The Megyn Kelly Show - Bonus： Bret Weinstein on The Tucker Carlson Podcast

00:00:00.000 Hey, Megyn Kelly listeners, it's Tucker Carlson. I'm actually a friend of Megyn's, not to brag.

00:00:05.480 We've had similar career paths. We're both now in independent media, thank heaven,

00:00:11.180 and more now that we're both in independent media. And in fact, there's really no media

00:00:15.760 in America apart from independent media. The other guys are just political operatives.

00:00:21.300 The Praetorian Guard of the ruling class. They're not only lying to you, they hate you.

00:00:26.000 If you want to know what's actually happening, if you want to know what's true,

00:00:29.020 if you're going to have any hope of being informed, you have to get out of NBC, CNN,

00:00:35.100 New York Times, Washington Post world, and get into independent media. And that's where we are now.

00:00:40.080 We've been doing a show on X for the past few months, and a bunch of people have asked if

00:00:43.720 they could listen to the show as a podcast. Well, you can. Check out this sample episode.

00:00:49.000 Subscribe now to the Tucker Carlson podcast.

00:00:59.020 If you've been following any of the stories over the past several years about the movement of

00:01:08.020 hundreds of thousands, millions of people illegally into the United States, you may have come across

00:01:13.460 the phrase Darien Gap. It's never really explained what it is. It's a physical place. It's between

00:01:18.280 Panama and Colombia. And it is a gap in the Pan-American highway. In other words, if you want to get from

00:01:23.100 South America to North America, overland, you have to go through the Darien Gap. But it's very difficult.

00:01:28.280 And yet, last year, at least 520,000 migrants crossed it to come here. How did that happen?

00:01:36.760 What is it? What is going on in the Darien Gap? It's the key, in some ways, to this story,

00:01:44.360 this immigration story. Well, almost no one has taken the time to go to the Darien Gap and find out

00:01:49.000 what's happening there. Leave it to a world-round biologist to do that. Not a journalist, a

00:01:53.880 biologist. That would be Dr. Brett Weinstein, who is the host, along with his wife, Heather,

00:02:00.020 of the Dark Horse podcast. And he was just there last week because he wanted to see it for himself.

00:02:04.660 We're honored to have him join us now to tell us what he found. Dr. Weinstein, thank you so much.

00:02:09.640 Very good to be back with you, Tucker.

00:02:11.100 So can you, that was my feeble attempt to ad-lib an explanation of the Darien Gap, but can you

00:02:15.080 a little more precisely tell us what it is? Sure. You did a pretty good job. The Pan-American

00:02:20.220 Highway is a road that literally goes from Prudhoe Bay, Alaska, to the southern tip of South America.

00:02:25.820 It is unbroken, but for a 60-mile stretch between Panama and Colombia. It is not a canyon, as many

00:02:34.280 people imagine the gap must be. It's an impenetrable piece of jungle, and the road has never been completed

00:02:40.260 there, not because it's technically impossible to do, but because the combination of the difficulty

00:02:46.220 of putting a road through that jungle and the danger of doing so has meant that North and South 0.94

00:02:53.280 America have been separated in this way for the entire history of that road.

00:02:58.120 So you often hear people say it's a perilous journey to get across that 60 miles of the Darien Gap.

00:03:03.580 Is that a fair assessment?

00:03:05.200 It's beyond fair. Let's just say I did my graduate work not far from Darien. I did it in

00:03:13.020 central Panama, and the jungle in the Darien Gap is some place that one does not go without careful

00:03:22.980 preparation. It is quite dangerous. It involves a number of conditions that make it perilous. For one

00:03:31.560 thing, the Cordillera, which is the mountain range that is effectively the continental divide, the same

00:03:37.500 continental divide that we see in Colorado, for example, continues down through Central America, and it passes

00:03:42.920 through Darien. So imagine a very difficult jungle without proper trails through it in which migrants have to 0.84

00:03:52.020 come up that mountain range, and they're almost all unprepared. They don't have the kinds of materials you would want

00:03:59.420 with you. So they're soaking wet from rain. They're sleeping on the ground, and so they get hypothermia.

00:04:05.560 It's extremely slippery, so people are constantly sliding down hills, breaking limbs. They sleep in

00:04:13.120 their shoes and get trench foot. It's a very treacherous journey, and the difficulty of it should not be

00:04:20.400 underrated.

00:04:20.960 You wonder why there's not a permanent team of New York Times reporters there trying to tell the rest of us what

00:04:27.240 exactly is happening. Half a million people move through there in one year. How did you wind up there?

00:04:33.300 Well, I wound up there because Michael Yan had been sending me materials thinking that I would be interested in

00:04:41.200 what was taking place in Panama, and of course, I was utterly fascinated by what I was seeing. Now, some of

00:04:48.280 your viewers may not know Michael. Michael is a former Green Beret who has refashioned himself.

00:04:56.720 Well, the last time I was on your program, I talked about Goliath.

00:04:59.340 And if there's a Goliath, there's a David, and I would argue that Michael Yan is like David's eyes. He's been

00:05:08.000 traversing the world trying to understand a story that as yet has no name, and that story is partially in the

00:05:17.480 Darien of Panama, and it's all sorts of other places, including in various UN installations. There's some story that is

00:05:26.540 difficult to piece together, and he's been physically traveling to all of its various epicenters and

00:05:33.600 showing people. And that is the story of mass migration. Mass migration, I now think, is a piece

00:05:39.420 of it. Now, when I went to Panama, I had a hard time explaining to myself why I was going because...

00:05:47.780 Those are the best trips, aren't they?

00:05:49.540 Yes. They are.

00:05:50.960 The serendipity of it is important. But it was hard for me to justify in my head

00:05:56.240 going to such a place when it wasn't going to change. You know, the videos he had sent me

00:06:03.080 were quite clear. So what was it I was going to learn by standing there that I couldn't also learn

00:06:09.520 by looking at these things? Well, I'm very glad I went because it did actually radically change my

00:06:14.580 understanding of what I was looking at for reasons I better understand now. One needs to see the

00:06:23.320 physical relationship between the various sites that he showed us in order to really piece together

00:06:31.380 what this story is.

00:06:33.360 So you went, if I can summarize what I think you're saying, because you're a researcher and you wanted

00:06:37.780 to know what's actually happening. The thing that gets de-emphasized when we talk about

00:06:43.860 high-quality science is the degree to which it is informed by well-tutored intuition. So I had a

00:06:53.820 sense that I needed to see it for reasons that my conscious mind wasn't certain of at the time.

00:06:58.920 And I followed that, and I'm very glad I did.

00:07:01.900 Follow your instincts. Boy, that is the lesson of so many moments in life. So what did you find,

00:07:07.840 and what did you conclude?

00:07:08.960 Well, I concluded a number of things, and the whole thing was so mentally disruptive that I'm still in

00:07:17.780 the process of unpacking what it was and debating with myself about what it means. But I'll give you

00:07:24.060 some basics. But I do have to ask something of your audience. There's part of this that is just me

00:07:30.820 reporting what I saw and what I learned from Michael and others on our trip. And there's part

00:07:36.680 of it that's me speculating. And I'm trying to do it as responsibly as possible, because a great deal

00:07:42.600 hinges on what the actual explanation for what we looked at is. So when I'm speculating, I'm going to

00:07:49.600 be careful to tell you that that's what I'm doing, and people should treat hypotheses as hypotheses

00:07:54.580 and nothing more. But the first place that this trip really changed my understanding was I went down

00:08:02.620 thinking that I was going to see a migration. And other people have called it an invasion.

