The Megyn Kelly Show - CNN's Vivek Meltdown, Status of the Bud Light Boycott, and Trump's Polling Dominance, with the Ruthless Podcast

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00:00:31.000 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:42.520 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show and happy Thursday.

00:00:47.160 There is so much to get to today.

00:00:49.700 New polling showing former President Donald Trump now leading President Biden in all seven swing states,

00:00:55.580 at least two of those outside the margin of error.

00:00:57.560 The New York Times, meantime, is heaping praise on Harvard President Dr. Claudine Gay,

00:01:04.640 saying she was, quote, destined to reach the pinnacle of higher education.

00:01:09.740 Running a little cover for their gal pal over there as she's being accused of being a serial

00:01:15.880 plagiarizer, not to mention somebody who doesn't seem to particularly care much about Jews,

00:01:21.920 though now she's out there celebrating Hanukkah.

00:01:23.820 This is like when people used to go, they get in trouble for like being alleged racist and they

00:01:29.700 would go make a donation to Al Sharpton. She's out there celebrating Hanukkah, lighting like

00:01:34.780 literally lighting menorahs with a tiki torch. It's a confused message. It's really in any event.

00:01:40.820 So, um, meantime, some of the biggest race baiters, race baiters in America calling any criticism

00:01:47.520 of Dr. Claudine Gay, this Harvard president, racism and an example of white supremacy. You see,

00:01:53.800 if you don't want a serial plagiarizer as the head of Harvard, one who doesn't seem to much care

00:01:58.900 if Jews are being chanted, hearing chants of genocide to the Jews outside of their classroom windows,

00:02:03.880 that makes you a white supremacist. I don't know if you knew that, but we're here for you.

00:02:08.120 And so are the NAACP and Nicole Hannah-Jones, which we'll get to. Joining me now to discuss it all,

00:02:15.320 Michael Duncan, Josh Ashbrook, and the man known to his minions as comfortably smug. Together,

00:02:21.640 they make up Ruthless, the very popular variety program. We're expecting Josh Holmes to join us

00:02:29.480 in a bit, but he likes to keep us on the edge. He, you know, it's like, likes to make an entrance.

00:02:33.560 So we'll see guys. Welcome back. Thanks for having us. Yeah. Great to be

00:02:38.100 here, Megan. Great to see you all. Duncan, the facial hair is coming back. I like it.

00:02:43.560 Yeah, it's, it's sort of my winter tradition, especially when I'm going to be traveling.

00:02:48.980 What I like to do is I get it as bushy as possible, get like a push broom mustache going.

00:02:54.900 Then I shave it right before I travel, put on a windbreaker. And then everybody in the airport

00:03:00.560 thinks maybe you're like an undercover air marshal and they treat you, they treat you really well.

00:03:06.980 Yeah. There is power in the stash. I see what you're talking about. Like you do look at a guy

00:03:11.880 who wears the stash confidently a little differently. I'll take it. You know, Doug and I were just having

00:03:19.560 this conversation. Doug still has all of his own hair, but we were talking about guys who get like

00:03:24.740 the fill in, you know, upfront and trust me in news. I know a lot of them and I'm for it for it

00:03:30.600 or against it. I just like, it's, there's nothing wrong with going bald, but I just think for,

00:03:35.260 especially men who are in the public eye, you're not like, I don't, the, the, some guys can go good

00:03:40.820 bald, but I would say it's the exception, not the rule. And I like the little fill in that some guys

00:03:46.980 get, you know, you can either get fake fill in or you can get it from the back of your head.

00:03:51.660 And I'm not going to say who, but I used to work with somebody who had that done. So like,

00:03:56.200 you can tell because the back of their head looks like a baby's bottom. It doesn't have hair coming

00:04:00.700 out of it like a normal, because all those things have been put up in the front. So what do you

00:04:06.120 think forward or against it? I mean, I think by any means necessary, honestly, like it's a tough thing

00:04:11.960 for a guy. I mean, you know, by God's grace, uh, I have yet to lose the hair, but I would do

00:04:17.900 you've got the most like full head of hair I've ever seen in real life. I'd make a deal with the

00:04:22.960 devil to keep this fight. I don't know. I feel like, uh, you're right. Like you got to be able

00:04:30.040 to rock it. And there's only certain people that can rock it, you know, like Walter White,

00:04:35.220 great bald, you know, Michael shitless, LL cool J, you know, like Michael Jordan, you have to have

00:04:41.660 some swag, like to, to rock bald. Then there's bad bald, like Anthony Edwards, forgive me,

00:04:47.800 but that's not a good bald, you know, from ER. You remember him? Yeah. Sad. I would like to see,

00:04:54.480 I would like to see pictures of what the back of their head looks like, because I don't think I've

00:04:59.280 ever seen that. The reverse mullet. I'll tell you what they do. I figured it out. Here's what they do.

00:05:05.100 You get all the follicles from back here and you have them transplanted up here where you need the

00:05:10.020 hair. Cause you don't really need it way back there. And then you just grow your hair out your

00:05:14.460 hair. That is like kind of high up on the back of your head. You let it grow. So it is a little

00:05:19.540 mullet ask. It's true. Like if the wind blew and you'd see just bare, bare head underneath that

00:05:25.140 hair, you do have to grow it. Cause it starts up too high. You can't just let it end where it would

00:05:30.960 end, but who's going to really be staring at your hair that closely from the back other than me.

00:05:37.620 It's like a strategic comb over, you know, cause everyone can tell us it's a lie up top,

00:05:41.860 but if you're hiding in the back, you can get away with it. Like a good deal. Solid trade.

00:05:46.720 They have so few tools to help them through like the loss of their looks over the years. Like women,

00:05:52.140 my God, we can, we have so many tools in our arsenal. I always say to Doug, this is like,

00:05:56.580 what's amazing about him is he's just like, he wakes up looking like that. Like he does,

00:06:00.140 he has to do nothing. Whereas my routine takes forever. If you could see what I look like in the

00:06:04.300 morning, you'd wonder why the man married me in any event. God bless men. If you do it,

00:06:08.900 I support it. That's not actually what the focus of today's show is.

00:06:15.580 But in any event, um, all right, so I want to get to Claudine Gay and all of it,

00:06:18.740 but I've got to start with the polls. Cause I've heard you guys talking a lot about them

00:06:21.900 and there's yet more out today, just showing absolutely terrible results for Joe Biden versus

00:06:27.140 Donald Trump. But I've heard you guys, and I saw you tweeting about it, Duncan, with like some

00:06:31.700 important caveats here that I do think we need to address. So Trump now leading Biden in seven

00:06:38.160 of the seven swing States, all seven recently, it was six. Now it's gone up to seven. And, um,

00:06:44.920 this is morning consult, Arizona up by four, Georgia up by six, Michigan by four. He was up by 10 in the

00:06:51.000 last poll, Nevada up by three, North Carolina up by nine, Pennsylvania up by two, Wisconsin up by four.

00:06:58.600 What is that caveat Duncan that you think people need to remember?

00:07:04.760 Uh, it's pretty simple. Um, you know, Ipsos ran a poll yesterday where they asked, uh, I think an

00:07:11.520 important question, uh, for Republicans and everybody to consider. And that is, um, you know,

00:07:16.520 if he is convicted of a felony by a jury, would you still support Donald Trump for president?

00:07:22.720 Uh, yes, 25, no 59. Um, and considering he's facing 91 indictments and a handful of, of cases over the

00:07:33.360 next nine months, you know, he's going to have to really draw an inside, uh, an inside Royal flush,

00:07:38.780 I think to avoid being convicted of at least one of those charges, unless he's able to somehow get all

00:07:45.620 of them delayed past election day. I guess that is possible. You know, the, uh, Jack Smith, the special

00:07:52.080 prosecutor has asked the Supreme court to sort of pre-vet an immunity claim in that, um, uh, DC case.

00:08:01.180 Um, you know, we ultimately, we don't know today, you know, how quickly SCOTUS might hear that. Um,

00:08:07.020 and that could delay that one case, but then you'd also have to get a delay in the Mar-a-Lago

00:08:11.420 Docs case, the Georgia state case, and the handful of other things that are sort of out there, uh,

00:08:18.340 as well. Um, which I, I, I don't think, I mean, you'd know better than I, I do. I'm not a lawyer.

00:08:24.900 Um, but I have to think one of these is going to happen before election day.

00:08:29.140 Well, all right, here's a couple of things on that. I, and I want to talk about it.

00:08:32.740 That Ipsos poll is bad. Reuters Ipsos, as you point out, and it was a big poll sample of 4,400

00:08:38.180 adults. So that's a lot. That's a big one. Um, Dems, GOP, and independents all in there.

00:08:44.540 And you're right. They said, uh, that Trump, Trump was leading, uh, he's leading 61% over

00:08:51.140 DeSantis at 11 Haley tied for number two at 11. And on the Trump charges, they said, okay,

00:08:58.320 if he's convicted, 64% said he should not run for president. And then would you vote for Trump if

00:09:04.400 he's convicted of a felony? 59% say no. And that includes 66% of independents, only 31% of

00:09:13.520 Republicans say if he's convicted, it's going to stop me from voting for him. That's the never Trump

00:09:17.920 crowd. And maybe a few others, no big surprise in the Republicans, but two thirds of independents say

00:09:25.640 conviction is a deal breaker for me. I'm not doing it. That is a problem. Like that does have to be

00:09:32.660 factored into these Trump leads that Republicans are getting so excited about, um, in poll after

00:09:41.140 poll. He, he hasn't yet been convicted and there is a very good chance he will be. However,

00:09:47.400 we're sort of, we're sort of, we're sleepwalking towards, I don't feel, I don't feel like the

00:09:50.680 presidential candidates who are opposing Donald Trump are really litigating this for the Republican

00:09:55.740 electorate either. They never mention it. Yeah. They never mention it. It's, I got thoughts on

00:10:02.760 that too, but wait, let me, so let me just finish the legal stuff. By the way, Holmes, welcome to the

00:10:06.260 party. Um, so, uh, on the legal front, Trump's chances got a lot better yesterday, a lot better

00:10:15.260 yesterday because the Supreme court agreed to take up this January 6th case, not involving Trump,

00:10:21.100 involving regular J six defendants. And one of the claims involving whether you can be charged with

00:10:28.220 a felony for obstructing a congressional proceeding that happens to also be a claim against Trump.

00:10:35.280 And for sure, Trump's legal team is going to try to use the Supreme court mulling the

00:10:39.960 constitutionality of one of the charges against him as a reason to delay the trial against him.

00:10:45.540 And that's a pretty good argument. And in addition, this argument about whether Trump can be

00:10:51.960 prosecuted for crimes at all for things he did as president, which is not yet clear under any federal

00:10:59.920 precedent that also is now going up to the Supreme court. We believe on an expedited basis, but not

00:11:06.640 entirely clear whether they're going to take it right now. They've asked for expedited briefing on whether

00:11:11.440 they should take it at all, much less in an expedited fashion. So the Supreme court, I think

00:11:17.440 we'll take it, but we have to see how quickly all of this works for Trump because the number one thing

00:11:23.880 he wants, especially in that DC federal case is delay. The Georgia case, I don't see getting tried

00:11:31.540 before November 24. It's got too much shit in it. She screwed up Rico against 19 defendants. You screwed up

00:11:38.340 lady. It should have been much more simple and streamlined. You had your chance, muffed it down

00:11:44.260 Mar-a-Lago documents, the best legal case against him, but probably with the best jury for Trump and

00:11:49.720 certainly the best judge for Trump. It's a Trump appointed federal judge. It's a jury in an area

00:11:54.440 of Florida that's more red. But the legal case itself is very strong against Trump, frankly. That's

00:12:01.700 why he's been doing jury nullification on that. Just going out there saying Biden did it. Everyone did

00:12:06.100 it. I did nothing wrong. You know, nothing about whatever that case. Again, I don't see that coming

00:12:11.880 before November, 2024, because it's in depth. Who's got access to the classified documents? Can

00:12:17.300 the defense lawyers see them? Can the jurors see them? Which ones can they see? Which ones can't

00:12:21.340 they see? Are people going to get security clearances? Annie McCarthy's been talking about

00:12:24.720 this a lot on National Review. That's going to take a while for the court to figure out. And P.S.,

00:12:29.060 the Trump appointed judge has no reason to put the pedal to the metal and speed it along.

00:12:32.680 She is not a Judge Chutkin, the federal judge in D.C. who can't stand him.

