The Megyn Kelly Show - Colbert's Hissy Fit Farewell Tour, Xi's Ominous Comment, and Murdaugh's New Trial, with Glenn Greenwald ｜ Ep. 1318

00:00:00.360 All right, full-time thoughts. Craig, who stood out?

00:00:02.880 Brazil's lime cheesecakes started bright, didn't let up.

00:00:05.400 Nah, for me, Italian cappuccino was the standout in the box.

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00:00:11.300 Chocolate creme brulee had the richest finishes.

00:00:13.680 Canadian fireworks really showed up big too.

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00:00:30.000 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:42.020 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show and happy Friday.

00:00:45.940 President Trump is on his way back from his big summit in China and says the trip was a major

00:00:51.780 success. But his sit down on Fox last night delivered some eyebrow raising comments. Plus

00:00:57.820 the latest on the Alec Murdoch case as a couple of jurors speak out. And Stephen Colbert's bizarre

00:01:04.340 goodbye to late night is finally almost over. Praise Jesus, my God, it's gone on forever.

00:01:11.300 But not before he throws a hissy fit temper tantrum with the former host of the CBS program.

00:01:17.060 He and Letterman got together to just express how very, very angry they are about poor Stephen

00:01:23.280 Colbert show getting canceled. Cry me a river. Would you take it like a man? Honestly, where are

00:01:30.080 your testicles? This is so humiliating. We know you got canceled. Be a man. Jeez Louise. This is 1.00

00:01:40.120 pathetic. When I got canned from NBC, everybody was calling me a racist. They were humiliating 1.00

00:01:46.940 me everywhere. Yes, I got a little teary the day after because it was overwhelming. And that was

00:01:52.860 it. That was it. I didn't blubber and blubber on. I didn't ask everybody to feel so sorry for me on

00:01:57.980 the day, like days on end, nor would I have had they given me the opportunity to stay on the air.

00:02:03.200 Take it like a man. Stop it. Stop this. Put your big boy pants on and exit with grace. You're

00:02:10.660 humiliating yourself. Truly, you're humiliating mankind. I don't want my sons to see this 0.52

00:02:16.160 behavior. Like, this is so embarrassing. You didn't get cancer. You got canceled. It happens.

00:02:23.960 Grow up. All right. We're going to bring in our very first guest, very first guest ever here on

00:02:28.980 the MK Show. That's the podfather of our show, Glenn Greenwald, I speak of. He's a Pulitzer

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00:04:00.940 Glenn, welcome back.

00:04:03.320 What's happening with this man?

00:04:05.200 Like, we've all suffered professional setbacks.

00:04:07.980 None of us made this big a deal out of it.

00:04:10.100 the long goodbye. Johnny Carson had less of a goodbye when he announced his retirement from

00:04:16.580 The Tonight Show, and he actually was beloved. Let me show you the latest that he's done,

00:04:20.820 Colbert, with David Letterman. They're very, very angry, very angry that he's got to go. Watch.

00:04:27.720 You guys will verify that this is actually CBS property, right?

00:04:31.420 100 percent, yes.

00:04:31.880 Okay, anytime you're ready, Stephen, it's all fun until somebody puts out an eye.

00:04:35.960 That'll do.

00:04:38.520 Gentlemen.

00:04:39.760 Get ready.

00:04:40.800 Oh, my God.

00:04:43.040 Yes.

00:04:43.860 Oh, my God.

00:04:48.440 Yes.

00:04:52.240 My desk chair.

00:04:53.640 All right, well, say goodbye, my friend.

00:04:59.900 The Late Show, 1993 to 2026.

00:05:04.020 So how many years is that?

00:05:05.140 No way of knowing.

00:05:07.100 All yours, my friend.

00:05:14.520 Pleasure is all mine.

00:05:15.700 I enjoy destroying stuff.

00:05:17.020 It's great, great fun.

00:05:18.280 Thank you for everything you've done for our country.

00:05:20.760 Feeling is mutual, Dave.

00:05:21.860 Thank you.

00:05:22.780 Anything you'd like to say to the audience before we go?

00:05:24.860 Well, not necessarily to the audience, but to the folks at CBS.

00:05:27.840 In the words of the great Ed Murrow, good night and good luck, mother... 0.99

00:05:32.840 yeah they're angry glenn motherfuckers because they had the nerve to cancel his 0.98

00:05:39.840 failing show what do you make of it they're hard to watch you know um i i grew up with johnny carson 0.98

00:05:47.240 uh and i never really understood you know when you're a teenager or whatever the appeal johnny

00:05:51.960 carson but i actually find myself going back and watching johnny carson clips because it's just

00:05:56.060 kind of a representative of that era the way he did interviews the kind of humor you know he was

00:06:02.080 actually kind of a a subtle humorist so maybe as a kid you don't really understand why he's funny

00:06:06.940 he's older he appeals to your parents but the reason was was because it was actual genuine

00:06:12.560 humor and he never took himself too seriously like he thought of himself as a comedian which

00:06:16.760 is an important role in society which is to make people laugh to sometimes there's kind of a

00:06:21.740 politicized aspect to it that you poke at taboos and you delve into sensitive subjects in a way

00:06:28.560 That's unexpected. That's a big part of humor. But these guys have all like so many of our institutions, like so many in the age of Trump have convinced themselves that they have some transcendent role.

00:06:39.860 No, they're not just comedians that, you know, as David Letterman said, thank you for what you've done for our country.

00:06:45.000 He doesn't just mean holding hands of people at night.

00:06:47.980 He means the political war that you've waged.

00:06:50.700 And they see themselves as martyrs, as people who are battling evil, by which they mean Donald Trump.

00:06:57.920 And they've completely turned themselves into basically like a celebrity guest version of whatever is on MSNBC.

00:07:05.920 It really aligns perfectly.

00:07:07.340 and they they've broken the whole notion of of late night tv which is the place where people

00:07:11.600 used to be able to gather no matter what your religion or race or politics were it was just

00:07:17.240 kind of a centralized cultural uh thought that that people really really drank at because there

00:07:24.020 was no politics to it so that's the first thing and the other thing is they do you notice like

00:07:28.940 they all this whole thing with cbs i have my huge critiques about cbs i do think part of why they

00:07:34.860 fired Colbert is because they didn't want like very liberal programming up because they have a

00:07:39.820 lot to do with the Trump administration that they need done. But reality is it was a money making

00:07:43.760 money losing show. And if you're just looking at it from a business perspective, you would

00:07:47.700 you would cut it anyway. But they are trying to now depict themselves as these like hardcore

00:07:52.920 rebels and dissidents, radicals who are saying F you to the man. These are people who have made

00:07:59.800 extreme fortunes working for large corporations their entire lives and now at the very end

00:08:06.200 with their bank accounts all stuffed with billions millions and millions of dollars

00:08:10.160 from these corporations they're not going to feign like they're the common man giving the

00:08:13.880 middle finger to the corporation it's all such a fraud like a self-important

00:08:17.700 just bloviating fraud and it really sickens me it totally and you know the thing that's crazy

00:08:24.540 They were losing $40 million a year. I mean, $40 million. What show would be kept on the air because when it was losing $40 million a year, that would be professional malpractice to leave that show on the air.

00:08:39.760 But the irony of having Letterman pretend that this wasn't coming, when Letterman was, when he launched his show in 1993, we pulled the numbers, Glenn, he averaged 7.8 million total viewers and 4.4 million in the key 18 to 49 year old demo.

00:08:59.560 All right. Four point four million in the demo. By the time he handed it off to Colbert, those numbers were down to two point eight million and five hundred and thirty thousand.

00:09:12.020 The late night format collapsed while David Letterman was at the helm and he knew he was handing what was effectively a loser to the next guy.

00:09:23.220 So Colbert steps in there with a program that is a shadow of its former self.

00:09:28.340 People had just gotten over it, and Letterman wasn't what he'd been, and certainly Colbert wasn't the answer, and he never got things going.

00:09:36.320 In the beginning of the Trump administration, he raised the numbers a little.

00:09:39.880 He got it up 1 million to 3.8 million, okay, and it was 520,000 in the demo, so he never got the demo up.

00:09:45.520 But by the time Trump left office, he was down to 2.6 million total and 226,000 in the demo.

00:09:53.220 Only now has he ticked up a little bit from that as he does his little farewell tour and people on the left are feeling nostalgic for it.

00:10:01.660 But the format died.

00:10:04.360 It died as Letterman was handing it over.

00:10:06.760 Colbert was never able to revive it for more than an instant during Trump 1.0.

00:10:11.420 That's because of Trump being so interesting.

00:10:14.340 And now they want to pretend that they had a smash success on their hands, whereas they were getting beaten by Greg Gutfeld.

00:10:22.540 by the end and they don't who makes a fraction i'm sure of what stephen colbert is making

00:10:28.220 right i mean and you know i do think it is an unfortunate development i'm a gigantic fan of

00:10:35.360 of the internet and the advent of independent media i really am the byproduct of it my my work

00:10:41.120 has been as a result of it probably not possible without it so and to this day i continue to be a

00:10:46.640 massive fan of all the good that it's done but one of the things that i do think a country needs

00:10:51.660 is a kind of gathering place where everybody goes and kind of feels part of the same part of your

00:10:58.900 day that is shared with everybody else is kind of a ritual it's kind of like a cultural reinforcement

00:11:03.640 of what it means to be an american or or whatever country that you're in and we have lost that not

00:11:09.200 only though because the internet because if the internet offered a zillion other choices

00:11:13.540 but late night tv continued to be compelling you would still have people watching late night tv

00:11:20.120 the problem is, is that the people who got put in there, and again, this very much is a byproduct

00:11:25.320 of Trump, where Trump took over everything. And I've seen this happen to so many institutions.

00:11:31.720 I mean, I used to work all the time with the ACLU as a civil libertarian. I was always a big

00:11:35.360 admirer of the ACLU growing up. I revered the ACLU, what it did in Skokie. And overnight,

00:11:40.140 the ACLU turned into nothing but a liberal wing of the Democratic Party because everything was

00:11:45.060 just anti-Trump. And they made tons of money off of it. They got rewarded for it. They grew

00:11:50.600 massively in ways the ACLU never imagined. But every one of these groups, organizations,

00:11:54.980 even entertainment outlets became politicized because they thought that their mission was to

00:12:00.460 do everything possible to stop Donald Trump. And they got good feedback from it. As you said,

00:12:04.640 Colbert's ratings at first rose because it was the era of Trump and he positioned himself as

00:12:09.220 against trump so this kind of got was like a short-term sugar high but the price was long-term

00:12:16.180 destruction of these institutions they're gutting them out of their purpose i'm so humiliated glenn

00:12:22.940 i'm humiliated for him that he stayed on the air all this time he made the whole year about the

00:12:29.420 fact that he was fired and was leaving um now on his last night jimmy kimmel has announced

00:12:37.700 he won't program. He's not going to do a fresh program. It's just going to seed the airwaves

00:12:43.600 to poor Steven so he can get as many eyeballs as possible and really stick it to CBS,

00:12:48.720 just show them what a hit they actually were letting go. This is ridiculous. I mean, truly, 0.97

00:12:54.160 it is bigger than Johnny Carson got. And I was there when Johnny Carson stepped. I remember

00:12:58.600 what happened. Like, this is absurd. Why are they pretending that this is some sort of

00:13:02.900 fucking temple. That is how this feels. It's a damn late night show that had complete 1.00

00:13:09.760 irrelevance, except for a very small sliver of committed far leftists. 0.98

00:13:15.560 Yeah, I mean, well, I would say like Democratic partisans, basically, which isn't quite the same

00:13:20.480 thing. But basically, you know, it's the idea it became a politics show. It was basically just like

00:13:26.100 a late night MSNBC show. That's really what it was. And it wasn't anything else. You would never

00:13:31.380 go to see Stephen Colbert if you weren't sharing his anti-Trump politics. And this was this this

00:13:39.780 is why the show failed, because you already have tons of anti-Trump everything. You know,

00:13:44.980 it's like if you go back to 2013 and 2014, like in the independent digital media space,

00:13:49.200 you had all these different outlets, you know, like Vice and Vulture and the Huffington Post

00:13:54.180 and BuzzFeed. They're all gone. They're all gone. They were growing massively into something

00:13:59.280 interesting they're all either gone or or just total you know shells of themselves like a three

00:14:03.560 people keeping a front page up and the reason is is because all they were offering was the same

