The Megyn Kelly Show - Bombshell Leak Signals Roe Will Be Overturned, with Bill Barr, Allie Beth Stuckey and Alan Dershowitz ｜ Ep. 313

00:00:00.520 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:11.580 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. It's a special show today.

00:00:16.960 I am thrilled to have our very first in-studio guest, and we are live at SiriusXM for that, and it's a special guy.

00:00:24.400 It could not have come at a better time either.

00:00:26.740 In just moments, I will be joined by former Attorney General William Barr.

00:00:31.740 What a day to have him, right?

00:00:33.340 As we were preparing for this interview, a disturbing development out of the United States Supreme Court, a leak unlike any we have ever seen before.

00:00:42.920 Late yesterday, the website Politico, revealing that the court has voted to overturn Roe v. Wade, that's the 1973 decision on abortion,

00:00:52.500 why we have this news before we have the court opinion, is because someone did something very unethical and deeply upsetting,

00:01:00.660 no matter where your position is on the actual case law that they're deciding.

00:01:05.860 The news comes just months after the justices heard arguments on a Mississippi law that makes most abortions illegal after 15 weeks of pregnancy.

00:01:14.140 Somehow, Politico got its hands on an early draft of the decision, it's dated February, written by Justice Samuel Alito, one of the court's conservatives,

00:01:23.480 calling Roe, quote, egregiously wrong from the start and saying, quote,

00:01:27.340 it is time to heed the Constitution and return the issue of abortion to the people's elected representatives.

00:01:34.140 Moments ago, Chief Justice John Roberts acknowledged that the document is authentic, but stressed that it does not represent the final position of the court.

00:01:43.440 Indeed, the justices go back and forth on their positions until the opinions are actually issued.

00:01:49.080 This one was expected to come out in June.

00:01:51.500 In addition, it's important to note that this does not make abortion illegal in America.

00:01:56.540 If this winds up being the final decision, it would likely lead to stricter limits on abortion access in some 22 to 26 states, however.

00:02:06.020 But putting all of that aside, perhaps the even bigger story, at least for today and this week, is the leak itself,

00:02:12.780 the magnitude of which cannot be overstated.

00:02:15.140 Historians and court watchers cannot recall another instance of someone leaking a draft opinion from the nation's highest court.

00:02:21.060 I practiced law for 10 years.

00:02:22.200 I covered the high court for three or four.

00:02:24.560 Never seen anything like this.

00:02:26.540 The chief justice himself, just a short time ago, calling it a betrayal, meant to undermine the integrity of the court.

00:02:32.640 One, he says, will not succeed.

00:02:35.340 And he has directed an investigation by the court marshal into the source of the leak.

00:02:39.860 We're already seeing protests erupt and the political wolves are out for revenge, demanding lawmakers codify federal abortion rights immediately.

00:02:48.680 There's talk about ending the filibuster so that the Democrats can push it through right away before we have midterm elections.

00:02:54.700 That's where we are today.

00:02:55.680 A few minutes ago, President Biden also responded at Joint Base Andrews while on his way to Alabama.

00:03:01.660 Listen, all the decisions related to your private life, who you marry, whether or not you decide to conceive a child or not, whether or not you can have an abortion, a range of other decisions, whether or not how you raise your child.

00:03:14.520 What does this do and does this mean that in Florida they can decide they're going to pass a law saying that same-sex marriage is not condiscible?

00:03:24.260 It's against the law in Florida.

00:03:26.360 So there's a whole, it's a fundamental shift.

00:03:30.120 There's so many fundamental rights that are affected by that.

00:03:33.340 And I'm not allowed, I'm not prepared to leave that to the whims and the public at the moment.

00:03:42.460 Let's bring in our first guest, author of the book, One Damn Thing After Another, former Attorney General William Barr.

00:03:49.260 Welcome to the show.

00:03:54.140 So great to have you here.

00:03:54.940 Thanks, Macon.

00:03:55.200 It's great to be here.

00:03:55.880 And today of all days.

00:03:56.940 Wow.

00:03:57.560 Were you stunned when you saw this leak yesterday?

00:03:59.540 Yeah, I was flabbergasted.

00:04:01.440 It really is unprecedented.

00:04:02.920 With all the, you know, our institutions have become increasingly politicized, but I never imagined this could happen to the Supreme Court, which has always protected its confidentiality.

00:04:14.980 And for someone to let this out in order to influence the final decision is really beyond the pale.

00:04:21.940 Do you think that's the motivation?

00:04:23.680 Yeah, I think it is.

00:04:24.960 Either we had a situation where there were five votes for that position, and they're trying to intimidate someone to back off the opinion, because as you say, things were in flux until the time it's issued.

00:04:36.920 Or they were trying to determine whether they could muster five votes, and they're trying to—that's how I read the situation.

00:04:44.520 The report by Politico suggests the conservatives have a majority and that Roberts, Chief Justice Roberts, may not be in it.

00:04:52.120 He may—it doesn't sound like right now, or at least at the time that they did the report, I mean, last night, he was a dissenter, but that he might be preparing some sort of a concurrence on other grounds.

00:05:01.320 But that they had the five conservatives ready to vote to strike down Roe versus Wade, that we don't know, but that was their reporting.

00:05:08.880 And so there is a question.

00:05:10.120 So six conservatives seeming to favor some sort of overturning of Roe, or in Roberts' case, something more limited, and the liberals objecting, wanting to uphold Roe.

00:05:19.560 So the details—I mean, this—it had to be a law clerk.

00:05:22.820 It had to be, right?

00:05:23.600 Unless you believe a U.S. Supreme Court justice, him or herself, would have leaked this thing.

00:05:27.540 Right, which I don't believe.

00:05:29.080 I suspect it was a law clerk.

00:05:31.180 And so the sort of table bingo last night was, well, would it have been one from one of the conservative justices trying to shore up a wobbly moderate, you know, keep the pressure on to stay on the majority?

00:05:42.480 Or would it have been, in your opinion—and I realize this is speculation—a liberal jurist's law clerk trying to generate enough public backlash that the wobbler would go over to the lefty side?

00:05:55.980 The second scenario is the only thing that makes sense to me.

00:05:59.140 Why?

00:06:00.120 Because I don't think a conservative clerk would have put this out with the idea that this would somehow shore up a wobbly judge.

00:06:07.680 This is going to be a controversial decision if it came out.

00:06:10.440 Mm-hmm.

00:06:10.940 So better to keep it quiet, shore the person up internally, and then let the chips fall where they may when it's too late to reverse it, your position.

00:06:20.060 Right.

00:06:20.780 So what about this Marshall investigation?

00:06:23.080 I mean, having covered the high court for a few years, I can say the Supreme Court Marshall investigating you isn't the sentence that strikes fear in the hearts of men and women.

00:06:32.400 Now, the FBI, because CBS is reporting that there may be an FBI investigation into who leaked this, that's a different story.

00:06:39.580 That's more your purview.

00:06:41.080 So what do you think happens from here?

00:06:42.920 Who actually will take the helm?

00:06:44.020 Well, you know, I think that the chief would have had the option, and perhaps he still will, to appoint a counsel, a special counsel, not in the classical criminal sense.

00:06:57.160 But the court can appoint a counsel, and he could bring in a former U.S. attorney or someone with a criminal law background.

00:07:04.060 And I'm sure he would get the support he needed from the FBI or any other law enforcement agency.

00:07:11.980 What's your confidence that they can get to the bottom of who leaked it?

00:07:16.280 I think they may need a grand jury to do that, which would mean a criminal case.

00:07:20.460 Wow. Why?

00:07:22.640 To compel the truth.

00:07:24.080 Yeah. Because people will lie to the Marshall and maybe not to a prosecutor?

00:07:28.940 Perhaps.

00:07:29.940 Well, that's the thing.

00:07:30.800 And people are talking about it online, though.

00:07:32.880 So is this a crime?

00:07:34.300 To me, it's clearly unethical.

00:07:36.280 And if it was a lawyer, they should be disbarred immediately.

00:07:39.080 But what crime could this possibly be?

00:07:41.580 Well, it could be obstructing the administration of justice, the due process of justice.

00:07:47.860 That's a stretch, though, no?

00:07:50.120 Well, no.

00:07:51.840 Your obstruction means you're attempting to influence through some kind of wrongdoing.

00:07:58.240 And I don't think it's a stretch.

00:08:01.760 Hmm. So do you think they should?

00:08:03.600 Do you think, I mean, like if you were running the DOJ right now, would you be pushing for it?

00:08:07.040 I want to go back and parse the statute and make sure it was, you know, clearly covered by it.

00:08:11.980 But if it was, I think that's the way to go.

00:08:15.540 What do you make, as you've been in and out of government many times in your career, as your book makes clear,

00:08:19.380 what do you make that this was leaked to the national security reporter at Politico?

00:08:26.160 It's not the high court, you know, the reporter.

00:08:30.140 I don't know what to make of that.

00:08:32.540 Obviously, whoever was leaking it is trying to cover their tracks.

00:08:35.360 And maybe there was something about that channel that made them feel more secure.

00:08:39.720 I don't know.

00:08:40.180 Hmm. I don't know either.

00:08:41.820 I wish I had the tea leaves better.

00:08:43.720 But I really feel there's a guy named Phil Houston.

00:08:46.540 He used to run the CIA's.

00:08:48.180 Maybe he was there when you were there.

00:08:50.260 Deception detection program.

00:08:51.940 He came up with it and then ran it for 25 years.

00:08:54.280 That's what they need.

00:08:55.220 They need Phil Houston, who's literally a human lie detector, to come out there.

00:08:58.580 He wrote a book called Spy the Lie.

00:09:00.280 And he will get to the bottom of it, even if there's not criminal prosecution power.

00:09:04.900 Right. I think they should spare no effort to get to the bottom of what happened.

00:09:08.060 Why? I mean, explain for the audience why it's so catastrophic what this person has done.

00:09:12.560 Well, because once you expose the court to this kind of popular pressure and sort of potential mob psychology,

00:09:22.960 it'll divert them from reaching a principal decision based on the merits.

00:09:28.700 We go to a lot of trouble in our system to insulate the court so that they can do what they think is just under the law

00:09:36.780 and, you know, this means that we're going to have sort of this street justice played out in front of the Supreme Court

00:09:44.940 when they're considering controversial cases.

00:09:48.240 Can we talk about the difference?

00:09:49.220 Because one of my reporter friends texted me last night.

00:09:51.820 She could see I was mad on Twitter about the leak.

00:09:54.560 And she said, I'm curious as a reporter why you'd be against this.

00:09:57.560 You know, are your journalism, you know, credentials weighing against your legal credentials?

00:10:03.640 And I said to steal a phrase, America first, you know.

00:10:07.720 Right. I mean, I hope that there's still reporters who would not like if a national security secret that exposed us to danger was leaked.

00:10:18.960 You know, they might take advantage of it, but they would still, I think, feel that that was wrong.

00:10:25.580 And because society as a whole was injured by it.

00:10:28.500 And the same is true here.

00:10:30.200 This hurts us in a different kind of way, but it's very profound.

00:10:33.940 Well, and even without, I mean, like you take somebody like Snowden, he's got reasons.

00:10:38.260 You can disagree with his reasons, but he had reasons for what he did.

00:10:41.080 You know, he thought that the government was doing something unethical, illegal, and it needed to be exposed.

00:10:45.980 That's not even arguably the case here.

00:10:47.460 There's no even alleged wrongdoing by anybody.

00:10:50.560 This isn't a whistleblower.

00:10:52.460 This is somebody who clearly leaked a confidential document that they took an oath not to leak through their attorney bar certification.

00:11:02.180 And when you go to work at the Supreme Court, you get the lecture from the chief justice.

00:11:05.720 And they did it for political reasons.

00:11:07.560 So I don't like the public interest in disclosing this now in advance is not the same as with something like the Pentagon Papers.

00:11:17.660 Well, I think it seems to, I mean, we're all speculating, but I think the most likely scenario is they leaked it for the purpose of politicizing the decision-making process, of bringing extraneous pressure to bear on a justice or some justices.

00:11:34.240 Hmm. It's shocking.

00:11:35.660 I mean, I was saying, we've never seen, I'm sure, let's say it was a liberal jurist, or not jurist, but law clerk.

00:11:43.020 You don't think somebody might have considered trying to turn the tide some way on Lawrence v. Texas, on Griswold v. Connecticut, on Obergefell, the gay marriage case, all these cases that sort of are in line with privacy rights and so on deriving from Roe.

00:11:57.060 So, sure, they would have. I mean, on Roe itself, you know, who knows how the law clerks working for the other justices felt. Probably not so happy.

00:12:05.380 Right.

00:12:05.820 Right?

00:12:06.140 Absolutely.

00:12:06.760 But they never did this. This is a breach beyond. It's about somebody making it about themselves and their own views.

