The Megyn Kelly Show - Bonus Episode ｜ Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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00:00:30.000 Hey, everyone. It's Megan Kelly. Today, I have something a little different for you.

00:00:34.600 I want to tell you about another podcast, Crime Stories, hosted by my friend, the brilliant Nancy Grace.

00:00:42.200 Nancy Grace had a perfect conviction record during her decade as a prosecutor and used her TV show to find missing people, fugitives on the run, and unseen clues. 0.81

00:00:52.580 She has devoted her life to helping catch and put bad guys behind bars.

00:00:58.880 She's on the side of the victims and is unabashed about it. 0.64

00:01:03.740 I love her.

00:01:04.840 Now, she uses her hit podcast to do the same. 0.88

00:01:08.540 Enjoy an episode of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace here in this podcast feed and subscribe to her show if you want more.

00:01:17.160 Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

00:01:19.180 This isn't right.

00:01:25.040 The family of little Jocelyn, just 12 years old, erupts in open court.

00:01:31.420 When they are sitting there hearing the facts laid out in court that this little Texas girl, their Jocelyn, is lured under a bridge, stripped, bound with her hands behind her back, sex assaulted, and strangled.

00:01:50.300 I guess they did erupt.

00:01:53.660 This, as the prosecutor says, I don't know if we can seek the death penalty.

00:01:58.740 You can.

00:02:00.420 Good evening.

00:02:01.460 I'm Nancy Grace.

00:02:02.420 This is Crime Stories.

00:02:03.840 Thank you for being with us.

00:02:05.940 Slain 12-year-old girl Jocelyn Nungare's family lashing out in court as the two men accused of killing their daughter are arraigned. 1.00

00:02:16.220 I hope they kill your children. 0.92

00:02:18.580 I can't imagine the pain, the anger, the hurt that this family is feeling as we learn the defendants may not even be exposed to the death penalty. 1.00

00:02:31.620 There's not a chance of the death penalty.

00:02:33.840 What is the family supposed to think?

00:02:36.280 They erupt in open court as they find out the horrific details surrounding the death of their girl, 12-year-old Jocelyn.

00:02:47.480 Listen.

00:02:47.780 This victim was found, you know, bound and without clothing from the waist down in the water.

00:02:57.760 And we just think that there's a good possibility.

00:03:02.120 We hope that there's evidence that remains to be tested.

00:03:05.920 I'm still fighting for her.

00:03:07.340 And I just remember that she was a very special little girl that deserves her justice.

00:03:15.960 And I know she's going to make a difference in this world for all children.

00:03:23.140 And now it's my job to make sure it continues to happen.

00:03:26.980 Why is it on the mom?

00:03:29.100 Why is it her job to make sure that there is justice? 1.00

00:03:32.800 Listen, I got to go to this panel with me, an all-star panel.

00:03:36.260 But first to Corey Peel, investigative reporter, KPRC2 in Houston.

00:03:42.840 Corey, did I just hear the prosecutor, whom I've always respected up until a few moments ago, state,

00:03:49.300 she was found, pause, unclothed, pause, unclothed, talk about putting perfume on the pig, airbrushing, whitewashing, unclothed. 1.00

00:04:03.060 I could be in a changing room in Nordstrom's and be unclothed.

00:04:09.220 This girl had 12, 12, had her hands bound behind her. 1.00

00:04:17.040 She was forced under a bridge by two guys, she doesn't know, adults.

00:04:23.820 And she was stripped.

00:04:26.060 She was stripped from the waist down.

00:04:29.640 Her pants were off. 0.93

00:04:31.420 I mean, to hear Augs say it, unclothed?

00:04:35.740 What?

00:04:36.240 Yeah, these details were absolutely heartbreaking hearing in court.

00:04:40.500 And, you know, at this point, they were still kind of skirting around the information on if she was sexually assaulted or not.

00:04:47.840 They're saying that they're still waiting on test results to come back to prove that she was, in fact, sexually assaulted.

00:04:54.480 But those details, absolutely heartbreaking to hear in court, especially for Jocelyn's family.

00:05:02.440 And as you can imagine, emotions were high.

00:05:05.440 Yesterday, we heard a family member scream out at one of the suspects, calling him a murderer and killer,

00:05:11.720 as they were just in disbelief over this tragic and horrific crime could happen to their little girl.

00:05:18.860 You're hearing Corey Peel, investigative reporter, KPRC2 in Houston.

00:05:23.640 I want to go to Andy Kahn, longtime friend and colleague, director of victim services, crime stoppers in Houston.

00:05:32.440 What in the world is going on?

00:05:35.240 Hey, New York, let me see the graphic of how you can get the death penalty in Texas,

00:05:41.700 because I'm pretty sure if you commit an intentional murder, which strangulation death is,

00:05:48.500 this is a manual strangulation by hands,

00:05:51.140 while, and then they name a host of felonies, including kidnapping, kidnapping.

