The Megyn Kelly Show - Carlos Watson on Challenging Conversations, the State of the Media, and the Ingredients to Success ｜ Ep. 103

00:00:00.440 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:11.800 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:15.140 Today we have got Carlos Watson.

00:00:18.320 He's the CEO and co-founder of Ozzy Media, which is just killing right now.

00:00:23.640 He was a former CNN, MSNBC journalist who decided, this is not how I want to live.

00:00:30.420 This is not how I think the news media world should be, and I'm just going to go out there and do it differently.

00:00:35.720 And boy, has he.

00:00:37.160 He hosts The Carlos Watson Show, which is a podcast and on YouTube.

00:00:41.340 He's also a co-host with my pal Katty Kay of the BBC.

00:00:44.560 She's sweet and fun, and they do their own separate podcast together.

00:00:48.540 But listen, this guy is really interesting.

00:00:50.460 He's 51 years old, born and raised in Miami, parents were teachers.

00:00:55.580 He is a kid who openly says he was a black boy dubbed difficult in school,

00:01:02.260 who somehow managed to overcome the many challenges thrown his way to wind up at Harvard and then Stanford Law School.

00:01:10.060 And now he's a media executive doing really well.

00:01:13.160 He's interviewed everybody, everybody from Barack Obama to Bill Clinton, Ta-Nehisi Coates, Malcolm Gladwell.

00:01:18.420 I could go on. He gets people from all sides of the spectrum because he's open minded and he he's not he's not ideological.

00:01:26.720 He's not particularly partisan. He used to work in dem politics, democratic politics.

00:01:30.280 But and I think he definitely means more liberal, but you'll see for yourself that it's possible to to be in that place and to still be open minded to other ideas,

00:01:39.260 to have beliefs like I definitely don't share when it comes to the cops and systemic racism, possibly in other issues, but to still be open minded to discussion.

00:01:49.520 And I think we are that, too.

00:01:51.860 I think, you know, in a way, our shows are similar.

00:01:53.740 Anyway, you're going to love him.

00:01:54.760 We're going to get to him one second.

00:01:55.800 But but first this Carlos, how are you?

00:02:04.940 Good. How are you?

00:02:06.460 I'm great.

00:02:07.800 Where are you on this beautiful day?

00:02:09.600 I am in sunny California in the Bay Area.

00:02:13.420 Are you in New York or where are you?

00:02:16.240 New York City, baby.

00:02:17.620 And we finally have some good weather.

00:02:19.420 It's going to be 70 degrees today.

00:02:21.100 And I am so happy.

00:02:23.020 Nice.

00:02:23.460 Now, you know, I am a big baby because I grew up in Miami.

00:02:26.880 And so I don't even consider 70 degrees warm.

00:02:30.940 I'm like I'm the kind of kid who needs 75, 80.

00:02:35.160 This is what happens.

00:02:36.380 Now, I grew up in Syracuse and Albany and with my brother and sister and my family.

00:02:41.200 And my brother moved down to Atlanta like 20 years ago.

00:02:44.100 And now you'd think he'd still have some Syracuse boy inside of him.

00:02:47.800 Gone. 0.99

00:02:48.640 He is such a wuss. 1.00

00:02:50.080 The blood just got thin really quickly. 1.00

00:02:53.300 Yeah.

00:02:53.620 No, it's funny.

00:02:54.660 I remember growing up in Miami and then I went to live in Boston at one point.

00:03:00.560 And I was like putting on every sweater anybody had ever created.

00:03:04.560 I looked like a big – I don't know if you remember on the Cosby Show, they used to have all those colorful sweaters.

00:03:10.140 I looked like a big Cosby Show ad.

00:03:12.660 And then two, four, three years later, I found myself walking outside in, you know, high 50-degree weather.

00:03:19.500 And I thought, okay, okay, I'm getting a little bit better.

00:03:22.780 So not anymore though.

00:03:24.300 California.

00:03:24.700 So now I know you were living in New York for a while.

00:03:29.020 Yes.

00:03:29.300 Yes.

00:03:29.660 And I understand you left New York when your mom got sick.

00:03:33.120 Your mom got terminal cancer as I understand it.

00:03:36.520 Yeah.

00:03:36.880 And you went to take care of her?

00:03:38.580 Was she still in Miami at the time?

00:03:40.920 No.

00:03:41.340 So, you know, we grew up in Miami.

00:03:44.160 My folks had met in New York.

00:03:46.120 Beautiful story about that as my mom was getting on a ship. 0.97

00:03:48.900 And then they had moved down to Miami ultimately where we grew up.

00:03:55.360 And then I had moved them to the Bay Area.

00:03:59.560 And when I started doing television, I left the Bay Area and went to New York.

00:04:03.680 And I – Megan, I was home once in the Bay Area.

00:04:08.060 I was about to meet my friend, a really good friend named Jude for breakfast.

00:04:11.660 And my mom called me and she said, hey, can you come pick me up?

00:04:15.760 And you probably have had this, Megan, with people in your life, maybe even your kids,

00:04:19.220 who you just know when they ask you for something that's just completely out of the ordinary,

00:04:23.040 even though it's a really simple ask.

00:04:24.660 And it's kind of hard to explain.

00:04:26.120 But my mom, it just was not like her to say, can you come pick me up?

00:04:32.220 And I just had the worst pit in my stomach.

00:04:35.340 And so I went and I picked her up.

00:04:36.980 She was supposed to be doing physical therapy that morning.

00:04:39.140 And I went to pick her up.

00:04:40.760 And she's like, I don't feel well.

00:04:42.320 And we went to the doctor and – but that, you know, that day changed her life.

00:04:50.020 And, you know, by implication changed, you know, all of our lives.

00:04:55.160 And so I moved out to take care of her.

00:04:57.900 And we ended up getting more time than people ever thought that she would get.

00:05:03.240 And so I'm always grateful, even though I wish – you know, I wish she was still here

00:05:07.920 and I wish things had happened differently.

00:05:09.300 I'm glad that I got that time with her.

00:05:11.260 Mm-hmm.

00:05:12.440 Oh, my gosh.

00:05:13.260 It's like I feel for you.

00:05:15.040 I'm my – I lost my dad when I was young.

00:05:17.800 But my mom, you know, she's getting older.

00:05:19.480 She's going to be 80 this summer.

00:05:21.580 And I think those kind of worries, you know, about losing somebody that important to you,

00:05:28.120 like that's in a field of its own.

00:05:30.500 And I will confess, we've always joked in my family because I've never been like a kind of a caretaker.

00:05:35.880 You know, like I'm a mother.

00:05:37.780 So to some extent I am.

00:05:40.100 Right, right, right.

00:05:41.160 I never had that natural like, oh, she's going to be a caretaker, Jean.

00:05:45.820 You know, you'd be shocked to hear.

00:05:48.500 And so it was always kind of understood in my family that – and we'd laugh.

00:05:51.940 My mom would laugh about this too, that like when my mom got old and gray, I was going to have to pay for whatever assistance she needed. 1.00

00:05:58.020 And my sister was going to have to actually do it. 1.00

00:05:59.740 And my brother would send flowers and get all the credit.

00:06:01.420 That is excellent.

00:06:04.880 That is – you know what?

00:06:06.480 As the brother of three sisters, it sounds like your brother – it sounds like you've got – there are two women and one guy.

00:06:13.200 That would be a brotherly move that I've seen before.

00:06:16.700 So that's good.

00:06:17.920 Okay, that's good.

00:06:18.800 You've got what?

00:06:19.600 Three brothers and sisters?

00:06:20.620 Three siblings?

00:06:21.980 I've got three sisters, one older, two younger.

00:06:25.320 And so I was always outnumbered a little bit.

00:06:29.280 But I got a good squad.

00:06:30.440 I ended up with a good crew.

00:06:32.540 This is why you can talk to anyone.

00:06:36.380 I got trained, right?

00:06:38.420 I got properly trained.

00:06:40.200 Yeah, yeah.

00:06:41.020 If you wanted to be heard in your family, you had to learn the art of conversation when you're living with so many women. 1.00

00:06:46.520 Well, and not only that, so many women who we didn't share the same interest. 0.98

00:06:51.320 And like trying to convince my sisters – we had one big TV – to let that TV be on the playoffs, NFL playoffs or what have you, that was the ultimate art of negotiation.

00:07:02.920 So, yes, I definitely learned a thing or two about – I always say how to compromise and how to surrender gracefully.

00:07:10.500 That's what I learned.

00:07:11.060 I'm still working on that, both of those things.

00:07:14.580 Now, walk me through how a kid from what you describe as a relatively humble, relatively modest home outside of Miami grows up to get into Harvard, goes to Stanford Law School, and winds up running a big media company.

00:07:32.460 I mean, your company is just killing it right now.

00:07:35.500 So, how did you make that happen?

00:07:38.220 You know, I – it's funny.

00:07:41.120 I mean, I started with some good ingredients that I've heard you say before that you also benefit from.

00:07:48.660 I had good parents, Megan.

00:07:50.680 I didn't appreciate that at the time, and certainly they will tell you that I didn't always show my appreciation as a kid.

00:07:56.000 But when all is said and done, while no one's perfect, like I ended up with a really good deal, and I think having good, creative, loving parents who are generally positive people I think was a big help.

00:08:12.140 And that was especially true when I had some rockiness early on.

00:08:16.160 I had some issues in school and some other things.

00:08:19.200 I had a very bad accident when I was 11.

00:08:24.860 They thought I'd never walk again.

