The Megyn Kelly Show - Bloodstain Analysis, Sheriff's ＂Theory＂ - Part 1 of Megyn Kelly Investigates Nancy Guthrie's Disappearance ｜ Ep. 1274

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00:01:28.620 or visit connexontario.ca. Welcome to the Megan Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM channel 111 every

00:01:34.820 weekday at noon east. Hey everyone, I'm Megan Kelly. Welcome to the Megan Kelly Show. It has now

00:01:46.080 been 44 days since Nancy Guthrie's mysterious disappearance. Under circumstances, investigators

00:01:51.940 are still struggling to fully explain. Early statements from law enforcement were confusing,

00:01:58.120 key details shifted, and a timeline that should have clarified the case has only fueled more questions.

00:02:03.700 Today, we begin a four-part series into all of the outstanding questions and theories

00:02:09.780 surrounding Nancy's disappearance. What happened inside of that house? Why did investigators release

00:02:17.280 the crime scene so early? What can we determine by the splatters of blood left behind? And how many

00:02:24.120 people might actually be involved in Nancy's disappearance? ABC News is now reporting, citing sources

00:02:31.280 briefed on the investigation, that the FBI has recovered additional imagery from the cameras at

00:02:37.620 Nancy's home. It's reporting that the images were recovered in recent weeks from motion-activated

00:02:43.500 cameras trained on the swimming pool, the backyard, and the side yard. Investigators apparently not

00:02:50.580 recovering video footage, but instead thumbnail images captured when the cameras were triggered

00:02:56.640 by motion. The source is telling ABC News that investigators were able to observe several

00:03:02.280 people in the back and the side yards over an unspecified period prior to the abduction,

00:03:08.380 but the cameras captured nothing on the night of the abduction, which one source describes as odd.

00:03:16.720 Before we dive into that new information, here is a look back at how this case first captured the

00:03:22.400 nation's attention. There is a very disturbing situation out of Arizona involving the mother

00:03:28.760 of NBC News anchor Savannah Guthrie. This is Today with Savannah Guthrie. We want to get right to what is a

00:03:37.040 deeply personal story for us. Savannah's beloved mother has been reported missing in Arizona.

00:03:43.320 This is shocking. We saw some things at the home that were concerning to us,

00:03:49.220 that we do in fact have a crime scene, that we do in fact have a crime.

00:03:53.500 The sheriff said, we believe she did not leave of her own volition, that she left behind her keys,

00:04:00.000 her ID, her purse, her phone, everything. I mean, no 84-year-old woman leaves the house without a purse.

00:04:07.680 This sounds about as serious as it can get. They seem pretty sure that a crime took place. We don't

00:04:13.560 know what that information is yet. It's a race against the clock. Older people with dementia wander off,

00:04:18.660 but they've been very affirmative that she was mentally sound. And this is really bad.

00:04:26.140 Her meds are vital. I can't stress that enough. It's been better than 24 hours. And the family tells

00:04:33.520 us if she doesn't have those meds, it can become fatal. It says all the scary, scary components of

00:04:41.320 cases that don't end well. You know, it's happened before. The police, the sheriff is,

00:04:46.860 oh, this person's dead, and this, that, and that. And then I see, you know, some hospital

00:04:51.740 calls and says, hey, I think I've got this lady in my hospital room. So, you know, we're never going 0.81

00:04:57.120 to give up hope. Good morning. This is our timeline that we have been able to develop. About 5.32 p.m.

00:05:03.220 Nancy travels to the, to her local family's home for dinner and, and playing games with

00:05:09.420 the family. At 9.48 p.m., Nancy was dropped off at home. And we, we, we know that because

00:05:15.660 we have a garage door open. At 9.50 p.m., that garage door closes. But it's that time we assume

00:05:22.460 that Nancy's home. Sunday morning, early morning at 1.47 a.m., the doorbell camera disconnects.

00:05:29.880 At 2.12 a.m., software detects a person on a camera. But there's no video available.

00:05:38.380 They had no subscription. And therefore, it would rewrite itself, kind of, it just kind

00:05:44.200 of loops, right, and covers up. But we're not giving up on that. 2.28, Nancy's pacemaker

00:05:49.920 app shows that it was a disconnect from the phone. And at 11.56 a.m., uh, the family

00:05:56.800 checks on Nancy and discovers her missing. And at 12.03 p.m., 9-1-1 is called in to the

00:06:06.440 Pupacal Sheriff's Department.

00:06:08.000 Subject last name will be cut. Free first of Nancy, the 84-year-old white female. Subject 0.79

00:06:12.000 is nowhere to be found. Subject suffers from limited mobility and has medication scheduled

00:06:16.440 to follow up. This case is bizarre and disturbing. Law enforcement sources telling the Los Angeles

00:06:25.220 Times that blood was found inside of her Arizona home alongside signs of forced entry, prompting

00:06:33.020 detectives to investigate what they now describe as a, quote, possible kidnapping or abduction.

00:06:38.160 Blood drops were also found leading from the entryway outside down the house's pathway toward

00:06:47.140 the driveway.

00:06:48.000 My mom is up early in Tucson, Arizona. Nancy Guthrie joins us now.

00:06:52.120 This poor woman. There she was, more vibrant, you know, 13 years ago.

00:06:55.440 Hi, Savannah. She is here to share one of her famous dinners.

00:06:58.780 Prior to this, nobody ever thought their mom could be potentially endangered. You know,

00:07:02.140 it was just, this is a whole new kind of crime.

00:07:04.320 Nancy, it's already great.

00:07:06.220 I mean, I have to say, that's the thing about, like, these morning shows and having been at

00:07:11.600 the Today Show for a year.

00:07:13.020 I grew up in the 70s, okay, in Arizona. My mom was like, go out and play. I'll see you

00:07:18.660 at dinnertime.

00:07:19.940 They really want you to put your personal life on the air.

00:07:22.940 There is no place like home.

00:07:24.760 The Daily Mail is reporting that some at NBC are worried about this segment.

00:07:29.620 I come here every time I come home.

00:07:31.880 Savannah returning to her hometown of Tucson and being with her mother.

00:07:36.320 What made you want to stay in Tucson and to get roots?

00:07:39.260 I'm so wonderful. Just the air, the quality of life is played back.

00:07:44.120 Now what they report in the Daily Mail is that there's a lot of soul searching at NBC

00:07:47.340 about whether their segment made Nancy a target.

00:07:50.680 The best thing about Tucson is coming home and seeing you guys.

00:07:53.680 I mean, what are the odds that this is just some caper where they've kidnapped an 84-year-old

00:07:59.340 woman who just so happens to be the mother of one of the biggest news stars in America? 0.94

00:08:04.880 She was like the 12th member of the cast for a while.

00:08:08.180 Savannah's mom.

00:08:09.480 That does not track to me.

00:08:11.220 Well, in law enforcement, we don't believe in coincidences.

00:08:14.420 And I don't believe in that coincidence either.

00:08:16.800 We are ready to talk.

00:08:20.660 A major development last night when we heard from Savannah and her siblings.

00:08:25.100 In a nearly four-minute video filmed on a couch seated together, Savannah pleads for her mother's

00:08:31.460 return and addresses the reports of a ransom letter.

00:08:35.140 We need to know without a doubt that she is alive and that you have her.

00:08:42.480 We're going to go to someone who's been on the ground in Arizona getting scoop after scoop,

00:08:46.040 and that's News Nation's Brian Enten.

00:08:47.940 What is in the ransom notes is that there is specific information about what Nancy Guthrie

00:08:53.180 was wearing and also specific information about details from inside the house that apparently

00:09:00.720 only someone would know who was inside the house.

00:09:03.260 What I don't know is if any of that information is correct.

00:09:06.760 It was stunning to watch.

00:09:07.980 Hi, everybody.

00:09:08.520 Good morning.

00:09:09.040 Virtually everyone in this country has seen Savannah Guthrie looking directly in the camera.

00:09:13.040 Our mom is our heart and our home.

00:09:16.560 And this was so different.

00:09:19.180 I mean, she looked exhausted.

00:09:22.700 I'll bet she said absolutely no sleep.

00:09:24.860 How would you fall asleep at night when you didn't know whether your mom was alive or dead,

00:09:29.360 whether she was in the custody of bad guys who wanted to hurt her, when you'd seen what

00:09:33.420 we believe was her blood outside of her home, when you know she doesn't have access to her

00:09:38.240 medication that she needs?

00:09:40.120 I mean, you could just see.

00:09:42.080 You could see that wear and tear on Savannah's face, and you just wanted to reach out and

00:09:48.060 try to make it better for her.

00:09:49.380 It was very jarring.

00:09:51.740 Everyone is looking for you, mommy.

00:09:54.180 Everywhere.

00:09:56.940 Hmm.

00:09:58.260 It's chilling just to get the oversight again.

00:10:00.740 I mean, you guys know what happened in this case, but just to see it all together like that,

00:10:04.840 just such a jarring series of events.

00:10:07.940 Joining me now to dive into the story, Jim Fitzgerald.

00:10:10.000 Fitz, he's a former FBI supervisory special agent and a forensic linguist, along with co-host

00:10:16.280 of the Cold Red podcast, and Maureen O'Connell, 25-year veteran of the FBI and co-host of Best

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00:11:26.640 Fitz, Maureen, great to see you both.

00:11:28.740 Thanks for joining us.

00:11:30.820 There's a lot of places we could go with this, but let's just start back at the initial crime

00:11:36.860 scene.

00:11:37.820 Let's say you get brought in on this case this week, and Sheriff Nano says, we finally got

00:11:44.320 to the best ones, and we want your analysis of how we can go back and start over so that

00:11:50.280 we can get some real clues and make sure we didn't miss anything.

00:11:53.840 Where do you start, Fitz?

00:11:56.400 Well, in an ideal scenario, and what I'm about to say is not casting aspersions or making

00:12:01.400 anyone sound guilty, but as soon as we realized that Mrs. Guthrie was missing by force, didn't

00:12:09.220 walk off on her own, I would want to completely separate all of the family members and interview 1.00

00:12:14.640 them separately.

00:12:15.960 And again, I'm not saying one of them had anything to do with this directly, but indirectly,

00:12:21.500 we don't know, a friend of a friend, they put some information out.

00:12:24.900 And that way, they could be assured from the very beginning that the story lined up with

00:12:29.660 what exact time Nancy was dropped off that night, who drove her.

00:12:33.620 There's been some of the anecdotes are going back and forth in terms of who was in the car

00:12:38.040 that night when she was dropped off.

00:12:39.680 The garage door opened.

00:12:40.480 Did they walk her in or not?

00:12:41.520 So it would have been nice and ideal, and this is what they teach, of course, in the

00:12:45.080 police academy, separate everyone as soon as you can.

00:12:48.220 Doesn't mean they're suspects, doesn't mean they're bad guys, but this way, there's no

00:12:52.640 question there's not going to be leakage or some sort of a permeation of the particular

00:12:58.540 story from one person to another.

00:13:00.600 It's their own memory recalling to the investigators what happened.

