The Megyn Kelly Show - Chauvin Found Guilty - What it Means, and What Happens Next, with Alan Dershowitz, Arthur Aidala and Mark Eiglarsh ｜ Ep. 92

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00:00:30.600 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:32.520 Your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:42.120 Hey everyone, it's Megyn Kelly.

00:00:43.600 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:45.440 Today on the program, Derek Chauvin.

00:00:48.440 Guilty on all three charges.

00:00:51.100 Guilty on second-degree murder and sentencing yet to come.

00:00:56.460 It isn't a complete shock to anybody

00:00:58.840 who's been listening to this program.

00:01:00.700 You know, we've been telling you that this is a very real possibility

00:01:03.180 and not to believe the people telling you that there really was no shot of a conviction

00:01:06.600 and how uphill this battle was going to be for the prosecution.

00:01:10.320 That tape was really tough and, in the end, I think, insurmountable for the defense.

00:01:17.020 And the evidence, you know, came out pretty well for the prosecution overall.

00:01:20.420 We're going to get into exactly where we think the best points were scored by the prosecution,

00:01:25.000 but also how the system and the process was manipulated.

00:01:29.140 It was absolutely manipulated by the press, by politicians, from the president and vice president

00:01:36.800 to Maxine Waters, who may very well have given Derek Chauvin his best grounds for appeal.

00:01:42.800 Wouldn't that be ironic, right?

00:01:44.200 If she stepped in in a case that possibly was going the way she wanted it to go anyway

00:01:49.420 and screwed it up for what she actually wanted, you know, for her side. 0.94

00:01:53.280 The odds of finding a jury totally untainted by the very biased media coverage of this case

00:01:58.960 from the beginning were nil.

00:02:00.780 But in my view, this judge should have tried harder.

00:02:03.740 I do agree that this jury, that the trial should have been moved.

00:02:07.880 It should have been moved out of this town.

00:02:09.740 And the jury probably should have been sequestered from the beginning.

00:02:12.680 We're going to talk to Alan Dershowitz about that in one second.

00:02:15.380 I have real problem with some of what I've called the heartstrings evidence that was allowed.

00:02:19.340 Witness after witness who watched the encounter between Chauvin

00:02:23.180 and Floyd, talking about how hard it was on them, how it had changed their lives.

00:02:28.180 I think that was very prejudicial to Derek Chauvin and totally irrelevant

00:02:31.600 to the question of guilt or innocence.

00:02:34.120 I wanted to hear from Derek Chauvin.

00:02:35.680 I wanted to see whether there was humanity there, which, of course, there was at some level.

00:02:39.940 But I understand there were reasons not to do it.

00:02:41.680 We'll talk with our dream team, Mark and Arthur, about that in a minute.

00:02:44.440 And I was moved by the reaction from George Floyd's loved ones.

00:02:49.280 You know, I understand how painful this must have been for them.

00:02:54.240 And there's some measure of comfort seeing them comforted.

00:02:58.460 I don't know.

00:02:59.320 I also felt, I admit, for Derek Chauvin, who sat there alone the entire time in that courtroom,

00:03:05.260 who had, as far as I could see, little to no even familial support behind him.

00:03:11.140 And now, as a police officer who served the country for two decades, is heading off to

00:03:16.060 prison for possibly as much as two more decades.

00:03:19.960 And I have sympathy for our country, which I feel has been wrongly and falsely attacked

00:03:27.060 since the day of the George Floyd death forward.

00:03:31.740 The radical leftist narrative on police and on America doesn't change with the facts.

00:03:40.380 They don't care about the facts.

00:03:42.020 The system can can convict Derek Chauvin of the worst possible charge available, murder.

00:03:47.980 And still, what we are told is that the system is unjust.

00:03:52.280 The system is.

00:03:53.680 I understand the history.

00:03:55.140 I get it.

00:03:55.940 But it is history.

00:03:58.060 We are not still in the midst of 1950s Jim Crow justice.

00:04:04.400 And the story that we are is not true.

00:04:08.440 Do not listen to AOC and company trying to tell you that we're still back there.

00:04:15.200 Here's just a sampling of what they're saying.

00:04:17.740 I actually always thought that he would be found guilty because it's sort of a cultural

00:04:22.500 makeup call.

00:04:23.360 But I'm not happy.

00:04:24.800 I'm not pleased.

00:04:25.620 I don't have any sense of satisfaction.

00:04:27.080 I don't think this is a system working.

00:04:29.160 I also don't want this moment to be framed as this system working, working because it's

00:04:37.460 not working.

00:04:38.660 We have been preparing for the violence of protests.

00:04:41.940 Now we need to prepare for the reaction of the police.

00:04:45.660 True justice means that it would have meant that George Floyd would still be alive.

00:04:50.500 It would mean it meant it would mean that Dante Wright would still be alive.

00:04:55.900 It would mean that Michael Brown would still be here.

00:04:58.420 That's what true justice is.

00:05:00.660 Michael Brown.

00:05:01.900 Michael Brown would still be here.

00:05:03.500 Michael Brown would still be here if he hadn't charged a police officer whom he had just

00:05:07.980 assaulted in front of several, at least five black witnesses who testified against Michael

00:05:14.280 Brown to Eric Holder's DOJ, which found that Michael Brown was shot just justifiably.

00:05:20.580 And like, they're still bringing up his name.

00:05:22.280 They're still bringing up the name of Freddie Gray in an attempt to indict, quote, the system.

00:05:26.800 But the system is working.

00:05:30.120 And this is not a larger indictment of policing in America, no matter what the media or these

00:05:34.640 partisan politicians try to tell you.

00:05:37.980 Here is the truth.

00:05:39.040 Police make 10 million arrests a year in the United States.

00:05:44.380 About 1,000 people are killed by cops a year.

00:05:48.740 OK, about 1,000.

00:05:49.960 The vast majority of those people are armed.

00:05:52.640 Of the two dozen or so who were unarmed last year, 14 last year were black, 14 out of 10

00:06:00.820 million arrests.

00:06:03.340 And unarmed, by the way, is a term that's used very loosely, according to the data that

00:06:07.360 tracks all of this.

00:06:08.120 If if you have a gun in your glove compartment as you flee away from a police officer, you're

00:06:13.520 considered unarmed.

00:06:14.520 But I think most cops would dispute that cops, on the other hand, are being shot.

00:06:20.260 On average, 245 cops get shot a year.

00:06:22.860 Forty two fatally.

00:06:24.160 All right.

00:06:25.080 The narrative now out of Minneapolis is still that black lives don't matter, but that this

00:06:31.520 is a start. 0.81

00:06:32.160 But that, you know, the country doesn't value black lives because of that 14 black men, 1.00

00:06:40.340 the number 14 black men who were killed out of 10 million arrests, 14 unarmed.

00:06:45.800 OK, this is a soundbite that I heard on The Daily, which is the New York Times podcast

00:06:49.840 today.

00:06:50.240 It's a man in Minneapolis reacting to the verdict.

00:06:54.020 Listen, America's tolerance for dead black people has usually been pretty high.

00:07:02.500 Hopefully it'll it'll it'll actually start to resonate a little bit more now that we are

00:07:08.400 actually people.

00:07:10.200 That is just so unfair in in response to this case.

00:07:16.340 He's he's not wrong that there's some evidence black lives don't matter to some people, in 1.00

00:07:22.100 particular, the black lives taken by other black people.

00:07:25.540 The vast majority of black people who are murdered are not killed by the police. 0.99

00:07:30.900 They are killed by other black people. 1.00

00:07:32.640 The vast majority of whites who are killed are killed by other white people. 0.99

00:07:36.360 What's happening in cities like Chicago is horrifying. 0.78

00:07:40.640 But that's not where the attention is.

00:07:42.440 All of the attention gets placed on this very small number of people who get killed by the

00:07:48.080 cops.

00:07:48.380 Any numbers too high.

00:07:49.820 But let's be real.

00:07:50.940 You're never going to get rid of all in inappropriate shootings when it comes to police dealing with

00:07:57.220 felons and suspected felons out there in the streets.

00:08:01.320 The city of Chicago, that man, he's right about what's happening there.

00:08:05.360 If that's what he's talking about, I agree with him.

00:08:07.360 There's absolutely no will to address the systemic criminality on the streets there.

00:08:10.580 You want to know what's happening in Chicago right now?

00:08:13.600 In Chicago, homicides are up over 33 percent since last year.

00:08:18.200 Shootings are up 40 percent over what they were last year. 1.00

00:08:21.800 Since April 1st, OK, just since April 1st, 40 people have been killed there, including a

00:08:27.880 seven-year-old little black girl named Jaslyn Adams.

00:08:31.720 She was in a car in a drive-thru and at McDonald's, and she was struck by multiple gunshots.

00:08:39.340 The police found 45, 45 spent shell casings outside of her car, 28 from one gun, 17 from

00:08:47.180 another at the scene.

00:08:48.360 I'm sorry, but where are the protests there?

00:08:52.720 Where is the attention there?

00:08:55.460 She's not yet a household name. 0.61

00:08:57.660 Why not?

00:08:58.560 In just the first three months of 2021, there have been 706 shooting victims in Chicago and

00:09:07.180 131 murders in the first three months.

00:09:13.340 Chicago recently had one day of 18 homicides, largest for a city on record.

00:09:19.600 The cops there have been shot at 21 times so far, just the first three months.

00:09:24.120 It was only nine this time last year.

00:09:26.480 Only nine cops had been shot at in the first three months of last year.

00:09:29.200 Now it's 21 times.

00:09:30.580 Two cops have committed suicide there.

00:09:32.160 Four cops shot in the line of duty.

00:09:33.920 They've had to add clinicians there to help cops on the force because there are so many

00:09:37.940 murders.

00:09:38.680 Their lives are on the line every day.

00:09:40.280 They're seeing little kids like like little Jaslyn wind up dead in the drive-thru.

00:09:47.540 And yet they're told by every media outlet, CNN and MSNBC and others, that they're the

00:09:52.620 bad guys.

00:09:53.120 The cops are the bad guys.

00:09:54.180 And that's where our focus needs to be.

00:09:56.220 And it's not just Chicago, by the way.

00:09:57.900 The major U.S. cities have seen a 33 percent rise in homicides over the last year.

00:10:01.860 New York City shootings are up 50 percent, 50 year over year.

00:10:07.000 L.A. homicides are up 36 percent.

00:10:10.040 Houston, Memphis, some of the largest surges in homicides in the country year over year.

00:10:15.500 In Baltimore, a crime ridded city, the police commissioner said, hey, good news.

00:10:20.160 We actually did OK this year in terms of our the rise in homicide rate because we didn't

00:10:25.380 have the terrible protests.

00:10:27.420 Our protests here were mostly peaceful.

00:10:28.960 So we didn't have to divert our law enforcement to go cover rabble rosers rioting. 1.00

00:10:34.100 So they got to cover crime ridden areas and our homicide rate did not see a spike.

00:10:39.100 The bad news is we still had 335 homicides here in Baltimore last year versus 348 in 2019.

00:10:46.680 You see the problem?

00:10:48.020 You get it?

00:10:49.500 Still, what we're told, it's about bad cops.

00:10:52.680 Bad cops are the problem. 0.88

00:10:53.800 A bad justice system.

00:10:55.060 And what happens is race hustlers jump on cases and lie to the public just to advance

00:11:03.540 the narrative that the justice system is broken and America is bad. 0.99

00:11:09.360 America is a racist country. 0.92

00:11:12.220 Remember Jacob Blake? 0.99

00:11:13.300 He was unarmed.

00:11:14.600 That's what the media told us.

00:11:15.880 It was a lie.

