The Megyn Kelly Show - COVID Reality on Kids and Masks, the Wuhan Lab, and Vaccines, with Dr. Nicole Saphier and Dr. Lucy McBride ｜ Ep. 107

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00:01:01.320 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:01:03.240 Your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:01:12.600 Hey everyone, it's me, Megyn Kelly.

00:01:14.980 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:01:16.340 Today we get back into COVID.

00:01:18.800 We've got a lot to update you on.

00:01:20.460 The restrictions remain in too many places, especially when it comes to our children and masks,

00:01:25.980 and still you and your mask, certainly in the Northeast and other states that have been hit hard by COVID.

00:01:31.180 Texas and Governor Abbott have been proven prescient and pretty smart when it comes to how they get out of this pandemic

00:01:37.840 and sort of admitting that the crisis, that the emergency is over.

00:01:40.940 Today we are joined by two really smart doctors, two women, who have been really smart in predicting how this would go down.

00:01:49.160 And they've been pretty brave.

00:01:51.440 Our second doctor who you're going to hear from, Dr. Lucy McBride, she goes on MSNBC.

00:01:55.820 She writes in The Atlantic and she's been saying, let's get honest.

00:01:59.480 It's time.

00:02:00.200 Why are we having our kids run around outside with masks on?

00:02:02.700 It isn't good for them.

00:02:03.800 It's not healthy physically, emotionally, what have you.

00:02:07.700 And she is somebody who the CDC listens to.

00:02:11.080 So like she's got real influence.

00:02:13.260 And our first doctor, Dr. Nicole Sapphire, she's a radiologist at Memorial Sloan Kettering.

00:02:18.520 She's also the author of the book Panic Attack, playing politics with science in the fight against COVID-19.

00:02:25.740 And she's been out there from the very beginning saying, look, this looks like it began in a Wuhan lab, 0.62

00:02:33.380 that there was what appears to have been at least an accidental release.

00:02:38.200 And she's been getting real honest about do we need masks?

00:02:43.080 Do kids need them even inside?

00:02:44.980 And talking about whether vaccinated people can give this virus to other unvaccinated or vaccinated people.

00:02:51.780 Anyway, all sorts of insights coming your way.

00:02:53.760 And Lucy, you'll hear, is somebody who she's an internist in Washington, D.C.

00:02:58.020 She's a mental health advocate.

00:02:59.500 And she's also got a COVID newsletter.

00:03:00.960 If you want to check it out, you might find that interesting, especially after listening to her at lucymcbride.com.

00:03:05.920 So getting to Dr. Sapphire and Dr. McBride in one second.

00:03:10.480 But first this.

00:03:17.400 Dr. Sapphire. 0.81

00:03:18.940 Hi, Megan.

00:03:19.560 Thanks for having me on.

00:03:20.860 Thank you for being here.

00:03:22.020 It's a pleasure.

00:03:22.600 I'm looking forward to our discussion.

00:03:24.240 I feel like there's been so much BS out there.

00:03:27.160 And, you know, it's like a full time job separating fact from fiction when it comes to COVID as it has been since the beginning.

00:03:33.740 Yeah.

00:03:34.460 All right.

00:03:34.700 Let's start with this.

00:03:35.760 I just got my second Pfizer shot yesterday.

00:03:38.440 So I suppose two weeks from now I'm considered fully vaccinated, though I think I'm fully vaccinated now.

00:03:43.620 So let me ask you about that.

00:03:44.880 So we've got 50% fully vaccinated of adults.

00:03:47.720 We have got well more than that who have who have been partially vaccinated.

00:03:53.140 One one shot in the arm, almost almost 60% of the eligible population.

00:03:57.480 And we've got an op-ed by a doctor I really like, Marty McCary.

00:04:01.120 He came on our show.

00:04:01.940 He's from Hopkins a couple of days ago in the New York Post saying, look, the U.S. positive rate is now at a record low.

00:04:07.240 It's below 3% between all these vaccinations and natural immunity from people who have actually had the infection.

00:04:14.200 He's like, this is called herd immunity.

00:04:17.340 We have it.

00:04:18.320 Why won't we admit it?

00:04:19.560 Do you agree with that?

00:04:20.860 Actually, Marty and I are good friends pre-COVID.

00:04:23.700 He has now blurbed both of my books, my first one and now the second one.

00:04:27.460 We have been in daily communication since the beginning of this pandemic.

00:04:32.180 And, you know, I completely agree with him.

00:04:35.400 You know, I had a piece that came out in the Wall Street Journal a couple months ago that said, you know, Fauci, tear off these masks.

00:04:41.360 Because by Memorial Day, I said it will be at an acceptable level where we shouldn't be wearing masks.

00:04:47.840 And I dubbed Memorial Day to be called a mascapation.

00:04:51.560 That's my new name for this time of year.