00:08:26.200 In fact, I didn't walk from 11 to 14.

00:08:28.400 And when I showed up for the first day of high school, all the kids who knew me from junior high were like, Carlos Watson can walk?

00:08:35.740 Because they'd never seen me walk.

00:08:37.920 They'd only seen me on crutches.

00:08:39.440 And I was always – it was always one phrase, that boy Carlos Watson on crutches.

00:08:45.220 Oh, my gosh.

00:08:46.000 So – but I think having – you know, lots of things went my way.

00:08:52.220 But I think among the biggest were definitely my parents.

00:08:56.540 My mom was an older mom, which she said made her a better mom. 0.73

00:08:59.980 So I think that that was definitely a big piece.

00:09:00.860 I'm afraid to ask this, but what does that mean?

00:09:04.600 You know what?

00:09:06.520 So in her day, being a mom, she got into the game late.

00:09:11.080 So she had four kids.

00:09:13.440 My parents got married late.

00:09:15.960 And my mom had four kids between 36 and 41, which today I think would be like between 44 and 48 or 44 and 49.

00:09:24.360 So, you know.

00:09:25.540 No, for sure.

00:09:26.140 In the 70s, that was considered old.

00:09:28.720 Yeah.

00:09:29.540 I'm saying I had my kids at 38, 40, and 42.

00:09:32.300 But even today, that is considered old, not by society, but by your eggs.

00:09:36.320 Your eggs are like, uh-uh.

00:09:38.080 We retired a few years ago.

00:09:39.240 And were all of your births healthy?

00:09:43.280 Did everything go well with all of your kids?

00:09:45.020 Everything's fine.

00:09:45.300 So I used IVF for all three of my kids and wound up having a C-section.

00:09:50.740 I had to have a C-section on the first.

00:09:52.060 So for the second two, I was like, I'm just going to go for it.

00:09:53.820 I want to keep what I can't keep intact is going to stay intact.

00:09:56.860 Sorry, TMI.

00:09:58.740 But yeah, I had to use IVF.

00:10:00.520 But although it just, this also may be TMI, but it wasn't because my eggs were actually fine when I started to, you know, try to have children.

00:10:08.140 But this is really a lot of information.

00:10:10.440 Carlos, forgive me.

00:10:11.200 But I have this thing called a T-shaped uterus. 1.00

00:10:14.260 You know how a uterus is usually shaped like kind of an upside down triangle?

00:10:18.460 Mine is like skinnier than it's supposed to be.

00:10:20.660 And so we were having trouble conceiving.

00:10:22.560 And of course, in the beginning, it was like, oh my God, I'm not going to be able to have children.

00:10:26.540 Meanwhile, I'd spent most of my 20s and 30s being like, I don't want children.

00:10:29.820 I'm just going to kill it professionally.

00:10:31.020 And then when you meet the right person and, you know, especially as a woman, you're like, I must have a child. 0.99

00:10:37.100 And I'm like, what the hell is a T-shaped uterus?

00:10:40.240 Well, I like skinny, skinny uterus. 1.00

00:10:43.240 That sounds good.

00:10:44.300 But no, anyway, found the right doctor.

00:10:47.280 He said it's no problem.

00:10:48.220 Just had a woman with a T-shaped uterus who just had twins. 0.95

00:10:50.800 Don't worry.

00:10:51.520 It's just, you know, may be a little harder for you.

00:10:53.440 Anyway, that's a long-winded answer.

00:10:55.080 But I do try to mention it sometimes because anybody else who's out there, because there's precious little on the internet about that issue.

00:11:00.820 So, like, when you Google it, you're like, I'm the only one.

00:11:03.240 I'm deformed and I'm never having kids.

00:11:05.020 I did.

00:11:05.860 It was later in life.

00:11:07.000 I used modern medicine.

00:11:08.260 It worked out great.

00:11:09.280 And your mom, back then, she would have had to do it, you know, the old-fashioned way because they didn't have IVF back in the late 60s, 70s. 1.00

00:11:16.500 Not at all.

00:11:17.500 And, you know, she was fortunate to have.

00:11:21.780 But C-section, indeed, I was the first of several C-sections.

00:11:29.860 And, you know, I like, though, that you talked about the T-shaped uterus and the whole journey to pregnancy because it's funny.

00:11:38.780 I started having lots of conversations with people about this in part because I had several younger sisters who have been thinking about this.

00:11:46.720 And it is such a positive thing, not just for women, but for men, too, to hear this conversation and for people to get information, to get hope.

00:11:59.560 And I think your girl, did Erin Andrews tell me that she was talking to you about this?

00:12:03.960 Yeah.

00:12:04.340 Yeah, yeah.

00:12:04.880 I saw that you talked with her recently.

00:12:06.400 I love her.

00:12:07.200 Yeah, yeah.

00:12:08.680 And she was telling me about her journey and kind of going through this and kind of needing other people to kind of talk through.

00:12:17.600 And anyhow, yeah.

00:12:19.400 So, yeah, so late-in-life mom was part of the ticket.

00:12:24.580 And I had some really good teachers.

00:12:26.340 In fact, my fifth and sixth-grade teacher, who probably was the most instrumental teacher in my life, Mrs. Trencher, Ruth Trencher,

00:12:34.020 just wrote me the other day.

00:12:36.760 And I still call her Mrs. Trencher, even though she writes Ruth Trencher, but I could never call her.

00:12:42.380 Oh, no.

00:12:42.860 I don't – I could never call her anything other than Mrs. Trencher.

00:12:46.520 Yeah.

00:12:46.820 No, same.

00:12:47.840 Yeah.

00:12:47.940 And is she listening?

00:12:49.180 Is she watching?

00:12:49.840 Is she a fan now?

00:12:50.540 You know, I believe she is because she does – she checks in on me and she writes stuff and I can tell.

00:12:56.500 And she was the – you know, she was the most observant teacher.

00:13:01.060 And she had all these kids.

00:13:03.260 And I was probably not – I definitely was not the best-behaved kid.

00:13:07.640 I was the worst-behaved kid in her class.

00:13:09.360 I love – I've read that about you.

00:13:11.320 I want to know more about that.

00:13:12.300 Yeah.

00:13:12.320 But keep going.

00:13:12.920 Yeah.

00:13:13.640 Well, she just – but she – you know, she seemed to keep her eye on everyone.

00:13:17.240 And in the class, I would think I was getting away with stuff because she would be like all the way on the other side of the class. 0.99

00:13:22.200 And I can still hear her voice.

00:13:24.080 Carlos Watson, please go up and put your name on bad study because she had this board, good study and bad study.

00:13:30.220 And I was always on bad study.

00:13:32.760 And I would always think she wasn't looking.

00:13:35.060 She wasn't paying attention.

00:13:35.920 So that's exactly what I could do, whatever I was going to do, be my Dennis the Menace self.

00:13:40.620 And she would just call me out. 0.83

00:13:43.660 And so it's like she had extra eyes.

00:13:45.160 She would have been a good quarterback in football, I think. 0.99

00:13:48.060 She had, you know, eyes on the side of her head.

00:13:50.720 She was probably in exactly the right profession, as a matter of fact, right?

00:13:53.600 That's what you need as a mom, as a teacher. 1.00

00:13:56.840 So I know – I read that they sent you to a psychologist for a learning disability.

00:14:02.680 That doesn't – I don't – did you actually have a learning disability or what was that about?

00:14:06.920 No, so, you know, it was a multilayered story.

00:14:11.800 So I had a wonderful big sister who – so I started getting in trouble as soon as I got to kindergarten.

00:14:19.320 Like as soon as I got to kindergarten.

00:14:20.700 You wasted no time.

00:14:21.420 For elementary school.

00:14:22.680 Wasted no time.

00:14:24.220 They would kick me out.

00:14:25.580 I'd get sent to the principal's office.

00:14:27.600 They would ask my mom to come pick me up.

00:14:30.040 And in those days when there were no cell phones and women were just beginning to take on more white-collar professional jobs, for her it was super embarrassing because no sooner did she drop me off at school and gone to work, then there was a message waiting for her. 0.94

00:14:45.840 Come pick up your son.

00:14:47.500 And then what do you do with this kid?

00:14:49.760 Do you know what I mean?

00:14:50.460 And then she would bring me to work and everyone was like, why is your kid at work?

00:14:54.540 Like this was not a normal thing in the 70s.

00:14:57.020 And so I would get into a lot of trouble.

00:14:59.400 And part of it started because my older sister – I was like Batman to her Robin.

00:15:05.080 We would do everything together.

00:15:06.680 And when she went off to kindergarten, she wanted to bring me with her.

00:15:11.900 And she kept trying and she would try all these different ways.

00:15:14.960 And she would tell me to get dressed and get ready to get in the car.

00:15:17.920 They wouldn't let me in with her.

00:15:19.640 And then finally after a couple weeks, she decided, okay, if they won't let me bring him to school, I'm going to bring school to him.

00:15:24.920 Well, Megan, you know as a mom, there's no better teacher than a big sister who loves you, right?

00:15:30.740 Like you're not going to get a better teacher to teach you how to read, how to do your numbers, all that stuff.

00:15:37.480 So I got two years of the best homeschooling as soon as she got home every day.

00:15:42.540 So when I got to kindergarten, they would say, what's two plus two?

00:15:45.460 I would think that was a joke because I was like, well, we did that already.

00:15:48.840 You know what I mean?

00:15:49.300 We did that half a lifetime ago.

