Bonus： Bret Weinstein on The Tucker Carlson Podcast
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 14 minutes
Words per Minute
147.12726
Summary
The Darien Gap is a gap in the Pan-American highway between Panama and Colombia that separates North and South America. Last year, at least 520,000 migrants crossed it to come to the United States. How did they get there? And why?
Transcript
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Hey, Megyn Kelly listeners, it's Tucker Carlson. I'm actually a friend of Megyn's, not to brag.
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We've had similar career paths. We're both now in independent media, thank heaven,
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and more now that we're both in independent media. And in fact, there's really no media
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in America apart from independent media. The other guys are just political operatives.
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The Praetorian Guard of the ruling class. They're not only lying to you, they hate you.
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If you want to know what's actually happening, if you want to know what's true,
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if you're going to have any hope of being informed, you have to get out of NBC, CNN,
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New York Times, Washington Post world, and get into independent media. And that's where we are now.
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We've been doing a show on X for the past few months, and a bunch of people have asked if
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they could listen to the show as a podcast. Well, you can. Check out this sample episode.
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If you've been following any of the stories over the past several years about the movement of
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hundreds of thousands, millions of people illegally into the United States, you may have come across
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the phrase Darien Gap. It's never really explained what it is. It's a physical place. It's between
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Panama and Colombia. And it is a gap in the Pan-American highway. In other words, if you want to get from
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South America to North America, overland, you have to go through the Darien Gap. But it's very difficult.
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And yet, last year, at least 520,000 migrants crossed it to come here. How did that happen?
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What is it? What is going on in the Darien Gap? It's the key, in some ways, to this story,
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this immigration story. Well, almost no one has taken the time to go to the Darien Gap and find out
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what's happening there. Leave it to a world-round biologist to do that. Not a journalist, a
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biologist. That would be Dr. Brett Weinstein, who is the host, along with his wife, Heather,
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of the Dark Horse podcast. And he was just there last week because he wanted to see it for himself.
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We're honored to have him join us now to tell us what he found. Dr. Weinstein, thank you so much.
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So can you, that was my feeble attempt to ad-lib an explanation of the Darien Gap, but can you
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a little more precisely tell us what it is? Sure. You did a pretty good job. The Pan-American
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Highway is a road that literally goes from Prudhoe Bay, Alaska, to the southern tip of South America.
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It is unbroken, but for a 60-mile stretch between Panama and Colombia. It is not a canyon, as many
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people imagine the gap must be. It's an impenetrable piece of jungle, and the road has never been completed
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there, not because it's technically impossible to do, but because the combination of the difficulty
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of putting a road through that jungle and the danger of doing so has meant that North and South
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America have been separated in this way for the entire history of that road.
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So you often hear people say it's a perilous journey to get across that 60 miles of the Darien Gap.
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It's beyond fair. Let's just say I did my graduate work not far from Darien. I did it in
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central Panama, and the jungle in the Darien Gap is some place that one does not go without careful
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preparation. It is quite dangerous. It involves a number of conditions that make it perilous. For one
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thing, the Cordillera, which is the mountain range that is effectively the continental divide, the same
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continental divide that we see in Colorado, for example, continues down through Central America, and it passes
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through Darien. So imagine a very difficult jungle without proper trails through it in which migrants have to
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come up that mountain range, and they're almost all unprepared. They don't have the kinds of materials you would want
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with you. So they're soaking wet from rain. They're sleeping on the ground, and so they get hypothermia.
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It's extremely slippery, so people are constantly sliding down hills, breaking limbs. They sleep in
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their shoes and get trench foot. It's a very treacherous journey, and the difficulty of it should not be
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You wonder why there's not a permanent team of New York Times reporters there trying to tell the rest of us what
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exactly is happening. Half a million people move through there in one year. How did you wind up there?
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Well, I wound up there because Michael Yan had been sending me materials thinking that I would be interested in
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what was taking place in Panama, and of course, I was utterly fascinated by what I was seeing. Now, some of
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your viewers may not know Michael. Michael is a former Green Beret who has refashioned himself.
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Well, the last time I was on your program, I talked about Goliath.
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And if there's a Goliath, there's a David, and I would argue that Michael Yan is like David's eyes. He's been
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traversing the world trying to understand a story that as yet has no name, and that story is partially in the
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Darien of Panama, and it's all sorts of other places, including in various UN installations. There's some story that is
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difficult to piece together, and he's been physically traveling to all of its various epicenters and
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showing people. And that is the story of mass migration. Mass migration, I now think, is a piece
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of it. Now, when I went to Panama, I had a hard time explaining to myself why I was going because...
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The serendipity of it is important. But it was hard for me to justify in my head
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going to such a place when it wasn't going to change. You know, the videos he had sent me
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were quite clear. So what was it I was going to learn by standing there that I couldn't also learn
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by looking at these things? Well, I'm very glad I went because it did actually radically change my
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understanding of what I was looking at for reasons I better understand now. One needs to see the
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physical relationship between the various sites that he showed us in order to really piece together
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So you went, if I can summarize what I think you're saying, because you're a researcher and you wanted
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to know what's actually happening. The thing that gets de-emphasized when we talk about
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high-quality science is the degree to which it is informed by well-tutored intuition. So I had a
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sense that I needed to see it for reasons that my conscious mind wasn't certain of at the time.
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Follow your instincts. Boy, that is the lesson of so many moments in life. So what did you find,
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Well, I concluded a number of things, and the whole thing was so mentally disruptive that I'm still in
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the process of unpacking what it was and debating with myself about what it means. But I'll give you
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some basics. But I do have to ask something of your audience. There's part of this that is just me
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reporting what I saw and what I learned from Michael and others on our trip. And there's part
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of it that's me speculating. And I'm trying to do it as responsibly as possible, because a great deal
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hinges on what the actual explanation for what we looked at is. So when I'm speculating, I'm going to
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be careful to tell you that that's what I'm doing, and people should treat hypotheses as hypotheses
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and nothing more. But the first place that this trip really changed my understanding was I went down
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thinking that I was going to see a migration. And other people have called it an invasion.
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And there is something troubling to me about the tension between these two things. I mean,
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which is it? And I came away with the sense that it's probably literally both. And the way that
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manifests is you have a massive movement of people through the Darien from Colombia. Now, I did not
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know when I went down, I now know that most of those people actually start in Ecuador. And the reason they
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start in Ecuador is that Ecuador has a policy where they don't require a visa. So people coming from all
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over the world can land in Quito, Ecuador, find their way through Colombia, move through the Darien.