00:04:54.900 And, you know, I think that's the one thing that McCary and I have really continued to stand firm on in that, unfortunately, people are continuing to neglect the fact that natural immunity is proving to be quite strong.

00:05:07.740 Now, that's not to say that we would have encouraged natural immunity to get us to herd immunity, because obviously a lot more people would die.

00:05:15.420 It was the combination of existing natural immunity with the robust vaccine campaign that has gotten us where we are.

00:05:21.940 But yet, if you talk about natural immunity, you're deemed anti-vax, which is which is crazy.

00:05:27.540 Right. Rand Paul is under attack right now from some saying, oh, he's you know, he's absurd because he's like he's a doctor.

00:05:35.760 He says, I'm not going to get the vaccine because I had covid and I'm going to rely on my natural immunity.

00:05:41.220 By the way, my own doctor here in New York, who's an infectious disease specialist, said you don't need the vaccine if you've had covid, which I haven't had covid.

00:05:50.280 So I got the vaccine. But why are people rejecting that, including isn't the CDC also rejecting that the CDC is also saying get get vaxxed, even if you've had it?

00:05:58.940 Well, the CDC and you also have heard Dr. Fauci since the beginning saying that if we want to get to herd immunity, up to 90 percent of the population will have to get vaccinated.

00:06:07.280 And that's just the most preposterous statement. I mean, it's hard not to laugh, but but it's not funny.

00:06:12.760 It's not funny, those statements coming out because they're so wrong and they give the public this perception that we're never going to be at herd immunity and that we're going to be in this perpetual state of lockdown and crises.

00:06:24.320 But that's just not true. And all you have to really do is look at the cases in terms of new cases, hospitalizations and deaths.

00:06:31.180 And we have reached all time lows since the beginning of the pandemic.

00:06:34.500 We have gotten to a very safe spot in the sense that the emergency is over and it is time for Dr. Fauci, the CDC and President Biden to come forth and admit the emergency is over.

00:06:46.040 Now, the pandemic is not over, but the emergency is.

00:06:48.960 But the reason that they continue to neglect the fact that natural immunity contributed to this is because they think if you actually acknowledge natural immunity, then people won't get the vaccine.

00:06:58.960 But that's not the case, because if you're not being fully transparent with people, they're going to catch on.

00:07:04.280 Americans are a lot smarter that some of these old guard medical establishments would like to think them to be.

00:07:09.620 And so they catch on when they when some of these statements don't make any sense.

00:07:13.860 And that is why you start seeing the skepticism rise.

00:07:17.240 Well, I'm sick of Fauci misleading us for our own good.

00:07:20.160 What does he think he is, my daddy? You know, it's like first he says, don't wear the masks because they do nothing.

00:07:25.000 Then he says, oh, you have to wear them all the time. That was just a lie. So you didn't buy up all the PPE, all the PPE.

00:07:29.920 The latest one was he said a couple of months ago.

00:07:33.280 Yeah, you do still need to wear the mask, even if you've been double vaxxed.

00:07:37.680 And Rand Paul again said, isn't that just really performance?

00:07:40.180 You don't need the mask if you've been double vaxxed. And he took offense at that.

00:07:43.800 It's absolutely not. Now he takes off the mask and says, good news.

00:07:46.880 If you've been double vaxxed, you don't you don't need to wear the mask.

00:07:50.020 I mean, I could go on about the Fauci misleading for, you know, supposedly for our own good, because now even now he admits, yeah, I just didn't you know, I just didn't want to set a bad example.

00:07:59.120 So why did you lie? Why did you lie to Rand Paul?

00:08:01.320 And now again, here we are, you know, natural immunity doesn't count.

00:08:05.380 It's all about the vaccine. And now we're there.

00:08:08.040 We're at herd immunity. And these I don't know.

00:08:10.780 I think they're just fear mongers refuse to set us free, because as you point out, their refusal to align with the science and the facts, they really do have it does have consequences on real Americans lives.

00:08:23.980 Listen, when you go back a year ago, when they said we need to do these restrictions, we don't have any information about this virus.

00:08:29.720 We don't have treatments. We don't have a vaccine.

00:08:31.840 OK, I understand. In the beginning, we needed to do that because they did have some effect.

00:08:36.160 But then when the time the summer rolled around in the states that were doing really well, they had a hard time loosening up on any of those restrictions.

00:08:44.080 Even California, by the end of summer, said no more outdoor dining.

00:08:47.740 Yet they they couldn't point to the to any any truth that outdoor dining was contributing to their rise in cases.

00:08:54.780 And with Dr. Fauci, unfortunately, that messaging when he has gone back and said, well, you may have needed masks, but I didn't want people to go and hoard the hoard the masks.

00:09:04.420 And then he has recently said, well, in terms of the I keep moving the mark with herd immunity, it's because Americans are finally ready to hear what I have to say.