00:12:11.940 Absolutely. You know, one of the points I've made about January 6th is that whether or not the president incited it or was aware there'd be violence, the thing I objected to was sicking a political demonstration, including some rowdy people who looked like they were ready for some violence, and putting them outside the Capitol to put pressure on the Senate and the president of the Senate, the vice president, to reach a certain decision.

00:12:40.560 And while people are free to do that, for one branch of government to try to influence another by using that extraneous method was wrong.

00:12:50.500 No violence is involved here, but they're doing violence to the process, and they are trying to rally political forces to put pressure on the court. And for the same basic reason, it's wrong.

00:13:01.980 Does the Supreme Court need to come out with its decision ASAP now?

00:13:05.200 I think they should just go ahead with their normal process and not let this derail them.

00:13:11.420 Do you worry at all about a threat to them now?

00:13:14.520 You know, I mean...

00:13:15.460 Yeah, that crossed my mind that I think they have to buttress their security at this point.

00:13:22.060 Definitely.

00:13:22.640 Yet another thing the leaker likely didn't take into account, that he or she was endangering the lives of the nine justices, the conservatives and the liberals, in being so reckless.

00:13:31.600 They would have prepared for this had they known, you know, it was coming out in June, they would bulk up.

00:13:36.340 Now it catches them by surprise.

00:13:38.480 Okay, a couple things about the decision itself, because now we've had the chief justice acknowledge it's authentic.

00:13:43.700 It's not final.

00:13:44.680 Right.

00:13:44.900 But let's presume that they don't lose one of those five votes between now and the time they issue it.

00:13:51.240 And indeed, they are going to overrule Roe and Casey, which affirmed Roe for the most part in the early 90s.

00:13:58.740 To me, it's a stunning decision.

00:14:00.460 I have to say, I couldn't believe, like, people who have worked for 50 years to read these words, you know, the joy they must feel at having read them.

00:14:10.620 And people who have worked for 50 years to stop these words from appearing in a U.S. Supreme Court opinion, same.

00:14:16.200 He writes, this is, again, written by Alito as for the majority.

00:14:21.020 We do not pretend to know how our political system or society will respond to today's decision overruling Roe and Casey.

00:14:27.780 And even if we could foresee what will happen, we would have no authority to let that knowledge influence our decision.

00:14:34.040 We can only do our job, which is to interpret the law, apply longstanding principles of stare decisis, meaning respect for precedent, and decide this case accordingly.

00:14:42.800 We therefore hold that the Constitution does not confer a right to abortion.

00:14:47.000 Roe and Casey must be overruled, and the authority to regulate abortion must be returned to the people and their elected representatives.

00:14:56.980 What do you feel when you hear that?

00:14:58.880 Well, I agree with that position.

00:15:01.960 And, you know, when I was up being, from my hearings, the first time I was Attorney General almost 30 years ago.

00:15:10.180 For H.W. Bush.

00:15:11.200 Right, for H.W. Bush.

00:15:12.640 I was asked about it, and I said I thought the case was wrong, Roe v. Wade was wrongly decided, but I would enforce it until it was overruled.

00:15:22.200 And then, of course, every year we went back up to the Supreme Court trying to get it overruled.

00:15:27.060 So I'm one of those that has been looking forward to the overruling of Roe v. Wade.

00:15:32.000 The thing is, the court points out in this opinion, this draft opinion, that even abortion supporters have found it difficult to defend Roe's reasoning.

00:15:41.460 It was an abomination of a legal decision.

00:15:45.100 Even if you are pro-choice, pro-abortion rights, it's very hard to defend this piece as a piece of legal jurisprudence.

00:15:54.280 They point out one prominent constitutional scholar who supports abortion rights wrote that Roe was not constitutional law at all and gave almost no sense of an obligation to try to be.

00:16:06.900 That's the thing that people don't know.

00:16:08.240 They just think Roe v. Wade had been almost 50 years.

00:16:10.520 Like, what do you mean?

00:16:11.500 You know, with respect for precedent, this was the law.

00:16:13.720 It was a joke of an opinion when it was written and when it was partially affirmed.

00:16:18.320 And nothing about that has changed.

00:16:19.800 Right, and that's why it's created so many problems and led to such political turmoil in our country because it was a strong-arm opinion whereby a court was legislating.

00:16:31.060 And, you know, the whole trimester system and so forth had no basis.

00:16:34.820 They made it up.

00:16:35.620 It was made up.

00:16:36.500 And I felt for a long time that one of the problems we have in our country is that we've done away with the glory of the federal system and its function as a safety valve, a release to let pressure out of the system.

00:16:53.060 If we make these decisions in the states where people have maximum influence over their own state, where states have different approaches, different cultures, different communities, then I think we're going to see less turmoil over time.

00:17:10.300 But when we have one size fits all, Armageddon fights, one decision binding on every state, every person, and there's going to be a big fight in Washington, that's what's creating a lot of the rancor in our system today.

00:17:24.820 This is what the court said in agreement with your point.

00:17:27.900 Roe represented the exercise of raw judicial power and sparked a national controversy that has embittered our political culture for a half century.

00:17:37.180 Twenty-six states asked the court to overrule Roe and Casey and let states regulate the matter.

00:17:43.920 And they pointed out that for the first 185 years after the adoption of the Constitution, each state was permitted to address this issue in accordance with the views of its populace.

00:17:52.180 And then in 1973, the court suddenly said there's a constitutional right to abortion, even though the Constitution makes no mention of abortion.

00:18:02.040 So it came at a left field as a legal matter.

00:18:07.260 That's right.

00:18:08.980 I think that now people are going to be afraid because if you turn on mainstream media today, they're telling you that abortion is soon going to be illegal in all 50 states. 0.94

00:18:18.300 Yeah, that's ridiculous.

00:18:19.440 Can you explain why that's not true? 0.73

00:18:20.800 Well, states take very different approaches today.

00:18:24.740 That opinion, if it were to be the final opinion, isn't saying that you have to prohibit abortion.

00:18:31.440 It's saying this is a matter for the states to decide.

00:18:34.600 And a very high proportion of our states are going to permit abortions.

00:18:40.660 There may be reasonable regulation in time periods, but it's not going to prohibit it nationwide.

00:18:47.140 And what we hear is, well, somebody in Idaho is going to have to go to California to get an abortion. 0.99

00:18:53.260 Well, let's think about that for a minute.

00:18:56.500 That's what we get in living in a federal republic where states are sovereign and can set the rules for the people of their state.

00:19:04.820 Mm-hmm.

00:19:05.300 And if people don't like the rules in Idaho, they don't necessarily have to move, but they might have to go to California to get an abortion. 0.97

00:19:14.520 That's the price we pay for federalism, and it's well worth the price.

00:19:18.180 The alternative, which is to say the law has to be exactly the same throughout the country, as I say, that creates a pressure cooker, and that's one of the problems we have today.

00:19:31.300 Well, that's why you're having talk of let's get rid of the filibuster so that we have no minority rights in the Senate at all. 1.00

00:19:39.620 It's already gone when it comes to justices and judges in the federal courts.

00:19:43.680 And now they're saying let's get rid of it, the Democrats, all together so that we can ram through a national federal law that protects abortion in all 50 states.

00:19:53.460 I mean, that would be extraordinary.

00:19:56.000 Right.

00:19:56.220 I mean, you describe it.

00:19:58.680 How radical is that?

00:20:00.000 Well, it may not even be constitutional because I'm not sure exactly what power the federal government has to do that.

00:20:06.180 Once you rule that it's not a fundamental constitutionally protected right, I'm not sure where the federal government gets that power.

00:20:14.860 Good point.

00:20:17.160 There's another – this is getting less traction, but I've seen it from some prominent liberal pundits.

00:20:23.380 There's talk of court packing again.

00:20:25.260 Sure.

00:20:25.520 Get the court packed before June even.

00:20:28.180 I mean, that's not even a possibility, right?

00:20:30.380 Right.

00:20:30.520 Like there's no way they can do that.

00:20:31.720 Right.

00:20:32.220 You know, to me it's very ironic that the Democrats keep on talking about the destruction of democracy, okay?

00:20:40.080 This is all about democracy.

00:20:41.760 It's about letting the people make the decision.

00:20:45.260 As you know, the Constitution envisions narrow powers for the federal government.

00:20:49.640 And otherwise, it's left to the people and to the states.

00:20:52.740 And this idea that, you know, we should take it away from the people and have one size fits all rule from Washington is, in my mind, anti-democratic.

00:21:06.020 It's not what the founders envisioned.

00:21:07.460 Right.

00:21:07.800 Sure.

00:21:08.120 They didn't want some king, some central authority who would issue all the rules.

00:21:11.740 Right.

00:21:11.960 And we've been living just fine like that.

00:21:14.580 I mean, listen, there's a reason Mississippi is very different from California.

00:21:17.860 Right.

00:21:18.060 And you can make choices accordingly.

00:21:19.860 We've seen that over the past couple of years with COVID.

00:21:21.840 Right.

00:21:22.040 People, it dawned on them, I don't really like the way my state is run and these policies.

00:21:25.960 I'm going to go someplace that's more free, like Florida.

00:21:28.320 Right.

00:21:28.820 Absolutely.

00:21:30.220 And it's a charter for freedom.

00:21:32.000 People can find their niche in this country.

00:21:35.340 Communities can take shape.

00:21:37.240 People with common values tend to gravitate to the same place and so forth.

00:21:43.860 And so you have a real feeling of community.

00:21:46.560 We're a composite country.

00:21:49.280 What's wrong with diversity in this country?

00:21:51.200 You know, the left talks about diversity, but they're not for diversity.

00:21:54.880 They're for everyone knuckling under and following what they want to do.

00:21:58.860 Exactly.

00:21:59.500 It's only surface level diversity.

00:22:01.580 Your skin color, your gender, what have you.

00:22:05.640 No ideological.

00:22:06.960 I remember sitting at the Supreme Court and hearing Justice Scalia when he was still alive

00:22:10.540 and on the bench, say, on an issue around abortion.

00:22:14.540 If you want abortion to be a federal right or to be in the Constitution, good on you. 0.93

00:22:20.620 Go out there and get a constitutional amendment passed.

00:22:24.380 Right.

00:22:24.520 That's what you do when you want to change the Constitution.

00:22:27.240 You don't read rights into it that aren't there.

00:22:30.680 And it's almost like now I'm having the feeling of, I'm sorry, I feel bad that the Supreme Court

00:22:36.720 for some 50 years has lied to the American people saying that there was something written

00:22:41.560 in this document that wasn't in there.

00:22:44.260 Now the ship is being righted and people feel betrayed, which I understand.

00:22:48.800 I understand because we've seen justice after justice do at the Supreme Court confirmation

00:22:51.860 hearings being like, I'll have respect for precedent, stare decisis.

00:22:55.380 No one will ever make a prediction on what they do on Roe versus Wade.

00:22:58.640 And now the answer is, yes, they do respect precedent.

00:23:02.160 That's why we don't get these decisions every day.

00:23:04.660 But bad precedent gets overruled.

00:23:07.460 And that's not unprecedented at the U.S. Supreme Court.

00:23:11.220 Right.

00:23:12.220 That's absolutely right.

00:23:13.540 And we saw bad racist decisions from the past be overruled.

00:23:20.020 So as you say, the law around when you overrule a bad precedent is well-developed.

00:23:26.460 And the draft opinion by Justice Alito goes through all the standards, you know.

00:23:32.540 Yeah.

00:23:33.040 We'd still have Plessy versus Ferguson, separate but equals fine.

00:23:38.000 Lots of bad decisions that the court has come to revisit, like when they did with Brown

00:23:43.300 versus Board of Education.

00:23:44.880 They don't always respect precedent.

00:23:46.840 Sometimes they say, mm-mm, that precedent is bad and it needs to go.

00:23:50.420 So just one thought for the audience.

00:23:54.200 They say as follows.

00:23:56.080 There are three groups of people in this country.

00:23:58.580 One that believes a human person comes into being at conception and abortion ends an innocent 0.98

00:24:03.440 life.

00:24:04.540 One that believes any regulation of abortion invades a woman's right to control her own

00:24:08.020 body and prevents her from achieving full equality. 0.99

00:24:10.860 And the third is the group that believes abortion should be allowed under some but not all circumstances.

00:24:16.420 And there's a variety of views on the particular restrictions that should be imposed.

00:24:20.240 Number three is the vast majority of the world.

00:24:23.560 Like they point out that only six other countries besides the United States allows abortion on demand past 20 weeks.

00:24:34.680 We, the United States, have been in an outlier position for a long time on this.

00:24:39.520 Very small group that's in group number two.

00:24:42.200 So you should have the right to decide all the way through the ninth month of pregnancy.

00:24:46.940 Right.

00:24:47.180 So there's another element of this, which is personally, I believe life does begin at conception.