00:14:07.900 anti-trump agitprop that the new york times decided it was going to latch itself on to

00:14:13.980 and if you have the new york times doing it you don't need alternative media doing it because

00:14:17.580 the new york times is already doing it there's nothing alternative about it and that happened

00:14:21.200 to every one of these outlets the problem is is that stephen colpere obviously lives in a very

00:14:25.060 tiny enclave of los angeles and new york elites all of whom are liberal all of whom tell him oh

00:14:31.680 what you're doing is so important it's so important this is what you get told if you're an elite

00:14:36.320 culture and you do anything against trump you've got that like one time you asked a hard question

00:14:40.980 or multiple times you asked hard questions during that debate the big one and you suddenly became

00:14:45.160 beloved in in the culture that previously hated you they're monomaniacal about trump so if you're

00:14:50.740 opposing trump you become this person in their minds that get constantly told oh what you're

00:14:55.160 doing is so important and then they start believing their own pr and even though by the end that show

00:15:00.120 is worthless it's just reinforcing very banal liberal political thought against trump they've

00:15:06.440 convinced themselves that what they're doing but i just have to say to make it like again when david

00:15:11.680 letterman was on the air when stephen colbert was on the air all this time they were happy to collect

00:15:16.200 CBS's news, the paycheck from CBS News. Only when David Letterman left and then only when

00:15:22.200 Stephen Colbert was on his way out did they suddenly find their voice like, no, we're

00:15:25.320 anti-corporate guys. We're going to really give it to the man. These are the men. These are the

00:15:29.680 people whose bank accounts are extremely rich for serving corporate power. They don't really know

00:15:34.420 what else to do. Yeah. I mean, it is crazy because I think back when I was at NBC, the number one

00:15:43.040 thing I was critical about them on leaving NBC was how they handled the Harvey Weinstein

00:15:48.440 reporting that was being done by Ronan Farrell and how they clearly buried it. And I, while on

00:15:55.060 the air at NBC, while employed by them, went out on the air and called my boss, Andy Lack, a liar.

00:16:02.120 He had issued this ridiculous statement about how they didn't have two sources. And I knew they did

00:16:07.100 have the two sources. And I had seen the script that showed Ronan had two sources and NBC spiked

00:16:13.800 it. And I ripped on him on the air. Everyone around me freaked out, Glenn. It's not that

00:16:19.400 I'm some hero. I'm just saying it's possible to do it. Like if you actually do have a material

00:16:24.220 disagreement with your employer, if they're doing something deeply wrong, you can go out on the air

00:16:29.620 and say what's real. You have a platform Stephen Colbert does to this moment, right? He's not

00:16:35.500 exposing anything about CBS. He's only talking about himself. Um, some of us did it and some

00:16:40.800 of us, you know, well, let's just say it doesn't always wind up great for those people. That's

00:16:45.300 fine. You leave with your integrity and you know, you've done the right thing. He just wants us to

00:16:50.320 feel sorry for him because just like Kimmel who had his complete meltdown when he was off the air

00:16:55.880 for five days, he can't stand the thought of life, not in front of the Klieg lights. He can't stand

00:17:02.240 it. They need it, Glenn. It's their lifeblood. Well, did this not, you know, to continue the

00:17:08.100 comparison with Johnny Carson, who I do think has been retrospectively kind of revived and

00:17:12.720 this sort of respect for him in contrast to what came after him. Johnny Carson left when he was

00:17:18.400 still, you know, I wouldn't say at his prime necessarily, but still perfectly capable of

00:17:22.900 clinging to that program. He was in, you know, of good health. He had sound mind. He was still

00:17:28.160 funny he left voluntarily the network did not want him to leave and he just kind of gracefully

00:17:33.080 said you know what i've done this for long enough i want to go kind of live the last stage of my

00:17:37.560 life in peace in in in privacy and he like exited the stage very gracefully didn't make himself the

00:17:44.280 big center of attention they did a couple of shows like the last week as you would expect

00:17:48.000 kind of commemorating it these guys it's not just that they're so desperate for attention although

00:17:52.460 they are it's also that they don't want to be what they are they they're not they don't want

00:17:57.440 to be comedians they're not satisfied with that they think they're too important for that

00:18:01.040 and they've converted themselves into political martyrs or you know people who are so courageous

00:18:07.960 that they are standing up to the corpse i'm not even saying you have to go on air and condemn

00:18:11.880 your bosses but if you're working inside a corporation making a lot of money and you do

00:18:17.320 that for a long time either attack your corporate bosses while you're there or if you leave don't

00:18:22.540 suddenly at the last second when they fire you pretend that you're some kind of like

00:18:26.240 anti-corporate radical willing to stand up to your bosses this whole thing is infused with a kind of

00:18:32.100 elevated cause that they fabricated and that exists in what world is steven is steven colbert

00:18:38.480 a martyr of anything of anything no no this is ridiculous i think back to my time at fox news

00:18:45.280 i was there for 14 years i left willingly they made me a very nice offer to stay but i had enough

00:18:50.720 and i wanted to do something else and raise my own kids so i'm leaving for nbc the night i

00:18:54.700 announced I was leaving, I just said goodbye. I said, you know, thank you to everybody. And I

00:18:59.120 said goodbye on the air. And that was it. I didn't make a big deal out of it. O'Reilly. He was the

00:19:02.880 number one. He was the face of Fox News. By the way, my show was number one in the key demo when

00:19:06.560 I left. It had been for years. O'Reilly had the number one show in all of cable with the overall

00:19:11.060 numbers for many, many years. He was the face of Fox News. After I left, they elevated him even

00:19:16.580 more. He got paid even more. And he got fired over this whole Me Too situation. Did he make a big

00:19:23.060 deal out. He didn't. He left. It was it. That was it. It was like not some big deal. It is not

00:19:27.940 customary to martyr yourself on the way out if you've been fired or to spend months celebrating

00:19:36.040 yourself if you are leaving of your own volition. This is weird. This is a brand new format in which

00:19:42.600 he really thinks he's some sort of Jesus figure on the cross, like given what the horrible things

00:19:50.420 CBS is doing to him, which is simply his show has been canceled after years of letting it bleed out

00:19:56.480 in the red and paying him tens of millions of dollars, making him a household name, making him

00:20:03.060 a multi multimillionaire, funding all of his homes and cars and kids educations. And he actually

00:20:09.800 wants people to feel sorry for him. I know now on his last week. Oh, by the way, not only will

00:20:16.500 jimmy kim will not be doing live programming the night he goes off uh for the last time uh jimmy

00:20:21.500 fallon has also said he'll be doing just taped programming he's gonna run a rerun out of respect

00:20:27.000 my god such sacrifices such as these look at the sacrifices that these people are going to make for

00:20:32.340 their values it's so impressive so courageous didn't you throw up in your mouth yeah um you

00:20:39.600 know look i do think and this is you know have been a an issue of mine for a long time like you

00:20:45.760 don't want the government influencing what's on television or being able to use its regulatory

00:20:50.480 power to get what it wants i think these are legitimate questions surrounding not just trump

00:20:54.420 administration but administrations that have come before it this is something for you allow people

00:20:59.060 to talk about you allow questions to be raised you examine it whatever but this is not what's

00:21:04.600 being done what's being done is that stephen colbert himself has been turned into some kind of

00:21:08.880 as you said jesus figure i think there was some recent award show they gave him like an award

00:21:13.080 and they all like stood up for him this like very prolonged sustained hollywood applause

00:21:17.940 not because he's some great comedian because he's not i mean i do think he was innovative

00:21:23.700 and interesting you know 25 years ago when he was on with john stewart and was doing you know

00:21:28.520 they were doing some some actually innovative things but his show is is is barely funny it's 0.91

00:21:35.100 not really funny and even with celebrities it's like a very ass-kissing show to say nothing to

00:21:39.960 politics it was because they need to this is why hollywood often like at those award shows so often

00:21:45.720 it smuggles in political speeches because they they don't want to feel like they're only actors

00:21:51.900 they don't want to feel like they're only comedians they want to feel like they're more

00:21:56.440 important figures in the history of the world than just that and they assume this this inflated

00:22:02.600 sense of themselves and that's what so much of this is about yes okay so that's the perfect

00:22:08.560 setup for the soundbite I'm about to play. This is from this past week. For some reason,

00:22:15.720 first I saw Julia Louis-Dreyfus go on Colbert's show and tried to do this Veep reenactment.

00:22:22.160 It was so lame. It was so not funny. As the kids would say, it was cringe. It was very cringy.

00:22:29.780 I felt uncomfortable watching the whole thing. But he's doing something where he's kissing

00:22:35.600 everyone, like actually

00:22:37.380 kissing, male

00:22:39.440 and female. It's a little weird.

00:22:42.200 I'm going to show you some Vitsat 23.

00:22:44.480 Because I think you've made out with guests on camera.

00:22:46.080 No, I think you just wanted to make out with me.

00:22:50.340 This is all the late night house.

00:22:51.780 He's kissing Jimmy Fallon. What harm is there?

00:22:53.840 None. What could possibly go wrong?

00:23:00.480 He's kissing Julia

00:23:01.520 on the lip, people.

00:23:05.600 i'm sorry this is gross like like who who kisses julia louis dreyfus on the mouth who like by the

00:23:20.060 way no one knows where any of those mouths have been this is weird i like i don't kiss my own

00:23:24.160 mother on the mouth my mom and i kiss on the cheek that's it like this is very strange behavior glenn

00:23:29.440 i i mean i totally i didn't see i didn't see that i saw the images circulating and i was actually i

00:23:35.520 didn't you know i just saw them kind of crossing my feet and i was even wondering like are those

00:23:38.460 real or those distorted you never know you have to look into it and find out i just didn't but

00:23:41.980 i know i just saw the video and it is and you're welcome it's yeah thank you so much for doing that

00:23:48.240 work for me i was just about to go do it because i'm so interested no but uh the what it reeks to

00:23:54.180 me is of is of desperation you know like julia luis dreifuss is funny like she's a funny actress

00:24:00.100 she's had great success i loved veep i thought uh seinfeld at the time was great whatever um but

00:24:06.920 that's because she was being a comedian she was being like just a comic actress now like if when

00:24:12.040 they're trying to become political figures when they're trying to what in their mind is like

00:24:17.020 elevate whatever they do but when reality they're just kind of dragging it into the gutter because

00:24:21.520 it's just so uninteresting the when they beat they're not they're not interesting political

00:24:25.320 thinkers that isn't why they're successful nobody has ever tuned in to any of this to watch hear

00:24:30.380 their political views unless you know you have a like-minded political audience in which case

00:24:34.920 you're going to reduce your audience as stephen colbert has done and it just this is all but so

00:24:39.880 without being able to be funny without really having anything relevant culturally to contribute

00:24:44.500 it's oh let's just start kissing on the lips because that'll at least get people talking

00:24:49.180 about the show. And I guess it works. It was, as I said, circulating in my feet. I wouldn't

00:24:53.460 usually see the Colbert show in there. And I don't know. It's just you and I can both drop

00:24:59.100 trowel right now and do a big moon in front of the camera. And we get lots of attention.

00:25:03.560 But like most like most people who are doing a show, especially a political show like Stephen

00:25:09.360 Colbert is doing, would like to maintain some level of dignity on camera in front of their

00:25:14.980 audiences while doing the show that's not what he's like why is he kissing Jimmy Fallon and on

00:25:20.840 the participation of all the other late night hosts like he's their god like the emasculination

00:25:26.360 what's the emasculation that they're engaging in for what again so that you can I mean it's not

00:25:32.740 like Stephen Colbert invented the genre right it's like when Barbara Walters retired that that was

00:25:39.920 big. I mean, that was big. She was a pioneer. It was like an institution, an institution and

00:25:45.680 like something. Yes. Pioneering, as you said. Exactly. He doesn't have any of that. What are

00:25:51.100 they doing? No, but he's being distorted into some kind of victim of Trump administration

00:25:57.900 authoritarianism. This is the this is the subtext for everything that we live in Trump's America.