00:05:57.580 Kidnapping does not mean I bundle you in a trunk and I drive you 100 miles and hold you hostage.

00:06:04.620 Kidnapping can mean taking you one foot or one inch.

00:06:09.220 It's called, under the law, asportation.

00:06:12.740 If that child is moved even one inch under the law against her will,

00:06:19.400 that is a kidnap and therefore qualifies for a death penalty.

00:06:25.820 Andy Kahn, what is going on in your hometown?

00:06:31.840 You have a lot of convoluted laws that were passed years ago involving capital murder of anyone who murders a child.

00:06:40.560 And in 2019, they passed a law, our legislators passed a law,

00:06:46.460 removing the death penalty provision from anyone who murdered a child from the ages of 11 to 15,

00:06:53.580 unless it was done in conjunction of another offense.

00:06:57.900 I don't think there's, you know, any if, ands or buts about it.

00:07:01.520 She was taken against her will, more than likely sexually assaulted.

00:07:05.720 But let's keep in mind, this is early.

00:07:08.280 I would, it's going to happen.

00:07:10.760 Andy, I know that your politicians and the Texas legislature have gutted the rules for aggravating circumstances for the death penalty.

00:07:21.600 In many other jurisdictions, when a child under 14, 14 and under is murdered,

00:07:28.500 that automatically qualifies for a jury to look at the death penalty, whether they give it or not.

00:07:34.620 That's on the jury.

00:07:36.420 But forget about the age requirement.

00:07:39.280 Your legislature, your Texas legislature, changed the rule when now the child has to be under 10 for it to automatically apply.

00:07:49.360 That doesn't fit in this scenario because Jocelyn is 12. 0.97

00:07:55.200 However, listen to me.

00:07:58.260 There is another condition under your law that your legislature has managed not to get yet that says if the death occurs,

00:08:07.820 the murder occurs during a kidnap, that qualifies for the death penalty.

00:08:12.920 So what's the problem?

00:08:14.440 I don't get it.

00:08:15.260 I don't get it either.

00:08:16.120 My best guess is this is a slow-moving scenario.

00:08:21.960 They want to get first things done first, and then eventually they'll look at adding the death penalty. 1.00

00:08:27.440 You know, there's a reason we have the death penalty in the state of Texas.

00:08:30.980 We're quote known as the death penalty capital of the world.

00:08:34.500 And if these two defendants don't fit the criteria for the death penalty, you might as well just gut it all the way around.

00:08:40.440 Guys, we are hearing that the death penalty is not being sought.

00:08:46.200 And I'm not advocating pro or con right now.

00:08:49.660 I am saying that if this case does not qualify for the death penalty to be at least presented to a jury who will they make the decision, not the prosecutor,

00:09:01.420 but it's not going to even be given as an alternative to this jury because neither defendant has confessed to raping the girl.

00:09:12.060 What? What? I've got to wait for them to confess?

00:09:15.800 If I had to wait for every defendant, every killer, every rapist, every child molester to confess before they get sentenced, that's never going to happen.

00:09:28.420 The Fulton County Jail would still be full of the thousands of people I prosecuted because nobody is going to confess.

00:09:35.560 But this is what they did say.

00:09:38.300 You tell me what you think happened.

00:09:40.220 Listen, Johan Jose Ronyal Martinez and Franklin Jose Peña Ramos are both charged with capital murder.

00:09:46.240 Peña Ramos tells police he tried to convince Ronyal Martinez to stop the attack on Jocelyn, but he refused, telling Peña Ramos he had to finish what he started.

00:09:55.080 Nuguri's hands are tied behind her back.

00:09:57.000 Her feet are bound.

00:09:58.080 Ronyal Martinez climbs on top of Jocelyn, covers her mouth and strangles her to death.

00:10:03.120 Ronyal Martinez admits to tying Jocelyn up and tossing her body in the bayou, but claims he didn't kill her.

00:10:08.440 Peña Ramos claims he only kissed the 12-year-old and denies any wrongdoing.

00:10:12.780 Dr. Bethany Marshall, you know I'm a teetotaler, but this is driving me to the bottle.

00:10:19.260 Dr. Bethany Marshall with me.

00:10:20.740 Renowned psychoanalyst joining us out of Beverly Hills at drbethanymarshall.com.

00:10:25.940 Dr. Bethany, I've had so many defendants and co-defendants who will tell you the story about what happened, their version, but they leave out the critical moment.

00:10:39.940 For instance, Dr. Bethany and I were robbing a bank, and I said, don't kill anybody, Bethany.

00:10:47.900 And she went in, and we both had guns, and I turned my head for just a moment, and I heard a gunshot, but I didn't see anything.

00:10:56.880 And when I turned back around, two bank tellers were dead and bleeding out in the floor.