00:24:52.460 So that if I had my way instead of what the Constitution says, I'd say abortion should be prohibited.

00:25:01.540 And maybe that, and I would be fighting to get that, you know, interpreted into the Constitution, that that was a person.

00:25:08.060 Right?

00:25:08.600 And some Republicans are.

00:25:10.220 Maybe some, yeah.

00:25:10.920 Or they want a constitutional amendment to do it.

00:25:13.980 Yeah.

00:25:14.600 But my feeling is to be honest about the Constitution.

00:25:18.780 That's not what the Constitution did.

00:25:21.020 The Constitution, in my view, left it up to the states.

00:25:25.120 And so I'm not trying to get my personal beliefs, you know, reflected in the Constitution.

00:25:34.280 I'm willing to live with the Constitution.

00:25:35.940 Yeah, you don't want Roe to go the other way, a bad decision that affirms your worldview by writing stuff in the Constitution.

00:25:42.060 I'm not going to impose my worldview on the Constitution.

00:25:45.500 And I think the idea that anything goes abortion, you know, without any restriction is them imposing an extreme, their own extreme views on the Constitution.

00:25:55.480 And I think this opinion is right.

00:25:58.000 Leave it up to the states.

00:25:59.760 Yeah.

00:26:00.060 And that's what Scalia said.

00:26:01.400 He said, you want to go, you get that constitutional amendment.

00:26:04.300 Don't leave it up to nine men and women in robes.

00:26:06.820 Right.

00:26:06.960 It's not our purview.

00:26:08.600 Right.

00:26:08.740 Last question on this.

00:26:10.660 We'll squeeze in a break and then we'll talk about you.

00:26:13.940 Many out there, forgive me for saying Jeffrey Toobin to you, many out there like Toobin saying this is the beginning of the end for, you know, the right to so-called right to privacy and any jurisprudence that's connected to it.

00:26:28.780 Um, from the right to contraception to the right to gay marriage, uh, which had due process concerns as well and so on.

00:26:36.480 And there are a lot of people on the left saying that.

00:26:38.960 Now, this is what the court actually said.

00:26:40.740 And I'm quoting here again in a draft opinion that could still change.

00:26:45.000 We emphasize that our decision concerns the right to abortion and no other right.

00:26:50.240 Nothing in this opinion should be understood to cast doubt on precedents that do not concern abortion.

00:26:56.560 But I've seen even some on the right say, this is our window, our window to get rid of something like a Bergefell, the gay marriage opinion, or some of these other cases that have the original root in this so-called right to privacy of Roe and so on.

00:27:12.280 So how do you see that fight going?

00:27:15.160 I don't think it's going to happen.

00:27:16.220 I don't think there's going to be an erosion of, of those cases.

00:27:19.820 Uh, now personally, as an original matter, I would have also left those issues up to the states.

00:27:26.460 But once the, once it was decided by the Supreme Court, I think there's tremendous, uh, uh, dependence and reliance on those decisions.

00:27:35.780 Well, there was on Roe too.

00:27:36.820 No, there, there isn't because, you know, abortion is something that, uh, when you, when you get married, you have property things that last for a long time and you have a relationship that lasts for a long time and you have children and so forth and so on indefinitely into the future.

00:27:57.980 Abortion is something that. 1.00

00:27:59.300 That's what the court found, you're, that's exactly what the court found, what you're saying, that it's, it's temporary, uh, if you will, pregnancy, it's a temporary condition.

00:28:06.680 It's a temporary condition that will, you know, uh, be resolved or not.

00:28:11.980 And, and so there's no reliance, uh, on, on, uh, Roe v. Wade in the same sense that there's reliance on, um, you know, the gay marriage case.

00:28:22.760 None that couldn't be adjusted based on state legislation and so on.

00:28:26.160 That's what seems to be what the court is saying.

00:28:27.520 Right. So I don't, I don't see, I don't see that happening because of the reliance of people.

00:28:31.940 And I think people understand that.

00:28:33.800 That's fascinating. What, what a day, right?

00:28:35.920 So glad to have you here on this day.

00:28:37.420 All right. So I was almost disappointed that, uh, Bill Barr was coming in today and that this news broke because there's so much that I want to talk to him about.

00:28:46.420 Uh, we're going to dig into his book next one damn thing after another. 0.83

00:28:49.640 And it certainly is right. 0.97

00:28:51.580 Well said, we'll be right back with more, the former attorney general.

00:28:57.520 Welcome back to the Megan Kelly show, but just chatting here with the former attorney general, Bill Barr, author of the new book, one damn thing after another, which is a great description of what it's like to be attorney general.

00:29:10.940 And, uh, that's explained early in the book. It's a great, great explanation. It's kind of how the news business is too.

00:29:17.560 We were just chatting about how it's really, it says something about the ethical code of this person, whoever leaked this, because you were a law clerk back in the day.

00:29:24.020 You're obviously a lawyer. It does, right? It's your own personal moral code.

00:29:28.480 Right. Well, it's that, uh, the ends justify the means. Anything you do is okay because you want to take the country to a better, your view of, of a better future. So.

00:29:40.520 Well, that's as good a segue as I could ask for into the whole Trump election stuff. So let's get that out of the way.

00:29:45.840 I think the reason most Republicans, the polls show most Republicans think that the election was stolen from him. Now, what does that mean? Because I know you've said, you know, rigged, unfair, we can go there, but like actual stealing of votes. No.

00:30:02.200 Right.

00:30:02.420 And I, that's where I fall too. Um, because I didn't see any proof of it. I was open-minded like, Hey, let's see, you know? But the reason I think most Republicans believe it was stolen is what we're talking about. That the Democrats clearly believe ends justify the means. He's too big a threat. This had to be stopped. He had to be stopped. And that the stakes were just too big to play by the old rules.

00:30:25.560 Right. So people are confusing three different things. One are, uh, the rules that are put into effect at the last minute before the election, which are not in themselves illegal. Uh, COVID stuff, mail-in ballots. Right. Longer voting times. Right. Yeah. Uh, you have to live with that or you challenge it in court and get it thrown out. If, if you feel that the state didn't have the power to do that.

00:30:49.040 The second thing are process, uh, violations. That is the violation of rules that are meant to prevent fraud. The big one there is harvesting. And as I said in my book, I think they were cutting corners on harvesting.

00:31:03.780 And that's where I go around and I pick up all the old ladies ballots for them. I'll take it in and I'll deliver it. Don't you worry, sweetheart. Right. And then God knows what I do with it before I actually drop it off.

00:31:14.380 Right. Harvesting can, can be the whole gamut from actually taking a sealed ballot and saying, I'll deliver it for you and going around to standing at someone's door and say, you fill out your ballot. You know, you got to vote, fill out your ballot, help them fill out the ballot, take it. And then there can be more fraud involved where you put it on yourself.

00:31:32.640 But if it's just a process violate, I don't mean to minimize it because I think that's a violation of law and people should be prosecuted for that.

00:31:40.060 But what, what a lot of people don't understand is that you're not going to be able to turn around an election based on that because you don't know once the ballots are opened and counted and mixed all together, you can't go back and reconstruct, you know, which of these was harvested by Joe Blow and which involved undue, undue pressure and so forth.

00:32:04.900 And furthermore, as, as I think you would see, most courts are not going to throw out a valid vote because it was harvested.

00:32:13.440 The question will be, was this a qualified voter and should we really ignore their vote just because somebody collected and delivered it?

00:32:23.260 So, and then the third category is where unqualified votes are counted or qualified votes are suppressed. That's fraud.

00:32:32.960 Yeah, that's the bad. That's where the counts, the counts are affected. And, you know, when they came out of the box on election night, the president did saying there's massive, you know, major fraud underway.

00:32:44.840 And all the stuff that Giuliani and the others were talking about in the first few weeks was, was fraud, actual fraud, like the machines or truckloads of illicit ballots or ballots taken from under tables.

00:33:00.840 All of that was nonsense. And, and, and, and all these figures that were thrown out about how, you know, Philadelphia, uh, had more votes than registered voters, which the president said just last January, this past January, nonsense, nonsense, you know, the turnout in, in, in, in Philadelphia was actually lower than the state average turnout.

00:33:22.380 So Detroit was another one where he did better against Biden than he did against Hillary.

00:33:29.100 Yeah. So the big picture in the election was the cities pretty much did what they always do. There was no big change in the cities. There wasn't been, you know, some big influx of, of votes, uh, that was beyond what's happened in the past.

00:33:42.340 And in fact, Trump ran a little bit better in many of the cities, the rural areas increase their vote for Trump, but the thing that changed were the suburbs and there Trump lost ground, either significant ground in, in, in, in, in suburbs that usually went Democrat, but still had significant Republicans.

00:34:03.420 But even in some suburbs and experts that he won in the past, his margin went down. And this is what he was told for the whole of 2020.

00:34:12.880 Yes. Like after the first presidential debate, you write about this in the book saying you were very displeased because you really felt the base is there. We don't need to shore up the base. We need to get the suburban voters who are turned off by your affect, some of your personality characteristics. So let's try to be a little bit more presidential and shore them up.

00:34:33.000 And I went in, in April. So it's before the debates. I went in, in April and I told them that I had a one-on-one with them. And I said, look, I think you're going to lose the election and it's not COVID COVID. COVID, you know, you can survive COVID, but, uh, everybody sees this, which is we've lost ground in the suburbs and we got to get that back. And when you look at the vote, that's where he lost it.

00:34:57.080 So all these people are out there talking about, you know, uh, fraud and how the justice department could have turned it around and so forth. First, it's not true. Uh, we could not have turned it around based on the evidence at that point. Uh, but they should go and look at where the votes actually came from.

00:35:15.420 One thing I like pointing out is like in, in, um, in Arizona, he ran 75,000 votes behind the Republican ticket. That is the, the Congress people who were running the state assembly people. Same in Wisconsin, roughly the same in Pennsylvania. Let's take Pennsylvania where he ran 60,000 votes behind the Republican ticket. Compare that to what Reagan did.

00:35:39.000 And when he was running for reelection in 84, he ran 470,000 votes ahead of the Republican ticket in Pennsylvania, half a million ahead. Those were Democrats. Those were the Reagan Democrats. You, you can't win a close election like this as the Republican candidate. If you're running behind the average Republican ticket.

00:36:02.000 In a way, it's such a shame to, for Trump because you, you point this out in the book. He was, he was, what's the word? They were, they were kneecapping him from day one in a way that we had never seen before. He really was never given the chance to, to just govern, you know, to just govern.

00:36:23.300 It was an outrage what happened to him and, and, and, you know, that watching it and being very suspicious of this Russiagate thing. That's one of the reasons I felt he wasn't getting his due as president. And I was willing to come in and, and, and do my best to, you know, to have him get what he deserved as president. And so he was sinned against, but, uh, he also, as I think most people believe, including his supporters, is his own worst enemy.

00:36:50.580 Yeah. He's sinned against himself. Yeah. But, you know, you look at the cast of characters around him and I used to be a Comey fan, a believer. I know you had a personal friendship with Robert Mueller. That's changed. And I, and you're very frank in the book about what you make of those guys. Comey, um, my word was sanctimonious. You had a different word for him. What was it? I don't remember.

00:37:10.620 He was a megalomaniac.

00:37:12.440 Megalomaniac. Yes. So how did that happen? Did he grow into that or was he just like that from the beginning? 0.69

00:37:17.560 Well, uh, you know, you always, lawyers, as you know, tend to think highly of themselves and he always had a, you know, a healthy, uh, uh, amount of that. But I think he became more arrogant as time went by.

00:37:31.580 You could tell, like when you went to a room with him, had a conversation. Why? What was he like?

00:37:35.560 Well, his holier than now attitude, you know, I think what he did in the Bush administration with the hospitalization of Gonzalez and acting like there was some, you know, big conspiracy afoot.

00:37:47.280 That opened a lot of people's eyes to him.

00:37:50.100 And what about Bob Mueller? He was your friend. He kind of stabbed you in the back. He wrote this long meandering report. You condensed it down to two pages, which the left freaked out about saying you misrepresented it. You said, I didn't, I wasn't going to let him get away with this obstruction of justice stuff, which was not the right focus. And I boiled it down for you, which is there was no collusion. That was the headline. That's what he was told to do.

00:38:10.500 He got mad. He issued a little statement of his own about how you didn't get it right. So I know you said to NBC, you're not sure if you guys are still friends, but what, how do you see Bob Mueller now? Because I think a lot of people were surprised by how off he seemed when he testified and whether he's the guy we thought he was.

00:38:27.400 Well, you know, I think I'd leave it at that, which is, you know, I don't think he was, you know, what you saw was not the Bob Mueller that I was used to working with. And, and I don't know how much of it was that change versus ideological or what have you.

00:38:47.040 But was he always a partisan guy?

00:38:49.800 Not particularly, although I do think that he had disdain for Trump.