00:26:04.020 And in Trump's America, if you criticize Donald Trump, you go to a gulag or you're put into prison

00:26:09.900 or you're shot by mass dice agents on the street or you have your corporate bosses fire you in

00:26:15.340 order to please the Trump administration. And I'm not even saying again, I'm not saying there

00:26:21.420 aren't actual questions there that that people like you and I and others who, you know, engage

00:26:26.740 in politics, people talk about politics, but talking about it as politics would raise and

00:26:32.040 debate and discuss. It's worth examination. But that's not what this is about. This is about

00:26:36.520 creating this kind of storyline where they're heroic they're these central figures who have

00:26:42.860 done such important things i don't know what but important things and at the end they end up getting

00:26:48.920 like they are acting like they were put on the cross and this persecution narrative does not work

00:26:56.580 for extremely rich celebrities who have always gotten along very well with corporate bosses

00:27:02.600 until their show started losing money.

00:27:05.320 And I do think it's such an interesting thing

00:27:07.480 about the economics.

00:27:08.960 You know, the reason why is because technology now

00:27:11.400 is such that you and I can be talking to each other.

00:27:14.180 We have microphones in front of each other,

00:27:15.740 cameras in front of each other, small staffs.

00:27:18.340 You know, you can have small staffs in a studio

00:27:19.820 and still produce like a professional enough show.

00:27:23.340 But at Networks, they have hundreds of people employed,

00:27:27.640 but almost more than our people under 50

00:27:30.560 watching Stephen Colbert.

00:27:31.620 like the numbers are pretty close colbert had 200 staffers glenn 200 staffers exactly and he's not

00:27:38.220 producing 200 times better of a product than anybody than anybody i'd rather there's a zillion

00:27:44.400 people i would rather watch just sit in front of a camera with a cheap microphone and talk

00:27:48.600 than watch stephen colbert and that is what the internet has has permitted is it really has rooted

00:27:53.320 out the frauds like the people who are only successful because they had a captive audience

00:27:57.900 no one's captive anymore to cbs except still like old people who watch because it's it's their

00:28:03.100 viewing habits but other than that young people they're not going to watch cbs out of habit or

00:28:08.500 just because they have to they're going to only watch if there's something compelling on and

00:28:12.060 there's not it's no it's so crazy i like i did not make as much as stephen colbert is making

00:28:18.760 when i was in the prime time at fox but my show made a hundred million dollars in ads a year that

00:28:27.140 okay, $100 million in ads a year. And that's not including these subscription fees that Fox would

00:28:35.820 get because people liked the lineup. They liked what was in the prime time. They liked up and

00:28:40.020 down the dial. But that makes sense. That's why that show worked. And we did it on a shoestring

00:28:46.580 budget. I only had 12 main producers, which is small for cable. You have to produce six segments

00:28:51.920 a night. I mean, it's a lot. It's a labor-intensive product, and it still is over there. But Fox

00:28:56.540 always did it on the lean. This guy's got one hour of like a couple of guests. I don't know,

00:29:04.220 maybe three at most. He does a standup monologue. So I guess he needs a couple of writers since

00:29:08.920 he's clearly not writing his own stuff anymore. I don't even know how you get to 200 staffers

00:29:13.780 and how much was his show making Steve? It was, it took in, it took in 60, but, and lost and lost

00:29:21.940 40. Well, like, I don't know that those economics are not sustainable. So it took in 60 and it cost

00:29:30.940 a hundred to make, it cost a hundred million dollars to make. And it took in 60, you know,

00:29:35.000 like just so people understand the economics. Right. So then there's my show at Fox. I don't

00:29:38.840 know what it costs, but it was some fraction of that teeny tiny fraction of that. And we made

00:29:44.680 a hundred million. Like that's something that's available to anybody who wants to be in the news

00:29:50.440 or entertainment business, and you could easily replace Stephen Colbert with an up-and-coming,

00:29:55.560 hungry, you know, excited, young, talented guy who wouldn't require any of the star trappings

00:30:02.640 or salary that he demands and probably get at least equal to, if not potentially in a year,

00:30:09.720 a bigger number. Like, why don't any of these other comedians acknowledge that? Why do they

00:30:16.180 all go along with this? Well, ironically, this is the part of it that, you know, you could go to

00:30:22.320 YouTube and find some young comedian who doesn't have a huge name, but has like a big following

00:30:28.300 online, which is, you know, if they have a following online, it means their following

00:30:32.540 tends to be a lot younger than the average network or cable news viewer, which is what's

00:30:37.620 created by advertisers and the like. So they're more valuable. The problem is, is that the reason

00:30:42.220 why they don't just take somebody like that and pay them, you know, one 20th of what Stephen

00:30:45.860 Colbert is making and give them an hour on CBS news is because they can't control those people.

00:30:50.540 They don't trust them enough. They don't have enough of a proven track record that they're good,

00:30:54.700 malleable people. And, you know, your stint at NBC was very short lived in part because you

00:31:02.020 weren't that malleable. You know, you, they couldn't just mold you and into something that

00:31:08.980 they wanted you to be or that the other people there wanted you to be and the fact that that

00:31:12.300 you weren't is why you were gone so so soon so that's the irony is stephen colbert has lasted

00:31:18.100 there so long because he's never been offensive they were willing to lose money on him because

00:31:24.280 he never really did anything you know basically that show is some movie star some actor has a

00:31:29.880 new show a new book a new whatever they want to promote so the deal is they go they go on those

00:31:34.420 shows they sit down for like eight minutes talk a few minutes about some pre-planned story and

00:31:39.560 then the rest of the time promoting the project it's like the easiest thing in the world but

00:31:43.640 that's what that show that's what those networks want they don't want edgy comedy or people they

00:31:48.060 can't control and that's why they've lost their audience farewell i mean just truly farewell it's

00:31:54.100 like i don't know i i feel like i don't know what they're going to replace him with but who cares

00:31:59.360 the whole medium has become totally irrelevant it should just lean into what it is which is

00:32:04.880 it's it's political hit jobs every night after night i mean it's interesting to me because

00:32:08.480 those five late night comedians put on quote just launched a podcast and it's appearing on

00:32:16.800 and my podcast feed under the news feed not entertainment news yeah they're actually so

00:32:24.300 like they're not that they're not entertainment and they're not news i don't know what they are

00:32:28.900 But also, but also, as you noted, and when I tell people this who aren't, you know, conservatives, people get shocked.

00:32:36.860 The number one rated late night talk show host in the country is Greg Gutfeld.

00:32:41.760 His audience is not huge, but he is the number one rated late night talk show.

00:32:46.220 He's number one. Notice he's never included in their little club, even though he has the bigger audience of all five of them, because they're not joining on the basis of comedy.

00:32:55.220 They're joining on the basis of politics. And Greg Gutfeld doesn't fit in.

00:32:58.900 He fits in as a late night comedy show host.

00:33:00.940 That's what he is, but not as the political actors they think they are,

00:33:04.920 that they've recast themselves as.

00:33:07.180 No, the way they talk, I'm sure the way they talk about Gutfeld and Fox

00:33:11.300 is just like, oh, you know, the cult over there, whatever.

00:33:14.700 He's not real.

00:33:15.320 Those numbers aren't real.

00:33:17.380 Yeah, the day they announced Colbert's cancellation,

00:33:20.680 his guest was Adam Schiff.

00:33:22.160 I mean, like, no one wants to see Adam Schiff

00:33:26.560 on as a late night entertainment guest.

00:33:30.080 You know, it was like those shows when we were young

00:33:31.780 had Tom Cruise and Julia Roberts

00:33:34.760 and A-list celebrities.

00:33:36.160 And like Rodney Dangerfield and like that insult comic

00:33:41.360 was on the Don Rickles.

00:33:42.900 You know, like it was very,

00:33:44.060 I'm not saying it was never political,

00:33:45.380 but it was like entertainment.

00:33:46.920 People who were identified as being like entertainers.

00:33:49.920 It was really a show for entertainers.

00:33:52.260 And it was funny.

00:33:53.380 That's what he, the guests he invited back

00:33:55.100 were the ones he thought was funny.

00:33:56.200 the ones that americans like as they went to sleep having adam schiff on could you imagine

00:34:00.960 johnny carson having someone like the adam schiff equivalent on especially on the night that you

00:34:05.400 get you announce your cancellation never that already is showing the attempt to infuse it with

00:34:09.360 this like political importance but like a liberal and johnny carson also was in the business of

00:34:16.420 making stars like if you got the chance to appear on his show as a comedian you were on your way to

00:34:22.380 becoming a star letterman had that in the beginning too none of these guys has that ability they can't

00:34:27.220 make stars they don't they don't have enough star power power themselves speaking of star power

00:34:32.160 we've been talking this week on this show about the michael jackson story the new movie and the

00:34:39.240 allegations against tim glenn and um we actually i talked about the the nature of this movie and

00:34:46.600 the controversies around it because it stops before any of the sexual molestation scandal came

00:34:51.120 out. And I hadn't yet seen it, but I did go to see it with my family on Wednesday night.

00:34:57.400 It was amazing. I have to say, I highly recommend it. It was supremely entertaining. Both actors

00:35:02.840 who played the young Michael Jackson and the older Michael Jackson, the older of whom is Jafar

00:35:07.740 Jackson, Jermaine Jackson's son. He's Michael Jackson's nephew. Did such a great job. But the

00:35:13.840 younger kid did such a great job, too. Gosh, they were very talented. By the way, for those

00:35:18.720 wondering, you can take the whole family to it. The only viewer warning is Joe Jackson was an

00:35:23.320 abusive bastard, Michael's dad. And there is a scene in the beginning where he beats Michael 0.99

00:35:27.960 that is very jarring, even to us old news cynical bastards. It was upsetting. The little boy did 0.97

00:35:35.400 almost too good a job of acting hysterical and hurt. Other than that, you're good. But he's been

00:35:41.040 very much in the news. And I'm not going to ask you about the Michael Jackson scandal, but I am

00:35:45.100 sort of, it's, it's, it's led to a bunch of discussions about whether we even have celebrity

00:35:49.580 like that anymore. Like Michael Jackson transcended everything. Doug and I were talking about this

00:35:55.900 this morning. Like he, he transcended race. He himself was neither black nor white really over

00:36:01.480 the course of his life. He transcended aging, right? He never sort of grew up. He always remained a

00:36:07.520 child in his, you know, what he liked, the people he wanted to hang out with. I understand the

00:36:12.700 controversy with that, but I'm just saying, um, he, he, it was just something like he, he was for

00:36:20.760 everyone. It wasn't just for women, like the way Taylor Swift is, um, or just for men, you know,

00:36:26.860 the way some of these, like, I don't know, maybe hard rocker bands. I don't know, but he was for

00:36:31.180 everybody and he was universally known universally beloved. He was just such a huge star. And I

00:36:38.200 wonder whether, is it even possible to have that today? Is there anybody who we could use to help

00:36:45.200 explain that level of fame and notoriety to our kids? It is something I do think is so interesting.

00:36:53.980 Michael Jackson came to Brazil once, and I think maybe more than once, and to this day,

00:36:59.180 people in Brazil talk about it. It was like a huge moment in Brazil. He, I think, actually

00:37:04.740 He filmed a music video in one of the Rio favelas, and he had extreme global fame.

00:37:11.700 And I think it very much relates to what we were just talking about, which is, as you said, Michael Jackson didn't do anything that would alienate a particular group.

00:37:23.520 He wasn't trying to plant his flag and say, I'm this, and if you're not this, I'm not for you.

00:37:28.300 I remember actually Michael Jordan, who was by far the biggest athlete, certainly the biggest basketball player, but I say the biggest athlete when we were growing up as well, was once asked, like, why don't you comment on politics?

00:37:39.600 And he basically said this famous phrase, which is, well, Republicans buy shoes, too, buy tennis sneakers as well.

00:37:45.580 I'm not in the field of being a politician.

00:37:47.400 If I run for the Senate, maybe I'll take political stands.

00:37:49.560 But I'm a basketball player.

00:37:50.460 I'm an entertainer.

00:37:51.180 I'm in the business of selling things.

00:37:53.420 I think that's a big part of what has been lost.

00:37:55.760 but also uh with the internet it's it's amazing you can go online and find people who are quite

00:38:04.640 famous by every metric you know people who are known by millions of people people who get stopped

00:38:08.600 on the street people who have huge numbers of fans and every and a lot of people have no idea

00:38:14.440 who they are it's like fame has become very diffused very kind of segmented and segregated

00:38:20.040 you know and i think it reflects what we were just talking about which is that we don't anymore

00:38:24.660 have this kind of common cultural gathering place,

00:38:28.380 this kind of common culture even almost,

00:38:30.640 because if you're a streamer, if you're a YouTuber,

00:38:34.100 if you're an entertainer,

00:38:35.560 you can appeal to a niche global audience

00:38:38.200 and make huge amounts of money,

00:38:39.880 gather millions of fans,

00:38:41.460 and also be completely unknown

00:38:43.340 to huge numbers of people as well.

