The Megyn Kelly Show - Bombshell Report on Masking Kids and Little House on the Prairie Tell-All, with David Zweig and Karen Grassle ｜ Ep. 224

00:00:00.000 When I found out my friend got a great deal

00:00:02.160 on a wool coat from Winners,

00:00:03.760 I started wondering,

00:00:05.440 is every fabulous item I see from Winners?

00:00:08.560 Like that woman over there with the designer jeans. 1.00

00:00:11.260 Are those from Winners?

00:00:12.780 Ooh, or those beautiful gold earrings.

00:00:15.260 Did she pay full price?

00:00:16.600 Or that leather tote?

00:00:17.620 Or that cashmere sweater?

00:00:18.500 Or those knee-high boots?

00:00:20.300 That dress?

00:00:21.080 That jacket?

00:00:21.740 Those shoes?

00:00:22.780 Is anyone paying full price for anything?

00:00:25.800 Stop wondering.

00:00:27.000 Start winning.

00:00:27.920 Winners.

00:00:28.520 Find fabulous for less.

00:00:30.620 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:32.520 Your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:41.980 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:00:43.720 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:45.680 We've got a great show for you today.

00:00:47.060 And happy Friday.

00:00:48.600 It is Friday, right?

00:00:49.660 You kind of forget.

00:00:50.920 I'm really excited for both of our hours.

00:00:53.580 It's kind of a hard turn after the first 60 minutes.

00:00:56.720 We're going to get to David Zweig of New York Magazine

00:00:58.720 and The Atlantic and many other places in just a minute

00:01:01.460 with his exclusive reporting on the CDC's dishonesty.

00:01:06.100 All right, that's my word.

00:01:07.720 His lack of transparency.

00:01:10.380 And our second hour,

00:01:12.440 we have someone exciting coming on.

00:01:14.700 Karen Grassley from Little House on the Prairie is here.

00:01:18.240 Yes, it's my dream.

00:01:19.120 She just released a tell-all book,

00:01:21.520 and there's so much to go over in this book with her.

00:01:24.400 You would not believe what she says about Michael Landon,

00:01:26.220 what she says about an affair she had with which character on the show.

00:01:31.040 Oh, my goodness.

00:01:32.200 If you were a fan of the show, you're going to love this.

00:01:34.580 Okay, so we'll get to the fun stuff in about an hour.

00:01:37.120 First, we've got to start with some business.

00:01:39.540 And that's where we start with a very simple but disturbing question

00:01:43.540 about whether the Biden administration is being transparent,

00:01:46.340 is being honest, and is following the science.

00:01:49.300 In the mandates, it's handing down and recommending,

00:01:52.180 in particular when it comes to masks.

00:01:54.220 At least that's the focus today.

00:01:55.340 A troubling new report from The Atlantic by David Zweig

00:01:58.660 on masking and kids just out.

00:02:02.120 And it raises serious doubts about the CDC's transparency.

00:02:06.240 Earlier this year, the CDC widely promoted.

00:02:09.220 Rochelle Walensky touted a study out of Arizona

00:02:14.060 that suggested mask requirements in schools in particular

00:02:18.440 had a dramatic impact, really, really helped stop COVID outbreaks.

00:02:24.020 This moment, make no mistake about it,

00:02:27.920 is being used by maybe your school, my school,

00:02:31.640 and other schools all around the country

00:02:33.120 as the reason your child has a mask over his face all day.

00:02:37.640 All right?

00:02:38.100 So this is an important moment.

00:02:40.280 The author, the journalist, David Zweig,

00:02:42.720 he's both conducted a months-long investigation

00:02:45.160 into this study so beloved by Rochelle Walensky

00:02:48.480 and has concluded with the help of some eight or nine experts

00:02:52.740 that it is, in his words, quote,

00:02:55.740 profoundly misleading.

00:02:57.580 David is back with us now to talk about his latest reporting.

00:03:00.540 David, great to see you.

00:03:01.460 So let's just, before we get to your research,

00:03:05.460 set the stage for us on,

00:03:06.900 you just sort of opened the piece by saying,

00:03:08.500 when they approved the vaccines for five to 11-year-olds,

00:03:12.380 many of us, I know I did,

00:03:14.360 heaved a little bit of a sigh of relief thinking,

00:03:16.280 oh, okay, at least the masks can come off.

00:03:20.120 The mask will come off.

00:03:22.260 Guess again.

00:03:23.420 And you compare how the United States is with its children

00:03:26.580 in the pandemic versus other countries.

00:03:28.880 Let's start there.

00:03:30.200 Yeah, there were a number of experts

00:03:32.700 who started pointing out once they approved,

00:03:35.900 once the FDA approved the vaccine for five to 11-year-olds,

00:03:40.200 that this would be kind of,

00:03:41.840 here's the line where we draw in the sand.

00:03:43.560 Even the people who are really pretty staunch pro-mask

00:03:48.380 or pro-other mitigation measures,

00:03:50.460 they said, look, now that the kids

00:03:52.320 have the opportunity to be vaccinated,

00:03:54.460 once X amount of weeks go by or months

00:03:57.560 where everyone's had the opportunity to do so,

00:04:00.240 that's it.

00:04:00.820 It's time to start unwinding some of these things.

00:04:03.860 I should point out, by the way,

00:04:05.240 that even children who are unvaccinated

00:04:08.800 are at lower risk of hospitalization and severe disease

00:04:12.780 than many vaccinated adults.

00:04:16.060 That's huge.

00:04:16.920 Not every expert was saying

00:04:19.560 that we had to pin this on that.

00:04:22.240 But nevertheless, just want to get that a little bit.

00:04:23.780 But wait, wait, wait, wait.

00:04:24.380 I do, and I'm going to let you finish your point,

00:04:25.980 but we don't spend enough time on that

00:04:27.560 because we see all the kids sitting outside

00:04:29.940 eating their lunch in 39-degree weather.

00:04:33.120 And then you see the grown-ups,

00:04:34.740 Kathy Hochul, the governor of New York,

00:04:36.480 many other officials,

00:04:37.960 maskless inside, enjoying their meal

00:04:40.280 right next to somebody,

00:04:41.480 and we say, this is BS.

00:04:43.420 And the response you always get is,

00:04:45.620 oh, hello, it's called a vaccine.

00:04:47.560 That's the difference.

00:04:48.500 She's been vaccinated.

00:04:49.460 Your kids haven't.

00:04:50.620 And number one,

00:04:51.680 a lot of the kids have been vaccinated

00:04:53.180 who are forced to sit outside on those buckets.

00:04:55.580 But number two,

00:04:56.840 your point just out,

00:04:58.140 even unvaccinated,

00:04:59.720 those kids are less likely to contract

00:05:01.580 and spread COVID

00:05:02.260 than a vaccinated grown-up is,

00:05:04.740 like Kathy Hochul. 0.77

00:05:06.500 That's correct.

00:05:07.320 The age stratification of risk

00:05:09.260 is so extraordinary.

00:05:11.380 It's hard to even visualize

00:05:13.320 or process for most people.

00:05:14.980 So it's understandable,

00:05:16.180 perhaps, that a lot of parents would think,

00:05:17.980 hey, I need my kids vaccinated.

00:05:19.580 I understand kids are at lower risk.

00:05:21.500 You know, that message kind of made it through.

00:05:24.500 But nevertheless,

00:05:25.820 they still needed that security

00:05:27.340 of the vaccination for them.

00:05:28.780 So I could see why people

00:05:30.240 had been thinking that.

00:05:31.580 But the fact of the matter is,

00:05:32.680 the data simply show otherwise,

00:05:35.140 which is that even unvaccinated children,

00:05:37.440 there's really excellent data

00:05:39.040 out of the UK on this.

00:05:40.400 And we see some data on this as well

00:05:42.720 in the states and different places

00:05:44.620 that it's very clear

00:05:46.020 that even unvaccinated kids,

00:05:48.000 particularly unvaccinated,

00:05:49.160 healthy children statistically

00:05:50.380 are still at a far lower risk

00:05:52.480 of severe disease or hospitalization

00:05:54.420 than many vaccinated adults

00:05:57.080 once you get past a certain age.

00:05:58.760 So we should just kind of

00:05:59.900 clear that up right now

00:06:01.180 that to my mind

00:06:02.400 and that of many experts,

00:06:03.780 we shouldn't be pinning any of this

00:06:05.340 on child vaccination

00:06:06.500 simply because the risk for them,

00:06:08.960 even while they're unvaccinated,

00:06:10.460 is still less than the adults.

00:06:13.340 And the fact of the matter is

00:06:14.480 that I think you pointed out

00:06:15.540 that you have adults

00:06:17.600 who are, you know,

00:06:19.280 in New York State, for example,

00:06:20.420 who have the liberty

00:06:21.360 of eating in a restaurant

00:06:22.700 without a mask,

00:06:23.620 who have the liberty

00:06:24.280 of conducting their lives

00:06:26.060 in a relatively normal way,

00:06:27.940 yet the children in school

00:06:29.120 don't have that same liberty.

00:06:30.880 And you cannot pin that

00:06:32.780 on the notion of vaccination

00:06:34.100 because the statistics

00:06:35.880 simply show otherwise.

00:06:38.140 So the United States

00:06:39.320 is cracking down on its children

00:06:41.020 in a particularly aggressive way.

00:06:44.600 And, you know, to many of us,

00:06:45.560 it feels cruel and abusive.

00:06:48.000 And they continue to do so

00:06:50.000 no matter what,

00:06:51.160 no matter what the data show,

00:06:52.220 they just continue to mask them.

00:06:53.920 Now it's mandatory vaccinations.

00:06:55.680 The L.A. Unified School District

00:06:56.940 has just had to postpone its mandate

00:06:58.920 on vaccinations

00:07:00.060 because some 30,000 children

00:07:02.300 hadn't gotten it.

00:07:03.920 So it was like,

00:07:04.520 they're not doing it.

00:07:05.800 Parents are reluctant.

00:07:07.300 They don't want to go first.

00:07:08.380 A lot of parents have reluctance

00:07:09.800 when it comes to their young ones.

00:07:12.180 So that's where we stand

00:07:14.040 with respect to the children.

00:07:15.140 America is doing it 0.64

00:07:16.080 in a really aggressive

00:07:17.260 and I think unkind and cruel way.

00:07:20.580 So enter the second piece of this,

00:07:23.160 which is, well, the science,

00:07:26.660 the science.

00:07:27.480 I mean, we don't mean to be cruel.

00:07:29.280 We don't mean to be more stringent

00:07:30.780 than the other countries.

00:07:31.980 But the science says

00:07:33.420 this is going to keep your kids safe.

00:07:35.480 It's going to keep your kid

00:07:36.520 from bringing COVID home to grandma.

00:07:39.580 And that is why we have to put the cloth

00:07:41.600 over their face all day long.

00:07:44.080 And they have been citing,

00:07:46.620 in particular,

00:07:48.100 this one study from where?

00:07:50.480 Right.

00:07:52.580 So what my feature

00:07:53.680 in The Atlantic focused on

00:07:55.680 was this particular study

00:07:56.980 that was conducted in Arizona.

00:07:59.020 Roughly a thousand schools there

00:08:00.900 and they compared schools

00:08:02.860 that had mask mandates in place 0.57

00:08:05.360 from the beginning of the school year

00:08:06.600 to schools that didn't have mask mandates.

00:08:09.620 And the takeaway finding from the study

00:08:12.060 was that the schools

00:08:13.320 without the mask mandates

00:08:14.940 had three and a half times

00:08:17.180 more outbreaks

00:08:18.780 than during the study period

00:08:20.320 than the schools

00:08:21.060 with mask mandates.

00:08:22.560 So this was, you know,

00:08:23.800 a really startling statistic

00:08:25.800 and it's something

00:08:26.520 that was covered widely.

00:08:28.320 It was in every major media outlet

00:08:30.860 in the country.

00:08:32.000 And Rochelle Walensky,

00:08:32.900 the director of the CDC,

00:08:35.240 was on television talking about it.

00:08:37.280 She did mention it multiple times

00:08:39.280 in White House briefings

00:08:40.500 over and over and over again.

00:08:42.360 You keep kept hearing this statistic

00:08:44.060 three and a half times.

00:08:46.240 And that's kind of where I begin my story.

00:08:49.020 All right.

00:08:49.600 So we have her.

00:08:50.520 She went on, as you point out in your piece,

00:08:51.760 she went on CBS Face the Nation.

00:08:53.300 She went to the White House briefing.

00:08:54.640 She tweeted it out.

00:08:55.860 She went back on TV in October.

00:08:57.480 She was on,

00:08:58.000 this is the soundbite with Chris Hayes

00:08:59.640 of MSNBC in late September.

00:09:01.960 Here is her message.

00:09:03.280 You know, the big finding

00:09:05.660 is that masks in school work.

00:09:07.600 We've only had in some school districts

00:09:09.580 about six weeks of school.

00:09:11.520 And we've already had

00:09:12.600 in a different study

00:09:13.700 that was published today,

00:09:14.840 over 1,800 schools closed.

00:09:17.480 Nearly a million children

00:09:18.940 have been out of school

00:09:20.100 because of school closures.

00:09:21.720 But the study that you're referring to

00:09:23.140 in Arizona demonstrated

00:09:24.840 that schools that had masks

00:09:26.660 were three and a half times

00:09:28.140 less likely to have a school outbreak

00:09:30.780 than schools that didn't have masks.

00:09:33.280 Just as a follow-up,

00:09:34.980 are we sure that's not a correlation issue

00:09:38.000 and not a causation,

00:09:39.020 which is to say, like,

00:09:40.420 there's higher levels

00:09:41.460 of community transmission

00:09:42.580 in the school districts

00:09:43.900 that are also the ones most inclined

00:09:46.040 to not have a masking policy?

00:09:48.220 See what I'm saying?

00:09:49.980 Yeah.

00:09:50.540 No, and that's actually been studied as well.

00:09:53.040 And we've examined those correlations

00:09:54.720 for exactly the concern you raised.

00:09:56.600 This is an independent effect of masks.

00:10:00.500 Wow.

00:10:01.380 Go ahead, David.

00:10:01.920 I hadn't seen that interview.

00:10:04.500 That is astonishing.

00:10:06.340 The study uses the word association.

00:10:09.700 So unless I misunderstood

00:10:10.680 what she just said,

00:10:12.020 she seemed to be implying

00:10:13.060 that it wasn't merely an association,

00:10:15.480 but rather something causal.

00:10:17.960 And a number of experts

00:10:19.480 would beg to differ.

00:10:21.440 So, but boy,

00:10:23.160 I'm still kind of taking it in

00:10:24.820 from that interview.

00:10:25.500 I mean, that really exemplifies

00:10:28.540 kind of the broader thesis

00:10:30.220 of my feature

00:10:31.680 and kind of the larger idea

00:10:33.900 that the CDC

00:10:35.040 really has doubled down on,

00:10:38.600 and we see this in a variety of areas,

00:10:40.440 but specifically with masks.

00:10:42.400 The evidence is incredibly shaky.

00:10:45.720 We don't know.

00:10:46.700 I'm not definitively saying

00:10:47.880 they don't work.

00:10:48.700 What I am saying is,

00:10:51.200 it's by me saying

00:10:52.440 from what all the experts

00:10:54.620 I interview are saying

00:10:55.660 is that the evidence

00:10:56.940 simply does not say

00:10:59.060 what the CDC is suggesting.

00:11:01.120 And again,

00:11:01.760 the language in this study itself,

00:11:04.700 they specifically use

00:11:05.700 the word association.

00:11:07.420 Another one of the big studies

00:11:08.920 which I had written about before,

00:11:10.360 the authors of that study

00:11:11.620 similarly say,

00:11:13.000 this is not meant

00:11:14.960 to infer causality.

00:11:16.940 So, this is,

00:11:18.020 these are important

00:11:18.880 nuanced words here.

00:11:20.340 Explain that for those of us

00:11:21.520 who are only paying

00:11:23.100 half attention to this.

00:11:24.120 What are you saying right now?

00:11:26.060 Okay.

00:11:26.680 So, I mean,

00:11:28.380 basically,

00:11:29.580 many things happen

00:11:30.580 when you're doing a study

00:11:31.560 in the real world,

00:11:32.740 and the magic

00:11:33.920 is being able to tease out

00:11:35.800 what are sort of

00:11:37.360 these confounders

00:11:38.380 or these variables

00:11:39.320 that might be influencing

00:11:40.480 something you're seeing

00:11:41.460 versus what are the actual cause.

00:11:44.300 So, that's causal

00:11:45.280 versus just an association.

00:11:47.720 We might see that

00:11:49.380 kids in school

00:11:50.840 have fewer cases

00:11:52.520 of the flu,

00:11:54.060 and they are all wearing masks,

00:11:57.080 the windows are open,

00:11:58.040 and they're running HEPA filters,

00:11:59.520 but they also are all

00:12:00.560 wearing sneakers.

00:12:01.440 And we say,

00:12:02.060 look, by wearing sneakers,

00:12:03.800 that reduces the case

00:12:06.020 incidence of the flu.

00:12:07.760 It's not a perfect analogy,

00:12:09.100 but it's the point that

00:12:10.380 we don't necessarily know

00:12:11.720 what's causal.

00:12:12.800 So, that's one element of this.

00:12:14.180 But that's really

00:12:14.800 kind of the tip

00:12:15.760 of the proverbial iceberg

00:12:16.880 regarding this study,

00:12:18.560 which was why I became

00:12:19.440 so fascinated with it

00:12:20.680 and began investigating it.

00:12:22.700 Mm-hmm.

00:12:22.960 And she seems to be saying

00:12:24.360 in that soundbite

00:12:25.040 with Chris Hayes,

00:12:26.140 no, the masks,

00:12:27.340 they are the cause.

00:12:28.760 The absence of masks,

00:12:30.000 that's what caused

00:12:30.960 the COVID outbreaks

00:12:31.840 or the other alternative,

00:12:33.520 that's what prevented them.

00:12:36.360 She seemed to be suggesting that.

00:12:38.260 Yeah, I hadn't seen

00:12:38.940 that interview before.

00:12:39.960 I'm going to watch it again

00:12:40.800 after we talk

00:12:42.380 because I'm quite curious about it.

00:12:44.920 But so,

00:12:46.360 the main, you know,

00:12:47.940 sort of soundbite

00:12:48.780 is this three and a half times

00:12:50.180 that she mentioned there.

00:12:51.180 And I linked to a handful

00:12:52.240 of other times

00:12:52.880 where she mentioned it.

00:12:54.100 And the thing is,

00:12:56.020 there's really nothing

00:12:57.580 in this study

00:12:58.540 to support that finding.

00:13:00.740 And I try to methodically

00:13:02.680 run through the reasons why.

00:13:05.220 And now, look,

00:13:06.760 every study can be critiqued

00:13:08.960 no matter what you publish.

00:13:10.680 And that's appropriate.

00:13:11.700 You know, other experts

00:13:12.660 in whatever field

00:13:13.340 are going to look at it.

00:13:14.520 And this study is not,

00:13:15.720 you know, removed

00:13:16.340 from that same scenario.

00:13:18.480 What they mentioned

00:13:19.640 in the study itself

00:13:20.500 is that they did not control

00:13:22.000 for vaccine status

00:13:23.640 of the staff or students.

00:13:24.960 That's amazing.

00:13:25.680 That of course is,

00:13:26.440 that has an enormous impact

00:13:28.740 on things.

00:13:30.960 But, and there's that,

00:13:32.460 there's a whole other

00:13:33.280 long list of things, Megan,

00:13:34.560 that they actually,

00:13:35.620 which again,

00:13:36.140 this is normal

00:13:37.040 to have limitations

00:13:38.020 in a study.

00:13:38.800 That is typical

00:13:39.860 and people can discuss

00:13:41.060 those methodological limitations.

00:13:44.100 And that's fair.

00:13:45.560 To me,

00:13:46.220 what really caught my attention

00:13:47.580 and what I became

00:13:48.760 so engaged with

00:13:50.480 were the things

00:13:51.500 that they didn't disclose

00:13:53.120 in the study.

00:13:53.980 Those are the things

00:13:54.640 that the experts on Twitter

00:13:55.800 and wherever else

00:13:56.600 weren't commenting on

00:13:57.960 because they didn't know.

00:13:59.700 And the first one

00:14:00.980 that you took a look at

00:14:01.960 is when were the schools

00:14:04.240 open,

00:14:05.040 the schools where

00:14:05.780 the kids wore the masks,

00:14:07.540 when and for how long

00:14:08.580 were they open

00:14:09.460 and when and for how long

00:14:11.040 were the schools

00:14:11.560 where the kids

00:14:12.240 did wear the masks open?

00:14:14.800 Right.

00:14:15.440 So the study says

00:14:16.440 it ran from July 15th

00:14:18.440 to August 31st.

00:14:19.580 So any regular person

00:14:21.700 would assume,

00:14:22.380 okay, that means

00:14:23.180 all the schools

00:14:24.260 are being studied

00:14:24.980 for roughly six weeks

00:14:26.200 from July 15th

00:14:27.140 to August 31st.

00:14:28.400 But I started looking

00:14:29.520 at the calendars

00:14:30.460 for some of these schools

00:14:31.460 and I thought,

00:14:32.060 that's weird.

00:14:33.300 I'm seeing a whole bunch

00:14:34.240 of schools

00:14:34.660 that aren't opening

00:14:35.540 until August.

00:14:36.840 And eventually I ran through

00:14:38.020 and it turns out

00:14:39.040 almost 90% of the schools

00:14:40.980 weren't even open in July.

00:14:42.880 So how could you say

00:14:44.080 a study went from

00:14:45.240 July 15th

00:14:46.260 to August 31st

00:14:47.760 when close to 85%

00:14:49.880 or 90%

00:14:50.580 didn't even open

00:14:51.540 in the month of July?