00:12:37.340 So I like my chances of delay in Florida if I'm Trump. And I like my chances of not getting tried

00:12:42.920 in Georgia, too, because Fannie Willis overcharged. Then you go up to New York. No one gives a shit

00:12:47.460 about the New York case. He's not facing jail time. It's about the Stormy Daniels hush payment,

00:12:52.520 whatever. That's not going to affect anything. I don't think that's the one people are going to say,

00:12:57.760 I'm not voting even independents because he didn't document his hush money to Stormy.

00:13:03.140 So that leaves us with D.C., which is the best place for him to be convicted. It really is.

00:13:08.500 Chutkin hates him. The D.C. jury is going to hate him. The J6 charges are trumped up for sure. But

00:13:13.700 D.C. jury is probably going to do it. So all they really need is get the conviction. Even if it gets

00:13:18.940 reversed on appeal, the conviction helps the Dems. And the fact that Jack Smith is like,

00:13:22.920 I have to have a resolution immediately just shows what a partisan hack he is.

00:13:28.220 I said this on the air yesterday. Then I found out even The Washington Post

00:13:31.320 had an opinion piece saying that even the Democrats are starting to see this is so political.

00:13:36.740 There's no reason for Jack Smith to be like, fast, fast. We have to resolve the immunity issue

00:13:40.840 and skip the Court of Appeals ruling, which is what he wanted to do. The lower court ruled

00:13:45.240 no immunity. Chutkin. Normally, you go up to the Court of Appeals, the D.C. circuit and say,

00:13:50.440 did Chutkin get it right? Jack Smith, the prosecutor, said, fuck you, Fifth Circuit.

00:13:54.220 I'm going right to SCOTUS. I need an immediate ruling. Does he have immunity or doesn't he?

00:13:57.840 I got to get this case tried ASAP. Supposed to go March 4th, the day before Super Tuesday.

00:14:01.860 Do me a solid, SCOTUS. So in any event, if Trump can delay that case as much as humanly possible,

00:14:08.780 then he's not a convicted felon before November 2024. And then on November 2024, if he wins,

00:14:14.880 he can pull the feds off of those cases in D.C. and in Florida. And then he's just stuck with Fannie

00:14:22.460 Willis down there in Georgia, who's going to have quite a pickle trying to put the sitting

00:14:25.680 president of the United States, even in the defendant's chair, where you're supposed to

00:14:30.860 be in a criminal trial, never mind in jail. And as I said, F the New York case. I'm like,

00:14:36.380 we're kind of done with it. It was shocking to have it indicted, but it's a nothing burger net net.

00:14:40.580 So that's my legal analysis of why yesterday's two Supreme Court pieces of news are very good

00:14:46.380 for Trump. Doesn't mean it's not going to happen, guys. And these polls are still an issue because

00:14:52.740 if it does happen, God, the Republicans are taking a huge gamble.

00:14:57.500 Oh, the whole thing's a gamble. I mean, just listen to the analysis, which is exquisite as it

00:15:02.460 usually is with you, Megan. But I mean, what everybody's pinning their hopes to is a Supreme

00:15:08.600 Court that's going to find a different group of defendants can't actually obstruct an official

00:15:13.220 proceeding. So somehow that that will work out in his favor, which I think is an open question.

00:15:17.820 We always knew, by the way, that this Jan 6 case was going to end up at the Supreme Court.

00:15:23.260 There is nothing but new precedent here from beginning to end. Doesn't mean it's not going

00:15:27.940 to stick, but this just has to be litigated in the Supreme Court one way or another. Getting a front

00:15:33.360 run on that. And it does sound like, based on your analysis, that it is probably a good thing for

00:15:38.100 Trump. The documents case, look, I'm a little bit more skeptical than you are, Megan, about whether

00:15:43.960 or not that actually comes to trial. There is a whole bunch of stuff there. Maybe not everything,

00:15:47.640 but there's a whole bunch of stuff there that's pretty cut and dry. There's not a lot of opinion to

00:15:54.480 have about whether or not people ask you for documents and then you attempt to try to destroy

00:15:59.480 them or obfuscate or, you know, otherwise mislead the federal government about the possession of

00:16:05.080 those. So I think- Just to clarify what you mean, Holmes, you're saying you, even though the jury

00:16:09.920 will be Trump friendly, you actually wouldn't bet on them siding with him just because it seems

00:16:14.500 pretty clear that he defied the subpoena. On at least a couple of the charges. I'm not saying the

00:16:19.340 whole thing is going to stick. It's certainly a much more friendly jury than DC or New York. No

00:16:25.000 question about it, but it ultimately, it is a court of law and laws either are broken or they're not.

00:16:30.980 I don't think I'm cynical enough at this point to say our entire justice system just is a partisan

00:16:35.840 lens. Although it does appear as though the left is trying every single day to make it so.

00:16:40.920 But I think those are real issues. And I'm sure you guys were talking about before I jumped on.

00:16:45.000 I mean, look, that's the liability that Republican voters have somehow not processed. Like nobody's

00:16:51.460 talked about this in any significant way. I mean, it is hard to imagine even in that best case scenario

00:16:56.980 for Trump that you laid out. It is very difficult for me to imagine that you're not sometime in the

00:17:01.740 mid or late summer months, maybe even into the fall, still grappling deeply with these issues in

00:17:06.920 the context of a general election in which the American people are dead split on. Right? So that's

00:17:12.340 a hell of a liability to just load on your back and pretend like it doesn't matter.

00:17:15.480 I mean, we discussed this the other day, but in 2022, we were skeptical that the whole

00:17:22.460 argument that Democrats were making of, you know, democracies on the line, Trump is an

00:17:27.660 existential threat to democracy. And these people that he endorsed are thus, you know,

00:17:31.920 threats to democracy. We were skeptical that that would be a powerful argument to make in

00:17:36.160 the face of such a terrible economy that can be on, you know, put on Biden. But it worked.

00:17:40.780 It seemed that independent voters, you know, women in the suburbs, they were completely on board with

00:17:45.840 that argument. And that's an argument that can be made whether any case is delayed or not throughout

00:17:50.020 the fall. And the polls to begin with, specifically these ones that show Trump is such a commanding

00:17:56.380 lead. Two things about them. Number one, they're with registered voters, not likely voters. So you

00:18:02.400 don't know, you know, how much how many of those folks are going to actually show up to vote and have

00:18:06.220 a say in it. And secondly, for a number of these states, I noticed it falls within the margin of

00:18:10.240 error. So it is not just like it's a settled argument of, OK, well, Trump's got the win.

00:18:17.080 And then you add in the whole gamble of are all these court cases going to be able to be delayed?

00:18:22.380 It's just a lot of things. You know what I mean? Like what we try to do in our lives as operatives is

00:18:27.760 mitigate the unknown. Yep. Right. You want as few of these variables as possible. And this is just

00:18:33.920 like layer after layer of variable. Right. You guys, if you were running Trump's world now,

00:18:38.480 you'd be taking medication, deeply intoxicated, the entire the entire things like a Rube Goldberg

00:18:46.160 experiment, like of how they get to election day and navigate all this stuff like it's it's

00:18:51.020 bonkers. But like Ashbrook makes a good point that he made on on Ruthless. The episode that's

00:18:55.740 out today is like we also have a lot of other variables that we might not have had in a typical

00:19:00.080 election. Yeah, it's true. So we talked to Kellyanne Conway this week, you know, the former

00:19:04.880 campaign manager for President Trump. And she made a point about this field in 2024. It could be

00:19:10.820 different from any field we've seen since the 1992 election when Bill Clinton made it across the

00:19:16.540 finish line with just a little over 40 percent of the vote. So if you have a situation where in

00:19:21.800 multiple states you've got RFK Jr. or Cornel West or somebody else like Joe Manchin on the ballot at the

00:19:28.120 same time, you could be running a race for 40 plus one instead of running a race for 50 plus

00:19:33.960 one. And that's also a scenario where President Trump, he's got a certain base that's sticking

00:19:39.840 with him. It's not going away no matter what. And that, you know, that's another scenario where I

00:19:45.400 think that they put some confidence in their ability to to win.

00:19:48.520 Wait, explain that. I don't understand your point. So the so so if they're 40 plus one.

00:19:54.440 Yeah. If there if there are four people on the ballot splitting the vote, it somebody you don't

00:19:59.180 need you don't need 50 plus one. You just need the most votes in that state to be able to win the

00:20:03.200 state. And if Trump gets more votes, are you saying, Ashbrook, that that like these head to head

00:20:07.620 polls of Biden versus Trump may not have that much relevance because like those independents we were

00:20:12.120 just talking about could be diluted across four candidates? That's right. And and I mean,

00:20:17.660 certainly some of the some of the Trump vote is going to fall off to RFK, but some of the Biden

00:20:21.840 vote might fall off to RFK. Some of the Biden vote might fall off to Cornel West or Joe Manchin.

00:20:27.540 And so or Jill Stein. Exactly. So so a head to head poll is not a perfect measure of a field that

00:20:34.960 includes four people. And it's not especially far fetched. I mean, you saw it happen to sitting

00:20:38.640 President George H.W. Bush, where Ross Perot siphoned off just enough to get Bill Clinton over the

00:20:43.720 finish line. Democrats blame the Wisconsin loss. I mean, the ultimate loss of Wisconsin for Hillary

00:20:49.060 Clinton on Jill Stein picking up three or four percent there. So, yeah, no, look, I think these

00:20:53.080 are all things that could factor in. But it is, again, as an operative, you go into a situation

00:20:59.600 where you have commanding 10, 15, 20 point leads on every issue that matters to the American people.

00:21:05.080 You've got a president that can't complete a sentence. And you're like, all right, hold on.

00:21:07.900 We've got to roadmap this thing because maybe we can get to 42. That's just it doesn't have to be

00:21:13.600 that hard, Megan. I guess that's the point. So here's have to be that. Here's my thinking is that

00:21:17.260 like if you can get every single one of these cases delayed and you can get voters convinced that

00:21:23.440 the democracy argument doesn't work and you can get Chairman Powell to cut rates maybe four times

00:21:28.920 and you also get Joe Manchin and RFK on the ballot in multiple states, I think we're in a good place.

00:21:35.840 Oh, God. Well, you know, I follow a lot of Trump supporters and I follow a lot of DeSantis

00:21:45.160 supporters and Nikki Haley and Vivek. You know, I try to keep it all whatever. I don't I don't know

00:21:49.020 if I have that many Christie supporters out there. But the DeSantis supporters feel strongly that

00:21:57.880 this is all going to Democrat plan, according to plan that, you know, they still very much want

00:22:05.240 Trump to be the nominee, that there's a reason these left leaning for the most part outlets continue

00:22:10.920 to do these polls. They want the news to continue coming in that Trump is leading Biden. They like

00:22:16.440 that news. They want this headline. They want this discussion. And they're depending on people like us

00:22:22.560 not looking at the next line about will the independents stay with Trump if he's convicted?

00:22:29.600 Because they want Trump. They think he's more beatable than DeSantis or Haley or anybody else.

00:22:37.200 And so like the master plan, according to a lot of these DeSantis supporters and probably Haley

00:22:41.900 supporters, too, is push Trump, push Trump, push Trump with GOP or lead the GOPers to believe he can

00:22:49.600 do it. In fact, he might be the only one who can do it. And then as soon as he has the nomination,

00:22:54.140 the rest of the time will be spent. Dinging him up even more than he has been and then convicting

00:23:02.040 him, which will eliminate the remaining independents that he needs to win.

00:23:07.120 The other reason that Democrats want Trump is because they have a severe base motivation problem

00:23:12.640 with their candidate, Joe Biden. Nobody's turning out to vote for him the way they did for Barack Obama.

00:23:17.240 So they need their people to be motivated by something. And what they're motivated by is their

00:23:21.780 hatred of Donald Trump. And so they're hoping that they can run against him because he will

00:23:26.620 get their people to the polls.

00:23:28.240 I mean, Biden himself said, you know, if Trump wasn't running, I probably wouldn't be doing this

00:23:31.700 to myself or to us.

00:23:35.020 The thing is, it's not really a conspiracy theory because it's true. I mean, everything you laid out

00:23:39.880 is 100 percent true. But, you know, where I depart a little bit from where the DeSantis camp and Haley and

00:23:46.280 others discuss all of this, I agree with the premise. The problem is, what are you going to do about it?