00:38:47.520 And it's like what you were just saying,

00:38:49.100 if you went on Johnny Carson, you were there.

00:38:52.280 He could make a star

00:38:53.640 because so many millions of americans were watching that doesn't exist anymore there is

00:38:57.640 no common cultural uh kind of gathering point that we have any longer it's all been so segmented and

00:39:03.960 segregated and i maybe you can find some benefits in that but i also do think that there are um

00:39:10.080 some serious harms to that as well we want to share things in common with one another across

00:39:16.780 cross lines but everything is so politicized everything is so segmented yeah exactly exactly

00:39:23.620 it was just or actually you know now that you mention it you know i've uh been working on this

00:39:28.240 project about issues with with animals like you saw this thing with richland farms and the horrific

00:39:33.280 experiments that were being done to beagles and you know i've known the activists working on this

00:39:38.560 for a decade i read about it a decade ago because of them and yet all of a sudden like this this

00:39:43.580 very apolitical trans ideological movement formed around this issue you had like laura trump and

00:39:52.000 laura loomer and like fox news personalities you were doing it lots of republican members of

00:39:57.480 congress as well as liberal members of congress and left-wing activists completely aligned and

00:40:02.660 assembled around this common cause that we all can relate to which is dogs and the idea of

00:40:08.200 industrially abusing dogs and torturing dogs is something that horrifies all of us there's

00:40:13.300 and the reason i noticed it is because it so rarely happens whereas it used to happen a lot

00:40:18.420 more like with michael jackson michael was michael jackson on the left or the right

00:40:21.500 neither neither he didn't have that prison at all no exactly right and he he there's a line in the

00:40:29.720 movie um and again it was made by his estate and by people who love michael and with the full

00:40:34.720 cooperation of his family i think is executive produced by his brother jermaine his mother is

00:40:39.300 still alive and clearly blessed it. And the actor, Jafar, who plays him, who's the grandson of

00:40:46.160 Michael's mother, said she approved. This has been blessed by the family. But there's a line

00:40:51.760 in there where Michael said he wanted to avoid too much overexposure. He wanted to be like Greta

00:40:58.920 Garbo, who really didn't put herself out there that much, that he liked there being a level of

00:41:04.260 mystery. And really, Michael Jackson did live up to that. Think of your memories of Michael Jackson.

00:41:09.120 And he gave a couple of massive, like, interviews that were massive because he never did them and because he made so much news in them.

00:41:14.940 Like, with Martin Bashir, he gave one to Diane Sawyer and one to Oprah.

00:41:19.840 I can't think of others off the top of my head.

00:41:21.380 But, like, the fact that I can even list the ones he did tells us a lot.

00:41:27.100 And he intentionally tried to keep his big performances on stage or on vinyl, you know?

00:41:34.700 And it's just the opposite of the way the stars are today, where they're everywhere, they'll go to anything, and they'll overshare.

00:41:44.660 You know, like Charlize Theron, I just saw some video of her on a subway being interviewed by somebody, like, giving up all these sex secrets.

00:41:55.640 And she's done this before.

00:41:57.100 She's talked about her sex secrets.

00:41:58.320 Let me just tell you, there's one sex secret about Charlize Theron that she's obviously not giving up yet.

00:42:04.760 And I don't know why, because let me tell you, Charlize, it's fine.

00:42:09.060 It's fine.

00:42:09.740 In 2026 America, you can declare what you actually are and everybody will still love you.

00:42:14.680 That's all I'm going to say.

00:42:16.700 But in any event, it's too much, Glenn.

00:42:19.400 You know, it's like Tom Cruise gets it.

00:42:21.480 He keeps himself sort of not all that available.

00:42:25.480 Some of these old school stars still get it.

00:42:27.640 but most don't. And it's kind of sad. Like, I think we lost something.

00:42:32.220 Yeah. It's like a mystique, you know, the, what makes at the end of the day,

00:42:37.040 we're all human and we're all have very ordinary aspects to us.

00:42:41.940 Even if we excel and are exceptional and in one particular or two particular

00:42:46.640 areas, I think there's actually a Twitter used to do this too. You know,

00:42:50.820 there'd be very,

00:42:51.440 very respected people in their fields who had accomplished great things.

00:42:55.420 And then they would just start, you know, getting dragged down into the Twitter mud or commenting on everything.

00:42:59.920 And it would be you would look at them and you would say, wow, they're they're actually quite mediocre.

00:43:04.120 They you know, it would strip them of the image.

00:43:07.980 So many of those people like during covid, a lot of just certainly in the Trump era as well, because mystique and enigma is a really are really attractive traits.

00:43:19.480 It kind of draws you to people you want to know more.

00:43:21.580 But if they're just shoving in your face everything about their life, they have Instagram pages and they're posting everything that they're doing and thinking and saying it every second.

00:43:29.440 You realize how ordinary they are.

00:43:31.000 And I think you're right.

00:43:31.900 Like one of the things about these big stars is you feel like, oh, they exist.

00:43:36.820 They're very ethereal.

00:43:38.100 You know, like the life is like only they materialize on stage, as you were saying, with Michael Jackson in front of like 300,000 screaming fans or 150,000 people in a stadium.

00:43:47.320 But if you start hearing from Michael Jackson every day about his thoughts on like whatever he happened to watch on CNN or whatever, and he just like goes on TikTok or Instagram and, you know, you're going to be like, oh, that's he's zero.

00:43:59.280 He's mediocre. And that is it's like this attention addiction in this attention economy.

00:44:05.020 I think we all have it a little bit. You have to like fight against it and resist it.

00:44:08.100 And yeah, I think I think you're exactly right. This overexposure is is has killed like any of the mystique of celebrities become almost tawdry.

00:44:17.320 Mm-hmm. Leonardo DiCaprio, he's good that not, you know, he doesn't give many interviews. It's good. You know, back in our day, they used to not really put themselves out there. Every once in a while, they might do a Barbara Walters sit down for one of her most fascinating people specials.

00:44:34.260 those were always great because they would be more profiles of the person where you really

00:44:40.080 got to know them on their ranch, like with Clint Eastwood. Maybe she'd ask you if you'd been

00:44:45.200 involved in a scandal, a couple of like very blunt questions. So that was always a highlight.

00:44:49.840 It was a different way of getting to know them and they all knew the price of admission and it

00:44:52.900 worked. But today it's like sitting on the subway talking about your intimate sex preferences is

00:44:58.900 just weird and it's too much and it's the opposite of garbo by the way trump once told me that

00:45:04.660 that's melania's approach too that she's more like a garbo you know which i think is actually

00:45:10.180 i think that is very true like we don't ever i like barely know melania's voice like given her

00:45:15.600 stature and her platform we barely hear much from her or about her um and that's clearly part of i

00:45:23.180 think you're absolutely right like a deliberate conscious effort not to to kind of be this person

00:45:28.840 that you want to know more about right like when someone has a like a kind of wall between you and

00:45:33.320 them and hiding things which they should be because you don't need to know everything about

00:45:36.980 them it kind of makes them more interesting like you want to know more whereas if she were just

00:45:40.740 sounding off every day about everything you'd be like oh just please go away she really i think

00:45:45.000 that's a really good point yeah like after the um latest assassination attempt at the hinckley

00:45:51.760 hilton in washington you know melania was right next to trump for that one it wasn't like butler

00:45:56.480 where she was not even there. She was there and she would have been potentially in the line of 1.00

00:46:01.080 fire. And Trump held that presser immediately after back at the White House. And she was there

00:46:07.440 and he said, do you, somebody asked about Melania and he was like, do you want to come up? And she

00:46:11.960 declined. She net like it's, that's why when she came out and did the little bit on Epstein and

00:46:16.520 like stop the lies, we're not, we weren't friends. It was so extraordinary. It's like, oh my God,

00:46:20.000 she's speaking. She never speaks. She never covets the camera, the microphone. She did her

00:46:25.300 little documentary on her life, which was controlled. And that was, that's what she

00:46:28.980 was comfortable with. But she rarely feels the need for us to see her or to put her voice or

00:46:35.320 her opinions on camera. It's a 180 from the last first lady. And it's delightful because if ever

00:46:41.540 there was a woman who the camera loved, it's Melania Trump. She just doesn't feel the need

00:46:47.660 for that kind of attention, which is probably good for them because in that, in that marriage, 0.98

00:46:51.960 there can only be one who needs attention. Imagine wanting to have him compete with Trump 0.61

00:46:57.600 when it comes to media attention. That would be very fatal to any kind of connection.

00:47:03.520 No, exactly. You've got a seed here and back back to you. And that works for both of them.

00:47:09.900 OK, wait. Speaking of loving the camera, though, Kamala Harris is back. She she's gotten a little

00:47:15.040 taste of it, Glenn, and she she's enjoying it. She's back and she's got a lot of predictions

00:47:19.680 or forecasts or pieces of advice, I guess we should say, for how the Democrats

00:47:23.860 should combat what they see as the gutting of the Voting Rights Act.

00:47:31.180 The reason the Voting Rights Act has, over the past 70 years, been rolled back

00:47:36.020 bit by bit to the point where it's really no longer doing anything is because we've grown.

00:47:40.620 We've grown as a society. We are no longer meeting blacks at the polling stations with rabid dogs 0.99

00:47:47.680 and, you know, citizenship tests. 0.95

00:47:51.600 And the Supreme Court has evolved on its jurisprudence around it, too.

00:47:57.340 Now they're pretending that we've gone right back to Jim Crow

00:47:59.620 because of the Supreme Court's latest ruling

00:48:01.540 on how you can't draw these districts such that they, like,

00:48:05.480 empower only black people in the state of Louisiana

00:48:09.180 and, you know, not whites and so on. 0.99

00:48:12.120 It's like, just draw them the way you want to draw them.

00:48:13.660 Anyway, there have been a lot of extreme reactions to this decision, and Kamala Harris has decided to weigh in.

00:48:21.540 She went to a group that's for black women to give them her sort of thoughts on it.

00:48:28.600 The name of this group is Win With Black Women.

00:48:31.800 It was an emergency virtual meeting.

00:48:35.300 Their website describes them as a collective of intergenerational, intersectional black women leaders throughout the nation.

00:48:42.200 they come together to stand united in support of black women. So here's what she said to that group

00:48:48.660 in terms of how to fight this thing. I think that we need an expanded playbook. This is a moment

00:48:54.800 where there are no bad ideas. A no bad idea brainstorm is what I'd like to call it. And in

00:49:01.180 that no bad ideas brainstorm, we talk about what we need to do and think about doing around the

00:49:07.880 Electoral College. We talk about the idea of Supreme Court reform, which includes expanding

00:49:15.060 the Supreme Court. We invite a conversation about multi-members districts. We talk about,

00:49:22.940 look, that if we win the Senate, which we should and we will, then the Senate Judiciary Committee

00:49:29.380 should have rules that they put in place. So when these people come before as nominees to the

00:49:36.600 Supreme Court and lie that they are held to account and consequence. Let's talk about statehood for

00:49:44.060 Puerto Rico and D.C. These are the things I think that we've got to do. We've got to neutralize these

00:49:50.740 red states from cheating, including blue states expanding their maps. Look, we got to fight fire 0.84

00:49:58.560 with fire. These folks are playing to win. We got to play to win, too. She slips into her little 0.92

00:50:04.680 accent there at the end um i think she means it what's scary to me is she means it and a lot of

00:50:10.100 the stuff she wants to do there that's extremely radical can be done with democrat control of the

00:50:14.100 white house and a simple majority in both bodies of congress i don't know that she means anything

00:50:19.900 that's the thing about come there are people who mean that like everything about her is such a 0.53

00:50:25.240 fraud and we're talking before about like black mystique you know she's was the vice president

00:50:29.680 the united states there comes like a certain grandeur of that that office and when she's just

00:50:34.900 there on a zoom with her like background blurred and saying this stuff in this fake accent that 0.76

00:50:40.060 she's not hers trying to put on a persona that's clearly not hers trying to blackify herself 0.99

00:50:45.180 because in the last election a lot of black people even said i don't even think she's black 0.82

00:50:48.060 you just realize the fraud of her but yeah i mean the democratic party believes like the republican 0.86

00:50:53.200 party believes by the way that the other side cheats and goes to any lane and that they have

00:50:57.340 through too she's just echo she's the last thing she is is a radical she's like a very like kind

00:51:03.580 of like a Colbert like pretending to be this anti-system radical but in reality she's a 0.51

00:51:10.600 byproduct of the system and the establishment this is just kind of a blackface if you will 0.61

00:51:15.460 in order to create a new personality it is an interesting preview though because we've heard

00:51:20.900 James Carville say this we've heard her say this most Dems are saying this behind the scenes when

00:51:25.720 we come back, I'm just going to lay out for the audience exactly how all that could in fact happen

00:51:30.340 if everything goes blue next election cycle. Stand by, Glenn's with us for the show.

