The Megyn Kelly Show - Buffalo Blame Game, and Amber Heard Crossed on the Stand, with Jesse Kelly and Mark Geragos

00:00:00.400 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:11.300 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:14.860 President Biden and First Lady Jill Biden arriving in Buffalo a short time ago,

00:00:20.500 visiting the Topps grocery store where 10 people were killed Saturday by a racist, disturbed maniac.

00:00:28.380 The couple also meeting with the victims' families and first responders.

00:00:33.320 About an hour from now, Mr. Biden is expected to deliver remarks.

00:00:36.900 It comes as the rhetoric about the attack grows more vicious and unhinged by the day.

00:00:43.220 Many on the left blaming right-wing media for the actions of a madman who made very clear in his manifesto

00:00:49.100 where he got his ideas from the internet and some racist attacks that had happened overseas.

00:00:54.580 We take a closer look at that. Plus, we are going to get to a pair of trials underway today.

00:00:59.300 Mark Garagos is here to break down the latest in the ongoing very nasty feud between Johnny Depp and Amber Heard.

00:01:04.940 And we're also going to dig into the trial of former Clinton attorney Michael Sussman, including who's on the jury.

00:01:11.420 But we begin today with the host of The Jesse Kelly Show.

00:01:15.400 It's a radio show, and also he hosts I'm Right on The First TV. Great name.

00:01:20.820 Jesse Kelly, so good to have you on. How are you?

00:01:28.020 Well, it's an honor, Megan. It's great to be here.

00:01:31.300 We're not going to have a shortage of things to talk about, I don't think, today.

00:01:34.320 Oh, my God. No, it's a great day to have you.

00:01:36.560 No relation, though I kind of wish there were, because I think you're so clever and one of the smartest people on the internet.

00:01:41.480 Every tweet from Jesse Kelly is well worthwhile, not to mention his hamburger recipe.

00:01:45.840 Maybe that's for later. OK, so let's get with the meltdown on Buffalo, because, you know, yesterday I was saying, can we have two minutes to mourn before we start blaming the cable news hosts?

00:01:56.820 Can we have just like two minutes to feel bad about what's happened before everything gets turned into a political blame game?

00:02:03.620 And we're, of course, nobody listened to that. And it's only ramping up, right?

00:02:07.880 It's only ramping up. The left is now I've seen so precious few remembrances of the victims and so much more blame of Tucker, of Trump, of right wing media, of Republicans as an entire party.

00:02:20.860 They're not pulling back on it. They're pressing down.

00:02:24.100 Well, this is why I know this sounds probably a little over the top.

00:02:26.960 This is why we can't heal the divisions of the country, Megan.

00:02:29.840 And I wish it wasn't this way, but it used to be in the wake of something horrible, like a mass shooting, even if we disliked each other, we would just take a day, take two days.

00:02:41.520 Let's come together. Let's pray. Send a text message. Make a phone call. Mourn together.

00:02:46.840 That's part of the human experience. That's part of the way God made us. We are made to mourn.

00:02:51.120 That's why every society has funeral rights of some kind. So people can come together and mourn.

00:02:56.040 That's an important time. And that we're denied that now by the communists in this country.

00:03:01.180 It really is pulling apart the country. We have guys like Adam Schiff within two hours of the shots being fired.

00:03:08.580 I mean, not to be too vulgar, that's bodies are still warm and he's going online, taking shots at Republicans.

00:03:15.800 We don't have a moment to mourn. And since we don't have a moment to mourn, it rips the country apart further.

00:03:20.700 It's awful. It's being exploited. It's being exploited by people who want to tear down their enemies.

00:03:28.200 Like Adam Schiff, does he really spend time watching Tucker and taking in the Tucker Carlson show?

00:03:33.820 What a lie. He just knows that Tucker hits him, you know, and criticizes him from time to time.

00:03:38.820 So he's an enemy. So this is an opportunity, as Schiff sees it, to hurt a political enemy.

00:03:45.280 How craven, right? How disgusting. And on that same front, Jesse, enter the never to be outdone

00:03:52.520 Lawrence O'Donnell, who is equally bad to Adam Schiff and some of these other commentators who

00:03:59.100 made it about more than just Tucker. Take a listen to him on MSNBC last night.

00:04:04.040 The headline of Renee Graham's Boston Globe piece says,

00:04:06.240 With the Buffalo Massacre, Fox News has blood on its hands. Again. The article mentions Tucker

00:04:13.480 Carlson nine times and his predecessor Bill O'Reilly once, but the article does not mention

00:04:18.120 Rupert Murdoch under the title Fox News has blood on its hands. Fox News doesn't have hands,

00:04:26.520 but Rupert Murdoch does. White supremacist mass murderers in this country who take encouragement

00:04:33.280 from Fox wants to, among other things, stop immigration to this country, as does Fox,

00:04:40.600 a company owned and operated by an immigrant who has done more damage to this country in the 21st

00:04:47.680 century than any immigrant in the world has done to any other country in the 21st century.

00:04:55.140 Rupert Murdoch has supported the Republican Party's abject fealty to the National Rifle Association.

00:05:01.700 And so it is thanks to Rupert Murdoch, as much as it is any Republican president,

00:05:07.640 that America's mass murderers are still what they have always been, the very best equipped

00:05:13.520 mass murderers in the world. Rupert Murdoch has made sure of that. Every American mass murderer can

00:05:22.180 thank Rupert Murdoch for all the murder tools that Rupert Murdoch has made sure they are able to easily

00:05:30.480 buy over the counter. The murder tools, the murder tools. Jesse, I'll let you take it.

00:05:36.420 A few things actually on this. One, we have these two different subsets in the country,

00:05:41.160 and I don't know which one's more unhealthy. Somebody like that who's so lacking in humanity.

00:05:47.000 I mean, I saw a picture, I'm sure you saw it, Megan, of I believe she was a 77-year-old woman who

00:05:52.220 died in that supermarket shopping because she used to go shopping on Sundays, and then she would go hand

00:05:57.460 out groceries to people in need. I think she did this for 25 years, if I remember the story, and she lost

00:06:02.520 her life. And I look at that, and I honestly, I thought to myself, man, what a way for a 77-year-old

00:06:07.840 woman who lived a life of service to end, you know, at the hands of a madman. And I'm thinking, man,

00:06:12.900 her poor family. I don't wonder if she has kids. Maybe she left behind a husband. That sick freak

00:06:18.540 right there looks at that and thinks, oh, what a great opportunity to attack people politically I don't

00:06:24.320 like. How lacking in basic humanity do you have to be? And I'm a monster, Megan, and I look at that

00:06:30.800 guy, and I think, wow, that guy's a monster. And that's one. Two is how many people in the country,

00:06:36.280 and I think about this a lot, how many people in the country reside in a world entirely of make-believe

00:06:42.460 because they consume Hollywood, they consume news programs like Lawrence O'Donnell, not that anyone's

00:06:48.240 watching that crap. They read the Washington Post. They only consume traditional news sources where

00:06:54.560 they are fed lies. Everything that guy just said is a lie. They have nothing to do with the shooting

00:06:58.400 at all. And yet, if you're a person who only watches that, and maybe you don't tune into the

00:07:02.640 Megyn Kelly show the next day, you live in a world of complete fabrication. How are you and me, how are

00:07:08.980 you and I ever supposed to come together or relate to a person who lives in that world?

00:07:12.880 So it's, there's so many things about it. His attempt at profundity, Fox News doesn't have hands,

00:07:19.680 but Rupert Murdoch does. It's like, okay, that's the best you could come up with. Like you, I think

00:07:26.460 you were trying to move us. It didn't exactly work. And the nerve, because he actually shares a

00:07:33.560 primetime lineup with a woman whose show actually did drive a man to go out and shoot up a baseball

00:07:39.720 field of Republicans a few years back. That's what the guy who shot Steve Scalise and four others

00:07:43.980 said. He was a big fan of the Rachel Maddow show and her messaging. It's not, you can't blame that

00:07:48.760 shooting on Rachel Maddow. People are insane. I was very badly stalked by a guy for a long time who

00:07:54.320 thought that President Bush's ties were sending him messages from me. Okay. So Pete, there are crazy

00:08:00.740 people out there. There's nothing you can, you can do to prevent the fact that there are crazy people.

00:08:05.420 We can try to identify them. And in the wake of a mass shooting like this, we can stop and we can be

00:08:09.300 honest and say, or the signs, what more could we have done? How did the system fail? And how could

00:08:15.100 we prevent that from happening again? But this kind of obfuscation, like it's Rupert's fault,

00:08:20.840 prevents us from ever getting there, which is why it's so maddening.

00:08:24.660 It is maddening, especially for people I'm sure who listen to your show or in general going to be

00:08:30.540 thinkers, you know, think for themselves type thing, just by the nature of your audience.

00:08:34.380 And when you look at our response to everything in the country, there's no thought put into it at

00:08:39.400 all. Either it's a mass shooting and we're calling for gun control, or there's a bad police incident

00:08:44.320 in Minneapolis. And all of a sudden we're saying all the cops are racist. That's insane. Or we get a new

00:08:49.980 virus to the country and it's immediately shut down the country. No, no sober thought, no calm down,

00:08:56.140 no logical thinking, no, let's walk through this. Everything has to be some spoon fed bumper sticker

00:09:02.780 slogan, overreaction, appealing to the hyper emotional crazy people in the country. And it

00:09:10.120 drives me up the wall, Megan. It's not that I'm horrified by normal people. I'm horrified by the

00:09:15.700 leaders of our culture across the board, not just politicians, the leaders in the media,

00:09:20.360 politicians, our athletes, actors. I mean, you name people with influence. They're all a bunch of

00:09:26.560 nutballs now appealing to more nutballs. Nobody wants any sober reasoning anymore. I hate it.

00:09:31.760 And by the way, on the subject of immigration, you know, in his comments about Fox, I mean,

00:09:35.560 I was at Fox during the whole years of the immigration debate under Bush and so on.

00:09:41.120 And I can tell you exactly what happened there. There came a time after the defeat of Mitt Romney

00:09:47.240 when the Republican Party looked like it was going to go softer on immigration, Marco Rubio and others.

00:09:53.700 And Fox took a more left turn on immigration. And its primetime hosts started to sound more

00:10:01.200 open minded to immigration and, you know, whether we needed more of it and whether we needed to make

00:10:07.200 it easier and so on and so forth and whether amnesty was the right route. And the audience

00:10:12.220 revolted. The audience was not in the same place as the messaging from above. And the electoral

00:10:19.100 politics would show that within four years, right, when Trump was elected. And Fox swung back. Fox swung

00:10:25.760 back to where its audience and sort of the main sort of folks on the on the right were. That's

00:10:31.340 what happened. It's not some Rupert Murdoch directed, you know, effort to change the national

00:10:38.000 opinion. It's kind of Fox makes up its mind that back in the day it was Roger Ailes. And then the

00:10:44.200 audience has its say. Yeah. I mean, illegal immigration. You've watched this for years covering

00:10:49.480 illegal immigration, in my opinion, is the biggest wedge issue between our cultural leaders and

00:10:55.560 normal people in the country in both parties. I mean, everyone knows the Democrats want the

00:10:59.720 border open, but Republicans, frankly, are not very much better either. They only want it kind

00:11:03.800 of open, Megan. You know, maybe just on the weekends we'll open the border. Whereas normal,

00:11:08.240 sane people, they don't make illegal immigration about race. They make it about, OK, we have a sovereign

00:11:13.420 country. You can't just come in whenever you want. And if you try, you should be stopped. And if they

00:11:19.060 catch you when you're here, you should be deported. That is somehow some right wing crazy person stance

00:11:25.200 now when really every country in the history of the world would simply call that immigration policy.

00:11:30.760 You don't allow people any legally when you catch them when they are here illegally. You send them

00:11:35.680 back from whence they came. Yet look what's happened to France. You know, look what's happened in Europe

00:11:40.540 where you've had, you know, Muslims coming in from all different Muslim countries and they're changing

00:11:45.520 the culture inside France. Ayaan Hirsi Ali has done amazing reporting on this and she has a whole

00:11:50.560 book out about it. And the culture there is changing as a result. Now, you can say that's

00:11:55.800 wonderful or you can say, I don't think that's wonderful. I want the culture of France to stay

00:12:01.060 French. OK, you're entitled to either opinion. But to deny that it's a factor when you have huge

00:12:06.580 amounts of immigrants coming into the country that the culture will change is to deny reality.