00:09:14.700 And now just recently he has said, you know, people said, Dr. Fauci, why are you still wearing a mask when you're around other vaccinated individuals?

00:09:22.280 And Dr. Fauci said, well, I wanted to wait until the CDC updated their recommendation so that we didn't have conflicting messages.

00:09:29.880 But I'm like, hey, you are supposed to be the leader. Leaders need to push back when they see something wrong going on.

00:09:37.040 If you do not push back against the CDC, the FDA, the WHO and information coming out of China, then you're a bystander.

00:09:44.720 You're not the leader that the country needed you to be.

00:09:47.020 Yep. It was originally he said, oh, herd immunity at 55 to 70 percent of the population haven't become immune.

00:09:54.820 And now as soon as it started to look like more people would get the vaccine, he switched that to, well, it could be 75 to 90 percent of the country.

00:10:01.640 I mean, I just don't listen to him anymore. I think Dr. Fauci has lost credibility.

00:10:06.520 There's just no reason to even factor him in because he misleads by his own admission so often.

00:10:11.340 And we're not stupid to your point earlier. We get it. Fauci is not an honest broker. 0.90

00:10:16.200 So we got to move on and find people who are. But the other problem we're facing right now is that the media, they're not honest brokers either.

00:10:23.920 And I know you've pointed out that these panic inciting headlines about breakthrough cases when somebody has been vaxxed and gets covid like the Yankee, the New York Yankee who got it and Bill Maher who got it.

00:10:38.640 But your point is the media is making way too much of those. Why?

00:10:44.520 You know, again, I think that you look back in the history of our nation and, you know, politicians have always weaponized our fear in a means to get elected.

00:10:54.540 You know, vote for me. I'll save the economy. Vote for me. I'll save you from the pandemic.

00:10:58.100 Well, the media is doing the same thing because, as they've woefully proven throughout this entire year, that they are aligned with certain political narratives.

00:11:06.100 They are not the unbiased media that we would have them to be.

00:11:09.020 I mean, even myself, I can tell you, I was criticized heavily on certain networks when I gave any sort of credence to a possible lab mistake error that could have contributed to the pandemic.

00:11:21.880 And, you know, now all of a sudden, because Dr. Fauci says it's a possibility, well, I guess it's a possibility.

00:11:26.300 But where are the retraction pieces calling me wrong in the fact that everything I said was discredited by real experts?

00:11:35.140 You know, but that's one of the reasons why I wrote the book Panic Attack, because it was appalling to me that how big tech in the media immediately with knee jerk anti-Trumpism was working tirelessly to prove President Trump wrong.

00:11:49.460 And everything that he did and they were raising up Dr. Fauci is the white knight and the hero of the pandemic when the truth is, we still didn't know we needed the trial and error discord.

00:12:01.060 That's normal in science. What's not normal is what the media did and politicized that discord.

00:12:06.920 Yes. In your book, Chapter seven, you have a great line.

00:12:10.360 I have it underlined and highlighting highlighted saying there's been there's not been a shortage of blunders in response to covid.

00:12:17.100 But public denialism and malfeasance are not major contributors, not right to the blunders.

00:12:22.760 Rather, it is the weaponization of a public health crisis to invoke panic in an election year that resulted in the greatest consequences, which will be felt for years to come.

00:12:34.920 So what do you mean by that? I get it. But expand on that.

00:12:37.700 I mean, honestly, I could talk about this for hours, but I can tell you that right now you the very basic example, children and not being in school.

00:12:46.440 They have got we have created this perceived risk of covid-19 in our young children.

00:12:52.740 People are so fearful of it that not only have they kept children out of school, but when they're forced to go back to school, they're making these young children actually wear masks.

00:13:01.140 But if you really look at the real risk of covid-19 to children, it does not parallel the perceived risk.

00:13:08.140 And in fact, the CDC is the only entity in the world that is saying children over two years of age need to be wearing masks at all times.

00:13:15.820 And and on top of that, when you talk about the social isolation, the mental health anguish, the rise of suicide attempts amongst our children, the substance abuse, there is so much that has come out of all of these restrictions.

00:13:32.580 But it's because they have put out this perceived level of risk that wasn't necessarily real.

00:13:39.860 Yes. And they won't let go of it.

00:13:42.700 I mean, this is the battle that we're fighting now, which is, you know, what happened to follow the science, believe science?

00:13:48.880 We do. And the science is saying the kids are not significant transmitters of covid.

00:13:54.940 They are not where the risk is, nor is there an emergency for them that would justify vaccines in these young ones.

00:14:02.400 And yet this is where it's going. I mean, this is already where it's going.

00:14:06.420 And when when you say, all right, well, I mean, like I'm relieved personally that all my kids are under the age of 12 and I don't have to vaccinate.

