The Megyn Kelly Show - Blake Lively's Legal Fees Ploy, and Mackenzie Shirilla's Shocking ＂Crash,＂ with MK True Crime's Phil Holloway, Ashleigh Merchant, and Dave Aronberg ｜ Ep. 1330

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00:00:57.540 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:01:09.260 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. We've got a mega Kelly's court

00:01:13.880 today where we are going to bring you the latest on multiple major cases of serious interest.

00:01:19.360 Jury selection is underway right now in the Carmelo Anthony murder trial. The teen accused

00:01:24.020 of stabbing 17-year-old Austin Metcalf at a track and field meet in Texas in April of last year.

00:01:30.200 You remember this case? It has potentially a racial element. The defendant is black,

00:01:34.880 the victim was white, and the black teen was in a tent that was populated by a different school.

00:01:45.120 Austin Metcalf allegedly went to him to say, you know, move out of our tent. He said,

00:01:50.080 make me. And the next thing you know, Carmelo Anthony stabbed him in the heart with a knife. 0.98

00:01:57.620 That's what this case is about. Now he's going to mount a defense of some sort. I have no idea

00:02:03.080 how or what it will be. He seems to be suggesting it's going to be self-defense. We'll get into it.

00:02:08.920 And we now have the shocking footage of 18-year-old British student Henry Novak

00:02:16.580 dying while handcuffed. The police tried to withhold this. They would not release this

00:02:21.800 during the course of the trial. Well, now that's over and it's finally been released.

00:02:25.980 This poor kid lays dying, trying to tell cops that he has been stabbed five times and that he

00:02:34.160 cannot breathe. And the police officer looks at him and says, I don't think you have mate.

00:02:39.120 and he dies. He drowns in his own blood. And for that, absolutely nothing has happened to these

00:02:47.460 police so far. One has been allowed to retire early. That's it. They say an investigation

00:02:55.140 is underway. What's taking so long? This case has been out there for quite some time. How long does

00:03:01.260 it take to figure out he was stabbed? They didn't get him emergency help. And if the shoe were on

00:03:07.140 the other foot because the person who stabbed Henry Novak is a brown skin Sikh in England.

00:03:15.360 And you're not allowed to say that they're the perpetrators of anything. You see here,

00:03:21.080 the victim too was a white man, which is the most evil thing you can be in England and still in our 1.00

00:03:28.180 country, which is why they let him fucking die. I'm sorry. It's just so infuriating. They let him 0.99

00:03:34.000 die as he begged for help. And they did that because they took the word of his murderer

00:03:41.520 that he, Henry, was the assailant, that he had harassed the actual perpetrator based

00:03:49.640 on his Sikh religion or his brown skin, and that really the roles were reversed with no

00:03:56.660 evidence. They had an eyewitness call in that suggested it was the opposite, that Henry

00:04:00.580 was in fact the victim henry was the one who was down henry had five stab wounds and still

00:04:07.520 they they took the other kid's word other man his word they didn't even handcuff that other man

00:04:14.320 at any point it's just it's so egregious what has happened over there

00:04:19.160 they knelt in the street over the george floyd death in the uk for henry novak nothing these

00:04:30.460 police officers let him die, and then the community has let them get away with zero

00:04:36.780 accountability, the cops, who should and do owe a higher duty of care to its citizens,

00:04:44.700 to their citizens, those like Henry and those around Henry, who expect more of the people

00:04:50.200 they pay for, for safety and security services.

00:04:53.640 This case is just, it's so disturbing.

00:04:55.460 So we'll have the latest because now Henry's family speaking out, as is the family of the perpetrator.

00:05:02.640 Digwa is the last name. So we've got a lot to get to with Phil Holloway, Ashley Merchant and Dave Ehrenberg, the hosts of the MK True Crime Show.

00:05:11.240 They're all going to be here together later, fresh off their trip to Las Vegas for CrimeCon.

00:05:16.880 That's fun. But we have got to start today with the latest in the Blake Lively versus Justin Baldoni legal saga.

00:05:23.980 You thought it was over?

00:05:25.460 Think again.

00:05:26.840 The two sides last month announcing a last-minute settlement,

00:05:30.440 one of which Blake Lively got absolutely nothing.

00:05:33.820 Nothing. 1.00

00:05:34.520 She obviously did not want to go to trial. 0.99

00:05:37.640 She shouldn't have gone to trial.

00:05:39.340 It was going to be very unpleasant for her on that stand.

00:05:41.560 We all witnessed her claims fall apart since the day two years ago,

00:05:47.400 plus a year and a half when she filed them.

00:05:49.200 It's been a humiliation for her because virtually nothing she alleged in that complaint has panned out.

00:05:54.880 And we've seen evidence that it actually went exactly a different way.

00:05:58.900 So she bailed on the claim and we didn't have a trial.

00:06:02.520 And that's a good thing.

00:06:03.740 However, the settlement, she argues, did allow her to continue pursuing attorney's fees and damages,

00:06:12.440 which she said, says should be trebled, meaning tripled under California law. And in addition to

00:06:20.460 that, she wants a separate award of punitive damages, which are meant to punish a party when

00:06:26.680 they do something truly egregiously wrong. Now, she makes this argument under a California law

00:06:32.380 signed by Gavin Newsom back in 2023 that was inspired in the wake of the Me Too movement.

00:06:38.540 It's called the Speak Your Truth Act. And it makes certain communications about sexual harassment privileged. The thinking was that a lot of alleged sexual harassment victims won't come forward because they expect the man or could be the woman could be reversed, who they are accusing to then slap them with a defamation lawsuit to try to up the ante.

00:07:04.640 And that this is silencing too many women and that we have to change the stakes on these retaliatory defamation claims brought by sexual harassment defendants or were effectively discouraging the sexual harassment victims from doing anything about it.

00:07:22.700 OK, so Justin Baldoni did respond to Blake Lively's claims with a defamation claim, and it was dismissed a year ago.

00:07:34.140 But and so there was a question right from that moment about whether he was going to have to pay all of her, not just costs.

00:07:39.480 When you win a lawsuit, you generally get your costs, you know, the price of filing the lawsuit and so on, but not legal fees.

00:07:45.260 We don't do that here. That's a UK thing where where loser pays your attorney's fees.

00:07:49.500 And it's a massive deterrent to bringing a frivolous lawsuit, but that's not how we do it here in the United States.

00:07:54.240 However, this law does do that.

00:07:57.740 It allows individuals who filed a sexual harassment lawsuit and then got faced with a counterclaim for defamation and then get the defamation claim dismissed to get their attorney's fees, which will be substantial in this case, and other damages.

00:08:15.960 And then, as I point out, those can be trebled, meaning tripled, and you get punitives potentially, too.

00:08:21.220 To quote California Civil Code Section 47.1B, 47.1 is the short form for this law, quote, a prevailing defendant in any defamation action.

00:08:32.120 It's kind of confusing because here, Blake Lively is the defendant.

00:08:36.300 as in all of these cases, you've got the sexual harassment plaintiff who then becomes the defendant

00:08:43.200 in the cross claim brought by the man she sues for defamation. All right. So as you hear me read

00:08:50.880 this picture, Blake Lively as the defendant, a prevailing defendant in any defamation action

00:08:57.700 brought against that defendant for making a communication that is privileged under this

00:09:03.940 section shall be entitled to their reasonable attorney's fees and costs for successfully

00:09:08.460 defending themselves in the litigation, plus treble damages for any harm caused to them

00:09:12.800 by the defamation action, in addition to punitive damages available under Section 3294 or any

00:09:19.620 relief otherwise permitted by law.

00:09:20.980 That's quite a mouthful.

00:09:22.500 And if you can believe it, it is actually more complicated than it sounds.

00:09:26.680 So lawyers for Baldoni and Lively went into a New York federal court yesterday.

00:09:33.660 I mean, it's an interesting case in and of itself

00:09:35.420 because what are they doing here?

00:09:37.800 Like Blake Lively lives just north of New York City.

00:09:41.660 I believe she lives in Bedford, New York.

00:09:44.140 Baldoni lives in California.

00:09:45.960 The movie was made, I think, in New Jersey.

00:09:49.580 So, and it's using California law.

00:09:52.040 So why is a New York federal judge

00:09:54.020 deciding this unique California law

00:09:58.420 that hasn't even been on the books that long

00:10:00.160 nor challenged in many cases

00:10:01.660 to determine things like, is it constitutional?

00:10:06.160 If it's constitutional, who has the burden of proving 0.99

00:10:08.960 that she's entitled to any damages whatsoever?

00:10:13.420 What are the burdens at issue in the case?

00:10:16.500 Can I issue a damages award to her

00:10:19.660 now that the case has gone away?

00:10:22.100 Is there any like live proceeding in front of me?

00:10:25.000 This is one of the things the judge was asking

00:10:26.500 now that the parties have already settled this.

00:10:29.160 And if we have a factual determination to make about her legal fees and or whether there was behavior in this case that amounted to malice, which is one of the requirements.

00:10:41.860 I'll explain. Who makes that finding? Do I make that finding as a judge or is it contemplated by this statute that a jury makes this finding?

00:10:50.740 And how am I this judge in New York federal court supposed to determine any of this?

00:10:55.100 This is California's weird law, not mine.

00:10:58.020 And I never even passed the California bar exam

00:11:00.220 is basically what this judge is saying.

00:11:02.360 So it got really complicated.

00:11:04.860 And on top of that, we had an extraordinary development

00:11:07.500 in the wake of, I mean, this case has become very farcical.

00:11:10.960 And you guys know that.

00:11:11.860 And any fair audience knows that.

00:11:14.220 When we first looked at this case,

00:11:15.460 we looked at it very open-mindedly.

00:11:17.120 We said that on the air.

00:11:19.060 Have no dog in the hunt for Justin Baldoni whatsoever.

00:11:23.320 However, if anything, I found him kind of odd with all of his weird, you know, feminist statements.

00:11:29.360 He just seemed a little odd to me.

00:11:30.520 But my point is simply, I didn't know him and I had nothing for or against either one of them.

00:11:36.140 However, all you had to do is pay attention to this case to see her claims fell apart almost instantly.

00:11:44.720 I mean, direct allegations fell apart by independent witnesses.

00:11:48.760 For example, she claimed they brought some guy in to play the doctor when she was delivering a baby who had zero acting experience and was just one of Justin's best friends just so he could get a look at her lady parts.

00:11:59.400 Well, it turned out she had on biker shorts for the scene. 1.00

00:12:03.540 There was no getting a look at her lady parts by anybody.

00:12:06.240 And the guy who played the part of the doctor was a repeated and respected stage actor whose usual gig is really respected Shakespeare plays and so on.

00:12:15.940 He has done a couple of films.

00:12:17.100 So it wasn't odd that he was brought in. He wasn't just some like loser friend of Justin's who wanted to get a peek at Blake who was wearing biker shorts. That's just one. We could be here all day if we did it.

00:12:27.240 My point is simply, her claims were specious at best.

00:12:32.640 And now there is a real question about whether she should be entitled to her legal fees when her sexual harassment claim against him was also thrown out.

00:12:44.540 His defamation claim, counterclaim against her was thrown out, but her sexual harassment claim was also thrown out.

00:12:51.320 The only thing that was left standing that they almost went to trial on was her claim that after she raised sexual harassment with Baldoni and his team, that they then retaliated against her by unleashing this alleged campaign in the press to hurt her reputation.

00:13:09.700 And she could have gone to trial on that.

00:13:11.620 She decided not to. 0.74

00:13:13.060 I mean, that's for you to decide why she didn't think she could make that case in front of a jury.

00:13:17.080 So now she's back, having proven nothing, having willingly walked away from this entire case, having seen her sexual harassment case thrown out, as was his cross claim for defamation, and seeking, we have no idea how much money, I mean, it could be over $100 million for all I know, if you take her exorbitant legal fees and then triple them and then add in punitive damages.

00:13:40.040 I have no idea what she's claiming they are going to be, but this is going to be a substantial number she wants, after the case is over, settled, and none of her claims on the merits have ever been heard.

00:13:51.880 So something extraordinary happened yesterday after they had this argument, and it was the woman who was the architect and driving force behind this California law, who happens to be an attorney herself and a professor of law, posted on social media that this was never her vision.

00:14:14.520 that somebody like Blake Lively would be allowed to use this law potentially against someone like

00:14:21.980 Justin Baldoni, which we found very interesting. So we reached out to her and asked her if she'd

00:14:26.560 come on and she agreed. So she's here. She's a lawyer. She's an adjunct professor of law at

00:14:31.580 Southwestern Law School. Her name is Victoria Burke, and she is indeed the architect of and

00:14:36.540 the woman behind this law. Think about this. In 2006, 20,000 bucks equaled roughly 33 ounces of

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00:15:36.980 Victoria, welcome to the show.

00:15:38.040 Thank you, Megan.

00:15:39.160 It's great to see you.

00:15:40.340 So a very extraordinary effort on your part.

00:15:43.080 Let me just start with just a little bit of your backstory.

00:15:45.100 I don't want to put you on the spot, but this one was near and dear to you for personal reasons.

00:15:49.280 Yes, this bill was intended, it was made by me, who's a survivor, intended to protect survivors when speaking out

00:15:57.460 because i myself had been drugged and sexually assaulted by acquaintance in 2019 and i had gone

00:16:05.380 to the police and i pursued all the legal channels that i could at the time some of the evidence was

00:16:12.340 lost of the blood and the video evidence had been like not recovered in time it was lost and it was

00:16:18.660 going to be very hard to move forward as a case and i was talking to a friend of mine from law

00:16:23.780 school and she said you know be very careful speaking out or telling one don't use his name

00:16:30.020 don't use any identifiers because you could be sued for defamation and i was confused because i

00:16:35.780 thought current defamation laws you as long as you're speaking your truth or opinion you should

00:16:41.060 be protected and she said please look at see what happened in the wake of me too that there's been a

00:16:47.300 tremendous surge in retaliatory defamation lawsuits and you know you could be hit with one

00:16:53.380 So I was curious and I started researching.