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And if they survive it, which not all of them do, they can then get relatively directly all the way
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through Central America into the US. But that's not all that's going on. So we went to several of the,
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I guess you would call them transit camps. These are places where people who have come by whatever
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route to Darien, where they recover if they're injured, and they have to accumulate money, because
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even if they settle out on their journey with enough money to buy a bus ticket to get them through
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Central America, by the time they've come through Darien, almost all of them have been robbed,
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and much worse, actually. People are being robbed, women are being raped, and lots of people are dying.
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The migrants talk about stepping over bodies in Darien. And for somebody with experience in these kinds
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of jungles, it's not hard to see how without a support network, the kinds of stuff that can happen
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in the jungle can become deadly very quickly. Things can spiral out of control.
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So you have all of these migrants from all over the world, many of them are South American, but that is
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by no means the whole story. People are coming from the Middle East, we met Afghans, we met people
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from the Caribbean, Haitians, there are people from Yemen, Iran. It's shocking, really. This looks
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superficially like the migration of Central Americans that you and I remember from when we were kids.
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Yes. And there is some of that. But that's not the whole story. Now, there's a camp we went to called
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Canaan Membrio. It's on the Canaan River at the town of Membrio. And Canaan Membrio, we were allowed to
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walk around at will, and we could interact with the migrants at will. We were allowed to take pictures.
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There was no concern about this. We just had to check in with the Senna Front. The Senna Front is the
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Panamanian Border Authority. But once we had checked in, we were on our own. And people were
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interested in talking, including migrants. So we had many conversations with migrants. And
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these migrants, I have to tell you, when they come to the southern border of the US,
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they get through on the basis that they are political refugees. They aren't. When we talk to
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them in the transit camp, everybody tells the same story. They are fleeing economic collapse. And they
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are fleeing in the direction of what they perceive to be economic opportunity. And of course, in American
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law, these two things are very different. We protect people who are seeking political asylum, but we do
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not offer automatic economic asylum. And the reason for that is fairly clear, which is that in order to
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protect people economically, we end up robbing Americans of their economic well-being. And
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that's just not something that people are entitled to, no matter how much compassion you may have
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for people fleeing Venezuela. It is not our responsibility, especially not without some
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sort of a plan and agreement about how many people are going to come through and in what way we're going
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to take care of them and how that's going to get paid for. We don't do that. But in any case, you get the
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same story from everybody. They're fleeing an economic crisis. And they're moving north. And many of them
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have terrible stories about what happened to them in the Darien Gap. So that's one thing. And you see,
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when you go into this camp, Canaman Brio, you see the hallmark of the international community. You see
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NGO emblems all over the place, proudly American flags. They've paid for the water system, the toilets
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that are there. The United States government is facilitating this economic migration, and it's
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unmistakable, as is an organization called the IOM, which is the International Organization for Migration.
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It's a branch of the UN. And if you read their charter, you will discover that this organization
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believes that migration is an inherently good thing, that it's always good. And so they see it as their
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job to bring it about, to facilitate it. And in this case, that's particularly tragic because their
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desire to induce people to migrate is causing people who are woefully unprepared for the Darien Gap
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to try to make that journey. And the humanitarian tragedy is immense.
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So the UN, which the United States is, I think, the largest donor by far,
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Yep. Apparently they are. Now, Panamanians are largely unaware. Some are aware that there's a
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migration. But in large measure, this migration, once it gets through the Darien Gap, boards, buses,
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and effectively what I now understand is that all of the countries in Central America are effectively
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waving the migrants through because those migrants are not going to stop in these countries. As long as
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they keep going to the US, these countries are willing to remain silent about it. Now, in 1991,
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Heather and I actually traveled the other direction through Central America, through all of the countries
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south to Costa Rica. And all of those borders are tightly controlled.
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And so it is very surprising to find those controls are effectively lifted here. That's clearly the result
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of a massive coordination. And of course, it's resulting in a large migration. But what I was
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going to tell you about the fact that this migration doesn't appear to me to be just one thing is that we
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went to another camp called San Vicente. And everything in San Vicente is different than it was at Canaan
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Mambria. San Vicente, first of all, it's not a town. This is a camp that is built as a transit camp. It's built
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of containers and various objects to house people. And it is almost entirely Chinese. Now, there were
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Chinese folks. Chinese? Chinese. That's a long way from China. It sure is. And what's more, in this camp, the rule
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that you're able to go in and walk around and talk to people is not in evidence. The center front, the
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Panamanian border control, actually forbid us to go into the camp. So we had to stay on the outside of it. We were
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also forbidden to photograph it. So what photographs we have were taken covertly. But the most striking
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thing... Wait, may I ask? So is it the government of China, do you believe, that's funding this?
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I... Well, let me tell you the other thing I found, and then I think the answer to that will become
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clearer. Outside of the San Vicente camp, the Chinese migrants are... You can interact with them. There are a
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couple of shops where they go to buy water or snacks or whatever. And so you can interact with them at
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those places. They are the opposite of forthcoming. They have no interest in talking to outsiders.
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And I've been to dangerous places before. I've been to places where people fear their government and
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can't talk to you because they feel it's not safe. This didn't feel like that at all. This felt like
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people who did not want to share information because it would be a mistake to do so. And what's more,
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there was an incident where Michael, who has lived in China, he's been all over the world,
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and he started up or tried to start up a conversation with a guy who claimed to be from Korea. And Michael
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tripped him up and got him to speak Chinese. And then there was uproarious laughter at the fact that he had tried
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to pull this caper on Michael. So it is not a friendly migration. These Chinese folks who are
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overwhelmingly male, military age, there are women present. I realized only this morning that in
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thinking back, I saw few if any children in the Chinese migration. They were everywhere in the other
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places we visited. But they were not present, as far as I remember, in the San Vicente camp.
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So what I have pieced together, and this is a place where I'm going to speculate, this is a hypothesis,
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this is not a conclusion. But what I began to suspect was that the Chinese migration is actually being
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cloaked by the economic migration coming from South America. And that that is consistent with the
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observation that it has some different motivation. I learned from Michael that the Chinese migrants in
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the San Vicente camp largely bypassed the Darien. Because they have money, they can go by boat and
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they can skip most of the peril of the Darien Gap. And in any case, it's a very different phenomenon.
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And to see it housed so separately is quite conspicuous. I do not know what the rationale
00:19:06.180
Can you estimate, do you have any sense of how many Chinese, these are Chinese nationals?
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How many did you see-ish? Talking 60 or 600 or?
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It's very hard to say because we were held at one edge of the camp. So I probably saw
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150 faces, but the camp is deeper. Now, Michael does some drone reconnaissance, and he's also been
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to this camp many times. He would definitely be the person to ask in terms of a good estimate for
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how many of these folks there are. But the degree to which this is not consistent with a...