00:13:04.900 So that's investigative interviewing 101, and I'm not sure if that happened.

00:13:10.580 Something tells me they were all sitting on a couch in someone's living room.

00:13:14.860 Well, the last time we saw her was this, and they're going back and forth, and that even

00:13:18.220 includes the older child, and perhaps that person would have known something.

00:13:21.900 So ideally speaking, that's the first thing I would have wanted to have done.

00:13:25.600 I hope they did that later that day or certainly by the next day, that division, so to speak.

00:13:30.140 That's true, Maureen, because if you walk in and just assume that everybody you're looking

00:13:34.600 at is a victim, you're making a basic mistake in law enforcement, right?

00:13:40.460 Shouldn't the instinct be as soft a heart as you may have that everyone is a suspect until

00:13:46.120 you have a suspect in custody?

00:13:49.000 Yes.

00:13:49.400 So much of law enforcement goes against what you would do in a normal situation as a member

00:13:56.960 of the public.

00:13:57.580 We have to ask real hard questions.

00:14:00.340 We have to make it as comfortable as possible, and then there are times where it has to go

00:14:06.180 to a totally different level where you don't care how uncomfortable someone is.

00:14:10.520 However, in a situation like this, I would absolutely agree with Fitz.

00:14:14.660 I would also say that if we were taking this case over today, they already gave up the crime

00:14:23.480 scene so early, but my focus would have been on the house.

00:14:27.580 I'm not necessarily judging them at all initially because it did look like a walk away, and there

00:14:34.520 are a lot of people that walk away from their home and sprain their ankle and they're stuck

00:14:38.120 in a ditch or whatever.

00:14:39.300 And being 84 without her medication, she could have almost been unconscious at that part at

00:14:45.620 that time.

00:14:46.580 But once they realized, once they saw the blood on the front porch, she wasn't there.

00:14:54.200 They searched around the area.

00:14:55.640 They couldn't find her.

00:14:56.560 It's time to expand your investigative priorities become expanding the crime scene, roping the

00:15:02.960 whole thing off, doing everything you can with DNA, touch DNA, fibers, hairs, all that

00:15:10.840 kind of stuff.

00:15:11.560 And if the FBI ever, ever offers to have the ERT team work your crime scene, for the love

00:15:20.800 of all that's holy, just say yes.

00:15:24.220 Because most crime scene teams have two or three people on them.

00:15:28.500 And crime scene work is arduous work.

00:15:30.720 It's hard labor oftentimes.

00:15:33.580 But when you have 25 people that you can throw at a crime scene, and they're all specialized

00:15:38.960 in some way, shape, or form, it really makes things work a lot better.

00:15:47.080 You know, I've been dying to ask you two about the video that we uncovered of Nancy's bedroom.

00:15:53.460 We aired this last week, and it was from 2013.

00:15:56.560 And we found it just because we were preparing for this series.

00:16:01.400 You know, so we did a deep, deep dive into the archives of the Today Show.

00:16:04.460 And we found video for the first time of Nancy's bedroom.

00:16:08.940 And I mean, you were part of that evidence response team at the FBI, Maureen.

00:16:13.720 So I've been dying to get your thoughts on what we see in this video.

00:16:17.520 Let's watch it.

00:16:18.640 My mom is up early in Tucson, Arizona.

00:16:21.660 Nancy Guthrie joins us now.

00:16:22.960 Hi, Mom.

00:16:23.420 Good morning.

00:16:23.840 Hi, Savannah.

00:16:27.380 Well, hi, everybody.

00:16:28.720 Hi, Mom.

00:16:29.020 Good morning, Nancy.

00:16:29.460 I see that you've already made your bed, even though it's 3 a.m. there or whatever.

00:16:33.560 Exactly.

00:16:34.180 Mom, why was this an important skill to teach me?

00:16:38.300 Well, I think everybody needs to know how to make a bed.

00:16:41.200 And so when the time came to teach you guys how to make a bed, this is what I tried to teach you anyway.

00:16:46.980 Now, this is not just your standard bed making.

00:16:49.400 This is the hospital coroner's bed making.

00:16:51.580 We're talking you can bounce a quarter off of it, right, Nancy?

00:16:55.640 Natalie, don't put me to the test.

00:16:57.860 It's way too early.

00:16:59.600 She's backing off.

00:17:00.720 Nancy, I just want to know how difficult Savannah was when you tried to teach her this.

00:17:04.000 How much screaming and stomping her feet was involved. 1.00

00:17:06.420 All three of the kids thought it was a really worthless skill for making her bed.

00:17:12.540 Mom, first you show everybody how to do it, okay?

00:17:15.720 And then you can judge how we do it.

00:17:18.440 Okay.

00:17:19.040 That sounds like a plan.

00:17:20.460 Well, basically, since my bed's already made, the most important thing you have to do is to make sure this top sheet is really pulled in here tightly.

00:17:30.400 Because that's going to give you your smooth corner.

00:17:32.700 And then tuck on the outer.

00:17:33.620 Then you pull this over.

00:17:35.140 Yeah.

00:17:35.380 And you make kind of like a triangle.

00:17:36.920 Triangle.

00:17:37.480 I remember that.

00:17:38.000 Don't get started with it.

00:17:39.260 And then you tuck it under as tightly as you can.

00:17:43.460 But here's the little skill.

00:17:45.920 See this nice corner?

00:17:47.260 Yeah.

00:17:47.740 You want to make sure that's as tight as can be.

00:17:50.160 Okay.

00:17:50.560 You tuck it in.

00:17:51.240 And you keep cookies in there.

00:17:52.080 Then when you sleep in there.

00:17:53.080 Yeah.

00:17:53.540 There you go.

00:17:54.540 And then mom, when you sleep in the middle of the night, it doesn't pull out.

00:17:57.420 All right.

00:17:57.940 Oh, there.

00:17:58.680 For David, this would be a toy bed.

00:18:01.500 That's a problem.

00:18:02.220 Mom, thank you so much.

00:18:03.520 It's so good to see you.

00:18:04.440 Thanks for coming on the show.

00:18:05.740 I know it's early there.

00:18:06.500 What is this, Tony?

00:18:07.980 It's really early.

00:18:10.080 Bye-bye.

00:18:11.900 Maureen, so there's so much, right?

00:18:13.860 And Fitz, like, isn't it shocking to see the inside of her bedroom where we know she would be stolen from, you know, these years later?

00:18:21.480 When we saw the tape, it was just, she's been in the same house since 1991.

00:18:24.820 So I don't know if she'd redecorated since then.

00:18:27.720 But there it is.

00:18:28.860 It doesn't look like a particularly spacious room.

00:18:30.980 Maureen, what were your thoughts when you saw it?

00:18:33.520 Well, I looked at some things that I thought would be part of a ransom note.

00:18:37.980 For example, that wardrobe piece of furniture off to the left where a gentleman would hang his sport coat for the next night and the shoes go on the bottom.

00:18:47.680 It's got a little thing generally for, like, cufflinks or whatever.

00:18:51.200 It's an old-time, very distinctive piece of furniture that a lot of people don't necessarily have anymore.

00:18:57.880 So they could have used that as something where they're like, whoa, this is legit because she has this thing and, you know, it's not something a lot of people have.

00:19:07.720 Who would know she had this in her room?

00:19:10.860 We would also, they could have described that very distinctive headboard, which is almost Spanish in style.

00:19:17.160 And, you know, like a lot of people, my mom never changed her bedroom furniture after our dad passed away.

00:19:24.940 You know, who does?

00:19:26.700 You get comfortable with it as we age-

00:19:27.500 No, my mom hasn't changed a thing in her house and I don't know how many decades she likes it the way she likes it.

00:19:33.200 Yeah.

00:19:33.820 And they're just comfortable.

00:19:35.200 And it's the way, and if you were in a loving marriage, like your mom, my mom and dad, when one of them, when my dad passed away, she didn't want to change anything.

00:19:45.680 She wanted it to remain the same and it stayed the exact same until she sold the house.

00:19:51.300 So, you know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of stuff in there that someone could have used nefariously in one of those ransom notes to, in order to get the law, the authorities to believe them.

00:20:05.440 What did you think when you saw it, Fitz?

00:20:08.160 You know, I put my behavioral cap on upon seeing, and just right now, Megan, is the first time I watched that video.

00:20:16.560 And, you know, a lot of celebrities out there, a lot of on-air personalities have mothers, have loved ones.

00:20:24.180 But Savannah really took it to the next level in showcasing her mother.

00:20:27.960 And these are very human, very emotional, and they're very moving sort of little segments she put together.

00:20:33.420 And it just has me thinking, if you are, in fact, someone out there suffering from some condition like erotomania, you're basically a stalker.

00:20:43.860 Again, I don't think this was ever about money.

00:20:45.640 What is more valuable to Savannah, to someone like her, that you may have some sort of a fixation or obsession about?

00:20:55.680 And maybe, you know, you can't get to her kids.

00:20:57.320 You don't want to mess with, you know, people that young.

00:20:59.220 Boy, and this mother happens to live in sort of a remote area with neighbors far away.

00:21:04.980 And look how much she means to Savannah.

00:21:07.740 And, boy, I feel like I know her mother as well as I know Savannah from watching her on TV every day.

00:21:13.460 Let me go pay a visit, and let me go do something with this.

00:21:16.100 I can't say I'm locking into this theory, and this didn't happen in a vacuum.

00:21:21.280 There's been emails to Savannah over the years, maybe going as far back as when mom, you know, did the bedroom interview.

00:21:27.960 So I can't imagine that this personal connection between this personality on the air and the fondness and the connection and the closeness she had to her mother weren't interrelated.

00:21:42.120 I'm not blaming Savannah for anything here.

00:21:44.180 She had every right to put her mother on the air. 0.93

00:21:46.200 She loved her mother.

00:21:47.220 Mother loved her daughter.

00:21:48.700 But could this somehow be a person or persons out there who didn't have that relationship with their own mother, wanted something with Savannah, couldn't get to Savannah or kids, so they chose her own mother as some sort of a Freudian substitute?

00:22:04.180 We can really get carried away there.

00:22:06.100 But I have no doubt that the person who abducted Nancy Guthrie is familiar with all these types of videos we've just seen.

00:22:13.300 They may even have, like, a trophy reel they can play over and over again.

00:22:16.980 And therefore, with Savannah not being a prime target or an available target or readily available, they go after her mom.

00:22:23.360 To me, it was one of the things that was creepy about the video in retrospect, not, you know, in the moment, was that it was a very small space between the, you know, that her, what I assume is her side of the bed, the bedside table was right there with her books on it, and the wall.

00:22:38.280 You know, like, this intruder, if he came in there and actually did grab her from her bed, as Savannah said, he had to squeeze in there, and he would have been right on top of her.

00:22:48.540 You know, I mean, he would have been right over her.

00:22:50.860 And, you know, how we heard she had pretty powerful hearing aids, it just doesn't seem like that would have been an issue at all.

00:22:57.940 Seems like rather close quarters where he would have been able to get right up on her next to the bed in a rather small space and order her out.