00:08:11.060 And there is something troubling to me about the tension between these two things. I mean,

00:08:16.420 which is it? And I came away with the sense that it's probably literally both. And the way that

00:08:26.540 manifests is you have a massive movement of people through the Darien from Colombia. Now, I did not

00:08:36.760 know when I went down, I now know that most of those people actually start in Ecuador. And the reason they

00:08:41.820 start in Ecuador is that Ecuador has a policy where they don't require a visa. So people coming from all

00:08:47.020 over the world can land in Quito, Ecuador, find their way through Colombia, move through the Darien.

00:08:52.980 And if they survive it, which not all of them do, they can then get relatively directly all the way

00:08:58.120 through Central America into the US. But that's not all that's going on. So we went to several of the,

00:09:07.680 I guess you would call them transit camps. These are places where people who have come by whatever

00:09:15.200 route to Darien, where they recover if they're injured, and they have to accumulate money, because

00:09:26.220 even if they settle out on their journey with enough money to buy a bus ticket to get them through

00:09:31.740 Central America, by the time they've come through Darien, almost all of them have been robbed,

00:09:35.840 and much worse, actually. People are being robbed, women are being raped, and lots of people are dying.

00:09:45.480 The migrants talk about stepping over bodies in Darien. And for somebody with experience in these kinds 1.00

00:09:51.740 of jungles, it's not hard to see how without a support network, the kinds of stuff that can happen

00:09:57.700 in the jungle can become deadly very quickly. Things can spiral out of control.

00:10:03.400 So you have all of these migrants from all over the world, many of them are South American, but that is 1.00

00:10:10.060 by no means the whole story. People are coming from the Middle East, we met Afghans, we met people

00:10:15.260 from the Caribbean, Haitians, there are people from Yemen, Iran. It's shocking, really. This looks 0.97

00:10:21.540 superficially like the migration of Central Americans that you and I remember from when we were kids.

00:10:26.760 Yes. And there is some of that. But that's not the whole story. Now, there's a camp we went to called

00:10:36.280 Canaan Membrio. It's on the Canaan River at the town of Membrio. And Canaan Membrio, we were allowed to

00:10:43.900 walk around at will, and we could interact with the migrants at will. We were allowed to take pictures.

00:10:50.500 There was no concern about this. We just had to check in with the Senna Front. The Senna Front is the

00:10:55.000 Panamanian Border Authority. But once we had checked in, we were on our own. And people were

00:11:01.180 interested in talking, including migrants. So we had many conversations with migrants. And

00:11:07.040 these migrants, I have to tell you, when they come to the southern border of the US, 0.76

00:11:14.140 they get through on the basis that they are political refugees. They aren't. When we talk to 1.00

00:11:22.060 them in the transit camp, everybody tells the same story. They are fleeing economic collapse. And they

00:11:30.880 are fleeing in the direction of what they perceive to be economic opportunity. And of course, in American

00:11:36.280 law, these two things are very different. We protect people who are seeking political asylum, but we do

00:11:41.940 not offer automatic economic asylum. And the reason for that is fairly clear, which is that in order to

00:11:49.880 protect people economically, we end up robbing Americans of their economic well-being. And

00:11:57.100 that's just not something that people are entitled to, no matter how much compassion you may have

00:12:02.280 for people fleeing Venezuela. It is not our responsibility, especially not without some 1.00

00:12:08.660 sort of a plan and agreement about how many people are going to come through and in what way we're going

00:12:13.640 to take care of them and how that's going to get paid for. We don't do that. But in any case, you get the

00:12:20.860 same story from everybody. They're fleeing an economic crisis. And they're moving north. And many of them

00:12:28.960 have terrible stories about what happened to them in the Darien Gap. So that's one thing. And you see,

00:12:35.700 when you go into this camp, Canaman Brio, you see the hallmark of the international community. You see

00:12:42.920 NGO emblems all over the place, proudly American flags. They've paid for the water system, the toilets 0.99

00:12:50.820 that are there. The United States government is facilitating this economic migration, and it's

00:12:57.120 unmistakable, as is an organization called the IOM, which is the International Organization for Migration.

00:13:04.660 It's a branch of the UN. And if you read their charter, you will discover that this organization

00:13:12.140 believes that migration is an inherently good thing, that it's always good. And so they see it as their

00:13:17.660 job to bring it about, to facilitate it. And in this case, that's particularly tragic because their

00:13:26.780 desire to induce people to migrate is causing people who are woefully unprepared for the Darien Gap

00:13:34.120 to try to make that journey. And the humanitarian tragedy is immense.

00:13:41.860 So the UN, which the United States is, I think, the largest donor by far,

00:13:45.420 is paying for this with the US government?

00:13:51.540 Yep. Apparently they are. Now, Panamanians are largely unaware. Some are aware that there's a

00:13:56.500 migration. But in large measure, this migration, once it gets through the Darien Gap, boards, buses,

00:14:04.020 and effectively what I now understand is that all of the countries in Central America are effectively

00:14:11.060 waving the migrants through because those migrants are not going to stop in these countries. As long as 1.00

00:14:18.560 they keep going to the US, these countries are willing to remain silent about it. Now, in 1991,

00:14:25.840 Heather and I actually traveled the other direction through Central America, through all of the countries

00:14:30.780 south to Costa Rica. And all of those borders are tightly controlled.

00:14:36.560 Oh, I've been, yeah.

00:14:37.600 And so it is very surprising to find those controls are effectively lifted here. That's clearly the result

00:14:45.260 of a massive coordination. And of course, it's resulting in a large migration. But what I was

00:14:54.640 going to tell you about the fact that this migration doesn't appear to me to be just one thing is that we

00:15:00.180 went to another camp called San Vicente. And everything in San Vicente is different than it was at Canaan

00:15:08.280 Mambria. San Vicente, first of all, it's not a town. This is a camp that is built as a transit camp. It's built

00:15:16.600 of containers and various objects to house people. And it is almost entirely Chinese. Now, there were

00:15:26.120 Chinese folks. Chinese? Chinese. That's a long way from China. It sure is. And what's more, in this camp, the rule 0.99

00:15:37.460 that you're able to go in and walk around and talk to people is not in evidence. The center front, the

00:15:45.300 Panamanian border control, actually forbid us to go into the camp. So we had to stay on the outside of it. We were

00:15:53.160 also forbidden to photograph it. So what photographs we have were taken covertly. But the most striking

00:16:03.060 thing... Wait, may I ask? So is it the government of China, do you believe, that's funding this?

00:16:09.120 I... Well, let me tell you the other thing I found, and then I think the answer to that will become

00:16:14.860 clearer. Outside of the San Vicente camp, the Chinese migrants are... You can interact with them. There are a 1.00

00:16:26.700 couple of shops where they go to buy water or snacks or whatever. And so you can interact with them at

00:16:33.320 those places. They are the opposite of forthcoming. They have no interest in talking to outsiders.