00:38:55.540 But I think the fact, you know, I think the fact that he allowed, well, look, Rod, it was terribly unfair to Rod Rosenstein. Rod Rosenstein picked Mueller to assure the country that this was going to be done without any partisanship. And then Mueller turns around and brings in very partisan Democrats, a whole crew of them.

00:39:15.560 And you told him not to do that.

00:39:16.940 Well, no, I mean, I commented on it at the time, but I wasn't in charge.

00:39:21.860 Yeah, right, right. But you were saying, I want to reevaluate.

00:39:24.560 So one of the things that Trump was upset about was the Durham investigation, which you got started, which is good. We need to know why they invented this fake claim of Russia gang collusion, all that. And Durham, sure enough, seems to be a straight shooter getting to the bottom of it. But he was mad it didn't go faster.

00:39:39.580 And I think there's something where he was mad that after that first presidential debate where it came up about Hunter, maybe you can refresh my memory that you didn't go back to him and say, you are right. There is an investigate.

00:39:51.240 You knew that there was a there was an investigation into Hunter at that time in the U.S. attorney's office in Delaware, but you couldn't reveal it.

00:39:57.640 Yeah. So I think, you know, one of the reasons our relationship sort of soured during 2020 was he and he did, by the way, you know, didn't come in and tell me what to do in these cases.

00:40:09.760 He was good in that respect. He sort of asked me generally, you know, are things going OK? And I'd say yes. And then he'd, you know, try to figure out what was going on. But he would never ask or he'd never tell me to do anything. But his public comments made it clear that he wanted scalps and he wanted them before the election.

00:40:27.720 I mean, you can't blame him.

00:40:28.960 I don't blame him. I don't blame him for that desire. But the but the attorney general has to run a criminal justice system that doesn't take account of politics. 0.80

00:40:37.620 That's what H.W. told you. Right. He had a different approach. Right. And if you don't have the evidence at that point, you don't indict someone simply because it's politically beneficial.

00:40:48.200 But I am annoyed when I hear a lot of my side, the Republican side, you know, sort of say, you know, why isn't Durham, you know, doing more?

00:40:57.620 And I said, OK, let me explain the time frame to you. He got up and running in the summer of 2019.

00:41:08.720 But we didn't have the information about the FBI's activity from the IG until December of 2000.

00:41:17.120 Why not?

00:41:17.440 He didn't issue the report and he wouldn't share it with Durham. So Durham's team did not have all the FBI stuff.

00:41:25.900 So he was looking at other things while waiting for that report.

00:41:30.400 Do you think he didn't share that because he didn't want the thing to go?

00:41:32.980 No, I think that's his standard practice. And that's the way he wanted to handle it.

00:41:37.960 But so he so Durham was delayed in getting into the to the meat of the of the matter until the end of 2019.

00:41:47.720 And then what happened three months later? All the grand jury shut down because of covid.

00:41:53.220 Now, you know that I'm not saying he had a grand jury.

00:41:57.140 What I'm saying is that once people know that you cannot convene a grand jury and issue a subpoena to them,

00:42:04.760 they're not going to voluntarily cooperate. So you say, will you come in and talk to us?

00:42:09.620 We want some questions to ask you. They'll say no.

00:42:12.880 Yeah. Well, I got to get my nails done. I got to get my hair done.

00:42:15.120 I'm worried about covid. I'm taking care of my mother.

00:42:18.060 Safety first.

00:42:18.700 Yeah. Safety first. And they know you can't say you got to be.

00:42:23.260 You got to be here.

00:42:24.580 Now, one. Speaking of covid and.

00:42:26.640 But that went on. That went on until October before the election.

00:42:30.640 Now we're getting results. And, you know, they're not big indictments.

00:42:33.540 I mean, you know, it's not like the big mother load, like you orchestrated the whole thing.

00:42:37.140 But we're getting the story piecemeal together.

00:42:39.160 And eventually, I believe, and I think we'll get the story.

00:42:42.200 We're going to get the full story from chapter.

00:42:43.800 Yeah. All right. Speaking of covid, Anthony Fauci,

00:42:46.700 your piece of advice in the book is do not get between him and the cameras.

00:42:52.160 Right.

00:42:52.900 I mean, Ozzie, have you ever seen such an egotistical bureaucrat?

00:42:56.960 No.

00:42:57.740 Right.

00:42:58.320 Right.

00:42:58.660 And but but my my concern and it was a concern of a lot of people at the White House

00:43:03.440 was that he was empowering Fauci by putting him out there.

00:43:07.660 And he created this monster, if I can use that metaphor.

00:43:11.760 But so it was his own creation because he kept on putting him out there.

00:43:19.140 Why do you do that? It's not like Trump.

00:43:20.460 Well, I from my observation, Trump is very decisive on certain red meat issues that he 1.00

00:43:28.000 has a good feel for, like crime, immigration, stuff like the drug war.

00:43:33.240 But on things that are confusing and not too clear, such as covid.

00:43:37.940 Yeah.

00:43:38.580 He's not that decisive.

00:43:40.380 And his style is to hang back and snipe at people instead of actually make decisions.

00:43:45.540 And so I contrast what he did, how he handled covid with how DeSantis handled it.

00:43:51.380 DeSantis went out and actually hired a health advisor.

00:43:56.020 Who seems to be pretty reasonable.

00:43:58.220 He's great.

00:43:58.520 He's got a show.

00:43:59.120 Yeah.

00:44:00.080 And then he made the hard decisions and stuck with him, even though he was getting battered.

00:44:06.040 Trump just followed along with, you know, the bureaucrats and sniped at them.

00:44:12.140 And he was all over the lot.

00:44:13.240 I mean, his fight with Kemp, his attack on Governor Kemp was that Kemp wanted to open

00:44:19.240 up too quickly.

00:44:20.640 Right.

00:44:21.500 That's how it got started.

00:44:23.240 I forgot about that.

00:44:24.100 Yeah.

00:44:24.280 Before the whole election.

00:44:25.100 So he's been all he was all sort of all over the lot.

00:44:27.660 And I think that that was what, you know, part partly hurt him on covid.

00:44:31.360 But I thought he could survive covid.

00:44:33.040 One great thing Trump did in terms of decisiveness was Kavanaugh and some of these other Supreme

00:44:37.620 Court justices.

00:44:38.260 It's the reason a lot of these conservatives fell in love with Trump, who previously hadn't,

00:44:42.100 because any other president would have folded on Kavanaugh in a New York minute.

00:44:46.220 Right.

00:44:46.500 As soon as those Me Too attacks came in, Christine Blasey poured like a cheap tent down. 1.00

00:44:51.300 Right.

00:44:52.320 They would have been.

00:44:53.260 But he wasn't.

00:44:54.340 Right.

00:44:54.720 So I give him a lot of credit.

00:44:56.400 Well, what do you think?

00:44:57.160 Because I've been thinking about that today.

00:44:58.840 Given this historic decision that we think may be coming out, who knows, but it looks

00:45:03.540 like it's going to go the way the conservatives have been fighting for.

00:45:06.180 How much credit does Trump get for that?

00:45:08.300 He should get tremendous credit.

00:45:09.660 You know, I was never a never Trumper.

00:45:11.380 No, I know.

00:45:11.860 Yeah.

00:45:12.140 I mean, once he got the nomin, I was for other people.

00:45:14.720 But once he got the nomination, I supported him.

00:45:16.880 And as I said in the book, just on the Supreme Court and judges, I would have crawled over

00:45:22.000 a broken glass to vote for him because the democratic agenda is to shift governance to

00:45:28.820 the court system.

00:45:29.660 And he wanted to put in people who will actually interpret the law.

00:45:33.760 So I think he deserves a lot of credit for making that one of the pillars of his administration

00:45:39.660 and sticking with it and following through.

00:45:42.000 That's another good thing about him.

00:45:43.280 When he said he would do something, he actually tried to do it.

00:45:47.860 Back to your tenure, a couple quick hits I wanted to ask you about.

00:45:50.840 The Whitmer, you know, alleged kidnapping plot, that case has fallen apart, not guilty or

00:45:57.360 a mistrial.

00:45:58.180 That was started while you were the AG.

00:46:00.020 Any regrets on that?

00:46:01.700 No, because, you know, as I'm sure you know, you have thousands of cases around the country

00:46:08.660 and you can't get into each individual case.

00:46:11.180 You have to rely on your U.S. attorneys to, you know, to have the evidence.

00:46:15.820 I didn't personally review that case.

00:46:17.600 Do you feel like it came out the right way?

00:46:20.080 Which one?

00:46:21.000 The Whitmer, I mean, the trying of these guys, there were more informants than there were 0.55

00:46:24.620 defendants.

00:46:25.540 It was like the FBI's crime.

00:46:27.400 These guys were barely into it.

00:46:28.840 It does touch a raw nerve with me because when I first came in, I was saying, look, we, you

00:46:38.660 know, tell me everything you know about Antifa, these far left groups that were heavily involved

00:46:42.560 in political violence, as far as I could tell, just from watching, you know, the news.

00:46:47.120 And they really were not on top of that situation, but they were very on top of the right wing

00:46:53.080 groups.

00:46:53.860 Fascinating.

00:46:54.180 And over the years, they had penetrated and had all these reports coming out on the right

00:46:58.540 wing groups, but very little work done on the Antifa.

00:47:02.340 And I told them, you better get your act together and get on top of this because this is where

00:47:07.080 the dangers, I think, is going to come from.

00:47:09.720 And it did over the summer.

00:47:11.640 Boy, it did indeed.

00:47:13.300 Look, you've done so much trying to shore up law enforcement, and we're seeing the results

00:47:16.960 right now in so many cities of not listening to the warnings of a guy like Bill Barr.

00:47:22.280 It's sad, too, because it's communities of color that are paying the biggest price.

00:47:26.100 And we just saw that from the FBI this week.

00:47:29.280 So I know you've got a ton of expertise.

00:47:31.460 This has to be just part one.

00:47:32.780 Can we make this part one?

00:47:34.400 Be delighted to come back.

00:47:36.220 Okay, good.

00:47:36.500 And we'll do part two, and we'll talk about everything else.

00:47:39.080 Because there's just so much goodness to be mined from Mr. Barr's book, from his life,

00:47:44.720 from your experience, and we're delighted to have you.

00:47:46.780 Thank you.

00:47:47.240 Yeah, thank you.

00:47:47.880 Thank you for being here.

00:47:49.140 Don't forget to buy the book. 0.99

00:47:50.540 One damn thing after another. 0.99

00:47:52.640 All the best to you, General. 0.99

00:47:54.580 We're going to be right back.

00:47:55.540 Don't go away.

00:47:58.600 Welcome back to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:48:00.180 Just a short time ago, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell called for a criminal investigation

00:48:05.540 and criminal charges into whoever leaked the Supreme Court opinion that signaled the court

00:48:11.800 is prepared to overturn Roe v. Wade and Casey v. Planned Parenthood, which upheld Roe in part

00:48:18.760 some 20 years after it was first decided.

00:48:21.600 According to Senator McConnell, the leaker, quote, should be investigated and punished as

00:48:26.920 fully as possible.

00:48:28.100 Joining me now for more, Alan Dershowitz, Professor Emeritus of Harvard Law School.

00:48:33.400 Professor, great to have you back, especially on a day like this.

00:48:36.780 Thanks for being here.

00:48:37.700 Thank you.

00:48:38.440 What do you make of that?

00:48:39.200 Because I just had Bill Barr on.

00:48:40.360 He said, yes, the leaker can and likely should be prosecuted, perhaps for obstruction of justice.

00:48:46.540 Mitch McConnell saying the same.

00:48:48.760 Do you agree?

00:48:49.760 No, I don't agree.

00:48:50.620 You don't make up criminal laws.

00:48:52.140 There's nothing on the criminal law statute book today that would permit prosecution.

00:48:56.500 There should be a law and maybe Congress can pass one.

00:48:59.420 But you can't use vague terms like obstruction of justice when this is a political decision.

00:49:05.200 Plainly, this was a young person, a law clerk, probably a law clerk who was very strongly

00:49:10.640 opposed to overruling Roe v. Wade, who decided to engage in an act of civil disobedience.

00:49:16.320 If that person is caught, he or she should be fired, perhaps not admitted to the bar,

00:49:22.400 but not criminally prosecuted.

00:49:23.740 You don't use the criminal justice system unless there is a statute on the books which

00:49:29.060 clearly, clearly criminalizes the conduct at issue.

00:49:33.560 You know, people tend to say, if we don't like something, it must be criminal.

00:49:37.200 And, you know, I don't like what this guy did or this woman did.

00:49:40.200 I think it's wrong, but I would not criminally prosecute.

00:49:44.880 And if that person is caught and wants to retain me as the lawyer, I'll represent them

00:49:50.560 if I disagree with what they did, because you can't make something into a crime that

00:49:55.520 isn't under the law a criminal offense.

