've been here,

00:06:31.020 some people that I've talked to, and it is believed that the perpetrator had a phone in his pocket

00:06:39.960 when you see him in those videos and in the photos at the doorway, at the Nest camera.

00:06:46.320 And so a telephone, a cell phone, even if it's turned off, there's ways to track that.

00:06:52.340 And so I believe that the searches that we've seen in the area of both Nancy's home yesterday

00:07:00.080 and higher up in the foothills all along this Campbell Road, which is where I was this morning,

00:07:04.280 and even over by Annie Guthrie's house, I believe they are sort of following a perceived

00:07:12.500 or believed route of travel following a device.

00:07:17.000 And specifically, a neighbor over at Annie's neighborhood didn't want to be interviewed on

00:07:23.920 the camera, but told me that the FBI had been at her house and that one of the things they were

00:07:28.980 looking for, among other things, was a cell phone, okay?

00:07:33.280 So I'm putting all this together, and there's obviously missing pieces, but what it's starting

00:07:38.460 to paint the picture of, for me at least, is the law enforcement officers believe that they have

00:07:44.920 a general route of travel, and they are searching more specifically now

00:07:49.840 along where that phone might have traveled, either going to or from Nancy Guthrie's home.

00:07:56.460 I mean, if that's true, Phil, that's huge.

00:07:59.500 I mean, if they actually have a cell phone now associated potentially with this crime,

00:08:04.980 then we may be hours away from an arrest.

00:08:07.860 Like, how long would it take them to figure out who owns the cell phone?

00:08:13.300 Well, you know, that's a good question that I'm not a cell phone expert.

00:08:18.040 I can just tell you what the sources have told me, that that's one thing the FBI was

00:08:22.960 trying to find, and if it's a burner, it may take more time.

00:08:27.660 But if it's actually registered to somebody, then, yeah, they could very easily have a name.

00:08:33.180 So the FBI just is holding these cards very close to the vest.

00:08:37.940 But if there is a cell phone, and I believe there is, and I believe that's the source of

00:08:43.820 a lot of these new searches, that's what's driving this, it's driving the location of

00:08:47.960 where you see the FBI fanning out, searching all around, you know, Annie's house a couple

00:08:53.080 of days ago.

00:08:54.040 And so it put all this together, and I believe that they are working off that sort of a

00:08:59.620 presumption, and they're trying to track down where that phone came and went.

00:09:03.200 So you're saying your information is, based on your sources, that they have identified

00:09:08.560 a cell phone that they think may be attached to this crime, and that they're figuring it

00:09:15.420 out thanks to the cell towers, the possible route that this person took, the on the night

00:09:22.460 in question, and going and searching.

00:09:24.660 And that's what's explaining these overnight searches, because this isn't the first overnight

00:09:28.340 search we've had.

00:09:29.240 We've had a couple of these.

00:09:30.220 Yeah, and remember, the phones talk to towers, but they also talk to every Wi-Fi router.

00:09:38.160 If you go down any neighborhood, and you look on your phone, and you see the list of available

00:09:42.000 networks, you may not be joining those networks, but your phone is communicating with those routers.

00:09:48.600 And so there is a digital footprint that is left behind by the phone everywhere it goes.

00:09:53.600 They looked, I would say, around Annie's house, I would say that was probably maybe a half-mile

00:10:00.820 radius, if I had to guess, based on what I saw.

00:10:04.120 And I went to the house, and I drove all around when the FBI was out there, and I was seeing

00:10:08.500 these teams of agents, and there was some sheriff's deputies out there too, blocks and blocks away.

00:10:14.180 So they were literally fanning out in a large area, which would be consistent with maybe

00:10:19.560 a ping off of a cell phone tower that you can't, maybe you can't triangulate it and

00:10:24.540 get a more precise location.

00:10:26.200 Wow.

00:10:26.520 But, you know, it seemed to be a pretty large area they were searching, including people's

00:10:29.960 yards, the neighbor's yards.

00:10:31.240 They were looking for any items of relevance.

00:10:34.840 Well, I mean, if that's what explains the activity over at Annie and Tomas' house, then

00:10:42.320 that's even more interesting, that a phone, if it's true, that a phone that police think

00:10:46.980 may have been associated with this crime went back into the Annie and Tomas neighborhood.

00:10:53.180 That's interesting as an investigative matter, and it's also explanatory of why they keep going

00:10:59.260 back over there and canvassing neighbors and so on.

00:11:01.860 And so you're saying you believe that too is based on your sourcing from one presumes people

00:11:07.720 in a position to know on them having a possible phone lead.

00:11:11.860 Yeah, and look, the fact that, you know, you just have to look at the facts.

00:11:17.180 I mean, the investigation is clearly focusing on two general places, the area around Nancy's

00:11:25.520 home and the area around Annie's home.

00:11:28.860 And so the fact that the investigation keeps taking officers to those places, you know,

00:11:34.800 it doesn't take a genius to understand that that's where they think they're going to find

00:11:38.380 evidence.

00:11:38.920 And so they're not there on accident.

00:11:41.100 They weren't out here at 2.15 in the morning by accident either.

00:11:44.040 They were looking for something specific because it wasn't a large search area.

00:11:49.160 They literally went to like this one intersection right where I was, and you showed the video.

00:11:53.920 So it's not a big area.

00:11:55.640 So they had a specific place that they were going to, and it was for some reason.

00:11:59.480 We just don't know what it was.

00:12:00.620 It wasn't an accident, though.

00:12:02.160 And that's two, well, two times that they've done something in the middle of the night or

00:12:07.280 in the cover of darkness that easily could have been done during the daytime hours, and

00:12:12.540 we just don't know why.

00:12:13.780 Why was this search done at 2.15 a.m.?

00:12:15.820 Why did they go to Annie and Tomas' house at 7.30 to 10.30 p.m. when it was dark and

00:12:22.000 not turn on the lights and take photographs inside?

00:12:24.420 I mean, it's just all so bizarre to us.

00:12:27.460 Okay.

00:12:27.820 I want to ask you about now this alert that the sheriff just sent out saying he's asking

00:12:34.060 for more video.

00:12:35.480 He's asking for the locals, the residents in Nancy's neighborhood, to do what exactly,

00:12:40.040 Phil?

00:12:40.140 So they're using people who have, I guess, the ring system, and there's a way to send

00:12:45.680 out alerts, asking people for video at certain dates and certain times.

00:12:50.980 And some of these go back into, as I understand it, January, multiple times prior to the disappearance

00:12:57.960 of Nancy Guthrie.

00:13:00.460 So the question then, obviously, is what's special about those dates?

00:13:05.360 And they're not obviously telling us the reason they're focusing on those dates.

00:13:10.140 But if I had to guess, I had to hypothesize, one hypothesis would be they might be checking

00:13:15.980 to see who has delivered maybe an Amazon package to that area.

00:13:22.900 But, you know, it's not hard to go on somebody's Amazon history and see when they've had things

00:13:27.220 delivered, right?

00:13:28.200 And so they might be trying to identify individuals who were in that area, in that neighborhood,

00:13:33.560 making some type of delivery.

00:13:35.320 We've already seen one person who's a known delivery driver that was taken in for questioning

00:13:41.040 and then released.

00:13:43.060 Poor Carlos.

00:13:43.880 Well, because there's two communications from the sheriff's office.

00:13:47.220 One is actually from the sheriff's office, and one allegedly isn't.

00:13:50.500 The one that just came out from the Pima County sheriff says, we want everything for the last

00:13:55.040 month, from January 1st to February 2nd.

00:13:57.660 We want everything you have.

00:13:59.820 Scour your ring cameras and your Nest cameras and let us know if you see anything suspicious

00:14:03.760 whatsoever to all the people in the area.

00:14:05.640 And that definitely came from the sheriff, and he just put it out.

00:14:07.880 But then there was an earlier report that was circulated on the neighborhood, like, ring

00:14:12.180 camera watch chat that you're referring to.

00:14:15.320 And that refers to two separate dates on which the sheriff allegedly wants data.

00:14:20.960 The sheriff's office is saying, we didn't give that.

00:14:24.320 Though that ring camera, like, discussion, there's a screen grab of it that the neighbors

00:14:29.740 posted, one of them online.

00:14:31.760 And it does show a sheriff's seal and seems to come from the Pima County sheriff, though

00:14:36.920 the sheriff's office is officially denying that for some reason.

00:14:39.720 It could just be that the sheriff went to, you know, people from the deputies had gone to

00:14:46.580 neighbors and said, we want footage from January 11th between 9 p.m. and midnight.

00:14:51.800 Okay, that's weird, right?

00:14:52.880 January 11th, as far as we know, has nothing to do with this crime, but they know more than

00:14:56.540 we do.

00:14:57.480 And then we also want January 31st, which is the Saturday that Nancy disappeared.

00:15:03.640 It's the morning, the morning before she disappeared, from 9.30 in the morning to 11 a.m.

00:15:09.780 So Nancy was alive and well then, saying we believe there may have been a, quote, suspicious

00:15:15.000 vehicle on Via Entrada around 10 a.m.

00:15:18.900 Again, this is, these are, they style it in this separate ring camera discussion group

00:15:26.160 as, quote, new timeline for Nancy video requests.

00:15:30.360 And they say it's from the sheriff.

00:15:32.020 Again, the sheriff says that's not from him, but there's definitely an actual post suggesting

00:15:37.240 that the locals believe they've been asked by the sheriff for those two dates in particular.

00:15:41.320 And we know for a fact they've been asked for all 30 days prior to and around the actual

00:15:46.540 disappearance.

00:15:47.020 I mean, they're, they're basically crowdsourcing the solution to this crime at this point,

00:15:52.560 Phil.

00:15:53.040 Yeah.

00:15:53.360 And it's, it, it tracks with, uh, maybe a neighbor and they've been talking to all the

00:15:59.840 neighbors.

00:16:00.160 It tracks with a neighbor saying to somebody, the sheriff for the FBI saying that on January

00:16:05.420 31st, there was maybe some suspicious vehicle in the area.

00:16:08.560 And so now that the sheriff has that information given by a neighbor, uh, the sheriff's trying

00:16:16.180 to identify, you know, that vehicle and determine if in fact it was, um, suspicious or if they

00:16:23.380 can rule it out.

00:16:23.940 But it seems like they're following up on specific leads that they are given by the people that

00:16:30.280 they are interviewing, which are the people in that area.

00:16:33.040 It's very smart because look at, look at the cases that we know about, you know, it's like

00:16:37.700 Kohlberger cased that home repeatedly before he committed the crime in question.

00:16:43.900 And also after we know he went back the morning that he committed the crime in Idaho, it was

00:16:49.760 four in the morning between four and four 20.

00:16:51.680 And he was back there by nine, nine 30 that next morning, you know, five hours after he

00:16:56.060 committed the murders to look at it.

00:16:58.300 Maybe he realized he left behind evidence.

00:17:00.560 And so the sheriff's smart to include the 36 hours after this crime for suspicious vehicles,

00:17:07.680 but the odds that this guy just did this cold and never once drove by the house are very small.

00:17:14.120 So this makes sense to me.

00:17:16.160 Uh, and hopefully some, some homeowner nearby has got it paid for the recording service on

00:17:22.060 the nest or the ring and he's got it.

00:17:23.640 Phil, thank you so much for traveling out to Tucson and all your good reporting this week.

00:17:27.640 Really appreciate it.

00:17:28.740 Oh, you bet.

00:17:29.560 Happy to be here anytime.

00:17:31.200 We'll be discussing this on MK.

00:17:34.460 Good.

00:17:35.140 Yes.

00:17:35.560 On MK true crime.

00:17:36.360 We will be tuning in for that.

00:17:39.760 Absolutely.

00:17:40.320 100%.

00:17:40.880 Please do.

00:17:41.480 And I know, um, heard, uh, Matt Murphy over on, uh, our friend.

00:17:46.160 Um, Ashley Banfield's podcast yesterday.

00:17:48.760 He's awesome too.

00:17:49.700 And part of MK true crime, but a lot of really smart, smart lawyers, former cops,

00:17:54.440 prosecutors, criminal defense attorneys discussing this case over there.

00:17:57.540 Uh, want to bring in our, our super duper panel, Jim Fitzgerald fits and Maureen O'Connell.

00:18:02.920 Uh, they, of course, as you know, by now have, uh, I think 50 years between them at the FBI

00:18:08.080 now, no longer with the FBI, but full of information.

00:18:11.320 Uh, and we're going to do that right after this break.

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00:20:13.840 We are remote from a lovely location where I'm supposed to be on a few days R&R, but that's

00:20:19.600 not what's happening because we have got to stay on this story and on the news for all

00:20:23.180 of you and doing overtime duty for us as they have been now for weeks, Jim Fitzgerald and

00:20:29.600 Maureen O'Connell, both of whom are 25 plus year veterans at the FBI.

00:20:34.600 So let me kick it off here with you guys.

00:20:37.180 This morning when I woke up in the wee hours to catch my flight, all over X was this other

00:20:44.380 new video.

00:20:45.560 And this other new video shows a man in an alley reportedly on February 1st.

00:20:52.800 Nancy was taken overnight from January 31st into February 1st, which was Sunday.

00:20:58.220 Shows a man in a back alley.

00:20:59.840 We're showing it now.

00:21:01.400 And he is wearing a backpack.

00:21:04.520 He's got another backpack in his hands.

00:21:06.220 He's got a gray jacket on.

00:21:07.820 The pants are sort of like blue pants, not jeans, but pants.

00:21:12.280 He is trying to, I can't even tell.

00:21:16.440 I mean, I'm going to ask you guys what you think, but I see him maybe trying to open a

00:21:19.820 gate or do something with the backpack, maybe push it over the gate.

00:21:24.940 I can't tell, but it doesn't seem to work because he then takes that second backpack back

00:21:30.640 down and walks back to where he came from.

00:21:35.140 And now TMZ is reporting that the FBI has got this video.

00:21:38.880 Of course, people are crediting TMZ with breaking this video, which is not correct.

00:21:42.860 It was all over X this morning.

00:21:45.060 And I think it was, hold on a second because I have it.