00:11:17.500 Jacob Blake had a knife and he admitted it to Michael Strahan on ABC.

00:11:22.320 Go ahead and check the tape.

00:11:23.300 And now we're seeing the same thing because the media, they don't learn the people who

00:11:28.360 exploit these criminal cases, which were never going to stop in a free country.

00:11:33.980 You're always going to have criminality.

00:11:35.320 But those who want to exploit them to push their own agendas, refuse to learn or get honest.

00:11:41.820 And Benjamin Crump is just the latest example.

00:11:45.120 Right.

00:11:45.660 He's been representing the George Floyd family.

00:11:48.360 And now he's out there tweeting.

00:11:51.180 And I'm going to quote now, as we breathed a collective sigh of relief today, a community

00:11:57.160 in Columbus, referring now to Ohio, a different case, felt the sting of another police shooting

00:12:02.820 as Columbus police killed an unarmed 15 year old black girl named Micaiah Bryant.

00:12:09.460 Another child, another hashtag unarmed, he says, trying to gin up racial resentment, hatred for

00:12:18.140 the cops.

00:12:19.320 But it's a lie.

00:12:21.160 It's a lie.

00:12:22.660 It's not true.

00:12:24.180 And the police in Columbus released a tape showing what happened in that case.

00:12:29.420 And you can see Micaiah Bryant with a knife in her right hand attacking another young woman.

00:12:36.460 The police officer there shot her in defense of others, in defense of the other young woman

00:12:43.040 who was about to get stabbed.

00:12:46.040 So you can see the pattern of deception about Michael Brown, about Freddie Gray.

00:12:51.040 By the way, all officers there exonerated or charges dropped by black law enforcement

00:12:55.820 agents.

00:12:56.820 All right.

00:12:57.300 So they lie about Brown.

00:12:58.600 They lie about Gray.

00:12:59.440 They lie about Micaiah Bryant.

00:13:01.300 They lie about Jacob Blake.

00:13:03.660 Because the narrative must be supported.

00:13:05.780 The narrative must be supported.

00:13:06.460 No matter how many facts disprove it.

00:13:10.540 What's happening in this country right now is about more than the criminal justice system,

00:13:15.680 which is not in the midst of an epidemic of killing unarmed black men.

00:13:21.360 It is about political power.

00:13:24.180 These agenda driven far left Democrats see a chance to stoke racial division and get votes.

00:13:30.740 Votes in cities that have been Democratic run for decades and many of which are in shambles

00:13:36.440 politically and have homicide rates that cannot be explained without some accountability.

00:13:43.560 Identity politics proponents and these dishonest woke warriors see a chance to assign victimhood

00:13:49.220 and oppressor status on sweeping, totally unfair and unfactual levels.

00:13:55.560 Cops are bad. 0.98

00:13:57.020 Defendants, black defendants in particular, good. 1.00

00:13:59.860 Whites, bad. 0.99

00:14:01.440 BIPOC, right? 0.99

00:14:02.640 But black, indigenous people of color, good.

00:14:05.060 Without looking into the facts. 0.98

00:14:06.680 It's absurd.

00:14:08.240 They can be good.

00:14:08.840 They can be bad.

00:14:09.460 All of them.

00:14:10.500 Cops, defendants, what have you.

00:14:12.980 Right now we have a debt that's skyrocketing.

00:14:15.260 We have a crisis at the southern border.

00:14:16.780 We have unemployment at 6 percent.

00:14:18.400 And they're debating reparations so that one generation that had nothing to do with slavery

00:14:23.080 can pay reparations to a generation that may or may not be descended from slaves at all.

00:14:28.020 We have critical race theory infiltrating the schools at great detriment to young minds

00:14:33.520 and young friendships that are blossoming in a very natural and holistic and beautiful way

00:14:39.400 between kids of all races.

00:14:40.580 But but it's being interrupted.

00:14:42.760 We've got pushes still to defund the police.

00:14:46.040 Defund the police.

00:14:46.880 When the polls show that 81 percent of black people want more or the same level of police 0.99

00:14:52.620 in their communities, not less, not less.

00:14:56.400 My only comfort.

00:14:58.640 And all of this is people like Charles Barkley.

00:15:01.620 Right.

00:15:02.200 Remember Charles Barkley saying the other day that these politicians, he sees how they exploit

00:15:07.260 the news.

00:15:07.820 They want to divide us by skin color.

00:15:10.440 They want a race war. 0.96

00:15:12.580 People get it.

00:15:14.220 Despite a manipulative, deceptive media and people who are in front of the microphones

00:15:20.740 who shouldn't be like Maxine Waters.

00:15:22.960 People get it.

00:15:24.920 And I think that's why support for groups like Black Lives Matter is down.

00:15:30.020 Support for law enforcement is up.

00:15:31.960 It's up since George Floyd.

00:15:35.680 Americans are smart.

00:15:37.220 They will figure it out.

00:15:38.400 The system's not perfect, but it's the best we have.

00:15:42.460 And it is working.

00:15:44.640 It is working.

00:15:46.240 You just have to believe in it and you have to have a healthy dose of skepticism and taking

00:15:52.500 in your information from what you know are biased, unfair sources.

00:15:58.400 All right.

00:15:59.040 We're going to get to Alan Dershowitz and to our legal dream team, Mark Eiglarsh and Arthur

00:16:03.300 Aydala in one second. 0.98

00:16:05.240 But first this.

00:16:11.500 Professor, good morning.

00:16:12.740 How are you?

00:16:13.960 Very good, Megan.

00:16:14.960 How are you?

00:16:16.000 I'm good.

00:16:16.740 I'm good.

00:16:17.320 So I've been listening to your podcast and I have a general feel for your reaction to

00:16:22.180 this verdict.

00:16:22.640 But now with a day or so, half a day behind us, how do you see what happened yesterday

00:16:28.340 in Minneapolis?

00:16:28.880 Well, I agree with the president of the United States when he said that the jury, I'm quoting

00:16:35.380 him, the jury who heard the evidence carried out their civic duty in the midst of an extraordinary

00:16:40.180 moment under extraordinary pressure.

00:16:44.840 Those are the words of the president of the United States.

00:16:47.280 And he was right.

00:16:48.500 Every single mayor, every single police chief knew that if there were a verdict other than

00:16:54.480 murder, in this case, there would be riots, there would be burning, and there would probably

00:16:59.500 be deaths.

00:17:00.980 The trial judge recognized that when he condemned Congresswoman Waters for intruding onto the trial

00:17:09.040 and saying that it would give appellate issues to the defense.

00:17:14.040 We cannot be confident that these jurors were not influenced by the fear of riots and violence

00:17:24.400 on the street.

00:17:25.600 This verdict has been tainted by outside influence and by the threat and fear that what went on

00:17:33.740 outside the courtroom may have seeped into the courtroom.

00:17:36.700 So I believe that ultimately the Supreme Court of the United States may well take this case

00:17:43.200 as an important once a decade or once a generation case to set out the rules for what must happen

00:17:50.840 when you have very, very racially divided and emotional and charged cases with a lot of demonstrations

00:17:59.820 outside of the courtroom.

00:18:01.260 The judge in this case refused to isolate the jury, and he made a big mistake by doing that.

00:18:09.220 He refused to move the case out of Minneapolis.

00:18:11.820 He refused to postpone the case.

00:18:14.020 So I think there is a chance, significant in my view but not certain, that the conviction in this case

00:18:20.740 ultimately will be reversed by an appellate court, probably the United States Supreme Court,

00:18:26.040 unlikely the Minnesota state appellate courts.

00:18:29.380 And just to fill in the blank there, we talked about this another time you were on the show.

00:18:35.280 The city announced that it had entered into a settlement agreement with George Floyd's family

00:18:40.180 for $27 million on the eve of trial.

00:18:43.840 So, I mean, that was yet another reason why Derek Chauvin's lawyer had said,

00:18:49.040 I want a mistrial or I certainly want to change a venue.

00:18:52.840 They wanted the jury sequestered, none of which was allowed.

00:18:56.740 The jury was anonymous, which sent the message to them, you have something to be afraid of.

00:19:03.100 And then on the eve of their deliberations, profiles of them were published in local newspapers

00:19:09.300 without their names.

00:19:10.900 But anybody could easily identify them if they knew them.

00:19:14.900 That added to the pressure of the jurors.

00:19:17.260 So it's inconceivable to me that at least some jurors didn't know that their verdict might influence

00:19:25.020 what went on outside the courtroom after their verdict was delivered.

00:19:29.560 And their own safety might be endangered if they came to a verdict other than the one

00:19:35.220 that Congresswoman Waters wanted.

00:19:37.380 That is for the top count of second degree murder.

00:19:41.680 The thumb of outside influence may well have been on the scales of justice in this case.

00:19:47.260 We cannot be confident that this verdict was untainted by outside influences.

00:19:53.780 What she did, what Maxine Waters did, was disgusting.

00:19:57.700 And it was a complete travesty of her obligation as a sitting U.S. congresswoman.

00:20:04.040 It comes on the heels of a long line of inappropriate comments by her stirring up violence, which

00:20:10.000 she and her buddy Nancy Pelosi now just dismiss as, oh, you know, we were just talking about

00:20:14.840 confrontation and confrontation is a good thing and it's American as apple pie.

00:20:19.580 And, you know, it's what we used in the civil rights movement.

00:20:21.780 It depends, right, Maxine?

00:20:23.700 Because some of those people who went, who stormed the Capitol used words like that.

00:20:28.060 You had a very different reaction.

00:20:29.700 But let's just, for people who didn't actually hear the Maxine Waters statement, let's play

00:20:34.760 it so people know what we're talking about.

00:20:36.280 What should protesters do?

00:20:38.320 Well, we've got to stay on the street and we've got to get more active.

00:20:42.920 We've got to get more confrontational.

00:20:45.580 We've got to make sure that they know that we mean business.

00:20:49.240 Make sure they know we we mean business and get confrontational.

00:20:53.460 This is before the verdict came out.

00:20:56.360 It was obviously an attempt to influence.

00:20:58.460 And she wants to see she wanted to see riots in the street if she didn't get just the right 1.00

00:21:02.640 verdict, murder, a guilty verdict on murder.

00:21:05.660 And she got what she wanted.

00:21:07.360 Well, the important thing is not how I interpret it, you interpret it or even Nancy Pelosi interpret

00:21:11.860 it.

00:21:12.060 The important thing is how the police chiefs interpreted it.

00:21:14.420 And the police chiefs clearly understood the message for what it was.

00:21:18.180 If there is a verdict other than murder, there will be riots and violence.

00:21:22.260 And that's why police chiefs all over the United States were standing ready.

00:21:25.940 That's why the president prayed for the right verdict, because he wanted to make sure there

00:21:31.800 were no riots and no demonstrations.

00:21:33.640 That's why the president said the jury performed under extraordinary pressure, pressure from people

00:21:39.720 like Maxine Waters.

00:21:41.800 And let's remember the playbook from which she was borrowing.

00:21:44.920 Look, Maxine Waters wants justice. 1.00

00:21:46.580 She's not the Ku Klux Klan.

00:21:48.100 She's the opposite of the Ku Klux Klan. 1.00

00:21:49.720 But in the 1920s and 30s, we saw demonstrations like this outside of courtrooms in the Deep South

00:21:57.400 with political leaders, congresspeople, mayors, ministers standing in front of courthouses demanding

00:22:05.120 that black defendants be convicted and white defendants be acquitted, threatening violence

00:22:10.900 unless that result was occurred.

00:22:13.180 And the Supreme Court of the United States and other courts reversed convictions.

