The Megyn Kelly Show - Climate Truth： Climate Change Alarmism and Reality, with Michael Shellenberger and Benji Backer

00:00:00.000 When I found out my friend got a great deal

00:00:02.160 on a wool coat from Winners,

00:00:03.760 I started wondering,

00:00:05.440 is every fabulous item I see from Winners?

00:00:08.560 Like that woman over there with the designer jeans.

00:00:11.260 Are those from Winners?

00:00:12.780 Ooh, or those beautiful gold earrings.

00:00:15.260 Did she pay full price?

00:00:16.600 Or that leather tote?

00:00:17.600 Or that cashmere sweater?

00:00:18.500 Or those knee-high boots?

00:00:20.300 That dress?

00:00:21.080 That jacket?

00:00:21.740 Those shoes?

00:00:22.780 Is anyone paying full price for anything?

00:00:25.800 Stop wondering.

00:00:27.000 Start winning.

00:00:27.940 Winners.

00:00:28.520 Find fabulous for less.

00:00:30.620 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:32.520 Your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:41.860 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:00:43.600 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:44.880 Today on the program, we are getting into climate change,

00:00:49.840 global warming, and how scared do you need to be?

00:00:54.060 We've got an honest broker on the program today

00:00:56.240 who wrote the book, Apocalypse Never,

00:00:58.840 Why Environmental Alarmism Hurts Us All.

00:01:02.880 His name is Michael Schellenberger,

00:01:04.740 and he is incredibly thoughtful, smart,

00:01:07.140 and thankfully for us, easy to understand.

00:01:10.700 He took some dense subject matter

00:01:12.440 and translated it in a way that we all,

00:01:15.300 my entire team and I,

00:01:16.800 felt was very user-friendly.

00:01:18.520 We're all kind of riding high right now

00:01:20.380 because he took a subject matter

00:01:22.080 we all felt a little intimidated by.

00:01:23.580 I don't know if you're in that category with me,

00:01:26.000 and made it like understandable.

00:01:28.280 So we learned a lot,

00:01:29.420 and you're about to learn a lot

00:01:30.220 if you stay tuned and listen to Michael.

00:01:32.860 And we've got a blast from the MK past,

00:01:35.740 Benji Backer,

00:01:37.340 who is a young whippersnapper.

00:01:39.480 He's a guy who's a conservative conservationist.

00:01:42.900 So he's a Republican who's concerned

00:01:44.900 about the environment and climate change

00:01:46.860 and doesn't want to be shamed out of that position

00:01:49.680 by people like AOC,

00:01:51.520 who seizes the mantle on this,

00:01:52.820 seizes the mantle on something like this,

00:01:54.260 and throws out a bunch of insane ideas,

00:01:56.720 making people who are being more rational

00:01:58.680 about this issue feel like,

00:02:00.060 I don't want anything to do with her.

00:02:01.920 I don't want to be associated

00:02:02.760 with any of her weird policies.

00:02:04.800 But in any event,

00:02:05.360 this is not an issue that the right should cede

00:02:07.860 to the far left people like her.

00:02:10.340 So we're going to get into all of it.

00:02:11.780 I think you're going to find it illuminating

00:02:13.060 for those of you who are already very well-versed

00:02:15.440 in climate change and fossil fuels.

00:02:18.040 I apologize to you for the elementary approach,

00:02:20.320 but I wanted to learn

00:02:22.160 and I wanted to make this digestible for all.

00:02:25.260 And I think you're going to like it.

00:02:26.320 So to our guests in one minute,

00:02:28.280 but first this.

00:02:34.780 Michael, how are you?

00:02:36.240 Good. Nice to meet you.

00:02:37.680 It's a pleasure.

00:02:38.780 I'm really looking forward to this conversation.

00:02:40.640 I feel like I have a lot to learn

00:02:42.560 and you seem like the guy to teach me.

00:02:44.660 Well, you're very sweet.

00:02:45.980 I'm a huge fan of yours.

00:02:47.480 I've always respected your journalism

00:02:48.880 and I was really delighted to get the invitation.

00:02:52.060 Oh, thank you.

00:02:53.340 Well, I was surprised, actually.

00:02:55.100 I've been watching some of your TED Talks

00:02:57.080 and some of your TV hits.

00:02:58.720 I actually did not know that you used to be,

00:03:02.360 you're still a nature lover,

00:03:03.740 but you used to be a nature-loving Greenpeace activist

00:03:06.120 who wanted renewables to fuel the world.

00:03:08.940 I was.

00:03:09.680 I was anti-nuclear from a young age.

00:03:11.880 I advocated for renewables for about 10 years,

00:03:15.700 including to then-presidential candidate

00:03:19.220 Barack Obama's campaign team.

00:03:22.280 And he did a big investment in renewables in 2009.

00:03:25.460 And it was really that experience

00:03:27.360 of confronting the problems that renewables create

00:03:32.380 that led me to rethink my position on nuclear.

00:03:36.200 That's so evolved.

00:03:37.040 It's so evolved of you to get new information

00:03:39.100 and change your position.

00:03:40.380 Too few of us do that.

00:03:42.520 And I, forgive me,

00:03:43.540 but I'm going to keep asking you to define terms

00:03:45.700 because I don't want to assume anybody knows anything

00:03:49.280 because I will say I came to this a little uninformed

00:03:52.340 and I'm just going to, for the benefit of my audience,

00:03:55.200 assume some of them are where I have been.

00:03:57.840 So renewables means what?

00:03:59.160 So renewables refers to what are,

00:04:03.060 is basically a set of sources of energy,

00:04:06.120 wood, water, wind, solar, geothermal, and tidal.

00:04:11.060 The vast majority of that,

00:04:13.180 what people think of today is solar panels

00:04:15.260 and these large industrial wind turbines.

00:04:19.800 And so, yeah, I mean, they,

00:04:22.040 it's basically renewables were how humans,

00:04:25.040 the main source of energy for humans

00:04:26.680 for most of our recorded history.

00:04:28.420 So it was really in the late 1700s

00:04:32.280 and the 1800s where we moved away from renewables

00:04:35.340 and towards fossil fuels.

00:04:36.980 And everybody agrees that it was that transition

00:04:39.580 that first allowed the industrial revolution to occur.

00:04:43.440 We couldn't, like,

00:04:44.400 you couldn't get the industrial revolution

00:04:46.220 with wood and water wheels.

00:04:48.440 It just wasn't possible physically

00:04:50.000 to produce enough energy.

00:04:52.460 And so there's this idea

00:04:53.820 that we're going to transition back to renewables,

00:04:56.080 but it's one that really very few

00:05:00.080 serious energy scholars believe,

00:05:03.680 in part because we just have,

00:05:06.000 there's so many people

00:05:06.940 and we have such a high energy civilization,

00:05:08.860 we use so much energy

00:05:10.420 that the dilute nature of renewables,

00:05:14.420 the fact they don't produce very much energy

00:05:16.100 for the amount of land that they require

00:05:18.060 and the amount of workers that are required

00:05:19.620 and capital,

00:05:20.500 just raises a whole bunch of questions

00:05:23.360 about whether going back to them

00:05:25.220 is even possible.

00:05:26.980 It's funny when you think about

00:05:28.140 somebody like AOC's Green New Deal

00:05:30.740 where we're going to have

00:05:31.860 every single building,

00:05:33.420 every single house in the whole world

00:05:35.340 redone, gutted and redone

00:05:37.160 to be more energy friendly

00:05:39.040 and depend on renewables.

00:05:40.860 And everyone's going to have a car

00:05:42.100 that plugs in

00:05:43.420 and all of that is going to be powered

00:05:45.360 by the water wheel.

00:05:46.380 I'm being extreme,

00:05:49.700 but to your point,

00:05:50.400 how are we going to get

00:05:52.180 the wind turbines to power

00:05:53.600 all of the things in that wish list?

00:05:56.040 All right, I'll get to that one second.

00:05:57.420 I want to take you through it

00:05:58.380 in a way I think will be

00:05:59.280 easy to digest for the audience.

00:06:01.460 So let me start with this.

00:06:02.640 Let's start with a big overall question.

00:06:05.140 We do, in the world,

00:06:07.120 have a global warming problem.

00:06:09.060 Yes or no?

00:06:10.200 Yeah, we do.

00:06:12.000 And can you describe it?

00:06:14.040 Yeah, I mean,

00:06:14.440 the easiest way I'd say

00:06:15.280 is climate change is real.

00:06:17.140 It's an environmental problem.

00:06:19.120 I don't think it's our most

00:06:20.600 serious environmental problem.

00:06:22.920 I think people that look

00:06:24.140 at other environmental problems

00:06:25.460 beyond climate change

00:06:26.740 agree with that.

00:06:28.640 It's a byproduct

00:06:29.900 of the use of fossil fuels

00:06:31.900 and to a lesser extent

00:06:32.920 land use changes

00:06:33.780 over the last couple hundred years.

00:06:36.540 But, you know,

00:06:37.260 most of the trends

00:06:38.320 are going in the right direction.

00:06:40.140 Carbon emissions peaked

00:06:41.660 in most of European,

00:06:43.620 most big European countries

00:06:44.780 in the mid-70s.

00:06:45.840 They peaked in the United States

00:06:46.760 about 15 years ago.

00:06:48.620 In fact, the United States

00:06:49.300 has reduced its carbon emissions

00:06:50.640 more than any other country

00:06:51.860 in world history

00:06:52.920 over the last 20 years.

00:06:54.860 We're absolutely on track

00:06:56.500 to meet the promises

00:06:57.660 that we made

00:06:58.260 at Paris and Copenhagen

00:07:00.280 climate talks

00:07:01.100 by the United Nations.

00:07:02.220 And on most other things,

00:07:05.060 you know, deaths

00:07:05.600 from natural disasters,

00:07:07.300 food production,

00:07:09.020 hardly anybody dies anymore

00:07:10.840 of natural disasters

00:07:11.840 in the United States.

00:07:12.620 It was 411 people in 2019.

00:07:15.960 That's like nothing

00:07:16.840 when you think of car accidents

00:07:18.240 killing over 50,000,

00:07:19.540 drug overdoses

00:07:20.220 killing over 80,000.

00:07:22.760 We produce more food

00:07:24.120 than we've ever produced.

00:07:25.580 Like, we worry,

00:07:27.020 like, we have a problem

00:07:27.740 with so much food.

00:07:28.540 In most parts of the world,

00:07:29.280 we have too much food.

00:07:30.140 We produce 25% more food.

00:07:32.640 And there's no scenario,

00:07:34.160 no scientific scenario

00:07:35.320 in any of the IPCC

00:07:37.540 and our Governmental Panel

00:07:38.360 on Climate Change reports

00:07:40.240 or other peer-reviewed

00:07:41.400 scientific literature

00:07:41.980 that suggests that those trends

00:07:43.560 will reverse themselves

00:07:44.720 and that somehow

00:07:46.040 something will happen

00:07:47.860 that will result in

00:07:49.240 the scarcity

00:07:50.320 or shortages of food

00:07:51.620 or of some big increase

00:07:54.100 of natural disaster deaths.

00:07:56.140 So it's a problem.

00:07:57.080 You worry about some of the,

00:07:58.580 yeah, I mean,

00:07:59.020 all else being equal,

00:07:59.740 you don't want to change

00:08:00.500 the temperature

00:08:01.060 because we have

00:08:02.820 our societies,

00:08:04.540 our farming,

00:08:05.540 even the natural environments

00:08:06.860 that we've protected

00:08:07.740 are all kind of set up

00:08:09.300 around a particular

00:08:09.960 set of temperatures,

00:08:10.700 but not all else is equal.

00:08:12.420 And climate change

00:08:13.460 is a byproduct

00:08:14.100 of all this human flourishing

00:08:16.040 and prosperity we've had.

00:08:17.420 And we should manage it

00:08:18.740 like we do other problems,

00:08:19.900 but we shouldn't think of it

00:08:21.180 as the end of the world.

00:08:22.820 Right.

00:08:22.920 And you have all these

00:08:23.720 catastrophic histrionics

00:08:25.640 around it.

00:08:26.620 A couple of small questions.

00:08:27.700 Are the terms

00:08:28.880 climate change

00:08:29.660 and global warming

00:08:30.820 interchangeable?

00:08:32.500 Yes, they are.

00:08:34.080 They should be.

00:08:34.660 Anybody trying to suggest

00:08:35.640 they mean two separate things

00:08:37.240 is being misleading.

00:08:39.320 Okay.

00:08:39.760 And the term

00:08:40.740 carbon emissions,

00:08:41.960 they come from fossil fuels.

00:08:43.960 Can you define

00:08:44.540 both of those terms?

00:08:46.060 Yeah, sure.

00:08:47.360 So we moved,

00:08:48.620 you know,

00:08:48.800 as I mentioned,

00:08:49.140 we moved from renewables

00:08:49.900 to fossil fuels

00:08:50.700 with the Industrial Revolution.

00:08:51.780 So we stopped using wood

00:08:53.020 and we started using more coal.

00:08:55.380 So coal is a fossil fuel.

00:08:57.500 There is,

00:08:58.760 probably not relevant

00:09:00.100 to your listeners,

00:09:00.940 but there is some disagreement

00:09:02.160 about where oil and gas

00:09:03.460 come from.

00:09:04.260 The Russians are convinced

00:09:05.300 that it's actually produced

00:09:06.400 at the core of the earth.

00:09:08.460 Most Western scientists

00:09:09.600 think that it's

00:09:11.220 produced by

00:09:12.420 decaying fossil plant matter.

00:09:16.280 You know,

00:09:17.240 so there's sort of

00:09:18.540 disagreements about what it is,

00:09:19.500 but basically fossil fuels

00:09:20.880 refers to coal

00:09:21.700 as well as to

00:09:22.820 petrochemicals,

00:09:24.920 which is natural gas,

00:09:26.160 petroleum,

00:09:27.200 and all of those byproducts.

00:09:29.100 And then,

00:09:29.740 I'm sorry,

00:09:30.020 when you burn them,

00:09:31.060 they produce carbon emissions.

00:09:32.300 They produce

00:09:32.760 carbon dioxide

00:09:34.100 as one of the many pollutants

00:09:37.480 produced by fossil fuels

00:09:38.800 and the only one

00:09:39.580 that it's not easy

00:09:40.580 to kind of

00:09:41.460 invent some sort of

00:09:43.060 a scrubber

00:09:43.760 or some sort of filter

00:09:44.860 to prevent

00:09:45.700 the carbon dioxide

00:09:47.060 from going into the atmosphere.

00:09:48.180 Is the sole problem

00:09:49.920 with those emissions,

00:09:51.200 those carbon emissions

00:09:52.020 going into the atmosphere,

00:09:53.660 the erosion of the ozone layer?

00:09:56.160 Those are two separate issues.

00:09:58.540 There are greenhouse,

00:09:59.780 there are,

00:10:00.340 so there's a set of gases

00:10:01.420 that cause climate change.

00:10:03.620 We worry more about carbon

00:10:05.320 because carbon dioxide

00:10:06.300 because it stays in the atmosphere

00:10:07.380 for hundreds of years

00:10:08.460 as opposed to

00:10:09.280 other ones like methane,

00:10:11.440 which comes from

00:10:12.400 cows.

00:10:13.740 It's natural gas.

00:10:14.600 It's also just the natural gas

00:10:15.740 that we use for cooking

00:10:16.560 and heating

00:10:17.040 when that goes into

00:10:18.120 the atmosphere,

00:10:18.740 uncombusted

00:10:19.300 is also a potent greenhouse gas.

00:10:22.820 But,

00:10:23.120 and some of those gases

00:10:25.200 are also,

00:10:27.500 they also thin

00:10:28.680 the ozone layer.

00:10:31.400 They should never have said,

00:10:32.720 oh,

00:10:33.040 it's a thinning

00:10:34.160 that we worry about.

00:10:35.580 And so some of those gases

00:10:36.560 do that,

00:10:37.120 but those are

00:10:37.660 easy to manage gases

00:10:40.220 because

00:10:40.760 we don't really need them.

00:10:42.780 There's easy substitutes

00:10:43.780 for them.

00:10:44.760 We know they're used

00:10:45.460 for industrial processes

00:10:46.560 and also as refrigerants.

00:10:48.480 We used to use them

00:10:49.620 in,

00:10:50.180 you know,

00:10:50.960 various consumer products,

00:10:52.040 but they were pretty easy

00:10:52.940 to phase out.

00:10:53.820 So the ozone,

00:10:55.480 the ozone is,

00:10:56.380 it's not better,

00:10:57.700 but it's getting better

00:10:58.600 and it will get better.

00:10:59.600 And that's why we don't hear

00:11:00.720 as much about it anymore.

00:11:02.120 And climate change,

00:11:03.200 it's one that's just

00:11:04.160 a long-term thing

00:11:05.420 we're always going to have.

00:11:06.760 We're going to have

00:11:07.260 for hundreds of years.

00:11:09.160 And so the main event

00:11:10.480 with carbon dioxide emissions

00:11:13.420 is just to reduce

00:11:14.380 the amount of them

00:11:15.040 that we produce.

00:11:15.820 And that means,

00:11:16.440 you know,

00:11:16.780 switching from coal

00:11:17.680 to natural gas

00:11:18.580 and then I think

00:11:19.400 eventually towards nuclear.

00:11:22.140 So help me understand that

00:11:23.620 because I thought

00:11:24.720 the problem was,

00:11:25.640 and I'm going to show

00:11:26.160 my ignorance,

00:11:26.700 but I thought the problem

00:11:27.320 was all these emissions

00:11:28.540 were going up.

00:11:29.520 They were thinning

00:11:30.940 or, you know,

00:11:32.300 thinning the protection

00:11:33.280 that we had

00:11:33.920 between us and the sun

00:11:35.160 and that the sun

00:11:36.020 was heating the earth

00:11:37.500 to, you know,

00:11:38.660 up a degree

00:11:39.200 or more degrees

00:11:40.060 in a way

00:11:41.360 that was potentially

00:11:41.960 dangerous to us.

00:11:43.180 But is that not

00:11:44.320 the connection?

00:11:45.520 There's a,

00:11:45.960 yeah,

00:11:46.100 you're describing

00:11:46.780 and totally understandable

00:11:48.360 because they both

00:11:49.320 kind of came about

00:11:50.100 at the same time,

00:11:50.700 but you're describing

00:11:51.300 two separate problems.

00:11:53.820 One is the thinning

00:11:55.580 of the ozone layer,

00:11:56.720 which indeed

00:11:57.420 has occurred

00:11:59.300 and,

00:11:59.640 but we are doing

00:12:01.740 a pretty good job

00:12:03.540 of addressing

00:12:04.020 there's some problems,

00:12:04.940 but it's not really

00:12:05.680 worth going into.

00:12:07.420 And we're doing

00:12:08.080 a pretty good job

00:12:08.760 of trying to restore

00:12:09.580 the ozone layer

00:12:10.520 through switching away

00:12:11.680 from the chemicals

00:12:12.400 that thinned it

00:12:13.660 because those were

00:12:14.960 exposing us

00:12:15.520 to really high levels

00:12:16.480 of,

00:12:16.840 and they do,

00:12:17.520 to higher levels

00:12:18.320 of sunlight

00:12:18.700 than we should want.

00:12:20.200 But then there's

00:12:20.700 a separate issue,

00:12:21.640 which is that

00:12:22.180 the carbon dioxide

00:12:23.040 and other gases,

00:12:24.520 though,

00:12:24.760 just to focus

00:12:25.220 on carbon emissions,

00:12:26.620 those form

00:12:27.460 a heat-trapping blanket

00:12:28.880 that just,

00:12:29.760 that just trap

00:12:30.960 more sunlight

00:12:32.420 and warmth

00:12:33.020 and heat

00:12:33.580 on this,

00:12:35.160 on the,

00:12:35.840 you know,

00:12:36.140 surface of the earth

00:12:36.960 and in the immediate

00:12:38.040 atmosphere above,

00:12:38.960 you know,

00:12:39.100 above us.

