The Megyn Kelly Show - Chloé Valdary on Redemption, Race, and Combating The Outrage Mob ｜ Ep. 15

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00:00:30.740 When I found out my friend got a great deal on a wool coat from Winners,

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00:01:01.320 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:01:03.260 Your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:01:12.180 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:01:15.620 Today we have Chloe Valdary. 1.00

00:01:18.360 This is a young woman who has looked at the state of race relations

00:01:21.140 in this country and decided to do something about it.

00:01:24.360 She is the anti-Robin D'Angelo. 0.70

00:01:27.420 She is a woman of color.

00:01:28.680 She is a writer.

00:01:29.680 She is a public speaker.

00:01:30.980 And she created the theory of enchantment. 0.99

00:01:34.160 This is the thing you need to offer to your company

00:01:37.840 when they try to cram critical race theory down your throat.

00:01:41.380 It is something that is uplifting.

00:01:44.000 It is forgiving.

00:01:44.980 It is kind.

00:01:45.620 It is loving.

00:01:46.200 And it does not assume the worst of humanity.

00:01:49.240 She's got a lot of interesting thoughts on race,

00:01:51.480 on humanity, on our country,

00:01:53.700 and on where we go from here.

00:01:55.500 And I know you're going to love her.

00:01:57.000 But before we get to Chloe, let's talk about coffee.

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00:02:14.340 its CEO and founder is Evan Hafer.

00:02:16.780 And this guy started after over 20 years in the U.S. Army

00:02:19.540 as an infantryman and special forces soldier,

00:02:22.120 not to mention CIA contractor,

00:02:23.660 his own coffee company.

00:02:25.140 He started roasting this stuff in 2006

00:02:27.320 to take with him while overseas.

00:02:29.040 And he modified his gun truck

00:02:31.180 in the invasion of Iraq to grind his coffee.

00:02:33.880 He founded the coffee company in 2014,

00:02:36.600 along with his buddy, Army Ranger Matt Best.

00:02:38.640 As the combination of two passions,

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00:02:46.920 They have donated tons of this stuff

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00:03:14.260 And now, Chloe Valdary.

00:03:19.100 Chloe Valdary, thank you so much for being here.

00:03:21.980 Thank you for having me, Megan.

00:03:23.300 I know you're young,

00:03:24.640 especially to have accomplished all you've accomplished.

00:03:26.760 How young are you?

00:03:28.140 I'm 27 years old.

00:03:30.000 You're just, you're a babe. 0.98

00:03:31.140 You have accomplished so much in your 27 years.

00:03:34.280 You have such a deep and interesting way

00:03:36.020 of thinking about the world, humanity, race relations.

00:03:40.580 And I want to tell you in the audience

00:03:41.940 that the reason I first noticed you

00:03:43.620 was in a sea of vitriol on Twitter

00:03:47.080 in the midst of the riots this summer

00:03:49.840 and the just acrimonious race relations

00:03:52.860 we've been seeing.

00:03:53.640 There was one beacon of kindness, hope, positivity, love,

00:04:00.600 and a different way of thinking.

00:04:03.180 And it was you, a black woman raised in New Orleans

00:04:07.080 who was just sort of urging people

00:04:09.620 to consider coming at it all from a different way.

00:04:13.180 And I would later learn this is all part of what you teach

00:04:16.200 and travel and talk about,

00:04:18.680 which is the Chloe Valdary theory of enchantment.

00:04:22.600 Can you just give us a line or two on what that is?

00:04:26.740 Yeah, absolutely.

00:04:27.780 So Theory of Enchantment is my startup

00:04:29.840 and I use it to teach compassionate anti-racism

00:04:33.780 to companies primarily, but also to individuals.

00:04:38.020 And it's based upon social emotional learning,

00:04:40.480 developmental psychology,

00:04:41.520 and this idea that you can't really develop

00:04:44.260 healthy relationships with others

00:04:45.780 unless you first develop a healthy relationship with yourself.

00:04:48.620 And so it's a 25 lesson course

00:04:52.200 teaching people how to do just that,

00:04:55.400 how to deal with the human condition,

00:04:56.700 how to make peace with themselves,

00:04:58.400 how to develop a sense of inner contentment and wholeness

00:05:01.240 so that they can then go out in the world

00:05:03.260 and really spread that love

00:05:04.680 and spread that light to others.

00:05:06.020 As I see it, and I haven't taken the course,

00:05:09.700 but as I read about it,

00:05:11.800 to me, it seems like the opposite

00:05:13.960 of Robin DiAngelo's white fragility.

00:05:16.460 Like I see her as out there saying,

00:05:18.960 you know, you're all biased, racist, 0.80

00:05:21.860 and any denial of that just proves my theory.

00:05:24.360 And you're just the title, compassionate anti-racism.

00:05:27.460 It's not like you don't admit there's racism in the world,

00:05:30.160 but you, nor do you demonize entire groups of people,

00:05:35.000 or even if you see a racist act,

00:05:38.220 demonize the individual.

00:05:39.680 You have a much more holistic,

00:05:43.020 and I would say forgiving approach to this problem.

00:05:45.940 Do I have it right?

00:05:47.600 Yeah, I think that's right.

00:05:48.620 I mean, we try to, you know,

00:05:50.420 pursue this concept of agape love,

00:05:53.320 which Dr. King famously pursued in a lot of his work.

00:05:56.700 And we're definitely very, I think,

00:05:59.320 antithetical to the philosophy of Robin DiAngelo,

00:06:02.660 because as you said,

00:06:03.440 we don't believe in dehumanizing even the offender.

00:06:06.960 And in fact, we believe that a lot of racism

00:06:10.700 comes from this sort of function

00:06:13.820 of overcompensation for insecurity.

00:06:16.360 And so if you make people feel more insecure,

00:06:19.820 you're actually creating the conditions

00:06:21.420 that make racism and other forms of extremism more likely.

00:06:24.720 So we don't take that route of, you know,

00:06:28.360 dehumanizing people based upon their skin color

00:06:31.360 or assuming we know where they come from

00:06:33.480 because of their skin color or socioeconomic status

00:06:36.720 or what have you.

00:06:37.560 We really believe in elevating everyone

00:06:39.880 and elevating the human condition

00:06:42.300 and giving people the tools to, again,

00:06:44.660 make peace with themselves

00:06:45.520 and have that inner sense of contentment

00:06:47.340 so that they don't feel insecure

00:06:49.560 and then go out and overcompensate

00:06:51.480 for that insecurity in problematic ways.

00:06:54.920 It's funny because I look at some of these young kids,

00:06:58.620 let's say, you know, college age kids

00:07:00.000 who get in trouble for saying something perceived as racist.

00:07:04.020 And in society, too, it's not just the young kids,

00:07:06.580 but the reaction these days is almost universally,

00:07:11.060 you're bad, you're a racist, you're awful.

00:07:14.540 And I always think to myself,

00:07:16.200 who exactly do they think that's going to convert

00:07:19.420 out of their racism?

00:07:20.600 Yeah, I mean, we definitely believe in the philosophy

00:07:23.560 of restorative justice in theory of enchantment

00:07:26.960 and we teach different elements of that,

00:07:29.200 which, of course, is very relevant

00:07:30.760 to criminal justice reform.

00:07:33.020 And we believe in this idea

00:07:35.320 of the interdependence of all human beings.

00:07:37.380 And so, yeah, we try to create, again,

00:07:40.620 the conditions that make forgiveness ripe

00:07:44.340 and forgiveness more likely.

00:07:45.740 But also, we don't believe in call-out culture,

00:07:48.260 we believe in calling-in culture.

00:07:50.020 So, yeah, I think also you have to remember

00:07:52.900 that, unfortunately, there's a lot of incentive

00:07:56.060 just from the perspective of being on social media platforms

00:08:01.160 that where our attention as an audience

00:08:03.800 is actually the product.

00:08:04.820 And there's a lot of incentive to create content

00:08:07.500 that will drive outrage.

00:08:10.060 And I think that that seeps into the culture

00:08:12.120 where we're constantly being outraged.

00:08:13.820 And so we have to step back and ask,

00:08:17.800 you know, what our goals are,

00:08:18.920 what our objectives are

00:08:20.520 in terms of creating the conditions

00:08:22.800 for human flourishing and work toward that

00:08:24.720 as opposed to just being-

00:08:25.820 But nobody wants that.

00:08:27.140 Don't you think?

00:08:27.980 I look around and I'm like,

00:08:29.040 I don't think that's people's goal,

00:08:30.500 human flourishing.

00:08:31.840 I think it's like they enjoy being outraged

00:08:33.720 a lot of folks.

00:08:35.360 And when these incidents come up,

00:08:37.400 what they want to do is walk away with a scalp,

00:08:39.420 you know, and it somehow,

00:08:40.640 it makes them feel good.

00:08:42.080 Yeah, but my sense is that

00:08:44.300 it's probably not a long-term thing.

00:08:46.980 You know, it's like a dopamine rush.

00:08:48.880 And obviously one of the things

00:08:50.760 that connects us all as human beings

00:08:52.240 is that we all have the same software

00:08:54.480 in our heads, a.k.a. our brains.

00:08:56.760 And we are dealing with

00:08:58.800 a sophisticated piece of software

00:09:01.220 in the sense that

00:09:02.080 we have the limbic system, right,

00:09:05.200 which is responsible for fast thinking.

00:09:07.460 And then we have the prefrontal cortex,

00:09:09.740 which is more prone to slow thinking,

00:09:13.620 to more rational thinking.

00:09:15.580 But unfortunately, again, I think,

00:09:17.480 especially now that we're constantly

00:09:19.160 on social media all the time,

00:09:20.780 we are incentivized

00:09:22.560 from a media perspective

00:09:24.160 to be outraged.

00:09:25.220 And so I think it's important

00:09:26.060 to get more voices out there

00:09:27.280 that are speaking about slowing down

00:09:29.020 and, again, encouraging people

00:09:30.940 to think about what their objectives are

00:09:32.940 as opposed to just sort of like

00:09:34.920 acting like a pinball machine

00:09:37.080 and just going, you know,

00:09:38.780 from different outraged piece of content

00:09:42.080 to the next.