00:22:18.340 The Supreme Court reversed the conviction in the famous Shepard case, argued by F. Lee Bailey,

00:22:23.700 his first case, the case that led to the TV series The Fugitive.

00:22:28.500 So the Supreme Court, every few generations, steps in and says, enough's enough.

00:22:33.760 And I think the Supreme Court should step into this case when it gets to it and say, look,

00:22:39.280 when you have a situation like this, the Constitution requires sequestration of juries.

00:22:44.840 The Constitution requires that the case be moved out of urban centers where the violence

00:22:50.960 could occur.

00:22:51.820 The Constitution requires that it be postponed until the passions have cooled.

00:22:56.800 There are constitutional limits because the last thing we want are jury verdicts influenced

00:23:03.200 by outside sources where the thumb of the crowd, in this case, the elbow, is on the scales of

00:23:10.300 justice.

00:23:11.140 And it's spreading.

00:23:12.520 The demonstrations yesterday moved to Brooklyn Center where there are efforts to try to railroad

00:23:17.660 Kim Potter.

00:23:19.060 She is totally innocent.

00:23:20.560 She did nothing that is criminal at all.

00:23:22.620 She's the woman who accidentally pulled out her revolver instead of the taser and shot 0.99

00:23:28.720 somebody.

00:23:29.640 Now, that's an accident.

00:23:30.960 Accidents are not criminal if they're honest mistakes.

00:23:35.660 And yet there will be pressure to convict her of manslaughter.

00:23:39.740 And if she's not convicted, which she probably won't be if there's a fair jury, there will again

00:23:45.140 be threats of violence and demonstrations.

00:23:47.000 Our jury system is under siege by identity politicians and by people who see the jury system as part

00:23:55.880 and parcel of a referendum on whether there's racial justice in America.

00:24:01.020 That's not the appropriate function of the jury in American jurisprudence.

00:24:06.280 That is so well said.

00:24:07.800 That's what's so infuriating about what she did before the jury went in. 0.96

00:24:12.220 They absolutely had access to what she said and the implicit threat in there.

00:24:17.280 And it's one of the reasons why Andy McCarthy is saying she doesn't have immunity against

00:24:22.600 Minnesota's criminal laws against obstruction of justice.

00:24:25.820 She ought to be under investigation.

00:24:27.600 And he doesn't think that President Biden was OK making his what he called stunning public

00:24:34.620 statement that he's praying for Chauvin to be convicted just because the jury had gone

00:24:38.800 into sequestration for its deliberations by the time Biden got Biden basically said, I

00:24:43.620 can make my statement now.

00:24:44.580 The jury is sequestered.

00:24:45.600 But still, it is a thumb or an elbow on the scale.

00:24:48.360 And the thought that the jury may have absolutely no access to their phones or to any outside

00:24:53.640 information, we don't know whether or not that's true.

00:24:56.300 It's there was no need for Biden to do it.

00:24:58.820 There certainly was no need for Maxine Waters to do it. 0.98

00:25:01.060 But what do you make of Andy McCarthy's thought that Maxine Waters should not be given a pass

00:25:05.720 for this?

00:25:06.380 She ought to be under investigation.

00:25:07.620 I don't agree.

00:25:09.020 I think that she had a First Amendment right to say what she did, just as the president,

00:25:13.340 President Trump had the First Amendment right to say what he did.

00:25:16.340 I don't think we ought to criminal.

00:25:16.900 Well, but he thinks obstruction of justice.

00:25:18.580 That's what he's saying.

00:25:19.360 But I don't think that obstruction of justice trumps the First Amendment.

00:25:23.780 She had the right to say what she did, and she was wrong to exercise that right.

00:25:27.760 We don't have to make something criminal or an obstruction of justice to criticize it.

00:25:32.360 I criticize very strongly what Maxine Waters said.

00:25:35.020 I don't have the same level of criticism against President Biden.

00:25:38.420 He was careful to make sure that he didn't say it until the jury was sequestered.

00:25:43.320 Now, remember, the jury not only was not sequestered when Maxine Waters made her statement,

00:25:48.660 they weren't even adequately cautioned.

00:25:51.260 They were told not to watch the news.

00:25:53.580 Well, nobody watches the news anymore.

00:25:55.520 That's not where people get their news or information.

00:25:58.380 They're on social media.

00:26:00.680 They hear TV shows that are not the news, commentary shows.

00:26:05.020 They speak to their friends.

00:26:06.260 They speak to their family.

00:26:07.740 There is no way of assuring that this jury, at least some of them,

00:26:13.280 did not learn about Maxine Waters' threats, the threats of Al Sharpton,

00:26:17.900 the threats of Lawyer Crump, the threats of other people,

00:26:20.900 that there will be violence, threats that were taken seriously by police chiefs and mayors

00:26:25.660 all over the country.

00:26:27.160 The very idea that mayors understood the threat,

00:26:30.260 that police chiefs understood the threat,

00:26:32.080 but that jurors somehow did not just belize reality.

00:26:36.840 And so I do not have confidence that this verdict represented merely an assessment of the law

00:26:43.880 and the facts.

00:26:44.440 It may have, but I have no confidence that it necessarily did

00:26:48.420 and that outside influences didn't influence the jury,

00:26:51.620 if not on guilt and innocence, on the level of guilt.

00:26:55.660 After all, the charges of second-degree murder and third-degree murder were very questionable

00:27:01.220 in this case, and manslaughter was a very strong case.

00:27:05.960 But remember, they didn't convict only of manslaughter.

00:27:08.500 They convicted of the very questionable offenses of second- and third-degree murder

00:27:12.800 under pressure, the president said, under extraordinary pressure from outside sources.

00:27:19.180 And so I think this verdict is subject to very much being challenged on appeal,

00:27:24.220 as the trial judge said himself.

00:27:26.600 So let me ask you about that.

00:27:27.700 And by the way, before we talk about the judge's comment on that,

00:27:30.660 not only was the jury seeing this stuff, of course, on Twitter and elsewhere,

00:27:33.960 but there was news that a pig's head had been thrown at the former home of one of the defense

00:27:39.940 witnesses, a guy who had testified on use of force, a pig's head, a severed pig's head

00:27:45.160 had been thrown, right?

00:27:46.260 This is what's in the news and threats of violence in the town in which these jurors live.

00:27:51.320 So I thought it was fascinating that Judge Cahill, you know, known as a fair, pretty fair shooter,

00:27:56.700 straight shooter, comes out and says, you know what?

00:27:58.780 Maxine Waters may have just given you grounds for appeal to get this verdict thrown out,

00:28:03.460 he says to the defense lawyer, Nelson, but he wouldn't do it, but he didn't declare a mistrial.

00:28:08.720 He said, I mean, realistically, will appellate court have the spine that this judge didn't?

00:28:14.680 Well, remember, it'll be months from now.

00:28:16.540 This judge, if he had granted a mistrial, he would have been subject to all kinds of criticism.

00:28:21.200 They would have blamed the riots on him.

00:28:22.720 There would have been riots.

00:28:23.920 They would have blamed the riots on him instead of on Waters.

00:28:26.800 So he didn't have the guts to do it, but he did have the guts to send the message.

00:28:31.120 If I were the appellate lawyer in this case, I would start my brief with the statement by the trial judge,

00:28:36.900 because when the trial judge says they've given you appellate issues, that's pretty powerful.

00:28:42.300 I do not think the Minnesota courts will have the courage to reverse this conviction.

00:28:46.320 But I do think this is one of these one in a generation cases that the Supreme Court may say,

00:28:51.760 look, we have to give direction to the lower courts, the state courts, the federal courts,

00:28:56.980 about how to deal with these racially charged cases, because more and more of them are going

00:29:02.580 to come up and more and more defendants are going to be placed in a situation where they're

00:29:08.080 going to be tried, not in the courtroom, but outside the courtroom.

00:29:11.640 And we have to make sure that our system of justice is not compromised by threats from

00:29:16.760 outside the courthouse.

00:29:18.960 Exactly.

00:29:19.480 Like what what was Derek Chauvin being judged on?

00:29:24.040 Was he being judged on what happened in that nine minute tape or was he being judged for

00:29:29.780 past sins of America and old Jim Crow justice that existed prior to the 1960s?

00:29:37.180 You know, I mean, you could easily make the case that that nine minute tape did it.

00:29:40.080 I understand that argument.

00:29:41.280 I watched enough of the trial to say I get it.

00:29:43.680 I get the jury's verdict and I accept the jury's verdict, but I think we all have reason to

00:29:49.860 believe that there was more going against him than the actual evidence submitted before

00:29:55.620 those jurors.

00:29:56.980 Well, the lawyer for the family said this is a referendum on the history of American

00:30:01.300 injustice toward African-Americans.

00:30:03.480 Trials should not be referendum.

00:30:05.640 The jury has one job to consider the admissible evidence, follow the judge's instructions,

00:30:10.400 by the law to the facts and decide whether every element of each offense was established

00:30:15.420 beyond a reasonable doubt.

00:30:17.300 And they have to do that without the thumb on the scale of justice.

00:30:20.720 And here we had a big, big thumb, maybe even an elbow on the scale of justice that influenced

00:30:26.620 or at least may have influenced the jury verdict, not necessarily on guilt and innocence.

00:30:32.360 That issue was pretty well established by the prosecution.

00:30:36.260 I think they did prove causation beyond a reasonable doubt.

00:30:39.300 I don't think that will be an issue on appeal.

00:30:41.480 But second degree murder is simply not applicable in this case.

00:30:45.120 Can I explain that why?

00:30:46.800 Yeah.

00:30:47.600 Let me explain why.

00:30:48.560 Second degree murder in Minnesota is felony murder.

00:30:51.780 Now, what the court said is the underlying felony in this case could be assault.

00:30:57.900 Now, think about the implications of that.

00:30:59.960 It means that every killing, every unintended killing automatically becomes felony murder because

00:31:06.600 virtually every killing involves an assault. 0.76

00:31:08.740 You shoot somebody. 0.99

00:31:10.420 You first pointed the gun at them. 0.99

00:31:12.400 That is an assault.

00:31:13.700 You then pulled the trigger.

00:31:15.520 That constitutes a battery.

00:31:17.580 And that's why virtually every court in the United States has ruled that assault cannot

00:31:22.640 be an underlying felony for felony murder.

00:31:25.500 They've developed something called the merger rule.

00:31:28.340 If the felony itself merges into the killing the way assault always merges into killing, that's

00:31:35.520 not felony murder.

00:31:36.520 If a felony murder, you need an independent felony.

00:31:38.740 You're robbing a bank.

00:31:40.360 The gun drops on the floor.

00:31:42.140 It shoots.

00:31:42.920 It kills somebody.

00:31:43.800 That's felony murder. 0.96

00:31:45.000 Somebody's trying to engage in a rape, puts his hands around the woman's throat. 0.94

00:31:49.220 He inadvertently strangles her to death. 0.96

00:31:51.400 That's felony murder.

00:31:53.120 But assault is not the basis for felony murder in most jurisdictions.

00:31:58.080 Academics have been teaching that.

00:31:59.660 Courts have been ruling that.

00:32:00.740 The American Law Institute has said that.

00:32:03.040 And Minnesota should follow that law, that you cannot have felony murder based on an assault,

00:32:08.780 which is so in degree related to the death itself that it's not an independent felony.

00:32:14.200 Well, I think I agree with you that they did get the causation evidence they needed for a conviction and instruction and jury instruction saying it didn't have hit the knee on the neck or the back, which it was both, did not have to be the sole cause of George Floyd's death.

00:32:29.480 And that was that was very key to causation.