00:11:01.720 That one critical moment somehow gets fuzzy, and here we see both defendants, one claiming he, quote,

00:11:11.960 only kissed 12-year-old Jocelyn while her hands were tied behind her back and her pants and underwear were stripped off her body, 0.82

00:11:20.660 just before one of them crawled on top of the girl and strangled her, saying, quote,

00:11:27.620 He had to finish what he started, and all the other one did was kiss her.

00:11:33.740 Who in the H-E-L-L kisses a 12-year-old little girl tied up under a bridge with her pants and underwear stripped off? 0.79

00:11:44.860 Who's kissing her? 0.99

00:11:46.040 There's so many things wrong with this narrative, and also so many telltale signs that they are lying.

00:11:52.620 First of all, minimizing by saying, I kissed her.

00:11:56.940 Criminals always minimize.

00:11:59.040 And as you pointed out, being so vague about the details.

00:12:02.300 Sometimes they throw in too many details, but most likely in this case,

00:12:05.700 they're leaving out a lot of horrific details that are going to come out as this court case continues.

00:12:11.860 And also minimizing the fact that she is a 12-year-old little girl.

00:12:15.740 And also, the language is so inaccurate, Nancy.

00:12:20.580 Let's take out rape, assault, and kidnap, and let's put torture at the top of the list.

00:12:27.640 Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

00:12:36.960 Let me go to another friend and longtime colleague, Dr. Kendall Crowns, chief medical examiner.

00:12:47.540 That's not easy.

00:12:48.840 You fight your way to get in medical school.

00:12:51.020 You fight your way through medical school.

00:12:53.360 You do a residency.

00:12:54.700 It's dog-eat-dog.

00:12:55.780 Everybody wants your spot.

00:12:57.260 And he somehow climbs his way to the top to become the chief medical examiner in Tarrant County.

00:13:03.480 That's Fort Worth.

00:13:04.580 That's this neck of the woods.

00:13:05.960 Also, lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU.

00:13:11.460 Dr. Kendall Crowns, I've prosecuted literally thousands of cases.

00:13:17.560 Thousands.

00:13:18.300 All felonies.

00:13:19.180 When you are prosecuting and you didn't experience this, you have to be a machine.

00:13:26.480 You cannot think about the details of the case.

00:13:31.660 Or I would crack if I had to think about it.

00:13:35.100 But as I'm listening to Dr. Bethany talk, I'm wondering if you go through this as you perform autopsies on little girls, little children, to think about what this girl, 12 years old.

00:13:49.260 You know, my girl, she's about that big, beautiful, just like this little girl, to be dragged under a bridge in the middle of the night.

00:14:00.780 Don't you know she was crying and begging for them to stop what they were doing, to yank her pants and underwear off, to tie her, bind her with her hands behind her back. 0.58

00:14:16.740 And one of them claims, I only kissed her.

00:14:20.140 What? 0.96

00:14:20.260 And with the marks on her back, this girl was raped. 1.00

00:14:29.180 This girl was tortured. 0.70

00:14:31.980 The last thing she saw was the dark of the night under a bridge where these two guys, she's adult males, she had never met before, assaulting her.

00:14:47.280 Then probably the inability to breathe as one of them crawled on top of her and manually strangled the life out of her.

00:14:59.500 Then leaving her semi-naked, throw her into the water.

00:15:08.380 And video cam catches them, Dr. Kendall Crowns, just walking away like nothing had happened.

00:15:17.280 When you perform an autopsy, do you let yourself even think about these things or do you just become a robot and do it?

00:15:29.560 So you can't get emotionally charged when doing your work because that's going to cause you to miss things.

00:15:35.900 So you go through the story, the information you have at the time before the autopsy begins, and then you process the case and go through it and you don't get emotionally wrapped up in all the particulars of how horrific the incident that resulted in this individual's death is.

00:15:54.560 Because if you do, you can't do this job.

00:15:56.380 Lured under a bridge, stripped naked to the waist, bound and then assaulted for two hours.

00:16:03.540 New court documents detail horrific allegations.

00:16:07.080 Not only do we learn what happened under that bridge to little Jocelyn, we learn what happened afterward.

00:16:15.620 Listen.

00:16:15.880 Just two days after Jocelyn Nungri's body is found, police say Ramos cut off an ankle monitor he was fitted with when he crossed the border illegally at El Paso on May 28th.

00:16:25.400 The discarded ankle monitor was found days ago.

00:16:27.980 Ramos, working in construction, asks his boss for extra cash so he can skip town.

00:16:32.820 But instead of getting cash, the boss calls the police and Ramos is arrested.

00:16:36.940 Straight out to Coralie Peel, investigative reporter, KPRC2, Houston.

00:16:41.940 I hope what Og is saying, I'm just interpreting here, is that when the rape kit comes back, I'm going to go to you, Dr. Kendall Crowns, about how a rape kit is performed and really how long it takes.

