The Megyn Kelly Show - CBS Cancels Colbert, WSJ's Epstein-Trump Nothingburger, and Barbara Walters' Complicated Legacy, with Maureen Callahan

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00:01:00.000 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111, every weekday at noon east.

00:01:12.200 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:01:14.120 Welcome to Megyn Kelly Show, and happy Friday.

00:01:17.180 Today, I mean, there's a lot.

00:01:20.180 This is a lot to go over.

00:01:23.860 Before we get to it, and Maureen Callahan, who's our guest today, I want to tell you about Monday.

00:01:29.340 I'm leaving the Jersey Shore to go back to New York City and the Sirius XM HQ for a live interview with Rahm Emanuel,

00:01:40.100 a longtime Democratic political operative, former mayor of Chicago, congressman, and high-level aide to Presidents Clinton and Obama.

00:01:49.240 I have never interviewed him before, but reports are that he is seriously considering running for president

00:01:55.900 and the Democrat nomination in 2028.

00:01:59.020 Could he be the type of candidate that gets the Democratic Party back on track?

00:02:03.500 We've talked about him a lot on this show.

00:02:05.460 He's strong.

00:02:06.660 He's no nonsense.

00:02:07.720 He's a fighter.

00:02:08.740 He's more centrist than certainly where the party is going right now, AOC and Bernie and Mamdani.

00:02:15.840 So what does he think about what's happened to his party, and how will he sound?

00:02:22.360 Will he sound more centrist?

00:02:23.880 Do we think he can go the distance?

00:02:26.060 Those are some of the things I'll be looking for when I speak to him on Monday.

00:02:29.480 And you know what else would be interesting?

00:02:30.940 He knows that this audience is not a left-wing audience.

00:02:34.420 You know, I have a lot of centrists watching this show, and I have some center lefties, and I have a lot of center righties and righties.

00:02:40.420 But so he wants you guys to hear from him.

00:02:44.080 He wants you to listen to him.

00:02:45.820 So will he tailor his message to you?

00:02:48.340 You know, will he try to win you over?

00:02:50.100 Is this going to be somebody who's actually trying to reach out to people who, you know, aren't necessarily knee-jerk, lifelong Democrats?

00:02:57.980 Really looking forward to the whole thing for many reasons, okay?

00:03:00.160 But first, we got a lot of news to get to today.

00:03:02.940 It was the Jeffrey Epstein bombshell that wasn't.

00:03:07.220 It was really just a bomb.

00:03:08.360 We told you yesterday that the Wall Street Journal was preparing a big article about Trump's relationship with the disgraced financier.

00:03:15.840 Well, they published it.

00:03:17.700 And this is how the text chain went amongst the MK Show producers.

00:03:22.480 Is this it?

00:03:23.680 Is this all?

00:03:25.480 There's nothing more?

00:03:26.880 This is it?

00:03:28.000 Oh, God.

00:03:29.140 That's really how my team and I reacted when we saw it.

00:03:32.700 We'll get to that in one second.

00:03:34.100 And plus, CBS News canceling, CBS, I guess, canceling the late show with Stephen Colbert.

00:03:40.340 Thank God.

00:03:41.600 Single tear, I mean.

00:03:42.520 Super sad for him.

00:03:43.580 Hearts and prayers.

00:03:44.100 There's a new documentary about Barbara Walters, and I cannot wait to dig into this with Maureen.

00:03:51.500 She mentioned Barbara and this documentary on her show a couple weeks ago, The Nerve.

00:03:56.780 And I've got a lot of thoughts on the documentary on Barbara Walters, who you may not care that much about if you're, you know, under 35 or even, you know, under 45, maybe.

00:04:07.940 I don't know.

00:04:08.220 But she's a very interesting figure for a lot of reasons, and there are a lot of parallels to what's happening right now when it comes to women, personally and professionally.

00:04:17.480 And there's a big debate amongst women and working women and family.

00:04:22.300 And I got my own thoughts that I'm looking forward to discussing with all of you and with Maureen.

00:04:26.660 Here to break it all down, the host of the new hit show on the MK Media Podcast Network, The Nerve, with Maureen Callahan.

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00:05:35.680 Maureen, welcome back.

00:05:37.220 Thank you for having me, Megan.

00:05:39.360 Okay, and not only do I love the nerve and feel like I get extra time with you when I listen to it,

00:05:43.940 but I also am now two-thirds of the way through the book you recommended on one of your shows a couple weeks ago.

00:05:52.420 The Guest.

00:05:55.080 I'm listening to it on my audio.

00:05:56.960 Yeah.

00:05:57.320 Hold on a second.

00:05:58.240 Yeah.

00:05:58.420 The Guest by Emma Klein.

00:05:59.800 It's delicious.

00:06:01.400 I can't wait to see how it ends.

00:06:03.280 Yeah.

00:06:03.600 It's a super fun summary.

00:06:04.800 I'm so happy.

00:06:05.940 It really is.

00:06:06.920 It's you can – I actually had to slow myself down while reading it because it was going – it's such a great, easy read, but it's literary.

00:06:14.700 And I really – I didn't want it to end.

00:06:17.180 And I was really – I was dying to know just as the writer in me, like, how is she going to land the plane, you know?

00:06:23.260 Yeah.

00:06:23.660 Because it's really more character-driven than, like, plot-driven.

00:06:27.600 But she – in my opinion, she does it beautifully.

00:06:30.560 Oh, well, I can't wait.

00:06:31.580 I've got one-third left to go.

00:06:33.140 So there you go.

00:06:33.740 Maureen Callahan's book recommendation.

00:06:35.840 You're welcome.

00:06:37.120 Okay.

00:06:37.800 There's a lot, a lot to get to.

00:06:40.260 I can't wait to dig our teeth into the Barbara thing.

00:06:42.620 But we have to start with actual news and this bomb of an attack on President Trump.

00:06:47.440 It was a joke.

00:06:48.240 I'm sorry.

00:06:48.840 It was a joke.

00:06:50.320 And take it from me.

00:06:51.420 I've done thousands of, like, exposés on people or covered them or Me Too stories.

00:06:59.580 This is a nothing burger.

00:07:01.500 It's an absolute nothing burger.

00:07:02.860 I laughed when I saw it.

00:07:04.680 The big shock piece the journal's been working on that's gotten all this buzz amongst journos in the days leading up to it is that Trump allegedly – he denies it and is now suing over this allegation –

00:07:17.420 In 2003, wrote Jeffrey Epstein a letter as part of a group of letters that came from people like Alan Dershowitz and many others for Jeffrey's 50th birthday party.

00:07:29.780 And the big, big sin of the letter is that it apparently appears in the sketch of a woman's body.

00:07:38.580 The implication is that Trump drew it.

00:07:41.040 And then it signed Donald.

00:07:43.440 So he drew a woman with breasts in, like, a figure with a marker.

00:07:49.300 And then inside, want us to believe that Donald Trump wrote the following.

00:07:54.960 Okay.

00:07:56.060 They said – here we go.

00:07:59.660 Hold on.

00:08:00.780 Voiceover.

00:08:01.480 He writes the words – he allegedly writes the words voiceover.

00:08:04.920 There must be more to life than having everything.

00:08:08.400 Donald.

00:08:09.100 He's like a script.

00:08:10.700 Yes, there is.

00:08:11.900 But I won't tell you what it is.

00:08:13.820 Jeffrey.

00:08:14.640 Nor will I, since I also know what it is.

00:08:18.660 Donald.

00:08:19.240 We have certain things in common, Jeffrey.

00:08:22.040 Jeffrey.

00:08:22.820 Yes, we do, come to think of it.

00:08:25.220 Donald.

00:08:26.360 Enigmas never age.

00:08:28.120 Have you noticed that?

00:08:29.560 Jeffrey.

00:08:30.160 As a matter of fact, it was clear to me the last time I saw you.

00:08:33.640 Donald, a pal is a wonderful thing.

00:08:37.040 Happy birthday.

00:08:38.040 And may every day be another wonderful secret.

00:08:42.440 That's it.

00:08:44.620 It's terrible dialogue.

00:08:46.980 And it does not sound like Donald J. Trump.

00:08:50.820 I mean, several things.

00:08:52.860 The fact that that is allegedly typewritten, that note, it feels to me the way like you – like in any crime story, you know a suicide is a murder.

00:09:03.140 If the suicide note is typewritten, right?

00:09:06.100 That's true.

00:09:08.240 Secondly, why did the Washington – sorry, the journal not reprint the actual document?

00:09:15.460 Totally.

00:09:15.720 Like I want to see the physical document.

00:09:18.600 Right?

00:09:18.920 Because who has a more distinctive signature than Donald Trump?

00:09:23.160 His signature looks like skyscrapers.

00:09:25.880 It's vending.

00:09:26.560 Totally.

00:09:28.100 So, you know, and thirdly, I just don't believe it.

00:09:33.380 To me, it feels like – remember when the Mueller report was finally published and Rachel Maddow took to the airwaves for an hour to self-soothe and convince herself and her viewers that there must be something in it?

00:09:44.000 We got to find it.

00:09:44.780 It's just there.

00:09:45.360 You know, it all just feels like – again, you and your guests have said it many times over the past week or so.

00:09:52.340 If there was a smoking gun involving Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein, we would have known it by now.

00:09:58.120 That's right.

00:09:58.860 We wouldn't be waiting for the Wall Street Journal to break it mid-President Trump's second term as president.

00:10:04.900 It's absurd.

00:10:05.620 So, we don't know whether even the journal has seen the original letter.

00:10:11.060 We know that they say they've seen documents.

00:10:13.480 They said Maxwell collected all these letters for this birthday gift Epstein got in 2003, put it in a birthday album.

00:10:21.360 They say, according to documents reviewed by the Wall Street Journal.

00:10:26.240 Well, which documents?

00:10:27.520 Have you seen the letter?

00:10:28.900 Trump's team is saying they did not hand the letter over to Team Trump when they went to him for comment.

00:10:33.400 So, it's unclear whether the journal has laid eyes on the actual alleged letter.

00:10:39.320 But I have to say – and Trump says this is fake and people online are doing a word search amongst everything Donald Trump has ever said.

00:10:45.720 And apparently, they haven't found, like, any uses of the word enigma.

00:10:50.500 I guess it's not one of his favorites.

00:10:52.760 Not like China.

00:10:54.240 So, I don't – I have no idea whether it's real.

00:10:57.380 Trump is mad enough saying it's fake and it sounds fake.

00:11:00.080 It does sound fake to me.

00:11:00.980 It doesn't sound like anything that Donald Trump has ever said or written.

00:11:04.820 But I almost don't care.

00:11:06.600 It's like, to me, this could be, if it really does exist, because it could be a fake that somebody put into a document to make them look bad after the fact.

00:11:13.820 Or, if it was actually in this book or whatever it is, it could just be Trump said, look, this is what happens with Abby, my assistant, and me a lot.

00:11:23.300 They want you to submit a quote about so-and-so into some, you know, retrospective.

00:11:29.840 These are the three they've proposed for you.

00:11:32.240 And it's like, okay, I'll take number one.

00:11:34.420 Right?

00:11:34.780 It's like sometimes you're just trying to do somebody a solid.

00:11:36.840 You're like, okay, that sounds good.

00:11:37.980 Let's go with that.

00:11:39.420 I'll guarantee you, if this is actually Trump's participation, which he denies, it's that.

00:11:45.060 Like, Ghislaine wrote this thing up for you to sign.

00:11:48.120 Is it cool?

00:11:48.840 Everybody's doing, like, a body funny thing, and this was the one she had for you.

00:11:52.580 And Trump, the celebrity, was like, fine, I don't care, and maybe doesn't remember it, or genuinely it could be a total fake.

00:11:58.540 Either way, I don't care, because I said nothing, Berger.

00:12:00.980 It's a body stupid letter that is totally meaningless.

00:12:03.660 This is not some, it's Trump with a 12-year-old, which is really where the Dems were going with this.

00:12:10.460 I love this theory.

00:12:11.640 And, you know, I just, I love how these conversations happen in silos.

00:12:14.640 So we're all theorizing, or supposedly theorizing, about Donald Trump and the authenticity of said letter, and does this go to a larger collusion with Jeffrey Epstein and the abuse of young girls?

00:12:26.920 And Bill Clinton's name never comes up.

00:12:29.000 Bill Clinton was on the flight logs as well, and, you know, they're apparently, allegedly, depending on who you talk to, sightings on the island, who knows?

00:12:36.620 But the other thing about this, Megan, that I love is people online trying to figure out if the wording matches up with anything Donald Trump has said or written in the many decades we've known him.

00:12:49.720 And we're more sophisticated now with AI.

00:12:51.760 It reminds me, remember when Primary Colors came out, and it was anonymously written?

00:12:56.960 And it was like the inside scoop on the scandalous, you know, behind the scenes goings on with the Clintons.

00:13:04.680 And within like a week, Drudge had it was Joe Klein, and some professor shot it through a computer, and it did like a matchup of words, and they nailed him.

00:13:16.220 First try.

00:13:17.360 That's incredible.

00:13:18.520 I forgot that.

00:13:19.340 No, I didn't.

00:13:20.160 Well, it's like, look, I'm sure Trump has used the word enigma here or there, but it's like people are parsing this.

00:13:26.080 And people I know who know President Trump very well say, this is, by the way, like, if Trump's going to write something, he's going to write it himself.

00:13:35.440 He's not going to typewrite anything out.

00:13:37.560 He might dictate a note and then sign it.

00:13:40.580 But like, this doesn't have the sort of fingerprints of the normal Donald Trump note at all.

00:13:47.780 The most, like, Trump has sent me many notes over the years, many, and 99% of the time, it's a newspaper article about him or me that he wants me to see, and he signs it in that Donald Trump, you know, sort of straight up and down, like you say, skyscraper signature.

00:14:08.860 No one, having submitted an alleged draft of what this fake-drawn woman looks like, Phil Holloway, attorney and frequent guest of the Megyn Kelly show, submitted this last night on X, which I got a genuine kick out of.

00:14:23.920 And he writes, they finally got him.

00:14:30.360 It looks like what a three-year-old would draw with a stick figure of a woman with just two circles for the boobs and then this very elementary DJ T at the bottom.

00:14:41.400 This is where our minds have to go, Maureen, because there's no proof.

00:14:44.080 There's no proof that he wrote anything at all.

00:14:46.160 Now, who in, who passed 1971 is using a typewriter?

00:14:52.580 Who?

00:14:53.120 Yeah.

00:14:53.520 Donald Trump is taking the time to typewrite.

00:14:56.860 Secondly, he does not strike me as a doodler, let alone a sketch artist.

00:15:02.260 Well, apparently he doesn't seem the type.

00:15:03.880 He doodles.

00:15:04.880 Apparently he doodles.

00:15:06.120 But to your point, you're going to find this interesting.

00:15:08.600 He, like, everything he doodles, all the doodles that, you know, sometimes they ask you as a public figure for a doodle.

00:15:14.440 And honestly, I'm like a 13-year-old girl with mine.

00:15:16.900 Mine are all, like, hearts upside down and right side up and sideways and connected.

00:15:21.600 He doodles the skyline of Manhattan.

00:15:25.320 There are pictures online now of, like, when they've asked Donald Trump for some of his doodles.

00:15:28.980 Every single time, look at it, there's one.

00:15:30.980 Every single time, it's a skyline of Manhattan.

00:15:33.600 So I don't think he really is a doodler when it comes to, and by the way, his statement says, first he writes,

00:15:40.740 I never wrote a picture in my life.

00:15:43.960 I don't draw pictures of women.

00:15:46.540 It's not my language.

00:15:47.800 It's not my words, which is interesting.

00:15:50.300 Like, if you find a doodle of hearts arranged in, like, a kaleidoscope-type design, and then you see Megyn Kelly in the middle, it might be mine.

00:15:59.000 It might be mine.

00:15:59.800 But he knows his doodles, and they're of the Manhattan skyline.

00:16:03.640 And he's saying, I don't doodle pictures of women, and it's not my language or my words.

00:16:09.320 In any event, back to my original point, which is, who gives a shit, even if it were Trump?

00:16:15.440 It says nothing.

00:16:16.840 I guess we're going with the fact that he says, may every day be another wonderful secret.

00:16:21.700 And the suggestion is, what, Trump was totally in on the fact that, at that point, Jeffrey Epstein was a serial abuser?

00:16:28.780 Okay.

00:16:29.260 He was one of the only ones who knew in 2003, because the charges weren't brought against him until 2006.