00:32:31.900 And I agree that the case was overcharged and that the jury was under massive pressure, especially just given how horrific the tape looked to come to, quote, the right, you know, right in quotes, decision to appease their their the people who they live next to their town to save the businesses, to save their homes.

00:32:50.380 And that's one of the reasons why it should have been moved.

00:32:52.320 But although but let me just ask you, because the argument on the other side is, where could you have moved it that a group of jurors would not have been aware of the tape of the George Floyd protests, of the massive riots, the Black Lives Matter eruptions that we had over the summer, all as a result of this case?

00:33:13.020 You couldn't find a jury not tainted.

00:33:15.520 So might as well just leave it in the town in which it happened.

00:33:18.460 No, because the town in which it happened is the town in which the demonstrations, the riots, the violence and the burning would occur.

00:33:25.280 If you moved it to a more rural area and you postponed it six months, the passions would have abated somewhat.

00:33:33.220 It would have been harder to bring large crowds right outside the courtroom.

00:33:37.460 The threats wouldn't have been as immediate to where the jurors live and where they are located.

00:33:43.360 You'd never get a perfect jury in a case like this.

00:33:45.620 That's why you have to aim not for perfection, but for improvement.

00:33:49.780 That's why sequestering the jury was so important.

00:33:52.980 And the combination of an anonymous jury telling the jury you have something to worry about, coupled with non sequestration, was, I think, a deadly combination for due process and justice in this case, which is why I think a court should seriously consider whether the trial judge erred, particularly in not sequestering the jury.

00:34:13.700 In almost every other case that I know of like this, juries are sequestered.

00:34:18.760 Now, it's difficult to sequester a jury.

00:34:20.400 It's expensive.

00:34:21.120 It's cumbersome, et cetera.

00:34:22.700 And look, I agree with you, too.

00:34:24.060 I have no brief for Derek Chauvin.

00:34:25.560 What he did was unacceptable.

00:34:27.060 What he did was wrong.

00:34:28.460 What he did was morally obnoxious, terrible and probably criminal.

00:34:33.600 But it was not second-degree murder and it was not third-degree murder.

00:34:37.580 It was almost certainly manslaughter.

00:34:40.640 And when you have a jury being told that if they come to the correct verdict, manslaughter, there will be riots in the street and it will be their fault.

00:34:49.200 That's not justice.

00:34:50.640 That's crowd submission to crowd passion.

00:34:54.880 And that's the opposite of the rule of law.

00:34:56.800 Let's talk now about what happens to him next because he's been found guilty of all three charges.

00:35:03.800 So what does that mean in terms of sentencing?

00:35:07.740 What kind of sentence he'll be facing?

00:35:09.800 Well, he faces the maximum sentence for the highest charge, which is 40 years.

00:35:14.420 But under the guidelines, he would probably get less because he hasn't been previously convicted.

00:35:20.860 But there is a concept in Minnesota law called aggravation.

00:35:25.840 And if the judge finds that he engaged in aggravating circumstances, he could raise it above the presumptive sentence.

00:35:32.640 So I suspect he'll get a sentence in the range of 25 years and the sentences will be concurrent.

00:35:38.760 That is, he'll get three sentences, one on each.

00:35:41.280 The reason they give him three separate sentences is if the conviction is reversed on the murder charge or on the other charge,

00:35:48.080 that at least it will be upheld on the manslaughter charge.

00:35:51.520 And if he gets a concurrent sentence on the manslaughter charge, now the sentence on manslaughter can't be more than 10 years,

00:35:57.120 at least that sentence will survive.

00:35:59.140 So he'll probably get something like a 20 or 25 year sentence for the top charge,

00:36:04.360 maybe a 15 year sentence for the third degree murder and a 10 year sentence for the manslaughter.

00:36:10.260 And that will all be challenged on appeal.

00:36:13.120 And I predict that the courts will take seriously some of the issues on this appeal.

00:36:19.160 This case is not over.

00:36:20.680 Andrew McCarthy is absolutely right that people like Congresswoman Waters created,

00:36:28.180 exacerbated, increased the chances of appellate reversal in this case.

00:36:33.080 So I think we're going to see and hear more.

00:36:35.660 And if the case is reversed a year from now, eight months from now, in the Supreme Court, two years from now,

00:36:42.440 there'll still be passions and there'll still be demonstrations, but not as extreme as there would have been

00:36:48.320 had there been a verdict other than murder last night in this case.

00:36:52.700 Do you know, like historically, Alan, would he go, would Chauvin go into Gen Pop,

00:36:58.640 into the Gen Pop prison population, you know, a cop in this kind of circumstance? 0.78

00:37:02.840 No, no, he'll be put in a special isolation.

00:37:06.600 Cops get special isolation.

00:37:09.220 It's not the solitary confinement, but there are special areas in most prisons for cops, for informers,

00:37:15.500 for people who committed certain kinds of crimes.

00:37:19.180 He will not be put in the general population.

00:37:21.900 He may want to be in the general population because you get more exercise,

00:37:26.180 you get more visiting time, et cetera.

00:37:27.700 But he'll be treated especially because of his status as a policeman and because of the profile of this case.

00:37:34.320 And now what happens, in your view, to the other cops, the other three cops who have been charged,

00:37:40.580 similarly with aiding and abetting murder?

00:37:44.480 They have yet to be tried.

00:37:46.140 Now, you know, this isn't a good omen, but what do you think happens to them?

00:37:49.680 Well, I think that their lawyers will make motions to delay and to move the case.

00:37:56.280 Their lawyers will make a motion for a sequestered jury.

00:37:58.740 It'd be interesting to see if the trial judge in this second case sequesters the jury.

00:38:04.240 That will send a very interesting message about what the first judge did.

00:38:09.400 What I don't know, I'm not sure, is whether the case will be tried in front of the same judge

00:38:14.160 or whether it'll be a different judge, probably a different judge,

00:38:16.880 but whether that judge will follow the sequestration decision of the first judge.

00:38:22.080 Judges tend to kind of cover each other's backs and don't want to create appellate issues.

00:38:27.560 So maybe the judge will rule in the same way.

00:38:31.200 Don't know.

00:38:32.080 But there will be a trial.

00:38:33.940 And what worries me very much, even more than that, is, as I've mentioned, the Kim Potter case,

00:38:39.560 where she did absolutely nothing criminal.

00:38:42.120 And she's already been railroaded by being charged by a highly politicized attorney general

00:38:47.220 in the state of Minnesota.

00:38:50.640 And she will be a scapegoat for other things.

00:38:54.700 Here's a woman with a 20... 1.00

00:38:55.520 Let's just remind the audience what she did, that case, if they haven't been paying attention to that.

00:39:00.780 Yeah, the guy who was stopped.

00:39:02.860 We're not sure of the circumstances.

00:39:04.280 He was under indictment for a serious attempted robbery, armed robbery.

00:39:12.460 And we don't know how much she knew about the circumstances,

00:39:15.240 but he was trying to get back in the car to run away, which he did.

00:39:18.500 Succeeded in starting the car and driving away, even though he was shot.

00:39:23.120 And she pulled out what she thought was her taser.

00:39:25.880 And she yelled three times, taser, taser, taser, fired it. 1.00

00:39:29.260 And then she said, holy, S.H., I shot him.

00:39:33.080 The evidence seems overwhelming and indisputable that she made an honest, tragic, horrible, horrible mistake.

00:39:39.980 The manslaughter statute simply doesn't cover that kind of conduct.

00:39:44.480 And yet the crowd is pressuring for a conviction in this case, and they're not going to let up until they get one.

00:39:51.700 And this is going to be a test case, because unlike Chauvin, where there was evidence of manslaughter,

00:39:57.800 here there is no evidence whatsoever of any criminal conduct.

00:40:02.600 And yet...

00:40:02.920 Okay, let me ask you about that.

00:40:04.040 Let me ask you.

00:40:04.560 So the argument on her, because I am interested in that case.

00:40:07.140 It's all on camera.

00:40:07.920 You can see her horror as she realizes she's fired a gun instead of a taser.

00:40:12.500 She'd been on the force 20 plus years.

00:40:14.060 This is not some newbie.

00:40:15.960 And will the argument on getting to, you know, gross negligence to the point of recklessness and getting into manslaughter be she should have realized at some point you have to touch your gun.

00:40:26.540 You have to realize there's a difference between the feel of a taser and a gun.

00:40:29.940 You presumably had to let the safety, release the safety on the gun.

00:40:34.400 I don't know, actually, to tell you the truth, what she had to do to fire.

00:40:36.900 But won't that be the argument that it was grossly negligent to the point of recklessness for her to not understand that the weapon in her hand that she was firing repeatedly was, in fact, a firearm?

00:40:46.940 That's not the criteria under a manslaughter statute.

00:40:50.220 She has to have known, known that what she was doing was reckless.

00:40:55.280 If she honestly believed that she was firing a taser and that the firing of a taser was legitimate under the circumstances to stop a fleeing felon, then that's not manslaughter.

00:41:08.020 You can't have manslaughter for a mere, mere accident.

00:41:11.520 That's just not criminal.

00:41:14.640 There has to be culpability.

00:41:16.300 And the level of negligence required requires a knowledge of facts, which would lead you to know that what you were doing was reckless.

00:41:25.340 And if she honestly believed that she was pulling out her taser, that's simply not a crime in any jurisdiction and any Western democracy.

00:41:34.720 You just don't make things like that a crime.

00:41:37.780 You have to know what you're doing.

00:41:39.040 You have to get behind the seat of a car knowing you're drunk.

00:41:42.240 You don't intend to kill, but you know you're drunk.

00:41:44.480 You know you've had too much to drink.

00:41:46.320 You have to know something that would lead you to conclude that what you're doing is reckless.

00:41:52.020 In her own mind, what she was doing was exactly what she was supposed to do under good police practice.

00:41:59.040 She made a tragic mistake.

00:42:01.080 She should have been suspended from the police force. 0.99

00:42:03.140 She should be required to have extensive training before she's allowed to use a gun again to make sure she never makes a mistake like that again. 0.92

00:42:11.460 But what she did is simply not criminal.

00:42:14.300 I've heard some people, some libertarians I respect, say in the wake of these shootings we've seen, you know, do the cops really need to be arresting so many people?

00:42:26.720 Do they need to arrest the guy who passed a $20 counterfeit bill, which is what George Floyd was accused of doing?

00:42:33.980 Do they need to, you know, pull over the 20 year old guy who Kim Potter shot, who, you know, may have had some minor violations, at least when they pulled him over.

00:42:44.620 That's what they thought.

00:42:45.540 There's a push now.

00:42:46.600 We've seen it on tape.

00:42:47.800 We've seen like there was a famous clip of a CVS clerk getting shamed for calling the cops on two black shoplifters.

00:42:56.300 A woman taped him, shaming him, saying, how dare you? 1.00

00:42:59.220 You're putting their lives at risk by calling the police on these shoplifters.

00:43:03.580 Meanwhile, it's like some low level clerk who's just trying to follow CBS policy.

00:43:06.580 But what do you make of this growing push of like the responsibility now is on people not to report these lower level crimes and or on police not to arrest folks for committing them?

00:43:20.260 Well, for 50 years, maybe 60, I've been pushing for decriminalization and for not arresting people for minor crimes.

00:43:27.120 It's obviously George Floyd should never have been arrested.

00:43:29.760 He should have been given a ticket and should have been told he has to show up at at court in a month from now, taking his address, taking his I.D.

00:43:37.820 The same thing should have happened for the guy who was stopped for having an air freshener in the back of his car or whatever the reason was.

00:43:45.440 Absolutely correct.

00:43:46.620 We should be arresting fewer people.

00:43:48.620 We should be having fewer police confrontations.