00:23:07.860 It's so scary to think about and not a lot of room to maneuver because she had quite a few furniture pieces in that one little corner of her bedroom.

00:23:16.640 So that's where we believe the crime took place, according to Savannah, and it's just eerie to see it up close and personal.

00:23:25.300 Don't show your mom's bedroom on TV.

00:23:27.820 I mean, this is something a lot of people would not have done it.

00:23:31.440 I blame the Today Show.

00:23:32.800 I've got to be honest, you guys.

00:23:33.800 I've said this before, but there is pressure on you.

00:23:36.040 I was there for just a year.

00:23:37.140 There is pressure to show all of your intimate details, you know, your family, your children.

00:23:43.420 I mean, they insisted.

00:23:45.680 They really wanted my children on the air, and finally I relented, but I insisted that they blur all of their faces.

00:23:51.960 Like, we did a camping spot with my family, and I was the only one who had their children's faces blurred.

00:23:59.360 I'm like, do not show anything that's identifying about my kids.

00:24:03.580 But they're so desperate to show the audience, like, see, it's just one big happy family, and you need to love all of our anchors who are family, women, and men.

00:24:11.940 And, like, I knew with my kids that this would be endangering.

00:24:15.700 I confess, even with my mom, who did wind up on my show at NBC, didn't even think about it, Fitz.

00:24:21.520 Didn't even consider, like, your mom as a potential source of danger because it, much in the way, like, this is like a new invention.

00:24:29.560 It's like a new way of thinking of how to hurt a public figure.

00:24:32.320 It's one of the many downsides of this horrible case.

00:24:34.240 Yeah, and I just want to go back to the bedroom scene.

00:24:37.720 You can be the toughest MMA fighter, Navy SEAL, trained FBI, SWAT person, all those things.

00:24:43.440 You're sound asleep in REM, rapid eye movement, and you open up, and there's a masked man with that kind of look that we see on the video standing over top of you.

00:24:51.320 And, you know, you're going to panic, and some will turn over and hide, and some will pull the pillow over.

00:24:58.120 Some may get up and fight, but that person definitely has an advantage over you, an 84-year-old woman, you know, without her hearing aids in, and, you know, who knows what her med level was even at that night.

00:25:08.840 So that had to be the most scary moment for her.

00:25:13.180 But, yeah, the whole family thing, I mean, I've interviewed stalkers.

00:25:17.660 I've worked these type cases, and a lot of them had to do with on-air female personalities, such as yourself, Megan, over the years, especially with NBC.

00:25:27.480 I was in New York, and I had a direct pipeline to their director of security, and Anne Curry and a number of others were getting threats all the time, and we had to go out and send leads to other parts of the country.

00:25:37.460 And so it's one thing interpersonal, looking at the screen and seeing your object of obsession, but then they bring in mothers and perhaps children, and kudos to you for at least blurring out their faces on your particular segment that you talked about, Megan.

00:25:53.880 And it just becomes all that more personal, and I just can't rule out that there's someone out there because everything else doesn't make sense about this case.

00:26:02.980 Obviously, it's not money-oriented, et cetera.

00:26:04.840 It's to have some sort of an obsession with Savannah and then now be almost like you're part of her family, and the blood takes away from that, as if Nancy was injured, but because she may have put up a fight of some sort.

00:26:19.560 But this person may have just wanted to have part of Savannah with him for however long, a few hours, a few days, or weeks.

00:26:26.200 And that's just becoming more and more of a possibility as I see it.

00:26:30.920 And these videos over the years, no fault of Savannah.

00:26:33.980 You can blame it on NBC if you want, but it's certainly a person who's already predisposed to aberrant behavior and plotting something like this.

00:26:43.640 He may have seen this thing live, and I forget when you said this bedroom thing was 10 or 12 years ago.

00:26:48.120 He may have seen this live, and the fantasies started then, and I said, oh, I love Savannah so much.

00:26:54.580 I want to meet her mother, too.

00:26:56.740 Who knows?

00:26:57.160 There could have been a knock at the door over the years, and no one made anything of it.

00:27:01.720 And I have no doubt that there's been some interaction on this person's part prior.

00:27:06.760 Exactly what it was, with other family members we don't know, emails, but it's going to be there, and that's what investigators have to look for and search for.

00:27:15.100 And these videos, unfortunately, didn't help.

00:27:18.000 And I think other anchors and news personalities such as yourself, you know this already, but leave the family out of it and even mention them as minimally as necessary.

00:27:30.760 Yeah.

00:27:30.960 Can I add something to this, Megan?

00:27:32.940 Please.

00:27:33.240 This, what Fitz just said, would answer two questions that we haven't had answers to before.

00:27:40.480 Number one, why nothing was taken.

00:27:43.400 There could have been something taken.

00:27:46.120 There could have been something of Savannah's taken, which they wouldn't even have noticed.

00:27:50.040 I'm sure she has her bedroom.

00:27:51.560 Her old bedroom is still there, and she probably wouldn't notice initially if some school trophy from seventh grade was missing or something along those lines.

00:28:03.240 Because they were looking for her mom.

00:28:05.860 It also answers the question of what were they doing in there for 41 minutes.

00:28:10.300 He was, you know, he could have been upstairs trying to find trophies, ones that would really satiate his needs and desire.

00:28:17.340 Right.

00:28:17.740 Well, and we don't know for sure if he was in there for 41 minutes because we never really totally understood how it was at 1.47 a.m. that the ring cameras went offline, and then at 2.12 a.m. that an image was detected.

00:28:33.040 And we think, but we don't know, that the video of the man on the porch was the 2.12 time frame.

00:28:40.120 So I, you know, what happened between 1.47 and 2.12 with the man, we don't know if that's actually how this went down.

00:28:46.660 But that would shorten the timeline that he was inside from 2.12 to 2.28.

00:28:50.400 Still plenty of time to go rifling around in Savannah's childhood bedroom and to mess with Nancy, too. 1.00

00:28:57.400 It's still a long time to get in there and shouldn't have taken that long to get Nancy out. 0.86

00:29:02.700 But one of the many mysteries in this case.

00:29:05.160 We're talking about the sheriff.

00:29:06.260 So he's changed his messaging again on whether there's a threat to the community in a way that I would argue seems to undermine that this is a stalker, that this is an NBC News stalker or family member.

00:29:21.040 Just to take you back through it, at the beginning of the investigation, the sheriff said this about whether there was a public safety threat, SOT 21.

00:29:30.200 With this being an active crime scene, is there a threat to the general public?

00:29:33.580 I'm trying to figure out my point.

00:29:37.680 Well, you know, no, I don't think there's an active threat, but I hate to say that because, you know, we're going to canvass that neighborhood and maybe there's a prowler been seen around.

00:29:50.360 There's a lot of work still to do.

00:29:52.460 We don't have any indication that the public is in danger.

00:29:57.620 You're not sure if it's targeted.

00:29:59.640 Why do you believe there's no way to correct the public?

00:30:01.560 Well, we have crime in Tucson all the time, right?

00:30:04.460 Like any city.

00:30:05.680 And so there when you say a threat to the public, is there somebody out there who's kidnapping elderly people in the middle of the night every night?

00:30:13.140 We've not heard that.

00:30:14.320 We don't believe that's the case.

00:30:16.500 No threat to the public.

00:30:18.240 Now, here he is in an interview with NBC News just this past Friday, SOT 22.

00:30:24.860 Do you think that this suspect could strike again, whoever did this?

00:30:29.560 Well, absolutely.

00:30:30.720 We believe we know why he did this and we believe that it was targeted, but we can't.

00:30:39.020 We're not 100% sure of that.

00:30:41.380 And so it'd be silly to tell people, yeah, don't worry about it.

00:30:44.860 You're not his target.

00:30:46.140 Don't think for a minute that because it happened to the Guthrie family, you're safe.

00:30:52.240 No, keep your wits about you.

00:30:56.020 What?

00:30:56.940 Maureen?

00:30:57.360 Well, I think what he's trying to say is, you know, the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.

00:31:06.920 So if someone is predisposed to doing this type of crime, they may do it again.

00:31:12.800 But the statistics, as he also said, don't support serial offenders or people pulling 84-year-old ladies out of their bed.

00:31:24.440 It just happens so rarely.

00:31:27.360 I kind of just stopped listening to him a while ago because he should have hired his PIO.

00:31:35.220 His PIO should have been the person delivering a clear and concise message.

00:31:39.140 They should have been working with the FBI's PIO, and it should have just been delivered regularly in an organized fashion with no back and forth.

00:31:51.420 It's pretty diametrically opposed.

00:31:53.420 Say at the beginning, there is no public safety threat.

00:31:56.020 And then now, 44 days in, to say, don't think for a minute that you're safe.

00:32:03.300 And then he also adds, Fitz, we believe we know why she was taken.

00:32:09.600 It was targeted.

00:32:10.840 So what is he trying to tell us here? 0.98

00:32:14.900 Well, he's covering his ass, to be CYA, to be blunt there at the end with those other statements. 0.91

00:32:20.660 He wants to make sure if anything by chance does happen, again, something similar, even in some other part of the country that can somehow be linked to this. 0.97

00:32:29.700 He doesn't want to be the one that they quote, at least his last quote, that, well, it could never happen anywhere.

00:32:34.700 She was specifically targeted.

00:32:36.420 This is not going to happen in Tucson or elsewhere.

00:32:39.080 So I think he's obviously talked to other people and maybe said, all right, you may want to lighten that up a little bit there.

00:32:44.440 You may have gone a little bit overboard in the beginning.

00:32:46.520 I mean, obviously, it's been 44 days.

00:32:48.000 And as far as we know, there have been no other abductions such as this one.

00:32:51.720 But I think he just wanted to make sure he's kind of buttering his bread on both sides there.

00:32:56.840 And he just he's covered.

00:32:58.040 I mean, saying, though, explicitly, we believe we know why she was targeted is new.

00:33:03.220 Well, that's a little bit different.

00:33:07.380 That comes out.

00:33:08.320 And and then that, you know, we've said all along when we were together, Megan with Maureen and others, that, you know, the investigators know a lot more than we do.

00:33:17.260 And for him to say early on, at least, that they know why she was targeted, that means they have motivation listed.

00:33:23.900 And if they think it was kidnapping earlier for profit, that seems to have been put, you know, off the shelf there.

00:33:29.820 So I would like to hear more about why the person was targeted or why Mrs. Guthrie was targeted.

00:33:35.920 But they're keeping keeping that close to the vest, obviously.

00:33:39.180 To your point, Maureen, you take everything the sheriff says with a grain of salt.

00:33:42.200 But if that's true, that's huge.

00:33:44.100 That's actually a huge development.

00:33:45.340 But it is huge.

00:33:47.300 And and it tells us just what Fitz just said.

00:33:50.740 And we all know those investigators know so much more than we do.

00:33:55.180 And they're on to something.

00:33:57.040 They're on to something big.

00:33:58.680 They just may be having a hard time proving it.

00:34:01.660 But if you look at the Corey Richens case, that took over, what, a year and several months before she got arrested, before they were able to really build a case.

00:34:11.740 And building a case is like building a cage.