00:16:57.420 I'm like, oh, this is really interesting because this was not covered in the press.

00:17:01.600 And I was noticing many cases were saying it was having a chilling effect on survivors coming forward.

00:17:08.100 And I had previously been on American Bar Association committees where I drafted legislation.

00:17:13.460 And I thought, I wonder if I could just adjust the defamation laws to protect survivors when they come forward.

00:17:20.060 So I spent a year and a half researching cases and statutes, and I worked on drafting it, and I vetted the bill by various advocacy groups.

00:17:32.620 And then in the summer of 2022, I proposed it to members of the California legislature, and within a year, it was passed into law.

00:17:41.980 but we did work with the aclu to fine-tune my original drafting to make sure there's still

00:17:49.580 access to courts that was very important to us for anyone falsely accused to still be able to

00:17:55.300 have access to courts and prevail like let's say depp v heard which you know a lot of times people

00:18:01.980 would bring up to me like what about that case and i would say as you know johnny depp prevailed

00:18:06.460 by showing malice, he would prevailed under this law as well. Just to point out, because what you

00:18:12.680 did is you said, OK, you can bring a responsive defamation case if you're let's just go with it's

00:18:21.640 a man who's a defendant because that's the case here. You can bring a defamation lawsuit if you're

00:18:26.860 a man who gets sued for sexual harassment and you feel this is defamatory and it's untrue.

00:18:30.540 You were not saying you can never bring a claim, but we are going to raise the evidence that is required of you to prove a defamation claim to to proving that that just sorry, you were going to raise.

00:18:44.840 Yeah, the defamation standard is going to require you to prove that her claims were brought with malice.

00:18:52.340 Is that is that how it works?

00:18:53.500 The change was this because they're both public figures.

00:18:56.900 The standard is always going to be malice.

00:18:58.600 Baldoni would always have to show that. Yes. Well, in the in the Baldoni case for civilians,

00:19:03.760 it conformed it to be malice because that's what most anti slap statutes also use is malice. So we

00:19:09.140 conform all to use malice. So it would be more even across the board. OK, so just to make it

00:19:14.920 super clear for the audience, this is it is. I'm sorry. If you're a civilian, you're meaning you're

00:19:19.060 not a public figure and you file a claim for defamation against somebody because they said

00:19:23.120 something publicly that was very nasty and untrue about you. You generally don't have to prove malice

00:19:27.440 to recover for defamation.

00:19:29.220 You can prove that it was false

00:19:31.100 and that they said it publicly

00:19:33.780 and that it hurt you,

00:19:35.640 that there are damages as a result.

00:19:37.380 But you don't have to prove this higher burden of,

00:19:39.560 and they said it with malice,

00:19:41.360 which generally means with knowledge that it was false

00:19:44.160 or with reckless disregard

00:19:45.660 for whether it was true or false.

00:19:47.860 I would have to prove that

00:19:49.200 if I sued anybody for defamation

00:19:50.780 because I'm a public figure,

00:19:51.700 so I'm very hard to defame.

00:19:53.360 And believe it or not, this is a good thing.

00:19:54.640 I don't love it.

00:19:55.920 This is a good thing in America

00:19:56.920 because we believe in free speech

00:19:58.840 and we don't want people to easily be able to start

00:20:01.100 slapping everybody with defamation lawsuits

00:20:02.960 and chilling their speech.

00:20:04.320 So we really do require a lot before you can recover.

00:20:06.940 And that's a good thing.

00:20:08.100 But, and in this case,

00:20:09.760 Blake Lively would have had to show,

00:20:12.440 let me reverse it again.

00:20:13.500 I'm getting confused myself.

00:20:14.760 Justin Baldoni would have had to show malice

00:20:16.920 on Blake's part anyway,

00:20:19.140 because Blake is a public figure

00:20:20.580 or because Justin's a public figure.

00:20:22.120 So he can't sue anybody for defamation either

00:20:23.980 unless he proves malice.

00:20:25.480 But in any event, the statute requires that everybody in this situation have to prove malice.

00:20:30.120 So you put malice in there.

00:20:31.480 And that is one of the it's important because it's one of the things they were arguing over

00:20:34.300 yesterday.

00:20:35.400 Who has to prove the malice?

00:20:38.180 Does like Blake in recovering her fees have to prove that she didn't file the sexual harassment

00:20:46.860 claim maliciously?

00:20:48.700 Or does Justin have to prove that she did file the lawsuit maliciously, which is why he's suing her for defamation?

00:20:57.980 Now, let me just table all that because it's a complex legal debate that people aren't going to really fully understand.

00:21:04.200 They are going to understand that you as the architect of the law who believes in this law came forward and made this post yesterday, which I found interesting, too.

00:21:11.200 And you wrote, first you write, I thought my bill, I never thought my bill would be in the eyes of a storm with all eyes watching.

00:21:20.360 As the architect of the bill, I strongly believe in the constitutionality of my bill, because that was one of the things Baldoni's team argued, like, not even sure this is constitutional.

00:21:28.960 And then you wrote, unhappy with it being weaponized as a PR redemption tool by Blake Lively and her team.

00:21:35.960 Honestly, I don't think the judge should grant attorney's fees in this matter.

00:21:40.340 So why do you think it's being weaponized as a PR redemption tool by Lively and team?

00:21:45.520 I received a communication from her attorney that mentioned that Blake was going to be moving 47.1 nationally.

00:21:56.760 That she wanted your law to become a national law.

00:21:59.100 She is aware, they would be aware that I've already moved it to four states.

00:22:03.520 It's been now enacted in four states, and I have introduced it in 15 states, this legislative session.

00:22:09.360 So I have, for years, been working on moving it nationwide.

00:22:13.820 I acquired three extra states last year, and I'm moving forward to different states.

00:22:18.600 It takes multiple years for different states, but I received a communication from her attorney

00:22:23.980 that Blake was intending to now move 47.1 nationwide, including she would be moving

00:22:30.460 it to New York.

00:22:31.920 And I responded, I'm already doing that.

00:22:36.520 can you please check with me before going forward because my whole strategy was to fly this under

00:22:42.260 the radar because we basically usually don't have much opposition and I said there's oftentimes

00:22:48.040 your client is compared to Amber Heard and so I would prefer you check with me and just stick with

00:22:54.720 like mentioning the California part without mentioning it's being moved nationwide because

00:22:59.640 I was worried that this is going to become just a PR campaign for her and it wasn't going to be 0.63

00:23:07.200 about survivors anymore. It was going to be about like, I didn't want her to turn my bill into the 0.99

00:23:12.080 Met Gala. Yeah, right. So well said. And so what was their response? I, from what I understand is

00:23:19.900 her attorney wrote me back and said, thank you for your perspective and that she still moved

00:23:24.820 forward without me being included in additional communications and meetings about moving the

00:23:30.460 bill in New York. It came to light that this spring, her attorney was having meetings that

00:23:37.180 I was unaware of with one of the advocacy groups once a week where she was assisting in redrafting

00:23:46.160 the bill. And I understood that she added or contributed to an additional paragraph. And I

00:23:53.080 kept asking to see the additional paragraph it was never sent to me but i understood it was

00:23:58.100 something to protect the attorneys who would be um you know like the equivalent of like blake's

00:24:04.380 attorney and so i asked for that portion to be removed from the bill language because i felt

00:24:10.360 the you know focus should be on survivors purely because attorneys have insurance

00:24:16.380 and i wasn't under right like why why drag them into i wasn't understanding why she was part of

00:24:22.000 the conversation and I wasn't. And so what is it about this particular case that makes you think

00:24:30.300 Blake should not get attorney's fees under 47.1? Well, for two points, I was like last year when

00:24:37.240 it was dismissed, it was dismissed procedurally. So I wasn't understanding if, if the case is

00:24:42.680 dismissed, how are you awarding damages when a jury hasn't heard or a judge hasn't heard the

00:24:49.640 facts, whether or not malice is there. So I was confused, like, how can you award it without,

00:24:54.860 you know, fact finding? And I was also confused because initially when I heard

00:25:00.280 the settlement had been reached, I was like, okay, that's off the table. They're done with this now.

00:25:06.680 And I thought for sure they would have resolved that as well during that settlement.

00:25:10.820 And then to hear what's continuing on, I was puzzled by that.

00:25:15.420 so in other words Justin's got to prove that she behaved maliciously in bringing this lawsuit in

00:25:22.520 order to recover for defamation and you were wondering like when did that happen because

00:25:28.020 as I said in the intro both of their claims got dismissed on the papers her her sexual harassment

00:25:33.220 claim and his defamation claim and there's been no proof of malice one way or the other as I

00:25:38.360 understand her sexual harassment claims have been dismissed so I was a little bit confused

00:25:42.960 why this is still pending and ongoing so i was concerned about the use of the bill and how did

00:25:49.120 you how did you envision it because this seemed to be something the judge was really wrestling

00:25:53.520 with yesterday he's like he was kind of like you're back didn't you like didn't you settle

00:25:59.120 this case and like we we decided not to do this and we didn't impanel a jury which i would normally

00:26:05.620 use to determine something like malice and like damages awards and we actually didn't even go

00:26:10.760 forward with certifying experts, which is what you'd also do before a trial. You'd have an expert

00:26:14.480 witness certified. And he said, we didn't do any of that because you said you were settling the

00:26:20.460 case. So I don't even have expert witnesses that I can call or whose testimony I can look to.

00:26:26.740 And there's no jury here to evaluate it. So tell me how you envisioned. And he says the case is

00:26:32.680 over. So like, shouldn't this have been handled before I dismissed the case? So how did you

00:26:37.180 envision this would have gone down? How should this have gone down? In my opinion, if the case

00:26:42.280 is dismissed on a different basis, it stops at that point where it is dismissed and the procedural

00:26:49.320 point and it went away and it should not continue after the case has been dismissed, the damages

00:26:56.400 part. So if she wanted to file this motion, she should have done it in your view prior to the

00:27:01.680 dismissal of the case? Well, she had used as a defense. She had used multiple defenses to my 0.72

00:27:07.960 understanding. The first was a procedural one about where she spoke. The communication happened 0.91

00:27:12.860 to be in a privileged place. And that's what she filing a human rights campaign or complaint with 0.93

00:27:20.820 the California HR. Right. And that defense does not include attorney fees. And her second defense 1.00

00:27:27.800 was 47.1, which does include attorney fees, trouble, actual damages, and potential punitive.

00:27:35.840 Punitive is not guaranteed, it's potential. So that would be, but my understanding, if he

00:27:41.600 dismissed it under one completely and chose not to discuss it because Judge Lyman chose not to

00:27:46.740 discuss it, number two, he did not say I'm dismissing it for three reasons. He said I'm

00:27:53.080 dismiss it for one. So I thought we're one and done then. But then here we are.

00:27:59.700 Do you think this is about her trying to look like the victor when, you know, clearly they

00:28:07.080 settled for no money and people pointed that out and she took a bit of a PR black eye?

00:28:11.780 Well, I have a bit of a concern that this bill is really meant to protect survivors who are

00:28:18.140 having meritless cases brought against them when they don't have money to defend themselves.

00:28:21.980 And it was supposed to make someone discouraged from bringing forward a meritless suit.

00:28:27.040 And I do worry about my bill being misused and for, you know, just for PR and what it could be gained from that when it really matters so much to survivors to be able to have these protections that so many of her claims are dismissed.

00:28:46.040 I'm just I might have lost her words.

00:28:49.120 Mm-hmm. Because my understanding was the thinking behind 47.1 was a lot of these women have no 1.00

00:28:56.980 resources, no power, no connections. And in so many circumstances, they're going after a man 1.00

00:29:04.880 who has far more power, more resources, and more connections than they do. So it's almost like a

00:29:11.160 David and Goliath situation. And this was an attempt by you to try to even that out a little

00:29:16.340 bit so that women, it could be a man again, but like generally women, wouldn't feel so scared

00:29:21.540 to stand up for their rights. But in this situation, she is the one who has more power, 0.94

00:29:28.600 more money, more connections, can afford lawyers way more easily than Justin Baldoni can.

00:29:34.920 And he managed to get her entire claim against him thrown out. So it's like,

00:29:40.900 there is a real question about whether the fundamental purpose of 47.1 to allow the fees

00:29:46.260 and the trouble damages and the punitives has any application here whatsoever.

00:29:50.380 You nailed it, Megan, about the concern for most survivors is that these can be these.

00:29:57.240 A lot of times they're weaponized defamation lawsuits used to silence them because when someone receives it,

00:30:02.220 they realize it might take five, six or seven figures to defend in multiple years.

00:30:07.040 And it's always cheaper to go quiet.

00:30:09.520 So the concern was if you have to go forward and defend it and you prevail,

00:30:15.100 then only if you prevail to show that you did not have malice you would recover your attorney fee

00:30:22.520 so at least you'd be made whole in any damages that you might have like missing work or something

00:30:28.100 to that effect and also the purpose that I believed in was to incentivize attorneys to

00:30:33.840 take these very difficult cases and you know so that's been my main concern with the bill

00:30:39.820 and when you say you prevail I imagine her lawyers will say well she did prevail because

00:30:44.060 she got the defamation case against her dismissed. Is that not good enough?

00:30:48.140 For 47.1, it would not be. You would have to show malice in order to receive any attorney fees.

00:30:54.860 That would have to be established. And right now we have not seen that. It would have to be argued

00:31:01.380 or a whole new case. And I don't know how you make a lie of a case that was dead.

00:31:07.900 Who would have to show malice by whom?