00:21:49.780 I'll find it.

00:21:50.460 It was an X like true crime solver who's been all over this case.

00:21:56.080 It was not TMZ.

00:21:57.280 In any event, I want to give him credit and I'll get that out of my packet in just one

00:22:00.400 second.

00:22:01.600 And so now there's a real question, guys, about whether that's our guy.

00:22:06.700 He, to me, I'll just kick it off.

00:22:08.620 He looks skinnier than I would have expected.

00:22:12.140 And I can't quite tell whether he has facial hair.

00:22:16.400 He might.

00:22:17.220 He doesn't have it all over his face, that's for sure.

00:22:19.480 But he might have it like in the front where we saw it in that mask.

00:22:24.100 And I can't tell whether those backpacks are identical or not.

00:22:27.420 But clearly the guy's, he loves backpacks.

00:22:29.340 And I don't know, he seems to be up to no good here in the middle of the night.

00:22:32.640 Not far.

00:22:33.480 This is about five miles away from Nancy Guthrie's house.

00:22:37.440 And it's on the night in question.

00:22:39.840 Uh, so, you know, that's, that's pretty telling.

00:22:43.640 Yeah, here's the guy.

00:22:44.440 His name is Nerdy Addict.

00:22:46.660 Nerdy Addict, who is a very good ex-follow.

00:22:48.820 And he is the one who posted this, uh, saying it was originally posted on the Ring Neighbors

00:22:53.720 app, which is full of information in the early morning hours of February 1st, five miles south

00:22:59.220 of Nancy's home.

00:23:01.320 And he did report that it had been submitted to the FBI.

00:23:04.060 Then Harvey Levin adds the FBI is taking it seriously.

00:23:07.100 So your thoughts on that, Maureen, I'll start with you.

00:23:09.840 First and foremost, we can expect the FBI's ERT team to be showing up at that location

00:23:15.100 to conduct a comprehensive search.

00:23:17.900 I think we can all agree on that.

00:23:19.840 Secondly, if he had, I agree, those jeans are looser than in the videos we have of the

00:23:26.980 actual offender on Nancy's front porch.

00:23:28.940 Let's call him the gunslinger.

00:23:30.460 So the gunslinger had on tighter jeans.

00:23:33.040 And he could have had, he could have had those skinny jeans on over these pants.

00:23:38.300 He now has two backpacks.

00:23:40.000 Whereas at Nancy's, he only had one.

00:23:42.260 Maybe the other one was in his vehicle, his getaway car or whatever.

00:23:45.460 But actually, when I'm looking at these pants now, they don't look that dissimilar.

00:23:49.300 For some reason, I thought they were a little bit more fitted.

00:23:52.220 Well, it could be the color too.

00:23:54.540 Yeah, well, the color, they're going to be able to do a color enhancement, the bureau

00:23:58.320 will, based on known colors at that location and how they're showing up on that nest camera

00:24:04.600 that Nancy had.

00:24:05.740 They're going to be able to do a little bit of something, not sure what.

00:24:08.580 But the, the, I think he has, this guy looks to have what I would say is a gun in his right

00:24:15.040 pocket.

00:24:15.580 If you watch the way that pocket moves to the guy approaching and there's, there's one

00:24:22.360 photo I actually did a still shot.

00:24:25.480 We're talking about double backpack man.

00:24:27.420 Double backpack man.

00:24:28.940 Yep.

00:24:29.440 Let's call him Pac-Man.

00:24:31.040 And no, I'm only kidding.

00:24:31.860 Whatever you want.

00:24:32.320 But if you look at, if you look at Pac-Man in this photo, when he's putting,

00:24:38.580 when he's putting something in the trash, wait, I'm going the wrong way.

00:24:44.900 What am I doing?

00:24:45.280 I'll go the other way.

00:24:46.160 Right there.

00:24:47.040 You had it.

00:24:47.800 Right there.

00:24:48.780 Right there.

00:24:49.680 When, if you watch this, when it's moving, you'll see the movement, you'll see the weight

00:24:53.920 of the gun, apparently, apparently at the bottom of that pocket.

00:24:57.660 And it's as if the gun is laying like, like laying in fully in that pocket.

00:25:03.200 See how you can see it?

00:25:03.840 Yeah, you can see this.

00:25:04.620 There's definitely something weighty in his right pocket.

00:25:06.880 Right.

00:25:07.140 He's also got something in his right pocket, like a phone or, and it looks like, I can't,

00:25:14.420 I can't see that much, but when I see that.

00:25:16.560 Let me, can I just say something quickly?

00:25:18.200 Look at his, forgive me.

00:25:19.340 Look at his rear end.

00:25:20.320 He looks kind of skinny.

00:25:21.780 Look at his legs.

00:25:23.180 Yes.

00:25:23.220 He looks kind of skinny.

00:25:24.360 And can we see our actual abductor video now?

00:25:27.800 Because he did not look skinny to me.

00:25:30.580 Now you did, you raised the point of maybe the guy, by the time he gets to Nancy's or when

00:25:34.260 this guy, look at this, don't you think this guy's rear end and legs are thicker than Pac-Man?

00:25:40.960 What do you think, Fitz?

00:25:43.440 Well, the FBI has had this for at least, you know, 24 hours or more.

00:25:47.980 I'm not sure exactly when it became available to them.

00:25:50.780 They have all kinds of technical enhancement capabilities that, of course, you know, we don't

00:25:54.900 have here, Megan, you may have some on your staff, but they're going to have as much as

00:25:58.740 they can to blow that thing up and look at it in every single step of the way.

00:26:03.480 Also, I'd want to make sure it's confirmed the time and the location.

00:26:07.460 We can't do anything about that, but we'll assume for now that the location and the time

00:26:11.860 is consistent with the Guthrie neighborhood and, of course, the night of the abduction.

00:26:18.860 So, yeah, there's a lot here.

00:26:19.900 I mean, we talked before in the last week or so, none of us really believe in coincidences,

00:26:24.800 certainly in terms of criminal activity, violent criminal activity, but this would be a coincidence

00:26:30.600 on steroids if, in fact, somehow it's not related.

00:26:35.540 So this guy absolutely positively has to be ruled out, identified.

00:26:41.040 If he's just some local yokel, you know, dumpster diving, looking for valuables or food or something,

00:26:47.640 he should come forward to save everybody a lot of aggravation.

00:26:50.920 But if he is, in fact, the abductor, or let's not rule out, you know, a partner of the abductor,

00:26:56.780 you know, switching backpacks and one carries a gun one time, one carries a gun the other,

00:27:01.720 and I'm not locking into two people for this part of it, but nonetheless, they have to identify this guy.

00:27:07.980 And if he's doing nothing wrong except prowling around some neighborhoods when he shouldn't,

00:27:12.500 the police would probably know of this guy, the sheriff's department.

00:27:15.240 If he's just a random guy that does this every once in a while, maybe homeless, lives under a cactus somewhere,

00:27:21.800 off the grid, they're going to know about this guy, and they're going to identify him.

00:27:25.500 And they're going to have now facial recognition, which this guy is going to be a lot better possibility

00:27:29.580 because you have his whole face.

00:27:31.040 He's going to be bald, some facial growth on his face.

00:27:34.080 They're going to do some work with that.

00:27:35.880 And I'm assuming this guy will be identified.

00:27:38.900 Let's hope he's tied in to, to solve this case,

00:27:41.880 let's hope he's tied in to the person at Nancy's house and we can really then start moving forward.

00:27:47.220 I mean, when you say it, it sounds so exactly right.

00:27:50.220 Think about, I mean, Maureen, what are the odds that there were two men wearing very similar clothing

00:27:57.420 with a backpack packed to the brink within five miles of Nancy Guthrie's house on the night

00:28:05.820 she was abducted, both of whom appear to have been carrying and appear to have been right-handed.

00:28:14.380 And this guy's, we think he's got the little facial hair.

00:28:18.040 He's got the big round head.

00:28:19.320 He also appears in one of the shots I looked to have stick out ears.

00:28:24.000 His hat, his head is perfectly round.

00:28:26.040 There's not a lot of hair.

00:28:27.340 You know, we talked about that, how you could see in the abductors video, his head looks perfectly round.

00:28:31.580 So he either didn't have like a bunch of hair that was mussing it up or maybe was bald.

00:28:37.140 Yeah, here you can kind of see it.

00:28:38.980 You can kind of see that his ear was more prominent on the right side.

00:28:42.520 So what are the odds of there being two of them on the night in question within five miles of each other

00:28:49.420 and within hours of one another?

00:28:51.560 Astronomical.

00:28:52.020 And then you have to ask yourself, why five miles away?

00:28:54.700 Is that where he lives?

00:28:56.040 Is that where they're keeping Nancy?

00:28:57.920 Because in that kidnapping case where I told you we recovered the child alive,

00:29:03.840 he had been staying at a home several miles away from the location he was taken from.

00:29:10.120 And he was being cared for by a family that was being paid to care for him

00:29:15.360 while all the negotiations were going on with the ransom.

00:29:22.300 So it's possible.

00:29:23.540 I mean, when you guys watch that video, do you have any idea what he's doing?

00:29:28.720 Like that's one of my questions is, what the hell is he doing with that backpack?

00:29:31.860 He's very focused on the one backpack and like trying to shove it over this fence or put it some,

00:29:36.140 I don't know what he's doing.

00:29:37.160 You tell me what you could glean from watching this.

00:29:40.480 Yeah, I've chased down burglars back in the day and bank burglars, residential burglars, others.

00:29:47.180 And, you know, some of them, like a good kidnapper, like a good abductor,

00:29:52.340 they're going to have a protocol set up and an MO, a modus operandi that gets them in the door and out the door.

00:29:58.640 They may have materials with them.

00:29:59.980 In the old days, you'd find a guy carrying a bunch of, you know, several pillowcases with them.

00:30:04.160 Well, guess what?

00:30:04.640 He's not looking to buy a pillow and take a nap.

00:30:06.780 He has that to put material inside there.

00:30:09.460 They may get the pillowcase from the house, quite frankly,

00:30:12.060 but they also could bring a trash bag or something.

00:30:13.920 So, yeah, both these guys seem to have, I kidded the other day on the air,

00:30:17.400 like almost like they're carrying parachutes.

00:30:19.720 Of course, it's not that, but they're stuffed to the brim,

00:30:23.220 some kind of canvas material, tarp, of course, tools we talked about the other day.

00:30:27.720 It looks like this is their kit.

00:30:30.260 Is it a burglar kit, abduction kit, rape, murder, kidnap?

00:30:34.260 We don't know, but it's a kit for criminal activity against a human being.

00:30:39.820 So what's in that kit is going to be very valuable.

00:30:42.080 Change of clothes, change of, you know, hoods that we don't see on this guy on this newer video.

00:30:47.520 And it's his kit to get him successfully to commit that crime.

00:30:51.600 And we get that kit and find out.

00:30:53.220 And this last guy we're just seeing, he has two different bags, it seems.

00:30:57.920 And the video from the offender at one point, and Megan, you pointed this out,

00:31:02.920 there's no bag in one of the pictures.

00:31:05.080 So are these things like interchangeable?

00:31:07.060 They put them down.

00:31:07.960 One has one purpose.

00:31:08.940 One has another when they're first casing the place.

00:31:12.280 You know, they don't have a bag at all to look suspicious in case someone sees them.

00:31:17.660 Fitz, that discussion that we had yesterday about this picture has been haunting me.

00:31:22.460 So for the listening audience, we're showing the picture of the abductor

00:31:25.800 right underneath the archway at Nancy's house where he's not wearing the backpack.

00:31:29.900 We don't see the gun and the whole face mask looks like he has it on backwards.

00:31:35.860 You can't see eyes.

00:31:36.960 You can't see a mouth.

00:31:38.060 Could just be the camera, not able to focus on him quite yet because he's not close enough.

00:31:43.260 But you can't see any of that.

00:31:45.440 And all I've been thinking about over the past night is that, what if that was,

00:31:54.180 and it seems like it would have to have been after the crime because I feel like we see him

00:32:01.000 arrive to commit the crime when he steps onto her property, he's got his flashlight in,

00:32:06.180 he's steps up on that little step.

00:32:08.560 He seems to know it's coming.

00:32:09.860 He's, he sees the nest cam.

00:32:11.900 He's like, okay, I got to deal with that.

00:32:13.160 He does the vegetation.

00:32:14.460 You know, I, if, if the shot of him without the backpack was recon, his recon wasn't very good.

00:32:20.660 Um, so this is, we're showing him now arriving with the head down and, uh, his little mouth cam,

00:32:27.640 my mouth flashlight going.

00:32:29.040 But my thought was simply, if that's him post crime without the backpack and without the gun,

00:32:36.300 and now we know Nancy's not in the house any longer, it doesn't, it's not good.

00:32:44.840 I mean, he, he should still need his gun.

00:32:46.880 He should still be afraid that Nancy's going to get out of that car and run,

00:32:51.060 that he's got a live person in his car.

00:32:54.800 Like there's no time.

00:32:55.740 I don't know.

00:32:56.620 Do you have any thoughts on whether that makes it more or less likely?

00:33:01.540 Like, should I have the opposite analysis?

00:33:04.600 No, that's got to be him scouting it out in advance because post crime, we know this person,

00:33:09.420 whoever it was, had Nancy.

00:33:11.380 Well, he's going to need the flashlight when he goes into the house.

00:33:14.260 The house is pitch dark.

00:33:15.380 You're not going to turn the lights on within the house because anyone driving by,

00:33:19.960 even though you can't see much, you would be able to see if the lights were on inside Nancy's house

00:33:24.960 at two o'clock in the morning.

00:33:26.240 And that would be concerning, especially if you're a friend that knows that her bedroom is all the

00:33:30.080 way in the back or wherever it is.

00:33:31.760 So he's got to have the flashlight when he's trying to go in.

00:33:35.740 He also has to have the flashlight when he's going up to try to check the doorknob,

00:33:39.800 because you'll notice that that video stops right before he would try to gain entry there.

00:33:45.380 I mean, what if this dude had a key and went in the front door?

00:33:49.000 We don't know because the video was stopped then.