00:16:57.420 It doesn't take this long to get a DNA sample.

00:17:01.800 It doesn't.

00:17:02.540 So, I'm not sure what they're waiting on, because if there's DNA from one of the defendants to show that she was raped, she finds sperm from one defendant, they're both going to be charged with rape.

00:17:15.060 Because while one was raping her, the other one was standing by, what, laughing, holding her down? 0.94

00:17:21.000 Oh, H-E-L-L-N-O. 1.00

00:17:24.280 They're both going to be charged with that and both be death penalty qualified.

00:17:29.280 Um, Coralie Peel, again, investigative news reporter, KPRC2, Houston, where this happened.

00:17:36.480 Let me understand how these two were caught.

00:17:38.900 I understand we've got surveillance video and the police did an incredible job of putting together a montage of, uh, the, let's see the 7-11.

00:17:49.100 The 7-11 video, surveillance video.

00:17:51.920 Uh, you can see as the surveillance video goes on, you see her walking, the little boyfriend, she's calling on her cell phone, reports hearing two adults in the back.

00:18:02.680 Look at that little thing.

00:18:03.580 She can't weigh over 90 pounds, if that. 0.96

00:18:06.620 These two, there are the animals.

00:18:11.040 There they are.

00:18:12.000 And I normally don't use that phrase, but what they did to this little girl is like an animal out in the jungle.

00:18:20.320 And they approach her.

00:18:22.420 They approach her, apparently asking for directions.

00:18:27.080 She walks along with them because they apparently lived near each other, did not know each other. 0.84

00:18:33.460 They're walking along, and the next thing you know, she's under a bridge, bound, being raped. 0.58

00:18:42.860 So, Coralie Peel, how did they get caught?

00:18:46.000 The incredible surveillance montage that reveals everything I just told you.

00:18:51.320 You see them taking her under a bridge and then walking away like, okay, that's done.

00:18:56.980 But then, in addition to the montage, witnesses emerge.

00:19:00.520 That's right.

00:19:01.200 I mean, those photos were essential in this case.

00:19:05.560 As soon as the men saw their photos being plastered across the country, all over social media and all the news, they got scared.

00:19:15.700 So, one of the men, Martinez there, he actually shaved his beard.

00:19:19.700 And he, apparently, prosecutors found on his phone that he was trying to research ways on how to leave the country, how to get out.

00:19:31.640 But it's really interesting because Franklin Pena, he actually called his boss asking for help, asking to gather some money together so he could get away.

00:19:40.240 He told his boss that someone was killed.

00:19:43.200 He was in an issue that he needed to get out of.

00:19:46.260 The boss thought that was very suspicious.

00:19:48.760 Okay, hold on.

00:19:50.240 Coralie Peel, again, you got me drinking from the fire hydrant.

00:19:55.720 You know so many facts.

00:19:57.900 And I'm trying to write as quickly as I can.

00:19:59.940 Could you back it up just a little bit?

00:20:01.840 And I'll catch up.

00:20:02.620 I wish I knew shorthand.

00:20:04.420 I don't.

00:20:05.380 Okay, go.

00:20:05.920 Yeah.

00:20:06.320 So, basically, long story short, he calls 911, or the boss that the construction company calls police.

00:20:15.120 And that's how police were ultimately able to track down both men at their apartment complex and take them into custody.

00:20:22.220 And I talked to prosecutors at that press conference.

00:20:24.840 And I said, you know, was this boss the reason why they were captured?

00:20:29.040 And they said, that is one of the reasons why, just because they have received hundreds of tips over that course of that week while they were on the run.

00:20:37.120 But, again, they got scared after these photos were released and people were looking for them.

00:20:42.840 And now, Coralie Peel from KPRC2 is telling us more.

00:20:48.180 That when these photos began to populate on TV, people were seeing them.

00:20:56.980 Their friends who knew them saw the TV.

00:21:01.040 And they asked the boss, these two defendants, asked their boss, one of them asked for an advance in money, said somebody had died, and they needed to get out of the jurisdiction.

00:21:17.220 You know, when I see a broadcast on TV, or somebody calls me and gives me a tip about a murder, I don't try to leave the country.

00:21:26.720 They did.

00:21:28.260 What about it?

00:21:29.080 Those are indicative of guilt, Nancy.

00:21:32.260 These guys knew what they were in trouble.

00:21:33.960 They knew people were going to see the advertisement, the warnings on TV, and they knew that they had to leave the country or leave the state as soon as possible. 0.77

00:21:43.620 They're criminals. 0.99

00:21:44.780 They're animals. 1.00

00:21:45.220 That's what they do.

00:21:46.220 They run and they flee.

00:21:48.180 Jocelyn Nungere fought back, prosecutors say, leaving scratches and bite marks on one of her attackers, still visible at the time of his arrest.

00:21:57.960 Bite marks.