00:12:11.100 Well, I think I think it's hard to deny it's a factor when you have towns in Sweden,

00:12:16.260 Sweden having bombs going off. When you look at the horrific assaults on women that have elevated

00:12:22.960 through the roof with every country that has imported mass amounts of this kind of immigration.

00:12:28.080 And I should point out simply because it applies to us recently, particularly immigration from

00:12:34.460 Afghanistan. Now, countries have experimented with immigration from different countries for a bunch

00:12:39.320 of different reasons. But there is something about Afghan refugees. This is obviously doesn't apply

00:12:44.980 to every individual person, but on a macro level, it does not work out. There is something that does

00:12:51.600 not work out, particularly for the females of the population of the country where they're importing a lot.

00:12:57.300 And why is that all of a sudden a radical conversation to have, Megan? Isn't that a normal conversation to

00:13:03.140 have? I'm a leader of a country like you pointed out, France. Is this good for the French people

00:13:08.400 to bring these people in? If the answer is yes, bring them. Is it bad? Then no, they can't come.

00:13:13.500 It seems so simple and it is so simple. And yet, because we're led in the West by the worst people

00:13:19.660 in the world, it's not so simple anymore. They make it very complicated.

00:13:23.900 Well, and it's they Tucker took all this incoming because of this so-called replacement theory that

00:13:28.160 this shooter was a fan of. And I'm no expert in this, but my layperson understanding of this is

00:13:35.080 the replacement theory that this shooter was talking about was a longstanding white supremacist

00:13:41.720 racist narrative about how, uh, I guess a Jewish cabal is trying to get rid of white people by

00:13:47.860 having black people reproduce more. I don't. Okay. Okay. Something it's bizarre. It's racist and it's

00:13:52.860 national white, white supremacist and so on. Um, but whoever's running the cabal, the goal of the,

00:13:59.180 of this group that believes this is to stop whites from being outnumbered because they think that's

00:14:05.180 bad. They think the white race is the superior race. Um, what Tucker's talking about, what Fox

00:14:09.840 has been talking about for years. I mean, go back and read any book of Ann Coulter's, um, is they

00:14:14.460 believe the Democrats are soft on the Southern border because they want an influx of immigrants

00:14:18.680 who they think will be more left-minded in their politics and will be Democrat voters. It doesn't,

00:14:23.960 it doesn't have anything to do with race. I mean, I've seen you make the point that if the Democrats

00:14:27.700 thought the people coming across the Southern border were future Republicans, they would sound

00:14:32.400 a whole lot different on security at the border. No, it's true. And someone else said that I think

00:14:39.000 it was a friend's father of mine that said, if Democrats thought illegal immigrants were going

00:14:42.840 to end up voting Republican, you'd be able to see the border wall from space. And it's a funny saying,

00:14:47.880 you know, but, but it is a hundred percent true. And it it's what's so cynical about the country now,

00:14:53.020 especially the Democrats is everything is simply about politics and political power.

00:14:59.080 Nothing is done for the benefit of America. Even the various victim groups, Democrats will try to

00:15:04.700 appeal to, you know, you have the feminists over here. And of course the LGBTQ over here and the

00:15:09.720 illegal immigrants and the black lives matter. And everything is just a cynical ploy for power.

00:15:15.900 It's not the Democrats actually give a crap about women. You can tell, look at Megan Kelly's email

00:15:21.280 inbox every single day. They don't give a crap about women. They give a crap about their politics.

00:15:25.500 But anytime you talk to a black person who has changed their politics or is flat out on the right

00:15:30.360 and they're pitching, right? Look at this, look at the horrible things these people will say to a

00:15:35.300 black person who comes out and says, um, I don't like these, this left-wing politics. They don't care

00:15:40.600 about gender or skin color or sexual orientation or illegal immigrants or the plight of, of people in

00:15:46.480 Guatemala. They care about political power and everything is to that end. And since there's

00:15:51.680 no humanity circling here, back to what we talked about, that's why you can look at a shooting in

00:15:56.260 Buffalo with 10 dead people. And instead of mourning, you take a half a second and you think, wow,

00:16:01.860 I bet I can use this. There's a real sociopathic sickness there. And I say that as a sociopath,

00:16:07.100 Megan.

00:16:07.820 You called yourself a sociopath and a monster so far. We're only 16 minutes in.

00:16:11.180 Um, is it the Saul Alinsky, you know, never let a crisis go to waste. Like they're all

00:16:17.600 opportunities. And then Rahm Emanuel pursued the same strategy during the Obama years.

00:16:21.480 And now you see it again, right? Like this has got to be the opportunity for tighter gun control

00:16:25.520 and for shutting up Republican voices and for pulling advertising from Fox news and so on.

00:16:31.040 That's what Anna Navarro said yesterday on the view. Um, I'll play a little bit of Tucker

00:16:35.040 responding in part on his show last night. Within minutes of Saturday's shooting before

00:16:40.980 all of the bodies of those 10 murdered Americans had even been identified by their loved ones,

00:16:45.800 professional Democrats had begun a coordinated campaign to blame those murders on their political

00:16:50.720 opponents. They did it. They said immediately Trumpism committed mass murder in Buffalo.

00:16:56.820 And for that reason, it followed logically. We must suspend the first amendment.

00:17:02.180 That's hardly an exaggeration of what they're saying. So what is hate speech? Well,

00:17:06.380 it's speech that our leaders hate. So because a mentally ill teenager murdered strangers,

00:17:11.200 you cannot be allowed to express your political views out loud. That's what they're telling you.

00:17:16.620 That's what they've wanted to tell you for a long time. But Saturday's massacre gives them a pretext

00:17:21.980 to justification. That's it. Now you can't even discuss this. Now your objection to our sieve of a

00:17:29.900 southern border is to blame for what happened in Buffalo, two totally different things. Um,

00:17:36.020 and if you say otherwise, you are a racist, you're basically just like the gunman.

00:17:40.860 It's funny how often they keep using the words Tucker just brought up there, Megan hate speech. I saw

00:17:46.380 New York governor Kathy Hochul said something about that yesterday. Well, free speech is great, but not

00:17:51.400 hate speech. And we're going to, we're going to crack down on hate speech. And whenever I hear them say

00:17:55.760 that, I like to tell people, go pick up your cell phone, go look at the last five or six political

00:18:01.260 texts you've sent to your buddies, to your mom, to your wife, to your husband. Do you think Kathy

00:18:06.420 Hochul would look at any of those and say that's hate speech? It is actually a dangerous road we're

00:18:11.140 going down to see them try to criminalize hate speech. Um, I hate lots of things and I'm going to

00:18:17.340 continue to say those things openly because that is free speech. And if we start letting them

00:18:21.660 criminalize it, we're heading down a real dark road. It's literally why the first amendment was

00:18:25.960 born. It was not born to protect speech that you like that needed no protection. It was born to

00:18:31.240 protect controversial speech that upset people that would have been labeled hateful. And that

00:18:38.040 doesn't mean that there isn't true hate speech. If this guy read his manifesto out loud, it would

00:18:42.760 certainly qualify as hate speech. What he wrote down in there, there was hate speech, but that doesn't

00:18:47.420 make it illegal. It makes it awful. He deserved this is pre shooting to be shunned and certainly

00:18:53.220 to be institutionalized. But my point is you can't, you can't call something hate speech and shut it

00:18:59.580 down because it's literally protected by the first amendment. And I don't think that will ever change

00:19:03.080 no matter how many lunatics get out of Yale law school and wind up on our courts. Well, Megan,

00:19:08.500 I actually think you brought up a really great point right there. Shouldn't, wouldn't we be better off

00:19:12.980 as a society if all the most detestable, hateful people were actually given platforms instead of

00:19:20.080 constantly censored off of platforms? I've said this forever. I don't want anyone censored off of

00:19:25.480 Twitter. I want Louis Farrakhan on there, put the KKK on there, put the Black Panthers on there,

00:19:31.780 leave the daggone terrorists on there for all I care. I don't want my enemy in hiding, whispering

00:19:37.020 behind my back. I want him out there announcing his thoughts and his views and his plans publicly

00:19:43.220 so we can all see them. If you're some deranged psychopath and Buffalo, I don't want you kicked

00:19:48.500 off of Facebook because you say you hate, what was it, Jews? Of course it was the Jews. I hate the Jews.

00:19:53.360 I don't want you kicked off. I would like your profile to be public so me and everyone around

00:19:57.820 you can see, wow, this guy is a hateful scumbag, might want to keep our eyes on someone like this.

00:20:04.140 Instead, what? We act like we're accomplishing something by slicing off somebody's Twitter

00:20:08.600 account when really we're just driven him deeper underground. Now you and me, we don't know who

00:20:13.520 these people are. We might get shot in the dairy aisle because this guy doesn't have any kind of

00:20:18.000 an outlet. Well, now it seems like there's that level, right? Social media will definitely pull

00:20:25.300 your account if they think you've engaged in hateful speech or something that crosses the line in

00:20:29.920 some 20 year old Twitter employees view. But now in the wake of this sort of Elon rattling about

00:20:36.500 Twitter and so on, it seems like there was a second level of censorship, which they did to people like

00:20:41.640 you, I'm sure, like me, I now believe, and others where you weren't kicked off, but there was

00:20:47.460 definitely some sort of manipulation of the accounts. I mean, I don't know about you, but I'm

00:20:51.080 getting like new followers by the tens of thousands. They're coming to my account like in the course of

00:20:56.220 three weeks. Why? Why? That, that hasn't happened before. I've been much more in the news than I

00:21:01.200 have been this past month. Something was going on there. So the, the attempt to stifle a connection

00:21:06.600 between audiences and conservative thinkers or people who are not of the left, I think has been

00:21:11.740 going on on multiple layers and it is disturbing. Well, yeah, it gives you a dark window into how these

00:21:18.200 people view the world. And obviously you're right. I mean, I've noticed the same thing too, picking up

00:21:22.340 all kinds of new followers every day from with no explanation. So I of course just blamed it on my

00:21:27.480 own self thinking I was as brilliant as humanly possible, Megan, but we all know, we all know what

00:21:32.560 the deal is. Elon Musk's turns out to be some free speech guy, or at least he claims to be. That's a good

00:21:39.180 thing. Buys Twitter. And the second the deal's done, Elon Musk starts to notice what we all notice

00:21:45.700 that Twitter seems to be unlocking accounts, stopping the shadow banning. So look, everyone knows what

00:21:52.160 happened. Twitter employees panicked when Elon bought it and they were going to have to open up the

00:21:57.240 books to him and show him exactly what he bought. And so they had to stop doing a lot of the things

00:22:02.140 they'd previously done. And again, doesn't it say everything you need to know about your ideology or

00:22:07.020 when it comes to communism, your religion, if you have to constantly silence people who disagree with

00:22:12.440 it? Can I ask you about Elon? Do you think this is going to go through? Because he tweeted out, it's on

00:22:17.760 hold until he can figure out what percentage of the Twitter accounts are fake. And the president had

00:22:24.880 represented the CEO of Twitter had represented it was no more than five percent. Elon seemed to say, no, I

00:22:31.220 don't believe that. And then he seemed to say it's tough to figure out. And then Elon tweeted out a pile of

00:22:36.200 poop, like the poop emoji in response to the Twitter CEO's claims. And now you've got Kara Swisher, who is like

00:22:44.320 the preeminent tech journalist. She used to write for The Wall Street Journal. Now she writes for

00:22:48.560 New York Times saying she thinks it's a terrible deal for Elon Musk, that the price he's paying is

00:22:54.700 way, way overpriced and she doesn't see him going forward with this, not at this price. So what do you

00:22:59.800 make of it? You never know what's in the mind of the guy next to you, right? Let alone some billionaire

00:23:05.000 you've never met before. So I don't know if I can speak for him, but there are a couple of things I can

00:23:09.220 say. Obviously, Elon Musk didn't buy Twitter because it was going to be a moneymaker. Now,

00:23:16.160 that guy probably figured out how to make money with it anyway. But he bought it either as some

00:23:20.980 kind of, I don't know, proverbial middle finger to the left, or he bought it as a new free speech

00:23:26.620 platform. Maybe he really is some free speech absolutist. So he didn't buy it to make money

00:23:32.120 anyway, in my personal opinion. And when you're the richest guy in the world, I know that sounds

00:23:37.160 vulgar to you and me and everyone else listening. But what's $44 billion to Elon Musk? That's

00:23:43.420 obviously a lot of money to all the rest of us. But to Elon Musk, I mean, that's like me paying an

00:23:48.400 extra 50 cents to have extra cheese on my quarter pounder. It's just not that big of a deal.