00:16:43.160 And I've been to dangerous places before. I've been to places where people fear their government and

00:16:49.820 can't talk to you because they feel it's not safe. This didn't feel like that at all. This felt like

00:16:56.640 people who did not want to share information because it would be a mistake to do so. And what's more,

00:17:05.200 there was an incident where Michael, who has lived in China, he's been all over the world,

00:17:10.860 and he started up or tried to start up a conversation with a guy who claimed to be from Korea. And Michael

00:17:22.520 tripped him up and got him to speak Chinese. And then there was uproarious laughter at the fact that he had tried

00:17:29.220 to pull this caper on Michael. So it is not a friendly migration. These Chinese folks who are 1.00

00:17:39.880 overwhelmingly male, military age, there are women present. I realized only this morning that in

00:17:48.380 thinking back, I saw few if any children in the Chinese migration. They were everywhere in the other 0.54

00:17:57.300 places we visited. But they were not present, as far as I remember, in the San Vicente camp.

00:18:04.980 So what I have pieced together, and this is a place where I'm going to speculate, this is a hypothesis,

00:18:12.660 this is not a conclusion. But what I began to suspect was that the Chinese migration is actually being

00:18:26.180 cloaked by the economic migration coming from South America. And that that is consistent with the

00:18:37.120 observation that it has some different motivation. I learned from Michael that the Chinese migrants in 0.76

00:18:43.420 the San Vicente camp largely bypassed the Darien. Because they have money, they can go by boat and

00:18:50.440 they can skip most of the peril of the Darien Gap. And in any case, it's a very different phenomenon.

00:18:57.880 And to see it housed so separately is quite conspicuous. I do not know what the rationale

00:19:05.460 for this would be.

00:19:06.180 Can you estimate, do you have any sense of how many Chinese, these are Chinese nationals?

00:19:10.020 They seem to be.

00:19:11.540 How many did you see-ish? Talking 60 or 600 or?

00:19:16.800 It's very hard to say because we were held at one edge of the camp. So I probably saw

00:19:21.820 150 faces, but the camp is deeper. Now, Michael does some drone reconnaissance, and he's also been

00:19:32.680 to this camp many times. He would definitely be the person to ask in terms of a good estimate for

00:19:38.240 how many of these folks there are. But the degree to which this is not consistent with a...

00:19:48.680 Well, let me back up a second. I regard the Chinese people as victims of an oppressive

00:19:59.860 government that I fear for my own reasons.

00:20:03.240 For sure.

00:20:03.520 So there's nothing about the fact that these folks are Chinese that throws me. And if they 1.00

00:20:09.000 were fleeing that government, I'm not sure what we should do about it, but I'm certainly supportive

00:20:14.580 of their desire, I would feel a great deal of sympathy. And in fact, I felt a great deal of

00:20:18.860 sympathy for all of the other migrants that I met. But the sense of, it's really hard not to use the

00:20:25.720 term hostility that I felt from the Chinese was particularly unsettling given that I know where

00:20:31.140 they're headed, right? They're headed to the US.

00:20:34.860 And just to be totally clear on that point, this was not a work camp for a, you know,

00:20:40.060 Chinese infrastructure project. No, it was not. And what I know is taking place at the southern

00:20:51.120 border of the US makes this even more disturbing because although the controls at the southern

00:20:58.640 border are still there for those of us who are crossing legally, the lack of any control for those

00:21:04.480 who are crossing illegally is stunning. So if I may just compare, when I came back from Panama, I 0.99

00:21:13.300 approached a kiosk with my passport ready to scan it. I didn't have to. A camera took my picture. And

00:21:20.500 although I didn't know that my picture was about to be taken, I hadn't taken my hat off, I was wearing

00:21:24.980 my glasses. The kiosk told me I didn't need to put my passport there. And then a customs officer behind me

00:21:33.300 called my name, Brett. He said, do you have anything to declare? I said, no. He said, you're good to go.

00:21:38.020 So we have technology that is capable of identifying a person with that level of ease to the point that

00:21:47.380 they knew exactly who was coming through the border. But we are not apparently taking that information

00:21:53.700 when people cross our southern border. What we're doing at most is asking them their name and their

00:21:59.360 birth date and taking them at their word. But no biometric collection?

00:22:03.960 Apparently not. Which means that, you know, even if this were simply a matter of our system being

00:22:10.540 overwhelmed by migrants, you would at least want to collect that information so that if a troublemaker 0.87

00:22:15.660 did come through, which is inevitable that they will, you could begin to figure out who it might be,

00:22:20.800 right? So that, you know, they had an identity. Even if it was just connected to biometric data,

00:22:25.580 that would be useful. But we're not doing it. So what I think I saw, my hypothesis for what I think

00:22:34.380 I saw is that there is an invasion taking place. You know, it's not a sleeper cell because it's on

00:22:43.040 the move. But I started to think of them as sleepwalkers. And there's also a massive migration.

00:22:50.160 And the migration is causing it, is causing us to have difficulty discussing the invasion,

00:22:56.820 which is a distinct phenomenon.

00:22:59.540 And different simply from desperate peasants from poor countries coming here for work. 0.55

00:23:04.480 There was no desperation in evidence. And Michael also gave us a video, which I can't establish the

00:23:11.100 origin of. But it is a Chinese cartoon set to happy music of a migrant moving through Central America,

00:23:23.720 changing modes of transportation. And it basically indicates here's the route you will travel.

00:23:28.700 Now, was it produced by the CCP? I can't be certain of that. But that certainly

00:23:32.880 is suggested that this is a message about how to make this journey for what purpose, I don't know. But

00:23:41.400 I do not believe that the people I encountered had left China without the knowledge of their

00:23:46.940 government. I believe their government has some reason to have facilitated.

00:23:52.900 But the administration must be aware of this.

00:23:56.920 Our administration?

00:23:57.580 Yes.

00:23:57.800 It is. But here's the problem I've been wrestling with.

00:24:05.140 It used to be that it was hard to convince people that our system was deeply corrupt. Back in

00:24:11.620 the days when those of us who were focused on this issue used to talk about campaign finance reform.

00:24:16.260 It was a problem that you could grapple with. It was of that scale. Now we have a whole different

00:24:25.100 level of corruption. And here's the question that I've never heard a good answer to. What stops our

00:24:33.940 enemies internationally from buying influence over our system in the same way that corporations

00:24:40.760 do and did?

00:24:42.280 I can't think of anything and I've never heard it.

00:24:46.580 Patriotism?

00:24:48.540 Right.

00:24:48.980 Sorry, just kidding.

00:24:49.620 I don't think there is any such safeguard. And if there is such a safeguard, I would like to know

00:24:56.240 how often it has been triggered. Certainly our enemies will have noticed that we have a system

00:25:00.420 that's pay for play. And it's certainly, I mean, it's perfectly in keeping with Sun Tzu at the very

00:25:06.620 least. It would be far cheaper, easier, safer from their perspective to persuade us to harm ourselves

00:25:17.140 than to go to war with us. So again, I don't know. I'm a biologist. I'm, you know, this is not my...

00:25:26.780 Well, you're an observer of things. That's what the study of biology is, right?

00:25:30.180 It is. And unfortunately, this is the most parsimonious explanation for what I've seen

00:25:34.580 now is that somebody has persuaded us to endorse a policy that is decidedly not in our interest.

00:25:46.200 And I will also say that I've become aware in the process of doing this, that the Chinese have a

00:25:54.160 rather famous plan for the world called the Belt and Road Initiative.