00:43:50.940 And if that kind of reform grows out of this case, it would be a major development.

00:43:55.480 We ought to be decriminalizing a lot of things that are not criminal.

00:43:58.020 Look, it started with that terrible case in Staten Island where a person died having been arrested for selling untaxed cigarettes.

00:44:06.780 Whoever gets arrested for that, you get arrested for that if you're African-American. 1.00

00:44:11.220 There is a discrimination system.

00:44:13.980 People who look like me and you don't get arrested for minor offenses.

00:44:18.000 We get tickets, we get warned, we get if we're young, our parents get called.

00:44:23.460 And if you're black, the most you're much more likely to get arrested, much more likely to be treated improperly.

00:44:30.660 All of those are proper, proper issues to be raised. 0.71

00:44:34.300 But you cannot raise them inside a jury room in a particular case involving a particular defendant standing trial for a particular crime.

00:44:42.880 To everything, there's a season.

00:44:45.660 And we must reform the criminal law.

00:44:48.380 We must make police better.

00:44:49.960 We must give them more non-lethal weapons.

00:44:51.980 That's what's so wrong with the Kim Potter case. 1.00

00:44:54.840 She thought she was using the non-lethal weapon.

00:44:57.400 That's what we want them to do.

00:44:59.740 And yet she made a tragic mistake.

00:45:01.640 So, yes, all these reforms are necessary.

00:45:04.160 And people like Chauvin should never be on any police force in the United States.

00:45:10.940 But there's a big difference between moral guilt and criminal guilt and a big difference between manslaughter guilt and murder guilt.

00:45:18.620 And for our criminal justice system to remain the rule of law, we have to make those calibrated differences and not allow outside pressures to be brought into the courtroom.

00:45:29.780 You know, criminal defense lawyers always say, if you throw a skunk in the jury box, you can take the skunk out, but you can't remove the smell.

00:45:36.880 The air of violence was in that jury room.

00:45:40.900 The jury could not escape the fact that they had to know, the president knew, the mayors knew, everybody knew, that if they convicted on anything less than murder,

00:45:50.540 they would be causing violence that could come back and affect them, their families, their children, their friends and their businesses.

00:45:58.020 That's not the way criminal justice should operate.

00:46:02.060 And that dynamic is indeed the fault of these politicians who use these cases to try to gin up resentments for various reasons.

00:46:10.760 And it must be said, the media, which runs these tapes on loop as representative of, in this instance, cops writ large in a way that's very misrepresentative of what actually happens on the street with no with impunity.

00:46:25.560 Let me tell you, I watched this trial alternately on CNN and Court TV.

00:46:31.480 It was like you were watching two different trials.

00:46:33.920 CNN didn't watch the trial.

00:46:35.720 They were cheerleaders. 0.99

00:46:36.880 They were cheerleaders. 0.99

00:46:37.940 They had everybody cheering and cheering.

00:46:39.680 Their legal analysts didn't know what they were talking about.

00:46:42.300 Their legal analysts were not analysts.

00:46:44.780 They were totally cheerleaders with one or two exceptions. 0.97

00:46:47.760 Court TV, on the other hand, reported it relatively straight.

00:46:51.160 If you watched it on CNN, you would think this was an open and shut case.

00:46:56.820 There's no issue.

00:46:57.580 There's no possible pellet issues.

00:46:59.480 There's no.

00:47:01.060 That's the difference between second degree, third degree.

00:47:03.460 All they were doing was cheering for the right verdict.

00:47:06.720 The way they were cheering for the impeachment of Donald Trump, cheering for many other things.

00:47:12.460 CNN has stopped being a news center.

00:47:15.980 It's become a cheerleader center, and it's too bad because they have some very good journalists,

00:47:21.860 but the journalists have been told in no uncertain terms that they have a mission.

00:47:27.020 They have a mandate.

00:47:28.160 And so when you watch CNN, you don't get an analysis out of the facts.

00:47:34.200 You get a result-oriented cheerleader squad for a particular result, and that's really hurting America.

00:47:41.440 You know, Walter Cronkite couldn't get a job today on a major network because he's too fair.

00:47:46.000 He's too objective.

00:47:47.240 He's not one-sided enough.

00:47:48.880 He's not a cheerleader.

00:47:50.240 And there's something terribly wrong with the way the media reports these trials, and it could leave.

00:47:56.360 If there had been a verdict less than murder, CNN would be partly responsible for the violence that ensued

00:48:04.100 because the viewers of CNN would say, oh, my God, this was such a miscarriage of justice to get a conviction on manslaughter.

00:48:10.740 It would have been a just result, but not if you watch CNN.

00:48:13.880 It's so true. 0.84

00:48:14.580 I'm so glad to hear you say that about Court TV because I confess to you that's where I went for my information on this.

00:48:20.620 I couldn't find anybody on television that I felt was nonpartisan.

00:48:24.440 They all had something they were rooting for.

00:48:27.580 And I like that guy, Vinnie Palatin.

00:48:29.580 He was good the first time Court TV was on, and he's still good.

00:48:32.420 And they had some great reporting from the ground there, and I did think it was very fair.

00:48:36.280 It was right down the middle, and that's hard to do in a case that's this charged.

00:48:40.940 Now, I realize Court TV has got like four viewers, and you and I are two of them, but they did a good job.

00:48:46.860 And if you are committed to being fair, it's actually not that hard.

00:48:51.480 Well, it's hard if you want to sell soap today.

00:48:53.460 And obviously, the networks have made a decision that they don't want to sell their advertising by having fair, neutral assessment because everybody belongs in a silo today, and they want to appeal to the silo.

00:49:09.460 They want to appeal to people who want a particular outcome, and that's why CNN has generally been wrong in making predictions about outcomes of cases.

00:49:18.280 They were right about this one, but they've been wrong about many, many others because they substitute wishful thinking for careful, objective analysis.

00:49:25.560 Mm-hmm, and we do see it on the right, too.

00:49:28.080 Certainly, I mean, I've certainly been listening to certain podcasts and others predicting there's no way he could be convicted.

00:49:33.280 This is a very uphill battle for the prosecution.

00:49:35.480 And I know you and I have been on the same page saying, no, not really.

00:49:40.320 This is actually a pretty decent manslaughter conviction, and we've both had reservations about murder, too, but could see it happening.

00:49:46.200 Indeed, it has, and now it's where I guess it needs to be, which is in the hands of the appellate courts, or soon will be, who will make a hopefully more reasoned, cooler-headed decision about whether that charge belonged in this case to begin with.

00:50:02.100 Alan Dershowitz, I'm so, so grateful to have you in my life on this podcast, and as an advisor, I treasure our conversations.

00:50:10.280 Thank you for being here.

00:50:11.280 Well, I do, too.

00:50:12.060 Thank you so much.

00:50:13.020 You are a real beacon of light in a very, very dark world, and so please keep telling everybody the truth and keep doing what you're doing.

00:50:24.900 Our thanks to Professor Alan Dershowitz, and up next, our legal dream team, Mark Eiglarsh and Arthur Aydala.

00:50:31.720 They got a lot of thoughts.

00:50:33.520 Gets a little feisty in a great way.

00:50:35.320 Love these guys.

00:50:36.040 They're next.

00:50:39.920 Hey, guys.

00:50:40.780 How's it going?

00:50:41.480 It's going well.

00:50:42.340 It was a little nauseating watching TV last night, but, you know, all of a sudden, George Floyd is the greatest hero that's ever walked the planet Earth.

00:50:49.160 Right?

00:50:49.960 Easy.

00:50:50.900 Easy, Arthur.

00:50:52.080 Easy.

00:50:52.500 Yeah, I know.

00:50:53.400 I know.

00:50:53.740 Everyone forgot he put a gun to a pregnant woman, but that's what goes. 0.92

00:50:57.060 No, it's true.

00:50:57.680 Like, the fact that they're naming a square after George Floyd's square.

00:51:00.920 They're naming legislation after him.

00:51:03.440 They're naming all kinds of stuff.

00:51:04.820 I mean, 100 years from now, he's going to be the next Rosa Parks. 0.93

00:51:09.280 It's ridiculous.

00:51:10.560 I mean, honestly, no one's defending what Derek Chauvin did to George Floyd. 0.84

00:51:14.720 No one other than Eric Nelson, his defense lawyer.

00:51:16.860 But but this is what Candace Owens is has been complaining about. 1.00

00:51:20.780 She's like, why?

00:51:21.780 Why must we hold up people who find themselves in these situations and lionize them as though there's in any way representative of the black community?

00:51:31.960 Right.

00:51:32.460 And like and it wasn't here's do we have this?

00:51:35.640 We have the Kamala Harris soundbite guys.

00:51:37.800 We have this.

00:51:38.660 We are all a part of George Floyd's legacy.

00:51:44.000 And our job now is to honor it and to honor him.

00:51:50.620 Got it, Arthur.

00:51:51.420 You're a part of George Floyd's legacy and you need to honor him.

00:51:55.580 Listen, you know who I honored last night?

00:51:57.260 I left my office in Midtown Manhattan late last night and there was literally two police officers on every corner of Fifth Avenue in Manhattan.

00:52:05.260 And I honored every one of those police officers.

00:52:07.540 I went every block I walked.

00:52:08.860 I went to each corner.

00:52:09.800 The majority of them were African-American police officers.

00:52:13.700 And I think the majority of them were women. 1.00

00:52:15.740 And I went over.

00:52:16.520 I was like, thank you.

00:52:17.200 Hey, guys, thank you.

00:52:18.020 Thank you for what you do, because I know last night was a really rough night for them all over the television.

00:52:22.760 It made it seem like every police officer on the planet Earth is is Derek Chauvin, who look, it was the right verdict.

00:52:30.420 It's a good thing that he's going to jail, period.

00:52:32.880 Amen.

00:52:33.160 But this is not, in my opinion, it's not an indictment on every single police officer in the United States of America.

00:52:40.160 Of course not.

00:52:40.800 And most of them really were repulsed by his actions.

00:52:46.000 And so this was this is what what they wanted as well.

00:52:49.940 Makes them look bad.

00:52:51.440 What do you think, Mark?

00:52:52.420 I mean, what do you think of the second degree murder conviction?

00:52:56.260 I think that it was appropriate.

00:52:57.420 I think that they could make the finding that when he continued to kneel on his neck, he was committing an assault and he was clearly the substantial cause of that death.

00:53:08.960 And, Megan, I you know, the question is why?

00:53:11.420 You know, I had this discussion with my 14 year old son.

00:53:13.620 Well, dad, do you think that he meant to kill him?

00:53:15.900 And I said, no.

00:53:16.520 And the jury didn't find that, that it wasn't his intent to do so.

00:53:19.700 So then we analyzed it.

00:53:20.980 And I really don't think this is being talked about as much.

00:53:23.720 I believe that it was all about ego.

00:53:28.100 I believe that he stayed on the neck because people told him to get off. 0.67

00:53:32.780 If they had said to him, keep kneeling on his neck, you're killing him. 0.55

00:53:36.840 Please do so. 1.00

00:53:37.860 Please kill that guy. 1.00

00:53:39.400 I think his ego would have done the opposite. 1.00

00:53:41.960 I agree with Mark 100 percent.

00:53:43.960 The prosecutor said that in I don't remember if it was the initial summation or the rebuttal summation.

00:53:50.760 Initial.

00:53:50.780 But when he said it, I was like, you know what?

00:53:54.280 That's it.

00:53:54.900 I didn't really I didn't put it together.

00:53:56.800 But I'm like, that's it.

00:53:58.060 He has all of these people in his mind, civilians, pedestrians, whatever you want to call them, telling him what to do.