00:23:50.940 Yeah. Yeah. And in six, seven months from announcement day up until, you know, 30 days

00:23:56.700 or six weeks ago, nobody was making this case. Yeah. And the result of that is a whole bunch

00:24:02.980 of Republican voters that don't think any of these charges mean anything. They think it's

00:24:06.860 too. It's like I sometimes if my kids complain too much without doing anything about their problem,

00:24:14.560 I tell them that they've waived their right to complain.

00:24:17.180 There you go.

00:24:19.520 You know, you you raised it. I gave you three suggestions. You had the time to think of your

00:24:25.340 own solutions. You did none of them. And now you just want to complain again. It's a no. No.

00:24:31.320 Quality.

00:24:32.560 Yeah, no, that's just quality.

00:24:34.160 Very good. Very good mothering. And look at these Republican candidates. We have had four

00:24:40.300 debates, not to mention all the time that they have spent out on the campaign trail in front

00:24:45.720 of voters and in front of cameras at CNN on Fox and elsewhere. We in the last debate had

00:24:51.360 a whole Trump section. We had a whole electability section, which for some of them involved your

00:24:58.900 crapping the bed when it comes to polling. Trump's crushing you. Did anyone at any point

00:25:05.880 in any of those debates or appearances or what say what we just said about you cannot listen to the

00:25:14.040 polls for this reason? The independent vote is going to collapse on Trump. I know Republicans

00:25:21.420 hate the criminal charges. I DeSantis, Haley, whomever hate the criminal charges and think they're

00:25:28.260 political. But let's talk Turkey. If he gets convicted, which is a very high chance,

00:25:35.780 those independents are going to run and we're going to lose. It's too uncertain a bet. And it's

00:25:42.980 one we don't have to make. I don't remember hearing that from any of them.

00:25:47.160 No, that wasn't that hard. Maybe we should see if we can get Megyn Kelly on a tick.

00:25:51.080 I think ultimately the problem is like, for the most part, politicians don't like telling people

00:26:00.360 things they don't want to hear. That's it. And the Republican primary electorate doesn't want to

00:26:05.240 hear that stuff. Just look at the reaction Chris Christie got, you know, at the debate. But you're

00:26:09.680 absolutely right. It's like if you aren't willing to have that discussion, what the heck are you doing?

00:26:15.860 What's the point of raising all the money? What is the point of traveling to Iowa, New Hampshire,

00:26:19.940 in all of these places for a year? What is the point? Duncan, what is the point?

00:26:24.760 I don't get it. Do they want to be in Trump's cabinet? Like what's happening? Why?

00:26:28.360 I know they don't want to alienate the Trump base. OK, that could be the one. Or really,

00:26:32.900 they just want to be in his cabinet. They know he's one and they're more interested in being the next

00:26:37.400 secretary of state than they are and really seeing this thing through as a kid.

00:26:40.460 Or they're shooting for 2028 at this point.

00:26:42.800 It could be that. It could be the 20. I don't think the cabinet thing other than maybe Vivek

00:26:46.840 is a real thing with the rest of them. But this is the criticism that we had right at

00:26:51.900 the beginning when everybody announced is that it takes a certain audacity to run for president

00:26:55.840 to begin with, which means you've got to take some risks. You've got to do some things that

00:27:00.420 aren't just sort of repeating where it is that you think the Republican electorate is at the time.

00:27:04.220 There has never been a successful nominee in my memory to the Republican Party that has served

00:27:09.820 somebody else's wave to a nomination. They have their own stuff, right? Even if you look back on

00:27:15.140 George H.W. Bush coming out of the Reagan administration, he did a thousand points of

00:27:19.080 life. Very, very different than anything you heard from Ronald Reagan. He had his own brand,

00:27:22.860 his own thing. And what we saw for the first six months of this campaign was nobody doing their

00:27:27.780 own thing. I mean, maybe elements of Nikki Haley over the summer that were punctuated by the

00:27:32.580 Milwaukee debate showed a very different pathway than the one that Donald Trump had treaded through

00:27:37.500 the Republican primary electorate over the last five years. But for the most part,

00:27:40.880 Ron DeSantis is included in this. It was basically telling everybody how all the anxiety things that

00:27:46.440 they had had been concerned about are things that I've done, but never really drawing that steep

00:27:51.100 contrast into the existential danger of nominating somebody who a cannot win and what four more years

00:27:57.540 of Joe Biden presidency would mean for them as a result of that. And that's frustrating, right?

00:28:03.160 He's doing it now. The question is like, is it too late?

00:28:06.580 Yeah. No, it's an awful lot of trouble for somebody to go through just to spend four years

00:28:10.840 behind a desk at the Commerce Department. I mean, I really don't know what motivates somebody to

00:28:16.900 pursue that. I mean, maybe it's just a hard argument to make when you look at these polls and we've all

00:28:21.980 seen them. And Donald Trump is currently, currently beating Joe Biden. You know, I mean, there is part of

00:28:28.820 it is, you know, the, the, one of the people that, that I blame for this is Joe Biden being as bad as

00:28:35.440 he is. Like he is so historically unpopular that like Republicans don't feel like they have to make a

00:28:41.500 hard decision here. Right. Cause like everybody could find a way to beat Joe Biden. He's Joe Biden

00:28:47.080 after all. But the thing I keep reminding people is John Fetterman's a Senator, right? There is an actual

00:28:52.780 risk that Joe Biden wins reelection. You know, I mean, he won last time.

00:28:56.720 Yeah. I mean, you could get beat with a cadaver. Anybody can, right? I mean, if Republicans

00:29:00.500 races in Alabama, you can lose damn near anything. Right now, the media, I think that they're really

00:29:07.740 hoping that Biden steps aside and someone like Newsom gets in that the left-wing media understands

00:29:13.340 that Biden is vulnerable. He's too old. He's too infirm. And they see these polls. So the press

00:29:19.140 coverage of him has not been all that defensive lately. You know, you can see them kind of nudge,

00:29:24.380 trying to nudge him. Like maybe it's time for somebody else. Maybe you could go. We've talked

00:29:29.000 before about like the Isikoff piece and other prominent Democrat figures, Axelrod, who seemed

00:29:34.040 to be like, it's really up to him at this point, but Hey, maybe for the good of the country. Well,

00:29:39.420 as soon as they realize he's doing it, he didn't listen. It's Biden. They're going to rally around him

00:29:48.040 just like they always do. And the media coverage is going to go right back to, he's the leader we

00:29:54.120 need. Bidenomics is working. Here's another Black Lives Matter case that we're going to put on loop

00:30:00.180 to upset everybody. Everyone's radical. Pick your case, like the abortion case, which is in the news

00:30:05.340 today. We can talk about all that stuff's going to be on loop. The media is going to do what it does

00:30:09.860 because there's zero chance their questions about Joe Biden will continue past the point when they know

00:30:15.760 he's their nominee. Yeah. I just don't think this is very hard to figure out. I mean,

00:30:20.520 you don't have to be a conspiracy theorist. This is just the way it's worked. Right. I mean,

00:30:24.220 Mitt Romney, a woman misogynist to stole your job and was the worst human being of all time.

00:30:30.820 I mean, that's the way that they colored Mitt Romney. Imagine what's what's coming here. And

00:30:36.080 the reconsolidation of a democratic base is inevitable. It's not. I mean, anybody out there

00:30:40.540 saying that a Republican nominee for president, whether it's Donald Trump or anybody else is going to get

00:30:44.780 35, 40 percent of the black vote, which is what they're counting on right now in a lot of these polls

00:30:48.520 that show him leading, they're nuts. I mean, I'm just telling you, that's not going to happen.

00:30:53.340 It's just not going to happen. And they've got huge demographic gaps where young voters who

00:30:58.500 certainly aren't going to vote for a Republican like Donald Trump are now either in the independent

00:31:04.200 category or they're not checking a box or they just haven't consolidated yet around Joe Biden.

00:31:09.380 Like, what do we think is going to happen when Donald Trump, to your point, Ashbrook,

00:31:12.240 nobody motivates that voting base like Donald Trump does. I mean, the only demographic that

00:31:18.580 he turns out better than than primary Republicans is primary voting Democrats, young ones. And so

00:31:24.780 you don't need to do a lot to see how this becomes problematic in a hurry.

00:31:28.840 And specifically, that's like the why the White House has given so much resources to tick

00:31:33.000 tock of all things. They have like a tick tock division in the White House that they're going

00:31:36.720 to activate and just smart or young voters. Yeah. Yeah. And it's so much smarter than the

00:31:42.800 Republicans are. Ashbrook, like why? Vivek is right. Like you can you can criticize tick tock,

00:31:48.780 but these guys should all be on tick tock, trying to reach young voters. I we can hate the platform,

00:31:54.860 but while it's alive and well and being used by this entire group of Americans, why would Republicans

00:32:00.280 completely ignore it? Well, they should have banned it is what they should. Yeah. Well,

00:32:04.860 I think that's the thing is, like, at the end of the day, that platform is and we have seen,

00:32:11.500 especially in light of the attack on Israel of it's a Chinese, you know, Communist Party

00:32:16.960 government propaganda tool like they are essentially using it to divide Americans in plain light. Like

00:32:21.660 it's been we've had clear scientists who have shown specifically that it is designed to divide

00:32:28.160 America in the wake of Israel's being attacked by Hamas. You saw anti-Semitism. They said I saw

00:32:35.400 studies where the percentage of people who start harboring anti-Semitic beliefs increases by the

00:32:41.680 amount of time they're exposed to on tick tock. Oh, yeah. And it's it's really just an add on for

00:32:46.760 them because their control over the mainstream media is absolute. And you touched on this a second ago,

00:32:51.880 saying exactly what's going to happen if Joe Biden's the nominee, they're going to lay down the palm

00:32:56.900 leaves for him to come into Washington, D.C. again. And if Donald Trump is not our nominee,

00:33:02.100 let's say it's like Nikki Haley. All of a sudden they're going to say, oh, well, you know what?

00:33:05.720 She's actually the worst fascist we've ever seen. I found this like they're going to frame

00:33:11.380 absolutely any Republican in the worst possible light. And that's a great advantage for them in a

00:33:17.560 lot of ways, except new media, the Internet. Thanks to Elon Musk, people are allowed to speak their mind

00:33:24.260 on X now. Thanks to people like you, Megan. There is information getting out so people can feel like

00:33:29.480 they have the they can have the facts that they can use to make their own decisions. So I I still I mean,

00:33:36.700 but still we're in a stronger spot. We're in a stronger spot from a media perspective than we have been

00:33:41.260 in my memory anyway. But it is four years ago. Yeah. The question ultimately, though, is not like what

00:33:48.280 they're going to do. It's the baseline and the ceiling of the candidate that they're going to

00:33:52.520 try to do it to. And, you know, Donald Trump's ceiling like the lowest possible or the highest

00:33:58.580 possible amount of support is by far and away the lowest of any Republican in this field by far and

00:34:04.020 away. Now, his basement is the highest of anybody in terms of Republican support. So therein lies the

00:34:10.780 problem. The catch 22 within the Republican universe right now is that you've got almost by virtue of

00:34:15.760 just showing up the highest amount of votes and the most likely to come out of a primary,

00:34:19.860 but also the absolute lowest in terms of potential votes so that even the top end of that is very

00:34:26.020 malleable with an independent electorate that has proven not just in polls in 2022, in 2020 and in

00:34:34.040 2018, the last three elections to be very Trump skeptical. And I just don't you don't need to recreate

00:34:40.480 the wheel to just look at the data and say, well, that looks like it could be problematic.

00:34:44.200 And I think that the economic argument alone won't get the job done because 2018, we had a

00:34:50.280 roaring economy and still got demolished. Yeah. Yeah. But then we had COVID. Then we had COVID. I

00:34:56.640 mean, and that was that hurt people instantaneously. Of course, they were forced to stay home and they

00:35:01.560 couldn't go to school and all that stuff. But on that Wall Street Journal poll yesterday,

00:35:05.680 we talked about it on the show, but it showed I'm trying to pull up the numbers, a dramatic,

00:35:10.800 dramatic difference on how people felt about the economic policies. Here it is. Hold on a second.

00:35:18.660 Let's see. 23% of voters said Biden's policies have helped them. 23. 49.