00:15:50.880 Robin taught me that.

00:15:51.600 Correct.

00:15:52.960 So I would say yellow.

00:15:54.700 And they didn't think two plus two equaling yellow was very funny.

00:15:58.520 So they would ask me to leave the building.

00:16:01.700 And so and once you start to become the bad kid that happened, and I think even more so, and there are lots of studies on this, I think particularly for a lot of black boys, unfortunately,

00:16:13.580 and certainly in my era in the 70s and 80s, you could easily like end up getting pigeonholed and getting down a bad road.

00:16:25.140 And so they would start to say, well, what is wrong with this kid?

00:16:28.780 And yada, yada, yada.

00:16:29.860 And there was a young Ph.D. student, Carol Bernstein, who was doing her Ph.D. at the University of Miami.

00:16:37.660 And as the story goes, she was in the teacher's lounge, and she was doing her Ph.D. on like disruptive kids.

00:16:44.360 And she heard all the teachers talking about this bad boy, Carlos Watson.

00:16:48.180 And she thought, oh, my goodness, he would be like the perfect example for my dissertation.

00:16:55.160 And so when the new year came, she met this bad boy, Carlos Watson, who all the teachers didn't want in their class and were worried about.

00:17:02.840 And she was the one who came to my parents and said, you know, I actually think he is probably just a bored, bright kid.

00:17:12.480 You should go get him tested at the University of Miami where she was studying.

00:17:15.880 And there was a child psychiatrist, Dr. Shogi, who, you know, normally it was a very expensive thing to have a kid test it.

00:17:25.400 And God bless him, Dr. Shogi or his kids, if you're listening, thank you.

00:17:29.660 He kind of waved it and said, you know, let me, you know, let me test him.

00:17:34.480 And, you know, they came back and said, you know, I do think he doesn't have a learning disability.

00:17:39.320 I think instead he's a bright kid who's bored.

00:17:41.820 Let's see if you guys can challenge him a little bit more.

00:17:44.120 And that actually really helped me, Megan, because you can imagine as parents, you know, the last thing you want to hear is this early in the game.

00:17:53.960 Your kid is off track. Right.

00:17:56.020 And yeah. And you're hearing that every day and you're having to go to school to pick him up and you're worried and you're like, oh, my goodness, what's going to happen?

00:18:03.860 And so to finally see a little bit of light that maybe there is something better for your kid here was a big relief.

00:18:11.500 And to my parents credit, they like latched on to that and they began to say, hey, is there a different school environment where he could do better?

00:18:18.240 Or are there other things we can do to make sure that we channel his energy well?

00:18:23.000 Wow. That's amazing. And a testament to your parents paying attention when the information came in, when you told me the story, when you mentioned Carol, I got I got a chill because you could just see this is like the turning point in your story.

00:18:35.900 In the story of bad boy, Carlos Watson, who turns out to be this brilliant kid, as as the credentials and your life, your life's work would prove.

00:18:44.420 And it reminds me of my friend Nancy Armstrong, who's amazing. She's coming out in the fall.

00:18:49.300 She's going to come on then with a documentary on ADHD.

00:18:53.580 That doesn't sound like you had ADHD, but it's a lot of the kids who struggle with this get get labeled as just problematic.

00:19:00.480 They get kicked out of the classroom. People don't want to deal with them. They're annoying.

00:19:03.640 And if we if we look at it differently, like at the number of stars and academics and like Thomas Edison, all these people have had ADHD or so we think it can be turned.

00:19:15.700 Right. If it's recognized, you have somebody who cares about you intervene.

00:19:18.940 It can be turned into an asset. And a kid who was just thought problematic can be seen in a totally different lane and achieve endless, endless ends.

00:19:28.040 Well, you know, the other piece of it that my mom said as well, she got because I talked to her about it later on in a really grateful way.

00:19:35.720 And and it was interesting because I think about some of the kids I grew up with.

00:19:40.540 We lived in kind of a working class neighborhood. And and so I was able to see very clearly thinking about my next door neighbors kind of just very different routes.

00:19:52.800 I could have gone down. Megan, I asked my mom, I said, you know, why, you know, why did you do the things you did?

00:19:59.320 She said, you know what? She said it was good that I was an older mom.

00:20:02.360 She said, if I'd been a younger mom and I was getting that much criticism and it was that much of a struggle and I was having to leave work all the time, she said I would have gotten overwhelmed.

00:20:11.400 But she said the fact that I was an older mom made me thankfully not give up and navigate the system better.

00:20:18.680 And so I often think about that, too, you know, back to your story about, you know, coming to motherhood later, that probably, you know, so many different benefits to having some of that life experience.

00:20:30.120 Mm hmm. That's true. I mean, I do think it's easier to keep your temper.

00:20:33.680 You know, it's like, yeah, this is really worth getting getting upset about.

00:20:36.960 And also, like you, I was thinking about it with respect to covid, because I think some people some people share too much with their children.

00:20:45.820 They overshare and the children don't need to be frightened about covid, frankly, about school shootings, about any of that stuff.

00:20:53.280 They they don't they have enough to worry about. 0.98

00:20:55.320 And so I do think sort of being older, you've seen more, you know, as Brit Hume used to say, your give a shit meter changes and for the better, you know, for the better. 0.91

00:21:04.940 And so you telegraph less worry and I don't fright about life. 0.96

00:21:10.500 And what is a dangerous society than you otherwise would have?

00:21:13.680 Coming up next, I'm going to ask Carlos about what John McWhorter said.

00:21:17.060 He thought the top four prescriptions for improving some of our inner city communities, some of our inner city black communities would be remember that with McWhorter the other day.

00:21:25.840 So I'll put him to Carlos. And he's actually got some interesting additions for that list.

00:21:30.640 Stand by.

00:21:31.080 What you said about your mom is reminding me, you know, we had John McWhorter on the show recently and we were talking about, you know, forgive the term, the black community, because I realize there's not really a black community.

00:21:43.860 There's not a white community. I don't know what the hell that means.

00:21:45.460 But, you know, there are some problematic items, things that we need to talk about inside inner city Chicago and places like it.

00:21:52.700 And he said four things. And I'm just going to say them quickly because he was much more articulate than this.

00:21:58.620 He said, end the war on drugs. If there were no black market and hard drugs, he said there would be a revolution in the black community.

00:22:05.580 Normalized trade school. He said it's absurd to keep telling black America that the ideal is to go to four years of college and pretend like you like Shakespeare. 0.86

00:22:14.120 Hey, that applies to more than just black America. Just FYI.

00:22:16.480 Um, improve reading education. He's a linguistics guy, so he wants he wants reading to be taught with phonics.

00:22:22.980 He thinks it's really important. And then he said broaden access to contraception to make family planning much more accessible.

00:22:29.200 So, I mean, you know, you talk about sort of how you how you pulled yourself up and your mother's example and attention to you.

00:22:37.540 What do you think of that? And what do you think about sort of this?

00:22:40.880 I mean, there's a lot of there's a lot of young black boys who are labeled problematic, who do not wind up at Harvard and Stanford Law School.

00:22:49.000 Yeah, I a number of the things he said there I like and I think makes sense.

00:22:55.380 I think the drug point that that's interesting about about what revolution would ensue if that were the case.

00:23:04.580 Um, uh, what was the second thing he said? He said trade school, um, you know, I would tweak that a little bit because I think they're more modern versions of trade school,

00:23:15.440 um, whether that's computer coding academies, right, or or other sorts of things.

00:23:20.940 So I would I would I would think about what it meant.

00:23:23.660 But but but but the notion that a four year college is an option, but not the only option, um, I think makes sense, by the way, not just in inner cities, but broadly speaking, I think there are absolutely many ways forward.

00:23:37.320 And, and, and I no longer think also that we will just launch, I think that most of us will have many different careers, right.

00:23:45.520 And so thinking about schooling, not just as something you do from five to 21 or five to 22, but that there's going to be continuous learning and continuous resets and continuous opportunities to pivot.

00:24:01.140 I mean, look at you going from the law to broadcasting to, you know, I would call you an entrepreneur now.

00:24:10.300 Um, I like that.

00:24:11.060 I like how it makes a sound.

00:24:13.280 Yeah, but but but I but I think that you've got to keep learning in order to do that.

00:24:17.740 So so I think about that.

00:24:20.040 Um, uh, I'm a big believer in reading, although, you know, what's interesting, Megan, is we're entering an audio world where,

00:24:29.380 um, audio technology is, is going to change the way your kids kids live, um, where people will just be able to speak things out loud.

00:24:42.280 I mean, you already do that with what you want to watch on TV, probably, right?

00:24:45.380 Like your remote probably is audio enabled.

00:24:48.620 You may be someone who uses Siri or Alexa a lot, and that's going to ramp up dramatically.

00:24:55.180 So that's, that's an interesting thought.

00:24:58.120 Probably it also will allow different kinds of reading.

00:25:02.260 Um, you know, I think it's funny.

00:25:05.400 One of the things I've been talking to folks a lot about is, um, what would happen if we thought not only about some of the challenges of the moment,

00:25:12.580 but we thought about the next 250 years of America, and if we had effectively a new constitutional convention,

00:25:19.420 and if we broaden the people who were at the constitutional convention, uh, as we would, uh, this time around,

00:25:27.160 meaning that in addition to Washington and, you know, Jefferson and Hamilton, you had Kelly and Coates and Gladwell and Lakshmi and all sorts of folks who were part of the conversation.