00:49:58.900 Well, I asked Attorney General Barr about that and said, you know, how could you get him

00:50:02.560 on obstruction of justice?

00:50:03.540 And he was essentially saying this was an attempt to thwart the Supreme Court opinion

00:50:08.980 as originally drafted to influence the justices inappropriately by bearing, you know, public

00:50:14.560 pressure down on them and that that might qualify.

00:50:17.280 That wouldn't qualify.

00:50:18.680 That's not an obstruction of justice.

00:50:20.540 Obstruction of justice has been defined over the years in very, very narrow terms.

00:50:26.000 So although I respect Bill Barr and like him, I think he's just wrong on that.

00:50:32.540 But people on both sides of the political aisle have used the criminal justice system inappropriately

00:50:38.880 to punish conduct with which they disagree.

00:50:42.140 I'm always taking the view that my own personal views, I'm a strong supporter of Roe.

00:50:47.280 I don't think it should be overruled.

00:50:48.920 I think it would be a terrible mistake.

00:50:50.820 On the other hand, you know, I don't allow that to influence my analysis of how this will

00:50:58.660 impact the Supreme Court.

00:51:00.920 I don't think it will impact on the Supreme Court, but I think the person leaking it thought

00:51:06.160 it might and desperate times require measures probably is what the law clerk believed.

00:51:13.280 Well, they can tell themselves that all the way to the disbarment proceedings that are absolutely

00:51:17.740 going to happen against them.

00:51:19.380 I mean, I don't I don't I haven't seen a breach like this from somebody in the time I've covered

00:51:23.600 the court or been practicing law.

00:51:25.740 Now, it's it's hard to convey to the layperson how egregious a breach of ethics and trust and

00:51:34.080 confidentiality and procedure in an in the third branch where we don't see this kind of

00:51:39.720 thing.

00:51:40.160 This is.

00:51:41.580 You know, it is.

00:51:42.800 You know, I've been covering and following for close to 60 years.

00:51:46.520 I was a law clerk on the Supreme Court about 55 years ago.

00:51:49.880 This has never or happened.

00:51:52.420 But then again, students at Yale Law School today believe that you can shut people down

00:51:57.800 and not allow them to speak if they have different views on abortion or gay rights.

00:52:01.740 So we are experiencing a generation of young people, particularly on the left.

00:52:06.500 But I'm sure there are some on the right as well who don't believe in the rule of law,

00:52:09.980 who think that the rule of law is a paternalistic, patronizing, colonial, you know, you name it.

00:52:15.800 Every bad thing.

00:52:16.840 They think free speech is unnecessary, due process is unnecessary and secrecy is unnecessary.

00:52:22.800 So it wouldn't surprise me at all if one of these radical leftists did this.

00:52:29.040 Look, it's possible somebody on the other side did it.

00:52:31.460 I don't believe that.

00:52:32.860 But it's possible somebody would say, gee, there's some people who are vacillating on the

00:52:38.220 Supreme Court.

00:52:38.720 Let's lock them in by leaking the decision.

00:52:41.200 I don't think that's likely.

00:52:42.580 One thing I'm sure of is it wasn't a justice because I don't think a justice would know how

00:52:46.260 to call Politico or probably most of them ever heard of Politico.

00:52:50.260 It was a young person, I think, who had a friend in Politico, a reporter who he or they could

00:52:57.100 trust.

00:52:57.540 Now, we're going to see a big issue because if there is an investigation, there'll be a

00:53:00.960 subpoena directed at the journalist.

00:53:02.380 And then the journalist will claim privilege.

00:53:05.160 And maybe the court will rule against the privilege because the courts aren't going to

00:53:08.080 be sympathetic, obviously, to a leak.

00:53:10.560 Interesting.

00:53:11.000 So we'll see whether the journalists were prepared to become Judith Miller and go to

00:53:16.640 prison rather than reveal her sources. 0.62

00:53:19.760 This is the beginning of a larger, larger issue that will play out over months.

00:53:24.580 It will also play out politically.

00:53:26.680 I think if somebody thought this was going to help the Republicans, they were wrong.

00:53:30.460 I wrote back in 2000, if Roe versus Wade were overruled, it would be a gift to the Democrats

00:53:36.480 because it would turn abortion into a legislative matter, a political matter. 0.91

00:53:41.460 And the vast majority of Americans don't want to see their daughters go back into back 1.00

00:53:46.020 alleys.

00:53:46.560 So I think it would help the Democrats in the end.

00:53:49.060 Hmm.

00:53:49.660 I don't know.

00:53:50.540 I'm not sure if it's going to be that motivational.

00:53:52.420 I mean, right now we were looking into this.

00:53:54.460 You know, there's an abortion pill right now that one can get from the FDA and they loosened

00:53:59.900 the rules to make it easier to get it last December.

00:54:02.580 And so if you're in Mississippi and they outlaw abortion, which is one of the states that's

00:54:08.820 got this so-called trigger law where they're going to restrict abortion probably entirely

00:54:13.460 if this decision comes down, as we expect, you can still get this abortion pill.

00:54:19.300 It's only workable till the 10th week of pregnancy.

00:54:22.880 Maybe not.

00:54:23.700 Maybe the Mississippi law is going to say, well, you can't mail that into Mississippi.

00:54:27.020 But women will find ways around that from the affected states. 1.00

00:54:31.020 I just I'm not sure it's going to be the same as it was when you had to go to the clinic.

00:54:35.420 You had to pass the protesters.

00:54:37.440 You had to have a surgical procedure.

00:54:39.940 I don't know.

00:54:41.360 I hope you're right.

00:54:42.020 I hope you're right.

00:54:42.700 Look, I was into it when they passed a law in Connecticut saying birth control was illegal

00:54:49.080 and birth control clinics could be outlawed.

00:54:52.460 And the Supreme Court in Griswold versus Connecticut reversed that.

00:54:56.720 And that became the stepping stone, obviously, to Roe versus Wade.

00:55:00.080 And although Alito said that, no, this opinion only affects abortion, doesn't affect other

00:55:06.480 things like gay rights or presumably the right to use birth control.

00:55:11.000 You never know what states will do.

00:55:14.180 And many state legislatures are out of sync with the public, are way the right in some

00:55:21.720 states and will vote for as much of a ban as you can get.

00:55:25.640 But I hope you're right.

00:55:26.580 I think you're probably right that it won't have the same impact it would have had in 1973

00:55:31.720 if abortion were not made a constitutional right back then.

00:55:36.720 I do think there are ways around back alley abortions. 1.00

00:55:39.700 But, you know, there's some history in South America that does suggest that there still are

00:55:44.220 back alley abortions and pills, you know, they have to be known to people. 0.97

00:55:49.840 They have to get to them.

00:55:51.380 And again, it's going to affect the poorest and the least well-educated.

00:55:54.180 Right. That's absolutely true.

00:55:55.560 The poor women are the ones who suffer the most when it comes to this kind of thing. 1.00

00:55:59.080 But, you know, Bill Barr's response to that would be that's federalism.

00:56:02.880 Welcome to federalism.

00:56:03.900 It's not a constitutional right.

00:56:05.200 It's not in the Constitution.

00:56:06.640 You can absolutely go petition for a constitutional amendment if you think you can get the support

00:56:10.300 for that.

00:56:11.040 Otherwise, you're going to have to deal with what your state says.

00:56:13.000 And if you don't like what your state says, there's always the power of your feet.

00:56:15.520 Well, you know, you can say that and you can say that about gay rights and gay marriage.

00:56:21.640 You can say that about gun control.

00:56:24.140 And suddenly we federalized and made a constitutional right out of the right to bear arms.

00:56:29.000 That one's in there.

00:56:29.980 That one's explicitly in there.

00:56:31.320 That's not like abortion.

00:56:33.020 It's like abortion.

00:56:34.320 This is in there in language that's ambiguous.

00:56:36.360 The language says it relates it directly to militias.

00:56:42.260 And there was a history, a precedent of 150 years saying that there was no private right

00:56:47.980 to bear arms and that precedent was overruled.

00:56:50.180 You can apply it to Brown v. Board of Education.

00:56:52.380 Brown v. Board of Education is not a good decision.

00:56:56.480 Logically, it uses a lot of empirical data that's highly questionable, but nobody's going

00:57:02.420 to reverse Brown v. Board.

00:57:03.780 And if you had asked the framers of the 14th that wrote equal protection, do you think

00:57:10.040 the protection means that a black man can marry a white woman? 0.99

00:57:13.500 They'd say, you're crazy. 1.00

00:57:14.820 You're nuts. 1.00

00:57:15.980 It means that a black kid could go to school with a white kid. 1.00

00:57:18.560 You're out of your mind. 0.98

00:57:19.740 They would never have passed.

00:57:20.840 Well, I think you're right about that.

00:57:21.940 I think you're right.

00:57:22.720 But but there's some there's some there's a logical appeal to what somebody like Scalia

00:57:28.300 would say to that and originalist, which is OK.

00:57:31.380 No one's saying those are good things.

00:57:32.840 What we're saying is go get a constitutional amendment.

00:57:35.400 There's a there's a nifty way built right in where you can get amendments and you can

00:57:38.560 get these things made into constitutional rights if that's what you want.

00:57:41.200 But we shouldn't be reading things into this that aren't there.

00:57:44.760 That's not Scalia's answer.

00:57:46.200 Let me tell you why.

00:57:47.060 Scalia came to my class in criminal law the first year.

00:57:50.540 He was on the Supreme Court.

00:57:51.540 And I put that test question indirectly.

00:57:54.040 And there's a tape of it.

00:57:55.820 And he didn't give the answer that you might think.

00:57:58.260 Amend the Constitution to give us Brown versus Board of Education.

00:58:02.400 He said originalism isn't perfect.

00:58:04.540 It has problems.

00:58:05.440 And Brown versus Board of Education is one of those problems.

00:58:08.700 I can't answer your question about Brown versus Board of Education.

00:58:13.360 But it's better.

00:58:14.480 He said, like democracy and maybe the worst of all the systems.

00:58:17.760 But he said that about originalism.

00:58:20.760 He didn't say it was perfect.

00:58:21.820 And he didn't say it was Saul Brown versus Board of Education.

00:58:25.240 And my friends who are pro a right of abortion say the same thing about this.

00:58:29.960 It may not be explicitly in the Constitution.

00:58:32.000 Neither is birth control.

00:58:33.200 It's under the right of privacy.

00:58:34.900 It's a living Constitution.

00:58:36.580 The argument is.

00:58:38.240 And therefore, it should cover abortion, at least some abortion, as well as birth control.

00:58:43.960 But Alan, you can't say that Roe versus Wade.

00:58:46.320 And look, I'm not taking a position on abortion one way or the other.

00:58:48.900 There are certain things as a reporter I choose not to reveal.

00:58:50.860 And my position on that as a person, as an American, as a woman is my own.

00:58:55.680 But there's no question. 0.99

00:58:58.300 I look at Roe and it's like it just looks like a pile of trash knitted together to me. 0.98

00:59:05.160 It's like the trimester system. 0.90

00:59:07.420 These judges making stuff up about viability.

00:59:10.300 They decided to play God and just make up fake lines, which is why it was struck down in large part in Casey, except for its core, which was the fundamental right.

00:59:19.140 How do you distinguish that from gay marriage and gay rights?

00:59:22.840 The framers of our Constitution never would have permitted gay marriage or gay rights.

00:59:26.620 The framers of the 14th Amendment never would have permitted it.

00:59:29.180 Both of the right of privacy and personal choice and bodily integrity and all of that.

00:59:36.580 And I don't think very many people today, I hope, don't want to overrule the right of gay people to live their lives free of governmental constraints.

00:59:47.520 The thing that concerns me is conservatives are supposed to want to keep the government out of the bathroom, out of the bedroom, out of the bed, out of the hospital.

00:59:57.120 And yet more and more conservatives want the government to intrude into private decisions like abortion and all in marriage and all of that.

01:00:08.700 And and and so, you know, there's hypocrisy on all sides. 0.85

01:00:12.300 I think there's a big push on the GOP side to get rid of gay marriage. 0.63

01:00:15.400 I do think there's a big push on abortion because that's seen as a fundamental issue of death and life.

01:00:20.480 I mean, I don't know how to explain it to you.

01:00:21.980 You're a religious man, you know.

01:00:23.980 I agree with that.

01:00:24.720 I think there's a big difference between abortion.

01:00:26.560 I think, look, I wrote critically of Roe versus Wade when it was decided.

01:00:30.540 And I here 2000 in my book on the Supreme Court that Roe versus Wade was a great favor to Republicans.

01:00:39.260 It it people who were pro-choice Republicans into pro-life Republicans, people like First President Bush and Rockefeller Republicans.