00:54:04.820 And, hey, I'm a cop for all these years. 0.99

00:54:07.540 Screw you. 0.99

00:54:08.440 You kids aren't going to tell me what the hell to do and how to do my job. 1.00

00:54:11.480 And I agree with Mark 100 percent.

00:54:13.300 And obviously, you're not blaming the bystanders.

00:54:16.520 But I think if they weren't there, if that was in an isolated alleyway, George Floyd would be alive today.

00:54:21.560 He would have gotten him down.

00:54:22.860 He would have calmed him down and he would have gotten off his neck. 0.53

00:54:25.540 I said it before.

00:54:26.540 I'll say it again.

00:54:27.360 Go ahead, Mark.

00:54:28.680 Chauvin's ego was not his amigo.

00:54:33.480 It had a bigger windup.

00:54:35.260 I thought it was going to be more profound than that.

00:54:37.960 That's good.

00:54:38.660 I like it.

00:54:39.200 But I think you're right.

00:54:40.740 And, you know, they kicked off the trial with an argument the lawyers did, really, about whether the bystanders were heroes or zeros to take a page out of Mark's Mark's book.

00:54:50.660 And not to blame them at all, but I do think that the crowd was ultimately not a force for good.

00:54:56.980 Yes, having the videotape probably changed the outcome of this.

00:55:00.340 I don't think we would have seen a conviction of Derek Chauvin without that tape.

00:55:04.080 But I also think having them there shouting at him and upping the ante and creating more tension on the scene ultimately proved very dangerous and very detrimental for George Floyd.

00:55:15.760 Yes, Megan, but that's not I'm not.

00:55:18.260 I don't think that you're saying this, but that's not on them.

00:55:21.500 They're doing what humans do.

00:55:23.540 This is all on his ego.

00:55:25.320 In other words, you can't in any way blame or suggest that they did anything improper.

00:55:31.600 It was his reaction to them that determined his fate and the fate of Floyd.

00:55:36.900 They didn't do anything wrong.

00:55:38.280 And don't dismiss the value of that videotape.

00:55:40.940 And absent that videotape, attorneys like Arthur would have had an acquittal across the board.

00:55:45.900 You know, I would love to disagree with both of you.

00:55:48.580 Like, I hope you're both wrong.

00:55:50.560 I would like to think that if you have all of those witnesses, including a nine-year-old girl, if they could validate her ability to testify, you know, you have eight people, nine people testifying.

00:56:03.000 An EMS worker, a woman who actually did testify, if they're all going in front of a jury saying, you know, I don't know how long it was exactly, but it was forever.

00:56:12.340 It seemed like it was forever.

00:56:13.900 I would love to think that there would be a conviction here.

00:56:16.940 And this isn't just because you're a phenomenal lawyer, Arthur.

00:56:19.760 Without that video, I think even a mediocre lawyer can create reasonable doubt.

00:56:24.460 Look at the statistics on how rare it is to convict a white cop who is, you know, who murdered allegedly a black or a person of color.

00:56:36.160 It's never happened.

00:56:37.020 It's never.

00:56:37.520 This is the first time in Minnesota history a white cop was convicted of killing a black civilian on the job.

00:56:43.140 And Megan, it's also the first time I think we've ever seen a video of a cop literally ending the life of someone before our eyes.

00:56:53.840 That's what it takes, unfortunately.

00:56:55.760 That's not proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

00:56:57.480 That's like beyond all doubt because you're seeing it with your own eyes.

00:57:01.080 Well, I agree with you.

00:57:01.700 I don't think there would have been a conviction without the tape.

00:57:03.800 And so and I do not mean to blame the crowd.

00:57:06.200 I'm just talking about the dynamic, the realistic dynamic of how police react when confronted with angry mobs, even whether the whether the anger is justifiable or not.

00:57:17.080 And then I do think there was ego involved in there.

00:57:19.020 I think you're right.

00:57:19.760 I think the more they told him what they wanted him to do.

00:57:23.060 And, you know, the EMT lady is one of the best examples. 1.00

00:57:25.980 Like, I'm an EMT.

00:57:26.840 Let me in there.

00:57:27.840 He doesn't know who she is.

00:57:28.740 He's not going to be bossed around by this civilian. 1.00

00:57:30.360 As far as he knows, he's like, step back or you're about to get maced, lady. 0.54

00:57:34.620 But I don't know, guys.

00:57:35.620 I have to tell you, I have real questions about the second degree.

00:57:38.740 I just think that that required a level of proof.

00:57:44.080 I just don't think we got there.

00:57:45.540 I do think it was criminal recklessness.

00:57:47.200 I don't know about it.

00:57:47.980 I don't know about second degree.

00:57:49.140 It's the second four minutes.

00:57:51.060 In other words, there's four minutes where George Floyd is struggling.

00:57:53.680 And then there's four minutes where he's absolutely motionless.

00:57:56.480 And I think that's the four minutes that it goes from being a reasonable police officer acting reasonably under the circumstances to he now,

00:58:05.380 has breached his duty.

00:58:07.260 He's going against the policy.

00:58:08.720 And now it's just a straight up assault.

00:58:10.500 He's straight up just hurting someone.

00:58:12.520 I think from a legal legal point of view, the murder three, which was the charge that the trial judge threw out because he said that's not applicable here.

00:58:20.680 And then the appellate court basically shoved back down his throat is the one that's a little bit more sketchy because the typical example of that is someone driving a car into Times Square on New Year's Eve.

00:58:33.420 It's supposed to be something even though you're not trying to kill an individual, you know, it could cause the death of another.

00:58:39.560 That's why the trial judge said, no, this isn't a murder three case.

00:58:43.420 But the appellate court said, no, we allowed it to be used against another police officer.

00:58:47.340 So you have to allow it to be used against this.

00:58:49.420 Well, that's why they're not that if you're Eric Nelson, you're not feeling real good about appealing your murder three conviction because the appellate court has already said, yep, that charge applies here.

00:58:57.920 And so now that the jury has said and he's guilty of it, I feel like they have the lowest chance of reversing the conviction on that.

00:59:05.780 You know, they're there with his main grounds.

00:59:07.960 You tell me, I think it's going to be the it's going to be you didn't sequester the jury.

00:59:11.460 You didn't move the jury.

00:59:12.720 You had loudmouths like Maxine Waters coming out there, you know, basically suggesting that there should and would be violence if the jury didn't come to what she viewed as the right decision. 0.88

00:59:21.980 And that he he was unfairly prejudiced as a result of all that.

00:59:26.140 Yeah, that's going to go nowhere.

00:59:28.360 I mean, their best argument is that right, that you you equate it to the Tsarnaev, I can't pronounce his name, but the Boston bombing case where a federal appeals court overturned the dead sentence ruling that there was just an avalanche of pretrial publicity and the judge didn't do what he was supposed to.

00:59:44.780 But that didn't happen here.

00:59:46.260 You know, jurors are allowed to to be exposed prior to the jury trial beginning to an avalanche of pretrial publicity.

00:59:54.520 They can even have publicity in their faces, people with pitchforks outside.

00:59:59.440 But if their decision is made exclusively based upon the evidence that Lord knows with that video, there's enough for the appellate court to say, yeah, they made it based upon the evidence.

01:00:07.620 I don't think it goes anywhere.

01:00:08.700 Yeah, I agree, Mike.

01:00:10.920 I think I think it's got to be more like a Bill Cosby situation where a judge let in so much evidence that is very questionable about whether it's evidence that should have been heard here.

01:00:21.360 The judge did just the opposite.

01:00:23.020 You know, I was on television last time and someone saying, oh, I don't know about this judge.

01:00:27.720 He seems very conservative.

01:00:29.020 He wouldn't let in all these prior bad acts by the police officer.

01:00:32.920 Well, guess what?

01:00:33.420 That's the evidence like you're not supposed to bring in prior bad acts unless they're under certain circumstances, right, specific circumstances.

01:00:41.220 So, you know, I didn't watch every second of the trial, but I did see a lot of it.

01:00:46.620 And I thought Judge Cahill, I think he did a very good job.

01:00:50.340 I think he was he set a good example for the country of what a judge should be, how a judge should interfere when the judge should back off.

01:00:57.120 He basically let both sides try their case.

01:00:59.280 I was surprised, Mark, by the lack of objections on both sides.

01:01:04.840 They were far and few between.

01:01:06.540 Put it that way.

01:01:07.620 I think the defense attorney knew where this is headed.

01:01:10.100 But, Megan, it'll bother me if I don't try to help you out with one of the issues you raised.

01:01:13.860 OK, so let's go back.

01:01:15.120 You're you are you're you're a little troubled with the second degree murder.

01:01:18.360 And I just want to talk about it with you for just one second.

01:01:20.540 OK, let's talk it out.

01:01:22.100 OK, OK.

01:01:23.300 So I know in your numerous hours on TV and radio that you've spoken about murder cases where you've told people, look, premeditation, for example, can be formed in an instant.

01:01:35.040 Right.

01:01:35.420 Where somebody maybe didn't want to kill someone.

01:01:37.860 But then in a second they go, you know, I'm going to reach over there for that gun and I'm going to walk across the house maybe and get that that knife. 0.94

01:01:44.200 And I'm going to now going to kill someone. 0.73

01:01:45.640 So now you've got premeditation. 0.99

01:01:46.760 Right.

01:01:47.560 So similarly, assault, the mindset, the mens rea of do I want to commit an assault on this person?

01:01:55.220 That could be formed in an instant.

01:01:56.780 Right.

01:01:57.220 In this case, you actually had minutes where it was brought to his attention.

01:02:02.040 You're kneeling on this man.

01:02:03.720 He's not resisting.

01:02:04.860 And then he makes the conscious intent to continue to remain on his neck.

01:02:12.020 He is committing an assault.

01:02:13.400 It's either lawful or it's not.

01:02:15.120 It's either justified or it's not.

01:02:17.200 And if it's not, you are committing an assault on this man.

01:02:20.240 And in doing so, no, I know I appreciate that perspective, but I think there was evidence and I accept the jury's verdict.

01:02:28.160 I'm I don't like when people you're allowed to have your thoughts about the jury's verdict, but I don't like when people disparage the jury as being dishonest or whatever.

01:02:35.700 I think that's not what you're doing.

01:02:36.940 That's not what you're doing.

01:02:37.780 Yeah.

01:02:38.300 No, no, not at all.

01:02:39.120 So I accept their verdict, but I just have questions with that charge because I do think there was enough evidence to show that Derek Chauvin, even in those last four minutes, was not intending to hurt George Floyd.

01:02:51.320 That that he had a guy who had been resisting arrest.

01:02:54.660 He had a guy who was much, much larger than he than he was.

01:02:57.800 He had a guy who was kicking even once he was down on the ground, a position that he had requested the police place him in.

01:03:03.880 He had a crowd that he didn't trust, yelling him things about the man who was under his knee.

01:03:08.200 He had a somewhat chaotic situation and he knew that the EMTs were about to get there.

01:03:12.880 I think you can make a reasonable case that it was not an intent to hurt him in those last few minutes.

01:03:18.780 It was an intent to keep the situation stable until medical professionals got on scene.

01:03:24.500 And I think Eric Nelson did that.

01:03:26.220 I think he did that.

01:03:27.280 I mean, I think he look, you know, I know it sounds crazy for me to say this, but in my eyes, that guy's a little bit of a hero, Eric Nelson.

01:03:35.000 That was not a cool job to have in the United States of America the last month.

01:03:39.580 That was not a lot of fun.

01:03:41.900 Right.

01:03:42.440 There was like 16 prosecutors.

01:03:44.140 They called in people who are not prosecutors.