00:26:00.180 In which they have scoped out where the resources are and how they're to get from one place to

00:26:06.780 another. What many people who know about the Belt and Road Initiative don't know is that they have

00:26:12.540 also, you know, the Belt and Road Initiative is largely about Africa and Asia. But apparently,

00:26:19.680 there's been a considerable amount of thinking in China about how Belt and Road would work in the

00:26:24.680 new world as well. And it's in full operation. I mean, St. Croix, which is an American protectorate,

00:26:30.180 St. Croix, next to, you know, it's American Virgin Islands. Its road system is built by China.

00:26:37.920 There you go. And there's an awful lot of investment in Panama. And there is certainly

00:26:43.500 talk in China about opening the Darien Gap.

00:26:47.180 Opening it, paving it.

00:26:48.380 Paving it, right.

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00:27:25.580 Another thing that Michael showed us, which I, I, it's maybe the most surprising thing I saw,

00:27:37.040 is a bridge building project at Javitsa, which is the town at the very end of the Pan American

00:27:45.060 Highway in Darien. So there is a massive bridge being built.

00:27:51.200 Not a bamboo and vine bridge. Oh, no. This is a massive concrete and steel highway bridge

00:27:58.360 being built over the Chukunake River into the Darien. What's on the other side is impenetrable

00:28:06.980 jungle and a few villages. This bridge does not make any sense.

00:28:12.740 So any idea who's paying for that?

00:28:15.920 That is much less clear. There are no signs. Most people in Panama are completely unaware that

00:28:21.160 any such project exists. There are no proud signs as there are in the transit camps.

00:28:28.120 I will say we spoke to the foreman of the project. I mean, the project is actually pretty impressive.

00:28:34.400 You know, it's a construction site. Nobody's standing around. They are building a bridge and

00:28:37.700 they are doing so impressively.

00:28:42.740 Do the workers seem to be local Panamanians?

00:28:44.800 They do. The foreman was Panamanian and we asked him what the purpose of the bridge was

00:28:51.300 and he didn't know, but he speculated that it was to bring yucca from Darien, from the villages on the

00:29:00.580 other side, into Panama.

00:29:02.580 That's a low margin agricultural product for those who are watching. It doesn't justify a steel

00:29:07.780 reinforced bridge across the river.

00:29:09.120 There's nothing about this that makes any sense. I mean, yucca, it's like potato. It grows all over

00:29:16.640 Panama and all over the world's tropics. There would be no reason to grow it in Darien. In fact,

00:29:22.500 there are very good reasons not to encourage more of it to be grown in Darien given the

00:29:26.260 priceless habitat that will be cleared to grow yucca there for no good reason. There's lots of

00:29:31.600 better places to do it. So what I was left with is the sense that there is a bridge going in

00:29:39.500 and it has a purpose that has not been shared with the Panamanians. That purpose really has to be,

00:29:48.560 as far as I can tell, it's got to be one of two things. Either this is about bringing lumber

00:29:56.440 out of Darien National Park, which would be obscene.

00:30:00.800 Cutting hardwood.

00:30:01.660 Cutting hardwood. This is priceless hardwood that is in part still standing because it is such a

00:30:08.280 difficult jungle to access. So it's possible that somebody has targeted that wood and not told the

00:30:14.820 Panamanians and they're building this bridge for that purpose. But the other potential purpose is that

00:30:21.700 they're intending to finish the Pan American Highway through Darien, which is something that would

00:30:27.840 certainly need to be discussed to be reasonable. Now, in the aftermath of our trip, Anne Vanderstiel

00:30:37.360 put up a video sharing just a view of this construction site and her perspective on it. And this caused a

00:30:46.220 small scandal in Panama because the Panamanians weren't aware. And suddenly this was on the

00:30:51.460 internet and they were talking about what is this bridge at the southern end of the Panamerican

00:30:58.000 highway in Panama. And the Panamanians claimed that it was just to reach the villages on the other side.

00:31:08.300 So I'm left with the very odd sense that their cover story is that this is a boondoggle, right?

00:31:16.540 If this was a boondoggle and they were just putting money into a project that meant nothing,

00:31:20.640 then that would explain the bridge to nowhere. But this didn't look like a boondoggle. This looked

00:31:27.360 like somebody wanted the bridge. And given the Belt and Road Initiative and the sense that the Chinese 0.96

00:31:34.300 have about what the future should look like and in which direction resources should move and for what

00:31:39.980 purpose, it's hard for me not to connect the dots between these things, right? You have a massive

00:31:46.040 migration of people, labor. You have a likely invasion of military age, largely Chinese males who are not 1.00

00:32:00.120 forthcoming about why they have embarked on their journey and appear to be encouraged by something in

00:32:04.900 China to do this. So, you know, I don't know. Is there...

00:32:10.440 Given what you're describing and what you saw with your own eyes,

00:32:13.840 doubtless you have seen Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois' comments in the Senate where you said,

00:32:18.840 hey, we should let people who came here illegally join the U.S. military. 1.00

00:32:23.860 What does that make you think? Well, this makes me think back to the COVID crisis and some thoughts

00:32:35.620 that I was developing then about the insanity of throwing highly trained people in many cases out

00:32:44.840 of the U.S. military for refusing to take the so-called vaccines. Now, my sense at the time was

00:32:53.400 that that likely had the purpose of getting rid of the kinds of people who refuse moral orders.

00:33:02.220 That's right.

00:33:02.680 And that it created a much more compliant force. Now, what happens if migrants are given 0.98

00:33:10.100 citizenship in exchange for military service in the U.S. military? That seems to create a major

00:33:19.080 hazard because the perverse incentives for a migrant and the lack of allegiance to fundamental American 0.87

00:33:27.440 values means that that would be just the kind of force that could be used to impose tyranny on

00:33:34.440 other Americans because they would have, you know, no history with us that would cause them to think twice.

00:33:43.040 We've seen this before with the Roman legions. That's exactly my conclusion. Does that sound

00:33:50.660 like a crazy conclusion?

00:33:53.820 I think we have to stop punishing ourselves for considering things that once seemed crazy.

00:34:00.860 The pattern of recent history. I'm sorry, I want to repeat that. I think we have to stop punishing

00:34:05.860 ourselves for considering things that once seems crazy. Yep. Getting that tattoo. Yeah. Well, I mean,

00:34:13.000 this is where we are. And it is, it's causing me to do something that I'm reluctant to do. My training

00:34:21.200 is as a scientist. And scientists have to have a substantial degree of caution and skepticism to do

00:34:32.840 the work. But in order even to reach the possibilities that do fully explain what we're seeing, we have to

00:34:39.740 be ready to consider the larger picture. Now, I was talking to Chris Martinson while we were in Panama.

00:34:49.660 We were on our last day trying to just unpack what we had seen and what it meant to us. Chris is also a

00:34:56.840 scientist. And people can check this out on the Dark Horse Locals community. We've posted the entire

00:35:05.880 conversation in which he and I reached some, I think we spooked ourselves trying to reason through

00:35:11.580 what this might be. And he reminded me of the massive number of surplus males that China now has as a

00:35:25.320 result. I was thinking the exact same thing as a result of the one child policy. The one child 0.65

00:35:29.420 policy. Now, here's the part that I suddenly realized as soon as he reminded me of that.