01:00:51.520 It helped eliminate the moderate wing of the Republican Party and turn it more to to the right.

01:00:58.660 It's a very complicated factor.

01:01:00.620 And the one thing Alito did get right, and he was right about this, and that is unlike Brown versus Board, this decision in Roe didn't stop the politics and didn't persuade people.

01:01:11.800 It didn't have an impact on public opinion.

01:01:14.660 The public opinion is as divided today.

01:01:16.540 Well, let me pause you there.

01:01:19.100 Let me can you just explain to the viewers and listeners who haven't read the opinion, because he does spend a fair amount of time talking about what in particular Casey, which affirmed Roe 20 years later, said about like, let this be the final decision.

01:01:32.940 Now, go on your merry way, that the court had these aspirations of this being the last word on it, which he's pointing out in his draft opinion, was just not the case at all.

01:01:44.620 Well, but why didn't he say that when he was being confirmed?

01:01:47.140 Why did he say when he was being confirmed and when when several of the others, Gorsuch and Kavanaugh, both of whom I admire, why weren't they more honest than in their confirmation hearings?

01:01:59.560 And why didn't they say these aren't super precedents and Roe and Casey?

01:02:03.820 They're up for grabs. And if we have enough votes, we'll overrule it.

01:02:08.260 Not only. And Barrett did say she wouldn't comment on that.

01:02:11.860 So her credit. But the three of them, the other three in their confirmation hearings basically said, look, it's precedent.

01:02:18.440 It's the law. It's 30 years old, 40 years old, 50 years old.

01:02:22.260 I mean, they all lie.

01:02:24.360 They all lie when it comes to their actual feelings about cases like that, because they know it's a deal breaker.

01:02:28.400 I mean, let's not forget that our most recently confirmed Supreme Court justice to be just tried to say she didn't understand what a woman was. 0.98

01:02:35.360 They all mislead. It's a joke.

01:02:37.940 I understand what a woman is for purposes of athletic competition, for purposes of using bathrooms, for purposes of being admitted to an all women's college. 0.99

01:02:48.080 It's all contextual. I agree with her. I think she it isn't.

01:02:51.940 It is. It is not.

01:02:54.440 Then we got bigger problems to go over, you and I. But we'll save that for another time.

01:02:58.940 By the way, some of the insane lunatics online are like, it was one of Ketanji Brown Jackson's clerks. 0.59

01:03:04.660 You are not helpful.

01:03:06.940 She's not yet actually on their deciding cases, but she will be at some point.

01:03:12.580 But it was definitely not Ketanji Brown Jackson or any of her clerks.

01:03:14.860 Can we just spend one more minute? Because I didn't get to ask you more closely, closely enough.

01:03:20.440 Disbarment, don't you think? If if this was a law clerk, that person should be disbarred.

01:03:25.280 Look, I hope that person doesn't ask me to represent them.

01:03:29.040 And then I have to say, no, he or she shouldn't be disbarred.

01:03:32.120 But as he was not representing anybody at the moment, I do think disbarment seems appropriate.

01:03:37.780 Why? But remember, why? But before you say the but, tell us why.

01:03:42.320 Well, you made an oath.

01:03:44.440 You know, I was a Supreme Court law clerk.

01:03:46.560 I would have loved to gossip about some of the decisions.

01:03:49.320 I was there during some of the major, major decisions during the civil rights period.

01:03:53.740 I would have gotten a lot of free dinners and gone to a lot of good parties if I had leaked what the Supreme Court was about to do.

01:03:59.060 But we all knew we had an oath.

01:04:01.160 We we wouldn't even tell our spouses about Supreme Court decisions.

01:04:04.920 We we wouldn't we always had sealed briefcases.

01:04:09.560 And when we took the decisions home with us, it was sacred.

01:04:13.260 And and no law clerk would dream of sending an opinion to to Politico.

01:04:20.260 But we live in a different world today.

01:04:21.860 We live in a world where young people think they're above the law and that's the obedience is justified. 1.00

01:04:28.260 Look, it may have been justified against segregation, which was lawless in the end.

01:04:33.020 And then people did engage in civil disobedience and rightfully so.

01:04:37.140 This is different.

01:04:38.180 The rule of law operates in the Supreme Court.

01:04:40.340 And I agree with the chief justice who said this is singular and outrageous and should be prosecuted to the extent of the law, not criminally.

01:04:48.560 But disbarment, firing of court is right.

01:04:52.440 You know what's going to happen to this person if they're ever caught.

01:04:55.460 They'll be disbarred, but they'll become a hero to people on some sides of the political spectrum.

01:05:01.520 And you know what they'll end up doing?

01:05:03.260 They'll end up having podcasts like you and me, and they'll end up being journalists and end up maybe being law professors.

01:05:11.260 But they're not members of the bar who can practice because what they did was in violation of the rules of their employment.

01:05:19.360 That's the thing is like when you become a lawyer, you take an ethical oath.

01:05:22.720 It's not a regular job.

01:05:24.240 It's not like, you know, I've worked retail, I've taught aerobics, I've done different kinds of jobs.

01:05:29.300 They don't make you take an oath, upholding, pledging to uphold certain ethics like they do to become a lawyer.

01:05:35.240 OK, let me ask you a couple of things.

01:05:36.320 So this is what your old pal Lauren Strive says.

01:05:38.420 Predictable next steps after the Alito opinion, which, again, I want to underscore, is a draft.

01:05:44.180 We do not know that this is the final opinion.

01:05:46.320 What a turnaround it would be if next month they release something going the opposite way, though that's not expected.

01:05:51.400 He says predictable next steps after this.

01:05:53.500 A nationwide abortion ban followed by a push to roll back rights to contraception, same-sex marriage, sexual privacy, and the full array of textually unenumerated rights long taken for granted.

01:06:07.760 Do you agree that the next step will likely be a nationwide abortion ban?

01:06:13.880 No, I don't think so.

01:06:15.480 There aren't any justices, maybe, maybe Thomas, but certainly not a majority for having a constitutional right to life.

01:06:24.520 That is, that it would be unconstitutional to allow abortions. 0.99

01:06:28.860 I don't think that's true.

01:06:30.300 Let's remember that Tribe is responsible in part for this. 0.97

01:06:33.900 Tribe is the person who got Bork defeated for the nomination in the Supreme Court, and that led to the politicization of the Supreme Court.

01:06:42.620 So he bears some responsibility for this back when he went to the mat on Bork, who was perfectly well qualified to be in the Supreme Court, but just had opinions that disagreed with tribes.

01:06:55.240 He goes on to say something that I just read that matches up with, again, forgive me, what Jeffrey Toobin is saying on CNN, which is that same-sex marriage is now in jeopardy, that all of these other cases are now in jeopardy where they used either privacy rights or, you know, gay marriage.

01:07:12.980 They used the due process clause, but they expanded sort of these social rights, for lack of a better term.

01:07:18.940 And these guys, who are left-wing commentators, are saying they're all in jeopardy.

01:07:23.880 Now, you're a liberal, but you've always been a straight shooter.

01:07:27.420 So what say you?

01:07:28.380 Are these actually, do you actually believe that these are in jeopardy next?

01:07:31.300 There will be efforts by some religious conservatives to bring lawsuits challenging a gay marriage.

01:07:38.780 I don't think they would go as far as to try to overrule Griswold versus Connecticut, which, in which Connecticut tried, Connecticut, a liberal state, banned birth control clinics.

01:07:49.640 Forget about abortion, birth control clinics, and that had to be reversed by the Supreme Court. 0.99

01:07:53.740 I think that's a bridge too far.

01:07:55.500 I don't think we're going to go much further to support gay rights or gay marriage, but I think that's pretty solid.

01:08:04.660 I think birth control is pretty solid.

01:08:08.560 Try to undo them, but I don't think they'll succeed. 0.86

01:08:10.880 Abortion is different because, remember, gay rights, whose business is it if a gay man or a gay woman has sex or marries somebody of their own sex? 0.98

01:08:19.060 Who cares? 0.98

01:08:19.800 It's nobody's business.

01:08:20.800 But abortion, for many people in this country, mean killing fetuses.

01:08:25.500 And fetuses have souls and they're alive.

01:08:28.740 It's not something that I necessarily support, but it's something that a lot of Americans support.

01:08:33.740 And you're not going to talk them out of it.

01:08:35.020 So I think abortion is unique. 0.99

01:08:37.000 And I don't think the slippery slope applies here the way Tribe and Tubin think they do. 0.99

01:08:41.640 But, you know, Tribe and Tubin is wrong about everything because they allow their personal views to influence their analysis.

01:08:49.800 I never allow my personal views.

01:08:51.580 You know, that's true.

01:08:53.800 That's true.

01:08:54.280 And honestly, I mean, it must be noted that Jeffrey Toobin himself has been in the news, you know, over the past whatever.

01:08:59.340 We all know why he was in the news over the past couple of years because he was caught masturbating on a Zoom call for The New Yorker.

01:09:04.040 But this is a guy who openly pressured his young lover he was having an affair with his wife to have an abortion and then denied paternity when she refused.

01:09:12.900 I mean, like, it's just very uncomfortable to see him commenting on this on CNN, given his history and how we know that that issue has played out in his own life.

01:09:22.860 I'm not saying you're all disqualified from if you had an abortion, you can never comment on it or if you didn't have one.

01:09:28.280 It's just we know his situation is very public, so everyone should take it with a grain of salt.

01:09:33.460 I do I do wonder, though, because I don't think this is a cowboy Supreme Court.

01:09:38.540 I really don't.

01:09:39.300 I think John Roberts has tried.

01:09:41.000 He's bent over backwards to try to make sure it's not a cowboy Supreme Court. 0.88

01:09:44.200 So I just don't see them.

01:09:45.240 This is a huge, huge decision, right?

01:09:49.320 Probably the biggest we've had in decades.

01:09:51.560 And I can't see them coming anywhere near these other issues now.

01:09:55.900 I feel like those issues are less likely to be touched now than they were a year ago, because this is like the big one, the big enchilada.

01:10:04.540 And if the Supreme Court keeps taking cases like these and then they got a gun rights case, they got some other cases of religious rights case, this term that should be decided soon.

01:10:12.000 But like they're not going to go back over this stuff, Alan, they they'd lose their moral authority.

01:10:17.300 And at the end of the day, isn't that all they have to really make us comply with their orders?

01:10:21.620 I agree with you.

01:10:22.780 And that's why Chief Justice Roberts will try very hard to keep them from doing that.

01:10:27.060 But that won't affect Justice Thomas.

01:10:31.560 I think it will affect Justice Kavanaugh.

01:10:35.900 I think it will affect Justice Barrett.

01:10:38.740 There's no they there. 0.95

01:10:40.080 There are nine individuals, and I think each of them will consider this issue differently.

01:10:45.160 I do not think there will be a majority to go back and reverse years and years and years of precedents involving civil liberties and privacy.

01:10:53.860 I do not think that will happen by a majority.

01:10:56.340 But there may be one or two justices who see this as a green light.

01:11:00.060 Our last question.

01:11:00.680 Do you think there's any chance because the Chief Justice is saying that whoever thought that we could be manipulated was wrong?

01:11:06.020 That's my own paraphrasing.

01:11:07.200 Do you think there is any chance that that somebody who's in that majority opinion might flip?

01:11:15.100 I mean, what do you think the odds are that this will come out with anything other than a five person majority to strike down Roe versus Casey within the next six weeks?

01:11:25.320 I think it's possible because it won't require a big flip.

01:11:29.280 All it would require is judicial restraint.

01:11:32.300 Uphold the statute in Mississippi and say we don't have to reach the issue of the Roberts way.

01:11:38.080 That's what we're hearing Roberts is likely to do.

01:11:39.880 Sorry.

01:11:40.100 Go ahead.

01:11:41.280 Right way.

01:11:42.280 Judicial conservatives who who espouse who oppose judicial activism should be doing.

01:11:48.760 The issue of overruling Roe versus Wade is not necessary to the decision in this case.

01:11:54.220 All they have to do is decide that the Mississippi law limiting 15 weeks is constitutional.

01:12:00.360 That's what they should do if they're conservatives who believe in judicial restraint.

01:12:05.600 And that's well, it's possible that Roberts may be able to twist the arm of Kavanaugh.

01:12:10.820 Maybe Barrett.

01:12:11.760 Barrett, unlikely any of the others.

01:12:15.200 Well, that's the that's led to some interesting speculation online about could even and I don't believe this for one second, but could even the chief justice have leaked this?

01:12:23.420 Could it have been somebody like the chief justice trying to get, you know, pressure on those two guys or gals to come over to his side?

01:12:31.000 Go ahead.

01:12:32.080 No, no justice did this.

01:12:33.520 It was either a law clerk or somebody in the printing office or an employee or something like that, but it was not a justice, I believe.

01:12:42.480 But we'll wait and see.