00:16:35.860 And it was an explosive piece of news when it hit the public airwaves.

00:16:41.760 Agreed.

00:16:42.380 Just to get back to the art for a second, again, like, those skyscrapers make total sense to me.

00:16:48.720 Trump does not strike me as an abstract artist.

00:16:51.020 He doesn't strike me as an abstract thinker.

00:16:53.700 He thinks in very concrete, linear terms.

00:16:56.180 Linear, totally.

00:16:56.360 I just don't see him, like, Matisse, you know, trying to make some sort of female figure.

00:17:03.800 And secondly, yeah, you know, it's all sort of meant to suggest that he was in on the trafficking and the grooming and the using and all of that.

00:17:11.440 And I just think, if you want to approach this thing logically, Trump is nothing but a self-preservationist.

00:17:16.840 He gets one whiff of what's going on with Jeffrey Epstein and that sweetheart deal, and he's keeping his distance.

00:17:22.120 Well, the thing is, so now Trump says he's going to sue Murdoch, The Wall Street Journal, and maybe other individuals.

00:17:30.900 But I don't know that that will go anywhere.

00:17:33.020 I really don't.

00:17:33.440 It's very, very hard for a public figure to sue for defamation.

00:17:35.960 It was easy in the Stephanopoulos case because he said something that was factually wrong.

00:17:41.740 It was very clear.

00:17:42.500 He said it over and over, and there was evidence that he was told by his producers it was wrong, and he said it anyway.

00:17:47.440 So all of that would suggest actual malice, suggesting that he could lose, that Stephanopoulos and ABC were going to lose in a courtroom, saying he raped somebody when he didn't.

00:17:55.760 But this is a lot harder because how is Trump going to prove he didn't write it?

00:18:02.660 Like, it's very hard to prove a negative that you didn't write it.

00:18:06.860 And even if he didn't write it, you'd have to prove knowledge of falsity on the journal's part, which is going to be tough because the journal, while he denied it, will have somebody testify, I didn't believe his denial.

00:18:19.100 And here are the reasons why I thought it was real.

00:18:21.860 So it's just the standard is so high for a public figure to claim he's been defamed.

00:18:26.100 I don't know whether he could ever recover, but we've seen news organization after news organization fold when Trump comes after them because they've just chosen not to be on his bad side and they don't want to go through the hassle.

00:18:37.940 I think that's why CBS folded and because it's trying to get a merger approved by Trump's government.

00:18:43.440 In any event, he's pissed.

00:18:45.180 And here's the other thing, Maureen, we all know if you're going to take a shot at the king, you best not miss.

00:18:51.200 And that's really what the journal just did.

00:18:54.140 Right.

00:18:54.680 And you also have to, like, you've talked about this a lot too.

00:18:58.700 Does the journal, let's say he's, because he does say this all the time, like, I'm going to see you and people think he's not going to do it.

00:19:04.880 And he does it, even if it seems not that strident or strong a case.

00:19:10.540 And sometimes these organizations just don't want to go through discovery.

00:19:13.780 They don't want to have to turn over those internal conversations via email or whatever.

00:19:19.200 You know, maybe somebody was listening on the line or Trump, you know, when Trump went to Murdoch and said, this is a lie.

00:19:24.420 And if you print it, I'm going to sue you.

00:19:26.480 You know, I mean, who knows the enmity between those two.

00:19:29.200 I love it.

00:19:29.680 I can't wait for the book someday.

00:19:31.800 Yeah.

00:19:32.020 The Trump-Murdoch war.

00:19:33.380 Tucker recently had an interview, made headlines where he told his guest, Tucker made news on his own show about himself and his relationship with Fox and the Murdochs.

00:19:43.340 And he said the Murdochs don't like Trump.

00:19:45.400 He said they hate Trump and that they asked me, Tucker, to run for president after they fired me or canceled his show to stop Trump.

00:19:53.940 Now, like, I have no idea how the Murdochs feel about Trump, but the Wall Street Journal is owned by Rupert Murdoch and Trump is saying he spoke to Rupert.

00:20:03.520 In fact, Trump tweeted out, I told Rupert not to not to print this.

00:20:08.220 And I think he said he said he was going to stop it.

00:20:11.240 I guess he didn't have the power, he says.

00:20:14.080 And now he says he's going to sue Rupert, the Journal, et cetera.

00:20:17.520 Look, I don't know.

00:20:18.680 I think this is much to do about nothing, but it did lead to a different disclosure.

00:20:23.320 Trump last night promising that in light of the amount of publicity around Jeffrey Epstein, he's going to have Pam Bondi move to unseal the grand jury proceedings.

00:20:32.180 That's a reference to the grand jury proceedings that led to the Jeffrey Epstein indictment and the one that led to the Ghislaine Maxwell indictment, which, you know, I think is something, but not really.

00:20:44.180 I mean, first of all, the judge can easily say no.

00:20:46.100 It's not really up to the attorney general.

00:20:48.560 Like the judge can just say no, because those are secret for a reason.

00:20:52.400 Defense like Jeffrey Epstein in that case, Ghislaine Maxwell and her case, they never got to see the grand jury proceedings.

00:20:57.920 They those are really secret for a reason.

00:21:00.180 So I just like even the defendant doesn't get to find out usually what happened in the proceeding.

00:21:05.900 So the judge could easily say no.

00:21:07.600 And I think people are looking for a universe of documents outside of what the limited field that was actually used to indict, which would be a much more narrow slice of documents.

00:21:17.480 But listen, like I said yesterday, no amount of disclosures at this point is really going to satisfy President Trump's worst critics.

00:21:24.700 I would love to see more disclosure on Epstein.

00:21:26.460 I don't think the grand jury thing is going to do it, but I don't I don't know what would do it.

00:21:30.180 And frankly, Maureen, now that it's turned into like this Democrat bloodbath into like, let's get him all these fakers who claim that they care about this.

00:21:37.920 I'm really kind of out.

00:21:39.180 I just feel like, all right, you know what?

00:21:41.600 There's never going to be enough disclosure.

00:21:43.640 We're never really going to know what happened on Epstein.

00:21:45.580 And the Democrats are making such a, you know, a mountain out of all this, trying to pin it on Donald Trump like he's, you know, Jeffrey Epstein 2.0 F them.

00:21:57.740 Yeah, I mean, truly, when I heard that thing about the missing minute of video footage from inside the prison and how that is allegedly just a thing that like there's always that missing minute from 1159 to midnight.

00:22:13.880 Yeah, it just it just defies common sense and belief.

00:22:18.820 You know, there's so much about that famous coroner, Mark Bodden.

00:22:23.480 I think if I'm saying his name correctly, has said that, you know, Michael, yeah, that Michael Bodden, excuse me, thank you, that the the the injuries to Epstein's neck were not consistent with a hanging, you know, a suicide.

00:22:36.140 And, you know, we'll never know. We're never going to know.

00:22:39.400 Frankly, the theory that's been floated on your show seems to make the most sense to me that he was an agent of Mossad and or the CIA.

00:22:46.720 Yeah, an agent or asset in some way.

00:22:50.240 That makes perfect sense to me, too.

00:22:51.600 Right. Like that somebody decided he needed to go or they were going to help him go or they got somebody in the prison to help him along.

00:22:59.400 But even, you know, the Mike Francesi, he was a former mobster, a great guy.

00:23:05.800 He's got a very successful YouTube show. He's been on this program.

00:23:07.940 I kind of love this guy. He was out there saying on News Nation this week that can't happen.

00:23:14.800 And you can't it's like virtually impossible. He'd been in this prison.

00:23:17.620 He's like for a guy to actually successfully hang himself in a prison cell is near impossible.

00:23:23.340 And there's no way this like if feet, you know, soft handed little billionaire financier guy had skills that like my people, Mike is saying, don't have and managed to get her done.

00:23:36.820 So, look, I just think it's a big mystery, but I'm getting very irritated that this is turning into like a left wing desire to say Trump is Epstein 2.0 bullshit.

00:23:48.280 That's such bull. There's such fucking dishonest cretins.

00:23:51.040 The scandal, if there is one, is that there's probably more to know about Epstein and that Trump's attorney general has been promising there's more and she would deliver it.

00:24:00.680 And then instead of saying I was wrong, issued the two page memo in the dark of night.

00:24:05.340 That's the story. The story is not Trump is Epstein.

00:24:08.740 Trump likes minors. Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump.

00:24:11.760 And I just feel like I'm out there.

00:24:14.420 It's been turned into a Democrat led scandal about Trump being an Epstein type.

00:24:21.060 That's bullshit. I've refused to participate or fuel that fire.

00:24:24.560 So we'll see. We'll see what, if anything, they disclose.

00:24:27.600 But it's crossed over to the point of absurd now.

00:24:31.320 OK, there's there's more to discuss.

00:24:33.280 There's a lot more to discuss.

00:24:34.240 Like Stephen Colbert's show has been canceled.

00:24:37.960 That's like it's great. Great news, is it not?

00:24:41.400 This is incredible on so many levels.

00:24:43.580 And I'm going to call him on this for the mail.

00:24:47.060 But so I was reading there's this New York.

00:24:48.760 This is such a New York Times way to cover it.

00:24:50.920 So they they talked to this guy in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, who was out having dinner and got the alert on his phone that the Colbert show has been canceled.

00:25:01.760 And he sprung up like he got he was Batman getting the bat signal and got on the subway and rode it right up to the Ed Sullivan Theater to mourn with Colbert's like three other fans up there.

00:25:13.300 It's amazing.

00:25:14.520 It says everything about the irrelevance of the show.

00:25:16.700 That is amazing.

00:25:19.380 And let me tell you something else.

00:25:20.620 This just hit from reporter Matt Bellany, founding partner, Puck News and formerly Hollywood reporter.

00:25:29.700 The timing and optics, he says, are terrible for the Colbert cancellation.

00:25:34.080 Not true.

00:25:34.820 Not true.

00:25:35.720 Not true.

00:25:36.980 The timing and optics are perfect.

00:25:38.700 Only leftists think that the timing and optics are terrible because they think somehow this was retaliatory because Stephen Colbert was ripping on CBS for entering into that 16 million dollar settlement with Donald Trump, who was suing them over the 60 minutes.

00:25:52.700 Kamala Harris interview and the edited clips claiming it was a deceptive practice under Texas law.

00:25:58.120 So they settled the case for 16 million bucks because, frankly, it's obvious they have a merger going on right now where their parent company, Paramount, is trying to sell itself to Skydance and they need approval by Trump's FCC.

00:26:13.680 And the belief is that they just paid what to them is a drop in the bucket to make Trump go away on this lawsuit.

00:26:20.680 OK, fine.

00:26:21.320 Well, Colbert went out there and cried.

00:26:23.400 Do we have him ripping on it?

00:26:24.880 I don't think we have that.

00:26:25.780 But anyway, he went on there recently and he ripped on his own employer for the settlement.

00:26:30.720 And that's why the left is like, oh, the optics are terrible.

00:26:33.640 Like this is clearly just like they fired Colbert to satisfy Trump.

00:26:38.940 Number one, if that's true, you can put another feather in Trump's cap for doing something great and making America great again.

00:26:44.920 OK, number two, there's zero proof to that effect whatsoever.

00:26:49.860 And Sherry Redstone, who is the head of CBS, has known that Colbert is a chief Trump antagonist and that Trump hates Colbert since the beginning of Colbert and Trump.

00:27:00.100 As, you know, dual public figures and has not fired Colbert, has renewed him time and time again, including recently for a three year deal when she must have known this this merger was in the works.

00:27:11.400 So, like, it doesn't make sense to me.

00:27:12.780 But here's why I raised the Matt Bellany report here.

00:27:16.300 It's not for his prelude, with which I disagree.

00:27:19.220 He says, Stephen, but he says Colbert's show costs more than a hundred million dollars a year to produce and is losing more than 40 million dollars a year.

00:27:31.200 That's unbelievable.

00:27:32.580 So net net, it takes in about 60.

00:27:35.640 It's losing 40 million dollars a year.

00:27:38.820 He writes CBS execs had been mulling for a long time whether to pull the plug.

00:27:44.680 This is amazing for so for so many reasons, but culturally, it's so indicative of it's another nail in the coffin for legacy media.

00:27:52.320 And they're not it's not just that they're canceling Colbert.

00:27:55.500 They're pulling this.

00:27:56.620 They're killing the show altogether.

00:27:58.000 Now, late night talk shows have been in America's living rooms basically since the birth of television.

00:28:05.180 And we've been hearing rumblings over at ABC that they're none too pleased with Jimmy Kimmel's performance.

00:28:10.200 And he's the next one to go.

00:28:12.200 Jimmy Fallon is down to four days a night.

00:28:14.480 And there have been rumors that his show is on the chopping block.

00:28:17.540 Seth Meyers, who is in the 1230 slot at NBC, had to fire his band as a cost cutting measure.

00:28:23.880 Ellen DeGeneres lost her show.

00:28:25.560 She's out of the country.

00:28:26.860 Oprah has become a joke in the culture.

00:28:30.340 Kelly Clarkson, who is the last remaining monocultural daytime talk show, is losing her mind over there.

00:28:36.260 That show is apparently whether it's the jab plus the schedule.

00:28:40.300 She is in a meltdown for the ages.

00:28:44.620 She just canceled her Las Vegas residency Adele style like a minute before she was supposed to take the stage.

00:28:50.820 Oh, yeah.

00:28:51.480 So it's just it's a it's a it's a dying format.

00:28:54.700 It's a dying art form.

00:28:56.040 People are going to YouTube, to the digital lane elsewhere.

00:29:00.460 Finally, with Stephen Colbert.

00:29:01.980 I mean, he is such a school marm.

00:29:03.900 He is such a hectoring, humorless lecturer.

00:29:09.000 Hardworking people at the end of their night do not want to be lectured by the likes of a be spectacled Stephen Colbert projecting from his diaphragm.

00:29:17.020 They want some laughs.

00:29:18.260 They want some stuff to go down easy.

00:29:19.960 And they want to be lulled to sleep.

00:29:21.880 He's not the guy.

00:29:23.640 No, here's a sample of what his show looked like in recent months.

00:29:28.580 And this this I would submit to you is why Stephen Colbert show is no more.

00:29:34.180 What's going on in L.A. reminds us that as citizens, it is crucial to speak out against Trump's fascist impulses, his rampant corruption and his egregious violations of our norms and our laws.

00:29:46.740 The last time a president bypassed a governor to send in the National Guard was 1965, when L.B.J. used troops to protect civil rights demonstrators in Alabama.

00:29:57.400 So we've come full circle.

00:29:58.560 Troops were deployed to protect protesters by Lyndon B. Johnson, and now they're being used to threaten protesters by Donald B. Dick.

00:30:09.140 Today, we learned that U.S. intelligence has determined Iran's stockpile of enriched uranium was not destroyed and their centrifuges are largely intact.

00:30:19.340 Oops-a-nookie.

00:30:21.880 So less Operation Midnight Hammer and more Operation MC Hammer.

00:30:28.560 Oh, my God.

00:30:29.800 So dumb.

00:30:30.900 Maureen is a writer.

00:30:31.660 That is a terrible joke.

00:30:34.360 A hundred million dollars to produce that?

00:30:36.740 Are you kidding me?

00:30:37.680 He should go.

00:30:38.340 He should take a meeting over at MSNBC and see if he can get Jen Psaki's failing slot.

00:30:43.460 You know, that seems like more the natural environment for him.

00:30:46.940 That's what he wants.

00:30:48.120 He doesn't want laughs.

00:30:49.240 He wants applause for political hit pieces, which he really loves to do.

00:30:53.460 So great.

00:30:54.400 Like, why don't we just acknowledge that and stop pretending he's a comedian who is in the business of being funny?

00:30:59.080 He isn't.

00:30:59.860 And then he puts on politicians.

00:31:01.600 He doesn't cross-examine them in any way.

00:31:03.400 You know, he doesn't hold his own or hold his salt against people like Kamala Harris by bringing up things that are diametrically opposed to what he's being told.

00:31:10.680 So I don't know.

00:31:11.180 Well, I mean, so he will fit in perfectly on MS, by the way.

00:31:14.740 I mentioned that the left is freaking out.

00:31:18.120 You and not just like the normal left.

00:31:19.880 I'm talking about like political people are weighing in.

00:31:23.080 Elizabeth Warren's having a meltdown.

00:31:25.360 Stacey Abrams having a meltdown right now on X because they think this was punishment for I mentioned this bit where he ripped on the Paramount settlement with Trump.

00:31:35.320 Here he was on Monday.