00:12:39.560 So that's,

00:12:40.580 and that's climate change,

00:12:41.520 that's global warming,

00:12:43.060 two separate problems,

00:12:44.820 one of which

00:12:45.780 is mostly in the process

00:12:46.800 of being fixed

00:12:47.360 and the other one

00:12:48.040 is one that

00:12:48.920 is also being addressed

00:12:51.080 significantly

00:12:51.780 by us reducing emissions,

00:12:53.300 but is also the one

00:12:54.000 that people are most

00:12:54.780 apocalyptic about right now.

00:12:57.040 Okay.

00:12:57.400 And this is so helpful,

00:12:58.820 by the way.

00:12:59.220 Okay, so

00:12:59.600 on that issue

00:13:01.500 of global warming,

00:13:02.620 the experts,

00:13:03.340 the so-called experts

00:13:03.960 tell me,

00:13:04.840 it's dire,

00:13:05.840 it's dire!

00:13:06.460 I mean,

00:13:07.440 it is like,

00:13:08.040 it's crazy,

00:13:08.720 the histrionics around this,

00:13:09.840 which is,

00:13:10.280 it generally leads me

00:13:11.180 to tune people out

00:13:11.920 because I'm like,

00:13:12.880 that person's clearly hysterical.

00:13:14.600 You know,

00:13:14.800 with all due respect

00:13:15.440 to the 16-year-old activist

00:13:16.940 from Sweden,

00:13:17.680 Greta Thunberg,

00:13:18.660 she seems hysterical

00:13:19.660 and I don't generally

00:13:20.360 get my advice

00:13:21.060 from 16-year-olds,

00:13:22.460 though I recognize

00:13:23.220 she's had a massive impact

00:13:24.420 and, you know,

00:13:25.040 on a sort of more

00:13:26.140 human level,

00:13:26.880 I respect the effort.

00:13:28.220 But,

00:13:29.040 you got people

00:13:29.560 like Bill Gates,

00:13:30.380 I have a couple quotes here.

00:13:31.480 Bill Gates says,

00:13:32.180 the planet has to reduce

00:13:33.180 the amount of greenhouse

00:13:33.960 emissions being pumped

00:13:35.240 into the atmosphere,

00:13:36.420 which is currently

00:13:36.960 at 51 billion tons a year,

00:13:38.900 he says,

00:13:39.420 to zero,

00:13:40.900 has to get to zero

00:13:41.940 by 2050,

00:13:42.960 or catastrophe.

00:13:45.380 That UN group

00:13:46.400 you just mentioned,

00:13:47.240 the Intergovernmental Panel

00:13:48.840 on Climate Change,

00:13:49.500 says the window

00:13:50.260 to address the threat

00:13:51.220 is closing rapidly.

00:13:52.720 Farmers are not going

00:13:53.320 to be able to grow

00:13:53.780 enough food

00:13:54.180 to support the human population.

00:13:56.240 NASA says,

00:13:57.780 the 2020 global average temperature

00:14:00.580 was 1.84 degrees

00:14:02.400 in Fahrenheit,

00:14:03.740 warmer than the baseline

00:14:06.100 1951 to 1980 mean,

00:14:09.160 which sounds kind of troubling.

00:14:10.900 And then you've got

00:14:11.500 the Wall Street Journal

00:14:12.220 not being hysterical,

00:14:13.500 but offering colorful facts

00:14:15.020 that bring it home,

00:14:15.840 like,

00:14:17.120 the melting permafrost

00:14:19.920 has spit out

00:14:21.180 human cadavers

00:14:22.920 and a woolly mammoth

00:14:24.700 that had been frozen

00:14:26.000 for the past 40,000 years,

00:14:28.400 talks about residents

00:14:29.960 of Tuvalu,

00:14:31.640 an island nation

00:14:32.340 in the South Pacific

00:14:33.100 who are jockeying right now

00:14:34.500 for space

00:14:35.180 as their island

00:14:36.440 is going underwater.

00:14:39.100 And just in case

00:14:39.960 I didn't bring it

00:14:40.660 totally home for you,

00:14:41.540 we've put together

00:14:42.140 this budded soundbite

00:14:43.860 of some of the cast

00:14:45.520 of favorites.

00:14:46.520 Listen.

00:14:47.040 Climate change

00:14:47.840 will kill

00:14:48.780 five times as many people

00:14:50.420 per year

00:14:51.340 as the peak

00:14:53.320 of the pandemic.

00:14:54.440 People are suffering.

00:14:56.580 People are dying.

00:14:58.400 Entire ecosystems

00:15:00.020 are collapsing.

00:15:02.100 We are in the beginning

00:15:03.200 of a mass extinction

00:15:05.160 and all you can talk about

00:15:07.040 is money

00:15:07.940 and fairy tales

00:15:09.300 of eternal economic growth.

00:15:12.140 How dare you?

00:15:13.260 In five years,

00:15:14.260 scientists predict

00:15:15.080 we will have the first

00:15:15.980 ice-free Arctic summer.

00:15:18.680 Millennials

00:15:19.520 and people

00:15:20.460 and, you know,

00:15:21.180 Gen Z

00:15:21.700 and all these folks

00:15:22.520 that come after us

00:15:23.540 are looking up

00:15:24.940 and we're like

00:15:26.020 the world

00:15:27.300 is going to end

00:15:27.900 in 12 years

00:15:28.580 if we don't address

00:15:29.280 climate change.

00:15:30.320 Animals that can eat grass

00:15:32.520 have very unusual stomachs

00:15:34.600 and so

00:15:35.080 they leak

00:15:36.380 natural gas

00:15:38.640 both out the front

00:15:39.700 and the back.

00:15:40.620 Nobody knows

00:15:41.180 how to get rid of

00:15:42.820 that.

00:15:43.480 No one knows

00:15:43.740 how to get cows

00:15:44.600 to stop farting.

00:15:45.380 Exactly.

00:15:46.200 But that's another

00:15:46.880 big source

00:15:47.900 of greenhouse

00:15:49.640 gas emissions.

00:15:51.580 Okay.

00:15:52.340 So we're at the beginning

00:15:53.120 of a mass extinction

00:15:54.040 and the world

00:15:55.020 is going to end

00:15:55.920 in 12 years

00:15:57.220 unless we do

00:15:57.920 what AOC tells us.

00:15:59.800 Your thoughts?

00:16:01.260 Yeah,

00:16:01.660 that's quite a

00:16:02.860 that's quite an amazing

00:16:05.200 set of quotes you have.

00:16:08.460 I mean,

00:16:08.660 what's interesting

00:16:09.120 is there's so much there.

00:16:10.220 I mean,

00:16:10.480 so just to pull

00:16:11.060 some of it apart,

00:16:13.580 you know,

00:16:13.880 sea levels are rising.

00:16:15.260 They're estimated

00:16:15.760 to rise by

00:16:17.080 0.6 meters

00:16:18.780 between now

00:16:19.440 and the end

00:16:19.720 of the century.

00:16:20.260 That's about two feet.

00:16:21.540 How terrible is that?

00:16:23.460 I mean,

00:16:23.740 not very.

00:16:25.020 I mean,

00:16:25.540 like,

00:16:25.820 has anybody

00:16:26.180 it's like I always

00:16:26.820 kind of ask

00:16:27.380 in the book

00:16:28.160 in Apocalypse Never

00:16:28.980 I talk about how

00:16:29.900 like,

00:16:30.500 has anybody been

00:16:31.000 to the Netherlands?

00:16:32.040 I mean,

00:16:32.780 when you go

00:16:33.240 to the Netherlands,

00:16:34.420 they farm

00:16:35.020 seven meters

00:16:35.760 below sea level.

00:16:37.000 You know,

00:16:37.160 it's like we have

00:16:37.860 entire civilizations

00:16:39.100 and the Netherlands,

00:16:40.040 by the way,

00:16:40.240 is one of the richest

00:16:40.860 countries in the world.

00:16:41.840 It was actually

00:16:42.740 the first really rich

00:16:43.740 country of Europe.

00:16:44.900 They became rich

00:16:46.000 through their

00:16:46.660 their sea-faring prowess,

00:16:49.120 which was also

00:16:49.840 a kind of

00:16:50.340 technical prowess

00:16:51.280 that had to,

00:16:51.980 that allowed them

00:16:52.700 to live below sea level.

00:16:53.840 So sea level rise

00:16:55.380 should not scare anybody.

00:16:58.620 You know,

00:16:59.300 the fact that there's

00:17:00.260 bodies in woolly mammoths

00:17:01.360 that are able to recover

00:17:01.980 from the melting tundra

00:17:03.000 is just cool.

00:17:04.400 Like,

00:17:04.760 anybody that says

00:17:05.500 that's not cool

00:17:06.180 and interesting

00:17:06.740 is just lying

00:17:07.820 because,

00:17:08.260 of course,

00:17:08.440 that's amazing.

00:17:10.600 You know,

00:17:10.880 environment,

00:17:11.600 you know,

00:17:12.060 the Earth changes.

00:17:13.200 So part of it

00:17:14.280 is that

00:17:14.700 there's just

00:17:15.120 environmental change

00:17:16.300 and there was

00:17:16.740 environmental change

00:17:17.500 before climate change,

00:17:19.280 before humans

00:17:20.200 put a lot of

00:17:21.420 greenhouse gases

00:17:22.120 in the atmosphere

00:17:22.820 and created warming.

00:17:24.620 So some of the,

00:17:25.440 some of what's happening

00:17:26.480 in those voices

00:17:27.700 that you heard

00:17:28.460 is people describing

00:17:29.400 changes

00:17:30.040 and then just

00:17:31.360 exaggerating

00:17:32.300 what could happen.

00:17:34.480 You know,

00:17:35.060 there's no magical year.

00:17:36.880 It's just a kind of,

00:17:38.260 you know,

00:17:38.620 it's just the more

00:17:39.500 carbon dioxide

00:17:40.060 in the atmosphere,

00:17:40.700 the warmer it'll be

00:17:41.480 and the warmer it'll be,

00:17:42.620 the more changes we'll see.

00:17:44.520 If you want to keep

00:17:46.020 things more

00:17:47.200 as they have been

00:17:48.320 rather than

00:17:49.080 having them change a lot,

00:17:50.700 then we should want,

00:17:51.560 you know,

00:17:51.760 less carbon emissions

00:17:52.580 all else being equal

00:17:53.420 and the issue is just always,

00:17:55.300 it's not all equal.

00:17:56.980 Like,

00:17:57.120 fossil fuels

00:17:57.640 are how people

00:17:58.180 are lifted out of poverty

00:17:59.180 in everywhere in the world

00:18:01.240 and it's always been that way

00:18:02.640 and it hasn't changed

00:18:03.840 and solar panels

00:18:05.360 haven't become magic

00:18:06.400 to then start working

00:18:07.820 at night

00:18:08.660 and wind turbines

00:18:10.020 don't suddenly work

00:18:10.880 when it's not windy.

00:18:11.860 It's just these technologies

00:18:13.040 in some fundamental senses

00:18:14.500 haven't changed.

00:18:15.580 So,

00:18:16.700 you know,

00:18:17.220 I mean,

00:18:17.460 I will say Bill Gates

00:18:18.380 is a little different

00:18:19.180 than Greta Thunberg

00:18:20.120 in that he recognizes

00:18:21.200 that you need nuclear power

00:18:23.080 and you can't power the world

00:18:24.320 without,

00:18:24.860 you can't have,

00:18:25.580 you know,

00:18:26.800 reliable,

00:18:27.480 cheap electricity

00:18:28.080 without carbon emissions

00:18:30.240 with any other source

00:18:31.100 of energy

00:18:31.500 than nuclear.

00:18:33.220 But yeah,

00:18:33.940 I mean,

00:18:34.200 he is also

00:18:35.160 somebody that wants to,

00:18:37.040 you know,

00:18:38.720 create some urgency.

00:18:39.720 If I'm saying this

00:18:40.980 in the most generous way possible

00:18:42.260 and fear

00:18:43.800 is just the most available

00:18:45.140 and,

00:18:46.460 you know,

00:18:47.300 action-oriented emotion,

00:18:48.540 you can get a lot

00:18:49.320 of short-term action.

00:18:50.360 I mean,

00:18:50.500 I thought Greta Thunberg

00:18:52.060 should have said it all

00:18:52.760 when she said,

00:18:53.820 I don't want you to have hope,

00:18:54.820 I want you to panic.

00:18:56.020 Well,

00:18:56.600 who would want anybody

00:18:57.580 to panic?

00:18:58.320 I mean,

00:18:58.520 panic literally means

00:18:59.760 to behave

00:19:00.340 in an unthinking way.

00:19:02.180 That's not something

00:19:02.960 I want for my worst enemies.

00:19:04.380 I don't want anybody

00:19:05.020 to panic.

00:19:05.700 It's dangerous.

00:19:06.260 So yeah,

00:19:07.780 I think you've got,

00:19:08.500 you've sampled

00:19:09.040 some of the real extreme

00:19:10.440 bad stuff

00:19:11.460 of the last few years.

00:19:13.460 So just to,

00:19:14.080 just to reiterate,

00:19:15.240 did you say that we're,

00:19:16.600 that the oceans

00:19:17.100 are going to rise

00:19:17.700 by two feet

00:19:18.560 by the end of this century?

00:19:21.080 Yes.

00:19:22.000 That's the,

00:19:22.540 that's the median estimate.

00:19:24.440 To me,

00:19:24.980 that sounds like a lot.

00:19:26.040 Like what about,

00:19:26.680 I have a beachfront property.

00:19:27.960 No,

00:19:28.160 actually we're slightly

00:19:29.020 off the beach,

00:19:29.540 but my point is like,

00:19:30.400 what about the people

00:19:31.080 who are at sea level?

00:19:32.280 Yeah.

00:19:32.560 I mean,

00:19:32.800 honestly,

00:19:33.100 I say to people,

00:19:33.860 they go,

00:19:34.540 people are like,

00:19:35.140 I've on Twitter,

00:19:36.700 people are putting

00:19:37.040 these photos up

00:19:37.820 of like these homes,

00:19:38.900 like these homes,

00:19:40.540 you know,

00:19:41.740 they'll have to move.

00:19:43.500 And I'm like,

00:19:44.620 cry me a river.

00:19:45.660 I mean,

00:19:45.860 no disrespect,

00:19:46.720 but I'm kind of like,

00:19:47.560 if you have like a house

00:19:48.640 on the,

00:19:49.100 on the,

00:19:49.660 on the beach,

00:19:50.700 like,

00:19:51.800 sorry,

00:19:52.420 but like you may have

00:19:53.580 to move indoors.

00:19:54.280 Like,

00:19:54.560 I mean,

00:19:54.780 as compared to what

00:19:55.840 problem in the world

00:19:56.920 does that even rank

00:19:58.080 close to?

00:19:59.180 And then people go,

00:20:00.140 well,

00:20:00.320 people in Bangladesh.

00:20:01.400 Okay.

00:20:01.600 Well,

00:20:01.740 people in Bangladesh

00:20:02.260 are very poor.

00:20:03.020 They live on the coasts,

00:20:04.200 but the main factor

00:20:05.760 for now and in 2100

00:20:08.500 for the people

00:20:09.100 that are farmers

00:20:09.620 in Bangladesh

00:20:10.100 on the coast

00:20:10.800 is whether or not

00:20:11.340 there's jobs

00:20:11.920 in the cities

00:20:12.760 that they can move

00:20:14.400 to and get.

00:20:15.520 And that is just,

00:20:16.920 you know,

00:20:17.280 we're not going to,

00:20:18.900 you know,

00:20:19.300 so you kind of go,

00:20:20.540 what are we worried

00:20:21.540 about exactly?

00:20:22.400 That some people

00:20:22.840 that live on the coast

00:20:23.600 are going to have

00:20:24.020 to move inland

00:20:24.760 a little bit.

00:20:25.980 And you mentioned

00:20:26.720 the island of Tuvalu.

00:20:28.080 I mean,

00:20:28.320 I kind of laugh

00:20:29.080 at these little islands.

00:20:30.000 Like,

00:20:30.300 first of all,

00:20:31.160 let's just assume

00:20:31.900 the worst is true

00:20:32.740 and there's not evidence

00:20:33.680 that the worst will happen

00:20:34.480 and that those islands

00:20:35.320 are inundated.

00:20:36.440 So what?

00:20:36.980 A few thousand people?

00:20:38.940 Like,

00:20:39.100 last time,

00:20:39.580 like,

00:20:39.840 there's like almost

00:20:41.020 eight billion people

00:20:42.060 in the world

00:20:42.660 and you're worried

00:20:43.240 about a couple thousand

00:20:44.420 people on islands

00:20:45.840 having to move,

00:20:47.160 you know,

00:20:47.640 inland

00:20:48.120 or to some other island.

00:20:49.420 I'm just kind of like,

00:20:50.080 in the history

00:20:50.720 of,

00:20:51.500 like,

00:20:51.940 wars and genocides

00:20:53.280 and refugees

00:20:54.040 and crises,

00:20:55.860 that's like a,

00:20:56.740 that's nothing.

00:20:57.740 That's a joke.

00:20:58.300 You know how often

00:20:59.440 the issue of Tuvalu

00:21:00.240 comes up

00:21:00.760 in the presidential debates.

00:21:02.240 Everyone's worried

00:21:02.820 about what's going to happen

00:21:03.760 to the Tuvaluians.

00:21:05.880 Yeah.

00:21:06.980 But,

00:21:07.520 okay,

00:21:07.740 so you admit

00:21:08.800 there is a problem.

00:21:10.300 There's a difference

00:21:10.880 of opinion

00:21:11.320 on how dire,

00:21:12.860 but I think

00:21:13.600 most people

00:21:14.180 would say,

00:21:14.860 okay,

00:21:15.200 is there a way

00:21:16.140 of reversing that?

00:21:17.400 Can we stop it?

00:21:18.800 And is,

00:21:19.380 what's the answer

00:21:20.140 to that?

00:21:20.660 Because,

00:21:20.900 you know,

00:21:21.120 Gates is basically saying

00:21:22.120 you got to,

00:21:22.860 you got to get rid

00:21:23.520 of all greenhouse emissions

00:21:25.080 by 2050

00:21:26.900 or we're looking

00:21:27.800 at catastrophe.

00:21:28.920 So,

00:21:29.420 do you agree

00:21:30.140 that we got to get rid

00:21:31.980 of all greenhouse emissions

00:21:33.980 and within the next,

00:21:35.540 you know,

00:21:36.000 let's say 50 years?

00:21:37.500 Well,

00:21:37.600 the way I try to answer it

00:21:39.160 is with some sense

00:21:40.100 of history.

00:21:40.820 So,

00:21:41.060 I mean,

00:21:41.220 we have,

00:21:42.320 what's occurred,

00:21:43.040 when I mentioned

00:21:43.420 the U.S.

00:21:43.800 has reduced its carbon emissions

00:21:45.080 over the last 20 years

00:21:46.300 more than any other country,

00:21:47.300 we did so

00:21:47.900 because of fracking

00:21:49.600 for natural gas,

00:21:50.840 which is a process

00:21:51.900 that allows us

00:21:52.740 to basically release

00:21:54.560 a lot of natural gas

00:21:55.560 trapped in rock

00:21:56.640 formation called Shale

00:21:57.720 about a mile underground.

00:21:59.080 It's an incredible

00:21:59.880 technological revolution.

00:22:01.720 It's,

00:22:02.580 everybody agrees,

00:22:04.120 even radical environmentalists

00:22:05.520 in our quieter moments,

00:22:06.980 that natural gas

00:22:07.960 is better than coal.

00:22:09.360 And so,

00:22:09.720 we've been moving

00:22:10.360 away from coal

00:22:11.260 towards natural gas.