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00:52:36.740 All right, full-time thoughts.

00:52:38.240 Craig, who stood out?

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00:52:41.640 Nah, for me, Italian cappuccino was the standout in the box.

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00:53:02.960 Pick some up today, and while you're at it, check out Footy Prime Daily.

00:53:09.960 Glenn Greenwald, host of System Update, is back with me now.

00:53:13.300 go and subscribe to his sub stack. It's greenwald.substack.com. So just a moment more on

00:53:20.400 the Kamala Harris comments. She seems to want to talk about getting rid of the Electoral College, 1.00

00:53:25.780 something that has been tried 700 times before, literally, and would require a constitutional

00:53:32.100 amendment, which is not going to happen. So that's pie in the sky bullshit. Packing the court, 0.99

00:53:38.120 she doesn't say packing the court there. She says, let's try to hold the Supreme Court justices who 0.81

00:53:42.080 make us promises during their confirmation hearings to account if they don't live up to

00:53:45.920 their promises later. That's never going to fly. That will be a separation of powers violation.

00:53:52.000 There's been fierce legal debates over this for many, many years. And those who believe

00:53:56.520 Congress cannot control the Supreme Court, a co-equal branch of government in this way, 1.00

00:54:00.940 will win that. So that's another pie in the sky. However, and I don't know what she means about

00:54:05.260 multi-members districts. We're going to look at multi-members districts. I have no idea what

00:54:09.360 she's talking about. Is that redistricting? They're doing that now. The Democrats are on

00:54:13.320 the losing end of that effort, thanks to the court rulings across the nation. But when she

00:54:19.420 talks about statehood for Puerto Rico and D.C., and when other Democrats talk about packing the

00:54:25.180 court, adding additional justices, all of that can be done if the Democrats simply win control

00:54:32.440 of the White House, win control of the House, and win control of the Senate. They actually can do

00:54:37.060 that. And this is what many people fear is that they will get rid of the filibuster because you

00:54:41.060 would need a filibuster proof majority in order to get a vote on these things. But if you get rid

00:54:45.900 of the filibuster in the Senate, you can do that. And all you need is a simple majority. I mean,

00:54:50.860 I think a lot of people don't realize that if you want to make Washington, D.C. a state or Puerto

00:54:54.840 Rico a state or even Trump right now is casually referencing Venezuela becoming a state, which we

00:55:00.020 don't want. All it requires is a majority vote in the House, Senate and for the president to

00:55:07.180 sign it into law. Same for adding seats to the U.S. Supreme Court. So we truly could be one

00:55:11.760 election away, not the midterms, but the one after from having the kind of rule that truly

00:55:18.060 could radicalize the country, Glenn. And more and more Democrats are speaking openly about wanting

00:55:23.720 to do it. But would they? Here's the thing. I think a lot of this is about the political

00:55:30.960 realities, which is I'm not endorsing this or defending it in any way. I'm simply describing

00:55:36.720 that there is this widespread view among Democratic voters, the kind of party base

00:55:44.080 that the Republican Party basically treats politics as a war, is willing to do anything

00:55:50.560 and anything to gain power and the democratic party is always this meek little ethical club

00:55:56.960 that feels compelled to abide by the rules now i know republicans think the same thing that their 0.61

00:56:02.080 party is always by the rules and democrats are these you know power hungry monsters who will

00:56:06.360 do anything probably some truth to each of those things but because democrats perceive that and

00:56:11.740 then also perceive that trump is this a this historical evil this existential threat to

00:56:19.060 american democracy we've never confronted before because they think those things they've lost

00:56:24.360 patience with any politician who seems to be too uh constrained by conventions or the constitution

00:56:34.340 or the law or tradition the pesky matter of the u.s constitution these little annoying technicalities

00:56:40.900 uh like the constitution and separation of powers and that's why chuck schumer for example has become

00:56:46.180 so extremely unpopular among democratic voters because there's a perception that he sticks to

00:56:51.680 these old rules and this is what one of the reasons why aoc has become so popular it's not

00:56:56.700 really an ideological shift at all like maybe on israel there's an ideological shift maybe on

00:57:01.360 foreign policy a little bit it's not really about that it's about this idea that you're supposed to

00:57:05.500 be combative you're supposed to get down in the dirt with the republicans and show the republicans

00:57:09.280 the democratic party will cross lines too like the republicans are doing that was the whole thing

00:57:13.980 with the Virginia redistricting battle

00:57:16.180 was to prove that the Democrats

00:57:17.420 are going to steal through redistricting as well.

00:57:21.380 And all of this stuff is necessary.

00:57:23.720 No, it did not.

00:57:24.400 It's necessary for Kamala Harris 1.00

00:57:26.400 to have some kind of credibility 1.00

00:57:28.420 because she wants to run for president again in 2028 0.96

00:57:31.080 among Democratic Party voters.

00:57:32.620 She's now trying to show,

00:57:34.100 hey, I'm out here with my black accent

00:57:36.180 that I never had before.

00:57:37.760 And I'm going to speak in that

00:57:38.840 because that's really combative.

00:57:41.020 It's a very, very condescending, 0.75

00:57:42.880 But also these ideas, Kamala Harris is an institutionalist. She's worked her way up the political system by being as far from a radical as you can be. She was a prosecutor is how she started. It's always been at the center of the party, but now they feel like they can't have viability. You're going to get depicted as being Chuck Schumer or Hakeem Jeffries, who they also hate if you're too wedded to traditional rules. 1.00

00:58:04.740 So this idea of expanding the court, statehood for D.C. and Puerto Rico obviously would become two extremely Democratic states.

00:58:13.360 This is stuff that I don't believe Kamala Harris believes.

00:58:16.240 But if we've seen this before, when you have politicians kind of pandering to voters with ideas that they have, even though the D.C. class doesn't have them, you can push the Overton window far enough that it does become the position of the Democratic Party.

00:58:30.340 And I do think it becomes something that's, of course, not going to happen to something that will actually if they get enough political power, which they might.

00:58:38.760 Trump is unpopular. The war has made him unpopular. Gas prices, economy, Epstein stuff that has given not the Democratic Party a popularity boost, but the Republicans, a big albatross, certainly in 2026 and maybe into 2028.

00:58:51.860 Then it is possible. And I do think that kind of talk warrants attention.

00:58:55.320 Yeah, it's scary to me because you hate I mean, you genuinely hate to see Trump's approval ratings where they are, because that's that's how we get to Democrats controlling both houses of Congress and God forbid the White House, too.

00:59:12.880 I mean, to me, that's genuinely scary. The problem is the numbers are going in one direction and it's not great.

00:59:20.980 This is the latest from Harry Enten, who took a look at Trump's approval ratings this morning.

00:59:26.200 Trump's net approval rating hits a new low.

00:59:28.300 You could see it right here.

00:59:29.480 20 points underwater.

00:59:31.020 And what you just see on your screen right here is it's been a steady climb downward.

00:59:36.640 You know, you go back to January of 2025.

00:59:38.880 At the beginning, it was plus six, then minus six by May 2025, minus nine, minus 14, minus 15.

00:59:43.720 But over the last few months, as the Iran war has taken shape, as those gas prices have

00:59:48.960 jumped through the roof. Trump has hit a new low. He's at minus 20 points, which is the lowest point

00:59:54.620 of his second term. Have there been any polls recently in which Trump has not had a negative

01:00:00.280 net approval rating? Every poll since March 29, 2025, that is over a year ago, you can't find a

01:00:08.320 single poll in which he has anything but a net negative approval rating. And you just look right

01:00:14.380 at this and say the net effect on your personal finances. The best of the group is the tax law,

01:00:19.380 right? That's 16 points underwater. How about tariffs? 49 points underwater. How about the

01:00:24.880 Iran war? That effect on your finances? 67 points underwater. No wonder Trump is underwater in every

01:00:31.380 single poll. No wonder he's hitting new lows in the aggregate. Oh, that is depressing stuff. But

01:00:38.400 we're six months out from the midterms and maybe there's some some time to stop the bleeding.

01:00:44.380 Um, the problem is he doesn't really seem to recognize those numbers as real, Glenn, because when given the chance to show even fake empathy for people's economic situation at home, he doesn't.

01:00:59.960 it's i mean to his credit it's really not on brand for trump to do so and he's sticking with

01:01:05.360 his authentic self but it's like as a supporter of generally more republicans than democrats i'd

01:01:12.020 certainly like to see at least an attempt at it because people are hurting and clearly they're

01:01:16.540 angry yeah i mean i think the only thing i like on cnn by the way is harriet because it's kind of

01:01:21.720 like pulling data in the form of like catskill or the borch belt comedian kind of delivery it's like

01:01:28.160 very weird mix it actually makes it interesting yes like a dancing yeah yeah it's bizarre nothing

01:01:34.640 is interesting to see and accept that and also by the way he's pretty straightforward about things

01:01:38.680 like he's talked before about the democrats difficulty about trump's popularity he's not

01:01:43.160 really a partisan hack he tries to really stick to what the plunk out of shows yeah um i think

01:01:49.300 on the one hand trump's insularity on this question is understandable because both times

01:01:55.560 that he ran when he won the poll showed him losing by a significant margin and and it damaged the

01:02:03.060 credibility of polling there was that whole ridiculous poll from man seltzer in iowa the

01:02:07.820 gold standard that made everyone think trump was not going to just lose but lose big and then he

01:02:11.880 of course won uh uh iowa easily um so i understand that on the one hand but on the other i think a

01:02:18.300 lot of this is that trump is so surrounded by sycophants it really has become the culture of

01:02:23.520 the lighthouse that they constantly are just showing him anything positive like he constantly

01:02:27.580 goes back to this one magra poll that for self-identified magra people at the beginning

01:02:31.680 of the war that he's like i'm at 100 it's become like i'm at 100 with everybody and you see there

01:02:36.340 the unpopularity of the iran war which of course is going to be unpopular he ran on a promise not

01:02:41.380 to engage the country in this these kind of wars and if there weren't any implications at home

01:02:46.440 that there weren't you know there aren't uh thankfully huge numbers of troops being killed

01:02:51.480 but there already are disruptions at the gas price at the gas pipe and i think a big part of

01:02:56.140 that is this message that has been conveyed from dc for so long we're not we don't really care about

01:03:01.380 your suffering we're interested in these fun little adventures over here these wars over here

01:03:05.920 these big meetings over here and you know trump ran on a basic promise to represent what he called

01:03:11.760 the forgotten men and women the working class of the united states the de-industrialized rust belt

01:03:15.980 and the focus of the administration has been not on that has been in many ways the opposite this

01:03:21.100 war is extremely unpopular and i think the problem is um with this war is that there's really no way

01:03:27.980 out for for trump i can't you know it's kind of like the war in ukraine and russia i always from

01:03:33.520 the beginning said if nato defines victory as every russian troop out of every inch of ukrainian

01:03:39.820 soil including crimea that is never going to happen and since nato defined it that way there

01:03:45.880 could never be an end to the war because that was never going to happen and either they would accept

01:03:50.040 an ending of the war that wasn't that admit defeat to russia which they couldn't do or the

01:03:53.120 war would just go on forever which it seems like it is same with this war the iranians aren't going

01:03:57.660 to give trump the things he said he needs because they don't feel threatened enough they feel like

01:04:01.140 they're in a good position and the longer it goes on even though it's not active combat prices are

01:04:07.340 going to rise oil is going to rise there's huge disruptions in the energy market globally but

01:04:11.760 all sorts of other secondary uh implications as well people are feeling it where they care most

01:04:16.980 which is at the pocketbook. Already, midterms are hard for an incumbent president. When you add

01:04:21.420 on economic difficulties, a very unpopular war that's hung around Trump's neck that he talks

01:04:26.020 about all the time because he has to, I think it's very, very grim. I mean, the best thing

01:04:31.840 the Republicans have going for them is the Democrats. They've got that. And that is not

01:04:36.780 nothing. You look at your crazy ass opponent. It's like, you're still in it no matter how low 1.00

01:04:41.560 Trump's approval ratings are. He did speak with Sean Hannity over in Beijing, where he's been

01:04:47.940 for a couple of days this week in this bilateral summit with Xi Jinping. Some interesting things

01:04:53.800 happened before I get to the soundbite. This one jumped out at me, and I'll explain why.