00:35:36.060 I wrote an essay years ago about the one child policy and the paradox of a heavy bias in favor of

00:35:45.660 males. And the reason that this is a paradox is that there's a principle in evolution well understood. 0.74

00:35:51.780 It's the result of the work of a guy named Ronald Fisher. And what Fisher realized was that although

00:35:57.820 males and females can be very different in how many offspring they produce, and because a male could

00:36:02.540 produce thousands of offspring in a lifetime, and a female, if we're talking about humans, could, 0.93

00:36:07.360 I think the maximum is something impressive like 60. But nonetheless, because males can produce a lot

00:36:14.060 more, it seems that it might be evolutionarily advantageous to be one. But it's not because for every

00:36:19.940 overperforming male, there's an underperforming male, or at least one. And the result is that sex 0.59

00:36:26.700 ratios, no matter how different males and females are in their maximum reproductive capacity, they tend

00:36:32.340 to default to one to one. If you have a society that has too many females, you should produce a male. And 1.00

00:36:37.960 if you have a society with too many males, you should produce a female, which tends to balance these 0.99

00:36:42.060 things out. That logic should have applied to China. The fact is there were lots of excess males. And if

00:36:51.120 you put yourself in the mindset of a Chinese person having a child, if there are too many males, you

00:36:57.420 should want to produce a female. A male is very unlikely to find a mate. A female is certain to find 0.87

00:37:02.500 one. And what's more, she has her pick of the litter. Yes. So that logic should have caused the sex 0.99

00:37:08.880 ratio to return to 50-50, and yet it did not. Which caused me, all those years ago when I wrote this

00:37:14.580 piece, to wonder if there wasn't another evolutionary force in play. If evolution did not have a mechanism

00:37:22.860 for producing armies. That when a country was in a position to expand, that producing excess males does pay off 0.77

00:37:32.060 at a lineage level. That excess males who have no reproductive prospects at home become an effective

00:37:39.180 weapon against neighboring populations. So I can't believe that that did not occur to me as I was

00:37:46.760 preparing for this trip, but it has occurred to me now. I guess it didn't occur to me because

00:37:53.700 when I wrote that all those years ago, I was expecting to see evidence that this was turning into a military

00:37:59.320 force and I didn't see it. So I stopped thinking about it. But now I wonder if that isn't exactly

00:38:05.320 right. And if what happened is that a male biased population in China was produced as a weapon,

00:38:15.220 and if that weapon is now being deployed. That's remarkable. So that would, so, so far we have the U.S.

00:38:25.460 government abetting this, the branch of the U.N., Chinese government. Did you see any other funders or

00:38:35.280 apparent funders of this? Well, I'm not expert in this area at all. We did go to a place, so I guess

00:38:44.840 I didn't say this, 25 years ago I worked in Panama. I lived on Barrow, Colorado Island, which is an island

00:38:51.260 administered by the Smithsonian Institution in the Panama Canal. It was a hilltop that got isolated

00:38:56.400 when the canal filled, and the Smithsonian took it over because it was a marvelous opportunity to

00:39:02.600 have an isolated piece of forest that they could watch over time and learn how tropical biology works.

00:39:08.300 So I had the privilege of living in the canal for 18 months, and I got very familiar with the canal.

00:39:12.400 You lived in the Panama Canal for 18 months?

00:39:14.700 Absolutely did. We used to swim in the waters. For whatever reason, the crocodiles that inhabit

00:39:19.980 those waters, if we would encounter them while swimming, they would turn and go the other way,

00:39:24.300 which was lovely. Apparently that's no longer true, and you can't swim there. But yeah, I lived there.

00:39:29.420 What were you studying?

00:39:30.840 Tent-making bats.

00:39:34.940 I know that sounds-

00:39:35.840 I'm only asking, really for your benefit, because I want you to remember just how dramatically your life

00:39:40.060 has changed. Yeah. Well, I still love tent-making bats. It's a little miracle that exists in these

00:39:47.340 forests. But anyway, maybe we'll talk about that another time. But I was well familiar with the

00:39:52.780 Canal Zone because we used to, the Canal Zone, in fact, the military, this was before the handover to

00:39:58.060 the Panamanians. So the military made it possible for the Smithsonian to work there, and we were

00:40:05.100 constantly interacting. We were going on their bases. We'd go on their bases to watch a movie.

00:40:10.380 So we were using this military infrastructure, which has now all been handed over to Panama.

00:40:15.260 And what impressed me was when we went back specifically to Fort Clayton, something that

00:40:22.780 is now called the City of Knowledge. The City of Knowledge is housed in, or its central building

00:40:33.020 is the former Army South Building from the U.S. Southern Command. So this is both an important

00:40:42.300 fact for the military, that U.S. Southern Command is a segment of the military dedicated to protecting

00:40:51.740 American interests in the Caribbean and all of Latin America, south of Mexico. And it has this

00:40:59.260 impressive structure in Fort Clayton, immediately above the Las Flores locks.

00:41:08.300 So it was both physically there to protect the canal, and it was metaphorically this imposing

00:41:17.180 presence looking out over.

00:41:18.700 To project power cell.

00:41:19.980 Absolutely. And after the handover, all of the military bases that were in the canal zone were

00:41:25.580 handed over. And this one has been taken over by the UN and the international community and all the

00:41:30.220 NGOs have offices there. And it reminded me of how many things in our society had their purpose

00:41:39.740 inverted. Universities used to exist to make young people smarter and more analytically capable.

00:41:48.780 Universities now make people stupider and convince them of things that just simply aren't true. 0.96

00:41:53.580 Yes. Newspapers used to help us understand what the facts were about events that were taking place 0.98

00:42:01.740 that involve us. Now newspapers obscure the facts from us. They're the last to report the news after

00:42:07.180 we embarrass them into doing it. So this structure that once was a testament to the achievement of the

00:42:15.900 Panama Canal and the importance of protecting the Panama Canal is now involved

00:42:23.740 in what looks like obvious subterfuge against American interests, right? An organization that

00:42:31.980 is dedicated to facilitating migration without asking Americans, without there being any plan at all

00:42:37.900 for how the well-being of these people is going to be financed. Their office, IOM, is sitting, if this

00:42:47.340 building, U.S. Army south at the Las Flores locks, it's like a person. And at that person's left knee

00:43:00.140 is the IOM looking out at the Bridge of the Americas, which when I was there was the only way to cross the

00:43:05.820 Panama Canal, right? It's almost the exact inversion of what these structures were built for. And how many

00:43:13.260 times do you have to see the inversion of something to begin to get the sense that that's something has

00:43:18.700 taken over our system and it's become sick? Well, it's all, and I'm sure there's a biological 0.97

00:43:27.500 term to describe the process of maybe cancer, the body eating itself. I mean, it seems like the

00:43:33.820 structures set in place to protect the country are now at war with the country.

00:43:39.980 I do have the sense that the country, the structures, and it's not even just the country,

00:43:46.940 it's the West. And, you know, I view myself as very much a patriot of the country, but I'm also a

00:43:52.700 patriot of the West, which I see the country as having, maybe it's slightly overstated to say

00:44:00.140 invented the concept. But in any case, yes, the West appears to be

00:44:09.900 sick with an infection. And again, I don't want to drag you into too much biology, but

00:44:18.460 everybody knows what a parasite is. There's also something called a parasitoid. And a parasitoid is

00:44:25.420 a parasite that kills its host in the process of doing its job. And I'm concerned that we may have

00:44:31.500 a parasitoid that is actually at least indifferent to the destruction of the United States and the West

00:44:41.180 and is acting accordingly. So I know it's become your life's work or part of your life's work to

00:44:46.460 figure out what exactly that entity is. Are you any closer?