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Well, let me back up a second. I regard the Chinese people as victims of an oppressive
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So there's nothing about the fact that these folks are Chinese that throws me. And if they
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were fleeing that government, I'm not sure what we should do about it, but I'm certainly supportive
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of their desire, I would feel a great deal of sympathy. And in fact, I felt a great deal of
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sympathy for all of the other migrants that I met. But the sense of, it's really hard not to use the
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term hostility that I felt from the Chinese was particularly unsettling given that I know where
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they're headed, right? They're headed to the US.
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And just to be totally clear on that point, this was not a work camp for a, you know,
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Chinese infrastructure project. No, it was not. And what I know is taking place at the southern
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border of the US makes this even more disturbing because although the controls at the southern
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border are still there for those of us who are crossing legally, the lack of any control for those
00:21:04.480
who are crossing illegally is stunning. So if I may just compare, when I came back from Panama, I
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approached a kiosk with my passport ready to scan it. I didn't have to. A camera took my picture. And
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although I didn't know that my picture was about to be taken, I hadn't taken my hat off, I was wearing
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my glasses. The kiosk told me I didn't need to put my passport there. And then a customs officer behind me
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called my name, Brett. He said, do you have anything to declare? I said, no. He said, you're good to go.
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So we have technology that is capable of identifying a person with that level of ease to the point that
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they knew exactly who was coming through the border. But we are not apparently taking that information
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when people cross our southern border. What we're doing at most is asking them their name and their
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birth date and taking them at their word. But no biometric collection?
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Apparently not. Which means that, you know, even if this were simply a matter of our system being
00:22:10.540
overwhelmed by migrants, you would at least want to collect that information so that if a troublemaker
00:22:15.660
did come through, which is inevitable that they will, you could begin to figure out who it might be,
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right? So that, you know, they had an identity. Even if it was just connected to biometric data,
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that would be useful. But we're not doing it. So what I think I saw, my hypothesis for what I think
00:22:34.380
I saw is that there is an invasion taking place. You know, it's not a sleeper cell because it's on
00:22:43.040
the move. But I started to think of them as sleepwalkers. And there's also a massive migration.
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And the migration is causing it, is causing us to have difficulty discussing the invasion,
00:22:59.540
And different simply from desperate peasants from poor countries coming here for work.
00:23:04.480
There was no desperation in evidence. And Michael also gave us a video, which I can't establish the
00:23:11.100
origin of. But it is a Chinese cartoon set to happy music of a migrant moving through Central America,
00:23:23.720
changing modes of transportation. And it basically indicates here's the route you will travel.
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Now, was it produced by the CCP? I can't be certain of that. But that certainly
00:23:32.880
is suggested that this is a message about how to make this journey for what purpose, I don't know. But
00:23:41.400
I do not believe that the people I encountered had left China without the knowledge of their
00:23:46.940
government. I believe their government has some reason to have facilitated.
00:23:57.800
It is. But here's the problem I've been wrestling with.
00:24:05.140
It used to be that it was hard to convince people that our system was deeply corrupt. Back in
00:24:11.620
the days when those of us who were focused on this issue used to talk about campaign finance reform.
00:24:16.260
It was a problem that you could grapple with. It was of that scale. Now we have a whole different
00:24:25.100
level of corruption. And here's the question that I've never heard a good answer to. What stops our
00:24:33.940
enemies internationally from buying influence over our system in the same way that corporations
00:24:42.280
I can't think of anything and I've never heard it.
00:24:49.620
I don't think there is any such safeguard. And if there is such a safeguard, I would like to know
00:24:56.240
how often it has been triggered. Certainly our enemies will have noticed that we have a system
00:25:00.420
that's pay for play. And it's certainly, I mean, it's perfectly in keeping with Sun Tzu at the very
00:25:06.620
least. It would be far cheaper, easier, safer from their perspective to persuade us to harm ourselves
00:25:17.140
than to go to war with us. So again, I don't know. I'm a biologist. I'm, you know, this is not my...
00:25:26.780
Well, you're an observer of things. That's what the study of biology is, right?
00:25:30.180
It is. And unfortunately, this is the most parsimonious explanation for what I've seen
00:25:34.580
now is that somebody has persuaded us to endorse a policy that is decidedly not in our interest.
00:25:46.200
And I will also say that I've become aware in the process of doing this, that the Chinese have a
00:25:54.160
rather famous plan for the world called the Belt and Road Initiative.
00:26:00.180
In which they have scoped out where the resources are and how they're to get from one place to
00:26:06.780
another. What many people who know about the Belt and Road Initiative don't know is that they have
00:26:12.540
also, you know, the Belt and Road Initiative is largely about Africa and Asia. But apparently,
00:26:19.680
there's been a considerable amount of thinking in China about how Belt and Road would work in the
00:26:24.680
new world as well. And it's in full operation. I mean, St. Croix, which is an American protectorate,
00:26:30.180
St. Croix, next to, you know, it's American Virgin Islands. Its road system is built by China.
00:26:37.920
There you go. And there's an awful lot of investment in Panama. And there is certainly
00:26:54.120
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00:27:25.580
Another thing that Michael showed us, which I, I, it's maybe the most surprising thing I saw,
00:27:37.040
is a bridge building project at Javitsa, which is the town at the very end of the Pan American
00:27:45.060
Highway in Darien. So there is a massive bridge being built.
00:27:51.200
Not a bamboo and vine bridge. Oh, no. This is a massive concrete and steel highway bridge
00:27:58.360
being built over the Chukunake River into the Darien. What's on the other side is impenetrable
00:28:06.980
jungle and a few villages. This bridge does not make any sense.
00:28:15.920
That is much less clear. There are no signs. Most people in Panama are completely unaware that
00:28:21.160
any such project exists. There are no proud signs as there are in the transit camps.
00:28:28.120
I will say we spoke to the foreman of the project. I mean, the project is actually pretty impressive.
00:28:34.400
You know, it's a construction site. Nobody's standing around. They are building a bridge and
00:28:44.800
They do. The foreman was Panamanian and we asked him what the purpose of the bridge was
00:28:51.300
and he didn't know, but he speculated that it was to bring yucca from Darien, from the villages on the
00:29:02.580
That's a low margin agricultural product for those who are watching. It doesn't justify a steel
00:29:09.120
There's nothing about this that makes any sense. I mean, yucca, it's like potato. It grows all over
00:29:16.640
Panama and all over the world's tropics. There would be no reason to grow it in Darien. In fact,
00:29:22.500
there are very good reasons not to encourage more of it to be grown in Darien given the
00:29:26.260
priceless habitat that will be cleared to grow yucca there for no good reason. There's lots of
00:29:31.600
better places to do it. So what I was left with is the sense that there is a bridge going in
00:29:39.500
and it has a purpose that has not been shared with the Panamanians. That purpose really has to be,
00:29:48.560
as far as I can tell, it's got to be one of two things. Either this is about bringing lumber
00:29:56.440
out of Darien National Park, which would be obscene.