01:05:00.840 Late Thursday, okay, let me jump back a little earlier. Xi gave a speech. It was his opening

01:05:09.560 remarks at the bilateral meeting. And in it, in those remarks, he questioned if the two nations

01:05:16.480 could overcome the, now forgive me because this is tough for me, but it's the Thucydides trap,

01:05:23.740 the Thucydides, Thucydides trap. And that's a theory suggesting that when a rising power

01:05:30.980 threatens to displace an established one, a war could result. So the Chinese president 0.96

01:05:40.040 raised that in his opening remarks, addressing the American president, which is extremely

01:05:47.200 provocative. I mean, that is not diplomacy. That is, we're the rising power. They've been

01:05:52.820 open about their plan to be the world's greatest superpower by 2050. And they can wait. And the

01:06:00.660 reason it jumped out at me is because I actually happened to be reading this book right here that

01:06:04.280 my husband recommended to me called Destined for War by Graham Allison. And the subtitle is

01:06:10.820 Can America and China Escape Thucydides Trap? And it's all about that exact thing. It's a very 0.87

01:06:16.700 interesting book and it's not that dense. You know, you can read it even though it has the

01:06:20.180 word Thucydides in the front. And it's all about how China is well positioned to win this conflict

01:06:27.560 between the two countries because it has never ending patience and it is the rising power and 0.79

01:06:33.220 that we are the declining power. At least we're behaving like it. We have active decisions that

01:06:38.140 project that and that it's Sparta and Athens and the declining power eventually will lash out and

01:06:50.380 that there will be armed conflict between the two. So he gets up there, the Chinese president,

01:06:55.460 and raises this question right in front of us, rude.

01:06:58.300 And Trump decides to pretend

01:07:01.480 that it was all about Joe Biden.

01:07:04.360 He came out with this long, true social post

01:07:07.760 and invoked Joe Biden suggesting,

01:07:10.720 oh, that was all about crazy Joe

01:07:12.180 and how he really did have our nation in decline.

01:07:14.460 But he praised several things that I've done

01:07:16.700 to bring the country back.

01:07:18.840 That's not how she worded it at all.

01:07:22.600 He did not limit it to Joe Biden.

01:07:24.160 This was an insult.

01:07:25.460 And, you know, Trump, who was behaving more diplomatically, chose to ignore it and deftly put it on an earlier president so they could still get along, which I have to say was a good move by Trump.

01:07:36.180 But one has to hope that Trump recognizes, in fact, what it was and behaves accordingly because he doesn't sound like he's getting ready to do that, Glenn.

01:07:45.700 Instead, he said the following. Let me start with SOT 5, which seems to be making excuses for some rather offensive intrusions the Chinese are about to make into our country, which will only accelerate their rise. 0.99

01:08:00.960 And you could argue accelerate our decline. Here it is. SOT 5. 1.00

01:08:04.980 I would assume I'm in Beijing if I wanted to buy property near one of their military installations. I don't think President Xi.

01:08:14.100 Yeah, I don't. Look, it's not that I love it. You want to see farm prices drop? You want to see farmers lose a lot of money? Just take that out of the market. But they've had a lot of land for a long time. Obama did nothing about it. They bought a lot of it during the Obama administration. He did nothing about it. As far as the students, it's 500,000 students. They come good students.

01:08:40.540 uh wow i could tell them i don't want any students is a very insulting thing to say to a country

01:08:50.720 they would then immediately go out inside building universities all over china i frankly think that

01:08:57.500 it's good that people come from other countries and they learn our culture and many of them want

01:09:02.160 stay here oh glenn who wants that literally what american wants it was 300 000 chinese students like 0.50

01:09:13.480 two months ago now it's 500 000 and he goes on to say many of them will stay here we don't want 0.87

01:09:19.820 that either we don't want them taking up our university slots at our most prestigious universities

01:09:23.780 and we definitely don't want them staying nor do we want them buying up american farmland

01:09:28.380 well there are some americans who actually do want that particularly wall street and the

01:09:35.160 corporate community they love the right they're in bed with the chinese and always have been

01:09:39.260 i think if you look at you know this kind of theory about declining and rising powers that

01:09:44.480 uh you are mentioning the chinese president raised that that book uh addresses i read parts

01:09:49.280 of that book i think i don't know a couple years ago um and uh the the big difference to me in

01:09:57.080 terms of the U.S.-China relationship, aside from the fact that both sides have nuclear weapons,

01:10:00.560 and so a war could mean instantaneous extinction of the planet and the species, which I think adds

01:10:05.540 a pretty big component, is that generally when the United States goes to war with a country,

01:10:11.580 Iran or Iraq or Afghanistan or Vietnam or whatever, all the power centers are united

01:10:18.020 in the idea that that's an enemy country. The business community has always depended on China. 0.71

01:10:23.180 Look at how many American firms, crucial American firms, Tesla and Apple and on and on, use China and related markets for very cheap labor, for very cheap production costs, and then ship those products back to the United States in order to be priced competitively.

01:10:40.180 And there's all, I mean, Elon Musk and all those CEOs went to China because China is crucial to their business model.

01:10:45.620 and trump is very much of this class he you know he's a nativist he's anti-immigrant

01:10:50.820 on the one hand but if you look at how china had the how trump has talked about china

01:10:55.900 and especially president xi president trump has this admiration for people he thinks are like

01:11:02.540 strong tough leaders even if they're dictatorial even if they're he this is something that he

01:11:08.260 respects on a personal level people are like tough and strong and have an iron grip on power

01:11:13.640 and President Xi and the Chinese merit respect

01:11:16.640 in that, if that's your worldview.

01:11:19.080 And he's always talked about Xi

01:11:20.420 in very respectable terms

01:11:21.820 and he wants a friendship with Xi.

01:11:24.660 And-

01:11:24.980 But he's not getting it.

01:11:26.060 That's one of the interesting things.

01:11:27.700 Sorry to interrupt you, but just quickly.

01:11:28.860 He kept complimenting Xi.

01:11:30.480 He kept over and over, he kept complimenting him.

01:11:32.080 And the compliments were not returned. 1.00

01:11:34.620 That's not how the Chinese behave. 1.00

01:11:36.020 It was not great, that piece of the dynamic. 1.00

01:11:38.520 Keep going.

01:11:39.220 I know, but I think that, you know,

01:11:41.560 we grew up with this framework

01:11:43.380 that the republicans are really strong on foreign policy the democrats are weak it's kind of

01:11:47.560 something that you like just wind people up and everybody thinks but if you look for example you

01:11:51.660 know like when president obama was was in office the john mccain's and lindsey grams used to attack

01:11:56.080 him for being too soft on russia and then trump comes in and it's the democrats who demand more

01:12:00.720 involvement of the war in ukraine more confrontation with russia in syria uh that was a big hillary 1.00

01:12:05.940 clinton thing nancy pelosi flew to taiwan and treated the taiwanese like they were their own

01:12:11.780 separate sovereign state a very anti-china provocative move and trump has always been

01:12:16.740 very kind of talked about china the way wall street does like in these very respectful terms

01:12:23.180 like we need china we can't separate from china even this thing like yeah i want chinese students

01:12:27.880 there they're great people they they contribute a lot to society and i think you see these

01:12:32.520 impulses and look on the one hand i don't think we should want people pursuing a war with china

01:12:40.060 and the united states um but on the other hand they are definitely a competitor and you could 0.59

01:12:45.880 even say an adversary that wants to supplant the united states and influence all throughout the

01:12:50.140 world and people responsible for the united states and for its government should think about china in

01:12:54.980 that way and i think on some level trump doesn't he looks at president xi sees like a strong equal

01:13:00.380 businessman and wants to do deals with him and and has a respect for him that as you say i don't

01:13:05.440 click the Chinese return for Trump or the United States. No, no, they did not return it. And I

01:13:11.580 don't think they'd return it for any American leader. It was to me offensive that he raised

01:13:16.000 that in his opening remarks. And it's just the hassle they gave to our secret service and having

01:13:21.120 guns and entering rooms that came out reportedly that they were very confrontational with secret

01:13:26.980 service that because they were armed. Yes. Hello. They're with a president who they've tried to

01:13:30.820 assassinate four times here in the country. Yeah, they're going to have their armed weapons like

01:13:35.200 stop harassing us. And apparently somebody from the admin made the point to them, we would never

01:13:39.920 do this to you in our country, like knock it off. So it was annoying. They're annoying. And we don't

01:13:46.100 need 500,000 of them in our universities, nevermind staying here and buying up our farmland.

01:13:51.540 And Trump's only excuse on the farmland was like, oh, the prices of farms are going to go down,

01:13:55.920 suggesting the competition for them is going to go away. Well, how do we know that? There actually

01:14:01.080 might be american buyers for these farms but why do we want the chinese to own all our farmland 1.00

01:14:06.260 they already are they already owned some significant portion of it like smithfield

01:14:11.040 they have smithfield farms yeah i mean i was just gonna say ask any beef or pork producer

01:14:16.120 yeah and i i think like we've seen this conflict before in trump you know that whole controversy 0.83

01:14:21.120 remember with the h1bs with the black ramaswamy and elon musk saying you guys are insane if you

01:14:26.140 don't want more people here on on h1bs because obviously silicon valley and wall street love 0.83

01:14:30.700 h1bs because these people come and they work for less than americans do and they're basically

01:14:34.700 indentured servants because their ability to stay in the united states depends on their keeping their 0.95

01:14:38.300 job employers love that kind of dependency that kind of power and leverage they have over but the

01:14:43.660 anti-immigrant wing of of trump's movement the american first wing is like wait now we're trying

01:14:48.040 to bring more foreigners into the united states i thought the idea was we wanted to get rid of them

01:14:52.080 and you've seen this you know in other immigration contexts as well like these mass immigrations 0.99

01:14:56.480 when Trump started when the when I started, you know, trying to deport farm workers or hotel

01:15:01.940 workers, you know, big corporate chains of hotel owners and big farming interests went to the

01:15:06.960 White House and said, you can't. These are our workers. Yeah, they're they're undocumented.

01:15:10.500 They're illegal, but they work for less. We need them. And that's when you saw Trump say we're not 1.00

01:15:15.020 going to necessarily Trump has hotels, too. And he said, yeah, we're not going to necessarily target

01:15:19.260 illegal illegals who are working in in these industries because we don't want to harm our

01:15:24.060 industries. This conflict is very real. Trump is not really Pat Buchanan. He's not a nativist 0.99

01:15:30.500 in this pure sense. It's a strain of his politics that he picked up on that he knew could be

01:15:35.860 beneficial. I think Trump's idea is basically, let's keep out the bad ones, like the ones from

01:15:40.140 the bad countries, the ones whose culture, they just come and stay on welfare or whatever. 0.99

01:15:44.760 But the good ones, like the Indians, the Chinese, that we want them working for Silicon Valley.

01:15:48.780 That's, I think, Trump's mindset. It's very much the Wall Street, Silicon Valley mindset. And of

01:15:52.600 course, Trump is very tied to both sectors. Well, they'll be the only Asians who get into Harvard, 0.75

01:15:58.160 given the way they do their admissions now, notwithstanding the Supreme Court decision. 1.00

01:16:02.100 So good luck with that. Welcome to our world. One other thing on Trump. I mean, I think I think

01:16:07.680 in the president's defense, I think he's thinking it would be very nice to get along with China,

01:16:11.620 right? We do not want a world war with China. We don't. I agree. We are dependent on them buying

01:16:16.380 some of our materials, too. It's not just one way. Like he's he said, soybeans he mentioned.

01:16:21.240 He said they're going to buy 200 Boeing jets, which is very good for Boeing.

01:16:25.020 So he's trying to sort of, OK, these are areas we can cooperate on.

01:16:28.260 We can be friends.

01:16:28.940 And Trump, he does have a sense of optimism, which is, to his credit, but not always valid

01:16:36.960 in the political context, right?