00:22:12.480 It's sad

00:22:12.960 for some communities,

00:22:14.120 but even in places

00:22:14.840 like West Virginia

00:22:15.500 and Ohio,

00:22:16.220 they're actually fracking

00:22:17.220 for gas,

00:22:17.860 so they've been able

00:22:18.540 to replace

00:22:19.080 some of the lost jobs.

00:22:20.900 But basically,

00:22:21.540 everybody kind of goes

00:22:22.480 obviously burning gas

00:22:24.060 is better than burning coal

00:22:25.000 and it reduces

00:22:25.620 carbon emissions

00:22:26.240 by half.

00:22:28.160 So we've already had

00:22:29.720 these energy transitions.

00:22:31.680 I think that

00:22:32.460 we will eventually

00:22:33.660 move to nuclear

00:22:34.580 after exhausting

00:22:35.840 all other options

00:22:36.800 because it's such

00:22:37.860 a controversial technology.

00:22:39.960 And in that process,

00:22:40.940 we'll probably end up

00:22:42.140 moving either

00:22:42.680 to hydrogen-powered

00:22:43.800 fuel cell cars

00:22:44.880 or electric cars.

00:22:47.040 I don't know which.

00:22:47.840 Probably hydrogen

00:22:48.840 fuel cell cars.

00:22:49.520 And that'll happen

00:22:51.560 over the next,

00:22:53.360 you know,

00:22:53.780 if you kind of gauge

00:22:54.880 by the way

00:22:56.020 that the capital

00:22:57.500 turns over,

00:22:58.320 the equipment

00:22:58.740 turns over,

00:22:59.360 the power plants

00:22:59.940 turn over,

00:23:00.700 that's all going to occur

00:23:01.600 over the next 50

00:23:02.460 to 100 years.

00:23:04.680 Bill Gates says

00:23:05.260 it has to happen

00:23:05.820 by 2030,

00:23:08.160 2050.

00:23:09.160 You know,

00:23:09.560 I mean,

00:23:10.460 we may be close

00:23:11.960 to peak

00:23:12.760 global emissions.

00:23:14.780 As I mentioned,

00:23:15.400 the United States

00:23:15.960 and most rich countries

00:23:16.880 have been reducing

00:23:17.580 their emissions

00:23:18.020 for years,

00:23:18.820 if not decades.

00:23:21.200 It's just the poor countries

00:23:22.800 that are now developing

00:23:24.080 and industrializing

00:23:25.160 that are seeing

00:23:25.680 their emissions go up

00:23:26.980 and nobody should try

00:23:27.960 to stop them

00:23:28.540 from doing that

00:23:29.240 since that's how

00:23:29.800 they lift their people

00:23:30.540 out of poverty.

00:23:32.140 So, yeah,

00:23:32.620 I mean,

00:23:32.820 honestly,

00:23:33.160 we could be at peak emissions.

00:23:35.180 You know,

00:23:35.420 I think it's probably

00:23:36.060 more like,

00:23:36.540 if you made me guess,

00:23:37.380 I'd say probably

00:23:37.900 more like in 10 years.

00:23:39.040 So, I think emissions

00:23:39.860 will peak in 2030

00:23:41.020 and then they'll go

00:23:42.300 down gradually.

00:23:43.440 They'll go down

00:23:44.160 to zero

00:23:45.420 by,

00:23:46.960 I don't know,

00:23:47.900 2100,

00:23:48.980 2150.

00:23:50.400 And that means

00:23:51.280 that temperatures

00:23:51.780 are going to keep

00:23:52.340 going up

00:23:53.020 but probably not

00:23:54.540 to really scary levels.

00:23:56.160 Probably,

00:23:56.960 you know,

00:23:57.200 I think most people

00:23:57.680 think they'll go up

00:23:58.340 three degrees

00:23:59.500 above industrial levels.

00:24:02.060 That's not great.

00:24:03.260 I wish,

00:24:03.700 I think most people

00:24:04.340 would wish that we

00:24:04.900 would only go up

00:24:05.620 two degrees

00:24:06.460 or less

00:24:07.280 but like I said,

00:24:08.620 it's not like,

00:24:10.060 it's just an issue of,

00:24:11.660 it's more like a dial

00:24:12.560 than a switch.

00:24:13.480 It's not like some switch

00:24:14.500 is going to be flipped

00:24:15.200 and then suddenly

00:24:16.000 we're going to be living,

00:24:17.220 you know,

00:24:18.320 in the dark ages

00:24:19.800 or something

00:24:20.380 or suddenly we're not

00:24:21.380 able to produce food.

00:24:23.320 What does that look like?

00:24:24.300 If we go up three degrees

00:24:25.640 and the year is 2110,

00:24:28.180 let's say,

00:24:29.240 what does,

00:24:29.800 what does society look like?

00:24:31.960 What does the earth look like?

00:24:33.440 I mean,

00:24:33.760 it looks like it does now

00:24:34.940 but warmer.

00:24:36.600 I mean,

00:24:37.320 you know,

00:24:38.000 I mean,

00:24:38.480 to some extent

00:24:38.980 it's happening,

00:24:39.780 right?

00:24:40.120 I mean,

00:24:40.580 or,

00:24:41.860 you know,

00:24:42.060 it may be happening.

00:24:43.020 It's hard to,

00:24:43.800 you know,

00:24:44.060 again,

00:24:44.320 if you're trying to

00:24:45.040 talk about climate change,

00:24:46.040 you're usually trying

00:24:46.840 to talk about changes

00:24:47.860 to the weather

00:24:48.560 over 30-year periods.

00:24:51.340 The climate just refers

00:24:52.260 to the average temperature

00:24:53.520 and weather

00:24:54.060 of a given place

00:24:55.020 or a given period of time.

00:24:56.120 So it could be,

00:24:56.800 you could say the climate

00:24:57.640 of, you know,

00:24:58.340 the last six months

00:24:59.080 but it's not particularly helpful

00:25:00.520 mostly we say by 30 years.

00:25:02.020 So,

00:25:02.560 but, you know,

00:25:02.980 let's say,

00:25:03.440 so California gets drier

00:25:05.060 and hotter.

00:25:06.520 Canada,

00:25:07.160 more of Canada

00:25:07.840 and more of Russia

00:25:08.900 open up to farming.

00:25:10.580 And that's not terrible

00:25:11.360 at all.

00:25:13.140 Hotter parts of the world

00:25:14.460 potentially get hotter

00:25:16.100 and that means that

00:25:17.460 they have to change

00:25:18.840 how they grow food.

00:25:20.120 But it's not like

00:25:20.980 we suddenly,

00:25:21.680 it's not like

00:25:22.360 we suddenly stop growing food.

00:25:24.560 And the main event

00:25:25.440 when it comes to like food,

00:25:26.660 which everybody worries about

00:25:27.600 because you need food,

00:25:28.900 you worry that Africans

00:25:30.720 can produce enough food

00:25:33.000 because they're the poorest

00:25:33.780 people in the world.

00:25:34.600 And so,

00:25:35.200 well,

00:25:35.320 what determines

00:25:36.040 how much food Africans produce

00:25:37.460 is whether they have fertilizer

00:25:39.880 irrigation

00:25:40.620 and tractors

00:25:41.900 like the same things

00:25:43.440 that mattered for Americans.

00:25:44.720 And I think it's telling

00:25:46.420 and disturbing

00:25:47.180 that the people

00:25:48.520 that say they care

00:25:49.320 the most about climate change

00:25:50.280 are also trying

00:25:50.900 to deprive Africans

00:25:52.120 of fertilizer,

00:25:53.140 irrigation,

00:25:53.660 and tractors.

00:25:54.580 So if they really cared

00:25:55.660 about that issue,

00:25:57.060 they wouldn't be trying

00:25:57.900 to deprive poor countries

00:25:59.180 of economic development.

00:26:00.260 coming up,

00:26:01.900 we're going to get into

00:26:02.640 with Michael

00:26:03.180 what President Biden

00:26:04.380 has been suggesting

00:26:05.480 is going to happen here.

00:26:07.000 Climate change

00:26:08.060 is going to threaten

00:26:09.440 the existence of the planet.

00:26:11.280 Run for your lives!

00:26:13.140 Weirdly,

00:26:13.660 there was no fact check

00:26:14.420 on that by PolitiFact,

00:26:15.700 but in any event,

00:26:16.460 we'll ask Michael

00:26:17.160 what he thinks

00:26:18.460 when we come back.

00:26:19.700 Don't go away.

00:26:20.080 We heard from our president

00:26:24.920 a very different forecast.

00:26:27.520 He said,

00:26:28.560 climate change,

00:26:29.460 quoting now,

00:26:30.900 will threaten,

00:26:32.220 literally,

00:26:33.300 the existence

00:26:34.000 of our planet

00:26:35.500 if we don't take

00:26:36.980 global action.

00:26:38.460 And that is what

00:26:39.460 a lot of people believe,

00:26:41.180 that the planet

00:26:42.640 is going away.

00:26:44.500 Listen to Greta,

00:26:45.940 how dare you,

00:26:47.140 Turnberg!

00:26:48.520 But to come from

00:26:49.880 our sitting president,

00:26:50.960 I mean,

00:26:51.200 that's quite a charge.

00:26:52.660 Your thoughts on that one?

00:26:54.000 It's ridiculous

00:26:55.100 and sad,

00:26:56.780 and also,

00:26:57.420 as a reflection

00:26:58.220 on the state

00:26:58.860 of the news media,

00:27:00.460 there was no fact checking,

00:27:01.820 there was no correction

00:27:02.580 on that,

00:27:03.420 there was no

00:27:03.960 Washington Post

00:27:04.760 story about that,

00:27:06.940 there was,

00:27:07.200 at least,

00:27:07.460 I'm sorry,

00:27:07.680 maybe if there was,

00:27:08.300 I hadn't seen it,

00:27:09.360 no Snopes investigation.

00:27:11.860 It just tells you

00:27:12.660 the extent to which

00:27:13.400 climate change

00:27:14.020 has become a religion

00:27:14.900 for secular,

00:27:16.820 you know,

00:27:17.400 Western elites.

00:27:18.800 You know,

00:27:18.960 in my book,

00:27:19.360 I talk about

00:27:19.940 there's three big factors

00:27:21.140 behind this apocalyptic

00:27:22.240 environmentalism.

00:27:23.320 There's money,

00:27:24.020 power,

00:27:24.420 and religion.

00:27:25.820 And I just think

00:27:26.400 for a lot of people,

00:27:28.000 particularly people

00:27:28.840 that don't think

00:27:29.800 they're religious,

00:27:30.780 for people that think

00:27:31.500 they're somehow free

00:27:32.380 of religious thinking,

00:27:34.420 that it's become

00:27:35.120 a reason,

00:27:36.880 it's become something

00:27:37.800 to feel morally superior about,

00:27:39.800 it's become something

00:27:40.680 to kind of show

00:27:42.820 your status

00:27:43.700 and your superiority

00:27:44.720 to others.

00:27:46.460 You know,

00:27:46.700 it used to be

00:27:47.100 that if you were rich,

00:27:48.040 you would just want

00:27:48.820 to be admired

00:27:49.360 for being rich.

00:27:50.720 Like,

00:27:50.860 that's just how it was.

00:27:51.880 But now,

00:27:52.460 you want to be admired

00:27:53.180 for being rich

00:27:54.080 and green.

00:27:55.320 And so,

00:27:55.580 if you drive a Tesla,

00:27:57.140 that's what you're doing,

00:27:58.160 right?

00:27:58.620 And so,

00:27:59.140 you know,

00:28:00.120 it's become a kind of,

00:28:01.500 you know,

00:28:02.860 talisman,

00:28:03.660 a kind of symbol.

00:28:07.740 And,

00:28:08.200 you know,

00:28:08.540 there's just some

00:28:09.520 crass financial motives here.

00:28:11.120 I mean,

00:28:11.640 you know,

00:28:12.060 the guys that make money

00:28:13.540 retrofitting homes

00:28:14.520 with insulation

00:28:15.480 and retrofitting

00:28:16.500 that make it a little bit

00:28:17.540 more energy efficient,

00:28:19.460 those guys all,

00:28:20.500 you know,

00:28:21.140 stand to make a lot of money

00:28:22.000 on the stimulus

00:28:22.540 and they'll donate

00:28:23.200 to Republican candidates

00:28:24.220 and same thing

00:28:24.940 for the renewables guys.

00:28:27.420 So,

00:28:27.640 you know,

00:28:27.920 there's a kind of,

00:28:28.960 you know,

00:28:31.100 I think it's,

00:28:31.960 people are always asking me

00:28:33.040 which is it?

00:28:33.780 And I always point out,

00:28:34.560 you know,

00:28:34.700 when the conquistadores

00:28:35.660 went to Mexico,

00:28:36.480 they really believed in God,

00:28:38.780 but they also went to the gold.

00:28:41.260 The two things are not

00:28:42.500 inconsistent.

00:28:44.400 And I think that's what we're seeing

00:28:45.300 with renewables,

00:28:46.560 efficiency,

00:28:47.200 and climate apocalypse.

00:28:49.060 When I listen to people

00:28:50.040 like John Kerry,

00:28:50.920 you heard him in that

00:28:51.820 soundbite there saying,

00:28:53.720 in five years,

00:28:55.020 scientists predict

00:28:55.980 we will have,

00:28:56.960 this is,

00:28:57.360 by the way,

00:28:58.320 seven years ago,

00:29:00.560 scientists predict

00:29:02.000 we will have the first

00:29:03.180 ice-free Arctic summer.

00:29:05.840 I think,

00:29:06.640 how many times

00:29:07.540 do they have to be proven wrong?

00:29:08.780 before

00:29:09.620 those in their cult

00:29:12.220 start questioning them.

00:29:14.580 But,

00:29:15.040 I do hear

00:29:16.360 more credible people

00:29:17.500 take things like

00:29:19.140 hurricanes

00:29:19.960 and say,

00:29:21.460 you see,

00:29:22.320 or,

00:29:23.100 I don't know if I'd say credible,

00:29:24.540 but,

00:29:24.860 you know,

00:29:25.100 we have like the wildfires

00:29:26.280 in California,

00:29:27.080 you got people like

00:29:27.880 Leonardo DiCaprio

00:29:28.840 going,

00:29:29.660 see,

00:29:30.620 and they point to any

00:29:31.760 sort of natural disaster,

00:29:33.340 hurricanes,

00:29:34.060 or fires,

00:29:34.840 or what have you,

00:29:35.780 and say,

00:29:36.800 this is our future.

00:29:37.560 This is Earth

00:29:38.520 in the future

00:29:39.200 unless you don't

00:29:40.680 drive an SUV,

00:29:42.140 you turn down

00:29:43.700 your thermometer

00:29:44.580 in your car,

00:29:45.820 and you power

00:29:47.080 your house

00:29:47.600 with solar panels.

00:29:49.480 Yeah,

00:29:49.780 I mean,

00:29:50.220 let's just take

00:29:51.120 the hurricanes

00:29:51.820 because this is just

00:29:52.980 obnoxious.

00:29:54.220 So,

00:29:54.920 the U.S.

00:29:55.580 government's

00:29:56.160 National Oceanic

00:29:57.020 and Atmospheric

00:29:57.440 Administration,

00:29:58.240 which is NOAA,

00:29:59.300 it is the main agency

00:30:00.560 that everybody relies on,

00:30:02.520 they predict

00:30:03.120 that the maximum

00:30:03.780 intensity

00:30:04.500 of Atlantic hurricanes,

00:30:06.140 which are the hurricanes

00:30:06.660 we worry about the most,

00:30:07.660 and tropical storms,

00:30:09.180 the intensity

00:30:10.000 will rise 5%

00:30:12.000 this century,

00:30:14.480 but their frequency

00:30:15.580 will decline

00:30:16.460 by 25%.

00:30:17.860 So,

00:30:19.160 what exactly

00:30:20.100 are people worried about?

00:30:21.580 I mean,

00:30:22.560 there has been no,

00:30:24.140 so when a hurricane

00:30:25.320 hits Miami Beach today,

00:30:27.380 it causes more

00:30:28.820 economic damage,

00:30:30.220 but all,

00:30:30.880 than it did in,

00:30:31.460 say, 1920,

00:30:32.260 okay,

00:30:32.460 100 years ago.

00:30:33.940 But the reason

00:30:34.880 is because

00:30:35.360 there's so much

00:30:35.800 more wealth,

00:30:36.600 there's so many

00:30:36.940 more buildings,

00:30:37.800 there's so much

00:30:38.160 more infrastructure,

00:30:39.300 there's the whole,

00:30:40.280 that's development,

00:30:41.280 and so,

00:30:41.760 it's entirely

00:30:42.980 explained by that.

00:30:44.980 There's no evidence

00:30:46.280 that hurricanes

00:30:47.120 are causing,

00:30:48.500 that are more intense

00:30:49.680 because they're causing

00:30:50.460 more damage.

00:30:51.420 If they become

00:30:52.180 25% less frequent

00:30:53.880 and 5% more intense,

00:30:56.260 they're probably

00:30:56.640 going to cause

00:30:57.040 less damage.

00:30:58.740 So,

00:30:59.000 I mean,

00:30:59.280 on these,

00:30:59.740 you know,

00:31:00.060 here's another example.

00:31:01.660 In my book,

00:31:02.460 I talk about

00:31:02.860 the Amazon

00:31:03.340 and the alarmism

00:31:04.560 around the Amazon,

00:31:07.580 you know,

00:31:08.740 and I,

00:31:09.060 and there's,

00:31:10.000 and it didn't even

00:31:10.840 make the book,

00:31:11.340 but I interview a guy,

00:31:12.480 he points out,

00:31:13.320 he goes,

00:31:13.700 you know,

00:31:13.820 the problem

00:31:14.240 with a lot of this

00:31:14.840 stuff is that

00:31:15.480 they keep changing

00:31:16.600 their mind

00:31:17.280 on the Amazon.

00:31:18.420 Is it going to,

00:31:18.940 is climate change

00:31:19.520 going to cause

00:31:19.940 more rain

00:31:20.700 and thus more floods,

00:31:22.520 or is it going to

00:31:23.200 cause less rain

00:31:24.160 and thus more droughts?

00:31:25.480 Like,

00:31:26.240 we're pretty good

00:31:26.940 at predicting

00:31:27.460 global temperatures,

00:31:28.940 but we're like,

00:31:29.520 pretty terrible

00:31:30.560 at predicting

00:31:31.140 local impacts.

00:31:32.540 I mean,

00:31:32.740 I think some of it

00:31:33.480 is reasonable

00:31:34.040 to think,

00:31:34.720 you know,

00:31:34.900 California will get

00:31:35.500 hotter and drier.

00:31:36.260 That's pretty reasonable.

00:31:37.580 But a lot of other stuff

00:31:38.520 we don't know

00:31:39.280 and,

00:31:40.080 you know,

00:31:41.480 but the idea

00:31:42.680 that somehow

00:31:43.260 it's going to end

00:31:43.920 in some Mad Max

00:31:44.880 reality

00:31:45.360 is like a joke.

00:31:46.960 Like,

00:31:47.140 it's,

00:31:47.360 and the truth is

00:31:48.220 it's not anything

00:31:49.500 that anybody

00:31:50.060 will actually be able

00:31:50.980 to notice.

00:31:51.480 It's more something

00:31:52.340 that we'll be able

00:31:53.620 to tell from

00:31:54.320 much more subtle

00:31:55.280 trends,

00:31:56.080 you know,

00:31:56.940 in data.

00:31:57.880 What about,

00:31:59.220 you're talking about

00:32:00.320 the oceans rising.

00:32:03.280 One of the things

00:32:04.360 that people point to

00:32:06.040 is the amount

00:32:06.760 of plastic waste

00:32:07.660 in the oceans,

00:32:09.000 right?

00:32:09.200 And that's why

00:32:09.580 we're having

00:32:10.000 paper straws now

00:32:11.000 and can't have

00:32:11.780 the very convenient

00:32:13.040 plastic bags,

00:32:14.040 which I loved

00:32:14.780 at the grocery store.