00:23:53.480 And it's not even all his money. I mean, he's getting investments from all different people.

00:23:56.920 So yeah, it was interesting. Today he made comments, or at least they hit the news,

00:24:00.380 where he was talking. I think he was talking to, oh, who are the guys on that podcast? I interviewed

00:24:07.000 some of them. Anyway, I'll get to, I'll get it. But he was making comments about President Biden

00:24:12.040 suggesting the real president is the teleprompter and saying, if somebody happens to like fall asleep

00:24:18.560 on the teleprompter or lean on the teleprompter, Joe Biden's going to start talking like anchorman,

00:24:22.680 you know, like just reading ridiculous things, which PS may have already happened.

00:24:28.240 You know, I see, I saw that. And what I see happening with him, because this is not some,

00:24:33.060 this is not some hardcore right winger, right? Elon Musk. I mean, I know you followed him at

00:24:37.940 least a little. This is a guy who very much considered himself a moderate, a centrist.

00:24:41.820 But I've seen this phenomenon with people before where they're not really politically involved,

00:24:45.940 or hey, I'm a moderate, little left, little right. And they say one little thing to upset the

00:24:51.660 communists. And then they get a window, a little window into the world of just how vicious and nasty

00:24:57.560 these people can be. And it pushes them to the right. I've seen this several times. You take

00:25:02.940 somebody who's been a moderate, comes out with a moderate position because he doesn't tow the party

00:25:07.860 line of the communists. They just attack him viciously. And soon he's further to the right

00:25:13.540 than me because he got a window into how evil these people are. And so it's obvious. I mean,

00:25:19.160 when's the last time you saw Elon Musk trolling Joe Biden? It's clear they're pushing him to the right.

00:25:23.440 Oh, my gosh, Jesse, you're so right. This this leads me to my hope for your children and mine

00:25:30.300 that that the same thing is kind of being done to them in their schools day by day,

00:25:35.060 the indoctrination, the constant focus on skin color, on gender, on identity.

00:25:40.300 These kids, I am convinced, are going to be more right wing or at least get off of me,

00:25:47.400 get off of me and stop telling me how I'm supposed to think. Then Gen X, you know,

00:25:52.580 I just think I can see it coming. Forget Gen Z. I'm talking about the young ones,

00:25:56.120 the ones who were like, you know, young double digits and maybe a little older.

00:26:00.180 I think those kids are the hope of the future because they've had it worse than anybody

00:26:03.620 and they're going to rebel. I actually agree with you. I've made this point, too. I think we have

00:26:09.380 some underground generation of freedom fighters that we can't see yet, right,

00:26:14.320 because they're just now starting to get pimples. But they've seen, especially the last two years

00:26:18.320 with the COVID lockdown stuff, they've gotten authoritarian government right in their faces.

00:26:23.180 Kids aren't stupid. Kids are not dumb. I have an 11-year-old and a 13-year-old and they can smell

00:26:29.400 bullcrap a million miles away. Kids have understood, wait a minute, I can't see my friends.

00:26:35.280 Why do I have this stupid thing on my face? I can read statistics. I'm not in any danger at all.

00:26:40.840 Why have I been abused by authority figures for the last two years? And that makes an impression,

00:26:46.360 and good on them. I hope they grow up and rebel. All right. I'm sorry, but I'd be remiss if I

00:26:51.540 didn't take this opportunity, since we're speaking about kids and crap, if I didn't tell you this

00:26:56.200 story about my Thatcher, my eight-year-old. I said the other night at dinner, I said to him,

00:26:59.980 Thatcher, why do you spend so much time in the bathroom? You're in there forever.

00:27:03.320 And he said, I don't know. He goes, sometimes I talk to the toilet paper. I said, you talk to the

00:27:08.780 toilet paper? I said, what do you say to it? He said, you're about to go on a disgusting adventure.

00:27:16.360 You know, Megan, that kid's going to be sitting in your chair one of these days.

00:27:26.740 Here's the epilogue to it. I said, oh, Thatcher, that was quite quick and clever

00:27:31.240 of a response. And he goes, it was quick, but it wasn't clever. I really do say it.

00:27:36.940 All right. So there's that. And I'll be right back with more with Jesse Kelly, including on

00:27:43.420 what's happening in the latest Durham case against this lawyer, this Clinton lawyer, Sussman.

00:27:54.520 Jesse, I want to ask you about Kamala Harris because she's done it again. It's amazing the

00:28:00.480 word salad so that this woman is able to prepare. They're second to none. I mean, in their length,

00:28:04.740 in their rambling nature. But let me not be a Kamala Harris. I will cut to the chase and play

00:28:11.600 the soundbite of her responding to Peter Doocy. No, sorry. That's a different thing. This is her

00:28:18.020 speaking at the Association of Southeast Nations special summit in Washington, D.C. on Friday.

00:28:25.240 Listen, that is especially true when it comes to the climate crisis, which is why we will work

00:28:30.820 together and continue to work together to address these issues, to tackle these challenges and to

00:28:37.820 work together as we continue to work operating from the new norms, rules and agreements that we will

00:28:46.240 convene to work together on to galvanize global action. With that, I thank you all. This is a matter

00:28:54.880 of urgent priority for all of us. And I know we will work on this together.

00:29:00.880 Okay. All right, Megan, I have to tell you, I've thought this for a while because

00:29:05.540 honestly, I'm not trying to be mean for once. I'm really not. That person is the vice president

00:29:12.360 of the United States of America. And she's the least capable. And I realized that's saying something.

00:29:18.940 She's the least capable human being I've ever seen in politics in my life. So how do you get there?

00:29:25.020 I think Kamala Harris is a media failure. I mean, if you talk to people who are well aware of

00:29:30.140 California politics, which is obviously where she came from, because I'll ask them questions of how

00:29:34.740 could she get to a senator? I mean, senator of California has got a big deal. I mean, how do you

00:29:40.100 achieve these things? And every one of them to a man to a woman, they've told me the media is so

00:29:46.040 accommodating to California Democrats, even more so than our national media is that they would not

00:29:51.980 only never vet her, they would shun any vetting of her. So she just kept failing upwards until she

00:29:59.520 fails upwards into the office of the vice president. And Joe Biden is, I mean, what are we supposed to

00:30:05.940 say, Megan? Not doing great. Obviously, everyone can see it. Everyone with eyes can see it. There's

00:30:11.380 an above average chance that human being is the leader of the free world within the next couple

00:30:17.260 of years in the world. How does that happen? No, no, we can't. I mean, I mean, I think even even

00:30:23.620 Republicans are hoping that Joe Biden's help holds out and that he does, you know, like they don't

00:30:28.420 want Kamala Harris in there. She doesn't seem up to the job. Look, I'm sure that's true about the

00:30:33.560 California Democrat thing. I mean, that's like the holy grail for Democrats, the California Democrat.

00:30:38.100 That's exciting. That's cool. That's I can be part of the hip crowd and no celebrities, too.

00:30:43.940 She's also a woman. She's also a woman of color. All those things help open doors that wouldn't be

00:30:48.720 open in today's day and age to a Jesse Kelly. That's for sure. She's not the only one. Now,

00:30:54.360 there's a new press secretary in town and she has taken to the podium, Kareem Jean-Pierre.

00:31:02.020 And like one of the first things she declared was that I'm a black lesbian woman and an immigrant.

00:31:09.680 And it's like, OK, great. I mean, thank you. That's the way you do it. Democrat circles. Now,

00:31:15.600 I remember our old school, they hired a new DEI director. And the first thing he said was,

00:31:19.420 I never enter a room without being conscious of my blackness, my cisgenderedness. And it was like,

00:31:25.160 oh, my God. OK, so she was asked a question by Peter Doocy. And I'm telling you, it wasn't exactly

00:31:32.460 the picture of competence in response. Listen, he's asking her about inflation, inflation and a Biden

00:31:38.560 claim that raising taxes on corporations will combat it. Here's how that went. The president's

00:31:45.300 Twitter account posted the other day, you want to bring down inflation. Let's make sure the wealthiest

00:31:49.780 corporations pay their fair share. How does raising taxes on corporations reduce inflation?

00:31:58.520 So are you talking about a specific tweet? He tweeted, you want to bring down inflation. Let's

00:32:05.020 make sure the wealthiest corporations pay their fair share. Look, you know, we have talked about

00:32:10.440 we have talked about this this past year about making sure that the wealthiest among us are paying

00:32:17.640 their fair share. And that is important to do. And that is something that, you know, the president

00:32:23.580 has been, you know, working on every day when we talk about inflation and lowering costs. And so it's

00:32:28.820 very important that, you know, as we're seeing costs rise, as we're talking about how to, you know,

00:32:36.540 you know, build an America that's safe, that's equal for everyone and doesn't leave everyone behind.

00:32:42.100 That is an important part of that as well. But how does raising taxes on corporations lower the cost

00:32:49.620 of gas, the cost of a used car, the cost of food for everyday Americans? So look, I think we encourage

00:32:55.280 those who have done very well, right, especially those who care about climate change to support a

00:33:01.400 fair tax. She's reading that doesn't change that doesn't charge manufacturers, workers, cops,

00:33:06.640 builders, builders, a higher percentage of their earnings, that the most fortunate people in our

00:33:11.520 nation, and not let this that stand in the way of reducing energy costs and fighting this

00:33:16.660 existential problem, if you think about that as an example, and to support basic collective bargaining

00:33:22.360 rights as well, right? That's also important. But look, it is, you know, by not without having a

00:33:29.060 tax code, which is what I'm talking about, then all every like manufacturing workers, cops,

00:33:34.980 you know, it's not fair for them to have to pay higher taxes than the folks that who are who are

00:33:41.200 who are not paying taxes at all.

00:33:43.240 OMG. In the court, Jesse, you get an objection non responsive, and it would be sustained.

00:33:48.640 I mean, you just bottled up this theory I have for I've had for a while of it's easiest to think

00:33:55.620 about these communists as if they're robots. And I really again, I'm not trying to be insulting,

00:33:59.680 but it's hard for people who think to understand there are a lot of people in this society and every

00:34:05.740 society who genuinely don't want to think they don't have any desire to do so. And she's a perfect

00:34:12.040 example of that. That's a human being who's never thought she goes up to the hive mind as her robot,

00:34:18.060 as a robot self does. And she gets new software uploaded every now and then with the new talking

00:34:23.520 points of whatever they're talking about. And then she goes away. And she's only programmed with

00:34:29.060 a certain few things, right? It's not a human being. It's not a thinking human being. It's just

00:34:33.140 software. And so the second you ask the robots, you know, about something outside of their programming,

00:34:39.660 well, the robot can't do that. That's why these communists either just change the subject like that

00:34:44.500 and talk about nonsense, or they'll lash out and lie, you Nazi, or they'll just completely go off the

00:34:50.520 rails. She's not capable of getting deeper than two inches because she was asked about something

00:34:56.000 outside of her programming. And so she ends up sounding like an idiot. And it happens to all of

00:35:00.040 them. My gosh, that is that rings true because you could see she didn't understand. She didn't

00:35:05.700 understand the question. She wasn't even able to parlay it into something that was just very close,

00:35:10.900 but a one off. She went off into left field about equity when it comes to taxes. OK, great.

00:35:16.520 That's about taxes. He's asking how raising taxes will lower inflation. You're not even

00:35:21.980 addressing inflation. If this is your plan for lowering inflation, we're all effed. So it's an

00:35:27.960 important question. Megan, I've watched I've had frustration with this. I'm sure you probably

00:35:33.480 experienced it as well. But I watched regular people have frustration with this when they deal

00:35:37.080 with relatives. You know, you're crazy and at Thanksgiving or something like that. People on

00:35:40.920 the right have this frustration. If I can't ever hold them down and get an answer. Peter Ducey could

00:35:46.080 have asked that question a thousand different ways. He could have been given an hour with her

00:35:50.440 and she never would have gotten to it because it's simply outside of her programming. And it always

00:35:55.540 will be. It's it's something people on the right have to accept. Save who you can save. There are a lot

00:36:01.180 of people on the left who are thinking and they are watching and they're not liking what they're seeing.

00:36:05.720 But you have to understand when you're dealing with the robot who's beyond salvage and people like

00:36:10.440 that or be on salvage. It reminds me of my my dear old God rest her soul Nana. She died at 101 in 2016.