00:21:59.860 Let's talk about bite marks.

00:22:02.740 Joining me, Coralie Peel, investigative reporter, KPRC2, Houston.

00:22:10.060 Coralie, I want to talk about the injuries to not only the two defendants.

00:22:15.260 Do you know, when we first started talking, I almost got sick to my stomach as you were describing everything.

00:22:21.780 Because when I was talking to Dr. Kendall Crowns about letting your mind go to where this was that night and what the little girl lived through, what Jocelyn lived through just before her death while her mom is snoozing away.

00:22:38.100 No idea that anything's happening to her baby.

00:22:42.420 But I now want to talk about the evidence and get my mind back in the middle of the road and out of the weeds.

00:22:48.480 Tell me about the injuries on her and the two defendants.

00:22:52.860 Yeah, heartbreaking information that we received in court this week, apparently from what we heard from prosecutors, that Jocelyn was found with cuts on her body and scratches as well as she was found bound and tied underneath that bridge.

00:23:10.180 And we also learned that Martinez-Rangel, he was also found with bite marks and scratches on him when he was arrested.

00:23:20.260 So very heart-wrenching information to hear from prosecutors as they release that evidence and especially hard for her family to hear because she's only 12 years old.

00:23:31.020 No family should have to hear that a little girl had to endure that type of horrific murder.

00:23:36.820 I don't want us to gloss over the truth.

00:23:39.100 And here's the truth.

00:23:41.360 Two illegal Venezuelan migrants are now accused of murdering a 12-year-old little Houston girl.

00:23:46.860 Andy Kahn, listen up.

00:23:48.140 You're next.

00:23:49.200 Under a bridge, according to prosecutors, they strip her naked.

00:23:54.540 That's from the waist down.

00:23:57.340 Assaulted her for two hours.

00:24:01.620 Two hours.

00:24:03.260 This 12-year-old girl was assaulted.

00:24:06.500 Assaulted.

00:24:07.020 What does that mean?

00:24:08.060 Raped.

00:24:08.420 That's what that means. 0.97

00:24:09.560 And one of them has the audacity to tell me, I just kissed her.

00:24:13.960 You kiss a 12-year-old little girl tied up under a bridge, half naked?

00:24:19.220 Assaulted her for two hours. 0.99

00:24:21.760 Allegedly binding her, not only by her hands, behind her back during the rape.

00:24:29.740 Her feet were also bound, as Dr. Bethany Marshall accurately pointed out, and her back was covered in cuts.

00:24:40.460 Nancy, this is a real-life Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

00:24:54.520 What happened to Jocelyn, the only way I can describe what happened to her, when you ask people, well, what happened exactly, is if you watch a National Geographic show and you see what lions do to gazelles.

00:25:06.660 And that's what these two lions do to this poor child right here. 0.78

00:25:11.120 It is an absolute bloodbath what happened to her. 0.89

00:25:14.940 I've spoken with Jocelyn's family.

00:25:17.060 I've met them.

00:25:18.640 I've talked with them.

00:25:20.160 I can't imagine the pain that they're going through.

00:25:23.000 Yet at the same time, we're also going to make Jocelyn Nungary a catalyst for change.

00:25:29.380 I know there's a lot going on right now, whether they're going to be seeking the death penalty or not.

00:25:34.300 Indy Khan, too soon.

00:25:36.360 Too soon to talk about how this is all somehow going to end up being good, and her rape and murder is going to be a catalyst for change. 0.98

00:25:47.080 You know, I don't normally say this to you, Indy Khan, but screw that. 1.00

00:25:51.120 I don't want to hear how somehow we're going to turn this lemon into lemonade.

00:25:56.600 Catalyst for change?

00:25:58.080 B.S., Khan.

00:26:01.040 What are you saying?

00:26:02.400 And I asked you what these injuries meant, and you skirted it.

00:26:07.020 You did not answer the question.

00:26:09.460 The question was, what do these injuries on her back mean?

00:26:13.840 Do I have to spell it out for you?

00:26:15.520 It means that she was tortured.

00:26:18.100 She was tortured. 0.99

00:26:19.560 She was raped. 0.98

00:26:20.840 She was strangled. 0.99

00:26:22.060 She was kidnapped.

00:26:22.940 And by God, the death penalty is going to be sought in this case.

00:26:28.540 That is no ifs, ands, or buts from my perspective.

00:26:31.080 Dr. Bethany Marshall, you, as I, have worked with so many children and adults that were raped or sodomized as children.

00:26:41.480 And what the adults tell me is that the worst thing about it was the feeling of helplessness, powerlessness.

00:26:52.260 How some of them actually, I didn't know about this phenomenon until an adult female victim of child molestation told me about it.

00:27:03.120 That she would actually disembody, and she could look down at her body as her father was raping her. 0.96

00:27:10.800 And her mother sided with the father and pretended she didn't know anything about it. 0.94

00:27:15.980 It went on for years.