00:31:38.060 Sat one.

00:31:38.500 While I was on vacation, my parent corporation, Paramount, paid Donald Trump a $16 million settlement over his 60 Minutes lawsuit.

00:31:48.860 Now, I believe this kind of complicated financial settlement with a sitting government official has a technical name in legal circles.

00:31:55.900 It's Big Fat Bribe.

00:31:57.100 Because this all comes as Paramount's owners are trying to get the Trump administration to approve the sale of our network to a new owner, Skydance.

00:32:08.500 Not the music I was expecting.

00:32:11.280 Okay.

00:32:12.460 That was me dancing in the sky.

00:32:15.760 And some of the TV typers out there are blogging that once Skydance gets CBS, the new owner's desire to please Trump could put pressure on late night host and frequent Trump critic Stephen Colbert.

00:32:27.820 Okay, okay, but how are they going to put pressure on Stephen Colbert if they can't find him?

00:32:38.600 Oh, my God.

00:32:43.880 It's not funny.

00:32:46.060 It's not clever.

00:32:48.200 It also just goes to the sheer hubris.

00:32:50.920 Like, he thinks he's bigger than his bosses.

00:32:53.700 He thinks he's bigger than CBS and Paramount and this merger that they've been trying to make happen forever with Skydance.

00:33:01.480 And they're going to get it done.

00:33:02.500 It seems like they are determined to get this done.

00:33:04.860 And he goes on there and he's like, look at me.

00:33:07.820 I'm such a rebel.

00:33:08.660 You can't silence me.

00:33:09.720 You won't find me.

00:33:11.060 Again, like, who is he serving other than the ego of Stephen Colbert?

00:33:15.960 And I'm so glad he brought up that Kamala interview, too.

00:33:19.000 Sorry.

00:33:19.420 But, like, remember she went on.

00:33:21.180 It was, like, days before the election, maybe a week.

00:33:23.060 And you could see him having the realization in real time this woman's a moron.

00:33:27.420 I can't get her to complete a thought.

00:33:28.840 He was trying to spoon feed her, you know, some rhetoric.

00:33:33.060 And she wouldn't take it.

00:33:34.120 She wouldn't take it.

00:33:36.140 She was doing some of her fake accents at the time.

00:33:39.120 He was probably taken aback by who he was dealing with.

00:33:41.600 Is Jamaican Kamala here?

00:33:43.520 Is it Latina Kamala?

00:33:45.040 We have no idea.

00:33:46.380 No, he was trying to get her, like, back off of what she said on The View about not disowning any of Joe Biden's positions.

00:33:52.480 And she wouldn't take the bait.

00:33:54.000 It was just, look, he's a terrible man.

00:33:56.660 I really think he's just not a good guy.

00:33:58.260 I mean, he completely took that show, which was a great sort of platform in nighttime television, and the Ed Sullivan Theater, and completely drove it into the ground.

00:34:08.360 He had originally been at Comedy Central, where he was more comedy.

00:34:12.660 And when he moved over to CBS, he decided to be more pundit.

00:34:16.520 He desperately wanted to be Keith Olbermann.

00:34:18.920 And guess what?

00:34:19.940 Keith Olbermann is a failure.

00:34:21.600 And now so are you, Stephen Colbert.

00:34:23.440 And they were paying him $15 million a year for that nonsense that we just witnessed, for him to dance around with vaccine needles during the COVID pandemic, which we all knew was controversial.

00:34:37.120 But no, the left had decided that they were some sort of Eucharist.

00:34:41.160 And for $15 million a year on a show that's losing $40 million a year, he had to see the writing on the wall.

00:34:48.720 In fact, you could make a good argument that he went out there on that Monday and did that so he would have something to point back to as why he got fired when he knew all along his ratings were totally shitty, and he didn't know how to book for late night.

00:35:04.160 His guest, the last night he was on, Maureen, this is late night television.

00:35:08.580 You get a Tom Cruise, right?

00:35:11.100 You get The Rock.

00:35:12.920 You get Julia Roberts or Sidney Sweeney.

00:35:16.440 That is how you do late night TV.

00:35:18.240 Look who he led with his last night on the air.

00:35:21.640 Watch.

00:35:23.420 Ever since I led his first impeachment, he's threatened me with jail and prosecution and calling me a traitor, accusing me of treason, blah, blah, blah.

00:35:32.740 He coerced Republicans into centering me in the House and now the latest attack on me.

00:35:36.860 So I just want to direct this, if this is the right camera, or maybe that's the right camera.

00:35:40.620 That's the right camera up there.

00:35:42.300 Donald, piss off.

00:35:47.000 Oh, oh, but I, uh, I, I, what did I do this?

00:35:58.640 I'm, I'm motorizing now, I don't know.

00:36:01.140 But I, wait.

00:36:02.560 Yes, yes, yes.

00:36:04.860 Um, yes.

00:36:05.860 But, but Donald, before you piss off, would you release the Epstein files?

00:36:14.120 Amazing, that didn't work.

00:36:15.260 It's such secondhand embarrassment watching that for everyone involved, but especially these milquetoast guys who try to like sound so cool and edgy and telling the sitting president of the United States, imagine if anyone on the right had, had done that on the, on late night when Obama was president.

00:36:35.140 I mean, the, the, the outrage we'd be hearing, you know, that kind of rhetoric, Adam Schiff.

00:36:40.320 I mean, I guarantee you, like most people who are schlepping their way through an airport or a hospital waiting room would be like, who's that guy again?

00:36:49.200 Who's that guy?

00:36:50.140 That's like a Sunday morning show guest, you know, like a meet the press or something.

00:36:54.960 It's not a late night, sizzly, exciting, sexy guest.

00:36:59.540 Oh, and the other great thing I meant to, he what?

00:37:02.780 He was the lead.

00:37:04.000 It's one thing if you put him on third, you know, in a, in a longer lineup where you have an actual star leading it.

00:37:09.380 People don't want to tune in to see the lead guest as Adam Schiff.

00:37:13.160 That's his nightmare.

00:37:14.380 It's like.

00:37:14.680 Oh my God.

00:37:16.860 The other great thing I just read before, um, before the show was that apparently Stephen Colbert was informed by his bosses that he was getting the ax just the night before.

00:37:26.240 And that to me sounds like a real humiliation.

00:37:29.700 And that to me sounds like those bosses wanted to really stick it to him because they'd had it with him and his attitude.

00:37:35.020 I would bet behind the scenes.

00:37:36.620 He is a nightmare monster.

00:37:38.080 I would bet.

00:37:39.820 Yeah.

00:37:40.220 Oh, here he is actually speaking to that in SOT 2, where he announced on Thursday night's program that the show had been canceled.

00:37:47.400 Watch.

00:37:48.600 Before we start the show, I want to let you know something that I found out just last night.

00:37:53.400 Next year will be our last season.

00:37:56.160 The network will be ending the late show in May.

00:37:59.760 And.

00:38:07.820 Yeah, I share your feelings.

00:38:09.740 It's not just the end of our show, but it's the end of the late show on CBS.

00:38:14.740 I'm not being replaced.

00:38:16.260 This is all just going away.

00:38:18.260 That's how bad you were.

00:38:19.280 I do want to say.

00:38:20.940 I do want to say that the folks at CBS have been great partners.

00:38:25.200 I'm so grateful to the Tiffany network for giving me this chair and this beautiful theater to call home.

00:38:30.960 And of course, I'm grateful to you, the audience who have joined us.

00:38:38.060 Okay, let me tell you something, Maureen.

00:38:39.740 His numbers were 2.42 million viewers in the overall, and that put him slightly ahead of Jimmy Kimmel, who is at 1.77.

00:38:51.000 And the Tonight Show was in third at 1.19 million.

00:38:56.880 Jimmy.

00:38:57.380 I mean, yeah, Jimmy Fallon has no viewers.

00:39:01.300 I mean, my God, I can't believe he's drawing a million.

00:39:05.040 Guaranteed he's going to be fired.

00:39:06.560 Those numbers are not sustainable because they all these shows cost close to 100 million dollars.

00:39:11.120 They are not cheap to produce.

00:39:12.540 There's zero chance that's that less.

00:39:14.720 But then you look at the 18 to 49 demo where Kimmel was now beating Colbert.

00:39:19.800 It was close.

00:39:20.640 He was at 220,000.

00:39:22.000 But that's a pittance.

00:39:23.300 220,000 in the 18 to 49 year old demo.

00:39:26.540 And Colbert had 219,000.

00:39:29.720 Fallon bringing up a distant rear at 157,000.

00:39:35.900 And let me just tell you what Greg Gutfeld is getting over on Fox, where if the budget for that show is 10 million, it's a lot.

00:39:42.780 Excluding Greg's salary, which I'm going to guess is better than that.

00:39:47.240 But in any event, 3.29 million.

00:39:51.080 Greg Gutfeld gets 3.29 million.

00:39:53.440 Any of these other guys would beg for 3.29 million.

00:39:57.900 And in the 18 to 49 year old demo, an average of 238,000.

00:40:03.040 Higher than all of them for a fraction of the cost.

00:40:07.140 Because, yes, Greg gets political, but he never forgets the number one rule is to make people laugh.

00:40:15.620 Exactly.

00:40:16.680 You know, the interesting thing about Fallon having the lowest ratings is that he's the most apolitical of them all.

00:40:23.120 You know, if anything, his show is just watching him, you know, kiss ass for all of his.

00:40:29.400 I mean, that's also really embarrassing and difficult to watch.

00:40:32.460 It's really painful.

00:40:33.220 And then he plays these idiotic games with them, and it's just, it's, the whole thing, it just feels old.

00:40:40.320 It feels philosophically, spiritually, contextually for the modern age we're in, it just feels old.

00:40:47.680 All of these guys, they're just whistling past their own graveyards.

00:40:50.760 It's a matter of time.

00:40:51.680 That's so right.

00:40:52.200 Before they all get pulled.

00:40:54.420 That's so exactly right.

00:40:55.660 I've watched some Kimmel.

00:40:56.880 I mean, sorry, I don't watch Kimmel.

00:40:58.340 I can't stand him.

00:40:59.220 Um, the best thing I can say about Jimmy Kimmel is that he's friends with Adam Carolla, who's a truly decent, honorable, great guy.

00:41:04.920 But, um, Kimmel doesn't strike me that way.

00:41:07.700 But Fallon is not a bad guy.

00:41:10.160 Fallon is a sweetheart.

00:41:11.520 But Fallon's shtick is completely empty and has lost all sense of entertainment.

00:41:18.200 He's, I take him out of the three of them any day of the week.

00:41:20.840 But Fallon's programming, forgive me, it's not smart.

00:41:23.860 In no way is it intellectually engaging.

00:41:26.360 And while he used to be genuinely funny, like when he first got on, I think he was hungrier or something.

00:41:30.760 Maybe he had better writers.

00:41:31.740 I don't know.

00:41:32.540 But now it just seems completely phoned in.

00:41:35.260 He's not that funny in the moment.

00:41:37.100 He's not.

00:41:37.520 I hate to say it because I really think he's a sweet guy.

00:41:39.580 And I knew him at NBC a bit.

00:41:41.000 And he was one of the highlights there because he's, he's not a bad guy, unlike Kimmel and certainly unlike Colbert.

00:41:46.100 But that doesn't work.

00:41:47.900 And you mentioned Oprah.

00:41:49.160 It really is the same thing.

00:41:50.300 In the same way these guys are doing the same thing they were doing 15 years ago, and it's just not working anymore.

00:41:57.860 She's still out there thinking she's just as relevant as she was in 1994, trying to, like, think she, she thinks she can drive a presidential election.

00:42:06.600 You know, she thinks she's the answer to Kamala Harris's problems.

00:42:09.540 She still thinks she's going to be the one who does, like, the big sit down on this, that, the other thing, Osempic, whatever it is.

00:42:16.240 And she'll be the leader of the national.

00:42:17.740 No one gives two shits what Oprah thinks about anything anymore.

00:42:22.320 They don't.

00:42:23.080 And, in fact, Oprah has completely destroyed her own branch through her own making.

00:42:27.260 Over at the Nerve, we're, like, dedicated to hitting her good and hard at least once a month.

00:42:32.520 She deserves it.

00:42:33.200 But, um, thank you.

00:42:35.100 But, you know, did you, I don't know if you happen to see this photo for, I mean, it says everything.

00:42:39.360 To me, I was, like, these are the three horsewomen of the apocalypse.

00:42:43.300 We've got Gail, who was last seen tying Oprah's shoelaces, literally, at the Bezos-Sanchez wedding.

00:42:51.320 Amazing photo.

00:42:52.380 Backward took it.

00:42:53.240 So, Gail, in the center, and Oprah's on the right, and in the center is one Kris Jenner.

00:42:59.880 And they are modeling $228 designer caftans, a collaboration, I believe, between Roberto Cavalli and Skims, Kim K's brand.

00:43:11.580 You know, so this is what they're spending their cultural currency on, you know, hanging around the likes of Kris Jenner and going into space with Lauren Sanchez and just befouling Venice at that obscenity of a wedding.

00:43:24.560 And then Oprah's going to turn around and come back to the United States and tell us how to live our lives, our best lives, and how to be, you know, arbiters of moral rectitude.

00:43:32.740 I mean, F off.

00:43:34.440 Mm-hmm.

00:43:34.780 And then her failure of a friend, Gail.

00:43:38.040 Like, Gail is obviously in the host position at CBS News in the morning because she's Oprah's best friend.

00:43:43.520 Everybody knows that.

00:43:44.980 Nobody knows what Gail has accomplished on her own.

00:43:47.280 She was a newswoman in Baltimore when Oprah was, and they became best friends lifelong.

00:43:51.420 And that's why you see her at the Jeff Bezos wedding, because she's Oprah's plus one.

00:43:57.800 You never see Stedman.

00:43:58.860 It's always Gail, Gail, Gail, Gail, who gloms on to Oprah's, you know, coattails and gets herself on the David Geffen yacht and has used that to sort of get access to celebrities and celebrity interviews so that she can have a career.

00:44:14.600 Now, Gail is just as, I mean, she's a, she's in a star effort.

00:44:19.120 That's what Gail is.

00:44:20.120 That's why she said yes to go to Lauren Sanchez's wedding.

00:44:23.760 They don't know Lauren Sanchez.

00:44:25.300 Neither one of them knows Lauren Sanchez.

00:44:26.680 She got invited to go up in Blue Origin, undoubtedly because they thought that would lead CBS News to cover it.

00:44:33.360 Gail, as we all know, I mean, those of us who have been in particular know she humiliated herself.

00:44:39.580 She insisted people start calling her an astronaut and acknowledge how inspirational she was.

00:44:44.840 And she's circling the drain now, too, in the ratings over at CBS.

00:44:48.380 So CBS has got a lot of problems up and down its lineup, as you point out.

00:44:52.360 Colbert, chief among them.

00:44:53.960 And if they really want any sort of a future in the very limited time there is left for broadcast TV, then they really will have to change their approach across the board.

00:45:03.700 They will.

00:45:05.460 I hope that the Colbert firing augers the inevitable and hopefully undistinguished embarrassing firing of Gail King.

00:45:13.440 I mean, to your point about Stedman, I think it's time to do a wellness check on Stedman.

00:45:18.140 I think it's possible that Gail and Oprah have buried the body on the estate in Montecito.

00:45:25.540 We have not seen him in months.

00:45:27.940 It's kind of like David Miscavige, you know, the head of Scientology, like the where's Sherry?

00:45:32.760 Where's Shelly?

00:45:33.120 Nobody's seen the Shelly.

00:45:34.420 Nobody's seen the wife in like 15 years.

00:45:38.420 Yeah, it's true.

00:45:39.520 Shelly's with Stedman.

00:45:40.640 We don't know where.

00:45:43.020 Like, all right.

00:45:43.680 Now we have a couple of minutes before the break.

00:45:45.500 Let me try to squeeze this in because I do want to get to Barbara when we come back.

00:45:49.260 Um, you, did you see the kiss cam disaster at the Coldplay concert?

00:45:54.540 As I said to your producer, Steve, um, it's the most interesting thing Coldplay has ever done.

00:46:04.760 So noted.

00:46:07.120 So it turns out, okay, this is the head of this company called Astronomer, which I guess is an AI company

00:46:12.260 with the head of his HR.

00:46:14.700 Oh, the irony.

00:46:15.740 Clearly having what looks like an affair and caught on the kiss cam inadvertently at the

00:46:20.080 Coldplay concert.