00:36:18.960 And toward the end there, she had terrible hearing. And you say, hey, Nan, how you feeling? And she go,

00:36:26.320 huh? No, I don't want pizza. That's kind of what just happened there.

00:36:31.900 Um, again, non responsive and embarrassing. I have to say, whenever I see something like that,

00:36:37.580 I feel like womankind takes a hit. You know, you've been given the big job. Step up to the

00:36:42.120 plate. Get off your damn talking points. The answer isn't in your stupid robotic notes. Try

00:36:47.940 to think, think and try to figure it out. And if you don't know the answer of why raising corporate

00:36:53.560 taxes would lower inflation, say, I'm going to have to ask him about that, about the tie he made.

00:36:58.560 But I can tell you why in general, we're for raising corporate taxes. Be smarter. Do better.

00:37:03.820 Prepare harder. It was day one. So maybe she'll get better.

00:37:07.360 You know, I don't know about womankind taking a hit, though, Megan. I really think it's just the

00:37:11.840 diversity hire in general takes a hit. Honestly, more than anything else, she's been cheated.

00:37:17.680 She's been raised and guided her whole life to think that her sex is what's going to get her ahead

00:37:22.660 and what matters or who she's lezzin out with at the moment or immigrant thing. But she's been

00:37:28.520 taught that. And so now that's why she listed it. You talked about it earlier in the show. I'm the

00:37:33.280 first game, whatever. She's been taught that she's been cheated by, I don't know, her parents,

00:37:38.840 the media, whoever guided her in that way, to now she actually believes those are accomplishments

00:37:43.820 instead of, no, you go compete with a room full of men, women, every different color, whoever they

00:37:49.460 are. You go compete. You be better and win. She'll never have a feeling of accomplishment like you've had

00:37:56.120 a million times in your career. She'll never have that because she's been handed so many things

00:38:01.400 because of whatever, because of things that don't actually matter. So she'll actually never have a

00:38:08.020 feeling in her life of, wow, I did it because I was better. I was smarter. I worked harder. She'll

00:38:13.880 never get that. She's been denied that her whole life. And that's actually sad.

00:38:17.180 It's so it's what's so objectionable to the whole, you know, sort of DEI heading. I had Christian Walker

00:38:22.360 on the show yesterday saying he can't stand those programs because it's it says to somebody like

00:38:26.980 him, Herschel Walker's son, and also just a huge social media star. He's only 22. This kid's

00:38:31.660 rocking. But he was saying it tells me like I can't I got to get ahead because somebody feels bad for me

00:38:37.120 because of what my skin color, because I'm a gay man or he doesn't like gay. He says a man who's

00:38:41.660 interested in other men. He's like, I'm not doing the whole rainbow thing. Anyway, his point is I'll get

00:38:46.900 ahead because I'm smart. I'm working hard and I'll get there based on my own merit, my own brain.

00:38:51.020 I mean, it's the whole Democrat program is to make you feel like you can only get there if they give

00:38:56.900 you a hand up. And I think they genuinely believe, you know, that's sort of their own racism and

00:39:01.180 sexism. They genuinely believe you couldn't get there unless somebody gave you a hand up.

00:39:06.960 They do. And how many people in this society think like that now, Megan, that's that's part of what's

00:39:12.080 so sad. I mean, it's one thing for, as you pointed out earlier, Rachel Maddow, you know,

00:39:16.480 has it obviously makes a great living MSNBC. It's one thing for her to think that way.

00:39:20.440 But how many young people across the country are we cheating by programming them like this

00:39:26.480 constantly? They're going to grow up. I mean, they're going to hold on to these values. Most

00:39:30.900 of them, some will switch and wake up, but they'll hold on to these values. And you're going to live

00:39:35.260 a life of what, 70, 80 years on this earth and never have that feeling inside of you of actually,

00:39:42.380 you know, climbing Mount Everest on your own, constantly having an ax to grind, constantly

00:39:47.420 feeling aggrieved by society in one way or the other. And it's a, it's a very unhealthy way to

00:39:53.480 be. I've said this before. Even if I was a scumbag communist parent, I wouldn't want to raise my kids

00:40:00.160 that way because that's miserable. What a miserable way to live your life. Always feeling cheated by the

00:40:07.140 system or something or somebody always bitter, always, always angry about something. Why would you

00:40:12.500 want to do that to your children? But they do. Even in the bit where she's like, I am a black,

00:40:18.960 whatever. Listen, what she even there, she's reading. All right. So I'm going to play it.

00:40:23.500 People can watch it on YouTube later to see what I'm talking about. But she's she even had to read

00:40:26.920 that. Here it is soundbite five. I am obviously acutely aware that my presence at this podium

00:40:33.000 represents a few firsts. I am a black gay immigrant woman, the first of all three of those to hold this

00:40:41.480 position. I would not be here today if it were not for generations of barriers, barrier breaking people

00:40:48.880 before me. I stand on their shoulders. If it were not for generations of barrier, barrier breaking

00:40:56.320 people before me, I would not be here. Representation does matter. You hear us, you hear us say this

00:41:02.260 often in this administration. And no one understands this better than President Biden.

00:41:08.020 Still reading.

00:41:09.000 Which is why his administration is not only the most diverse in history, it is filled with

00:41:14.200 barrier breaking women and men from the vice president to the cabinet secretaries to his

00:41:20.340 Supreme Court nominee to senior staff throughout this administration.

00:41:25.280 What? She's making it sound like she's the Supreme Court nominee. You're just a stupid press secretary.

00:41:30.240 No one cares about that stupid ass job.

00:41:32.960 Megan, Megan, is there anything worse? I mean, of all the different groups, is there anything worse

00:41:37.920 than the bitter feminists luxuriating in America in 2022? If you're a woman in America,

00:41:44.000 in 2022, you do understand you have the highest standard of living of any women who've ever

00:41:50.160 lived in the history of mankind. And yet somehow these people watch too much news or Hollywood shows

00:41:56.880 and they really wake up and feel as if they're oppressed in some way. Ladies, you got it real

00:42:03.000 good. And I'm not saying men don't. We got it good, too. But it's time to stop whining. Wake up,

00:42:07.580 look around and count your blessings because there are a lot of them.

00:42:09.960 Well, listen, little boys don't have it so good in certain parts of the country right now. And I'll

00:42:15.300 give you a case in chief. Let me see where this is out of. Hold on. It came to us from Fox 11 News.

00:42:22.100 I'm trying to find the state. But this kid, 13 years old, gets accused of sexual harassment in

00:42:30.620 Wisconsin, Wisconsin Middle School. This is per the college fix. Fox News also did it.

00:42:35.020 Three male students at a Wisconsin middle school have been charged charged with Title IX based

00:42:40.800 sexual harassment, harassment for using incorrect pronouns with respect to a classmate. This is

00:42:47.500 insane. They did not use the classmates requested pronouns of they and them. The mother of one of

00:42:55.340 the students told the Keele area school district officials, the use of these pronouns is confusing

00:43:00.780 to my little boy. And he has no obligation to use their desired pronouns. And this is not sexual

00:43:07.600 harassment. He's a little boy. And the school stands by the designation. Here is that mom in an

00:43:14.660 interview with Fox 11. I received a phone call from the principal over at the elementary school

00:43:20.540 for warning me, letting me know that I was going to be receiving an email with sexual harassment

00:43:27.260 allegations against my son. He said he's being allegedly charged with sexual harassment for

00:43:33.360 not using proper pronouns. She had been screaming at one of Brayden's friends to use proper pronouns,

00:43:39.640 calling him profanity. And this friend is, you know, very soft spoken and kind of just sunk down into

00:43:45.160 his chair. And Brayden finally came up defending him, saying he doesn't have to use proper pronouns.

00:43:51.900 It's his constitutional right to not use. You can't make him say things.

00:43:57.140 Some might say or think that you or your son are against the LGBTQ plus community.

00:44:02.220 Not at all. Not at all. My my children have been raised to love everybody equally.

00:44:08.700 It's insane, Jesse.

00:44:10.220 You know what? Maybe the most insane part of that is, Megan, the reporter's question at the end about

00:44:15.060 are you saying is your son against the LGBTQ community? This is we are honestly people have

00:44:21.780 heard me your whole show called them communists. I don't say that to be over the top. We have this

00:44:26.600 cultural Marxism sickness in this country, and that's no different than the struggle sessions

00:44:31.540 people in communist countries have had to go through time and time again for the last hundred years

00:44:36.580 of that sick religion's existence. Well, you won't say they them. Do you? You must hate the gays.

00:44:41.860 Tell me how much you love the gays. If you don't love the gays, you're going to get banned and shunned

00:44:46.100 from society. And we're doing this now to kids. I mean, it's one thing to do it to you. I mean,

00:44:51.240 it's water off a duck's back. We're doing this to children. What are we doing to the mental health

00:44:56.680 of children in this country? Real quickly, because I know we're almost out of time. I remember after

00:45:00.940 George Floyd died and all the BLM Antifa street animals were burning down cities across the country.

00:45:06.840 My kids have never we've never discussed race in the house. We live in an area where there's every

00:45:10.640 different color. My kids' friends are of every different color. It's just not something I

00:45:14.000 prioritize. So it's never something we've talked about. We've never brought it up. And all of a

00:45:18.080 sudden, my kids consume enough news, watch enough things out there. I'll never forget this day,

00:45:23.160 Megan, where my youngest son said to me, Dad, do black people hate us? And I mean, I've never been

00:45:29.740 so taken aback. I don't want to use the word devastated, but it sucked to have to sit my son down and

00:45:35.740 explain, no, there are some people that are bad and they're using a tragedy. But that's what we're

00:45:40.360 doing nationwide to kids with this kind of crap. And it's whatever it's doing to them. It ain't

00:45:45.920 healthy. It's abuse. And that's why shame on anyone who sits back and allows it to happen without. I

00:45:53.180 know you've been a big proponent of pay attention to your local school board election. It's more

00:45:57.040 important than the congressional midterms that are coming up. Get off your ass, do a little research

00:46:01.140 and figure out who to back, because if you don't hashtag part of the problem. Jesse Kelly,

00:46:06.280 the burger recipe will have to wait, I guess. I can squeeze it in real quickly. All right. It's

00:46:10.700 the special. Is it the Chipotle hot sauce? That is the magic ingredient. Tell me quickly.

00:46:17.240 All right. World famous fresh buns, fattiest burger you can find, garlic powder, any general

00:46:22.720 seasoning, salt, American cheese, because we're Americans here and a boatload of Chipotle Tabasco

00:46:27.860 sauce. Best burger of your life. It really was. I did it. I followed it to the letter and it was

00:46:33.500 mouthwateringly great. Jesse Kelly, thanks for all of it. Great to see you. Thanks, Megan.

00:46:41.640 Amber Heard is back on the stand and facing tough questioning from Johnny Depp's attorney. You recall

00:46:46.900 this is a case in which Depp has sued Heard, alleging that she defamed him because in a 2018

00:46:52.660 op-ed that appeared in The Washington Post under Amber's name, she said she was a domestic abuse

00:46:58.380 victim and had felt all the consequences of coming forward with that. We now know from her testimony

00:47:03.840 at this trial that the ACLU wrote that entire thing. And now she's actually trying to claim that

00:47:09.520 it wasn't Johnny Depp. She was they were talking about. She's back in the stand. And about a week

00:47:16.420 ago when she went off the stand after just giving her direct testimony, Mark Garagos joined me and we

00:47:22.020 talked about what we thought about it. And we both said, but, you know, she hasn't been crossed yet.

00:47:25.740 So let's just let's wait. Well, that's underway right now. He's been closely watching this whole

00:47:30.680 thing. He's the managing partner of Garagos and Garagos, and he co-hosts his own podcast called

00:47:35.080 Reasonable Doubt, which is well worth your time. He joins me now. Mark, great to have you back.

00:47:40.980 Thank you. Welcome. I'm glad to be back, although we caused a little bit of a stir, Megan.

00:47:46.540 Well, that's always fun. Welcome to my world. You've been there all your life. What do you mean?

00:47:51.320 I'm welcoming. Exactly. I was sure. Poor Megan got dragged in as collateral damage on this. Even

00:47:56.900 Joe Rogan was weighing in on it on our little segment, which I thought was kind of humorous.

00:48:03.040 Well, that's good promo. Yeah, exactly.

00:48:06.540 I mean, I don't know what Joe Rogan said, but Joe Rogan is not a lawyer and he's never tried a case

00:48:10.300 in his life. And you've tried the biggest and most notorious. And I've tried some myself.