00:32:15.780 It is a hassle.

00:32:17.060 Whoever remembers

00:32:17.980 their damn bag

00:32:18.980 when,

00:32:19.320 no one,

00:32:19.960 no one.

00:32:20.520 Anyway,

00:32:20.800 it's a pain in the butt,

00:32:21.580 but I have to do it

00:32:22.780 because now it's the law

00:32:23.840 and I have to drink

00:32:24.780 out of the paper straw

00:32:25.560 because now that's the law

00:32:26.600 and my one comfort

00:32:27.600 is like,

00:32:28.060 well,

00:32:28.160 maybe I'm saving

00:32:28.880 a baby turtle.

00:32:30.420 So am I saving

00:32:31.440 a baby turtle

00:32:32.240 or is this literally

00:32:33.900 teaspoons in the ocean

00:32:35.100 that we're trying

00:32:36.080 to resolve here?

00:32:37.400 Yeah.

00:32:37.960 Well,

00:32:38.260 there's a lot,

00:32:38.840 there's a lot to unpack.

00:32:39.820 I mean,

00:32:39.940 the first thing

00:32:40.480 is just that

00:32:41.160 before we had plastics

00:32:43.020 made of fossil fuels,

00:32:44.340 which is made

00:32:45.020 of a byproduct

00:32:45.940 from the petrochemical

00:32:46.820 industry.

00:32:47.460 So in other words,

00:32:48.120 every plastic,

00:32:49.160 most of the plastics

00:32:49.680 that we use today

00:32:50.440 are actually already

00:32:52.000 a productive reuse

00:32:53.520 of a waste byproduct.

00:32:54.880 And so when you

00:32:56.620 think of it that way,

00:32:57.900 what plastic,

00:32:58.660 what did we make

00:32:59.320 plastics before we

00:33:00.520 had petrochemical

00:33:02.740 plastics?

00:33:03.560 We used animals.

00:33:05.140 So we used the tusks

00:33:06.800 from elephants

00:33:07.780 to make piano keys

00:33:10.200 and billiard balls.

00:33:12.820 And then we used

00:33:14.040 the shell from sea

00:33:15.260 turtles to make

00:33:16.400 what is,

00:33:17.420 was misnamed

00:33:18.140 tortoise shell glasses

00:33:19.460 or tortoise shell

00:33:20.280 jewelry.

00:33:20.660 And they would rip

00:33:21.680 the shells off

00:33:22.680 sea turtles

00:33:23.460 in really brutal fashion.

00:33:26.460 And we almost wiped

00:33:27.420 out sea turtles

00:33:28.240 by using their

00:33:29.020 shells for plastic.

00:33:30.100 So what saved

00:33:30.980 sea turtles

00:33:31.840 was using plastics

00:33:33.880 from fossil

00:33:34.440 because then we no

00:33:35.320 longer needed to hunt

00:33:36.380 sea turtles

00:33:37.120 to extinction.

00:33:38.020 So in truth,

00:33:39.120 plastic has saved

00:33:40.280 wildlife,

00:33:42.320 not killed it,

00:33:43.820 has saved more

00:33:44.420 wildlife than killed it.

00:33:45.480 As for the plastic

00:33:47.540 waste in the ocean,

00:33:49.140 it appears that

00:33:50.040 it's almost entirely

00:33:51.120 a function of

00:33:52.280 attempting to recycle.

00:33:54.280 So we now know

00:33:54.980 that over 90 percent,

00:33:56.900 I know it's really

00:33:57.760 a scandal.

00:33:58.180 You can't make it up.

00:33:59.680 No, it's actually

00:34:00.520 much more,

00:34:01.020 it's much worse

00:34:01.600 than anybody,

00:34:02.200 no one's really

00:34:02.780 properly reported

00:34:03.640 on it yet.

00:34:05.360 But basically 90 percent

00:34:06.580 of the plastics

00:34:07.760 that we pretend

00:34:08.860 to recycle

00:34:09.500 is not recycled.

00:34:12.520 And most of it

00:34:13.520 is shipped,

00:34:14.420 has long been shipped,

00:34:15.460 to poor and developing

00:34:16.540 countries.

00:34:17.260 China finally,

00:34:18.280 a couple years ago,

00:34:19.180 said they wouldn't

00:34:19.720 take it anymore.

00:34:20.840 Yes.

00:34:21.400 But the recyclers.

00:34:22.420 I've never seen a report on this.

00:34:23.840 Yeah.

00:34:24.320 So it is good

00:34:25.340 to recycle your

00:34:26.180 aluminum cans

00:34:26.980 and your tin cans

00:34:27.880 and your glass.

00:34:30.220 Those are all,

00:34:30.980 and paper,

00:34:31.500 those are all things

00:34:32.140 that are good to recycle

00:34:33.200 because the process

00:34:34.320 of recycling them,

00:34:35.600 it's worth it

00:34:37.000 to recycle.

00:34:38.100 It's not worth it

00:34:39.120 to recycle plastic.

00:34:40.400 It's just not,

00:34:40.940 it's just not,

00:34:41.580 it's so light

00:34:42.360 and it's not high quality

00:34:43.420 enough that you just

00:34:44.160 end up using more labor

00:34:45.260 and energy

00:34:45.820 to recycle it.

00:34:47.780 We have a good solution

00:34:48.920 to plastic waste

00:34:49.740 and it's landfills,

00:34:51.200 which we use mostly

00:34:52.260 in the United States

00:34:52.880 and in Europe

00:34:53.880 and other countries

00:34:54.540 like including Japan,

00:34:55.600 they incinerate

00:34:56.400 and there was,

00:34:57.700 their incineration

00:34:58.400 wasn't as good

00:34:59.300 as it was today,

00:35:00.500 40 years ago.

00:35:01.420 But today,

00:35:02.340 you know,

00:35:02.580 in Tokyo

00:35:03.120 where people are famously

00:35:04.360 paranoid of pollution,

00:35:06.460 they incinerate

00:35:07.880 their plastic waste

00:35:08.940 right there

00:35:09.320 in the middle of the city

00:35:10.160 and it's done safely.

00:35:11.720 So we have good solutions

00:35:12.900 but it was the effort

00:35:13.960 to recycle

00:35:14.820 that resulted in us

00:35:15.760 shipping our plastic waste

00:35:17.060 to poor countries

00:35:17.700 which then ended up

00:35:18.500 making its way

00:35:19.000 into the oceans.

00:35:20.540 Wow.

00:35:21.480 That's unbelievable.

00:35:23.320 So let me,

00:35:24.100 I mean,

00:35:24.260 here in New York,

00:35:24.920 if you put your plastic

00:35:26.120 in your trash bag,

00:35:28.060 the city will slap you

00:35:29.320 with a fine.

00:35:30.220 You know,

00:35:30.400 they actually do go

00:35:31.140 through the trash bags

00:35:31.900 and figure out

00:35:32.460 who's not following the rules.

00:35:34.220 But,

00:35:34.840 and I don't know

00:35:35.340 where you are,

00:35:35.860 but do you,

00:35:36.520 do you put your plastic bottles

00:35:38.900 in the trash

00:35:39.700 or in the recycling bin?

00:35:41.460 Well,

00:35:41.660 I'm literally,

00:35:42.320 like right now,

00:35:43.400 I mean,

00:35:43.620 so in Apocalypse Never,

00:35:45.460 I have a chapter on plastics

00:35:46.640 and we got very close

00:35:48.740 without quite explicitly saying

00:35:52.260 that the reason

00:35:53.100 for all the plastic waste

00:35:54.180 in the ocean

00:35:54.680 was because of rich world consumers

00:35:57.720 trying to recycle their waste.

00:36:00.200 But since the book came out,

00:36:01.860 which was last summer,

00:36:02.900 there's been more reports

00:36:04.620 that have really connected the dots.

00:36:06.620 So literally,

00:36:07.080 I was just talking to my wife

00:36:08.120 because it doesn't feel right

00:36:09.460 even to me

00:36:10.500 I know this better than anybody.

00:36:12.060 It doesn't feel right to me

00:36:12.780 to even throw my plastic

00:36:14.040 in the trash,

00:36:14.640 but I'm doing it.

00:36:15.960 I don't know if my wife

00:36:16.740 has completely shifted over.

00:36:19.020 I mean,

00:36:19.200 I thought,

00:36:19.560 I think it's such a scandal

00:36:20.660 that I was even thinking

00:36:22.940 like someone should do a book on it

00:36:24.260 and I'm just kind of tired of it

00:36:25.800 because I wrote,

00:36:26.580 I wrote a whole chapter on it already.

00:36:28.360 But I think somebody

00:36:29.360 should like campaign

00:36:30.300 to make them

00:36:31.020 to stop recycling plastic

00:36:32.880 because that's what's causing

00:36:34.740 the plastic in the oceans.

00:36:36.240 It's a crazy,

00:36:38.360 it's just,

00:36:39.320 but it's sort of also

00:36:40.300 not surprising.

00:36:41.880 So the paper straw bit

00:36:43.040 is absurd.

00:36:44.700 It's doing nothing.

00:36:45.980 Totally absurd.

00:36:46.900 And what's worse

00:36:47.600 is that they're now

00:36:48.460 trying to create

00:36:49.060 these things called bioplastics

00:36:51.020 where they will make

00:36:51.920 like utensils

00:36:52.920 and cups

00:36:53.540 out of like corn.

00:36:55.140 That's terrible.

00:36:56.600 You don't want that

00:36:57.640 because what you want

00:36:58.720 is to reduce

00:36:59.540 the amount of land

00:37:00.500 that we use

00:37:01.200 for growing grains,

00:37:03.080 you know,

00:37:03.340 like crops

00:37:03.940 and also biofuels

00:37:05.080 is the same thing.

00:37:06.560 See,

00:37:06.940 if you're,

00:37:07.460 because the plastic,

00:37:09.220 it's not like

00:37:10.060 when you're using plastic

00:37:11.360 that you're,

00:37:13.000 it's not like

00:37:13.420 you're introducing,

00:37:14.320 you know,

00:37:15.320 more air pollution

00:37:16.220 or something

00:37:16.700 or that you're even

00:37:17.380 using more fossil fuels.

00:37:18.540 It's all byproduct

00:37:19.780 from an existing industry

00:37:21.260 that is not going away,

00:37:22.600 by the way.

00:37:24.020 I mean,

00:37:24.200 this is where a lot of it

00:37:24.980 was motivated

00:37:25.560 by some idea

00:37:26.280 that we're going to

00:37:27.380 suddenly stop using

00:37:28.360 fossil fuels

00:37:29.380 and, you know,

00:37:30.080 petrochemicals,

00:37:30.800 particularly oil and gas

00:37:31.840 since it doesn't come from coal.

00:37:33.340 You know,

00:37:34.340 that we were going to

00:37:34.860 somehow stop using

00:37:35.700 oil and gas

00:37:36.420 and fertilizer

00:37:37.040 and all the other things

00:37:37.940 that come out

00:37:38.300 of the petrochemical industry

00:37:39.380 and that's just ridiculous

00:37:41.500 and it ended up

00:37:43.760 with this,

00:37:44.620 you know,

00:37:44.880 because the intentions,

00:37:46.420 the intentions

00:37:47.680 were not actually

00:37:48.980 to deal with

00:37:49.660 the plastic issue,

00:37:51.200 the problems

00:37:52.100 with plastic

00:37:52.680 because if they were,

00:37:54.300 people would have focused

00:37:55.160 on expanding

00:37:56.540 landfills

00:37:57.940 and recycling

00:37:58.620 to poor countries

00:37:59.500 and that's not

00:38:00.000 what their goal has been.

00:38:00.720 Their goal has been

00:38:01.220 to try to get us

00:38:01.840 to use basically

00:38:03.360 to not consume

00:38:04.160 as much

00:38:04.620 or consume

00:38:05.200 some more primitive

00:38:06.280 form of material.

00:38:08.100 I am just now

00:38:08.860 understanding that

00:38:09.800 like where plastic

00:38:10.960 comes from,

00:38:11.600 I did not know

00:38:12.340 that it was a byproduct

00:38:13.400 of fossil fuels,

00:38:14.860 that it was a,

00:38:15.780 that it was waste product

00:38:17.560 from something

00:38:18.320 we're already using.

00:38:19.640 Yeah,

00:38:19.800 I mean,

00:38:20.020 it's like,

00:38:20.620 remember when,

00:38:21.560 when we were,

00:38:22.480 I think you and I

00:38:23.920 are around the same generation,

00:38:25.300 when we were kids

00:38:26.880 and we learned

00:38:27.360 about the Indians

00:38:28.200 and when they would

00:38:28.820 eat the buffalo,

00:38:29.620 they would use

00:38:30.020 all the parts

00:38:30.480 of the buffalo

00:38:30.980 and how that was

00:38:32.140 a good thing

00:38:32.880 and yeah,

00:38:33.880 I mean,

00:38:34.080 basically plastics

00:38:35.000 are using

00:38:35.560 the entire

00:38:36.260 petrochemical buffalo,

00:38:38.340 so to speak.

00:38:39.880 And people are,

00:38:40.360 you know,

00:38:40.600 environmentalists

00:38:41.280 and progressives

00:38:41.860 are like horrified

00:38:42.660 when you talk

00:38:43.160 about it that way

00:38:43.940 because they think

00:38:45.300 that oil and gas

00:38:46.400 are not natural,

00:38:48.600 which of course

00:38:49.740 is just absurd

00:38:50.780 because if you think

00:38:51.800 they're fossil fuels

00:38:52.600 and again,

00:38:53.100 the Russians don't,

00:38:53.840 but either way,

00:38:55.180 they come from

00:38:55.680 Mother Earth,

00:38:56.380 you know,

00:38:57.340 and so if you're

00:38:58.380 going to be using

00:38:59.160 these products

00:38:59.940 from Mother Earth,

00:39:01.300 then you would want

00:39:01.860 to use their byproducts

00:39:03.060 as efficiently

00:39:03.640 as well as you could.

00:39:06.600 So I take it then

00:39:08.640 you're not in favor

00:39:09.920 of the Green New Deal

00:39:10.860 because we are told

00:39:13.080 by AOC that,

00:39:14.520 and just to bring

00:39:15.520 people up to speed,

00:39:16.400 she wants the elimination

00:39:18.880 of all fossil fuel energy,

00:39:20.780 including natural gas.

00:39:22.220 She definitely does not

00:39:23.120 want nuclear energy.

00:39:24.820 She wants to eliminate,

00:39:25.880 as I mentioned,

00:39:26.240 99% of cars.

00:39:27.880 She wants to gut

00:39:28.400 and rebuild every building

00:39:29.240 in America

00:39:29.640 to be retrofitted

00:39:30.540 with state-of-the-art

00:39:31.380 energy efficiency.

00:39:32.500 She wants to eliminate

00:39:33.160 air travel,

00:39:34.460 build high-speed rails.

00:39:36.160 She wants a government-guaranteed job,

00:39:38.600 vacations, paid leave,

00:39:39.740 and other benefits

00:39:41.680 for everybody.

00:39:42.940 Free education for life

00:39:44.020 and no more meat.

00:39:45.180 Meat gets banned too.

00:39:46.940 So she wants to get rid of,

00:39:50.060 which we're about to get to,

00:39:51.040 your favorite source of energy,

00:39:52.520 which is nuclear power plants,

00:39:53.860 and do all of that

00:39:55.880 with the wind turbines

00:39:57.040 and the solar panels.

00:39:58.860 Yeah.

00:39:59.900 And you can kind of hear it

00:40:01.160 when you describe it

00:40:01.840 the way you described it.

00:40:02.800 I mean, she's basically

00:40:03.480 wanting to stop civilization,

00:40:06.400 right?

00:40:06.760 So you kind of go,

00:40:08.140 she wants us to stop

00:40:09.840 using the things

00:40:11.060 that made civilization possible

00:40:12.780 and that make it possible.

00:40:13.900 and that's having

00:40:15.960 energy-dense

00:40:17.080 energy sources

00:40:18.980 that allow for us

00:40:19.780 to have cities

00:40:20.520 because, you know,

00:40:21.860 we had renewable-powered cities

00:40:23.180 for a while,

00:40:24.060 horses and carriages,

00:40:25.280 and there was so much manure

00:40:26.760 that literally New York,

00:40:29.180 before the invention

00:40:29.880 of the internal combustion engine,

00:40:31.260 was like unlivable.

00:40:32.420 There was so much flies

00:40:33.840 and disease

00:40:34.420 and it smelled horribly.

00:40:37.440 So, yeah, I mean,

00:40:38.980 and then this thing around meat,

00:40:40.640 you know,

00:40:41.220 as I point out in my book,

00:40:42.840 if you go vegetarian,

00:40:44.580 you reduce your personal emissions

00:40:45.860 somewhere between

00:40:46.540 2% and 4%.

00:40:47.420 It's, like, irrelevant

00:40:48.680 from a climate change perspective.

00:40:51.360 And what really matters

00:40:52.680 is just eating meat

00:40:54.060 more efficiently

00:40:54.600 using, you know,

00:40:56.420 concentrating cattle

00:40:57.400 on smaller areas of land.

00:41:00.240 The Green New Deal,

00:41:01.580 as you know,

00:41:02.180 has evolved into Biden's,

00:41:04.240 Biden has broken it

00:41:05.300 into his infrastructure bill,

00:41:07.120 which is currently

00:41:07.720 considered in Congress

00:41:08.960 and then also into his budget.

00:41:11.120 It's basically evolved

00:41:12.560 into just, yeah,

00:41:13.600 giving a lot of money

00:41:14.360 to guys to retrofit homes

00:41:16.100 for really marginal.

00:41:18.440 Because our home,

00:41:19.140 the truth is,

00:41:19.560 our homes are much more

00:41:20.340 energy efficient today

00:41:21.220 than they've ever been.

00:41:23.200 And, you know,

00:41:23.860 Obama did a bunch of money

00:41:25.160 on energy efficiency

00:41:26.520 as part of that legislation

00:41:28.160 I hope to advocate for

00:41:29.300 in 2009.

00:41:31.260 And they studied it.

00:41:33.020 University of Chicago,

00:41:33.880 in fact,

00:41:34.200 one of Obama's top economists

00:41:35.400 studied the results

00:41:36.360 of the program

00:41:36.920 and they discovered

00:41:37.480 that it was terribly

00:41:38.860 cost inefficient.

00:41:39.860 It did not pay for itself.

00:41:42.820 That was the idea.

00:41:44.760 And now they're basically

00:41:45.820 proposing to build

00:41:46.680 a lot of transmission lines

00:41:47.900 through some beautiful

00:41:49.180 country areas

00:41:50.520 in the United States,

00:41:51.380 but also through

00:41:52.180 some critical habitat

00:41:53.820 for endangered species,

00:41:55.300 you know,

00:41:56.240 where the whooping crane

00:41:57.200 is potentially threatened.

00:41:58.440 They just gave a permit

00:41:59.360 to wind developers

00:42:00.340 to kill the California condor,

00:42:02.140 which is crazy

00:42:03.520 because it was one of our

00:42:04.560 most special

00:42:05.840 endangered species.

00:42:06.760 So it really

00:42:08.840 they just renamed it,

00:42:10.660 you know,

00:42:10.820 because Green New Deal

00:42:11.820 was such an unpopular name

00:42:13.580 and now it's just

00:42:14.320 the Biden infrastructure bill

00:42:16.340 and budget.

00:42:18.760 So and just to put

00:42:20.720 a point on that,

00:42:21.540 they can avoid

00:42:22.400 they can avoid

00:42:23.380 doing those things

00:42:24.220 and killing the condor

00:42:25.120 and all this

00:42:25.620 if they if they

00:42:26.920 reconsider nuclear power,

00:42:28.720 which is my next point.

00:42:29.820 But before we get to that,

00:42:31.220 can you just tell us

00:42:32.320 the promised land?