00:35:27.800 Bidenomics. 49% said Trump's policies had helped them. So almost half the electorate said Trump's

00:35:35.360 policies have helped them. About one fifth, one fourth almost said Biden's has helped them. 53%

00:35:42.680 said Biden's policies had hurt them. A majority. Only 37% said that for Trump. That is the piece of

00:35:51.020 the Wall Street Journal poll, which I said yesterday, that is everything right there. That's everything

00:35:55.580 that David Axelrod is worried about too. He spoke out about the Wall Street Journal poll saying,

00:36:02.220 it is very, very dark. That's the double very from Axelrod. Very, very dark for the Biden campaign.

00:36:12.000 He said, you know, job approval down, ratings generally down. Most of the comparatives with

00:36:18.200 Trump, not good. This is, he went on a podcast called Hacks on Tap with Robert Gibbs, former Trump

00:36:26.960 guy and another guy. And so, you know, we're talking about 37% approval rating right now for

00:36:31.860 Joe Biden. 61% had an unfavorable view of Joe Biden. So Holmes, I think this leads the Republican

00:36:40.020 voters to think, yes, we realize Trump's got unique problems and traditionally would be considered to

00:36:45.980 have this ceiling, right? Because you look at 2020. But, but, but look at the Wall Street Journal poll,

00:36:53.640 one fourth of voters, you know, versus all the voters who think Trump, a majority say Trump helped

00:37:00.580 them. This record low approval rating for the sitting president. Does that not, if it doesn't

00:37:05.820 raise Trump's ceiling, does it not lower Biden's to at Trump's level or below? Oh, I mean, look,

00:37:12.440 it's a battle of the midgets in terms of where your political standing is no question about it. But,

00:37:17.320 but look, those numbers now is little people. Okay. You know, I always come to you for my

00:37:24.740 political correctness, Megan. I appreciate it. No, but look, those numbers are not entirely

00:37:31.180 dissimilar from the exit polls that we saw in 2022. I mean, the reality is, is that Republicans won every

00:37:36.640 single measure, except the issue of abortion, won every single issue in front of the American people

00:37:43.060 in 22 by double digits, the economic arc, the crime argument, the border argument, all the things

00:37:49.700 that come with the border argument, fentanyl, human trafficking, all of that. And they prosecuted the

00:37:53.920 case about as dang well as you could, because they just destroyed it in terms of people being with

00:37:58.620 them. And then ultimately all those people that agreed with them voted Democrat. Why did they do

00:38:01.980 that? They voted Democrat because they still have a huge hesitancy about supporting Donald Trump.

00:38:07.500 And what Smug was talking about earlier, which we were very dismissive of in 22, was that all of the

00:38:12.860 post-election shenanigans, all of the January 6th stuff, all the chaos that involved there,

00:38:18.140 we thought like, you know, people are going to focus on their own pocketbook here. They're not

00:38:21.480 going to be caught up in whatever CNN's breaking news of the day is. We're wrong. We're wrong.

00:38:27.500 Because there was a very significant part of the electorate that resides in suburban America that is

00:38:32.100 a high income, high education voter that Republicans have traditionally used for the last 20 years

00:38:36.920 to get to 50 plus one that have been since 2018 in the Democratic column. And they are not going

00:38:43.980 anywhere. They still have that same hesitancy, despite the fact that they agree. They're going

00:38:47.940 to show up in those polls saying, yes, Biden sucks. We hate him. He's terrible. It's also the same

00:38:52.800 people, by the way, that show up in that 70% Venn diagram of American people that don't want either

00:38:57.700 of these guys. It's very, very unprecedented from that standpoint. But you shouldn't look at how

00:39:03.200 somebody feels about issue sets right now to extrapolate about whether or not your own candidate

00:39:09.640 is in a stronger position because we've seen this. It's happened in the last, like traditionally

00:39:15.240 speaking, that is right. It's the old Carville. It's the economy, stupid. That has traditionally

00:39:20.820 been right. It hasn't been right in the last three cycles.

00:39:24.840 Something that I've been doing is spending time looking at the ads, the messaging that Obama was

00:39:30.840 doing for his reelect. Right. And he was highlighting specifically economic numbers of

00:39:35.900 like, oh, the average American is paying X and X less for filling a prescription or paying

00:39:40.920 X and X, you know, less for their day to day needs showing that, OK, we're getting out of

00:39:47.600 a recession. There's no talk of that from from Biden. I think the Democrats have completely

00:39:52.420 rejiggered their message completely to social issues of like. Right. Like every issue like you

00:39:58.740 just described, the Harvard president. Oh, it's white supremacy to try to correct this.

00:40:02.040 You know, like everything is an existential threat to them in the sense that this is white

00:40:06.620 supremacy. This is bigotry to make people terrified, feeling that like, OK, Donald Trump

00:40:12.520 and Republicans want to kill me. They'll say like, you know, trans lives are at risk if we

00:40:16.320 let Ben Shapiro speak on campus. Everything has to be amped up to them to be a life or death

00:40:21.280 situation. So they avoid thinking about, wait a minute, I'm paying eleven thousand more

00:40:25.380 for food this year than I did in twenty twenty one. And they can't. The Democrats can't talk

00:40:29.280 about economics because it's such a losing message for them from that Wall Street Journal

00:40:33.580 poll. Megan, Bidenomics polls, fave on fave, twenty nine fifty two. Oh, my Lord. How's that

00:40:42.300 going, Joe? The lean in philosophy on Bidenomics. Well, that's the thing that Wall Street Journal

00:40:47.120 poll over the weekend showed in a general election matchup of the existing Republicans running for

00:40:52.840 office right now. Nikki Haley crushes way more than anybody else. She was 17 points up

00:40:57.880 over Biden. Everyone else Trump had he was up over Biden by some single digit number.

00:41:03.380 Ron DeSantis was tied. And yet that's not how this works, because that's just like a hypothetical.

00:41:11.260 This is how it could be. You'd actually have to get like the Trump base, the people who are

00:41:15.660 supporting Vivek Ramaswamy hate her, hate Nikki Haley for whatever reason. And I've asked some

00:41:23.480 of them, like, explain to me what it is that really drives you crazy. And I think it goes

00:41:27.420 to largely what I was asking him about her about in my electability question. She's too tied

00:41:32.340 in with the establishment, the banks, with the billionaire. She's going to sell out. She

00:41:35.980 won't represent the little guy, which is what they think they are. And so 17 points up over

00:41:42.380 over over Biden sounds good on paper. But does the Trump base stay home if it's somebody like

00:41:48.400 that? Like, I think they'd go out for Vivek. We all know it's not going to be Vivek, but I think

00:41:53.160 they would go out for Vivek. I think they might actually go out for Ron DeSantis, too. They're

00:41:57.860 kind of pissed at him right now because he's running against Trump. But in the end, if Trump died

00:42:01.640 and DeSantis got it, I think they'd support him. If Trump died and Nikki Haley got it, I don't think

00:42:07.760 they'd support her. So it's like, to your point, these things are on paper. They're one thing,

00:42:13.920 but what is the real meaning and what's actually happening on the ground? Tell us. Go ahead,

00:42:18.220 Josh. Well, it's a different coalition. And that's where I think an awful lot of people within

00:42:23.080 the Republican Party, within the operative class, do not have a firm grasp on how they were going to

00:42:28.600 prosecute this election in the primary at all. Because everybody's working off of a primary electorate

00:42:34.320 that was built since 2016 entirely by Donald Trump. That is not the same segment of voters

00:42:39.680 that showed up in droves in 2014 to support Republicans. In fact, in many places, it is

00:42:45.180 entirely different. You saw congressional districts that were held by Democrats in rural areas in 2014,

00:42:50.660 and then Republicans smoked suburban areas in 2014. And you fast forward and it's the exact opposite.

00:42:57.860 It doesn't mean that all of those suburban voters have just somehow taken leave of their senses and

00:43:01.940 they're now like left-wing lunatics. No, they've got a problem with the Trump electorate as is.

00:43:06.200 And the question is whether or not they're going to participate in any meaningful way in a Republican

00:43:11.160 primary electorate. There's no question that they are participating in a general electorate.

00:43:16.320 I mean, part of the problem Republicans have in midterms is that that suburban electorate shows up at

00:43:21.240 78 percent. And in midterms, they swapped them out for a rural electorate that shows up at 57.

00:43:27.480 That's why my entire lifetime, midterms have been pretty good for Republicans until the last two midterms.

00:43:31.640 Because the coalition changed. But you don't have to accept that. What you have to do is make a case

00:43:36.780 to voters. People don't just sit at home in silos and wait for their silo to be called to go up and

00:43:43.080 vote. They're dynamic. They think differently. You have to have a message that mobilizes that maybe

00:43:47.400 this is something that's different, that I identify more with than the current iteration of

00:43:52.780 the Republican Party. And thus far, there's been precious little talk about that.

00:43:56.660 I think that's an excellent point. Huge point is I think

00:43:59.340 too many folks have been fixated on politics and how we've had coalitions since 2016. I think a lot of

00:44:07.420 the operatives don't know a time before 2016. They don't know about 2014 being a monster wave where

00:44:13.000 we took the Senate and just crushed Democrats coast to coast. So their idea of what the voter base looks

00:44:19.540 like is incredibly static. They don't see how it changes over time. And they don't see, let's say

00:44:24.740 Nikki is on the general election ballot. Well, she's picking up a ton more of these independent

00:44:29.640 voters and has a lot less baggage. And Dems. And Dems. I mean, the point is the coalition changes.

00:44:36.440 Well, do you remember ahead of 2016, I think it was Chuck Schumer. It was somebody,

00:44:42.040 a prominent Democrat, made the argument because people were starting to notice there is this rural

00:44:47.320 vote that is switching to Donald Trump. And famously he said, for every one rural voter,

00:44:53.580 we pick up two in the Philly suburbs. And he was wrong then. But as we've seen over time,

00:44:59.240 that is what has happened to the coalitions. They have changed. Nikki Haley widens the aperture

00:45:04.280 and gives us an opportunity, I think, to play back into some of those suburban areas, which

00:45:08.900 look, I don't like making a trade for voters ever. You know, I want the Republican coalition to be as

00:45:14.560 large as possible, but you cannot deny these suburban areas are extremely vote rich and raw vote totals.

00:45:20.360 You're talking tens of thousands of votes. When you're talking statewide about winning a state

00:45:25.160 or the electoral college, it matters a ton. All I can think of, this is not right,

00:45:31.280 exactly the right analogy, but all I can think of is like the husband who's at home, the would-be

00:45:37.640 husband, and he's choosing between the two women. And like, there's the one woman who's very

00:45:41.400 unattractive and kind of difficult to listen to and is constantly nagging at you and yelling at you

00:45:46.780 and causing trouble in your life. But if you, if you marry that woman, um, you're going to have

00:45:52.740 like great kids. They're going to, your life's going to be better. They're going to be easy to

00:45:58.180 raise your, you know, the children next level could be really good. Then you've got the really hot one.

00:46:03.900 She loves it. That's just crazy. She loves to have the turn in the sack, everybody.

00:46:07.820 This is the biggest struggle for men in life. Why are you doing this?

00:46:11.140 You have tons of fun with her. You enjoy spending time with her. But if you marry that one, there's

00:46:16.480 something in the family gene pool that's going to wind up really weird at the next level. And you're

00:46:20.140 going to have to live with a lot of issues.

00:46:22.280 Because sometimes you've got to make poor decisions.

00:46:24.020 Who does the man cheating us into a belt sander?

00:46:30.760 I can marry guys. So you want to make a poor decision? The crazy Trump voters are like,

00:46:36.560 I get that like net net. I'd probably be better off if I married the one I do not find attractive.

00:46:43.700 Nikki. I can fix her. I want the hot one. I want the hot Trump. That's what they're thinking.

00:46:48.520 Make this work. I think it all. It all comes down to which in laws are richer.

00:46:52.840 You know, that can really tip the balance. I think you're like, I think you're right.

00:46:57.180 It's a great analogy. I think you're right. I think there's something else that is more

00:47:01.740 practical in trying to understand the motivation of the Trump voters who want to stick with Donald

00:47:06.120 Trump. It's like, look, they lived through the Russia collusion hoax and everything that

00:47:12.340 happened when he was president. They feel like he was slighted and that is part of his presidency

00:47:16.000 was stolen, you know, by the media and the Democratic establishment that, you know,

00:47:22.660 tried to frame him for something he obviously didn't do. And so they're not ready to throw

00:47:25.980 him away. I think also for them. And if they see these these cases as a weaponization of

00:47:31.900 the DOJ and all of those things, their thought process is if if we don't fight that system

00:47:38.460 with this guy, then it's then that system will win forever.