00:14:53.400 So this was something

00:14:54.200 that was really worrisome

00:14:55.540 because what it does

00:14:57.060 is that suggests

00:14:58.320 a robustness

00:14:59.360 that wasn't there.

00:15:00.760 It suggests

00:15:01.180 a certain time frame.

00:15:02.260 We looked at them

00:15:02.940 for this long time frame

00:15:04.380 when actually

00:15:04.920 the time frame

00:15:05.640 was truncated heavily

00:15:07.660 for many of the schools.

00:15:10.120 In addition to that-

00:15:10.320 It wasn't six weeks.

00:15:11.240 It was more like four weeks

00:15:12.300 or three and a half weeks.

00:15:13.640 Okay, yeah, I got it.

00:15:14.320 Right.

00:15:14.720 And not only is it

00:15:15.700 in the study,

00:15:16.500 but this is something

00:15:17.160 that Rochelle Walensky

00:15:18.600 mentioned multiple times

00:15:20.280 in her public statements

00:15:21.280 talking about

00:15:21.820 these schools began in July.

00:15:23.600 One of the authors

00:15:24.360 in an interview

00:15:25.000 to the New York Times

00:15:25.900 talked about

00:15:26.360 we have this great advantage

00:15:27.680 with our study here in Arizona.

00:15:29.680 The schools are beginning in July

00:15:30.960 and it just simply

00:15:32.120 was not the case

00:15:33.520 for, you know,

00:15:34.840 80 plus percent

00:15:36.260 of the schools.

00:15:37.000 It simply wasn't true.

00:15:38.500 And then when you look

00:15:39.180 at the dates

00:15:39.900 and here's where things

00:15:40.980 begin to get more interesting

00:15:43.020 is that the schools

00:15:46.180 in the study,

00:15:47.740 you get an indication

00:15:49.000 that the study

00:15:50.140 looked at two counties,

00:15:51.680 something called

00:15:52.140 Maricopa County

00:15:53.240 and Pima County.

00:15:54.720 And the schools

00:15:55.760 in Maricopa appear

00:15:56.980 when you look

00:15:57.480 at the tables

00:15:58.060 in the study,

00:15:58.660 they appeared

00:15:59.260 to be more associated

00:16:01.640 with being the schools

00:16:03.180 disproportionately

00:16:03.880 those without mask mandates.

00:16:05.880 And when I was looking

00:16:06.700 at these school calendars,

00:16:07.980 I was like,

00:16:08.480 huh,

00:16:09.040 I noticed

00:16:09.980 that also

00:16:10.860 those schools

00:16:11.620 happen to be the ones

00:16:12.540 that appear to be

00:16:13.500 more often

00:16:14.420 to be opening earlier.

00:16:16.020 So what does that suggest?

00:16:17.580 It suggests

00:16:18.540 that

00:16:19.400 these schools

00:16:21.040 without mask mandates

00:16:22.980 possibly

00:16:23.740 were looked at

00:16:25.220 for a longer period of time.

00:16:26.400 but that seemed

00:16:27.000 not possible.

00:16:27.860 How could they possibly

00:16:28.560 do this in the study?

00:16:29.480 So I emailed

00:16:30.180 with the corresponding

00:16:32.120 author

00:16:32.620 on the study

00:16:33.720 and I said,

00:16:35.160 hey,

00:16:35.400 I've been looking

00:16:35.840 at the calendars.

00:16:36.700 I know your study

00:16:37.300 says it runs

00:16:38.020 from July 15th

00:16:39.040 to August 31st,

00:16:39.860 but I'm seeing

00:16:40.860 a whole bunch

00:16:41.340 of schools

00:16:41.760 that on their

00:16:42.360 official calendar

00:16:43.300 says they weren't

00:16:43.880 even open

00:16:44.300 until August 10th.

00:16:46.220 And to my amazement,

00:16:47.940 she did confirm,

00:16:49.220 yes,

00:16:49.620 there were many

00:16:50.240 different start dates.

00:16:51.600 Many of the schools

00:16:52.320 in the study

00:16:52.960 did not run

00:16:54.220 for the full six weeks.

00:16:55.820 And ultimately,

00:16:56.240 what we found

00:16:57.040 was that

00:16:57.860 there were schools,

00:16:59.000 I think you just

00:16:59.460 mentioned this,

00:17:00.000 Megan,

00:17:00.280 that were only open

00:17:01.220 for three weeks.

00:17:02.060 So we have some schools

00:17:02.960 that are open for six

00:17:04.000 and some that are open

00:17:05.260 for three,

00:17:06.060 double the length

00:17:07.380 of time

00:17:07.920 that they're looking

00:17:08.580 at this.

00:17:09.420 And here's where

00:17:09.900 the kicker is.

00:17:10.900 She did acknowledge

00:17:11.860 to me

00:17:12.320 that the schools

00:17:13.580 without mask mandates

00:17:15.340 were studied

00:17:16.180 for a longer period

00:17:17.520 of time.

00:17:18.040 So I just want

00:17:19.660 that to sink in.

00:17:21.380 This is an invisible

00:17:22.740 thumb on the scale.

00:17:25.000 No one knew about this

00:17:26.140 except me

00:17:26.680 because I looked

00:17:27.300 at the calendars.

00:17:28.400 But all the media reports,

00:17:30.020 all the stuff

00:17:30.720 just saying,

00:17:31.620 oh, three and a half times.

00:17:32.480 It's a study.

00:17:33.100 It went for six weeks.

00:17:34.560 This is epidemiology 101.

00:17:36.860 You can't compare

00:17:38.200 two different groups

00:17:39.580 looking for the incidence

00:17:41.120 of something

00:17:41.660 but have one group

00:17:42.900 that you're looking at

00:17:43.860 for a longer period

00:17:45.140 of time.

00:17:46.020 I mean,

00:17:46.480 any,

00:17:46.880 you know,

00:17:47.120 a fifth grader

00:17:48.180 could understand

00:17:49.120 this concept.

00:17:50.620 Now,

00:17:50.860 I need to mention

00:17:51.660 the authors claim

00:17:53.660 that even though

00:17:55.100 they looked at schools

00:17:56.240 for a longer period

00:17:57.960 of time

00:17:58.880 without mask mandates

00:18:01.340 that they said

00:18:02.180 that wasn't

00:18:02.680 a meaningful difference

00:18:03.880 and that it wouldn't

00:18:04.720 affect the outcome.

00:18:06.040 But here's the thing.

00:18:07.540 According to multiple experts

00:18:08.980 who I talk with

00:18:09.720 and who I,

00:18:10.380 you know,

00:18:10.680 cite in my article,

00:18:11.940 they said very clearly

00:18:13.480 if you're looking

00:18:14.340 at one group

00:18:14.960 longer than the other,

00:18:15.920 you must adjust

00:18:17.040 for that.

00:18:17.660 You can't just like

00:18:18.600 put it in there

00:18:19.440 and not do

00:18:20.000 a special calculation

00:18:21.060 to equalize things.

00:18:23.200 And that also

00:18:23.660 should be disclosed

00:18:24.780 in the paper.

00:18:26.200 But there's no way

00:18:27.360 to know

00:18:28.060 that their defense,

00:18:29.520 that they're saying,

00:18:30.200 oh, no, no, no,

00:18:30.660 this doesn't matter

00:18:31.380 because they've refused

00:18:32.700 to share the data set

00:18:34.280 with me

00:18:34.740 over and over

00:18:36.260 and over again.

00:18:37.160 I kept asking for it

00:18:38.240 and they refused

00:18:39.380 to share their data set

00:18:40.960 that they used

00:18:41.500 for the study.

00:18:41.720 What do you mean

00:18:42.100 by data set?

00:18:43.660 Okay.

00:18:44.340 So any study

00:18:45.840 looks at,

00:18:46.500 you know,

00:18:46.780 a pile of data,

00:18:48.400 so to speak.

00:18:49.340 So for this study,

00:18:50.040 they looked at outbreaks,

00:18:51.780 the number of schools,

00:18:53.520 the enrollment sizes

00:18:54.660 in the schools

00:18:55.360 and their mask policies.

00:18:57.280 So that those

00:18:58.820 are important pieces

00:18:59.880 of data

00:19:00.820 to keep track of.

00:19:02.060 There is no way

00:19:04.060 to know,

00:19:05.040 to verify

00:19:05.720 any of the findings

00:19:07.120 in this study

00:19:07.840 unless you see

00:19:08.840 all those pieces

00:19:09.820 of data.

00:19:10.820 Now,

00:19:11.380 ultimately,

00:19:12.440 after they beat me up

00:19:13.540 for a month or so

00:19:14.540 and I eventually did

00:19:15.840 a public records request

00:19:17.320 where I compelled

00:19:18.380 the state of Arizona

00:19:19.380 to send me 1.00

00:19:20.080 the damn list of schools, 1.00

00:19:21.680 I was able to force 1.00

00:19:22.800 one thing,

00:19:23.320 which was getting

00:19:23.920 the actual list of schools.

00:19:25.640 But no one

00:19:26.740 actually has the data

00:19:28.180 on the number

00:19:29.360 of outbreaks

00:19:30.040 and the enrollment sizes

00:19:31.540 or the mask policies.

00:19:33.340 No one can see it.

00:19:34.560 So when I emailed

00:19:35.500 back and forth

00:19:36.320 with the authors,

00:19:37.240 and by the way,

00:19:38.300 I looped in,

00:19:39.460 like,

00:19:39.820 five different people

00:19:41.140 at MMWR,

00:19:43.140 which is the CDC's

00:19:44.340 official journal

00:19:45.160 who published this study.

00:19:46.920 I brought in

00:19:47.500 the editor-in-chief.

00:19:48.480 I had a list of people

00:19:49.500 on these email exchanges

00:19:50.540 and they all

00:19:52.060 backed up the idea.

00:19:53.220 They wrote,

00:19:53.920 you can read the quote

00:19:55.100 if you have it.

00:19:56.140 They essentially said,

00:19:57.280 there are no errors.

00:19:59.680 And I wrote back,

00:20:00.940 I said,

00:20:01.440 no offense,

00:20:02.700 but I can't just

00:20:03.740 take your word for this.

00:20:04.880 How can anyone

00:20:05.540 know this to be true

00:20:07.000 when I'm seeing,

00:20:08.460 I'm literally telling you

00:20:10.200 and your lead author

00:20:11.740 has acknowledged to me

00:20:13.260 that there are

00:20:13.900 different start dates.

00:20:15.060 This is totally different

00:20:16.420 from what's written

00:20:17.400 in the study itself,

00:20:18.640 totally different

00:20:19.300 from what you've all

00:20:19.980 been saying publicly

00:20:20.780 about when the schools begin.

00:20:22.780 We don't know

00:20:23.920 what happened

00:20:24.860 because you won't share.

00:20:25.940 And they said,

00:20:26.720 yeah,

00:20:27.500 we're good.

00:20:28.320 We're not sending you anything.

00:20:30.140 Wow.

00:20:31.180 This isn't like,

00:20:32.220 you know,

00:20:32.760 Tucker Carlson calling up

00:20:33.920 and asking for the data,

00:20:35.040 right?

00:20:35.200 This is the Atlantic.

00:20:35.860 They don't want a bad piece

00:20:37.320 for them in the Atlantic.

00:20:38.280 So there must have been

00:20:39.340 a good reason for them.

00:20:40.740 Not good in our view,

00:20:42.000 but good for them

00:20:42.680 not to send it to you.

00:20:44.440 Just a quick follow up,

00:20:45.480 though.

00:20:46.080 If one of the things

00:20:48.100 in the data set

00:20:49.360 that they won't give you

00:20:51.080 is the number of children

00:20:52.540 enrolled in the classes,

00:20:55.140 then it could have,

00:20:56.540 it could be a situation

00:20:57.560 where there were

00:20:58.880 many more children,

00:21:00.140 possibly,

00:21:01.040 in the classes

00:21:02.520 where people were not

00:21:03.700 masked by mandate.

00:21:05.380 versus the classes

00:21:07.200 where the kids

00:21:07.840 did have to wear masks.

00:21:08.900 So you could have

00:21:09.440 a smattering

00:21:09.920 in one classroom

00:21:11.860 wearing their masks

00:21:12.660 and then double that size

00:21:14.180 in a classroom

00:21:15.160 without their masks.

00:21:17.380 That's exactly right.

00:21:18.560 You know,

00:21:18.720 this is all conjecture.

00:21:20.060 You can look at clues

00:21:21.940 from the information

00:21:22.720 they do give you

00:21:23.460 in the study.

00:21:24.000 They break the schools

00:21:25.100 into four population categories.

00:21:28.260 But from the experts

00:21:29.340 I spoke with,

00:21:30.180 that is not nearly

00:21:31.120 precise enough

00:21:31.980 to adjust

00:21:33.180 for different enrollments.

00:21:34.240 Now, remember,

00:21:35.240 imagine you have

00:21:36.220 a school without

00:21:37.000 a mask mandate

00:21:37.860 that's looked at

00:21:39.240 for, say,

00:21:40.340 two days longer

00:21:41.180 than a school

00:21:41.860 with a mask mandate.

00:21:43.140 But if that school

00:21:44.040 without a mask mandate

00:21:45.400 has triple

00:21:47.160 the number of students

00:21:48.200 in it,

00:21:48.520 maybe that's a huge school

00:21:49.640 with 2,000 students

00:21:51.140 and the other one,

00:21:52.500 you know,

00:21:52.840 only has,

00:21:53.520 you know,

00:21:54.480 600 students

00:21:55.440 or something like that.

00:21:56.720 Those two days,

00:21:57.900 in effect,

00:21:58.860 become six days

00:22:00.300 for actual

00:22:01.560 per-person

00:22:02.400 exposure time

00:22:03.880 that you're looking at

00:22:04.560 because in the end,

00:22:05.220 that's what we're looking at.

00:22:06.400 So again,

00:22:06.980 the image I think of

00:22:08.360 is there really was

00:22:09.060 this invisible thumb

00:22:10.580 on the scale.

00:22:11.560 And had they

00:22:12.080 disclosed this,

00:22:14.180 now people could

00:22:14.880 then argue about it

00:22:15.880 and say something publicly

00:22:17.700 and push for things.

00:22:19.020 But to me,

00:22:19.620 the thing that bothered me

00:22:20.680 so much

00:22:21.280 was that,

00:22:22.340 at least to me

00:22:23.160 and I think

00:22:23.640 to any regular person,

00:22:24.900 when you see a study

00:22:25.960 that says it runs

00:22:26.800 from July 15

00:22:27.680 to August 31st,

00:22:28.940 that certainly suggests

00:22:30.440 that they're looking

00:22:31.280 at all these things

00:22:32.640 together,

00:22:33.460 you know,

00:22:33.840 for that same duration

00:22:34.860 of time.

00:22:35.740 And it was just amazing

00:22:36.780 that this kind of

00:22:37.720 talking point

00:22:38.440 about beginning

00:22:39.360 in the middle of July

00:22:40.440 was something

00:22:41.040 that was repeated

00:22:41.820 over and over

00:22:42.740 when it simply

00:22:43.380 was not the case

00:22:44.260 for 80 plus

00:22:45.700 percent of the schools.

00:22:47.320 It's just,

00:22:47.840 it didn't make sense.

00:22:49.380 No, it's dishonest

00:22:50.900 and there

00:22:51.560 is much, much more.

00:22:53.360 David did his homework

00:22:54.760 more on what he found

00:22:56.720 and on whether

00:22:57.340 we should be trusting

00:22:58.920 the CDC

00:22:59.700 and Rochelle Walensky

00:23:00.980 right after this.

00:23:02.540 Don't go away.

00:23:09.740 In addition

00:23:10.520 to the other problems

00:23:11.720 that you found,

00:23:12.880 let's go over

00:23:13.580 a couple of more.

00:23:14.580 One that I confess

00:23:15.720 in reading the article

00:23:16.420 I didn't totally understand.

00:23:19.200 You said,

00:23:20.120 critics note

00:23:21.040 the study's use

00:23:21.920 of school-related outbreaks

00:23:24.560 rather than cases

00:23:26.120 per student

00:23:27.500 per week.

00:23:28.660 This somehow

00:23:29.420 undermined the data.

00:23:30.880 I don't get that.

00:23:32.040 Can you walk me

00:23:32.580 through that

00:23:32.940 at a one-on-one level?

00:23:35.360 Yeah, it's a granular point,

00:23:38.320 but the more precise

00:23:40.860 you can be,

00:23:42.240 generally,

00:23:42.920 the better.

00:23:43.960 And what you really

00:23:44.660 want to look at

00:23:45.560 when you're looking

00:23:46.840 at the incidence

00:23:47.560 of something like,

00:23:48.560 you know,

00:23:49.080 COVID cases,

00:23:50.940 is you want to look

00:23:51.440 at the per person

00:23:53.120 per week

00:23:54.320 or per person,

00:23:55.160 you know,

00:23:55.320 some block of time.

00:23:57.040 But instead,

00:23:57.820 they looked at outbreaks,

00:23:58.980 which they defined.

00:23:59.780 By the way,

00:24:00.100 the word outbreak

00:24:00.800 is very, very deceiving

00:24:02.360 to most people.

00:24:02.980 An outbreak simply means

00:24:04.000 two cases

00:24:05.000 within 14 days

00:24:06.740 of each other

00:24:07.380 that they say

00:24:08.340 are epidemiologically linked,

00:24:09.980 which could mean

00:24:10.660 the kids were

00:24:11.260 in the same classroom.

00:24:13.400 That's it.

00:24:14.220 So get that out of the way

00:24:15.840 to begin with.

00:24:16.420 When we hear the word outbreak,

00:24:17.620 that has kind of like

00:24:18.580 a scary connotation to it,

00:24:20.020 but outbreak doesn't

00:24:21.460 technically mean

00:24:22.460 what most of us

00:24:23.240 probably think it means.

00:24:25.680 But when you're

00:24:26.860 looking at outbreaks,

00:24:27.840 those cases

00:24:28.740 aren't necessarily

00:24:29.860 linked in the manner

00:24:31.160 that that word suggests.

00:24:33.080 So it's far more precise

00:24:34.720 to look at the number

00:24:35.880 of individual cases

00:24:37.260 you're getting

00:24:38.000 in each school

00:24:39.600 in that period of time.

00:24:41.300 Again,

00:24:41.920 because imagine

00:24:42.860 you have a school

00:24:43.560 with 5,000 kids

00:24:45.020 and you have another school

00:24:46.000 with, you know,

00:24:47.280 1,000.

00:24:48.320 What's the likelihood

00:24:49.300 you're going to have

00:24:49.920 two cases

00:24:50.700 in the 5,000 school

00:24:53.280 versus two cases

00:24:54.400 in the 1,000?

00:24:55.860 Particularly,

00:24:56.500 even if you had

00:24:57.020 five schools

00:24:57.680 with 1,000 each

00:24:58.680 and one school

00:24:59.220 with 5,000,

00:25:00.140 you're still more likely

00:25:01.260 to have that outbreak

00:25:02.440 in the one school

00:25:03.700 with 5,000

00:25:04.600 than you would

00:25:05.440 having any two cases

00:25:07.060 in one of those

00:25:08.120 five schools

00:25:08.960 with 1,000,

00:25:09.840 if that makes sense.

00:25:10.740 Bigger populations

00:25:11.760 will lead to bigger

00:25:12.880 numbers of cases

00:25:13.800 and bigger numbers

00:25:14.880 of bad results.

00:25:15.380 Yeah,

00:25:15.920 and the way

00:25:16.500 and they didn't

00:25:17.440 adjust for it

00:25:18.260 in a manner

00:25:18.840 that actually

00:25:20.100 that equalizes

00:25:22.240 that discrepancy out.

00:25:24.260 So that was something

00:25:24.860 that a number

00:25:25.340 of the people

00:25:26.500 who I interviewed

00:25:27.100 for the piece

00:25:27.720 pointed out

00:25:28.340 that there's this,

00:25:29.480 you know,

00:25:29.740 again,

00:25:30.200 it's a bit granular

00:25:30.900 for a regular person,

00:25:32.060 but this,

00:25:33.240 they,

00:25:33.760 here's the main point.

00:25:36.420 There are so many

00:25:37.560 decisions along the way

00:25:39.280 when you conduct

00:25:40.520 a study.

00:25:41.040 People think science.

00:25:42.480 It's one way.

00:25:43.160 There are an infinite

00:25:44.500 number of ways

00:25:45.360 that researchers

00:25:46.240 can conduct a study.

00:25:48.100 The methodology

00:25:48.840 can vary incredibly widely

00:25:51.020 and then the analysis itself.

00:25:53.140 So there's not only

00:25:53.780 the,

00:25:54.580 there are many choices

00:25:55.460 that happen along the way

00:25:56.840 and these particular choice,

00:25:59.000 every single step

00:25:59.980 of the way,

00:26:00.380 it seemed like the choices

00:26:01.280 they took in this study

00:26:02.540 seemed to err

00:26:03.400 in one direction.

00:26:04.420 Yeah.

00:26:04.620 Oh, what a shock.

00:26:05.400 That's the takeaway

00:26:06.400 that when you put

00:26:07.180 all the pieces together.

00:26:08.680 There was another one

00:26:09.720 that I couldn't believe.

00:26:11.040 which was

00:26:11.540 when you finally,

00:26:13.060 so you,

00:26:13.400 you wanted to get,

00:26:14.560 you know,

00:26:14.920 give me the list of schools

00:26:15.780 that you looked at.

00:26:16.540 They wouldn't.

00:26:17.120 So you finally just went

00:26:18.220 to the state

00:26:19.400 and got a list of,

00:26:20.280 give me all the schools

00:26:21.240 that are in Maricopa County

00:26:22.340 and they had to give it to you.