00:48:15.360 So I think as good lawyers, we're trying to keep an open mind here. And I do think there are a lot

00:48:20.060 of partisans on this case. It's not exactly. I don't know. It's sort of coming down along gender

00:48:24.980 lines, weirdly, where like a lot of guys are like everything she says is a lie. And the women,

00:48:31.740 you know, I don't know where the women are. You say they're going to be against her. But but the

00:48:35.520 partisans who are commenting on it, it's like they have a horse in the race, you know, like

00:48:40.240 they need to believe him and they need to disbelieve her because it's like about male rights.

00:48:46.840 I've been saying on the podcast since the beginning that that at least anecdotally,

00:48:51.800 it clearly is coming down along gender lines. Although there is a segment of females or those

00:48:58.680 who identify as females, you know, if I must be correct, who have who have kind of jumped over

00:49:05.280 to team Johnny Depp. And I think it kind of illustrates the point that I've always made

00:49:13.100 is that these cases are won or lost in jury selection, because no matter what happens,

00:49:18.160 no matter how this unfolds, if you take a look at how people are reacting to it, you're not changing

00:49:23.680 any minds. Maybe you and I have talked about how there's been kind of a pendulum swing in terms of

00:49:31.440 her. But for the most part, people are, as you call them, partisans, I'll call them zealots.

00:49:37.340 And they've made up their mind and they're not buying anything that the other side is selling.

00:49:42.380 Well, that's what makes you coming on this show and us having this discussion, this discussion

00:49:47.340 unique, because neither one of us is rooting for anybody. Like I'm truly watching the evidence as it

00:49:53.700 comes in, like a juror would, and trying to figure out who do I think is a truth teller?

00:49:58.300 I don't need to buy into a larger overarching societal narrative in order to cover this case

00:50:03.660 fairly. So let's just take the audience through that, right? And let me tell you, let me ask you

00:50:10.440 one thing. I want to get your reaction to it. I thought, and I know what they're doing. I know

00:50:15.240 they have a calculation because I've said since the beginning, this 2018 editorial that was in the

00:50:20.880 Washington Post, he did not even name him. So I have always made the argument, and I've done it with

00:50:26.940 you as well, that why are you rehashing this? It amplifies something that really was not that big

00:50:33.520 of a deal to begin with. Well, they've apparently decided, they, I'm talking about her team, Amber's

00:50:39.980 team, that they're going to run away from that editorial and say it really wasn't about him

00:50:45.500 at all. And I'm not so sure that that makes a whole lot of sense at the same time that you're

00:50:51.460 testifying that he was a serial abuser. And I was wondering what you thought about that.

00:50:57.520 I totally agree with you. I think we've seen her caught in several lies. As soon as the other

00:51:01.660 lawyers got on her, she's lied quite a few times in my view. And that's the biggest one of all. It's

00:51:07.880 like, well, we know it was him. What are you saying? You're just trying to dodge liability now.

00:51:12.840 And you have a defense to this exposure that doesn't require you to tell that lie. So are you just a

00:51:19.300 gratuitous liar? Are you just, you know, you, you lie about anything because you could easily say,

00:51:24.040 indeed, it was Johnny Depp. And the reason it's not defamation is it's true. She didn't need to say

00:51:31.380 this BS. Right. You know, my son used to love when Dr. Henry Lee used to call it a shotgun approach.

00:51:39.280 And that's kind of a shotgun approach of the defense. And I don't think jurors like that because

00:51:46.520 I think the jurors say, well, wait a second here. You're telling me that he abused you here.

00:51:51.880 He abused you there. We're going into details about the makeup. And now you're telling me that

00:51:56.520 it really wasn't about it. Then why didn't you just say it really wasn't about it? Why are we

00:52:00.480 going through all this stuff? Why are you wasting our time? That's right. If you, why isn't your

00:52:05.380 defense? Oh, it's about my ex-boyfriend, you know, not Johnny, but Frankie. Frankie was a terrible

00:52:10.580 man. Frankie did it all. Here's my affidavit from Frankie saying he abused me. I mean,

00:52:14.680 like done. Okay. Bye. Um, we all know. And so she's not getting away with it. It's making her

00:52:19.480 look bad. Um, there's another, sorry to go right back to poop gate, but she, in my view,

00:52:25.120 she lied about that too. I actually said a line to my producer, Canadian Debbie that I never said

00:52:30.360 before, which is we're going to need a picture of the poop. Were you, were you going to blur it out?

00:52:38.580 No, we're going to let the poop flag fry fly. She's saying it's not blurred because here,

00:52:44.340 well, let me set it up, Deb. Hold on. So here's the story for the people who haven't been paying

00:52:48.200 attention. Johnny Depp claims that, uh, he had a big argument with Amber and he left their marital

00:52:52.680 house and he went someplace else. And that when he came home the next morning, there was

00:52:56.020 poop in the marital bed that the maid actually found poop in the marital bed. And, uh, that it was

00:53:02.040 Amber who left it there, Amber and her friend. And he presented testimony in his case from the

00:53:07.540 limo driver who drove Amber and the friend the next morning to Coachella, where she took a bunch

00:53:12.100 of mushrooms and drugs. This is her life. Okay. This is this woman who was like, okay, fine. Um,

00:53:18.400 you have no idea how, you have no idea how Hollywood this whole thing is.

00:53:23.040 It's horrific. I don't want to be friends with these people at all. I'm on the right coast.

00:53:27.400 There's no bad people here. Um, anyway, so, so the, the, the driver who had Amber in the car

00:53:36.120 testified, he heard them admit it. So Amber takes the stand and here's what she said. This is sound

00:53:42.920 bite 11. She had eaten, uh, Johnny's weed when she was a puppy, her dog had, she's talking about

00:53:49.100 her dog control issues for her entire life. Among some other issues was, you know, we regularly had

00:53:55.680 to take her to the vet to try to figure out, well, what was wrong with this dog? Um, never met a dog

00:54:02.040 that was quite like this. Um, so she had some control issues, hence, uh, why we would, she liked

00:54:10.720 to burrow in the bed. She liked to be in the, you know, by the foot of the bed underneath the covers.

00:54:15.280 And it was, um, customary that they slept in bed with us, but boo having the issue she had, we have

00:54:22.700 to leave her in bed so that she wouldn't be encouraged to, to, to go to the bathroom. Um,

00:54:27.560 which would happen almost immediately once you put her down on the floor. And sometimes it happened

00:54:31.920 in bed too, but, um, but yeah, did you commit any kind of prank? Absolutely not. Absolutely not.

00:54:42.460 And, and, and why would that not be something you would do? First of all, I don't think that's

00:54:51.260 funny. I don't know what a grown woman does. I, I was not also in a pranking mood. I had, my life was

00:55:00.540 falling apart. I was, um, at a crossroads in my life that was really serious. And I had just been

00:55:07.740 attacked on my 30th birthday by my violent husband with whom I was desperately in love

00:55:14.340 and knew I needed to leave. It was, uh, not really a jovial time. And I don't think that's funny

00:55:21.460 period. That's disgusting. Okay. But here's the limo driver, but get it, Mark. Here's the limo driver.

00:55:29.880 I've been following this Canadian Debbie's really on this one for you.

00:55:33.820 Yeah. Sound like 12.

00:55:37.620 And did you have any discussions with Ms. Hurd on the way to Coachella that evening?

00:55:42.540 We had a conversation pertaining to the surprise she left in the boss's bed prior to leaving the

00:55:48.680 apartment. And when you refer to the surprise in the boss's bed, what are you referring to?

00:55:54.560 The defecation. And what did Ms. Hurd say about the defecation in Mr. Dove's bed?

00:56:00.000 A horrible practical jerk gone wrong.

00:56:06.140 You know why that's so bad is because this is another thing that you've got to, at certain

00:56:11.440 points you, I always say there are going to always be, I don't care what case it is. There's always

00:56:16.900 bad facts for you. They're just, so deal with the bad facts. Don't run away from them. Just deal with

00:56:24.300 them. And that's not one way to deal with them. And the reason why is because this, presumably,

00:56:30.360 unless you did some damage to this witness and showed he had an ax to grind, a bias,

00:56:35.280 or some reason that he wasn't being truthful, this is presumably a third party with no dog in this fight,

00:56:44.200 pun intended. And why do you get into this burrowing of Bo, or the Bo burrowing?

00:56:50.980 The little dog. Boo. Boo. Not Bo.

00:56:54.980 Maybe it'll, yeah, boo. I'm sorry. I was like the colloquial Bo. I used to have a Bo. But why?

00:57:03.820 I don't understand it. It's not a make or break fact. It's a bad fact. I agree. But you don't need

00:57:11.200 to go to the point where somebody will then argue from the jury instructions that somebody who was

00:57:17.240 materially false on one thing should be disbelieved on everything. That's not something.

00:57:22.360 You know, falseness in omnibus. You'll get an instruction to that. Like if you lied on one,

00:57:26.240 you could be a judged, a liar on all. And now we are going to show the poop because this is the poop

00:57:32.820 that was found in the bed that she's now claiming the little dog, the tiny little dog did.

00:57:37.180 I think it's a Yorkshire, Yorkshire Terrier. It's a human.

00:57:40.940 But wait, it's Boo or Bo?

00:57:43.340 It's Boo. Boo is, and it's a big poop and it's not a little dog poop.

00:57:50.400 It's toward the end of the bed too. Because like Boo, I guess.

00:57:55.060 That's where Boo burrows, I guess.

00:57:59.020 It's Boo burrows.

00:58:00.720 Now you're like a, I'm going to cross-examine you on your, the foundation for you to be a poopologist.

00:58:07.940 You know what? I'm going to get my son Thatcher out here and he will spend all day discussing poop

00:58:12.520 with you because he's eight and that's his wheelhouse. Anyway. Okay. So that's lie number one,

00:58:18.100 in my view. Okay. Here's the second thing. Let's get into it because there's testimony that she's

00:58:25.480 been hurt by him, that he's attacked her repeatedly. And what Johnny Depp's attorneys are trying to do

00:58:30.340 is show pictures of her right after the events at public events, looking fabulous and kind of

00:58:37.500 pressing her on. You had a broken nose here? Where's your broken nose? This is soundbite 13 on,

00:58:42.900 right after he allegedly attacked her the night before and broke her nose. Watch.

00:58:49.600 This is a picture of you and Mr. Depp at the event, the night after Mr. Depp allegedly whacked

00:58:55.340 you in the face so hard you thought he had broken your nose. He did whack me in the face and I did

00:59:01.220 think it broke my nose. And this is you the night after? Yes, it is. Just to confirm now that the jury

00:59:08.680 can see it. This is a picture of you at the same event, the night after Mr. Depp allegedly whacked

00:59:13.380 you in the face so hard you thought he broke your nose. This is a picture of me after he did whack me

00:59:20.000 in the face. The night after, right? Yes, it is. I believe it was the night after, yes.

00:59:28.340 Your nose doesn't appear to be injured in any of these pictures, does it, Ms. Hurd?

00:59:31.580 I'm wearing makeup. Your nose doesn't appear to be injured in any of these pictures, does it, Ms. Hurd?

00:59:39.380 That's why I'm wearing makeup. Right. And makeup covers up swelling, right?

00:59:44.620 Makeup will not cover up swelling. Ice will, though. Ice will cover up swelling?

00:59:50.280 Ice reduces swelling. Normally the swelling after that kind of injury is not as bad as you might

00:59:55.520 imagine. And for me, it wasn't that bad. I have a picture of it underneath the makeup. That's how I

01:00:01.420 know how to reference it. A picture you haven't produced or shown to this jury, right, Ms. Hurd?

01:00:06.420 I have so, I've produced everything. But you haven't shown it to this jury?

01:00:09.760 I would very much like to. It's not my job.

01:00:14.220 Hmm. You know, the, this, I, you get points for the Depp side wanting to go here. I understand that,

01:00:23.700 but going back to what my point is for somebody who's in Amber's kind of camp, if you will,

01:00:31.560 they're going to say, are you kidding me? Somebody, you can do make amazing things with

01:00:36.360 makeup. You can do, you can disfigure, make people look disfigured. You can make them look

01:00:41.300 tremendous, blah, blah, blah. It was, there was the ability there to have done some damage. I thought

01:00:49.060 it landed with, uh, with, without much damage to Amber on that.