00:31:09.860 In this circumstance, the plaintiff, Baldoni, would have to show that Blake was motivated by malice, did this with malice behind her sexual harassment lawsuit.

00:31:21.940 So if he's able to show that she had a motivation other than her concerns for sexual harassment, if, you know, if he can't show, you know, she did this maliciously and she honestly believed this was happening to her, then she would potentially prevail.

00:31:36.140 But if he is able to show that she had ulterior motives or some other definition of malice behind her wanting to go forward with this, you know, sexual harassment case, then he would prevail.

00:31:52.620 Got it. And then this is back to the problem of they never had testimony.

00:31:57.600 They never had it.

00:31:58.420 They haven't had a hearing. They haven't had a trial.

00:32:00.400 So it's like she just wants this reimbursement, my own belief is, to make it look like she won something from him, even though she walked away for not even $1.

00:32:10.080 And she took a PR hit because everybody said it's basically an admission that she has no claim.

00:32:16.220 She knows she's going to lose if she goes forward to trial.

00:32:18.140 So last question, if the judge, in this case Judge Lyman, is listening to this, what do you want him to know?

00:32:24.540 I would say I used hesitation on awarding something that has not had fact proven of

00:32:30.380 malice. You would still have to go forward and listen to that because that was the intention

00:32:34.740 of the bill. And to do it in this case, I would suggest can undermine survivors as opposed to

00:32:41.140 advance their cause. It is interesting. The whole purpose was to protect survivors that were in a

00:32:47.640 place of being silenced because they had no power. Yeah. And that's not Blake Lively.

00:32:53.960 Well, I thank you for coming on and explaining your post.

00:32:57.480 It's been fascinating.

00:32:58.300 And I know we'll see.

00:32:59.680 He didn't seem like he was getting ready to strike down the constitutionality of your bill.

00:33:03.440 That's probably a challenge that some California judge will get to deal with on another day.

00:33:06.960 But my own take on it was this judge does not seem inclined to let her go down this particular lane. 0.79

00:33:13.600 Victoria, all the best.

00:33:14.420 Thank you, Megan.

00:33:15.700 Yeah, thanks for telling your story, too, and for doing something about it.

00:33:18.220 Our friends from MK True Crime react next, and we take up the Henry Novak case as well. Stand by.

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00:34:56.220 Here to react to the Baldoni and Lively Saga,

00:34:58.500 plus all the other major legal news,

00:35:00.180 including this Mackenzie Schirrilla case

00:35:02.700 that it seems everyone is talking about,

00:35:04.560 our attorneys and hosts of the MK True Crime Show,

00:35:07.620 Phil Holloway and Ashley Merchant.

00:35:09.540 Go and subscribe on YouTube and all podcast platforms

00:35:12.360 at mktruecrime.com.

00:35:14.340 They are fresh off a trip to CrimeCon

00:35:16.180 in Las Vegas over the weekend.

00:35:18.520 That's why we had to wait until Tuesday

00:35:20.080 to get them on because Monday,

00:35:21.560 everyone was in bed asleep.

00:35:22.580 Oh, yes.

00:35:23.560 Welcome, guys.

00:35:25.140 Great to see you.

00:35:26.920 Very interesting to have the architect of the law

00:35:29.220 come out and say,

00:35:30.320 it's being misused by Blake Lively here. 0.54

00:35:33.240 She has no business bringing this Ashley.

00:35:35.320 An interesting detail on how Blake Lively's team

00:35:37.660 reached out to her.

00:35:39.280 Oh, yeah.

00:35:39.720 To try to work with Blake

00:35:42.020 who wants to be the one to spearhead taking this national 0.98

00:35:45.840 so she can bathe herself in stolen glory, 1.00

00:35:49.560 which is my guest's, not hers. 0.60

00:35:52.480 This is exactly what we thought she was doing. 1.00

00:35:54.720 She is using this for publicity. 1.00

00:35:56.940 She wants this case to drag on and on 1.00

00:35:59.340 so she can remain relevant.

00:36:01.480 It's not shocking,

00:36:02.840 and that's exactly what your last guest was telling us.

00:36:05.680 You know, she wants to go on this public tour 1.00

00:36:08.120 where she's taking over this law, 1.00

00:36:10.060 this law that had a very good purpose, you know, a good basis was actually there to try to level 1.00

00:36:15.720 the playing field. And that's really what attorney's fees do. You know, attorney's fees

00:36:18.940 clauses in these statutes, they're really for one of two purposes. It's either to curb really,

00:36:24.300 really bad conduct, which is why we see that malice language in this law, or it's to really

00:36:28.620 make the level playing field. And that's what your last guest was talking about. You know,

00:36:32.460 it's really hard for survivors to find lawyers to take these cases. And so they want to sort of

00:36:37.960 level this playing field, give a little bit more incentive to lawyers to take these cases.

00:36:42.460 That's not what we have here. We have Blake Lively, who is definitely misusing this law,

00:36:47.180 trying to remain relevant, trying to remain in the headlines as desperately as she can. 0.92

00:36:51.540 She just needs to walk away at this point.

00:36:55.120 You know, Phil, it becomes really clear if you think about something like the Duke LaCrosse case,

00:37:00.620 you know, where Crystal Mangum, the alleged victim in that case, made the whole thing up.

00:37:06.040 And we know that she's admitted it. But she had these three lacrosse players very much in the crosshairs. They were charged criminally with rape. I mean, it was about as serious as a heart attack.

00:37:17.460 And, you know, that's why the law is controversial that Victoria put through, because those guys would absolutely, in a civil matter, if she sued them, have said, we're 100 percent counterclaiming against you for defamation.

00:37:31.700 And they would have under her bill potentially recovered if they could prove she filed her claims against them with malice.

00:37:39.720 Now, those guys would have had zero problem proving that because she made the whole thing up.

00:37:43.380 What what what other motive could there be? Of course, it was malicious.

00:37:46.660 Baldoni, if he's actually forced by this judge to have some sort of an evidentiary hearing or post-trial trial, I don't even know what they're suggesting.

00:37:56.080 The judge didn't either.

00:37:58.020 He would have to prove that Blake brought this maliciously.

00:38:01.260 I actually think he could do it too.

00:38:02.840 You know, Megan, in law school, there's a class titled Annoying Cases and Annoying Litigants Should Just Go Away.

00:38:11.000 And I think that's where this case is now.

00:38:13.780 this is now in the realm of utter ridiculousness. Lively is, as others have said, in my opinion,

00:38:20.460 on a fake victory tour. You know, this whole thing about this treble damages statute,

00:38:27.420 as Ashley kind of pointed out, it can overcomplicate things. And sometimes people

00:38:31.980 commit sexual harassment and sometimes people falsely accuse others of it. And, you know,

00:38:38.180 anytime you have these treble damages statutes, you just invite this kind of weaponization. But

00:38:44.180 let me just say this about what I thought was a settlement. I heard our friends Matt Murphy and

00:38:49.540 Mark Garagos doing a great segment on their program on the MK True Crime Channel about this

00:38:55.500 settlement. And I thought, great, this case is over. But apparently it's not. Apparently we're

00:38:59.780 going to have to have another trial about the settlement. So I was always taught that when you

00:39:05.960 negotiate and draft a settlement, you're supposed to settle everything. It should be complete. You

00:39:10.460 should have complete releases of all of these things so that these kinds of complicated questions

00:39:15.580 would not remain because you don't really get the benefit of having a settlement if you still

00:39:20.660 have to keep going back to court over and over again. And even as the trial judge has recently

00:39:27.320 said to Lively's attorneys, you know, they've said, look, he said, look, your client just has

00:39:33.060 the power to just make this go away. And I think even the judge, quite frankly, is getting a little

00:39:37.800 bit sick of this case. And I think we all are just ready for it to be over with. Maybe they can reach

00:39:42.660 some kind of secondary compromise and this time get the settlement done right, sign a complete

00:39:48.840 release, and just have these people who clearly hate each other just go their separate ways.

00:39:55.020 I know. She doesn't have a claim and she knows that she's trying to turn a loss into a victory 0.98

00:40:00.260 based on these exorbitant claims for attorney's fees times three.

00:40:04.780 And the judge yesterday, Ashley, just reading the tea leaves here,

00:40:07.740 does not seem inclined to give her what she wants.

00:40:11.060 First he asked, he was asking, well, what happens if the sexual harassment claim

00:40:16.740 has been thrown out, as he did in this case?

00:40:20.820 Like, she didn't prevail on her sexual harassment case.

00:40:24.380 So, like, how does that factor in?

00:40:25.580 Then there was the question of, he was saying,

00:40:27.580 aren't the defendants entitled to a jury trial on the damages issue? Like you want me to just

00:40:33.020 come in here and what is the judge supposed to treble? He's supposed to treble, meaning triple

00:40:37.520 her actual damages from his defamation claim. What is that? We have no idea. No, we don't.

00:40:44.460 And we also have, I mean, we've got a constitution that says it can't be excessive. And it sounds

00:40:49.440 like what she's asking for is excessive. I think what you have with this judge is you have a judge

00:40:53.760 that knows what he wants to do.

00:40:55.000 And he literally left the court and told his law clerks,

00:40:57.940 figure out how I can get rid of this.

00:40:59.800 That is what he's doing because he knows

00:41:01.820 he wants to make it right. 0.98

00:41:03.240 He knows that this is ridiculous. 0.86

00:41:04.500 He knows, like Phil said, 0.81

00:41:05.600 all of the claims should have been settled.

00:41:07.480 And they probably all imagined they were settled

00:41:09.740 or close thereof.

00:41:11.340 And he just wants it to go away

00:41:12.540 because quite frankly,

00:41:13.600 there's other things that they need to do.

00:41:15.580 And cases like this are why we can't have

00:41:17.300 a good functioning legal system

00:41:19.180 where we can have cases that actually go to court

00:41:21.200 in a timely fashion.

00:41:22.180 And he's probably just frustrated, like most of America is frustrated at Blake Lively continuing

00:41:27.240 on this path when she needs to just walk away. And I think that's what we're going to see him do.

00:41:32.020 I think we're going to see this judge try somehow to get, you know, say, hey, this needs to go to

00:41:36.660 another court. This, you know, this isn't right. Something. I agree with you. He did not seem

00:41:42.100 inclined to indulge this nonsense at all. He was like, how isn't this a matter for the jury?

00:41:47.000 There's no jury because you settled. The case is done. I already told you to go away.

00:41:51.640 I dismissed her sexual harassment claim on a 12b6 motion, whatever. I dismissed her claim 1.00

00:41:57.640 earlier. How is she supposed to prove damages now that we don't have a trial? Do you want me to have

00:42:03.420 a mini trial after I've already dismissed the case? Wouldn't they be entitled to a jury and

00:42:07.620 not a judge to hear? Like he's raising all these very practical concerns. And also the question of,

00:42:12.700 frankly, is this law even constitutional? I mean, obviously, Victoria Burke argues for her law, 0.95

00:42:17.760 And I understand why. But there is a real question about whether you can muzzle defendants.

00:42:22.700 Again, think about the Duke La Crosse defendants. Like, why would they have to prove malice in that case?

00:42:27.520 Why? They would argue. What do you mean? She's a civilian. We're civilians. We're not public figures.

00:42:32.980 That's not the standard set out by New York Times v. Sullivan. I should be able to bring a defamation.

00:42:37.880 I should not be burdened or hampered or deterred from bringing a valid defamation case simply because the person who's defaming me 0.97

00:42:47.500 instead of saying, like, I'm a rude jerk who doesn't pay his bills, is saying something even 0.99

00:42:52.060 worse, which is that I raped her. Like, how does that make the burden on me higher in my cross 1.00

00:42:57.580 claim for defamation? So that's going to play out at some point, but I don't think it's going to

00:43:01.740 happen in front of this judge. I think some California judge or maybe some judge in one

00:43:04.680 of these other states where she's getting the law spread will have to deal with that. I do predict 1.00

00:43:08.420 Blake Lively is going to be severely disappointed on this one, and it's looking like yet another big

00:43:13.860 loss for her. Okay. I want to keep going. Carmelo Anthony, the case I mentioned in our intro

00:43:21.520 out of Texas, this young black teenager who goes to a track meet at another school and bumps into

00:43:30.900 a young white teenager named Austin Metcalf. There were something like between nine and 12 schools

00:43:36.540 on site for this big track meet. And Carmelo Anthony, for one reason or another, it's still

00:43:41.660 not clear to me which, what the reason was, winds up under the tent that where the Austin Metcalf

00:43:48.040 school was hanging. And someone told him to leave. Certainly at some point, Austin said,

00:43:53.520 leave. And he had a bag and he allegedly said to Austin, make me and grab the bag. And Austin did

00:44:03.500 place hands on him, allegedly, in some way to remove him. And he pulled out a knife

00:44:10.500 and stabbed Austin Metcalf in the heart, killing him within minutes. He didn't even live to the

00:44:17.340 hospital. He died in the arms of his identical twin. He was a football star. He was on his way

00:44:24.780 to college. He had his entire life in front of him. And it was snuffed out in an incredibly

00:44:30.340 stupid, pointless instant. And now they are picking a jury in Texasville. And it appears 1.00

00:44:39.900 pretty clear from what little we've heard from the defense team for Carmelo Anthony,

00:44:45.420 that they are going to argue this was self-defense. I presumably because Austin Metcalf

00:44:51.180 did apparently, we believe as of today, lay hands on Carmelo Anthony after Carmelo told him,

00:44:57.940 make me. Yeah, well, the defendant in this case started setting up his defense pretty much

00:45:04.620 immediately because the police reports quote him as saying things like, quote, I was protecting

00:45:10.580 myself. And he said, quote, he put his hands on me. I told him not to. So yeah, he's setting up

00:45:18.660 for some type of a justification or self-defense type of defense to the crime. But here's the

00:45:24.920 problem for him. You can't be the person who instigates any type of a altercation or you

00:45:33.120 can't provoke this type of confrontation and then legally or properly avail yourself of

00:45:39.220 self-defense. You know, you can defend yourself, clearly, if someone wrongfully puts their hands

00:45:45.120 on you, but you're not allowed to just use more force than is necessary anyway. But I do think

00:45:51.700 that going back to what I believe are the facts of this case that show that Carmelo Anthony was the

00:45:58.480 person who started this whole thing, I don't think he's legally going to be able to prevail

00:46:03.780 on a claim of self-defense if we have a fair jury. And of course, that's something I know

00:46:09.660 we're going to talk about because you've got people outside the courthouse now that are

00:46:13.740 protesting in favor of both sides. And you've got to wonder, is this a case where you're going to

00:46:18.840 have a jury um that is pure and that can reach a a proper decision well the the particular

00:46:27.000 jurisdiction where this is going to be held collin county uh 2024 election results

00:46:32.400 interestingly went 54 for trump 43 for harris it's 54 white it's 0.7 black 16 hispanic or latino

00:46:43.420 18% Indian, it says. I don't know if they mean Asian or American, but it's predominantly white.