00:26:24.060 And what you found

00:26:25.460 that was,

00:26:27.120 in particular,

00:26:28.220 was,

00:26:28.680 first of all,

00:26:29.500 all schools

00:26:29.920 were not in Maricopa County.

00:26:31.640 Number one,

00:26:32.460 they were not using

00:26:33.240 all schools within Maricopa.

00:26:34.900 And some of the schools

00:26:36.820 or at least one,

00:26:38.180 we don't know how many,

00:26:39.740 were virtual.

00:26:41.540 So they were counting

00:26:42.460 virtual people,

00:26:43.920 kids doing remote learning

00:26:45.380 in this study,

00:26:46.820 which is absurd.

00:26:47.860 I mean,

00:26:48.060 you're going to explain it to me,

00:26:49.080 but my thought was,

00:26:50.200 all right,

00:26:51.140 so little Johnny

00:26:51.960 sitting there

00:26:52.460 doing his Zoom school,

00:26:54.380 wearing,

00:26:56.500 like,

00:26:56.940 I don't know

00:26:57.420 whether he's wearing,

00:26:57.980 I assume he is not

00:26:58.820 wearing a mask.

00:26:59.680 He's not wearing a mask.

00:27:00.760 He's spending all day

00:27:01.600 with mom and dad

00:27:02.520 and brother and sister

00:27:03.300 inside of a home

00:27:04.220 unmasked

00:27:06.040 because he is at home

00:27:06.900 all day.

00:27:08.200 Maybe he,

00:27:09.000 maybe he's going

00:27:09.520 to get COVID.

00:27:10.240 How are we counting

00:27:11.140 that against schools

00:27:12.420 that,

00:27:13.100 for the most part,

00:27:13.560 have opened up

00:27:14.060 with ventilation,

00:27:15.180 with distancing,

00:27:16.720 with teachers

00:27:17.500 who are vaccinated

00:27:18.440 and all these

00:27:18.960 other protocols?

00:27:19.560 So this point

00:27:22.580 falls into that bucket

00:27:23.840 that I talked about

00:27:24.840 where there are things

00:27:25.620 there,

00:27:25.940 remember Cheney,

00:27:26.680 there are known knowns

00:27:27.660 and there are,

00:27:28.160 you know,

00:27:28.380 known unknowns.

00:27:29.520 This is,

00:27:30.060 these are the things

00:27:31.300 that were not disclosed.

00:27:32.660 So we know

00:27:33.480 that they didn't control

00:27:34.500 for vaccination status

00:27:35.700 despite what

00:27:36.520 the director Walensky said

00:27:39.360 that,

00:27:39.600 no,

00:27:39.720 no,

00:27:39.880 no,

00:27:40.060 we,

00:27:40.220 we,

00:27:40.580 we know that it's

00:27:41.440 definitely from the mask.

00:27:42.360 They didn't control

00:27:43.020 for vaccination status.

00:27:44.720 We know that already

00:27:45.560 though.

00:27:45.740 That's listed in the,

00:27:47.520 that's listed in the study.

00:27:49.120 But the things

00:27:49.820 that aren't listed

00:27:50.580 were the dates

00:27:51.300 that I talked about

00:27:52.140 this July business.

00:27:53.960 And then as well,

00:27:55.060 the other thing

00:27:55.620 that wasn't listed

00:27:56.460 is that they said

00:27:58.360 there were 782 schools

00:28:00.360 in Maricopa County

00:28:01.900 that they,

00:28:02.840 you know,

00:28:03.460 had involved in the study.

00:28:05.220 However,

00:28:06.180 what I,

00:28:06.880 and I kept going

00:28:07.560 back and forth

00:28:08.220 with them asking

00:28:08.800 for,

00:28:09.340 for the data.

00:28:10.160 And then I gave up

00:28:11.340 on asking for enrollments

00:28:12.420 or outbreaks.

00:28:12.860 I said,

00:28:13.340 just give me a list

00:28:14.260 of schools

00:28:14.620 that's publicly available.

00:28:16.260 But,

00:28:16.680 and I found

00:28:17.320 that this got cut

00:28:18.160 from the article.

00:28:18.700 I found a list

00:28:19.820 online from the county,

00:28:22.860 from,

00:28:23.100 from the superintendent.

00:28:24.200 And it said

00:28:24.960 there were 757.

00:28:26.400 I'm like,

00:28:26.700 that's strange.

00:28:27.600 The study says

00:28:28.320 there's 782.

00:28:29.420 How can there be 757?

00:28:31.020 I then spoke

00:28:31.880 to the superintendent

00:28:33.240 of schools

00:28:33.900 in Maricopa.

00:28:34.680 He confirmed for me,

00:28:35.840 yeah,

00:28:36.240 757.

00:28:37.320 In fact,

00:28:37.720 it may even be lower

00:28:38.740 for,

00:28:39.320 because some of the schools

00:28:40.140 aren't open anymore.

00:28:41.040 Blah,

00:28:41.200 blah,

00:28:41.340 blah.

00:28:42.080 Eventually,

00:28:43.300 I got the list

00:28:44.220 from the state.

00:28:45.600 And then eventually,

00:28:46.560 even after that,

00:28:47.560 finally,

00:28:48.720 they stopped responding

00:28:49.740 to me,

00:28:50.080 but my editor

00:28:50.720 emailed them

00:28:51.520 and they sent him

00:28:52.700 their sort of

00:28:53.420 windowed down list.

00:28:55.080 But even on that

00:28:56.260 windowed down list,

00:28:57.680 there still were

00:28:58.580 preschool,

00:29:00.240 virtual schools.

00:29:01.680 In the initial list

00:29:02.440 I got from the state,

00:29:03.300 and by the way,

00:29:03.840 in my public records request,

00:29:05.360 I said,

00:29:06.020 I want the list

00:29:07.720 that you gave

00:29:08.940 to these authors.

00:29:10.200 Whatever list

00:29:10.740 you gave them,

00:29:11.620 give that to me.

00:29:12.400 And they sent it to me

00:29:13.340 and they said,

00:29:14.020 this is the list.

00:29:15.080 And on that list,

00:29:15.960 there were schools

00:29:16.720 that were closed.

00:29:18.120 There were preschools.

00:29:19.400 And the biggest one

00:29:20.280 is there were something

00:29:21.200 like 80 or 90

00:29:22.600 vocational programs

00:29:24.280 that they were

00:29:25.340 categorized as schools

00:29:26.680 on this list

00:29:27.480 from the state,

00:29:28.740 but they are not schools.

00:29:30.140 It's merely a program

00:29:31.320 that you go to,

00:29:33.060 you know,

00:29:33.760 whatever,

00:29:34.400 XYZ High School

00:29:35.560 and you're taking

00:29:36.620 an automotive class.

00:29:37.920 They called that a school,

00:29:39.920 but those kids

00:29:40.620 were still there.

00:29:41.220 They could go to a campus

00:29:42.540 of these vocational schools.

00:29:43.960 There were a few campuses

00:29:44.800 where the kids

00:29:45.900 could go there

00:29:46.460 for part of the day

00:29:47.380 and then they come back

00:29:48.440 to their home school,

00:29:49.400 but those were only

00:29:50.340 like two to four campuses.

00:29:52.600 So you have 80 entries

00:29:54.520 for regular high schools

00:29:57.400 that they just call it

00:29:58.920 an additional school,

00:30:00.100 but it was not.

00:30:01.440 And I went back and forth

00:30:03.400 with the authors

00:30:04.660 and back and forth

00:30:05.740 with the editors.

00:30:06.620 I know this term

00:30:07.320 gets thrown around

00:30:08.100 a lot, gaslighting.

00:30:09.020 I thought I was losing my mind

00:30:11.680 and I talked with

00:30:12.520 all of my experts

00:30:13.720 behind the scenes.

00:30:14.620 I'm like,

00:30:15.480 I have spreadsheets

00:30:17.400 where I'm comparing everything.

00:30:18.680 I'm calling schools

00:30:19.740 in Arizona.

00:30:20.500 I spoke to the people

00:30:21.700 at the vocational schools.

00:30:23.160 They don't exist.

00:30:24.760 And the question then remains,

00:30:26.120 as you pointed out,

00:30:27.800 how do you calculate

00:30:29.940 the number of outbreaks

00:30:31.080 in schools

00:30:32.140 that don't exist?

00:30:34.480 Those are not schools,

00:30:36.240 yet they have doubled down

00:30:38.440 and they are insisting

00:30:40.020 that they said,

00:30:41.040 no, this is correct.

00:30:42.920 No matter what evidence

00:30:45.300 is presented to them,

00:30:46.760 they ultimately,

00:30:47.420 in the final communication

00:30:48.480 with my editor,

00:30:49.480 they said,

00:30:50.020 well, if there's another error

00:30:51.800 in the categorization,

00:30:53.100 you need to take that up

00:30:54.400 with the Department of Education.

00:30:56.440 That may be so,

00:30:57.500 but you conducted this study

00:30:59.120 where you're saying

00:31:00.040 there's 782 schools,

00:31:01.620 but yet there are

00:31:02.680 not those schools.

00:31:03.860 How can you have more schools

00:31:05.480 in the study

00:31:06.000 than actually exist

00:31:07.580 in this county?

00:31:08.780 It's a fair question.

00:31:09.320 How does that happen?

00:31:10.560 No one knows.

00:31:11.960 Yes, so their statement was

00:31:13.300 MMWR,

00:31:15.520 and again,

00:31:15.900 this stands for

00:31:16.380 Morbidity and Mortality

00:31:17.800 Weekly Report,

00:31:19.100 which is prepared by the CDC,

00:31:21.080 is committed

00:31:21.660 to quickly correcting errors

00:31:23.180 when they are identified.

00:31:24.740 We reviewed the specific items

00:31:26.160 that you described below

00:31:27.060 and found no errors,

00:31:28.860 which is,

00:31:29.540 I like that.

00:31:30.060 I'm going to start doing that.

00:31:31.280 Like, no matter what.

00:31:32.300 I found no errors

00:31:33.360 and what I did,

00:31:34.140 notwithstanding the fact

00:31:35.320 that they maybe stare me

00:31:36.000 in the face, right?

00:31:36.580 Like, no,

00:31:37.300 no, there aren't.

00:31:38.340 There aren't.

00:31:38.920 Okay.

00:31:39.560 That's not normally

00:31:40.280 the way this works.

00:31:42.400 I basically told them,

00:31:43.620 I'm like,

00:31:44.220 look,

00:31:44.940 it's raining outside,

00:31:46.460 and not only am I telling you

00:31:47.560 that,

00:31:47.760 here's my proof.

00:31:48.400 I'm soaking wet.

00:31:49.520 And they wrote back

00:31:50.380 and basically said,

00:31:51.420 you know, 0.91

00:31:51.840 F you,

00:31:52.260 it's not raining.

00:31:53.280 I mean,

00:31:53.500 that's essentially

00:31:54.420 what the correspondence was.

00:31:57.360 I mean,

00:31:58.440 this was not,

00:31:59.660 so that's the thing

00:32:00.620 I keep mentioning.

00:32:01.540 This is not about

00:32:03.080 different academics

00:32:04.300 as they always should do,

00:32:06.780 sort of critiquing

00:32:08.060 and reviewing each other

00:32:09.100 and saying,

00:32:09.460 I don't like this methodology.

00:32:11.200 You know,

00:32:11.400 you should have controlled

00:32:12.200 for vaccination status.

00:32:13.700 They also didn't control

00:32:15.160 for community rates

00:32:16.060 over time in the study,

00:32:17.120 by the way.

00:32:17.500 They only looked at it

00:32:18.360 pegged to the first week

00:32:19.560 of school.

00:32:20.160 So if community rates

00:32:21.100 started to skyrocket

00:32:22.200 in some of these areas

00:32:23.820 after the first week

00:32:24.920 of school,

00:32:25.520 that wasn't controlled for.

00:32:26.820 So those things were known,

00:32:29.080 but it's when I'm presenting,

00:32:30.480 there's actual evidence

00:32:31.720 and it's not me,

00:32:32.600 this pesky journalist.

00:32:33.680 I'm like,

00:32:34.100 this is from the state.

00:32:36.580 I have their list.

00:32:38.260 This is not me making stuff up.

00:32:39.660 This is not me complaining

00:32:40.600 about your methodology.

00:32:42.060 These are the actual figures

00:32:43.540 from the county of Maricopa

00:32:45.640 and from the Arizona State

00:32:48.040 Department of Education.

00:32:49.640 And they are giving me

00:32:51.000 different numbers

00:32:52.160 than what you have

00:32:53.540 in your study.

00:32:54.440 There are 80 phantom schools.

00:32:55.680 I don't know how you can tell me.

00:32:57.760 OK, so now let me ask you

00:32:58.960 about this.

00:33:00.000 Going back to Rochelle

00:33:01.240 and the CDC,

00:33:02.180 because they really

00:33:03.500 have been touting this.

00:33:04.720 I mean, I really,

00:33:05.360 I want to call

00:33:05.920 the superintendent

00:33:06.760 of our school today

00:33:07.660 and say,

00:33:08.540 have you been reliant on her?

00:33:10.500 Have you been depending

00:33:11.300 on her information?

00:33:12.820 Because I want you

00:33:13.360 to read this.

00:33:15.800 Let's put up the tweet

00:33:16.780 so the audience

00:33:17.420 who's watching on YouTube,

00:33:18.600 they can see it

00:33:19.900 and I'll read it

00:33:20.560 to our listening audience.

00:33:22.020 This is just another

00:33:23.400 representation of how

00:33:24.400 she was putting it up.

00:33:25.240 It's the CDC September tweet

00:33:26.520 I'm asking for my team.

00:33:29.600 And she tweets out.

00:33:31.000 Let's see.

00:33:32.400 Why do I keep doing this?

00:33:33.660 I can't actually read

00:33:34.920 what it's like.

00:33:36.520 Is it?

00:33:37.100 There's still quite a lot

00:33:38.020 of suffering going on.

00:33:39.100 Yeah, I'm trying to.

00:33:39.840 Oh, yeah.

00:33:40.080 No.

00:33:40.400 OK.

00:33:40.780 Yeah.

00:33:40.960 Can you read?

00:33:41.700 I'm trying to read it

00:33:42.640 and it's too far away from me.

00:33:43.700 Go ahead.

00:33:44.560 Yes.

00:33:44.840 This is the tweet

00:33:45.600 from the CDC,

00:33:46.720 which Director Walensky

00:33:48.240 ultimately retweeted

00:33:49.520 herself a couple days later.

00:33:50.740 It says the new CDC MMWR

00:33:53.340 finds schools

00:33:54.640 in two Arizona counties

00:33:56.320 without a mask requirement

00:33:57.580 were three and a half times

00:33:58.900 more likely to have

00:33:59.860 a COVID-19 outbreak

00:34:01.180 than schools requiring masks

00:34:03.000 from the start

00:34:03.640 of the school year.

00:34:05.060 CDC recommends

00:34:05.880 universal masking

00:34:07.000 for all K-12 schools.

00:34:08.600 All right.

00:34:08.780 Three and a half times.

00:34:09.260 And one of the points

00:34:10.060 you make in your article

00:34:10.960 is three and a half times

00:34:13.580 like the masks

00:34:14.400 are that effective.

00:34:15.940 They're going to give you

00:34:16.740 thruple and another half

00:34:20.180 the protection

00:34:21.340 of not wearing a mask

00:34:22.760 against getting COVID.

00:34:24.460 And you said

00:34:25.260 that right there

00:34:25.920 should have raised

00:34:26.580 alarm bells for people.

00:34:27.960 Why?

00:34:29.220 So one of the reasons

00:34:30.820 I got started

00:34:32.460 on this journey

00:34:33.700 of this investigation

00:34:34.580 was that, you know,

00:34:35.820 I'm often texting

00:34:37.200 and in correspondence

00:34:37.940 with a variety

00:34:38.800 of infectious disease people

00:34:40.100 and epidemiologists

00:34:41.080 who I'm just in touch

00:34:42.060 with every day.

00:34:43.420 And when this study came out,

00:34:46.300 my phone, you know,

00:34:47.580 exploded with people saying

00:34:48.980 three and a half times.

00:34:50.740 What?

00:34:51.240 That's like way out there.

00:34:52.760 And this type

00:34:53.240 of comparative study,

00:34:54.940 it seemed completely

00:34:56.280 to be an outlier

00:34:57.580 type of result

00:34:58.520 based on where you're

00:34:59.480 comparing these things

00:35:00.520 as you're suggesting.

00:35:02.040 That's, you know,

00:35:02.460 350 percent.

00:35:04.040 By comparison,

00:35:05.220 another study

00:35:05.880 which I dismantled,

00:35:07.060 one that took place

00:35:07.920 in Georgia schools

00:35:08.960 found something

00:35:10.140 in the 30s percent

00:35:11.460 and that was for staff.

00:35:13.700 And for students,

00:35:14.820 the percentage was 21 percent

00:35:16.700 and it wasn't even

00:35:17.540 statistically significant.

00:35:19.160 So when you're talking

00:35:19.780 about 30 something percent

00:35:21.520 and there's a big

00:35:22.440 randomized control trial

00:35:24.000 in Bangladesh,

00:35:24.840 it wasn't on schools,

00:35:25.840 but even that found

00:35:26.920 something like an 11 percent.

00:35:29.660 So something about

00:35:30.760 this just was like,

00:35:31.900 whoa,

00:35:32.660 it started ringing

00:35:33.780 alarm bells

00:35:34.620 and my phone

00:35:35.400 started blowing up

00:35:36.260 and I'm like,

00:35:36.900 maybe I should

00:35:37.920 look into this.

00:35:38.920 When something seems

00:35:40.260 more dramatic

00:35:41.320 than what,

00:35:42.480 you know,

00:35:42.640 typically makes sense,

00:35:43.640 you want to look at it

00:35:44.440 and figure out

00:35:44.940 what's going on.

00:35:46.160 And sure enough,

00:35:47.120 when, you know,

00:35:47.600 to use a cliche,

00:35:48.760 once you looked

00:35:49.260 under the hood,

00:35:50.080 things started

00:35:51.160 to look very worrisome.

00:35:53.380 So the thing to me,

00:35:54.880 Megan,

00:35:55.160 that I found

00:35:55.800 and I didn't get

00:35:56.600 to go into this

00:35:57.540 in my article,

00:35:58.140 but I felt a sense

00:36:00.760 of betrayal.

00:36:02.920 I was surprised

00:36:03.860 at how I'm content.

00:36:05.220 I felt this way

00:36:06.140 for the past,

00:36:06.720 you know,

00:36:06.880 almost two years.

00:36:07.680 I'm surprised

00:36:08.560 at how naive I've been

00:36:10.800 for someone

00:36:11.280 considering how cynical

00:36:12.220 I am,

00:36:12.820 that I still felt

00:36:14.140 like hurt

00:36:15.340 and surprised.

00:36:16.800 I remember

00:36:17.060 I was talking

00:36:17.600 to my wife

00:36:18.180 the night

00:36:18.660 I got that response

00:36:19.880 from the editors

00:36:21.300 at the journal

00:36:22.420 from the CDC

00:36:23.160 when they're like,

00:36:23.820 thank you,

00:36:24.520 there are no errors.

00:36:25.760 I was just like,

00:36:27.160 I could expect this

00:36:28.440 maybe from like the CIA

00:36:29.820 or something,

00:36:30.600 you know,

00:36:30.720 something in our

00:36:31.260 intelligence,

00:36:32.040 you know,

00:36:32.520 apparatus.

00:36:33.020 I was like,

00:36:33.660 this is a public

00:36:34.400 health agency.

00:36:35.580 Like,

00:36:36.020 what are they doing?

00:36:37.580 And when I sent

00:36:38.280 that response

00:36:39.240 to several of the experts

00:36:40.320 who were working

00:36:40.820 with me,

00:36:42.260 everyone,

00:36:43.040 we all just felt

00:36:44.720 the sense of betrayal

00:36:46.840 and astonishment

00:36:48.320 at the way

00:36:50.000 their messaging

00:36:50.840 played out with this,

00:36:52.920 even with me.

00:36:54.540 So there's,

00:36:56.060 that to me

00:36:56.540 is obviously

00:36:57.060 the broader point

00:36:57.920 than just this one study,

00:36:59.240 right?

00:36:59.560 It's the notion of,

00:37:00.620 well,

00:37:00.940 it's infuriating

00:37:01.620 because we have

00:37:02.760 millions of Americans

00:37:03.960 kids with masks

00:37:05.220 over their face

00:37:05.780 all day

00:37:06.200 and it's not necessary

00:37:07.300 and we have yet

00:37:08.160 to be shown

00:37:08.600 the science

00:37:09.060 that proves otherwise.

00:37:10.760 This is the quote

00:37:11.580 science.

00:37:12.460 Doctors Fauci,

00:37:13.220 I am the science.

00:37:14.000 This is the science.

00:37:15.120 Well,

00:37:15.220 the science doesn't hold up. 0.98

00:37:16.340 This is junk science. 0.92

00:37:17.560 This does not justify 0.98

00:37:18.360 my kid wearing a mask

00:37:19.240 over his face all day.

00:37:20.140 So show me something

00:37:20.760 that does.

00:37:21.560 But you're right

00:37:22.200 that the larger point,

00:37:23.680 apart from the inconvenience

00:37:25.000 and the social distraction

00:37:26.740 and the just soul-killing nature

00:37:29.140 of children having these masks

00:37:30.320 on their faces all day

00:37:31.120 is we don't trust

00:37:32.740 our public health officials

00:37:33.580 and for very good reason.

00:37:36.300 I think that's ultimately

00:37:37.840 what this comes down to.

00:37:38.820 And look,

00:37:39.200 whether people think

00:37:39.960 we should wear masks

00:37:40.720 or not in schools,

00:37:41.720 okay,

00:37:41.960 that can be debated.