00:33:51.400 Do we not have the video?

00:33:52.620 That's probably the video that law enforcement is holding back from this point.

00:33:56.960 They totally have it, Maureen, because they, they, we saw him deal with the camera.

00:34:03.060 I think, I feel like we know what he did with the camera.

00:34:05.180 Here, he settled on, I'm going to cover it with flowers, right?

00:34:09.600 He didn't appear to keep trying to get it off.

00:34:12.660 It appears, I don't know what happened next, but I think you're right.

00:34:15.820 I think law enforcement has probably got video of him either entering this front door or abandoning

00:34:23.180 it and going out that path and then winding up around the back.

00:34:28.120 Because the plan was to drag her out the front door.

00:34:31.340 That was the plan.

00:34:32.840 He couldn't get in the front door, or maybe he did with a key or something, but you're not going

00:34:36.720 to get past that burglar door and that really thick, wooden, Spanish-style front door that

00:34:42.280 they have.

00:34:43.300 I can't even look at a door like that without my hips hurting to this day, and Fitz will

00:34:47.300 tell you the same thing.

00:34:48.640 But the one in the back would be easy to break in.

00:34:52.500 It's a thinner door.

00:34:53.640 It's got nine small square panes of glass.

00:34:57.600 You can either punch a hole in, which someone did not do that, or you just boot the door down

00:35:02.000 or boot it in.

00:35:02.740 And I don't know why they're not answering the question, was this forced entry or was

00:35:09.280 it not forced entry?

00:35:10.300 But if it was forced entry, it had to be from the back.

00:35:13.400 Ashley Banfield is reporting that it was.

00:35:15.620 So far, all of what she reported in her big scoop on the Tuesday after Nancy went missing

00:35:20.420 has proven out.

00:35:21.740 She said they were Nest cameras.

00:35:24.220 Everybody else had just been assuming ring.

00:35:26.140 Guess what?

00:35:26.540 They turned out to be Nest cameras.

00:35:27.660 She said that there was a camera in the front and the back that we don't know for sure.

00:35:33.040 But I felt like the sheriff said they he referred to plural.

00:35:36.680 We don't have them.

00:35:37.660 So that seems to suggest he also hasn't denied most of her reporting.

00:35:43.540 Like he hasn't said the forced entry.

00:35:46.500 He said, I don't know where you got that from.

00:35:48.260 We didn't say that.

00:35:49.580 We didn't say that.

00:35:50.220 That's not that's not a denial.

00:35:52.400 So there could have been a forced entry.

00:35:53.820 Ashley did report it was a forced entry from the back door and that the back door was

00:35:57.480 left open.

00:35:59.420 And that's how the family found it when they showed up.

00:36:02.560 So TMZ is also reporting that something interesting about that timeline.

00:36:06.340 So it was 147 a.m. that the doorbell camera went offline, according to them.

00:36:12.820 But it was 212 a.m. that either some remnant of a camera or some different camera reported

00:36:19.660 an image of a person had appeared.

00:36:22.600 And the cop was sure to say the sheriff said it could have been actually an image of an

00:36:26.780 animal, but it detected something.

00:36:28.340 It detected an image at 212.

00:36:29.820 And we spent days confused about how is it detecting images of people or anything after

00:36:33.780 it was already disabled or disconnected at 147 a.m.

00:36:37.240 And they ultimately explained there was another camera.

00:36:41.520 Now, TMZ is reporting that it was at 212 a.m. that we are seeing the intruder video, that

00:36:47.840 that that video is from 212 a.m.

00:36:50.560 Now, we haven't independently confirmed that, but then I'm I'm more confused than ever.

00:36:55.140 Like, well, then what happened at 147?

00:36:57.740 The doorbell camera went offline.

00:37:00.880 And yet at 212, we see this.

00:37:04.040 So was it was it the back doorbell candle camera that went offline at 147?

00:37:08.520 And there he is at the two at 212.

00:37:10.400 Why wouldn't he just be in the back?

00:37:11.740 None of it makes sense.

00:37:12.660 And I guess it's not going to until law enforcement explains it to us.

00:37:16.640 Co-conspirator driver.

00:37:18.460 No, because he had the backpack on the guy in the in the intruder video had the backpack

00:37:22.620 on.

00:37:24.160 But they could have been using something like a Nextel, a walkie talkie.

00:37:28.380 That's the guy, the getaway driver and the kidnapper.

00:37:32.680 Yeah, and I don't want to give these one or more people too much more credit than they

00:37:38.260 deserve.

00:37:38.720 But I'm obviously the abduction part has been successful up to this point in time, although

00:37:43.540 obviously some mistakes now and I'm sure in this and a lack of professionalism in terms

00:37:49.980 of their overall activity.

00:37:51.560 But, Megan, yeah, this could be free offense.

00:37:54.520 We see the person walking up doing a quick reconnoiter without all the equipment on except

00:37:59.080 the mask, to be sure, and maybe even backwards, you could probably still see through it, depending

00:38:03.820 on what kind of ambient light is there.

00:38:06.060 I know there's not much.

00:38:07.180 And they're just looking around real quick.

00:38:08.820 Or also, it could have been after Nancy is safely in the car, she's restrained well enough,

00:38:15.100 perhaps being watched by someone else.

00:38:16.840 And this person, I've seen burglars, I've interviewed burglars after the fact that they would come

00:38:21.360 back to the scene if they've had even 10 minutes or 20 minutes in a residence for a business.

00:38:26.100 And they'd look around one more time, left no tools, left no gloves, you know, this is even

00:38:30.820 before DNA analysis when I was doing some of these, but they wanted to make sure they left nothing

00:38:36.240 behind at the scene.

00:38:37.460 So here, he could be coming up one more time, backpacks in the car, gun, everything else,

00:38:42.120 looks around, all right, it's good, let's get out of here.

00:38:45.020 That could explain, it really explains the beforehand, him walking up and afterwards

00:38:50.540 without the backpack.

00:38:52.820 Something else that happened is they found gloves.

00:38:59.020 Okay, we talked about that with Phil Holloway before you guys got here.

00:39:01.760 They found a pair of gloves.

00:39:03.720 And everybody says, okay, it's the desert, you're going to see gloves.

00:39:07.060 But it is kind of interesting that it's in exactly the right place.

00:39:11.440 It's, it's not too far away from Nancy's house and the gloves, they're not in the middle of like

00:39:18.700 an area people prune from the look of it.

00:39:21.640 It's like roadside.

00:39:23.280 It almost has the feel of somebody driving away and chucking things out the window.

00:39:29.140 And then sure enough, we know that the police went back.

00:39:31.840 They found these yesterday evening in the daylight hours, clearly, the sun had not set.

00:39:36.500 You can see that in the video because the New York Post happened to be traveling with them.

00:39:39.220 And they go back at 2.15 in the morning, not to that exact spot, guys, but not too far from there.

00:39:45.540 I'm just judging from the map my team made, maybe half an hour, half a mile farther south

00:39:51.180 to search in the darkness.

00:39:53.940 So what's that about?

00:39:57.060 I don't understand searching in the darkness.

00:39:59.080 And I've done, I've done a million of these searches, but Fitz, go ahead.

00:40:03.020 Now, all I was able to say, and Maureen, you've been on these kind of task forces.

00:40:06.160 At some point, they start working around the clock, and you have three different shifts,

00:40:11.120 maybe two different shifts, 12 hours each.

00:40:13.460 Some kind of a lead comes in at midnight.

00:40:15.220 A couple agents look at each other.

00:40:16.600 The boss says, yeah, sure, hey, go out.

00:40:18.620 And maybe just something as inconsequential as that.

00:40:22.500 I don't mean the evidence is inconsequential or what they found, but it could be, hey,

00:40:25.940 guys, we're just sitting here.

00:40:26.940 The calls aren't coming in at whatever time it is.

00:40:29.540 Let's go out with our flashlights, put up some floodlights maybe,

00:40:32.700 and search this particular area.

00:40:34.680 And I'm not sure if that's exactly when they found these gloves or they were looking

00:40:38.180 for something else at that point.

00:40:40.080 But, and there's also a reflective bag, as we noticed, Megan and Maureen,

00:40:45.520 and maybe just shining a flashlight across some of this wide, you know, depth and breadth

00:40:50.460 alongside these roadways.

00:40:52.300 You'd get a reflection that you wouldn't normally necessarily pick up in the daylight

00:40:56.520 with a backpack that may blend in with the flora, the vegetation, et cetera.

00:41:00.960 So I don't want to put too much into the time of night that the agents were out there,

00:41:06.560 except, hey, nothing else is happening.

00:41:08.320 I've covered my leads.

00:41:09.480 Let's go take a ride and look at some of these things.

00:41:11.420 And someone picks up what they're doing.

00:41:13.040 They also may want to avoid the media knowing what they're doing.

00:41:16.060 But of course, someone saw them.

00:41:17.500 And that's how that goes.

00:41:18.460 Yes, excellent point on the reflective material on that backpack, Fitz, because you, first

00:41:25.220 of all, that backpack, if it's gray, you're not even going to see it when you're out there

00:41:29.660 walking.

00:41:30.100 It's going to be really hard.

00:41:31.120 It's super bright sunlight, and everything is just those light camo colors, and that gray

00:41:36.500 backpack would fall right into it.

00:41:38.480 But with regard, if I could for a moment, on those gloves, I think the idea with the gloves

00:41:44.080 is just, I'm just so excited about this piece of evidence for a number of reasons.

00:41:48.460 Number one, it's going to have the guy's DNA on it.

00:41:50.940 There's no way it's not going to.

00:41:52.380 Secondly, if he put those gloves on while he was in his car before they got out to conduct

00:41:59.420 this crime that they committed, and they put their hand in the door handle to open it,

00:42:05.100 they could almost superimpose fingerprints that were on that door handle onto the glove and

00:42:12.480 then transfer them onto some surface within the property or on the doors or on that housing

00:42:20.260 of the mess camera.

00:42:22.440 Would that still be here all this time later, Maureen, 10, 11 days later?

00:42:26.460 Yes, absolutely.

00:42:28.000 Oh, wow.

00:42:28.500 Really?

00:42:28.860 You're confident?

00:42:30.280 Yeah.

00:42:31.420 Great.

00:42:31.880 Not to mention touch DNA.

00:42:34.860 Could he be that dumb to throw the things out the window?

00:42:38.280 Well, my guess was when I first heard it, he stopped to go to the bathroom, and he took

00:42:43.720 the gloves off and may have tried to put them in his pocket, and it was pitch black and he

00:42:47.880 didn't realize it, and they just fell to the ground while he was urinating.

00:42:52.040 Mm-hmm.

00:42:52.700 And at this point, you're not foreseeing the entire country bearing down on your crime and

00:42:58.260 the amount of searching and resources and 100 FBI agents or however many it is.

00:43:02.460 Because, you know, you're not thinking, like, this is a dumb move to leave these gloves here.

00:43:07.440 I'm off the crime scene, at least.

00:43:09.860 And before a big op, you always, either before or after, you want to go to the washroom, right,

00:43:14.280 Fitz?

00:43:15.280 Especially as a guy.

00:43:17.300 Yeah, that's absolutely true.

00:43:19.680 Or have the stuff in the bottle to clean your hands.

00:43:22.060 But, yeah, I mean, of course, maybe within a 20-foot radius of those gloves, pick up some

00:43:29.440 of the soil and look for any DNA material in there.

00:43:32.440 I mean, we could probably find animal DNA.

00:43:34.460 But also, and I think your earlier guest before us, Megan, suggested besides his own DNA on

00:43:40.020 it or fingerprints, we could also have the DNA of Nancy Guthrie.

00:43:44.660 And that would certainly tie the gloves in directly to the crime.

00:43:48.320 And what we have to hope here, too, is that perhaps this guy is in CODIS.

00:43:52.400 That's the national DNA database that they can run.

00:43:55.840 So if there is DNA found, they could possibly come up with a name, an address conceivably

00:44:02.400 right away.

00:44:03.320 But he has to be in there for some sort of prior crime that, in fact, the law permits his

00:44:08.740 DNA to be put in there, his write-up, so to speak.

00:44:12.520 So there's a lot that can come from those gloves.

00:44:14.980 It may come back to someone's DNA in CODIS who has nothing to do with the crime, and

00:44:20.520 we all have to be prepared for that.

00:44:22.360 But just like the guy, the other guy, double backpack guy, we're calling him, and these

00:44:26.400 gloves, they all have to be worked to their logical conclusion until investigators can absolutely

00:44:31.540 rule them out that they have nothing to do with Nancy's gloves.

00:44:34.060 Maureen, how long would it take to get the DNA test back on those gloves, which they found

00:44:38.120 yesterday afternoon, like around four or five in the evening?

00:44:40.520 The turnaround can be as fast as 24, 48 hours, especially with access to the FBI lab.

00:44:46.840 They've got a bunch of 10-pound brains there on scene, but they can also ship it right back,

00:44:53.140 have two agents jump on a flight and bring it right back to the lab.

00:44:56.720 So they're going to get it done very, very quickly.

00:45:00.840 It would also be a little bit of a bonus if they could find some of that crushed foliage

00:45:04.460 from the front porch with a little bit of blood from the guy's shoes right there next to

00:45:09.640 those gloves.

00:45:11.300 And keep in mind, you know, we've been discussing loosely in this past hour, like, did he have

00:45:15.460 an accomplice driving the car, watching Nancy, helping him with the disposal of some of the

00:45:20.620 materials?

00:45:21.940 Don't forget, Kash Patel did say on Hannity two nights ago, persons of interest.

00:45:27.280 We have persons, plural.

00:45:29.400 He's not dumb.

00:45:30.380 He understands to make it plural.

00:45:32.420 It means something then to just say we have a person, old Carlos.

00:45:36.520 So, you know, query who else he's looking at there.

00:45:41.060 By the way, on the Carlos thing, there was reporting that explained some of why they got

00:45:44.980 to him.

00:45:46.100 Nerdy Addict, Nerdy Addict, who was the one who posted that video of Pac-Man, he reported

00:45:51.820 that Carlos was detained based on cell phone usage data and traffic analysis, which would

00:45:58.320 make sense because Carlos said they didn't even interview me when they approached me.