00:27:17.440 Okay.

00:27:19.580 You have to go with me down this dark tunnel, because I'm going to tell you what happened. 0.59

00:27:27.420 This little girl, while bound with her hands behind her and stripped, was forced down on the ground and was raped for two hours. 0.84

00:27:41.540 Then, one of the defendants climbed on top of her and manually strangled her, and then they throw her body, likely face down, into a bayou.

00:27:54.740 That's what happened to this girl. 1.00

00:27:57.320 She should be practicing her cello, or what instrument she was playing.

00:28:01.760 She should be enjoying summer, jumping in the apartment complex pool, playing with her friends, going to get ice cream, talking to her little BF boyfriend on the phone.

00:28:13.780 But that's what happened to her. 0.97

00:28:16.040 That is what those injuries tell me.

00:28:19.760 And there's no way around it.

00:28:22.820 I don't care how much everybody on this panel wants to skirt away from it.

00:28:27.100 That is what happened. 0.72

00:28:28.240 She was raped in the dirt, on the ground, under a bridge by two adult males, while her hands were tied behind her back. 0.77

00:28:37.640 That's what happened.

00:28:38.420 And Nancy, if I could add to that, there was a moment before all this happened, when these guys asked her for directions, where she felt useful.

00:28:46.440 She wanted to help them.

00:28:48.220 And then for anyone who's listening, who's ever been in an accident, and all of a sudden, you know things have turned.

00:28:54.320 There was that dawning of realization when they take her under the bridge that something really, really bad is going to happen.

00:29:02.360 They bind her hands and her legs. 1.00

00:29:05.640 And at that point, she may not even know what is about to befall her.

00:29:10.000 But on some level, she knows she's going to die.

00:29:13.120 They take their pants off.

00:29:14.900 We're talking about them taking her pants off. 1.00

00:29:17.880 Let's think about two grown men taking their clothing off in front of a little girl.

00:29:23.540 We don't even know if she's ever seen a naked man before.

00:29:26.780 And all those cuts along her back, they threw her on the ground. 0.97

00:29:30.940 This was under a bridge.

00:29:32.200 I picture, you know, empty aluminum cans and glass.

00:29:37.000 You know, all the debris we see under bridges, they threw her on that debris. 0.85

00:29:42.820 And as they were raping her and thrusting themselves into her again and again, her back was scraping along the ground. 0.89

00:29:51.400 They didn't rape her once, twice. 0.99

00:29:54.420 These men raped her multiple times, each one looking on as the other one did it. 0.99

00:30:00.720 That is animalistic behavior. 0.99

00:30:02.840 Nancy, do you think women would do that to a little boy? 1.00

00:30:05.660 No.

00:30:06.200 It's not just the rape.

00:30:08.020 It's the cruelty.

00:30:09.340 It's the total lack of regard for what was happening to her body.

00:30:13.320 And Nancy, these guys, I think, were drunk and substance abusing.

00:30:16.320 So this does not exonerate them, but it takes it a whole level worse where they are just treating her like a sack of potatoes.

00:30:24.680 And the control room is reminding me in my ear, these two illegal immigrants charged with the murder of a 12-year-old little girl

00:30:32.980 under the eyes of Lady Justice, are innocent until proven guilty.

00:30:45.480 Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

00:30:47.920 Two suspects.

00:30:49.180 One claims he only kissed Jocelyn and tried to stop the attack as his friend climbed on top of the little girl, strangling her.

00:30:58.520 Tried to stop the attack.

00:30:59.820 How?

00:31:01.360 It doesn't make any sense.

00:31:02.440 Why am I trying to apply logic to an illogical situation?

00:31:07.280 Why am I trying to make sense about what these two are saying?

00:31:10.080 Because it's all lies.

00:31:11.500 All lies.

00:31:13.180 DNA doesn't lie.

00:31:15.140 Circumstantial evidence doesn't lie.

00:31:17.760 This little girl did not bind herself at the hands and feet, scratch her back up on the ground,

00:31:24.140 take off her own pants and underwear, and fling herself into the water. 0.99

00:31:29.340 Okay?

00:31:29.660 They did it.

00:31:30.440 And anything they say is a lie.

00:31:33.780 It's like the devil.

00:31:36.220 Whatever he says, it's a lie.

00:31:39.740 It doesn't matter.

00:31:41.840 It's a lie.

00:31:43.100 They're lying.

00:31:44.080 Now, we know in the last hours, the family has been subjected to hearing the facts the way we've been talking about them.

00:31:54.260 No mother wants to hear this.

00:31:57.180 I don't even want to hear it about another child, much less this mom hearing it about her own child.

00:32:04.580 And there was an explosion in the courtroom.

00:32:09.040 Not the first time.

00:32:10.500 Listen.

00:32:11.000 Oldest sister of Errol Lindsay, whatever your name is, say, I'm mad.