00:46:53.320 And so, you know, you're probably going to have a jury that reflects that general makeup.

00:46:59.060 Not sure exactly how that will play, but certainly should play better than the OJ trial played in

00:47:04.520 Los Angeles for, you know, a jury that was predominantly minority and had a grudge against

00:47:09.980 the cops. Um, Phil mentions the thing about provoking Ashley. The thing is Carmelo Anthony

00:47:16.640 could argue that he was provoked by potentially by Austin putting hands on him. Number one feels

00:47:22.220 right. The force you use after somebody lays hands on you cannot be disproportionate. Deadly force

00:47:27.860 cannot be used just because somebody places hands on you. Even if it's a push or a shove or like a

00:47:34.240 try to pushing you out of the tent, that's not going to work. But, but even let's say he's going

00:47:39.500 to say I thought he had a weapon or something like that, that if you provoked him into laying

00:47:45.960 those hands on you, you can't win on a self-defense defense. Right, right. It's going to be a very

00:47:51.940 difficult case for the defense. I think we have a little bit of a hint as to what they're going to

00:47:56.980 argue in some of the statements. He hasn't made a lot of statements, but the defense lawyer did

00:48:00.320 make a statement that I've looked at a couple times. He said something about the state's not

00:48:04.920 going to be able to disprove beyond a reasonable doubt that this was self-defense. So I think

00:48:09.360 even he has recognized that this isn't what we would call a perfect self-defense. It's a very

00:48:13.600 messy self-defense, but I think he's going to put it up anyway. And honestly, I don't think he has

00:48:17.800 a whole lot of other options other than for him to present this to the prosecution and plea for

00:48:24.360 mercy, which is what he should have done because he murdered this kid. I mean, he definitely

00:48:28.280 murdered this poor child who should be graduating high school and getting ready to go off to

00:48:32.320 college, should be enjoying his last summer before college, and instead his parents are

00:48:37.580 mourning his loss. I mean, it is murder. And I don't think a jury is going to cut him any sympathy.

00:48:43.100 The fact that he walked up to this tent where, you know, this is you got to think about the

00:48:47.040 situation. It's a it's a track meet where there's lots of different tents. Everybody is there under

00:48:52.640 their own school's tent. We look at it through a race lens. But these are events where you don't

00:48:56.540 really go up to, you know, your opponent and go hang out with them. Like you don't do that. You

00:49:01.440 don't say get out like that. I mean, that's not going to a Giants game and sitting on the wrong

00:49:07.460 side. This happens at every sporting event. Yes, that's exactly what I'm thinking. It's like

00:49:10.620 you're going in the locker room of your opponent and being like, hey, let's hang out. What do you

00:49:14.760 expect? And so, you know, if this guy laid hands on him, so? I mean, laying hands on him does not

00:49:20.520 mean that this kid was in reasonable fear of an immediate bodily injury, a serious bodily injury.

00:49:26.400 You can't just be scared that you're going to get pushed. You have to be scared that you're

00:49:30.060 going to die or you're literally going to lose your limbs or something super, super significant.

00:49:35.000 again. And, you know, the law, all the different reasonable doubt laws in all the different states

00:49:38.500 are always debated and they have little nuances. You know, do we use the word reasonable? Do we

00:49:42.580 use objective stuff like that? Juries don't care. They don't care about that. They know what self

00:49:46.500 defense is and they know what it's not. And, you know, they're going to apply their common sense

00:49:50.520 and they're going to know that this kid did not need to be under this tent. And they're going to

00:49:54.460 know that he did not need to pull out a knife when it, whether or not this guy put hands on

00:49:58.860 him or not, that did not warrant him pulling out a knife. Why did he have a knife in the first

00:50:02.400 place. I mean, that's, if I was on the jury, that's what I would want to know. What did his

00:50:05.320 parents teach him to bring a knife to a track meet, a high school track meet? He went there

00:50:09.740 looking for trouble. And how could Austin Metcalf have ever anticipated that? These kids are

00:50:15.900 anticipating at most a fist bite or like some shoving, but like not a knife in the heart

00:50:20.980 immediately. A black eye, maybe. And that's what they said. Here's what the police report says.

00:50:25.860 Police officer Cortez Eduardo, I gave the suspect, meaning Carmelo Anthony, instructions to keep his

00:50:30.680 hands in the air. During this time, the suspect said verbally out loud, I was protecting myself

00:50:35.380 while the suspect sat on the ground. I advised that I had the alleged suspect. The suspect then

00:50:40.440 responds and says, I'm not alleged. I did it. As we were walking to the squad car, the suspect

00:50:45.940 was emotional and said, he put his hands on me. I told him not to. It should also be noted that

00:50:52.700 the suspect asked me, is he going to be okay? While he was in the back seat, the suspect was

00:50:58.080 crying hysterically, says another police officer. And one other police officer writes that a witness

00:51:05.780 told him, Austin had told Anthony he needed to move out from under the team's tent. Anthony

00:51:11.800 grabbed his bag, opened it, reached inside and proceeded to tell Austin, touch me and see what

00:51:16.780 happens. No one really thought Anthony really had any weapons in his bag. And Austin proceeded to

00:51:22.360 touch Anthony. Then Anthony told Austin to punch him and see what happens. A short time later,

00:51:28.140 Austin grabbed Anthony to tell him to move. Anthony pulled out what the witness recalled

00:51:34.900 as a black knife and stabbed Austin once in the chest and then ran. Austin began grabbing his

00:51:41.400 chest and telling everyone to get help. He was dead shortly thereafter. There's more. I want to

00:51:47.200 tell you about an allegation already of jury tampering because they're in the midst of selecting

00:51:52.540 the jury by the defendant's team or its supporters. We'll explore that right after this break. Don't

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00:53:02.040 quo.com slash MK. That's Q-U-O dot com slash MK. Back with me now, Phil Holloway and Ashley

00:53:11.440 Merchant. And joining all of us is the third co-host over at the MK True Crime show that

00:53:17.820 Ashley and Phil host, Dave Ehrenberg. You can go and subscribe and listen to all their great

00:53:23.000 legal content at mktruecrime.com. Dave, welcome to the party. So we are in the midst of talking

00:53:28.640 about Carmelo Anthony and this case against him. What we've seen so far is the defendant,

00:53:36.500 again, who is black, the victim is white, is not him directly, but through his surrogates,

00:53:43.580 trying to make this about race. There is a pernicious man connected to the Carmelo Anthony

00:53:49.760 family, whose name is, stand by, I have it here, Dominique Alexander. And Dominique Alexander

00:53:59.000 has been making irresponsible statements all along about race in this case. And now Dominique

00:54:06.260 is under the same gag order the rest of the witnesses, parties, lawyers, etc. are, but

00:54:12.460 does not seem to be abiding by it. Last June, just as a reminder, this guy Carmelo Anthony's

00:54:20.360 spokesperson, that's how he describes himself, Dominique Alexander, of the Next Generation

00:54:25.700 Action Network. His name is Dominique, but he's a man. Last June, he asked supporters to stand

00:54:32.300 with Carmelo Anthony and family in the fight against white supremacy after Carmelo Anthony

00:54:37.920 was indicted. There is zero evidence that this has to do with race, zero. And now let me give

00:54:45.400 you guys a flavor for what he's doing this week. Monday, this guy who's under the gag order tweets

00:54:50.560 out on his X feed, as the trial begins, it's imperative that the public receives facts and

00:54:55.980 not incomplete narratives, et cetera. For months, many media outlets and commentators have repeatedly

00:55:00.980 described this case as an altercation between Carmelo Anthony and Austin Metcalf. However,

00:55:07.300 public statements and reporting following the incident have indicated that there were three

00:55:13.080 individuals involved in the encounter, Carmelo Anthony, Austin Metcalf, and Hunter Metcalf.

00:55:20.520 Well, that's new, yet that the identical twin was somehow involved in the altercation. Why does that

00:55:26.080 matter, he writes, because facts matter. Accuracy matters. Context matters. In America, every person

00:55:31.680 is entitled to a fair trial, and that requires the public to understand the facts as they're

00:55:34.780 presented, not as they're simplified for headlines. I mean, the question I have, Dave, is if Hunter

00:55:41.580 was involved, why didn't Carmelo Anthony mention that at any point? Why isn't that in the police

00:55:47.000 report from any independent witness? And they spoke with a lot of them. Nobody said that Austin,

00:55:52.900 the identical twin was anywhere near this actual altercation, though he was there in time to hold

00:55:58.760 his dying twin brother in his arms. Such a tragedy, Megan. And what you can say in the

00:56:03.960 court of public opinion is a lot broader than what you can say in court. So they're not going

00:56:07.860 to be able to use that as a defense. But there is a gag order, as you correctly said. And because

00:56:12.420 there's a gag order, I think this guy could be sanctioned because the gag order applies to the

00:56:16.800 family and to those who speak for the family. So he's in a slight gray area. He's going to probably

00:56:23.200 say that he is totally independent. He has First Amendment rights, but it does seem like he has

00:56:28.700 some connection to the family. If that's the case, then he could be sanctioned by the court.

00:56:34.040 Yeah, we did look it up. And per the local CBS outlet, they write that this gag order does

00:56:40.140 explicitly extend to family members and those who speak on behalf of families. And that's how this

00:56:46.660 guy has been describing him all along himself. He also went on on Monday to say the following,

00:56:51.340 write the following. As the trial approaches, we know there will be falsehoods, misconceptions,

00:56:56.480 misinformation, and outside noise surrounding this case. Yes, we do know that because you're

00:57:00.400 doing it, Dominique. But the Next Generation Action Network remains focused on one truth.

00:57:07.020 Rights are not just for some. They're for everyone. Due process is not just for certain

00:57:13.560 people. A fair trial is not just for certain communities. Phil, they are getting ready to

00:57:20.360 play the race card and they're going to play it hard. Well, they're not getting ready to,

00:57:25.380 they already are. And here's the thing, he's not wrong. I mean, everybody has a right to a fair

00:57:31.280 trial. Of course, the defendant, the accused person always has a right to a fair trial. But

00:57:35.780 as we've talked about on our show, Megan, the public at large has rights too when it comes

00:57:42.840 to trials. And the public, the community, the citizens of any jurisdiction or a state, they are

00:57:49.060 always themselves collectively victims anytime a crime is committed. That's why indictments end

00:57:56.200 with the language such as these actions are against the good order, peace, and dignity of

00:58:01.600 the state and things like that. So the public has a right to a fair trial. And so that means

00:58:06.840 you have a right to a jury that is not tampered with. You have a right to a jury that can walk

00:58:12.760 into and out of a courthouse every day without being blasted by protesters with agendas. And I'm

00:58:20.080 talking about protesters for either side. The jury is unfortunately going to have to be sequestered

00:58:25.240 in this case because otherwise, honestly, I think that you have the real risk of the jurors

00:58:30.720 themselves being intimidated. They may feel that if they don't vote a certain way that somehow

00:58:36.200 they can be threatened or otherwise put in some type of jeopardy. So we've got to make sure

00:58:41.700 this judge protects the jury. And I think he will because the judge seems to be no nonsense. He's

00:58:47.180 reminding the jurors, for example, that if they talk about the case, if they research the case,

00:58:52.800 they can be fined, held in contempt. And he's warning them, do not violate my orders. And the

00:58:58.220 same, I think, can be held true for the judge's warning to those who violate his order to not

00:59:05.140 tamper with this jury. Megan, I want to follow up on that.

00:59:08.940 There's an allegation of tampering.

00:59:10.700 I'm going to give you the floor, but let me just fill that out because I teased it.

00:59:14.900 There's an independent journalist named Sarah Fields, who weirdly was targeted by Carmelo's 0.72

00:59:19.000 and Anthony's family early on.

00:59:21.320 In this case, they didn't like her reporting on it.

00:59:23.340 It's like, she's entitled to report on it.

00:59:25.320 We're all entitled to report.

00:59:26.200 That's how this works. 0.79

00:59:27.260 In any event, she was in the courtroom for the first day of jury selection yesterday.

00:59:30.920 And she reported the following, quote,

00:59:34.720 I witnessed sheriff deputies escorting an African-American woman out of the courthouse

00:59:40.260 hallway. She was wearing a pink shirt with lace sleeves. Carmelo's supporters were wearing 1.00

00:59:45.140 purple and pink. Deputies were accusing her of jury tampering. I later learned she was

00:59:52.680 allegedly connected to the Anthony family and had reportedly been caught recording members

00:59:58.760 of the jury pool. We haven't seen any more reporting on it than that, Ashley, but that

01:00:03.860 that would be hard. No, to be videotaping members of the jury pool to possibly what follow up with

01:00:09.620 them later to see, you know, to pressure them to do something else. Who knows? Right. And that's

01:00:13.560 going to backfire. I mean, if there are, if it's members of Anthony's family or his supporters

01:00:18.180 that are doing this to the jurors, the jurors are going to feel uncomfortable. And that's definitely

01:00:21.760 going to translate back in that jury room. They're going to all feel that. Um, I wanted to follow up

01:00:26.240 on Phil's point, cause I think it's one of the best points, um, about this, these, these people

01:00:31.260 that are really tampering and really violating the gag order, it's going to result in sequestration.