00:46:05.020 They put cuffs on me.

00:46:07.180 I sat there for two hours.

00:46:08.300 They searched my home.

00:46:09.580 They took my phone.

00:46:10.520 They took my mother-in-law's phone.

00:46:12.000 They took my wife's phone.

00:46:12.780 They took my kid's phones.

00:46:14.000 And then they left.

00:46:15.540 And they battered their way into my house.

00:46:18.580 And they caused some damage.

00:46:19.700 My wrists hurt.

00:46:20.800 But he said they didn't even interview him.

00:46:24.000 And as you know, later, the FBI said his alibi checked out, reportedly said.

00:46:27.700 But so that would make some sense if they were going off of cell phone usage data and

00:46:32.960 traffic analysis.

00:46:33.960 We know he was a DoorDash delivery driver.

00:46:36.620 Maybe they spotted him.

00:46:38.440 Yeah, he was in the area.

00:46:39.380 He's going up and down that block.

00:46:40.900 He may have parked in the area behind him for a few minutes.

00:46:44.460 And they were...

00:46:45.400 Sorry about that.

00:46:46.840 No, I can hear you.

00:46:48.060 I got you.

00:46:48.460 You know, his movements must have been suspicious.

00:46:54.160 And then when they get their hands on his phone, they know easily within an hour where

00:46:59.740 he was on the night in question, during the hours in question, right?

00:47:03.540 That doesn't take the FBI long to run down.

00:47:06.440 Not at all.

00:47:07.280 And let me...

00:47:08.300 I'm sure there's a number of defense attorneys in the area reaching out to Carlos.

00:47:12.120 Yes.

00:47:12.440 We're going to sue the government for you.

00:47:14.200 And Megan, as a lawyer, you know this.

00:47:16.700 There's such a thing as known as exigent circumstances.

00:47:20.020 And I've learned that in a few different law enforcement academies.

00:47:22.500 I'm not a lawyer.

00:47:23.200 But it's very, very rare that that can actually come into play here.

00:47:26.780 And I think a kidnapped person who may be, you know, conceivably dying without medication

00:47:32.240 or heart, anything to do with her heart problem, those kind of factors can kick in where Miranda

00:47:38.700 warnings can be put aside and emergency searches can be done like having been done here.

00:47:44.980 They can still contest it in court later, even civilly with this guy.

00:47:48.900 But just so people don't think there's all kinds of rights being violated here.

00:47:52.960 Exigent circumstances is a legal term.

00:47:55.300 And that kind of covers the agent's investigative actions at this part.

00:48:01.740 He didn't always seem to be complaining.

00:48:02.880 I think he said basically, besides his wrist being a little sore or something, the agents

00:48:06.900 treated him okay.

00:48:07.840 But they had to do that.

00:48:09.080 They didn't rough him up.

00:48:10.000 They just put his handcuffs on him.

00:48:11.140 No, wait, I know Maureen's got to leave in a minute, but I want to ask a question first

00:48:15.100 about that tent.

00:48:16.280 So this morning for an hour, they put a tent out in front of Nancy's front door and did

00:48:20.640 some sort of analysis in there.

00:48:21.960 And they brought in some sort of, I don't know what it was called, but it was obviously

00:48:25.780 a video type of machine.

00:48:28.740 And let's see, I have it written down.

00:48:31.360 Ultra Studio 4K mini kit, professional capture and playback device designed for high-end video

00:48:36.260 workflows, connecting a computer like a laptop or a desktop to professional video equipment.

00:48:41.780 You can do editing, color grading, live production, broadcast, and other things.

00:48:45.020 They also had a large Pelican-style box labeled Video Forensics.

00:48:50.160 There's always a Pelican-style box, Megan.

00:48:52.640 Okay.

00:48:53.180 And what they said, what Michael Ruiz also reported was that they left carrying a diagram

00:48:57.640 with human heights.

00:49:00.660 So Maureen, you tell me what they were doing under that tent.

00:49:03.060 That's exactly what I thought it was going to be one of two things.

00:49:06.360 They were either mapping out the bloodstain better.

00:49:10.860 And the other option was they were going to determine exact, oh yeah, they're determining

00:49:14.920 exactly how tall this person is.

00:49:16.980 Oh, they can use it.

00:49:18.240 For the listening audience, they were showing an FBI agent, we think, carrying like a, it

00:49:22.960 almost looks like the kind of thing that you'd have your child stand up against in the doctor's

00:49:26.760 office to see how tall he is.

00:49:28.740 So using that, they can figure out how tall the perp was?

00:49:32.000 Yes, and they're going to look at the bricks on the wall.

00:49:35.660 They're going to look at the tiles on the ground, those satio tiles.

00:49:41.020 And they're going to check from the camera that the exact angle that the camera is at

00:49:46.460 and with the way the guy was hunching his head.

00:49:50.200 And I mean, they're going to be putting together a whole bunch of information and they're going

00:49:55.020 to determine exactly how tall this person was.

00:49:57.740 Well, here's what else is crazy.

00:49:58.620 So the New York Post is right now reporting that the other thing they did under that tent

00:50:02.280 was they took away the Nest camera bracket, you know, the cradle.

00:50:07.920 Guys, isn't it nuts that that was still sitting there?

00:50:11.400 I'm like, just look what my Jake Whitman did yesterday, you know, like mounting it and

00:50:17.140 trying to get the thing off of it.

00:50:18.500 And it's like, can we really have safely said there's nothing on that?

00:50:22.660 We should leave that sitting there.

00:50:23.960 I just feel like there's been a lot of questions about how this crime scene has been handled

00:50:28.160 before the FBI got on scene.

00:50:30.660 All I can say is if they it wouldn't have been that big of a deal if they didn't release the

00:50:35.080 house back to the family.

00:50:36.240 But they did release the house back to the family.

00:50:38.660 Not that they went in there and removed, you know, the bracket for the camera, whatever.

00:50:42.260 But still, they gave it back.

00:50:43.840 And now they're coming back again, crossing every T, dotting every I, even if it's almost

00:50:50.660 two weeks later.

00:50:52.280 Let's just say they're getting it done right, even if it's delayed.

00:50:55.480 And yeah.

00:50:56.020 Yeah.

00:50:56.680 Last question, Maureen, before you run.

00:50:58.300 Um, the, the visit to Annie and Tomas's house the other day, we discussed at two agents

00:51:04.440 or two, two, a lot, we think they were cops, went over.

00:51:07.240 They emerged holding a Whole Foods paper bag, not like an evidence bag that was plastic and

00:51:12.580 fancy.

00:51:13.360 They had on blue latex gloves when they walked out of the house.

00:51:16.560 They weren't in the house for too long.

00:51:18.080 And then they went and they got the mail out of the mailbox with the latex gloves on.

00:51:22.760 Could this have just been a lot of speculation about what they were doing again at Annie and

00:51:26.420 Tomas's.

00:51:26.820 But could this have just been the family's in a remote location and they're helping

00:51:30.620 him out?

00:51:31.180 Like she needed her sweater and she wanted her mail.

00:51:34.740 Right.

00:51:35.040 It could have been private security.

00:51:36.740 And the reason he's wearing gloves is because if there's something in that mailbox that ends

00:51:40.800 up being evidence, this guy doesn't want to have to cough up his DNA for exclusionary

00:51:45.600 purposes.

00:51:46.020 He's just said, Hey, I just reached in, grabbed it, put it in a bag and handed it to them.

00:51:50.560 So if there's anything on it, it's either the perpetrators or theirs or the mailman's.

00:51:55.420 Okay.

00:51:55.640 That makes sense.

00:51:56.340 That's because they, I watched those guys.

00:51:58.700 They did look like possibly military, possibly law enforcement experience, but they could

00:52:03.960 have also been private security, which is very common to hire after an incident like

00:52:09.680 this when you need all kinds of things.

00:52:12.700 I mean, we probably have security there, wherever the hell they're staying.

00:52:16.180 We know the family has hired security for both houses, I'm sure, because the media was just

00:52:20.780 everywhere, but has denied hiring a private investigator.

00:52:24.740 One guy who helped the feds out on the Brian Kohlberger case showed up at that tent today

00:52:28.780 outside of Nancy's house.

00:52:30.540 And there was some speculation earlier that this guy was a PI hired by the Guthries and

00:52:34.620 they denied hiring a PI.

00:52:36.380 And it later came out.

00:52:37.020 This is some stud who helped out in the Kohlberger investigation and now is helping out in this

00:52:42.400 one.

00:52:43.240 Maureen, I know you've got to go.

00:52:44.200 I won't take advantage of your very, very generous time with us.

00:52:47.740 Thank you.

00:52:48.260 And we'll talk to you soon.

00:52:49.540 Thank you.

00:52:49.940 So, Jim, we're going to pause here.

00:52:52.800 I think we're going to pause and we're going to bring in our friends from yesterday, James

00:52:57.620 and Will.

00:52:58.700 But first, we're going to take a quick break.

00:53:00.300 Lots more to go through.

00:53:01.680 Stand by.

00:53:02.140 We'll be right back.

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00:56:18.840 Hey everyone, it's me, Megan Kelly.

00:56:20.620 I've got some exciting news.

00:56:22.860 I now have my very own channel on SiriusXM.

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00:56:48.160 We're joined, as we were yesterday, by two others, James Hamilton, former FBI supervisory special agent and founder of the Hamilton Security Group, along with Will Geddes, elite bodyguard and security expert and founder of International Corporate Protection.

00:57:07.420 Gentlemen, a pleasure.

00:57:08.380 Thank you all so much for coming back.

00:57:10.520 Okay, a couple of things that I want to get to, including the evidence analysis that's going on right now of the abductor's outfit.

00:57:20.600 We've had so many smart armchair sleuths online on X doing their own searches for what is that backpack, because it's pretty distinctive.

00:57:33.200 What is that jacket he's wearing?

00:57:34.960 Because that, too, is kind of distinctive with this horizontal stripe, thin stripe right across the middle, and it may be fleece.

00:57:41.240 And it seems like people have figured out that that backpack may be an Ozark Trail Hiker backpack, that it is apparently—and then, by the way, the local reporter, KOLD's Mary Coleman, she's been reporting, and that's one of the organizations that received the alleged ransom note.

00:58:02.660 And she reported that, indeed, a law enforcement source close to the case says they are familiar with this brand of Ozark Trail Hiker, and they are looking into it.

00:58:10.540 They're looking into other brands as well, but they've got their eyes on this one.

00:58:13.420 And this was one that the online sleuths came up with almost immediately.

00:58:17.180 It's cheap.

00:58:18.500 They sell it at Walmart, including the Walmart in Tucson, the Tucson Walmart Superstore, where you can get it right now for $10.88.

00:58:25.940 So it's cheap.

00:58:28.600 It's $11.

00:58:29.260 And that dovetails pretty well with, I think, every one of your conclusions, which was this was not some super-trained hitman, high-budget operation.

00:58:41.760 The $11 backpack thing probably jives for you.

00:58:45.720 I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I'll start with you, James, on it.

00:58:48.200 Thoughts?

00:58:49.360 Great.

00:58:50.020 It's—you know, technology is wonderful.

00:58:52.180 I just feel for these agents, these officers who are getting—I read last count, like 4,000 leads in 24 hours because these, as you call them, sleuths are doing all this great work.

00:59:04.320 And, you know, it's awesome, but it's also—you know, that stuff's got to be worked, and it takes a while.

00:59:09.680 And there's not like an infinite stream of agents.

00:59:13.460 So it's wonderful, and I think it's great.

00:59:15.280 I agree with you.

00:59:16.000 An $11 backpack from Walmart would be completely in line with the Uncle Mike's crap holster this person was wearing.

00:59:22.500 So that all checks out.

00:59:24.840 But, again, these leads have to get run down.

00:59:27.480 And, you know, Fitz was talking earlier about 24-7 shifts.

00:59:30.400 Yeah, they're not sleeping.

00:59:31.680 I remember working these, you know, very few kidnappings I worked, but you didn't go home.

00:59:36.340 It was like all hands on deck until you found this victim.

00:59:40.260 But how do you do it, James?

00:59:41.240 Like, do you go into the Walmart and you say you carry these backpacks?

00:59:45.580 Yeah, we do.

00:59:47.360 Yeah.

00:59:48.140 That's exactly what happens.

00:59:49.600 But then what?

00:59:50.920 You ask for, you know, purchases.

00:59:53.080 You ask for purchase orders.

00:59:54.660 You get a subpoena.

00:59:55.660 You ask for how many of these backpacks were sold.

00:59:58.820 They have all that?

00:59:59.800 Oh, yeah.

00:59:59.980 Like a place like Walmart would have all of that recorded?

01:00:02.400 Yes.

01:00:02.640 And then you start looking, hopefully, you know, as we're going down the road of him

01:00:06.980 not being a pro would buy it in cash.

01:00:09.700 A pro would buy it with cash.

01:00:11.700 A pro would go to different stores, not buy all the material at the same store.

01:00:16.300 But, you know, an amateur would probably use a credit card.

01:00:19.720 And, you know, that would be a huge break for us if we could get a credit card and then

01:00:24.060 it's on.

01:00:25.240 Okay.

01:00:26.080 We did take a look just to see if at that same Tucson Walmart they were selling face masks.

01:00:30.880 And we determined that they are not available at that Tucson Walmart.

01:00:35.560 You'd have to get that online.

01:00:37.060 So for whatever it's worth.

01:00:38.440 And I don't know whether that was still the case three months ago or whenever.

01:00:42.620 But, I mean, it would be, do you think it would be relatively recent, Will, that they'd

01:00:46.040 be asking Walmart to search?

01:00:49.380 Because, like, if this guy bought this stuff five years ago, Walmart's not going to have

01:00:53.020 that.

01:00:54.480 Yes.

01:00:54.920 No, I mean, it really does depend on whether he'd had it already in his possession.

01:00:58.980 It was something that he'd been using.

01:01:00.580 But, again, that's where it's going to be, you know, on a day-to-day basis.