00:32:16.420 This is how you act when you are out of control.

00:32:19.400 I don't want to ever see my mother have to go through this again.

00:32:24.020 Never, Jeffrey. 0.98

00:32:25.180 Jeffrey, I hate you. 1.00

00:32:27.780 I hate you. 1.00

00:32:29.540 That's the sound of control. 0.99

00:32:30.780 I only wish she had gotten her hands around his neck. 0.99

00:32:43.060 And, of course, we all know about our friend Mark Klass.

00:32:47.920 His daughter, Polly, was kidnapped during a little spend the night party at her place in the middle of the night.

00:32:55.460 And I don't even say the defendant's name out loud.

00:32:58.320 He took Polly. 0.99

00:32:59.800 He raped her. 1.00

00:33:01.200 He assaulted her. 1.00

00:33:02.260 And he murdered her.

00:33:03.500 And in court, Klass, there's Polly, Klass lunges for the killer and tries to strangle him right there. 1.00

00:33:16.480 And another case, a martial arts expert molested a little boy.

00:33:20.880 And when he was extradited back to Louisiana and he came off the plane, the dad shot him in the head, later acquitted.

00:33:29.240 But why are people suggesting that the family of Jocelyn misbehaved in the courtroom?

00:33:38.680 They didn't misbehave.

00:33:40.360 The two defendants misbehaved, according to police, to IndyCon Director of Victim Services there in Houston.

00:33:48.160 Do you blame them?

00:33:49.620 No, absolutely not.

00:33:51.220 I mean, I've been in the courtrooms where families have gotten up and have yelled.

00:33:55.440 I've been in a courtroom where a bailiff whispered to me and said, I'll let the father of the young girl that was murdered, if he goes over the rail, I'll give him a few minutes before I pull him off.

00:34:06.660 No, nobody blames them for anything that happened.

00:34:10.500 I don't blame them for unleashing as well.

00:34:12.540 I would probably do the same.

00:34:14.080 This is the worst possible scenario you can imagine this family is undergoing right now.

00:34:20.220 Jocelyn is everybody's daughter.

00:34:23.200 She is everybody's sister.

00:34:24.940 She is everybody's niece.

00:34:26.840 This is not just a Houston issue.

00:34:28.680 It's not just a Texas issue. 0.96

00:34:30.060 She has become the national issue for what happens when you murder, rape, and strangle and kidnap a 12-year-old little girl. 0.90

00:34:38.240 You know, Andy, again, I consider you a friend.

00:34:40.640 We've worked together for many, many years.

00:34:42.420 But does your mouth ever get tired of just saying the same thing, blah, blah, blah?

00:34:47.520 She is the poster girl for fill in the blank.

00:34:51.460 She is the catalyst for change.

00:34:53.960 She represents every girl.

00:34:56.640 Really?

00:34:57.780 Then why do these people keep coming into our country and committing murders? 0.98

00:35:03.380 And not just them, other perps.

00:35:06.100 You see it over and over.

00:35:07.580 Repeat offenders, preying on victims younger, less cunning, less powerful than they are.

00:35:16.080 And they walk free and then they do it again.

00:35:20.160 A catalyst for change.

00:35:22.620 This is one in a string of many.

00:35:25.960 Do I have to name them off?

00:35:27.520 There's Laken Riley.

00:35:28.940 There's Molly Tibbetts.

00:35:30.500 There's Rachel Morin.

00:35:32.120 He goes on and on.

00:35:34.300 For Pete's sake, man.

00:35:35.620 One second verse, same as the first.

00:35:38.720 That's why I'm here to do that.

00:35:40.960 To make sure that what happened with her, at least we can make the attempt that it doesn't happen to somebody else.

00:35:48.060 That's the least we can do in her honor and in her memory.

00:35:52.040 And that's what we're going to do.

00:35:53.780 You know what, Andy Kahn?

00:35:54.560 You're right.

00:35:55.320 I'm sorry.

00:35:55.960 You just happen to be the target of my anger and frustration about what happened to this girl.

00:36:01.300 Dr. Kendall Crowns, how are we going to prove she was raped?

00:36:05.840 How does it happen?

00:36:07.400 And that medical examiner darn well being dotting his eyes and crossing his T's as he or she performs this rape kit. 0.99

00:36:17.360 So proving a sexual assault, you can look for damage to the vagina, the anus. 0.95

00:36:24.980 Usually it's tearing, contusions or bruises, abrasions or scratches from the forceful penetration.

00:36:31.520 And then you can also do a sexual assault kit, also known as a rape kit, where you collect evidence, pubic hairs from the individual, also any hairs that are on the body.

00:36:44.700 You do DNA swabs of the body as well as DNA swabs of the vagina, anus and mouth.

00:36:52.220 And then those can be tested for DNA of the possible perpetrator.