00:42:34.380 OK, we're going to

00:42:35.220 we're going to reduce

00:42:36.020 the emissions

00:42:36.820 and we're going to go

00:42:37.700 all renewable

00:42:38.500 and energy efficiency only.

00:42:40.600 You know, we're going

00:42:40.860 to turn down the thermostat

00:42:41.880 and do all renewable energy

00:42:44.240 with the wind and so on.

00:42:46.400 Vermont, AOC's buddy,

00:42:48.400 Bernie Sanders,

00:42:49.620 Vermont tried this.

00:42:51.000 Vermont said,

00:42:51.800 that's us.

00:42:52.920 We're we're green.

00:42:54.420 We're we're a blue state

00:42:55.880 and with a green attitude.

00:42:57.480 And what happened?

00:42:59.740 Well, yeah, I mean,

00:43:00.660 Vermont, I point out in the book,

00:43:02.040 you know, Vermont promised

00:43:02.940 to reduce its emissions 16 percent.

00:43:04.940 They went up 24 percent.

00:43:07.000 A big part of the reason why

00:43:08.280 is that the climate activists,

00:43:10.200 including one of the most famous

00:43:11.280 environmentalists

00:43:11.940 in the United States,

00:43:12.700 Bill McKibben,

00:43:14.220 advocated for the closure

00:43:15.560 of the nuclear plants.

00:43:16.980 It was mostly replaced

00:43:17.800 by natural gas

00:43:18.820 since that's what's available

00:43:20.580 and emissions went up.

00:43:23.700 So, yeah, I mean,

00:43:24.800 nuclear.

00:43:27.740 Is 20 percent

00:43:29.780 of our electricity,

00:43:30.500 it's over half

00:43:31.480 of all of our carbon

00:43:32.320 free electricity,

00:43:33.280 and yet the people

00:43:34.140 that say they care

00:43:34.820 so much about climate change

00:43:35.800 are the ones working

00:43:36.440 to shut it down.

00:43:38.040 You know, we're about

00:43:38.560 to shut down

00:43:39.160 in the last

00:43:40.020 the second of two reactors

00:43:41.400 at a nuclear plant

00:43:42.180 in New York

00:43:42.900 called Indian Point.

00:43:44.580 The California governor

00:43:45.500 has personally fought

00:43:47.360 to shut down

00:43:48.060 our last nuclear plant,

00:43:49.360 even though

00:43:50.760 California

00:43:52.100 had has had blackouts

00:43:53.800 for the last three years.

00:43:56.280 We had power outages

00:43:58.320 last summer

00:43:58.980 because we didn't

00:43:59.720 have enough power.

00:44:00.660 It wasn't that complicated.

00:44:02.680 And the person

00:44:03.820 that was in charge

00:44:04.900 of running

00:44:05.220 the electricity grid

00:44:06.280 said,

00:44:08.200 he said,

00:44:08.640 I warned against this.

00:44:09.900 This is what happens

00:44:10.560 when you shut down

00:44:11.380 your nuclear plant

00:44:13.000 and you don't

00:44:14.380 and you imagine

00:44:16.380 that you can just

00:44:17.120 power your country

00:44:18.120 or your state

00:44:18.860 on solar.

00:44:20.700 You know,

00:44:20.900 California,

00:44:21.400 we've done so much solar

00:44:22.400 more than any other state.

00:44:23.520 but it,

00:44:26.300 you know,

00:44:26.560 it turns out

00:44:27.200 solar panels

00:44:27.820 don't work at night

00:44:28.720 and they don't work

00:44:30.580 when the sun

00:44:31.660 is going down,

00:44:32.740 which happens

00:44:33.500 to be the exact

00:44:34.400 same time

00:44:34.920 that people

00:44:35.220 are coming home

00:44:35.680 to work

00:44:36.080 and at least

00:44:37.260 like in our house

00:44:38.080 turning on

00:44:38.520 every single light

00:44:39.540 and turning on

00:44:40.480 the television

00:44:40.920 and the radio

00:44:41.380 at the same time.

00:44:42.260 And, you know,

00:44:42.640 so power demand

00:44:44.060 goes up

00:44:44.720 at the moment

00:44:45.160 that the sun

00:44:45.640 goes down

00:44:46.260 and at those moments

00:44:47.480 you need to have

00:44:48.040 reliable sources

00:44:48.780 of electricity.

00:44:49.380 So there is something

00:44:51.380 really about,

00:44:54.000 I mean,

00:44:54.320 there is,

00:44:54.900 I mean,

00:44:55.060 I'm writing a new book

00:44:55.860 on the so-called

00:44:57.060 homeless crisis,

00:44:58.040 but there is something

00:44:58.840 about progressives

00:44:59.840 where in the name

00:45:01.180 of progress,

00:45:02.500 you know,

00:45:02.780 they're often trying

00:45:03.580 to undermine

00:45:05.500 the sources

00:45:07.120 of so much

00:45:07.780 of that progress.

00:45:10.280 So let's talk

00:45:10.840 about nuclear power

00:45:11.620 because as you say,

00:45:12.960 I think we're

00:45:13.660 around the same generation.

00:45:14.920 I was born in 1970

00:45:16.380 and growing up

00:45:17.640 in the 1970s,

00:45:19.560 there,

00:45:20.120 this is what I remember

00:45:21.140 about nuclear.

00:45:22.380 There was a scare

00:45:24.060 in New York

00:45:25.140 where I'm from,

00:45:26.180 New York State,

00:45:27.140 well, nearby,

00:45:27.680 I was in Pennsylvania,

00:45:28.600 but it was the same news,

00:45:29.880 you know,

00:45:30.260 I was subjected

00:45:31.200 to the news cycle

00:45:31.940 at Three Mile Island

00:45:33.160 where there was almost,

00:45:36.060 there was an incident.

00:45:37.600 I was like one

00:45:38.180 of the nuclear reactors.

00:45:39.380 It didn't melt down,

00:45:40.920 but they had a problem

00:45:42.320 with it.

00:45:42.680 There was an incident

00:45:43.300 where everybody thought

00:45:43.980 they're going to get radiation.

00:45:45.700 And then,

00:45:47.020 my old pal,

00:45:48.320 Jane Fonda,

00:45:50.200 who coincidentally,

00:45:52.100 like,

00:45:52.860 I just in researching this

00:45:54.420 before you came on,

00:45:55.900 her movie was released

00:45:57.340 like a week before

00:45:58.780 Three Mile Island happened.

00:46:01.180 She has been this lifelong

00:46:02.780 green activist,

00:46:04.320 and she's against nuclear power,

00:46:06.840 and she released this movie

00:46:08.660 for which she later won

00:46:09.520 an Academy Award

00:46:10.360 called The China Syndrome,

00:46:12.160 which is a play on words

00:46:13.000 saying, like,

00:46:13.500 if a nuclear reactor melts,

00:46:15.360 it's going to go

00:46:15.900 into the ground

00:46:16.520 through to China.

00:46:18.220 And it's a very scary,

00:46:20.040 good movie,

00:46:21.020 but it's not really

00:46:22.260 based in reality.

00:46:23.840 But, you know,

00:46:24.420 in the same way

00:46:25.080 Jaws ruined the ocean

00:46:26.280 for millions of Americans,

00:46:28.380 this movie helped ruin

00:46:30.720 the reputation of nukes

00:46:32.340 for millions of Americans.

00:46:33.680 We have a clip from it here.

00:46:35.180 Listen.

00:46:36.220 Operation.

00:46:37.320 This is Jack Adele.

00:46:38.400 We have a serious condition.

00:46:39.660 You get everybody

00:46:40.160 into safety areas

00:46:40.980 and make sure

00:46:41.700 that they stay there.

00:46:44.420 All personnel

00:46:45.080 will see directly

00:46:45.920 to safety areas.

00:46:47.040 Caution.

00:46:47.800 Code 6.

00:46:48.580 This is not a drill.

00:46:49.820 It's a stuck valve

00:46:50.680 of some sort.

00:46:51.440 Wait a minute.

00:46:51.980 How do you know

00:46:52.680 it's a stuck valve?

00:46:53.920 Because I was up there

00:46:54.780 last night looking for you,

00:46:55.960 and I talked to that man,

00:46:57.240 Jack Adele.

00:46:58.400 He told me

00:46:59.100 it was a stuck valve.

00:47:00.360 If that's true,

00:47:01.300 then we came very close

00:47:02.500 to the China Syndrome.

00:47:04.340 The what?

00:47:04.920 If the core is exposed,

00:47:07.160 for whatever reason,

00:47:08.400 the fuel heats

00:47:09.120 beyond core heat tolerance

00:47:10.620 in a matter of minutes.

00:47:12.220 Nothing can stop it,

00:47:13.880 and it melts

00:47:14.500 right down through

00:47:15.640 the bottom of the plant,

00:47:17.060 theoretically,

00:47:17.760 to China.

00:47:18.420 But of course,

00:47:18.940 as soon as it hits

00:47:19.580 groundwater,

00:47:20.300 it blasts into the atmosphere

00:47:21.720 and sends out

00:47:22.460 clouds of radioactivity.

00:47:24.340 The number of people killed

00:47:25.560 would depend on

00:47:26.440 which way the wind is blowing.

00:47:28.180 Render an area

00:47:28.840 the size of Pennsylvania

00:47:30.000 permanently uninhabitable,

00:47:31.620 not to mention

00:47:32.300 the cancer

00:47:32.840 that would show up later.

00:47:34.920 It's scary.

00:47:36.060 And then, of course,

00:47:36.520 you have Chernobyl,

00:47:37.760 which didn't help either.

00:47:38.920 So I think some of these things

00:47:40.120 are why people say,

00:47:41.240 like, nukes.

00:47:42.880 And I know you've written

00:47:43.440 about how moms

00:47:44.580 and women in particular,

00:47:45.920 they've spent a lot of money

00:47:47.040 trying to gin up our fears,

00:47:48.440 those who oppose

00:47:49.220 this method of energy.

00:47:51.000 Yeah, absolutely.

00:47:51.880 And yeah,

00:47:52.880 so yeah,

00:47:53.280 you and I are both

00:47:54.040 of the same generation

00:47:55.480 and we grew,

00:47:56.320 this is,

00:47:56.740 you know,

00:47:56.920 we were really

00:47:57.560 born into a period

00:47:59.340 of significant fear

00:48:00.740 of nuclear.

00:48:01.420 And it really goes

00:48:02.960 back to the bomb.

00:48:04.100 I mean,

00:48:04.320 it's impossible

00:48:05.020 to understand

00:48:05.880 people's fears

00:48:06.700 outside of that

00:48:08.900 so that even

00:48:09.500 when people raise

00:48:10.320 concerns about

00:48:10.820 nuclear energy,

00:48:11.560 when you really

00:48:12.220 listen to what

00:48:12.860 they're saying,

00:48:14.260 what they're really

00:48:14.860 raising concerns

00:48:15.680 about is the bomb.

00:48:16.880 You know,

00:48:17.060 like the stuff

00:48:17.420 around the waste

00:48:18.280 or the radiation

00:48:19.560 or even the way

00:48:20.400 we respond to accidents.

00:48:22.900 I mean,

00:48:23.240 I thought that

00:48:24.740 when there was

00:48:25.300 a meltdown

00:48:25.960 or an accident

00:48:26.620 on a nuclear plant,

00:48:27.460 it was the same thing

00:48:28.740 as a bomb going off.

00:48:30.040 And since there's

00:48:32.140 radiation involved,

00:48:33.960 you know,

00:48:34.120 there was no sense

00:48:34.900 of,

00:48:36.320 I had no sense

00:48:37.040 of it as a child.

00:48:39.100 So I think that

00:48:40.340 even when you get

00:48:40.960 to something

00:48:41.260 like China Syndrome,

00:48:42.360 the Zhang Fonda film

00:48:43.160 in 1979,

00:48:45.100 which came out

00:48:46.300 about a week

00:48:46.860 before the

00:48:48.300 partial meltdown

00:48:50.140 of one of the reactors

00:48:51.220 of Three Mile Island

00:48:52.060 nuclear plant

00:48:52.660 in Pennsylvania,

00:48:54.280 that already

00:48:55.020 we were so

00:48:56.020 freaked out

00:48:56.900 and understandably

00:48:57.900 about nuclear weapons

00:48:59.260 because nuclear weapons

00:49:00.460 really are scary.

00:49:02.880 What they can do

00:49:03.840 really is scary.

00:49:05.760 It really is

00:49:06.780 a different,

00:49:08.000 a revolutionary

00:49:08.700 technology

00:49:09.600 and its power

00:49:10.480 that I don't think

00:49:11.900 we've ever

00:49:12.300 completely come to

00:49:13.360 grips with

00:49:15.360 psychologically

00:49:16.040 or spiritually

00:49:16.880 in some ways

00:49:17.600 because of the power

00:49:18.400 they give us.

00:49:20.000 And so,

00:49:21.040 you know,

00:49:21.380 you get to like,

00:49:22.720 I mean,

00:49:22.900 when we're in the 1980s

00:49:24.380 and Chernobyl happens,

00:49:25.860 you know,

00:49:26.140 Reagan

00:49:26.440 and the Soviet Union

00:49:28.220 are having

00:49:29.760 a, you know,

00:49:30.520 a major verbal conflict.

00:49:32.260 So I think

00:49:32.840 the only way

00:49:33.240 to really understand

00:49:33.960 those fears,

00:49:35.500 you know,

00:49:36.480 is around

00:49:37.040 the weapons.

00:49:38.000 And in fact,

00:49:38.460 I think even

00:49:38.840 when you look

00:49:39.220 politically,

00:49:41.080 Republicans always

00:49:41.900 were more comfortable

00:49:42.700 with nuclear energy,

00:49:43.700 I think,

00:49:44.180 because they were

00:49:44.640 more comfortable

00:49:45.240 with nuclear weapons.

00:49:48.300 And Democrats

00:49:49.260 and progressives

00:49:50.000 were less comfortable

00:49:50.860 with nuclear power plants

00:49:52.580 because they

00:49:54.120 associated them

00:49:55.280 more with nuclear weapons.

00:49:57.140 You know,

00:49:57.480 it's complicated

00:49:58.260 because,

00:49:58.740 you know,

00:49:58.900 Al Gore's father

00:50:00.180 was a huge advocate

00:50:01.900 of nuclear power.

00:50:03.980 Al Gore Jr.,

00:50:05.780 the Al Gore we all know,

00:50:07.640 turned against nuclear power.

00:50:09.340 So there was also

00:50:09.920 a change in the 60s

00:50:11.580 that had to do

00:50:12.500 with kind of a sense

00:50:14.520 that like the technology,

00:50:15.980 that technology

00:50:16.720 and human progress

00:50:17.560 had just gone too far.

00:50:19.320 You know,

00:50:19.960 and that really

00:50:20.520 we had sort of,

00:50:21.880 we needed to kind of

00:50:22.820 go back

00:50:23.500 to some earlier period

00:50:25.240 before all this

00:50:26.220 terrible industrialization,

00:50:29.420 you know,

00:50:30.280 somewhere before

00:50:31.120 fossil fuels even.

00:50:33.540 And I think

00:50:33.860 that's why you get

00:50:34.960 this kind of flight

00:50:36.280 or retreat

00:50:37.440 from nuclear

00:50:38.260 towards,

00:50:39.200 not just back

00:50:39.800 towards fossil fuels,

00:50:40.720 but also back

00:50:41.360 all the way

00:50:41.760 towards renewables.

00:50:43.420 So why shouldn't

00:50:44.120 people worry about

00:50:45.080 a Chernobyl-type

00:50:46.380 meltdown happening

00:50:47.600 in their state

00:50:49.240 if we decide

00:50:50.160 to lean into

00:50:50.880 nuclear power?

00:50:51.560 Yeah,

00:50:52.560 so I mean,

00:50:53.240 the main reason

00:50:53.800 they shouldn't

00:50:54.260 is because

00:50:54.800 it turns out

00:50:55.360 that Chernobyl

00:50:55.960 wasn't that bad.

00:50:57.380 I mean,

00:50:57.600 it sort of sounds

00:50:58.360 funny to say it,

00:50:59.380 but I mean,

00:50:59.780 for me,

00:51:00.680 you know,

00:51:01.080 after I saw

00:51:02.300 the damage

00:51:03.000 that was being

00:51:03.560 caused by big

00:51:04.740 solar farms

00:51:05.680 and wind farms,

00:51:06.640 which require

00:51:07.140 300 times more land

00:51:08.420 than a nuclear plant,

00:51:10.140 a bunch of my friends

00:51:10.880 were like,

00:51:11.240 hey,

00:51:11.380 you really ought to

00:51:11.880 just go take

00:51:12.300 a second look

00:51:12.780 at nuclear

00:51:13.300 because it's really

00:51:14.000 not what you think.

00:51:14.900 I looked at it.

00:51:15.680 The first thing I did

00:51:16.380 is I read the reports

00:51:17.460 on Chernobyl

00:51:18.480 and it was

00:51:19.760 sort of shocking

00:51:20.520 how few people

00:51:21.620 died and will die

00:51:23.100 from the radiation

00:51:23.940 that escaped.

00:51:25.420 And then you start

00:51:26.000 to learn more

00:51:26.520 about radiation

00:51:27.260 in general

00:51:27.980 and it turns out

00:51:28.860 radiation is this

00:51:30.020 thing we've been

00:51:30.800 studying for 120 years.

00:51:33.200 You know,

00:51:33.480 Marie Curie,

00:51:34.340 the great Nobel Prize

00:51:35.420 winning scientist

00:51:36.760 and her husband,

00:51:38.380 they were studying

00:51:39.140 radiation in the

00:51:40.180 early 1900s,

00:51:42.080 including the damage

00:51:44.220 to themselves

00:51:44.920 of too much

00:51:46.000 radiation exposure.