00:14:12.700 You know, right now, I just feel like it's not necessary in the risk benefit calculations to it's not the right way for it to justify a vaccine of my seven year old.

00:14:21.060 And what I hear in response to that is, oh, don't worry, it'll be ready for him by by September.

00:14:26.360 Fauci's like, you know, hopefully we're going to have the vaccines ready for for kids as young as two by September.

00:14:31.940 And and sooner or later, all babies are going to have to get it.

00:14:35.780 There is zero chance I would give my baby a covid vaccine.

00:14:39.020 Well, Megan, I can tell you, I have been speaking on this and writing on this a lot.

00:14:43.600 And I agree with you. I have three kids of my own and I can tell you two are under the age of 12.

00:14:48.940 My oldest is 21. He made the decision to get vaccinated on his own accord.

00:14:53.500 He teaches summer camps over the summer and he works with autistic children.

00:14:57.600 And he said he would feel terrible if he gave the virus to a disabled child.

00:15:03.240 And I applaud him for that. He didn't do it for himself. He did it for those around him.

00:15:07.300 And that's why most young adults, we encourage vaccinations.

00:15:10.440 But when it comes to vaccinating the young children, as I have said, covid is not an emergency in them,

00:15:17.160 especially as viral transmission has gone down, as we have gotten new data that showed even the low hospitalization rate of young children has now even been inflated.

00:15:25.920 So the risk of severe illness is even lower than we thought and under no way, shape or form should the vaccine be expanded under emergency use authorization for these young children,

00:15:36.400 because covid is not an emergency for them. And to just expand it through that without seeking the full FDA approval is irresponsible, in my opinion.

00:15:44.460 Right. And why are they why? Why are they doing that to our kids?

00:15:49.520 I understand the pressure on the grownups to get the vaccine. Totally get it.

00:15:53.740 Why are they so focused on the children with the masks and the vaccines?

00:15:58.500 It's like we have gotten to herd immunity already without mandating that.

00:16:04.100 So what is it like they just want to drive the vaccination numbers up or what?

00:16:08.880 So I think that there are a few things here, Megan.

00:16:11.140 First of all, we we vaccinate the most vulnerable, right, our elderly, because that's going to save the most amount of lives.

00:16:17.640 That's going to keep the most amount of people out of the hospital and keep our country functioning.

00:16:21.500 You move on to the younger populations, not necessarily the children, but the younger populations, young adults, because they can still transmit the virus.

00:16:29.920 They're not may not be hospitalized for it, but they're transmitting it.

00:16:32.480 And when you transmit the virus, that is how those variants form.

00:16:35.700 And unfortunately, at one point, a variant may form that's going to escape the immunity.

00:16:41.200 And we will start all over again, which that is why we don't want that to happen.

00:16:45.340 However, thus far, every single variant is covered by the vaccines and looks like natural immunity.

00:16:51.360 The Brazilian variant has a little bit more breakthrough infections than the rest.

00:16:55.000 But natural immunity, vaccine induced immunity has been very strong.

00:16:58.480 And as we see, our community viral transmission level is so low.

00:17:02.480 I think they're just having a really hard time letting go.

00:17:05.720 The emergency is over.

00:17:07.240 It's over.

00:17:08.080 We got to let it go, people.

00:17:09.640 That's right.

00:17:10.760 It's like Macri said, at some point, we have to live our lives.

00:17:13.140 That time is now.

00:17:14.740 And the goal, it was never to prevent any tests from coming back positive for COVID, right?

00:17:21.080 I mean, like, yes, there may be some random, rare breakthrough infections.

00:17:25.180 It's meaningless.

00:17:26.260 The goal was to prevent serious illness and death.

00:17:29.420 And the vaccines do that.

00:17:31.520 That's happening.

00:17:32.380 And you can even with the holdouts on the vaccines, the country's numbers are falling

00:17:37.780 precipitously when it comes to positive tests and serious illness as a result of COVID.

00:17:42.760 We have to stop doing surveillance testing, especially on the vaccinated.

00:17:47.160 It is the most ridiculous waste of resources you can imagine.

00:17:50.760 Yes, you want a snapshot of how much virus is still circulating. 0.92

00:17:53.780 But again, we need to start looking at how many people are hospitalized, how many how many

00:17:58.020 severe illnesses there are, not how much asymptomatic cases there are, because as we know, as you've

00:18:03.160 reached herd immunity, even if you are an asymptomatic case, your ability to give it to someone else

00:18:08.320 is very low.

00:18:09.320 And it doesn't matter.

00:18:10.680 It's just like swabbing people for having MRSA on their skin.

00:18:14.800 MRSA can be a deadly bacterial infection.

00:18:17.140 But people have it all the time.

00:18:18.960 But we're just not walking around swabbing them because it's not causing a problem.