00:34:13.780 You're doing it link by link by link by link.

00:34:17.480 And, you know, you have to have a certain sense of confidence.

00:34:20.120 And for him to say, you know, no one's really safe.

00:34:23.860 He may just be saying, hey, we're not we know what the motive is, but we don't know who you are to give the offender a sense of security or something where he doesn't feel like he's in that cage yet because they want him to trip up.

00:34:37.600 I've always had the feeling since the beginning that they're trying to get him to trip up and they they as far as we know, haven't been able to.

00:34:45.480 But we don't know everything they know.

00:34:47.380 They could have another another legitimate ransom note for all we know.

00:34:52.980 And if it went straight to the FBI, we wouldn't know about it.

00:34:56.580 And we don't know whether his statements suggesting they didn't find anything from the DNA and the backpack investigation didn't go anywhere is true.

00:35:06.160 We don't know whether any of those statements to us are true.

00:35:09.140 He has no obligation to tell us the truth.

00:35:11.140 And they often use the media for subterfuge around what the suspect may be hearing.

00:35:16.200 So everything's got that huge grain of salt.

00:35:18.800 Huge.

00:35:19.220 It's the it's the huge core sea salt grain of salt, not the tiny table salt salt that you get at the deli.

00:35:25.340 Yeah, I want to talk about the blood because this is something that's always bothered me.

00:35:30.060 We have the blood spatter outside of the house, outside the front door.

00:35:36.480 And we saw those the video of those drops in the sort of the front patio area.

00:35:41.820 And then we saw Fox News release more video.

00:35:44.720 This is Brian Enten's video here showing the blood right outside of the front door.

00:35:48.440 And then we saw more blood when Fox News released its own video showing that the blood continued down the walkway from this area here toward the driveway, the circular driveway.

00:36:03.840 Now, in the video that we see of the perpetrator, we don't see a car sitting in the driveway.

00:36:08.660 But that doesn't mean it wasn't there because we couldn't.

00:36:10.860 It's a very large driveway.

00:36:11.820 And here's the Fox News video showing more blood spatter.

00:36:15.900 So clearly, we all believed Nancy was taken out the front door in some way and taken down this gray concrete pathway.

00:36:28.460 And we're assuming put into a car.

00:36:31.700 But one of the things that's always bothered me, you guys, is that, as you know, when you're trying a case, you bring in an expert.

00:36:38.380 You don't, you know, you typically in any criminal trial, you will have the prosecution will call or the defense sometimes will call a witness in and put that person on the stand as an expert.

00:36:53.800 And, you know, this is going to be extremely relevant in this case, too.

00:36:57.360 Law enforcement did confirm that this is Nancy's blood.

00:37:01.580 But what else can we deduce about that, right?

00:37:04.360 Like, what else can we tell from these droplets?

00:37:06.580 We've all had lots of speculation about, well, they look like this.

00:37:09.760 It's probably straight up and down blood drops.

00:37:12.660 Well, let's check our speculation and bring in a true expert.

00:37:16.360 Her name is Dr. Amy Santoro, and she's worked as a forensic scientist for 18 years.

00:37:21.220 She's especially adept at analyzing blood at crime scenes. 0.73

00:37:25.280 She's investigated over 1,000 cases, including more than 500 crime scenes, and holds a certification in bloodstain pattern analysis.

00:37:33.080 Dr. Santoro, welcome to the show.

00:37:34.560 Thanks so much for doing this.

00:37:35.660 So, you're the expert.

00:37:37.860 Tell us what you see when you see those blood droplets outside of Nancy's front door.

00:37:44.020 Well, thanks for having me.

00:37:45.600 The blood outside, I think, is really concerning because, to me, assuming that Ms. Guthrie is moving at, you know, somewhat of a walking pace, these bloodstains show that she's bleeding pretty quickly.

00:37:59.240 What type of injury is it?

00:38:00.580 I don't think we can tell from the stains.

00:38:03.060 They look like drip stains to me, and those small dots of blood are what we would call satellite spatter.

00:38:08.040 That happens when blood falls from a certain height onto a target surface like this.

00:38:12.440 So, what I can tell is that the blood is falling from a height probably more than two feet, whether that's from her hand, her arm, her face.

00:38:20.220 I don't think we can tell, but I think it's an indication that she is bleeding very quickly.

00:38:27.820 There's so much blood out there that if you were walking, I don't think you would see that distribution of blood with a slower bleed.

00:38:35.980 You can see there are multiple drip stains in that area.

00:38:39.220 So, unless she's standing there stationary for a period of time, which, of course, is possible, although I think unlikely in an abduction, I think it shows that she really is bleeding pretty badly.

00:38:49.920 Does that suggest to you that she had any particular kind of wound?

00:38:54.920 I don't think we can say, and I think it's important to be conservative.

00:38:58.780 I don't want to go out on a limb, and certainly I don't want to speculate on the severity of the injury other than to say I think it's fair to assume that there's some sort of quickly bleeding source.

00:39:12.220 That could be just a tear to the skin on her arm.

00:39:16.200 She's an elderly woman.

00:39:16.920 You can see even in some of her older media appearances that she has kind of a typical thin-skinned appearance that people tend to get when they're older.

00:39:27.000 So, if there's some sort of struggle and her skin rips, that could cause it. 0.99

00:39:31.680 If she receives some sort of blunt force trauma to the face, she gets hit in the face, that could cause it.

00:39:37.500 You know, we often see blood dripping like this from a bleeding nose, but it really could be anything.

00:39:42.780 Can you rule anything out?

00:39:45.300 Because it is a little odd that there's so many perfect droplets.

00:39:51.400 You know, I don't know that we can rule anything out, but I do have some suspicion that perhaps she received this injury outside.

00:40:01.820 And the reason I say that is because when I look at the video, I really don't see any blood in the area of the door.

00:40:09.780 There's not any blood staining on the threshold.

00:40:12.200 There's not any blood staining or doesn't appear to be any blood staining on the door itself, which makes me wonder if she's already outside past that threshold when she receives this injury.

00:40:25.280 And if it's outside, you know, I know it's a fairly secluded area, but nobody heard anything.

00:40:31.240 So, that's probably something more like a strike or, you know, just a simple skin tear and not some sort of injury that's going to cause a very loud noise.

00:40:41.060 Why do you think that the blood droplets all appear to be intact?

00:40:46.160 You know, I'm just picturing, like, Nancy possibly walking, possibly with a bloody nose.

00:40:52.400 And it seems to me, especially with an elderly woman, that blood would fall, and then you'd likely step in it and possibly even drag your foot. 0.99

00:41:01.580 You know, a lot of elderly people shuffle for, you know, stability's sake. 0.96

00:41:08.820 Well, I do think that there are some stains that look a little bit strange.

00:41:12.920 They're irregular in shape, which could be transfer stains from something like, you know, the blood on the bottom of her feet.

00:41:18.800 But you're only going to step in that blood if you're standing in that area.

00:41:22.480 And if you're getting pulled or dragged away and you're moving pretty quickly or you're being carried away, you're not going to be leaving those types of stains.

00:41:32.440 You're not going to be stepping in that blood if you're moving away very quickly.

00:41:35.680 There's just not an opportunity to do that.

00:41:38.060 So you can't tell whether she walked of her own volition or was carried?

00:41:44.020 I don't think I can.

00:41:45.500 No.

00:41:45.900 I mean, you can see that there are some unusual-looking stains there, but I don't think it's enough to determine if it's from a foot, from a shoe.

00:41:55.380 Also, I think it's important to understand that this is after the crime scene has been released.

00:42:00.660 And we know that there was at least some sampling taken of these blood stains from crime scene responders.

00:42:06.180 So they could have caused some alteration to the way these stains look by taking their swabs.

00:42:11.240 You can see that parts of those blood stains are missing.

00:42:14.320 The center of some of those blood stains are starting to flake away.

00:42:17.080 Some of that could have been removed by crime scene responders as they're taking samples.

00:42:20.660 This may go back to the question you already answered about what you can't rule anything out necessarily, but not having been to any murder crime scenes, can you say that this was not, for example, a gunshot or like a stabbing wound because those would have produced a lot more blood?

00:42:41.040 I've heard some say this to me looks like a nosebleed where you get a fair amount of blood, but it falls pretty straightforward, you know, straight down as opposed to, forgive the term, but like a real gusher of a wound.

00:42:52.320 Yeah, it doesn't seem like the type of blood staining that you would get from a very serious injury like a gunshot.

00:42:59.620 We typically expect to see much smaller stains associated with a gunshot.

00:43:04.260 And then once you are bleeding from a serious injury, we do tend to see a lot more blood.

00:43:10.580 There are so many variables that can affect this.

00:43:13.160 You know, people oftentimes just bleed internally.

00:43:15.720 And certainly I've worked shooting homicides where there's almost no blood on scene, but it doesn't look to me like it's associated with something like a gunshot.

00:43:25.340 There's patterns that I would expect to see in a gunshot case that I don't see here, but we don't know what the inside of the house looks like.

00:43:32.640 Maureen and Fitz, do you guys have any questions you want to ask Amy?

00:43:37.160 I do.

00:43:38.940 Two things, Amy.

00:43:40.400 First, you think that these blood stains are consistent with someone moving quickly across the porch?

00:43:47.980 Well, I think the blood source is bleeding quickly because you can see all of these drips, right?

00:43:53.980 So if you're standing on this porch for a minute, you can be bleeding slowly, drip, drip, drip.

00:44:02.900 But that's probably not the situation.

00:44:05.760 You probably aren't hanging out, having a conversation out here at 2.30 in the morning in the middle of an abduction.

00:44:11.380 If you're trying to take Mrs. Guthrie away from the house, you're trying to get out of there.

00:44:17.340 So if she is being pulled or she is walking, then what we see is that much faster drip, drip, drip, drip, drip, a much more serious injury.

00:44:27.380 Because there are quite a lot of stains there.

00:44:30.680 Even down the sidewalk, you can see those stains are pretty close to each other.

00:44:35.100 So however she is bleeding, it's replenishing quite quickly.

00:44:39.780 But again, she's a lady of a certain age.

00:44:42.820 Right.

00:44:43.580 And they do tend to bleed.

00:44:44.760 And secondly, certainly the investigators have a much better idea as to where the blood came from.

00:44:53.080 Because if it came from her nose, there would be all kinds of residue in there.

00:44:57.140 If it came from her mouth, there would be all kinds of saliva, right?

00:45:00.440 So they would be able to rule some things out.

00:45:03.320 And they probably have a much better understanding of where, in fact, this blood came from.

00:45:07.980 Yeah, I would hope that there was some serological testing that was done.

00:45:12.580 We know that there was DNA analysis, and we know that this is Nancy Guthrie's blood.

00:45:16.800 But we can do serological testing to determine if there is saliva present in these stains.

00:45:23.500 I don't see any indication that there would be.

00:45:26.740 But we can certainly test for that in a laboratory setting.

00:45:31.060 That's interesting.

00:45:31.980 I didn't know that.

00:45:32.580 Maybe you could figure out what part of the body it may have come from.