00:09:43.420 Yeah, we have been programmed,

00:09:45.640 programmed to do that.

00:09:46.940 When I was looking at

00:09:48.020 the theory of enchantment,

00:09:49.480 one of the things you talked about

00:09:50.760 in your materials is

00:09:52.680 how you want to give people

00:09:54.100 the tools for resiliency.

00:09:56.820 And that spoke to me

00:09:57.740 because I really,

00:09:59.240 whenever somebody asks me,

00:10:00.500 how did you get to be this way?

00:10:02.220 How did you get to be so strong?

00:10:03.540 You know, something like that.

00:10:04.380 I say a lot of bad stuff happened to me

00:10:07.500 and I dealt with it and moved forward.

00:10:09.400 You know, like I wasn't protected

00:10:11.060 from really anything.

00:10:12.740 Bad things happened.

00:10:13.700 I dealt with them.

00:10:14.440 And here I am.

00:10:15.240 That's really the sum of it,

00:10:16.760 which is one of the reasons

00:10:17.580 I don't believe in safe spaces.

00:10:19.380 But today,

00:10:21.340 if you talk about,

00:10:22.240 certainly as a white person,

00:10:23.380 if you talk about resiliency

00:10:24.980 to a black person

00:10:26.460 talking about racism,

00:10:29.100 they're going to take that

00:10:30.280 as further proof of your racism, right?

00:10:33.280 Like, don't tell me

00:10:34.360 I need to be resilient.

00:10:36.140 You don't understand

00:10:37.120 what I've been through.

00:10:38.160 You don't know what it's like

00:10:39.220 to deal with, you know,

00:10:40.460 what many perceive

00:10:41.600 as a systemically racist country.

00:10:43.820 And so I wonder

00:10:44.880 if you ever get that

00:10:46.760 as a black woman

00:10:47.640 talking about this theory

00:10:49.120 and talking about resiliency,

00:10:51.540 does anyone look at you

00:10:53.240 and say,

00:10:53.880 that's just based

00:10:55.260 on such fundamentally

00:10:56.260 flawed assumptions

00:10:57.220 about what black people

00:10:58.480 are capable of

00:10:59.500 in this country?

00:11:00.620 Um, you know,

00:11:02.860 not really.

00:11:03.560 And, and I, you know,

00:11:05.520 we teach a lot of James Baldwin

00:11:06.660 in the actual training

00:11:08.860 and he famously said,

00:11:10.700 you know, you,

00:11:11.680 sometimes you can get caught

00:11:13.520 in this trap

00:11:14.100 where you think that

00:11:14.900 you're the only person

00:11:16.420 who's experienced suffering

00:11:17.580 and then you sort of read

00:11:18.840 and you learn

00:11:19.460 and you live throughout the world

00:11:20.820 and you learn that,

00:11:21.640 you know,

00:11:22.240 suffering is a part

00:11:23.540 of the human condition.

00:11:25.080 And other,

00:11:25.880 other people experience

00:11:26.740 suffering as well.

00:11:27.580 And I also think that

00:11:28.760 resiliency is actually

00:11:30.220 a, a feature

00:11:32.720 of the African-American tradition.

00:11:35.600 Again, we,

00:11:36.360 we reinforce it

00:11:37.700 by having our students

00:11:39.000 learn from folks

00:11:40.440 like James Baldwin

00:11:41.160 and Dr. Maya Angelou

00:11:42.440 and Martin Luther King Jr.

00:11:44.220 So I think it's very difficult

00:11:45.660 for people to,

00:11:46.580 to make that challenge

00:11:48.700 just because we're coming,

00:11:50.420 we're, we're coming

00:11:51.100 in a very like educational

00:11:52.940 and integrated way.

00:11:54.660 But how do we, how do we get,

00:11:55.600 because when I hear you

00:11:56.260 talking about that,

00:11:56.820 I completely agree

00:11:57.520 just on a human level.

00:11:58.440 I've talked about this

00:11:59.020 when it comes to sexism

00:11:59.920 many times that it,

00:12:01.380 it's not that you don't

00:12:02.560 experience it.

00:12:03.480 You, you may very well,

00:12:04.440 I've experienced it,

00:12:05.240 but I just refuse

00:12:05.940 to stay mired in it

00:12:06.940 and I refuse to allow it

00:12:08.100 to give me a negative

00:12:08.780 world outlook

00:12:09.600 or to make me believe

00:12:10.820 for one second

00:12:11.360 that I'm not capable

00:12:12.180 of anything I want to do.

00:12:13.740 And when I read your materials,

00:12:15.200 that's, that's how I hear you

00:12:16.480 speaking about people of color.

00:12:18.440 And I, but I, I wonder

00:12:20.140 because now you see anger

00:12:23.280 in the wake of George Floyd

00:12:24.800 and other cases

00:12:26.060 that the media

00:12:26.720 has played over

00:12:28.460 and over and over

00:12:29.320 as though it's representative

00:12:30.420 of what's happening

00:12:31.300 day to day

00:12:32.000 on the streets of America.

00:12:34.480 I see anger.

00:12:36.040 I see, you know,

00:12:37.540 when you see some of these riots,

00:12:38.960 just uncontrollable rage.

00:12:40.740 And I think it's going

00:12:43.820 another way, you know,

00:12:44.960 even reading books

00:12:45.700 like White Fragility 0.99

00:12:46.420 and reading Ibram X.

00:12:47.560 Kendri, Kendri,

00:12:48.700 Kendi, how do you,

00:12:49.360 how to be an anti-racist?

00:12:51.200 It's not based in

00:12:52.720 we're strong,

00:12:53.840 we're resilient,

00:12:55.040 we can work together,

00:12:56.380 we're all human.

00:12:58.020 You know, it's,

00:12:58.580 it's coming from

00:12:59.540 a very different place.

00:13:00.620 Can you speak to that

00:13:01.520 sort of anger

00:13:02.240 and how you see

00:13:03.740 the way forward

00:13:04.440 to get folks out of that?

00:13:06.820 Yeah, I mean, listen,

00:13:07.900 I, I would be remiss

00:13:10.140 if I sort of downplayed

00:13:12.620 the challenge

00:13:13.740 that we have

00:13:15.020 to convince people

00:13:16.780 or encourage people

00:13:18.000 to, I think,

00:13:19.240 overcome that rage

00:13:20.460 that you describe

00:13:21.280 or move from rage

00:13:22.820 to reconciliation.

00:13:24.540 And, and it is,

00:13:26.400 you know,

00:13:27.360 Theory of Enchantment

00:13:28.000 is certainly positioned

00:13:29.200 as the alternative

00:13:30.360 to Ibram Kendi

00:13:31.680 and Robin DiAngelo's

00:13:32.940 model for that reason.

00:13:34.640 You know, I believe

00:13:35.420 in reminding people

00:13:36.660 of those who have

00:13:38.220 come before us,

00:13:38.960 those, those wise people

00:13:39.940 who have come before us

00:13:40.780 who have left us

00:13:42.320 with words of wisdom

00:13:43.080 to teach us

00:13:43.700 how to deal with that rage

00:13:44.720 and to transcend that rage.

00:13:47.760 And so I,

00:13:49.380 I am very aware of,

00:13:51.220 you know,

00:13:51.360 sort of like the,

00:13:52.020 the landscape

00:13:52.960 of what's going on out there.

00:13:54.860 And this is,

00:13:56.040 you know,

00:13:56.500 a kind of fight

00:13:57.280 that we have to wage,

00:13:58.540 but I just intend

00:13:59.920 to wage it with love

00:14:00.860 because I think

00:14:01.300 that's the only way

00:14:02.160 to really overcome

00:14:03.580 some of this,

00:14:04.600 this rage.

00:14:05.260 You can't really,

00:14:06.140 you can't really fight rage

00:14:07.160 by, you know,

00:14:08.360 being vengeful

00:14:09.240 or rageful yourself.

00:14:10.120 So I have to do

00:14:11.260 all I can to model,

00:14:13.220 you know,

00:14:13.940 agape love,

00:14:14.960 reconciliation,

00:14:16.140 you know,

00:14:17.280 on social media

00:14:18.100 and in the things

00:14:18.900 that I do professionally.

00:14:20.120 And I,

00:14:20.800 I also have to believe

00:14:21.900 that that will be able

00:14:22.800 to make a difference.

00:14:23.720 And I do believe

00:14:24.360 that that will make

00:14:25.700 a difference.

00:14:26.040 I think I've seen

00:14:27.280 that begin

00:14:28.780 and it's a,

00:14:29.320 it's a marathon.

00:14:30.500 It's not a sprint.

00:14:31.640 And I'm okay with that.

00:14:32.660 I think that this is

00:14:33.380 a beautiful,

00:14:35.380 dare I say it,

00:14:36.240 fight worth fighting.

00:14:37.760 And I'm really happy

00:14:38.880 to be in the position

00:14:39.900 that I am in

00:14:40.940 to fight it.

00:14:42.540 More with Chloe

00:14:43.220 in one minute.

00:14:43.900 But first,

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00:16:21.660 Now,

00:16:23.040 back to Chloe Valdary.

00:16:28.660 You have good role models.

00:16:30.120 You mentioned

00:16:30.480 Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.,

00:16:31.780 who's,

00:16:32.540 I think it's sort of nuts

00:16:33.880 how some people are like,

00:16:34.860 don't talk about him.

00:16:35.840 You know,

00:16:36.080 those days are over.

00:16:37.220 You know,

00:16:37.760 we're beyond that.

00:16:38.920 The current situation

00:16:39.940 calls for something else.

00:16:41.360 But he was,

00:16:42.300 of course,

00:16:42.520 all about nonviolence

00:16:43.880 and even practiced,

00:16:46.300 practiced.