00:18:22.520 It only causes a problem if they're immunocompromised or they have an infection.

00:18:26.680 That's when we look for it.

00:18:28.020 We need to start moving our train of thought from testing everyone just to see if the presence of the virus is there to whether it is actually clinically significant.

00:18:39.560 We have to move towards that.

00:18:40.900 And what are the odds of a vaccinated person spreading COVID to another vaccinated person?

00:18:47.680 You're saying even to a non-vaccinated person, it's it's they're they're not an effective spreader once they've had the vaccine.

00:18:55.140 But what are the odds of a vaccinated person actually spreading spreading it to a vaccinated person in a way that would be deadly or problematic for the recipient?

00:19:04.420 It's you know, there's I can't even give you an actual figure, but there's been various claims that show that the risk of that happening is so exceedingly low.

00:19:14.360 It is just negligible.

00:19:15.900 I mean, it's it's unmeasurable how low that risk is.

00:19:20.020 Now, again, you've been vaccinated.

00:19:22.180 If you've been vaccinated and an unvaccinated person who has COVID comes by you.

00:19:27.360 What are the odds that they can give it to you?

00:19:30.000 So here's the thing.

00:19:31.080 You have to remember, not everyone responds the same to vaccinations.

00:19:34.440 You have people who just don't mount a strong response for whatever reason.

00:19:38.820 That's why none of the vaccines have said they were 100 percent efficacious in all adults and also those who have certain autoimmune diseases on medications, transplant recipients.

00:19:48.940 They don't necessarily mount a strong immune response to the vaccine, but they are still mounting an immune response much like more.

00:19:56.420 Mostly are more than 50 percent, which is better than the flu vaccine, mind you.

00:20:01.440 So, again, when you have more people in a population who have some form of immunity, even if you're not at 100 percent, the risk of that virus transmitting between two vaccinated people, two immune people or even one person with immunity to one person without immunity is very low.

00:20:18.620 So if you are high risk, if you still have concerns, wear a mask, avoid gatherings, that's fine.

00:20:26.380 Whatever you want to do to live your life.

00:20:28.340 But for the greater good of the population, it's unnecessary.

00:20:31.700 Yes. And now but what you get in terms of the fear mongering is what if variants one never knows.

00:20:41.720 You know, we just saw that the teachers unions, the second largest run by Randy Weingarten, who's citing debunked and conspiracy based facts about alleged facts, but really lies about Florida and the numbers there to try to push back on schools and what's happening down there.

00:20:58.280 So this person is not a not a reliable person to listen to, but they basically the claim is variants, variants, variants, variants.

00:21:06.500 And that's why we had to have interminable masking.

00:21:08.840 Even the CDC director, right, Walensky, Rochelle Walensky, that she she can't take good news if it hits her over the head.

00:21:16.160 She just goes back to the variants.

00:21:17.840 They're a wild card.

00:21:19.160 They could reverse the progress at any time.

00:21:21.480 And your pal Macri, he was saying, why would any doctor say that right now?

00:21:26.460 Right. It's unproven.

00:21:27.740 It's unlikely.

00:21:29.720 And, you know, it's like it's like I mean, you're in the in the cancer prevention and treatment business.

00:21:33.860 It's like saying to a cancer patient, he says, when you're discharging them from from the hospital after a long and successful battle with cancer.

00:21:41.740 Remember, there's a small chance it could come back.

00:21:43.340 It could come back at any time.

00:21:45.280 So my message to every patient that I tell have cancer and then they get through their treatment is they they understand that there is risk with everything in life.

00:21:53.160 But if all you do is focus on that risk and perseverate over that risk, what was the point of prolonging your life?

00:21:59.580 Because you're no longer enjoying your life.

00:22:01.500 You're no longer living your life.

00:22:02.760 And I mean, I have many criticisms of Randy Weingarten, the teachers union leader.

00:22:07.860 But, you know, she tweeted out showing the CDC study.

00:22:11.140 This is the problem with people who like to cherry pick data based off of headlines and don't actually read the studies is that she was like, you know what?

00:22:18.920 Here's the CDC data.

00:22:20.120 It shows masking in schools that helps decrease transmission.

00:22:24.120 So therefore, schools need to have masks in the fall.

00:22:27.960 And it's like, did you read that study?

00:22:30.240 Because let me tell you what that study showed.

00:22:32.280 Yes.

00:22:32.540 Last fall, the CDC looked at elementary schools K through five.

00:22:36.120 They found the two metrics that reduced spread of the virus were with increased ventilation, you know, whether it's filtration systems, windows open, what have you.

00:22:46.920 But also teachers wearing masks.

00:22:49.320 And that was, again, before the vaccine.

00:22:51.260 When it came to whether the children were wearing masks or not, that was actually not statistically significant, having a reduction in viral transmission.