00:46:20.780 I didn't realize the reason it went viral is because one of the Coldplay fans was filming

00:46:25.300 the kiss cam moment and put it out on her social media and it caught on like, so it was really a

00:46:31.940 civilian who, who wound up drawing all this attention to them.

00:46:35.560 And reportedly this guy is not well liked at his own company.

00:46:39.360 There's a former employee who's out there online.

00:46:41.840 He could be disgruntled.

00:46:42.600 We don't know the circumstances under which he left, but he says his chat,

00:46:45.740 chat chain with all the employees at Astronomer, they're laughing their asses off, enjoying

00:46:51.540 what's happening to this CEO, whose wife has reportedly now dropped her married name on

00:46:57.680 her Facebook page and left comments open.

00:47:00.680 And seems like she understands exactly what we understood.

00:47:04.220 Taking a look at those two.

00:47:05.880 Why is this so viral?

00:47:07.040 I wonder if it just taps into, you know, this sort of fear, like we live, we live in a surveillance

00:47:16.920 state, you know, so we really do.

00:47:19.280 And that any one of us at any given time could be caught doing something either impolitic or

00:47:25.540 morally dubious and the world suddenly knows about it.

00:47:29.500 And, you know, um, there's a great author named John Ronson who wrote a book about this.

00:47:33.600 There was a, there was like, do you remember the publicist from New York who tweeted out

00:47:38.720 before she boarded a flight?

00:47:40.100 I'm going to Africa.

00:47:41.040 I hope I don't get AIDS.

00:47:42.140 And then she turned her phone off.

00:47:43.800 And when she landed in Africa, she had been canceled and lost her job and her life was

00:47:48.160 over.

00:47:49.100 And I think that this is that writ large kind of, you know, but you're on the kiss cam

00:47:53.660 and your marriage is just blown up and your job is over and life is over.

00:47:58.580 You know, it's like, it's that you're right.

00:48:01.940 It's surveillance state.

00:48:03.140 And it's also just like everyone's nightmare about their spouse.

00:48:06.380 You know, it's like right there in full technicolor in front of you, unsuspecting, but

00:48:12.700 like very PDA, you know, it's like, that's how everybody's commenting.

00:48:16.540 Like if you're going to have an affair, why, why would you go to the Coldplay concert?

00:48:20.660 Like an affair is for a hotel room late at night in like dark corners.

00:48:26.580 It's not at the Coldplay concert.

00:48:29.220 By the way, there is a statement circulating online that people are saying is his, our information

00:48:33.180 is it's fake.

00:48:34.100 So we're not going to report it or go there.

00:48:36.320 But, um, yeah, affairs, I mean, by definition are sort of meant to be hidden.

00:48:40.600 And the boldness of this guy, and yet still the shame when caught.

00:48:46.380 I don't even think it was shame.

00:48:47.840 I think it was, oh, like, oh, oh, like, there's no getting around this.

00:48:51.980 There's no lie.

00:48:53.040 I can tell, like, you can't lie your way out of video.

00:48:55.740 You can't, you know, it's, it's right there in real time.

00:48:58.760 And they both knew their lives in that moment had blown up.

00:49:01.360 And I think for everyone who has ever worked for or is still in corporate America, just

00:49:06.240 the deliciousness of this happening to an HR exec is like unparalleled.

00:49:11.180 It's true.

00:49:11.940 We all hate HR.

00:49:13.120 That's why we don't have HR here at the Megyn Kelly show.

00:49:15.680 Um, but yeah, the nerve of this woman to come in, you know, you look back, I have to say

00:49:19.260 it like his, um, oh God, do I have it here?

00:49:21.840 Do I have time?

00:49:22.440 I know we're up against the clock.

00:49:23.520 So when he hired her, they put out like a press release and I have to tell you, I, maybe

00:49:29.820 I'm crazy, but the like words that were used to celebrate her arrival at the firm were kind

00:49:36.560 of weird.

00:49:37.040 I'm just going to say they jumped out at me.

00:49:38.800 He was like, she's exceptional, deep expertise, such employee engagement.

00:49:44.900 She's got passion for fostering diverse collaborative workplaces.

00:49:48.720 Certainly doesn't look collaborative.

00:49:50.300 She's a perfect fit for astronomer.

00:49:52.640 I don't, maybe I'm just a pervert, but as I read it, he's like, she's a perfect fit.

00:49:57.000 She's energized.

00:49:57.900 She has passion and engagement, deep expertise, exceptional.

00:50:02.080 I'm like, he was telling us something and we just had to read what he said to astronomers.

00:50:06.880 He hired her.

00:50:07.820 My question is the wife would be, when did it start?

00:50:10.320 And also as the person who lost out on the top HR job, when did it start?

00:50:15.680 Did it happen before you brought her in for the top job here or after?

00:50:19.480 Cause she hasn't been there very long.

00:50:20.780 Yeah.

00:50:21.720 And you know, the other thing that's really refreshing about this story is seeing the

00:50:25.000 wife immediately drop the husband's surname and leave her comments on and make it very

00:50:30.240 clear that there is no path back.

00:50:32.340 There is no sort of, you know, we live in this world of like my truth and like my version

00:50:36.820 and like, it's not, you know, and she, she, she saw what she saw and she's like, that's

00:50:40.740 it.

00:50:40.880 And if you look at the wife, she's much more attractive than the affair partner.

00:50:44.680 Just saying she's very attractive and she's the mother of his two children back right

00:50:49.380 away.

00:50:49.880 Maureen's with us for the full show.

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00:51:51.020 All right, let's, let's go on Barbara Walters.

00:51:53.700 Let's do this thing.

00:51:54.820 There is a new documentary out on Hulu about Barbara and it is called tell me everything.

00:52:04.680 Barbara Walters, tell me everything.

00:52:07.520 Here is the trailer.

00:52:08.460 Are you sorry you didn't burn the tapes?

00:52:12.620 Would you ever order anyone killed?

00:52:14.360 No, no, no, please do not interrupt me.

00:52:16.980 I don't care if I'm shiny.

00:52:18.200 I care more about this interview.

00:52:20.660 Whether it was her looks or her voice, just the fact that she was a woman, there were people

00:52:24.320 who just didn't believe in her and she loved proving them wrong.

00:52:28.120 Okay, let's go.

00:52:29.020 Her job was the love of her life.

00:52:31.180 But are you afraid of sharing emotions?

00:52:33.200 There's certain things I just don't enjoy sharing.

00:52:35.660 What's there to know?

00:52:36.300 You would drive me nuts and I would drive you crazy because I would be saying, but you know.

00:52:39.960 Well, we could try it and see if it worked out.

00:52:41.560 I think we'll stop and reload.

00:52:51.720 Right now, ladies and gentlemen, let me introduce to you one of America's top news correspondents

00:52:55.380 whose provocative interviews have riveted television viewers.

00:53:00.080 Would you welcome Barbara Walters?

00:53:01.580 Okay, first of all, they stole that song from Bombshell, which is a movie I'm familiar with.

00:53:09.600 Yes, so that was not the greatest choice.

00:53:12.880 But second of all, okay, the reason I really want to get into this is because I heard you

00:53:17.020 talk about Barbara Walters and his show on your show and I agreed with everything you said

00:53:22.260 and I want to talk about that.

00:53:24.360 But I also want to talk about like the full picture of this woman because she's a very

00:53:29.380 interesting figure in our culture was, but her legacy remains and it's very complex in

00:53:35.820 some ways and it's like this is a person who I admired in some ways and whom I'll be honest,

00:53:44.220 I judged in some other harsh ways who I know some things about behind the scenes that I'll

00:53:52.340 share with you today and whose decision-making I think was understandable but very controversial,

00:54:01.860 very controversial, especially when you look at it through a 2025 lens and all we've learned about

00:54:06.440 the choices women make.

00:54:08.420 So anyway, that's where I'm coming in on this.

00:54:11.420 But let's kick it off with where you were on your show and you were spot on talking about how

00:54:17.100 when you look back through a 2025 lens at the questions that really made Barbara Walters

00:54:22.380 a star.

00:54:23.160 In part, it was these questions that she would ask that nobody else would ask.

00:54:26.640 You realize she was kind of an asshole.

00:54:30.580 The questions were very nasty all the time.

00:54:35.040 Like often she said it with a smile and sort of the velvet glove, but they weren't nice.

00:54:40.180 You called attention to this one.

00:54:41.800 I'll play it here.

00:54:42.580 It's her with Bette Midler, SOT32.

00:54:47.860 What do you think of the way you look?

00:54:49.340 I think I look great.

00:54:50.620 No, no kidding.

00:54:51.480 Why do I say no kidding?

00:54:52.600 Yeah, hey.

00:54:54.020 Because.

00:54:55.200 Hey, hey.

00:54:56.740 Get out of my house.

00:54:57.720 I ask you, would you say that to Bo Derek?

00:54:59.160 Yeah.

00:54:59.680 Because everything that I've read about you, you always talk about how when you were a

00:55:02.840 kid you thought you were so ugly.

00:55:04.720 You really think you're too?

00:55:05.580 I think I look great.

00:55:06.840 Just a plea for sympathy.

00:55:08.580 So you should always get the crowd on your side, you know.

00:55:11.620 You think you're sexy on the scale of one to 10?

00:55:14.880 What do you do?

00:55:16.880 What am I on a scale of one to 10?

00:55:20.540 Oh, I, I think I'm about a 55.

00:55:23.120 I don't know.

00:55:24.200 I think I'm a happening girl.

00:55:25.860 I mean, good for Ben for laughing it off and handling it very well, I have to say.

00:55:35.060 Got to give her a tap at the tip of the hat.

00:55:36.820 But wow.

00:55:37.700 It's so mean.

00:55:40.800 And you see this as a thread.

00:55:42.540 I mean, I'm so happy we're talking about this.

00:55:44.740 I really was dying to talk to you about it because she, as you said, she, it's so complicated

00:55:49.960 because I too grew up watching Barbara Walters and those primetime celebrity and political

00:55:55.820 interviews she did.

00:55:57.200 You know, I'm looking at her like it was her and Mary Tyler Moore, you know, like I could

00:56:02.400 do this someday if she could do it, you know.

00:56:05.340 And you see when you, when you watch these back, the threat, the dark thread of cruelty

00:56:13.260 and meanness, it's especially directed at women she's interviewing who you sense she

00:56:19.940 is deeply envious of for one reason or another.

00:56:22.820 She did the same thing to Elizabeth Taylor.

00:56:25.520 It's in the documentary.

00:56:26.680 One of the greatest beauties of, of the, of the 20th century.

00:56:31.560 And she got Liz when Liz was very vulnerable.

00:56:36.200 We have it in 1977, SOT 35.

00:56:40.300 You take it on the back end.

00:56:42.180 Are you worried about putting on weight?

00:56:43.800 No.

00:56:44.260 Oh yeah.

00:56:44.640 Does it matter to you?

00:56:45.780 No, it doesn't.

00:56:46.720 Cause I'm so happy and I enjoy eating.

00:56:49.020 I like to cook and I enjoy eating.

00:56:52.000 And you wouldn't care if you got fat.

00:56:54.440 I am fat.

00:56:55.700 Now.

00:56:56.680 Wish I got.

00:56:57.520 Yeah.

00:56:57.900 I didn't want to say it.

00:56:58.740 I can hardly get into any of my.

00:57:00.060 I didn't want to say it.

00:57:04.580 Yeah, she did.

00:57:06.040 She did.

00:57:06.740 And I love Liz for that.

00:57:08.180 I love Liz Taylor for so many reasons, but she was one of the most vulnerable, raw celebrities,

00:57:13.800 public figures.

00:57:14.740 She would, she would cop to so much.

00:57:16.880 She really went through it.

00:57:18.740 And she was the first real voice out there when AIDS exploded.

00:57:23.440 She was the first celebrity with the guts to say, you know, let's not stigmatize gay

00:57:28.880 men.

00:57:29.520 You know, this is bullshit.

00:57:31.160 Anyway.

00:57:31.580 Barbara did it again to, to Liz, who's sitting there with the Senator John Warner, who Liz

00:57:37.420 dated, but who Barbara dated before Liz married him.

00:57:41.640 And then who Barbara went back to after Liz divorced him.

00:57:44.920 So there's all this kind of real psychological darkness.

00:57:48.120 And what I, I wish I had touched on the interview she did with Dolly Parton, again, one of the

00:57:53.580 most beloved women in America, a great beauty at the height of her beauty, youth power.

00:58:00.540 She says to Dolly, you know, where I come from, Dolly, we would call people like you and

00:58:06.640 your family hillbillies.

00:58:09.600 What do you have to say to that?

00:58:13.520 That's right.

00:58:14.200 Dolly handles her like a pro, you know, she handles her like a pro and she said, we have

00:58:18.100 a lot of pride.

00:58:20.120 I'm sorry.

00:58:21.600 No, no, we have, um, we have a little montage of some of her more controversial questions

00:58:26.640 and exchanges.

00:58:27.620 I think that's in there.

00:58:28.860 Let's watch it.

00:58:29.440 Top 30.

00:58:30.780 What do you think of the way you look?

00:58:32.300 Do you think you're sexy?

00:58:33.360 I know I'm sexy.

00:58:34.580 But on the scale of one to 10, what do you do?

00:58:37.540 Brooke, what are your measurements?

00:58:38.700 Do you have any secrets from your mother?

00:58:40.660 Dolly, where I come from, what I have called you a hillbilly.

00:58:45.220 Is it all you?

00:58:46.240 Did you think you were good looking?

00:58:48.940 No.

00:58:50.580 Why didn't you have your nose fixed?

00:58:52.360 Everybody must have said to you, have your nose fixed.

00:58:54.360 How did you know it was going to be right?

00:58:55.980 Are you happy with your wife?

00:58:57.340 Martha, why do so many people hate you?

00:58:59.460 Each and every one of us has people that love us and people that hate us.

00:59:03.760 No, not everybody has people who hate them.

00:59:06.440 You know, you could stop these rumors.

00:59:08.700 You could say, as many artists have, yes, I am gay.

00:59:14.820 Or you could say, no, I'm not.

00:59:17.500 Or you could leave it as you are, ambiguous.

00:59:20.960 A little overweight.

00:59:22.000 More than a little.

00:59:23.280 Yeah.

00:59:23.660 Yeah.

00:59:25.060 Why?

00:59:25.660 Do you try to diet?

00:59:27.120 There are people who say that you couldn't be president because you're so heavy.

00:59:31.220 I know you don't want to talk about guys and I won't push it, but how are you going to find anybody?

00:59:35.280 You don't really act.

00:59:36.780 You don't sing.

00:59:37.820 You don't dance.

00:59:38.620 You don't have any talent.

00:59:40.620 Forgive me.

00:59:41.280 Any talent.

00:59:43.480 Okay.

00:59:44.360 Sorry, but that was the Kardashians.

00:59:46.120 I'll give her that last one.

00:59:48.240 But you are sensing a theme.

00:59:51.380 You are sensing a theme.

00:59:53.420 And it's a very, it's amazing how she got away with that.

00:59:58.000 And it's amazing the celebrities who sort of, you know, because she had this MO.

01:00:02.600 She would ramp up to it.

01:00:04.180 You know, it was all softballs and we're just having drinks.

01:00:07.420 It's the girls chatting, chatting, chatting, and then bam, she whams you.

01:00:11.640 You don't think you're ugly?

01:00:13.600 To an original talent like Bette Midler, who probably heard it from a million casting executives.

01:00:19.560 Like, you know, or Barbara Streisand.

01:00:21.800 You know why she didn't want to fix her nose, Barbara?

01:00:23.700 Because she had a one in a generation voice and she probably didn't want to mess with it.

01:00:27.860 She didn't want to risk losing her gift.

01:00:30.560 Are you kidding?

01:00:31.900 She would never have survived in the social media age where just people will not have it.

01:00:36.720 She would have gotten it from the rest of us for being so, so darn mean.

01:00:43.000 Yeah.

01:00:43.720 I mean, it was what, ironically, it was one of the things we all kind of liked about her interviews

01:00:48.340 because you didn't know where they were going to go.

01:00:50.900 She would ask the forbidden question and you were like, and then you watched it.

01:00:55.240 And sometimes it led to gold.

01:00:57.800 I mean, I don't take it with a grain of salt the way I'm saying it,

01:01:01.420 but I'm going to show you an interview where, you know, her, her willingness to ask the impertinent question

01:01:07.160 really unearthed something big that turned into a huge story.

01:01:11.540 And it was when she sat down with Mike Tyson and his then wife, Robin Given.

01:01:15.740 Here's a little bit of that.