01:01:03.820 But that's where it's going to be kind of interesting, certainly when they start joining

01:01:07.080 up CCTV from neighbourhoods, from various other areas, and to see some sort of lifespan

01:01:12.520 of this individual.

01:01:14.340 Now they've hopefully got some sort of clear identification, certainly on what he was wearing,

01:01:19.960 that they can try and join all these pieces together.

01:01:22.320 You know, as James was saying, it's a jigsaw puzzle.

01:01:24.780 And I would concur that I think this is much more of a non-professional in terms of the

01:01:32.260 individual that's behind it.

01:01:34.140 Buying grey kit, i.e.

01:01:36.100 buying sort of very low-cost items, is not unknown for professionals.

01:01:41.220 Professionals will do that to try and evade detection or discovery.

01:01:44.940 However, the one area which James rose, which I think is really important, was the Uncle

01:01:50.560 Mike holster.

01:01:51.980 Now, if it was a professional, I think they would find it incredibly difficult to go into

01:01:57.140 an operation with a sort of nylon holster as basic as that.

01:02:02.540 Why?

01:02:03.000 Explain to those of us who don't know about the holsters why that's so basic and low-end.

01:02:07.920 Well, firstly, it was the positioning of the weapon, Megan.

01:02:11.680 You know, this weapon was overt.

01:02:13.420 It was not concealed.

01:02:15.660 And more often than not, you know, anybody who's used to carrying a firearm will be used

01:02:19.560 to concealed carry or certainly have sufficiently good quality holsters.

01:02:24.040 Because you only have to use, anybody who uses a firearm will know if you have a cheap

01:02:27.780 holster, that's going to wear out or it's going to let you down in some shape or form.

01:02:32.020 So, again, having that cheap holster indicates that this individual may not necessarily be

01:02:37.400 well-practiced or well-versed and have had a lifespan of using firearms.

01:02:41.960 Because more often than not, as much as you invest in the weapon, you're also investing

01:02:46.160 in the ancillary and auxiliary equipment that you use with it.

01:02:49.360 Okay.

01:02:50.080 So, pretty much everything about him looks cheap.

01:02:53.100 I mean, we looked it up and it was like the Luigi backpack that he used when he killed,

01:02:59.100 allegedly, the CEO of UnitedHealthcare, Brian Thompson.

01:03:02.620 It was like $300.

01:03:04.820 It was high end.

01:03:06.120 He came from a rich family.

01:03:07.960 And we're seeing so far what we believe is the opposite of that with clothing that didn't

01:03:12.040 look expensive, a backpack that you can get for $11.

01:03:14.740 The ski mask, for what it's worth, retails right now.

01:03:17.720 If you order it today, you can get it between February 20th and February 27th for $3.12.

01:03:23.760 So, that's another, you know, low-end item that he appears to have used.

01:03:27.340 And if this is the guy, I want to ask you guys for your thoughts on the new videotape

01:03:31.680 that may or may not be related.

01:03:33.380 But before you got here, we talked about how, like, even though there are some apparent

01:03:39.000 differences between the alley guy who's got two backpacks, we've been calling him Pac-Man,

01:03:43.300 Pac-Man, and the actual abductor, like, the actual abductor to us looks a little thicker

01:03:48.400 than Pac-Man, a little, like, fatter or just stockier in the legs and in the rear end in

01:03:55.620 particular.

01:03:55.980 But who knows?

01:03:56.960 Because abductor man could have had a few more layers on.

01:03:59.980 We don't know.

01:04:00.540 But we are told that this video of Pac-Man took place in the wee hours of the morning,

01:04:05.320 we believe, post the abduction of Nancy Guthrie, and that it happened five miles south of Nancy

01:04:14.580 Guthrie's home.

01:04:15.660 By the way, at least the guy who posted it on X, Nerdy Addict, described this as it was

01:04:21.660 submitted to him as a tip.

01:04:23.440 And the person did also submit it to the FBI.

01:04:25.560 And this person is shown trying, this is the description that he got, to unlock a side

01:04:30.860 gate, to unlock a side gate.

01:04:33.340 I guess I shouldn't say that it happened after Nancy.

01:04:35.780 They say it has no time stamp.

01:04:37.660 We just know, quote, early morning hours of February 1st, which is when she was stolen.

01:04:42.840 So your thoughts, you guys, on the odds of this being, like, another criminal potentially

01:04:49.380 in the area with the backpacks in a similar outfit.

01:04:53.360 And we thought we saw a possible weapon in his right-hand jacket, his zippered pocket.

01:05:02.180 Maureen was suggesting she thought she saw that.

01:05:04.320 Anyway, not confirmed, but a speculative possibility.

01:05:09.440 I thought I saw a time stamp.

01:05:11.260 Maybe you should play that video again.

01:05:12.980 But I thought I saw a time stamp in the bottom right, and it was saying 1.53 a.m.

01:05:17.200 on February the 1st.

01:05:18.500 Okay, we'll have to go back and look at that.

01:05:19.920 Well, if that's true, how can he possibly be in two places at one time?

01:05:23.980 It's hard to do.

01:05:25.300 Well, but it also assumes that the camera was set on the right time.

01:05:28.480 Correct.

01:05:29.040 And that's an excellent point.

01:05:30.880 And, you know, I've seen so many not set on the exact right time zone.

01:05:35.540 They didn't factor in leap year.

01:05:37.520 It could have been off, and that can easily explain it.

01:05:41.020 It's quite – that's quite a good lead, that someone needs to find out who that person

01:05:45.140 is, and he's definitely worth a really strong investigative interview.

01:05:49.960 I think Fitz wanted to comment, but I was laughing when Will was talking about the Uncle

01:05:55.560 Mike thing.

01:05:56.040 I just want to go back to the holster.

01:05:58.540 So we call it that because that's a very cheap holster that you would usually see like

01:06:03.660 a hunter purchase for a big revolver.

01:06:06.060 And that one right there, yeah, that's for a big revolver, like a six-inch, eight-inch

01:06:11.780 barrel, and what's happened here is they've stuck a semi-auto, smaller pistol into this

01:06:17.500 thing, and it's so haphazard.

01:06:20.140 It reminds me very much of like where I live, where a lot of people carry what we call open

01:06:24.080 carry, and it's like a cowboy.

01:06:26.220 Like it's insane, and it looks like that.

01:06:28.960 The pistol doesn't match the holster.

01:06:31.260 It's like total amateur hour, and you just kind of – well, most of us, we just kind

01:06:34.740 of laugh about it, and then I leave and get away from them because they're dangerous.

01:06:38.520 But yeah, that's why I was laughing at that.

01:06:40.140 Just FYI, James, my team is confirming, yes, it says 153 Mountain Standard Time on February

01:06:46.620 1st, 2026.

01:06:48.000 That's the timestamp on there.

01:06:49.500 And again, now I do not – I don't trust any of these times at this point, but the sheriff

01:06:55.340 said at 147 a.m., the Nest cameras were disconnected at Nancy's, and at 212 a.m., they alerted, image

01:07:05.420 detected.

01:07:06.420 And he said, you know, could have been a man, could have been an animal, 212.

01:07:09.820 Now, TMZ is reporting that it was 212 a.m. that the abductor tried to get in, as we saw,

01:07:16.420 or tried to cover up the Nest Cam and did all the stuff, the guy with the face mask.

01:07:21.500 That's 212 a.m.

01:07:22.920 I haven't confirmed that independently, but that's what TMZ is reporting, that that was

01:07:26.420 at 212.

01:07:26.840 This is 153 Mountain Standard Time, so I don't know.

01:07:32.660 Like, could you – if you take the 147 ring camera disconnected out of it, which I will

01:07:39.900 say for the record, my team, some of whom have Nest cameras have told me, whatever, rings

01:07:44.120 or Nest, that sometimes they go offline and you get that.

01:07:46.500 Sometimes the camera will say offline because, whatever, you have an internet hit, et cetera.

01:07:52.480 In any event, 153 to 212, what's that, 7, 12, 17 minutes.

01:08:00.480 I don't want to do the math.

01:08:02.820 It's 7 plus 12, which is –

01:08:05.760 19 minutes.

01:08:06.280 19.

01:08:07.000 Thank you.

01:08:07.620 Megan, can I tell you, on the task force wall, there's a big whiteboard, probably digital,

01:08:16.580 and they have the times exactly lined up what they are, and they've gone back to the ring

01:08:21.180 company or Nest, whatever, they know.

01:08:23.520 So we can speculate a lot, and this is healthy to do for us in trying to piece these items

01:08:28.460 together, but I'm assuming that the investigators themselves know exactly what this is.

01:08:34.100 And let me go back a couple minutes here.

01:08:37.620 In the Unabomb case, agents went out to every single junkyard in the country.

01:08:45.360 Now, think about that.

01:08:46.700 Trying to find the components of the devices, the IEDs, improvised explosive devices, the

01:08:52.240 bombs, the Unabomber was sending through the mail.

01:08:54.720 And some of these, certainly in rural areas, some guy just has his backyard, and that's a

01:08:59.320 junkyard.

01:08:59.760 But agents wound up tracking down every single – because a lot of people didn't know this,

01:09:04.460 but before he was called Unabomb or Unabomber, he was called the junkyard bomber because all

01:09:08.960 the devices were handmade or picked up from loose structures.

01:09:13.060 Then when the manifesto came in and the letters or the bombs were addressed to people, it took

01:09:19.920 them not too long to figure out all that information is coming from the Who's Who book in libraries.

01:09:25.460 This is pre-internet.

01:09:26.340 Remember, as a kid, the biggest book in the library was always Who Who, Who's Who.

01:09:30.660 You couldn't check it out.

01:09:31.760 It was just a reference manual.

01:09:33.380 FBI agents went to every single library in the country trying to get information.

01:09:39.100 Hey, who's coming in?

01:09:39.900 Who's looking at these?

01:09:40.640 Who's paging through them?

01:09:41.840 Looking – here's the composites, book, anything like this.

01:09:44.580 And interesting, a lot of the university libraries would not help at first.

01:09:49.260 But once a professor got bombed and seriously injured Yale University and other universities,

01:09:55.960 they said, oh, FBI, come on back.

01:09:57.320 We think we can help you now.

01:09:58.340 That's just a side story there.

01:10:00.200 But it just shows you – and that's pre-internet, and that just shows you they'll go in person

01:10:04.640 and do this.

01:10:05.520 And there are agents all over the country now fanning out, looking at these different places

01:10:09.620 where these are sold in an attempt to determine the providence of the mask, backpack, everything

01:10:14.860 we're talking about.

01:10:15.740 Right now, we get a report as we're talking, Fox News, FBI and the sheriff seeking to question

01:10:22.260 a man with backpack captured on video just miles from Nancy Guthrie's home on the night

01:10:25.680 she vanished.

01:10:27.580 They want to speak with the guy seen on the camera.

01:10:29.800 That makes perfect sense.

01:10:33.060 I think Maureen raised a good point, too, that is there any possibility they haven't already

01:10:38.400 gone to that location and searched for whatever was in that backpack, the actual backpack,

01:10:44.360 whatever remnants were there.

01:10:46.240 What if this – if the guy who broke the story, nerdy addict, if he's correct, that

01:10:51.960 the person is trying to unlock a side gate, that they've been through that side gate.

01:10:56.220 I mean, how long does it take to get a warrant?

01:10:57.860 I guess that's one of the relevant questions because, you know, getting the warrant is important

01:11:02.040 so that whatever evidence may or may not be there can be admitted later down the line.

01:11:05.800 But does it take a long time to get a warrant and get over there and get that searched while

01:11:10.380 you put out basically an APB for the man shown in the tape?

01:11:14.360 Well, you wouldn't need one in this case.

01:11:17.200 I mean, this is ostensibly a third-party residence that we don't have any information that this

01:11:24.480 guy owns that house because he would have been able to just walk through that gate.

01:11:27.560 So the people that own it, I mean, I can run over there with Fitz and say, hey, you know,

01:11:32.000 FBI, we need to talk to you about the Nancy Guthrie investigation.

01:11:35.860 And we have reason to believe this guy tried to, you know, get over your fence.

01:11:39.380 Do you mind if we look?

01:11:40.440 And they're going to say nine times out of 10, absolutely, you can look.

01:11:44.560 And that's called a consent search.

01:11:46.160 You know, now if they start to say, hell no, you can't.

01:11:48.900 Well, OK, we may have to use exigent circumstances, maybe stretch it or have to get a warrant.

01:11:54.860 We can hold it.

01:11:55.720 You know, we can secure that area and make sure nothing's tampered with until we go get

01:11:58.840 a warrant.

01:11:59.780 But my experience is, you know, because you're nice and they teach agents how to be nice and

01:12:04.320 talk to people.

01:12:04.940 You know, you can get consent from the homeowner.

01:12:07.440 That's not that difficult.

01:12:08.780 I will say just looking at it, even though this guy, Pac-Man, as we're calling him with

01:12:13.760 a double backpack, looks skinnier to me than the abductor.

01:12:18.120 One thing I will say is yesterday we talked about whether the abductor has some sort of

01:12:22.740 a limp or something wrong with his leg because his gait is a little weird.

01:12:29.440 It's a little stilted.

01:12:31.080 The way he goes down off of that step, it's like he almost doesn't bend his leg the way

01:12:36.340 a normal person would.

01:12:37.380 There.

01:12:37.540 Here it is right there.

01:12:39.580 That could just be because he's in the dark.

01:12:41.600 He doesn't know where the step is.

01:12:42.780 You know, I don't want to attribute too much to it.

01:12:44.160 But this guy seems to have also an odd gait.

01:12:48.080 There's got to be somebody at the FBI who does gait analysis, right?

01:12:53.180 We saw that with the pipe bombing, the pipe bomber where the blaze had a gait analysis

01:13:00.220 that told them it was a woman who had a connection with the federal government.

01:13:07.140 She then allegedly had an alibi showing that she was with her dogs, though, I don't know.

01:13:13.940 I still have questions about the pipe bomber case, if I'm totally honest.

01:13:17.160 In any event, they said that's not true and that the pipe bomber was this, you know, this

01:13:23.600 kid, this sort of autistic kid who lived in Maryland.