00:37:42.960 That's a policy decision.

00:37:44.460 But policy and science

00:37:45.760 are two different things.

00:37:47.300 So if the CDC

00:37:49.060 is welcome to continue

00:37:50.160 to make the argument

00:37:51.280 that they think masks

00:37:52.180 are important in schools,

00:37:53.140 but they simply can't use

00:37:54.740 this study to make

00:37:55.600 that argument

00:37:56.080 in the way they did

00:37:56.900 over and over

00:37:57.460 and they can't use

00:37:58.400 a variety of the other studies

00:37:59.700 that they have been using.

00:38:00.960 But what it shows

00:38:02.640 is that they're willing,

00:38:04.560 I'll be charitable,

00:38:06.420 to push the envelope.

00:38:08.800 They're willing to bend the truth

00:38:10.820 if they think

00:38:12.240 it's in service

00:38:13.220 of the greater good.

00:38:14.680 They believe already

00:38:16.120 that masks have to work.

00:38:18.460 Masks are the answer.

00:38:19.580 Masks do work.

00:38:20.820 And therefore,

00:38:21.320 they do the study.

00:38:22.980 They overlook the flaws.

00:38:24.440 They don't care

00:38:25.200 when it's brought

00:38:25.640 to their specific attention.

00:38:26.800 They put their heads

00:38:27.320 in the sand

00:38:27.860 because they believe

00:38:29.260 this is what's right.

00:38:31.040 If we put something out there

00:38:32.100 saying anything other

00:38:32.880 than they work,

00:38:33.820 it can undermine what's right.

00:38:35.300 It is exactly the same thing

00:38:36.920 as Fauci

00:38:37.400 and his noble lie

00:38:38.900 about the masks

00:38:40.380 and noble lies

00:38:42.220 about what levels

00:38:43.460 we need to reach

00:38:44.080 herd immunity.

00:38:45.260 They've done it

00:38:46.080 over and over.

00:38:47.560 And most of us

00:38:48.660 are done trusting them.

00:38:49.960 Yeah, that to me

00:38:52.840 is the biggest

00:38:53.220 and there's a quote

00:38:54.280 from Jonathan Ketchum

00:38:56.940 who's a public health economist

00:38:58.500 who I interviewed

00:38:59.220 for the article

00:39:00.280 at the end

00:39:00.720 where he said,

00:39:01.200 you know,

00:39:01.380 ultimately,

00:39:01.920 this is really about

00:39:02.920 a loss of trust.

00:39:04.200 You know,

00:39:04.320 it's not about

00:39:04.940 this one particular study.

00:39:06.860 It's when,

00:39:08.100 and by the way,

00:39:09.100 I said,

00:39:09.620 hey,

00:39:09.840 if you don't trust me

00:39:10.800 as the pesky journalist,

00:39:12.020 I have a list

00:39:13.460 of highly credentialed experts

00:39:15.800 who are very concerned

00:39:17.180 about this study

00:39:17.980 and I can have the request

00:39:19.320 come from one of them

00:39:20.260 if you don't want to give

00:39:21.260 the data set to me.

00:39:22.880 Give it to,

00:39:23.200 so I even offered that up.

00:39:24.400 I was like,

00:39:24.760 hey,

00:39:25.020 I get it

00:39:25.580 if you don't want

00:39:26.160 to send it to me

00:39:26.720 as a journal.

00:39:27.280 Give it to the, 0.97

00:39:27.800 but what people need to know

00:39:29.540 is MMWR,

00:39:30.900 the CDC's journal

00:39:31.780 does not have

00:39:32.920 that external peer review,

00:39:34.640 which is considered

00:39:35.500 kind of the rock bottom

00:39:37.420 standard for most

00:39:38.700 of our top journals

00:39:39.840 in the country.

00:39:41.440 So they don't,

00:39:41.980 so there's no review.

00:39:44.260 So when you have

00:39:45.060 someone presenting you

00:39:46.200 with very specific

00:39:47.980 evidence from highly,

00:39:50.220 you know,

00:39:50.560 legitimate sources

00:39:51.640 like the state of Arizona

00:39:53.080 and the county of Maricopa

00:39:54.740 and I'm showing them

00:39:55.900 this evidence

00:39:56.320 and they say,

00:39:57.080 nah,

00:39:57.740 it's fine

00:39:58.720 and there's no way

00:40:00.160 for anyone

00:40:01.240 to verify any of this.

00:40:03.140 I mean,

00:40:03.300 if they don't give

00:40:04.220 the actual data set

00:40:05.440 and let other researchers

00:40:06.900 look at the underlying data

00:40:08.620 and the little bit

00:40:09.440 that I actually got

00:40:10.500 when I looked at the list,

00:40:12.060 lo and behold,

00:40:13.080 there were schools

00:40:13.660 that were closed.

00:40:14.820 There were schools,

00:40:15.580 kids in the virtual academies

00:40:16.940 on this list

00:40:18.200 that are in their study.

00:40:19.620 It's a black box.

00:40:20.660 No one knows

00:40:21.040 how they came up

00:40:21.920 with their ultimate findings

00:40:23.400 on the study

00:40:24.080 because none of this

00:40:25.000 makes sense or adds up.

00:40:26.700 And it's just,

00:40:27.900 it is so demoralizing

00:40:30.940 and to know

00:40:33.020 that a public health agency

00:40:34.480 has been acting

00:40:36.380 in a manner

00:40:36.920 that we would more

00:40:37.900 typically associate

00:40:38.840 with something,

00:40:39.980 you know,

00:40:40.280 like,

00:40:40.620 you know,

00:40:41.840 bad corporations

00:40:42.780 or something

00:40:43.940 in the defense department

00:40:45.000 or whatever.

00:40:46.260 It's like,

00:40:46.900 yeah,

00:40:47.960 so I think

00:40:48.660 a lot of people

00:40:49.600 distrusted the CDC

00:40:51.000 before this,

00:40:52.080 but it is important

00:40:53.440 to see actual proof,

00:40:55.080 right?

00:40:55.220 It's like,

00:40:56.000 no,

00:40:56.140 my instincts were right.

00:40:57.260 No,

00:40:57.380 they were lying

00:40:58.080 and now they are lying more.

00:40:59.460 And,

00:40:59.720 you know,

00:40:59.980 I've said this before,

00:41:01.000 but in the law,

00:41:02.260 if you catch a witness

00:41:03.140 in a lie,

00:41:04.020 you can ask for a jury

00:41:04.720 instruction to the jury.

00:41:05.880 It's basically

00:41:06.620 falsus in uno,

00:41:08.280 falsus in omnibus.

00:41:09.940 My Latin's falling apart, 1.00

00:41:11.320 but it's,

00:41:12.000 you know,

00:41:12.200 if they lied in one thing,

00:41:13.280 you're entitled

00:41:14.080 to determine

00:41:14.740 that they're a liar overall

00:41:15.740 and disbelieve their testimony. 0.81

00:41:17.580 Gotcha,

00:41:18.240 Rochelle.

00:41:18.800 Gotcha.

00:41:19.320 Gotcha,

00:41:19.760 Fauci.

00:41:20.480 Over and over.

00:41:21.080 But I want to do more with this.

00:41:22.960 I want to replay that soundbite

00:41:24.060 and ask you something specific

00:41:25.060 and then I want to ask you about

00:41:26.240 what they're doing

00:41:27.460 with the vaccines

00:41:28.200 because they're,

00:41:29.200 Biden,

00:41:29.880 he's sidelining

00:41:30.980 the officials

00:41:33.300 when it comes to pushing

00:41:34.120 through these boosters

00:41:34.760 and things for children

00:41:35.720 and given the fact

00:41:37.400 that already

00:41:38.360 they're sort of

00:41:39.320 jumping right over

00:41:40.700 things we might want

00:41:41.380 to be concerned about.

00:41:42.620 That's alarming too.

00:41:43.720 I'm going to pick it up there

00:41:44.280 right after this quick break

00:41:45.160 with David Zweig,

00:41:46.620 one of the last few

00:41:48.100 honest journalists

00:41:48.960 out there.

00:41:49.840 Legit.

00:41:50.980 And remember, folks,

00:41:51.580 you can find

00:41:51.980 The Megyn Kelly Show

00:41:52.680 live on SiriusXM Triumph channel

00:41:54.660 1-11 every weekday

00:41:56.280 at noon east.

00:41:56.960 Okay, that's for my YouTube

00:41:57.980 and my podcast followers.

00:41:59.700 If you want to catch me live,

00:42:00.540 that's where to do it.

00:42:01.620 If you like to watch the show,

00:42:03.260 just go to youtube.com

00:42:04.680 slash Megyn Kelly. 1.00

00:42:05.820 You can watch the whole show

00:42:06.680 or just clips.

00:42:07.820 And if you prefer

00:42:08.560 an audio podcast,

00:42:09.600 which is how we began,

00:42:10.900 just an audio podcast,

00:42:11.980 which is lovely,

00:42:13.500 then go ahead

00:42:14.180 and subscribe to the show

00:42:15.180 and download the show

00:42:16.080 on Apple, Spotify, Pandora

00:42:17.320 or Stitcher.

00:42:18.880 It's free.

00:42:20.180 You can consume it

00:42:21.080 at your leisure.

00:42:22.680 All right?

00:42:22.980 And you'll also find

00:42:23.560 our full archives there

00:42:24.500 with more than 220 shows.

00:42:27.060 Thank you for doing

00:42:28.040 all those things ideally.

00:42:28.940 I want to go back

00:42:36.380 and take a look,

00:42:37.020 another look at Rochelle Walensky

00:42:38.320 and how and what she said,

00:42:39.380 because what he's trying

00:42:40.340 to get to at the end,

00:42:41.000 as you point out now,

00:42:41.660 is, okay, so great.

00:42:43.120 There's a study.

00:42:43.920 All the kids should be masked.

00:42:44.900 Got it.

00:42:45.700 But is it just something like

00:42:47.300 did the data show masks help?

00:42:50.420 Masks are one of five things

00:42:52.040 that help reduce

00:42:52.940 the spread of COVID.

00:42:54.020 Or were you able

00:42:54.880 to specifically say,

00:42:55.920 no, it's the masks

00:42:57.700 that caused this

00:42:58.900 three and a half time

00:43:00.440 reduction in COVID.

00:43:02.420 Let's listen to it

00:43:03.080 one more time.

00:43:03.840 You know, the big finding

00:43:04.700 is that masks in school work.

00:43:06.620 We've only had

00:43:07.460 in some school districts

00:43:08.620 about six weeks of school.

00:43:10.560 And we've already had

00:43:11.640 in a different study

00:43:12.740 that was published today,

00:43:13.880 over 1,800 schools closed.

00:43:16.520 Nearly a million children

00:43:17.980 have been out of school

00:43:19.140 because of school closures.

00:43:20.820 But the study

00:43:21.380 that you're referring to

00:43:22.180 in Arizona

00:43:22.960 demonstrated that schools

00:43:24.700 that had masks

00:43:25.700 were three and a half times

00:43:27.180 less likely to have

00:43:28.860 a school outbreak

00:43:29.820 than schools

00:43:30.580 that didn't have masks.

00:43:32.440 Just as a follow up,

00:43:34.020 are we sure that's not

00:43:35.140 a correlation issue

00:43:37.040 and not a causation,

00:43:38.060 which is to say, like,

00:43:39.460 there's higher levels

00:43:40.500 of community transmission

00:43:41.600 in the school districts

00:43:42.940 that are also the ones

00:43:44.180 most inclined

00:43:45.080 to not have a masking policy?

00:43:47.260 See what I'm saying?

00:43:48.980 Yeah.

00:43:49.560 No.

00:43:49.920 And that's actually

00:43:50.760 been studied as well.

00:43:52.040 And we've examined

00:43:52.960 those correlations

00:43:53.780 for exactly the concern

00:43:54.920 you raise.

00:43:55.640 This is an independent

00:43:56.580 effect of masks.

00:43:59.420 That was a lie.

00:44:00.900 Well, what I can say

00:44:03.060 is every single one

00:44:04.440 of the experts

00:44:05.060 who I interviewed

00:44:05.760 for this article,

00:44:06.700 I think there were

00:44:07.220 at least three or four

00:44:08.580 or five quoted

00:44:10.300 in the article

00:44:10.880 and I had a list

00:44:12.000 of them who consulted

00:44:13.780 with me off the record

00:44:15.400 for the article as well.

00:44:17.240 Every single one of them

00:44:18.540 was very specific

00:44:20.820 and scathing

00:44:22.080 in their assessment

00:44:23.740 that this study

00:44:25.140 absolutely did not say

00:44:27.200 what the CDC claimed

00:44:29.060 it was saying.

00:44:30.280 They didn't control

00:44:31.180 for vaccination status.

00:44:32.580 They didn't control

00:44:33.340 for community rates

00:44:34.320 over time.

00:44:35.320 There was the way

00:44:36.340 they did their adjustments

00:44:37.860 for population correlations.

00:44:39.660 I mean, the list

00:44:40.480 goes on and on.

00:44:41.800 So I'm not going

00:44:42.960 to use those words,

00:44:43.880 but I will say

00:44:44.640 that what the director

00:44:46.420 Walensky is saying

00:44:47.360 is in 100% direct contrast

00:44:50.380 to what every single expert

00:44:51.800 I interviewed

00:44:52.500 about this study said to me.

00:44:56.100 And if you read

00:44:56.920 in the article,

00:44:58.420 I think it's a fairly

00:45:00.080 persuasive case

00:45:01.020 that they are correct.

00:45:03.280 Yes, she,

00:45:04.080 I'll be charitable here

00:45:05.100 and say it's not true.

00:45:06.860 Her best case scenario

00:45:07.960 is she was mistaken

00:45:09.340 over and over

00:45:11.280 and over and over

00:45:12.820 and over again.

00:45:14.040 And then when confronted

00:45:16.040 with that mistake by you,

00:45:18.600 she refused to give you 0.94

00:45:19.660 a statement.

00:45:20.240 The CDC refused to comment

00:45:21.640 when confronted

00:45:22.360 with your article

00:45:23.540 and your reporting by us.

00:45:25.000 They refused to give us

00:45:26.080 a statement or to clarify

00:45:27.080 in any way that suggests

00:45:28.920 a lie.

00:45:29.720 I'm I mean, look,

00:45:30.840 you're too nice to say it,

00:45:31.740 but I'm I've been around

00:45:32.660 this for a while.

00:45:33.920 If you won't explain it

00:45:35.620 and you won't correct it,

00:45:36.860 you lied and you're 0.80

00:45:37.860 standing by your lie

00:45:38.760 because you think

00:45:39.260 it's noble, I guess.

00:45:40.840 But it plays into

00:45:42.280 what's happening right now.

00:45:43.260 And I'll just get you

00:45:43.760 a comment on it quickly.

00:45:44.560 In the past couple of weeks,

00:45:46.180 we've had three important

00:45:47.320 decisions on vaccines.

00:45:48.480 WAPO has an article

00:45:49.340 on this today.

00:45:50.360 FDA authorized boosters

00:45:51.320 for all adults.

00:45:53.220 Everyone under 18 now 0.90

00:45:54.180 should get a booster shot,

00:45:55.100 they say,

00:45:55.620 and booster shots

00:45:56.360 for 16 and 17 year olds

00:45:57.440 without the standard

00:45:59.240 practice of convening

00:46:00.240 standing outside

00:46:01.080 advisory committees

00:46:02.060 whose members

00:46:02.780 would have objected.

00:46:04.240 They're they're now

00:46:05.060 bypassing objections

00:46:06.360 at all for their

00:46:07.600 favored policies.

00:46:08.500 David, I think

00:46:09.140 it's downright alarming.

00:46:10.100 I'll give you the last word.

00:46:10.900 Yeah, I would

00:46:13.080 I would share

00:46:14.060 your alarm

00:46:15.000 with that assessment.

00:46:16.740 The, you know,

00:46:17.980 boosters certainly

00:46:19.160 appear to be

00:46:19.720 a really good idea

00:46:20.640 for people who are older

00:46:22.140 and people who have

00:46:23.220 various vulnerabilities.

00:46:25.320 But from

00:46:26.000 and again,

00:46:26.660 I knew I was coming on.

00:46:27.920 So I double checked

00:46:28.860 with with a bunch

00:46:29.640 of my experts

00:46:30.340 this morning.

00:46:31.660 There's no evidence

00:46:33.160 that they are aware of

00:46:34.440 that giving a 16 year

00:46:36.660 old a booster

00:46:37.520 offers anything.

00:46:38.780 Remember,

00:46:39.160 you're dealing

00:46:39.980 with the population

00:46:40.820 when you're talking

00:46:41.440 about kids and adolescents

00:46:42.620 where something

00:46:43.580 at least around

00:46:44.620 50 percent of them

00:46:45.580 are asymptomatic.

00:46:46.640 That is an incredibly

00:46:47.960 high bar to clear.

00:46:50.140 And they're not

00:46:50.580 facing any serious

00:46:52.080 they're not facing

00:46:53.800 virtually any risk

00:46:54.820 at all of hospitalization

00:46:56.380 or death.

00:46:57.780 David Zweig, 0.99

00:46:58.560 you're a you're

00:46:59.200 an important person

00:47:00.060 in the national conversation.

00:47:01.360 I'm grateful to know you

00:47:02.680 and for your reporting.

00:47:03.500 Thank you.

00:47:04.340 Thanks for having me, Megan.

00:47:05.620 Wow.

00:47:06.080 We've got to get an answer

00:47:06.740 from Rochelle.

00:47:07.720 Up next,

00:47:08.360 we're going to get answers

00:47:08.820 from Karen Grassley,

00:47:09.840 which is going to be

00:47:10.360 amazing, too.

00:47:11.340 Little House on the Prairie

00:47:11.940 next.

00:47:17.880 Well, the holiday season

00:47:19.040 has me feeling nostalgic

00:47:20.340 as it always does.

00:47:21.700 Do you get that way?

00:47:22.980 So I am delighted

00:47:23.880 to be taking a walk

00:47:24.980 down memory lane

00:47:25.860 this hour,

00:47:26.620 revisiting two

00:47:27.820 of my favorite

00:47:28.720 childhood memories.

00:47:30.160 Little House on the Prairie

00:47:31.360 and later,

00:47:32.100 Willy Wonka

00:47:32.840 and the Chocolate Factory.

00:47:33.960 Boy, do I have an update

00:47:35.120 for you on that.

00:47:36.180 We begin with

00:47:37.800 one of the stars

00:47:38.960 of Little House.

00:47:40.300 From 1973 to 1984,

00:47:42.780 Karen Grassley

00:47:43.580 played the role

00:47:44.720 of Ma,

00:47:45.940 Carolyn Ingalls,

00:47:46.900 the matriarch 1.00

00:47:47.600 of the Ingalls family.

00:47:49.280 And she has now,

00:47:50.360 after all this time,

00:47:51.460 released a book

00:47:52.420 called

00:47:53.120 Bright Lights,

00:47:54.420 Prairie Dust,

00:47:55.580 detailing her life

00:47:56.600 on the prairie

00:47:57.300 and the behind-the-scenes

00:47:58.960 struggles

00:47:59.540 and triumphs

00:48:00.620 that helped create

00:48:01.800 one of the most

00:48:02.540 beloved TV shows

00:48:04.240 in history.

00:48:05.900 She joins me now.

00:48:07.280 Karen,

00:48:07.640 so nice to meet you.

00:48:09.580 Well, Megan,

00:48:10.200 thank you for having me.

00:48:11.900 Oh my gosh,

00:48:12.560 this is thrilling.

00:48:13.860 So when I was on NBC,

00:48:15.220 I got to interview

00:48:16.440 Allison,

00:48:17.700 who played Nellie,

00:48:18.900 and Melissa Gilbert,

00:48:20.100 who of course

00:48:20.540 played Laura Ingalls.

00:48:21.920 And this is like,

00:48:22.820 I'm completing the family.

00:48:24.000 I'm thrilled,

00:48:25.400 thrilled to meet you.

00:48:26.760 Thank you so much.

00:48:28.340 Like so many other

00:48:29.340 little girls,

00:48:29.980 but at the time,

00:48:30.580 I watched your show

00:48:31.520 religiously.

00:48:33.340 I learned a lot

00:48:34.300 of moral lessons

00:48:35.320 from it,

00:48:35.980 life lessons from it.

00:48:37.480 And you,

00:48:38.440 your character,

00:48:39.280 I just,

00:48:39.700 I don't remember

00:48:40.280 another time

00:48:40.940 in my own

00:48:42.240 television history,

00:48:43.420 50 years of watching,

00:48:45.000 where I found

00:48:45.660 a character

00:48:46.460 who was more loving,

00:48:48.300 a softer place to fall,

00:48:50.140 more welcoming,

00:48:51.240 someone who every

00:48:52.120 child in the country

00:48:53.160 would look at

00:48:53.800 and say,

00:48:54.420 that's an ideal mom. 0.96

00:48:57.420 Was that,

00:48:57.960 like,

00:48:58.120 what was your role model?

00:48:59.060 Who was your role model

00:48:59.820 for it?

00:49:00.240 Well,

00:49:01.380 my role model

00:49:02.100 was my mother.

00:49:04.100 You're on my mother.

00:49:05.140 My mother was not

00:49:06.440 a soft place to fall,

00:49:09.100 but she was strong,

00:49:11.560 she was honest,

00:49:12.960 she was hardworking,

00:49:14.060 and she gave us

00:49:15.700 such tremendous values.

00:49:18.580 And there were times

00:49:19.960 that I had with her,

00:49:21.360 Megan,

00:49:22.220 like after school

00:49:23.640 in the afternoon,

00:49:24.560 if my little sister

00:49:25.640 was out playing,

00:49:26.600 where I might tell her,

00:49:29.340 oh,

00:49:29.580 this bothered me

00:49:30.520 at school,

00:49:31.760 and then she would

00:49:32.980 give me a life lesson

00:49:34.660 while we were

00:49:36.080 preparing dinner,

00:49:37.300 for example.