01:00:54.440 Here's, here's what I thought was problematic for Amber on that. If she had said, um, and that's

01:00:59.100 right after you broke your nose, if Amber had said, yeah, I, I put ice on it to get rid of the

01:01:03.580 swelling. And then the makeup artist came in, um, that would have been better, but yeah, it was makeup.

01:01:08.980 And the, the, the lawyer got her makeup, hide swelling. And she's like, Oh no, ice does now

01:01:15.760 it's ice. No, because let me tell you as a public figure, you break your nose, you're very conscious

01:01:21.320 of it. And you're very conscious of how you're going to attack it. Cause this happened to me.

01:01:24.580 I did yoga when I was off between NBC and now, and my friend's like, man, get off the couch.

01:01:30.940 Come on, let's go do some yoga. So I'm like, all right, I'll do it. So we went to the yoga studio.

01:01:34.660 I'd never done yoga, Mark. And I decided to try the little, um, what's it called? It's like,

01:01:39.320 you're in a tripod, tripod, tripod. What's it called, Abby? Where you go? No, not downward dog.

01:01:45.140 No, not tree. It's called, oh shit. I can't remember. You can see I'm not a big yoga

01:01:49.000 official. Crow, crow, crow. I tried crow, Steve Krakauer for the win. And I, and I was like,

01:01:55.300 I can do this. I can do that. Bam down on my nose. I went, you could felt it crunch.

01:01:59.680 Blood started coming out. Meanwhile, the backstory of this, the woman was like, is there anybody new?

01:02:03.760 I'm like, oh crap me. What's your name? It's, it's Megan, Megan. Well, Megan, Megan. Oh God,

01:02:10.100 stop calling attention to me. And then I fucking broke my nose. So it was very humiliating. Believe

01:02:14.500 me. I remember everything about it. And the nose was swollen and you do bring it down with ice. And

01:02:19.480 if you had ever asked me, what'd you do? I would have said I put ice on it and then it was fine.

01:02:23.500 I didn't actually even do anything because it looked fine. It didn't look at a joint or anything like

01:02:27.300 that. Anyway, you remember. Did you use makeup? No, I didn't use makeup, but I did use ice because

01:02:35.280 it swelled. So ice brought down the swelling. And I just think it's separate and apart from my own

01:02:41.300 personal experience. That's what she would have said. And she only got there because she found

01:02:44.660 herself in a corner. And then she, she's smart. I actually thought Amber Heard was dumb. She's not,

01:02:48.440 she's smart. She's not, she's not dumb at all. She's very wily. I think you can tell whether that

01:02:55.420 plays or doesn't play will be yet to be seen. So this is a common theme. Uh, then they asked her,

01:03:01.220 this is soundbite 14 about Johnny allegedly having attacked her, gotten on her back or scratched her

01:03:06.960 back in some way. And then she went out for, I think it was a movie premiere, Mordecai in this

01:03:12.480 backless dress. Watch. You told this jury that on this occasion, Mr. Depp was

01:03:18.440 kneeling on your back. That's correct. In the closet. And you also told this jury that you wore

01:03:24.500 a backless dress to the Mordecai premiere that very same night. I did. And you testified that you

01:03:30.880 were checking for bruises in the car on the way back, on the way to the event to make sure that there

01:03:37.320 were quote, no visible marks, right? I was checking on my phone, um, after the event to see, to make sure

01:03:46.420 that nothing they couldn't see anything. Your testimony was that you were checking

01:03:52.480 in the car on the way to the event to make sure that there were no marks on your back.

01:03:59.600 Perhaps I misspoke or misunderstood. It was on the way back from, it was after I was concerned

01:04:04.760 after, you know, concerned that there would be marks in any photographs since we were being

01:04:10.200 photographed at Johnny's press event. And you didn't show this jury a picture of you in that

01:04:14.920 backless dress though, did you? I don't know what you mean, I'm sorry. You didn't show this jury a

01:04:22.020 picture of you at the Mordecai premiere wearing a backless dress, did you? I haven't had the

01:04:27.600 opportunity to. Okay. I assume you have it. I do. This is you in the backless dress at the

01:04:33.600 Mordecai premiere in Tokyo, right? That is correct. And you would agree that there are no bruises or

01:04:39.760 visible marks on your back in this picture. No, not that I could see.

01:04:46.060 What do you make of that one?

01:04:47.740 I thought that the cross, that was a good cross. I, if she said back or before,

01:04:54.540 she should have had an answer for that. They should have anticipated that.

01:04:59.080 I'm finding Johnny Depp's lawyer slightly annoying. I don't know if it's just me.

01:05:03.020 I have the same, I have the same problem and I, I wasn't going to confess it, but as long as you

01:05:08.080 bring it up, right? Like I do like, just keep in mind, the jury doesn't want to hear snippiness.

01:05:17.100 They don't know you, they don't like you yet. And they don't know whether you're representing an

01:05:22.520 abuser or not, but just like your goal should just be to be respectful. They know you don't

01:05:27.100 believe her. You don't have to show it in every, in every question, you know, they know you don't

01:05:31.780 just be respectful, be the picture of class. Yeah. There's a calculation also.

01:05:37.820 That we're going to use a woman to cross-examine the woman. And a lot of times I think that's

01:05:42.880 overblown. I, I, I, you know, if you've got, I always take the position that I like, it doesn't

01:05:50.880 do well for my, my associates, but I like to have one lawyer from start to finish, be the voice of

01:05:58.460 the case, be the people, the person, their guidepost to go take them through the trial and take them

01:06:03.680 through the narrative. I don't like it when you, when it looks calculated that you've got

01:06:08.440 a woman put up here because you're cross-examining a woman. I think that's to some degree, I think

01:06:13.940 a juror sees right through that. I mean, you've probably been in the position I have. Jurors

01:06:19.520 notice everything. They notice if you wear the same shoes repeatedly, they notice your suits. They

01:06:25.820 notice, you know, what you're carrying in your hands. So their jurors are very adept and they've got a

01:06:32.780 lot of time to focus in on the lawyers. So you shouldn't be. So for those who are watching,

01:06:38.620 who want to practice law or do practice law, you know, don't be too clever by half.

01:06:43.400 You want them to like you. That would be the ideal outcome for your client and you.

01:06:48.240 At least not hate you, right? At the very least.

01:06:51.240 And women are up against it on that too. Like are you that sniffy and kind of bitchy,

01:06:54.920 like that they're already ready to believe that about you. And so you, if anything, you want to

01:06:58.680 disabuse them. I'll give you an example. I mean, I had a, I have one of the lawyers that's worked

01:07:03.160 with me for almost 10 years. She was in court this morning and there was a homicide detective

01:07:09.640 who was giving her a tough time. And she said something to him about, well, why don't you go

01:07:15.300 find some real crime or something like that? And his retort was to her, well, I have, it's your hair.

01:07:21.120 And, uh, you know, that's a, they, there, there is that kind of culture that still exists.

01:07:27.540 Well, but the other thing is when you have a witness on the stand,

01:07:29.740 you want the jury to like you more than the witness on the stand as the lawyer. The goal is

01:07:35.740 not for the witness to make you look like the hateful one as the lawyer, like the less likable.

01:07:41.720 So that should be factored in, in your performance. It's fine. We're being a little hard on her,

01:07:45.960 but she's just kind of getting under my skin a little. Um, and I think she's doing a good job.

01:07:50.060 It's just tone. Right. And delivery. And as you say, attitude frames everything. I mean,

01:07:56.680 I've had cases where jurors have come up afterwards and discuss the fact that they still

01:08:02.680 tried to be fair, even though they despise the lawyer that I was up against. And, you know,

01:08:08.580 when I've asked the question, what took you so long? Why were you out so long? And they will said

01:08:12.960 they, they almost went overboard to try to compensate for the other lawyer who they disliked.

01:08:20.060 Oh, well, well, that's fortunate for the other guy, but, um, maybe not for you.

01:08:24.680 Yes. Um, okay. Now here's the next one. Uh, this is where she claimed he gave her two black eyes and a

01:08:32.260 split lip. And then she showed up on James Corden's show soundbite 15.

01:08:37.440 I thought I probably had a concussion and certainly that I had a broken nose.

01:08:43.960 There was a blood everywhere, blood all over the pillows. My head was bleeding from the ripped out

01:08:49.360 hair, chunks of hair on the floor all over the place, actually. So lines nine that I had a broken

01:08:57.240 nose. Do you recall giving that testimony, Ms. Hurd? Yes, exactly.

01:09:01.600 And you testified that you also had a busted lip from when Mr. Depp punched you.

01:09:07.260 That is, uh, correct. From December? Yes, that's correct.

01:09:12.040 You appeared on the James Corden show the day after this alleged incident, right?

01:09:15.840 I did.

01:09:17.140 And that was December 16th, 2015?

01:09:20.580 Yes, that's correct.

01:09:23.080 Let's please pull up a clip of your appearance from that evening.

01:09:26.160 You know, I'd be doing like a jump with a back bend and you can see this like graceful falling

01:09:31.240 and my hands are like.

01:09:34.520 That's a photo of you opening your mouth on the right, right?

01:09:38.440 That's correct.

01:09:39.800 And again, a larger view of the same photo on the bottom?

01:09:45.360 That's correct.

01:09:46.600 With a split lip.

01:09:48.560 You've seen pictures of it without makeup.

01:09:51.960 So you had a split lip when you were moving your mouth that way?

01:09:54.760 I sure did.

01:09:55.700 In those photographs.

01:09:56.940 Absolutely.

01:09:59.180 Okay.

01:09:59.780 And then she, like the two black eyes are not visible at all, but I think we have a picture

01:10:05.020 of what she says, you know, shows the damage to her eye.

01:10:09.660 She's got, yeah.

01:10:11.700 So here's one where her, you can see some swelling around her eye.

01:10:14.580 It certainly doesn't show two black eyes.

01:10:17.000 Right.

01:10:17.500 I'm not sure exactly what it shows.

01:10:19.440 Well, and I think, I think my guesses or my prediction, they're going to get up and

01:10:25.700 they're going to show that picture and redirect.

01:10:28.700 I'm sure they will.

01:10:29.700 But like, I, and I haven't seen all of Amber Heard's, hers photos, but if she's going to

01:10:33.460 start submitting like bloody face, bloody nose, bloody eyes, swollen eyes, black eyes,

01:10:38.320 that's ballgame.

01:10:39.720 You know, if she's got that.

01:10:40.680 But what I, what I see happening today, this is, this happened just this morning as we were

01:10:45.220 getting on the air, is Depp's lawyer was accusing her of manipulating the photos.

01:10:49.860 The, the, suggesting that she had increased the saturation on one version of the photo

01:10:53.720 to make her face appear more red and puffy.

01:10:56.840 She denied that, said she never touched the photo, but that, you know, unless she's got

01:11:02.020 gold in those photos, it's going to be a question for the jury on credibility.

01:11:07.020 Correct.

01:11:07.460 And, uh, uh, to some degree, I would assume that Depp's people have done some kind of analysis.

01:11:15.540 I mean, you can get experts who can tell you that they've either enhanced or embellished

01:11:20.780 the photos themselves or that they're not accurate.

01:11:23.880 Um, uh, and I, I suppose that may be coming too.

01:11:28.540 I mean, this is an endless trial, so who knows how many experts saw him.

01:11:33.420 All right.

01:11:33.560 Now here's the sort of moment that grabbed us the most.

01:11:37.480 She, you and I discussed this last Friday or whenever it was before they took the break.

01:11:41.500 She told a horrific story about an alleged rape that she says he committed on her with

01:11:47.040 a bottle.

01:11:47.540 And it was very emotional.

01:11:50.180 It was probably sort of the apex of her direct testimony.

01:11:54.140 And she got crossed on it.

01:11:56.180 I'm actually going to do it in reverse order.

01:11:58.120 I'm going to play the cross-examination and then I'll show you the original.

01:12:01.460 Um, so the audience can hear the difference.

01:12:03.780 Okay.

01:12:03.980 So here's the cross-examination on it.

01:12:05.540 It's Sot 21.

01:12:06.260 I felt this pressure on my pubic bone and I thought he was munching me.

01:12:15.600 And I remember that it's just not wanting to move because I didn't know if it was broken.

01:12:23.760 I didn't know if the bottle that he had inside me was broken.

01:12:29.380 I couldn't feel it.

01:12:31.280 I couldn't feel it.

01:12:32.100 I didn't feel pain.

01:12:33.940 I didn't feel pain.

01:12:35.320 I didn't feel anything.

01:12:36.080 I just remember it being in the bathroom.