00:44:54.300 I suppose I am. I mean, maybe I'm part way. And that part involves, I now look at a map with much

00:45:08.940 more skepticism that I understand what it means. That we have become so accustomed to looking at something

00:45:15.020 like a nation like China and thinking of it as an entity that behaves in some way. And

00:45:24.300 something about the

00:45:29.100 ease with which various power structures interact suggests that we...

00:45:36.300 I don't understand why my government is behaving in a way that seems to be

00:45:41.020 sabotaging the interests of average Americans, but it is, undeniably.

00:45:49.180 It seems to be acting on behalf of our enemies. I don't know whether that could conceivably be

00:45:58.300 because there's actually hostility. I doubt it. But my guess is what there is is just

00:46:04.780 a rampant outbreak of amorality where people are willing to do whatever is expedient. And that has

00:46:14.380 made the game rather easy for powers that be elsewhere. And I don't know where the analysis becomes absurd.

00:46:26.540 I have watched policy on the West Coast make the quality of life drop spectacularly so that

00:46:37.980 people are fleeing, including wealthy people. And I look at wealthy people fleeing California, for example,

00:46:45.260 them. And I think something about this story doesn't add up. It's rather a lot like building up a population

00:46:53.420 with too many males. There's something else that explains this because at the end of the day,

00:46:59.100 wealthy elites are going to end up with the best real estate. So the fact that they're fleeing either

00:47:04.940 means that which elites are going to end up with that real estate is about to switch. Maybe this was

00:47:09.180 a real estate scam. Malibu will always be occupied by rich people. It will. But which rich people? Yes.

00:47:17.340 And I wonder, having seen something that very much looks like an undeclared invasion moving through

00:47:28.700 Central America, knowing that the Chinese Communist Party thinks in terms of long-term planning over the

00:47:38.700 movement of the movement of the movement of people and resources, that our system, we've effectively

00:47:45.500 opened the gates of the city to anybody who's willing to pay to corrupt our political structures.

00:47:53.340 There is a story you could tell in which the CCP has a different understanding of what the future

00:48:00.380 of our country is than most Americans do. And well, let's just put it this way. Maybe I'm imagining what

00:48:09.420 I saw. But if I'm not, then all of those Chinese migrants who don't want to talk about what they're 1.00

00:48:15.500 doing moving into the US, they're going to do something. I don't know what it's going to be, but

00:48:23.660 I don't know when we became so naive about the fact that there are parties abroad who do not wish us

00:48:36.380 well and would not mind at all seeing us removed from our position of power. And who knows? Maybe

00:48:44.220 some of us displaced from the continent we live on? I can't say.

00:48:49.180 I mean, China is literally the other side of the world. It's also not Haiti. I mean, 0.67

00:48:56.060 there's economic opportunity in China, but there's also economic opportunity for unemployed Chinese

00:49:01.900 in the Philippines or Vietnam, Malaysia. It's not obvious that they would come to the Darien Gap to get

00:49:09.820 here. Well, the Darien Gap is a very strange place to have gone. For one thing, as Chris Martinson points

00:49:18.780 out, the absurdity, if we're going to invite people in, let's say we had decided that we didn't have

00:49:26.860 enough people to do labor and that it was actually good for the US to bring in large numbers of people

00:49:31.580 from elsewhere. Having people go through the theater of marching through Darien is absurd

00:49:42.060 and dangerous, and it is creating a humanitarian crisis. In addition to the environmental crisis,

00:49:48.700 which is in Darien, we're creating a humanitarian crisis that's absolutely needless. Either these

00:49:54.220 people should be welcomed because it's good for us to bring them in, or they shouldn't be there at all.

00:50:00.060 And the only purpose I can think, especially given that the Chinese, many of the Chinese, 1.00

00:50:05.020 I don't want to say all, there are Chinese people in the other camps. We saw that as well. Also not

00:50:10.540 forthcoming about anything. But the only purpose I can think of for coming to America via Panama

00:50:22.140 is that it allows them to blend with all of the people who are coming from South America. It makes

00:50:30.860 it hard to discuss, but I can't think of another reason to do it that way. It's, at the very least,

00:50:36.460 wildly inefficient.

00:50:45.180 Did you run into any journalists from big newspapers or TV channels when you were down there?

00:50:51.020 Absolutely not, which is also shocking. I mean, this is emblematic of the era we are living in,

00:50:59.660 where the issues which obviously have our well-being tied up in them are hiding in plain sight.

00:51:09.900 It's not hard to see this story. All you need to know is where to go. You can go look at it. And the

00:51:17.660 fact that that's not happening, that our major news organizations are disinterested in this story,

00:51:25.740 again, suggests a system that has been corrupted across the board. You would imagine that even if

00:51:33.180 the New York Times didn't want to report this story, that some reporter with ambition would chase

00:51:39.260 it down anyway. But so universal is the complicity here that nobody reports it. And if they do report

00:51:46.940 it, they report it wrong. They report it so that it leads you to have a confused sense or a sense that

00:51:53.100 this is more minor than it is. But we're talking literally about millions of people. And millions of

00:51:59.020 people is not a minor issue in a country with 300 million. This is a major demographic shift,

00:52:06.300 one way or the other. Yeah, and a permanent one. What did you hear about the cartels when you were

00:52:13.580 down there? We hear a lot about them in this country, but in pretty nonspecific terms. We heard that they

00:52:20.860 were present. And I don't think that's a new phenomenon. We also heard... So there's a lot of

00:52:29.020 what we would call coyotes at our southern border are called snakeheads. There's a lot of this going

00:52:37.740 on in Darien. People are paying to have somebody shepherd them through, and that often does not go well.

00:52:47.500 So they're present. The cartels appear to be making a great deal of money from this. They're probably

00:52:56.220 not happy to have it discussed. I don't know what that implies. But also I would point out the farther

00:53:07.340 north, this migration obviously has a relationship with the cartels. The cartels are largely about American

00:53:15.500 demand for illicit substances. And a massive uncontrolled wave of migrants is an obvious 1.00

00:53:25.660 mechanism whereby fentanyl and other things are entering the U.S. in an unmonitored way. I mean,

00:53:32.780 in fact, to the extent that they come in with migrants, we are apparently facilitating their

00:53:39.580 transport into the interior. We're spreading them around. And so what I can say is the cartels are

00:53:48.060 not directly visible to a visitor, but their influence is felt and discussed.

00:53:57.420 You're describing a lot of different crimes happening simultaneously.

00:54:01.980 Yep.

00:54:05.900 What's the solution?

00:54:08.460 Well, I mean, and strangely it goes back to the idea of giving ourselves permission

00:54:13.820 to entertain all kinds of possibilities, even things that are crazy and we have to ultimately

00:54:18.540 reject. But we have to not talk ourselves out of noticing what is taking place.

00:54:26.140 That's a scientific principle, is it not?

00:54:28.300 Well, you know, it's funny. Scientists are losing their way as well. And I think

00:54:33.260 how science is actually done is being forgotten. And I think we are actually literally in a cryptic

00:54:42.220 dark age. Now, every dark age has a small number of people, I call them keepers of the flame, who do

00:54:49.900 remember how to do science and keep that knowledge alive in one way or another. But it's time

00:54:56.380 it's time to dust it off and bring it out into the mainstream. And, you know, the toolkit for

00:55:02.460 figuring out what a story like this means is not different from the toolkit you use to figure out

00:55:08.940 what's going on in a tropical forest. It's hypothesis testing. And what you don't want, you know,

00:55:15.100 people have heard from me now, they've heard some things they may be shocked by them.