00:47:42.640 They'll do it. And and I I sympathize with with both of those things. Here's what I would

00:47:49.980 say in response. You know, if Donald Trump had tipped his cap after 2020 and said, we'll

00:47:55.880 get him next time, he'd be leading by twenty five point.

00:47:59.100 No question. And if he didn't wave that document at Mar-a-Lago in front of people being recorded

00:48:04.900 saying, I shouldn't have this, I could have declassified this as president and I didn't.

00:48:10.020 Now we have a problem. And the aides like the like the deep. Can we turn off the recorder

00:48:17.580 and rewind a little like the deep state, like the deep state didn't set him up for for that.

00:48:22.960 He did it to himself. No, he did it to himself. You know, so like it's he is the hot chick,

00:48:30.060 but there are some issues there that are outside of your control.

00:48:35.300 I think it was best said on the Lebowski. How are you going to keep Bunny down on the

00:48:39.620 farm when she's seen Carl Hunkus? Yeah, I love that.

00:48:44.920 All right. On that note, we'll take a quick break. We'll come back as the guys from Ruthless

00:48:50.320 stay with us for the full show. So happy to have the fellas with us today.

00:48:53.980 So guys, CNN has been doing a series of town halls with the candidates. They did DeSantis

00:49:02.800 on Tuesday. He did decide to go after Trump. He's been getting a little bit more aggressive

00:49:08.160 towards Trump lately. Not that aggressive. It kind of reminds me of Ted Cruz. Remember how Ted Cruz is

00:49:14.560 like, I'm going to finally tell you exactly what I think about Donald Trump. He's absolutely disgusting.

00:49:19.440 He's blah, blah, blah. I was like, OK, it's too late for that. Like, it's too late. Anyway,

00:49:25.940 last night they had on Vivek Ramaswamy. And I realized that Vivek is having a really fun time

00:49:33.960 spinning a bunch of yarns about everyone's favorite conspiracies. I mean, he really liked it from 9-11.

00:49:40.420 January 6th was an inside job. I mean, there's just that's OK. I'm sure there were some federal

00:49:46.160 agents there. They haven't been honest with us about how many. The FBI director was very cagey

00:49:51.040 when asked and wouldn't give the numbers. OK, so was it FBI agents bear spraying cops in the face,

00:49:59.340 pummeling them with flagpole? Like, all right, you can say they had a role and it's bullshit and

00:50:04.580 we're entitled to know exactly what the role was without going full Alex Jones. But in any event,

00:50:09.920 that's for his voters and everybody else to pass judgment on. But here's what is so annoying,

00:50:15.100 that Abby Phillip is annoying. She is such an interrupter. Like, shut the F up. Let him make

00:50:22.180 his point. If you want to fact check him later, then do shut up, though. CNN has got an aversion

00:50:27.980 to letting the words come out of the candidates mouths. And it's really a disservice, even if you

00:50:34.440 don't agree with what he's saying. Yeah. You invited him. Let him say it. Then do your fact check. Here's

00:50:40.400 just a little bit of what happened. The reality is we know that there were federal law enforcement

00:50:46.580 agents in that field. We don't know how many. I think it's shameful. If I may finish just

00:50:50.300 answer. Well, let me just I'm going to I'm going to go ahead and interrupt you here because

00:50:53.660 because I know that the establishment doesn't approve of this. You're saying that there were

00:50:56.680 federal agents. You're saying that there were federal agents. This is important to talk about.

00:51:00.440 You're saying there were federal agents in the crowd on January 6th. There is no evidence that

00:51:06.700 there were federal agents in the crowd on January 6th. So why before Congress, when pressed on what

00:51:11.580 the number was, they didn't say there were none. They just couldn't say how many there were.

00:51:14.320 So you're saying that there's no that you have not seen any evidence. So we've seen multiple

00:51:18.460 informants suggesting that there were. We know people. We know people were FBI informants.

00:51:23.180 Is there any evidence? May I just finish this and you can come back and question.

00:51:26.680 Well, let me clarify. I know it's very uncomfortable for you. I'm going to clarify.

00:51:30.440 This is this. For listening audience, Holmes has got his hand over his face. That's how I feel,

00:51:36.600 too. Go ahead, Ashbrook. Here's the thing. We give this guy a really hard time on the program.

00:51:41.980 Michael Duncan, chief among us. But he is paying for that microphone. He's like the one guy in the

00:51:47.940 race who is literally paying out of his own pocket to be in the race. So he has the right to be able

00:51:53.000 to say what it is that he wants to say. And I think he I think he came off looking better.

00:51:59.300 I agree that exchange, like given the circumstances of like how terrible a job she was doing,

00:52:04.740 he made the best of it. I mean, like, it's insane that he had the situation of where

00:52:09.800 someone from CNN makes him look better by like saying, well, the facts may not agree with you,

00:52:15.840 but it's so terrible about it and gives him the opportunity multiple times to dunk on her and

00:52:20.340 being like, OK, since you're not going to allow me to finish, it's clear that you don't want me

00:52:23.720 discussing it. It just adds more weight to his argument. If it seems like he's being censored,

00:52:29.320 that's exactly that's exactly the thing. It's that Streisand, you know, theory where like you

00:52:34.400 try to suppress images of her house. And so then everybody Googles where her house is. And so

00:52:38.300 everybody learned something they didn't even care in the first place. You know, it's the same thing

00:52:43.820 with Vivek because like he's making a point. And I mean, we could get into all the things that are

00:52:49.180 wrong and the point he's trying to make. But when he's you interrupt him, you're giving him exactly

00:52:52.720 what he wants. Yeah. Which is now it's like, oh, well, I must be on. I must be on to something

00:52:56.660 because they don't want me saying what are we hiding? Yeah. What's out there? Right. Which is

00:53:00.560 I, too, I'm leaning in. Yeah. She's trying to censor what he's saying. I'm like, what's,

00:53:06.180 you know, what's he saying? Why is she so averse to it? Like his words, his words are so vile. They

00:53:12.140 cannot be uttered. They can be uttered. Abby, let him finish. You invited him there. Let him make his damn

00:53:18.100 point. And if you watch the whole clip, it's not like he was going on forever. Like it was a

00:53:22.360 reasonable amount of time he took to set up his point. Just fucking let him make it. Okay. Here's

00:53:27.180 the second thing that's bothering me. Right. There's no quicker way for me to support someone

00:53:33.280 than CNN being an ass to them. Like the same. That sounds like someone who I would agree with.

00:53:38.880 A hundred percent. I'm ready to vote for him now just because of that. Yeah. Oliver Darcy of CNN

00:53:44.820 doesn't feel as we do. Here's what, you know, remember the CNNers had a complete meltdown when

00:53:51.520 they did a town hall with Trump. Similar, similar reaction by him. This is what he wrote. Handing

00:53:58.500 Ramaswamy a microphone and putting him on a stage, a fixed, wait for it, with CNN's iconic branding

00:54:06.100 to answer audience questions, helps validate him and provides oxygen to the menacing wildfire of

00:54:16.360 delusions. He has pushed into the public discourse. The notion that the infotainer who CNN has reported

00:54:23.100 struggles for relevance as he pulls in the low single digits and remains exceedingly unlikely to

00:54:29.020 be the Republican party's nominee deserves an hour long national platform to sell his personal brand

00:54:34.560 and insidious talking points to the masses taxes the imagination. Oliver Darcy has pronounced

00:54:41.580 Vivek should no longer be platformed. He, even though he is pulling 5% in the latest poll, he's look,

00:54:48.440 we all know he's, he's not going to win unless something catastrophic happens to everybody who's

00:54:52.180 polling way, way above him, but he has pronounced it over and said Vivek should no longer be platformed

00:54:58.200 because of CNN's iconic brand. This is where I wish we had the board going because the statement

00:55:07.180 that you read from Oliver Darcy would be a perfect overlay to a West Wing thing, wouldn't it? Yeah.

00:55:12.260 This just like weird fictional place that libs live that, you know, you can just sort of platform who

00:55:18.940 you want and talk about the virtues of these things and other people should not be able to. But I think

00:55:24.600 honestly, in both of these cases, Megan, there's still a cadre of journalists and this falls into

00:55:29.560 like the old corporate journalism place. And this would be familiar to you having dealt with it in,

00:55:36.760 in your life and career that their constituency is entirely made up of each other. And what they want

00:55:43.980 to do is impress their fellow journos. It's not really about informing the actual electorate.

00:55:51.140 It's not about news. We know that for damn sure on CNN. It's about impressing their like-minded

00:55:57.240 journo colleagues who, you know, either would blash, just blanch at, at any sort of suggestion

00:56:03.780 that Rip Vivek Ramaswamy makes in public. And so they can say, well, I've pushed him hard and I've,

00:56:09.080 and everybody can say, yes, you did. You were very, very good job on that. And, and Oliver Darcy kind

00:56:13.100 of follows into the same category. It's disgusting that that's still where there is a segment of media,

00:56:17.820 but yeah, I mean, look, it shows up more often than it doesn't on these major stations.

00:56:22.360 It was pretty precious. I mean, the iconic brand. What is that? The one that Don Lemon built

00:56:26.760 that Jeff Zucker built? Is that like, walk us through it. That the Malaysian flight went missing

00:56:32.900 into a black hole. Is that your iconic brand? Yeah.

00:56:35.880 Russia gate, your COVID, your fake Chris Cuomo coming out of the basement, pretending he had not been

00:56:41.280 out. Like, and you put it on TV, like it was real and not an acting job. That's your iconic. Okay.

00:56:45.980 Um, don't, don't forget about the coverage of the poop boat. They did like a year long coverage

00:56:51.820 of that ship. Yeah. Yeah. The cruise ship. Yeah. Not to mention Chris Cuomo, like reporting on his

00:56:58.600 brother, having his brother on giving him a total pass on all the COVID me. Okay. Iconic. I mean,

00:57:04.720 maybe, but not for the reasons you think, uh, all right. They continue to go on. They're trying to

00:57:08.960 turn things around. I look forward to seeing whether it happens. I got to get to this Kate Cox story. So

00:57:13.880 she's not a household name yet, but she's starting to become one. I mentioned before the Democrats

00:57:18.600 absolutely are going to find it's, it's not going to be necessarily a George Floyd, but it,

00:57:24.040 trust me, it could be some, something just like George Floyd. Um, police work is ugly and doesn't

00:57:31.300 always make good headlines. And it certainly doesn't make good video. And if you want to make demons out

00:57:36.420 of the cops on any given day, you could probably find a videotape to do it. And they do it. They do it

00:57:40.760 every election year. It's going to happen this year. You mark my words. We've got 10 months to

00:57:44.260 go. There'll be something they have to wait until we're a little closer to the vote, but it's going

00:57:47.520 to happen. And another possibility for those offerings is the abortion lane. You guys pointed

00:57:53.420 it out before. That is the one issue on which the Dems continue to beat the GOP in the exit polling,

00:57:59.280 in the real polling, in public opinion in general, and enter the case of Kate Cox. Now Kate Cox

00:58:05.820 is down in Texas and she's a mom who's got two children already. And she is pregnant with her

00:58:13.960 third child and found out that the child has, um, a health issue and that the baby has no chance of

00:58:24.340 living outside of the womb. That it's in more, they say in more than 95% of the cases, babies, uh,

00:58:31.060 with trisomy 18 die. Uh, either they die stillbirth or they die moments after they're delivered.

00:58:37.800 And you know, the heartbreak for the mother is enormous. When you know, at 20 weeks, you're

00:58:43.960 carrying a baby that's going to die either while she's in you or while you're delivering her. My God.

00:58:49.840 I mean, I, I totally understand why a mother in that situation would consider ending the pregnancy.