01:13:26.420 But they have somebody to analyze gait.

01:13:28.240 Do they not?

01:13:30.500 Yeah, they do, either in the FBI or they have experts on call to assist in that regard.

01:13:36.240 That's kind of a newer, I don't think that would be testimonial or evidentiary, but certainly

01:13:40.360 from an investigative perspective, that would be valuable to have, certainly to compare one

01:13:44.080 person's gait to another.

01:13:45.280 I know there's a lot of that, not just in the J-5 bomber case, certainly in the last

01:13:50.240 months or so before the arrest came, but certainly in the Brown University case, people are analyzing

01:13:55.860 the gait on that person.

01:13:57.620 And just to go back to the house where this double Pac-Man, one version we're calling him,

01:14:03.900 we haven't heard anything about the people who live in that house.

01:14:07.420 And is the address by chance-

01:14:09.640 And if it's even a house, right?

01:14:10.940 It looks like a back alley to like an apartment complex or some sort of-

01:14:14.040 Whatever it is.

01:14:14.860 And does the address, you know, somehow the numbers match up, you know, to-

01:14:20.000 Because look at him.

01:14:20.560 Look, Fitz, it looks like he's in a parking garage there.

01:14:23.120 Look, there's two cars we can see in the foreground.

01:14:25.680 There's cars in the background, multiple.

01:14:28.240 It looks like some sort of a parking complex or garage.

01:14:31.780 Yeah, I can't determine that.

01:14:35.320 People, I'm sure they know where it is right now, but obviously talk to everybody who lives

01:14:38.840 there and what is this person doing in that particular environment?

01:14:42.140 And that somehow the address or street even resemble a little bit, you know, Nancy Guthrie's.

01:14:46.960 I know it's five or so miles away, but could this be a wrong idea?

01:14:51.040 And let me tell you, I worked in 2001, the case of the Zantop professors from Dartmouth

01:14:57.840 University, murdered in their home, stabbed to death, a knife sheath coincidentally left

01:15:03.080 behind in that case too, which helped eventually arrest two teenagers from across the line in

01:15:09.140 Vermont.

01:15:09.840 But what they did, the two teenagers, a day or two before, they knocked on different neighbors'

01:15:15.500 doors to get in because they were pretending they were going to do some kind of a survey.

01:15:19.500 They had a clipboard back in the day, whatever, and to make it look official.

01:15:23.480 And they actually knocked on these doors.

01:15:25.080 Luckily, those neighbors said, not interested, not interested.

01:15:27.880 The Zantops being professors at Dartmouth, let them in.

01:15:30.640 And next thing you know, they get stabbed to death, both of them.

01:15:33.160 Different case.

01:15:33.940 I realize that.

01:15:35.480 And we may have a different guy here at this other location, but related to the guy at Guthrie

01:15:41.240 House.

01:15:41.780 So they could have practice runs.

01:15:44.260 They could have a wrong address.

01:15:45.640 They could be trying to get anywhere.

01:15:46.740 Now we're going to a territory.

01:15:51.280 Is this completely unrelated to anything we've been discussing here?

01:15:54.780 It could be.

01:15:55.480 With Savannah, with stalkers, everything else.

01:15:56.740 I have to say, the guy looks too skinny to me.

01:15:59.760 The rarest of the rare.

01:16:01.780 Can we just look at the, let's look at the abductor video one more time, team.

01:16:05.080 Let's put that back on the board.

01:16:06.020 Because the first thing I said about the actual abductor, not this, not Pac-Man, abductor

01:16:10.380 man.

01:16:11.200 Look, look at his rear end and his legs.

01:16:15.940 The guy on the right, to me, looks like he's got a good, I don't know, 25 pounds on Pac-Man.

01:16:23.740 He's not skinny.

01:16:24.980 That was actually one of the first things we agreed on about abductor.

01:16:28.960 But Pac-Man is kind of skinny.

01:16:31.460 You see it because he's lifting up his arms, trying to shove that backpack over that gate.

01:16:36.120 And his jacket lifts up.

01:16:38.000 And you can see his entire backside and his legs.

01:16:40.800 And he is a very skinny, not very skinny, but he's a skinny guy.

01:16:45.980 This guy, would you describe this guy as very skinny, abductor man?

01:16:49.180 No, no, I think, I think, I think abductor man is certainly a bit more chunky, a bit more

01:16:56.520 heavier set.

01:16:57.400 Pac-Man, I think, I think where it's really particularly useful, having identified Pac-Man

01:17:03.220 will be to inevitably look at any other neighbor's ring doorbells or CCTV to basically see what

01:17:09.980 direction he came from.

01:17:11.180 And did he come from a vehicle before he went up to that sort of that, that gate to the back

01:17:16.080 to put his stuff over?

01:17:17.400 And ultimately, at the end of the day, I think the key issue here is joining those two together.

01:17:24.920 If they were working together, then you're doubling up your potentials for discovery of

01:17:29.200 one or the other, which, I mean, I'm sure Fitz and James will be able to give you a great

01:17:33.140 deal more detail on.

01:17:34.240 But ultimately, the two, quite often you may find, particularly in amateurs, that they will

01:17:39.800 source their equipment from similar places, unless they already have it within their wardrobe.

01:17:44.860 Okay, so that's, that's very interesting.

01:17:47.400 Like, are those, are they distinct men and are they working together?

01:17:51.640 And do they just look similar because they're both low-end shoppers and this was not some

01:17:56.360 high-end caper and they probably, you know, I mean, in the way I wear and look like a lot

01:18:02.800 of the women I hang out with, so do they.

01:18:04.460 Go ahead, James.

01:18:04.960 I can see you want to get in.

01:18:05.720 Well, I was just smiling because I, you know, we don't like coincidences at all in our business.

01:18:10.680 And this is a hell of a coincidence that you've got two males walking around within five miles

01:18:15.820 of each other at 2 a.m. in the morning with backpacks and trying to enter or exit portals.

01:18:22.600 That's, that's a hell of a coincidence.

01:18:24.520 So for me, it's a great lead.

01:18:25.960 It's something that they have to run down.

01:18:28.820 Maybe it's not involved, you know, it's possible, but my money right now is it's not that I wouldn't

01:18:33.960 lean that way.

01:18:34.560 I would lean toward where the hell were you?

01:18:36.960 Do you know Nancy Guthrie?

01:18:38.340 Like everything, everything we got is going to go to find who this person is and do a really

01:18:42.860 strong interview and not create some story of, oh yeah, it's just a coincidence that he just

01:18:48.320 happens to also be out with a backpack.

01:18:50.860 And by the way, that second backpack, the way that he's holding it over that fence is bizarre.

01:18:56.740 It's, it's very strange the way he uses his left hand to, to put it up over the fence as if

01:19:02.360 there's something in it that he doesn't want to disrupt.

01:19:04.620 You'll see him do it here.

01:19:06.880 Why take the audience?

01:19:08.180 It's, it's on his left shoulder.

01:19:09.320 Now he took it off.

01:19:10.200 Now he's, he's got it in his left hand.

01:19:11.840 And it looks like he's trying to like shove it over to me.

01:19:15.800 I thought he was trying to like push it over and couldn't do it.

01:19:19.300 And, and he fails.

01:19:20.480 It's almost like, it almost looks like there's some sort of an imaginary wall there that he

01:19:24.920 didn't expect to be there.

01:19:26.020 And he really wanted to shove that backpack over, but he can't.

01:19:28.660 And he abandons it.

01:19:29.980 So he doesn't even look like he's using force, but it doesn't happen.

01:19:33.020 And he takes the backpack back and walks away with it.

01:19:36.200 Keep, keep going, James.

01:19:37.380 Well, almost like he had some type of device in there that he thought would unlock

01:19:41.760 it, it looks like he's trying to, you know, swipe it or, you know, have it over the other

01:19:46.500 side.

01:19:46.880 And it's going to somehow do something.

01:19:48.500 It's bizarre the way he does that.

01:19:50.560 So, you know, again, I'd like to find out who this individual is.

01:19:53.920 What are you doing?

01:19:55.340 You know, and just run it to the ground and, and don't, this is a good lead.

01:20:00.420 How long do you think it's going to take the FBI to figure out who this guy is?

01:20:03.420 Because unlike abductor man, he's not wearing a mask.

01:20:06.980 And we know this guy is in Tucson, or at least was.

01:20:11.800 And he too wasn't expecting to find his picture all over the internet today.

01:20:16.100 Well, I don't know if you and Fitz and Maureen talked about this earlier, but I'm shocked

01:20:19.920 that we're only talking 50,000 bucks right now.

01:20:22.700 I mean, that, that reward, that's a joke.

01:20:25.000 Really?

01:20:25.380 Amp it up?

01:20:26.280 Hell yeah.

01:20:26.800 $50,000, that's nothing, you know?

01:20:29.820 What should it be?

01:20:30.920 I'd put it up to half a million dollars.

01:20:32.720 It's 11, 12 days now.

01:20:34.700 I want this woman back.

01:20:36.280 What's 500 grand?

01:20:37.780 We got, we got that kind of money.

01:20:39.460 You know, I, I just, for me, let's get some, let's get some strong, strong interest to

01:20:44.220 identify these people.

01:20:45.200 And you're not worried that it's going to incentivize the crazies, you know, like.

01:20:48.340 I think they're incentivized already.

01:20:49.880 We're dropping Bitcoin money and all that's already happened.

01:20:53.240 Those horses have left the barn, as we say, where I come from.

01:20:57.420 That loser popped up again, too.

01:20:58.780 I'll get to him in a second.

01:20:59.580 I can see you want to get in fits.

01:21:00.560 Go ahead.

01:21:01.140 Yeah.

01:21:01.400 I just, there's been research done about rewards over the years.

01:21:05.520 Unabomber was 1 million, the highest reward ever.

01:21:08.380 Some of Bin Laden was 25 million.

01:21:11.660 Sometimes they work.

01:21:12.700 Sometimes they don't.

01:21:13.860 I always prefer when people come to me wanting to reward money, as opposed to some other issues

01:21:18.440 that sometimes they're just telling lies.

01:21:19.980 But I think context is important about this double Pac-Man guy for what we're calling

01:21:24.920 him.

01:21:25.580 I would really like to interview all the sheriffs that work, deputy sheriffs that work in that

01:21:29.820 area and see what kind of transient population.

01:21:33.120 He looks, he looks white.

01:21:35.180 I mean, he looks Caucasian.

01:21:36.460 It isn't like he's an immigrant across the border, 60 some miles away.

01:21:40.260 So there may be guys that roam around at night.

01:21:43.380 I used to, as a patrol officer, I'd shut my lights off, turn my engine off.

01:21:46.380 You'd be surprised the stuff that just happens around you and the odd people that show up.

01:21:51.860 And this is like in a suburb of Philadelphia, probably not that different from where this

01:21:55.520 area is.

01:21:56.240 So I'm not ruling this guy in or out.

01:21:58.920 And I said earlier, it's a coincidence on steroids.

01:22:01.920 If in fact, you know, within the same hour timeframe, we have two different things happening

01:22:07.260 with guys with backpacks about five miles apart.

01:22:10.180 We know the guy is the adductor.

01:22:12.240 He's guilty.

01:22:13.140 He did his crime.

01:22:13.940 I'll, I'll suspend all, uh, uh, you know, his rights to, uh, uh, being innocent here

01:22:18.500 because he did something there at that house.

01:22:20.520 Uh, this guy, we don't know his involvement.

01:22:22.900 And look at this.

01:22:24.060 Can we zero in a Pac-Man man?

01:22:26.440 Um, you really can see the facial hair more clearly in that shot that we're running right

01:22:32.400 now.

01:22:32.620 Maybe we can run again.

01:22:33.340 Look at the beard.

01:22:34.600 Yeah.

01:22:35.620 I mean, you can see it very clearly.

01:22:37.920 He's got a, he's got like the devil beard, not, not the beard.

01:22:40.820 That's like all over your cheeks, but like just down at the chin.

01:22:44.860 And you can't quite see what's happening above his lip or whether he's got the soul patch

01:22:48.760 there, but it is a black beard.

01:22:52.300 Um, so that's.

01:22:53.580 We'll count ourselves lucky that he chose not to wear a mask then or the mask or a mask,

01:22:58.560 even a, even a, a COVID type mask to cover himself.

01:23:01.740 So he's going to be identified.

01:23:03.160 That was the first question you asked.

01:23:04.720 That's only a matter of hours.

01:23:06.200 And if he doesn't come forward, because even if he's not part of this abduction, he certainly

01:23:11.780 looks like he's up to no good at two in the morning with the backpacks and the alley, like

01:23:15.960 that does not, whatever.

01:23:17.040 I mean, we're just presuming, but so if the guy doesn't come forward, um, that's even more

01:23:22.900 suspicious, right?

01:23:23.700 Like the FBI, when the FBI tracks him down, they're going to be even more suspicious of

01:23:28.340 him because he knows this guy knows by now that everybody's looking for him.

01:23:32.400 And why wouldn't you come forward?

01:23:34.080 It's if it's petty anti-crime and you know, they're looking at you for like a possible

01:23:38.060 murder, kidnapping.

01:23:39.240 I don't know.

01:23:39.700 What do you do?

01:23:41.120 Yeah.

01:23:41.460 The word is on the street.

01:23:42.700 Uh, and again, with the deputy sheriff, we don't care if you're looking to urinate or

01:23:46.720 defecate or, or smoke a joint, or, you know, even do a petty larceny, as you said, uh, we

01:23:51.380 want to know if you're involved in this thing.

01:23:52.660 So the word is going to get out.

01:23:54.380 If this is a local guy who roams the neighborhoods at night, I just don't know.

01:23:58.640 Is there again, a homeless encampment somewhere near there or a couple of guys that hang out

01:24:03.440 in a park somewhere?

01:24:04.280 We don't know that.

01:24:05.340 Or is it somehow tied into this thing?

01:24:07.780 I mean, probably every neighborhood in the country, probably around 2 AM, something was

01:24:12.080 happening that looks something like this.