01:00:35.780 That's what the judge is going to end up having to do. The more that we have these falsehoods that

01:00:39.980 are tweeted out and we have people trying to make this about white supremacy when it's not

01:00:43.300 and trying to just really ignite anger and violence on the street there and infect the

01:00:47.880 jury with that, what's the result? The result's going to be sequestration. And what happens when

01:00:52.000 we have sequestration? We have a jury that is much more likely to convict. There's tons of

01:00:56.980 studies on that. You sequester a jury. Yes, you sequester a jury and they work stronger together

01:01:02.940 as a block. And there's a lot less likelihood of any dissent. So if you had a holdout, for example,

01:01:09.000 they're going to be much more likely to all work together because they start working as a unit.

01:01:13.640 They get up in the morning as a unit. They eat together as a unit, all their meals. So they

01:01:17.000 become more of a unit. And there's a lot of studies that that is way more pro-prosecution

01:01:21.820 than pro-defense. So as the defense, we always argue against that. We don't want sequestration.

01:01:25.800 Yeah, Dave is the former prosecutor's like, what's wrong with that?

01:01:28.620 Well, the other part of it is that the jurors want to go home.

01:01:33.540 So they're likely to say, OK, fine, I'll go along with the group, with the majority.

01:01:37.520 Just go. Let me go home to my family.

01:01:40.020 What would you do, Dave, if you if you walked into a courthouse for an explosive case like this? 0.82

01:01:45.580 I mean, for sure, this is a very, very hot case where they've already injected race. 0.62

01:01:50.340 I mean, I mentioned this guy, Dominique Alexander, because he's been all over the place. 0.92

01:01:53.000 The family hired him. He's not just like some friend who's like piping off on his own. The

01:01:57.600 family hired him. This is early on in this case. I'm going to play this and I'm going to show you

01:02:01.040 what's happening outside the courthouse this week. He got out there on April 17th, 2025. This is

01:02:07.380 right after it happened and gave a presser. And Carmelo Anthony's mom is right behind him as he's

01:02:13.200 doing this nonsense. Watch and listen to SOT10. Black people in America, while the current

01:02:19.860 occupant sits at 1600 Pennsylvania. Black people in America don't have to pull the race 0.79

01:02:27.380 card. It's what we live as a reality every day. It's what we have to teach our children.

01:02:35.220 We don't want to, but we have to. We don't like to, but if we want to sleep at night,

01:02:43.600 we got to. I ain't pulling no race card. I live it. I'm reminded all the time that I'm a black

01:02:53.420 man in America. Oh, Lord. All right. So we had that. And there's a bunch of those, by the way,

01:02:59.160 we could spend the next half an hour of me playing Dominique Alexander and his racial grievances.

01:03:04.080 On behalf of the family, for listening audience, the mom and the dad of Carmelo Anthony are holding

01:03:07.160 each other behind him, listening to all of that. Obviously fine with it. Now you show up to be a

01:03:12.260 jury. And of course, it starts as a jury pool. Everybody's been there. You get the summons to

01:03:17.700 appear for jury service and you show up. You're a potential juror until you're actually selected.

01:03:21.980 And that's what they're doing this week. And this is what they see. Here's thought five.

01:03:25.480 Okay. There's that. There's protesters, well, supporters for Austin Metcalfe as well. We've

01:03:46.980 got video here of their outside where they have a large banner and their banner reads

01:03:52.880 Justin for Austin Metcalf, which seems pretty benign, but I declare, I decree Carmelo Anthony

01:03:59.500 is free. Not even sure what that means, but this is what the jury is going to have to walk through.

01:04:03.340 All the jury pool members understanding this is like the gauntlet that's going to await them.

01:04:07.760 And to telegraphing, there's extra scrutiny on this case. You're going to get it. You're going

01:04:13.480 to get it either way. So what do you do as the prosecutor or the defense attorney in that

01:04:17.540 situation? Well, the judge issued the gag order, but you can only do so much because people had

01:04:22.720 the First Amendment right, but you want to at least keep the protesters far enough away from

01:04:27.260 the courthouse where they don't intimidate the jurors. You know, you saw this also in the Karen

01:04:31.140 Reid case. You had all these people wearing pink in solidarity with Karen Reid. And it's hard to

01:04:35.760 argue that it doesn't affect the jurors. Those jurors have to go home to that community and

01:04:40.420 they're going to have to answer to their neighbors why they found the beloved defendant guilty. And

01:04:44.820 so that's why it is tough. It's intimidating. And judges can only do so much with gag orders

01:04:50.500 and orders of removing people from the courthouse a certain number of feet.

01:04:55.180 But ultimately, because we have the First Amendment,

01:04:57.340 it is something that prosecutors fear so much, jury nullification.

01:05:00.600 I think that's what the defense is hoping for here,

01:05:02.960 that even though the evidence here is really strong,

01:05:05.000 and really, there's such a weak claim of self-defense,

01:05:07.300 you can't take out a knife and stab someone to death for pushing you,

01:05:11.260 and you can't be the instigator and then claim self-defense.

01:05:14.540 But you still have the prospect of jury nullification.

01:05:17.960 We may have seen it in the O.J. Simpson case, and we could see it here.

01:05:20.500 the saying the little chance always remind me of back in i think it was 2011 they sent me down to

01:05:28.720 texas to cover the indictment of tom delay who was in the republican majority leadership and he got

01:05:35.380 indicted for i think money laundering around his campaign funds something something involving

01:05:39.540 finances and um they they were protesting and they were chanting behind me and i remember the anchor

01:05:44.960 i think it was shep smith said what are they chanting behind you megan and i was very serious

01:05:49.500 back then and not at all really in touch with my sense of humor but i remember repeating they are

01:05:54.880 chanting tom delay is a stinker he'll be headed to the clinker back to you show

01:06:00.680 and he he was convicted so they weren't they weren't wrong the power of a local d.a so are

01:06:09.600 we all in it yeah it's yeah the power of a local district or no you took down the powerful speaker

01:06:14.480 of the house yeah that that's true yeah well so are we all in agreement that carmelo anthony's

01:06:20.160 got a very difficult task in front of him that lawyer like the odds are overwhelmingly that

01:06:26.660 he's going to be convicted i don't know i'm concerned about a stealth juror that's what

01:06:31.640 i'm afraid of you know we the judge asked the lady who got them on tape well the see the judge

01:06:36.780 asked uh the entire panel an interesting question uh the judge says despite our flaws we are the

01:06:43.120 greatest country in the world. Do you agree? Several jurors apparently disagreed. Reporting

01:06:49.760 is that a few potential jurors say that we are not the only great country. And one juror says

01:06:55.380 our country has a long and complicated history. And so this is a relatively small community. And

01:07:00.940 so what I wonder, I don't think there's going to be jury nullification. I don't think there's going

01:07:05.600 to be an acquittal. But I think the more likely scenario would be a hung jury if you have one or

01:07:12.460 two people that intentionally sort of work their way on to that jury by not answering questions

01:07:18.500 truthfully just so that they can engineer a certain outcome. If you have one or two stealth

01:07:23.600 jurors, we could see potentially a hung jury. By the way, what did you make of that? Yeah,

01:07:30.240 go ahead. I would argue that would also still be jury nullification, because even if you have one

01:07:34.140 juror who's hung on this, it's hard to ignore the evidence. The evidence is what it is. And the only

01:07:40.240 way in my mind that you would find him not to be to be not guilty or to be hung as a hung juror

01:07:46.280 would be saying that I'm going to ignore the evidence. I'm going to ignore the law and self

01:07:50.240 defense. And I'm going to refuse to go along with the conviction because I don't like the direction

01:07:55.760 our country is going. I don't like the fact that you have a defendant who is in a position of being

01:08:02.740 really in a state in their mind where they are the victim, not the other way around.

01:08:08.600 Do we have, I am interested in that judge's question and where, like, where did that come from?

01:08:13.680 That seems like an odd jury question to me, but I could be wrong.

01:08:17.140 But what did you make, what do you think the, this is an important question, Ashley, and I just lost it, about the self-defense claim and how he's going to argue that he had a reasonable fear that somebody was coming for him.

01:08:33.040 He's got, oh, I know what it was.

01:08:34.460 doesn't carmelo anthony have to testify oh yeah i mean he doesn't have to have to but he i mean

01:08:42.640 if i were his lawyer i would tell him you got you can't have a self-defense claim without testifying

01:08:47.460 i mean technically he doesn't have to but he's never going to be able to be successful on self

01:08:51.220 defense if he doesn't testify and i think a lot of the um you know the things that we're seeing

01:08:55.280 about this being white supremacy or this being racist is really going to backfire even if we

01:08:59.300 have a stealth juror because these people, if they're walking past all of these signs and

01:09:05.060 they're seeing all this protesting on a daily basis as the jurors, they're expecting something

01:09:09.180 significant to come out in that courtroom. And, you know, jurors, Megan, always think that we're

01:09:13.440 hiding something from them. That's every single juror I've ever had has always said, we feel like

01:09:17.580 we didn't get the whole story. Right. We are. I mean, we're hiding unreliable evidence. And so

01:09:21.320 if they see that and then they go in and they don't hear a single word about racism where there's no

01:09:26.700 evidence of racism, they're going to be left remaining thinking, where, you know, where is

01:09:31.280 that? Why are we not hearing that? And I think they're going to hold that against the defense

01:09:34.940 if the defense, because the defense does there, if they present an evidence, present a defense,

01:09:39.480 they've got to present some evidence of that defense, even if they do it through questioning

01:09:42.920 the state's witnesses. And the jury's going to want to hear something, you know, they're going

01:09:47.540 to want to hear some proof that this is racist or that this really was self-defense. So I think

01:09:52.180 they've got a really uphill battle. What do you make of that question, Phil, that you just told

01:09:56.780 us about that the judge asked the jurors? It's an odd question. I wonder if it was something that

01:10:03.960 the parties agreed upon to have the judge to ask them. Normally, judges, if they're going to

01:10:12.140 ask questions, it's going to be very basic things. And then you're going to let the individual

01:10:17.240 lawyers do their own questioning during the voir dire, the jury selection process.

01:10:23.140 I don't understand, quite frankly, where it came from.

01:10:26.540 I agree with you, Megan.

01:10:27.520 It is odd, but it did do one thing.

01:10:30.740 It elicited people's opinions sort of about the state of the nation.

01:10:36.620 And I think if the judge is trying to flesh out whether there's any racial bias on behalf

01:10:42.720 of any of the jurors because jury selection is supposed to weed out all bias, including racial

01:10:48.480 bias. If that was the purpose of the question, I think maybe he did get at some of it, but it's a

01:10:54.280 little bit vague. I think it was a strange question. I would not have wanted it asked if I

01:10:59.960 were the prosecutor or the defense counsel in this case, because I really don't understand

01:11:04.720 what it means. And I think in order to get to what it means, you're going to have to ask too

01:11:08.480 It's like a proxy for are you a Republican or a Democrat?

01:11:12.360 Exactly.

01:11:12.820 I mean, that's I feel like.

01:11:14.740 But are you allowed to ask that flat out, Dave?

01:11:17.960 Like when you do what here, can you say what's your party registration?

01:11:21.000 If a judge allows you to do so, judges get more discretion in the party.

01:11:25.980 So this won't be overturned on appeal based on the judge's question.

01:11:29.340 But it is surprising when the judge asks for it.

01:11:32.200 I like to push it as far as until the judge reigns us back in where you ask, like, what news outlets do you watch?

01:11:38.420 Knowing that if you are a consumer of Fox News or the Megyn Kelly show, you probably think differently than someone who's watching MS now.

01:11:45.600 And so that's a way to get at it.

01:11:47.700 But the judge did the work for the parties because that that question will elicit those kinds of answers.

01:11:53.860 My big concern is not really what the judge asked.

01:11:56.720 I just want to make sure I hope that the judge allowed the parties to use their for cause challenges,

01:12:03.340 Meaning that when the lawyers try to knock off jurors, they have a certain amount of of what are called peremptory challenges, which means I can get a jury out for any reason, as long as it's not a bad reason.

01:12:14.200 It's not because of race, et cetera. I hope that the judge would allow the parties to invoke what's called a for cause challenge.

01:12:23.380 I mean, I'm going to strike that juror because there's a good reason for it based on their answer to the judge's question.

01:12:28.980 As long as that was done properly, I don't think that an appeals court will overturn a conviction here.

01:12:35.480 I think if you really wanted to get to somebody's party affiliation, I mean, you could do so much.

01:12:40.160 You could you could be like, how do you feel about the following like four things?

01:12:45.560 The color orange, gold, McDonald's and the ballroom.

01:12:51.260 You can look it up.

01:12:54.040 We should just ask people what kind of bumper stickers they had on their car.

01:12:57.380 I don't think people really drive around with bumper stickers nearly as much as they used to.

01:13:02.040 But that was a good way because it seems like people who are inclined to use bumper stickers, they're either going to be on the far left or the far right.

01:13:12.180 And so I think that's a good way.

01:13:14.000 But I think the judge is honestly, to me, I think he's trying to weed out the possibility of people who have ulterior motives for trying to get on that jury.

01:13:24.040 That's what I think.

01:13:25.140 Yeah.