00:58:55.200 And I realized that there are hardcore pro-lifers who are like, nope, you got to do it. You got to give

00:59:00.120 birth to the baby. And if she dies moments thereafter, life is life. I, I definitely do

00:59:06.280 not feel this way. I cannot imagine the psychological torture for a mother understanding

00:59:11.920 you're, you're carrying this baby. You're nurturing this baby. You're falling in love with this baby

00:59:15.600 day after day. And, and in over 95% of cases, she will die the moment she's coming out of you,

00:59:22.180 or she will be stillborn. My God, that's a form of torture for, for what, for a baby that's going to

00:59:28.920 die. The only question is at what moment, um, with respect to the people who disagree with me,

00:59:34.800 but that's, that's where I've come down on it. And in any event, Kate Cox wants to do this. She

00:59:40.200 wants to have the abortion in Texas, but the law does not allow it. And, um, you can only have an

00:59:46.420 abortion like this under certain medical exceptions. And it would have to be, she would have to show that,

00:59:54.380 for example, she wasn't going to be able to have children in the future, like a, a pretty significant

00:59:58.780 medical risk to the mother. And the court found she didn't show that, that she, she did not show

01:00:06.880 that first, the lower court said she did, but then she, that lower court judge got overruled by the

01:00:12.360 Texas higher court that said, look, you're saying you have hypertension. You're saying you've already

01:00:19.680 had two C-sections and being forced to have a third C-section, which could happen in an emergency

01:00:23.880 delivery like this could cause you not to have future children. That's not good enough. There

01:00:29.300 are lots of mothers who actually did have to have, or did chose to have three C-sections, like they're

01:00:32.680 not buying it. And it's turned into a big deal. She went on the New York times, the daily podcast

01:00:37.840 today. Here's a bit of the exchange. One of those last ultrasounds I had done by my mother-in-law

01:00:44.380 asked, even if somehow the results came back and this was not full pricey 18, is the situation

01:00:51.840 severe? And the doctor said, yes, it's severe. We asked best case scenario, how much time might

01:00:58.860 we have? And she said, could be an hour, could be a week. I knew for my health and for the best

01:01:06.700 chance at another baby and for the pain every day of carrying a baby and wondering, you don't feel

01:01:12.740 her kick, wondering if her heart has stopped. You know, it's always in the back of your mind.

01:01:17.340 I love and I want this baby so badly. There's nobody that loves and wants this baby girl more

01:01:23.220 than I do. But there's no outcomes at the end of this where I take home a healthy baby girl.

01:01:32.380 When the Texas Supreme Court ruled against her, she left the state and we believe she's gotten an

01:01:37.300 abortion in another state. But this is a big story and it's going to get bigger. The social

01:01:44.140 media lefties went nuts with it yesterday because Ann Coulter tweeted something out to the effect of

01:01:49.460 we've gone from being empathetic toward the life of the child to being totally apathetic to the life of

01:01:56.080 the mother and child. Something like that was more eloquent than what I just said.

01:02:00.020 Republicans have a massive problem on their hands if this is what the next 10 months look like,

01:02:07.080 you guys. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. What do you make of it? It's just absolutely heartbreaking.

01:02:13.200 And, you know, as a parent, you put yourself in that situation. You can't even barely draw breath.

01:02:17.300 I mean, it's it's I can't even imagine what that family's going through. But I think this is in terms

01:02:22.880 of a political problem. It's one for precisely these reasons. It's going to stick around for a

01:02:28.200 little while because, you know, we went for 40 years having one sort of Roe v. Wade standpoint of

01:02:35.720 how you judge whether abortions are available in this country. And there are an awful lot of us who

01:02:41.520 thought that was wrongly decided. And it was rightly remanded back to states like Texas to make their

01:02:45.960 own laws. What's happened as a result of that is you've entered a new category of legislation in all

01:02:51.600 of these states. That is what like any issue that is being litigated for the first time in a long

01:02:58.420 time is imperfect at best. And there are scenarios that like this one right here that really need to

01:03:06.360 be thought through and need to be understood and understood that there is compassion on all sides. This

01:03:11.700 is not just like coming down on on on high from saying, nope, these are the only situations that we can

01:03:19.800 ever foresee this being done. Well, obviously, I don't think there's an awful lot of people that

01:03:24.620 would disagree with what this woman is saying. I just don't. I don't think there's an awful lot

01:03:29.220 of women. Now, there are some for sure. But the question is, how do you litigate this thing over

01:03:34.060 time? Do we get to a point where you have consensus in every state or best you can? And right now you

01:03:39.960 don't. You have some states. I mean, look, Virginia is one of them, right, where you can basically have

01:03:43.480 right up until birth that that you can have an abortion that is equally disgusting. And they have

01:03:52.620 to figure out Republicans have to figure out how you litigate this issue and legislate upon it to a

01:03:59.320 point where you have found consensus and you can actually put this issue into a place where it's not

01:04:05.740 constantly thrown open, exposing the worst fears of young women, young couples, you know, parents like

01:04:13.860 this that we're talking about, because that's where we're at right now. And a lot of these states are just

01:04:17.580 grappling with it. And it's imperfect. Yeah, Democrats have. I'll just say I'll give you the

01:04:23.140 floor. But I will say this, like DeSantis in Florida signed that six week abortion ban. But it's got

01:04:27.840 exceptions. Of course, there's always a life exception. But it's also got exceptions for severe fetal

01:04:33.020 abnormalities. I mean, he's not saying you can abort your child if it's like it's missing a finger in a

01:04:38.140 severe fetal abnormalities. It would include trisomy 18. This the Texas law is different. And so that

01:04:46.000 you've got the human element that really will pull on the heartstrings of most thinking human beings

01:04:51.700 who understand abortion is like it can be very fraught, but who also already see Republicans

01:04:59.440 on abortion legislation as potentially getting too authoritarian, like overreaching? You go ahead.

01:05:06.600 All I was going to add was the Democrats have a responsibility here, too, because if you listen to

01:05:11.080 them, there is no there's no common ground that they're interested in finding at all. I mean, this

01:05:16.840 is a human issue on so many different sides. It's an emotional issue on so many different levels.

01:05:21.940 And you have Republicans who are saying, let's let's find some common ground. And Democrats are like,

01:05:27.080 no, we won't even talk about it. If like the Virginia case that Josh mentioned, where I don't

01:05:34.000 know if you remember this video with the Democrat governor at the time talking about, yes, you know,

01:05:39.360 post birth abortion. So like if Democrats are just going to, you know, defend that indefensible

01:05:45.520 position over and over and over again, we're never going to reach common ground to it to some sort of

01:05:50.300 standard that everybody agrees. But how is that an answer to this? Because you're down in Texas where

01:05:56.540 they've got a Republican government. They could have passed what they wanted. They did. They passed

01:06:00.300 this. Obviously, the law is inadequate. The law is inadequate. I think, you know, Democrats realize

01:06:07.740 that they want to highlight instances like this because they know they lose on arguments like

01:06:13.760 abortion up to, you know, day of delivery. And they know they lose when the public sees

01:06:20.080 demonstrations, which, you know, you have these activists screaming like shout your abortion to

01:06:24.160 celebrate it. This is a case where, like she said, she loves that child. She wishes this wasn't

01:06:29.680 happening. And so they want to highlight situations where the law fails to understand the human element

01:06:35.160 like this, because like Holmes says, this has not been, you know, this policy is very fresh.

01:06:40.540 And we're still and we're still in a situation where Democrats want the political issue.

01:06:44.820 Yes. Right. I mean, I have a hard time response, though. You tell me you the correct response.

01:06:49.820 If you're a Republican in Texas to say is to say you are right. The law failed. We need an amendment.

01:06:56.900 We need to be like Florida and provide for severe like and I get it. The hardcore pro-life crowd is

01:07:03.340 like, no, there's a reason that's not in there. My own view is as a moral matter and certainly as a

01:07:08.660 political one, if you don't start providing exceptions for situations like that, you've

01:07:14.520 completely lost your way. The whole abortion argument is meant to balance the rights of the

01:07:22.360 mother with the rights of the fetus. And in a perfect world, they totally align. But sometimes

01:07:27.200 they don't. Sometimes the mother will die if forced to carry the baby to term. It's extremely rare.

01:07:33.480 This isn't that case. But sometimes the mother will. And in those cases, the law will recognize,

01:07:38.200 yes, the mother's the existing life that's already present and with us on her own two feet and viable

01:07:43.800 would take precedence if we have to choose over that of the baby. And sometimes it's something very

01:07:48.420 different. Sometimes, you know, when you've got a baby that's about to be born and there's no health

01:07:52.760 abnormality and there's no risk to the mother, the mother should have to give birth to that baby.

01:07:57.260 You carried it. You made it. What you can't say your mental health allows you to kill

01:08:01.380 this child. So the law already recognizes there are two interests here that we are weighing.

01:08:06.740 And what they're saying in this case is that the torture of the mother for the next 20 weeks

01:08:12.460 just to give birth to a child that has zero chance of living beyond a few minutes doesn't matter.

01:08:21.060 That to me is too barbaric for the Republicans to ever win elections again in Texas is going more

01:08:29.080 more blue by the day. You guys could take it. And I think a Texas, you know, a representative

01:08:33.340 there should immediately introduce a bill specifically for Trisomy 18, because the more

01:08:37.900 that you allow these stories, these heartbreaking stories to be highlighted, the worse it's going

01:08:43.620 to be for a public. Well, let me this if it's possible to get more depressing, let me give it

01:08:48.800 a shot. Let me tell you how I think this would go. I think this story highlights something that

01:08:55.340 there are an awful lot of really reasonable people who would like to introduce legislation to amend

01:08:59.000 their current statute that dealt deals with that. I think a not inconsiderable number of Democrats

01:09:04.760 who are pro-choice are entirely pro-choice to the point where there's no nothing. It just is open,

01:09:13.680 unfettered access to abortion no matter what. And their willingness to improve pro-life legislation

01:09:19.500 is almost non-existent. We've seen this at the federal level where anytime you could,

01:09:23.660 you try to get to a point where you're actually making improvements to deal with situations like

01:09:28.520 this or deal with, you know, various, uh, uh, very problematic pieces. The political issue is so

01:09:36.560 strong. Emily's list is so strong within the Democratic coalition that they don't want to

01:09:40.940 improve anything. They, they want the issue and they want to turn around and point at Republicans.

01:09:45.540 And then you've got a Republican, probably a majority of representatives, but not all representatives

01:09:51.900 who would be willing to take action on this with zero democratic votes and it ultimately doesn't

01:09:55.680 pass. That is how broken the current standard of politics is. And it's happening in every state

01:10:02.100 legislature across this country. If you want to demand change for things like this, it's not a

01:10:07.100 Republican only problem. It is a Republican and democratic problem to have a willingness to set

01:10:13.480 your special interest bullshit aside and try to listen to people like this and make adequate

01:10:18.960 changes for the betterment of your citizenry. We just haven't seen a lot of that lately. I mean,

01:10:23.400 look, that's really depressing. Well, the, the other problem just to add to that is Democrats always

01:10:28.580 want a mental health exception for the mother, like a health exception, which could include mental

01:10:33.620 health. And that's, that's an exception that eats the rule. I mean, that's, it's like, this is the

01:10:38.900 problem. This is what was happening with Gosnell in Pennsylvania. All you'd have to do is go in there

01:10:44.280 and say like, I realized I'm eight months pregnant, but it's really distressful to me to have this baby.

01:10:48.840 I can't afford it. And he would abort it. You know, he's now in prison. Um, but only because

01:10:53.640 that wound up becoming a national issue. And they were allowing this in Pennsylvania for a long,

01:10:57.900 long time under Tom Ridge. Um, in any event, you can't have this wide mental health exception

01:11:04.760 because it swallows the rule. And what I'm kind of talking about here, the distress to the mother

01:11:08.900 and carrying the fetal app that is, they're allowing that because of the mental distress to

01:11:14.180 the mother. I mean, Ron DeSantis is exception for fetal abnormalities is basically allowing the mental

01:11:19.400 distress of the mother to lead to an abortion. Now, I feel like most reasonable people can see

01:11:24.820 the logic behind that. That is not the same as saying, gee, I don't want this kid. I just don't

01:11:30.040 want it. I was irresponsible and now I want to kill it. That's not the same. And so like the Nikki

01:11:35.160 Haley approach of like, we've got to be reasonable looks very appealing. I think to a lot of women,

01:11:39.480 you just can't get to the point where you're allowing governor blackface slash KKK hood,

01:11:44.520 uh, Northam in Virginia to be letting babies be born and then killed on the operating table.

01:11:50.500 So anyway, there's no reason. This is the kind of conversation. Megan, this is the kind of

01:11:55.280 conversation you ought to be having about an issue of this magnitude. And it's one that we haven't had

01:11:59.540 at a national level because of the interests predominantly on the democratic side of making it

01:12:04.640 a potent political issue that has worked very well for them over the last two years.

01:12:08.800 And they're not eager to let it go. It's going to keep going. That's the point really of me raising

01:12:13.680 it. Cause you guys are the political gurus, not the abortion experts, but you got, this is going to

01:12:18.560 be a George Floyd, you know, like this is going to be this case and others like it on loop everywhere.