01:16:38.940 In dealing with China, I think we need a hefty dose of cynicism and suspicion.

01:16:45.680 So I don't know. 0.90

01:16:46.660 You know, the president, I do think he understands that there are risks and he's trying to play

01:16:49.780 the long game, but it's frustrating to hear talk of half a million Chinese students coming and

01:16:54.220 staying to America. No, thank you. OK, one more. There was an admission on the Iran war,

01:17:01.840 which jumped out at me and it might to you, too. Here it is in Sot 7.

01:17:05.520 We're doing it to help Israel and to help Saudi Arabia and to help Qatar and UAE and,

01:17:12.440 you know kuwait and other countries bahrain it also helps china and we're actually i told him

01:17:20.560 today i said you know we're helping you and we're helping you in another way because i don't think

01:17:25.580 they want i don't think china wants iran to have a nuclear weapon either i said just don't go crazy

01:17:32.580 you don't need them having a nuclear weapon either what did he say what did he say well he's not

01:17:37.300 going to respond too much he's a pretty cool guy he's not going to say oh gee that's a good point

01:17:41.920 I think he might. What's he going to do? I mean, what a wonderful point. You think he agreed?

01:17:46.400 Yeah, I think that was the impression. I don't think he wants him to know he would like to see

01:17:50.980 it end. But he's been good about it, you know. So there it is. I mean, lest there was any doubt,

01:17:59.680 it's the first thing in the answer. We did it to help Israel. We're doing it to help his renamed

01:18:03.920 other countries. He has said the world can't have Iran having a nuclear weapon. But just to say that 0.66

01:18:09.220 is so controversial that we're doing it to help Israel. We know. We know that. We've said that

01:18:13.480 many times. And then you get called an anti-Semite. But that's not anti-Semitic. It is a fact. You

01:18:17.760 heard it from the president of the United States himself. He thinks it's also helping some of the

01:18:22.360 Gulf Arab states. Fine. That's not controversial. You can say that. But prior to the president

01:18:27.340 saying it himself explicitly, you weren't allowed to say that other piece of it or you were called

01:18:30.620 an anti-Semite. I thought this was a movement that was calling itself America First. And then

01:18:38.940 And you have Trump saying, oh, yeah, this war, it's kind of helping us.

01:18:42.920 We don't want them to have a nuclear weapon. 0.80

01:18:43.940 But, you know, yeah, we're helping Israel get rid of their big enemy. 0.91

01:18:47.780 And also, when we talk about these Persian Gulf states, what we mean are Persian Gulf dictatorships, 0.73

01:18:53.240 Arab dictatorships that have extreme levels of human rights abuses that we claim to be so offended when they appear in Iran.

01:19:02.160 You think protesters fare any better in Dubai or in Riyadh or in Doha or in any in Bahrain or Kuwait? 0.99

01:19:11.240 No, they or then Iran. No, they don't. And this idea, you know, we're and also the Strait of Hormuz, Trump himself said at the beginning out of frustration.

01:19:19.740 Look, if you're not willing to go to a war with Iran to open the Strait of Hormuz, we don't have to do it. 0.57

01:19:24.660 We don't need the Strait of Hormuz, which is true. We don't get oil from the Strait of Hormuz.

01:19:28.360 China does, and the Gulf states need the Strait of Hormuz to sell oil, but Trump is in bed with

01:19:35.320 these Persian Gulf dictators. He loves them, too. They're extremely rich. They have a kind of shared

01:19:39.800 aesthetic with this very ostentatious, gold-laden kind of wealth expression. He loves them. His

01:19:48.400 family's in bed with the Persian Gulf states, and he's very close to them. He listens to them,

01:19:53.880 and obviously to Israel. And I don't think these are good things for our country. Why are we 1.00

01:19:57.920 why are we prosecuting a war that's harming americans for the benefits of israel or these

01:20:02.860 persian gulf dictators and on the question of china yeah i mean opening up the strait of hormuz

01:20:08.300 is far more in china's interest than ours the problem is is that the only reason the strait

01:20:12.160 of hormuz is closed is because israel is because united states joined israel and attacking iran

01:20:17.520 it was perfectly open the strait of hormuz was prior to this war for forever it's only closed

01:20:22.080 now because it was a response to the attack on on iran and i think the rest of the world is like

01:20:26.880 you caused this problem. It's your responsibility to fix it. And I think it's a reasonable view

01:20:31.160 for most countries to have. It does make you wonder, though, if we did just pack up and go

01:20:35.860 home, would China swoop in and just make them open it? You know, like what if we really did

01:20:41.220 just say, yeah, sorry, but we're out. We did break the thing at Pottery Barn and we're not

01:20:47.280 going to pay for it. We're just going to walk out of the store like good luck getting us.

01:20:50.780 I mean, it would be kind of interesting. And I am so in favor of just wrapping it up for so many

01:20:54.680 reasons. That's very tempting to me. Probably the Chinese are much better positioned to make

01:20:59.780 the Iranians open it than we are since they're a big customer. I don't know. It seems like something

01:21:04.440 we should have on the table. Well, I think what would happen is Iran would just say China is more

01:21:10.520 than welcome to use this trade of Hormuz because of the power relationship, because they buy so

01:21:15.600 much oil from Iran from that area. And the Chinese do have a lot of power and leverage with Iran,

01:21:21.440 but they could charge for pretty much everybody else and they could do it on a country by country 0.84

01:21:26.240 basis. Remember, Iran is not closing the Strait of Hormuz. Iran is closing the Strait of Hormuz

01:21:31.560 for the United States, for people they don't want using the Strait of Hormuz and charging for the

01:21:35.740 rest. The United States is the one that has a blockade on any ships going to or from Iran.

01:21:41.300 So it's the United States that's blockading the Strait of Hormuz from the Chinese perspective, 0.55

01:21:44.740 not the Iranians. So if the Americans went home tomorrow, like you said, which I think we should 0.99

01:21:50.440 do because there's no benefit in continuing this war or anything else it's only harming Americans

01:21:54.620 the Chinese would be fine they do a lot of business with Iran Iran would perfectly allow

01:21:58.880 them to use this trade of Hormuz under whatever commercial terms the Chinese are comfortable with

01:22:02.900 this war is serving nobody's interest other than Israel's and yes there's animosity now

01:22:09.780 in Saudi Arabia and and and the Emirates and and and the the the the uh in Bahrain and and with the 0.73

01:22:17.840 with the Qataris because Iran attacked those countries and they attacked those countries

01:22:21.700 because the U.S. used military bases in them to attack Iran. They would work that out. They would

01:22:26.040 they they don't want regional conflict. They don't want to go to war with Iran. Iran's a huge country.

01:22:30.380 So everybody would be fine if they left tomorrow except one country. And that country's name is 1.00

01:22:34.360 Israel. That's the reason why Trump can't get out. Yes, correct. And that's the reason why

01:22:40.180 Trump got in. And it's the reason why he can't get out. And it's one of the reasons why Americans

01:22:45.420 are more disapproving of Israel now than ever. And that's not anti-Semitism. That's something

01:22:52.440 called policy, Benjamin Netanyahu, and time after time in which they've pulled us into

01:23:00.240 their fight. I mean, just the most recently, twice in the last year, June, and now again,

01:23:06.660 with this war. Okay, we have to take a break. We're going to be right back. Glenn stays with

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01:26:45.720 Hey, everyone. It's me, Megan

01:26:47.360 kelly i've got some exciting news i now have my very own channel on sirius xm it's called the

01:26:53.660 kelly channel and it is where you will hear the truth unfiltered with no agenda and no apologies

01:26:58.760 along with the megan kelly show you're going to hear from people like mark halperin link lauren

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01:27:09.380 no bs news only on the megan kelly channel sirius xm 111 and on the sirius xm app

01:27:17.360 Glenn Greenwald is back with me now.

01:27:22.440 So, Glenn, this week it came out that the Alec Murdaugh conviction for killing his wife and son, Paul, had been overturned and he's been granted a new trial by the Supreme Court of South Carolina.

01:27:39.420 Very interesting case. I think they 100% made the right decision, even though I think he's guilty, because there was a clerk of court named Becky Hill who clearly interfered with the jury, who there was testimony. She was explicitly telling them, watch his body language when he was taking the stand.

01:27:56.300 another juror who would ultimately be dismissed, the so-called egg juror, because she left her 0.99

01:28:00.520 eggs in the jury room. And when she got dismissed, said, can I go get my eggs, my dozen eggs in the 0.92

01:28:05.200 jury room, testified that Becky Hill explicitly said to her, you know, he's basically he's guilty.

01:28:12.120 I mean, like she really just explicit manipulation. This woman was very manipulative. And Alec Murdoch, 1.00

01:28:19.720 just like the rest of us, deserves a trial free from interference by the court clerk.

01:28:25.060 Now, one of the jurors, now, keep in mind, only three of the jurors said they even had any interaction with Becky Hill in which she said anything to them beyond there's the bathroom and here's your lunch.

01:28:37.320 And so NBC appears to have booked one of the ones who had nothing to do with Becky Hill.

01:28:41.220 And that person is named Amy Williams.

01:28:44.200 And this is what she had to say in Sat 25.

01:28:48.560 Five. Some jurors tonight in disbelief at the court's decision undoing their verdict.

01:28:55.740 And I was like, what? Why? The evidence was overwhelming. He was guilty.

01:29:03.640 Now we also get Alec Murdoch's reaction to the news breaking in The New York Times. He reportedly

01:29:08.740 said, quote, I still don't believe it. I don't believe it. Per his lawyers, they say he told

01:29:14.940 he told them that in prison. He did not believe that they, they've denied so many of his emotions.

01:29:20.660 He just didn't think he'd get one. They are going to move for a change of venue if and when

01:29:25.300 the new prosecution is filed either by the current AG or when his term ends. All those running for

01:29:30.560 the AG spot have all said they want to retry him too. And we debated on this show the other day

01:29:34.940 about whether they'd move for a change of venue, which is his hometown, and he might like it there.

01:29:39.560 And they are saying, indeed, they will try to seek a change of venue for this case.

01:29:44.940 The jurors, let's see, the state Supreme Court said the judge who oversaw the first trial had allowed prosecutors to go too far, too long and far too deep into his financial wrongdoings.

01:29:55.780 So if and when they do retry him, they will not be able to go deep on what a financial crook he was, which was the motive for the crimes.

01:30:04.480 That's why he killed them. He wanted sympathy as both his law firm and the plaintiffs in this other case were zeroing in on his finances.

01:30:14.320 and that's why he murdered his own family.

01:30:19.060 Now, meantime, he's already been convicted

01:30:21.060 for the financial crimes in a separate proceeding

01:30:23.780 and sentenced to a 27-year state prison sentence

01:30:27.420 and a 40-year federal sentence.

01:30:29.440 They're running concurrently

01:30:31.100 and even if he receives credit for good behavior,

01:30:33.520 the most likely outcome is that he'll be in prison

01:30:35.700 until his late 80s.

01:30:37.680 So what's the point of all this, Glenn?

01:30:39.620 And what is the point, while I have you,

01:30:41.240 of potentially retrying Harvey Weinstein because the jury in his latest New York City

01:30:49.080 criminal trial just returned, hopelessly deadlocked, and a mistrial was declared there too.

01:30:56.520 After he was found guilty, that case went up and it was argued to the New York State

01:31:00.800 Highest Court by our friend Arthur Idalla, who convinced that court they had let in a

01:31:05.360 bunch of female testimonials against him that had nothing to do with the charges and it

01:31:08.740 was too much undue prejudice they agreed they sent it back down this was the retrial which has

01:31:13.500 now ended in ruination because they couldn't convince a jury to convict him uh so he is he

01:31:19.080 headed for a third trial when he's going to be in jail for pretty much forever on the la conviction

01:31:23.840 is alec murdoch even though he's going to be in jail pretty much forever based on the financial

01:31:28.260 convictions i think both cases but especially this murdoch case are is so interesting in in

01:31:34.740 so many ways has a lot of really important lessons about how we think of the justice system

01:31:37.740 i mean i can understand why even if you're going to spend the rest of your life in jail

01:31:42.300 you would prefer not to have it reflected that you murdered your own wife and son for the most

01:31:48.900 sociopathic of reasons so i can understand why he would pursue that even if he were going to

01:31:55.340 remain in jail no matter what on these financial claims which as you say he would um that makes

01:31:59.560 sense to me but you know i i'll just uh there's always been this this idea that has been part of

01:32:06.700 our political discourse for so long about our criminal justice system that if somebody's guilty

01:32:10.500 they shouldn't be let off on what people often refer to as a technicality like oh this woman

01:32:16.080 made a few comments she shouldn't have made but everyone knows he's guilty why should we undo his

01:32:21.020 conviction when as that juror said it's so clear that he's guilty and i remember in my first in my

01:32:26.380 first year of law school i had this british professor who taught criminal procedure and he

01:32:31.660 was very british but he lived in the united states for 30 years he was an american citizen and he was

01:32:34.920 He once said that he remembers when he came to the United States and he started hearing.