00:16:47.520 He and other

00:16:48.900 Black people

00:16:49.880 in the 1960s

00:16:50.760 not responding

00:16:52.120 to violence

00:16:52.900 violently

00:16:53.960 and morally

00:16:55.640 it gave them

00:16:56.500 the upper hand

00:16:57.200 to win that fight.

00:16:58.880 Right?

00:16:59.100 And it's like,

00:17:00.480 we don't seem to be

00:17:01.560 taking the lessons

00:17:02.280 from that

00:17:02.880 or at least,

00:17:03.620 I don't know.

00:17:04.180 You know,

00:17:04.300 when I see sort of BLM

00:17:05.460 out in the streets

00:17:06.140 flipping people's

00:17:07.400 dinner tables over

00:17:08.240 and like making them

00:17:09.600 raise a fist

00:17:10.160 and say what they

00:17:10.720 want them to say,

00:17:11.480 I think this is exactly

00:17:12.340 the opposite

00:17:12.900 of people

00:17:14.640 who used to,

00:17:16.180 who knew

00:17:16.480 they'd get beaten

00:17:17.180 for eating

00:17:18.240 at the white

00:17:19.640 restaurant,

00:17:21.480 you know,

00:17:21.900 counter

00:17:22.660 and were prepared

00:17:24.340 to emerge

00:17:25.300 with the moral high ground.

00:17:27.400 Well,

00:17:28.020 I think what's

00:17:28.560 a little bit

00:17:28.940 challenging here

00:17:29.820 is you have

00:17:31.220 BLM,

00:17:31.760 the organization,

00:17:33.080 which is

00:17:34.080 a non-centralized

00:17:35.500 organization

00:17:36.060 and then

00:17:37.120 the majority

00:17:37.820 of people

00:17:38.380 who identify

00:17:39.460 with BLM

00:17:40.520 who know nothing

00:17:41.080 about the organization,

00:17:42.520 which means

00:17:43.160 that the

00:17:44.280 movement itself

00:17:45.980 can actually

00:17:46.440 be co-opted.

00:17:47.360 But that's actually,

00:17:49.080 I think it's

00:17:49.800 an incredible opportunity

00:17:50.780 because to the extent

00:17:52.100 that it can be

00:17:52.840 co-opted for bad,

00:17:54.020 it means it also

00:17:54.740 can be co-opted

00:17:55.520 for good.

00:17:56.660 So that's one thing

00:17:57.220 to consider.

00:17:57.740 But the other thing

00:17:58.280 to consider

00:17:58.880 with this

00:18:00.880 is that

00:18:01.380 I actually don't think

00:18:02.420 most people

00:18:02.980 are intimately familiar

00:18:03.980 with the writings

00:18:04.880 and teachings

00:18:05.360 of Dr. King.

00:18:06.640 And so part of

00:18:07.440 what we're trying

00:18:08.000 to do with theory

00:18:09.060 is really

00:18:09.580 get our clients

00:18:11.600 and get the people

00:18:12.360 that we service

00:18:12.860 to actually seriously

00:18:13.620 study their writings.

00:18:14.660 What a lot of people

00:18:16.180 don't realize

00:18:16.740 is that

00:18:17.420 Dr. King

00:18:18.460 and, you know,

00:18:20.100 folks like John Lewis

00:18:20.860 and individuals

00:18:21.500 during the Civil Rights Movement

00:18:22.640 practiced nonviolence

00:18:24.040 because they believed

00:18:25.520 that the oppressor

00:18:26.520 quote-unquote

00:18:27.600 was also a victim

00:18:29.000 of his own ways

00:18:30.160 of thinking.

00:18:30.780 And so they believed

00:18:31.620 that the oppressor

00:18:32.640 was also made

00:18:33.500 in the image of God.

00:18:35.520 And this is something,

00:18:36.580 this is a very,

00:18:37.460 this is a spiritual

00:18:38.320 foundation

00:18:39.040 that I think is missing.

00:18:40.040 And this is sort of

00:18:40.860 a crisis of modernity

00:18:42.380 in a sense,

00:18:43.700 but the spiritual

00:18:44.780 foundation

00:18:45.260 is missing

00:18:47.040 from a lot

00:18:48.080 of our conversations.

00:18:48.840 And this is something

00:18:49.900 we also hope

00:18:50.640 to really bring back

00:18:51.920 to the forefront

00:18:52.500 is like the conversation

00:18:54.420 around spirituality

00:18:55.120 and trying to root

00:18:56.060 what we do

00:18:56.600 in a more spiritually

00:18:58.080 grounded approach

00:18:59.920 as opposed to just

00:19:00.700 like a more materialistic

00:19:01.820 approach.

00:19:02.900 Well, I wanted to ask

00:19:03.440 you about that

00:19:03.800 because I know that

00:19:04.400 I've read what you've

00:19:05.600 said about wokeness,

00:19:07.100 you know,

00:19:07.260 this wokeness craze.

00:19:08.960 And you said

00:19:09.720 one of the things

00:19:10.680 you think is driving

00:19:11.400 it is there's

00:19:12.300 sort of a lack

00:19:12.800 of purpose going

00:19:13.600 on for some folks

00:19:14.480 now and that people

00:19:15.580 while they may be

00:19:16.340 materially enriched,

00:19:17.940 maybe, maybe not

00:19:18.740 these days,

00:19:19.780 they're spiritually

00:19:21.080 impoverished.

00:19:22.360 How is spiritual

00:19:23.580 impoverishment

00:19:24.520 leading to wokeness?

00:19:26.860 Yeah, so I think

00:19:27.540 that there's a great

00:19:28.720 deal of alienation

00:19:29.860 that we're forced

00:19:31.420 to contend with.

00:19:32.480 And I don't think

00:19:33.500 there's anyone,

00:19:34.560 I don't think anyone

00:19:35.280 is like at fault

00:19:36.620 per se.

00:19:37.320 Again, I think

00:19:37.780 it's a crisis

00:19:38.520 of modernity.

00:19:40.900 Timothy P. Carney

00:19:41.780 wrote about this

00:19:42.700 in his book

00:19:43.180 Alienated America.

00:19:44.640 And this is a challenge

00:19:46.720 that has really affected

00:19:47.760 everyone in the country

00:19:49.360 from the left

00:19:50.640 to the right.

00:19:51.880 And what's unfortunately

00:19:53.560 going on, I think,

00:19:55.300 is people

00:19:56.880 on the reactionary right

00:19:57.900 and people

00:19:58.300 on the woke left

00:19:58.980 are suffering

00:19:59.860 from alienation

00:20:00.800 but are oftentimes

00:20:02.920 implementing policies,

00:20:04.860 implementing solutions

00:20:05.660 that actually

00:20:06.580 perpetuate alienation

00:20:07.980 even more

00:20:09.060 in the name

00:20:09.600 of trying to

00:20:10.680 stop it.

00:20:11.800 And this includes

00:20:12.400 otherizing people.

00:20:14.040 And this is something

00:20:14.700 that we as human beings

00:20:15.600 have always done.

00:20:16.900 This is like the,

00:20:18.800 we tend to think

00:20:20.060 in either or ways

00:20:20.980 of thinking,

00:20:22.040 especially when we

00:20:23.460 think our security

00:20:25.640 or safety

00:20:26.180 is under threat,

00:20:27.340 whether perceived

00:20:28.100 or real.

00:20:29.000 And so we're prone

00:20:29.580 to start thinking

00:20:30.140 in those very

00:20:30.720 shortcut,

00:20:31.540 reductive ways.

00:20:32.320 But the challenge

00:20:33.920 here, I think,

00:20:34.920 and this speaks

00:20:35.300 to the spiritual issue,

00:20:36.360 is to create solutions

00:20:37.680 that take away

00:20:39.440 that sense of alienation,

00:20:40.600 that bring back

00:20:41.120 that sense of community,

00:20:42.480 again, that bring back

00:20:43.500 that sense of reconciliation

00:20:45.120 and the beloved community,

00:20:48.700 as Dr. King spoke of.

00:20:50.500 And this requires

00:20:51.600 that we sort of rewire

00:20:53.840 our brains

00:20:54.660 and rewire

00:20:55.240 how we choose

00:20:56.940 to be in relationship

00:20:58.060 with each other,

00:20:59.060 which to me, again,

00:21:00.000 begins with being

00:21:01.220 in a healthy relationship

00:21:02.160 with yourself.

00:21:03.360 And this is even

00:21:04.260 more of an issue

00:21:05.140 because of COVID,

00:21:06.880 because we're

00:21:08.060 neurobiologically

00:21:09.460 wired for connection

00:21:10.840 and we're experiencing

00:21:12.500 long periods

00:21:14.800 of isolation

00:21:15.760 and disconnection.

00:21:16.920 And so we have

00:21:17.360 to work overtime

00:21:18.040 to really keep

00:21:19.040 ourselves in check

00:21:19.920 and make sure

00:21:21.540 that we take

00:21:22.680 the steps

00:21:23.020 that we can take

00:21:23.900 to foster connection

00:21:25.040 with one another

00:21:25.740 and really try to avoid.

00:21:27.620 I think everybody's

00:21:28.240 been feeling that.

00:21:29.440 It's not even

00:21:30.220 just the quarantine

00:21:31.660 and the reduced

00:21:33.120 socialization,

00:21:34.260 but even when

00:21:35.360 you are with somebody,

00:21:36.180 you've got the mask on,

00:21:37.500 there's another layer

00:21:38.360 between the two of you.

00:21:39.480 There's just a,

00:21:40.100 it's just not as intimate

00:21:41.200 as it used to be.

00:21:43.120 And I feel like,

00:21:44.340 of course,

00:21:44.640 thanks to the iPhone

00:21:45.480 and the tablets

00:21:46.080 and all that,

00:21:46.760 we're not as intimate

00:21:47.420 as we used to be.

00:21:48.360 And there's just a,

00:21:49.600 we were socially distanced

00:21:50.700 before we were socially distanced.