00:22:58.900 So she really just negated her own argument.

00:23:01.740 Listen, teachers are now vaccinated.

00:23:03.860 The vaccines are stronger than those masks are.

00:23:06.120 Those teachers are safe.

00:23:07.360 And the parents of the children who are going to school, if they want to be vaccinated, they're safe too.

00:23:12.820 So the children should be in that school.

00:23:14.760 They should be in person, full time, and without masks on.

00:23:18.440 And yes, if there are outbreaks, they can take a look at that.

00:23:21.360 But I'll tell you, the levels right now are lower than previously present flu levels, which people have deemed acceptable.

00:23:27.940 And when it comes to severity in children, COVID-19 is not more severe than some of the worst flu seasons for children.

00:23:35.020 And we never were masking up.

00:23:36.640 They were not canceling school.

00:23:37.960 And they certainly weren't doing their schooling on Zoom.

00:23:41.020 She won't listen to reason. 0.98

00:23:42.380 And unfortunately, Randy's very powerful, right?

00:23:45.100 She runs the second largest union in the country.

00:23:47.040 She said this in response to Texas.

00:23:49.780 The governor there has said that public schools in Texas are not allowed to mandate face masks as of this June.

00:23:57.500 So it is not an option to mandate them.

00:24:00.180 If you want to send your kid to school in a mask, you may.

00:24:02.900 He's not saying you may not do it.

00:24:04.940 He's saying the government may not require it.

00:24:07.480 The school may not require you to mask up your kid.

00:24:10.260 And still, she pushes back.

00:24:12.200 And this is the quote.

00:24:13.720 Last week, quote, a study conducted by the CDC found that masks were a key factor in stopping the spread of COVID.

00:24:19.740 This is another, another reckless and dangerous move from the governor of Texas, right?

00:24:24.580 I mean, they love to beat up on Governor Abbott, but he's been right.

00:24:28.460 All of their prognostications on what would happen in Texas when he lifted the mandates before have turned out to be wrong.

00:24:34.580 And as you just pointed out, this one's wrong, too.

00:24:37.760 She, Randy, is misleading.

00:24:39.680 Again, it ties down to this fear-mongering, and I really don't understand it.

00:24:44.100 You know, I wrote an opinion piece last summer when teachers were not wanting to go back to school, and you were seeing those protests saying, how can we teach your children if we're dead?

00:24:53.760 You know, all of these panic-inciting headlines, again, the impetus of my book.

00:24:58.080 And I said, hey, you guys are frontline workers.

00:25:02.080 You are tasked with educating our young generations.

00:25:06.280 Let's figure out a way to get you back to work, just like the rest of us frontline workers have been doing since the beginning of the pandemic.

00:25:13.560 And they need to, I needed them to change their mindset and to see their importance of their role.

00:25:18.900 What has happened over the last year?

00:25:20.660 You see, education levels are down.

00:25:23.120 Face mask wearing, we're only going to see the consequences of that.

00:25:26.200 We know that facial recognition is vital when it comes to childhood development, and children are not developing those social skills that they need to develop to become human beings and functioning members of society.

00:25:39.140 This data is all going to come in the next few years.

00:25:41.960 The people tasked with educating our children need to treat themselves like frontline workers. 1.00

00:25:45.880 They are protected with the vaccines.

00:25:47.740 There's ample supply.

00:25:49.000 If they want to get vaccinated, get vaccinated, but stop punishing the children.

00:25:53.280 Totally.

00:25:53.620 Plus, it's like, why is the lady who is, you know, probably in her late 60s, who checks me out at the grocery store, who deals with far more people on an intimate basis, you know, up close and in her face, grownups, by the way, they're in the grocery store doing her essential job.

00:26:09.340 And the teachers, who can stay far away from the children if they need to, they don't have to be on top of each other, pretending that it's unsafe for them to be with a far more low risk population.

00:26:19.860 We all know it's a lie.

00:26:21.840 It's an absurdity.

00:26:23.540 So, but down in Texas, they have reason, unlike here in the Northeast, where these states are still cowering in fear.

00:26:30.420 But just to go back to the Texas thing, Randy says, you know, another reckless and dangerous move from the governor of Texas.

00:26:37.000 This follows up on everybody melting down when Governor Abbott lifted a lot of the mandates there and actually threatened to find cities and local officials if they imposed mask mandates.

00:26:48.780 Back then, when he lifted the mandate in March, Biden said it was Neanderthal thinking.

00:26:53.840 Fauci, he's inviting another search.

00:26:56.000 Beto, this is a death warrant.

00:26:57.780 Gavin Newsom, absolutely reckless.

00:27:00.260 All of them totally wrong.

00:27:02.620 You'd think they'd learn.

00:27:03.840 They don't learn.