00:45:34.840 Go ahead, Fitz.

00:45:35.320 Amy, I've been asked this question a few times over the last month.

00:45:41.360 The bleeding seems, or I should say the bloodstains, seems to have stopped at a certain point.

00:45:48.220 And the best I could speculate is either direct pressure was put on whatever the wound was by perhaps Nancy herself or the abductor,

00:45:59.460 or perhaps in whatever condition she was, the abductor picked her up.

00:46:04.400 I know she's about 140 pounds. 1.00

00:46:06.980 I guess a fit guy could carry someone, and perhaps the blood just kind of dripped down on whatever she was wearing at that time. 0.94

00:46:15.140 But you're the expert here.

00:46:17.040 Do you have any potential hypothesis as to why the blood drops stopped at a certain point?

00:46:25.860 Well, you know, the first thing that I think when we have something like this, a trail of drip stains, and then they stop, is that person got into a car.

00:46:33.960 That's the most obvious answer that kind of occurs to me.

00:46:37.240 But you're right.

00:46:37.800 If there's some sort of pressure applied, even by Nancy Guthrie herself, that's going to lessen the amount of blood, 1.00

00:46:44.900 which I think would suggest that she's able to at least tend to her wounds, maybe, you know, just able to put her hand over wherever is bleeding, 0.99

00:46:53.060 or maybe able to move her clothing around to cover so that the blood is being absorbed into her clothing and not dripping onto the concrete anymore. 0.99

00:47:02.360 But I think we really just don't know.

00:47:05.180 Those are answers that we just don't have right now.

00:47:07.500 I'd like to know what the rest of the driveway looked like at the beginning of crime scene processing.

00:47:14.520 You know, it's interesting to me that there was this much blood that was left outside after the crime scene was released.

00:47:21.580 That's probably not a choice that I would have made if I was managing this crime scene.

00:47:27.340 But since we do know that crime scene responders were there before these images were taken,

00:47:32.240 it's possible that there's more blood that was already collected and we just don't see it.

00:47:36.820 Ever been in a bad relationship?

00:47:38.520 You know the kind.

00:47:39.200 It just wears you down.

00:47:40.680 You settle in, even though deep down you know this is not how it's supposed to be.

00:47:44.260 Well, that's what daily aches and pains can feel like.

00:47:46.560 You stop expecting to feel good.

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00:49:56.800 And we think there may have been blood inside the house as well.

00:50:11.680 We know her DNA was there, but he won't specify that it was blood,

00:50:14.660 though Ashley Banfield's reporting it was.

00:50:17.260 Was that it, Fitz, or we're good?

00:50:19.580 No, I'm good with the blood. Thanks.

00:50:21.140 All right. Thank you, Doc. It's such a pleasure. We really appreciate it.

00:50:25.040 Thanks for having me.

00:50:26.840 Well, that's interesting, right?

00:50:28.200 It's like all along I've been wanting to hear from somebody who actually does this for a living.

00:50:31.260 As you know, there are these real experts.

00:50:33.320 I'm kind of relieved.

00:50:34.460 I know maybe it's simple at this point to say such a thing,

00:50:37.200 but I'm relieved that it didn't look like gunshot blood.

00:50:40.020 I know we don't have a whole lot of reason to believe that Nancy's alive still,

00:50:44.080 but I'm still relieved that maybe even to the expert it looked more like a possible nosebleed, guys.

00:50:49.560 I'm still so sad after watching the intro video you guys put together of everything that happened.

00:50:58.500 And there's this poor woman. 1.00

00:51:00.580 We've all been hoping and praying for her since the very beginning.

00:51:04.100 And this is just too much.

00:51:06.480 And my blood simultaneously is boiling with whoever did this to her.

00:51:10.740 Yeah, who's watching shows like this, as you've been pointing out, Fitz, enjoying it.

00:51:15.820 You know, to your point about the person who may have taken her because they're obsessed with Savannah

00:51:22.200 and just getting off on knowing now Savannah's thinking about him.

00:51:27.320 You know, like all this time Savannah's had to think about him and speculate about him.

00:51:32.160 And now that there's an image from the front door, you know, possibly think about the actual him.

00:51:37.640 It is.

00:51:38.680 It's infuriating.

00:51:39.720 And speaking of the photos, can I just ask you your thoughts on that?

00:51:43.420 But also this report now that they did recover some additional still images from the cameras

00:51:51.180 around Nancy's house, but no moving pictures, no video.

00:51:56.020 And they say ABC News is reporting, like, I don't know if I should say nothing of interest.

00:52:02.000 That's not fair.

00:52:03.640 But nothing incriminating, you know, random pictures that don't really tell us much.

00:52:11.680 I guess it's just to me, it seems like just yet another big disappointment, Jim.

00:52:17.520 I don't know.

00:52:18.440 What do you make of it?

00:52:19.220 The reports of they did get some photos, but not video.

00:52:22.440 And they are still checking, you know, at least at least they're still checking the cameras around her house.

00:52:28.940 And just to go back to the first part of what you said to me, if this person who abducted Mrs.

00:52:35.620 Guthrie had a trophy room before about Savannah with her pictures and little incense and candles,

00:52:42.180 I assure you they are, it is much more incorporated now in terms of a whole second wing of that trophy room or trophy section of the house

00:52:52.620 in terms of artifacts keeping to remind him of his very keen interest in Savannah.

00:52:59.540 And again, I'm not locking into that, but that's something that these guys, investigators, have to look into.

00:53:04.320 Let me just add one other detail before you get to the camera analysis.

00:53:10.620 ABC is reporting that the cameras recorded nothing suspicious.

00:53:14.500 That's how they put it, nothing suspicious.

00:53:16.540 But they were able to observe several people in the back and side yards over an unspecified period prior to the abduction.

00:53:24.220 And they said that also they have images of after Nancy was taken, law enforcement officers seeing near the pool.

00:53:30.920 However, the cameras captured nothing on the night of the abduction, said sources.

00:53:37.040 Investigators have drawn no conclusions as to why, but one source described it as odd.

00:53:42.660 No images on the night of the abduction.

00:53:45.620 I mean, why?

00:53:46.520 This is like the same thing as like the neighbors saying their cameras went off on, you know, the night of the abduction

00:53:54.320 for the period, they believe, around the time she was taken.

00:53:58.280 But we've had other smart analysts say they don't believe that the guy had a Wi-Fi jammer

00:54:04.660 because there's no way we'd be seeing those images of the guy pulling the vegetation out

00:54:08.780 and putting them on the doorbell if he had a Wi-Fi jammer on him.

00:54:12.460 You know, I don't know what to believe, but it is strange that they see lots of thumbnail images prior to her abduction,

00:54:18.360 the police after the abduction, but nothing the night of.

00:54:22.500 You know, in my early days as an investigator, some places would have surveillance cameras,

00:54:28.280 security cameras, and the bank cameras always work.

00:54:31.000 And I'm sure Maureen can attest to that.

00:54:32.440 You move the old film, take it, get it in process.

00:54:34.580 There you have pictures of the bank robbery in progress.

00:54:37.500 But invariably, the other ones, private security, whatever, if you're lucky,

00:54:41.160 you get half the time that they actually work.

00:54:43.340 Then we went to a whole point in time where all these cameras worked all the time,

00:54:47.320 and they saw so many cases, not just cases Maureen and I worked, but, you know,

00:54:52.180 other cases we read about in the media.

00:54:54.120 Now we have this case of Nancy Guthrie.

00:54:56.200 They have enough wherewithal to install a camera system in there and, you know,

00:55:01.540 even around the pool, whatever.

00:55:02.800 And we have these failures to perform, if you will,

00:55:07.220 or failures to provide an accurate recount of what happened that night.

00:55:13.420 And, yeah, I mean, the jammer part was always, I listened to, I think we discussed it last week,

00:55:18.440 and I listened to that part.

00:55:20.200 And, sure, it's a possibility, a little bit extra sophistication that I would have given this guy,

00:55:26.080 and really nothing else makes sense so far.

00:55:28.560 But does the person somehow know the system to begin with,

00:55:32.360 and it didn't require a sophisticated jammer-type mechanism,

00:55:36.220 but just knew the weaknesses and the flaws contained therein?

00:55:39.540 Or did they do something days or weeks before to somehow counteract that system?

00:55:44.700 I don't know.

00:55:45.360 He could have just been lucky, and these particular images don't work.

00:55:48.360 And the last thing I'll leave you with here is I appreciate all the sources that media people have.

00:55:53.780 I was never a source.

00:55:55.480 I never asked Maureen this question.

00:55:56.920 I'm positive she was never a source for a media outlet.

00:56:00.120 And you just have to be careful sometimes in what ABC and other outlets are reporting.

00:56:06.080 And I just have – we know for a fact, I will say this emphatically,

00:56:11.080 that the investigators have a lot more information, including surveillance images, than we know about.

00:56:17.340 Of course, they're not perfect, not all the ones they might want to see of the guy in progress,

00:56:21.020 but at the same time, they have more than we know.

00:56:23.800 And still shots, moving video people, could be animals, could be human.

00:56:28.820 These are all things that the investigators know, and hopefully they're pouring it down into a funnel,

00:56:34.920 and they have a little stream of evidence that they will eventually know will take them to the actual abductor.

00:56:40.880 I don't know, Maureen.

00:56:42.020 The neighbors are saying that their cameras stopped working on the night in question

00:56:45.400 right around the time that Nancy was taken.

00:56:46.980 But again, other experts are saying if you had a Wi-Fi jammer sophisticated enough

00:56:53.640 to jam the Wi-Fi at the neighbor's properties, there is zero chance we would have those images

00:57:00.220 of the guy coming onto the patio and messing with the ring doorbell.

00:57:05.180 Like if he had the Wi-Fi jammer and it shut things down at 147, right,

00:57:10.620 because they're saying the doorbells went offline at 147, cameras went offline,

00:57:14.860 but then an image was captured at 212, like what happened with the Wi-Fi jammer?

00:57:21.280 It worked at 147, and then we forgot to use it when we actually approached the house?

00:57:25.960 Well, it depends on the user.

00:57:28.440 You know, so much of this could be chalked up to user error, but I agree with Fitz.

00:57:33.740 I think a jammer just seems a little bit too sophisticated for that clown we saw on the front porch.

00:57:39.600 I think it's far more likely it was a walkie-talkie because clearly they didn't have their phones with them

00:57:46.300 or their phones certainly weren't on because we weren't able to find them.

00:57:50.440 The cast team wasn't able to find them, and they're the best in the world at this stuff.

00:57:54.820 So my guess is it's, hey, it's a walkie-talkie.

00:57:57.760 They're easy to get.

00:57:58.680 They're cheap.

00:57:59.440 You can buy them at a swap meet.

00:58:01.460 You can buy them anywhere.

00:58:02.800 And it's just like, yeah, we've got her at the front door, pull up to the front of the house.

00:58:07.160 The camera's been disabled.

00:58:08.500 So that's it.

00:58:09.080 So if it's a walkie-talkie, Maureen, he's got an accomplice.