00:21:52.700 And, you know,

00:21:53.420 you can feel us

00:21:54.460 growing apart

00:21:55.100 as a society

00:21:56.040 as opposed to,

00:21:57.180 I mean,

00:21:57.500 I was looking

00:21:58.480 at the latest Gallup poll

00:21:59.680 and I realize

00:22:00.640 this has to do

00:22:01.880 with a lot more

00:22:02.460 than the iPhone,

00:22:03.360 but it was saying

00:22:04.280 that the people's views

00:22:06.440 of race relations

00:22:07.580 right now in the country

00:22:08.340 are lower

00:22:09.800 than they've been

00:22:10.340 in 20 years.

00:22:11.000 That as recently

00:22:12.260 as 2013,

00:22:14.500 more than 60%,

00:22:15.900 66% of Americans

00:22:17.360 describe race relations

00:22:18.400 as good,

00:22:19.680 pretty good,

00:22:20.380 pretty good,

00:22:20.820 somewhat good,

00:22:21.260 very good.

00:22:21.920 And today,

00:22:22.540 just 44% say that.

00:22:24.380 So, I mean,

00:22:24.780 what,

00:22:25.080 what do you think

00:22:26.720 factors into that?

00:22:28.480 I mean,

00:22:28.920 I imagine a whole host

00:22:30.100 of things factor in.

00:22:32.360 I actually think

00:22:32.860 the iPhone

00:22:33.300 does play a role

00:22:34.440 because if,

00:22:35.640 if people are only,

00:22:37.980 if people are constantly

00:22:39.040 exposed

00:22:39.820 to videos

00:22:41.760 of police brutality

00:22:42.920 and this is the only thing

00:22:44.080 that they're exposed to,

00:22:45.220 then perception

00:22:46.020 is reality.

00:22:47.360 And people will believe

00:22:48.740 that that is the only thing

00:22:49.760 that's going on

00:22:50.660 if that's the only thing

00:22:51.740 that they're exposed to.

00:22:52.780 So, I do think

00:22:53.280 the iPhone plays a role.

00:22:55.120 And again,

00:22:55.740 like the outrage machine

00:22:57.240 and that being connected

00:22:58.820 to a sense of dopamine

00:23:01.340 plays a role as well.

00:23:04.740 But also,

00:23:05.240 I think on the other hand,

00:23:06.360 like if you were to look

00:23:07.800 at critical race theory,

00:23:09.340 which is becoming

00:23:10.260 a bit of a prominent thing

00:23:13.520 in certain institutions,

00:23:15.120 certainly in academia,

00:23:16.200 but slowly but surely

00:23:17.380 creeping into the business

00:23:18.400 world as well.

00:23:19.080 Um, I think that

00:23:20.600 that is also,

00:23:21.720 so I would,

00:23:22.940 I would say that

00:23:23.720 I would argue

00:23:24.840 that that also suggests

00:23:26.360 a,

00:23:26.840 a,

00:23:27.500 um,

00:23:28.280 decrease

00:23:28.780 in good race relations,

00:23:30.360 actually.

00:23:31.020 So,

00:23:31.280 I'm not,

00:23:32.100 I'm not that surprised

00:23:33.300 that that poll

00:23:34.660 reflects,

00:23:35.240 um,

00:23:36.000 those numbers.

00:23:37.400 I,

00:23:37.560 I was reading

00:23:38.120 Jonathan Capehart

00:23:39.160 in the Washington Post

00:23:40.120 who had read

00:23:40.820 White Fragility 0.99

00:23:41.580 and he was talking

00:23:43.020 about the tears

00:23:43.660 he had in his,

00:23:44.480 in his eyes

00:23:45.160 at feeling recognized

00:23:46.420 by Robin DiAngelo

00:23:47.540 and,

00:23:48.520 and lauding

00:23:50.060 the moment

00:23:51.120 that she,

00:23:52.500 she was about

00:23:53.780 to leave the room

00:23:54.620 and I,

00:23:55.060 and I wrote down

00:23:55.540 the quote he wrote.

00:23:56.780 She said to me,

00:23:57.920 I'm going to look

00:23:58.920 at you now

00:23:59.580 and say,

00:24:00.820 on behalf of my people,

00:24:02.780 I apologize.

00:24:04.760 I want you to know

00:24:05.740 that as long as I'm alive,

00:24:06.780 I will work

00:24:07.280 to wake my people up,

00:24:08.480 to continue my own process

00:24:09.760 and to see

00:24:10.600 that we can recover.

00:24:11.580 And at least

00:24:12.600 when I am at the end

00:24:13.520 of my life,

00:24:14.180 I can say

00:24:15.380 I did what I could.

00:24:17.040 Now,

00:24:17.480 if I said that

00:24:18.340 to my Black friends,

00:24:19.640 Chloe,

00:24:19.980 they would laugh me

00:24:20.700 out of the room.

00:24:21.700 Yeah.

00:24:22.060 Like,

00:24:22.420 what,

00:24:23.860 you're,

00:24:24.500 I'm not your victim,

00:24:25.960 right?

00:24:26.240 Like,

00:24:26.440 that's,

00:24:26.840 that's what they would say

00:24:27.920 to me.

00:24:28.200 So,

00:24:28.320 but I do feel like

00:24:29.040 being lectured

00:24:30.120 that you're supposed

00:24:30.540 to begin and end

00:24:31.260 conversations like that

00:24:32.320 and then having to sit

00:24:33.220 down at your employer

00:24:33.980 and be told that

00:24:34.780 you just have to listen

00:24:35.880 to what a racist you are

00:24:37.100 and how whiteness

00:24:38.060 is equivalent

00:24:38.880 with white supremacy

00:24:39.940 and not say anything

00:24:41.560 it makes the white

00:24:43.280 people resentful.

00:24:44.080 Well,

00:24:45.340 it also makes,

00:24:46.460 you know,

00:24:46.800 some white people

00:24:47.380 confused

00:24:48.000 because I've,

00:24:50.000 I've heard from people

00:24:51.220 who have said,

00:24:51.720 you know,

00:24:52.040 I've read Robert D'Angelo

00:24:53.100 and clearly this

00:24:54.180 doesn't make any sense,

00:24:56.020 but I don't know

00:24:56.700 what to do

00:24:57.280 because this is popular,

00:24:58.940 you know,

00:24:59.260 it's invoked,

00:25:00.020 so I'm a little confused.

00:25:01.820 But yeah,

00:25:02.460 I mean,

00:25:02.680 it's a very like

00:25:03.420 narcissistic perspective

00:25:05.580 that like my,

00:25:07.740 my sense of

00:25:08.960 the richness of life

00:25:10.200 should revolve

00:25:11.240 around this person

00:25:12.380 merely because

00:25:13.180 of her pigmentation.

00:25:14.220 I should also say though

00:25:15.000 that I think this

00:25:15.660 actually is a byproduct

00:25:16.960 of our hyper-consumerist

00:25:19.140 society.

00:25:20.400 I mean,

00:25:20.640 Ibram Kendi

00:25:21.160 and both Ibram Kendi

00:25:22.820 and Robert D'Angelo

00:25:23.740 I think actually see race

00:25:25.400 as a form of capital,

00:25:27.100 which is,

00:25:27.360 which is incredibly

00:25:28.840 dehumanizing

00:25:30.320 to say the least.

00:25:32.360 And I think that

00:25:32.840 that plays a role

00:25:33.700 in a lot of these

00:25:35.000 conversations

00:25:35.600 where we're seeing people

00:25:36.760 not as individuals,

00:25:38.600 right,

00:25:38.780 but as sort of like

00:25:40.480 the quote-unquote

00:25:41.440 races to which

00:25:42.680 they belong.

00:25:43.480 And also a lot

00:25:44.620 of this is

00:25:45.600 just,

00:25:47.680 a lot of this

00:25:48.320 is painting

00:25:49.460 a false reality.

00:25:50.740 The fact of the matter

00:25:51.480 is,

00:25:51.920 as again,

00:25:52.580 Albert Murray pointed out

00:25:53.600 in Omni Americans,

00:25:55.260 that America

00:25:56.460 is a very mixed race

00:25:57.740 country,

00:25:58.380 right?

00:25:59.000 There are very,

00:25:59.820 there are actually

00:26:00.280 very few

00:26:01.320 Black Americans

00:26:03.700 in the country

00:26:04.660 that are not also white

00:26:05.740 and very few

00:26:06.420 white Americans

00:26:07.020 in the country

00:26:07.600 that are not also Black.

00:26:08.540 So there's a lot

00:26:09.720 of confusion.

00:26:12.140 There's a lot

00:26:12.700 of conflating

00:26:13.260 of race with culture.

00:26:14.360 There's a lot

00:26:14.680 of confusion

00:26:16.220 around what exactly

00:26:16.960 And socioeconomic class.

00:26:18.520 Exactly,

00:26:19.060 yes.

00:26:19.680 And also,

00:26:20.360 there's just confusion

00:26:21.400 about misdefining

00:26:23.520 terms as a thing.

00:26:24.840 So,

00:26:25.120 you know,

00:26:25.280 I think we need

00:26:25.740 to get back

00:26:27.260 to a spiritual

00:26:28.000 foundation

00:26:28.900 and again,

00:26:29.980 really ask,

00:26:30.540 like,

00:26:30.960 what is the vision

00:26:31.620 of the future

00:26:32.060 we're trying to create?

00:26:34.040 And for me,

00:26:34.440 what do you think?

00:26:35.560 Like,

00:26:35.720 when you hear,

00:26:36.660 because I hear people

00:26:37.320 ask me this all the time,

00:26:39.040 what should I do?

00:26:40.160 When somebody,

00:26:40.780 when my employer

00:26:41.280 comes to me

00:26:41.820 and says I have to sit

00:26:42.680 for one of these

00:26:43.160 critical race theory

00:26:44.120 sessions where

00:26:45.380 I'm going to be told

00:26:46.540 my whiteness

00:26:47.600 makes me a white supremacist,

00:26:49.540 what should they do?

00:26:52.240 Well,

00:26:52.480 that's a great question.

00:26:53.200 I get a lot of emails,

00:26:54.220 actually,

00:26:54.940 of people reporting

00:26:56.160 what's happening

00:26:56.720 in their workplaces.