01:13:25.620 Yeah. My favorite bumper sticker ever is it read, I want to die quietly in my sleep like my grandpa, not kicking and screaming like the passengers in his car.

01:13:36.980 Oh, no. I've seen that. You know, Megan, nowadays when you do jury selection, you go online immediately and you look for their social media posts.

01:13:45.780 So you may not even need to ask them questions. Yeah. You go on their Facebook and you see, oh, this person likes.

01:13:50.960 It's true. It's not hard to figure it out.

01:13:53.600 Yeah, that's gold.

01:13:56.420 God, yeah, I was practicing back in the dark ages

01:13:59.180 when we didn't have social media.

01:14:00.500 So yeah, that's, you're right.

01:14:01.460 What a great tool.

01:14:01.980 We can see how often they vote.

01:14:03.440 I mean, all those things.

01:14:05.420 That is so helpful. 0.77

01:14:07.300 Let's talk about this twit, Mackenzie Chirilla.

01:14:12.780 Have you guys watched this movie yet on Netflix? 0.83

01:14:16.680 Oh yeah, we did a show on it last week.

01:14:18.560 It's nuts.

01:14:20.720 It's called The Crash

01:14:22.120 And it's about this young woman, Mackenzie Schirrilla, from Strongsville, Ohio.

01:14:27.560 And she was dating, she was in high school.

01:14:30.420 She was dating this young man, and he was in her car, and so was his friend.

01:14:37.780 Her boyfriend was Dominic Russo.

01:14:39.580 The friend was Davian Flanagan.

01:14:42.540 And she crashed her car.

01:14:45.940 She was driving it.

01:14:46.980 She was the only one wearing a seatbelt.

01:14:48.720 The car had been going 100 miles an hour.

01:14:52.120 in the early morning hours one day, and she crashed it into some structure. Both boys died.

01:15:01.820 She was the only one who lived, and again, the only one with the seatbelt. The car is,

01:15:05.520 I mean, in tatters. There's like nothing left to it. And this new Netflix show, The Crash,

01:15:12.420 shows a bit about how things got very complicated around this seemingly just awful car crash

01:15:21.660 very quickly here's a bit from the trailer 24a that split second changed all of our lives forever

01:15:29.040 it didn't add up it was hard to comprehend that she could just drive into a wall 0.67

01:15:43.920 i would never see her purposely wanting to hurt them this was clearly a toxic relationship 0.99

01:15:51.660 We needed to get a full picture of who Mackenzie Schirrilla was. 1.00

01:15:57.560 You can go f*** yourself. 1.00

01:16:00.920 The most significant piece of evidence. 1.00

01:16:03.980 There was no breaking.

01:16:06.800 This was not an accident.

01:16:18.360 What took place inside that car. 1.00

01:16:21.660 and on top of all that it's come out that she was extremely abusive toward her boyfriend

01:16:33.600 verbally abusive and possibly more than that um she was ultimately convicted

01:16:38.920 was it it was murder right she was convicted of murder uh of both of these boys and she went away

01:16:46.440 to jail where she's been for over a year. And now we get reports that, first of all,

01:16:53.780 one appeal has failed, but she's pursuing a separate appeal now that is going to go up to

01:16:58.660 the Ohio Supreme Court. There is a question about whether she was adequately assisted

01:17:04.880 by counsel in meeting a filing deadline for, among other things. And she's only, what,

01:17:11.560 17 years old. She was 17 when she did this. So she's been sentenced to life in prison,

01:17:17.460 but with a minimum of 15 years before she can be considered for parole. So she could get parole.

01:17:24.120 But the news is not only is she inching closer to an appeal or actually having an appeal heard,

01:17:30.140 but the latest drop shows that her behavior in jail, you guys, has been absolutely awful.

01:17:37.960 Law and Crime was reporting on this, and she has been violating the rules in jail seemingly every other day.

01:17:46.280 It varies from more minor things like cinching or somehow tailoring her jail-issued sweatshirt so that it's tight and kind of saucy looking on her, which is not allowed, 1.00

01:18:00.800 to having video calls with a woman 0.98

01:18:04.620 in which they show each other their breasts and sex toys 0.95

01:18:08.900 to provocative behavior with the guards, 0.99

01:18:12.840 raising her voice to the guards,

01:18:14.380 being extremely nasty to the guards, 0.93

01:18:16.460 according to the guards.

01:18:19.160 And I guess just generally behaving badly

01:18:22.620 and stealing things. 0.99

01:18:23.500 She's accused of stealing things 1.00

01:18:24.560 like from the commissary and so on.

01:18:26.360 She denies that.

01:18:28.120 But law and crime and Anjanette Levy

01:18:30.280 was interviewing a guy who advises people

01:18:33.140 who are going to jail on how to behave.

01:18:34.580 And his number one takeaway was, don't do that.

01:18:37.980 That stuff will all factor into whether or not

01:18:40.420 you're going to get parole.

01:18:41.980 As I think she and her family are convinced, Ashley,

01:18:44.520 that she will.

01:18:45.480 Like they think she's in there wrongly.

01:18:47.180 They maintain this was an accident.

01:18:49.540 She's got some disorder relating to her blood pressure

01:18:53.160 that causes her to black out.

01:18:54.680 And that's what happened here.

01:18:56.000 And that she's really just this sweet,

01:18:57.920 misunderstood teenager.

01:18:58.960 You hit the nail on the head. Dave and I had a psychologist on last week, and we got to ask

01:19:04.720 that psychologist to kind of analyze Mackenzie. And it was interesting because she had actually

01:19:10.040 listened to hundreds of hours of jail calls. And so especially between the family, between her

01:19:14.960 parents and her. And it was really interesting because she really blamed the family and said

01:19:20.700 that, you know, that this girl, I mean, obviously Mackenzie is to blame, but that the parents had

01:19:24.540 never taught her consequences and that she really didn't understand consequences. And I think that's

01:19:28.940 what we're seeing now. Even in jail, she doesn't get it. She doesn't get consequences. She can't

01:19:34.840 follow the rules. She can't conform to behavior. And it's really going to hurt her when she does 0.98

01:19:39.020 go up for parole because I don't think anybody's letting her out anytime soon. Although I have my

01:19:43.540 opinion on whether or not she did have good trial counsel. I think she didn't because they had what's

01:19:48.340 called a bench trial instead of a jury trial. And you never waive that. You don't waive a jury

01:19:53.120 trial. I mean, unless you have some really, really, really good reasons to do that. And so

01:19:56.960 you know she wasn't likable she was not likable but at least you can maybe get a hold out like

01:20:01.420 phil was talking about earlier maybe you got a stealth jury at least it's a chance where you

01:20:05.440 know this judge i mean she wasn't likable to the judge she was she wasn't going to be likable to 1.00

01:20:09.040 a jury um and then they had this pots defense you mentioned you know this blood pressure thing

01:20:13.280 which was just crap honestly and it was like she'd come up with it last minute and whispered it to

01:20:18.340 her mom hey you know maybe i can get off if i say i had you know a pots episode where it made no 0.99

01:20:23.840 sense because if you had POTS, you wouldn't have the gas pedal fully depressed. And to go a hundred

01:20:28.100 miles an hour, you had to literally have the gas pedal all the way down. So, I mean, it's just a

01:20:32.640 hot mess. It is literally, the girl is just a hot mess and two kids lost their lives. And it is

01:20:37.220 awful because she clearly drove them into a wall. I have to say, Phil, to me, this person is a

01:20:43.700 sociopath. She killed two innocent boys, didn't have any guilt over it from what anyone could 0.88

01:20:50.000 see. And that's exactly the kind of person I never want to be released. It's one thing if

01:20:54.840 you're a sociopath who somehow has learned to manage your absolute lack of empathy or emotion 0.90

01:21:00.240 and you're not running around hurting people. But if you're a sociopath and you've murdered 1.00

01:21:04.080 two people, you should stay in jail forever because you cannot be trusted. What's going 0.99

01:21:08.400 to stop you from murdering the next couple? So my scientific wild ass guess is that she 0.99

01:21:14.720 probably does have some sociopathic tendencies, maybe an outright disorder. I also see 0.98

01:21:20.740 a healthy dose of narcissism. You can see that in the social media posts. You can see that in

01:21:27.400 the reporting by our friends at Law and Crime related to what she is doing while she's incarcerated,

01:21:34.700 not obeying the rules. It's all about her, her, her. But there's also another piece of this that

01:21:39.900 we see oftentimes, I know the three of us see it in our practices with young people, sometimes they,

01:21:45.900 well, oftentimes, if not always, they don't understand, they can't comprehend risk,

01:21:50.960 the element of risk or the idea of it until the human brain is like 25 or 26 years old. And when

01:21:57.240 you see young people abusing substances and things like we've seen in this case, it can actually

01:22:02.780 delay that development of the brain and the ability to understand risk. And to follow up

01:22:09.680 on something Ashley said about whether or not there's going to be a new trial or there should

01:22:14.640 be based on what we call ineffective assistance of counsel, I agree that waiving a jury trial

01:22:20.080 is always a gamble because you only have to then, if you're the prosecutor, you only have to prove

01:22:24.520 it to one person versus 12. But there's another piece of this. If you're going to present a

01:22:29.060 medical defense, which is what apparently this was, they did not have a medical expert. So I

01:22:36.100 don't know how you could effectively try to present such a defense without having an expert.

01:22:43.360 And so I think that if there is going to be a new trial, it would have to be a ruling by the

01:22:50.320 appeals courts based on whether or not the trial counsel was effective. And if she has ineffective

01:22:57.400 assistance of counsel that violates her sixth amendment but on the facts of the case i think

01:23:02.220 the evidence is very clear the conviction should stand yeah and here's what they were trying to

01:23:08.160 avoid she's she can do the i'm sweet i'm innocent i'm only 17 act for a while and then you see some

01:23:14.620 of the tapes that they had thanks to the social media recordings and or also just recordings on

01:23:19.260 her boyfriend's phone here's a sample of how that would have gone over it's that 24b

01:23:24.440 Dom, open the door

01:23:27.240 Kenzie, I can't open the door

01:23:29.840 I can't sit here and fight

01:23:30.960 We gotta go to dinner

01:23:32.500 If I can see my grandparents

01:23:34.180 You're not going to dinner if you don't open the door

01:23:37.140 I'm gonna let you know that right now

01:23:38.600 You're gonna come open this door right now 0.99

01:23:40.460 Or there's gonna be a serious fucking problem 0.99

01:23:43.000 Okay, ready? 0.99

01:23:46.180 I'm gonna count your time

01:23:46.980 The door's gonna open, okay?

01:23:48.880 You're gonna open the door 1.00

01:23:50.080 Like a little fucking bitch 1.00

01:23:53.120 Step away from the door. Maybe I can come outside and talk first. 1.00

01:23:56.120 No, we're not fighting outside. You're going to open the door right now.

01:24:00.700 Why are we fighting outside?

01:24:02.160 You have one minute now, actually. 0.73

01:24:03.080 Look, wait, now my mom's trying to calm me. I got it.

01:24:05.840 No, if you hang up on me, we're done. I'm leaving.

01:24:08.840 Mackenzie, there's nothing I can do.

01:24:10.500 There is. Stop being a little bitch- 1.00

01:24:13.100 I can't let you in my house with how you're acting. 1.00

01:24:15.360 It's as simple as that.

01:24:16.840 Okay, I'm going to break into your house, then.

01:24:19.620 Dude, what the actual time?

01:24:23.120 If you do not let me in the house that I sleep in every night, we are done.

01:24:29.020 Some of the text messages that were introduced in the trial were her writing to Dom,

01:24:34.860 I told you it's my way or the highway.

01:24:37.080 I would watch your back from now on and your house and your car and your life and any of your friends.

01:24:44.380 And Dom responds, Kenzie, this isn't right and you know it.

01:24:47.240 Just two, three days ago, they released additional texts. This is from March 2022, in which the boyfriend allegedly texted that Mackenzie, quote, hit me and, quote, tried to throw a rock at me. Later that month, he also warned her that she was, quote, driving like a maniac, according to the documents.

01:25:11.560 I mean, they had this girl dead to rights, Dave.

01:25:16.440 That's, I think, why they decided to go for the judge and maybe just throw themselves on the mercy of like an older man who might have mercy on this 17-year-old girl in the way juries probably wouldn't.

01:25:28.640 I don't know.

01:25:29.160 That's my guess, that they thought this older male judge might feel some speck of empathy for her or might bite on the blood pressure thing.

01:25:36.880 But her her bad behavior in the prison dovetails perfectly perfectly with her bad behavior in life.

01:25:43.020 And I would be remiss if I didn't point out it's her parents fault. Yes, it is.

01:25:47.900 The mother is a complete enabler. If you watch this show on Netflix, the mother and the father, the father.

01:25:54.020 I mean, the only ones who came out, too. Yeah.

01:25:55.960 The only ones who came off worse than Mackenzie in that show were her parents who just enabled her, explained away all of her issues.

01:26:03.280 they came across so terribly and they're still standing by their daughter claiming that she is

01:26:09.780 innocent and that the system is rigged against her because apparently the boyfriend's family

01:26:14.480 are well connected. It's awful. One small correction. The trial judge was an older woman

01:26:19.420 and perhaps she thought that she would get a better shape from her. But, you know, although 0.93

01:26:24.200 the trial judge was tough and she dressed down Mackenzie's mother when Mackenzie's mother tried

01:26:29.380 to explain it all away,

01:26:31.680 she still only gave her 15 years to life concurrent.

01:26:35.860 She could have given her consecutive,

01:26:38.280 but she did it concurrent for the two deaths.

01:26:40.500 And that means she could still conceivably get out

01:26:42.760 on parole after 15 years in,

01:26:45.320 although the way she has been acting,

01:26:47.460 she's trying to be an influencer behind bars. 0.91

01:26:49.860 I think that means she's going to stay in. 0.99

01:26:52.960 Yeah, I mean, she could be out in her young 30s,

01:26:55.540 which is shocking having taken two innocent lives. 1.00

01:26:58.640 If she behaved.