00:30:01.660
Cutting hardwood. This is priceless hardwood that is in part still standing because it is such a
00:30:08.280
difficult jungle to access. So it's possible that somebody has targeted that wood and not told the
00:30:14.820
Panamanians and they're building this bridge for that purpose. But the other potential purpose is that
00:30:21.700
they're intending to finish the Pan American Highway through Darien, which is something that would
00:30:27.840
certainly need to be discussed to be reasonable. Now, in the aftermath of our trip, Anne Vanderstiel
00:30:37.360
put up a video sharing just a view of this construction site and her perspective on it. And this caused a
00:30:46.220
small scandal in Panama because the Panamanians weren't aware. And suddenly this was on the
00:30:51.460
internet and they were talking about what is this bridge at the southern end of the Panamerican
00:30:58.000
highway in Panama. And the Panamanians claimed that it was just to reach the villages on the other side.
00:31:08.300
So I'm left with the very odd sense that their cover story is that this is a boondoggle, right?
00:31:16.540
If this was a boondoggle and they were just putting money into a project that meant nothing,
00:31:20.640
then that would explain the bridge to nowhere. But this didn't look like a boondoggle. This looked
00:31:27.360
like somebody wanted the bridge. And given the Belt and Road Initiative and the sense that the Chinese
00:31:34.300
have about what the future should look like and in which direction resources should move and for what
00:31:39.980
purpose, it's hard for me not to connect the dots between these things, right? You have a massive
00:31:46.040
migration of people, labor. You have a likely invasion of military age, largely Chinese males who are not
00:32:00.120
forthcoming about why they have embarked on their journey and appear to be encouraged by something in
00:32:04.900
China to do this. So, you know, I don't know. Is there...
00:32:10.440
Given what you're describing and what you saw with your own eyes,
00:32:13.840
doubtless you have seen Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois' comments in the Senate where you said,
00:32:18.840
hey, we should let people who came here illegally join the U.S. military.
00:32:23.860
What does that make you think? Well, this makes me think back to the COVID crisis and some thoughts
00:32:35.620
that I was developing then about the insanity of throwing highly trained people in many cases out
00:32:44.840
of the U.S. military for refusing to take the so-called vaccines. Now, my sense at the time was
00:32:53.400
that that likely had the purpose of getting rid of the kinds of people who refuse moral orders.
00:33:02.680
And that it created a much more compliant force. Now, what happens if migrants are given
00:33:10.100
citizenship in exchange for military service in the U.S. military? That seems to create a major
00:33:19.080
hazard because the perverse incentives for a migrant and the lack of allegiance to fundamental American
00:33:27.440
values means that that would be just the kind of force that could be used to impose tyranny on
00:33:34.440
other Americans because they would have, you know, no history with us that would cause them to think twice.
00:33:43.040
We've seen this before with the Roman legions. That's exactly my conclusion. Does that sound
00:33:53.820
I think we have to stop punishing ourselves for considering things that once seemed crazy.
00:34:00.860
The pattern of recent history. I'm sorry, I want to repeat that. I think we have to stop punishing
00:34:05.860
ourselves for considering things that once seems crazy. Yep. Getting that tattoo. Yeah. Well, I mean,
00:34:13.000
this is where we are. And it is, it's causing me to do something that I'm reluctant to do. My training
00:34:21.200
is as a scientist. And scientists have to have a substantial degree of caution and skepticism to do
00:34:32.840
the work. But in order even to reach the possibilities that do fully explain what we're seeing, we have to
00:34:39.740
be ready to consider the larger picture. Now, I was talking to Chris Martinson while we were in Panama.
00:34:49.660
We were on our last day trying to just unpack what we had seen and what it meant to us. Chris is also a
00:34:56.840
scientist. And people can check this out on the Dark Horse Locals community. We've posted the entire
00:35:05.880
conversation in which he and I reached some, I think we spooked ourselves trying to reason through
00:35:11.580
what this might be. And he reminded me of the massive number of surplus males that China now has as a
00:35:25.320
result. I was thinking the exact same thing as a result of the one child policy. The one child
00:35:29.420
policy. Now, here's the part that I suddenly realized as soon as he reminded me of that.
00:35:36.060
I wrote an essay years ago about the one child policy and the paradox of a heavy bias in favor of
00:35:45.660
males. And the reason that this is a paradox is that there's a principle in evolution well understood.
00:35:51.780
It's the result of the work of a guy named Ronald Fisher. And what Fisher realized was that although
00:35:57.820
males and females can be very different in how many offspring they produce, and because a male could
00:36:02.540
produce thousands of offspring in a lifetime, and a female, if we're talking about humans, could,
00:36:07.360
I think the maximum is something impressive like 60. But nonetheless, because males can produce a lot
00:36:14.060
more, it seems that it might be evolutionarily advantageous to be one. But it's not because for every
00:36:19.940
overperforming male, there's an underperforming male, or at least one. And the result is that sex
00:36:26.700
ratios, no matter how different males and females are in their maximum reproductive capacity, they tend
00:36:32.340
to default to one to one. If you have a society that has too many females, you should produce a male. And
00:36:37.960
if you have a society with too many males, you should produce a female, which tends to balance these
00:36:42.060
things out. That logic should have applied to China. The fact is there were lots of excess males. And if
00:36:51.120
you put yourself in the mindset of a Chinese person having a child, if there are too many males, you
00:36:57.420
should want to produce a female. A male is very unlikely to find a mate. A female is certain to find
00:37:02.500
one. And what's more, she has her pick of the litter. Yes. So that logic should have caused the sex
00:37:08.880
ratio to return to 50-50, and yet it did not. Which caused me, all those years ago when I wrote this
00:37:14.580
piece, to wonder if there wasn't another evolutionary force in play. If evolution did not have a mechanism
00:37:22.860
for producing armies. That when a country was in a position to expand, that producing excess males does pay off
00:37:32.060
at a lineage level. That excess males who have no reproductive prospects at home become an effective
00:37:39.180
weapon against neighboring populations. So I can't believe that that did not occur to me as I was
00:37:46.760
preparing for this trip, but it has occurred to me now. I guess it didn't occur to me because
00:37:53.700
when I wrote that all those years ago, I was expecting to see evidence that this was turning into a military
00:37:59.320
force and I didn't see it. So I stopped thinking about it. But now I wonder if that isn't exactly
00:38:05.320
right. And if what happened is that a male biased population in China was produced as a weapon,
00:38:15.220
and if that weapon is now being deployed. That's remarkable. So that would, so, so far we have the U.S.