00:26:58.360 I would say,

00:26:59.980 try to see

00:27:01.120 if you can engage

00:27:02.740 your higher-ups

00:27:04.480 on bringing

00:27:05.140 an alternative program.

00:27:06.840 I mean,

00:27:07.180 I obviously

00:27:07.660 promote

00:27:08.460 and would love

00:27:09.340 for more people

00:27:10.100 to bring theory

00:27:10.780 of enchantment

00:27:11.360 into their workplace.

00:27:13.000 So,

00:27:13.760 we have a lot

00:27:14.280 of free resources

00:27:14.900 on our website

00:27:15.480 that people can send

00:27:16.400 to their higher-ups

00:27:17.560 to check out

00:27:18.180 what we offer.

00:27:19.240 But also,

00:27:20.000 I think,

00:27:21.180 from what I've heard

00:27:22.220 about what happens

00:27:23.120 when these types

00:27:25.120 of other frameworks

00:27:25.980 are brought in,

00:27:26.660 it causes a lot

00:27:27.500 of animosity,

00:27:28.980 it causes a lot

00:27:29.880 of rifts

00:27:30.320 between coworkers,

00:27:31.860 and quite frankly,

00:27:33.900 it opens up

00:27:34.920 the door

00:27:35.380 for potential liability

00:27:36.720 because it actually

00:27:38.180 perpetuates workplace

00:27:39.240 discrimination

00:27:39.700 on some level.

00:27:41.040 So,

00:27:41.220 I think,

00:27:41.700 if there are any

00:27:43.060 higher-level executives

00:27:46.340 listening to this,

00:27:47.420 it's important

00:27:48.000 to be aware

00:27:48.940 of that

00:27:49.360 and to make sure

00:27:50.940 you're not bringing

00:27:51.520 in a program

00:27:52.140 that is actually

00:27:52.720 actively promoting

00:27:54.080 workplace discrimination

00:27:54.900 because you could be

00:27:56.460 held liable

00:27:56.980 for that.

00:27:57.420 Now,

00:27:58.600 have you had

00:27:59.480 any of the fallout

00:28:00.560 that people

00:28:02.000 like Glenn Lowry,

00:28:03.940 Coleman Hughes

00:28:04.380 have had

00:28:04.820 where as a result

00:28:06.120 of your somewhat

00:28:07.420 heterodox views

00:28:08.360 on these issues

00:28:09.020 and how to go

00:28:09.560 about improving

00:28:11.440 race relations,

00:28:13.020 you're referred to

00:28:14.140 as the C word

00:28:15.860 rhymes with

00:28:17.500 boon.

00:28:19.680 Yeah.

00:28:20.640 I'm trying to think

00:28:21.420 of a not-awful way

00:28:23.260 of communicating it.

00:28:24.580 I mean,

00:28:24.740 have you had blowback

00:28:25.740 for not sounding

00:28:27.060 more like Kendi

00:28:27.960 and less like Lowry?

00:28:31.060 No,

00:28:31.620 I mean,

00:28:32.040 I really think

00:28:32.940 it depends on

00:28:33.420 how you define

00:28:34.300 blowback.

00:28:34.960 Are there like

00:28:35.460 some people

00:28:36.020 on my Twitter

00:28:36.660 who might take

00:28:37.480 offense and insult me?

00:28:39.200 Yes,

00:28:39.440 but I don't really

00:28:39.980 consider that blowback,

00:28:41.400 you know,

00:28:41.680 especially compared

00:28:42.400 to what other

00:28:43.800 people who have

00:28:44.480 come before us

00:28:45.100 have gone through

00:28:45.640 for standing up

00:28:46.300 for what's right.

00:28:47.480 Also,

00:28:48.000 I'm aware

00:28:48.440 of the fickle

00:28:49.600 nature of social media

00:28:50.780 and I have actively

00:28:53.920 and I'm constantly

00:28:55.200 trying to train myself

00:28:56.400 not to respond

00:28:57.320 to every little

00:28:57.960 thing that happens.

00:28:59.340 That's good.

00:29:00.420 Yeah,

00:29:00.580 I know that if

00:29:01.380 something goes viral

00:29:02.240 today,

00:29:02.620 it's not going

00:29:03.200 to be relevant

00:29:03.720 tomorrow.

00:29:05.320 So I'm less inclined

00:29:06.980 to pay attention

00:29:07.640 to those things anyway

00:29:08.600 and I haven't really

00:29:09.540 seen a lot of that

00:29:10.560 as a response.

00:29:12.500 On the flip side,

00:29:13.280 I'm going to guess

00:29:13.880 that you

00:29:14.940 in your 27 years

00:29:16.140 have experienced racism.

00:29:18.220 I mean,

00:29:18.340 this is sort of

00:29:18.820 the blowback

00:29:19.260 for not complaining

00:29:19.920 more about racism,

00:29:20.780 but I'm sure

00:29:21.860 you've experienced racism

00:29:23.080 in your 27 years

00:29:24.080 as well.

00:29:24.620 I mean,

00:29:25.100 definitely.

00:29:26.040 What has that

00:29:27.020 looked like

00:29:27.640 and how have you

00:29:28.920 avoided bitterness?

00:29:34.340 That's a good question.

00:29:36.300 I mean,

00:29:37.100 it's looked like

00:29:38.000 the typical,

00:29:38.780 you know,

00:29:39.900 sort of use

00:29:40.640 of slurs

00:29:41.680 and certainly

00:29:44.020 the N-word

00:29:44.740 toward me,

00:29:46.400 toward my person

00:29:47.180 and how

00:29:49.480 do I avoid

00:29:50.240 bitterness.

00:29:51.200 I think

00:29:51.740 this is why

00:29:54.120 I believe

00:29:54.800 so much

00:29:55.300 in actually

00:29:56.240 engaging

00:29:56.760 with the texts

00:29:57.900 of folks

00:29:59.160 that have come

00:29:59.640 before us

00:30:00.220 because they

00:30:00.800 sort of gave us

00:30:01.380 a roadmap

00:30:01.840 of specifically

00:30:02.520 how to deal

00:30:02.940 with bitterness.

00:30:04.400 I'm aware

00:30:05.260 that bitterness

00:30:06.040 and rage

00:30:06.840 actually corrupts

00:30:07.820 the person

00:30:08.400 who is

00:30:10.640 sort of

00:30:11.200 stuck in it

00:30:12.580 and I don't

00:30:15.280 want to be

00:30:15.640 that person.

00:30:16.480 I want to

00:30:17.180 always try

00:30:18.020 to transcend

00:30:18.640 and always

00:30:19.440 try to be,

00:30:20.800 try to have

00:30:21.480 that sense

00:30:22.200 of wholeness

00:30:22.720 because I'm

00:30:23.140 aware of

00:30:23.560 the cruel

00:30:24.420 cycle that

00:30:25.360 insecurity

00:30:26.140 can really

00:30:26.920 play in a

00:30:28.000 person's life.

00:30:29.560 I'm really

00:30:30.180 blessed.

00:30:30.860 Can I just ask

00:30:30.900 you,

00:30:31.340 can I ask

00:30:32.060 you before

00:30:32.440 because I

00:30:32.940 completely agree

00:30:34.140 with this

00:30:34.480 attitude

00:30:34.920 and I do

00:30:36.320 think,

00:30:36.640 you know,

00:30:37.900 when you

00:30:38.240 hold that poison

00:30:39.060 inside of you,

00:30:39.680 you're the first

00:30:40.060 one to suffer

00:30:40.520 from it,

00:30:41.660 whatever the

00:30:43.160 reason is

00:30:43.580 that you're

00:30:43.740 being put down

00:30:44.300 or attacked

00:30:44.760 but,

00:30:46.000 and if you

00:30:46.540 don't want

00:30:46.780 to talk

00:30:47.040 about this,

00:30:47.400 I understand

00:30:47.720 but did

00:30:48.600 somebody

00:30:48.920 actually look

00:30:49.640 at you

00:30:50.000 and say

00:30:50.600 the n-word

00:30:51.120 to you?

00:30:51.620 I mean,

00:30:51.820 you were

00:30:52.040 actually called

00:30:52.740 that by

00:30:53.200 another human?

00:30:54.640 Yeah,

00:30:54.980 definitely.

00:30:58.200 And some,

00:30:59.140 like what,

00:30:59.720 what does it

00:31:00.320 take to

00:31:02.140 then not

00:31:02.660 extrapolate?

00:31:03.380 I assume

00:31:03.660 it was a

00:31:03.880 white person.

00:31:05.040 Yeah.

00:31:05.820 Okay,

00:31:06.160 so what does

00:31:06.640 it take to

00:31:07.120 not extrapolate

00:31:07.900 that to

00:31:08.280 other white 0.66

00:31:09.660 people,

00:31:10.240 right?

00:31:10.460 Like this

00:31:10.880 is what

00:31:11.280 quote,

00:31:11.500 they

00:31:12.100 think of

00:31:13.060 me.

00:31:13.320 This is

00:31:13.620 why there

00:31:14.160 is a

00:31:14.420 division

00:31:14.760 between

00:31:15.180 them

00:31:15.920 and

00:31:16.640 me.

00:31:17.820 Because I

00:31:18.020 feel like

00:31:18.280 right now

00:31:18.600 as a society

00:31:19.180 we're going

00:31:19.600 the other

00:31:19.860 way.

00:31:20.220 You know,

00:31:20.320 I was always

00:31:20.700 raised to

00:31:21.120 think,

00:31:21.840 I was told

00:31:22.920 you don't

00:31:23.360 stereotype.

00:31:24.100 You know,

00:31:24.180 if you see

00:31:24.560 a black man

00:31:25.980 doing something

00:31:26.680 illegal,

00:31:27.600 that doesn't

00:31:28.180 mean anything

00:31:28.900 about black

00:31:29.860 people as a

00:31:30.400 whole.

00:31:30.780 But I feel

00:31:31.080 like right

00:31:31.380 now all the

00:31:31.820 messaging is

00:31:32.340 exactly the

00:31:32.800 opposite,

00:31:33.420 right?