00:58:13.420 Yeah, I believe he has an accomplice.

00:58:16.800 I've said that from the very beginning.

00:58:18.720 I think there are two people involved.

00:58:20.620 I don't think there were five people involved, but I think two people were involved.

00:58:24.900 And who knows?

00:58:25.460 Maybe the guy that was at the door is dead already because it's pretty hard to keep a secret

00:58:31.880 when you have, you know, two people involved and there's a million dollars on the table,

00:58:37.600 $1.2 million on the table.

00:58:40.620 It's hard.

00:58:42.620 Well, it would make perfect sense.

00:58:45.620 If that's a walkie-talkie, he's got somebody helping him.

00:58:48.280 But what doesn't make sense is, is that person around at the back door getting in that way?

00:58:53.000 Again, our report was that there was signs of force, Ashley reported that there were signs

00:58:57.740 of forced entry and that the back door was found wide open.

00:59:01.040 But why wouldn't the Nancy Ring cameras or other cameras on her property show any images

00:59:05.820 of someone in the backyard or the side yard on the night in question?

00:59:10.080 You know, maybe...

00:59:10.740 Because they could have been broken weeks before, like Fitz says.

00:59:14.040 I see it all the time.

00:59:15.400 My company, we do those video cameras, we install systems, we design systems, all that

00:59:24.320 kind of stuff.

00:59:25.180 You cannot believe how people have things hobbled together at their home and then they just

00:59:30.920 stop working or a tree branch fell and that whole side of the house isn't working.

00:59:36.860 It's, you know, it's oftentimes just a matter of that or the system becomes inoperable because

00:59:42.060 you added something else and accidentally disconnected these two cameras on the west side or something

00:59:47.440 along those lines.

00:59:48.860 I just want to show the picture that we do have of whatever that device is, whether it's

00:59:52.660 a Wi-Fi jammer or a walkie-talkie or something else.

00:59:56.040 It's on the side.

00:59:57.040 In the front, you see the gun, that black and white thing is the gun in the front.

01:00:01.800 But if you look on the side, we put a little circle around it.

01:00:04.580 That's it.

01:00:05.240 I don't know what that is.

01:00:07.020 Why do we think it's a walkie-talkie, Maureen?

01:00:09.560 I think it's a walkie-talkie because that's the same type of antenna that you can get

01:00:16.920 on a lot of these inexpensive walkie-talkies.

01:00:20.000 The antenna will never, I mean, you have to have giant pockets for you to be able to put

01:00:24.560 the whole thing in there like that.

01:00:26.480 It's certainly not a phone like a lot of people were saying because the last thing you

01:00:29.920 want is for your iPhone to be flopping out of your pockets and left at a crime scene.

01:00:34.860 That's, you know, that's a great way to get caught.

01:00:37.640 But you can see it's one of those.

01:00:39.980 Now, some of the jammers have a very similar antenna, but the jammers, in my opinion, have

01:00:46.900 a couple of antennas.

01:00:48.000 And they're not that strong.

01:00:49.220 They usually wouldn't be able to go all the way to the neighbors unless it was a really 0.71

01:00:53.420 high-quality one.

01:00:54.760 Not so much military-grade, but it would have to be a pretty high-quality one.

01:00:59.620 Or you'd have to have another person standing over at the neighbors with their inexpensive

01:01:03.840 jammer, which is just getting too complicated.

01:01:07.680 It's getting too complicated.

01:01:08.820 Go ahead, Fitz.

01:01:10.640 Two things related to that last picture you showed to us.

01:01:17.360 It can't be ruled out that that device is not necessarily a walkie-talkie, but a police

01:01:23.980 scanner.

01:01:25.280 And this person may have an interest in listening to the police, what they're doing.

01:01:29.080 It doesn't mean he's doing it in real time as he's doing this, but it may have some kind

01:01:32.280 of a headphone connection.

01:01:33.580 And when he gets back in the car, he can certainly follow, if there's been a 911 call of any sort,

01:01:38.380 suspicious.

01:01:39.500 I can't rule out.

01:01:40.260 And of course, it is a walkie-talkie.

01:01:41.680 There's at least another person involved.

01:01:43.740 And none of us ruled that early on.

01:01:47.020 There's cases of serial killers.

01:01:48.840 One well-known case in Canada from like 30 years ago was a husband and wife, or at least

01:01:52.860 a man and woman partner, and she would help him entice these young women, do his van,

01:01:58.060 and he would do his thing after that.

01:01:59.980 And the other part is, just look at that picture.

01:02:02.100 I happened to watch one of my favorite movies over the weekend, Tombstone.

01:02:05.300 And you look at the very end, the Doc Holliday confrontation with Johnny Ringo.

01:02:11.040 That's how Doc Holliday held his gun, or the holster part of it, was in front of his waist.

01:02:15.780 Not exactly in front of the groin, like this guy here, but very close.

01:02:20.560 And I already mentioned that.

01:02:21.620 Is this guy a fan of the Zodiac Killer with the mask he choose to wear?

01:02:26.220 I know your folks even found it in real time.

01:02:27.980 They put that picture up of the Zodiac person.

01:02:30.380 Now we have someone wearing a holster like Doc Holliday did in the movie portrayed by Val

01:02:35.420 Kilmer.

01:02:35.940 Well, and that movie got a lot of play over the past year since Val Kilmer died.

01:02:40.840 Even we watched it, and I'm not big on Westerns.

01:02:43.160 But, you know, that could have been in the consciousness of somebody for a good reason.

01:02:48.000 Yeah, that's a good point.

01:02:49.520 I want to keep going, because there's a couple of other facts around the initial days that

01:02:53.260 she was missing that we should get to in this episode.

01:02:55.620 And that includes the fact that the crime scene was turned over to the family within

01:02:59.980 two days of Nancy's disappearance.

01:03:01.580 I mean, less than.

01:03:02.380 She went missing.

01:03:03.580 As of Sunday morning, they discovered it.

01:03:05.560 And by Monday evening, he had surrendered the crime scene back to the family.

01:03:09.460 I mean, it was very strange, and it was very quick.

01:03:11.780 And he said, the scene is done.

01:03:14.200 We're done with the residence.

01:03:15.360 If we need to go back, we will.

01:03:17.720 But we've turned it over to the family.

01:03:19.480 And then on February 5th, fresh crime scene tape wrapped around the length of the house

01:03:24.540 and was then promptly taken back down.

01:03:26.760 Then on February 8th, the sheriff's office said it's going to keep a security presence

01:03:30.740 at the home for security concerns.

01:03:32.120 On February 25th, that was the day that they went back and they spent considerable time

01:03:39.080 near the front door, appearing to focus on the porch and the walkway where the trail of

01:03:42.800 blood was discovered.

01:03:43.620 We believe that was the day the FBI went and took pictures.

01:03:46.220 But why, why, Fitz, would he turn the crime scene back over to the family so early in this?

01:03:53.600 And then a related, I think, question is, why didn't this sheriff accept help from anyone

01:04:01.480 in the searching?

01:04:03.360 I have never covered a missing person case where they don't have the citizen grid search.

01:04:11.620 You know, they're all but holding hands, covering the acreage around where the person was last seen

01:04:16.040 to make sure they didn't lose a phone, they didn't lose a sneaker, there isn't a strand of hair.

01:04:22.740 Time and time again, he turned down those offers from reputable search groups with very successful

01:04:30.360 track records just saying it's going to interfere with law enforcement.

01:04:33.720 So he turned the house back over immediately to the family and he rejected outside help.

01:04:39.900 Thoughts on those?

01:04:40.520 I think the second part of your question answers the first part.

01:04:46.680 Clearly, the house was turned over too soon.

01:04:50.160 And they could have had a full-time team in there of 25 evidence response team members,

01:04:55.180 you know, going through it.

01:04:56.340 But even 48 hours, I think, would be too much or too soon, I should say, to let it go.

01:05:01.600 And the fact that he wasn't looking for assistance or at least additional help outside,

01:05:06.200 at least not publicly, of which we are aware, that could explain why some of these

01:05:10.460 tasty decisions were made in this regard.

01:05:13.340 Any crime scene is a treasure trove of evidence, but you have to know how to look for it and find it.

01:05:19.240 And of course, some scenes have more evidence than others, depending on the sophistication level

01:05:23.380 of the offender or offenders.

01:05:26.440 But the scene was turned over too early.

01:05:29.280 And I think, you know, I'm not going to overtly criticize the sheriff here, but elected officials

01:05:35.080 around for a long time, just in the last week, some things came out from his past when I think

01:05:39.240 he was with El Paso PD, some questions about some things back then.

01:05:43.680 I believe you can get an ego and you surround yourself with yes men and women.

01:05:48.600 And this is how I'm going to run it.

01:05:50.100 This is what I'm doing. 0.97

01:05:51.040 And then all of a sudden, it comes back to kick him in the in the in the rear end.

01:05:55.020 And and I realized then that he had to retighten it again.

01:05:58.100 But once you let a crime scene go to pizza delivery, men, media people, otherwise you're going to

01:06:03.300 potentially lose some evidence there.

01:06:05.640 There's never any mistake to be made to hold a crime scene longer.

01:06:09.440 So, yeah, I think there's some maybe some hubris on the part early on of the of the sheriff.

01:06:15.200 And I'm not going to overly criticize him.

01:06:17.100 I haven't really called him names or like some other people have.

01:06:19.780 But I think releasing I think bringing help in earlier on and they would have been they

01:06:24.240 would have then suggested don't release the house yet.

01:06:26.720 Give us time to go over it and give it a good week or two.

01:06:29.600 And maybe at that point, safely release it with all the evidence collected.

01:06:34.220 Thoughts on that, Maureen, on either one of those points?

01:06:36.380 Yeah.

01:06:36.560 Having been on the evidence response team for decades, I can tell you that we would have

01:06:42.280 secured the entire scene.

01:06:44.680 We would have expanded the crime scene.

01:06:46.840 We would have had the crime scene tape all the way around that house so that we could

01:06:51.240 really thoroughly take our time and go through it with the primary scene, the secondary scene,

01:06:56.480 which would be the exterior, the entryway, the porch, the yard.

01:07:00.720 We would have taken that mat because he was standing on the mat, moving around on the mat.

01:07:06.580 What was on the bottom of his shoes?

01:07:08.580 Fibers from the interior of his vehicle.

01:07:11.140 Dirt from the yard where he keeps his boots or on his back porch.

01:07:15.400 Dog hair from his family pet.

01:07:17.700 There are just so many things that can be on the treads of your shoes that that mat would

01:07:22.480 have just been very important to me.

01:07:24.020 It would have also been important because there could have been blood droppings on that mat as

01:07:28.880 well.

01:07:30.400 Also, with that bite light in his mouth, his mouth had to be watering.

01:07:35.980 I'm sure he got it on his gloves.

01:07:37.980 You can see when you see that close-up photo of his face with the face mask on that it's

01:07:44.040 slightly eschewed, almost like he was wiping his nose or his mouth because that bite light

01:07:49.580 was causing him to salivate.

01:07:51.480 That could have been, there could be saliva on that mat.