01:24:14.840 The problem is five miles away within an hour of a, of a major, uh, of an abduction of

01:24:19.700 anyone, not to mention, uh, Nancy Guthrie that has to be taken to its logical conclusion.

01:24:25.040 This is their priority that's similar with the round head, with the beard, that's the

01:24:30.360 right color and in the right place.

01:24:31.700 Like the facial hair.

01:24:32.700 Yeah.

01:24:33.360 Um, I want to ask you guys about another development today.

01:24:36.480 Hesitate to even raise it because it's just, it seems such, such obvious BS, but okay, let's

01:24:42.820 talk about it.

01:24:43.940 You remember yesterday, we talked about the fact that TMZ had received a note, an email

01:24:50.540 from some third party saying, I'm not the kidnapper, but I know who it is.

01:24:57.700 And I want somebody to give me one Bitcoin, which is worth about 65, 67,000 bucks.

01:25:04.400 And I will tell you who the kidnapper is.

01:25:06.660 So that didn't happen.

01:25:08.880 Nobody gave him his Bitcoin.

01:25:10.640 And then today, TMZ this morning reported the following.

01:25:14.140 They've received a new email from a person who claims to know the identity of Nancy Guthrie's

01:25:18.140 kidnapper.

01:25:18.940 They received the email just after 8 a.m.

01:25:21.500 Pacific time Thursday.

01:25:23.460 Okay.

01:25:23.740 So 11 o'clock Eastern.

01:25:25.020 And the person who sent the email claimed they are, quote, not being taken seriously,

01:25:31.120 end quote.

01:25:31.960 And they're not happy about that.

01:25:33.400 They went on to say that, quote, he makes some ominous statements in the email.

01:25:37.880 TMZ is cooperating with law enforcement by not disclosing specifics.

01:25:41.140 One thing he makes clear, the situation has changed from Wednesday to Thursday.

01:25:46.660 TMZ goes on to say, quote, as for why he wants a Bitcoin, he says he will need money

01:25:52.120 to lay low after identifying the kidnapper for fear of retaliation.

01:25:56.900 He also worries he might be incriminated.

01:25:59.540 This is a quote, incriminated like that Carlos guy, meaning the delivery man who was detained

01:26:06.500 and released the other day.

01:26:07.540 The email reportedly ends with the sender saying this is their final attempt to, quote, help.

01:26:13.600 By the way, they did also report that TMZ monitored the account that he had linked to.

01:26:21.180 He did link to a Bitcoin account for his big deposit.

01:26:24.520 And they said nothing was deposited.

01:26:26.820 Nothing has been deposited thus far, at least as of the end of the day on Wednesday.

01:26:30.740 So now he's mad.

01:26:32.120 It didn't work.

01:26:33.520 Is this an obvious joke or what does the FBI do with this?

01:26:36.520 I just signed it to a new agent, but that's just me.

01:26:41.560 You know, the serious leads are going to be handled by the serious veteran agents and some

01:26:47.380 new agents going to go.

01:26:48.600 Oh, you mean like brand new to the FBI?

01:26:51.000 Yeah.

01:26:51.220 Go over there to TMZ and shag this thing.

01:26:54.040 I don't know.

01:26:54.840 I'm saying that with a little bit of tongue in cheek, but come on.

01:26:59.120 I mean, if the FBI, you know, ran out with everything they had, with everything like

01:27:04.460 that, then they wouldn't be able to really find Pac-Man, which is a much more credible

01:27:09.040 lead than this nonsense through TMZ for one Bitcoin.

01:27:13.300 And I assure you there are psychics and mediums, et cetera, getting in touch with the family

01:27:18.560 and even law enforcement.

01:27:19.600 And it's invariable when you work these kinds of cases saying, you know, they'll do it while

01:27:23.680 they would like some money you could possibly help.

01:27:25.640 They're also coming in free of charge.

01:27:27.180 I'm sure that the body is within 50 miles of a body of water or 25 miles of railroad

01:27:33.700 tracks.

01:27:34.580 And I'm just saying, I'm not saying Mrs. Guthrie is a body at this point, but that's

01:27:38.380 what kind of stuff they call in.

01:27:39.880 I've never had luck with a psychic in that regard.

01:27:42.720 So yeah, you just have to say, contact the FBI.

01:27:46.080 They'll give you at least $50,000 and they'll keep you anonymous.

01:27:49.600 This is a game being played locally, somewhere in the U.S. or somewhere overseas, possibly

01:27:56.540 even tied in to the other Bitcoin people and their scam that they tried to run earlier.

01:28:02.080 This is a federal offense.

01:28:03.780 I mean, I think this is obstruction of justice, what they're doing here.

01:28:06.360 They're distracting the FBI from solving an actual crime and purporting to have information

01:28:11.000 that they, we believe, do not have.

01:28:13.380 They're lying.

01:28:14.200 And if they told that lie to the face of an FBI agent, it would be another crime.

01:28:17.840 Go ahead, Will.

01:28:18.360 Well, I mean, I agree with the chaps.

01:28:20.640 I mean, I've dealt with a number of ransom demands and coming through various different

01:28:24.580 mediums.

01:28:25.340 And there's always this kind of small amount that is requested.

01:28:29.660 I know $65,000 doesn't sound like a small amount, but in relative terms, it's a very,

01:28:33.940 very small amount.

01:28:34.760 And if you have someone who is offering to basically say, well, I will give you all that

01:28:39.400 critical information.

01:28:40.200 I'll tell you where the hostage is, but is not able to provide any more substance or any

01:28:46.040 more gravity to that claim.

01:28:48.260 It is just white noise.

01:28:50.160 It's just interference.

01:28:51.260 And again, I agree with James entirely and fit that that's something which is batted off

01:28:55.860 to one side.

01:28:56.560 And there are many ways to trace it from an email account.

01:29:00.220 There are lots of very surreptitious ways that I may have allegedly utilized in the past

01:29:05.360 to try and identify the IP address and the actual user themselves.

01:29:08.760 But again, there's a lot of information like what sort of email account?

01:29:12.640 Is it a disposable one?

01:29:13.840 Is it a secure one?

01:29:15.340 You know, again, there's so much intelligence you can get just from those communications.

01:29:20.020 Are you at all surprised, Will, that they haven't caught whoever's behind those other

01:29:24.700 Bitcoin demands who is either pretending to be the kidnapper or possibly is the kidnapper?

01:29:29.600 Are you surprised?

01:29:30.440 Here we are 11 days in and they still haven't made an arrest there?

01:29:34.780 Well, again, they may not have made an arrest.

01:29:37.100 I mean, I certainly know that the authorities and most certainly the FBI will have the ability

01:29:42.060 to reverse engineer blockchain.

01:29:44.340 You know, blockchain used to be a very, very secure way of people being able to utilize

01:29:48.820 obviously the exchange of Bitcoins.

01:29:51.060 And it was used very much by the dark web and it was used by various sort of illicit and

01:29:55.860 criminal enterprises.

01:29:57.040 But nowadays, you can actually reverse engineer and trace back who is the actual wallet owner.

01:30:03.000 So there's a good chance.

01:30:04.460 I mean, the chaps will probably be able to give you a better grasp on this.

01:30:07.920 But in my estimation, they probably may have arrested them.

01:30:11.460 Or they're observing them to see whether they have any further intelligence value.

01:30:16.240 Oh, well, that would be very good news.

01:30:18.140 I will say this.

01:30:19.220 My team is reminding me that TMZ has been getting all of these communications via an anonymous

01:30:23.880 tip form.

01:30:25.820 And that's what the other two news organizations, that's how I think why they were chosen too,

01:30:30.640 because, well, they're local.

01:30:31.940 And they had anonymous tip lines too.

01:30:35.060 That's how this person has been going in.

01:30:36.660 So, like, not through a traditional email exactly.

01:30:41.280 I don't know.

01:30:41.760 Maybe that makes it tougher.

01:30:42.880 And if so, that person has some level of sophistication.

01:30:47.580 You know, the Bitcoin person, the one who's asking for the money in USD.

01:30:52.180 Yeah, maybe.

01:30:52.920 But I mean, I've not often – sorry, chaps.

01:30:55.200 I'll just quickly end on this one.

01:30:56.620 But I know of enough organizations that have anonymous lines, whether it be for whistleblowing

01:31:02.060 or otherwise, that aren't necessarily as anonymous as one might imagine.

01:31:05.820 Not like when the feds are involved.

01:31:07.800 Okay, we'll do Fitz and then James.

01:31:09.340 Go ahead.

01:31:10.800 If I can add here sort of a public statement to everyone who's listening, if you have information

01:31:16.120 about this case, we've seen enough of abduction men.

01:31:19.860 You have nothing to worry about.

01:31:21.540 I guarantee you you're going to be safe.

01:31:23.180 This is not some worldwide syndicate involved in this.

01:31:26.400 This is not even, you know, organized crime.

01:31:29.420 This is someone that if you have information, you know, call it, get away if you have to,

01:31:34.060 move out of a house for a few days.

01:31:35.760 This will not come back to harm you.

01:31:37.720 This guy is an opportunist.

01:31:39.680 Some pre-planning involved, perhaps.

01:31:41.900 Not a whole lot I think we're learning here.

01:31:43.700 But this guy, besides what he did to Mrs. Guthrie, and hopefully she's still with us.

01:31:50.380 I'm still keeping a positive outlook there.

01:31:52.840 But this guy is probably more of a menace to himself than anything else.

01:31:57.340 Certainly any potential witnesses out there.

01:31:59.220 So please contact the FBI.

01:32:01.040 I put out some pointers yesterday with you, Megan, behavioral characteristics of what this

01:32:05.480 guy's doing now.

01:32:06.640 Please check those out.

01:32:07.600 And that's what he's doing.

01:32:09.560 That's what he's not doing.

01:32:10.720 And this is going to be who he is.

01:32:13.020 Go ahead, James.

01:32:14.560 Oh, I just I maybe shouldn't smile as much as I am, but it reminds me a lot of, you know,

01:32:20.020 D.B. Cooper and Jimmy Hoffa.

01:32:21.700 I mean, as an FBI agent, we probably didn't go a month without somebody coming forward and

01:32:26.800 saying, you know, I know who D.B. Cooper was.

01:32:28.980 I know who he really was.

01:32:30.480 Or I know exactly where Jimmy Hoffa is buried.

01:32:32.700 And if you give me X, you know, I'll tell you, well, it never happened, you know, and

01:32:38.360 just I'm just smiling about it because these cases bring out those types of people and

01:32:42.880 those types of allegations, you know.

01:32:44.920 I have to end it on this because there's a lot of speculation online and we've got a

01:32:48.800 lot of emails about this, about the pacemaker.

01:32:52.400 Because, you know, they keep going back to Annie and Tomas's house.

01:32:56.040 And that could be because Annie and Tomas are suspects or it could be because Nancy was

01:33:03.120 there earlier the evening that she disappeared and they think there's more clues somehow to

01:33:07.800 glean.

01:33:09.060 Many people have wondered, is it possible that they think she died there, that Nancy was

01:33:15.780 killed earlier than we think and that she died there?

01:33:20.180 Now, I think that fell apart when we saw Abductor Man ringing the doorbell or messing with the

01:33:26.620 doorbell.

01:33:27.080 Like, the story that an abductor showed up is not fake.

01:33:30.640 And I don't believe, I just don't believe there's any way she was killed earlier in the

01:33:36.520 evening because, I mean, you guys tell me what you know, the pacemaker, the pacemaker would

01:33:43.980 have shown an event.

01:33:45.520 And a lot of people have been writing in saying, the pacemaker doesn't stop just because the

01:33:50.840 person's killed.

01:33:52.200 Well, I know that.

01:33:53.120 I know that.

01:33:53.640 Which is why there's some remote chance that if you took her phone and turned on the pacemaker

01:33:58.620 app and started walking around Tucson, you could, you might actually connect with the

01:34:02.540 pacemaker even if Nancy is no longer with us.

01:34:05.660 I mean, the odds are slim.

01:34:06.540 You have to be, I've heard any place from 10 feet to 30 feet in order for them to sink.

01:34:11.460 But I'm not saying that the pacemaker, it's not about whether the pacemaker goes dormant

01:34:17.040 when the person has died.

01:34:19.360 But I have yet to find a cardiologist or anesthesiologist to tell me anything other than if the heart has

01:34:28.500 any sort of a major event, including that it stops beating, that it wouldn't communicate

01:34:35.620 that to the phone.

01:34:37.580 So obviously there'd be no communication after 2.28 on the night she went missing because

01:34:42.720 they had stopped sinking.

01:34:44.820 But prior to that point, we're told by law enforcement, they were sinking.

01:34:48.920 There was no problem with the pacemaker sinking with the phone.

01:34:52.300 And so even with a delay in download information, you know, like if the last information went

01:34:58.140 at 2.27, it might take an hour or two for it to actually download that onto the phone because

01:35:03.260 I guess there's some sort of a lag in the delay, you would know if the heart had stopped

01:35:08.960 beating, if this patient's heart completely stopped.

01:35:12.860 I just can't get past that.

01:35:14.340 And clearly law enforcement agrees with me or this whole thing is a wild goose chase.

01:35:20.080 If that sheriff, and I'm sure he spoke to the pacemaker doctor, to the cardiologist, and

01:35:27.000 knows exactly how it works in this case.

01:35:28.840 There is no way the FBI would be putting us through all of this if they really had reason

01:35:34.000 to believe she died, that Nancy's no longer with us.

01:35:39.740 Why would he be saying, I have to believe she's alive, that she's still out there, and

01:35:43.260 talking with the family about doing the hostage videos and all that?

01:35:46.140 Like, you guys just tell me once and for all, do you have any reason to believe that law

01:35:50.520 enforcement thinks she died prior to 2.28 a.m.?

01:35:57.680 I see no indications of law enforcement believing that.

01:36:03.160 I agree with Fitz.

01:36:05.740 Yeah, likewise.

01:36:07.940 I mean, that, so what that answers for me is, A, Nancy Guthrie had the scare of her life

01:36:13.260 when that man showed up in her bedroom in the wee hours of that morning, and B, the reason

01:36:20.260 they are going back to Annie's and Tommaso's house all the time, I think, is they're wondering

01:36:27.820 if they had anything to do with it.