01:12:26.680 All Republicans want to do this to you, including president Trump, who's responsible for the reversal of

01:12:33.000 Roe v. Wade through those Supreme, like this is where we're going. And Republicans, it's fine to

01:12:38.580 just sit back and be like, it's bullshit. That's unfair. You better learn how to fight. You better

01:12:42.980 get a better message or you're going to get your asses kicked over and over and over because cases

01:12:48.500 like this are going to scare women. They're going to scare married women and unmarried women. Um, okay.

01:12:54.080 Speaking of scary women, Claudine Gay, she is scary because she's running a massive university and she

01:13:02.640 appears to be intellectually and academically dishonest. And no matter how much of her dishonesty

01:13:07.760 surfaces, she gets defended. It's no problem for Harvard. It's no problem for the New York times. I'm sure

01:13:15.160 if one of you four guys got caught in like a dozen plagiarism scandals and you were running even a

01:13:22.800 department at Harvard, they cut you the same kind of slack. Don't you think? Oh, no question. No

01:13:29.200 question. Claudine Gay is getting full cover run for her. Forget the stuff she said about Jews and

01:13:35.300 she wasn't sure if calling for their genocide was a problem at Harvard. The plagiarism allegations have

01:13:41.220 gone like every day. There's a new one. It seems like almost every paper she wrote, she stole in part

01:13:46.380 from somebody. You've got all these scholars coming up being like, yep, she stole from me. Yep. That's my

01:13:50.320 work too. Unsighted, unattributed. And now you've got the New York times doing this long piece, running

01:13:55.460 cover for her, actually praising her with things like, hold on, this is CNN actually, but the New York

01:13:59.660 times did it too. First, I'll start with CNN. How Harvard president Claudine Gay made history. She's the

01:14:06.260 first person of color, the first black woman to serve as president of America's oldest institution of

01:14:11.960 higher or higher learning, making her assent. Nothing short of groundbreaking bachelor's degree from

01:14:18.300 Stanford. Doctorate from Harvard. First cousins with Roxanne Gay. Her sterling resume resume includes a

01:14:25.400 laundry list of positions and fellowships at Harvard and Stanford. This is like porn to the liberal left

01:14:31.860 media. I mean, this is like porn talk, is it not? Oh, Stanford, Harvard, Roxanne Gay is her cousin. And then New

01:14:39.540 York times chimes in with Harvard clears its president of research misconduct after plagiarism

01:14:46.960 charges. The Harvard corporation said that while the review found she had not violated the university

01:14:52.380 standards for research misconduct, it did discover a few instances of inadequate citation.

01:15:00.060 Like it wasn't in there. That is inadequate. They keep going to talk about how the Harvard guide for

01:15:08.820 students defines plagiarism broadly, but not all instances of potential plagiarism are equal, guys.

01:15:16.740 You see, like if you're comfortably smug, you're guilty. And if you're Claudine Gay, you're not.

01:15:22.160 Particularly when they do not reflect any intention to deceive, some scholars said. Notably absent from

01:15:31.540 the New York Times piece is the name of those scholars who specifically said the intention to

01:15:37.880 deceive must be proven before you've got plagiarism. The whole thing is a farce.

01:15:44.960 Yeah, I mean, well, they're going to have to hurry up and change the definition in the dictionary of

01:15:48.640 what plagiarism is, because that was inadequate citation up until this day, you know, throughout

01:15:54.660 history. And I think what this is, is it shows that they have to defend her to sustain the DEI

01:16:02.080 industrial complex, because as soon as they would let this person be accountable for their actions,

01:16:07.480 that whole system crumbles and falls apart. Because we've been told that if you are the first

01:16:13.680 fill in the demographic here, then you must be special. And clearly the system has been keeping

01:16:20.960 you back from having that position to begin with. If she was actually held to the standards of someone

01:16:27.240 who would have that position, she would be gone. It's no question. Like the Harvard Crimson themselves

01:16:32.160 published and said, well, this is cut and dry plagiarism, right? But they have to maintain this

01:16:37.460 system. And that's the thing is when the Supreme Court had that ruling on affirmative action,

01:16:41.780 central to that was Clarence Thomas spoke very eloquently about how he felt under a system of

01:16:50.500 affirmative action, people would look at him and say, oh, well, you know why he's here? He didn't

01:16:55.180 earn his keep. He was a stellar scholar and academic. And you've seen through his tenure in the Supreme

01:17:00.840 Court, he's unmatched. But having to live with that of people be able to question you, why are you here?

01:17:07.000 And I think this is a prime example of it because it lays that system bare of everyone now knows why

01:17:13.100 she has that position. It's not because she's the best person to execute that role. It's because they

01:17:17.900 need those superlatives that at Harvard, the Harvard Corporation is proud to present to you the first

01:17:22.580 woman of color under the age of 65 who also is left handed. You know, like, yeah, this is what's

01:17:28.520 become of the system, not what's best for education. Also, who's most deserving?

01:17:32.100 What the hell is the Harvard Corporation? Can we tax that? That'd be fantastic. They need to dip

01:17:39.140 into that endowment and maybe hire better PR people. But, you know, I mean, to Smug's point,

01:17:45.060 the system is more important to them than any of the rules they pretend to care about.

01:17:49.640 Bingo.

01:17:50.100 And you see this not just in academia, but in media. I mean, you know, look with the Chris Cuomo,

01:17:55.800 with the fake coming back up the staircase when we all saw him out when he supposedly had COVID and

01:18:00.180 was quarantining. They will lie to your face and tell you you didn't see that. Right. I mean,

01:18:06.900 because they have to maintain the system, the system will crumble. So the rules get thrown out

01:18:11.220 the window the second they're inconvenient.

01:18:13.200 It also just ironically does a huge disservice for any sort of people you're claiming to help.

01:18:18.340 Yeah.

01:18:18.880 Right. I mean, in and of itself, does this, does Claudine Gay and her, her plagiarism,

01:18:25.240 outright plagiarism, not to mention what she said about genocide, which I can't get over that piece

01:18:30.300 of it either. And obviously the people at UPenn couldn't in terms of their president. But if

01:18:35.660 all of those things don't matter simply because what she looks like, what's the message you're

01:18:41.460 sending here to everyone else? Like it's to Clarence Thomas's point, like you're not actually

01:18:47.000 helping anyone. You're making it harder. Yep.

01:18:49.140 You're telling people that, that, that there are certain demographics in this country that have

01:18:54.560 to be given the benefit of the doubt because they can't compete, which is nonsense. It's absolute

01:18:59.080 bullshit. And that's the most racist thing I can think of a hundred percent.

01:19:02.340 Yeah. It's a, what was the old saying in the Bush administration, the soft bigotry of low

01:19:06.140 expectations. That's what it is. But I think it's also important to remember why she became a household

01:19:11.560 name to begin with. It's because she wouldn't condemn anti-Semitic chants for Jewish genocide on

01:19:17.420 campus. And that's not a position, I mean, it's a position that a handful of these presidents at

01:19:23.740 these upper echelon universities have held, but it's not universally held. I mean, there are,

01:19:28.440 there are university presidents, uh, like Peter, uh, Slavani in, uh, Yale, Robert, Robbins.

01:19:36.480 And, um, you didn't get into Yale, did you?

01:19:40.760 Peter Slavani, whatever his name is.

01:19:44.280 Well, but, but I mean, but he's condemned the anti-Semitism. Robert Robbins in, uh, in Arizona

01:19:50.080 has condemned the anti-Semitism.

01:19:51.440 No, and you got Ben Sasse in Florida and others have been very clear.

01:19:54.320 What I don't understand is like, what I don't understand is like, why she is not condemning

01:19:59.620 anti-Semitism and yet she's protected in that position.

01:20:02.140 Oh, well now she is. Now I said at the top of the show, now she's out there lighting this enormous

01:20:06.960 menorah with her tiki torch. I mean, not the right choice, Claudine.

01:20:10.700 And for somebody who's been accused of being anti-Jew, just put the tiki torch, look at

01:20:15.500 this. That's not the move.

01:20:17.080 How did he get the tiki torch involved? My God.

01:20:20.760 Didn't anybody say, don't we have like a long lighter or like a long match?

01:20:25.480 How to dip into that endowment. They need to hire better PR people.

01:20:29.680 Oh, we'll see what we're, what we're doing here. The five of us is just showing our racism.

01:20:34.060 According to Nicole Hannah-Jones, author of the fake news 1619 project, that America's racist

01:20:41.400 and you're all racist and I'm racist and our audience is racist because we have questions

01:20:45.700 about Claudine. Take a listen to her the other day.

01:20:50.480 What do you make of the fact that, you know, there were all these university presidents who

01:20:54.640 were criticized. She wasn't the only one, but the other presidents weren't criticized because

01:21:00.160 they were women. They were criticized because of things that they said or did. She is being

01:21:05.100 singled out as someone who is only surviving because of her race. What did you make of that?

01:21:13.300 Well, it's racist. I mean, we have, no one has produced a shred of evidence that shows

01:21:19.600 that the sole qualification that President Gay had was that she is a black woman. That's insulting.

01:21:29.020 Um, it defies logic. Um, it defies logic and the fact that of those presidents who all came

01:21:34.660 under intense scrutiny, that only one has been called out as a so-called diversity or affirmative

01:21:39.980 action higher just speaks to what black women in this country have gone through historically

01:21:44.940 and continue to go through every day. Oh, what a great gig on the show. And no matter the question,

01:21:54.280 she just has to say it's racist. Yeah. When you're, when you're a hammer, everything's a nail,

01:22:01.040 you know? Yeah. Bill Ackman, the guy who's been tweeting, has been doing a great job tweeting out

01:22:04.500 on the antisemitic behavior at these universities. He tweeted this out on December 7th. Um, he,

01:22:09.420 he has spoken with somebody with firsthand knowledge of the Harvard president search

01:22:13.020 that the committee refused to consider any candidate who did not meet the DEI criteria.

01:22:20.360 So she was a diversity hire, Nicole. Sorry, it's the truth. And probably those two other women were

01:22:28.200 too. Women are considered part of the diverse crowd as well. There was like a rash of elevating women

01:22:34.160 to these top positions at universities. And if they could be a woman of color, so much the better.

01:22:39.420 So let's not pretend that her race and her gender has zero to do with her elevation and have zero to

01:22:46.980 do with the, the cover, the New York times and CNN are running for her is as I said, if her name

01:22:52.460 were John Ashbrook, a white guy who didn't get into Yale, it would be a very different message.

01:22:59.400 Very different. No question about it. John Ashbrook would have a very difficult time. I know that.

01:23:06.400 Did we go too quickly with the, he didn't get into Yale narrative. I mean,

01:23:09.500 that's not, that's unconfirmed. I can, I can confirm.

01:23:19.380 Good. Like I said, you're too good for them. All right. So she lives to fight another day. We

01:23:23.240 shall see whether that keeps going. By the way, the NAACP got an in on it too. And that the president

01:23:28.100 of the NAACP, enough is enough. Claudine Gay is a distinguished scholar and professor with

01:23:33.320 decades of service in higher education. We know throughout them, she's been writing with other

01:23:36.940 people's words. The recent attacks on her leadership are nothing more than political

01:23:41.040 theatrics, advancing a white supremacist agenda, white supremacist agenda. I tweeted back to him.

01:23:48.360 No one is listening to you, Derek Johnson. This BS doesn't work anymore. Take care. Stand by guys.

01:23:55.500 Quick break back with more. There's actually a bunch we need to get to in particular,

01:23:59.880 the Bud Light situation and how we're now being told to back off and drink it again

01:24:05.020 by Kid Rock and Dana White. It's a no. I'm Megan Kelly, host of the Megan Kelly show on Sirius XM.

01:24:13.180 It's your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations with the most interesting and

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01:25:01.880 slash MK show and get three months free. Offer details apply.

01:25:11.740 Okay. One of my closest friends really wants me to ask you how you came up with program.

01:25:16.380 Where did program come from? That's a great question. Holmes has to take this one.

01:25:22.300 Yeah, this is for Holmes. I mean, look, like a lot of things in our world, there's not like a

01:25:27.340 clear through line. We appreciate bad affectations. We make fun of them an awful lot.

01:25:36.740 Program was just kind of one thing that we just began to throw in there at the very beginning.