00:36:57.340 It can take several weeks for all that to come back, though.

00:37:01.060 Dr. Kendall Crowns, you and I both know that it doesn't take several weeks to get DNA.

00:37:06.960 Why are you saying that?

00:37:07.920 Well, it does take several weeks for the testing to get done.

00:37:11.160 You can't just expect it to happen overnight.

00:37:14.040 There's not an immediate DNA test because I've had them done at the crime lab.

00:37:17.980 I mean, rapid DNA tests are you...

00:37:20.120 There's a quick test result.

00:37:21.880 Well, you can get quick test results correct, but you can't necessarily pinpoint it to a specific individual without doing all the specific testing.

00:37:30.140 Well, okay, then your Texas crime lab must work differently than the one that I use because we can get quick test results.

00:37:37.860 I know they're not as reliable as the ones that take two weeks, but it's enough for a death penalty indictment.

00:37:45.240 And one more thing very quickly, Dr. Kendall Crowns, about the bite marks.

00:37:50.560 In her condition, tied up, hands and feet on her back, she managed to bite a defendant. 1.00

00:37:57.520 Is there a chance we could get his DNA out of her mouth?

00:38:00.740 Yes, that is a possibility.

00:38:03.000 If she bit hard enough and pulled skin cells off, it's possible that they could get it from her mouth. 1.00

00:38:08.380 Back to Corley Peel, KPRC2.

00:38:10.760 What is happening right now?

00:38:13.120 Well, right now, both men are in jail with $10 million bonds each.

00:38:18.600 This investigation is ongoing.

00:38:22.200 Prosecutors say that they're still waiting on test results to prove if Jocelyn Nungare was sexually assaulted.

00:38:28.880 So we're still waiting to see if those charges will be upgraded or if they will face the death penalty because of right now, based on the legislature, they're not death penalty eligible.

00:38:41.460 So still a lot more to uncover in this case, for sure.

00:38:45.240 Michael Levanis, so bottom line, they're kicking back, having three hots and a cot.

00:38:49.100 The investigators are at the mercy of the legal system.

00:38:51.700 They have to abide by what the district attorney guidance that they give them.

00:38:58.100 They honestly do probably want to file sexual assault, but they have to wait for the results.

00:39:03.000 They're at the mercy of the crime left.

00:39:05.080 Oh, OK.

00:39:05.960 So I guess she had her pants pulled off and had scratches on her back. 1.00

00:39:10.200 And one admits that he was kissing her.

00:39:13.040 I guess that's not enough for them yet.

00:39:14.840 But I'm telling you, you can't get any DNA response.

00:39:17.700 Well, you can say that, but I've tried plenty of cases with circumstantial evidence and without DNA before the advent of DNA.

00:39:26.720 And all that was a blood type.

00:39:28.340 OK, so it can be done.

00:39:30.600 It's going to be a circumstantial case because neither one wants to admit they minimized their actions.

00:39:34.780 OK, to hear Michael Levanis tell it, I've got to wait on a confession.

00:39:39.020 And that'll be a cold day in H-E-double-L before these two confess.

00:39:42.720 Andy Kahn, what am I just am I the one upside down here?

00:39:47.520 Before a Texas jury, I could probably step outside when they get the case, go to the restroom, come back, and they'll pronounce them guilty and sentence them to death.

00:39:57.020 There is no way a jury is not going to sentence these two to death.

00:39:59.860 If it is sought.

00:40:02.860 And you know what else breaks my heart, Andy Kahn?

00:40:05.660 That the mom, God be with her, keeps saying, thank you, everybody, for all your support.

00:40:13.420 I'm so grateful.

00:40:14.400 She shouldn't even be in this position.

00:40:17.400 And I heard Og, who's a pretty good prosecutor, state that the prosecutors and law enforcement are under so much pressure because there is just a wave, wave after wave after wave of criminals from other countries coming into our country. 0.99

00:40:37.000 And right there is one of the hubs where they come in.

00:40:42.340 So I've got to contend with not only our U.S., our American citizens performing depraved acts on children.

00:40:48.800 Now I've got them coming over to do it.

00:40:50.880 Actually, last year, last August, I worked with a family whose 11-year-old girl was raped and murdered by an undocumented immigrant who is now facing the death penalty.

00:41:03.020 That was last August.

00:41:04.720 So sadly, I've worked with families that are facing this situation.

00:41:08.740 And yeah, it's a broken system all to hell.

00:41:11.780 If you know or think you know anything about this case that could help the state build the case, dial 713-308-3600.

00:41:23.540 Repeat, 713-308-3600.

00:41:27.140 I want to thank all of our guests as our prayers go out to this little girl, Jocelyn, and her family, her mother, and her little brother.

00:41:40.000 We wait as justice unfolds.

00:41:44.660 Goodbye, friend.

The Megyn Kelly Show - July 10, 2024

Bonus Episode ｜ Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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