00:25:39.000 And what kind of creative things would we think about in a world that will have robots and will have AI, right?

00:25:44.380 And we'll have all these things.

00:25:46.020 And so I think that that's my long way of saying, if we want to make big, dramatic, social and economic, uh, change and improvement,

00:25:57.960 we have more tools in this moment than we've like ever had, right?

00:26:02.880 And, and we could make a lot of changes in communities, including the black community.

00:26:07.660 And some of the things John said, I think are part of it.

00:26:10.500 I don't know that I would make that all of the things that, that I would do that.

00:26:15.140 I do think that there are real issues around, um, uh, uh, uh, um, uh, what are some of the other things I think that I would do that I think would make a substantial difference?

00:26:27.420 I, for example, um, uh, would have a thousand new schools across the country that were super high quality and that were super open to a wide variety of people.

00:26:40.620 I would, um, uh, I would think, uh, more ambitiously about, um, facilitating entrepreneurship, meaning, um, more bank loans and even more than what the SBA does to really stimulate that.

00:26:56.460 And I would have not only, um, accelerators or kind of startup boot camps in wealthy places like Silicon Valley, but I'd have them in lots of other places like East St. Louis and, um, uh, and other parts of the country and, and create businesses out of, out of there and facilitate that probably a more ambitious, aggressive ways.

00:27:16.900 And I think we sometimes do, uh, even when we say we're going to do that.

00:27:20.360 Is it Kevin Hart who's doing, he's doing something like this.

00:27:23.700 I think he's going, um, to underserved communities and trying to explain to young people how they can get their own business started, how they can get a loan, like to make it simple, to put it in very simple terms.

00:27:35.160 Because, I mean, I'll tell you, even, even I, as a law school graduate, and it's overwhelming when you try to deal with the paperwork, you're like, how do I set up a company?

00:27:42.900 How do, where do I start?

00:27:44.400 Who do I contact?

00:27:45.480 You know, like it, it can be overwhelming to the point where you're like, and I'm out.

00:27:50.100 Right.

00:27:50.420 And, and, and, and by the way, it's not for everybody, but, but, but, but yeah, I'm definitely a believer in, in not only breaking it down, but then having almost like a, a team and a collective.

00:28:03.020 I mean, you see people do that, Megan, when people start running, right?

00:28:06.240 They do running clubs and get people going and when they're going to do their first marathon or what have you.

00:28:10.420 And I, and I would treat a startup kind of similarly, which is, which is, I would not only give people advice, but I'd put them like on a team of other entrepreneurs who are all, you know, trying to break through.

00:28:23.640 But, but, but Megan, I, I do, you know, I feel strongly that we can do better and that it doesn't necessarily have to take a generation or two or three.

00:28:35.640 And, and I would love to see our leaders just be way more ambitious.

00:28:42.840 Like I live in Silicon Valley and I see companies like Zoom and DoorDash and Uber and Tesla and Airbnb, all companies that sounded ridiculous.

00:28:53.820 I'm sure the first time someone told someone about them, right?

00:28:56.520 Like, wait, you're going to rent out rooms in your house to random strangers over, you know what I mean?

00:29:01.800 Online or wait, wait, you're going to compete against the taxi industry that no one knows how to crack.

00:29:07.440 And people literally are shooting at each other over medallions.

00:29:10.800 And, and so if we can be that ambitious there, I'd love to be that ambitious about, um, about social policy in whatever dimension.

00:29:20.320 Um, and, and I feel like sometimes the ideas we talk about are more modest and I would love something that was really going to change things, you know, pretty significantly.

00:29:32.600 Well, you're up against people's general resistance to change, to big change, you know?

00:29:36.120 And in fact, I was just reading, um, we just said on Adam Grant, who I know you've had on.

00:29:40.200 And, um, one of the, I think, I think this is from his book, but one of the, one of the things that was espoused was when trying to convince somebody that your idea is a good one, one of the things you might consider reassuring them of is the things that will stay the same, right?

00:29:56.480 Like I got this big change to propose and, but like, here's a one through nine that's going to stay the same.

00:30:01.600 And I just like 10, 10 is going to go away, you know?

00:30:05.400 And I thought it was a really interesting persuasion technique, but let me pick up on something else you said.

00:30:10.200 Um, we, we need to reinvent models.

00:30:12.260 Basically we need to rethink.

00:30:13.280 And I, and I think that's what you're doing right now with founding your own media company, um, and putting out your own show on YouTube and as a podcast, which has been hugely successful.

00:30:22.740 And I love it, of course, cause I'm doing something similar though, not as ambitious, I think not yet.

00:30:28.220 And, um, I wonder what you think about what's happening right now in our media.

00:30:32.660 You've been, uh, just so our listeners know, you've been at CNN over time.

00:30:36.460 You were at CNBC or at MSNBC.

00:30:38.380 You, you, you've been, you did, you've done some work on Fox.

00:30:41.600 You decided to go out on your own.

00:30:43.320 And, and I wonder if you look around now and even recognize CNN and these other places versus when you were there.

00:30:51.460 You know, I appreciate them and I appreciated those opportunities.

00:30:55.520 And I appreciated that, you know, in their earliest era, like Ted Turner was like, he was like Don Quixote.

00:31:04.280 You know what I mean?

00:31:04.880 Like he was like, you know what I mean?

00:31:07.160 Like it was really a wild idea and I still remember, uh, first hearing about Rupert Murdoch and hearing about the Fox channel and then eventually Fox news and some of these other things.

00:31:17.220 And so they were really, uh, kind of creative pioneers, but, but, but yeah, I mean, I think that in the same way that currency is changing, meaning crypto and tech is changing, meaning kind of robots and everything else.

00:31:30.860 And, you know, how we date, how we work, where we live, all of that is changing.

00:31:35.980 I think our media has got to change.

00:31:37.920 And I, I think that there's a window here where there will be three or four really significant new media companies by the end of the decade that really are among the 10 most important in the world that weren't household names, you know, today.

00:31:53.780 And so I hope that Ozzy ends up getting to become one of those.

00:31:57.740 I think that to really capture, not just the attention, but the commitment of curious people, I think you can't be smart and boring and you can't be flavorful, but empty, but I think you have to be both smart and flavorful.

00:32:12.500 And I think you have to meet people where they are.

00:32:15.200 And I think that it can't just be digital as great as digital is, but I actually deeply believe in live events.

00:32:21.500 Well, I know you said that one of your goals for your show or one of your personal goals is to be like Oprah.

00:32:27.840 And I understand, I used to love Oprah.

00:32:29.440 I love her less now, I confess, because she got political and I was just like, oh, she kind of got so rich and so out of touch.

00:32:35.280 I was like, I've kind of lost you and you've lost me.

00:32:38.860 But I understand the point, you know, big interviews with anybody.

00:32:42.440 Don't be afraid to go there.

00:32:43.680 Incidentally, she was just saying her big mistake in one of her interviews was she had Sally Field and she said she made the mistake of asking Sally Field whether Burt Reynolds sleeps with his toupee on.

00:33:01.540 Wait, why did she say that was a mistake?

00:33:03.600 Well, because apparently Sally Field did not like that and shut down. 1.00

00:33:07.760 She went totally cold on Oprah and Oprah said she couldn't get back in. 0.92

00:33:11.520 You know, you've alienated.

00:33:12.940 You probably never have, Carlos, but I've been there.

00:33:15.320 Where you alienate the person you're interviewing and they're just like, and bye.

00:33:19.980 And I think that happened to Oprah with Sally Field.

00:33:22.660 Yeah.

00:33:23.220 You're not supposed to ask about Burt Reynolds' hair ever.

00:33:27.120 Well, and, you know, sometimes there are things that you wouldn't even imagine are those kinds of triggers for people.

00:33:33.600 That are those triggers.

00:33:35.320 And I definitely have felt the moment shift.

00:33:38.680 And you know what's been interesting?

00:33:39.720 Over the last year in which you couldn't do these interviews in person but they're remote, that's even harder, Megan.

00:33:46.260 Like I tell people it's almost like doing remote surgery almost.

00:33:49.860 Like you can do it, but like being able to be there and be in the room is different.

00:33:55.080 And I've had two significant instances like that in the last year.

00:33:59.080 One was kind of a leading political figure.

00:34:02.280 And we were having a great conversation for the first three quarters.

00:34:05.100 And then we hit an area.

00:34:07.180 And because it was remote, I couldn't actually see her clearly enough.

00:34:11.740 But all of a sudden you could feel that it had changed.

00:34:14.220 And I know that if I had been there, I feel like something – I would have had a second chance with it, but I didn't.

00:34:20.620 So some people are a little more reserved.

00:34:25.600 And even though they are public figures, you know, in their heart they come to conversations on the defensive a little bit if that makes sense.

00:34:32.460 And so there's not that same kind of just ease, I'm here.

00:34:38.180 And so there's already some of that going on a little bit.

00:34:42.940 And so if something throws them off, then I feel like it is tougher for them.

00:34:48.780 Whereas there are other people who, you know, they're going to laugh with you almost, you know, almost –

00:34:54.700 You know, I think about former President Bush who's, you know, 43 who, you know, he's going to laugh with you almost no matter what.

00:35:05.720 I think he would laugh with you even if he didn't like you.

00:35:08.860 I think – I mean obviously certain scenarios wouldn't allow him to laugh.

00:35:12.040 But he in general is someone who would just assume that people would be laughing and that there would be jokes flowing.

00:35:19.060 It's true.

00:35:20.440 It's hard.