01:36:29.060 I just don't, like, I don't understand why you'd be interviewing the neighbors over and

01:36:32.340 over and over.

01:36:32.980 And Phil Holloway, who's out there for us, we didn't get to this in his hit, but he's

01:36:37.600 been talking to the neighbors, and the neighbors told him that they keep getting asked about

01:36:43.020 Annie and Tommaso, and what are they like, you know, that this is what the FBI and the

01:36:49.620 sheriff's deputies are asking the neighbors, and he also mentioned, for what it's worth,

01:36:53.860 that they're very interested in, like, a phone.

01:36:57.120 Have they seen evidence of any phone anywhere, you know, maybe they're looking for evidence

01:37:02.040 of, you know, that the guy may have dropped, et cetera.

01:37:04.180 Anyway, I don't mean to condemn them, but I just think, like, that's them doing their

01:37:08.920 shoe-leather FBI work, is it not?

01:37:11.600 Like, we've talked about family, friends, associates, neighbors, whatever, and there's

01:37:18.680 no reason to be asking the neighbors what these two are like, going back there time and time

01:37:22.200 again if you're not potentially interested in them.

01:37:24.580 Yeah.

01:37:25.360 I mean, there's one question that's sort of been raised in the back of my mind, Megan,

01:37:30.100 which, again, I'd be interested in the other chaps and what they have to say.

01:37:34.660 Is whether there's, the network has been contacted, the cellular network, to actually

01:37:39.500 do the mapping from the cell towers near to, obviously, Nancy's house, and also to the

01:37:45.120 sister's house, to determine, obviously, the IMEIs of whichever cell phones were in the

01:37:49.780 area at that particular time.

01:37:51.880 And I know, certainly, in terms of geolocation, you can get it down to 50 feet if, obviously,

01:37:57.100 there are sufficient cell towers in the area.

01:37:59.000 So we're not looking at enormous amounts of space, but you can isolate it.

01:38:02.860 And the intelligence agencies over here in the UK, for example, have used that very efficiently

01:38:07.600 to detect terrorists, for example, who have been using burner cells, but they've got their

01:38:12.080 own cells with them when they've been detected, obviously, going off and making those calls

01:38:16.720 rather than leaving their own cell phones behind.

01:38:19.080 So I'd be interested to see what cell phone data has been gathered by, obviously, the Bureau

01:38:25.080 and what information is isolating it.

01:38:27.920 Maybe certain recognized cell phones have been identified, or the IMEIs.

01:38:34.260 Go ahead, Fitz.

01:38:35.600 Megan, if we've discussed this before, I forget.

01:38:39.700 How many children does Annie and Tommaso have, and how old are they?

01:38:45.040 I don't remember.

01:38:47.180 I don't know the answer to that.

01:38:48.600 They would be a valuable source of information.

01:38:52.040 And depending on their age, there are experts within the FBI, and they certainly contract

01:38:56.340 with people that have expertise in interviewing children.

01:39:01.960 Now, it'd be very interesting if they would permit their children to be independently interviewed

01:39:06.120 by professions.

01:39:08.060 And again, I'm not casting excursions here.

01:39:10.140 I don't know.

01:39:10.800 But just to get every single bit of this story lined up, what did you hear mommy say, daddy

01:39:15.860 say, grandmom?

01:39:17.160 How was it that night?

01:39:18.280 So they would be, we don't bring, we haven't heard anything about that.

01:39:21.380 At least I haven't.

01:39:22.520 But I would certainly want to know.

01:39:24.060 I would certainly want to know if they've been interviewed.

01:39:26.440 And I would, they would be, the investigators would have been a remiss if they haven't taken

01:39:31.520 them apart.

01:39:32.400 It was interesting in the Ramsey case, JonBenet Ramsey, they wouldn't let him be, Burke be interviewed

01:39:37.080 for months and months at a time.

01:39:38.740 And finally, they did, you know, accede to it.

01:39:41.960 So I'm assuming this will be different.

01:39:44.860 But I would like to know what those kids have to say.

01:39:46.800 And as I said earlier on, as a young police officer working homicide cases, well before

01:39:51.540 the internet, you learn so much about people with extended family, friends, neighbors, workmates,

01:39:57.980 schoolmates.

01:39:58.980 There's just so much there.

01:40:00.560 Doesn't mean anyone's guilty of a crime.

01:40:02.300 But did someone have an affair and not admit to it?

01:40:05.060 Do they have someone on the side, a boy or a girlfriend, and they don't want to, they

01:40:09.220 lie about that at first.

01:40:10.480 Well, why did you lie?

01:40:11.640 Well, I don't want my wife finding out.

01:40:13.140 Don't want my husband finding out.

01:40:14.560 I'm not saying that's what happened here with Annie and Tommaso.

01:40:16.900 But there's going to be some things uncomfortable for them to admit that they're going to have

01:40:20.520 to.

01:40:21.360 Agents have to look that down.

01:40:22.580 Doesn't mean they were involved in the death of their mother or mother-in-law.

01:40:26.040 But there's a lot that we're not hearing about this.

01:40:28.580 And the kids may know something.

01:40:29.580 The Parade Magazine reports that they have one son together, but we don't know how old

01:40:37.200 he is.

01:40:37.900 I think they only got married 2006.

01:40:41.640 I think they got married in 2006.

01:40:43.720 So I suppose if you assume they didn't have children until they got married, he's no more

01:40:48.560 than 20 years old.

01:40:49.420 He could be younger than that.

01:40:50.360 I don't know.

01:40:51.060 There's been precious little information about who else is living in that house or even really

01:40:55.080 about them.

01:40:55.980 There's really not much information at all about them.

01:40:58.540 She's a poet.

01:40:59.780 He's a part-time middle school teacher and a band member.

01:41:04.980 They don't have a lot of money.

01:41:06.920 I mean, that's got to be clear.

01:41:08.600 Everybody knows a poet and a part-time middle school teacher are not rich.

01:41:12.160 They live in a nice house, but I think it could be one of those situations where it's

01:41:15.000 just appreciated because it's worth in the mid $600,000 range.

01:41:19.620 I don't know how they're supporting themselves.

01:41:21.260 I mean, I think very few poets are, you know, Joseph Massey is the official poet of the

01:41:26.620 Megyn Kelly show.

01:41:27.260 He's constantly writing about how difficult it is to pay your bills as a poet.

01:41:32.560 So I don't think it's a lucrative profession.

01:41:34.960 I'm sure they're looking at their finances.

01:41:36.340 And the dynamics of a sibling who's a multimillionaire.

01:41:41.020 Again, no one's accusing them of anything.

01:41:45.160 And sometimes that caused problems in the family.

01:41:48.740 It's possible.

01:41:49.800 Well, you'd be talking about it.

01:41:50.840 I mean, I guess that's really what we're getting to as you guys as agents.

01:41:54.820 Wouldn't that be a part of the discussion?

01:41:57.520 You got the one sister who has no money and you got the other one who's got tens of millions

01:42:03.320 of dollars and the one sister's doing all the hard labor with the mom and the other sister's

01:42:09.660 not.

01:42:10.400 And maybe there's resentment there.

01:42:12.340 You know, they don't, they're not telegraphing that.

01:42:14.600 They're telegraphing closeness.

01:42:15.880 But I mean, I've told you this before.

01:42:17.520 I've told the audience before.

01:42:18.540 Everything you see telegraphed from the Today Show about how close everybody is, is a lie.

01:42:23.700 It is a lie.

01:42:24.580 Trust me.

01:42:25.340 They are about building images over there to sell ads.

01:42:29.240 I mean, that's truly what it is.

01:42:30.600 I was there.

01:42:31.580 I was on the inside.

01:42:32.800 I was asked to be part of this.

01:42:35.400 So you can't go by what you see in like the family reels about how tight everybody is.

01:42:40.400 That's bullshit TV, fake stuff.

01:42:42.920 So we don't know what's what.

01:42:44.100 But I can see that dynamic potentially causing some resentment.

01:42:48.340 And I'm sure you tell me, James, you take it.

01:42:50.560 Like, would that be something the FBI is kicking around and then looking into?

01:42:55.500 Yeah, I think, first of all, I will come back to Will's point in a second.

01:42:59.380 But let's let's key in on where you were, Megan, talking about motive.

01:43:03.100 You know, we always kind of start there.

01:43:04.740 You know, who who has motive?

01:43:06.440 Who would want this individual hurt?

01:43:08.960 And invariably, you look at the family.

01:43:11.600 Invariably, you look at, you know, who saw them last.

01:43:14.120 In this case, the family.

01:43:15.480 And then you just mentioned a lot of dynamics that add even more intrigue to the family.

01:43:21.580 And so certainly that's a line.

01:43:23.660 But just as you're saying that, I guess, the Today Show is not all as rosy as it appears.

01:43:29.680 You know, that happens also in these big cases.

01:43:32.500 OK, so they're going to go and have press conferences and they're going to use words like partners and the FBI and our partners.

01:43:38.160 And that's all fine. But at the end of the day, someone is behind the scenes actually, you know, driving case strategy.

01:43:47.020 And hopefully that is a symbiotic relationship right now and not disperse where the sheriff's office is doing one thing.

01:43:54.000 The FBI is doing one thing.

01:43:55.220 Maybe the state police is doing one thing.

01:43:56.680 That's a recipe for disaster.

01:43:59.120 So you need to have some consistency with regards to the strategy.

01:44:02.800 And certainly, you know, if I was running it, you'd have a group of investigators who are OK.

01:44:08.000 You have the family.

01:44:09.580 All right. Then you have another group of investigators who are handling these crazy ass leads that are coming in about, you know, the TMZ, whatever.

01:44:16.160 Right. You got that.

01:44:16.960 And then you got a bucket of investigators who are going out looking for a black glove on the side of the road.

01:44:21.640 Right. But somebody's got it behind me.

01:44:24.100 Yeah. Somebody behind all that is driving case strategy.

01:44:27.860 Right. And so that what we're doing is we're not spending so much.

01:44:30.640 And I've seen this happen.

01:44:31.680 And Fisk might have seen this, too, where the agents are really working on a certain credible lead.

01:44:37.180 And then you find that the head shed, in our case, the SAC and the ASAC are running their own, you know, part of the investigation and doing interviews you don't even know about.

01:44:46.460 And that happened to me on a big case we were working in.

01:44:49.080 That's frustrating as hell.

01:44:50.220 But, yeah, certainly those things you mentioned are being looked at with regards to families.

01:44:56.060 That's just how it is.

01:44:57.100 I mean, John Van A. Ramsey is a great example.

01:44:59.200 And dovetailing that where Will is going, yes, with the cell phones and, yes, the FBI has their own unit that just does those types of things.

01:45:07.120 That's really all I'm going to really say about it.

01:45:08.980 But I will say, knowing that technology, I am concerned that here we are 12 days later and we don't have her body.

01:45:15.900 That makes me very nervous because, you know, I've been involved in cases where we never got her back.

01:45:22.540 You know, I can name one right now, you know, in South Carolina that we never got her back.

01:45:26.860 And we think we know who did it.

01:45:28.000 But that's what makes me nervous is I really would hope we'd have a break by now and something.

01:45:34.460 But, yeah, I think keeping on the I mean, Megan, another thing which was crossing my mind, and again, I'd be interested, obviously, in everybody's thoughts on this, is that I certainly know of a number of people who have pacemakers and who are in a fairly volatile or certainly delicate disposition.

01:45:52.120 And the sister being so close and certainly being involved in trying to assist, obviously, and provide support to Nancy, that they that maybe Nancy, did she have an emergency response tag, which she can press in the event that she may be having a heart attack or is in distress or falls over, like a lot of seniors will have.

01:46:12.460 And whether that they had that technology and and whether that was utilized.

01:46:17.940 That's a good question.

01:46:18.920 I don't know. I haven't heard anything about the emergency response necklace.

01:46:22.680 And it's a good question, though, because that'd be your first move if somebody came into your bedroom in the middle of the night.

01:46:28.260 They haven't mentioned anything about it, which suggests to me maybe not.

01:46:30.720 And they did say that while she was limited physically, I mean, she could move.

01:46:36.360 She was she had a cane.

01:46:37.800 She wasn't like wheelchair bound.

01:46:39.340 So it is I don't know.

01:46:40.800 It's possible she didn't opt for that.

01:46:42.480 It's one of those things, the medic alert.

01:46:44.340 It's like one of those before and after moments when, you know, you know, you're getting old.

01:46:48.120 My mom put it at when Mr. Rogers starts to look hot.

01:46:51.760 That's when she knew she knew she'd crossed over to the dark side.

01:46:56.540 Well, God bless her.

01:46:57.980 God bless my mom.

01:46:58.740 God bless Nancy.

01:46:59.680 And the prayers continue as we await going into day 12.

01:47:04.000 Better news on this investigation.

01:47:05.840 Guys, thank you all so much.

01:47:07.600 You're so welcome.

01:47:08.480 Thanks for having us.

01:47:09.100 Thank you.

01:47:09.760 Really grateful.

01:47:10.440 Wow.

01:47:10.640 What a panel.

01:47:11.480 They're so great.

01:47:12.180 We're so lucky.

01:47:12.640 All right.

01:47:13.760 We're going to leave it there for today, but we will be back tomorrow with any updates

01:47:17.300 and relevant information.

01:47:18.800 And if you have any thoughts you want to share with us, please send them to me.

01:47:22.040 It's Megan, M-E-G-Y-N, at MeganKelley.com.

01:47:26.060 We'll talk to you tomorrow.

01:47:29.780 Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show.

01:47:31.860 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

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01:48:11.140 Oh boy, this laundry's piling up.

01:48:13.900 What?

01:48:14.460 Did you say something?

01:48:16.020 Yeah, it's messy in here.

01:48:17.540 Okay.

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01:48:20.760 Yeah, I don't think so.

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The Megyn Kelly Show - February 12, 2026

Black Gloves Found Near Nancy Guthrie Home, and Mystery Man Seen with TWO Backpacks, with Phil Holloway and More ｜ Ep. 1251

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