00:49:38.620 And I felt

00:49:40.020 that I could

00:49:41.220 bring that

00:49:42.280 to Carolyn.

00:49:43.660 Mm-hmm.

00:49:44.220 You did.

00:49:44.900 I felt like you were

00:49:45.780 the perfect person

00:49:47.420 for that role.

00:49:48.460 And I know

00:49:49.240 you wound up,

00:49:50.160 I wound up having

00:49:50.720 some issues

00:49:51.400 with the size

00:49:52.140 of the role,

00:49:52.740 and we'll get

00:49:53.080 into all of that.

00:49:53.800 But just a bit

00:49:55.280 of background

00:49:55.740 before we go there.

00:49:56.660 You were raised

00:49:57.680 in California,

00:49:58.840 a California girl,

00:50:00.540 wound up going

00:50:01.940 after a brief stint

00:50:02.800 in Louisiana

00:50:03.420 to Berkeley.

00:50:04.880 At the time,

00:50:05.720 thought you were

00:50:06.040 going to be a ballerina,

00:50:07.540 then no,

00:50:08.840 and then ultimately

00:50:09.700 settled on acting.

00:50:11.600 And how did your parents

00:50:12.800 feel about that?

00:50:16.640 Well,

00:50:17.460 the day that they

00:50:18.620 really got it,

00:50:19.960 I was 19 years old,

00:50:21.600 and my mother

00:50:23.380 went to bed crying

00:50:24.540 and said,

00:50:26.540 anything but

00:50:28.080 politics

00:50:29.020 or the theater.

00:50:31.260 And my mother

00:50:32.180 was not a weeper,

00:50:33.580 you know,

00:50:34.040 this was just

00:50:35.420 crushing to her.

00:50:37.600 They wanted us

00:50:38.640 to have a safe,

00:50:40.080 secure life.

00:50:41.540 They would have

00:50:42.040 liked me to be,

00:50:42.940 you know,

00:50:43.280 a school teacher,

00:50:44.380 something like that.

00:50:46.000 My dad,

00:50:47.120 on the other hand,

00:50:47.960 was sitting in the kitchen

00:50:49.040 smoking a cigarette

00:50:50.040 and I went

00:50:51.960 in there

00:50:52.460 and lit up

00:50:53.480 a cigarette

00:50:53.940 of my own

00:50:54.780 and he said,

00:50:56.280 well,

00:50:56.800 I've been trying

00:50:58.160 to talk you

00:50:58.820 out of this

00:50:59.380 for 10 years.

00:51:01.000 Now I'm

00:51:01.980 through talking.

00:51:04.200 And that's

00:51:05.100 when I got it

00:51:06.060 that they

00:51:07.100 had known

00:51:07.780 all along,

00:51:09.040 but that I'd

00:51:10.400 been hiding

00:51:11.020 this from myself

00:51:12.140 because I knew

00:51:13.240 they didn't want it

00:51:14.400 and you just

00:51:15.780 didn't do that

00:51:16.740 when you came

00:51:17.420 from my little town.

00:51:19.960 So this is

00:51:20.840 late 1960s,

00:51:22.600 early 70s?

00:51:25.000 Oh,

00:51:25.520 no.

00:51:26.300 That would be

00:51:27.320 1961.

00:51:29.620 Okay.

00:51:30.180 Okay.

00:51:30.860 Well,

00:51:31.260 you look so young.

00:51:32.080 I can't figure it out.

00:51:32.940 All right.

00:51:33.240 So that's the idea.

00:51:35.540 Right.

00:51:35.880 Well,

00:51:36.000 you're nailing it.

00:51:36.940 You look amazing.

00:51:39.300 Okay.

00:51:39.780 So you,

00:51:40.440 you try your hand,

00:51:41.300 you act on the stage

00:51:42.240 and so on.

00:51:42.880 And then I love

00:51:43.640 this part from your book.

00:51:44.920 You talk about how,

00:51:46.360 I'm going to get it

00:51:47.500 in front of me

00:51:48.060 that how about how

00:51:49.460 you were considering

00:51:51.000 for a time

00:51:51.660 giving up showbiz.

00:51:53.500 You didn't have

00:51:54.320 a lot of money.

00:51:54.920 Your mom loaned you

00:51:55.700 some dough

00:51:56.300 and you got new photos

00:51:58.540 for your acting job

00:51:59.860 and decided to take them

00:52:00.840 to the talent agency.

00:52:01.920 And Karen, 0.99

00:52:02.260 would you please tell

00:52:03.020 Ma Ingalls,

00:52:03.760 could you please tell

00:52:04.340 the audience

00:52:04.780 what was in those photos?

00:52:07.320 Oh,

00:52:07.700 well,

00:52:08.320 among other things,

00:52:09.620 there were a number

00:52:10.840 of different poses,

00:52:12.120 Megan,

00:52:12.360 but also

00:52:13.740 I was naked

00:52:15.280 from the waist up.

00:52:17.280 And in the 60s,

00:52:19.240 that was nothing.

00:52:20.540 I mean,

00:52:21.000 nothing.

00:52:22.840 You know,

00:52:23.920 we had the show

00:52:25.200 Oh,

00:52:25.520 Calcutta

00:52:26.160 that was entirely nude.

00:52:28.920 It was the days

00:52:30.520 of the sexual revolution

00:52:32.860 and all that.

00:52:34.140 So I didn't think

00:52:35.260 anything about it.

00:52:36.460 But when I look back

00:52:38.000 on it,

00:52:38.520 I feel embarrassed

00:52:39.760 taking these photographs

00:52:41.340 over to the talent agency

00:52:43.080 for them to look over

00:52:44.320 and tell me

00:52:45.060 which ones we should use.

00:52:47.800 Well,

00:52:47.880 so that leads

00:52:48.500 to the $64,000 question,

00:52:50.360 which is,

00:52:51.240 did they send

00:52:51.840 that one in

00:52:53.060 for the role

00:52:54.280 on Little House?

00:52:55.700 Because you know

00:52:56.060 what we know

00:52:56.460 about Michael Landon.

00:52:57.440 I mean,

00:52:57.680 that might have

00:52:58.140 been helpful.

00:53:00.020 Not at all.

00:53:01.700 Michael wasn't

00:53:02.380 a ladies man.

00:53:03.400 I don't know

00:53:03.840 where that rumor

00:53:04.680 got started,

00:53:05.780 but he was

00:53:06.940 a loyal husband

00:53:08.020 first to Lynn

00:53:09.040 and then later

00:53:11.060 to his new wife,

00:53:12.920 Cindy.

00:53:14.640 But as far

00:53:15.780 as the picture

00:53:16.380 was concerned,

00:53:17.660 it was,

00:53:19.260 you know,

00:53:20.620 yours truly,

00:53:21.780 wholesome

00:53:22.140 and direct

00:53:25.600 and got me

00:53:28.020 the audition.

00:53:29.580 So when,

00:53:30.380 of course,

00:53:30.800 you played the part

00:53:32.040 from the beginning,

00:53:32.700 so you had no idea

00:53:33.460 whether this would be

00:53:34.140 a huge hit

00:53:34.860 or a flop.

00:53:36.260 I mean,

00:53:36.500 we now know

00:53:37.060 it was one of the greatest

00:53:37.720 hits of all time

00:53:38.680 in American television

00:53:40.120 history,

00:53:40.660 but you didn't know

00:53:41.740 that going in.

00:53:42.880 And what was the

00:53:44.060 perception on your part?

00:53:45.040 What was your hope

00:53:45.800 in trying to land

00:53:47.500 the role?

00:53:49.280 Well,

00:53:49.560 first of all,

00:53:50.160 I just wanted a job.

00:53:52.280 I wanted to earn

00:53:53.460 my living

00:53:54.040 and I wanted

00:53:56.540 to stay in show business.

00:53:58.460 So I was really thrilled

00:54:00.660 when I got the part,

00:54:02.200 but I thought,

00:54:04.000 well,

00:54:04.280 it will be a hit.

00:54:05.340 And my idea

00:54:07.280 of a hit

00:54:08.080 not being

00:54:09.380 from Hollywood

00:54:10.100 was

00:54:11.300 three years,

00:54:13.200 maybe,

00:54:13.900 you know,

00:54:14.200 it'll run.

00:54:15.220 And now we're coming up

00:54:16.940 on almost 50 years.

00:54:18.820 People are still watching.

00:54:20.660 Yes,

00:54:21.020 I have my kids watch it.

00:54:23.040 My kids are so excited

00:54:23.860 I'm doing this interview.

00:54:24.760 Yes,

00:54:25.040 of course.

00:54:25.740 I've seen them all.

00:54:26.900 And can I tell you something? 0.87

00:54:28.100 This is actually kind of silly,

00:54:29.500 but maybe you've heard 0.64

00:54:30.700 this kind of story before.

00:54:32.220 When I was a young lawyer,

00:54:34.040 I graduated law school in 95

00:54:35.600 and I was practicing in New York.

00:54:37.580 I was by myself.

00:54:38.660 I was very stressed out.

00:54:40.380 Well,

00:54:40.800 at first I went to Chicago

00:54:41.620 and then I came to New York

00:54:42.420 and I was stressed out.

00:54:44.020 New York is tough on a young,

00:54:45.160 I was from upstate New York.

00:54:46.400 That's very different.

00:54:47.400 Bucolic farmland.

00:54:49.580 So it was stressful.

00:54:51.440 And in the morning,

00:54:52.580 instead of putting on

00:54:53.980 the Today Show

00:54:54.800 or the morning news,

00:54:56.180 I put on reruns

00:54:58.380 of Little House on the Prairie

00:54:59.940 and then I'd go off

00:55:01.260 to do my law job

00:55:02.120 where I was a killer, right?

00:55:03.560 But it calmed me,

00:55:05.380 centered me,

00:55:06.220 made me feel connected

00:55:06.940 to home again.

00:55:08.540 Yes,

00:55:08.920 and that's what I feel good about now.

00:55:11.300 At the time,

00:55:12.620 I thought,

00:55:13.700 well, you know,

00:55:14.360 these lessons are good

00:55:15.700 and everything,

00:55:16.580 but I like a more complicated,

00:55:19.100 dramatic kind of show.

00:55:20.960 And I like to deal

00:55:23.680 with dysfunctional families

00:55:25.660 and all that.

00:55:26.540 But now I really appreciate

00:55:28.980 how this brings

00:55:30.860 this serenity

00:55:32.080 into people's lives.

00:55:34.140 And during the pandemic,

00:55:35.700 it's been even more so.

00:55:37.680 Is that right?

00:55:39.220 Yes.

00:55:40.140 A whole audience

00:55:41.240 has found the show

00:55:42.460 during the pandemic

00:55:43.520 that never knew

00:55:44.760 about it before.

00:55:45.920 Oh, wow.

00:55:46.740 I didn't realize.

00:55:47.460 I'm so happy for them.

00:55:48.960 I have the whole box set,

00:55:50.380 of course.

00:55:50.740 You don't need it anymore

00:55:51.520 because you can get it online,

00:55:52.560 but I've got it

00:55:53.860 in many versions.

00:55:54.480 Okay, so you met

00:55:56.820 with Michael Landon.

00:55:58.080 According to the book,

00:55:58.940 you talked with him.

00:56:00.880 And did you know

00:56:01.760 right at that moment,

00:56:02.900 like, I got this?

00:56:05.740 No.

00:56:06.360 I told them

00:56:08.120 my background

00:56:10.200 and my training in London

00:56:11.900 and my Broadway debut

00:56:14.120 that closed in five days

00:56:16.380 and my Shakespeare in the Park

00:56:19.020 and all that.

00:56:19.860 and it all amounted

00:56:22.480 to, after all that,

00:56:24.640 that I still had no career.

00:56:26.660 So when I left,

00:56:27.900 I thought,

00:56:28.480 oh, my God, 0.99

00:56:29.200 I told them I'm a loser. 0.96

00:56:32.140 And then I said, 0.95

00:56:33.380 no, Karen, 0.78

00:56:34.740 you told them the truth.

00:56:36.280 So if they don't want you

00:56:38.240 for this,

00:56:38.880 then it's not the right place

00:56:40.460 for you,

00:56:41.460 which was such

00:56:42.600 an insight of faith,

00:56:44.960 you know,

00:56:45.820 at a moment

00:56:46.700 when I really needed work.

00:56:48.760 And then before

00:56:50.680 I even got home,

00:56:51.720 they were like,

00:56:52.320 come back to the studio

00:56:53.360 and pick up the sides.

00:56:54.820 We want to read her tomorrow.

00:56:57.020 It's exciting.

00:56:58.040 What an exciting point

00:56:59.020 in any young actress's life.

00:57:01.880 So you did get the part

00:57:03.520 and you would

00:57:04.440 come into our homes

00:57:06.020 and into our hearts

00:57:07.060 for 11 years

00:57:08.200 as Carolyn Ingalls.

00:57:10.040 And you are very honest

00:57:12.720 in the book

00:57:13.160 about the highs and lows of it

00:57:14.860 and how you and Michael Landon,

00:57:17.580 who he went into this series

00:57:19.360 as a star.

00:57:20.900 He was Little Joe on Bonanza.

00:57:22.860 I remember those days too.

00:57:24.580 And he was so good looking.

00:57:26.740 I mean,

00:57:26.900 every woman in America,

00:57:28.000 you know,

00:57:28.400 he's one of those.

00:57:29.560 My mom describes him

00:57:31.220 as one of those.

00:57:32.460 He's one of those men

00:57:33.380 by whom you know

00:57:34.340 whether or not you're old.

00:57:35.980 There's a period of years

00:57:36.940 where you want him

00:57:37.620 to be your dad.

00:57:38.680 And then,

00:57:39.440 then it crosses over into,

00:57:41.420 I want him

00:57:42.200 in a different way.

00:57:43.080 That is so funny.

00:57:47.020 Whenever I would go out

00:57:48.140 on the road

00:57:48.700 to promote the show,

00:57:50.180 the question I would get

00:57:51.740 so often is,

00:57:53.360 what is it like

00:57:54.660 to kiss Michael?

00:57:56.740 You know,

00:57:57.560 I mean,

00:57:58.400 so many girls

00:57:59.840 had grown up

00:58:00.620 with fantasies

00:58:01.680 about him.

00:58:02.860 Yeah.

00:58:03.520 But, you know,

00:58:04.140 and you,

00:58:04.620 you discuss the good

00:58:05.760 about Michael,

00:58:06.900 but it wasn't all good

00:58:08.160 and no one is.

00:58:09.360 And you write about

00:58:10.480 how complicated people

00:58:11.900 are sometimes difficult

00:58:13.400 to work with,

00:58:14.380 you know,

00:58:14.500 because super,

00:58:15.600 super talented people

00:58:16.600 are complicated.

00:58:17.340 You write.

00:58:18.240 And that's been true 0.80

00:58:19.040 in my experience, too.

00:58:20.100 So you and he collaborate

00:58:21.540 on the first season

00:58:22.280 and Ma's a big character

00:58:23.380 and so on.

00:58:23.860 And then things take

00:58:24.980 a bit of a left turn

00:58:26.640 between the two of you.

00:58:28.300 Tell us why.

00:58:30.660 Well,

00:58:31.160 it's very common

00:58:32.080 in Hollywood

00:58:32.760 that if a show succeeds,

00:58:35.060 then the actors

00:58:36.360 renegotiate their contracts

00:58:37.860 based on the fact

00:58:39.580 that it's a hit.

00:58:40.860 When I got the job,

00:58:42.220 I had no name.

00:58:43.560 I had no reputation.

00:58:45.780 And so when my agent

00:58:48.200 showed me the contract,

00:58:49.240 I said,

00:58:50.100 wait a minute,

00:58:50.840 this isn't what people

00:58:52.420 get paid.

00:58:53.760 And he said,

00:58:54.360 no, no,

00:58:54.740 don't even worry about that

00:58:56.280 because if it succeeds,

00:58:58.740 we'll renegotiate

00:59:00.300 at the beginning

00:59:01.060 of the second season.

00:59:02.460 So I began work

00:59:04.020 with that understanding.

00:59:05.160 But when my attorney

00:59:08.120 and I went to see Mike

00:59:09.500 to talk about that,

00:59:11.140 he deflected in every way.

00:59:13.500 He just did not

00:59:14.560 want to discuss it.

00:59:16.420 And we left there

00:59:18.120 with nothing satisfied.

00:59:20.340 And then my attorney said,

00:59:22.380 well, you know,

00:59:22.900 I'll talk to the network

00:59:24.220 and without you there,

00:59:25.620 maybe we can do business.

00:59:27.740 And this began

00:59:29.780 a cycle of

00:59:31.680 diminishment

00:59:33.540 and punishment

00:59:34.640 and retribution

00:59:37.180 that I could not believe.

00:59:39.880 Wow.

00:59:41.360 And I never have

00:59:42.640 really understood,

00:59:44.000 Megan,

00:59:44.620 why Mike

00:59:47.000 was so determined

00:59:49.060 not to pay me

00:59:50.400 a fair salary.

00:59:51.980 But it went on

00:59:53.220 for over a year.

00:59:54.720 I did almost two seasons

00:59:56.480 not knowing

00:59:57.900 what I was going

00:59:58.920 to be paid

00:59:59.720 and having

01:00:01.420 my part cut

01:00:02.500 and having

01:00:03.660 insults made 0.53

01:00:05.060 on the set.

01:00:06.940 And then

01:00:08.040 finally

01:00:09.060 it got settled.

01:00:11.380 And I was like,

01:00:12.540 whew,

01:00:13.080 now we can go back

01:00:14.520 to just being

01:00:15.260 colleagues,

01:00:16.340 you know,

01:00:16.980 and do our work

01:00:18.380 because we actually

01:00:19.340 liked working together

01:00:20.640 very much.

01:00:22.380 Did you

01:00:23.200 go back

01:00:23.820 to that place?

01:00:25.740 It came

01:00:26.240 and went.

01:00:27.320 From then on,

01:00:28.240 I never knew

01:00:29.120 whether we were

01:00:30.340 going to go back

01:00:31.100 to that place,

01:00:31.900 which we sometimes did,

01:00:33.760 or whether he was

01:00:35.360 going to be cold

01:00:37.060 and dismissive.

01:00:40.240 This,

01:00:40.840 you're very open

01:00:41.420 in the book,

01:00:42.160 was particularly

01:00:43.180 difficult for you

01:00:44.460 because it

01:00:45.520 reminded you

01:00:46.620 of what it's like

01:00:47.400 to be the child

01:00:48.060 of an alcoholic.

01:00:49.520 And your dad was.

01:00:51.700 And it is

01:00:52.260 very inconsistent,

01:00:53.480 right?

01:00:53.720 And that's how

01:00:54.260 it sounds like

01:00:55.300 Michael was too.

01:00:56.060 Well,

01:00:57.080 that was the echo,

01:00:58.940 you know,

01:00:59.280 what you picked up there

01:01:00.680 that my dad,

01:01:02.480 whom I adored,

01:01:04.180 we were all crazy

01:01:05.180 about him,

01:01:06.160 but he could turn.

01:01:07.900 And he would turn

01:01:09.480 on me

01:01:10.000 in a vicious way.

01:01:11.700 And this was

01:01:12.900 reminiscent of that.

01:01:14.200 So it really

01:01:14.940 cut through

01:01:15.900 my defenses.

01:01:17.780 And I

01:01:18.580 was very,

01:01:19.840 very

01:01:20.240 vulnerable.

01:01:21.220 and this

01:01:22.460 contributed,

01:01:23.480 I must say,

01:01:24.420 to my own

01:01:25.760 feeling of being

01:01:26.840 a victim

01:01:27.480 and drinking

01:01:28.580 more

01:01:29.280 and really

01:01:30.400 running myself

01:01:31.320 into the ground.

01:01:33.280 I was shocked

01:01:34.480 to read

01:01:35.260 that you

01:01:36.300 were,

01:01:37.100 I think it's fair

01:01:38.180 to say,

01:01:38.480 becoming an alcoholic

01:01:40.220 from the early

01:01:41.860 years of the show.

01:01:43.520 And that,

01:01:44.260 you know,

01:01:44.580 you wrote about

01:01:45.080 sort of waking up

01:01:45.940 with the puffy eyes

01:01:46.860 and breaking the ice

01:01:47.860 on the counter

01:01:48.440 and putting them

01:01:49.520 on your eyes

01:01:50.080 and trying to find

01:01:50.680 something stronger

01:01:51.360 than Vizine.

01:01:52.860 You know,

01:01:53.180 it's so

01:01:53.960 otherworldly

01:01:54.860 to think back

01:01:55.460 on that version

01:01:56.200 of Carolyn Ingalls

01:01:57.460 and think

01:01:58.460 she was having

01:01:59.480 real struggles

01:02:00.580 like everyone does.

01:02:02.200 And some,

01:02:03.020 some were dark.

01:02:05.000 Yeah.

01:02:05.880 Yeah.

01:02:06.180 I had always

01:02:07.220 struggled with depression

01:02:09.460 and from time to time

01:02:11.540 I had had these

01:02:12.500 bad episodes

01:02:13.540 when I went out

01:02:14.640 drinking.

01:02:15.740 But

01:02:16.340 because I was

01:02:17.920 now successful,

01:02:19.280 I had more money.

01:02:21.380 We went out

01:02:22.360 to nice restaurants.

01:02:23.480 We bought bottles

01:02:25.140 of fancy wine

01:02:26.460 and drinking

01:02:28.460 became more

01:02:29.460 of a lifestyle

01:02:30.260 thing.