00:55:19.580 You don't know. This is one person's view of what they saw. What you really want is many

00:55:24.380 people to have seen it. And then you want them to pool their understanding, to point out what doesn't

00:55:30.060 make sense about one story, one explanation or another. That's the process. And the fewer of us

00:55:37.020 who are on the case, the worse we're going to do. And that we should just expect that. So

00:55:44.460 the first answer is just wake up. Something is afoot that none of us have seen before.

00:55:50.140 Even to the extent that there are echoes of historical processes here, much of this is

00:55:58.060 is quite new. I mean, for one thing, a mass migration through a dense jungle where people

00:56:05.100 have been informed about how to transit it, you know, by cell phone, where money can be wired by

00:56:12.700 Western Union to buy yourself a bus ticket after you've been robbed by bandits and in the forest.

00:56:19.500 Right. This is this is this is some weird combination of very low tech and very high tech.

00:56:25.580 What percentage of the migrants have smartphones?

00:56:27.580 Well, I don't know. But I my guess is a lot much larger percentage have them at the beginning of their

00:56:34.060 trek than have them at the end. In part, that's because of rampant theft. Yeah, I talked to a

00:56:42.940 a woman. Her name was Jen. She's Venezuelan. She was a college student in Venezuela and is fleeing the

00:56:50.220 collapse of her society. She was robbed of everything she had in Darien. I'm almost certain

00:56:57.580 she was raped. I didn't ask her, but I told her that I thought her journey had been more perilous 0.73

00:57:06.140 than she shared. And she confirmed that. And I think we both knew what I was talking about.

00:57:12.300 But in any case, she lost her phone to bandits. But the other thing that happens is

00:57:18.940 the exhaustion that people who are unprepared for the Darien Gap experience in struggling up these just

00:57:30.300 mud doesn't even describe it. The clay in these soils is such that you just imagine incredibly slippery

00:57:37.020 faces, you know, that are being drenched in rain on a daily basis.

00:57:41.500 People are so exhausted that they rid themselves of the possessions that they thought they would somehow

00:57:52.140 bring through. You know, they they lose their shoes, they drop all of their possessions and they

00:57:59.820 walk out with nothing. So in any case, I would say

00:58:03.180 they probably most of them have phones when they when they embark. And I have no idea what the

00:58:09.740 percentage that actually what is it doing to the environment to the landscape?

00:58:13.900 It's a catastrophe. I mean, it's certainly going to be limited at this point to the I think there

00:58:19.660 are three major routes through the Darien Gap at the moment, they are absolutely littered with

00:58:26.220 trash and bodies. And it's apparently quite hellish. In fact, Jen told me that on her trek,

00:58:39.580 she spoke pretty good English, she said that she didn't see a single animal. I'm sure she meant

00:58:45.260 mammal. But the idea of walking across Darien and not seeing a single mammal suggests that this is just

00:58:55.740 absolutely devastating. Now, it's nothing compared to what will happen if a road gets put through.

00:59:02.620 Roads have a very well understood impact on a forest like this. Once you have roads, you're going

00:59:08.540 to have hunters and they're going to empty the forest. You're going to have empty forest syndrome.

00:59:12.620 After that, you're going to have loggers. They're going to be pulling out all of these priceless

00:59:16.780 tropical hardwoods. You're going to get miners who are going to illegally go in there and mine and

00:59:22.700 leave big tailing piles and toxins. It's a devastating impact. At the moment, my guess would be that

00:59:34.220 the forest is rescuable, but the process has to stop. If it continues to go

00:59:39.340 down this road, it will be unsavable.

00:59:41.900 Has the government of Panama said anything about this? I mean, it's their territory.

00:59:48.220 Mostly they don't say anything. And what we were told was that this was

00:59:54.780 kind of the deal, that if they ushered people through, they facilitated their movement, then

01:00:01.420 those people would keep going. And this is a temporary cost for Panama.

01:00:05.580 I think if the people of Panama thought that the migration was going to stop and they were going

01:00:12.380 to have to absorb all of these migrants, there would be riots in the streets. That's my guess. 1.00

01:00:20.700 Panama's for other reasons and rather a perilous situation because after the handover, the

01:00:31.100 Americans upgraded the canal. And they did so according to plans that Americans had drawn up,

01:00:37.340 they put in a third lane for boat traffic. So every time a boat transits the canal, a huge amount of

01:00:47.340 water is lost in the process of lifting and lowering boats. When the Americans drew up the plans for

01:00:56.380 a third lane, which the Americans did not complete, the Panamanians now have, it involved the damming of 0.61

01:01:03.020 a second river to provide more water. So that never happened. Panama is now in a drought and the drought

01:01:12.700 combined with the massive extra losses of water is resulting in the Panama Canal having greatly reduced

01:01:22.060 traffic, which is a huge hit to the Panamanian economy because each of the ships that transits

01:01:27.260 the canal hands over a huge pile of cash to be allowed to do it. And this is a major piece of

01:01:34.620 the Panamanian economy. We're at the beginning of the dry season. I don't know what's going to happen

01:01:39.100 by the end of the dry season, but it may go from a greatly reduced number of transits per day to,

01:01:46.060 I don't know, could it go to none? Maybe, which would be a big hit to the world economy actually.

01:01:51.100 This is why the Nicaraguans are considering completing that canal, right?

01:01:54.380 The Nicaraguans, that has been long under discussion for-

01:01:57.580 Oh, 150 years.

01:01:58.780 Yeah, right. So I don't know if the Nicaraguans are going to. At the moment, the Panamanians are using

01:02:04.940 the train that parallels the canal and basically lots of ships are offloading their cargo onto a train and

01:02:11.020 it's going overland to a ship on the other side. So in any case, Panama has a stability problem of its own

01:02:20.460 and that combined with the hazard posed by this migration. And if America closes the door on this 0.52

01:02:34.140 migration, where do these people go? 0.99

01:02:36.060 So last question, if you were to, I know that you will continue your journey of inquiry in this topic,

01:02:44.620 but who, where else would you go to get answers to what exactly is happening?

01:02:50.780 Well, if I, if I was, uh, if I was initiating an effort to figure out that question, I would

01:03:00.620 bring the people who have navigated the story this far together with, uh, whatever experts still exist

01:03:11.180 on the various related topics. I mean, frankly, I would talk to Michael Yon about all of the things

01:03:16.700 that are connected to this story, all the things he's seen all over the world. He has a very good

01:03:21.980 sense for who the players are and what he knows has to be brought together with an understanding of, um,

01:03:33.980 how these dynamics might play out. But I have to say, I'm not sure, I don't know how much time

01:03:41.260 we have. Again, I don't know if what I saw implies a, uh, another shoe is going to drop. How many of these

01:03:54.940 Chinese sleepwalkers have to end up in the U.S. before some other phase kicks off? Um, what was the 1.00

01:04:04.460 involvement of COVID? Is it just happenstance? Or is there something about the COVID crisis that is in

01:04:11.100 some way connected to what we are now? What do you mean? This is a place we have to be extremely

01:04:18.460 careful. I, I'm just looking at the various puzzle pieces and trying to imagine what they could mean.

01:04:25.020 We know that SARS-CoV-2 was the product of dual use research, which was bioweapons. The spike protein 0.67

01:04:37.180 in the so-called vaccines was taken from SARS-CoV-2. So it is also the product of bioweapons research.