00:35:21.740 And our media has gotten so polarized and so, frankly, nasty that when people don't know the anchor or the host and they take a risk by going on, especially in a long-form podcast situation, it's like it's not a three-minute one-and-done situation.

00:35:35.800 You really get to know somebody.

00:35:37.460 So it's scary.

00:35:38.140 I mean like I've been on the other end of that where I've like this caricature of me has been painted in the media that doesn't match up at all with who I am.

00:35:46.920 And you consider the invitation saying, okay, why is that person having me on, right?

00:35:51.420 Do they think that this is going to be a gotcha or this is – you know, it's just you've got to – you do have to carefully navigate the waters because not everybody is like you.

00:35:59.940 You are an open-minded, kind and generous interviewer.

00:36:03.380 I think other people are more looking to advance their own star.

00:36:07.880 Do you know what I mean?

00:36:08.700 Yeah.

00:36:09.140 Yeah.

00:36:09.300 I – and maybe part of that is also the reality era that we're in, right, and some of the competitive survivor-type games and mentality I think that people see and go after it in that way.

00:36:22.900 Or maybe some people would argue some of that even goes back to the early days of 60 Minutes and Mike Wallace and the rest.

00:36:30.360 But now social media – social media rewards that behavior.

00:36:34.440 But I always – I want to learn.

00:36:36.880 I mean the reason I do this and feel lucky to do it is I want to learn.

00:36:40.800 Like I want to hear what someone else – and even if I disagree and even if I disagree strongly, I still – I want to learn.

00:36:48.280 I want to learn how you're thinking, how you came to that, what you would do with that.

00:36:52.560 Would you ever consider something else?

00:36:54.640 Like who moves you?

00:36:56.120 And you're always going to end up being surprised, right?

00:36:59.420 Like, you know, and if you stay in it and you're just with the person, they're going to share something that reminds you that most of us are contradictions, right?

00:37:12.040 What did Dr. King used to – he loved that quote that – there was a famous quote that he used to say, there's enough stuff in me to make both a gentleman and a rogue, right?

00:37:21.200 And I think very few of us are only one thing or the other.

00:37:25.440 And so I actually – I like the contradiction.

00:37:27.720 And I'm more interested in someone who has contradictions and who's willing to allow that to be part of how we get to know each other.

00:37:37.760 Amen.

00:37:38.820 I mean I saw just looking at some of the folks you interviewed, one of the people on the list was Tommy Lauren of Fox Nation.

00:37:44.540 And I find her interesting too.

00:37:46.120 I don't know much about her, but God, she gets killed in the press, right?

00:37:48.840 She says controversial things, but there are a lot of people out there who say controversial things, you know?

00:37:53.500 It's like why would you say that makes me uninterested in speaking with them, you know?

00:37:59.200 Or I just want to have them on so I can beat the hell out of them. 1.00

00:38:01.820 Now, if they say something really stupid and they're a politician, game on, right? 0.98

00:38:04.980 Like that you put yourself out there, especially if it's a short-form interview and you just – you know, they come on just to explain the thing. 0.98

00:38:10.420 But in podcasting, it's fun because you get to – you get the layered pieces of a person, you know, where none of us is all good or bad.

00:38:19.080 None of us comes to this world with a presumption of, you know, evil or all goodness.

00:38:25.640 Right.

00:38:25.900 We're complicated, as my therapist always says.

00:38:28.960 You get that.

00:38:30.060 Up next, we're going to talk to Carlos about critical race theory.

00:38:34.500 What does he think about it taking over our schools?

00:38:36.960 And he's got some thoughts on Trump, too.

00:38:39.040 We'll get to that.

00:38:39.700 But first, I want to bring you a feature we have called From the Archives here at the MK Show, where we look back into the history of the show, the show's library, now with more than 100 episodes.

00:38:50.360 Yay.

00:38:51.060 Or as Adam Grant said, woo!

00:38:52.900 I've been thinking about that and using it.

00:38:54.680 Just like there's something about just the woo without the who that's appealing.

00:38:57.820 Anyway, we will be bringing you a clip today that you should go and check out if you haven't heard it yet, or you can listen to the whole episode.

00:39:04.120 You can listen again if you already have listened to it.

00:39:06.380 And today we're going all the way back to episode 28 in November of last year for my conversation with my pal Dave Rubin.

00:39:13.280 I can't believe he was only episode 28.

00:39:16.200 Like, I cannot believe that we're already at 100 and Dave was 28.

00:39:19.520 It just seems like it's all going by so quickly.

00:39:21.500 Remember this one?

00:39:22.260 This is a very well-received episode.

00:39:23.900 It did very well, and he and I had a great conversation about politics, about his own political journey from the left to the right, about gay marriage, about his own marriage.

00:39:34.200 But listen, it's Monday, so let's have some fun.

00:39:36.320 Near the end of the episode, we got into two stories that had us both and my entire team cracking up.

00:39:41.700 They had to do with sperm banks, Donald Trump Jr., Dennis Rodman, and my nana.

00:39:48.260 Listen to this.

00:39:49.660 Wait, I got to tell you something really funny about the whole sperm donor thing and all that.

00:39:54.500 It's not sperm donor.

00:39:55.240 We had to deposit, I guess.

00:39:56.660 So the day we were, when we were deciding to do all this, it was a few weeks before.

00:40:02.140 We had been planning on it for a long time, but when we were finally ready to, like, deposit the sperm and actually begin the process, it was right as the lockdowns were starting.

00:40:10.600 And our fertility doctor called us, and it was Friday.

00:40:14.420 He said, you've got to get here in the next hour because we could be closed for months.

00:40:18.740 Like, you've got to deposit this sperm now.

00:40:21.700 So we hop in the car.

00:40:24.320 We have to drive about 45 minutes to get there.

00:40:27.140 We get there.

00:40:28.340 We get out of the car.

00:40:29.560 And remember that feeling right when lockdown was starting?

00:40:31.860 Like, it just felt crazy.

00:40:33.480 Like, it really just, like, you could feel like this craziness in the air.

00:40:36.860 And we get out of the car.

00:40:38.760 We're going to the sperm clinic to basically both of us whack off in a cup.

00:40:43.740 That's something I never thought I was going to say to Megyn Kelly.

00:40:46.720 But we're about to walk in there.

00:40:48.780 As we're about 10 feet from the door, my phone rings, and it's Trump Jr.

00:40:52.740 So now I'm on the phone with Trump Jr., and he's just babbling.

00:40:55.360 I don't even remember what he was saying.

00:40:56.960 But I'm on the phone with him.

00:40:59.200 I'm about to go into the sperm clinic.

00:41:00.760 We're going into lockdown.

00:41:01.620 And then I look to my left, and standing outside the sperm clinic, just standing there with

00:41:06.280 a skateboard, is Dennis Rodman.

00:41:09.260 And I thought, this is insane.

00:41:11.500 The world is locking down.

00:41:12.800 I'm on the phone with the president's son.

00:41:14.380 I'm standing next to Dennis Rodman on a skateboard, and I'm going to whack off in a cup.

00:41:18.360 Like, it was a hell of a day.

00:41:20.420 This cannot be my motivation for this scene.

00:41:23.000 I'm going to need something else, Lord.

00:41:25.920 Right.

00:41:26.400 You can't.

00:41:27.600 And what Dennis Rodman was doing at a sperm clinic, I have no idea.

00:41:30.600 I don't think we should ask.

00:41:32.380 I don't think we need to know.

00:41:34.240 Doug is going to kill me for telling this story, but I'm going to tell this story anyway.

00:41:38.020 So we did IVF for our babies, and it's a long story, but we did.

00:41:44.900 And so he, apparently, like, and maybe you know this, but, like, let's say you're going

00:41:49.480 to do the, I don't know, the transfer or, like, whatever.

00:41:54.040 The sperm is going to be needed by the doctor on a Friday.

00:41:56.240 So it, like, matters when you give the sperm to the doctor.

00:42:00.160 And it matters when the previous, forgive me, but ejaculation happened.

00:42:05.280 And it's all, like, down to a science, and the doctor will tell you, like, make sure the

00:42:08.760 last time you guys have sex is, like, two days before he comes in to give the deposit.

00:42:13.100 So you're like, oh, wow, there's a lot to remember.

00:42:14.680 Okay.

00:42:15.380 Well, we kind of forgot.

00:42:17.040 We were busy, whatever.

00:42:17.900 And we, at that time.

00:42:21.660 You're having a good time.

00:42:23.360 No.

00:42:23.920 No, we weren't.

00:42:24.760 Well, kind of, but not in the way you think.

00:42:26.380 We went to see my nana.

00:42:28.400 My nana, who, at that point.

00:42:30.180 I don't know where this is going, but this just got weird.

00:42:34.360 We went to see my nana, who, at the time, I think was, like, 97.

00:42:38.720 And she was in her senior citizen's house in her little apartment. 0.53

00:42:42.180 And the three of us are there playing dominoes.

00:42:44.680 And out of the blue, I remember, oh, this was, we're at the 48 hours mark.

00:42:50.480 This is it right now.

00:42:52.880 I look at Doug.

00:42:53.860 I'm like, you got to go into that bathroom right there and take care of business. 1.00

00:42:57.040 He's like, what?

00:42:59.100 Go take care of it.

00:43:00.100 He's like, I can't do it.

00:43:01.620 I can't.

00:43:02.060 I can't.