01:25:41.340 I mean, do we have a real? I think it comes from. So we worked in the Senate for a number of years

01:25:46.600 and there were no shortage of members who would walk around and talk very, very high. Like I'm

01:25:53.340 thinking of John Warner when he giving us giving a speech on the floor and everything is just

01:25:57.540 such like high language. And I just think that we started talking to each other that way and just

01:26:03.280 started saying, oh, the program, you know, it's like a way of. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

01:26:09.700 And the variety piece of it, too. It works for me. I like it. It's like, I don't know.

01:26:14.700 It reminds me of kind of like Archie Bunker, you know, like the way he would talk. I'm trying to

01:26:18.640 get the Archie Bunker as one of my buttons on my series. He would say things in any way. He would

01:26:27.180 like the program. So I've got to get to what's happening with Bud Light. I mean, Matt Walsh has

01:26:34.340 been saying and I agree like this is like the only successful boycott that Republicans have ever

01:26:38.880 engaged in. It's the only time they've stuck together and actually been heard. And because

01:26:47.660 Kid Rock and Dana White want to give it up, we're supposed to all surrender our principles now.

01:26:54.280 And I like Kid Rock. I actually do. I like the guy. But he's wrong. He can do what he wants. If he

01:27:00.740 wants to drink a Bud Light, he can. He does not speak for the rest of us. Many of us are still

01:27:05.980 deeply offended by that brand's partnership with the person who makes his living mocking women,

01:27:13.300 Dylan Mulvaney, not to mention what they said about their core audience and customer base,

01:27:18.160 which is that they've gotten too fratty and they want to get away from them.

01:27:22.000 I like just who who at Bud Light thinks that we do what Kid Rock tells us to like it's it wasn't

01:27:31.500 Kid Rock shooting the Bud Light cases that led to the backlash. That was just one person who was

01:27:38.380 angry. Never mind Dana White, who runs UFC like who who that is part of this is like, oh, well,

01:27:45.040 Dana gave it up. So me, too. That's not how this works. Dana White got a hundred million

01:27:50.640 dollars for giving it up, for bending the knee to them. And now, like, to me, it's just absurd

01:27:57.760 that Bud Light won't fucking apologize, but will pay a hundred million dollars to the fighter guy

01:28:04.800 so that the rest of us will bend the knee. You bend the knee, sir. You bend the knee.

01:28:10.620 He hasn't apologized. He hasn't asked for forgiveness. And the reason he hasn't asked

01:28:14.420 for forgiveness is because he's too beholden to the radical, nasty trans activists who are men

01:28:21.820 trying to shame women out of using their voices. He's too afraid of them and not enough afraid

01:28:27.220 of the rest of America. That's had it up to here with this bullshit. What do you guys think?

01:28:32.820 Well, that's it. I mean, that's it right there. I mean, I think until Bud Light is willing to pay

01:28:39.300 every conservative in this country the same amount that they're paying Dana White, we stick to our

01:28:45.200 gun. But the second you get the check, once the wire clears, say what they want.

01:28:49.080 I still won't drink it. I didn't drink it before the ban. It's just not very good. You'd think

01:28:56.040 they'd improve the product at the same time. It's like, just pay us and then we can get back

01:28:59.320 to drinking bourbon in peace. We definitely have to cancel our gift to Megan of 12 Pack of Bud Light.

01:29:04.300 That is not going to go over well. Look, this is what big corporations do. They've got the money

01:29:13.000 to try to rehab themselves. And so you go hire people you think have some constituency in a

01:29:18.020 place that you've lost. Obviously, they're going to try. But I think for conservatives, it's not

01:29:22.140 enough to just say, no, we're not going to drink this. We're not going to do that. Because over time,

01:29:27.720 memories fade things. We have to get into a habit of is finding alternatives. And like, you know,

01:29:34.020 I mean, there's this one company that we began working with a little bit, Public Square,

01:29:38.120 that's like a marketplace of conservative small businesses that offer beers. They offer ice

01:29:44.380 cream. They've got dentists that are signed up on diapers, like all this stuff. But you've got to

01:29:51.460 have as a conservative, if you're going to make consumerism part of your value structure,

01:29:57.180 it's not enough for you to be like, I'm never going to drink that ever again. That's true. And you

01:30:00.720 can do that. That's fine. But you also have to empower people and companies that are making a

01:30:05.840 dramatic effort to try to include you as a conservative. Because without that second piece,

01:30:11.060 the motivation for the Bud Lights of the world to go hire people just to try to convince a whole

01:30:15.560 bunch of people who have sort of forgotten the outrage is always going to be there. And until you

01:30:20.100 find that conservative marketplace, that's ultimately going to provide that alternative.

01:30:24.140 Yeah.

01:30:24.340 I think you brought up a really good point, Megan, of the people who are running that company,

01:30:28.760 I can't remember the name of that lady who was like, we don't want these fratty type of people

01:30:32.820 drinking our beer. So you do not have to side with a brand and buy a product of someone who's

01:30:38.740 willing to stand you. You can find someone who actually wants you as a customer. It's your money.

01:30:44.700 And we took great personal frattiness, by the way. That was a direct shot. We felt very seen by.

01:30:49.580 What were you saying, Duncan?

01:30:50.700 Well, not just Public Square, but look at what Daily Wire is doing, producing movies now and

01:30:56.620 all of that streaming content. I mean, if you're going to build an alternative economy,

01:31:04.260 you got to start with things like that. Consumer products.

01:31:08.060 And empower them.

01:31:09.320 Entertainment.

01:31:09.680 I mean, make sure that... And I think we have some responsibility too on the conservative side of the

01:31:14.020 listening audience to make sure that we're not selling out.

01:31:17.520 Yep.

01:31:17.620 You know, that we're actually trying to find a way to enhance awareness of conservative

01:31:23.160 alternatives to these products that we've been shoved down our throat here for, you know,

01:31:27.620 generations.

01:31:29.260 He said, Kid Rock told Tucker, he thinks that Bud Light or that, that, um, well, I'll actually just

01:31:35.760 let him put it in his own words because we cut the side. Take a listen to Kid Rock.

01:31:38.640 You released the video of you executing the Bud Light with the carbine.

01:31:49.100 Fuck Bud Light and fuck Anheuser-Busch.

01:31:52.480 Months later, Bud Light effectively apologizes, but then comes back and hands the UFC $100 million

01:31:58.180 basically to say, we're sorry, we will get better. That seems like a win to me.

01:32:03.380 I think it could be. I think they got some work still to get, you know, some of that base that

01:32:07.700 they lost. You know, at the end of the day, when you step back and look at it, like, yeah,

01:32:10.820 they deserved a black eye and they got one. They made a mistake. Yes, it was a mistake. So

01:32:15.020 do I want to hold their head underwater and drown them because they made a mistake? No,

01:32:18.940 I think they got the message. Like hopefully other companies get it too. But you know,

01:32:22.780 at the end of the day, I don't think the punishment that they've been getting at this

01:32:25.400 point fits the crime. How do we know they got the message? Where, where was the apology?

01:32:31.680 Why didn't the CEO come on this show or any other and say, I hear you. I'm sorry. I get it.

01:32:37.700 I realized I promoted somebody who's extremely offensive to most Americans, nevermind most

01:32:42.620 women. And that my head of marketing, who I quietly dismissed without even owning that it

01:32:47.680 was because of this, I didn't have the balls to do that, that she left after she called our audience

01:32:53.860 fratty and said she wanted to exchange them for someone more acceptable to her. That was deeply

01:32:58.280 wrong. We made a public example of her. I now admit that's why she was fired. It was deeply wrong.

01:33:03.800 We love our audience base. She screwed up. She's what we want to distance from. Not you.

01:33:08.220 It's not that hard, sir. He doesn't do it because he's afraid because the trans activists,

01:33:13.100 you follow this story closely. They got all up in Anheuser-Busch's grill and Bud Lights saying,

01:33:19.100 you better not, you better not do that. How dare you not stand by Dylan Mulvaney and amped up the

01:33:24.620 pressure like they always do. So he bent the knee and wouldn't say to his customer base and those of us

01:33:32.180 around it. I'm sorry. I do not stand with them. Those are not my values. I have to pick a lane

01:33:39.220 and I am against their lane where you're cutting off children's body parts and sterilizing 12 year

01:33:45.680 olds. That's not my lane where you steal the term women, where you get rid of breastfeeding for

01:33:51.020 chest feeding, where you try to wear tucket bathing suits like Dylan does. That's not us.

01:33:56.300 I get it. I've heard you. And until I hear that, they can pound sand. And I love Bobby Kidrock.

01:34:03.500 He's a great guy. But no, he doesn't understand. And he's talking about how working class people

01:34:09.340 have gone out of work because two plants went down. Whose fault is that? It's the CEO of Anheuser.

01:34:14.860 It's the CEO of Bud Light. Those are the ones who are not us. I'm worried more about the children.

01:34:20.460 How about the children of working class people who get sucked into this ideology,

01:34:24.320 wind up sterile and have no money to reverse the procedures? That's the ideology that Bud Light

01:34:29.020 is promoting. So I worry about them, too, but in a different way. Those working class guys who

01:34:33.860 worked at Bud Light will get another job, but their children won't get their fertility back.

01:34:38.480 They won't get their body parts back. The women who lost the sporting races because these trans

01:34:43.140 activists took over, thanks to Dylan and the Bud Light promotion of people like that,

01:34:47.080 aren't going to get their medals back. There's a lot more to worry about than two plants shutting down.

01:34:51.420 I don't like these myopic views, right? It's like, oh, well, they, oh,

01:34:55.160 they, he made nice with Dana White, who, by the way, is getting a hundred million a year for six

01:34:59.720 years. Nobody else is getting that to your point. It's smug. So it just like, to me,

01:35:04.700 it's so infuriating. Conservatives win nothing. They win nothing. They bitch about the culture wars.

01:35:09.780 They finally have a win. Now these two guys want to give it back for what? For $600 million.

01:35:14.080 Are we sure we can't run Megan? Yeah.

01:35:17.880 Are you? That's a speech right there. He's accepting the nomination.

01:35:21.740 We need to look into ballot acts. I can think about this. If there's any way,

01:35:25.840 good Lord. I mean, that's it right there is they did not apologize. They still stand with that same

01:35:30.700 ideology. And until things change, like you said, the fact that they have, look at what the

01:35:34.740 legislation in California, where that state is going to allow minors to overrule their parents

01:35:40.520 and their parents can't have any say in it whatsoever. This is insanity. And so that's

01:35:44.880 the system that's being propped up when you allow things like that.

01:35:47.820 I also think that, look, the integrity of people who consider themselves conservative and the trust

01:35:54.060 that you build within an audience. I mean, it's the reason why your audience doesn't go anywhere,

01:35:57.920 Megan. It's why it grows every day, because your view of this issue is the same from day one as it

01:36:03.120 is today. Doesn't matter who's showing up with a check. And honestly, that's the, that's the

01:36:07.520 challenge that conservatives are going to be in for in perpetuity because there's not a corporation

01:36:11.620 in America that hasn't screwed this thing up and doesn't want to also buy your integrity to try to

01:36:17.180 fix it. That's it. Well, it shouldn't be for sale. And, you know, I hope these guys understand there's

01:36:22.860 a lot on the line with this boycott. Bud Light needs to suffer. I honestly, I hope the brand closes.

01:36:29.920 I'd be thrilled to see it close. I really would. And you can, you can continue letting Dylan Mulvaney

01:36:34.440 and all those Democrats who posed with pictures holding it. They, they can be your new customer

01:36:39.640 base. See how that works out. If we give up now, uh, we're giving up on the culture fight,

01:36:44.060 which is too important on the right. Love you guys. Thanks for coming on. You're the best.

01:36:48.060 Thank you. Thank you. And Merry Christmas. Cause we won't see you until January.

01:36:51.900 Oh, to you too. Merry Christmas, fellas. Lots of love.

01:36:56.400 Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show. No BS, no agenda and no fear.

01:37:13.180 When I found out my friend got a great deal on a wool coat from winners. I started wondering

01:37:18.540 is every fabulous item I see from winners like that woman over there with the designer jeans.

01:37:24.460 Are those from winners? Ooh, are those beautiful gold earrings? Did she pay full price? Or that

01:37:30.340 leather tote? Or that cashmere sweater? Or those knee-high boots? That dress? That jacket? Those

01:37:35.420 shoes? Is anyone paying full price for anything? Stop wondering. Start winning. Winners find fabulous for less.

The Megyn Kelly Show - December 14, 2023

CNN's Vivek Meltdown, Status of the Bud Light Boycott, and Trump's Polling Dominance, with the Ruthless Podcast ｜ Ep. 686

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