01:04:47.180 Now, again, I will say it again because I'm concerned that people will take it as a conclusion

01:04:52.380 rather than a hypothesis. This is only a hypothesis. And when I say it's a hypothesis,

01:04:56.620 it doesn't mean that I believe it's true. It means that I believe it's plausible.

01:05:00.140 So the, the vaccines that people got, you may remember, I think we talked about it the last time

01:05:10.140 I was here. Um, people who get more than three of these shots have an interesting effect that, uh,

01:05:19.180 none of us saw coming, which is the triggering of something called IgG4. Ig means immunoglobulin.

01:05:26.620 It's a synonym for antibody. IgG is a class of immunoglobulin and IgG4 is a very interesting

01:05:33.660 subclass. IgG4's purpose, its biological purpose is to turn down an immune response. So, um, if your

01:05:44.460 body is reacting to something it shouldn't react to, the nature has granted us a mechanism for turning

01:05:51.100 down that reaction so that you don't die from, from an allergy effectively. This is what allergens

01:05:57.100 do is they try to trigger that attenuation signal in order to get the body to stop reacting to something

01:06:02.220 that it shouldn't be reacting to. The fact that these shots seem to trigger the production of IgG4

01:06:08.940 IgG4 is fascinating. It could just be, uh, an unexpected consequence that nobody saw coming.

01:06:19.500 But if you think about what it is that the folks who try to produce biological weapons want, they want a

01:06:27.500 weapon that, um, separates populations. In other words, a weapon is no good. If it's not contagious,

01:06:39.180 then you have to drop it on enough people to matter. That's difficult. If it is contagious, then your own

01:06:45.500 population risks getting it. So the problem is there's not a good design mechanism to deal with that. But if

01:06:56.460 the mRNA vaccines produced an attenuation signal in people who got more than three of these shots,

01:07:05.580 then conceivably that attenuation signal could cause that population of people to be induced not to

01:07:14.460 react to a pathogen. If you just added the spike protein to it, presumably it would trigger that signal.

01:07:22.220 So here's why I'm mentioning all of this arcane biology. The Chinese did not vaccinate their population 0.99

01:07:33.260 with mRNA technology or anything based on spike protein. So those two populations are now different in

01:07:40.860 this regard. Which, again, might mean nothing. But what we learned so painfully in the battle

01:07:56.700 against the mainstream narrative over these so-called vaccines is that

01:08:01.980 the reason that I say so-called vaccines and I try to say it every time is because what these things

01:08:11.420 turned out to be is gene therapy. But that doesn't even quite cover the problem with them.

01:08:17.900 They're gene therapy in the sense that they introduce a genetic message into your cells and they get your

01:08:22.380 cells to translate it. But there's also a part of our bodies that absorbs messages in a whole different

01:08:31.660 way. It's our immune system. Our immune system literally evolves on the scale of hours to days

01:08:38.940 when you get an illness. That's how we fend off illnesses that evolve so rapidly. And so

01:08:45.420 the message that was injected into so many people was like a firmware update. It was a firmware update

01:08:55.100 that caused the immune systems of those people to take up a new way of viewing the world. And that new

01:09:02.780 way of viewing the world seems to have produced this attenuation signal in response to the antigen,

01:09:11.340 the spike protein antigen. So am I seeing a mirage? Let's hope so.

01:09:19.740 So just to try to flesh out or put in non-specialist terms what you may be suggesting,

01:09:28.300 it's plausible that this was all an effort to make one population effectively immune from some new

01:09:35.260 bioweapon and another population susceptible to it? Is that what you're saying?

01:09:38.780 Uh, that is what I'm saying. And again, all it is, is possible. Right. I have no evidence that this

01:09:46.860 did happen except for the odd fact of this IgG4. Well, why didn't the Chinese use mRNA vaccines? 0.98

01:09:55.180 I don't know. Uh, it is, let's put it this way. Nobody should have. Of course. It was a technology that

01:10:02.060 was just simply not fit for human consumption. But, um, one does not know. And further, we got a lot

01:10:11.340 of nonsense out of China that caused people, including me, to be more frightened of SARS-CoV-2

01:10:19.260 than was warranted.

01:10:21.340 Well, me too.

01:10:22.140 You remember the videos of people collapsing dead in the street, right? That was nonsense. So

01:10:30.220 I don't know who's who on this playing field, and I don't know what they want. But to the extent that

01:10:35.980 there seemed to be an absolute obsession with injecting absolutely everybody with these so-called

01:10:44.380 vaccines, that was conspicuous. That did not seem like, uh, just greed and a desire to sell more shots.

01:10:52.060 I agree completely. It was bizarre. And the fact that we specifically, um,

01:10:58.940 insisted on vaccinating the entire military and threw people out who wouldn't

01:11:03.660 take it. We vaccinated all of our frontline workers. I mean, I mean, and at the time,

01:11:10.300 I remember I said to Heather on our show, I said, even if these are wonderful shots,

01:11:18.300 it seems insane, given that we don't know what their long-term impacts are, that we would vaccinate

01:11:22.940 all of anybody with them. How about half?

01:11:25.260 Especially the people we need.

01:11:27.180 The people we need most. Right. Exactly. That's, that's, that's hopefully just a mirage,

01:11:32.460 but it is a very frightening one. And I certainly hope that that's not what's going on. But if it is,

01:11:39.420 there is no time to waste in us figuring out what we have been induced to do and what the proper

01:11:45.820 countermeasures are. And so to the extent that people think that this is an abstraction, it is

01:11:51.020 not. If there is any possibility at all that that is the nature of what we went through, then it is

01:11:59.340 essential that we figure out how to neutralize the vulnerability. So I've kept you too long. So,

01:12:08.060 but just, this is my last question. Do you think it's odd, given the price this country paid for

01:12:14.540 something that China did, that in the official storyline from the White House, for example,

01:12:19.900 the Chinese are never the villain. It's always the Americans. It's always some segment of our

01:12:23.180 population. People who didn't take the vacs are the villains. I mean, the president just gave a speech

01:12:27.180 saying that the other day. Why has no one in authority in America said a bad word about China

01:12:33.180 since we discovered that they unleashed COVID on the world? That's pretty weird, isn't it?

01:12:37.180 It is weird. I have to say I'm stuck on this one because the more one knows about what role we did play,

01:12:47.580 the more that this is not a simple story of one country having screwed up and unleashed hell on 0.95

01:12:58.540 the world. This was a collaborative effort. Now, the question is whose team are those collaborators on?

01:13:04.300 Great question. I mean, I must say the whole thing I found shocking, but one of the most shocking

01:13:08.780 things I'd never heard a single other person mention, which is since when does the United States

01:13:12.620 collaborate with China on bioweapons research? You'd think they were adversaries, right? It's like 0.79

01:13:17.660 not just a uniparty, but a uni-world or something. Yes. Well, again, I think this is the place where

01:13:25.900 we have to allow ourselves to think these thoughts and then somebody should talk us off the ledge and

01:13:33.020 we should find out it's not nearly as bad as we fear. But we have to consider these things and reject

01:13:39.420 them rather than not think them. I don't know. I know some open-minded people and I know some

01:13:45.500 rigorously rational people. I know very few who combine those qualities as well as you do. And I

01:13:50.460 just have such a pleasure to hear you talk. So, but thank you. Thank you so much, Tucker.

The Megyn Kelly Show - February 07, 2024

Bonus： Bret Weinstein on The Tucker Carlson Podcast

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