00:43:02.540 And, of course, it's, like, an old person's home. 0.98

00:43:05.440 And so, like, the distance between the floor and the bottom of the bathroom door is, like,

00:43:09.780 four inches.

00:43:11.000 Oh, God.

00:43:11.740 And he went there and he can hear me and Nana playing the dominoes and Nana being, like,

00:43:17.960 a one or a two-two.

00:43:19.440 You know, like, she's all her mannerisms. 0.95

00:43:23.600 And she's like, what's taking Doug so long?

00:43:27.100 He must have a bellyache.

00:43:28.920 I think he does, Nana.

00:43:30.540 I think something's wrong with him.

00:43:31.860 Let's just give him some time.

00:43:34.280 Wow.

00:43:35.000 He finally emerges.

00:43:36.380 He's like, I cannot believe you just made me do that.

00:43:39.780 But you know what the end story is?

00:43:41.620 We, it worked because we got pregnant. 0.55

00:43:44.000 It worked out just fine.

00:43:45.220 Wait a minute.

00:43:45.600 You got to finish this story.

00:43:46.660 So he does this.

00:43:47.660 Now you got to rush.

00:43:48.740 You got to leave Nana in the dust. 0.89

00:43:50.600 No.

00:43:51.200 No, no, no.

00:43:51.880 He didn't do it in a cup.

00:43:53.100 He just had to, he just had to do it.

00:43:55.160 So that, like, when he had to do it for real, everybody would be 48 hours old.

00:43:59.480 That's what, I got you right.

00:44:00.700 Because they want you to have this window. 0.99

00:44:02.860 This ejaculation window. 0.99

00:44:05.360 Gotcha. 0.94

00:44:05.680 Sperm that's, like, 48 hours old is, like, the strongest sperm, I guess.

00:44:10.320 Right.

00:44:10.700 Probably every fertility doctor at home right now is saying, wrong, Kelly, wrong.

00:44:14.320 But that's basically the rule.

00:44:15.320 They wanted it to be, like, 48 hours before the real deposit had to be made.

00:44:19.260 And poor Doug.

00:44:22.140 He's going to kill me for telling you this story.

00:44:26.340 He did not kill me.

00:44:27.760 I don't think, I don't, I don't know if he was thrilled, but he said it would be okay.

00:44:30.540 I did run it by him before we actually aired it.

00:44:32.660 At some point, we'll get a fertility doctor on to actually fact check the story. 1.00

00:44:37.600 No, I know that it's true.

00:44:39.900 But until then, we'll keep bringing you clips, making you laugh, making you think, ideally.

00:44:44.740 And that is from the archives.

00:44:46.840 Now, back to Carlos Watson, right after this.

00:44:55.020 I'm very concerned about the way things are going right now, Carlos, because I feel like

00:44:59.820 the messaging's changing on this.

00:45:01.800 And, you know, I talked about some of the BLM protests when I came on your show with

00:45:06.280 Katie Kay.

00:45:07.380 But here's my, here's my concern in a nutshell on that stuff.

00:45:10.640 I feel like BLM and sort of the moment was ripe for a true racial reckoning where, where 0.62

00:45:17.860 the country was paying attention after the death of George Floyd in a way that they hadn't

00:45:21.840 been before.

00:45:22.360 Like, what, what, what is really going on?

00:45:24.780 Have we been missing something?

00:45:26.060 You know, this is, this tape is so disturbing.

00:45:28.380 And there was a moment of togetherness.

00:45:30.300 I mean, there were riots and so on happening too, but there was also a moment of togetherness.

00:45:34.060 And I feel like it was, it was ruined because of overreach, because of, you know, I taught,

00:45:41.040 I said this to you when I came on your show in the same way, the Me Too movement was essentially

00:45:44.040 ruined by critical race theory being introduced in the schools and white kids being told they're

00:45:48.560 white supremacists when they're seven.

00:45:50.080 And, you know, the, the, the head of BLM out there buying four mansions and millions of

00:45:54.280 dollars and like, it's just like, it was ruined in a way that it might not have had to be right.

00:46:00.660 Like, I don't think everybody's going to agree on systemic racism.

00:46:03.700 Not everybody's going to agree on the cops and all that, but there could have been more

00:46:06.980 advancement in a more together way than there is right now.

00:46:11.640 Cause now people are getting so polarized.

00:46:13.260 It's like, yeah, no, forget it.

00:46:15.720 I I'm out and going back to my corner.

00:46:17.140 I hope that people don't stay in their corner because I still think that, you know, even

00:46:25.340 though it was born out of something painful, um, the conversation that started last, uh,

00:46:32.400 spring, summer is still the brightest, liveliest, most engaged conversation that I've seen in

00:46:40.700 my lifetime, um, about race and fairness and equality and possibility.

00:46:46.660 And, and so I hope that it doesn't go away.

00:46:50.460 It's funny, I am geeky enough to listen to old speeches.

00:46:54.480 And some of the old speeches I love to listen to are Martin Luther King Jr.

00:46:58.920 Speeches and not just the, I have a dream speech, but a whole suite of speeches that

00:47:02.940 he gave across the years.

00:47:04.760 And, um, in the speech he gave the night before he died, he talked about, um, the early

00:47:11.600 sixties and he literally goes through and he talks about, um, um, all the young people

00:47:16.660 young people in the summer of 61 and the summer of 62 and the summer of 63.

00:47:22.340 And as you hear him talk about it, you're reminded that it wasn't just a one and done.

00:47:27.980 Do you know what I mean?

00:47:28.720 That having an important conversation and making change happen in terms of kids getting to

00:47:34.860 go to school, people being able to vote, you know, a whole suite of other things took

00:47:40.100 real and sustained work.

00:47:41.360 And so I hope that, that we will have another fresh set of conversations.

00:47:48.560 I think that, um, it will be hard to have them because people are coming from very different

00:47:54.320 places.

00:47:54.980 I think it is very important that a wide range of people, including you and me, um, uh,

00:48:02.620 if people assume that we can be valuable to it, which I hope we can be, are, are a part

00:48:08.140 of those conversations.

00:48:09.960 And, um, and it's funny the other day I had a young man who's in his early twenties, who's

00:48:16.260 running for the city council in New York, she, oh, say, and I had, um, who's, who's black,

00:48:22.780 um, uh, very progressive.

00:48:24.280 Um, and I had a woman named Mika Mosbacher, who, uh, uh, Texan, uh, strong supporter of

00:48:32.020 President Trump, um, um, white in her, uh, uh, in her sixties.

00:48:38.060 Um, and they ended up having a really good and genuine and substantive conversation.

00:48:44.520 And I think they both were warmly surprised about the areas that they agreed on.

00:48:48.560 They didn't agree on all, and I'm not trying to do fake kumbaya, but they, uh, they, uh,

00:48:52.760 they ended up in a really good conversation about, uh, the way forward and some opportunities,

00:48:59.400 uh, to agree on things.

00:49:01.400 And so I'm hopeful that more of that could happen.

00:49:04.420 I candidly did not feel like president Trump facilitated that.

00:49:08.340 I think he ended up being a, um, I think he made good conversation and, and good debate

00:49:16.760 over things harder as opposed to, um, and I don't just mean race.

00:49:22.760 I mean, on a variety of things as opposed to making it, it, it more likely.

00:49:27.340 So, um, so I, and again, maybe I'm being Pollyannish, but, but I am optimistic.

00:49:32.980 Like I, like we have to do better on questions of race than we've done as a country.

00:49:37.820 Like we absolutely have to do better.

00:49:39.680 Okay.

00:49:39.960 But let me ask you this.

00:49:41.000 Let me ask you this.

00:49:41.600 Because in having those conversations, like you are having those conversations in a respectful

00:49:46.680 way.

00:49:47.280 I am also trying to do that, but I will tell you that, you know, and if you're going to

00:49:51.060 have a conversation about race relations and how to improve them in America, then you need

00:49:56.700 all voices to weigh in, right?

00:49:58.600 You can't like white voices also do need to matter in the conversation. 0.97

00:50:02.980 What happens as a white woman, if you disagree with some, or a white man, if you disagree

00:50:07.580 with some of this stuff, you know, what happens racist, you're a racist, right?

00:50:12.040 Like if you try to say, I don't want critical race theory in my school.

00:50:15.620 I don't want my third grader being told to deconstruct his racial identity and rank himself

00:50:19.800 according to his power.

00:50:21.020 You know, like I don't want him to be told that he's dominant and that, you know, has to

00:50:26.320 apologize for the color of his skin over which he has no control.

00:50:28.560 All that stuff is happening and it's happening coast to coast.

00:50:32.540 That is worth fighting for, for me to get that out of our schools.

00:50:36.080 Like, I feel like I'm not having this conversation about this.

00:50:39.740 This needs to be removed hard stop.

00:50:42.560 And it's been a distraction from the larger issue.

00:50:45.920 You know, I've got strong feelings on the police and some of the misinformation that's

00:50:50.080 been out there on them.

00:50:50.900 I'm not saying they're perfect.

00:50:51.760 Trust me.

00:50:53.160 But this thing is cancerous.

00:50:56.460 And I, I just feel like, why aren't we talking about it?

00:50:59.240 Why, why can't we talk about it? 0.99

00:51:01.400 Whites, blacks, community members as, as the, the cancer that it is. 1.00

00:51:07.220 So what I would say to you is I would say to you, I want to have a conversation about 0.96

00:51:11.540 that because I think I probably disagree with you on a good bit of that, meaning that I think

00:51:17.240 that we do need to change our curriculum.