01:12:39.380 I remember retching.

01:12:42.920 I remember the sound my voice was making.

01:12:49.880 I remember I lost control of my bladder.

01:12:56.560 I remember just retching.

01:13:01.300 I remember there was blood on the floor.

01:13:04.420 All right.

01:13:04.920 So we did play him in chronological order there.

01:13:06.580 That's her last week talking about the alleged attack.

01:13:09.640 Right.

01:13:10.200 That was her direct.

01:13:11.220 And now here comes the cross in part on that.

01:13:14.960 Testified to being bent over backwards on the bar.

01:13:17.340 Right.

01:13:18.180 That is correct.

01:13:19.540 And then feeling pressure on your pubic bone like Mr.

01:13:22.960 Depp was punching you.

01:13:24.420 Yes.

01:13:25.440 That's what I thought.

01:13:26.820 And then further down on page four, five, two, one.

01:13:30.560 And on to four, five, two, two.

01:13:34.180 You testified that you were concerned Mr.

01:13:36.280 Depp was using a broken bottle on you.

01:13:38.280 Yes.

01:13:38.560 That was my fear.

01:13:41.880 Okay.

01:13:42.300 That's what I remember feeling.

01:13:45.360 So folks poking some holes in that saying, that's what you thought?

01:13:51.080 It was your fear?

01:13:52.280 You're a lot less certain on cross exam than you were on direct.

01:13:56.460 Yeah, but she tamped it down to to follow up on your point.

01:14:02.580 I thought that the cross had a tone that once again, what was your word?

01:14:07.360 Slippy.

01:14:08.860 I you can get you can be effective without having to kind of inject yourself into it.

01:14:15.840 I don't know.

01:14:17.880 I feel like there's been separate apart from the lawyer.

01:14:21.620 She's doing a good job of slicing and dicing the direct testimony.

01:14:25.200 I mean, she is.

01:14:25.980 And we didn't even get to the part about the seven million Amber Heard's on tape saying she donated the entire seven million that Johnny Depp paid in connection with the divorce settlement.

01:14:34.880 And this trial has proven that that was a lie.

01:14:37.320 She hasn't done that.

01:14:38.280 It isn't true.

01:14:39.380 She's very wiggly on that.

01:14:40.860 I would just say overall, the first couple of days of cross.

01:14:45.200 She's very shaky.

01:14:46.380 I don't think she's I don't I don't feel as good about her testimony as I did last week.

01:14:51.700 And I think Johnny Depp is very much still in this.

01:14:54.760 I still don't think he's going to win his defamation case.

01:14:56.560 Do not think that I've never thought that.

01:14:58.520 But on the PR battle, he's definitely scoring points.

01:15:02.780 Oh, I think on the PR battle, he he is willing to some degree.

01:15:08.660 But at what cost?

01:15:10.920 But, you know, the cross, I think, is expected.

01:15:14.500 You and I talked about that, too.

01:15:16.100 You just you're never going to win going away.

01:15:18.960 I believe in any case, you you kind of take your victories where you can.

01:15:24.540 You chalk up your wins where you can.

01:15:26.900 And this has been a workman like cross examination so far.

01:15:32.280 But I don't think that you're changing any minds if you're in the jury.

01:15:36.680 If the jury was with her already, I don't think this is going to dissuade anybody.

01:15:42.920 You and I are the only ones left with the open minds.

01:15:45.400 Yeah, I was going to tell you we're on a we're on a very lonely island.

01:15:50.020 Good, good.

01:15:50.640 It's fine.

01:15:51.200 Well, we'll bring more of our open minds to the Sussman case and a word on Don Lemon right after this.

01:15:58.520 Don't go away.

01:15:58.980 Wanted to update you about the sexual assault case against CNN's Don Lemon.

01:16:08.040 His accuser, Dustin Heiss, has now walked away from his lawsuit, which was set to go to trial in June.

01:16:14.320 The announcement came two weeks ago, a few months after Dustin Heiss came on this program and described the alleged incident as follows.

01:16:22.420 I decided to approach him and I said, hey, Don, let me buy you a drink.

01:16:27.760 And before he could even respond, I looked at the bartender and I said, let me get two lemon drops.

01:16:33.340 And if anything, that was an attempt at humor.

01:16:36.100 Um, and I didn't mean anything derogatory or, you know, I wasn't trying to, uh, harass him or, you know, um, and Don looks at me and says, I'm just trying to have a good time.

01:16:48.740 And at that time I said, okay, I'm sorry.

01:16:51.340 And I walked away and I thought that was the end of it.

01:16:53.900 He comes around the bar and comes up to me and he says, um, pardon my language, but he says, do you like me?

01:17:01.040 Is that why you're fucking with me?

01:17:03.300 And I said, no, uh, I just wanted to say what's up.

01:17:06.800 And I was just like, what's this guy's problem.

01:17:08.800 And I look at my boss and I look back and he has his hand in his pants, rubbing himself aggressively.

01:17:14.940 And he shoves his two fingers up underneath my mustache, thrust my head back and says, do you like pussy or dick?

01:17:23.580 And he said it like two or three times after that.

01:17:25.800 And I just said, what the hell, man?

01:17:27.900 And I just ran out the back door.

01:17:29.320 Heiss in dropping the case issued the following statement, quote, after a lot of inner reflection

01:17:36.120 and a deep dive into my memory, I have come to realize that my recollection of the events

01:17:41.560 that occurred on the night in question when I first met CNN anchor Don Lemon were not what

01:17:46.800 I thought they were when I filed this lawsuit.

01:17:49.780 As a result, I am dropping the case.

01:17:52.920 It reads like a hostage statement.

01:17:55.000 Now, I have no reportable evidence for this, but I do have 10 years of legal practice under my belt, plus nearly 20

01:18:01.800 as a legal analyst and I can tell you that no plaintiff issues a statement like that, walking

01:18:07.000 away from a case against a public figure unless they've been paid to do so.

01:18:12.200 Lemon's lawyer, Caroline Polisi, denies it, saying, quote, Mr.

01:18:16.600 Lemon has never paid the plaintiff a dime.

01:18:19.280 Polisi later went even further, telling the website media, quote, not a single penny was

01:18:25.100 paid by Don Lemon or any of his representatives.

01:18:28.360 Well, I don't believe her.

01:18:30.260 I believe a check was cut to Dustin Heiss and that it was cut by a representative of Don

01:18:36.020 Lemon's and that Miss Polisi is misleading.

01:18:39.040 And it's not the first time.

01:18:41.140 Earlier in the case, after we interviewed Mr.

01:18:43.200 Heiss, Miss Polisi told the media that she had sent me a letter, quote, admonishing me for

01:18:50.100 our reporting on this case, for putting him on the air.

01:18:54.140 Typical bully tactic by a lawyer told toward the press.

01:18:57.080 But the thing is, it wasn't true.

01:18:59.040 It was a lie.

01:19:00.260 She never sent me a letter or any other correspondence.

01:19:03.100 It would have been fun to have one with her.

01:19:05.240 She released something to the media, apparently, in an effort to spin them and make herself look

01:19:11.080 tough.

01:19:12.360 Newsflash, lawyers sometimes lie to reporters.

01:19:16.280 She did it then.

01:19:16.880 And I believe she did it again when she said Lemon's reps paid nothing to Dustin Heiss.

01:19:21.820 What does she mean, by the way, by by Lemon's representatives, right?

01:19:27.100 How about Lemon's insurance company, Miss Polisi?

01:19:30.200 Did they cut a check?

01:19:31.480 Because that's typically how this would go.

01:19:34.520 Miss Polisi can clear this whole thing up very easily.

01:19:37.000 Will she certify under oath that it didn't happen?

01:19:39.480 Or why not just produce a declaration from Dustin Heiss that no money was paid to him in

01:19:44.900 connection with the settlement of this case?

01:19:46.880 Because Dustin notably does not make that claim in his hostage statement.

01:19:53.300 And if Dustin Heiss did not get paid off, if he really just threw in the towel after two years

01:19:59.220 of publicly lying about Don Lemon, where's the lawsuit against him?

01:20:04.160 He's besmirched Don Lemon's reputation.

01:20:06.740 Why would Lemon let him get away with that?

01:20:08.620 Why wouldn't he be pursuing a defamation claim right now?

01:20:13.040 Look, Heiss's case was far from perfect.

01:20:16.300 That's true.

01:20:17.020 Lemon's lawyer did a good job of banging up his witnesses at deposition, a fact we covered

01:20:21.800 at length on this show.

01:20:23.260 And after Heiss came on with us, a witness who saw the interview apparently came forward

01:20:28.280 to claim that he, the witness, is gay.

01:20:31.480 And he claimed that when he was in high school with Dustin Heiss, he says Heiss allegedly did

01:20:36.700 something to him very similar to what Heiss says Lemon did to Heiss.

01:20:42.180 I have no idea whether this man was at all credible, but obviously that would be a potentially

01:20:47.420 bad development for Heiss.

01:20:49.140 So no, Heiss did not have a slam dunk case.

01:20:51.440 But what incentive did Dustin Heiss have to settle this case on the eve of trial if he

01:20:57.520 was not paid off?

01:20:59.280 Let's imagine he really was lying the whole time.

01:21:01.680 Why throw away the game now?

01:21:03.400 Why not roll the dice at trial and see if you can convince a jury?

01:21:07.460 Dustin told a compelling story with disturbing detail.

01:21:12.100 Dustin had a very good lawyer.

01:21:13.580 He definitely had a shot at winning this case.

01:21:16.160 The guy had been through two years of depositions and motion practice and headaches and so on.

01:21:20.280 It would take a check to make one abandon that gamble pre-trial.

01:21:26.540 And that's what likely happened here.

01:21:28.920 So all in all, a victory for both sides.

01:21:31.700 Dustin issues a statement about misremembering in exchange for what was likely a fat check.

01:21:38.220 Lemon claims innocence and goes back to the news and it's done.

01:21:42.260 But that's not really the whole story because the media's role in this case deserves a word.

01:21:47.120 Lemon, through his same attorney, has attempted to paint himself as the victim of a dishonest press.

01:21:54.620 Miss Polisi first reminding us, of course, that Lemon is a gay black man, quote,

01:21:58.940 then whining that the reporting on this matter has been, quote,

01:22:02.780 a case study in unethical and uninformed reporting.

01:22:07.300 What a joke.

01:22:08.620 If anything, the media ran cover on this for Don Lemon.

01:22:12.380 There was a virtual blackout of these allegations.

01:22:15.120 The same reporters who gleefully and unquestioningly reported on obviously flimsy sexual harassment

01:22:23.240 allegations against Tucker Carlson and Sean Hannity in 2020 refused to even do a blurb on

01:22:30.380 the Lemon case, which, unlike the Fox case, had an eyewitness.

01:22:35.020 CNN ran to the air with that baseless allegation against the Fox anchors.

01:22:39.500 Brian Stelter giving it airtime.

01:22:41.860 Alison Camerata using it to declare Fox News, quote, rotten to the core, but not a peep

01:22:48.420 about the Lemon case from virtually anyone.

01:22:52.660 Remember what the media did to Brett Kavanaugh.

01:22:55.040 The press killed him.

01:22:56.420 They absolutely killed Kavanaugh.

01:22:57.780 Still has fallout for him to this day.

01:22:59.920 White conservative straight guy done.

01:23:01.580 But Lemon's case didn't fit their narrative.

01:23:05.420 Trump hating woke Don Lemon.

01:23:08.780 He's one of the good guys.

01:23:10.680 Lemon can't be gross because he's a left wing hero.

01:23:14.200 Tucker, Hannity, Kavanaugh.

01:23:15.960 Not so much.

01:23:17.960 This is why people hate the press.

01:23:20.180 It's agenda driven, identity driven.

01:23:22.620 It's partisan.

01:23:23.500 It's leftist.

01:23:24.780 It only presents the stories that align with its anchors worldview.

01:23:28.480 And it buries those that don't.

01:23:32.060 Thankfully, Americans are waking up and have learned to question the mainstream media.

01:23:36.160 They've learned about their inherent bias.

01:23:38.160 They've learned where to find other, more honest news sources.

01:23:42.040 And we're delighted to be one of them.

01:23:44.920 Back with me now, Mark Garagos.

01:23:47.440 Mark, what do you make of it?

01:23:49.280 Well, I was going to say it's an interesting take that you've got, especially side by side

01:23:56.120 with Chris Cuomo, side by side with all the other obvious problems at CNN.