00:51:46.940 So we have,

00:51:48.120 and then there's

00:51:48.540 Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

00:51:49.880 We would measure

00:51:50.720 where were people

00:51:52.040 at the time

00:51:52.660 of the blast,

00:51:53.600 like how far

00:51:54.280 were they

00:51:54.660 from the blast

00:51:55.360 and we have

00:51:55.700 these like

00:51:56.020 really precise

00:51:57.380 and now with

00:51:58.420 hospital CT scans

00:51:59.860 and x-rays

00:52:00.380 and all these things

00:52:00.880 and then Chernobyl

00:52:02.620 and Fukushima

00:52:03.320 and all these accidents,

00:52:04.320 you have all this data

00:52:05.380 of how much radiation

00:52:06.460 is dangerous

00:52:07.060 and so we know

00:52:08.740 that the amounts

00:52:10.000 of radiation

00:52:10.580 that people are exposed

00:52:11.400 to even during

00:52:12.160 really bad accidents

00:52:13.200 like Chernobyl,

00:52:14.160 which the likelihood

00:52:14.880 of happening again

00:52:15.540 are very,

00:52:15.960 very low,

00:52:16.320 but even if it did,

00:52:18.100 it's just not

00:52:18.680 that much radiation

00:52:19.520 and so,

00:52:20.780 you know,

00:52:20.940 I'm from Colorado,

00:52:22.100 we have much higher

00:52:23.480 radiation than other states

00:52:24.780 mostly because of

00:52:25.800 the uranium

00:52:26.680 and the granite

00:52:27.640 and also being

00:52:28.700 at higher altitudes

00:52:30.020 means you're exposed

00:52:30.680 to more atmospheric radiation

00:52:31.980 but we have

00:52:33.020 significantly higher

00:52:33.940 radiation levels

00:52:34.880 than other states

00:52:35.920 but we have lower

00:52:36.600 rates of cancer

00:52:37.400 and lower rates

00:52:38.460 and longer life expectancy

00:52:41.320 probably associated

00:52:42.920 with the culture

00:52:43.600 of exercise

00:52:44.220 that exists in Colorado

00:52:45.340 but nonetheless,

00:52:47.220 if radiation

00:52:47.840 were this super potent toxin

00:52:49.220 you would see it

00:52:50.060 in other ways

00:52:51.440 where we don't

00:52:52.080 and what we see

00:52:52.860 is that

00:52:53.360 in fact,

00:52:54.240 people can be exposed

00:52:55.020 to even pretty high levels

00:52:56.160 of radiation

00:52:56.780 like the guys

00:52:57.520 who helped build the bomb

00:52:58.560 in 1945

00:53:00.160 which ended World War II

00:53:01.460 literally like had plutonium

00:53:03.920 that was in their bodies

00:53:05.260 and would be in their bodies

00:53:06.560 until they died

00:53:07.340 and some of them died

00:53:08.120 with these extremely

00:53:09.120 high levels of plutonium

00:53:10.520 so it's just not

00:53:12.500 the kind of

00:53:13.500 there's a supernatural

00:53:14.580 I think

00:53:15.980 sense around radiation

00:53:17.460 people say things like

00:53:18.840 well we don't really know

00:53:20.500 what could happen

00:53:21.900 but that's ridiculous

00:53:22.980 like we actually have

00:53:23.900 a really

00:53:24.300 we really have

00:53:25.600 very good science

00:53:26.940 of what happens

00:53:27.720 at different levels

00:53:28.400 of radiation exposure

00:53:29.240 I mean you go to the hospital

00:53:30.200 you have a whole class

00:53:31.820 of employees

00:53:32.420 that know how much

00:53:33.200 radiation is safe

00:53:34.060 and how much is dangerous

00:53:34.860 it's part of their jobs

00:53:35.700 now first of all

00:53:37.400 finding out that

00:53:38.420 you're from Colorado

00:53:39.140 and what you said

00:53:40.080 about the mountains

00:53:40.560 this is the first time

00:53:41.180 I'm understanding

00:53:41.820 your blasé attitude

00:53:42.740 toward two feet up

00:53:43.920 in the oceans

00:53:44.420 okay

00:53:45.220 now it makes more sense

00:53:47.020 there you go

00:53:47.860 onto you Michael

00:53:49.240 okay so that's

00:53:50.720 getting over

00:53:51.420 sort of the

00:53:52.040 biggest fears

00:53:53.000 and sort of

00:53:53.940 I don't know

00:53:54.260 concerns about radiation

00:53:55.200 or the nuclear plants

00:53:56.400 can you

00:53:56.900 can you spend a minute

00:53:58.120 talking about

00:53:58.920 why you like it

00:54:00.480 because I saw your TED talk

00:54:01.560 where you talked about

00:54:02.360 you had the Rubik's Cube

00:54:03.620 and I thought

00:54:04.120 that was a very powerful point

00:54:05.460 so could you just talk

00:54:06.740 about why you like it

00:54:07.840 why you think

00:54:08.180 it's the best source

00:54:09.120 yeah

00:54:10.160 well let me

00:54:11.380 I'll give you

00:54:12.100 the Rubik's Cube answer

00:54:13.420 so I held up

00:54:14.040 this Rubik's Cube

00:54:14.900 and just said

00:54:15.640 you know

00:54:15.880 this amount of uranium

00:54:16.940 can provide me

00:54:18.640 with all the power

00:54:19.260 I need

00:54:19.760 for my entire life

00:54:20.820 including all

00:54:21.440 of my ridiculous

00:54:22.160 jet travel

00:54:23.040 that those of us

00:54:23.840 in the rich world do

00:54:24.760 which is the biggest

00:54:25.400 source of our energy

00:54:26.200 and carbon emissions

00:54:27.180 you know

00:54:28.220 it's a tiny amount

00:54:29.000 of matter

00:54:30.000 which as an environmentalist

00:54:31.200 if you're worried

00:54:32.000 about natural resources

00:54:32.900 you don't want

00:54:34.300 to use a lot

00:54:35.060 of natural resource

00:54:36.040 you want to use

00:54:36.580 a little bit

00:54:37.200 so a tiny amount

00:54:39.060 of matter

00:54:39.520 can produce

00:54:40.120 a huge quantity

00:54:41.020 of energy

00:54:41.460 and by the way

00:54:41.980 when people worry

00:54:42.520 about the waste

00:54:43.220 the waste byproduct

00:54:44.600 is the exact same

00:54:45.900 Rubik's Cube

00:54:46.820 amount of uranium

00:54:47.560 that comes out

00:54:48.340 of the power plant

00:54:49.060 at the end

00:54:49.520 of the process

00:54:49.960 so it's the

00:54:51.540 it's energy density

00:54:52.640 is really the

00:54:53.780 is the keys

00:54:54.700 to understanding

00:54:55.360 everything

00:54:55.840 about energy

00:54:56.700 and the environment

00:54:57.280 so if you

00:54:57.840 if you have a high

00:54:58.640 energy dense

00:54:59.420 or what we call

00:55:00.240 power dense

00:55:00.900 electricity dense

00:55:01.880 power plant

00:55:03.020 then it means

00:55:03.980 it's not requiring

00:55:05.020 a lot of land

00:55:05.900 it's not requiring

00:55:06.560 a lot of natural resource

00:55:07.660 so the reason

00:55:08.980 that nuclear plants

00:55:09.800 require a quarter

00:55:11.160 of one percent

00:55:11.980 of the land

00:55:12.760 of a wind farm

00:55:13.480 or a solar farm

00:55:14.800 is just because

00:55:15.580 the you know

00:55:16.860 the the energy

00:55:17.640 coming out

00:55:18.080 of that amount

00:55:18.480 of uranium

00:55:18.940 when the

00:55:19.740 when the atoms

00:55:20.440 are splitting apart

00:55:21.320 is so intense

00:55:22.740 and so hot

00:55:23.720 as opposed to like

00:55:25.020 you know

00:55:25.200 if I go outside

00:55:25.820 and stand in the sun

00:55:26.660 you know

00:55:27.940 if I stand in the sun

00:55:28.580 too long

00:55:28.920 I'll get a burn

00:55:29.540 but it's just

00:55:30.740 you can just tell

00:55:31.320 it's the amount

00:55:31.760 of energy

00:55:32.120 coming from that

00:55:32.760 source

00:55:33.040 so

00:55:33.380 wait let me

00:55:34.400 just jump in

00:55:34.880 so one

00:55:35.400 one quarter

00:55:36.420 of one percent

00:55:38.060 can you just

00:55:39.320 repeat that stat

00:55:40.180 it requires

00:55:40.860 yeah

00:55:41.240 yeah or let me say

00:55:43.020 I'll say it slightly

00:55:43.980 more

00:55:44.420 it takes 400 times

00:55:46.360 more land

00:55:47.000 on average

00:55:47.840 to generate

00:55:48.420 the same amount

00:55:48.980 of electricity

00:55:49.580 from a

00:55:50.540 from a

00:55:51.440 from a solar farm

00:55:52.720 or a wind farm

00:55:53.800 as it does

00:55:54.820 from a nuclear plant

00:55:56.020 and and that's

00:55:57.400 a function

00:55:57.700 of energy density

00:55:58.480 why do we not

00:56:00.120 want so much land

00:56:01.280 being used up

00:56:02.360 well we may not care

00:56:04.000 I mean some people

00:56:04.500 may not care

00:56:05.060 and I certainly

00:56:05.720 don't think there's

00:56:06.160 any kind of

00:56:07.240 rational reason

00:56:08.920 but it just means

00:56:09.740 that like for

00:56:10.320 endangered species

00:56:11.340 you know the species

00:56:13.080 that we all care

00:56:13.780 the most about

00:56:14.400 like the endangered

00:56:15.540 mountain gorillas

00:56:17.100 of central Africa

00:56:17.940 which are my favorite

00:56:18.900 endangered species

00:56:20.100 or the yellow-eyed

00:56:21.220 penguins of New Zealand

00:56:22.600 that really the main

00:56:24.720 threat to

00:56:25.880 endangered species

00:56:27.740 just comes from

00:56:28.860 us using more

00:56:30.180 of their land

00:56:30.880 more of the land

00:56:31.980 and so if you care

00:56:33.380 about biodiversity

00:56:34.260 and wildlife

00:56:35.480 and endangered species

00:56:36.920 then we should just

00:56:37.720 in general

00:56:38.480 be trying to use

00:56:39.320 less land

00:56:39.980 you know I mean

00:56:42.320 I'm right now

00:56:42.760 I'm in Palm Springs

00:56:43.880 and there's a lot

00:56:44.820 of solar and wind farms

00:56:45.700 going up here

00:56:46.280 and they're basically

00:56:47.340 taking up the habitat

00:56:48.500 that would be used

00:56:49.300 for the desert tortoise

00:56:50.360 which is an endangered

00:56:51.300 reptile

00:56:52.640 and I think part of

00:56:55.100 our you know

00:56:56.040 task for

00:56:56.980 you know

00:56:57.600 again reasons

00:56:58.660 I can't

00:56:59.260 I can't give you

00:56:59.840 a logical reason

00:57:00.560 it's more like

00:57:01.100 a spiritual

00:57:01.620 or a moral reason

00:57:02.620 why we should

00:57:03.480 as stewards

00:57:04.760 of the earth

00:57:05.300 you know

00:57:05.960 seek there to be

00:57:06.580 a little bit more

00:57:07.020 land for other species

00:57:08.200 but I would just say

00:57:10.080 one other thing Megan

00:57:10.620 in terms of

00:57:11.400 kind of why

00:57:12.320 I think nuclear

00:57:12.980 is special

00:57:13.680 and that's that

00:57:15.880 it's this

00:57:16.320 it is an extraordinary

00:57:17.540 power

00:57:18.340 and

00:57:19.060 I think it's

00:57:21.000 Spider-Man

00:57:21.620 they say

00:57:22.560 with great power

00:57:23.720 comes great responsibility

00:57:24.900 or maybe that's the Bible

00:57:27.000 I can never remember

00:57:27.660 I think it goes back

00:57:29.020 farther than that

00:57:30.100 might it might

00:57:30.800 you know

00:57:31.560 and so I go

00:57:32.140 there's a spiritual

00:57:32.880 issue here

00:57:34.160 which is that

00:57:34.920 you know

00:57:35.220 we have this power

00:57:36.120 to split the atom

00:57:36.980 and it's never

00:57:38.160 ever going to go away

00:57:39.340 because it came right out

00:57:40.600 of just experimenting

00:57:42.240 at laboratory levels

00:57:43.860 with physics

00:57:44.680 you know

00:57:45.000 as soon as they split the atom

00:57:45.880 as soon as you split the atom

00:57:47.100 and you know how to do it

00:57:48.340 then you have this

00:57:49.400 incredible responsibility

00:57:50.760 to make sure that

00:57:51.840 the technology

00:57:52.580 does not slip into

00:57:54.920 the hands of people

00:57:56.640 that would do bad things

00:57:57.580 with it

00:57:58.020 and so we have this

00:57:59.500 incredible system

00:58:01.000 globally

00:58:01.520 where the Russians

00:58:03.140 and the Chinese

00:58:03.940 and the Americans

00:58:04.500 we all work together

00:58:05.660 to make sure that

00:58:07.420 we don't let

00:58:08.700 people with

00:58:09.800 nuclear technologies

00:58:10.900 do dangerous things

00:58:12.920 with them

00:58:13.200 we keep a very close

00:58:14.400 eye on it

00:58:15.140 and in order to do

00:58:17.040 that work

00:58:18.340 you have to have

00:58:19.520 a community

00:58:20.400 of scientists

00:58:21.080 and technicians

00:58:21.800 and engineers

00:58:22.640 who are regularly

00:58:23.540 working with it

00:58:24.420 and the main way

00:58:25.080 that we do that

00:58:25.660 is with our

00:58:26.100 nuclear power plants

00:58:27.100 we also produce

00:58:28.360 kinds of medicines

00:58:29.800 with nuclear

00:58:30.620 but the main

00:58:31.280 the main thing

00:58:32.100 is nuclear power plants

00:58:33.340 and so you have

00:58:35.100 for me

00:58:35.900 something that I think

00:58:37.480 tests

00:58:38.260 humankind

00:58:39.420 our evolved

00:58:40.960 the evolution

00:58:41.740 of our consciousness

00:58:42.720 to use a really hippie

00:58:43.840 sounding word

00:58:44.500 it's sort of

00:58:45.900 our ability

00:58:46.520 to handle

00:58:47.100 a technology

00:58:48.120 that on the one hand

00:58:49.320 is really life

00:58:51.380 giving

00:58:52.220 really life affirming

00:58:53.820 it allows us

00:58:54.560 to have abundant energy

00:58:55.800 without using much

00:58:56.760 of God's creation

00:58:57.860 you know

00:58:58.500 to just slip into

00:58:59.280 some religious language

00:59:00.260 and to allow more

00:59:02.160 to allow ourselves

00:59:03.420 to be better stewards

00:59:04.560 of the earth

00:59:05.240 in all

00:59:05.980 in many respects

00:59:07.080 but that either way

00:59:09.620 is a responsibility

00:59:10.560 that we have

00:59:11.300 and that we should

00:59:11.980 we should make the most

00:59:12.880 of it

00:59:13.160 we should be responsible

00:59:13.940 for it

00:59:14.400 and that means

00:59:14.680 taking care of it

00:59:15.600 and using it wisely

00:59:16.720 and responsibly

00:59:17.460 not attempting

00:59:18.980 to get rid of it

00:59:20.340 in ways that we

00:59:21.400 simply can't

00:59:22.140 and I think is

00:59:22.680 a flight from

00:59:23.620 responsibility

00:59:24.160 rather than

00:59:25.020 unembracing

00:59:25.600 it's fascinating

00:59:27.540 you've definitely

00:59:28.440 given me a lot

00:59:28.900 to think about

00:59:29.380 I wasn't anti-nuclear

00:59:30.720 power but I

00:59:31.720 wasn't as pro

00:59:33.660 nuclear power

00:59:34.820 as I'm feeling

00:59:35.340 after having read

00:59:36.380 your stuff

00:59:36.740 and listening

00:59:37.180 to you here

00:59:38.100 and by the way

00:59:38.560 people should just

00:59:39.560 go on to YouTube

00:59:40.300 and listen to your

00:59:40.840 TED talks

00:59:41.280 because they're

00:59:42.300 really good

00:59:42.860 and you're

00:59:43.320 very good

00:59:43.840 at explaining

00:59:44.320 this stuff

00:59:44.840 which is not

00:59:45.780 true

00:59:46.340 of a lot

00:59:47.120 of people

00:59:47.480 in this field

00:59:48.220 can I ask you

00:59:49.960 though

00:59:50.100 is there something

00:59:50.660 that made the news

00:59:51.500 recently

00:59:51.880 and I saw you

00:59:52.580 speak out about it

00:59:53.240 but so we've got

00:59:54.220 a lot of

00:59:54.520 we have to do a lot

00:59:55.420 we have to think

00:59:55.880 about energy sources

00:59:57.060 and we have to be

00:59:57.620 realistic about

00:59:58.320 what our best options

00:59:59.340 are

00:59:59.680 and at the same

01:00:01.800 time understand

01:00:02.360 that you know

01:00:03.040 how people live

01:00:04.380 realistically

01:00:04.940 and everyone

01:00:06.580 wants to reduce

01:00:07.400 the carbon emissions

01:00:09.180 including as we

01:00:10.100 mentioned Bill Gates

01:00:10.800 and he is open

01:00:11.440 to nuclear technology

01:00:12.660 but he also

01:00:13.980 throws some stuff

01:00:14.940 out there

01:00:15.340 that you're like

01:00:15.980 wait what

01:00:16.660 and he's Bill Gates

01:00:17.680 so you give him

01:00:18.240 a little like

01:00:18.700 okay Bill Gates

01:00:19.680 is you know

01:00:20.280 got a lot of money

01:00:21.220 and I don't have

01:00:22.000 as much money

01:00:22.500 and so I'm just

01:00:23.540 gonna listen

01:00:23.980 but he said

01:00:25.740 something that

01:00:26.280 was so shocking

01:00:27.480 um I think a lot

01:00:29.860 of people in your

01:00:30.360 field are like

01:00:30.860 what is he saying

01:00:31.620 and he he said

01:00:32.340 perhaps he said

01:00:33.720 that we should

01:00:34.060 have a study

01:00:34.720 of how we might

01:00:36.520 dim the sun

01:00:37.760 that that would

01:00:39.400 aim to reflect

01:00:40.860 the sunlight

01:00:41.660 out of the earth's

01:00:42.920 atmosphere

01:00:43.380 thus triggering

01:00:45.060 a global

01:00:46.020 cooling reaction

01:00:47.480 and I saw you

01:00:49.060 responded to that

01:00:49.840 by saying

01:00:50.380 respectfully

01:00:51.420 that idea

01:00:52.440 is and I quote

01:00:53.680 bonkers

01:00:54.520 so why

01:00:56.560 don't you think

01:00:57.840 that will work

01:00:58.800 because if we could

01:00:59.460 just sort of

01:00:59.880 you know

01:01:00.440 spray

01:01:01.460 it's like that movie

01:01:02.400 where they talk

01:01:02.940 about that how the

01:01:03.560 dad always just wants

01:01:04.180 to spray everything

01:01:04.640 with Windex

01:01:05.200 why can't we just

01:01:06.800 use Bill Gates's

01:01:07.800 Windex on the sun

01:01:09.060 idea

01:01:09.380 and and avoid

01:01:10.780 any of these

01:01:11.240 problems

01:01:11.700 yeah

01:01:12.900 well this is a

01:01:14.080 real I mean

01:01:14.520 this was this

01:01:15.100 emerges

01:01:15.680 the idea for

01:01:17.820 this

01:01:18.260 of cooling the

01:01:19.860 planet

01:01:20.260 by spraying

01:01:22.000 there's a lot of

01:01:22.700 different mechanisms

01:01:23.380 but the main one

01:01:24.220 they talk about

01:01:24.680 is spraying

01:01:25.140 some sort of

01:01:26.180 material

01:01:27.240 either it's

01:01:28.180 usually sulfur

01:01:28.800 particles

01:01:29.580 or now they're

01:01:30.760 talking about

01:01:31.240 calcium carbonate

01:01:32.360 which is what

01:01:32.900 you know

01:01:33.160 shells are made

01:01:33.860 of

01:01:34.100 into the atmosphere

01:01:35.620 to cool the

01:01:36.320 earth

01:01:36.620 and and they

01:01:37.540 talked about this

01:01:38.240 as soon as

01:01:38.680 people started

01:01:39.060 worrying about

01:01:39.440 climate change

01:01:39.960 this was an

01:01:40.380 idea that

01:01:40.700 scientists

01:01:40.960 talked about

01:01:41.560 it was always

01:01:41.960 more of a

01:01:42.340 thought experiment

01:01:43.140 but now Bill

01:01:44.860 Gates is talking

01:01:45.360 about doing it

01:01:46.140 and I have

01:01:46.880 been a co-author

01:01:47.720 with one of