01:02:31.300 But when the

01:02:32.280 contract conflict

01:02:33.780 started,

01:02:35.200 then I began

01:02:37.100 to sink

01:02:37.740 into that,

01:02:38.700 you know,

01:02:39.080 and go home

01:02:39.900 and feel sorry

01:02:40.700 for myself

01:02:41.520 and drink

01:02:42.420 and say,

01:02:43.560 you know,

01:02:44.200 you drink too

01:02:45.220 if you had

01:02:45.920 these problems

01:02:46.940 and rationalize

01:02:48.360 my own

01:02:49.840 bad behavior,

01:02:51.320 really.

01:02:52.800 So what you're saying

01:02:53.760 is you loved

01:02:54.300 the scenes

01:02:54.640 with Mr. Edwards.

01:02:56.740 I do.

01:02:58.200 His moonshine.

01:03:02.100 Victor was a

01:03:03.020 wonderful actor,

01:03:04.060 you know,

01:03:04.440 and we had

01:03:05.980 a real intimacy

01:03:07.000 in the scenes

01:03:08.060 and I loved

01:03:09.440 playing with him.

01:03:11.120 Well,

01:03:11.440 who else did

01:03:11.960 you love

01:03:12.400 playing across?

01:03:13.460 I mean,

01:03:13.680 I,

01:03:14.420 of course,

01:03:14.860 Mrs. Olsen

01:03:15.420 was always a favorite

01:03:16.340 for those of us.

01:03:17.060 Yes.

01:03:17.380 Did you and she

01:03:18.260 get along?

01:03:19.360 Oh,

01:03:19.800 we were such

01:03:20.580 good friends.

01:03:22.160 She was such a

01:03:23.160 good friend to me.

01:03:24.580 Oh,

01:03:24.920 yeah.

01:03:25.460 She was great

01:03:26.520 during all this

01:03:27.540 struggle.

01:03:29.460 And

01:03:29.760 right after

01:03:31.960 my dad died,

01:03:33.100 we went over

01:03:33.740 to Tucson

01:03:34.380 to shoot

01:03:35.120 some scenes

01:03:36.800 for the show

01:03:37.780 and Scotty

01:03:39.420 invited me

01:03:40.040 to come in,

01:03:40.900 have dinner

01:03:41.380 in her room.

01:03:42.820 She said,

01:03:43.460 yeah,

01:03:43.660 just come on

01:03:44.400 and have dinner

01:03:44.960 in my room,

01:03:45.820 you know,

01:03:46.140 it'll be quiet

01:03:47.100 and I just felt

01:03:49.040 like I needed

01:03:49.940 protection

01:03:51.120 from the crew

01:03:52.940 at the bar

01:03:53.980 and all that

01:03:55.540 going on.

01:03:57.840 And

01:03:58.400 we just

01:03:59.580 formed this

01:04:00.780 bond

01:04:01.360 because we

01:04:02.000 loved to

01:04:03.100 rehearse.

01:04:04.400 We loved

01:04:05.120 our egg

01:04:05.780 scenes.

01:04:06.440 We loved

01:04:07.120 to have

01:04:07.900 fights

01:04:08.880 with each

01:04:09.500 other,

01:04:09.920 you know.

01:04:10.720 It was so

01:04:11.740 gratifying.

01:04:13.060 Oh,

01:04:13.200 she was always

01:04:13.620 telling you

01:04:14.000 your eggs

01:04:14.340 were too

01:04:14.620 small.

01:04:15.240 And then

01:04:15.460 sometimes

01:04:15.860 you would

01:04:16.140 take a

01:04:16.380 stand,

01:04:16.920 say,

01:04:17.080 I'm going

01:04:17.420 to bring

01:04:17.660 them

01:04:17.740 someplace

01:04:18.000 else.

01:04:18.680 It was

01:04:19.040 great.

01:04:19.700 She was

01:04:20.080 one of

01:04:20.240 the best

01:04:20.520 characters

01:04:20.960 and your

01:04:21.820 relationship

01:04:22.260 was fun

01:04:22.920 to watch.

01:04:23.340 But

01:04:23.440 listen,

01:04:24.360 I've been

01:04:24.720 there too.

01:04:25.180 I understand

01:04:25.520 what it's

01:04:25.780 like to be

01:04:26.100 one of the

01:04:26.440 only women

01:04:26.900 at an

01:04:27.240 all-men's 0.59

01:04:27.680 table

01:04:28.020 and the

01:04:28.940 dynamics

01:04:29.380 there.

01:04:29.780 And it

01:04:29.900 can be

01:04:30.320 awkward

01:04:30.820 and uncomfortable

01:04:31.440 and if

01:04:31.940 you're not

01:04:32.160 with the

01:04:32.460 right guys

01:04:33.080 at that

01:04:33.380 table,

01:04:34.360 it can

01:04:35.100 be very

01:04:35.620 stressful

01:04:36.140 and I'm

01:04:36.700 sure even

01:04:37.560 more so

01:04:38.240 in the

01:04:38.920 early 1970s.

01:04:40.340 Well,

01:04:41.780 I think

01:04:42.160 there are

01:04:42.580 things that

01:04:43.240 went on

01:04:43.980 then that

01:04:44.420 can't go

01:04:45.000 on now,

01:04:45.680 thank heavens.

01:04:47.040 And isn't

01:04:47.880 it fantastic

01:04:49.300 that these

01:04:51.020 brave young

01:04:52.120 women spoke

01:04:53.120 up and the

01:04:54.040 hashtag Me

01:04:54.880 Too movement

01:04:55.560 got going?

01:04:56.800 I mean,

01:04:57.180 it really is

01:04:57.920 marvelous.

01:04:59.060 Don't get me

01:04:59.640 wrong,

01:04:59.920 I'm not

01:05:00.300 saying that

01:05:01.120 Mike ever

01:05:01.900 assaulted me

01:05:03.840 or harassed

01:05:04.660 me sexually

01:05:05.520 by touching 0.83

01:05:06.360 me or

01:05:06.800 anything like

01:05:07.420 that,

01:05:08.140 but there's

01:05:09.100 an atmosphere

01:05:10.020 of put

01:05:11.560 down,

01:05:12.080 there's

01:05:12.360 an atmosphere

01:05:13.340 that is

01:05:15.540 denigrating

01:05:16.580 to a

01:05:17.900 woman.

01:05:19.220 That's

01:05:19.420 recognized

01:05:19.780 too under

01:05:20.380 sexual

01:05:20.740 harassment

01:05:21.080 law as a

01:05:21.600 hostile work

01:05:22.080 environment.

01:05:22.620 I mean,

01:05:22.740 that's a

01:05:23.620 real claim

01:05:24.100 that can

01:05:24.360 be filed.

01:05:25.740 Exactly.

01:05:26.840 And I

01:05:27.100 would file

01:05:27.680 it today.

01:05:29.100 Is that

01:05:29.380 right?

01:05:29.780 I mean,

01:05:30.000 so what

01:05:30.740 about that?

01:05:31.180 Because one

01:05:31.460 of the

01:05:31.620 questions

01:05:31.860 people have

01:05:32.420 is,

01:05:33.200 why now?

01:05:33.860 Why would

01:05:34.120 you come

01:05:34.460 out and

01:05:35.260 tell a story

01:05:37.020 now after

01:05:37.460 all these

01:05:37.940 years?

01:05:38.320 Well,

01:05:39.860 I didn't

01:05:40.340 know that's

01:05:41.120 what I

01:05:41.440 was going

01:05:41.880 to do.

01:05:42.660 You know,

01:05:42.900 I started

01:05:43.440 writing my

01:05:44.260 memories.

01:05:45.380 I started

01:05:46.580 exploring the

01:05:48.260 whole form

01:05:49.140 of memoir

01:05:49.820 as a

01:05:50.880 kind of

01:05:51.820 book and

01:05:52.700 took classes

01:05:53.680 and it

01:05:55.580 began to

01:05:56.600 evolve and

01:05:58.000 I realized

01:05:58.860 that if

01:06:00.460 I'm going

01:06:00.760 to tell

01:06:01.060 my story,

01:06:01.700 I'm going

01:06:02.060 to have

01:06:02.340 to tell

01:06:02.780 my story.

01:06:03.600 You know,

01:06:06.040 I can't

01:06:07.140 leave out

01:06:07.980 the tricky

01:06:08.640 parts and

01:06:10.740 if I have

01:06:11.600 anything to

01:06:12.240 offer,

01:06:12.800 it's my

01:06:13.240 honesty and

01:06:14.800 the lessons

01:06:15.440 I've learned,

01:06:16.380 you know.

01:06:17.260 So I've

01:06:18.560 got to put

01:06:19.000 it out

01:06:19.380 there.

01:06:20.900 And I

01:06:21.600 really didn't

01:06:23.420 mean for the

01:06:24.080 book to take

01:06:24.660 so long to

01:06:25.480 get published.

01:06:27.840 But part

01:06:28.940 of it was

01:06:29.520 it took me

01:06:30.060 a long time

01:06:30.700 to write it,

01:06:31.460 but also it

01:06:32.220 just got

01:06:32.640 rejected

01:06:33.280 everywhere.

01:06:34.540 What?

01:06:34.900 What insane 1.00

01:06:35.880 lunatic rejected 0.99

01:06:36.900 your memoir?

01:06:38.420 There's a

01:06:39.020 list.

01:06:41.560 Yeah.

01:06:42.560 So I

01:06:44.420 didn't know

01:06:44.880 it would

01:06:45.100 take so

01:06:46.120 long for

01:06:46.900 it to

01:06:47.200 come out.

01:06:47.960 So it

01:06:48.460 wasn't that

01:06:48.940 I planned

01:06:49.660 for it to

01:06:50.360 come out

01:06:50.760 now.

01:06:51.160 I mean,

01:06:51.360 this is just

01:06:51.940 the way it

01:06:52.400 turned out.

01:06:53.420 Yeah,

01:06:53.620 it was an

01:06:53.960 organic thing.

01:06:55.160 All right,

01:06:55.320 now let me

01:06:55.760 stand you by

01:06:56.520 for one

01:06:56.840 second.

01:06:57.120 We're going

01:06:57.240 to squeeze

01:06:57.560 in a quick

01:06:58.620 break.

01:06:59.220 And on the

01:06:59.960 opposite side,

01:07:00.820 I want to

01:07:01.120 ask,

01:07:01.460 Karen,

01:07:01.620 whether there's

01:07:02.000 any blowback

01:07:03.200 to her from

01:07:04.140 other members

01:07:04.560 of the cast

01:07:05.160 and saying,

01:07:05.780 oh,

01:07:06.500 not the

01:07:07.120 perfect things

01:07:07.700 about Michael

01:07:08.220 Landon.

01:07:09.380 And also

01:07:10.240 about the

01:07:11.220 character on

01:07:12.280 Little House

01:07:12.840 with whom

01:07:13.400 she had

01:07:14.060 an affair.

01:07:15.300 I,

01:07:16.000 maybe I'm

01:07:16.280 the last

01:07:16.520 to know.

01:07:16.960 I did not

01:07:17.320 know this

01:07:17.620 happened.

01:07:18.300 I'll tell

01:07:18.700 you who it

01:07:18.940 is.

01:07:19.380 And then

01:07:19.720 amazing,

01:07:21.040 amazing update

01:07:21.680 for you on

01:07:22.760 my love affair

01:07:23.340 with Willy Wonka

01:07:24.020 and the

01:07:24.220 chocolate factory.

01:07:24.680 So,

01:07:30.140 Karen,

01:07:30.680 one of the

01:07:31.260 things I saw

01:07:32.140 you write

01:07:32.920 was interesting

01:07:33.480 to me.

01:07:33.760 I wanted to

01:07:34.100 ask you about

01:07:34.540 it because you

01:07:34.880 were talking

01:07:35.380 about how

01:07:35.840 when you got

01:07:36.260 the part,

01:07:36.660 you mentioned

01:07:36.920 this earlier,

01:07:37.380 you weren't

01:07:38.280 sure you wanted

01:07:38.820 to play a

01:07:39.280 dramatic role

01:07:40.720 and maybe

01:07:41.940 Carolyn Ingalls

01:07:42.800 didn't have

01:07:43.340 all the layers

01:07:44.040 that you would

01:07:45.180 have liked

01:07:45.780 as an actress.

01:07:47.680 But there

01:07:48.280 was a line

01:07:48.780 in your book

01:07:49.800 that reads,

01:07:50.340 I'd be stuck

01:07:51.860 in a TV series

01:07:53.180 playing a

01:07:54.000 negative woman 1.00

01:07:55.040 who at least

01:07:55.960 in the writing

01:07:56.580 showed no

01:07:57.300 sense of her

01:07:57.880 own strength.

01:07:59.160 That's fascinating

01:08:00.120 to me.

01:08:00.780 A negative

01:08:01.700 woman.

01:08:02.240 What do you

01:08:02.540 mean by that?

01:08:04.300 Well,

01:08:04.600 in the original

01:08:05.480 pilot,

01:08:06.600 the character

01:08:08.320 was reluctant

01:08:10.720 to leave

01:08:11.400 home.

01:08:12.800 She was

01:08:13.620 kind of

01:08:15.160 prudish

01:08:15.880 when the

01:08:17.660 father figures

01:08:19.000 talks about

01:08:20.280 the gender

01:08:20.860 of the

01:08:21.360 horses.

01:08:22.540 She's

01:08:23.040 disapproving.

01:08:25.700 When he's

01:08:26.820 looking out

01:08:27.680 at the

01:08:28.640 vast land

01:08:30.760 and says,

01:08:31.680 Carolyn,

01:08:32.520 we're home.

01:08:34.400 She's like,

01:08:35.660 oh,

01:08:36.020 really?

01:08:37.220 So I

01:08:38.460 thought,

01:08:39.580 hmm,

01:08:40.400 he's this

01:08:41.360 young,

01:08:42.880 vivacious,

01:08:44.780 handsome,

01:08:45.880 violin-playing

01:08:47.060 father.

01:08:48.400 And she's

01:08:49.400 like,

01:08:49.860 tsk,

01:08:50.740 tsk,

01:08:51.100 you know.

01:08:52.300 But what

01:08:53.080 happened was

01:08:54.640 that on the

01:08:55.200 very first

01:08:55.880 day of the

01:08:56.540 pilot,

01:08:57.500 and you

01:08:57.980 know,

01:08:58.220 I didn't

01:08:58.600 know these

01:08:59.100 books before

01:08:59.980 we started,

01:09:01.060 so I was

01:09:01.620 playing catch-up,

01:09:02.820 reading while

01:09:03.920 we were

01:09:04.320 shooting.

01:09:06.040 On the

01:09:06.760 very first

01:09:07.380 day,

01:09:07.780 there was

01:09:08.140 this little

01:09:08.660 cabin where

01:09:10.560 Carolyn's

01:09:11.680 parents supposedly

01:09:13.140 lived,

01:09:13.740 and she

01:09:14.920 was going

01:09:15.360 to be

01:09:15.660 saying

01:09:16.000 goodbye

01:09:16.380 to them

01:09:17.060 and

01:09:18.020 probably

01:09:18.620 never

01:09:19.600 see them

01:09:20.180 again.

01:09:21.620 And I

01:09:22.480 got it.

01:09:23.820 Oh,

01:09:24.600 my word.

01:09:25.860 And now

01:09:26.400 she's going

01:09:26.920 to take

01:09:27.380 her three

01:09:28.320 little

01:09:29.080 girls 0.98

01:09:29.660 and put

01:09:31.000 them in

01:09:31.340 the back

01:09:31.800 of a

01:09:32.100 wagon

01:09:32.440 and go

01:09:33.760 God knows

01:09:34.840 where

01:09:35.260 with all

01:09:37.140 kinds of

01:09:37.740 dangers out

01:09:38.520 there.

01:09:39.780 So all

01:09:40.860 of a sudden

01:09:41.320 I realized

01:09:41.960 this is a

01:09:42.540 woman who 0.99

01:09:43.020 is being

01:09:44.400 very brave,

01:09:46.140 very loyal

01:09:47.220 to her

01:09:47.940 husband's

01:09:48.540 wish to

01:09:49.020 move on.

01:09:50.560 And my

01:09:51.560 respect for

01:09:52.440 her began

01:09:53.080 right there.

01:09:54.420 That's so

01:09:55.220 interesting.

01:09:56.680 Fascinating.

01:09:57.480 Equally

01:09:58.040 interesting is

01:09:59.080 the fact that

01:09:59.600 that loyalty

01:10:00.160 would not

01:10:01.340 necessarily

01:10:01.940 last,

01:10:03.340 Missy,

01:10:03.900 because Carolyn

01:10:04.940 Ingalls had

01:10:05.880 her eye on

01:10:06.740 the handyman

01:10:07.540 in one

01:10:08.060 episode,

01:10:08.500 rather he

01:10:08.980 had his

01:10:09.340 eye on

01:10:09.680 her.

01:10:10.800 And I'm

01:10:11.740 very familiar

01:10:12.220 with the

01:10:12.500 episode and

01:10:13.060 I learned

01:10:13.680 from your

01:10:14.120 book that

01:10:14.660 so there

01:10:15.420 was something

01:10:15.900 going on

01:10:16.360 behind the

01:10:16.820 scenes there

01:10:17.400 between you

01:10:18.480 and Gil

01:10:19.180 Gerard,

01:10:20.380 better known

01:10:20.980 to the world

01:10:21.400 as Buck

01:10:21.820 Rogers,

01:10:22.660 who guested

01:10:24.460 on the

01:10:25.180 show.

01:10:25.980 I'm going

01:10:26.180 to show

01:10:26.440 the audience

01:10:26.980 the scene.

01:10:27.740 They can

01:10:27.980 listen and

01:10:28.500 the YouTube

01:10:28.980 audience can

01:10:29.580 see because

01:10:30.140 Gil was pretty

01:10:30.760 nice to look

01:10:31.220 at.

01:10:32.140 And Karen

01:10:32.900 thought so

01:10:33.880 too.

01:10:34.500 Watch this.

01:10:37.240 Oh,

01:10:37.680 but I didn't

01:10:37.860 start you,

01:10:38.240 ma'am.

01:10:39.040 Who are

01:10:39.500 you?

01:10:40.100 The name's

01:10:40.600 Nelson,

01:10:41.540 Chris Nelson.

01:10:42.840 I answer

01:10:43.260 easier to

01:10:43.680 Chris.

01:10:44.940 And you'd

01:10:45.680 be Miss

01:10:46.060 Ingalls now,

01:10:46.620 wouldn't you?

01:10:48.660 I heard

01:10:49.820 you might be

01:10:50.140 needing some

01:10:50.460 help.

01:10:51.280 I'm a

01:10:51.660 handyman,

01:10:52.140 General

01:10:52.340 Carpentry.

01:10:52.780 I bet

01:10:54.780 you are.

01:10:55.320 That went

01:10:58.400 really well

01:10:58.880 between you

01:10:59.460 as it

01:10:59.840 turns out.

01:11:01.460 That was

01:11:02.280 so much

01:11:02.940 fun for

01:11:03.440 me.

01:11:04.640 Really,

01:11:05.300 wasn't I

01:11:05.780 lucky to

01:11:06.220 have these

01:11:06.660 really handsome,

01:11:08.300 charming,

01:11:08.820 leading men?

01:11:09.580 I mean,

01:11:09.940 really

01:11:10.340 unbelievable.

01:11:11.280 So what

01:11:13.700 happened?

01:11:14.280 Because you

01:11:14.720 were your

01:11:15.260 character in

01:11:16.300 that episode,

01:11:16.960 Michael Landon's

01:11:17.580 character is

01:11:17.940 away.

01:11:18.180 We started

01:11:18.320 to date,

01:11:19.400 you know,

01:11:19.800 what can I

01:11:20.340 say?

01:11:21.340 We started

01:11:22.120 to date and

01:11:23.520 he was really

01:11:25.900 a great guy

01:11:26.980 and then we

01:11:27.820 became friends.

01:11:29.300 It did not

01:11:29.880 last.

01:11:31.620 But this was

01:11:32.920 not all

01:11:33.700 positive for

01:11:34.540 you.

01:11:34.880 This wound

01:11:35.320 up becoming

01:11:35.820 sort of an

01:11:36.280 aha moment

01:11:36.980 in your life

01:11:37.820 from what I

01:11:39.000 read.

01:11:39.400 Why is

01:11:40.220 that?

01:11:41.700 Well,

01:11:42.140 this was at

01:11:42.700 the end of

01:11:43.180 my drinking,

01:11:44.020 Megan.

01:11:45.120 And so

01:11:45.820 this behavior

01:11:46.880 of rushing

01:11:48.700 from a

01:11:49.600 drink to

01:11:50.400 a man to

01:11:51.940 other solutions,

01:11:53.480 whatever I

01:11:54.100 might be

01:11:55.360 thinking I

01:11:56.120 needed,

01:11:57.180 had to

01:11:59.060 stop.

01:11:59.780 I needed

01:12:00.580 to stop

01:12:01.260 and take a

01:12:01.900 deep look at

01:12:02.660 Karen and

01:12:04.420 see my

01:12:05.120 part in

01:12:06.900 what I

01:12:07.420 thought were

01:12:07.780 my troubles.

01:12:09.400 And stop

01:12:11.000 looking outside

01:12:12.020 of myself to

01:12:13.060 blame other

01:12:13.560 people.

01:12:14.600 Stop

01:12:15.240 rationalizing,

01:12:16.600 you know,

01:12:16.980 you'd drink

01:12:17.560 too if they

01:12:18.940 didn't settle

01:12:19.520 your contract

01:12:20.360 and stuff

01:12:21.060 like that.

01:12:22.120 And come

01:12:23.280 to terms

01:12:24.060 with myself

01:12:25.800 and get

01:12:26.260 honest.

01:12:27.520 And so

01:12:28.060 I had to

01:12:29.240 face my

01:12:30.520 alcoholism.