00:27:04.600 So, Texas is doing its thing and we're all jealous.

00:27:07.680 I'm jealous.

00:27:08.520 Here in New York, New Jersey, different story.

00:27:11.340 So, can we talk about what's happening here?

00:27:12.860 Because now the CDC, after issuing ridiculous prescriptions for the summer, I mean, they were saying kids had to wear masks every day in day camp.

00:27:22.300 By the way, the New York Times just ran a piece the other day saying experts, experts, they had all these experts, say it is, and I quote, somewhat safe for your kid to swim in the water without a COVID mask.

00:27:40.600 It's somewhat safe.

00:27:41.760 You can consider taking off that piece of fabric when they're in the ocean.

00:27:44.940 This is how insane people have gotten.

00:27:47.800 But it seems like the CDC has dragged along to every loosening of the spigot.

00:27:52.540 Well, Megan, you know, when the CDC first put forth their long-awaited recommendations of what people can do now that they're vaccinated.

00:27:59.720 I mean, mind you, they did this like three months too late.

00:28:02.240 And what did they say?

00:28:03.180 They're like, good news.

00:28:04.280 You can go out and walk your dog by yourself without a mask.

00:28:08.100 You can go and do outdoor dining without a mask.

00:28:11.160 You can have small outdoor gatherings without masks.

00:28:14.200 And it's like, I hate to break it to you, but we've been doing that like for the last year without a vaccine.

00:28:21.760 And it has not contributed to community spread.

00:28:24.100 So thank you.

00:28:25.240 But that was a talking head nonsense, not helpful.

00:28:28.240 And now here we are again.

00:28:29.940 They're still saying kids have to be wearing masks outside and distancing.

00:28:33.620 Not only is that ridiculously anti-science, but it can be harmful.

00:28:37.960 It's hot.

00:28:39.660 Yes, exactly.

00:28:40.700 That's what I keep saying.

00:28:41.520 I mean, I said to my daughter, we had a soccer game.

00:28:44.680 She's on the soccer team this past weekend.

00:28:46.780 It was 90 degrees here in New York.

00:28:48.520 And they had said it was a visiting field that the girls are going to have to wear their masks on the field. 1.00

00:28:53.520 And I said, Yardley, I just want you to know that we're going to be having a very awkward public moment if they enforce that.

00:28:59.840 There is no way I'm letting you play with a mask on in a 90 degree.

00:29:02.860 It's totally anti-scientific.

00:29:04.340 It's dangerous to you, according to our pediatrician.

00:29:07.340 And I said to Doug, my husband, I go, I'm going full Norma Ray on them.

00:29:10.980 I'm going to stand up there with a sign saying no masks.

00:29:14.380 Hearst's Red Union.

00:29:15.360 But you get the point.

00:29:16.760 Because if we don't start standing up to this BS, they'll keep these little ones in masks forever. 1.00

00:29:21.240 Up next, some in the mainstream media now seem to be finally getting around to admitting that there is, let's say, a better than average chance that this virus started in a Wuhan lab. 0.92

00:29:33.460 You know, people who have been paying attention have suspected this and believed it.

00:29:36.780 And some, I don't want to say no.

00:29:39.160 How do we know anything that happens in China?

00:29:41.660 But pretty close to no, have known it for a long time.

00:29:44.420 So how about that theory?

00:29:47.520 And what does our doctor think?

00:29:48.520 Because she's one of the people who said, I think it came from a Wuhan lab and was shamed for it early on.

00:29:54.560 That's after this break.

00:29:58.320 The Wall Street Journal now has a report saying three researchers at the Wuhan lab, that Wuhan lab that was devoted to studying coronaviruses and bats, became significantly sick in November of 2019.

00:30:14.740 They needed hospital care.

00:30:16.300 The Journal reports, it's based on a U.S. intelligence report that the and they say that the WHO is about to meet to discuss the next phase of the COVID origin investigation.

00:30:26.520 But they've already met.

00:30:27.860 And their their earlier reports a couple of months ago said, yeah, it doesn't look like it came out of Wuhan lab.

00:30:32.840 Then we found out that they're completely in bed, the WHO, with China. 0.92

00:30:36.520 The main guy who was behind that report, all of his research is funded by China.

00:30:42.900 So we can't listen to that.

00:30:45.260 And Pompeo, like you, came out and said he tweeted over a year ago.

00:30:49.740 I told Martha Raddatz that the Wuhan virus most likely came from a lab leak.

00:30:53.920 She stopped just short of offering me a tin hat.

00:30:56.340 But the CCP, the Chinese, said I was an enemy of mankind.

00:31:01.140 And now, well, now the left wing media is scrambling to get on the side of truth because their new narrative now is that, yes, there was some stuff out there, Nicole, about, you know, possibly the Wuhan lab.

00:31:14.120 But really, the reason they didn't go with that was Trump.