01:01:48.420 with the Harvard

01:01:49.040 professor that

01:01:50.140 wants to do

01:01:50.720 this I have

01:01:51.680 had I've

01:01:52.840 argued with him

01:01:53.480 privately

01:01:53.980 I was disturbed

01:01:56.800 to learn that

01:01:58.140 they were proceeding

01:01:58.800 with what they

01:01:59.360 call experiments

01:02:00.600 I think the first

01:02:02.120 thing to know

01:02:02.600 is that it's

01:02:03.040 dishonest

01:02:03.640 these are not

01:02:04.720 experiments that

01:02:05.580 will tell us

01:02:06.380 anything

01:02:07.080 anything important

01:02:08.460 at all about

01:02:09.720 whether or not

01:02:10.480 to cool the

01:02:11.080 earth

01:02:11.360 okay

01:02:11.780 because we

01:02:12.920 have no

01:02:13.520 idea

01:02:14.260 they can

01:02:15.700 I'm you know

01:02:16.260 it's just

01:02:16.800 you go back

01:02:17.720 to kind of

01:02:18.160 a more

01:02:18.540 basic common

01:02:19.960 sense

01:02:20.280 they have no

01:02:21.220 idea what

01:02:21.900 the effects

01:02:22.340 of cooling

01:02:22.820 the planet

01:02:23.260 will be

01:02:23.800 beyond cooling

01:02:24.660 the planet

01:02:25.120 they can't

01:02:26.120 predict what

01:02:27.000 will happen

01:02:27.380 to agriculture

01:02:28.380 to food

01:02:29.520 supplies

01:02:30.020 and I find

01:02:30.540 myself getting

01:02:31.040 I get I get

01:02:31.640 well the reason

01:02:32.360 I do have

01:02:33.000 some emotion

01:02:33.500 on this

01:02:34.060 is that

01:02:35.380 it's it's

01:02:35.980 gross

01:02:36.520 like it's

01:02:37.240 a growth

01:02:37.680 there's

01:02:37.960 something

01:02:38.380 I just

01:02:40.080 I have to

01:02:40.560 use the

01:02:40.860 word

01:02:41.100 it's just

01:02:41.400 something

01:02:41.640 unethical

01:02:42.340 and immoral

01:02:43.220 about somebody

01:02:44.260 deciding for

01:02:45.200 millions of

01:02:45.780 farmers around

01:02:46.480 the world

01:02:46.920 including the

01:02:47.520 poorest farmers

01:02:48.240 in the world

01:02:48.900 in places

01:02:49.540 like Africa

01:02:50.160 that literally

01:02:51.560 depend on the

01:02:52.380 weather in ways

01:02:52.960 that American

01:02:53.340 farmers don't

01:02:54.160 you know

01:02:54.460 because we have

01:02:54.860 irrigation

01:02:55.320 much

01:02:56.100 but to go

01:02:57.140 decide for

01:02:58.060 the world

01:02:58.580 that we're

01:02:58.940 going to

01:02:59.160 cool the

01:03:00.260 planet

01:03:00.580 deliberately

01:03:01.140 and the

01:03:01.800 unknown

01:03:02.560 impacts

01:03:03.080 on agriculture

01:03:03.820 I mean

01:03:04.160 it's appalling

01:03:04.840 and so

01:03:05.340 it's not

01:03:05.700 an experiment

01:03:06.220 at all

01:03:06.880 that will

01:03:07.580 tell us

01:03:07.860 anything useful

01:03:08.700 about whether

01:03:09.180 that's a good

01:03:09.600 idea

01:03:10.020 it's actually

01:03:11.860 designed as a

01:03:12.700 public relations

01:03:13.340 exercise to

01:03:14.260 normalize

01:03:15.260 and socialize

01:03:16.480 something that

01:03:16.940 should not be

01:03:17.640 normalized

01:03:18.160 there is no

01:03:20.000 way that you

01:03:21.120 could ever get

01:03:21.960 global agreement

01:03:22.880 on something like

01:03:23.780 this

01:03:24.220 I mean

01:03:25.060 first of all

01:03:25.680 you'd have to

01:03:26.280 get agreement

01:03:26.880 from every single

01:03:27.680 country in the

01:03:28.420 world

01:03:28.740 and even then

01:03:29.740 look our

01:03:30.640 system of

01:03:31.120 representative

01:03:31.480 democracy

01:03:32.080 isn't an

01:03:32.940 exact thing

01:03:34.040 right like

01:03:34.840 in the United

01:03:35.220 States right

01:03:35.500 now like

01:03:35.920 half of

01:03:36.420 everybody is

01:03:37.080 unhappy

01:03:37.640 at any

01:03:38.980 under any

01:03:39.480 president

01:03:40.140 right like

01:03:41.280 like and

01:03:42.520 so you're

01:03:43.160 sort of like

01:03:43.820 so we're

01:03:44.540 going to have

01:03:44.740 all the

01:03:44.960 countries of

01:03:45.420 the world

01:03:45.720 which suppose

01:03:46.300 by governments

01:03:46.980 that all

01:03:47.360 supposedly really

01:03:48.360 represent all

01:03:49.060 of its citizens

01:03:49.540 that are somehow

01:03:49.960 going to decide

01:03:50.500 on this

01:03:50.760 it's absurd

01:03:51.380 like it's

01:03:52.760 like the social

01:03:53.440 scientists that

01:03:54.200 have studied

01:03:54.640 this at

01:03:55.260 Oxford

01:03:55.800 and at

01:03:56.980 and you

01:03:58.180 know and

01:03:58.440 other in

01:03:58.900 Britain and

01:03:59.700 various

01:04:00.200 you know

01:04:00.760 people that

01:04:01.420 study it

01:04:01.920 they go

01:04:02.180 there's no

01:04:02.640 way that

01:04:03.120 you could

01:04:03.400 ever get

01:04:04.060 global

01:04:04.500 agreement

01:04:04.960 on this

01:04:05.520 so why

01:04:05.920 are we

01:04:06.220 even

01:04:06.540 talking

01:04:06.960 about

01:04:07.300 this

01:04:07.700 and the

01:04:08.480 response

01:04:08.900 has always

01:04:09.280 been

01:04:09.620 oh but

01:04:10.400 well there's

01:04:10.920 global warming

01:04:11.640 and humans

01:04:12.280 are causing

01:04:12.720 that

01:04:13.060 yeah but

01:04:13.440 it's a

01:04:13.820 byproduct

01:04:14.520 of our

01:04:16.520 success

01:04:17.120 of our

01:04:17.480 civilization

01:04:18.060 and it

01:04:18.500 doesn't

01:04:18.860 threaten

01:04:19.240 our

01:04:19.500 civilization

01:04:20.180 so I

01:04:21.560 find it

01:04:22.340 I have

01:04:22.880 to say

01:04:23.440 it

01:04:23.800 I

01:04:24.360 unlike

01:04:25.940 I'm an

01:04:26.920 unusual

01:04:27.380 person in the

01:04:28.840 sense that I

01:04:29.280 was a

01:04:29.580 pandemic

01:04:29.860 I am a

01:04:30.320 pandemic

01:04:30.660 alarmist

01:04:31.260 I think

01:04:31.700 that

01:04:32.040 when you

01:04:33.020 and I

01:04:33.360 appreciate

01:04:33.760 gates on

01:04:34.440 this

01:04:34.700 is that

01:04:35.160 I'm not

01:04:35.540 a climate

01:04:35.880 alarmist

01:04:36.300 but I'm a

01:04:36.560 climate

01:04:36.780 alarmist

01:04:37.280 and the

01:04:37.520 reason is

01:04:38.060 is that

01:04:38.360 I think

01:04:38.760 early rapid

01:04:39.720 action to

01:04:40.460 stop a

01:04:40.800 pandemic

01:04:41.080 from spreading

01:04:41.720 is a

01:04:42.740 no-brainer

01:04:43.320 because it's

01:04:43.920 a much

01:04:44.160 easier problem

01:04:44.740 to deal

01:04:45.040 with if

01:04:45.460 you have

01:04:45.840 earlier

01:04:46.440 alarmism

01:04:47.780 that's not

01:04:48.660 the same

01:04:49.060 with climate

01:04:49.500 change

01:04:49.900 it's a

01:04:50.260 problem

01:04:50.960 that's

01:04:51.300 hundreds

01:04:51.600 of years

01:04:52.900 with pandemics

01:04:54.000 action within

01:04:55.160 minutes and

01:04:55.740 hours matters

01:04:56.520 on climate

01:04:57.020 change you're

01:04:57.420 talking decades

01:04:58.060 and centuries

01:04:58.600 so I'm a

01:04:59.920 pandemic

01:05:00.160 alarmist

01:05:00.400 so I

01:05:00.580 thought

01:05:00.720 gates

01:05:01.120 and I

01:05:02.180 appreciate

01:05:02.500 his work

01:05:02.920 on vaccines

01:05:03.460 on the

01:05:03.740 pandemics

01:05:04.120 I think

01:05:04.560 he's a

01:05:04.980 good person

01:05:05.440 at heart

01:05:05.940 but I

01:05:07.340 think that

01:05:07.740 this idea

01:05:08.680 of cooling

01:05:09.360 the planet

01:05:09.940 it's

01:05:11.100 cartoon

01:05:11.700 villain

01:05:12.100 type

01:05:12.440 stuff

01:05:12.840 Megan

01:05:13.160 I mean

01:05:13.520 honestly

01:05:13.860 I go

01:05:14.220 this is

01:05:14.580 kind of

01:05:14.920 the

01:05:15.040 this is

01:05:15.380 the stuff

01:05:15.660 where if

01:05:15.860 you did

01:05:16.100 a Hollywood

01:05:16.460 movie

01:05:16.680 you would

01:05:19.100 be like

01:05:19.420 it's so

01:05:19.860 outlandish

01:05:20.700 nobody

01:05:21.200 in the

01:05:21.600 real world

01:05:22.100 would do

01:05:22.500 it

01:05:22.720 like

01:05:23.040 Hollywood

01:05:23.400 wouldn't

01:05:23.820 even

01:05:24.040 produce

01:05:24.400 a script

01:05:24.700 on it

01:05:25.060 because it

01:05:25.320 seems so

01:05:25.680 ridiculous

01:05:26.180 but yet

01:05:27.740 that's

01:05:27.960 what they're

01:05:28.180 talking

01:05:28.520 about

01:05:28.800 doing

01:05:29.220 yeah

01:05:29.940 who the

01:05:30.700 hell

01:05:30.880 knows

01:05:31.180 what

01:05:31.380 you're

01:05:31.520 what

01:05:31.740 kind

01:05:31.900 of

01:05:32.020 world

01:05:32.300 you're

01:05:32.660 unleashing

01:05:33.220 for the

01:05:33.500 rest

01:05:33.740 of us

01:05:34.060 I want

01:05:34.860 to ask

01:05:35.100 you

01:05:35.200 one other

01:05:35.420 thing

01:05:35.660 I know

01:05:35.920 we don't

01:05:36.680 have that

01:05:36.880 much time

01:05:37.180 left

01:05:37.320 but I

01:05:37.620 want to

01:05:37.860 ask you

01:05:38.300 one of

01:05:39.060 the things

01:05:39.400 you said

01:05:40.020 is worth

01:05:40.640 worrying

01:05:41.000 about

01:05:41.340 is

01:05:42.240 an

01:05:43.700 asteroid

01:05:44.460 so that's

01:05:45.620 upsetting

01:05:46.040 because that's

01:05:46.800 when we

01:05:47.100 really don't

01:05:47.680 have any

01:05:48.020 control over

01:05:48.840 and you

01:05:50.440 do hear

01:05:51.120 reports

01:05:51.680 too frequently

01:05:52.660 about

01:05:53.300 near misses

01:05:54.700 which is a

01:05:55.260 misnomer

01:05:55.620 of course

01:05:56.020 more accurately

01:05:57.140 a near hit

01:05:57.760 a thankfulness

01:05:59.140 because there is a

01:06:00.080 scenario where you go

01:06:00.800 there might

01:06:01.100 there might be

01:06:01.620 some way that

01:06:02.580 climate change

01:06:03.120 would be

01:06:03.680 apocalyptic

01:06:04.280 that we

01:06:04.780 aren't

01:06:04.960 imagining

01:06:05.420 there's

01:06:05.740 various

01:06:06.000 scenarios

01:06:06.460 and none

01:06:06.900 of them

01:06:07.060 are

01:06:07.160 scientific

01:06:07.540 and none

01:06:08.080 of them

01:06:08.280 are used

01:06:08.640 by any

01:06:09.040 of the

01:06:09.200 major

01:06:09.360 scientific

01:06:09.680 bodies

01:06:10.020 but they

01:06:10.280 do exist

01:06:10.800 but then you

01:06:11.440 start getting

01:06:11.780 into other

01:06:12.240 apocalyptic

01:06:12.800 scenarios

01:06:13.480 you know

01:06:14.600 and the big

01:06:14.900 ones are

01:06:15.260 asteroids

01:06:15.980 super

01:06:16.600 volcanoes

01:06:17.120 you know

01:06:18.460 pandemics

01:06:18.980 wars

01:06:19.540 and aliens

01:06:21.280 which is now

01:06:22.540 in the news

01:06:22.980 a lot

01:06:23.460 and honestly

01:06:24.520 I look at

01:06:24.880 all those

01:06:25.260 and I go

01:06:25.540 yeah those

01:06:25.900 all have

01:06:26.460 better

01:06:26.800 mechanisms

01:06:27.540 for like

01:06:29.200 civilization

01:06:29.800 destruction

01:06:30.460 than climate

01:06:31.300 change

01:06:31.820 you know

01:06:32.580 you actually

01:06:34.240 have a

01:06:34.540 mechanism

01:06:34.920 there isn't

01:06:35.500 one

01:06:35.840 for

01:06:36.400 climate

01:06:36.980 change

01:06:37.440 so

01:06:37.780 I look

01:06:38.840 at all

01:06:39.120 of them

01:06:39.300 and I worry

01:06:39.700 about them

01:06:40.400 you know

01:06:42.180 I'd like to

01:06:42.720 see more

01:06:43.020 disclosure

01:06:43.500 about these

01:06:44.200 UFO sightings

01:06:45.240 honestly

01:06:45.780 I don't think

01:06:46.360 we know

01:06:46.640 what the public

01:06:47.440 knows what

01:06:47.820 those are

01:06:48.340 and I think

01:06:49.300 they've been

01:06:49.680 ridiculed

01:06:50.200 for a long

01:06:50.600 time

01:06:51.000 unfairly

01:06:51.840 and then

01:06:53.400 on asteroids

01:06:54.220 yeah

01:06:55.140 like on the

01:06:55.620 one hand

01:06:55.840 we do

01:06:56.140 have a

01:06:56.420 program

01:06:56.940 we do

01:06:57.380 have an

01:06:57.600 asteroid

01:06:57.880 detection

01:06:58.280 program

01:06:58.980 most people

01:07:00.380 I talk

01:07:00.700 to kind

01:07:01.040 of when you

01:07:01.380 look at it

01:07:01.940 you ask

01:07:02.820 do we

01:07:03.520 put enough

01:07:03.920 money in

01:07:04.380 that

01:07:04.700 you kind

01:07:05.180 of go

01:07:05.360 well maybe

01:07:05.920 but we

01:07:06.380 do keep

01:07:06.940 missing a

01:07:07.560 bunch of

01:07:07.940 them

01:07:08.140 you know

01:07:08.520 so

01:07:08.820 yeah

01:07:10.300 I could

01:07:10.740 I think

01:07:11.420 sign me

01:07:12.040 up for

01:07:12.740 spending

01:07:13.560 more money

01:07:14.020 on asteroid

01:07:14.580 detection

01:07:15.100 like I'm

01:07:16.360 on board

01:07:16.640 with that

01:07:17.120 why can't

01:07:18.000 bill fund

01:07:18.520 to study

01:07:19.000 that aims

01:07:19.700 to create

01:07:20.120 the spray

01:07:20.700 that that

01:07:21.380 bounces

01:07:22.500 those asteroids

01:07:23.420 right off

01:07:23.900 the earth's

01:07:24.340 atmosphere

01:07:24.840 that would

01:07:25.260 be helpful

01:07:25.740 that we

01:07:26.380 could get

01:07:26.640 behind

01:07:27.000 yeah the

01:07:28.000 funny thing

01:07:28.400 is we

01:07:28.680 know how

01:07:28.920 to do

01:07:29.180 it I

01:07:29.400 mean like

01:07:30.000 that they

01:07:30.440 did a

01:07:38.600 Hollywood movie about it but that mechanism I believe is the same one they're they proposed which is basically to you would try to land something on it and move it off its orbit you know well before it got here but yeah if you can't detect them then then then you're hosed but you know honestly Megan the the I think the boring reality is that you know humans are doing pretty well like on most measures at a global level you know things I worry about in the United States are

01:08:00.420 I think the bigger things to worry about and I think the bigger things to worry about and the big things to worry about and untreated mental illness crisis our country is I think social media is making people crazy I think our polarization is problematic you know rising inequality and distancing from each other and I worry that we spend a lot of time I mean it's the number one thing for Biden you know it's really a big thing for them and I kind of go how is it that

01:08:28.580 you know because i have a book coming out about the addiction crisis how why are we worried you

01:08:34.380 know climate change natural disasters killed 411 people in 2019 but drug overdose deaths

01:08:40.520 we think in 2020 are going to have killed somewhere around 88 000 that's sad and yet we

01:08:47.060 don't have a single we don't have a drug czar we don't have a plan there's no plan to reduce those

01:08:52.060 drug overdose deaths we have john kerry's our climate czar and he's flying all over the world

01:08:56.560 in a private jet and saying i'm not going to be defensive of it i need it somebody in my position

01:09:02.720 needs it oh please this is why people hate politicians um i i will say though to your

01:09:08.740 point the studies show that this that climate alarmism is causing depression and anxiety in

01:09:16.060 particular in children because people try to loop their children into this to make them little

01:09:20.840 activists we've seen this in our own schools again people have heard me talk about our schools

01:09:25.180 we have seen our schools literally suggest to our children that this might be a cause they want

01:09:30.660 to pick up and become an activist on and you know i've said before on this program if anybody in my

01:09:35.840 family is going to be activated under the age of 18 they'll be activated by me and my husband doug

01:09:41.440 not by some school teacher who's listening to greta turnberg because frankly her activism doesn't

01:09:47.560 seem to make her that happy but it's there are consequences to the alarmism we hear from people

01:09:53.560 like joe biden like john carrey like bill gates even and i it's refreshing to hear another sound

01:10:00.560 scientific point of view that's a bit calmer i mean that was a big reason i wrote apocalypse never

01:10:06.880 was my daughter's 15 she's fine but i have interviewed her friends and they are very scared

01:10:13.080 and you know adolescent girls are the ones that we worry the most about because we've seen

01:10:18.140 we think there's a you know if you believe the psychologist jonathan heights work we think

01:10:22.300 there's a we see rising anxiety and depression and suicide we see it among all ages but we certainly

01:10:28.060 see it among adolescents we know that one out of five british teenagers have nightmares i think the

01:10:33.040 numbers are probably very similar in the united states half of all people surveyed globally in this

01:10:38.100 huge global survey very good survey found that half of all people think that humans could go extinct

01:10:43.140 because of climate change i mean the fears are so i mean there was alarmism about nuclear weapons but

01:10:50.260 nuclear weapons really can cause like the destruction of civilization climate change like there's like no

01:10:56.460 mechanism like i'm always like what's the mechanism where somehow we run out of food or electricity or

01:11:04.220 any of these things they don't even have one and so you've really they've become it's the conversation

01:11:09.420 has just become unhinged from reality in a fundamental way well it's quite a book and i i really enjoyed

01:11:16.660 watching your media tour when it first came out and i appreciate you writing it and for all of your time

01:11:21.780 it's been a pleasure please come back well thanks for having me megan i'm a long-time fan and you've

01:11:26.460 been very brave in your journalism so i appreciate you taking the time to talk with me coming up right

01:11:31.060 after this should conservatives be conservationists and is that the future for the republican party we'll

01:11:39.000 get into that with our guest benji backer and then before we get to him i want to bring you a feature

01:11:44.400 we have here on the show called asked and answered where we try to answer some of our listener mail

01:11:50.520 steve krakauer our ep is here steve what's the question today hey megan yeah these this one came we

01:11:56.060 made a call out on all our social media accounts twitter facebook and instagram uh and everyone can

01:12:01.020 follow us there at megan kelly show on all those platforms this one came to us from instagram one of

01:12:06.120 our followers there tiffany olivier wants to know what your fitness routine is well it looks very

01:12:13.120 different now than it did a year ago to be honest with you tiffany i haven't been doing much during the