01:12:44.640 And we may never know because the journalists may refuse to disclose the source.

01:12:51.100 If the FBI is involved, they may have.

01:12:53.480 They're going to know they're going to know.

01:12:55.420 The journalist will not turn on his source to his credit.

01:12:58.300 And the Supreme Court law clerks are going to fold like cheap tents because they are not rough and tumble street fighters. 0.97

01:13:06.680 They are elite upper ivory tower Supreme Court law clerks.

01:13:11.220 And they're going to be scared shitless as soon as the FBI shows up saying, I want your electronic records.

01:13:16.700 I've already checked them.

01:13:17.980 I know exactly who you've been communicating with.

01:13:20.060 And you're effed unless you confess.

01:13:22.340 But remember, too, that this opinion may have been laundered through somebody else.

01:13:27.760 That is to give it to Politico.

01:13:32.080 There are ways that make it more difficult to get to the source of this material.

01:13:37.080 There are ways.

01:13:38.100 But once the FBI is looking into it, which, you know, it sounds like they may, you're dead.

01:13:42.500 They're going to find the clerk is dead.

01:13:44.780 They not not physically dead, dead in terms of his or her cover up.

01:13:48.620 We're going to know their name. 1.00

01:13:49.620 Maybe it's what they want, like little stupid anonymous in the White House to try to make himself sound like a big man. 1.00

01:13:54.920 Then we all found it. 1.00

01:13:55.680 It was nobody.

01:13:56.860 This person did an unethical thing.

01:13:58.540 And as far as I'm concerned, that's how they'll be known forevermore.

01:14:00.940 A spineless, weakling, political hack whose very first act as a lawyer was to betray the very oath they appeared to have taken.

01:14:08.000 All right.

01:14:08.200 That's still the last word.

01:14:09.180 Alan Dershowitz, anything but a hack, a principled man who takes the barbs better than anybody because he sticks to his principles and he doesn't really care whether you like him.

01:14:19.020 And that's why he has fights with Larry David.

01:14:20.780 Great to have you here.

01:14:22.600 Pleasure.

01:14:23.120 Thank you so much.

01:14:24.740 Coming up, Ali Beth Stuckey.

01:14:28.300 Look, whatever you think about this decision, this is a huge day for people who've been fighting a very long time to end Roe versus Wade.

01:14:37.420 It's not final yet, but this is the best news they've gotten in 50 years.

01:14:42.360 And Ali Beth will join us with that piece of the story in moments.

01:14:47.540 Welcome back to The Megyn Kelly Show.

01:14:49.160 We are continuing to follow all the reaction coming in regarding the bombshell Supreme Court leak.

01:14:54.560 Just a short time ago, Senator Elizabeth Warren went to the Supreme Court steps in order to call conservative justices, quote, extremists and let everyone know just how angry she is. 1.00

01:15:06.680 Take a listen.

01:15:08.440 I am angry because an extremist United States Supreme Court thinks that they can impose their extremist views on all of the women of this country and they are wrong.

01:15:28.540 She's upset.

01:15:32.980 You can see that.

01:15:34.540 Meantime, Democratic Congresswoman Ilhan Omar tweeted, expand the court.

01:15:39.720 That's what Eli Mistal over at MSNBC said as well.

01:15:44.300 Senator Bernie Sanders is calling for Congress to pass legislation codifying Roe versus Wade as the law of the land, saying we must end the filibuster to pass it with 50 votes.

01:15:55.580 You heard Bill Barr, former attorney general of the United States, say that they don't have the power to do that.

01:15:59.900 They cannot.

01:16:01.340 And Vice President Kamala Harris just weighing in, saying the rights of all Americans are at risk.

01:16:07.960 She just has a way of simplifying everything, doesn't she?

01:16:12.500 Joining me now, Ali Beth Stuckey, host of the podcast Relatable.

01:16:15.580 So, Ali Beth, you were one of the first people I thought of when I saw this decision.

01:16:20.100 And I know we spent a lot of time in the leak and we'll spend more in this segment talking about it, too, because actually there's new information coming in on who it might be.

01:16:26.260 But can we just spend a moment on how huge this is or is going to be if it comes down as we now expect it to be?

01:16:38.260 Put it in perspective for us.

01:16:39.880 Yes. You know, in our 24 minute news cycle and just in our election cycles, we expect political changes to happen quickly.

01:16:48.800 We want them to happen quickly.

01:16:50.280 The problems that we face, we are not used to having to wait many years or even a generation for the problems that we are facing to be solved or we don't want to wait that long.

01:17:01.580 We expect our politicians to be able to do something immediately as soon as they are pressured to do something that is when we want it.

01:17:07.920 We are very much microwave generations.

01:17:10.540 We are used to that immediate gratification and satisfaction of getting what we want easily.

01:17:15.880 However, when you look at pro-life activism, this has been 50 years of torch passing.

01:17:21.280 This has been 50 years of advocacy, 50 years of people arguing, hey, this is unconstitutional.

01:17:28.120 This is immoral.

01:17:29.140 These people inside the womb, they are human beings and therefore it's pretty simple.

01:17:33.500 They are entitled to human rights, the most fundamental being the right to not be murdered as an innocent person.

01:17:40.160 And so it's been 50 years of telling the truth, 50 years of very simple, both legal and moral arguments that has come to this.

01:17:47.980 And as you mentioned, we don't know for sure the conclusion if this is going to be overturned.

01:17:53.320 But wow, this is such a beautiful representation of what years of consistency and persistence and dedication to one cause can do.

01:18:03.340 And I don't take anything away.

01:18:06.420 I mean, I have so many friends who are on the other side of this, and I know that they're scared and they're hurting and they've fought equally hard on the other side.

01:18:14.740 And so this is not to take away from their legitimate concerns, though it really is going to depend on what state you're in.

01:18:21.360 You know, it is going to depend on what and if this is a huge concern for you, you're probably going to live in a blue state.

01:18:25.780 But I will say you've got to tip the hat to to Mississippi and the lawmakers there who specifically crafted this law in an effort to create a Supreme Court challenge case that would go up and that it would actually make it hard for to go the Chief Justice Roberts way.

01:18:43.600 And forgive me, because I'm just assuming that the political report about the way he's going is true.

01:18:47.720 I have no freaking clue.

01:18:48.820 We should all remember that.

01:18:49.660 But they Mississippi understood that there were people like Roberts on the court who would try to sort of, you know, have it both ways and find a middle ground.

01:18:58.960 And they tried to craft a statute that would make them take a look and say, no, there's no way through this other than to decide whether Roe and Casey stand or have to be overturned.

01:19:11.100 And they went in there and made the case.

01:19:13.600 I mentioned one of the things with Attorney General Barr, only six countries outside of the United States permit elective abortion after 20 weeks.

01:19:21.400 We are in the tiny minority and our permissiveness on this subject versus the rest of the free world.

01:19:27.740 And the other countries are like third world countries. 0.97

01:19:30.920 And then the court recounts some of the evidence put in front of it by Mississippi.

01:19:36.900 This is in the Alito draft opinion.

01:19:38.360 By six weeks, the heart is beating.

01:19:40.940 By eight weeks, the baby's moving.

01:19:42.900 By nine weeks, all basic physiological functions are present.

01:19:45.700 Again, this is from Alito.

01:19:46.960 By 10 weeks, vital organs begin to function and hair, fingernails, et cetera, begin to form.

01:19:51.040 By 11 weeks, and keep in mind that abortion pill, you can get that from a doctor that will end the pregnancy up to 10 weeks, up to 10 weeks.

01:19:59.900 Vital organs begin to function and hair, fingernails, et cetera, begin to form.

01:20:03.560 This is why people get upset.

01:20:04.740 This is why people like Allie Beth say you have to actually know what's happening.

01:20:09.060 It's easy to do it when you're not thinking about what's actually inside of you.

01:20:12.680 It may not be easy, but you see my point.

01:20:15.120 11, may move freely about in the womb.

01:20:17.140 12 weeks, has taken on the human form in all relevant respects.

01:20:21.360 Abortion's still legal in the United States.

01:20:23.320 Most after 15 weeks, mothers would need a dilation and extraction, which means surgical instruments to crush and tear the unborn child. 0.74

01:20:32.600 Which Mississippi argued and Alito quoted them as saying is a barbaric practice.

01:20:39.580 This was all said by Allie Beth Stuckey when you came on my show when they argued this case.

01:20:46.580 Like, they heard you.

01:20:48.280 They heard these arguments.

01:20:50.940 And for the first time in 50 years, they appear to be listening.

01:20:56.760 You know, it's so important for us to talk about what we are actually discussing because you will notice that the pro-choice, pro-abortion side, there are people who are unashamedly pro-abortion.

01:21:09.900 There are organizations called Shout Your Abortion who really do believe that abortion is a moral good.

01:21:15.200 So when I say pro-abortion, I really mean that.

01:21:17.420 There are people on that side who are pro-abortion.

01:21:20.180 And it's so important to talk about what we mean when we say abortion because you'll notice that that side uses euphemisms.

01:21:26.920 They'll say things like reproductive rights or bodily autonomy or my body, my choice or reproductive justice or even the word abortion.

01:21:33.240 That's kind of a euphemism rather than talking about what is actually happening.

01:21:37.980 Or you'll notice on the Planned Parenthood site, they'll say pregnancy tissue is removed or the termination of a pregnancy.

01:21:43.980 They will do everything they can to avoid talking about what an abortion is and who an abortion kills.

01:21:49.980 And I think that's a really good indication that you are on the wrong side of something.

01:21:53.500 If the truth hurts your case, if the truth actually hinders your ability to persuade something, if you need lies and euphemisms to make your side more palatable and persuasive, that's a good indication that you're on the wrong side.

01:22:07.700 The pro-life side, even though it's taken as long as it has and it will continue to take a very long time to change hearts and minds, which is a main goal, we have the truth on our side.

01:22:17.060 All we have to do is say, this is what an abortion is, which you partly just described.

01:22:21.340 It is a brutal procedure.

01:22:22.960 It is a violent procedure.

01:22:24.640 And look, here's what fetal development is.

01:22:26.640 This is a human being.

01:22:28.080 Whether you think that human beings should have personhood rights, maybe that's a constitutional, legal, philosophical argument that we could have.

01:22:34.260 There's no scientific argument that this is a human being or not.

01:22:38.160 I simply believe that it is wrong in all cases to kill an innocent human being.

01:22:42.020 The people who are pro-choice don't believe that.

01:22:44.220 You believe that sometimes it's okay to kill an innocent human being.

01:22:47.260 And they should be forced, they should be pushed to be able to coherently and logically defend that.

01:22:54.780 They should really be on the defense.

01:22:56.740 They should be the ones that are forced to explain why it's okay to kill some human beings, innocent human beings, and not others.

01:23:02.560 And I think that's the position that we need to be in.

01:23:05.580 And there's a lot of comfort on our side, on the pro-life side, right now and forever, that the truth really does help us.

01:23:12.460 We don't have to rely on euphemisms to make our side seem right.

01:23:16.100 We truly believe that we are right because the truth is on our side.

01:23:19.360 Don't you think it's interesting to hear the same people who have been objecting to the use of the word woman?

01:23:26.560 Suddenly they got it.

01:23:28.000 Now they got it.

01:23:29.240 They're ready to talk about it.

01:23:30.420 And also, the point about your body, it's not your choice when it comes to the vaccine.

01:23:38.660 We can mandate you take the needle for the good of the public, the unknown, unnamed public.

01:23:44.420 But when somebody like you wants to say, well, let's talk about the good of the identifiable baby growing inside the womb, that, no.

01:23:53.400 Then it's my body, my choice entirely.

01:23:55.400 So there's been there's been a fair amount of hypocrisy in the narrative around these issues.

01:24:02.140 Yes, you know, it reminds me so much.

01:24:04.360 And this also kind of goes back to what you and Mr. Dershowitz were talking about in democratic norms, how democratic norms have been totally upended, at least in this case.

01:24:15.140 And it reminds me of when Democrats say that they care about democratic institutions and institutional integrity.

01:24:21.080 They care about democracy.

01:24:22.660 Really, they just mean protecting the things that they like.

01:24:26.400 When democratic processes don't go their way, then they will take authoritarian measures or at least suggest authoritarian measures, like trying to pack the court or trying to get rid of the filibuster to push through their will and to upend the democratic processes that we have and to try to throw off those checks and balances.

01:24:46.540 But when they do something like that, which I would consider authoritarian, they call that preserving democracy.

01:24:54.640 And it reminds me of what is also happening with the word autonomy.

01:24:58.140 What they mean by autonomy is them getting to do the things that they want to do, even if that hurts the rights of another individual, which in the case of abortion, it does hurt another individual's rights.

01:25:08.960 Of course, that's the whole thing.

01:25:10.140 It's not just your body.

01:25:11.620 You do have bodily autonomy.