00:31:33.620 That your

00:31:34.460 skin color

00:31:34.880 determines

00:31:35.260 everything about

00:31:35.840 you,

00:31:36.400 good and

00:31:36.800 bad.

00:31:36.940 Yeah.

00:31:37.820 Yeah.

00:31:38.220 So I

00:31:38.600 think,

00:31:39.140 I think

00:31:40.220 that in

00:31:41.200 that situation

00:31:42.180 I recognized

00:31:43.820 that what

00:31:44.520 was going

00:31:44.820 on had

00:31:45.120 nothing to

00:31:45.540 do with

00:31:45.820 me and

00:31:47.640 had everything

00:31:48.160 to do with

00:31:49.300 the person

00:31:49.920 and what

00:31:50.980 state of

00:31:51.620 mind they 0.91

00:31:52.060 were in.

00:31:53.240 I think

00:31:53.780 that we

00:31:54.260 as human

00:31:54.780 beings are

00:31:55.560 always experiencing

00:31:57.220 movies in

00:31:57.940 our heads and

00:31:58.940 projecting certain

00:32:00.060 things that we're

00:32:00.820 experiencing internally

00:32:01.660 in the external

00:32:02.520 world.

00:32:03.900 And so this

00:32:04.760 individual was

00:32:05.600 projecting

00:32:06.140 something that

00:32:07.680 had nothing to

00:32:08.200 do with me.

00:32:08.860 And so that

00:32:09.340 ability to

00:32:10.160 depersonalize

00:32:11.240 it I think

00:32:12.960 is key.

00:32:14.400 If you're not

00:32:14.780 able to

00:32:15.120 depersonalize

00:32:15.880 it, you

00:32:16.280 won't, if

00:32:17.280 you're not

00:32:17.500 able to

00:32:17.820 think immediately

00:32:18.900 to yourself,

00:32:19.580 and this is

00:32:19.860 something we

00:32:20.260 train people

00:32:21.060 to do in

00:32:21.820 the theory of

00:32:22.600 enchantment,

00:32:23.520 to think to

00:32:24.180 yourself what

00:32:24.920 internal mechanism,

00:32:26.900 what internal

00:32:27.760 emotions are

00:32:28.700 going on within

00:32:29.840 this person

00:32:30.480 that's informing

00:32:31.640 his behavior.

00:32:33.140 And then work

00:32:33.880 from there as

00:32:34.460 opposed to

00:32:34.900 saying to

00:32:35.700 yourself,

00:32:36.580 oh, you

00:32:37.040 know, he

00:32:37.300 called me

00:32:37.700 this, and

00:32:38.280 you know,

00:32:39.580 like, and

00:32:41.400 get a sense

00:32:42.140 of, you

00:32:42.920 know, my

00:32:43.960 ego has

00:32:44.520 been shattered

00:32:45.060 because this

00:32:45.600 person called

00:32:46.180 me this.

00:32:46.560 Like, it has

00:32:46.740 nothing to do

00:32:47.160 with me.

00:32:47.680 It has

00:32:47.840 absolutely

00:32:48.080 nothing to

00:32:48.500 do with

00:32:48.700 me, because

00:32:48.940 I know I'm

00:32:49.760 not that.

00:32:54.260 More with

00:32:54.940 Chloe in a

00:32:55.440 minute, but

00:32:55.820 first, let's

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00:34:32.960 Okay, and

00:34:33.640 now we want

00:34:34.040 to bring to

00:34:34.360 you a feature

00:34:34.900 that we have

00:34:35.420 here on the

00:34:35.760 show called

00:34:36.400 Real Talk.

00:34:37.560 This is one

00:34:38.240 where I just

00:34:38.580 want to tell

00:34:38.900 you about

00:34:39.160 something that

00:34:39.480 happened in

00:34:39.720 my life or

00:34:40.160 something real

00:34:40.680 that's going

00:34:41.100 on that I

00:34:41.560 think is worth

00:34:42.460 sharing.

00:34:43.160 And today I

00:34:44.000 want to tell

00:34:44.440 you about a

00:34:45.460 very special

00:34:46.180 event that I

00:34:47.060 went to last

00:34:48.080 weekend with my

00:34:49.060 pal Janice Dean

00:34:49.940 from Fox News.

00:34:50.800 She's the 0.99

00:34:51.060 meteorologist there.

00:34:52.040 So let me take

00:34:52.760 you back 10

00:34:53.200 years ago when

00:34:53.700 I was at Fox

00:34:54.420 and we had

00:34:56.240 I think it was

00:34:57.480 the death of

00:34:57.940 the Pope and

00:34:58.780 we used to

00:34:59.240 use Father

00:34:59.740 Jonathan Morris

00:35:00.480 a Catholic

00:35:01.020 priest to come

00:35:01.900 on and talk

00:35:02.340 about pretty

00:35:02.800 much anything

00:35:03.240 that broke

00:35:03.760 involving the

00:35:04.800 Catholic Church

00:35:05.400 and I got to

00:35:06.640 know him pretty

00:35:07.520 well.

00:35:07.940 Super sweet guy.

00:35:09.220 We were relatively

00:35:11.220 new to New York

00:35:11.840 City and I

00:35:13.000 didn't have a

00:35:13.560 personal connection

00:35:14.140 to a Catholic

00:35:14.860 priest here yet

00:35:15.660 even though you

00:35:16.260 know I am

00:35:16.520 Catholic just

00:35:17.440 wasn't feeling

00:35:17.880 the bond with

00:35:18.840 my local

00:35:19.520 church.

00:35:20.680 Long story short

00:35:21.160 he became our

00:35:21.780 priest and we

00:35:23.880 wound up having

00:35:24.760 three kids Doug

00:35:25.420 and I he

00:35:25.900 baptized all three

00:35:26.740 of our children.

00:35:28.120 He became a

00:35:28.920 spiritual advisor

00:35:29.660 to me in

00:35:30.140 addition to you

00:35:31.380 know our

00:35:31.660 priest which

00:35:32.120 happens with a

00:35:32.640 lot of priests.

00:35:33.900 Well imagine

00:35:34.260 my surprise a

00:35:35.580 year and a half

00:35:36.200 18 24 months

00:35:38.160 ago when he

00:35:39.260 called me up to

00:35:39.820 tell me he was

00:35:40.660 peace outing from

00:35:41.600 the church.

00:35:42.140 I was like what

00:35:43.620 he left the

00:35:45.480 priesthood.