01:07:56.140 I also would have really done a number on that door.

01:08:00.300 You know, a lot of police officers say they would have taken that front door.

01:08:03.740 You can, if you take the door, you can just slow everything down and you can have just

01:08:08.820 like a, when you're in the lab and you have a big piece of evidence, you can stand around

01:08:14.000 with a bunch of 10-pound brains and you could say, all right, we could do this or should

01:08:17.500 we start with that?

01:08:18.400 Or what's our number one goal?

01:08:20.680 Back in the day, it was, do we want DNA or do we want fingerprints?

01:08:25.460 Well, now you can get both.

01:08:27.060 But you have to be very, very careful in your approach and the way you develop that DNA and

01:08:34.760 take possession of that evidence for testing.

01:08:38.160 So there were just a whole lot of things.

01:08:40.100 The shoe or the vehicle impressions was the driveway.

01:08:44.240 They may have been destroyed when the police vehicles pulled up in the driveway when they

01:08:48.980 thought it was a walkaway, which is understandable.

01:08:53.600 But there, it was just too soon, I think.

01:08:57.960 And the Bureau would have just sent in, as Fitz was saying and I said earlier, just teams of

01:09:04.300 people, one team for the primary, one for the secondary, one for the tertiary, and the

01:09:09.940 team to do the whole grid search, like we talked about.

01:09:13.780 I just, I don't get it.

01:09:15.100 Like I haven't done, I haven't solved a case as a member of law enforcement, but I've covered

01:09:19.720 so many missing persons cases.

01:09:21.500 And you just always see it.

01:09:22.880 We're used to see it.

01:09:24.220 We're used to, it gives the family something to do.

01:09:26.280 You know, to be out there hand in hand with volunteers to look for any little clue.

01:09:32.940 And there's so much area to cover.

01:09:34.800 This is like a wide array of desert right around where Nancy lives.

01:09:38.420 It just doesn't make any sense to me.

01:09:40.640 I wanted to follow up on, this is the aerial view of Nancy's house.

01:09:44.620 You can just see it's just huge, huge, so much, so many places to go.

01:09:48.340 And since we don't have any clear evidence of the car driving away, you know, the foot search

01:09:52.380 seems pretty relevant.

01:09:53.560 I want to go back to possible suspects.

01:09:57.040 So we talked about how the sheriff said, you're not safe.

01:10:01.320 I mean, like for lack of a better term, he's now saying to the community, don't relax.

01:10:05.820 Yeah, you're safe.

01:10:06.900 Don't anybody put your, you're not safe.

01:10:08.560 Don't put your guard down.

01:10:09.520 Like, oh, great, sheriff.

01:10:10.460 Thanks a lot.

01:10:11.380 So that would suggest if he's sincere, that he's leaning more toward not a stalker and not

01:10:17.740 a family member, like an actual burglar, abductor, intruder type.

01:10:22.460 And there was a little bit more of that interview with the NBC News reporter, the local reporter,

01:10:27.360 Liz Krutz.

01:10:29.260 Along those lines, I want to show you the second stalk we had cut here.

01:10:32.620 Watch.

01:10:33.760 There is something that's come out in the investigation that gives you a sense of motive

01:10:37.960 here and why this person did this.

01:10:39.940 You know, I think it's come out from the from day one.

01:10:42.740 I think from day one, we had some strong beliefs about what happened and those beliefs haven't

01:10:47.860 diminished.

01:10:48.600 Do you believe it was a burglary gone wrong?

01:10:50.300 I'm not going to get into those theories.

01:10:52.540 We have our beliefs.

01:10:54.280 Everybody else has theirs.

01:10:55.960 Nano says he's intentionally withholding their theory and other details in the case, citing

01:11:00.300 the integrity of the investigation.

01:11:03.300 So he's saying something without saying something there, right, Maureen?

01:11:06.480 Like from day one, we had strong beliefs about what happened and those beliefs haven't

01:11:11.860 diminished.

01:11:12.480 Right.

01:11:15.720 It sounds to me like it's the Corey Richens case all over again or a number of other,

01:11:22.480 you know, just a myriad of other big cases where it takes a while to build this cage around

01:11:27.860 this individual.

01:11:29.260 And you have to you can think someone's guilty all you want.

01:11:32.260 A lot of people do think some people are guilty in this case and other people suspect

01:11:36.520 other people.

01:11:37.180 But you have to be able to prove it in a court of law.

01:11:40.480 You have to have it locked down with all kinds of evidence.

01:11:44.800 And you have to really take a close look at the exculpatory evidence and make sure that

01:11:49.480 that is what it looks like and disprove it.

01:11:53.140 Can I ask you about that?

01:11:54.140 The Corey Richens thing, just for the listening audience in case they don't remember that

01:11:57.880 case we talked about on Kelly's court last week.

01:12:00.180 But she's the woman who is accused, she's on trial right now of killing her husband with

01:12:04.140 fentanyl in his Moscow mule cocktail.

01:12:07.680 She, a year later, published a children's book on grief, how to deal with grief of loss

01:12:12.920 of a parent.

01:12:13.500 Meanwhile, she's alleged to have killed her husband.

01:12:16.220 And she got arrested three days after the publication of her book and is now on trial for

01:12:20.200 his murder.

01:12:21.320 She says it was a suicide and that he was depressed.

01:12:24.560 But all the while, they let her be free.

01:12:27.480 And that whole year, clearly they were building a case against her.

01:12:29.760 So when you say it's like the Corey Richens case, do you mean, are you suggesting maybe

01:12:33.540 the sheriff has, let's say, a family member or someone known to Nancy who they're building

01:12:38.680 the cage around right now?

01:12:41.620 Yeah, I mean, yes, I think there's someone they think may have done something.

01:12:47.020 Maybe it's a handyman.

01:12:48.920 Maybe it's a delivery man.

01:12:50.240 I don't know who it is.

01:12:51.700 But whoever they're thinking, I think they're building the cage right now.

01:12:57.340 That's what I call it.

01:12:58.200 Well, that would explain his more confident statements, you know, suggesting we think

01:13:03.760 we know the motive, number one.

01:13:05.880 And then in the follow-up saying from day one, we had strong beliefs about what happened

01:13:10.120 and those beliefs have not diminished.

01:13:13.140 So he's definitely got a theory of the crime.

01:13:17.020 And he says it's only gotten stronger.

01:13:19.200 It sounds like he's not since learned that he was wrong about his initial instincts, which,

01:13:25.360 again, I think we all believe were probably that she was murdered, just for one thing,

01:13:30.200 because he did call it a crime scene.

01:13:33.040 He called in homicide and he called off the search for her within 24 hours.

01:13:36.480 So even though he gave a lot of like, we have to believe she's still out there comments,

01:13:41.640 his behavior was more telling, in my view.

01:13:44.760 So that leads me to who?

01:13:49.320 Well, some of that saying, we still have hope.

01:13:55.280 We hope she's out there.

01:13:56.740 We really want to bring her home alive, please.

01:13:59.680 Some of that is to try to get the offender to slip up and try to go for the money.

01:14:08.100 But that hasn't worked.

01:14:09.320 Whoever this offender or these offenders are, they've just felt that going for the money

01:14:15.240 is too dangerous.

01:14:16.140 They can't do it.

01:14:16.920 They just can't do it without getting caught.

01:14:19.960 That's their belief.

01:14:20.900 That's what I think.

01:14:21.840 If that was ever their goal, at least I would add here.

01:14:24.580 Yes.

01:14:26.020 Right.

01:14:27.040 Now, that leads me to one of the people who we've discussed as somebody they may be looking

01:14:32.940 at.

01:14:33.280 And the whole question of the brother-in-law, again, do not mean to suggest that the brother-in-law

01:14:37.420 committed this crime, but he's one of the family members and he was the last one to

01:14:40.580 see her.

01:14:40.860 So he's fair game to discuss.

01:14:42.840 I told the audience last week, my own information is that Savannah Guthrie is very angry. 1.00

01:14:47.580 People are discussing the brother-in-law or anyone in her family.

01:14:50.760 She clearly believes her family are all innocent victims and had nothing to do with her mother's

01:14:55.680 abduction for what it's worth.

01:14:57.320 You know, I mean, on the one hand, you would expect her to defend her family.

01:15:00.940 On the other hand, she does know them and we don't.

01:15:02.920 So it does count for something.

01:15:06.080 Yes.

01:15:06.120 Having said that, the sheriff's messaging around the brother-in-law has been yet another

01:15:12.920 thing that's been very confused and ever-changing and did the family no favors.

01:15:17.420 Let's face it.

01:15:18.380 He started off to the New York Times on February 4th.

01:15:23.580 As a reminder, Nancy was taken overnight, January 31st into February 1st.

01:15:29.680 By February 4th, he was telling the New York Times, Ms. Guthrie was taken sometime between

01:15:33.640 9.45 p.m. on Saturday and Sunday morning.

01:15:36.720 She had dinner with her daughter, Annie, and her son-in-law, Tommaso.

01:15:40.520 And the son-in-law, Tommaso Sioni, dropped her off and ensured she made it inside safely

01:15:45.700 before leaving the sheriff at it.

01:15:47.760 So he specifically told the New York Times that it was Tommaso who dropped Nancy off at home.

01:15:56.020 In other words, the last person to see her other than the abductor.

01:16:00.500 Then, the next day, on February 5th, he said the following about who dropped her off.

01:16:09.220 You know, there's also conflicting reports about who was the last person to actually

01:16:12.600 see Nancy and drive her home. 0.82

01:16:15.040 We know she took an Uber to Annie's house, but can you confirm whether it was Annie or

01:16:18.980 her son-in-law, Tommaso, who took her home that night?

01:16:21.420 I think the timeline that the sheriff provided was a family member, but it was family.

01:16:25.240 We're going to go with family.

01:16:27.460 We're going to go with. 0.92

01:16:29.160 Which is just so ridiculous. 0.78

01:16:30.840 You just told us that it was Tommaso, you know? 0.75

01:16:33.840 Well, it was also a prompt, though, Megan, from the FBI, prompted him to say,

01:16:39.180 we're going to go with family member, you know?

01:16:41.600 Right.

01:16:42.100 Like, you should have done that the first time, and you didn't.

01:16:45.440 And the messaging in general around the family has been all over the board.

01:16:51.360 I mean, he wants us to not suspect the family, but he doesn't actually have any real reason

01:16:56.720 to tell us not to suspect them.

01:16:57.880 We just came up with this.

01:16:59.420 So Tuesday, February 3rd, was an Ashley Banfield reported that a law enforcement source told

01:17:03.840 her the brother-in-law may be the prime suspect.

01:17:07.400 Then the car of Annie and Tommaso got towed and impounded and is in evidence.

01:17:13.100 As of that same date, Tuesday, February 3rd.

01:17:15.180 February 5th, Sheriff Nanos.

01:17:17.340 We've not identified a suspect or a person of interest.

01:17:19.420 Nobody's been eliminated.

01:17:20.240 Everyone's still a suspect.