00:38:25.460
government abetting this, the branch of the U.N., Chinese government. Did you see any other funders or
00:38:35.280
apparent funders of this? Well, I'm not expert in this area at all. We did go to a place, so I guess
00:38:44.840
I didn't say this, 25 years ago I worked in Panama. I lived on Barrow, Colorado Island, which is an island
00:38:51.260
administered by the Smithsonian Institution in the Panama Canal. It was a hilltop that got isolated
00:38:56.400
when the canal filled, and the Smithsonian took it over because it was a marvelous opportunity to
00:39:02.600
have an isolated piece of forest that they could watch over time and learn how tropical biology works.
00:39:08.300
So I had the privilege of living in the canal for 18 months, and I got very familiar with the canal.
00:39:14.700
Absolutely did. We used to swim in the waters. For whatever reason, the crocodiles that inhabit
00:39:19.980
those waters, if we would encounter them while swimming, they would turn and go the other way,
00:39:24.300
which was lovely. Apparently that's no longer true, and you can't swim there. But yeah, I lived there.
00:39:35.840
I'm only asking, really for your benefit, because I want you to remember just how dramatically your life
00:39:40.060
has changed. Yeah. Well, I still love tent-making bats. It's a little miracle that exists in these
00:39:47.340
forests. But anyway, maybe we'll talk about that another time. But I was well familiar with the
00:39:52.780
Canal Zone because we used to, the Canal Zone, in fact, the military, this was before the handover to
00:39:58.060
the Panamanians. So the military made it possible for the Smithsonian to work there, and we were
00:40:05.100
constantly interacting. We were going on their bases. We'd go on their bases to watch a movie.
00:40:10.380
So we were using this military infrastructure, which has now all been handed over to Panama.
00:40:15.260
And what impressed me was when we went back specifically to Fort Clayton, something that
00:40:22.780
is now called the City of Knowledge. The City of Knowledge is housed in, or its central building
00:40:33.020
is the former Army South Building from the U.S. Southern Command. So this is both an important
00:40:42.300
fact for the military, that U.S. Southern Command is a segment of the military dedicated to protecting
00:40:51.740
American interests in the Caribbean and all of Latin America, south of Mexico. And it has this
00:40:59.260
impressive structure in Fort Clayton, immediately above the Las Flores locks.
00:41:08.300
So it was both physically there to protect the canal, and it was metaphorically this imposing
00:41:19.980
Absolutely. And after the handover, all of the military bases that were in the canal zone were
00:41:25.580
handed over. And this one has been taken over by the UN and the international community and all the
00:41:30.220
NGOs have offices there. And it reminded me of how many things in our society had their purpose
00:41:39.740
inverted. Universities used to exist to make young people smarter and more analytically capable.
00:41:48.780
Universities now make people stupider and convince them of things that just simply aren't true.
00:41:53.580
Yes. Newspapers used to help us understand what the facts were about events that were taking place
00:42:01.740
that involve us. Now newspapers obscure the facts from us. They're the last to report the news after
00:42:07.180
we embarrass them into doing it. So this structure that once was a testament to the achievement of the
00:42:15.900
Panama Canal and the importance of protecting the Panama Canal is now involved
00:42:23.740
in what looks like obvious subterfuge against American interests, right? An organization that
00:42:31.980
is dedicated to facilitating migration without asking Americans, without there being any plan at all
00:42:37.900
for how the well-being of these people is going to be financed. Their office, IOM, is sitting, if this
00:42:47.340
building, U.S. Army south at the Las Flores locks, it's like a person. And at that person's left knee
00:43:00.140
is the IOM looking out at the Bridge of the Americas, which when I was there was the only way to cross the
00:43:05.820
Panama Canal, right? It's almost the exact inversion of what these structures were built for. And how many
00:43:13.260
times do you have to see the inversion of something to begin to get the sense that that's something has
00:43:18.700
taken over our system and it's become sick? Well, it's all, and I'm sure there's a biological
00:43:27.500
term to describe the process of maybe cancer, the body eating itself. I mean, it seems like the
00:43:33.820
structures set in place to protect the country are now at war with the country.
00:43:39.980
I do have the sense that the country, the structures, and it's not even just the country,
00:43:46.940
it's the West. And, you know, I view myself as very much a patriot of the country, but I'm also a
00:43:52.700
patriot of the West, which I see the country as having, maybe it's slightly overstated to say
00:44:00.140
invented the concept. But in any case, yes, the West appears to be
00:44:09.900
sick with an infection. And again, I don't want to drag you into too much biology, but
00:44:18.460
everybody knows what a parasite is. There's also something called a parasitoid. And a parasitoid is
00:44:25.420
a parasite that kills its host in the process of doing its job. And I'm concerned that we may have
00:44:31.500
a parasitoid that is actually at least indifferent to the destruction of the United States and the West
00:44:41.180
and is acting accordingly. So I know it's become your life's work or part of your life's work to
00:44:46.460
figure out what exactly that entity is. Are you any closer?
00:44:54.300
I suppose I am. I mean, maybe I'm part way. And that part involves, I now look at a map with much
00:45:08.940
more skepticism that I understand what it means. That we have become so accustomed to looking at something
00:45:15.020
like a nation like China and thinking of it as an entity that behaves in some way. And
00:45:29.100
ease with which various power structures interact suggests that we...
00:45:36.300
I don't understand why my government is behaving in a way that seems to be
00:45:41.020
sabotaging the interests of average Americans, but it is, undeniably.
00:45:49.180
It seems to be acting on behalf of our enemies. I don't know whether that could conceivably be
00:45:58.300
because there's actually hostility. I doubt it. But my guess is what there is is just
00:46:04.780
a rampant outbreak of amorality where people are willing to do whatever is expedient. And that has
00:46:14.380
made the game rather easy for powers that be elsewhere. And I don't know where the analysis becomes absurd.
00:46:26.540
I have watched policy on the West Coast make the quality of life drop spectacularly so that
00:46:37.980
people are fleeing, including wealthy people. And I look at wealthy people fleeing California, for example,
00:46:45.260
them. And I think something about this story doesn't add up. It's rather a lot like building up a population
00:46:53.420
with too many males. There's something else that explains this because at the end of the day,
00:46:59.100
wealthy elites are going to end up with the best real estate. So the fact that they're fleeing either
00:47:04.940
means that which elites are going to end up with that real estate is about to switch. Maybe this was
00:47:09.180
a real estate scam. Malibu will always be occupied by rich people. It will. But which rich people? Yes.