01:12:32.280 Is it true

01:12:33.100 that you

01:12:33.540 initially did

01:12:35.300 therapy,

01:12:36.320 but then

01:12:36.700 your program

01:12:37.820 grew?

01:12:38.160 I did

01:12:40.020 a lot of

01:12:40.580 therapy

01:12:41.120 over my

01:12:42.280 whole life.

01:12:43.720 I've had

01:12:44.540 more help

01:12:45.200 than most

01:12:45.740 people,

01:12:46.480 but I've

01:12:46.920 needed it.

01:12:47.780 I needed

01:12:49.420 a lot of

01:12:50.040 help.

01:12:51.640 That serene

01:12:52.840 look that

01:12:53.480 Ma has 0.77

01:12:54.220 required a

01:12:55.260 lot of

01:12:55.560 help.

01:12:56.120 Right,

01:12:56.420 that was

01:12:56.660 great acting.

01:12:59.040 Right.

01:12:59.680 so I'd

01:13:02.260 had a lot

01:13:02.700 of therapy

01:13:03.120 over the

01:13:03.620 years.

01:13:05.160 And when

01:13:05.940 it was

01:13:06.280 time for

01:13:06.860 me to

01:13:07.280 stop

01:13:07.540 drinking,

01:13:08.540 I knew

01:13:09.080 I had

01:13:09.480 to go

01:13:09.720 to the

01:13:10.020 people who

01:13:10.540 knew how

01:13:11.420 not to

01:13:12.060 do that

01:13:12.900 because I

01:13:14.720 didn't know

01:13:15.320 how.

01:13:16.840 My dad

01:13:17.380 didn't know

01:13:17.940 how,

01:13:18.980 you know.

01:13:19.460 So did

01:13:20.860 you go

01:13:21.160 in Hollywood

01:13:21.680 as a

01:13:22.160 star?

01:13:25.280 Yeah.

01:13:26.460 Was that

01:13:27.120 hard,

01:13:27.660 right?

01:13:27.920 You walk

01:13:28.360 in and

01:13:28.760 most people

01:13:29.200 have their

01:13:29.560 anonymity,

01:13:30.300 but you

01:13:30.540 do not.

01:13:32.400 Well,

01:13:33.640 I won't

01:13:34.220 go too

01:13:34.600 much into

01:13:35.060 that,

01:13:36.260 but I

01:13:37.400 knew that

01:13:39.280 I had to

01:13:40.260 get humble

01:13:40.860 about my

01:13:42.440 need for

01:13:42.940 help and

01:13:44.680 I had to

01:13:45.160 put it

01:13:45.480 first and

01:13:46.900 everything else

01:13:47.620 had to fall

01:13:48.140 behind that.

01:13:50.460 Good.

01:13:51.060 And you

01:13:51.340 managed it.

01:13:52.200 I mean,

01:13:52.400 so many

01:13:52.760 people try

01:13:53.300 and fail

01:13:53.660 and try

01:13:54.040 and fail

01:13:54.820 and try

01:13:55.100 and fail

01:13:55.360 again and

01:13:55.740 then ultimately

01:13:56.300 do succeed,

01:13:57.080 but yours

01:13:58.360 has been a

01:13:59.240 success story.

01:14:01.080 Had you

01:14:01.880 managed to

01:14:02.440 get sober

01:14:03.160 by the end

01:14:03.680 of the

01:14:03.940 series?

01:14:05.540 Oh,

01:14:05.740 no,

01:14:05.980 I got

01:14:06.280 sober right

01:14:06.820 away.

01:14:07.980 Okay,

01:14:08.300 so it was

01:14:08.520 right then,

01:14:08.920 right after

01:14:09.200 Gil.

01:14:10.320 Right.

01:14:11.520 I would

01:14:11.960 say about

01:14:12.940 two weeks

01:14:13.480 after the

01:14:13.980 handyman

01:14:14.540 was shot,

01:14:15.760 I was

01:14:16.120 sober and

01:14:17.340 in withdrawal.

01:14:19.460 So I

01:14:20.540 began my

01:14:21.340 new life

01:14:22.220 then and

01:14:23.560 I had just

01:14:24.240 moved into

01:14:25.000 my first

01:14:25.720 home so

01:14:27.100 I had a

01:14:27.680 completely

01:14:28.280 fresh space.

01:14:32.080 All the

01:14:32.380 walls were

01:14:32.960 white.

01:14:33.900 I had a

01:14:34.280 swimming pool

01:14:35.100 and I could

01:14:36.420 take really

01:14:37.080 good care of

01:14:37.700 myself,

01:14:38.340 you know,

01:14:38.680 and build

01:14:39.140 this new

01:14:39.640 life.

01:14:41.040 What did

01:14:41.800 you make

01:14:42.260 of the

01:14:43.080 dynamic on

01:14:43.760 the set

01:14:44.180 between you,

01:14:45.240 I mean,

01:14:45.380 explain it to

01:14:45.900 us between

01:14:46.520 you and

01:14:46.960 the actors

01:14:47.840 and actresses

01:14:48.400 who played

01:14:48.860 your children

01:14:49.700 and full

01:14:50.360 disclosure,

01:14:51.260 one of

01:14:51.860 them is

01:14:52.640 one of

01:14:53.120 my closest

01:14:53.640 friends,

01:14:55.160 Melissa

01:14:55.620 Francis,

01:14:56.240 who came

01:14:56.960 in as a

01:14:57.380 second wave

01:14:58.520 of Ingalls

01:14:59.060 children and

01:14:59.700 played

01:15:00.040 Cassandra.

01:15:01.340 So you've

01:15:01.720 got to give

01:15:02.020 me some

01:15:02.320 dirt on her 0.99

01:15:02.940 at some

01:15:03.240 point,

01:15:03.500 but let's

01:15:03.760 just start

01:15:04.100 wide.

01:15:05.500 Melissa

01:15:05.840 Gilbert,

01:15:06.520 Melissa

01:15:06.780 Sue

01:15:07.020 Anderson.

01:15:07.580 I mean,

01:15:08.100 I feel

01:15:09.180 like I

01:15:09.400 grew up

01:15:09.740 with them.

01:15:10.800 What were

01:15:11.080 they like?

01:15:11.740 They were

01:15:12.500 incredibly

01:15:12.920 talented.

01:15:14.620 Incredibly

01:15:15.100 talented in

01:15:16.760 being raised

01:15:19.020 under so

01:15:19.720 much pressure.

01:15:21.120 Everybody

01:15:21.520 says,

01:15:22.800 oh,

01:15:23.160 you know,

01:15:23.600 the little

01:15:23.960 house set

01:15:24.480 was just

01:15:24.860 like a

01:15:25.220 big family

01:15:25.920 and I

01:15:27.480 didn't miss

01:15:28.180 my childhood

01:15:29.180 and things

01:15:30.820 like that.

01:15:31.540 But from

01:15:32.380 my point

01:15:32.880 of view,

01:15:33.280 having had

01:15:33.840 a childhood

01:15:34.400 that was

01:15:34.940 free,

01:15:35.860 where I

01:15:36.560 didn't have

01:15:37.060 hours and

01:15:38.580 I didn't

01:15:39.100 have work

01:15:40.680 and I

01:15:41.340 wasn't required

01:15:42.360 to be on

01:15:43.820 it when

01:15:44.600 they said

01:15:45.080 action.

01:15:46.380 I don't

01:15:47.180 think that

01:15:47.640 was a

01:15:48.420 very free

01:15:49.060 childhood.

01:15:50.680 And I

01:15:51.040 think if

01:15:51.500 you ask

01:15:51.920 them now,

01:15:52.640 they might

01:15:53.060 say something

01:15:53.760 different.

01:15:55.240 Yeah.

01:15:55.800 So I

01:15:56.860 love these

01:15:57.440 children.

01:15:58.520 I mean,

01:15:59.100 I was very

01:16:00.220 fond of

01:16:01.260 kids all

01:16:01.900 my life and

01:16:03.100 it meant a

01:16:04.240 lot to me

01:16:04.960 to be able

01:16:05.700 to have

01:16:06.240 kids in

01:16:06.840 my life.

01:16:07.620 You know,

01:16:07.900 you don't

01:16:08.220 always get

01:16:08.860 that in

01:16:09.280 the theater.

01:16:09.820 So I

01:16:11.920 felt like I

01:16:12.780 was watching

01:16:13.860 them grow

01:16:14.580 up and

01:16:15.820 to whatever

01:16:16.600 degree I

01:16:17.320 could,

01:16:19.220 offering

01:16:19.760 them some

01:16:21.480 safety,

01:16:22.840 some support

01:16:24.380 as things

01:16:26.260 went along.

01:16:28.120 Melissa

01:16:28.760 Francis,

01:16:29.520 my friend,

01:16:30.760 she worked 0.95

01:16:31.160 with me at

01:16:31.460 Fox News for

01:16:32.440 years and

01:16:33.000 at CNBC

01:16:33.700 before that,

01:16:34.380 but her

01:16:35.120 book was

01:16:35.500 called Diary

01:16:36.220 of a

01:16:36.640 Stage Mother's

01:16:37.380 Daughter.

01:16:37.720 And she

01:16:38.660 certainly does

01:16:39.220 talk about

01:16:39.680 how she

01:16:40.020 was very

01:16:40.560 much pushed

01:16:41.080 into this

01:16:41.500 line of

01:16:41.860 work and

01:16:42.280 she wound 0.91

01:16:42.620 up pairing

01:16:43.020 with Justin

01:16:44.140 Bateman on

01:16:45.320 Little House

01:16:45.920 as the sort

01:16:46.880 of next

01:16:47.540 wave of

01:16:48.000 Ingalls

01:16:48.280 children once

01:16:49.020 the first

01:16:49.600 wave got

01:16:50.060 a little

01:16:50.340 too old

01:16:50.840 to play

01:16:51.840 the cute

01:16:52.240 little,

01:16:52.680 you know,

01:16:52.980 children in

01:16:53.580 the cabin.

01:16:54.940 But it

01:16:56.300 makes me

01:16:56.620 wonder whether

01:16:56.960 you keep in

01:16:57.380 touch with

01:16:57.680 any of them.

01:16:58.280 You know,

01:16:58.360 like when you

01:16:58.640 see Jason

01:16:59.140 Bateman in

01:16:59.800 these movies,

01:17:01.060 do you still

01:17:01.640 know each

01:17:02.000 other?

01:17:03.400 Well,

01:17:04.060 first of all,

01:17:04.740 I want to

01:17:05.100 say that

01:17:05.600 Melissa

01:17:06.000 Francis' 0.87

01:17:06.760 book,

01:17:07.120 I think,

01:17:07.440 is excellent.

01:17:08.760 Oh,

01:17:09.120 I'm so glad

01:17:09.560 you read it.

01:17:10.780 I read it.

01:17:11.520 I admire it.

01:17:12.900 I couldn't

01:17:13.460 find where

01:17:14.000 to write

01:17:14.420 to her,

01:17:15.020 so I

01:17:15.440 didn't write

01:17:16.060 to her,

01:17:16.560 but I

01:17:16.840 wanted to

01:17:17.380 congratulate

01:17:17.900 her,

01:17:18.780 not only

01:17:19.440 on the

01:17:20.220 excellence

01:17:21.100 of the

01:17:21.720 writing,

01:17:22.260 but also

01:17:22.880 on what

01:17:23.420 she says

01:17:23.960 about

01:17:24.300 parenting,

01:17:25.720 that with

01:17:26.460 each child,

01:17:27.660 a different

01:17:28.120 style of

01:17:28.840 parenting can

01:17:29.580 be necessary.

01:17:31.080 I just

01:17:31.780 thought it

01:17:32.060 was so

01:17:32.460 insightful.

01:17:34.300 My heart

01:17:34.980 went out

01:17:35.460 to her.

01:17:35.940 as far

01:17:37.380 as Jason

01:17:38.580 and

01:17:39.280 Melissa

01:17:39.980 Francis

01:17:40.480 are

01:17:40.780 concerned,

01:17:41.860 you know,

01:17:42.120 they came

01:17:42.580 on at the

01:17:43.120 very end

01:17:43.760 of the

01:17:44.100 show when

01:17:45.260 I had

01:17:45.700 already

01:17:46.280 given my

01:17:47.040 notice,

01:17:47.620 and I

01:17:48.660 knew I

01:17:49.080 was out

01:17:49.700 the door,

01:17:50.620 so I

01:17:51.940 did not

01:17:52.480 really get

01:17:53.220 that close

01:17:53.860 to them

01:17:54.380 because it

01:17:55.520 was going

01:17:55.920 to be one

01:17:56.640 more goodbye,

01:17:57.620 so I

01:18:00.640 never

01:18:01.620 really,

01:18:02.200 you know,

01:18:02.500 I had

01:18:02.760 one season

01:18:03.500 with them.

01:18:04.700 It didn't

01:18:05.680 really become

01:18:08.200 like friends.

01:18:10.040 Yeah.

01:18:10.380 You know,

01:18:11.420 I liked

01:18:12.120 them.

01:18:13.060 They were

01:18:13.780 sweet.

01:18:15.160 I remember

01:18:16.320 her with 0.76

01:18:17.140 her little

01:18:17.700 Persian cat.

01:18:20.300 She needed

01:18:21.000 that little

01:18:22.540 cat.

01:18:23.240 Anyway,

01:18:26.600 the other

01:18:28.920 girls, 0.91

01:18:29.920 you know,

01:18:30.300 and Matt,

01:18:31.820 you know,

01:18:32.920 was years

01:18:33.800 with them,

01:18:35.140 so I

01:18:35.760 had much

01:18:36.260 more of a

01:18:36.900 relationship

01:18:37.640 with them.

01:18:38.760 Matt played

01:18:39.320 Albert.

01:18:40.680 What was

01:18:41.220 difficult

01:18:41.800 sometimes

01:18:42.540 was that

01:18:43.440 I

01:18:43.940 I

01:18:44.860 couldn't

01:18:45.620 be

01:18:47.440 their

01:18:47.840 parent.

01:18:48.740 I

01:18:48.800 couldn't

01:18:49.600 bring

01:18:50.800 them

01:18:51.360 my

01:18:52.480 understanding.

01:18:54.080 I had

01:18:55.080 to keep

01:18:55.560 certain

01:18:56.200 boundaries

01:18:56.900 because

01:18:57.940 they had

01:18:58.500 parents of

01:18:59.280 their own,

01:19:00.380 you know,

01:19:00.900 who had

01:19:01.480 who made

01:19:02.700 decisions

01:19:03.240 about their

01:19:03.920 careers,

01:19:05.440 their hours,

01:19:07.280 different

01:19:07.620 things,

01:19:08.220 you know,

01:19:08.540 that maybe

01:19:09.060 I would

01:19:09.920 have had a

01:19:10.300 different

01:19:10.560 opinion about.

01:19:12.400 Can I tell

01:19:13.080 you something

01:19:13.300 interesting?

01:19:13.940 This is

01:19:14.820 I'm just

01:19:15.180 going to

01:19:15.640 report from

01:19:16.360 what I

01:19:16.660 read in

01:19:17.020 the newspaper

01:19:17.440 here.

01:19:18.500 But Melissa

01:19:18.940 Francis,

01:19:19.500 you might

01:19:20.440 be interested

01:19:20.880 to know,

01:19:22.020 went on

01:19:22.920 to allegedly

01:19:24.420 file a

01:19:26.500 pay

01:19:26.820 discrimination

01:19:27.340 claim against

01:19:28.300 Fox News

01:19:28.920 for not being

01:19:29.560 paid what

01:19:30.420 she claimed

01:19:30.840 was an

01:19:31.260 equal amount

01:19:31.840 to her

01:19:32.180 male counterparts

01:19:33.300 there.

01:19:34.560 And it's

01:19:35.660 just now

01:19:36.040 striking me

01:19:36.700 that the

01:19:37.140 parallels,

01:19:37.880 if that is

01:19:38.620 true,

01:19:39.300 between her 0.65

01:19:40.800 situation,

01:19:41.640 your one-time

01:19:42.260 television

01:19:42.800 daughter,

01:19:43.220 and your

01:19:44.700 situation.

01:19:46.480 And it's

01:19:47.900 like,

01:19:48.220 here we are

01:19:49.360 a generation

01:19:50.120 plus later,

01:19:51.980 women are 1.00

01:19:52.340 still dealing

01:19:52.840 with this

01:19:53.320 in some

01:19:53.680 corners,

01:19:54.060 not everywhere,

01:19:54.980 but they're

01:19:55.180 still dealing

01:19:55.600 with it.

01:19:55.900 But it did

01:19:56.820 take people

01:19:57.340 like you

01:19:57.920 to at a

01:19:58.940 time when

01:19:59.420 it was

01:20:00.340 far less

01:20:01.200 favorable to

01:20:01.820 stand up for

01:20:02.280 yourself to

01:20:03.380 do that,

01:20:03.960 right?

01:20:04.180 To sort of

01:20:04.820 give people

01:20:05.160 the idea

01:20:05.520 that it

01:20:06.320 was doable.

01:20:07.680 And I

01:20:08.760 love Michael

01:20:09.300 Landon,

01:20:09.540 and I'll

01:20:09.780 always love

01:20:10.160 Michael Landon,

01:20:10.980 notwithstanding

01:20:11.820 any of this,

01:20:12.640 but I think

01:20:13.040 we can still

01:20:13.640 love him

01:20:14.100 appreciating

01:20:14.960 warts and

01:20:16.540 all.

01:20:16.840 I think it's

01:20:17.200 important to

01:20:17.640 expose those,

01:20:18.400 though.

01:20:18.560 It's okay

01:20:19.260 to talk about

01:20:20.340 the downsides

01:20:21.120 of working with

01:20:22.380 him and being

01:20:22.880 with him,

01:20:23.300 and you can

01:20:23.820 still wind up

01:20:24.500 loving him.

01:20:25.720 Exactly.

01:20:26.660 I mean,

01:20:27.040 I cared

01:20:29.000 for Michael,

01:20:30.000 and I am

01:20:31.720 no way

01:20:32.580 dismissing his

01:20:34.060 contribution.

01:20:36.480 I'm just

01:20:37.360 saying this

01:20:38.460 is what

01:20:38.840 happened,

01:20:39.640 and this

01:20:40.220 is what I

01:20:40.700 had to do

01:20:41.260 about it.

01:20:42.160 You know,

01:20:42.760 this was also

01:20:43.760 the price I

01:20:44.480 paid for

01:20:45.420 doing something

01:20:46.120 about it.

01:20:47.020 The incredible

01:20:47.760 shrinking part

01:20:48.760 where it was

01:20:49.340 just Ma

01:20:49.820 serving coffee

01:20:50.700 in this

01:20:51.620 entire episode.

01:20:52.600 Just bring

01:20:53.140 the coffee

01:20:53.660 while everyone

01:20:54.700 else is the

01:20:55.280 star, and

01:20:55.820 then, you

01:20:56.660 know,

01:20:57.040 when you

01:20:57.860 lower your

01:20:58.460 demands,

01:20:58.960 maybe you

01:20:59.280 can actually

01:20:59.660 have lines

01:21:00.060 again.

01:21:01.640 Can we

01:21:02.400 talk about

01:21:04.140 whether there's

01:21:05.520 anybody who

01:21:06.000 you didn't

01:21:06.480 like?

01:21:06.820 Now, I know

01:21:07.080 you and

01:21:07.300 Michael had

01:21:08.060 your problems,

01:21:09.140 but was there

01:21:09.600 anybody, like,

01:21:10.780 tell me,

01:21:11.220 Miss Beetle was 1.00

01:21:11.840 a bitch, 1.00

01:21:12.280 wasn't she? 1.00

01:21:12.900 Come on,

01:21:13.180 you can give

01:21:13.560 it to me

01:21:13.860 straight.

01:21:14.800 You know

01:21:15.180 what?

01:21:16.060 They were

01:21:16.400 all nice

01:21:16.940 people.

01:21:17.900 Reverend

01:21:18.100 Alden,

01:21:19.560 Doc Baker,

01:21:20.440 somebody.

01:21:21.760 Reverend

01:21:22.140 Alden was

01:21:22.860 like a

01:21:23.340 saint.

01:21:23.880 He took

01:21:24.160 care of his

01:21:24.660 own mother,

01:21:25.440 you know.

01:21:26.340 I mean,

01:21:26.860 yeah,

01:21:28.300 Charlotte

01:21:28.760 Stewart and

01:21:29.360 I became

01:21:29.820 friends on

01:21:30.480 the show

01:21:30.920 as well.

01:21:31.300 That's Miss 0.99

01:21:31.820 Beetle.

01:21:32.100 And the

01:21:32.460 children were

01:21:33.440 amazing.

01:21:34.960 There was

01:21:35.200 no brat.

01:21:37.720 Oh, no.

01:21:39.260 It's amazing

01:21:39.880 because Allison, 0.91

01:21:41.020 who played

01:21:41.360 Nellie Olsen,

01:21:42.000 she's the 0.99

01:21:42.660 farthest thing

01:21:43.120 you can get 0.85

01:21:43.480 from a brat.

01:21:44.180 Her book is

01:21:44.960 also amazing,

01:21:45.680 Confessions of

01:21:46.320 a Prairie 1.00

01:21:46.760 Bitch, and 1.00

01:21:48.020 she had a 1.00

01:21:48.580 hell of a

01:21:48.920 childhood as

01:21:49.480 well, but

01:21:50.120 she's got a 0.79

01:21:50.680 sense of humor

01:21:51.200 about it,

01:21:51.960 right?

01:21:52.180 She's great.

01:21:52.880 And she

01:21:53.140 backs you

01:21:53.840 up in

01:21:54.060 what you

01:21:54.280 said.