01:32:39.800 It was very common in the 80s and 90s when people would say, why did they let this person off on a technicality?

01:32:44.780 And he said, I've never heard of a country that refers to its own constitution as a technicality before.

01:32:51.120 It matters.

01:32:52.140 You need a fair trial.

01:32:53.420 Putting someone in prison, like Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson said, it's better to let 10 guilty people go than to punish one innocent person.

01:33:02.100 like these rules really matter, putting people in a cage for life. You want to make sure the

01:33:06.360 rules are really abided by before we let the state do that. And even if he is undoubtedly guilty,

01:33:13.840 and I haven't studied the case in depth, but from what I've seen, I think the evidence is

01:33:18.380 overwhelming. I think a retrial is appropriate when you have an officer of the court influencing

01:33:23.700 the jury, even if she didn't influence it, tried to in ways that clearly if you were a defendant

01:33:28.580 or if it was your family member who was the defendant facing many years in prison on a horrible crime,

01:33:33.240 you would feel like that was totally a contaminated procedure.

01:33:36.820 And I think it's an important thing because also what you're talking about here is, you know,

01:33:40.180 he comes, as I'm sure you've talked about many times covering the story,

01:33:43.080 from like one of the most powerful families in South Carolina, you know,

01:33:46.120 generations of prosecutors and, you know, lead law enforcement officers, very wealthy,

01:33:52.180 very politically powerful, kind of an aristocratic South Carolina family.

01:33:55.400 I think it was so important to demonstrate that even somebody like that in South Carolina is going to be held accountable under the law.

01:34:02.620 And they really have done a very good job of doing so.

01:34:05.480 So I think it's also appropriate to retry him.

01:34:08.180 But also, like the Harvey Weinstein case, I think, also has such an important lesson about our criminal justice system.

01:34:14.300 I'll just tell you quickly. In Brazil, there was this case where there was this dog that got murdered.

01:34:20.900 um and it was like a beloved community dog it lived on the street but the whole community took

01:34:25.040 care of the dog it was like their dog even though he was technically homeless and the story was that

01:34:30.520 four teenage boys came and just tortured this dog beat it and then killed it can't hear it

01:34:36.240 yeah no as but anyway as it turned out like that because they were teenagers no media outlet would

01:34:43.140 report their their identity and so the internet found out their identities put their home addresses

01:34:48.780 all over the internet and actually wrote a column saying this kind of mob justice is very disturbing

01:34:53.000 because people can seem guilty based on what you know but the trial is a really important thing to

01:34:59.640 actually determine guilt or innocence they've exhumed they exhumed the body of the dog turns

01:35:03.800 out um they can't really find any signs that they were tortured the kids have always denied it but

01:35:08.420 their lives are ruined because of this internet mob justice i think in the harvey weinstein case

01:35:12.920 i'm not going to compare him to to them and suggest that he he's not guilty he's a horrible

01:35:18.680 person but i do think the me too excesses produced a lot of hysteria where they changed laws about

01:35:25.580 how long you can you have to bring cases that's why agent carroll was able to sue donald trump

01:35:30.540 and i think it's so important that we not let the media social media political impulses dictate

01:35:39.520 outcomes of who we decide are guilty and innocent. The laws and the rules that we have,

01:35:45.160 even though they seem legalistic, have been developed over centuries. They're going back

01:35:48.680 to British law and European enlightenment concepts. These were designed by our founders

01:35:53.040 and shrined in the Constitution. These are really important. And I think it's very

01:35:56.240 good to have these kind of cases that illustrate there, even though it seems like it's an annoying

01:36:02.540 bureaucratic process that often impedes justice. At the end of the day, it is the system that

01:36:08.600 high as the highest potential of producing justice. Yes, I totally agree. I do agree with

01:36:14.700 everything you said. And that was one of the big things we weren't getting was trial by jury

01:36:18.480 when we had our revolution and demanded a new way. And that's why it's in the Constitution as a right

01:36:23.820 we all have to a trial by jury of our peers. And that jury must be impartial or as practically

01:36:29.540 impartial as we can get in today's day and age. And he did not have that because of Becky Hill.

01:36:35.240 So that's we got to do it. All right. This is a left field story, but I love these stories. 0.67

01:36:41.300 So I've decided to bring this to you, Glenn. We have another pretendian in the news. 1.00

01:36:46.360 What is a pretendian, you ask? It is someone pretending to be an Indian for cultural status, fake degrees, honorary degrees. 1.00

01:36:54.040 Of course, we must pay homage to the original pretendian. 0.93

01:36:59.160 And that would be Elizabeth Warren, who, for our younger viewers who don't remember this, she pretended to be an Indian for many years, was listed on the Harvard Law School faculty roster as a Native American, tried to write a cookbook based on her Native American heritage, which was fake. 0.69

01:37:17.520 She has no Native American heritage whatsoever, but she got away for years by claiming she was. And this is how she explained her lies when it came out that she wasn't. Sot 32B.

01:37:29.160 I still have a picture on my mantle at home, and it's a picture my mother had before that, a picture of my grandfather. 0.84

01:37:36.340 And my Aunt Bea has walked by that picture at least a thousand times, remarked that her father, my papa, had high cheekbones like all of the Indians do, because that's how she saw it.

01:37:52.740 And she said, and your mother got those same great cheekbones, and I didn't.

01:37:58.180 she thought this was the bad deal she had gotten in life. Being Native American has been part of

01:38:05.420 my story, I guess, since the day I was born. Okay, it was part of her story. All right. It

01:38:13.340 was a fake part of her story. It was totally made up. These are lies she was telling.

01:38:19.140 Yeah, she was advertised as Harvard's first Native American law professor. 1.00

01:38:23.820 In any event, we like the stories about the pretendians. And here is another one. 1.00

01:38:27.340 She has just her name is Buffy St. Marie. She was awarded an honorary doctorate of law degree from the University of Toronto in 2019. At the time, they said she was being recognized for her work in music and the arts, as well as for her advocacy for the rights and dignity of all people.

01:38:45.480 But on Wednesday, the university voted to rescind her honorary degree because she was lying about her identity. 1.00

01:38:56.940 She is not an Indian.

01:38:59.060 She pretended that she was, Glenn, and it came out in 2023, per the CBC, that's the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation,

01:39:08.000 that even though Buffy St. Marie had appeared on Sesame Street in the 1970s,

01:39:12.600 She'd won numerous awards, including an Oscar in 1983 for co-writing the song Up Where We Belong.

01:39:17.940 She became considered the first indigenous person to ever win the award.

01:39:22.220 She appeared on a Canadian stamp, but it turned out that she faked her indigenous ancestry.

01:39:30.560 And here is how the CBC reported that in 23.

01:39:34.080 Her niece, Heidi St. Marie, says her aunt's ancestry story is an elaborate fabrication.

01:39:40.620 I mean, she's clearly born in the United States.

01:39:43.460 She's clearly not Indigenous or Native American.

01:39:47.640 The fifth estate obtained St. Marie's birth certificate,

01:39:50.540 which indicates she was born in Stonham, Massachusetts,

01:39:54.240 to white parents, Albert and Winifred Santa Maria,

01:39:57.900 the very people St. Marie claims adopted her.

01:40:01.500 Her lawyer says that document may not be authentic,

01:40:04.760 but the Stonham town clerk says that's not possible.

01:40:07.760 I can say absolutely with 100% certainty that this is the original birth certificate.

01:40:15.980 She was not born in Canada.

01:40:18.700 So we're thrilled. 1.00

01:40:20.360 We are thrilled that yet another pretend Indian, pretendian, is outed and is losing the fake honors she obtained through lying. 1.00

01:40:32.040 I mean, this must happen, and then they must be shamed in order to stop this from continuing, Glenn. 1.00

01:40:37.760 There are always really hilarious aspects to each one of these incidents and then also some interesting and important lessons.

01:40:43.760 But just on Elizabeth Warren, I once read a law review article when this all emerged and I was looking into it.

01:40:51.780 That was about the failure of Harvard or Ivy League schools to hire professors, women of color as professors.

01:40:59.160 And then there was a footnote saying there are some exceptions. 0.95

01:41:02.980 Like this woman got hired at Yale. 0.98

01:41:04.740 This black woman is at Princeton. 0.76

01:41:07.000 and then elizabeth warren was hired the first harvard made the first would hired the first 0.90

01:41:12.060 native american elizabeth warren was first to us oh no a woman of color and she all those years she 0.91

01:41:17.940 knew this i mean she of course understood that that's how she's like the whitest woman on the

01:41:22.000 planet and also i always just thought like trump as we know is actually funny and the media gets

01:41:27.440 confused by that and he would this was always such an inversion of the truth he would refer to

01:41:31.660 uh elizabeth warren as pocahontas he even did it once when he was meeting native american

01:41:36.480 tribe leaders in the White House. And the media was always like, that's racist against Native

01:41:40.660 Americans. He was never mocking Native Americans. He was mocking Elizabeth Warren, who is not Native

01:41:45.500 American, for pretending to be Native American. And they just still to this day insist that the 0.85

01:41:51.240 Pocahontas nickname for Elizabeth Warren, which is perfect, is somehow racist against Native

01:41:55.240 Americans. And I do think the interesting thing in the story is like we're constantly told 0.98

01:41:59.340 that white people have all the advantages, that marginalized groups are treated so poorly or

01:42:04.820 excluded and denied opportunities why is it that there are so many of these stories like rachel

01:42:10.240 dozel who is that white woman who worked for the naacp and pretended to be black braided her hair

01:42:14.460 yeah dozel um why are why are there so many of these stories where white people are pretending

01:42:19.660 to be members of marginalized groups like you would think of marginalized groups were treated

01:42:22.860 so terribly nobody you you would have it in the other direction like oh i'm going to pretend to

01:42:26.940 be white because that's the way you get treated well in society that's the way you get no but

01:42:31.080 it's always these reverse stories and look at how many honors she got look at how respectfully she 0.58

01:42:36.440 was treated almost worshiped as this like indigenous woman when and she lied about her

01:42:42.180 own parents like because of course she has the whitest name ever and those parents have the

01:42:45.860 whitest names ever and you see that all this she didn't do anything other than identify falsely as

01:42:52.520 an indigenous woman and all these honors and liberal culture is so effed up when it comes to

01:42:58.820 what it values and what it prioritizes little i didn't even know this um maybe i knew it i forgot 0.91

01:43:04.960 it but that sachin little feather who accepted marlon brando's um oscar for the godfather but

01:43:12.340 she showed up at the oscar and she delivered a speech and it was about the treatment of native

01:43:16.140 americans and how bad it is she was a pretendian she was not actually american yeah she was a

01:43:23.720 they put feathers in their hair like again it's always so condescending it's like yeah i remember

01:43:29.720 that she showed up and marlon brando rejected his oscar to protest the treatment of native

01:43:33.800 americans is that her as his symbol of the the mistreatment of and she was fake she was just a

01:43:39.280 white girl yes her family after she died in 2022 came forward and said she'd been lying about her

01:43:46.120 background this is in the san francisco chronicle uh they said their sisters claimed to have apache

01:43:51.080 and Yaqui Ancestry through her father

01:43:53.960 was, quote, a lie and a fantasy.

01:43:56.640 It's, you gotta love it.

01:43:58.500 Accountability, Glenn.

01:43:59.820 Appreciate it.

01:44:01.060 Thank you for helping walk me through it

01:44:03.100 and have a wonderful weekend, my dear.

01:44:05.080 Always great to see you, Megan.

01:44:06.560 Talk to you soon.

01:44:07.940 You too, you too. 1.00

01:44:10.360 Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show.

01:44:12.320 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - May 15, 2026

Colbert's Hissy Fit Farewell Tour, Xi's Ominous Comment, and Murdaugh's New Trial, with Glenn Greenwald ｜ Ep. 1318

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