00:47:17.340
And I wonder, having seen something that very much looks like an undeclared invasion moving through
00:47:28.700
Central America, knowing that the Chinese Communist Party thinks in terms of long-term planning over the
00:47:38.700
movement of the movement of the movement of people and resources, that our system, we've effectively
00:47:45.500
opened the gates of the city to anybody who's willing to pay to corrupt our political structures.
00:47:53.340
There is a story you could tell in which the CCP has a different understanding of what the future
00:48:00.380
of our country is than most Americans do. And well, let's just put it this way. Maybe I'm imagining what
00:48:09.420
I saw. But if I'm not, then all of those Chinese migrants who don't want to talk about what they're
00:48:15.500
doing moving into the US, they're going to do something. I don't know what it's going to be, but
00:48:23.660
I don't know when we became so naive about the fact that there are parties abroad who do not wish us
00:48:36.380
well and would not mind at all seeing us removed from our position of power. And who knows? Maybe
00:48:44.220
some of us displaced from the continent we live on? I can't say.
00:48:49.180
I mean, China is literally the other side of the world. It's also not Haiti. I mean,
00:48:56.060
there's economic opportunity in China, but there's also economic opportunity for unemployed Chinese
00:49:01.900
in the Philippines or Vietnam, Malaysia. It's not obvious that they would come to the Darien Gap to get
00:49:09.820
here. Well, the Darien Gap is a very strange place to have gone. For one thing, as Chris Martinson points
00:49:18.780
out, the absurdity, if we're going to invite people in, let's say we had decided that we didn't have
00:49:26.860
enough people to do labor and that it was actually good for the US to bring in large numbers of people
00:49:31.580
from elsewhere. Having people go through the theater of marching through Darien is absurd
00:49:42.060
and dangerous, and it is creating a humanitarian crisis. In addition to the environmental crisis,
00:49:48.700
which is in Darien, we're creating a humanitarian crisis that's absolutely needless. Either these
00:49:54.220
people should be welcomed because it's good for us to bring them in, or they shouldn't be there at all.
00:50:00.060
And the only purpose I can think, especially given that the Chinese, many of the Chinese,
00:50:05.020
I don't want to say all, there are Chinese people in the other camps. We saw that as well. Also not
00:50:10.540
forthcoming about anything. But the only purpose I can think of for coming to America via Panama
00:50:22.140
is that it allows them to blend with all of the people who are coming from South America. It makes
00:50:30.860
it hard to discuss, but I can't think of another reason to do it that way. It's, at the very least,
00:50:45.180
Did you run into any journalists from big newspapers or TV channels when you were down there?
00:50:51.020
Absolutely not, which is also shocking. I mean, this is emblematic of the era we are living in,
00:50:59.660
where the issues which obviously have our well-being tied up in them are hiding in plain sight.
00:51:09.900
It's not hard to see this story. All you need to know is where to go. You can go look at it. And the
00:51:17.660
fact that that's not happening, that our major news organizations are disinterested in this story,
00:51:25.740
again, suggests a system that has been corrupted across the board. You would imagine that even if
00:51:33.180
the New York Times didn't want to report this story, that some reporter with ambition would chase
00:51:39.260
it down anyway. But so universal is the complicity here that nobody reports it. And if they do report
00:51:46.940
it, they report it wrong. They report it so that it leads you to have a confused sense or a sense that
00:51:53.100
this is more minor than it is. But we're talking literally about millions of people. And millions of
00:51:59.020
people is not a minor issue in a country with 300 million. This is a major demographic shift,
00:52:06.300
one way or the other. Yeah, and a permanent one. What did you hear about the cartels when you were
00:52:13.580
down there? We hear a lot about them in this country, but in pretty nonspecific terms. We heard that they
00:52:20.860
were present. And I don't think that's a new phenomenon. We also heard... So there's a lot of
00:52:29.020
what we would call coyotes at our southern border are called snakeheads. There's a lot of this going
00:52:37.740
on in Darien. People are paying to have somebody shepherd them through, and that often does not go well.
00:52:47.500
So they're present. The cartels appear to be making a great deal of money from this. They're probably
00:52:56.220
not happy to have it discussed. I don't know what that implies. But also I would point out the farther
00:53:07.340
north, this migration obviously has a relationship with the cartels. The cartels are largely about American
00:53:15.500
demand for illicit substances. And a massive uncontrolled wave of migrants is an obvious
00:53:25.660
mechanism whereby fentanyl and other things are entering the U.S. in an unmonitored way. I mean,
00:53:32.780
in fact, to the extent that they come in with migrants, we are apparently facilitating their
00:53:39.580
transport into the interior. We're spreading them around. And so what I can say is the cartels are
00:53:48.060
not directly visible to a visitor, but their influence is felt and discussed.
00:53:57.420
You're describing a lot of different crimes happening simultaneously.
00:54:08.460
Well, I mean, and strangely it goes back to the idea of giving ourselves permission
00:54:13.820
to entertain all kinds of possibilities, even things that are crazy and we have to ultimately
00:54:18.540
reject. But we have to not talk ourselves out of noticing what is taking place.
00:54:28.300
Well, you know, it's funny. Scientists are losing their way as well. And I think
00:54:33.260
how science is actually done is being forgotten. And I think we are actually literally in a cryptic
00:54:42.220
dark age. Now, every dark age has a small number of people, I call them keepers of the flame, who do
00:54:49.900
remember how to do science and keep that knowledge alive in one way or another. But it's time
00:54:56.380
it's time to dust it off and bring it out into the mainstream. And, you know, the toolkit for
00:55:02.460
figuring out what a story like this means is not different from the toolkit you use to figure out
00:55:08.940
what's going on in a tropical forest. It's hypothesis testing. And what you don't want, you know,
00:55:15.100
people have heard from me now, they've heard some things they may be shocked by them.
00:55:19.580
You don't know. This is one person's view of what they saw. What you really want is many
00:55:24.380
people to have seen it. And then you want them to pool their understanding, to point out what doesn't
00:55:30.060
make sense about one story, one explanation or another. That's the process. And the fewer of us
00:55:37.020
who are on the case, the worse we're going to do. And that we should just expect that. So
00:55:44.460
the first answer is just wake up. Something is afoot that none of us have seen before.
00:55:50.140
Even to the extent that there are echoes of historical processes here, much of this is
00:55:58.060
is quite new. I mean, for one thing, a mass migration through a dense jungle where people
00:56:05.100
have been informed about how to transit it, you know, by cell phone, where money can be wired by
00:56:12.700
Western Union to buy yourself a bus ticket after you've been robbed by bandits and in the forest.
00:56:19.500
Right. This is this is this is some weird combination of very low tech and very high tech.
00:56:25.580
What percentage of the migrants have smartphones?