01:12:17.300 pandemic but i had for the first time in a long time gotten into exercise prior to the shutdown i i went for a

01:12:24.340 long long period without exercising at all i used to teach aerobics so i was super into exercise for

01:12:29.100 many many years and then i got into law i had a bunch of children so many and um i was working all

01:12:36.040 the time and i just kind of i wasn't doing it as much i do it here or there but it wasn't like a

01:12:40.160 regular you know some people are totally regular about it anyway after i left mbc and i finally got

01:12:45.980 off the couch before i got off the couch professionally i did start working out and i have to tell you i loved

01:12:52.480 it so first i started doing yoga and that that was fun although fraught and it's kind of a story

01:13:00.360 behind it but i was i was in my very first day of yoga my friend if he was like come on meg let's go

01:13:06.020 you know it's gonna feel good you're gonna try i'd never done yoga like here or there just like a move

01:13:10.940 but never a class i go into the class the lady is showing one of the moves um what is it called again

01:13:20.180 what's that move abby no not downward dog um see it's been a while it's where you um oh there's a

01:13:28.200 name for it i can't remember you put your hands on the floor and you bend your elbows out to the side

01:13:33.780 and then you put your knees on your triceps is that crow pose crow crow pose yes crow pose thank you

01:13:43.840 guys thank you steve i did some yoga as you can see i'm a definite yogi crow pose so i'm like i think

01:13:51.760 i can do this i had done it one time on my mbc show when there was an instructor i'm like i'm gonna

01:13:56.040 try it so i i tried to get in the position and what the instructor didn't tell me is that

01:14:01.400 if you're if you can't do crow pose if it turns out you can't you should probably put like a mat

01:14:07.380 or something under your face because that is where you land and i went down and the full force of my

01:14:13.580 body boom and i heard something crunch and it was definitely my nose i'm like oh my god i think did i

01:14:21.420 break my nose and so i stand up blood all over my face running down my shirt i'm like ah now i wasn't

01:14:29.680 i wasn't even worried about my nose i was humiliated i'm like oh my god it's my first

01:14:34.220 damn class i broke something how is this possible and i was trying to play it cool you know like maybe

01:14:39.740 the blood will go away i just use my little towel maybe nobody's gonna notice and already i didn't

01:14:45.000 want to be like cold out of the crowd in fact when i first got in there the lady's like is there

01:14:49.100 anybody new today i'm like i guess i have to tell her so i do the little hand raise and she's like

01:14:54.000 what's your name you know in front of the whole class i'm like i don't want to announce that either

01:14:58.500 so i'm like um megan and she's like megan i'm like yeah yes and i must have just signaled

01:15:05.580 inadvertently you know not exactly right which i didn't mean to signal and she was like is that not

01:15:09.700 right is it not megan is it is it megan what is it megan i'm like oh my god move the hell on

01:15:14.780 so she came over to anyway so now we're in the class and i've called more attention to myself

01:15:20.260 though not on purpose and um she comes right over and i'm like oh now everyone's looking at me

01:15:25.840 they know they know i don't that broke something and uh yada yada yada i finished the class the no

01:15:32.760 stop bleeding i finished the class i'm like i'm just gonna go to the the doctor the ente just to

01:15:37.460 make sure everything's cool because you know i have a public career and i don't really want to

01:15:42.380 have a broken nose if that's what happened you know what it was broken sure enough i broke my damn

01:15:47.440 nose it was fine you could barely tell and it healed right up so it wasn't a thing but i i was scared

01:15:52.140 i was like i don't like yoga anyway i did turn out to like yoga i kept going back although i never

01:15:59.100 did the crow pose now i just i just did the tripod that's a good alternate i'll just put a second

01:16:04.860 piece to the story then i picked up on this thing in new york called the class the class and i think

01:16:10.880 it might be the class.com but this woman named taryn to me uh founded it that thing was a game changer

01:16:18.260 that totally changed my body it got me in great shape i loved doing it i had to drive all over

01:16:25.720 the city to get there because it wasn't like a studio nearby they just do it at different facilities

01:16:29.560 all downtown and i live uptown and it was worth it and the funniest thing about the class is sorry to

01:16:36.820 the people who take it more seriously than i did but like the women are yelling they're screaming

01:16:42.420 some are crying and i have to be honest i found it like somewhat entertaining

01:16:46.820 you know like if they do burn you you know they burn your butt they burn your legs they they work

01:16:53.920 a body part so intensely for five or six minutes that you're in cry out loud pain though i never did

01:17:00.880 and i always considered it like a win if i was next to a screamer you know like they'll just let it rip

01:17:05.620 like you're like wow okay and then you'd have like these instructors up there who are trying to

01:17:11.220 therapize you through the session and some of them are really good and some of them are like 20 year

01:17:15.420 old twits who have never been through anything i'm thinking okay all right tell me what it's like

01:17:19.400 to handle adversity sister bring it but anyway i found the whole thing even though i'm mocking it now

01:17:24.160 i loved it and it worked and it was transformative anyway i tried to do it via remote you know video

01:17:31.520 whatever the the online classes and i have to say that's dunk i i did not enjoy that for their own

01:17:37.520 sake i really hope they can open up again soon it's it's kind of absurd that they haven't been

01:17:41.180 able to long long-winded answer to say right now i do very little i have a peloton in my bedroom it's

01:17:46.540 carrying my clothes like it is for most people i don't really like peloton um doug and i go out for

01:17:52.620 our constitutionals around the uh reservoir in central park and sadly that's been my main form

01:17:58.140 of exercise but hope springs eternal i will get back to the class and start screaming and crying

01:18:03.580 like the rest of them because i want it as a release not because i've broken a bone like like you can do

01:18:09.980 or cartilage like you can do in yoga all right tiffany um there's 10 minutes of your life you'll

01:18:15.640 never get back thank you for asking and we'll get back to our guest right after this

01:18:20.380 benji hi hey megan it's great to uh to chat with you honored to be on oh it's my pleasure so you are

01:18:34.840 you're one of the unicorns right a republican conservationist i was told it couldn't happen

01:18:40.720 i was told the republicans hate the earth well that's what we hear all the time and despite that

01:18:48.200 republicans are the best conservationists in the world and we just have simply lost our seat at the

01:18:53.820 table so i'm uh i'm publicly a unicorn but everyone that's conservative knows that that's not the truth

01:18:59.320 you know what's funny to me is people for some reason i just guess since i'm not like a hard

01:19:05.240 right person i'm certainly not a hard left person people feel the need to come like confess their

01:19:09.540 politics to me quite often right and because i think most people genuinely are someplace in the

01:19:13.700 center and they're kind of sick of the hard polarization so they'll tell me you know like well

01:19:18.520 i lean right on all this stuff but not this and not that um or or the opposite and one of the

01:19:24.120 things a lot of i think right-leaning people will say that they're not right leaning on to me

01:19:29.140 is the environment because i think people worry they worry about the next generation you know i

01:19:34.640 i too i worry about the next generation worry about my kids i i don't want to screw up the environment

01:19:38.800 environment any more than we have but i'm also not a coal miner in west virginia who's got to put

01:19:43.620 food on the table for his kids through you know using fossil fuels right extracting fossil fuels so

01:19:49.540 i understand both sides of it anyway how did you how did you get to see this issue in the way that

01:19:55.840 you do right that you you actually are pro conservation and you want to get real about

01:19:59.400 climate change well speaking of that and speaking of feeling comfortable confiding in megan kelly

01:20:05.380 when i was 15 years old i joined your show and uh talked about some things that were happening in

01:20:11.620 the classroom uh as a as a young high schooler and on fox news and i spelled out the words uh

01:20:19.440 i spell out the word uh s-h-i-t on live television with you on your show when i was 15 years old

01:20:26.460 megan and so i confided in you uh i think by saying that on live air and i i cannot uh tell you how

01:20:34.600 many times i have been reminded of that over the years but regardless now that you're 22 you can just

01:20:40.800 say it shit it yeah well i don't know you know i don't know if this is uh i probably would have

01:20:46.420 gotten knocked right off the air yes we would have beeped you we would have beeped you exactly so

01:20:53.500 yes i said i said shit on national television with you but uh with speaking of that i was 15 years old

01:20:59.500 and i was on your show which was probably beg the question for many people like why was he on megan

01:21:04.920 kelly's show at 15 years old i was very active in politics then as a young conservative activist

01:21:10.340 and i was speaking at cpac and doing a bunch of of big national conservative political things

01:21:15.880 and i met so many young people who qualified their conservatism with exactly what you just said

01:21:23.580 i'm conservative on everything but the environment and that really bothered me because i grew up in a

01:21:30.580 family of entrepreneurs of people who lived the american dream but were conservative and were

01:21:36.920 incredibly environmentally conscious would go hiking and you know would kind of be like the

01:21:42.680 stereotypical liberal on the issue but definitely cared deeply about conservative values and then i

01:21:48.160 was meeting all these young people who felt like they had to be liberal on the issue to even

01:21:52.720 talk about it and i started to become more and more frustrated by it so then when i was a freshman

01:21:58.300 in college i decided to start what is called the american conservation coalition to give

01:22:03.900 conservatives a voice on the issue because what you're saying is true conservatives want to leave

01:22:08.940 the next generation better than they found it they want to protect the scarce resources that nature

01:22:15.760 provides and they have a deep connection with nature republicans live in rural areas and if you look at

01:22:22.640 an electoral map where the mountains are and the beautiful areas in this country usually are surrounded

01:22:28.140 by red republican districts and counties and so that's a good there definitely is a stewardship

01:22:33.260 yeah that's a that's actually a really good point i hadn't even considered that and yet you know i think

01:22:38.580 well you tell me but i feel like one of the reasons the republicans don't get out there on this issue is

01:22:43.220 because those who are out there on this issue are loathed by most people on the right including

01:22:49.620 the politicians who we would like to come out and say something like no i don't i don't want to be

01:22:55.320 aligned with aoc on any i don't like aoc and i think she's a very polarizing figure and i don't

01:23:00.680 see the world in the same way she does and i certainly don't want to be affiliated with her

01:23:04.320 stupid green new new green deal whatever right deal so like all it's it's one of those things

01:23:09.440 where all the people who are speaking about it are these loathsome hollywood celebrities with whom

01:23:13.160 you really want nothing to do exactly and and because so many conservatives or even moderates

01:23:19.180 have realized that like or they think that the green new deal or aoc are the only answers to

01:23:25.760 environmental issues then they run the other way and to your point you have republicans who are saying

01:23:32.200 that climate change isn't real or that this issue doesn't matter and and and then you look at an

01:23:36.680 electoral uh candidacy and the democrat has the environment as their number one or number two issue

01:23:42.560 and oftentimes it doesn't even make the republicans list and so what we're saying is

01:23:47.140 look we care a lot about this issue as conservatives and just because you don't like

01:23:51.820 the left of center approach doesn't mean that you have to run the other way or not talk about

01:23:56.660 the subject there are actually a lot of incredible economic market-based uh you know capital pro-capitalist

01:24:05.340 solutions to solving environmental issues and you actually will be stuck with an alternative that you

01:24:12.540 don't like if you don't lean in and that's why i think to your point these republican or conservatives

01:24:18.140 who maybe are more far right who you know say maybe the more uh radical things about being anti-climate

01:24:25.760 change or anti-environment are super damaging because you're not only turning away an entire

01:24:31.520 generation of potential conservatives but you're also allowing one side to dominate this issue with with

01:24:39.160 ideals that aren't conservative well i think republicans you know they are in the red states

01:24:42.980 and and the red states tend to be full of um men and women who work in fossil fuels and they don't

01:24:48.700 want to seem like they don't care about those guys the way you know some of the quotes that you've got like

01:24:54.160 john carrey saying all those jobs are going to be lost in the fossil fuels integers industry with all

01:24:59.100 those people are going to they're going to become renewable fuels guys they're going to be working in

01:25:02.400 in solar and wind which is absurd and not actually going to happen and it sounds tone deaf and frankly

01:25:10.840 bill gates has said stuff along those lines too and these the republicans who represent those guys

01:25:14.920 want to put a real face on the coal miners and say you don't understand anything i mean

01:25:18.720 biden was saying he wants to get rid of all of it fracking i mean you name it that's that's

01:25:24.240 that's one of the more acceptable i guess fossil fuels extractions but it's also controversial

01:25:29.300 and so it's gotten to be like everything else a red blue issue where you're you know it's either

01:25:35.920 all or nothing so as somebody who is more affiliated with the republican side who doesn't see it as all

01:25:41.500 or nothing how do you what do you want people to do differently and what do you think the country

01:25:45.900 should do about carbon emissions well look i think that the key word is pragmatism and you're right

01:25:52.360 people like john carrey and others on the left don't don't have that on this issue and they're painting

01:25:57.660 it as a black or white or red versus blue issue that really polarizes society i mean i unlike john

01:26:04.640 carrey i've actually visited a lot of coal communities and fossil fuel communities and actually

01:26:09.220 toured those facilities and met with the staff and and had an understanding of where these people are

01:26:15.120 coming from and i will continue to do that and one of the most frustrating parts of it is that they

01:26:19.940 want to be a part of this conversation and they want to be a part of the solution but when they're told

01:26:24.660 that oh you can just you know throw your life for a whirl and find a new job you know that's going to

01:26:30.580 make things incredibly hard to get buy-in from a majority of americans not just the ones working

01:26:35.940 in those industries and and then on the right obviously we've already talked about where the

01:26:39.820 frustrations lie so where is that kind of middle ground or how can the united states you know look at

01:26:45.480 emissions it really comes down to pragmatism and looking at it through a market-based economically sound

01:26:50.900 way the united states has no bearing on fighting climate change unless it creates technology and

01:26:58.560 innovation that can that it can export to countries like india and china which are dramatically increasing

01:27:05.360 their emissions and so like a green new deal is not transferable to those countries even a carbon price

01:27:11.980 or carbon tax is not transferable to those countries we need technology and innovation made here in the

01:27:17.900 united states that helps us move forward as a globe but also reduces emissions here and i think the

01:27:24.640 reality is you cannot regulate your way out of climate change you cannot regulate your way out of the

01:27:30.620 carbon emissions problem that we have as a globe you actually have to innovate your way out of these

01:27:36.120 complex situations and that means that conservatives should absolutely get bought in because it's an

01:27:42.200 economically sound approach it's a pro-business approach it is and it's approach that the the left of center

01:27:47.380 isn't taking but absolutely we need innovation and technology but we also need nuclear we need

01:27:53.120 natural solutions which include planting more trees and restoring wetlands where a lot of duck hunters

01:27:58.960 and and other you know folks in the fishing and hunting communities like to recreate you know we need to be

01:28:04.580 able to do these kind of common sense solutions but it doesn't always have to come from the top down

01:28:09.900 and the united states doesn't have a top down uh climate policy and yet is still reducing its

01:28:15.700 emissions more than any other country uh across the globe so we have more work to do and we have

01:28:21.360 emitted more than any country throughout history but we are headed in the right direction without a

01:28:26.080 federal government policy which shows how diverse the solution set should be what do you think the

01:28:31.800 you remember barack obama was telling us we were going to have to get rid of our suvs and keep our

01:28:36.280 thermostat on i don't know 68 or whatever he said um just just wear a sweater wear a sweater it was

01:28:41.880 like all right now at the point where my president's telling me what to wear we've crossed over into a

01:28:46.900 weird kind of territory you in the tan suit remember him in the tan suit i'm not taking fashion advice

01:28:52.020 from him or any other president anyway my point is so what do you do do you like as an individual what

01:28:57.320 do you do and what do you think people listening to this program should do or is it just really not

01:29:02.360 an individual responsibility it's more a policy approach well i first love that you brought up

01:29:08.660 uh barack obama's uh where i i personally used to wear suits at 15 when i was on your show and i've

01:29:15.720 started to wear just quarter zips to meet with members of congress or uh or sweatshirts or whatever

01:29:20.340 because it's like you know this this whole post-covid casualness is is hopefully gonna stay uh and i'm

01:29:27.100 very happy about that as someone who loves to to wear outdoor clothing but in your own personal

01:29:32.560 lives i mean it does matter to make an impact and and i would equate it to like voting a lot of people

01:29:39.780 don't think that their vote matters as an individual but when it collectively you're thinking your vote

01:29:45.700 doesn't matter it makes a huge difference similar to climate change of the environment you think that

01:29:51.180 your individual action doesn't matter but as a collective society it does really matter what you do

01:29:56.160 but i think unlike what barack obama or or left of center people will say oftentimes it is up to you

01:30:03.080 to decide what you can and what you should do and think about your own personal lives as a way to

01:30:09.280 have a barometer so for example you know i'm often i'm in arizona right now i do not need to stop

01:30:15.920 wearing a sweater in arizona ever there's really hardly any time where a sweater would ever not need to

01:30:21.440 be worn to your example but in the midwest that's a different case where i grew up and

01:30:26.080 so i think like in every part of the country in every part of society we all have different ways

01:30:30.740 that we can lower our environmental impact whether that's reducing single-use plastic

01:30:35.560 traveling less traveling more efficiently uh you know upgrading technology if we have the means to do so

01:30:42.780 but it's it's thinking about what you do in your day-to-day life and thinking how can i reduce my

01:30:47.440 impact from this activity and if it is a lot of times can can save you money or save you time

01:30:54.000 but if you can't it's not about shaming people who aren't able to make those changes we as a society

01:30:59.940 have a duty to come up with solutions that make things cheaper and easier for people to do

01:31:05.620 that that also protects the environment at the same time so i guess the first suggestion would be

01:31:11.180 to do things in your own personal capacity that makes sense and then second advocate for changes that

01:31:18.060 are technological and innovation based and push your elected officials to do that as well

01:31:22.660 well how do you feel about aerosols because the pump hairspray does not work and every woman out

01:31:28.640 there knows i speak the truth well you know i don't know a lot about aerosols i have to i have

01:31:35.480 to admit um but you know until they can come up with a better technology you just gotta keep doing you

01:31:41.020 yeah thank you for understanding me by the way i'm looking at you i see a screen grab of you on my show

01:31:47.500 um back in 2011 you have a nice suit on you have a purple shirt sort of a purplish bluish tie you look

01:31:53.940 very snazzy and you do look like a kid you've done a lot for 22 um and you obviously you kick things off

01:32:00.480 right back in uh 2011 with me so i appreciate your evolution your willingness to come on to buck trends

01:32:07.680 and keep it up benji what a pleasure well an absolute pleasure to join you and it feels like

01:32:12.980 kind of coming full circle i appreciate your voice more than more than you know and i'm really hopeful

01:32:17.400 that you know this this message of common sense environmentalism can can become the more popular

01:32:22.600 sense of environmentalism going forward so thanks for being part of it

01:32:25.760 our thanks to michael and benji i love that show i learned a lot i hope you feel the same

01:32:34.480 and if you would like to continue learning uh with me and hopefully being entertained along the way

01:32:38.980 go and subscribe to the show it really helps us um i don't totally understand how it helps us but

01:32:44.460 everybody tells me that if you subscribe and download it really helps us and helping us even

01:32:48.760 more would be to rate the show with five stars and to give us a nice review all that stuff affects

01:32:53.200 somehow i guess the apple algorithm i don't know just do it would you do me a solid i don't ask for

01:32:59.560 much just do it uh and give me a nice review or or any sort of a review we're getting so many good

01:33:06.520 guest suggestions from those reviews i've read all 16 plus thousand of them yes i have don't doubt me

01:33:12.580 because eventually i'll probably read one of yours on the air so watch it more importantly listen to it

01:33:19.620 and uh i'll talk to you next time thanks for listening to the megan kelly show no bs

01:33:25.760 no agenda and no fear the megan kelly show is a devil may care media production

01:33:31.740 in collaboration with red seat ventures

01:33:33.960 you

The Megyn Kelly Show - April 26, 2021

Climate Truth： Climate Change Alarmism and Reality, with Michael Shellenberger and Benji Backer ｜ Ep. 94

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