01:25:12.540 You can decide if you want to reproduce.

01:25:15.180 And I know that there are cases of sexual assault and rape, but that accounts for, according to the Guttmacher Institute, which is a pro-choice research institute, less than 1% of all cases of abortion.

01:25:26.020 And if you talk to a pro-choicer, they're not interested in limiting abortion to those cases.

01:25:30.520 So it's just kind of like something they throw out there to try to manipulate you emotionally.

01:25:34.880 They're not interested in restricting abortion in that case. 0.69

01:25:37.160 But in the vast majority of cases of abortion, these are women who have chosen to engage in something that leads to pregnancy, that can lead to pregnancy.

01:25:46.640 You have bodily autonomy.

01:25:48.260 You have choice over your body.

01:25:50.260 But that starts before you create another human being.

01:25:53.020 After you've created another human being, then we have a responsibility to care for that person because they are a distinct human, just like you and me, with distinct DNA and therefore distinct worth.

01:26:03.400 Hmm. I'm thinking about the Supreme Court battle over Justice Kavanaugh and, you know, he was replacing another conservative, Anthony Kennedy, though, you know, Kennedy was unpredictable and could definitely side with the liberals on social issues and did.

01:26:21.300 Um, but he was replacing a conservative and all, every weapon they had was deployed against him to try to stop him.

01:26:30.020 And I'm sure he is feeling some pressure, right, to, to not be somebody who joins the majority because this is, this is really why they were so worried about him.

01:26:39.460 This is why the left really hated him.

01:26:41.100 I don't think the left really believed Blasey Ford or all these women who came forward.

01:26:45.120 Maybe Blasey Ford.

01:26:46.260 I don't know.

01:26:46.820 But it was so amorphous.

01:26:47.740 Who could know?

01:26:48.160 But I don't think they really thought he was a gang rapist.

01:26:51.520 It was all about trying to prevent him from joining this Alito majority opinion.

01:26:58.980 And that guy and these other five justices are having the weight of the world on them right now.

01:27:04.400 Yeah.

01:27:05.080 And I hope their spines are stiffened by this, that they, that their anger that this happened actually kind of motivates them to stand strong in whatever decision they've made,

01:27:15.540 rather than go the opposite.

01:27:18.240 I think that they now feel like maybe they have an even bigger burden right now of responsibility to try to protect the integrity of the, of the court.

01:27:27.360 They would be compromising, further compromising the integrity and the trustworthiness of the Supreme Court if they cave to public pressure.

01:27:34.180 I mean, that would just look really bad all around.

01:27:37.700 And so I'm hoping that they stay courageous.

01:27:40.160 But you're absolutely right.

01:27:41.300 It was all a political ploy.

01:27:43.700 Same thing with Amy Coney Barrett. 0.99

01:27:45.240 She wasn't, you know, she didn't receive quite as many attacks, but she went through the ringer as well.

01:27:51.260 It really is all about this.

01:27:53.520 She seems to have made a difference in this draft opinion, because if you read the opinion that they, Alito, writing for the majority, makes the point about how the burden that's on a woman who finds herself pregnant against her wishes in today's day and age is not the same as it used to be.

01:28:10.680 And they talk about, like, safe harbor laws where you're allowed to drop your baby off at a firehouse and you won't face charges and all of the Catholic charities and so on, all different ways of supporting women.

01:28:22.600 I realize that the pro-choice side is like, I don't want to be forced to give birth to a baby that I don't want.

01:28:27.120 And I don't want to live this life knowing that a child of mine is.

01:28:30.320 Look, but let me just pause.

01:28:32.040 Let me just pause right there.

01:28:33.480 Is that you're still giving birth.

01:28:35.440 I know that's, like, brutal to say, but you're still giving birth.

01:28:39.400 If you are giving birth to a living baby or a dead baby, the baby has to come out.

01:28:43.220 And so either way you go through, you go through birth.

01:28:48.100 And so people think, I know that you don't think that in pro-choice people don't necessarily think this, but it's almost like they believe that abortion is just like you wave a wand and the pregnancy goes away and nothing happens.

01:29:00.220 But either way you give birth to a baby, you either give birth to a dead baby or a living baby and women suffer trauma. 1.00

01:29:06.680 I know the pro-choice side doesn't want to talk about this, but there is trauma related to abortion, too.

01:29:11.360 I believe that women and children and society as a whole deserve so much better than abortion.

01:29:18.200 Yeah, I just don't find that to be a compelling argument at all.

01:29:21.000 You still have to go through something very traumatic.

01:29:23.060 It's a very interesting point.

01:29:23.880 I mean, I have found in my own experience that the women who I have known who are the most ardently pro-choice have had abortions.

01:29:33.400 And, you know, I just don't know if there's a piece of, like, wanting to feel validated, you know, and wanting to make sure that, like, what they've done isn't so atrocious that it gets ruled illegal.

01:29:45.460 You know what I mean?

01:29:46.040 Like, I think there's something psychological going on for some of the women who are pushing it, like, shout your abortion. 0.74

01:29:50.680 Who would name their group that?

01:29:52.880 You know, clearly somebody's looking for some sort of validation.

01:29:56.220 Even the Clintons said safe, legal, and rare and didn't want people shouting their abortion Gloria Steinem style on a T-shirt. 1.00

01:30:03.900 But anyway, so I think Amy Coney Barrett has had an influence on this decision because some of her logic and some of her reasoning is in that we heard her asking about at the oral argument has wound up in the piece.

01:30:16.320 And she replaced Ruth Bader Ginsburg. 0.97

01:30:19.440 And you remember how mad the liberals were at RBG, their hero, for dying and not retiring before Trump, you know, because she thought Hillary was going to win.

01:30:30.620 That was the report.

01:30:31.200 So, like, all these news stories that we've covered for a long time about the Supreme Court battles, I can see them all baked into this decision.

01:30:39.920 Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

01:30:41.760 I think that she did have an influence on it.

01:30:45.180 And I think that this is why they care so much about the courts.

01:30:50.360 I saw a tweet earlier that it seems like the left has just given up on the art of persuasion that they will use judicial fiat.

01:30:57.180 They will use all kinds of change of democratic norms just to kind of push their agenda down people's throats.

01:31:04.440 And that seems to be the case here.

01:31:05.740 And I think what we're going to see is a lot of intimidation, a lot of intimidation, not just of the justices, but of the public.

01:31:12.440 And I've already I already saw that I tweeted last night that I think the person who leaked this knew that the lives of the justices and their families would be threatened by people who were angry about this potential decision.

01:31:23.720 And I got blue checkmark journalists quote tweeting me, replying and saying, good, good. 0.62

01:31:29.100 They're glad that they're going to be intimidated.

01:31:30.620 They're glad that Amy Coney Barrett and Kavanaugh's young children, that their lives are going to be threatened.

01:31:35.640 You're telling me that you think that you're on the right side because you think it's justified for someone to murder someone else because that person doesn't think there's a constitutional right to murdering children.

01:31:45.960 I mean, it's wild.

01:31:47.000 It's wild.

01:31:47.540 But this really is it's become a sacrament for the left.

01:31:51.300 And that is they worship at the altar of it.

01:31:53.320 And that is why you were seeing the hysteria that you are.

01:31:56.020 God forbid.

01:31:56.860 God forbid something happened to one of the justices left or right between this.

01:32:00.900 That person, I hope, would never be able to live with himself again for leaking this.

01:32:06.380 And by the way, anybody thinking in the most conspiratorial, I'm thinking of like Pelican Brief by John Grisham.

01:32:12.680 You know, you think you're going to take out a Supreme Court justice and you're going to get a decision to go the other way.

01:32:17.220 You haven't you haven't seen the Republicans fight.

01:32:19.540 There would be no confirmation for any jurist to replace a jurist who was hurt in any way by an activist.

01:32:27.600 There will not be one. 0.94

01:32:29.160 So for the lunatics, they're going to need to guess again. 0.51

01:32:33.360 OK, but you raise the question of the leaker. 0.89

01:32:35.720 And I'm not going to say this person's name and I'm not going to I have no idea who leaked this and no one does.

01:32:41.260 But there's an interesting discussion happening about.

01:32:45.020 I mean, I think virtually everybody agrees it would have to be a law clerk.

01:32:47.960 The only people who have access to the decisions, as far as I'm told, and I was never a Supreme Court clerk, are the law clerks and the justices themselves.

01:32:56.960 And now does that mean a secretary doesn't see it on the printer?

01:32:59.820 You know, I can't speak to that.

01:33:01.900 But the odds are it's either a justice or a law clerk.

01:33:05.360 And I just can't I I just will never believe that a justice would do it.

01:33:08.380 I just I don't I don't believe it.

01:33:09.900 So there are rumblings about Sotomayor, who has a new clerk whose name we're not going to say.

01:33:18.780 But that clerk has been previously quoted in an article by the guy who broke this story, Josh Gerstein.

01:33:25.660 And to correct something I said earlier, Josh Gerstein is apparently the justice, the senior legal reporter for Politico.

01:33:32.760 The other byline on the case, there were two reporters, is the national security reporter.

01:33:36.860 So they did have at least one of their legal reporters on it.

01:33:40.680 OK, and apparently this clerk also led the efforts against Justice Kavanaugh while at this person's undergraduate institution or at their law school.

01:33:51.220 So we don't have any idea whether this is the person.

01:33:53.720 But can I tell you something, Ali Beth?

01:33:57.080 Quoted in an article by Josh Gerstein before is the best evidence I've heard so far.

01:34:02.120 If I could tell you the number of times I've figured out who somebody sources by looking back at other articles that person's written and seeing who they go to on this particular story or the storyline. 1.00

01:34:13.940 And sometimes reporters are so stupid. 0.99

01:34:16.240 They do it right in the very piece. 1.00

01:34:18.040 They're like, oh, Ali Beth Stuckey wouldn't comment.

01:34:22.020 But a pro-life advocate tells us that.

01:34:26.260 Right.

01:34:27.180 I right.

01:34:28.000 I'll give you the last word.

01:34:28.800 They didn't cover their tracks.

01:34:30.120 Yeah, potentially they potentially didn't cover their tracks.

01:34:32.660 And, you know, I'm like you, just like everyone else.

01:34:34.900 We don't know.

01:34:35.780 I've heard the same rumblings.

01:34:37.020 It was probably Sotomayor.

01:34:38.400 I've heard I have even heard the theory.

01:34:40.300 Again, this is a theory.

01:34:41.340 I do not know this, that Sotomayor may have.

01:34:44.760 I know you say that you don't believe that this could happen, but that Sotomayor may have known this, may have been a part of this.

01:34:52.700 Again, that is a theory.

01:34:53.760 People are kind of speculating and that's all we really can do right now.

01:34:58.300 And so I don't know.

01:34:59.460 I think we've seen from the Democrats and from the left that the in seem to justify the means for them.

01:35:03.600 I don't think anything is out of the realm of possibility, unfortunately.

01:35:07.080 Wow.

01:35:07.720 Unbelievable.

01:35:08.920 Ali Beth, listen, I'm happy for you, your side, all the advocates who have worked so tirelessly on this.

01:35:14.420 And I'm just thinking about the country and how we heal, how we get through this and how we keep things factual and stop the hysterical hyperbole about what this means.

01:35:23.100 You've been great.

01:35:24.180 What a day, right?

01:35:25.260 My gosh, what a day.

01:35:26.900 Some of my old conservative leaning legal pals have been writing me emails this morning saying they think the decision is stellar.

01:35:35.260 They're very, very happy with its reasoning, with how it was written, with the points being made, with its, you know, how solid it is in terms of, you know, realistically getting attacked and torn down.

01:35:47.800 Of course, the left is going to say what they're going to say.

01:35:49.320 But it's interesting just to get that reaction from people I know and trust and have for a long time.

01:35:55.200 Thank you for trusting us in a day like this.

01:35:57.080 Really appreciate it and want to tell you that we're going to have much, much more tomorrow, including Senator Josh Hawley.

01:36:02.100 He clerked for the U.S. Supreme Court.

01:36:03.480 He's got some strong feelings on a leaker, and we'll have thoughts on the decision as well.

01:36:07.900 And we'll bring you that and much, much more when we join you tomorrow.

01:36:10.680 In the meantime, download the show, The Megyn Kelly Show, on Apple, Pandora, Spotify, and Stitcher.

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01:36:32.180 with the former Attorney General of the United States.

01:36:34.720 That was cool, too.

01:36:35.520 What a great day to have him, and thanks to all of you for being part of it.

01:36:40.540 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. 0.94

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01:37:00.460 Thanks for talking to The Megyn Kelly, and I love you.

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The Megyn Kelly Show - May 03, 2022

Bombshell Leak Signals Roe Will Be Overturned, with Bill Barr, Allie Beth Stuckey and Alan Dershowitz ｜ Ep. 313

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