00:51:18.960 And I would say to you, I would probably want to have a conversation with you about, do you

00:51:25.620 think that what we are currently teaching in our schools is enough?

00:51:28.540 I assume you probably would say, no, you probably would agree that we probably need to change

00:51:33.320 it.

00:51:33.540 And I would say to you, okay, let's talk about how we could change it.

00:51:37.240 And I would say, let me put down some of the things I think we should talk about.

00:51:40.860 And I think there should be a good conversation about that.

00:51:45.900 And if you said to me, hey, Carlos, hard stop, I don't want to go there.

00:51:50.520 I'd say, I probably can't really would say to you, let's not say hard stop yet.

00:51:55.180 I probably would say to you, let's go to the whiteboard, figurative whiteboard, virtual

00:51:59.640 whiteboard.

00:52:00.460 Let's, let's, let's talk about the half dozen things that I think would be game changers to

00:52:06.220 have real conversation on.

00:52:08.060 And let's see if we can agree.

00:52:09.700 And you and I may not agree on all six.

00:52:12.200 Maybe we could only agree on three.

00:52:13.940 And so I'd probably be inclined to say, great, let's get started with the three.

00:52:17.480 But you have different rails up.

00:52:19.200 You have different guardrails up right now, because I'm talking about critical race theory,

00:52:22.840 which is I, which is Marxist, which is very demeaning, which is disempowering to blacks and whites. 0.62

00:52:31.740 That that's a no, that is a non-starter race relations, Chloe Valdary, you know, how do we,

00:52:38.060 how do we lift up black students and empower young black people to understand the history

00:52:44.480 while, while educating white people on the history in a very real way that's not totally

00:52:49.780 demoralizing and blaming, you know, six-year-olds of today for the sins of their fathers, you

00:52:54.500 know, years and years and years ago.

00:52:56.260 That's yes.

00:52:57.000 Yes, we can totally do that and should do that.

00:53:00.220 But what's happening right now in our schools is something very different.

00:53:03.620 And I don't know if you have kids, but there are a lot of members of the black community

00:53:07.120 now that are speaking out about this.

00:53:08.760 In Virginia, a black woman saying, how dare you? 0.75

00:53:11.600 How dare you speak to my child in this way? 0.98

00:53:13.520 These lesson plans are disempowering. 0.76

00:53:15.140 That whites have all the advantages. 0.99

00:53:16.400 That my black child has none of them. 1.00

00:53:17.920 That my black child can't learn. 1.00

00:53:19.060 And so on and so forth. 0.99

00:53:20.900 That stuff is, that's got to go.

00:53:24.240 It's just got to go.

00:53:25.100 It's the same thing as teaching whites that they should be racist, right? 0.55

00:53:28.560 It's like that we wouldn't converse about that.

00:53:30.920 We would just say it's got to go, period.

00:53:33.000 Well, one of the things I will say is that I think that for a variety of reasons, there

00:53:39.060 are a whole set of conversations about, and right now we were talking about race and economics,

00:53:45.000 but to be really clear, I think that there are a bunch of very controversial topics that

00:53:50.040 we also should be talking about that include robots and clones and all sorts of other things.

00:53:56.260 And so I, exactly.

00:53:57.740 And I think there are actually a whole suite of really, and so part of what I think I would

00:54:03.500 probably say, and I'm thinking real time here with you, is I probably would sooner

00:54:11.100 say to you, because I hear people say things about critical race theory, or I hear people

00:54:16.820 say, you know, this, that, or the other.

00:54:19.100 And I'd say, okay, I, for one, don't know, I'm not sure that I could really describe what

00:54:24.640 critical race theory is.

00:54:25.660 So before I would say it's a hard no, I probably would say to someone, hey, walk me through

00:54:31.140 what that is so that I can really decide whether that is a hard no for me, whether it's

00:54:39.020 this parts of it are really valuable and that parts of it, we shouldn't do.

00:54:42.760 And I'm not sure that that always happens.

00:54:45.240 And so probably one of, one of the things that I would argue for, because I do feel like

00:54:50.700 we're going into what Ray Bradbury call it, a brave new world.

00:54:54.640 Like I do feel like the next decade is going to have so many controversial things that we

00:54:59.840 do have to have a good way to like explore, understand, and pursue really controversial things.

00:55:07.140 I was having a conversation about crypto and watching the conversation.

00:55:13.500 Another thing that I just don't understand.

00:55:15.040 Well, exactly.

00:55:16.080 But, but, but, you know, for the last couple of years, I've watched Jamie Dimon, who I have

00:55:19.600 a lot of respect for, and a lot of CEO Chase, and a lot of others talk about crypto and dismiss

00:55:24.680 it and say no.

00:55:25.860 And Lloyd Blankfein, former CEO of Goldman, who I know is mentor, friend, you know, where they

00:55:32.760 were five years ago, if I'd fully listened to them, I would have dismissed it.

00:55:37.080 Right.

00:55:37.720 And, and, and I did, which is why I don't own Bitcoin or Ethereum or Dogecoin or any of the

00:55:43.520 stuff that I should have owned probably.

00:55:45.640 And, and so before I quickly agree that whatever the hot button thing in the moment is totally

00:55:53.980 off, like, I want you to explain it to me first, right?

00:55:58.260 And then I want to have a conversation around it.

00:56:01.960 And I just, in general, am more inclined to, to try to understand, is there anything in

00:56:10.560 what you're offering that is beneficial?

00:56:12.960 So I don't know whether you're, you're right or wrong about that particular guardrail.

00:56:18.420 And I, and I don't have kids yet.

00:56:20.120 I'm saying yet, even though I'm a little long in the tooth and maybe late in the game,

00:56:23.840 but I'm hoping that I'll get a shot before it's all over.

00:56:27.720 But, but, and, and, and so I'm sure that there is a moment for you as a mother with your

00:56:36.420 kids that, that, that I can't quite fully comprehend and be there with yet.

00:56:43.800 But, but that's, Megan, I think that's, that would also be one of my wishes in that I would

00:56:49.420 rather hear, like, if someone says defund the police, like, before people say, hell,

00:56:57.100 no, we won't go, I want to say, hey, tell me what you mean by that.

00:57:01.620 Tell me how you're coming to that.

00:57:03.600 Tell me what the goals of that are.

00:57:05.820 And, and then I want to have a good conversation about that with a variety of people.

00:57:10.300 And, and that, that would be a little bit of what I want.

00:57:12.980 And so one of my laments about some of these hottest issues is that, and I don't want to

00:57:20.200 turn into a school room, but I'd love to do at least a little bit of making sure that people

00:57:24.700 understand what it is we're talking about before it immediately ends up in the dustbin.

00:57:30.660 Well, that's that.

00:57:31.300 I mean, I would say that this is the problem with CRT.

00:57:33.680 I understand it very well.

00:57:34.760 We've been doing lots of shows on it, so we could spend all day discussing it.

00:57:38.560 But, and I've done my homework as, as, as just a caring citizen and as a mom.

00:57:43.480 Um, and, but I think most people haven't, most people hear it use, they hear words like

00:57:47.780 diversity and anti-racism and they're like, yes, I'm in favor of those things. 1.00

00:57:51.940 Uh, and then when you look, when you really drill down on what they're doing, it's, it's

00:57:55.760 completely damaging.

00:57:56.780 It's very unhealthy and it's going to come back to haunt us.

00:58:00.320 It's exactly the opposite of what Martin Luther King wanted.

00:58:03.660 Exactly the opposite.

00:58:05.220 And I understand some people say King was wrong throughout what he said.

00:58:08.560 We should, we, we, we aren't colorblind and to pretend otherwise is pointless.

00:58:12.840 And the little black boy and a little white boy walking down the street, holding the hands

00:58:16.280 was a nice dream, but they could, they have to be ever conscious of race.

00:58:19.420 And that's just a, I don't agree with any of that.

00:58:21.580 I'm much more than Martin Luther King feels.

00:58:23.500 So is Glenn Lowry and John McWhorter and all these people, but it's a big debate that we're

00:58:27.960 having right now.

00:58:28.740 And I think on a larger scale, we can talk about systemic racism.

00:58:31.300 We can talk about, you know, solving problems, but when it comes to this cancer, it's got to

00:58:37.240 get out.

00:58:37.500 All right, let me shift gears and I'll steal the final word on that, um, for, for today

00:58:41.360 to be continued.

00:58:42.880 Um, so let me ask you what you think then is the future for our industry.

00:58:47.700 Having started your own company.

00:58:49.200 I mean, the ratings of these cable news companies are spiraling downward.

00:58:53.620 Here's just one example.

00:58:54.460 In, in January, 2021, CNN had 2.7 million viewers in prime time, which is huge for them.

00:58:59.580 That's because it was impeachment 2.0 and the riots and all this stuff bad for Trump.

00:59:04.240 Now, less than 800,000 in the overall, in the overall, I mean, I would be getting 800,000

00:59:10.180 in the demo 25 to 54 when I was back in the Kelly file to get that in the overall, I would

00:59:14.320 have been fired. 0.99

00:59:15.040 My, my ass would have been out the door. 1.00

00:59:16.080 So that's just one example, but they're all going down and post Trump, they're really 0.99

00:59:21.060 going down.

00:59:22.100 It's like, like everybody was like, we hate him.

00:59:25.840 We hate him.

00:59:26.220 But now it's like readings collapse.

00:59:27.620 They're like, was he all bad?

00:59:28.920 Was he, was he, was he, was it all terrible?