01:01:17.220 Given's top 34.

01:01:18.460 Does he hit you?

01:01:22.600 He shakes.

01:01:23.740 He pushes.

01:01:24.700 He swings.

01:01:28.220 He, sometimes I think he's trying to scare me.

01:01:31.660 There were times when, or there were times that it happened when I thought I could handle it, you know.

01:01:38.640 And just recently I've become afraid.

01:01:42.680 I mean, very, very much afraid.

01:01:44.360 I wanted to do this interview with the two of you together.

01:01:46.400 I could have talked to Robin outside and you outside, but I wanted you to hear this

01:01:50.020 because I wanted people to understand.

01:01:52.940 And you're sitting here and listening to this.

01:01:55.460 This is a situation in which I'm dealing with my illness.

01:01:59.700 Hmm.

01:02:00.940 So like her powers could, could be used for good, you know, like just that willingness to go anywhere.

01:02:08.020 And be sort of fearless in asking these questions.

01:02:11.660 It was part of a more complete package that worked on television.

01:02:17.020 It did.

01:02:18.020 You know, I was reminded by somebody, um, cause I remember that interview so vividly.

01:02:23.460 It made, of course it made tons of headlines.

01:02:25.940 This was long before Tyson was arrested, tried and convicted of rape.

01:02:31.220 Um, that in the aftermath of that interview,

01:02:35.940 the person who was really vilified was Robin Givens.

01:02:39.960 Yeah.

01:02:40.500 It was Robin Givens who caught a lot of flack for like, how dare you try to imply that this,

01:02:47.040 um, poor guy from, you know, an underprivileged background who clawed his way out and is a prize

01:02:53.120 fighter, but maybe not as smart as you.

01:02:54.700 How dare you try to destroy his reputation with these baseless claims that, you know,

01:02:59.480 she really walked right up to saying, he beats me, he beats me.

01:03:02.780 And again, like there's so much of that, the way it would play out today would be completely

01:03:07.900 different.

01:03:08.800 Um, you know, Barbara, I believe just left with her camera crew and that night,

01:03:15.140 apparently, um, Givens called 911 because of course Tyson was infuriated by that line

01:03:21.960 of questioning.

01:03:22.760 So there's so much about it.

01:03:24.700 That's just so fascinating to look back and think, you know, where she went right in the

01:03:28.960 culture and what she gave us and where she, she went so, so very wrong.

01:03:34.040 They talk about how, like the thing about Barbara that I respected and I knew her a bit

01:03:38.960 was she came up 100% in a man's world.

01:03:43.100 It was a male dominated industry news entirely, and they did not want her, you know, she started

01:03:49.720 off as a lighter features reporter on the today show where she'd been a writer and she was a good

01:03:55.720 writer.

01:03:56.260 And so they gave her a chance on camera and she, they point out in the, um, documentary,

01:04:01.400 they weren't hiring women who she says look like me.

01:04:05.600 That's what she says.

01:04:06.240 Um, at that time they wanted models, you know, that's what the today show was doing at that

01:04:10.400 time, but Barbara didn't look like a model and she got on because she could write and

01:04:15.900 she was scrappy and she was willing to do the job.

01:04:18.040 And then she started proving herself and she definitely had talent in front of a lens.

01:04:22.800 And as she worked her way up and became a star, I mean, it was, it was like sheer star power

01:04:28.580 because she was talented and she worked hard and made a name for herself at a time when it

01:04:32.840 was very hard to do.

01:04:34.680 Um, she was resented, you know, and they, they put her into the evening news slot and her co-host

01:04:41.280 hated her, hated her guts.

01:04:44.700 Uh, when she left NBC, the today show and went over to ABC and as she thought it was the opportunity

01:04:50.040 of a lifetime, it wasn't.

01:04:52.000 She said it was the most unhappy period of her life because her co-host, I'm forgetting

01:04:55.420 his name right now, um, couldn't stand her and treated her absolutely terribly.

01:05:00.240 And the entire staff hated her because they were more with him.

01:05:02.900 And a woman in the evening news slot was unthinkable to anybody, even though everybody,

01:05:07.300 the country loved Barbara Walters until they put her in that slot, which was for men, not

01:05:12.040 for her.

01:05:12.480 And then ABC got smart and kind of catapulted her to these specials and to 2020 with Hugh

01:05:20.320 Downs.

01:05:20.960 And that's where she really sort of got into the sweet spot of what she could do, you

01:05:24.560 know, like great interviewing, great gets, but the, the thing about Barbara Walters that

01:05:29.540 I just have never been able to get past having read her autobiography audition when it first

01:05:35.100 came out, I think it was 2007 or eight, um, is that it was all she had the, the news, her

01:05:45.640 pursuit of stardom and those who knew her.

01:05:48.960 And they say this in the documentary money power, that was it.

01:05:54.000 That was all she had.

01:05:56.060 Yes.

01:05:56.540 She had a daughter with whom she did not have a good relationship and her quotes about her

01:06:02.480 daughter, both in this documentary where they clearly got her obviously on tape before

01:06:06.580 she passed.

01:06:07.520 This is her daughter, Jackie, who she named after her sister, Jackie, um, are really kind

01:06:12.620 of devastating.

01:06:13.280 She clearly didn't get along with her.

01:06:15.000 I don't think she had much use for her.

01:06:16.680 I don't think she did a lot of mothering of her and she came from sort of a messed up

01:06:22.160 family.

01:06:22.500 She had her older sister who she talks about hating because she was special needs.

01:06:27.100 And frankly, it was a, I mean, it's kind of a courageous admission for her to say, I hated

01:06:34.660 that she was special needs because it kind of ruined my life, my childhood in a way.

01:06:39.100 And then her father had, he made and lost several fortunes.

01:06:42.580 She wrote in her book.

01:06:43.640 He basically was running something that looked like Ziegfeld follies.

01:06:46.580 He started it in Boston.

01:06:47.860 It was very, very popular.

01:06:49.060 He brought it to times square and elsewhere.

01:06:50.460 And it really took off the dancers and the feathers.

01:06:52.780 And she grew up seeing all these celebrities behind the scenes and that's how she got comfortable

01:06:57.520 with them and realized they're just like everybody else.

01:06:59.920 I'm not intimidated by them.

01:07:01.660 They've got interesting stories to tell and you shouldn't put them up in a pedestal, but

01:07:05.120 her father lost fortunes, got in trouble with the law, and she had to work to help support

01:07:10.840 the family, which she also resented.

01:07:13.080 She also says she doesn't know if her mother ever loved her father.

01:07:15.820 So that's a home she came from and the home she created where she had, I think three husbands

01:07:20.600 and one adopted daughter who she never spent time with, who went to a special like home

01:07:25.840 for kids or like school for troubled kids.

01:07:28.560 And I'm going to elaborate on this in a moment.

01:07:30.440 But to me, that's the real tragedy, Maureen, because I think if you look at Oprah and Barbara

01:07:36.360 in this regard, I have to give it to Oprah, who I think realized she would not have been

01:07:45.300 a good mother.

01:07:45.820 She could not be a mother to children and instead, and she talks about having followed

01:07:51.720 Barbara's lead, like to just go full bore in the journalism industry instead.

01:07:56.480 The difference is Barbara did have a child.

01:07:59.160 She adopted a little girl and from all accounts, completely neglected her entirely.

01:08:05.560 And that's what's so sad.

01:08:07.160 She died.

01:08:08.360 All the tributes poured in and people who hadn't read her memoir or didn't know that much about

01:08:13.880 her, just kept praising what a wonderful journalist she was.

01:08:17.900 And all I could think as both the journalist and my mom, myself was it's only half the story.

01:08:23.360 It's only half the story.

01:08:26.020 And it's okay to talk about the other half.

01:08:29.340 I think Barbara Walters would be okay with talking about the most important thing she ever

01:08:34.560 undertook in her life.

01:08:35.880 She completely failed at.

01:08:37.460 You know, Megan, this is such a great point.

01:08:41.500 And I was really horrified by the way she would talk about her daughter.

01:08:45.520 She would talk about her often on The View, the way she would allow the story to be framed

01:08:50.880 in the mainstream media.

01:08:53.720 It would be, how interesting would it have been to interview Barbara Walters in 2025 and ask

01:09:00.080 her the tough questions, the uncomfortable questions that she was so willing to ask other famous

01:09:06.260 women, such as, do you think you were a good mother?

01:09:10.100 Do you think you did all you could to be there for your daughter as she navigated, not just

01:09:16.240 growing up as an adopted child, which is in itself a trauma.

01:09:20.140 It's a very little discussed one in the culture.

01:09:22.320 But you come to a home knowing that your birth parents, your birth mother, at least, has

01:09:29.720 given you away.

01:09:31.520 That is a deep abiding trauma.

01:09:34.700 And Barbara, I theorize, felt like this was the done thing.

01:09:40.780 You were a woman.

01:09:41.820 You had a kid.

01:09:42.900 She adopted a kid.

01:09:44.300 She left that child with the governess.

01:09:46.920 Cynthia McFadden helpfully tells us, by the way, this documentary has not one true friend

01:09:52.180 of Barbara Walters in it, because I don't think she had a single true friend.

01:09:56.960 I think she was so laser focused on becoming famous.

01:10:02.340 And I think it's all wrapped up in this Freudian notion of her father, who was probably cheating

01:10:06.500 on her mother with these beautiful showgirls and preferred to be in nightclubs with celebrities,

01:10:11.400 rather at home with his own children.

01:10:13.740 And when she would get on The View, she would name drop like crazy while saying she didn't

01:10:19.040 care about celebrities.

01:10:20.240 And, you know, I noted that there were two things she would always do on The View.

01:10:24.920 One is she would talk about how every year she shared a birthday with Michael.

01:10:29.980 I mean, every year, of course, they would go to dinner because she, Michael Douglas, and

01:10:33.480 Catherine Zeta-Jone, his wife, all shared the same birthday.

01:10:36.700 Those two are nowhere to be seen in this documentary.

01:10:39.080 Nor is her daughter, Jackie, who every summer, the hosts of The View would sit around and talk

01:10:44.600 about their summer plans, and then they would say to Barbara, oh, Barbara, are you going

01:10:49.460 to see Jackie this summer?

01:10:51.060 And Barbara would always say, well, you know, Jackie's very, very busy, and I don't want

01:10:54.680 to be in position.

01:10:55.980 So, of course, if she has the time.

01:10:58.100 You know, her daughter clearly wanted nothing to do with her.

01:11:01.400 Barbara sent her packing.

01:11:02.840 Her daughter developed a drug dependency, which makes total sense because this poor kid is

01:11:09.960 left to fend for herself while her mother is out chasing celebrities and exclusives, and

01:11:15.980 she's lonely, and she feels unloved, and she self-medicates.

01:11:20.420 And then Barbara sends her packing to one of those homes for, like, emotionally troubled

01:11:25.680 youth.

01:11:26.260 And we all know what goes on in a lot of those homes.

01:11:29.740 And then Barbara goes to the media, and she says, poor me, poor me, with a drug-addicted

01:11:35.480 daughter.

01:11:36.380 How am I supposed to abide this?

01:11:38.380 I've done everything.

01:11:39.140 You know, it was just so disgusting.

01:11:41.560 And it just sort of went to this notion that, like, it was a hollow person inside.

01:11:46.540 It was an underdeveloped, hollow person inside who prioritized all of the wrong things and

01:11:54.200 who could only really see the world, and even her very troubled dying for parental love daughter

01:12:00.300 through the lens of her own ultimate narcissism.

01:12:04.280 Yes, yes, because she writes in the book about how Jackie, the daughter, wound up at this school

01:12:11.540 for troubled youth, and she seems in her book to be mystified about how this happened.

01:12:16.380 Like, I don't understand.

01:12:17.640 I did everything I could.

01:12:19.300 You know, when she started showing behavioral problems, I did everything I could.

01:12:22.420 No, you didn't.

01:12:23.280 You didn't.

01:12:23.740 You were with Fidel Castro.

01:12:25.320 You were with Clint Eastwood.

01:12:26.720 You were with Tom Cruise.

01:12:28.020 You were with Taylor Swift.

01:12:31.040 Like, that's, when you have a troubled child, you have to step away from, you know, it's a

01:12:36.420 balancing act for every working mom, and most of the working moms out there are working

01:12:40.920 because they must.

01:12:42.780 There's some collection that do it because they love their work.

01:12:46.140 I happen to count myself, thankfully, among them.

01:12:48.580 But there are vast more people who do it because they have to.

01:12:52.120 They have, it's a, it's a tough economy, and they need a two-figure salary, or some women

01:12:56.380 don't even have a partner, and they have to support their children, so they have to work.

01:12:59.780 But then when the shit hits the fan with your kid, you have no choice but to spend more time

01:13:06.740 with them.

01:13:07.940 And it was the thing she didn't do.

01:13:09.840 There's this quote I've mentioned on this show before from her book.

01:13:12.520 I pulled it for today.

01:13:14.860 She's talking about her daughter.

01:13:17.020 Well, she's all over the world, flitting about doing these interviews.

01:13:20.580 I telephoned whenever I could, told Jackie I missed her and loved her dearly, and asked

01:13:26.680 Zell, the nanny, to turn on the Today Show before Jackie went off to nursery school so

01:13:32.340 she could see her mommy in the strange land called China.

01:13:35.740 Then I hung up the phone, felt even lonelier, and went back to work.

01:13:41.980 Now, that I think is real, her putting the daughter in front of the television to spend

01:13:49.220 time with mom while she's away.

01:13:52.360 What I don't really think is real is that she felt bad about it.

01:13:57.000 I don't think Barbara did feel bad about it, and I'll tell you why.

01:13:59.840 And this is not going to appear in the documentary.

01:14:04.700 Someone I know, this is a first-hand account, told me that on The View, they used to make

01:14:11.040 a big deal out of Barbara's birthdays every year.

01:14:14.880 And one year, they had a big birthday party.

01:14:17.820 I believe this was on the air.

01:14:18.920 I haven't gone back to check this, but I have no reason to doubt it.

01:14:21.520 They had a big birthday party.

01:14:23.680 Yay, yay, yay.

01:14:24.460 You turned, whatever it was.

01:14:25.760 And they wheeled out a big cake.

01:14:27.520 And in the cake, surprise, was her daughter.

01:14:32.740 And on the air, I guess, you know, she played it off, of course, like, oh, my daughter.

01:14:38.280 Wow, wow, wow.

01:14:39.740 And this person told me after the show, she was livid with the producers and scolded them

01:14:47.180 to high heaven for bringing her daughter in without asking her because she had plans that

01:14:53.720 weekend and she did not want to have to deal with her pain-in-the-ass daughter suddenly

01:14:59.060 there and wanting to spend time with her.

01:15:02.140 I know that this was told to me by somebody who was there and, again, who I had total trust

01:15:07.640 in.

01:15:08.300 And I've never been able to look at her the same.

01:15:10.980 And when she died, there were all the tributes, Maureen, about what a wonderful journalist she

01:15:16.180 was, how, like, she was a pioneer for women.

01:15:19.100 You know, she did, she paved the path.

01:15:21.360 And I acknowledge that I am somebody in some ways she paved the path for.

01:15:27.640 But I have this other knowledge of her that I find deeply disturbing.

01:15:32.440 And now that we're coming to grips in 2025 America with what it means to be a working

01:15:38.320 woman, I had the same recoiling feeling when I watched the documentary, the whole story

01:15:45.220 has to be told.

01:15:46.640 The whole story of what it means when you make this choice to both work and have children

01:15:52.020 should be told and how some women have navigated it well and some women haven't.

01:15:58.160 And this, I think Barbara Walters was never cut out to be a mother.

01:16:01.140 And she should have done the Oprah thing.

01:16:03.240 She should have said, this one's not for me.

01:16:06.200 It's not for, yeah.

01:16:07.520 I mean, that story is horrific.

01:16:10.220 That story, she's a monster.

01:16:13.040 She's a monster.

01:16:14.660 You know, it probably took a lot for Jackie to even agree to that because you know she's

01:16:18.680 got eyes, I believe, really, really, really complicated feelings towards her mother.

01:16:25.600 What struck me in the doc as well, they make it a point to show Barbara's last episode

01:16:30.780 of The View.

01:16:31.760 And I believe she had to be gently pushed off that stage because all she lived for was

01:16:37.620 the television camera.

01:16:38.720 That was it.

01:16:39.160 That was where her life began and ended.

01:16:41.560 To say, put my kid in front of the TV so they can see, oh my God.