00:56:27.580
Well, I don't know. But I my guess is a lot much larger percentage have them at the beginning of their
00:56:34.060
trek than have them at the end. In part, that's because of rampant theft. Yeah, I talked to a
00:56:42.940
a woman. Her name was Jen. She's Venezuelan. She was a college student in Venezuela and is fleeing the
00:56:50.220
collapse of her society. She was robbed of everything she had in Darien. I'm almost certain
00:56:57.580
she was raped. I didn't ask her, but I told her that I thought her journey had been more perilous
00:57:06.140
than she shared. And she confirmed that. And I think we both knew what I was talking about.
00:57:12.300
But in any case, she lost her phone to bandits. But the other thing that happens is
00:57:18.940
the exhaustion that people who are unprepared for the Darien Gap experience in struggling up these just
00:57:30.300
mud doesn't even describe it. The clay in these soils is such that you just imagine incredibly slippery
00:57:37.020
faces, you know, that are being drenched in rain on a daily basis.
00:57:41.500
People are so exhausted that they rid themselves of the possessions that they thought they would somehow
00:57:52.140
bring through. You know, they they lose their shoes, they drop all of their possessions and they
00:57:59.820
walk out with nothing. So in any case, I would say
00:58:03.180
they probably most of them have phones when they when they embark. And I have no idea what the
00:58:09.740
percentage that actually what is it doing to the environment to the landscape?
00:58:13.900
It's a catastrophe. I mean, it's certainly going to be limited at this point to the I think there
00:58:19.660
are three major routes through the Darien Gap at the moment, they are absolutely littered with
00:58:26.220
trash and bodies. And it's apparently quite hellish. In fact, Jen told me that on her trek,
00:58:39.580
she spoke pretty good English, she said that she didn't see a single animal. I'm sure she meant
00:58:45.260
mammal. But the idea of walking across Darien and not seeing a single mammal suggests that this is just
00:58:55.740
absolutely devastating. Now, it's nothing compared to what will happen if a road gets put through.
00:59:02.620
Roads have a very well understood impact on a forest like this. Once you have roads, you're going
00:59:08.540
to have hunters and they're going to empty the forest. You're going to have empty forest syndrome.
00:59:12.620
After that, you're going to have loggers. They're going to be pulling out all of these priceless
00:59:16.780
tropical hardwoods. You're going to get miners who are going to illegally go in there and mine and
00:59:22.700
leave big tailing piles and toxins. It's a devastating impact. At the moment, my guess would be that
00:59:34.220
the forest is rescuable, but the process has to stop. If it continues to go
00:59:41.900
Has the government of Panama said anything about this? I mean, it's their territory.
00:59:48.220
Mostly they don't say anything. And what we were told was that this was
00:59:54.780
kind of the deal, that if they ushered people through, they facilitated their movement, then
01:00:01.420
those people would keep going. And this is a temporary cost for Panama.
01:00:05.580
I think if the people of Panama thought that the migration was going to stop and they were going
01:00:12.380
to have to absorb all of these migrants, there would be riots in the streets. That's my guess.
01:00:20.700
Panama's for other reasons and rather a perilous situation because after the handover, the
01:00:31.100
Americans upgraded the canal. And they did so according to plans that Americans had drawn up,
01:00:37.340
they put in a third lane for boat traffic. So every time a boat transits the canal, a huge amount of
01:00:47.340
water is lost in the process of lifting and lowering boats. When the Americans drew up the plans for
01:00:56.380
a third lane, which the Americans did not complete, the Panamanians now have, it involved the damming of
01:01:03.020
a second river to provide more water. So that never happened. Panama is now in a drought and the drought
01:01:12.700
combined with the massive extra losses of water is resulting in the Panama Canal having greatly reduced
01:01:22.060
traffic, which is a huge hit to the Panamanian economy because each of the ships that transits
01:01:27.260
the canal hands over a huge pile of cash to be allowed to do it. And this is a major piece of
01:01:34.620
the Panamanian economy. We're at the beginning of the dry season. I don't know what's going to happen
01:01:39.100
by the end of the dry season, but it may go from a greatly reduced number of transits per day to,
01:01:46.060
I don't know, could it go to none? Maybe, which would be a big hit to the world economy actually.
01:01:51.100
This is why the Nicaraguans are considering completing that canal, right?
01:01:54.380
The Nicaraguans, that has been long under discussion for-
01:01:58.780
Yeah, right. So I don't know if the Nicaraguans are going to. At the moment, the Panamanians are using
01:02:04.940
the train that parallels the canal and basically lots of ships are offloading their cargo onto a train and
01:02:11.020
it's going overland to a ship on the other side. So in any case, Panama has a stability problem of its own
01:02:20.460
and that combined with the hazard posed by this migration. And if America closes the door on this
01:02:36.060
So last question, if you were to, I know that you will continue your journey of inquiry in this topic,
01:02:44.620
but who, where else would you go to get answers to what exactly is happening?
01:02:50.780
Well, if I, if I was, uh, if I was initiating an effort to figure out that question, I would
01:03:00.620
bring the people who have navigated the story this far together with, uh, whatever experts still exist
01:03:11.180
on the various related topics. I mean, frankly, I would talk to Michael Yon about all of the things
01:03:16.700
that are connected to this story, all the things he's seen all over the world. He has a very good
01:03:21.980
sense for who the players are and what he knows has to be brought together with an understanding of, um,
01:03:33.980
how these dynamics might play out. But I have to say, I'm not sure, I don't know how much time
01:03:41.260
we have. Again, I don't know if what I saw implies a, uh, another shoe is going to drop. How many of these
01:03:54.940
Chinese sleepwalkers have to end up in the U.S. before some other phase kicks off? Um, what was the
01:04:04.460
involvement of COVID? Is it just happenstance? Or is there something about the COVID crisis that is in
01:04:11.100
some way connected to what we are now? What do you mean? This is a place we have to be extremely
01:04:18.460
careful. I, I'm just looking at the various puzzle pieces and trying to imagine what they could mean.
01:04:25.020
We know that SARS-CoV-2 was the product of dual use research, which was bioweapons. The spike protein
01:04:37.180
in the so-called vaccines was taken from SARS-CoV-2. So it is also the product of bioweapons research.
01:04:47.180
Now, again, I will say it again because I'm concerned that people will take it as a conclusion
01:04:52.380
rather than a hypothesis. This is only a hypothesis. And when I say it's a hypothesis,
01:04:56.620
it doesn't mean that I believe it's true. It means that I believe it's plausible.
01:05:00.140
So the, the vaccines that people got, you may remember, I think we talked about it the last time
01:05:10.140
I was here. Um, people who get more than three of these shots have an interesting effect that, uh,
01:05:19.180
none of us saw coming, which is the triggering of something called IgG4. Ig means immunoglobulin.