00:35:46.420 So of course

00:35:47.480 my first reaction

00:35:48.280 by the way he

00:35:48.820 baptized Janice's

00:35:49.720 kids too and so

00:35:50.420 Janice and I

00:35:50.900 were like is it

00:35:51.560 still legit like

00:35:52.500 do we have to

00:35:52.900 have him re-baptize

00:35:54.060 we got to go

00:35:54.500 down that lane

00:35:55.040 again and just

00:35:55.620 be like my

00:35:56.520 kids are never

00:35:56.940 going to sit

00:35:57.300 for it but

00:35:57.820 anyway it

00:35:58.680 turns out that's

00:35:59.260 not that's not

00:35:59.860 necessary they're

00:36:00.560 still good and

00:36:01.680 one of the

00:36:02.680 reasons why he

00:36:03.440 left was he

00:36:04.400 really wanted to

00:36:05.180 get married and

00:36:05.680 have children and

00:36:06.940 you know the

00:36:07.400 Catholic Church is

00:36:08.000 just so like in

00:36:08.800 the dark ages when

00:36:09.520 it comes to this I

00:36:10.440 personally believe

00:36:11.160 they should

00:36:11.500 completely be letting

00:36:12.540 priests get

00:36:13.600 married and have

00:36:14.420 kids it's like it's

00:36:15.700 just so punishing

00:36:16.560 to not allow it

00:36:17.400 whatever I'm not

00:36:18.080 too old school so

00:36:19.260 father Jonathan

00:36:20.500 Morris or FJ as 0.90

00:36:22.400 we all call him

00:36:23.060 although some of

00:36:23.980 the women at Fox

00:36:24.560 called him father

00:36:25.320 what a waste because

00:36:26.060 he was very good

00:36:26.720 looking it's a good

00:36:27.560 looking guy so FJ

00:36:29.080 this past weekend

00:36:31.040 got married he got

00:36:33.300 married to Caitlin who

00:36:34.560 happens to be a TV

00:36:35.460 producer for ABC

00:36:36.620 News and JD and I

00:36:38.500 and a bunch of the

00:36:39.000 folks from Fox News

00:36:39.920 went and it was

00:36:42.160 beautiful it was so

00:36:44.140 fun first of all to

00:36:44.960 see him up there on

00:36:45.540 the altar on the

00:36:46.220 other side all I

00:36:47.320 could think was like

00:36:48.020 is he armchair

00:36:48.940 quarterbacking the

00:36:49.880 homily and the

00:36:50.900 vows and is he

00:36:52.460 like judging how

00:36:53.980 this guy's doing it

00:36:54.880 versus how he would

00:36:55.620 have done it but

00:36:56.280 it's a it's kind of

00:36:57.280 a cool thing to see

00:36:58.240 your priest up there

00:36:59.220 in a tux next to a

00:37:01.200 woman in a white 0.89

00:37:01.860 dress holding hands

00:37:02.960 taking their marital

00:37:04.560 vows in the end it's

00:37:06.200 about love and I

00:37:06.900 think Cardinal Dolan

00:37:07.960 let them have it at

00:37:08.640 St. Patrick's

00:37:09.220 Cathedral which you

00:37:10.260 know clearly he has

00:37:10.900 the blessing of the

00:37:11.520 church which was a

00:37:12.520 beautiful sight and

00:37:13.600 when I saw them at

00:37:15.240 the reception those

00:37:16.300 of you who've been

00:37:16.720 following me for years

00:37:17.480 will know that I have

00:37:18.320 a tendency to say the

00:37:19.080 wrong thing if they're

00:37:20.240 if given too much time

00:37:21.180 and silence I just

00:37:23.000 feel the need to fill

00:37:23.820 the silence in a way

00:37:24.700 that always comes back

00:37:25.740 to bite me what I

00:37:26.800 said to them when I

00:37:27.580 saw them at the

00:37:28.060 reception because you

00:37:29.300 never know what to

00:37:29.840 say to somebody right

00:37:30.640 it's like what do you

00:37:31.160 say you get like one

00:37:32.480 minute with a bride and 0.89

00:37:33.260 groom and yeah like

00:37:34.780 it's beautiful and you

00:37:35.780 look beautiful and I

00:37:36.860 don't know I always feel

00:37:37.780 the need to say

00:37:38.260 something more which is a

00:37:39.680 bad instinct bad and

00:37:41.560 what I said was

00:37:43.220 something like I can't

00:37:44.400 wait to hear about the

00:37:45.120 honeymoon and I I can't

00:37:46.620 wait to re-watch the

00:37:47.740 thorn birds this week

00:37:48.780 which is like yeah if

00:37:52.840 you grew up in the 70s

00:37:53.660 or 80s you know about

00:37:54.320 the thorn birds about

00:37:55.220 having an affair with a

00:37:56.380 priest which is not

00:37:57.540 what happened in this

00:37:58.220 case in any event I

00:37:59.380 thought you might be

00:38:00.160 interested in hearing my

00:38:01.180 story about now we're

00:38:02.580 gonna have to call him

00:38:03.220 formerly FJ but

00:38:04.780 formerly father

00:38:05.480 Jonathan and how you

00:38:07.140 know like all things in

00:38:08.080 this life love finds a

00:38:10.100 way and now back to

00:38:11.880 Chloe when you're

00:38:14.340 trying to help people

00:38:15.320 love themselves yeah

00:38:18.160 is that possible is it

00:38:19.740 like has that ship

00:38:21.240 already sailed by the

00:38:22.140 time they get to you

00:38:22.960 you know if they

00:38:23.580 haven't learned it in

00:38:24.380 childhood and through

00:38:25.820 their formative

00:38:26.480 experiences no I don't

00:38:28.380 think so I actually

00:38:29.080 think a lot of us

00:38:29.980 adults are walking 0.97

00:38:31.620 around just actually

00:38:33.740 just like young people 0.99

00:38:35.300 internally or like

00:38:37.520 children but like in

00:38:38.760 adult size so I don't

00:38:41.760 think I don't think

00:38:42.580 it's impossible listen

00:38:43.380 I actually think that

00:38:44.240 learning to love

00:38:44.780 yourself takes a

00:38:45.600 lifetime it doesn't

00:38:46.700 start and stop with

00:38:48.280 theory of enchantment

00:38:49.460 or with your

00:38:51.160 upbringing it takes a

00:38:52.980 lifetime because we

00:38:55.060 are I think that the

00:38:56.480 human being is the

00:38:57.180 most sophisticated being

00:38:58.380 on planet earth and we

00:39:00.640 are you know both in

00:39:03.080 my opinion dust and

00:39:04.020 ashes but made in the

00:39:05.540 the image of the

00:39:06.840 divine and so you

00:39:08.280 know we deal with the

00:39:09.360 human condition we

00:39:10.200 have to deal with

00:39:10.840 things like confronting

00:39:11.900 our mortality insecurity

00:39:13.940 parental baggage

00:39:15.240 vulnerability these are

00:39:17.020 all things we have to

00:39:17.940 deal with as human

00:39:19.260 beings and so learning

00:39:20.660 to love yourself amidst

00:39:22.300 those things is a

00:39:24.460 lifetime practice so I

00:39:26.300 definitely think it's

00:39:27.040 possible what is it

00:39:28.840 about is it about

00:39:29.860 forgiving your own

00:39:32.200 flaws your your quote

00:39:34.060 unquote weaknesses like

00:39:35.680 what what does that

00:39:36.980 daily practice look

00:39:37.900 like because I'm just

00:39:38.360 gonna guess it's not

00:39:39.240 like looking in the

00:39:40.340 mirror with you're

00:39:41.760 good enough you're

00:39:42.800 smart enough but we

00:39:44.900 all have self-doubt we

00:39:45.940 all have insecurity we

00:39:46.880 all have things about

00:39:47.460 ourselves we wish

00:39:48.180 weren't so and I

00:39:50.000 think that's what leads

00:39:50.860 to if not self-hatred

00:39:52.120 then at least bouts of

00:39:53.680 self self-loathing which

00:39:55.180 you accurately point out

00:39:56.780 is what leads to one

00:39:57.840 acting out when one

00:39:58.860 acts hatefully it tends

00:40:01.680 to originate with hate

00:40:03.120 or or loathing for

00:40:04.280 one's self so what

00:40:05.460 does it look like

00:40:06.120 correct person and

00:40:07.480 what is the day-to-day

00:40:08.500 process of eliminating

00:40:10.460 it or at least

00:40:11.320 controlling it yeah so

00:40:13.940 I mean we teach a

00:40:14.640 couple things in theory

00:40:16.040 of enchantment we

00:40:16.820 teach first and

00:40:17.760 foremost folks need to

00:40:20.220 accept the fact that

00:40:21.380 imperfection is a part

00:40:22.940 of life there's no

00:40:23.580 such thing as 0.74

00:40:24.100 perfection and that's

00:40:26.300 that's one of the

00:40:27.120 hard things I think

00:40:28.060 for people to really

00:40:29.160 try to practice and

00:40:30.100 internalize the fact

00:40:32.000 that like we are and

00:40:33.720 we will always be

00:40:34.540 imperfect just because

00:40:36.020 that is the nature of

00:40:37.160 life another issue is

00:40:39.660 like practicing

00:40:40.720 vulnerability because

00:40:41.960 we we teach Brene

00:40:44.260 Brown's TED talk on

00:40:45.340 the power of

00:40:45.920 vulnerability when she

00:40:46.880 talks about love it

00:40:47.820 that's so worth

00:40:48.880 everyone's time it's

00:40:49.940 on yeah everyone

00:40:50.560 should check that

00:40:51.140 out it's a great TED

00:40:52.420 talk but she you know 1.00

00:40:53.580 she talks about how

00:40:54.140 vulnerability is the

00:40:55.440 birthplace of you know

00:40:57.380 feeling sad and feeling

00:40:58.860 down but it's also the

00:40:59.720 birthplace of joy it's

00:41:01.180 also the birthplace of

00:41:02.760 you know feeling larger

00:41:04.800 than life and so if

00:41:06.180 you numb vulnerability

00:41:07.280 you numb your you numb 0.77

00:41:09.320 joy and so it's hard to

00:41:11.040 practice vulnerability but

00:41:12.440 we teach people to do

00:41:13.380 that because otherwise

00:41:15.480 they will remain like

00:41:16.780 paralyzed by fear and

00:41:18.480 fear is another issue

00:41:19.680 that we teach people to

00:41:21.400 sort of practice getting

00:41:23.000 over practice doing

00:41:24.860 things that they that

00:41:26.020 they fear they would not

00:41:27.160 be good at or or good

00:41:29.220 enough or worthy

00:41:29.900 enough to to approach

00:41:31.400 and and I failed to

00:41:33.240 mention this earlier but

00:41:33.920 we use a lot of pop

00:41:34.660 culture to teach a lot

00:41:35.780 of these things so that

00:41:36.460 it's memorable and

00:41:37.460 repeatable and people

00:41:39.440 can recall to memory in

00:41:41.700 difficult times this is

00:41:43.800 exactly the opposite of

00:41:45.320 cancel culture exactly

00:41:46.660 the opposite right it is

00:41:48.480 which is which causes

00:41:49.780 fear intentionally which

00:41:51.900 makes no room for

00:41:53.440 humanity and yeah human

00:41:55.440 failings and error which

00:41:56.880 sizes up of an entire

00:41:58.720 person based on one

00:41:59.820 incident or you know

00:42:00.940 one mistaken fall down

00:42:03.620 right like I the thing I

00:42:06.420 hate most about cancel

00:42:07.720 culture is how it reduces

00:42:10.060 a human being to one bad

00:42:12.960 moment and tries to

00:42:14.560 pretend that that that

00:42:16.260 person is all about that

00:42:17.540 moment and that this is

00:42:18.620 being kind this is the

00:42:19.600 charitable version where

00:42:20.460 the person actually did do

00:42:21.460 something bad you know

00:42:22.700 nine times out of ten they

00:42:23.680 did something totally

00:42:24.340 innocuous that is only bad

00:42:25.560 in the eyes of sort of

00:42:26.640 these far left woke

00:42:27.480 scolds but it's that's

00:42:30.300 what I hate about it

00:42:31.020 because then it doesn't

00:42:33.040 lead to expansion or

00:42:34.260 willingness to be

00:42:34.940 vulnerable it leads to

00:42:36.540 contraction and hard

00:42:39.220 shells and the desire to

00:42:42.060 fight right so cancel

00:42:44.260 culture is also byproduct of

00:42:47.680 our hyper consumerist