01:16:45.880 But, you know, they brought out all of these women who, all these journalists to say, look

01:16:51.040 at the legacy.

01:16:52.320 This is Barbara's legacy.

01:16:53.580 These are, in effect, her professional daughters.

01:16:55.940 You know, the Katie Couric's of the world and the Elizabeth Vargas's and they all came

01:17:00.340 out and it was like confetti and rainbows and stuff.

01:17:02.840 They asked me to be there.

01:17:04.820 They did?

01:17:05.720 They asked me to be there.

01:17:06.460 Yeah.

01:17:06.740 I didn't go.

01:17:07.460 I was traveling.

01:17:08.960 I couldn't go.

01:17:09.920 But I didn't know Barbara and I thought, this is weird.

01:17:12.080 Like, why am I getting invited?

01:17:13.540 And it's the Sidney Sweeney invitation to the Sanchez Bezos wedding.

01:17:18.800 You know, like, let's just populate the stage with, with like someone who's like interesting

01:17:24.660 or relevant on television right now and make it look like this is a Barbara, you know,

01:17:29.880 mentee and like somebody to whom Barbara, you know, meant everything, which wasn't true

01:17:35.960 at all.

01:17:36.380 You know, like I was going to be the Sidney Sweeney of the Barbara farewell without the

01:17:42.120 boobs.

01:17:44.520 I'm glad you said it.

01:17:46.380 Likewise.

01:17:47.280 But yeah, no, I, and, and that's, that's such a selfish ask for on her part or her team's

01:17:53.780 part as well, because they're, that's asking for your endorsement, like your blind endorsement

01:17:58.420 of her and you didn't know her and she could have been a monster.

01:18:02.520 And in many ways, I think she was a monster.

01:18:05.140 And, you know, I remember reading the reports about her life in the years between her leaving

01:18:11.420 the view and her death.

01:18:13.380 And it was his, it was always reported as an extremely lonely life.

01:18:17.440 You know, the transactional relationships she had with those celebrities, they were no

01:18:21.780 longer interested in her because she had nothing to offer anymore.

01:18:25.620 Those were the kinds of people she forged relationships with.

01:18:29.320 She didn't forge deep, private, abiding relationships.

01:18:33.940 You could tell she kept nobody's secrets, right?

01:18:36.360 Do you think she kept anybody's secrets?

01:18:37.880 Yeah, this guy, um, in the piece, Peter Gethers, who was editor of the autobiography

01:18:44.560 said, uh, the following, she was obsessed with three things.

01:18:49.080 She was obsessed with money, fame, and power.

01:18:53.100 She did not have the strongest moral compass.

01:18:55.780 A lot of the relationships she developed were career moves and she was a pretty transactional

01:19:01.740 person.

01:19:02.380 Um, that, that's amazing.

01:19:06.020 Somebody, and here's Cindy Adams, you know, former gossip columnist, uh, who says in the

01:19:10.640 documentary, she loved being important to a man.

01:19:14.180 She didn't have patience for somebody who's stupid.

01:19:16.860 She didn't love you.

01:19:18.300 If you were a nobody, you had to be somebody.

01:19:21.760 On top of all that, you have Sage Steele, who, if you don't get along with Sage Steele, it's

01:19:30.420 you.

01:19:31.020 She's truly one of the most lovely, luminous, delightful, thoughtful people you'll ever

01:19:37.100 have the good fortune to meet in your life.

01:19:39.060 She went on The View and she has been on the show repeatedly, but one time she was on, she

01:19:44.860 told us the following story about Barbara Walters and Sage backstage.

01:19:51.040 Watch.

01:19:52.140 If I don't ask you about Barbara Walters, she attacks you?

01:19:56.040 What do you, wait, what?

01:19:57.120 It was right after that segment with the, the Obama segment and, um, went in the back.

01:20:04.740 And so it was Barbara whooping in myself in the dark green room off the side.

01:20:09.900 It was probably about four feet from the wall in the trash can.

01:20:12.740 And Barbara was standing over here in front of me and she just started to back up towards

01:20:17.420 me and looked at me and got close and elbowed me and pushed me back into the wall in the

01:20:24.340 trash can.

01:20:24.860 I was like, what did this just do to me?

01:20:27.840 Like this 140 year old woman just tried to like tackle me.

01:20:31.900 What is happening right now?

01:20:33.100 And some of the producers saw it, Whoopi saw it and Whoopi was like, come here.

01:20:38.140 And she was great.

01:20:38.920 And she pulled me aside in her little area and she's like, don't you let her do it.

01:20:42.980 I'm like, am I in a movie right now?

01:20:45.760 A legend, one of the legends in this industry just tried to beat me up.

01:20:52.900 Pretty, pretty extraordinary.

01:20:55.760 It's like, it's the metaphor for Barbara's entire existence.

01:20:59.340 Get out of my way.

01:21:00.520 I'm the star.

01:21:01.780 Who are you?

01:21:02.400 You're nobody to me.

01:21:03.280 You're nothing again, like she could never do that now ever in a post woke post George

01:21:08.780 Floyd America.

01:21:09.720 It's funny because I've heard that story too from someone else that similar experience

01:21:15.160 at the view as a guest, Barbara was being a complete bitch to her and it was Whoopi who

01:21:21.420 would intervene and come over and say, come here.

01:21:24.000 Don't worry.

01:21:25.160 She's that's how she is.

01:21:26.380 We all deal with it.

01:21:27.340 It's not personal.

01:21:28.160 Wow.

01:21:29.920 I mean, think about it that I, all I can guess is that she had different politics from

01:21:34.000 Sage and she was threatened by her because I mean, she's truly luminous.

01:21:40.300 I've seen Sage in person many times and truly like it's intimidating.

01:21:45.680 She's so beautiful.

01:21:46.240 Like you're, you're kind of like knocked on your heels.

01:21:47.980 Like, Oh my God, all you can do is just stare at her beautiful face.

01:21:51.020 And I'm sure Barbara Walters felt intimidated by that as opposed to like inspired.

01:21:57.160 Inspired or in admiration of it because they talk about how she was deeply insecure.

01:22:04.500 And the thing about the looks, like what she said to Bette Midler is a recurring theme

01:22:07.940 in her life.

01:22:09.040 And it is reflected in this piece.

01:22:11.060 There's a soundbite from Katie Couric.

01:22:13.360 You mentioned this on the nerve.

01:22:14.800 Here it is.

01:22:15.660 This says a lot.

01:22:16.580 Sot 24.

01:22:18.600 She often told me, Oh, we're so alike.

01:22:21.840 Neither of us is that attractive.

01:22:24.320 It's like, thanks.

01:22:27.160 But I think what she meant is our looks were secondary.

01:22:33.820 I mean, who says that to another person?

01:22:38.540 A very mean, bitter, unhappy woman.

01:22:42.500 You know, I, I, I mean, again, I, as I said on the show, I am no fan of Katie Couric, but

01:22:48.580 that floored me.

01:22:50.020 I, I found the cruelty of it.

01:22:51.680 So breathtaking in the beginning of the doc, you know, they talk about how Barbara really

01:22:58.120 hated her looks.

01:22:59.500 And I'm looking at these old, these pictures of hers, a very young woman starting out.

01:23:03.000 And I'm like, she's actually very attractive.

01:23:05.740 She's pretty.

01:23:06.440 If she, if she had bought into her own beauty, I think she would have aged completely differently,

01:23:12.980 you know?

01:23:14.000 So interesting.

01:23:14.500 Not just because she would have had self-esteem, but she, she, you know, they do say at a certain

01:23:19.640 point, your, your outsides begin to match your insides.

01:23:22.740 And with her, she just literally turned into this, like, I don't mean to sound really too

01:23:30.780 brutal, but she really did kind of age into this, like, withered old crone.

01:23:35.020 And she would get her mitts on like these younger, more beautiful starlets or figures in the

01:23:41.000 culture.

01:23:41.580 And she would weaponize this sort of faux maternal, like the Monica Lewinsky interview,

01:23:47.120 which I believe she threw Diane Sawyer in front of oncoming traffic to steal.

01:23:51.480 You know, she's using this kind of faux maternal instinct to sort of lure Monica into answering

01:24:00.620 the question, like, well, it was something like, you know, did you get on your knees?

01:24:04.680 They said you brought the presidential knee pads, like stuff like that, where a journalist

01:24:10.760 who had a little bit more, you know, she had been around the block.

01:24:14.600 She understood how all of this worked.

01:24:16.240 Monica Lewinsky was a girl who found herself thrust into the national spotlight.

01:24:19.500 And this was really Barbara, you know, that was just another carcass to feast upon.

01:24:25.620 And she, so she, yeah, yeah.

01:24:28.180 And if you read the book, one of the other themes that comes out is probably related to

01:24:31.760 the deep insecurity on the looks front is she is constantly bragging that allegedly everyone

01:24:36.360 wanted to sleep with her in that trailer.

01:24:39.260 They show like a saucy exchange between Barbara and Clint Eastwood.

01:24:42.580 And I guarantee you, Clint Eastwood did not want to sleep with Barbara Walters, but was

01:24:45.780 being fun and flirtatious because the cameras were rolling and he knew it would make a fun

01:24:49.460 moment.

01:24:50.440 But if you read her book, I think you would walk away with the impression she thought

01:24:54.400 she could have slept with Clint Eastwood.

01:24:56.720 There were rumors that she might've slept with Fidel Castro.

01:24:59.740 She definitely dated Alan Greenspan and considered that a feather in the calf.

01:25:04.160 I'm not sure if it is, but there, there was an ongoing obsession in the book about all

01:25:10.400 the men she'd loved before and how many really, really loved her.

01:25:15.220 And I don't know, she was famous and she had money.

01:25:17.380 So maybe she did attract more than her fair share.

01:25:19.580 But to me, it seemed like a cover for her deep insecurity.

01:25:22.760 I want to play this.

01:25:23.660 I have to take a break.

01:25:24.380 My team's yelling at me.

01:25:25.680 We've taken no breaks.

01:25:26.700 Do you realize we took one break, but I haven't read any ads, which we need to do.

01:25:29.880 Um, but here is the thing back on the children and the Oprah versus Barbara thing.

01:25:34.920 Listen to this from the documentary.

01:25:36.340 This is Oprah in tell me everything, a Hulu documentary about Barbara Walters.

01:25:40.340 So 28.

01:25:42.100 She had a charged complex relationship with her daughter and, you know, I can see why it's

01:25:49.940 one of the reasons why I never had children.

01:25:53.780 I remember her telling me once that there's nothing more fulfilling than having children

01:25:58.980 and you should really think about it.

01:26:01.220 And I was like, okay, but I'm looking at you.

01:26:04.820 So no, you are a pioneer in your field and you are trying to break the mold for yourself

01:26:13.780 and for women who are going to follow you.

01:26:16.980 Then something's going to have to give for that.

01:26:20.240 And that is why I did not have children.

01:26:22.740 I knew I could not do both.

01:26:25.560 Well, both are sacrifices, sacrifice to do the work.

01:26:30.080 And it's also a sacrifice to be the mother and to say, no, let somebody else have that.

01:26:35.020 And at no time have I ever heard a story, read a story.

01:26:38.900 And based on what I know of Barbara Walters, at no time has Barbara Walters ever said, no,

01:26:44.520 let someone else take that story.

01:26:46.980 No.

01:26:48.920 She's not wrong about that, Maureen.

01:26:50.740 She's not, she's not a stopped clock.

01:26:55.000 You know, Oprah is telling a lot of truth there.

01:26:57.780 And I love her reaction to being told by Barbara Walters that nothing is more fulfilling than

01:27:03.560 motherhood.

01:27:04.100 And Oprah's like, yeah, well, I'm looking at you and basically telling us, Barbara found

01:27:11.000 no fulfillment in motherhood.

01:27:12.380 If anything, what this documentary makes clear, and I'm not personalizing this to Jackie, it

01:27:17.840 could have been any child Barbara had.

01:27:20.740 Barbara was not going to find any fulfillment in motherhood.

01:27:24.500 And she couldn't be honest with herself about it.

01:27:27.100 And instead, the motherhood and the troubled child and the single motherdom, it's like,

01:27:32.660 it just became another part of Barbara's press packet.

01:27:36.600 And to your point about, I read Audition when it came out as well.

01:27:41.560 And I remember, God, because she flogged that book every day on The View for like two months.

01:27:47.780 And I remember reading the stuff about her sister who had developmental delays or learning

01:27:54.540 disabilities and with special needs.

01:27:56.740 And I agree with you.

01:27:58.700 It is a very gutsy thing to admit that as a child, you felt less than because there was

01:28:04.100 a sibling who needed more attention and a father who was never in the home and a mother

01:28:08.420 who was not in love with the father, all of that.

01:28:11.600 But I would think there would come a point when you are an urbane, sophisticated woman who

01:28:17.120 moves in very rarefied circles and not for nothing lives in Manhattan and has access to the

01:28:21.600 best psychotherapists, where you can work through that and come out the other side and say,

01:28:26.220 oh, my God, my life has been such a blessing.

01:28:28.820 I have all this money and fame and power and everything I worked so hard for.

01:28:32.360 And my sister could never have achieved that no matter what.

01:28:35.460 And I can make my peace with my childhood now.

01:28:38.680 And I wonder how much of that unresolved trauma really sort of was some of the fundamental

01:28:45.460 roots of her real ever-present rage, which we would see come out in these interviews.

01:28:49.540 I have so much I want to say on this because the connection between how she was with the

01:28:54.640 sister and how she was with the daughter who she named Jackie after the sister.

01:29:01.220 I have a lot, a lot on that.

01:29:03.260 I have to take a break.

01:29:04.120 We're going to keep this going.

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01:31:18.440 I'm Megan Kelly, host of The Megan Kelly Show on Sirius XM.

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01:32:20.120 Your Highness, I must ask you the question that most Americans want to know about you.

01:32:25.200 Are you happy?

01:32:26.800 I've had many happy moments in my life, yes.

01:32:29.960 I don't think happiness, being happy is a perpetual state that anyone can be in.

01:32:37.100 No, life isn't that way.

01:32:39.380 But I suppose I have a certain peace of mind, yes.

01:32:46.560 And my children give me a great deal of happiness.

01:32:50.700 Princess Grace of Monaco, American actress turned princess, sitting with Barbara Walters.

01:32:55.620 Welcome back to The Megan Kelly Show.

01:32:56.760 Here with me, Maureen Callahan, host of The Nerve with Maureen Callahan.

01:33:00.700 Go ahead and subscribe right now while I have your attention.

01:33:02.760 Just click, follow, and subscribe on YouTube and on podcasts wherever you get yours for free.

01:33:08.440 That was a good example of Barbara Walters.

01:33:10.780 And, you know, as I sit here as sort of somebody who benefited from the path that she did forge,

01:33:15.740 Maureen, I think to myself, you know, how is it that someone like me came and was able

01:33:22.360 actually to, yes, have it all?

01:33:24.280 I know that's an overused and actually controversial phrase, but I feel like I do.

01:33:28.680 And how is it that I managed it?

01:33:30.660 Well, I came up in a different time.

01:33:32.020 And I have to admit, in large part, thanks to women like Barbara Walters, who, she's right.

01:33:38.840 She couldn't have done both when she was coming up.

01:33:42.260 And they make the point in the documentary, Tell Me Everything on Hulu, that if she had

01:33:47.860 tried to bring Jackie to the office back then in the 1960s, she would have been laughed all

01:33:54.640 the way out of that.

01:33:55.140 I mean, just the fact that she was a woman and there was a problem for a lot of the folks

01:33:59.580 around her.

01:34:00.040 Never mind someone is bringing their child in or like leaving the office early or asking

01:34:06.560 for flex time or any of that stuff, you know?

01:34:09.900 And so there were a lot of strong women like Barbara who made those, I mean, honestly, like

01:34:15.740 very controversial sacrifices just to get women considered in these roles.

01:34:20.200 And I, I've benefited from that, but I thank God every day that I didn't make the same

01:34:26.680 choices and that I, I didn't have to, you know, that, that in today's day and age, I

01:34:30.340 really hope the path I'm forging for people coming up behind me is the, the actual appreciation

01:34:37.220 of family meaning more.

01:34:38.800 And I love, love, love my career.

01:34:40.920 I love it.

01:34:41.860 I, I would do this job for free.

01:34:43.480 I said that the day Roger Ailes hired me, but it doesn't, it doesn't compare to the love

01:34:50.120 I have for my family, my children and the women who do want to do both have to choose

01:34:55.540 a job that has flexibility first and foremost.