01:21:55.500 Well, you

01:21:56.160 know, the

01:21:57.120 kids were

01:21:57.680 mostly not

01:21:58.480 around when

01:21:59.200 this behavior

01:22:00.000 went on.

01:22:01.200 If they were

01:22:02.020 to look at

01:22:02.700 the shows

01:22:03.340 and see

01:22:04.060 what was

01:22:04.520 happening with

01:22:05.260 my part,

01:22:06.100 maybe they

01:22:06.580 would notice

01:22:07.260 it.

01:22:08.240 But in

01:22:09.400 fact, I

01:22:10.500 didn't want

01:22:11.720 to air

01:22:12.660 this with

01:22:13.360 them or

01:22:15.040 with the

01:22:15.600 press because

01:22:17.440 I felt if

01:22:18.220 you're on

01:22:18.720 the show,

01:22:19.200 you're on

01:22:19.700 the show,

01:22:20.620 you know,

01:22:21.120 you hold

01:22:22.160 up your

01:22:22.560 end.

01:22:24.580 So I

01:22:26.140 guess the

01:22:26.680 thing about

01:22:27.280 the girls 0.99

01:22:28.020 was that I

01:22:28.980 felt very

01:22:30.300 protective of

01:22:31.360 them.

01:22:32.700 And there

01:22:33.540 were so many

01:22:34.220 ways in

01:22:34.800 which I

01:22:35.340 couldn't

01:22:35.900 protect them.

01:22:38.060 Well, because

01:22:38.340 the book also

01:22:38.940 exposes that

01:22:39.620 Michael, you

01:22:40.400 know, the

01:22:40.680 atmosphere on

01:22:42.340 set, you

01:22:42.960 know, there's

01:22:43.460 an example of

01:22:44.160 him talking

01:22:44.640 about women's

01:22:45.520 body parts

01:22:46.520 and dropping

01:22:46.920 the C word

01:22:47.620 and, you

01:22:48.680 know, there's

01:22:48.880 not around

01:22:49.740 them, never

01:22:50.780 around the

01:22:51.440 children.

01:22:52.380 No, Little

01:22:53.060 House was

01:22:53.640 really clean.

01:22:56.800 Whenever the

01:22:57.420 children were

01:22:58.000 present, people

01:22:58.740 weren't even

01:22:59.280 swearing.

01:23:01.020 I mean, we

01:23:01.480 all smoked

01:23:02.220 cigarettes like

01:23:03.360 it was going

01:23:04.060 out of style,

01:23:05.100 which was

01:23:06.160 terrible for

01:23:06.760 them.

01:23:07.280 But no,

01:23:08.700 there was an

01:23:09.400 atmosphere that

01:23:10.220 was wholesome

01:23:10.880 specifically for

01:23:13.140 the children.

01:23:14.960 What about,

01:23:16.280 speaking of

01:23:17.100 cigarettes, Michael

01:23:17.800 Landon,

01:23:18.300 and his

01:23:19.160 untimely

01:23:19.960 death at

01:23:20.500 age 55

01:23:21.680 too soon

01:23:23.440 of pancreatic

01:23:25.640 cancer?

01:23:26.720 And had

01:23:27.260 you gotten

01:23:27.600 the chance

01:23:27.960 to talk

01:23:28.360 with him

01:23:28.740 prior to

01:23:29.380 his death?

01:23:30.880 Oh, yes,

01:23:31.480 fortunately.

01:23:33.120 I had

01:23:33.800 written to

01:23:34.380 him.

01:23:34.760 I was

01:23:35.040 living out

01:23:35.500 of state

01:23:35.980 and I

01:23:36.900 had written

01:23:37.480 to him

01:23:37.880 just to

01:23:38.340 say, you

01:23:38.840 know, this

01:23:39.200 is where I

01:23:39.760 am and

01:23:40.200 what's going

01:23:40.700 on in my

01:23:41.200 life.

01:23:41.740 And he

01:23:42.900 wrote back

01:23:43.500 and he

01:23:43.760 said, give

01:23:44.200 me a call

01:23:44.720 sometimes so

01:23:45.560 we can

01:23:45.880 talk over

01:23:46.540 old times

01:23:47.540 before we

01:23:48.480 both forget

01:23:49.140 them.

01:23:50.420 And so I

01:23:51.220 did give him

01:23:51.900 a call and

01:23:53.080 we had such

01:23:54.380 a nice

01:23:54.960 visit.

01:23:56.120 We didn't

01:23:56.820 relate at

01:23:57.380 all to

01:23:58.280 the old

01:23:59.100 stuff.

01:23:59.820 We just

01:24:00.580 picked up

01:24:01.180 right where

01:24:01.600 we were.

01:24:03.000 And it

01:24:03.840 was so

01:24:04.780 great to

01:24:06.580 hear about

01:24:07.120 his new

01:24:08.000 life, his

01:24:08.860 new family,

01:24:10.660 how happy

01:24:11.580 he was.

01:24:12.460 He had

01:24:12.740 a new

01:24:13.300 hit series

01:24:14.960 and, you

01:24:16.680 know, everything

01:24:17.280 was right

01:24:17.960 with his

01:24:18.340 world.

01:24:20.060 And it

01:24:20.880 was great

01:24:21.560 because we

01:24:23.240 mended our

01:24:24.220 fences so I

01:24:25.420 didn't have

01:24:26.080 that residue

01:24:26.980 of regret

01:24:29.840 or recrimination

01:24:31.040 when he was

01:24:32.920 diagnosed.

01:24:33.880 I was like,

01:24:34.620 oh, my

01:24:35.300 God, thank

01:24:36.120 God we've

01:24:36.780 already settled

01:24:37.500 this.

01:24:38.540 Thank God.

01:24:39.340 What about

01:24:39.960 your real

01:24:40.380 life?

01:24:40.640 What does

01:24:41.000 your family

01:24:41.440 life look

01:24:42.040 like now?

01:24:43.540 I have a

01:24:44.280 son.

01:24:45.180 I'm very

01:24:45.560 proud of

01:24:46.080 him.

01:24:47.920 Oops, sorry.

01:24:50.100 And this

01:24:52.160 book has

01:24:53.820 taken up a

01:24:54.900 lot of my

01:24:55.420 energy for

01:24:56.140 the last

01:24:56.680 six months

01:24:57.700 or year,

01:24:59.120 getting ready

01:25:00.000 for the

01:25:00.740 release and

01:25:01.940 talking with

01:25:03.380 people about

01:25:04.260 it.

01:25:05.160 And it's

01:25:05.820 been so

01:25:07.140 rewarding

01:25:08.000 because I

01:25:09.820 really,

01:25:10.180 I really

01:25:11.320 didn't get

01:25:11.980 it that

01:25:13.300 Ma had 0.69

01:25:14.140 imprinted on

01:25:16.000 people's

01:25:16.500 hearts and

01:25:18.040 that the

01:25:20.060 character had

01:25:21.120 come through

01:25:22.560 in this

01:25:23.040 powerful way

01:25:24.320 so that when

01:25:26.520 the book

01:25:27.080 started to be

01:25:27.900 released, I

01:25:29.480 started to get

01:25:30.220 this tremendous

01:25:31.160 wave of

01:25:32.940 appreciation for

01:25:34.300 Ma.

01:25:34.720 people.

01:25:35.280 And I, you

01:25:37.380 know, it's

01:25:37.580 very rewarding,

01:25:38.620 isn't it,

01:25:39.100 Megan, when

01:25:39.520 you find out

01:25:40.060 your work

01:25:40.600 matters to

01:25:41.980 people.

01:25:42.640 It's just,

01:25:43.360 yeah.

01:25:44.200 Well, I

01:25:45.820 originally, I

01:25:46.480 read some

01:25:46.820 reports saying

01:25:47.400 some of the

01:25:47.740 other actors

01:25:48.300 were mad

01:25:48.800 about shots

01:25:49.900 at Michael

01:25:50.400 Landon, and

01:25:50.900 then when I

01:25:51.260 had my team

01:25:51.780 do some

01:25:52.160 digging, all

01:25:52.680 we found

01:25:53.100 was support

01:25:53.640 for you,

01:25:54.060 Karen, actor

01:25:55.320 after actor

01:25:55.860 who was

01:25:56.220 involved in

01:25:57.040 the series

01:25:57.380 saying, I

01:25:58.020 know what

01:25:58.520 she's talking

01:25:58.880 about, that's

01:25:59.780 legit, but

01:26:02.040 overall having a

01:26:03.560 great experience

01:26:04.180 on the set and

01:26:04.760 certainly with

01:26:05.920 you.

01:26:07.280 I love

01:26:08.480 this.

01:26:08.860 I love

01:26:09.200 meeting you.

01:26:09.920 All I can

01:26:10.360 say to you

01:26:10.800 is thank you

01:26:11.700 so much for

01:26:12.600 so many positive

01:26:13.700 experiences.

01:26:14.440 It was next to

01:26:15.440 church in my

01:26:16.480 book for me,

01:26:18.060 my best friend

01:26:18.620 Kelly, my

01:26:19.560 mom, my

01:26:20.160 older sister,

01:26:20.980 we watched

01:26:21.780 you religiously.

01:26:22.760 So it's a real

01:26:23.460 thrill to know

01:26:24.000 you.

01:26:25.040 Megan, thank

01:26:25.600 you so much.

01:26:26.820 Good luck.

01:26:27.800 All the best.

01:26:29.180 You too.

01:26:30.300 Okay, this is

01:26:30.920 like the most

01:26:31.380 amazing hour for

01:26:32.080 me because up

01:26:32.700 next, we are

01:26:34.200 going to revisit

01:26:34.840 my interview one

01:26:36.040 year ago with

01:26:37.280 two of the

01:26:37.800 stars from

01:26:38.680 Willy Wonka and

01:26:39.520 the Chocolate

01:26:39.960 Factory and

01:26:41.080 what I did

01:26:42.180 just a few

01:26:43.300 weeks ago.

01:26:44.700 I promise you,

01:26:46.200 you are not

01:26:47.020 going to want to

01:26:47.940 miss this.

01:26:48.640 Stay tuned.

01:26:53.540 This past

01:26:54.660 Thanksgiving, I

01:26:56.080 traveled to

01:26:56.600 London to make

01:26:57.280 one of my

01:26:57.740 childhood dreams

01:26:58.500 come true.

01:26:59.320 As some of you

01:27:00.360 might know, I

01:27:01.540 am a huge

01:27:03.800 fan of the

01:27:04.860 movie, Willy

01:27:05.860 Wonka and

01:27:06.340 the Chocolate

01:27:06.720 Factory.

01:27:07.580 Huge.

01:27:08.460 Possibly the

01:27:09.040 biggest fan

01:27:09.500 ever.

01:27:10.320 The music, the

01:27:11.320 morals, the

01:27:12.360 mischievous smile

01:27:13.580 of the late

01:27:14.160 Gene Wilder.

01:27:15.120 There is nothing

01:27:15.720 about this film

01:27:16.300 that I do not

01:27:16.800 love except

01:27:17.460 perhaps Charlie

01:27:18.820 Bucket's mom's 0.99

01:27:19.900 solo, but

01:27:21.580 onward.

01:27:22.620 Ever since I

01:27:23.280 started in this

01:27:23.840 business, on my

01:27:24.620 all-time dream

01:27:25.600 guest list, the

01:27:27.100 stars from the

01:27:28.220 original cast.

01:27:29.700 I don't need no

01:27:30.180 Johnny Depp.

01:27:31.020 Don't apply.

01:27:31.740 So last

01:27:33.100 December, my

01:27:34.400 team surprised

01:27:35.040 me with the

01:27:35.580 news that we

01:27:36.440 had booked

01:27:36.940 Peter Ostrom

01:27:38.220 and Julie

01:27:39.100 Dawn Cole.

01:27:40.700 Charlie Bucket

01:27:41.300 and Veruca

01:27:41.660 Salt.

01:27:42.360 OMG.

01:27:43.680 For the first

01:27:44.500 time ever in

01:27:45.420 an interview,

01:27:46.280 okay, I sat

01:27:47.420 down with them.

01:27:48.420 This is before we

01:27:49.040 had cameras, so

01:27:49.760 it was just

01:27:50.400 audio.

01:27:51.200 For the first

01:27:51.620 time ever in

01:27:52.660 an interview, I

01:27:53.760 cried before I

01:27:55.020 even got out the

01:27:55.700 first question.

01:27:56.400 And before the

01:27:58.540 interview ended, I

01:28:00.200 was given the

01:28:01.040 chance of a

01:28:02.100 lifetime, a

01:28:03.540 golden ticket, if

01:28:04.820 you will.

01:28:05.980 Watch.

01:28:07.380 Come with me

01:28:08.620 and you'll be

01:28:10.120 in a world of

01:28:12.900 pure imagination.

01:28:14.680 It's hard to

01:28:15.400 believe it's been

01:28:16.200 over 50 years

01:28:17.340 since the release

01:28:18.020 of Willy Wonka

01:28:18.620 and the Chocolate

01:28:19.080 Factory.

01:28:19.800 A story about a

01:28:21.120 sweet young, down

01:28:22.320 on his luck boy

01:28:23.080 named Charlie

01:28:23.700 Bucket, who

01:28:24.580 against all odds

01:28:25.680 finds one of

01:28:26.760 the coveted

01:28:27.400 golden tickets

01:28:28.280 and wins a

01:28:29.320 tour of Wonka's

01:28:30.380 mysterious Chocolate

01:28:31.380 Factory.

01:28:39.240 Oh my God.

01:28:41.900 Hello, Megan.

01:28:43.960 Oh my God.

01:28:45.680 I'm literally

01:28:46.300 crying.

01:28:47.040 I'm crying.

01:28:47.900 I have been

01:28:48.360 looking forward to

01:28:49.120 this my whole

01:28:50.020 life.

01:28:51.100 Peter Ostrom

01:28:51.940 and Julie Dawn

01:28:52.920 Cole were both

01:28:53.900 12 years old

01:28:55.000 when they won

01:28:55.860 the Rolls of a

01:28:57.060 Lifetime.

01:28:57.980 Don't care how

01:28:59.920 I want it now.

01:29:02.800 Mr. Wonka, they

01:29:03.940 won't really be

01:29:04.680 burned in the

01:29:05.240 furnace, will they?

01:29:06.100 What happened

01:29:06.540 there?

01:29:06.860 Did you really go

01:29:07.380 down something?

01:29:08.040 What was

01:29:08.440 underneath that

01:29:08.960 little trapdoor?

01:29:09.880 It depends how

01:29:10.760 old you are if you

01:29:11.640 ask that question

01:29:12.360 because that's the

01:29:12.920 question that lots

01:29:13.620 of the kids ask me.

01:29:14.480 Where did you go

01:29:15.120 to when you went

01:29:15.920 down the chute?

01:29:17.320 So I get asked

01:29:18.240 that a lot.

01:29:18.780 So if you're a

01:29:19.600 child, I will say,

01:29:20.600 well, luckily the

01:29:21.700 furnace wasn't lit.

01:29:22.580 You know, it's

01:29:23.040 every other day.

01:29:24.120 In reality, I

01:29:26.380 landed on some

01:29:27.400 cardboard boxes.

01:29:28.560 I first discovered

01:29:29.360 the film in the

01:29:30.120 1980s.

01:29:31.260 It taught that good

01:29:32.440 things happen to

01:29:33.160 good people, that

01:29:34.300 bad kids finish

01:29:35.340 last, and that

01:29:36.720 miracles do

01:29:37.760 happen.

01:29:39.640 And when I lost

01:29:40.720 my dad as a

01:29:41.540 teenager, it was a

01:29:42.900 movie that let me

01:29:43.840 escape.

01:29:44.600 People have told

01:29:45.560 me stories of this

01:29:47.040 movie got me

01:29:47.740 through some dark

01:29:48.760 times.

01:29:49.260 So it's sort

01:29:50.460 of the chicken

01:29:51.800 soup of movies.

01:29:53.540 There's countless

01:29:54.420 stories like that.

01:29:56.300 A year and a half

01:29:57.000 ago, two years

01:29:57.860 ago, I was at the

01:29:59.300 Syracuse airport,

01:30:00.720 and this guy, he

01:30:02.360 just came over to

01:30:03.820 me, and he goes,

01:30:05.400 I just want to

01:30:06.240 thank you.

01:30:07.040 And I just smiled,

01:30:08.900 and he smiled.

01:30:09.720 Yeah, you did

01:30:10.600 something that

01:30:11.360 mattered.

01:30:12.160 Charlie.

01:30:14.680 My boy.

01:30:17.100 You won!

01:30:18.260 You did it!

01:30:19.920 You did it!

01:30:20.920 I knew you would!

01:30:22.120 I just knew you

01:30:23.060 would!

01:30:23.540 We watch it on my

01:30:24.460 birthday every year,

01:30:25.600 and my sweet

01:30:26.540 daughter, she's nine, 0.76

01:30:28.740 she just said to me,

01:30:29.920 because I just had my

01:30:30.640 birthday in November,

01:30:31.380 she just said to me,

01:30:32.140 Mama, she was like,

01:30:33.360 when I'm a grown-up,

01:30:34.700 I'm going to watch

01:30:35.320 this every year on

01:30:36.160 your birthday and

01:30:36.940 think of you.

01:30:37.600 Invite us next week.

01:30:39.060 Wait, did she just

01:30:40.300 say, invite us?

01:30:42.260 Fast forward to a

01:30:43.380 few weeks ago, I

01:30:44.780 hopped on a plane to

01:30:45.760 London with my

01:30:46.580 family.

01:30:46.980 We stopped by

01:30:48.320 Buckingham Palace,

01:30:49.480 I hadn't said

01:30:50.080 hello to the

01:30:50.780 Queen since the

01:30:51.480 Royal Wedding in

01:30:52.140 2018, and then we

01:30:54.120 entered a world of,

01:30:55.700 you guessed it,

01:30:57.000 pure imagination.

01:30:58.520 Oh my, oh my gosh!

01:31:02.320 OMG! 0.99

01:31:03.520 I met up with Julie, and

01:31:12.740 with Wonka bars galore,

01:31:14.860 flowing chocolate

01:31:15.760 fountains, and a

01:31:17.040 little champagne toast,

01:31:18.520 we sat back and

01:31:20.080 watched the movie

01:31:21.460 together.

01:31:22.620 Julie shared more

01:31:47.860 memories of her time on

01:31:49.020 set.

01:31:49.320 her infamous, I want 1.00

01:31:51.040 it now, routine took

01:31:52.580 33 takes.

01:31:57.660 I have a question.

01:32:03.540 What was your favorite

01:32:04.620 line in the entire movie?

01:32:05.920 My favorite line?

01:32:10.520 Snozzberry.

01:32:11.360 Whoever heard of a

01:32:12.240 Snozzberry?

01:32:13.680 I know!

01:32:14.520 At one point, we even

01:32:15.800 called an Oompa Loompa,

01:32:17.360 chatting with Rusty Goff,

01:32:19.440 OMG, and then there was

01:32:21.420 Julie sharing memories of

01:32:23.200 Mr. Wonka himself,

01:32:25.040 Jean Wilder.

01:32:25.920 This is my original copy of

01:32:28.220 the book, which I read from

01:32:30.100 for my audition, and I had

01:32:31.400 everybody sign it.

01:32:32.560 Jean is somewhere.

01:32:33.320 To my dearest, beloved

01:32:35.080 Julie, whom I shall love

01:32:37.140 forever.

01:32:38.240 Julie says when it came to

01:32:39.320 Wilder, the camera never

01:32:40.500 lied.

01:32:41.220 The warmth he showed that I

01:32:42.580 always felt, and still feel

01:32:44.220 to this day, was real.

01:32:46.280 He didn't really want to

01:32:47.580 over-discuss Willy Wonka

01:32:49.280 because he didn't want to

01:32:50.200 break the magic.

01:32:51.120 The magic that Julie helped

01:32:52.980 me relive in a night I will

01:32:55.000 never forget.

01:32:56.060 But Charlie, don't forget

01:33:01.260 what happened to the man who

01:33:02.380 suddenly got everything he

01:33:03.540 always wanted.

01:33:04.400 What happened?

01:33:05.700 He lived happily ever after.

01:33:22.220 It got me again!

01:33:23.820 I can't.

01:33:26.420 Do you have one of those

01:33:27.420 films in your life that just

01:33:28.680 makes you feel totally

01:33:30.120 emotional?

01:33:31.080 To have watched that with

01:33:32.240 Julie Don Cole, I cannot

01:33:33.440 tell you how much that meant

01:33:34.500 to me, to my family.

01:33:36.420 I'm so grateful to her for

01:33:37.920 saying yes.

01:33:39.280 She's such a doll.

01:33:40.400 She's in no way disappointed.

01:33:41.720 To the contrary, I think

01:33:42.620 we're going to be lifelong

01:33:43.360 friends.

01:33:44.580 I should thank the Browns

01:33:47.100 Hotel.

01:33:47.820 Unbelievable job on the

01:33:49.180 Wonka Room.

01:33:49.800 So grateful to them.

01:33:51.520 And by the way, I want to

01:33:52.420 give a shout out to the

01:33:53.240 little Mini Cooper company

01:33:54.380 too.

01:33:54.680 If you ever go through

01:33:55.280 London, check out

01:33:56.120 Small Car Big City because

01:33:57.940 it's a super way to see the

01:33:59.460 town with your friends.

01:34:01.480 And if you want to hear my

01:34:02.340 full interview with Peter and

01:34:03.200 Julie from last year, it's

01:34:04.120 episode 41 in our archives.

01:34:06.100 More crying there and more

01:34:07.360 goodness.

01:34:08.120 Thanks for joining us today.

01:34:09.100 I want to tell you next week

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The Megyn Kelly Show - December 17, 2021

Bombshell Report on Masking Kids and Little House on the Prairie Tell-All, with David Zweig and Karen Grassle ｜ Ep. 224

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