01:26:59.380 All right, I want to keep going.

01:27:00.560 If she behaved. 1.00

01:27:01.120 Yeah, if she behaved, which is just she's incapable of.

01:27:04.600 I want to do Henry Novak next.

01:27:06.540 Actually, we'll take a quick break and then we'll come back and we'll discuss that case

01:27:09.760 in which the family's now speaking out.

01:27:11.940 And finally, finally, we have the video of his last moments viewer warning.

01:27:17.880 It's coming up next.

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01:28:48.680 It says it.

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01:29:01.740 Back with me now, Phil, Ashley, and Dave from the MK True Crime Show.

01:29:05.640 Go and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

01:29:07.580 Just type in MK True Crime and you will see their show.

01:29:10.560 Hit subscribe to get all of their great legal content on the best cases that you're interested in.

01:29:15.960 This one over in the UK has been horrific.

01:29:19.940 This poor kid, Henry Nowak, was on his way home in the evening and was attacked by a man who happens to be Sikh. 0.87

01:29:30.020 And it is relevant because he's walking around London with an enormous sword or three on him.

01:29:38.980 We have video that we released exclusively last week or before the verdict that showed him on another day walking with a sword that was as long as most people's leg just casually affixed to his hip walking down the streets of London. 0.75

01:29:53.800 You know, it's this is a lot to allow somebody in the name of religion.

01:29:57.840 And this guy had multiple weapons on him where you're not allowed to conceal, carry or otherwise carry a gun.

01:30:04.060 This is the video showing now.

01:30:05.420 He's got like a sword, like one of the swords that you use when you're sword fighting in college athletics.

01:30:11.980 And he's casually just sort of walking around London with it.

01:30:15.640 We now have a picture of the actual sword that he used to stab Henry.

01:30:19.980 But they had some sort of, I don't know, a confrontation.

01:30:24.280 Henry said something to him, something like, you're a bad man, aren't you?

01:30:28.940 And it turns out that this guy, the defendant, was saying, his name is Vikram Digwa, I'm a bad man.

01:30:36.480 Like he was asserting it affirmatively, and he stabbed Henry.

01:30:39.860 He stabbed him five times. 0.90

01:30:41.620 He stabbed him in the lung, and he stabbed him in his legs as he was running away.

01:30:48.920 So this poor kid tried to run, and eventually they called 911, which is 999 over in Great Britain.

01:30:55.940 and a witness said that this kid had been stabbed.

01:31:00.180 When they got there, they treated Henry

01:31:02.380 like he was the assailant.

01:31:03.580 And this victim, who was fine

01:31:05.420 because Henry hadn't laid a hand on him,

01:31:07.500 said he was the victim of a racial crime.

01:31:09.860 There'd been profiling and he was hurt

01:31:12.540 and didn't say, I stabbed him.

01:31:15.700 Henry, while dying, said, I've been stabbed.

01:31:18.720 And these police officers refused to believe him.

01:31:23.600 Within minutes, he'd be dead, drowning on his own blood in his lungs. 0.85

01:31:28.060 It's despicable.

01:31:29.420 Every single cop on that scene should be fired.

01:31:32.840 Vikram Digwa has been found guilty, thank God, of murdering Henry.

01:31:37.400 And all along, they have not shown us the videotape.

01:31:41.020 There's videotape because Henry was videotaping it.

01:31:43.660 And then there's also body cam tape.

01:31:45.960 They have refused to release it.

01:31:48.420 Henry's dad, Mark, right before they released the tape, came out with some scathing comments.

01:31:54.660 Here's a flavor of that in SOT 6.

01:31:56.920 Henry had been stabbed multiple times, and as his chest filled with blood, he tried to escape.

01:32:04.820 He was chased, abused, and filmed by Vikram Digwa and others.

01:32:11.200 With his final words, he told officers that he could not breathe.

01:32:15.180 He told them he had been stabbed.

01:32:18.420 In fact, Henry told officers that he could not breathe nine times.

01:32:25.200 He told them he had been stabbed four times.

01:32:29.000 The response from one officer was, I don't think you have, mate.

01:32:34.780 The police have said they were misled by the murderer

01:32:37.940 and that the scene when they arrived was complex.

01:32:42.200 Unfortunately, it seems to us the truth is much simpler.

01:32:48.420 The police were told by our son himself and by a member of the public who called 999 that they heard someone shout that they had been stabbed.

01:32:58.920 But the police did not believe them.

01:33:03.360 Henry was pulled across the gravel, his hands forced behind his back and he was placed in handcuffs.

01:33:09.440 Instead of being treated as a dying victim, police formally arrested Henry for assault and read him his rights.

01:33:16.820 That was the last thing he heard. Henry did not die with dignity. He did not die with the care

01:33:26.060 he deserved. He lost consciousness before anyone believed him. The way he was treated was inhumane

01:33:33.880 and degrading. Wow, that dad's got superhero strength to stand there and be able to say all

01:33:40.720 of that. The mom is standing next to him crying. Henry's little sister standing there upset next

01:33:46.120 I mean, I just it's it's the worst nightmare. Then they did release the footage and it is it is

01:33:54.540 disturbing. I found this genuinely disturbing. You can hear his his pleas for help. And this

01:33:59.860 like completely callous police force that just refuses to take it seriously for for no reason

01:34:06.800 we can discern other than my judgment, their presumptions about the respective races and who

01:34:13.900 must be evil and who isn't. And they had it exactly wrong. So viewer warning on Sot8 here.

01:34:21.680 What's your name, mate? Huh? Has anyone been hurt other than him? Yeah, me. He's grabbed my brother.

01:34:30.480 He's took my turban off. So I grabbed my head. Are you injured? Yeah, yeah. I've got swollen

01:34:35.120 eye. All right. Just step back a little bit for me. Someone flagged these down.

01:34:39.000 Right, let's get you out of there shall we?

01:34:45.000 I was in bed to sleep.

01:34:48.000 Grab his other arm.

01:34:52.000 What's happened to you right?

01:34:58.000 You've been stabbed, whereabouts?

01:35:02.000 I don't think you have mate.

01:35:05.000 I don't think you have mate.

01:35:08.000 Put the hand in the cuff, mate.

01:35:17.000 I can't breathe!

01:35:21.000 I can't breathe!

01:35:26.000 He's saying he's been stabbed so let's just check him.

01:35:31.000 Where do you think he's been stabbed? In the face?

01:35:34.000 Oh no, but we have to check, don't we?

01:35:36.000 Keep you on your side mate, you've had a red reef then, same to him, keeping him on his

01:35:47.380 side. We were sat up when we had him here but he didn't like it. What's your name mate?

01:35:54.380 By the moment you are under arrest, that's for assault so you do not have to say anything

01:35:59.020 may harm a defence if you do not mention when questioned, it's obvious we should later rely

01:36:02.240 anything you do say may be given in evidence, alright?

01:36:05.240 He's going to be sick, I think.

01:36:18.240 Don't want you to call it.

01:36:23.240 Yeah, we've got this male, he's been beat up.

01:36:27.240 Are we able to get an ambulance, please?

01:36:30.240 his pupils aren't even reacting

01:36:33.620 that's so awful he was he was dying and now finally finally there is a question about what

01:36:45.140 should happen to the police officers the case has been referred to the police watchdog the

01:36:50.920 independent office for police conduct uh the temporary deputy chief constable robert france

01:36:57.940 has apologized, saying,

01:37:00.140 I'm sorry that Henry couldn't be saved that night.

01:37:03.700 I'm sorry that he was handcuffed and arrested

01:37:06.080 in the moments before he lost consciousness.

01:37:09.460 When his killer made that call to police

01:37:11.580 and he called the police, not the ambulance service,

01:37:14.440 he lied on that call.

01:37:15.880 He lied when police attended the scene.

01:37:17.700 He continued to lie as Henry's condition deteriorated.

01:37:23.200 That's not good enough, Phil.

01:37:24.680 that this is a known risk when you approach a crime scene like this that possibly you know

01:37:33.000 is a stabbing that someone could be lying to you and and one you used to be a cop and your mind

01:37:38.900 has to be open to the fact that it might be the one with the brown skin and the one with the white

01:37:44.040 skin might just happen in this circumstance to be the victim you know when i put my ex-cop hat on

01:37:50.820 Megan, a couple of things come to mind.

01:37:53.140 First off, knives obviously can kill, but so can the woke mind virus.

01:37:58.060 And that seems to be what has infected certainly the police officers that I think we saw on

01:38:03.560 that video, if not many others, not only in the UK, but elsewhere across the globe and

01:38:09.560 even here in the United States.

01:38:11.160 There's no reason, in my view, to handcuff that man that way.

01:38:16.860 Even had he not been stabbed, he's complaining of injuries.

01:38:20.560 he's not presenting any kind of threat. And I think the first duty of law enforcement on the

01:38:25.460 scene is to render aid where it needs to be rendered and not to just sort of make snap

01:38:32.040 decisions on who may or may not be telling the truth. If you arrive on scene and someone's

01:38:36.680 injured or complaining of an injury, you need to go ahead and deal with that in a responsible way.

01:38:42.520 And honestly, someone that I know who's in law enforcement in the UK shares with me that their

01:38:49.700 belief, and I agree with it, is that those officers are guilty also of a crime. I think

01:38:56.900 they're guilty of some type of negligent homicide, and I think they should be prosecuted. They should

01:39:02.380 be sitting in a jail cell alongside the defendant who is guilty of an absolute brutal murder with

01:39:11.700 that knife. The whole thing is just, it's unspeakable, it's indefensible, and I'm sorry,

01:39:18.820 I'm glad they apologized, but that's not enough.

01:39:21.820 There's not enough.

01:39:22.580 There needs to be, we need vengeance here.

01:39:24.780 We need some type of accountability for those police officers because that man's death is on their hands.

01:39:31.660 Actually, imagine if the races were reversed.

01:39:35.300 There would be riots in the street.

01:39:37.680 There were.

01:39:38.540 Keir Starmer, who only said one word about this yesterday, I think.

01:39:43.020 He said nothing, nothing after the tape was or the incident became public while they were on trial.

01:39:49.760 Nothing.

01:39:50.820 Well, finally, he says something about it.

01:39:52.520 But he was quick to kneel for George Floyd.

01:39:55.180 They had protests in London after George Floyd.

01:39:58.920 But but here, because the races were what they were, they did nothing.

01:40:03.120 Here's a political commentator, Carol Malone on GB News, making similar points.

01:40:07.540 We should call this out for what it was. 0.89

01:40:10.220 If Henry Novak had had a brown or a black skin, there would have been uproar about this. 0.96

01:40:16.980 If it had been a white person that killed a black or a brown person, there would have been national uproar. 0.96

01:40:23.200 Every member of this government would have been screaming about it from the rooftops. 0.97

01:40:26.960 Look what they did with George Floyd.

01:40:28.620 The last thing, it's interesting, Henry's last words, why I can't breathe.

01:40:32.720 They were George Floyd's last words.

01:40:34.180 He couldn't breathe either.

01:40:35.180 It's the media as well.

01:40:36.600 Every other TV station, bar this one, has ignored this.

01:40:40.380 Almost every paper has ignored this.

01:40:42.260 The only political party that has actually acknowledged what is going on here is reform.

01:40:46.760 Nobody else.

01:40:48.900 My thoughts are that the police knew this man was dying.

01:40:52.660 You could see in the video that you showed his hands.

01:40:55.620 I mean, they had to know that.

01:40:57.400 And so it doesn't matter the color of his skin.

01:40:58.940 It doesn't matter what the other person is saying.

01:41:00.940 He is clearly dying.

01:41:02.500 And I think the problem with the police is that they are quick to cuff someone when they

01:41:07.820 don't need to cuff someone.

01:41:09.120 And they're quick to just rush to judgment.

01:41:11.440 This man was not fighting.

01:41:13.200 He wasn't trying.

01:41:14.020 I mean, originally, he was trying to get away.

01:41:15.960 But when the police were there, he was completely compliant.

01:41:18.600 You don't see him doing anything.

01:41:20.120 So absent officer safety reasons, there is absolutely no reason for the police to put

01:41:24.920 this man in custody.

01:41:25.880 And I think we just jumped to that because they immediately believed this guy.

01:41:29.600 They immediately believed him.

01:41:31.260 And I mean, he's not even carrying the type of weapon that's allowed.

01:41:34.440 You know, there's a law in Britain that you're allowed to carry a weapon if it's for religious

01:41:37.760 purposes.

01:41:38.280 But the weapon that he had was not even the right type of weapon.

01:41:41.780 I mean, it's essentially a knife that he was carrying.

01:41:44.120 The police should have seen that and should have taken that into account.

01:41:47.020 And then maybe this poor kid, this child, because he was a child, would not have died

01:41:52.240 in police custody with the last thing he heard being that you're being arrested.

01:41:57.040 It's just it's awful.

01:41:58.540 What do you think, Dave?

01:41:59.320 should the cops face charges yeah yes yes this was absolutely disgraceful and i have to give

01:42:07.080 some responsibility here to cure starmer this is cure starmer's britain you know he he is neville

01:42:12.040 chamberlain 2.0 i mean this is uh this is an extension of how he treats those who march in

01:42:19.180 the streets every week uh calling for jihad uh who who uh call for violence against jews and now

01:42:26.940 As a result, Jewish students are told to hide their identities on university campus in Britain.

01:42:31.740 Jewish schools have to close periodically for security.

01:42:34.700 MPs are given bodyguards because of the threats from these radical groups.

01:42:38.100 And what does Keir Starmer do?

01:42:39.800 He appeases.

01:42:40.580 And I got to believe that the police officers here took their cues from the leader because they were more concerned.