01:35:00.000 And my news career has hers didn't for the reasons we've been discussing, they have to

01:35:05.060 choose ideally a partner who is an active father and also has flexibility.

01:35:10.220 And thankfully I have that too.

01:35:12.680 And the third thing is some means, you know, some means it's very hard to do both.

01:35:18.480 Well, when you still have to do all the housework and all the cooking and all the driving with

01:35:24.200 the kids.

01:35:24.980 So I totally feel for women who are not in that spot and all that has to be factored in

01:35:29.840 before we just tell these young women, you can have it all because the reality is you

01:35:34.620 probably can't have it all at the same time.

01:35:36.520 And unless you really thread the needle, you know, it's hard.

01:35:41.020 It's very hard.

01:35:41.860 So anyway, I just want to acknowledge my humility on this because it's easy for me to be like,

01:35:46.640 she was a shitty mother when she just came up at a different time, Maureen.

01:35:52.020 She came at an entirely different time.

01:35:53.540 I do think she never should have adopted that daughter.

01:35:56.020 Here's what she said on the record.

01:35:58.000 This is in the documentary.

01:35:59.520 Tell me everything about her regrets on her motherhood on her daughter, Jackie.

01:36:05.660 It's not 31.

01:36:06.140 Do you have any regrets when it comes to Jackie?

01:36:10.500 Oh, sorry.

01:36:10.860 This is not from the documentary.

01:36:13.860 I look back and I think I wish I had been with her more.

01:36:18.580 I was so busy with a career.

01:36:22.040 It's the age old problem.

01:36:24.740 And, you know, on your deathbed, are you going to say, I wish I'd spent more time in

01:36:29.700 the office?

01:36:30.460 No.

01:36:31.200 You'll say, I wish I spent more time with my family.

01:36:34.060 And I do feel that way.

01:36:35.740 I wish I had spent more time with my Jackie.

01:36:39.840 Again, I'm not sure I believe her.

01:36:41.960 And I also think, Maureen, there's a very realization.

01:36:44.820 There's a very real place for women who say, motherhood is not for me.

01:36:50.080 I don't, I'm not, I don't think I'd be a good mom or I don't think I'd enjoy being a mom.

01:36:54.360 Not the crazy leftist stuff that we're seeing.

01:36:56.380 Like, you can't have children because it's bad for the environment.

01:36:58.640 But like, it doesn't align with me and my talents.

01:37:01.080 And I don't want to do that to a child.

01:37:02.320 That's okay, too.

01:37:03.400 She didn't do that.

01:37:05.740 No, she didn't.

01:37:06.780 I mean, to your point, I think, you know, I don't think she knew herself very well.

01:37:10.360 And I think what she did know of herself, she didn't quite like.

01:37:13.560 I, you know, when Anthony Bourdain died, I thought about this a lot.

01:37:17.120 You know, a guy who by design, his schedule, but again, by his own architecture, has him

01:37:25.620 running around the globe for 360 days out of the year is running from something very deep

01:37:30.480 and very profound.

01:37:31.260 And I think the same was true for Barbara Walters for ever chasing that next big interview.

01:37:37.140 That point you made, which I hadn't put together until you said it, you know, naming the daughter

01:37:42.140 after the sister she resented.

01:37:44.760 I mean, a Freudian shrink would have a field day with that, right?

01:37:49.640 And that clip you just showed, just to finish this thought, it reminds me of that Harry

01:37:56.080 Chapin song, Cats in the Cradle, you know, which is told from the point of view of a father.

01:38:01.500 He's singing from the point of view of the son who's like, Dad, when are you going to

01:38:04.520 come home to play with me and hang out with me?

01:38:06.560 And the father's always saying, I'll be soon, soon, and soon never comes.

01:38:11.140 And then when the child becomes an adult and the father says, son, I'd love to see you.

01:38:15.080 The son says, sometime soon.

01:38:17.000 And that to me is what's going on there.

01:38:18.980 Give me the chill.

01:38:19.600 Just give me the chills with that.

01:38:20.900 That song is so devastating and such a good reminder.

01:38:23.620 Like, don't, don't wait.

01:38:26.580 The fact that she named the daughter Jackie when she admits that she hated the sister is

01:38:31.660 very, very telling.

01:38:33.080 And it is disturbing.

01:38:33.880 And this is a passage from the book about when her sister, Jackie, died.

01:38:40.740 Barbara was all Jackie had in the world.

01:38:43.060 You know, their parents had long since passed and Jackie had a devastating illness.

01:38:47.520 She had ovarian cancer and she was in the hospital and Barbara went to be with her for

01:38:53.560 the day of the surgery.

01:38:54.580 And I guess a day or two after, and then she left and you can hear, she talks about having

01:38:59.980 taken, um, her in, in her house.

01:39:02.720 And she resented, very much resented it, uh, did not like having a charge in the house.

01:39:06.960 Forgive me because I'm not totally sure it's been many years, whether that was her mother

01:39:10.380 or her sister, but one of them lived in her house for a time and she resented the hell

01:39:13.920 out of it.

01:39:14.620 Uh, and she writes in audition about when Jackie died.

01:39:18.920 She writes, um, okay.

01:39:21.020 She was recovering from ovarian cancer surgery and she had an aneurysm and passed away.

01:39:26.240 On that day, Barbara was hundreds of miles away in Milwaukee.

01:39:29.600 Okay.

01:39:30.000 Here's what she writes.

01:39:30.660 Quote, I went down with her when she had the operation and I left because I had to make

01:39:36.140 a speech for heaven's sakes.

01:39:37.660 She's feeling defensive.

01:39:39.280 I left her two days after the operation and I said, I'll be back.

01:39:43.820 I went to Milwaukee to make this speech for ABC.

01:39:47.240 I mean, it wasn't a speech for money, but I was auditioning.

01:39:51.600 I was being perfect.

01:39:53.500 Just before she was scheduled to go on stage, someone came into her dressing room and told

01:39:58.420 her the terrible news.

01:39:59.880 They said, you're on.

01:40:01.500 And I went out and made the most awful speech.

01:40:05.340 She says, I wasn't there when she died to this day.

01:40:09.120 Barbara says she has regrets.

01:40:10.840 She regrets that her, uh, her decision to leave meant her sister died alone.

01:40:16.560 I also know in a way I'm grateful it happened that way.

01:40:20.320 She was in no pain.

01:40:22.000 So she left the sister after the operation when the sister had no one else there because

01:40:28.300 she had to give a speech, not paid.

01:40:31.000 She wants us to know, but for ABC.

01:40:34.620 And then when she was told, she wants us to applaud the fact that she gave the speech instead

01:40:40.240 of breaking down.

01:40:42.580 She put that in her own autobiography about how I went out there and I gave that speech.

01:40:50.040 I don't know.

01:40:50.800 I think I, I can understand to playing through pain, you know, you have to, when you have

01:40:56.360 a, an outwardly facing job, but it was like, she had just been told her sister died and

01:41:02.900 she had just been with a sister days earlier and she wanted pats on the back for going out

01:41:07.400 there on the stage and just giving this barn burner of a speech.

01:41:10.140 And all I could think was that is the coldest, like most callous thing.

01:41:14.980 How, where was the breakdown?

01:41:16.800 What, where, why is it not a lifelong regret that you didn't stay three days so that you

01:41:23.360 would have been with her when she actually died and she was as opposed to her dying alone?

01:41:30.080 So this is the real ugly part of this that I think is true.

01:41:35.140 And that even Barbara knew was so ugly, but it's very human that she would not admit in

01:41:39.400 the pages of her book.

01:41:40.660 She was probably very relieved.

01:41:42.500 This problem was gone.

01:41:45.860 This needy sibling who took up all the oxygen in the room and what little love their parents

01:41:52.000 had to offer was gone.

01:41:54.340 And the sister dying after Barbara left, you know, they often say, I mean, there's no way

01:41:59.240 of proving this, but they often say that, um, there were, there are two things that tend

01:42:04.060 to happen when one is near death.

01:42:06.020 Uh, they either hang on for their loved ones to get there and say a final goodbye, or they

01:42:11.620 wait for the loved one to leave the room and then they allow themselves to slip away.

01:42:16.000 And I got to wonder if the latter isn't the case with Barbara's sister.

01:42:20.440 Hmm.

01:42:21.300 Yeah.

01:42:22.600 Wow.

01:42:23.040 You're right.

01:42:23.620 That, that is true.

01:42:24.440 And I do kind of believe that.

01:42:25.560 I feel like I know people who've experienced that.

01:42:28.280 She, um, the, the, the film does a good job of documenting the fierce rivalry between Barbara

01:42:37.460 and Diane Sawyer, because I think what we, what we see in the book and the movie is Barbara

01:42:43.020 had real issues with women, with women.

01:42:46.780 And, you know, the relationship with the mother is not that if memory serves, again, this came

01:42:52.320 out like 07 or 08, um, she doesn't go that into depth about the mother, but I think she

01:42:59.400 had some real issues there because she clearly, she says, I hated my sister.

01:43:03.240 I told you what I know about her with the daughter.

01:43:06.080 And some of that has also exposed publicly.

01:43:08.560 Um, we saw her with Bette Midler and we saw her, you know, Katie Couric's account of what

01:43:14.520 happened and with Taylor and the Monica Lewinsky interview was controversial too.

01:43:19.420 Like she didn't seem to give many of these women the benefit of the doubt.

01:43:24.620 That's fine.

01:43:25.120 You know, if you're equally skeptical with everyone, then you're just probably just a

01:43:28.660 good journalist, but she was much more flirtatious with the men.

01:43:32.040 She didn't seem to be as skeptical of them.

01:43:34.960 And she did have serious issues about like her insecurities and her looks.

01:43:38.800 I'm going to play something that gets to that first.

01:43:40.720 And then we're going to talk about the Diane Sawyer thing.

01:43:42.260 Cause it's a Friday and why not here?

01:43:45.100 Here she is on a little bit about herself in, um, first let's play SOT 23 and go right

01:43:50.900 into 23 B.

01:43:54.600 I was never beautiful.

01:43:56.880 If I'd been a dog, I mean, maybe they wouldn't have put me on television, but I mean, nobody

01:44:01.580 ever put me on because I was beautiful or glamorous.

01:44:04.680 I don't think that I was very good at marriage.

01:44:07.900 It may be that my career was just too important.

01:44:12.500 Uh, it may have been that I was a difficult person to be married to and I wasn't willing

01:44:18.200 perhaps to give that much, but through it all, there was this career that I felt I needed

01:44:24.640 to have and I loved it.

01:44:27.680 Hmm.

01:44:28.860 So she was insecure.

01:44:30.640 She couldn't keep a man.

01:44:32.020 She was distant from her family, her sister, her daughter, and then Diane Sawyer walked

01:44:39.200 into that buzzsaw.

01:44:41.240 I mean, Houston, Houston, their rivalry was legendary.

01:44:50.540 Maureen, they couldn't stand each other.

01:44:54.320 No kidding.

01:44:55.700 Now this is fascinating because you're so right about the mother.

01:44:59.100 Again, I read the book when it came out, so I, a lot, a lot is lost to memory, but I

01:45:03.740 don't remember her fleshing out the mother very much.

01:45:06.280 And I, I would bet there's a real mother wound there, which is that she was neglected.

01:45:10.460 I mean, that's basically what she's telling us with resenting the sister.

01:45:13.960 And it's probably a little bit easier to resent the sister than to really resent the mother

01:45:19.700 because then you have to dial into that feeling of rejection.

01:45:22.720 My mom rejected me.

01:45:23.780 I think there, there's nothing more, more painful as a child than feeling the rejection

01:45:28.720 of a mother.

01:45:30.920 Diane is so fascinating.

01:45:33.160 Well, the, the marriage stuff is interesting too, because I do think Barbara was just a

01:45:36.660 narcissist.

01:45:37.020 And I think someone says this in the doc, like her real true love was her career.

01:45:41.680 And, but she was such a limited person.

01:45:44.160 She couldn't expand outside of that in any meaningful way and forge any human relationships

01:45:50.060 that had nothing to do with what somebody could offer her other than like the true things

01:45:55.940 that animate a real friendship, like a kinship, things in common, someone you can share your

01:46:01.580 pains, your sorrows, your joys with.

01:46:04.460 It's a real tragedy.

01:46:05.920 And Diane, I think was the horror show version of a sister, like who hadn't been born with learning

01:46:14.900 disabilities, right?

01:46:15.860 Now that's, is that the other sister you want the beauty, the homecoming queen, the

01:46:21.480 one who like presidents and Hollywood stars are all fighting over.

01:46:25.760 Is that, cause like, I think that's where she, she really redirected a lot of her rage.

01:46:30.220 It went right towards Diane.

01:46:32.580 Diane Sawyer is still beautiful, but back in the day, she was absolutely stunning.

01:46:40.020 I mean, when she was younger, she absolutely could have been a model on, on the cover of any

01:46:44.480 magazine. Uh, she worked for Nixon for a time and then wound up in news and was a star really

01:46:50.520 from the beginning. And you can see now, given all this setup that we've done, how Barbara Walters

01:46:56.740 would have reacted very negatively to sharing a newsroom with her. And here is, um, ABC's Cynthia

01:47:06.020 McFadden on some of that in Sot 27 from the movie. Tell me everything.

01:47:12.060 She was certainly

01:47:13.400 dogged by Diane's very existence. She often said Diane was the perfect woman.

01:47:26.140 Yes, I'm ready.

01:47:26.780 She used the word, a blonde goddess, this ideal woman, and that she, Barbara, couldn't compete

01:47:35.440 with that. She could work harder. She could know more people, but she couldn't compete with

01:47:42.140 that. The blonde goddess. She couldn't tolerate having Diane Sawyer rise in what she saw as a

01:47:50.920 direct challenge to what she had accomplished. What a sadness. Talk about the death of joy.

01:48:01.480 Cynthia McFadden's no dope. I know her a bit. She's smart. She knew it. She played it on the line. I

01:48:06.040 believe every word of that. I do too. And, you know, aside from fixating on Diane Sawyer's looks

01:48:13.760 and, you know, again, Barbara, when she began, she was not, I thought she was like, she was a pretty

01:48:20.380 woman who could have really leaned into that and, and, and cultivated that. Um, she, the, the other

01:48:29.120 thing that Diane seemed to have, which at least came through the screen for me, uh, that Barbara did

01:48:34.960 not was like joy. Like she really seemed to love her job and you see her there, like, you know,

01:48:40.400 prepping for camera and she's laughing and she's, you know, it's like, she seems like she might be

01:48:45.140 actually a fun time. And, uh, Barbara does not married to Mike Nichols for all those years.

01:48:50.280 I know. And Barbara Walters is having all sorts of problems. Yeah. Diane's up on the vineyard

01:48:55.480 partying with Mike Nichols and Jackie Onassis and no shortage of players. And, you know, Barbara is like

01:49:02.340 grinding it out, just wanting America to love her, but while slinging insults at the likes of

01:49:07.300 like some Elizabeth Taylor, go figure. It's so true. Yeah. No, Diane Sawyer is quite luminous

01:49:14.940 and, um, and also talented for sure. I'm in this, a story that I, I always think about when I think of

01:49:20.120 news and Diane was nine 11 when, um, she was on the air with Charlie Gibson and they were there,

01:49:28.620 they were live when the towers fell and Charlie Gibson, who was such, so professorial and holier than

01:49:35.200 thou. And the way he approached the news said, he always regretted how he responded in the moment

01:49:41.240 and forgive me, I'm going to botch it, but he wasn't, I'm not quoting him exactly here, but it

01:49:45.340 was, it was like a newsman. You know, it was like the building appears to have collapsed and you know,

01:49:51.000 it, it appears there will be a massive loss of life, you know, and this is him recounting it.

01:49:56.920 Diane Sawyer responded with, Oh my God.

01:50:01.300 You know, she was a person before she was a news anchor. She was a real, she is, she's still here,

01:50:09.160 but she, I'm talking about on the air in that moment. She was a, a real flesh and blood human

01:50:14.480 and possibly religious human. I think Diane actually is with a connection to something bigger than

01:50:19.720 herself who understood exactly what everybody at home was feeling. And Charlie didn't. And Barbara,

01:50:26.360 although she could sort of feign the, I care thing enough to get people to cry in her interviews,

01:50:34.520 I think lacked the gene too. I think also was more of the Charlie Gibson style.

01:50:42.080 I think you're so right. And that actually you hit on something. So it was a pathology with her.