00:42:49.260 society even the language of

00:42:50.760 cancel culture is very

00:42:51.700 transactional right so I

00:42:53.780 like canceling a

00:42:54.420 subscription it's like

00:42:55.320 canceling a human being

00:42:56.260 which is absurd so we've

00:42:59.260 been conditioned to act in

00:43:00.780 these ways for a very long

00:43:01.820 time so we have to train

00:43:02.940 ourselves it's a practice to

00:43:04.360 think differently again to

00:43:05.940 think about things like

00:43:07.480 restorative justice which

00:43:08.800 would help it's interesting

00:43:11.860 because some people on the

00:43:13.360 woke left claim to be pro

00:43:16.580 criminal justice reform right

00:43:18.880 but then they practice a

00:43:20.140 culture of cancel culture which

00:43:22.120 is antithetical to criminal

00:43:23.500 justice reform you know I

00:43:24.820 think about this in theory and

00:43:26.020 I think I agree I agree with

00:43:27.140 all of it all of it but then

00:43:28.800 if you say okay now apply that

00:43:31.360 to Harvey Weinstein I get

00:43:33.160 stuck I get stuck it's and it's

00:43:35.960 not that I can't understand that

00:43:37.420 he may have been a kind father in

00:43:40.360 some ways or may have in his own

00:43:42.900 weird way loved his wife and may

00:43:45.960 have you know donated millions of

00:43:47.120 dollars to good causes and so on

00:43:48.340 so it's not that I'm saying the

00:43:49.720 entire man is bad but I don't

00:43:53.020 feel restorative when I look at

00:43:54.380 him you know it's like I even I

00:43:57.400 mean I spent some time in the

00:43:58.920 south side of Chicago interviewing a

00:44:00.860 bunch of moms there whose whose 1.00

00:44:02.400 kids had been sent to prison many of

00:44:05.740 them had been shot their kids had

00:44:07.700 done had done the shooting as well

00:44:09.040 and they're they're big on

00:44:10.660 restorative justice and they talk

00:44:11.740 about trying to raise their boys in

00:44:12.900 this impossible environment where

00:44:14.320 crime is everywhere and it's very

00:44:15.940 tough to pull them out of it and get

00:44:18.080 them to the age of majority without 0.50

00:44:19.320 having had any real exposure to

00:44:21.620 criminality and danger and life

00:44:23.360 life-threatening danger so I get it

00:44:25.120 in that case I actually get it more

00:44:26.800 than I get it in somebody like

00:44:27.800 Harvey who spent a lifetime abusing

00:44:29.760 people so what are your thoughts on

00:44:31.960 somebody like that and how this whole

00:44:33.760 theory would apply to someone like

00:44:35.540 that so it's a great question I mean

00:44:38.040 restorative justice is not about a

00:44:40.940 lack of accountability right and

00:44:42.500 that's sort of a misnomer around

00:44:44.680 restorative justice so it's definitely

00:44:46.560 about accountability but restorative

00:44:49.200 justice is also about restoring the

00:44:50.740 victim and oftentimes in the punitive

00:44:55.320 system what happens is the state or

00:44:58.340 whatever institution is sort of has a

00:45:01.220 jurisdiction basically passes down a

00:45:05.460 a the conviction or the the punishment

00:45:08.400 for the crime and the sentence is served

00:45:10.920 and but the victim is not necessarily

00:45:12.940 centered no one comes to the victim and

00:45:15.240 asks them you know what do you need in

00:45:17.240 this moment so restorative justice is

00:45:19.400 actually about really restoring seeking

00:45:21.580 the restoration for the victim and and

00:45:24.160 that oftentimes in turn actually

00:45:26.720 restores the soul so to speak of the

00:45:29.400 offender and in the case of in the case

00:45:33.300 of Harvey Weinstein I mean in a in a more I

00:45:36.420 guess in a more restorative justice

00:45:38.820 environment it isn't like he wouldn't serve

00:45:41.140 time it isn't like he wouldn't be held

00:45:43.540 accountable for his actions but there

00:45:45.540 would be a conversation about how he

00:45:48.240 became what he what he became and how

00:45:51.680 why he did what he did and all these

00:45:54.120 motivating factors for him and I feel

00:45:56.780 like there would there would be space to

00:45:58.440 have that conversation and if you if you

00:46:01.760 don't I feel like if you don't create the

00:46:03.560 space to have that conversation then as a

00:46:05.660 society we are less equipped to be able

00:46:08.840 to ask ourselves well how do we create

00:46:10.260 conditions in our society so there's not

00:46:12.360 another Harvey Weinstein right so like

00:46:14.340 that that added piece is I think would

00:46:18.000 would make justice more sustainable in the

00:46:20.580 long run we had among the women the moms 1.00

00:46:24.200 they're in like a prayer group circle and

00:46:27.680 one mom her son had been killed by another 0.92

00:46:33.240 of the mom's sons who was in jail serving

00:46:36.480 time for the murder and they were friends

00:46:39.340 and they loved each other and the the

00:46:42.720 mother of the son who had been killed had

00:46:44.320 completely forgiven the other mom's son and

00:46:48.480 they were talking about that as restorative

00:46:50.400 justice you know like that we making that

00:46:52.460 kind of a connection only served the victim

00:46:55.500 and the perpetrator right well you know it

00:46:57.940 wasn't in no way was it painful it was to the

00:47:00.460 contrary as hard as it may be and I feel

00:47:02.360 like you can get past that you can get

00:47:04.300 past anything but can I talk to you a bit

00:47:06.380 about faith because they were women of

00:47:08.280 faith and you know their prayer group was

00:47:10.960 being run by this heroic nun who we did a

00:47:12.940 story on a couple years ago but I know

00:47:16.040 faith has played a role in your own life

00:47:17.720 it's played a role in my life it's it's

00:47:20.020 for me made me a very forgiving person I I

00:47:24.200 feel like it might be easier to go to

00:47:26.100 forgiveness if you have a faith background

00:47:28.700 or just a if you have God in your life

00:47:32.360 yeah I think that's that's probably true I

00:47:36.220 mean I will say that I think that the

00:47:37.920 society that we live in has been shaped by

00:47:41.600 a Judeo-Christian ethic and so even if you 0.87

00:47:44.220 consider yourself a secular person the

00:47:47.460 morality of the tradition still seeps into

00:47:50.620 the culture you know even if you don't

00:47:52.980 personally identify as someone who is a

00:47:57.560 religious person but I definitely agree

00:47:59.580 with you that if you've been raised

00:48:01.280 religious I was certainly raised religious

00:48:03.560 and I think probably your spiritual

00:48:05.700 sensibility and I'm generalizing here but

00:48:07.980 your spiritual sensibility is more acutely

00:48:10.720 developed and so you would be more likely

00:48:13.220 to to see the world through the paradigm of

00:48:16.460 forgiveness and mercy but I do think that

00:48:19.020 because that the culture we're seeped in

00:48:21.740 that culture I do think you could still

00:48:23.300 teach it even if you're in a secular

00:48:25.220 environment and there's not there's also

00:48:28.020 not that vacuum that you need to fill

00:48:29.940 with the quote religion of wokeness or you

00:48:32.920 know or even politics some people treat

00:48:35.080 politics like it's a religion all right

00:48:36.520 can I ask you a couple personal questions

00:48:37.880 because I don't really know you you sound

00:48:40.080 incredibly well read philosophical smart

00:48:42.920 like what does Chloe Valdry do for fun I

00:48:47.240 like you're so erudite I can't picture you

00:48:49.860 at a bar slinging drinks like hanging out like

00:48:52.000 what do you do for fun tell me about you yeah

00:48:55.200 I'd like to dance a lot actually prior to

00:48:59.640 COVID I would go to a wonderful club in

00:49:03.840 Williamsburg in Brooklyn called Bembe and I

00:49:05.620 would go there every week to dance for like

00:49:07.540 hours and hours like by myself so I love

00:49:10.320 to dance I dance is like a spiritual practice

00:49:12.740 for me I love to produce produce music I love

00:49:16.080 to mix music both like on the vocal side and

00:49:18.740 also on like the DJ side so that's how I

00:49:21.880 that's like my I guess my artistic outlet for

00:49:25.140 myself now do you what what is your love

00:49:27.640 life look like is that fulfilling are you

00:49:30.900 dating like I just feel like you have to be

00:49:32.580 with somebody really smart you can't be with

00:49:34.960 a moron I haven't found him yet so you let

00:49:37.880 me know if you find him because I haven't

00:49:40.200 found him yet but um so I am definitely

00:49:43.360 single but and I agree with you that I have

00:49:45.420 to be with someone who can challenge me but

00:49:47.860 also uh be fulfilling as well um and be be a

00:49:51.960 real supporter and partner I haven't I haven't

00:49:54.080 found him yet but um I'm enjoying single life in

00:49:58.540 the meantime and just trying to spread theory of

00:50:01.520 enchantment as far and wide as possible I I think

00:50:04.820 you're gonna one day introduce one very special

00:50:07.380 man to it and he's gonna be feeling exactly that when

00:50:10.200 he meets and gets to know you Chloe thank you so

00:50:12.480 much thank you for putting so much goodness out to

00:50:14.300 the world and for trying to tackle such a difficult

00:50:16.820 subject with such goodness it's wonderful to meet

00:50:19.720 you thank you Megan good to meet you too all the

00:50:22.000 best

00:50:22.220 our thanks to Chloe Valdary so much appreciate her

00:50:28.420 coming on later this week stay tuned because we're

00:50:30.560 gonna have Piers Morgan I have taken so much crap from

00:50:34.680 my girlfriends for saying that I want to be just

00:50:36.820 like Piers Morgan when I grow up it's not because I

00:50:39.680 agree with all of his opinions it's because he says

00:50:42.540 whatever the hell he pleases he says whatever he wants

00:50:47.300 to say and he is unapologetic for it and I love just his

00:50:51.960 freedom like he doesn't he has zero need to be liked which

00:50:56.660 explains his approval ratings no I don't like kidding I

00:50:59.820 love the guy I just think he's really brave and I'm not

00:51:03.060 the biggest fan of Meghan and Harry and I I will not miss

00:51:06.300 one of his columns on them I'm like they're like stinking

00:51:09.380 holier than thou attitude they're gonna lecture everybody

00:51:12.200 on their privilege while they're sitting in their 20

00:51:14.360 million dollar mansion in California all right I digress we're

00:51:16.760 gonna get into all of it with Piers when he joins me later

00:51:19.920 this week but first today's episode was brought to you in

00:51:22.720 part by Scoremaster see how many points Scoremaster can

00:51:25.840 add to your credit score visit scoremaster.com slash mk now it

00:51:30.640 really is a service that can essentially pay for itself all

00:51:33.580 right we'll see you later this week thanks for listening to

00:51:35.900 the Megan Kelly show no BS no agenda and no fear the Megan Kelly

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The Megyn Kelly Show - October 26, 2020

Chloé Valdary on Redemption, Race, and Combating The Outrage Mob ｜ Ep. 15

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