01:03:46.580 They call in Mark Eiglash as a special assistant, a special assistant.

01:03:50.720 They did.

01:03:51.300 They called in all of these private practitioners to come in and help the whole office against Eric Nelson, where the evidence is overwhelming anyway.

01:03:58.660 I mean, I got to be honest with you.

01:03:59.760 If I was an assistant in that office, I'd be pissed off.

01:04:02.220 I'd be like, hold on.

01:04:03.260 We're not good enough.

01:04:04.240 If Mr. Attorney General, you got to call it outsiders.

01:04:07.420 But I think Eric Nelson did the best that he could with what he with with what he had.

01:04:11.920 Well, and let me ask you this.

01:04:13.120 Let me ask you guys this, because you've both been on both sides of it, criminal prosecutors and defense attorneys.

01:04:18.940 What do you think the odds are that right from the get go, Eric Nelson and Derek Chauvin had a conversation in which they agreed, dude, your goose is cooked.

01:04:27.560 I'll do the best I can.

01:04:29.320 But this is a huge, huge uphill battle.

01:04:32.720 Well, well, well, that's that's evidenced by the fact that he went over to the prosecutor and said, we'll plead guilty to I heard I think was Trace Gallagher say it was to the third degree murder.

01:04:43.300 So, of course, you don't have three days, three days after it happened, three days after it happened.

01:04:48.800 He said, I'll do 10 years in jail, but I want you to get me transferred to a federal prison, which is almost impossible.

01:04:56.000 I want you to get me transferred to a federal prison where I could do my time, at least live through it.

01:05:02.080 And what I read yesterday in the paper was that Attorney General William Barr said, no, we're not going to house him in a federal prison.

01:05:08.660 And that doesn't surprise me.

01:05:09.880 It's a jurisdictional thing.

01:05:11.640 But so from from the third day, he we wanted to go in.

01:05:15.200 And yesterday, before the verdict was read, he wrote down Eric Nelson, Chauvin wrote down Eric Nelson's phone number on his hand.

01:05:23.040 So when he went to jail, he knew what number to call his lawyer.

01:05:26.640 Oh, yeah.

01:05:28.380 So you don't have those conversations days after an arrest unless, you know, your goose is cooked.

01:05:34.040 The only question was, you know, could we possibly hang it up, meaning get one juror who might not find him guilty or a lesser charge?

01:05:43.180 Could we possibly fight for that?

01:05:45.320 And I think the defense lawyer with what he had, he did.

01:05:48.120 He did a valiant job.

01:05:49.440 I admire him in the system.

01:05:51.220 By the way, for those who point their finger at him, for those who are happy that Chauvin's convicted, you can thank that defense lawyer.

01:05:57.780 You must have competent counsel by his side so that there's no appeal.

01:06:02.920 So you needed him to make those arguments on his behalf.

01:06:06.520 Up next, we're going to get into some of the reaction that we've had to the verdict from people like Nancy Pelosi.

01:06:11.820 I mean, it's really hard to pick who had the absolute worst reaction.

01:06:17.240 But there was a sleeper candidate who I think really took the prize who's out in California.

01:06:21.880 That's all I'm going to say for now.

01:06:22.860 You've got to stay tuned for one more minute and we'll get to it with the guys.

01:06:26.260 I'm so disgusted by the system.

01:06:35.320 The system's broken.

01:06:36.240 The system isn't working.

01:06:37.520 The system did work.

01:06:38.540 The system's working just fine.

01:06:40.040 It's not perfect and it never will be.

01:06:42.200 But it's damn well better than anything else that's out there.

01:06:44.960 There's no improvement over what we have right now in terms of overall systems.

01:06:49.660 But people never miss an opportunity to push their own agendas.

01:06:52.460 And I'll give you as one example, my favorite.

01:06:55.020 There's so many to choose from.

01:06:56.580 Here's my favorite.

01:06:57.520 Because who we really needed to hear from was the first lady of California, the woman married to Gavin Newsom.

01:07:03.660 Everyone was asking themselves, what does Jennifer Newsom think?

01:07:06.960 What does this nitwick have to say about it?

01:07:08.980 Does she have any background whatsoever that would make me want to hear from her?

01:07:13.400 Oh, well, in case you didn't know how badly you want to hear from her, here's how she sees it.

01:07:17.800 But today's verdict offers a retribution on toxic masculinity and a ray of light in the fight for racial justice. 1.00

01:07:26.000 Jennifer, shut the fuck up. 1.00

01:07:28.480 That's what I have to say to Jennifer. 1.00

01:07:29.960 This has nothing to do with toxic masculinity, you asshole. 1.00

01:07:32.960 And you're not helping. 1.00

01:07:34.100 I'm sorry, but I can't stand these people who mouth off without knowing anything in a way that's not only moronic, but just unhelpful. 0.80

01:07:42.140 Well, there was a lot of that yesterday on television, a lot of that. 0.91

01:07:46.440 And as I said, it was like an indictment of everything we do.

01:07:49.760 Meanwhile, the system worked.

01:07:51.840 I mean, I understand what Mark cited earlier about the conviction rate of police officers.

01:07:58.220 Bill Bratton was on the foot.

01:07:59.820 So he was the commissioner of New York twice, Boston and L.A.

01:08:03.580 And thank God, because he kind of came to the defense of policing overall.

01:08:09.080 But he brought up two points, and I agree with both of them.

01:08:11.580 Number one, guess what, folks?

01:08:13.520 We got to pay police officers more.

01:08:16.160 The biggest issue is recruitment.

01:08:17.900 He was telling us, he was saying it last night, they can't get people to be police officers, number one, because look at them.

01:08:24.460 Now the crosshairs are on them.

01:08:25.880 But number two, they don't get enough paid enough money to raise a family.

01:08:28.940 They should have higher educational standards.

01:08:31.580 He said they are lowering the standards because they can't recruit enough people.

01:08:34.880 And thirdly, and most importantly, the way lawyers have to do continuing legal education training every year.

01:08:41.500 He said police officers should have to do continuing training every year with new techniques, using the new technology to try to protect and serve to the best way they can.

01:08:51.120 They need more money, not less money, right?

01:08:54.220 The more you take money from the police, it's not like they say, all right, let's turn in our guns, right?

01:08:59.160 It's like they take away training.

01:09:01.160 That's that's where it goes.

01:09:02.280 They're not going to take away the people's weapons.

01:09:04.120 They're going to and they're going to remove police from the places that need them most.

01:09:07.460 The inner cities where the crime rate is highest.

01:09:09.120 But, you know, I was I was sitting here reflecting.

01:09:11.500 I don't think I heard a damn thing either of you said in the last minute, because I was still reflecting on what does this mean?

01:09:16.180 Right.

01:09:16.680 Well, we should talk about the Gavin Newsom's wife, because that was an important one for you to hear.

01:09:21.740 I didn't hear anything after you curse twice.

01:09:23.880 I just I did.

01:09:24.760 But once I heard that, I kind of changed the rules of the game for me.

01:09:27.640 But OK, right.

01:09:28.660 I know where we stand now.

01:09:29.920 The greatest podcast ever.

01:09:31.560 OK, so.

01:09:33.160 Right.

01:09:33.540 I've heard Meg and Kelly talk a long time.

01:09:35.320 I've never heard those bombs anyway.

01:09:37.140 All right.

01:09:37.480 So let me get back to why I was dozing off because not dozing off, but thinking.

01:09:41.800 OK, so people are saying this shows that we've got justice and the system works.

01:09:46.880 And here's what here's what's only changed.

01:09:49.740 OK, we now know this is what this case stands for.

01:09:52.820 Really.

01:09:53.380 And I'm sorry to bum people out.

01:09:55.000 It stands for the proposition that there is a strong likelihood that when there's a video of the entire crime being committed, that that likely the person, the cop may get convicted.

01:10:06.500 That's it.

01:10:07.720 Absent of video.

01:10:08.960 No, I disagree with you, Mark.

01:10:10.360 I disagree with you.

01:10:11.300 I think I did.

01:10:12.320 The video, the video in and of itself, the video in and of itself really illustrates and brings to reality in the forefront that these things do happen.

01:10:23.820 And this does happen out there.

01:10:25.960 And police officers do make mistakes.

01:10:27.980 And there are some bad apples in the apple cart.

01:10:31.180 And they didn't know the next cop.

01:10:32.800 The next cop who goes on trial, people will think, hey, the way Chauvin did this horrible thing, that maybe this cop who I'm judging did a horrible thing as well.

01:10:43.160 I disagree.

01:10:44.120 You know what I'm going to say?

01:10:45.180 No, I'm going to say I'm going to say there's no video.

01:10:47.620 There's no video.

01:10:48.620 This is not like Chauvin's case you all saw.

01:10:50.820 There's no video.

01:10:52.000 There's no this.

01:10:52.580 There's no that.

01:10:53.240 And thus, there's reasonable doubt.

01:10:55.240 OK, so the videos, I think, overall are a force for good when used appropriately by the media.

01:11:00.200 But they're not.

01:11:00.800 They're not.

01:11:01.380 You know, they're used to exploit a narrative, you know, of the system's bad.

01:11:04.940 Cops are bad.

01:11:05.880 Everything. 0.98

01:11:06.260 Everybody's racist.

01:11:06.940 But the video, I think, for a decent officer is their friend.

01:11:11.380 And that's that's what we're seeing in this case out of Columbus, Ohio, with this this young woman, 15 year old Micaiah Bryant, who we're being told by people like Ben Crump was unarmed and shot by cops.

01:11:23.100 And the cops went out yesterday and released the slow frame by frame.

01:11:28.740 They walked us through it.

01:11:29.660 And you very clearly see a knife in Micaiah Bryant's hand as she tries to attack another young woman, at which point the police officer fired.

01:11:38.700 I'm in favor of more body cams, more evidence, more visuals.

01:11:42.960 If you're a bad cop, you shouldn't you shouldn't worry about that.

01:11:46.160 Right.

01:11:46.340 Most police commissioners are in favor of more body cameras, but most police commissioners want them.

01:11:50.740 They think it's good.

01:11:51.380 It's best for their officers because they have the confidence in their officers ability and their officers integrity.

01:11:57.780 And they think the body cameras are going to help them, not hurt.

01:12:00.640 Yeah.

01:12:00.820 If you're a good cop, you shouldn't worry.

01:12:01.900 But wait now, listen, because I want to get back to some of the reactions, which are just so absurd and infuriating.

01:12:06.460 Of course, the attorney general of Minnesota, Keith Ellison, is this is not an honest broker and he never has been.

01:12:14.940 He wasn't when he was in the U.S. Congress.

01:12:16.580 He isn't now.

01:12:17.620 He's ultimately in charge of this case.

01:12:19.380 And this this is what he had to say in the wake of yesterday's verdict.

01:12:23.260 Listen to him.

01:12:23.660 We have seen Rodney King, Abner Louima, Oscar Grant, Eric Garner, Michael Brown, Freddie Gray, Sandra Bland, Philando Castile, Laquan McDonald, Stefan Clark, Atiana Jefferson, Anton Black, Brianna Taylor, and now Dante Wright and Adam Toledo.

01:12:43.720 Well, this has to end the work of our generation is to put an end to the vestiges of Jim Crow and the centuries of trauma and finally put an end to racism.

01:12:58.320 So dishonest, so dishonest.

01:13:00.580 Ten million arrests a year by the cops.

01:13:03.260 At best, a thousand people killed a year by police, the vast, vast majority of whom are armed, are armed.

01:13:09.340 Only a handful of unarmed defendants lose their lives to police officers.

01:13:15.260 And the number last year was 14 of those were black.