01:42:47.060 Can you guys stay just for a couple of extra minutes?

01:42:49.060 I know you have to run, but if you can stay, I want to continue.

01:42:51.060 I got to go hard break in 10 seconds.

01:42:52.620 I promise I'll only keep you like three to five minutes max on the opposite end.

01:42:55.740 Don't go away.

01:42:56.200 This is too important.

01:43:26.200 Sirius XM app.

01:43:31.720 His murderer, however, was afforded decency.

01:43:35.560 He was believed.

01:43:37.500 He was not handcuffed when arrested.

01:43:40.200 He was not handcuffed when transported to the police station.

01:43:43.920 As far as we understand, he was never handcuffed at all.

01:43:49.120 And, as Vikram Digwar himself told the court,

01:43:52.760 whilst under arrest for Henry's murder,

01:43:55.400 Police even took him to the kitchen so he could choose his food.

01:43:59.240 That's the father of victim Henry Novak, who was murdered by Vikram Digwa, who's been found guilty.

01:44:06.140 The father, in an extraordinary display of dignity, calling out the police and Keir Starmer's government, to some extent, on their cold, callous behavior toward his dying son.

01:44:19.800 Welcome back to The Megyn Kelly Show.

01:44:21.080 We're back with the hosts of MK True Crime, Ashley Merchant, Dave Ehrenberg and Phil Holloway.

01:44:25.360 Dave, pick it up where you left off on the subject of Keir Starmer, because just to remind the audience now, there is a picture here of him kneeling, kneeling post George Floyd.

01:44:35.340 So he felt totally fine getting down on one knee and stirring up racial controversy after that death of somebody who wasn't even his constituent.

01:44:45.140 But when Henry gets murdered back in December of 2025, from that day to yesterday, he said nothing.

01:44:54.300 He didn't even do the pablum of we're deeply sorry for his family's loss and we'll let the legal process play out.

01:45:01.820 You know, the benign we're sorry for what's happened here.

01:45:05.820 Stand by. Nothing.

01:45:07.020 He waited until the whole thing was over and then came out and said, this is an awful, shocking case.

01:45:11.820 Henry's loved ones have gone through the trauma of a long trial and endured Henry's killer making up appalling claims about their son, who was thoughtful, kind and deeply loved.

01:45:22.540 That's that's really not the trauma. Like the trauma is that Henry's dead.

01:45:26.760 But OK, he took a shot. It's right that the police are being investigated and we must end the cycle of tragedy by tackling the horror of knife crime.

01:45:37.760 Henry's family, friends in New Year's University

01:45:39.320 and the city of Southampton will continue to feel his loss.

01:45:41.780 Our thoughts will always be with them.

01:45:44.400 Okay, keep going.

01:45:45.320 Megan, most of the police officers are still on duty.

01:45:47.900 They're still on the job.

01:45:49.440 I mean, that's crazy.

01:45:50.460 I mean, I do-

01:45:50.820 All but one, I think.

01:45:51.820 Right.

01:45:52.580 I wonder if it's the one who said,

01:45:54.800 you know, mate, about the stabbing, didn't believe him.

01:45:58.540 When it comes to-

01:45:59.580 I don't know.

01:46:00.300 Yeah, but that's crazy.

01:46:01.320 I do think, I agree with Phil and Ashley that,

01:46:03.040 yeah, you could charge them possibly

01:46:04.680 with culpable negligence, manslaughter.

01:46:08.100 There are things you can charge them with,

01:46:09.200 just like the officers in the George Floyd case

01:46:11.840 were charged with crimes,

01:46:13.060 even the ones who were there stopping the crowd

01:46:16.100 from moving in and assisting the main guy.

01:46:19.660 You know, appeasement is what I was talking about

01:46:21.220 when it comes to Keir Starmer.

01:46:22.360 That's a political strategy,

01:46:24.420 and it's not a victimless one. 0.74

01:46:26.300 Neville Chamberlain appeased Hitler,

01:46:28.600 and that led to war.

01:46:29.600 And when it comes to Keir Starmer,

01:46:32.460 he has domestic appeasement.

01:46:34.240 You could argue that that type of appeasement, that culture he's created, helped lead to an innocent 18-year-old dying in the streets in handcuffs, gasping for air while the police were coddling his murderer.

01:46:48.780 It really is disgraceful.

01:46:50.820 Dave, we just were in contact with our friend Lawrence Fox, who's been on the program many times.

01:46:56.860 many times. And he, along with two others, were going to go to the Oxford Union in London

01:47:04.040 and debate the now head of their, I think of the debate team, the one guy got ejected because he

01:47:12.500 was so insensitive. But this woman is a Muslim Palestinian who she wanted to have the debate 1.00

01:47:19.620 of Islam's role in the UK. You know, is it too big? Is it consistent with the values of a Western 1.00

01:47:26.820 democracy? She wanted to have that debate and was, of course, going to be arguing. Yes, it is. It's

01:47:31.580 fine. You know, it is consistent. And these guys were going to argue the opposite. And they were

01:47:35.500 going to have this debate at Oxford Union like they have so many other debates. And it was shut

01:47:39.520 down by police. The police wouldn't allow Oxford to have it. And Oxford, of course, folded like a

01:47:46.960 cheap tent because they won't even let them debate it. You can't even have the debate even

01:47:53.760 when it's introduced by a Muslim woman. P.S. We are working on hosting that debate for them 1.00

01:47:59.300 right here in America where you're still allowed to have these back and forths. Thank God. But

01:48:04.700 imagine, especially in the wake of this murder, you can't we can't even have the debate. You're

01:48:10.080 in the UK. We just saw Cenk Uyghur and his cousin. Their visas were allowed or not allowed. They

01:48:17.720 couldn't enter the UK to go on with Piers Morgan. They were going to discuss not even it wasn't even

01:48:24.480 about like Israel, Palestine. It was because of their prior statements about that conflict

01:48:29.760 that they weren't allowed in. I was like, this is crazy. The crackdown on free speech in Great

01:48:35.020 Britain. And that's what you see seeping into that confrontation between an innocent, yes,

01:48:41.840 happens to be white kid and a guilty happens to be brown man. Yeah. Yeah. Well, they don't have 0.66

01:48:48.900 the First Amendment in Great Britain. It's always easier to sue someone for defamation there than it

01:48:53.680 is in this country. But I agree with you that when you stop people from having conversations,

01:48:58.180 that leads elsewhere because where is that going to go? That's not going to end the debate. It's

01:49:03.680 just going to lead to violence because there's no way to talk it out i'd much rather talk it out

01:49:08.160 and when you do have that conversation here on your show i'd love to come on and

01:49:11.540 be a participant in some of these conversations oh yeah we'll have you we're it's like well

01:49:16.800 underway and we're going to have the debate here that they banned in the uk which is just

01:49:21.860 disgraceful it's disgraceful i mean honestly i was saying to pierce morgan yesterday like

01:49:26.240 we're about to celebrate our 250th over here it's almost like the uk would like to create

01:49:31.720 another spinoff, right? Like there's going to be some folks over there who are like, we're out too.

01:49:36.440 Like what, no one wants to live like this, where you can, you have to shut down all discussions

01:49:41.460 that help people connect or get their arms around these difficult issues. And to the point where you

01:49:46.640 shut down a dying man's pleas for help, because you can't get it in your head that he might

01:49:53.520 actually be the victim. And the Sikh guy standing over there might be the perp. And in fact, they 0.99

01:49:58.900 were asked, this police officer, this deputy I mentioned, Deputy Chief Constable Robert France,

01:50:04.600 who spoke finally, he was asked whether he believed his officers had been scared of being

01:50:11.040 accused of racism in that moment. You know, that's why they behaved the way they did. And he said

01:50:16.900 they had been deceived by Digwa's repeated lies about what had taken place. But again, you know,

01:50:23.380 phil that's so infuriating it's your job as a police officer to understand that no one on a

01:50:29.400 scene at a scene like that has a presumption of honesty they were deceived obviously by a killer

01:50:35.960 and a liar but they were also deceived by suicidal empathy and the consequences of unchecked mass

01:50:42.400 migration because what you see uh if you know if you if you take uh one society and move it to

01:50:50.440 another geographic location on the globe, then you displace another society and another culture

01:50:57.600 and, you know, people's national heritage goes with it. And that's kind of what we're seeing

01:51:03.480 take place in Great Britain and other places around Europe and even certain parts of the

01:51:08.660 United States. And so law enforcement, I think, if you take it back to the 10,000 foot level,

01:51:15.180 law enforcement has to make sure that they play it straight they call balls and they call strikes

01:51:22.300 they cannot be influenced by cultural pressures they can't be influenced by wokeism and the woke

01:51:28.400 mind virus they and when they roll up on the scene somebody calls for help they need to call balls

01:51:33.620 and call strikes objectively and without favor or presumptions towards either side and when you've

01:51:39.440 got somebody who is complaining and telling you they've been stabbed, then you damn well better

01:51:45.560 take them seriously. Because if not, you may wind up sharing the cell with the person who sat,

01:51:51.900 who did in fact stab them. Because I think what they did was a crime. I think it was criminal

01:51:56.660 negligence. I think every single one of them involved should be sitting in a British prison.

01:52:02.020 Yeah, they accepted the responsibility. Then they showed up as fiduciaries and they let Henry die.

01:52:07.940 All hell is breaking loose in the UK as we have this discussion.

01:52:11.220 They're, what, five hours ahead of us?

01:52:12.960 Depends on the time of year, whether it's five or six.

01:52:15.040 And I want to show you what's happening.

01:52:16.880 There are protests starting now outside of the police headquarters in Southampton, where

01:52:23.540 these officers are, protesters demanding justice.

01:52:27.400 And they say it's over a thousand so far who are there to demand action following the murder

01:52:32.440 of Henry Novak.

01:52:33.760 They began around 6 p.m. this evening, British time, to hold a moment of silence for the teenager with shouts of shame on you also being heard.

01:52:42.320 They are reporting at GB News that there's a strong police presence at the protest as well, monitoring.

01:52:47.700 Let's take a look at how that is, and then I'll tell you the latest news about the cops.

01:53:03.760 Just jammed in like smacked sardines outside of this police station, you can barely move.

01:53:28.760 People are angry.

01:53:40.760 They've got to make more room for this crowd. Somebody's going to get trampled.

01:53:46.760 The police are trying to create a perimeter that includes these stairs, but the people need the room.

01:53:58.760 they're trying to prevent a breaching of the police station. I assume that's what we're

01:54:11.080 seeing there, Ashley. And now we get word that per Sky News, another one of the police officers

01:54:17.500 involved in the arrest of Henry Novak has resigned, according to Hampshire police. We already had news

01:54:22.520 that one was allowed to, quote, retire. That was the word used. Now this is another one, we believe,

01:54:27.420 though they have an identified name, so I can't be sure, that another one has been allowed to,

01:54:31.740 quote, resign. This is not right. They should all be fired. Why should they be given the dignity

01:54:37.140 of a peaceful exit with a resignation or retirement? You know, cuffs is one thing,

01:54:45.260 but the dignity of a resigning as opposed to your ass is fired and you should be praying that you 0.99

01:54:51.000 don't get arrested. Or some type of a public tribunal where their conduct is actually examined. 0.96

01:54:55.660 they have to answer for it. I mean, I think that would be something that the people deserve to see

01:54:59.980 these cops actually having to answer publicly for what they've done. But I also blame the media in

01:55:05.040 the UK because they really have not covered this. And, you know, this has been something that's sort

01:55:10.120 of been allowed to go unnoticed to a lot of folks until now, you know, it's being brought out,

01:55:15.880 but we're having to bring it out. I mean, where's the British press? Where's their outrage? It's

01:55:19.440 more recent, you know, but that's another person that's to blame. Yeah. As we heard that one

01:55:25.460 commentator pointed out, and if you don't, as the press, give voice to what everyone is feeling,

01:55:33.240 you create more rage. You create just more unbridled anger.

01:55:38.680 Right. It's unfair. It's biased. It's completely biased.

01:55:42.880 That's clearly deprioritizing white lives. That's really, I mean, we all got mocked with the white 0.54

01:55:49.400 lives matter thing. Like that made you racist if you said that. And it's like, if you went out

01:55:55.060 there and chanted that right now, they'd still turn

01:55:57.080 on you. They'd still call you a racist. Well, guess what

01:55:59.020 they do? They do matter. Henry Novak's

01:56:01.100 life mattered. And those cops need to be

01:56:03.060 fired and charged. And there has to

01:56:05.080 be absolutely no quarter spared for Vikram 0.98

01:56:07.160 Degra and his disgusting 0.99

01:56:09.060 mother who hid 0.95

01:56:10.980 the murder weapon and was also found

01:56:12.960 guilty. Thank you

01:56:15.020 for sticking around late. I know Phil and Dave just

01:56:17.020 had a piece out and you got to go too, but it's

01:56:18.980 been great having you. No, it's good to see you. Thank you for

01:56:20.960 all the great work over at MK True Crime.

01:56:23.240 All right. Well, thank you for having me.

01:56:25.060 All right. To be continued. Wow. We're taking your thoughts on the Henry Novak case. Email me. It's Megan at Megan Kelly dot com. My God, we'll stay on it tomorrow. We are back with the results. Maybe they take forever. They are like a third world country in California. So we may have some indication of how the vote went at the L of the L.A. mayor's race and the gubernatorial level. And our guest is perfect. It's Adam Carolla. So no matter what's in the news, we have the perfect guest and we'll see you all then.

01:56:55.060 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - June 02, 2026

Blake Lively's Legal Fees Ploy, and Mackenzie Shirilla's Shocking ＂Crash,＂ with MK True Crime's Phil Holloway, Ashleigh Merchant, and Dave Aronberg ｜ Ep. 1330

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