01:24:02.300 As somebody who's been falsely accused and then had CNN kind of famously cut and run,

01:24:10.220 I've never really been a big believer in what goes on over there.

01:24:15.380 So I'll leave it at that.

01:24:17.600 I think that to some degree, they've tried to course correct.

01:24:23.100 You might remember, Megan, that last time I did about an hour and a half with you back

01:24:28.820 in, I forget when, December or something like that, I had kind of predicted, and I'll pat

01:24:35.300 myself on the back presciently, that there were going to be some big changes.

01:24:39.420 And sure enough, within six weeks, Zucker was gone.

01:24:42.200 And, you know, it had kind of become a cesspool over there.

01:24:49.200 And it's unfortunate.

01:24:50.320 I still have what I consider to be a lot of friends there.

01:24:53.920 But certainly, I don't know what had happened in that place.

01:24:57.780 Well, I mean, one of the problems in this case was CNN PR, the new guy running their

01:25:02.040 PR department after the old gal who was having her affair with Zucker was forced out.

01:25:06.400 The new guy is tweeting at me saying like, Don Lemon didn't pay anything.

01:25:10.440 Listen, buddy, you take a seat.

01:25:14.020 This isn't your damn case.

01:25:15.620 This is his case.

01:25:17.000 Your job.

01:25:17.680 We've seen this at so many news corporations.

01:25:19.900 Your job is to represent the people who work at CNN writ large, not Don Lemon, because he's

01:25:25.480 your star.

01:25:26.420 There may be people inside of CNN right now who have potentially been harassed by Don Lemon.

01:25:31.200 And what they don't want to see is you out there saying, no, let me defend Don Lemon.

01:25:36.080 No, he didn't pay anything.

01:25:37.480 You be quiet.

01:25:38.060 You're not his personal PR representative.

01:25:40.840 You're CNN's PR representative.

01:25:43.180 So you have to think about all the employees there and the reputation of the company and

01:25:46.900 not about him.

01:25:47.880 This happened at NBC.

01:25:49.440 It's happened at Fox.

01:25:50.520 These people need to remember what lane they're in, right?

01:25:53.480 And that they're not they're no one's individual PR hack.

01:25:57.000 One of the things that I thought you just said in your is dare I call it a monologue.

01:26:01.400 But the idea that that crafted statement did not encompass an insurance company as drafted.

01:26:11.500 And by the way, obviously, somebody is sued.

01:26:15.540 One of the first things they're going to do is tender it to an insurance company.

01:26:18.860 The insurance company is then going to either provide the lawyer or if there's a situation

01:26:23.840 with Cuba style counsel, they'll do that.

01:26:26.920 But the insurance company is going to be the one who traditionally on the eve of trial tries

01:26:32.740 to settle the case because for the cost of defense or maybe with some other bonus on

01:26:38.220 top of it.

01:26:38.820 And then you are free to say, I didn't pay.

01:26:42.380 My lawyer didn't pay, blah, blah, blah.

01:26:45.580 But you didn't say no check ever got transferred.

01:26:48.740 So exactly.

01:26:49.460 Let's let's see the sworn declaration from Dustin Heiss saying he didn't get any money.

01:26:53.600 Let's see that.

01:26:54.400 If I see that, I'll say, OK, I believe it.

01:26:57.140 Because a sworn declaration is an is an under oath document be easy enough for him to produce.

01:27:02.160 They could have negotiated that if he was just walking away.

01:27:04.620 Why not say we want this, too?

01:27:06.280 Right.

01:27:06.420 We want.

01:27:07.060 Here's what we want.

01:27:07.740 Well, I'd love to see you ask him some questions about his miss memory.

01:27:12.900 Oh, I mean, so first of all, I would love to have him back on.

01:27:15.880 But, you know, he's obviously signed a deal that doesn't allow him to speak.

01:27:21.080 But he that hostage statement, Mark, is the tell.

01:27:24.640 Right.

01:27:24.880 Like if you are just saying, I don't want to do this.

01:27:28.840 Never mind.

01:27:29.760 You just walk away.

01:27:30.520 You wouldn't give Don Lemon the hostage statement.

01:27:32.680 You wouldn't be writing something out like that.

01:27:34.960 They paid for that.

01:27:35.980 That's the only reason you would write those words about misremembering.

01:27:40.260 I suppose that the lawyer could say, look, the reason that we crafted that statement is because otherwise we were going to come after him.

01:27:48.660 We were going to go after him and we were going to counterclaim and countersue.

01:27:53.580 But the fact is, normally that would not happen.

01:27:57.020 You would have some kind of litigation immunity or litigation privilege and you would have to force it to trial, prevail.

01:28:05.440 And by the way, you would have to survive or not have survived a motion for summary judgment or some other kind of privilege shielding point in the litigation, which I'll say this in Don Lemon's defense.

01:28:23.320 His lawyer got a seventy seven thousand dollar judgment against Dustin Heiss for lawyer fees and so on related to discovery that that Heiss failed to produce.

01:28:35.740 I mean, in the defense, I could have been they could have said, we're not going to proceed on executing on the seventy seven grand.

01:28:42.880 But you've got to read this vehicle.

01:28:44.860 But I can see where that would be a possibility.

01:28:46.920 Yeah.

01:28:47.140 But that's not what happened.

01:28:48.820 I'm telling you, that's not what happened.

01:28:52.040 He would have gone to trial.

01:28:53.680 He would have rolled the dice that that money would have been standing there either way.

01:28:58.060 And it's much better for Dustin Heiss, who made a compelling witness to take the stand and say, this happened to me.

01:29:04.220 Take his chances with a jury because he could have been looking at a million dollar check.

01:29:07.660 And there's no way, no way Don Lemon is going to take the stand.

01:29:11.420 Trust me on that.

01:29:12.720 There was zero chance of it happening.

01:29:14.420 So this guy, Dustin Heiss, had every incentive to keep going.

01:29:18.840 And the way you stop a plaintiff who wants to keep going from keeping on is by cutting them a check.

01:29:25.280 Anyway, we'll see if they produce a Dustin Heiss affidavit.

01:29:28.640 And if they do, I'll come out and say, great.

01:29:30.240 OK, now we have it settled.

01:29:31.460 But the incurious media is what disgusts me.

01:29:34.620 Right.

01:29:34.900 It's like you they they ran with those Tucker Carlson allegations.

01:29:39.580 They were so flimsy.

01:29:40.980 They were thinner than a piece of paper.

01:29:42.500 And Sean Hannity was swept up in it to ran with it.

01:29:45.380 They they were gleeful.

01:29:46.760 So exciting.

01:29:47.840 Don Lemon crickets from the beginning.

01:29:50.740 Right.

01:29:51.140 In his case, developed problems.

01:29:52.640 Dustin Heiss's case definitely did.

01:29:54.440 And we pressed him on a lot of them.

01:29:56.540 But even from the beginning, there was a blackout mark because Don Lemon is not the same in their eyes as a Sean Hannity.

01:30:03.760 One's totally fair game and fun to attack.

01:30:06.960 And one has to be protected at all costs.

01:30:09.800 Well, I can't tell you the number of times that I've I've been bitching and moaning about this for 30 years, depending on who I'm defending and what their kind of their viewpoint is will depend on the coverage that they get.

01:30:26.520 And it's a very frustrating situation to be in.

01:30:29.280 I mean, one day you could be defending one person and that that ox that's getting gored is is unfairly done.

01:30:39.300 It's just a it's an awful situation.

01:30:41.780 It happens every day.

01:30:43.020 You do make a very good point, I think, in that people are starting to do what I've always called source criticism.

01:30:51.400 They're looking at where is this coming from?

01:30:54.100 Who is reporting this?

01:30:55.520 When you read a story, I know I do it almost unflinchingly now.

01:30:59.000 I'll look and see where the who the news outlet is before I kind of will be able to source it.

01:31:05.460 I know normally you would say that's an ad hominem or a fallacious way to look at things, but I think it's the more anthropological analysis, because if somebody is coming at you, you can't just get a unbiased take or at least an attempt to be unbiased.

01:31:22.320 Then there's a problem there.

01:31:24.880 Yeah, that's exactly right.

01:31:26.140 And it's like, I mean, trust me, I've done so many Me Too interviews, you know, accusers.

01:31:32.840 I interviewed Joe Biden's accuser.

01:31:34.800 I've interviewed Trump's accusers.

01:31:36.160 I've interviewed accusers on both sides of the aisle.

01:31:38.520 I've interviewed the accused.

01:31:40.280 I'm totally nonpartisan when it comes to these things.

01:31:43.020 I think people deserve a hearing affair.

01:31:44.980 It's sort of like we're doing with Amber and Johnny.

01:31:46.820 They deserve a fair hearing where you try to stay open minded.

01:31:49.960 And I can definitely see the points that Lemon's side was amassing in advance of this trial.

01:31:56.140 But Dustin Heiss also made a compelling witness.

01:31:59.180 And if you watch his whole interview on our show, it's the only one you'll see because nobody else would put him on the air.

01:32:04.480 You can make up your own minds.

01:32:05.560 I was going to say, when your producer pitched it, I had to remind you, I'm somebody who I would think has some interest in this.

01:32:12.420 I couldn't find that much on it.

01:32:14.480 Oh, nobody would report on it.

01:32:16.100 It was a total blackout of this guy's case, which was wrong.

01:32:19.120 The media doesn't know what the truth is.

01:32:21.760 Our job is to report on the facts as they develop and precious few even tribes.

01:32:26.740 The media, you know, I always hearken back to when I first met you 20 years ago, and I was complaining bitterly about what I had seen over 40 years with the media, that they had become going from questioning authority or that kind of mindset to cheerleaders for the prosecution, which is now morphed into cheerleaders for whichever side we happen to be on politically.

01:32:52.520 And that's a that's a very troubling trend.

01:32:56.120 It's it's a serious problem.

01:32:58.580 All right.

01:32:59.060 Before you go and I have to wrap, but I just want to tell the audience what happened in the Sussman trial today.

01:33:03.400 They had opening arguments.

01:33:05.180 There were at least a few jurors who are apparently at least in the pool.

01:33:08.960 I don't know if they made it on who are big Hillary Clinton and AOC donors.

01:33:12.320 This is a jury.

01:33:13.620 This is a town that's like 94 percent Dems and only like six, four, whatever percent Republicans.

01:33:19.980 And they are trying to make the case that this guy Sussman lied to the FBI and saying that that's what this is about.

01:33:27.280 The prosecutor saying this case is about privilege of a well-connected D.C. lawyer who lied to the FBI to inject the bureau into the 2016 presidential election.

01:33:36.280 The defense is saying it wasn't a lie and it wasn't a Hillary Clinton operation.

01:33:40.300 And if it had been, she never would have picked Sussman because everybody knew he was connected to her, which is an interesting prospect.

01:33:47.000 Mark, always a pleasure.

01:33:48.320 Thanks for being here.

01:33:49.080 Thank you.

01:33:50.440 Good to see you.

01:33:51.220 All right.

01:33:51.440 We'll do it again soon.

01:33:52.540 Tomorrow, we're digging into UFOs and UAPs, unidentified aerial phenomena.

01:33:58.960 After the first ever public congressional hearing today on the topic, Lou Elizondo is back with us.

01:34:04.060 Download the show in the meantime so you don't miss it.

01:34:06.000 Thanks for listening.

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01:34:21.960 So just click on the on-screen about what it was.

01:34:23.480 And I'm wondering if you don't miss it.

01:34:24.420 Sorry to see you when you're fascinated by and amistended on the topic.

01:34:25.120 Hello, welcome to the company.

01:34:25.500 Congratulations to TIM.

01:34:26.220 Thank you for listening.

01:34:26.880 So this is coming.

01:34:27.700 Theracially received a young guy.

01:34:28.300 I'm talking about flying here.

01:34:28.860 Thank you.

01:34:29.680 It's great.

01:34:29.920 Bye-bye.

01:34:30.560 Yeah.

01:34:30.760 It's good.

01:34:32.020 Thank you for listening.

01:34:32.660 Today, this is awesome.

01:34:32.800 I'm wondering, hey, hi.

01:34:33.300 I mean, I'll attract you sooner.

01:34:34.580 You're not going for rela Munst or me to be shooting.

01:34:36.040 It's a real reason.

The Megyn Kelly Show - May 17, 2022

Buffalo Blame Game, and Amber Heard Crossed on the Stand, with Jesse Kelly and Mark Geragos ｜ Ep. 323

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