01:13:18.380 To suggest and to list Michael Brown and Freddie Gray as examples of how how bad the system is and how it all needs to be reformed, that he's a dishonest broker and no one in the mainstream media will call him out on it.

01:13:33.820 Hmm. Well, well, Alan Dershowitz said he was going to resign from the Democratic Party if he was if he was elected the head of the National Democratic Party.

01:13:41.860 So Alan's been been complaining about this guy forever.

01:13:46.180 And it was the last thing he mentioned.

01:13:48.020 Was that the 13 year old in Chicago who was killed last week?

01:13:52.060 Toledo? I don't remember.

01:13:53.840 But, you know, how about we have a conversation about we have a conversation about number one, why is a 13 year old out in the streets at three o'clock in the morning?

01:14:02.300 Can we start there and then let's take this huge leap?

01:14:05.620 Why is a 13 year old at three o'clock in the morning out with a gun?

01:14:08.880 I mean, can we reverse and start at the beginning?

01:14:13.240 Why is this child not being supervised?

01:14:15.040 He's a child and a child who shouldn't be dead.

01:14:17.880 But you know what? If he was home in bed sleeping as he should have been, he'd be alive and going to school.

01:14:22.900 And Dante Wright, Dante Wright is the one who was shot accidentally by this police officer, Kim Potter, who's now been charged with manslaughter.

01:14:30.220 You could see the accident unfold.

01:14:31.960 In all these cases, they push a race narrative when there's zero evidence that any that Kim Potter's accident was because of the race of Dante Wright or that race played any role.

01:14:42.600 In most of those cases, there's zero evidence of that.

01:14:45.340 And in some of those cases, like Michael Brown and Freddie Gray, you had exonerations by either jurors or attorney generals or other finders of fact who were black.

01:14:53.880 And yet the narrative must survive.

01:14:56.440 The narrative must survive.

01:14:58.680 I'm not going to defend every case because they're all so different.

01:15:02.920 I was going to ask you which ones you took exception to.

01:15:05.460 But I get the concept.

01:15:06.720 You know, if you're a if you're a black mother and you've got a black child, whether they're out and they shouldn't be out in the street or not, there is a number of injustices occurring.

01:15:17.740 And I get the concept.

01:15:19.200 And I'm going to give him a little bit more leeway than you guys are because of the pain and the suffering and because we know racism is still alive.

01:15:25.960 And we know that while it might be a small percentage, as you suggest, it's still alive and well.

01:15:31.820 And I understand the thought behind what he was saying.

01:15:36.620 I think it's exploitative and it's just it's deliberately deceptive because that's the way he's lived his life.

01:15:43.000 But go ahead, Arthur.

01:15:43.640 To elaborate on Mark's comments, I think what the idea is, I recently read Johnny Cochran's autobiography, which was fantastic, by the way.

01:15:55.100 And, you know, but things were very different when he was doing things in the 60s, in the 70s than they are today on so many levels.

01:16:01.060 But I think the point is, is that if this young man was in Johnny's book is driving while black, like that was a crime, like you would just get pulled over because you were a black person.

01:16:11.080 But so they're saying that they're being harassed merely because of the color of their skin.

01:16:16.380 However, the reason why I don't go for that argument is because of technology.

01:16:20.380 They ran someone's license plate and they saw that there was a warrant out for that person's arrest and therefore or the registration was expired or whatever it was.

01:16:28.440 But there was a legitimate violation.

01:16:30.880 And that's why the person was pulled over, not because of the color of their skin, because of what the computer said that that license plate came up with.

01:16:38.280 I'm not I'm not denying that there's there's no that there's racism in the United States or that there that some cops are racist.

01:16:44.760 Obviously, they're humans.

01:16:47.020 This is we're never going to be perfect in these regards.

01:16:49.960 But the numbers don't lie.

01:16:52.460 The numbers tell the story.

01:16:54.400 And there is not an epidemic of cops shooting unarmed black men, not not even anything close.

01:17:01.580 There is an epidemic of black on black violence in major cities like Chicago that continues to go unaddressed. 0.78

01:17:10.300 And you and of course, a double standard. 0.98

01:17:12.720 You know, you've got people saying the most inane, ridiculous things about the Michael Brown verdict that if the shoe were on the other foot, if it were said by a Fox News anchor, let's say, or or a Republican politician, the left would be losing its mind.

01:17:24.920 And I give you, as example of that, Nancy Pelosi for the win. 0.77

01:17:30.260 Listen to her.

01:17:30.800 So, again, thank you, George Floyd, for sacrificing your life for justice, for being there to call out to your mom.

01:17:40.720 How heartbreaking was that?

01:17:42.780 Call out for your mom.

01:17:44.080 I can't read.

01:17:45.700 But because of you and because of thousands, millions of people around the world who came out for justice, your name will always be synonymous.

01:17:57.860 Oh, my God.

01:17:58.980 Thanks for dying.

01:18:00.240 Thanks so much for dying. 0.78

01:18:01.400 Oy vey.

01:18:02.580 Oy vey, as my people would say.

01:18:04.900 George Floyd is a victim.

01:18:06.200 There's no doubt he's a victim.

01:18:07.980 Period.

01:18:08.320 Amen.

01:18:08.680 He shouldn't have died.

01:18:09.440 He shouldn't have been killed.

01:18:10.320 But, you know, that's that's not, you know, he's but he's not a hero.

01:18:15.820 In my opinion, that's Arthur's opinion.

01:18:17.860 There may be someone else who feels differently, but he's a victim.

01:18:20.680 The guy who victimized him is going to go to jail for a long time, probably have a rough time in there.

01:18:25.600 You know how they're going to protect him, Megan?

01:18:26.900 They're going to make him be all alone.

01:18:28.860 And, you know, they're passing laws all over the country about how cruel solitary confinement is.

01:18:35.440 So he's going to get his coming up.

01:18:37.200 I mean, it's that that's the whatever that word is.

01:18:39.760 At least I'm a curse.

01:18:41.200 At least I didn't say a filthy word, Megan. 0.58

01:18:43.880 But, you know, I just the politicians, the president, the United States, the vice president, the fact that the president, the United States, while the jury's deliberating or before they deliberated, said I'm praying for the right outcome.

01:18:56.920 I mean, that's not the that's not how the system is supposed to work.

01:18:59.840 And the judge said it.

01:19:01.400 It's a it's a trial judge.

01:19:03.240 Cahill said it about Maxine Waters that basically referring to the separation of powers and that this is not, you know, a congressperson's purview to start, you know, mouthing off.

01:19:13.000 Of course.

01:19:13.380 But that's that's what Maxine Waters does. 1.00

01:19:15.180 But wait, I've got to ask you about the other defendants.

01:19:18.040 What do you think is going to happen now to the other cops who have been charged?

01:19:21.160 I mean, does this increase the likelihood of conviction or no?

01:19:25.500 Are those still just totally separate?

01:19:27.460 It's certainly, first of all, increases the likelihood of them taking a plea.

01:19:31.500 They are crapping right now because they see the atmosphere.

01:19:35.600 They see how easy it is to convict.

01:19:37.720 And they're very they're scared.

01:19:40.140 So I think let them take a plea, though, Mark.

01:19:42.080 I mean, they may not they may say, no, we want to you know, we want to do this whole thing again.

01:19:45.400 I mean, they shouldn't if the guy is willing to admit his guilt and serve some serious jail time.

01:19:51.400 But I think each one of those is going to be, you know, the way.

01:19:56.360 Look, there's no case that we've known of.

01:19:58.180 We've all of us have spoken about that has had more video that have taken inches away than this case.

01:20:04.000 So I think each defense attorney is going to have to look at what his client did.

01:20:07.940 Right.

01:20:08.400 Break it down second by second and say, look, this is a paramilitary organization.

01:20:13.860 These rookies that are on the force, they can't tell a 20 year veteran don't do this or don't do that.

01:20:19.480 They'll get in trouble.

01:20:21.300 So for sure, those cases are different than this one.

01:20:26.520 Those guys, I'm still not convinced, will be convicted the way that Chauvin was.

01:20:32.620 I think that that the evidence needs to be applied specifically to them and they need to get a fair trial.

01:20:39.900 It's just it's not the same.

01:20:41.820 I it's just not the same as Chauvin.

01:20:43.480 All right. So before we go, I like I like where you went with it, Mark, with like your overall thought on it is your overall thought on what we take away from this horrible case in this horrible year that we've had in its wake.

01:20:57.040 Is I'll let you sum it up. Go ahead.

01:20:59.660 Yeah. Unfortunately, it's going to be a skeptical point of view.

01:21:03.440 And that is I don't think that anything changed from this case from one last week or the week before or a year before, except that when there's a video showing somebody taking the life of somebody, then, yeah, you have a better chance of convicting someone.

01:21:19.500 I don't think that this means anything in terms of of changing in the jury system about how cops are going to be convicted when they harm people.

01:21:27.640 And the other thing I said was Chauvin's ego is not his amigo. Thank you.

01:21:32.500 And I respectfully disagree, Your Honor.

01:21:35.020 I do think what we saw last night and what we saw last May and the whole year in between, I think there's going to be there.

01:21:42.580 There already has been fundamental policy changes within the police departments, as well as an overall feeling of cops aren't invincible when they walk into a courtroom.

01:21:54.000 Always a pleasure chatting, my friends, but all good segments must come to an end.

01:21:59.660 And why should you mount that with soap, Megan? 0.83

01:22:06.060 Thanks for listening, you guys. What a show and what a year, right?

01:22:10.860 Just the whole thing is just let's be thankful that this piece of it is over.

01:22:14.600 OK, let's just be thankful for that today.

01:22:16.460 And say a prayer, say a prayer for the family of George Floyd, for Derek Chauvin, for those who love him.

01:22:25.880 If there are, they weren't present at all throughout this process, for the lawyers, for everybody who put it on the line in this process.

01:22:33.040 My heart goes out to those who are on the streets protesting, and I understand why this is so charged.

01:22:39.060 But it's also with our country and its soul and what it stands for and what it's actually about today.

01:22:46.400 Anyway, I'm glad to have you guys here sharing the moments with me and working it out with me.

01:22:51.560 And I'm really glad about what's going to happen on this program on Friday.

01:22:54.860 I'm honored to bring you Paul Rossi.

01:22:57.640 He is the math teacher at Grace Church School here in New York City, who has made national headlines this week.

01:23:03.580 After he took a stand against the indoctrination that his school was forcing down the throats of the teachers and the students there.

01:23:11.420 At great risk to himself and his career.

01:23:14.060 And sure enough, he's been removed from his teaching duties for simply saying,

01:23:20.620 I have questions about you making me and my students see everything through a racial lens.

01:23:26.800 I mean, truly, that's all he said.

01:23:28.760 His entire world has fallen apart now.

01:23:30.860 They've gone after him.

01:23:32.080 He taped the head of school and you will hear those tapes right here on the program in his first long form sit down interview.

01:23:40.340 So that's Friday.

01:23:41.200 Please don't miss it.

01:23:42.480 And be sure to subscribe to the show so that you don't subscribe, download, rate five stars, please.

01:23:47.160 And give me a review.

01:23:47.860 Let me know what you think of today's show in the review section.

01:23:50.940 Still read them all and really appreciate your thoughts.

01:23:54.180 Talk to you Friday.

01:23:56.100 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. 0.94

01:23:58.140 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

01:24:02.080 The Megyn Kelly Show is a Devil May Care media production in collaboration with Red Seat Ventures.

The Megyn Kelly Show - April 21, 2021

Chauvin Found Guilty - What it Means, and What Happens Next, with Alan Dershowitz, Arthur Aidala and Mark Eiglarsh ｜ Ep. 92

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