01:05:26.620
It's a synonym for antibody. IgG is a class of immunoglobulin and IgG4 is a very interesting
01:05:33.660
subclass. IgG4's purpose, its biological purpose is to turn down an immune response. So, um, if your
01:05:44.460
body is reacting to something it shouldn't react to, the nature has granted us a mechanism for turning
01:05:51.100
down that reaction so that you don't die from, from an allergy effectively. This is what allergens
01:05:57.100
do is they try to trigger that attenuation signal in order to get the body to stop reacting to something
01:06:02.220
that it shouldn't be reacting to. The fact that these shots seem to trigger the production of IgG4
01:06:08.940
IgG4 is fascinating. It could just be, uh, an unexpected consequence that nobody saw coming.
01:06:19.500
But if you think about what it is that the folks who try to produce biological weapons want, they want a
01:06:27.500
weapon that, um, separates populations. In other words, a weapon is no good. If it's not contagious,
01:06:39.180
then you have to drop it on enough people to matter. That's difficult. If it is contagious, then your own
01:06:45.500
population risks getting it. So the problem is there's not a good design mechanism to deal with that. But if
01:06:56.460
the mRNA vaccines produced an attenuation signal in people who got more than three of these shots,
01:07:05.580
then conceivably that attenuation signal could cause that population of people to be induced not to
01:07:14.460
react to a pathogen. If you just added the spike protein to it, presumably it would trigger that signal.
01:07:22.220
So here's why I'm mentioning all of this arcane biology. The Chinese did not vaccinate their population
01:07:33.260
with mRNA technology or anything based on spike protein. So those two populations are now different in
01:07:40.860
this regard. Which, again, might mean nothing. But what we learned so painfully in the battle
01:07:56.700
against the mainstream narrative over these so-called vaccines is that
01:08:01.980
the reason that I say so-called vaccines and I try to say it every time is because what these things
01:08:11.420
turned out to be is gene therapy. But that doesn't even quite cover the problem with them.
01:08:17.900
They're gene therapy in the sense that they introduce a genetic message into your cells and they get your
01:08:22.380
cells to translate it. But there's also a part of our bodies that absorbs messages in a whole different
01:08:31.660
way. It's our immune system. Our immune system literally evolves on the scale of hours to days
01:08:38.940
when you get an illness. That's how we fend off illnesses that evolve so rapidly. And so
01:08:45.420
the message that was injected into so many people was like a firmware update. It was a firmware update
01:08:55.100
that caused the immune systems of those people to take up a new way of viewing the world. And that new
01:09:02.780
way of viewing the world seems to have produced this attenuation signal in response to the antigen,
01:09:11.340
the spike protein antigen. So am I seeing a mirage? Let's hope so.
01:09:19.740
So just to try to flesh out or put in non-specialist terms what you may be suggesting,
01:09:28.300
it's plausible that this was all an effort to make one population effectively immune from some new
01:09:35.260
bioweapon and another population susceptible to it? Is that what you're saying?
01:09:38.780
Uh, that is what I'm saying. And again, all it is, is possible. Right. I have no evidence that this
01:09:46.860
did happen except for the odd fact of this IgG4. Well, why didn't the Chinese use mRNA vaccines?
01:09:55.180
I don't know. Uh, it is, let's put it this way. Nobody should have. Of course. It was a technology that
01:10:02.060
was just simply not fit for human consumption. But, um, one does not know. And further, we got a lot
01:10:11.340
of nonsense out of China that caused people, including me, to be more frightened of SARS-CoV-2
01:10:22.140
You remember the videos of people collapsing dead in the street, right? That was nonsense. So
01:10:30.220
I don't know who's who on this playing field, and I don't know what they want. But to the extent that
01:10:35.980
there seemed to be an absolute obsession with injecting absolutely everybody with these so-called
01:10:44.380
vaccines, that was conspicuous. That did not seem like, uh, just greed and a desire to sell more shots.
01:10:52.060
I agree completely. It was bizarre. And the fact that we specifically, um,
01:10:58.940
insisted on vaccinating the entire military and threw people out who wouldn't
01:11:03.660
take it. We vaccinated all of our frontline workers. I mean, I mean, and at the time,
01:11:10.300
I remember I said to Heather on our show, I said, even if these are wonderful shots,
01:11:18.300
it seems insane, given that we don't know what their long-term impacts are, that we would vaccinate
01:11:27.180
The people we need most. Right. Exactly. That's, that's, that's hopefully just a mirage,
01:11:32.460
but it is a very frightening one. And I certainly hope that that's not what's going on. But if it is,
01:11:39.420
there is no time to waste in us figuring out what we have been induced to do and what the proper
01:11:45.820
countermeasures are. And so to the extent that people think that this is an abstraction, it is
01:11:51.020
not. If there is any possibility at all that that is the nature of what we went through, then it is
01:11:59.340
essential that we figure out how to neutralize the vulnerability. So I've kept you too long. So,
01:12:08.060
but just, this is my last question. Do you think it's odd, given the price this country paid for
01:12:14.540
something that China did, that in the official storyline from the White House, for example,
01:12:19.900
the Chinese are never the villain. It's always the Americans. It's always some segment of our
01:12:23.180
population. People who didn't take the vacs are the villains. I mean, the president just gave a speech
01:12:27.180
saying that the other day. Why has no one in authority in America said a bad word about China
01:12:33.180
since we discovered that they unleashed COVID on the world? That's pretty weird, isn't it?
01:12:37.180
It is weird. I have to say I'm stuck on this one because the more one knows about what role we did play,
01:12:47.580
the more that this is not a simple story of one country having screwed up and unleashed hell on
01:12:58.540
the world. This was a collaborative effort. Now, the question is whose team are those collaborators on?
01:13:04.300
Great question. I mean, I must say the whole thing I found shocking, but one of the most shocking
01:13:08.780
things I'd never heard a single other person mention, which is since when does the United States
01:13:12.620
collaborate with China on bioweapons research? You'd think they were adversaries, right? It's like
01:13:17.660
not just a uniparty, but a uni-world or something. Yes. Well, again, I think this is the place where
01:13:25.900
we have to allow ourselves to think these thoughts and then somebody should talk us off the ledge and
01:13:33.020
we should find out it's not nearly as bad as we fear. But we have to consider these things and reject
01:13:39.420
them rather than not think them. I don't know. I know some open-minded people and I know some
01:13:45.500
rigorously rational people. I know very few who combine those qualities as well as you do. And I
01:13:50.460
just have such a pleasure to hear you talk. So, but thank you. Thank you so much, Tucker.