00:59:31.240 Maybe we could take him back for one more turn.

00:59:33.020 So what do you think happens to our industry when you say we're going to have a couple

00:59:36.640 of big media companies?

00:59:37.660 Like, is it podcasting?

00:59:39.400 Does cable go away?

00:59:41.300 What's the, what's the influential platform of the future?

00:59:45.400 Um, I, I think there will be, uh, I, I think you and I fast forward in 24 or 2025.

00:59:52.260 I think, um, in the U S, uh, there'll be lots of different choices, but I bet you in the news

00:59:59.040 space, there'll be, uh, four or five major players, uh, that don't exist.

01:00:04.000 I do believe in podcasting and audio.

01:00:06.800 I mean, uh, uh, a mix of podcasts of radio shows of kind of interactive audio spaces, um,

01:00:15.380 of, of more briefs from, um, uh, almost kind of like audio Ted talks, a whole suite of

01:00:22.240 things.

01:00:22.660 I think those will, will end up being, uh, really important.

01:00:26.340 Um, I think someone's going to crack it with gaming.

01:00:29.040 Um, uh, I don't know if you have anyone in your life who likes gaming or e-gaming or e-sports,

01:00:33.780 but my lawyer and like one of my dear friends represents like the biggest gamer ever.

01:00:39.020 And I'm learning bit by bit on how huge this industry is, how it dwarfs everything we do.

01:00:44.800 Oh my God.

01:00:45.260 You think, you know, you get like a hit on YouTube, forget it.

01:00:47.980 You look at what these gamers get.

01:00:49.120 It's like hundreds of millions of views on their YouTube videos.

01:00:52.920 Yeah.

01:00:53.580 Someone is going to, in the same way that Jon Stewart kind of brought a comedic approach

01:00:59.580 to news.

01:01:00.200 And so really turned the daily show into something special for a while there.

01:01:04.420 Someone is going to take the best of, of online, uh, um, gaming and, uh, e-sports and the rest

01:01:12.400 and bring that to news.

01:01:13.780 And so I think that's also going to end up being something, uh, that's different and

01:01:17.400 differentiated, but, but, you know, even more than political, I think that the even bigger

01:01:23.480 defining thing, I think honestly, it's going to be age generational.

01:01:26.800 I just think that even more and even more than millennial, I think Gen Z, I think they are

01:01:31.240 that different than Gen X than boomers that, that I think you'll see more stratification, 0.99

01:01:37.060 uh, based on, we just consume things differently and at a different speed and they may have

01:01:43.540 different lengths.

01:01:44.320 They may be shorter.

01:01:45.320 They may have more music in them.

01:01:47.360 Uh, uh, in some cases they may be more documentary style, which I know sounds contradictory.

01:01:52.240 Um, uh, but, but I think it will feel more like, uh, rich entertainment, uh, than like, um,

01:01:59.440 than your mother's or your father's news.

01:02:01.520 And so I, I, I'm, I'm hopeful.

01:02:05.100 I just feel like it's going to shift from, to use an old school analogy, it's going to

01:02:10.060 shift from like ABC to Spotify.

01:02:13.920 No, I believe that because think about it.

01:02:16.340 Like right now I don't watch cable news at all.

01:02:19.040 I haven't in years, frankly, since I got out of it and I don't find it appetizing at all.

01:02:25.000 I just feel like it's skinny and it's empty calories and they're just trying to work me

01:02:28.680 up.

01:02:28.880 And I know the game.

01:02:29.640 I've lived the game for a long time.

01:02:31.520 And I'm not playing that game anymore.

01:02:33.480 And so one of the things about what you do, what I'm doing now to this industry is, it

01:02:38.720 is very friendly.

01:02:40.260 It's user-friendly old people and young, but you can do it on the go.

01:02:44.260 You don't have to be sitting in front of Fox news at 9 PM anymore.

01:02:47.640 Like if you want to hear me, you could listen to me whenever you want.

01:02:49.860 Same with you.

01:02:50.740 Like I'm just going to download the Carlos Watson show today and I'll watch part of it

01:02:54.420 on the subway or I'll watch part of it.

01:02:56.140 And my taxi ride home, whatever it is, it's, it's so much more consistent with the way we

01:03:00.640 live our lives now.

01:03:02.400 Well, and to your point, one of the other things I think that will happen is networks

01:03:07.440 like Ozzy, I think will increasingly find talent, whether it's a Megyn Kelly, who's well-known 0.52

01:03:17.400 or someone who's up and coming and bring them in.

01:03:20.480 And just like HBO a generation ago, we'll kind of start anew and kind of redefine it.

01:03:27.240 And so I'm excited that there are all these wonderful creators out there.

01:03:31.540 And at Ozzy, one of the big things that we're doing over, you know, we've spent most of our

01:03:35.980 first half dozen years kind of building stuff internally ourselves.

01:03:39.040 And now we're beginning to look outside and we're saying, who's out there, who's super

01:03:43.860 talented, who's doing stuff on their own, that if Ozzy could be to them, what Fox News

01:03:49.600 was to you, meaning a platform that would hero you, elevate you, promote you, facilitate

01:03:57.080 things, you know, that real magic could, could ensue.

01:04:01.320 I think you're going to see that a little bit as well.

01:04:03.740 And again, I think this is a nice moment, at least for a young company like Ozzy, where

01:04:08.820 I feel like there's so many talented people out there.

01:04:11.220 And so part of our mission over the next year is to find a half dozen people who we really

01:04:15.520 think are shining brightly, who we think if they came together with the Ozzy platform,

01:04:21.900 everybody would win.

01:04:23.900 I like that.

01:04:25.220 All right.

01:04:25.440 But now while you're doing that, you've got to be finding love too, if you want to, if

01:04:29.220 you want to have those children.

01:04:30.740 So what's the story there?

01:04:32.260 Are you in the, are you in the market?

01:04:33.980 I mean, like, I know a lot of people.

01:04:35.720 You know what?

01:04:36.340 I love you.

01:04:36.960 I am not in the market.

01:04:38.160 I am happily taken.

01:04:39.840 And we have just been slow to it, but, but I'm hopeful.

01:04:46.200 I'm not, I'm not going to leave this earth without a couple of kids.

01:04:50.140 Hopefully we will have a couple and, and, and maybe even adopt.

01:04:55.020 Megan, I've always wanted to adopt.

01:04:56.780 Uh, I came from a family with four kids.

01:05:00.600 And so if we were lucky enough to have two and then adopted two, that would be a, uh,

01:05:07.200 that'd be a good thing.

01:05:08.700 I love your plan.

01:05:09.780 I think, look, somebody like you needs to be a dad.

01:05:13.320 You, you need to bring children in this world, however you want to do it via adoption or otherwise,

01:05:17.600 because we need more good people having more kids, right?

01:05:21.240 Like the birth rate's low.

01:05:22.820 Everybody's worried about the birth rate.

01:05:23.940 I'm like, you know what we do as somebody who's getting old, I do want more in the younger

01:05:27.680 generation.

01:05:28.700 Who else am I going to depend on?

01:05:31.600 And, uh, your gene pool should be reproduced.

01:05:34.340 You know, I thank you for that.

01:05:36.180 I, I am looking forward to that.

01:05:37.800 It would, uh, it would keep me young and I definitely will end up being hopefully a both

01:05:42.520 fun and annoying dad.

01:05:43.800 So I'm ready to do both.

01:05:45.140 Oh, you, you, you can create your own new Robin.

01:05:48.740 You could still be Batman.

01:05:49.980 You can create a bunch of little Robins.

01:05:51.220 There you go.

01:05:52.300 There you go.

01:05:53.460 Oh, lots of love, Carlos.

01:05:54.720 Thank you for coming on.

01:05:56.060 Megan, thank you for, uh, always having me.

01:05:58.420 And, um, I, and I hope you let me say it.

01:06:00.480 I, I love your, uh, your boldness and I love that you were doing this show.

01:06:07.200 And I love that you looked up, took a deep breath and said, what can I create as opposed

01:06:14.820 to only looking around and saying, who can I join?

01:06:17.920 And so, you know, they always say, you never know who's watching you and who's drawing inspiration

01:06:23.560 from you.

01:06:24.240 And so count me as one of those folks who was excited to see you do what you're doing.

01:06:28.700 And it inspires me to be a little more entrepreneurial.

01:06:31.600 Oh, you're such a gentleman.

01:06:32.980 Thank you so much for the compliment.

01:06:34.560 How sweet you are.

01:06:35.620 Listen, let's not say goodbye.

01:06:36.900 Let's say to be continued.

01:06:38.300 To be continued.

01:06:39.140 I be the same as they say.

01:06:40.360 Download, rate, five stars.

01:06:46.900 Give me a little review there, would you?

01:06:48.520 Give me a one-liner.

01:06:50.180 Give me a two-paragrapher.

01:06:51.720 I'm not picky.

01:06:52.600 I'll take it either way, but I love to hear from you.

01:06:55.000 And we'll talk again on Wednesday.

01:06:56.960 Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show.

01:06:58.920 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

01:07:03.460 The Megan Kelly Show is a Devil May Care media production in collaboration with Red Seat Ventures. 0.56

01:07:10.360 I'll see you next time on Wednesday.

01:07:12.620 Bye.

01:07:13.760 Bye.

01:07:15.060 Bye.

The Megyn Kelly Show - May 17, 2021

Carlos Watson on Challenging Conversations, the State of the Media, and the Ingredients to Success ｜ Ep. 103

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