01:50:48.060 She's got to make her interview subject cry. She's got to find your most tender wound and she's going

01:50:57.280 to put her fingers in there and she's going to just spread out and like mangle your guts with her

01:51:04.420 bare hand. And you're going to cry on camera. You're going to give her that money shot. And when you think

01:51:09.500 about it, it's like, why would you be so intent on making these otherwise powerful people who are

01:51:18.780 interesting movers in the culture, who have something to offer us. And we want to get like a

01:51:23.140 sense of who they are behind the scenes. She, she was a pioneer. You know, we talked about too on the

01:51:28.240 show. I think she was among the first to go into these celebrities' homes, you know, it's predates

01:51:34.240 cribs and we could see how these people were living. And it really gave you a whole other, uh, you know,

01:51:40.840 insight into, into people and it humanized them a bit, no matter how lavish their lifestyles, you know,

01:51:46.560 everybody has a kitchen counter and, you know, uh, but she really, she, she was really like, she was like

01:51:52.760 a hammerhead shark that way with the tears. Yeah. Yes. And that's another thing Oprah stole from

01:51:58.340 Barbara that became Oprah's signature. Like it wasn't an Oprah interview unless you cried in it, which is

01:52:03.460 like, who, who's, how is that your goal? If you just have like heartfelt conversations that lead to

01:52:07.580 tears or happened to you, that's fine. But yes, it seemed to be an obvious goal for both of them.

01:52:13.180 Um, here's one more on her and Diane Sawyer and Catherine Hepburn from the movie on Hulu.

01:52:19.580 Tell me everything. It's hot 26. It was just a competitive space to live in.

01:52:28.240 Barbara could be very wily and she wasn't above dirty tricks and tactics that were in

01:52:33.440 my experience beneath some of her competitors, in particular, Diane Sawyer.

01:52:37.520 And now the one and only Catherine Hepburn. Diane had booked fair and square Catherine Hepburn.

01:52:44.000 And Barbara, who knew Catherine Hepburn, put a lot of pressure on Kate to unbook and go with her.

01:52:51.740 You know, and Kate said, no, no, I promised Diane and I will do it with her.

01:52:57.680 How's that for a statement?

01:53:00.480 And she did.

01:53:02.300 If I showed up on Mars, she would have a note there with the Barbara Walters stationery,

01:53:08.640 just requesting an interview with anybody who might happen to show.

01:53:11.900 Wow.

01:53:16.520 Okay. There are two amazing things that, that reminds me, by the way, when Barbara did get

01:53:20.160 her sit down with Kate, that led to the, it was a meme before memes were a thing. If you were a tree,

01:53:25.100 what kind of tree would you be? Which passed into urban lore. I don't think it was exactly that,

01:53:30.440 but that, that became like the Barbara. And of course there was, uh, the Gilda Radner impersonation

01:53:35.020 of Baba Wawa because she could never pronounce her ahs. And Barbara was so offended by that.

01:53:40.300 I mean, um, thirdly, this is the kind of like, if I wish the morning show on Apple TV was more like

01:53:46.500 this, I would watch a period piece about these two antagonists going at it. And the stakes are so high.

01:53:52.680 It's like, who's going to land that interview with the aging movie star? Like, yes, I know it's so,

01:53:59.440 it's amazing to watch and I'm sure it was absolutely cutthroat. And I believe she called Kate and tried

01:54:04.620 to get her to bail on it and good for Catherine Hepburn for not doing it. I will say, you know,

01:54:09.960 that sort of dumping on the new girl thing, um, which is something I have never, ever done. I've

01:54:15.000 only, I've only tried to help girls, young women coming up behind me, but Katie Couric is guilty of

01:54:19.440 it too, because truly one of the nicest people in news, she might be number one nicest in all of news

01:54:25.420 is Ashley Banfield. She's Canadian. They're nice people. Anyway, she worked at, at NBC and was

01:54:34.240 a rising star back to nine 11. She's the reason, one of the main reasons I went into journalism.

01:54:40.640 I was a disaffected lawyer sitting at home on nine 11, like the rest of the country,

01:54:45.040 watching the horrors from my couch. And Ashley Banfield was on TV nonstop for NBC and was such

01:54:51.460 a pro. She handled herself so well and she was in it, man. She was right in front of the towers,

01:54:58.720 kept her composure, kept her cool state factual, like in a good way. And I was like, look at her,

01:55:06.060 this is a real public service. And it wasn't Ashley's beautiful, but it wasn't because it

01:55:10.780 was like, Oh, look how gorgeous she is. Or she's like a star. I can see like her star power. It was

01:55:15.740 just like shoe leather, professional reporting under fire, you know, grace under fire. And I really,

01:55:23.300 really admire her to this day. Anyway, her career got cut short over at NBC by Katie Couric who felt

01:55:32.300 threatened by her and even admitted in her own memoir that she felt threatened by Ashley and

01:55:38.700 far from giving a hand up was happy to see her head out. And I don't think Ashley Banfield's career

01:55:45.560 ever fully rebounded from that. I actually asked her about it one time. We were on the air together.

01:55:51.400 It was happening either on her show at news nation or on one of my shows. And she's,

01:55:58.320 she was too nice to even complain about it. She was like something that said something to the effect

01:56:02.220 of like, Oh yeah, well that, that wasn't very nice. That was as much as Ashley would say about it,

01:56:06.700 but who doesn't help up that like TV news, especially with these bitches can be a fucking snake pit.

01:56:14.060 It can be a snake pit. It's not always the women I trust me. I've gotten it from some men too,

01:56:18.360 but man, it's interesting. They've got Katie Couric commenting on that. Like,

01:56:22.240 Hmm. I wonder if they asked her about her own experience in that lane.

01:56:26.000 I thought the same exact thing. And this is why I can never be a fan of Katie Couric. I,

01:56:30.760 the, the, the Ashley Banfield part of her memoir stuck out to me. So like it was, it was,

01:56:36.540 it, it, the, the anger and the rate, the, the idea that you would go out of your way to strangle

01:56:41.240 someone else who is trying to come up their career in the crib because you, they're a threat to you

01:56:47.400 because of it. And I, I believe it was solely the way Ashley looked. I don't even think Katie knew

01:56:51.300 enough about her professional capabilities or potentialities. It was just like, this woman

01:56:57.880 look is prettier than I am. I don't know. Maybe Barbara was onto something when she made that

01:57:02.060 comment about their looks, but the other thing about Katie that I, that I loathe, and I think goes

01:57:08.340 to this, this really poisonous relationship she has with other women in her book, she writes about

01:57:14.340 how much she still loves Matt Lauer and how, when all those stories broke, you know, he allegedly put

01:57:21.480 a woman in the hospital after raping her in his office. He had the rape button on his desk,

01:57:27.180 allegedly. Um, and she reprints these text messages. She's sending him like, I love you. And I will always

01:57:33.580 love you no matter what. And I am here for you, you know, and he's ignoring her, but she's waxing

01:57:38.020 on and on. I mean, I, to the point where I really think something probably went on between the two

01:57:44.000 of them, either that, or it was unrequited on Katie's part. But the point being, she is no friend

01:57:49.240 to women because any friend to women would have known what was going on over there. And, uh, you

01:57:55.540 know, or, or, or those younger women on that set would have felt like Katie is somebody I could go to

01:58:01.260 in a crisis. She is the truth. That's the tone. She's a leader. I could go to her person. I know

01:58:08.600 a little socially and you know, I've always gotten along with Katie outside of the news business,

01:58:13.140 but inside of her shop, she admits to this behavior. And I don't understand the, I just

01:58:19.000 forgive Matt Lauer. We, we pretend that he just like had an extramarital affair or something you can,

01:58:24.280 you know, whatever the affairs of the heart are complicated, but he serially exploited virtually

01:58:31.600 every young ingenue to come through NBC news when he was the $25 million a year man back when nobody

01:58:41.060 was making those salaries, the biggest star in news and 40 something years old with these 19 year old

01:58:49.120 girls who were showing up there on their college summer internship, you know, promising to make

01:58:54.420 them stars and believing that them believing that he could, or that he would ruin them if they didn't

01:59:01.120 go along to get along. I've talked to some of them. So there's no, for me, there's no forgiving Matt

01:59:06.840 Lauer. I don't, when, when someone shows you that they're genuinely a fucking dirt bag, you accept that

01:59:13.100 and you move on. There's you don't linger. She has a longer relationship with him, but I mean,

01:59:17.300 even that would have been very revealing to me as somebody who had a long relationship with him.

01:59:20.420 And I would have said, that's it. I'm moving on. It's a matter of quality control.

01:59:23.800 This person is no longer going to be in my life. All right. I got to leave it at that. I got to ask

01:59:27.800 you before we go about one additional thing you got to go. And so do I, but we'll be remiss if we do

01:59:32.820 not do at least one clip from the Barack Michelle Obama appearance, the podcast, because everybody

01:59:43.140 thinks they're getting a divorce and let's face it, they probably are. She dragged him onto her show

01:59:48.740 with brother Craig and the following took place. Here's how it started in SOT 36.

01:59:56.560 Barack Obama, can you, can you join us on our set?

01:59:59.640 Come on out here, brother.

02:00:00.340 Welcome to IMO. Look at you.

02:00:05.240 Wait, you guys like each other?

02:00:07.140 Oh yeah, really, huh? The rumor mill. It's my husband, y'all.

02:00:13.160 She turned me back.

02:00:17.960 Now don't start.

02:00:19.520 I can't.

02:00:20.440 It was touch and go for a while.

02:00:22.600 It's so nice to have you both in the same room together.

02:00:25.780 I know, because when we aren't, folks think we're divorced.

02:00:29.820 These are the kinds of things that I just miss, right? So I don't even know this stuff's going

02:00:35.140 on. Right. And then somebody will mention it to me and I'm all like, what are you talking about?

02:00:42.020 People think that they're on this, on the outs because they're not always in the same room

02:00:47.100 together, Maureen. That's what she would like people to believe. Like she, she had what one or

02:00:53.240 two public appearances without him. And that's what led to the divorce speculation. That's not

02:00:56.780 quite it, my dear. It's, um, what are the things? Oh, your words. It's your words that led us to

02:01:03.080 believe you can't stand him. When he walks in, by the way, it's like anybody who just listened to

02:01:10.740 the pod, they got to watch it because first of all, we're taking this thing apart tomorrow on

02:01:14.520 the mini nerve. Uh, good. He, he's got more chemistry with an affection for brother Craig

02:01:20.900 than his own wife. If you look at the way they greet each other. And then my favorite thing is

02:01:25.960 the staging now. Cause we all know that politics is about optics and stage craft. Michelle's at this

02:01:32.060 end of the table. Obama's all the way over here at this end. And brother Craig is between them like

02:01:37.540 a mediator, like a marriage counselor. If they're really still in love and together and not getting

02:01:42.720 a divorce, why aren't they seated next to each other? It's true. And like, why the instant

02:01:48.620 affectation, you know, like, Oh my man. And like, she goes, she doubles down in the following clip.

02:01:54.680 It's just over the top. And, um, here it is. 37. There hasn't been one moment in our marriage

02:02:03.220 where I thought about quitting, um, my man. Um, and we've had some really hard times. So we had to

02:02:11.220 have had a lot of fun times, a lot of adventures, and I have become a better person because of the

02:02:18.760 man I'm married to. Okay. Don't, don't make me cry. Now, right at the beginning of the show,

02:02:23.980 that's sweet. Don't, don't, don't let me start tearing up. You can take the hard stuff. But when

02:02:28.220 I start talking about the sweet stuff, you're like, stop, no, I can't do it. I love it. I'm enjoying

02:02:34.940 it. Okay. There ain't been one minute when I thought about quitting my man. She doesn't talk

02:02:42.280 like that. Right. Who does she think she's getting quitting? Like it has no T's or G my man. Okay.

02:02:48.700 She's like, there's something going on there where she's really acting in order to be like down home.

02:02:55.680 And I love my man and trust me. And like the whole thing to me looked like a complete affectation.

02:03:02.280 It's such a poor performance. It reminds me when Oprah had her show, she would code switch like that

02:03:06.900 too. You know, sometimes she would talk like a, you know, rural black woman, and then she'd be Oprah.

02:03:12.280 Um, and then the other thing is, okay, Michelle told us, and I think you and I talked about this,

02:03:18.140 uh, on your show that, um, remember she said there were more than once there, there was a good

02:03:25.340 decade, solid decade of their marriage that she hated him. Hated him. So you're going to then turn

02:03:31.520 around and tell us you never once thought about, I mean, again, I would love the lawyer in you to

02:03:35.300 pause and then the addition of I'm a man and that's not her husband. So is that

02:03:42.260 there another man? What is it? Is it the dog? What is it?

02:03:47.160 It's a good point. No, she's, she's on the record. They can pretend all they want, that

02:03:52.220 it's just tabloid fodder that has led people to think they're on the outs that, that, Oh yes,

02:03:57.940 he appeared without her, you know, here or there. And people know. Okay. First of all,

02:04:03.200 she didn't go to the Trump inauguration. She didn't go to the Jimmy Carter funeral. He's been

02:04:08.680 spotted out at basketball games and out to dinner with their daughters repeatedly without her.

02:04:14.880 You'd be hard pressed to find a recent picture of the two of them together. So they clearly did it

02:04:20.040 to try to tamp down the rumors, but the greatest indictment of the state of their relationship

02:04:24.560 all comes from her, from her own statements about how awful marriage and motherhood are.

02:04:33.700 It's like, we don't have to make it up. You led us right to that water, Michelle.

02:04:39.360 And it's amazing too, because like Obama, you watch his body language in this thing. And it's like,

02:04:44.580 his arms are crossed, his legs are crossed. He's like torqued away towards the camera or towards

02:04:49.060 brother Craig. He seems as fearful of her. And it just is like diffuse, diffuse, deflect,

02:04:55.320 diffuse as brother Craig does. Like those two are like trauma bonding over here while Michelle's

02:05:00.780 trying to get her shivs and her digs in. It's wild. Trauma bonding. By the way, Barack Obama has no

02:05:06.880 socks on, which I really don't like. Can we just, where's the, bring back the sock. Where are your

02:05:13.040 socks? Do you think he's wearing those sockless socks? You know, the ones that like you can't see.

02:05:18.200 Either way, I object. I feel like a man should have socks on. Women can do what they want.

02:05:23.920 That's just the way it is on the sock. I think that's, I think, you know, Obama strikes me. I

02:05:28.660 kind of dig the like naked ankle. Look, he's got nice ankles. I like, I believe he's a hygienic

02:05:34.340 individual. Sorry. Okay. We disagree. Sadly, we have to leave it on a disagreement. Yeah. I don't know.

02:05:42.180 Plus he's too old. Like maybe you can pull that off if you're like 22, but he's not,

02:05:46.880 and it's not working. It's not working. Nothing about the segment is working. You're

02:05:50.380 right. Poor brother Craig stuck in the middle. Oh, he's brought with peril. Anyway, there's more

02:05:56.920 to hear about that interview and you can do that on Maureen's mini nerve. She drops him on the

02:06:02.220 weekends that tomorrow, Saturday, check it out. Thank you so much. It's always wonderful having

02:06:07.000 you here. Oh my God. Thank you so much, Megan, for having me. What a conversation I could go on

02:06:11.860 forever with you. I know. Gosh, it was same. Honestly, like there's nobody I talked to this

02:06:16.500 way. And I hope the audience, I know the audience loves it too, because it's just, there's so many

02:06:20.200 subjects that you want to delve into that. Like, this is another reason why cable's dead. You know,

02:06:24.140 you could never, we talked for an hour and 30 minutes about Barbara Walters. What? But it was great.

02:06:32.040 It was so great. It's like, it's like, I love talking psychology with you and minutia and why

02:06:38.140 people behave the way they do in the public face. It's like, it's endlessly fascinating. And you're

02:06:42.820 like the best person to talk to about it. Oh, right back at you. All right. Well, I'll be

02:06:46.820 listening tomorrow. All of you should too. Check out the nerve with Maureen Callahan and just programming

02:06:51.540 note. Don't forget on Monday, we're live from Sirius XM triumph, um, with Rahm Emanuel. I mean,

02:06:58.700 that's going to be pretty interesting. Actually, if you have a question you would like me to ask Rahm Emanuel,

02:07:03.420 email it to me, Megan at Megan Kelly.com. Have a great weekend.

02:07:11.240 Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - July 18, 2025

CBS Cancels Colbert, WSJ's Epstein-Trump Nothingburger, and Barbara Walters' Complicated Legacy, with Maureen Callahan ｜ Ep. 1111

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