01:17:22.280 February 7th, they were inside Annie Guthrie's Arizona home for hours.

01:17:27.260 The law enforcement officers were taking photographs of multiple rooms until about 10.30

01:17:30.860 p.m. local time.

01:17:32.000 February 16th, Sheriff Nanos to the local Tucson affiliate.

01:17:35.420 Not one single person in the family is a suspect.

01:17:38.180 They've been ruled out as suspects since the first few days of the investigation.

01:17:42.020 I am saying they are clear.

01:17:43.800 We have cleared them.

01:17:45.440 He said, to be clear, the Guthrie family, to include all siblings and spouses, has been cleared as possible suspects in the case.

01:17:55.000 The next day, February 17th, at this point, the Guthrie family, including siblings and spouses, has not been identified as suspects.

01:18:04.880 They have not – so he's walking back.

01:18:08.900 They're cleared to – well, they haven't been identified as suspects.

01:18:12.720 So, I mean, he's just – I mean, I can't – like, I'm – it's annoying me yet again, Fitz, because he caused this.

01:18:20.240 I'm sorry, but he helped cause this.

01:18:23.180 Well, I think we can safely say he is consistent in his inconsistencies, and certainly when it comes to the family itself.

01:18:31.080 And I hate – I hate, you know, this, you know, ruling out of family members or other people early on.

01:18:38.160 And I can only envision a prosecutor someday getting this case if it so happens.

01:18:42.740 It is somebody who was cleared in a case.

01:18:44.500 I'll just keep it generic here, and they have to know – and they have to bring charges against that person and put them before a jury when a sheriff or some other DA or whomever said, no, no, no, they've been cleared all along.

01:18:54.020 You never clear anybody.

01:18:55.320 And there's other cases I've worked I've been directly involved in.

01:18:57.480 I've even been sued over in which people, family members, were automatically ruled out by the DA.

01:19:04.460 So no one can be here.

01:19:06.080 I still say one of the strongest family members – I hope they've interviewed and re-interviewed this person – was the child of Annie and Tommaso.

01:19:16.160 And I think there's only one.

01:19:17.380 Maybe there's another one.

01:19:18.100 I'm not sure.

01:19:18.960 But I think that person separately interviewed –

01:19:21.000 I think we figured out that he's about 20.

01:19:23.180 Deb will double-check me on that. 0.66

01:19:24.780 I think, yes, keep going.

01:19:26.400 And I've heard 20, and I've heard 11.

01:19:29.140 Oh, no, no, no.

01:19:29.660 Sorry, sorry.

01:19:30.200 No.

01:19:30.400 She said it's a son who's eight.

01:19:31.980 A son who's eight.

01:19:33.180 Okay.

01:19:33.800 Now eight.

01:19:34.360 Okay.

01:19:34.680 I believe that person could be a wealth of information regardless of the age.

01:19:39.980 And I believe they were in the house that night when Nancy came over for dinner to Annie and Tommaso's house.

01:19:45.760 And, again, I'm not – again, careful here not to cast dispersions, but that person is sort of almost a neutral arbiter, wouldn't have enough sense at a relatively early age to know how to cover things up if, in fact, there is any sort of a cover-up.

01:19:59.400 And there's experts out there, and I've known a few of them over the years with the FBI.

01:20:04.420 They're full-time expertise is, in fact, interviewing young children, you know, three, four, five, even younger sometimes.

01:20:12.700 But certainly an eight-year-old has their will and their wits about them.

01:20:16.720 So, yeah.

01:20:17.880 So no one can be ruled out why the sheriff insisted on doing that.

01:20:21.540 There may have been pressure from the Guthrie family to do so.

01:20:25.120 Yes, for sure there was.

01:20:27.080 Accusations and intimations, whatever.

01:20:29.320 Sheriff, you've got to get out there and say something.

01:20:31.080 Well, I really can't – and back and forth, and something was negotiated, and he went out and said that.

01:20:36.460 Then kind of came back a little bit the next day.

01:20:38.580 I can't figure that out either.

01:20:39.880 I don't know.

01:20:40.540 Is he Clouseau or is he Colombo?

01:20:42.520 I'm not sure.

01:20:43.360 Yeah.

01:20:44.340 Does it tell us anything, Maureen, that he's telling the NBC affiliate, I've had my theory from day one, and I've – basically, I haven't moved off of it.

01:20:51.780 I've only had more reason to believe my theory.

01:20:55.240 And since day one, you know, I mean, day 17, he was saying, they're cleared.

01:21:00.580 They've all been cleared.

01:21:02.160 I mean, he did reverse it.

01:21:03.260 You know, he dialed it back a little by saying, well, none of them has been identified as a suspect.

01:21:09.400 But does it tell us, potentially, that he doesn't believe the family had anything to do with it when he's saying, today, I've had the same theory since the beginning.

01:21:17.780 My theory has only gotten stronger.

01:21:19.520 And in that time, he did come out to say all of the family have been cleared.

01:21:24.620 Yes.

01:21:24.980 I mean, if you believe he's not going to change his mind again, this is why – I'm a logic-driven thinker.

01:21:32.080 And when things go wonky and back and forth like this, I just – I have a very difficult time with it.

01:21:39.100 He's a law enforcement official.

01:21:41.440 His PIO should be handling this.

01:21:43.920 It should be a clear and concise message every single time.

01:21:48.100 And that's never what we've received.

01:21:49.700 And the other thing you should be doing with your PIO or your messaging in general is to assuage any of the fears that your constituents or the citizens of your AOR have.

01:22:04.340 And that's not happening either.

01:22:06.380 So I just don't know what to think with this person.

01:22:10.160 But I agree.

01:22:11.000 It sounds like whatever his opinion was at the beginning, it's just gotten stronger.

01:22:15.760 But that's in complete contrast to other things that we've heard.

01:22:21.000 Yes.

01:22:21.540 So your guess is as good as mine.

01:22:22.900 Like him saying in the beginning, there's no threat.

01:22:26.160 Don't worry.

01:22:26.940 We believe this was targeted.

01:22:28.360 That's what he said in the beginning.

01:22:29.400 And now today, you should be afraid.

01:22:32.000 You're not safe.

01:22:32.760 Batting down the hatches.

01:22:34.340 Yeah.

01:22:35.340 Everybody get guns.

01:22:37.240 I so agree with you, though, Maureen.

01:22:39.380 That's one of the things I love about you is that I, too, am a very logical thinker.

01:22:43.300 Like my logical reasoning is probably my strongest communication skill.

01:22:47.240 And I love it to be linear, a thread that I can follow that takes me someplace or doesn't, you know, in sort of a logical fashion.

01:22:54.480 But this guy is so, it's almost like ADD on steroids.

01:22:59.000 He's like all over the place.

01:23:00.240 He says something, then he reverses it, then he dials it back a little, then he contradicts that.

01:23:04.480 Then he does something that undermines all of it.

01:23:06.380 And in the end, I have no idea about anything, which is why we finished this whole hour plus today.

01:23:14.500 We don't actually have a leading theory right now amongst us on whether it was an intruder, it was a real kidnapper, it was a family member, or it was some random, you know, passerby or like a thief who went in there.

01:23:30.260 Or never mind Mexican drug cartel.

01:23:32.180 It's like we all have like a general like, hey, if you just want to ask me over a cocktail what I think happened, I'll tell you.

01:23:37.640 But you can't really build the case for anything right now because nothing real has been shared by this guy.

01:23:43.300 No, but I'm taking great solace in the fact that the investigators are outstanding.

01:23:49.480 They're working together.

01:23:51.080 They're just doing, the trial is going to be epic.

01:23:55.160 This person's going to get caught.

01:23:57.400 I'm not sure if we're ever going to get Nancy back.

01:24:00.340 I have to tell you, I'm losing faith on that, and that absolutely breaks my heart.

01:24:05.660 But this person is going to get caught.

01:24:08.760 They are going to get charged, and the trial is going to be epic.

01:24:12.500 And we're going to see that this person that thinks they're so smart really wasn't that smart, just like all the others.

01:24:18.700 And they're going to get taken down.

01:24:23.040 My team is not, they're trying to figure out how old Annie and Tommaso's son is, and it's unclear.

01:24:28.920 But we think he was around seven and a half in December of 2020.

01:24:35.420 So if that's true, here we are, what, six years after that, and he'd be around 13 or early teens.

01:24:41.340 But we don't know for sure.

01:24:43.060 We're just looking at pictures, and he appears to be a little older than Savannah's daughter, who's 11.

01:24:48.860 So that would track maybe early teens, in any event, just to answer our question from before.

01:24:53.780 Oh, there you go.

01:24:54.460 Yeah.

01:24:55.220 That's right.

01:24:55.840 I forgot he was in that.

01:24:56.240 But to your point, Fitz, of an age where you would be more than capable of speaking to what you had seen and witnessed with your grandma in your house that last night,

01:25:03.480 and any other details, and maybe they did speak to him, and maybe that's why the cops were back there photographing me inside of that house at 1030 at night.

01:25:10.100 As Maureen pointed out when we talked about it, the very same time that Nancy would have been inside the home, you know, just before she went missing.

01:25:19.520 All right.

01:25:19.760 So to sum up, we know very little.

01:25:25.000 I did think the walkie-talkie piece of this was very interesting, that if that was a walkie-talkie, he has an accomplice.

01:25:32.960 And I do think the blood information is new, too, right?

01:25:35.720 Like, our blood expert did not think she saw the blood you'd have potentially after a massive wound from, like, a gunshot or a stabbing,

01:25:43.820 and did think potentially it was the blood falling from a woman who was being forced to or walking quickly, potentially toward a car.

01:25:51.780 Let's be honest.

01:25:52.860 America can still be a dangerous place, and you cannot afford to wait for help.

01:25:57.520 Sure, you could use a firearm, but in today's America, defending yourself with deadly force could have legal consequences.

01:26:03.440 According to FBI data, 99.9% of all altercations do not require lethal force, and that's exactly why so many are turning to Berna.

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01:26:39.480 No background checks, no waiting periods, and Berna can ship straight to your door. 0.93

01:26:44.520 Take responsibility.

01:26:45.820 Protect your future.

01:26:47.260 Visit berna.com right now or your local sportsman's warehouse.

01:26:50.660 That's b-y-r-n-a.com or your local sportsman's warehouse.

01:26:54.700 Visit now and be prepared to defend.

01:26:56.880 There'll be many more questions we need to ask and answer later.

01:27:02.060 Love doing it with the two of you.

01:27:03.520 Fitz, Maureen, thank you.

01:27:05.340 Thank you.

01:27:06.100 Thank you, Megan.

01:27:07.640 Tomorrow, in part two of our series, a closer look at the suspect and potential accomplice theory and at the ransom notes.

01:27:17.140 Don't miss that.

01:27:18.000 We'll talk to you then.

01:27:18.560 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. 0.94

01:27:23.620 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

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The Megyn Kelly Show - March 17, 2026

Bloodstain Analysis, Sheriff's ＂Theory＂ - Part 1 of Megyn Kelly Investigates Nancy Guthrie's Disappearance ｜ Ep. 1274

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