00:31:17.960 And I give you I'm going to give you the floor, but I give you Maggie Haberman on CNN with this line.

00:31:24.300 Listen, a lot of the discussion about the lab leak, I think, was clouded early on because there was the suggestion by some that it was somehow a Chinese weapon that that caused this.

00:31:35.940 That's not what we're talking about here.

00:31:37.300 We're talking about a lab accident.

00:31:39.100 But we've come a long way from people dismissing this as a conspiracy theory to a lot of people taking this seriously, Maggie.

00:31:45.420 We have, John.

00:31:48.200 And look, I do think it's important to remember that part of the issue when this was first being reported on and discussed back a few months after the pandemic had begun was that then President Trump and Mike Pompeo, the secretary of state, both suggested they had seen evidence that this was formed in a lab.

00:32:04.580 And they also suggested it was not released on purpose, but they refused to release the evidence showing what it was.

00:32:09.920 And so because of that, that made this instantly political.

00:32:13.640 Listen, it only got made political because the media made it political.

00:32:17.980 The bottom line is, yes, a biological weapon, weaponry across the globe is a thing.

00:32:23.920 And there are people developing biological weapons such as anthrax and coronaviruses that could potentially be harmful to global populations.

00:32:32.560 However, in the beginning of the pandemic, when people were discussing the close proximity of that Wuhan lab, whether or not they were saying that there was an intentional escape or leak of the virus or if it was an accidental leak, the bottom line was it was quickly, quickly just canceled and not discussed whatsoever.

00:32:52.820 And the truth is, yes, there were some people saying that this was intentional.

00:32:56.360 And I can tell you my personal opinion is I don't believe this was intentional.

00:32:59.840 I believe that I think that accidents in these labs happen.

00:33:03.120 This wouldn't be the first time it's happened and resulted in epidemic.

00:33:05.960 It's actually happened before.

00:33:07.200 I talk about it in the book.

00:33:08.280 And these lab leaks can occur.

00:33:12.000 They've happened in the United States, too.

00:33:13.800 The big thing that happened was the cover up by the CCP and then the echoing of information from the World Health Organization.

00:33:21.260 And then the fact that just because President Trump mentioned it, did everyone say that this is conspiracy and would not even hold the Chinese accountable to see what happened?

00:33:31.020 And unfortunately, now any any evidence is likely destroyed or gone.

00:33:36.120 Yeah, that's right. Absolutely right.

00:33:38.360 We're never we're never going to have the the smoking gun released because there we had on Josh Rogan of The Washington Post, who's done extensive reporting on this and just came out with a book on it.

00:33:47.680 And he and the the like the main people in that lab, a couple of people who may have had covid have been have disappeared.

00:33:54.640 They're like they're no longer around.

00:33:57.060 They're unclear what happened to them.

00:33:58.720 But the it's not like the United States where you're going to even the United States covers things up.

00:34:03.240 Just ask Glenn Greenwald. But we're not going to have some report in which they admitted or we catch them.

00:34:07.980 We're just going to have to use our our own intelligence.

00:34:09.900 All right. Let me ask you this. I want to talk for a minute about vaccines.

00:34:13.300 As I said, I just got my second Pfizer.

00:34:15.340 And by the way, I feel fine.

00:34:16.420 I had it last night at six o'clock.

00:34:18.160 I feel 100 percent fine.

00:34:19.060 So for what it's worth, my arm is only slightly sore and I didn't get any of those other symptoms.

00:34:24.220 I know other people have had different experiences, but I still hear people worried about vaccines.

00:34:29.360 I tweeted out. I refused to tweet a stupid picture of myself, but I tweeted out saying I'd gotten the vaccine. 0.98

00:34:34.560 And some some people wrote comments like goodbye, like good luck. 0.99

00:34:40.400 We'll miss you when you're gone.

00:34:42.420 There are people out there who think this is an existential decision.

00:34:46.820 So can you just address that with your thought of the safety of the vaccines?

00:34:51.460 So let's talk about that, because, you know, there's vaccine hesitancy and then there are anti-vaxxers.

00:34:57.140 And those are very different people.

00:34:59.200 The anti-vax movement existed well before covid.

00:35:02.140 And they truly believe that vaccines are created by the government and big pharma and are given to us that cause more harm than good.

00:35:11.320 And it's going to be very difficult to ever move them away from that that way of thinking, despite how much evidence and data that is shown to them.

00:35:20.040 They are of a mindset that really we're going to have a difficult time with.

00:35:23.260 Now, what the vaccine hesitant, you know, listen, I understand them.

00:35:28.440 We had we had this Operation Warp Speed at the beginning of the pandemic come forth.

00:35:33.960 We had a president who was a business leader and he said, all right, we're going to need a vaccine.

00:35:40.040 I'm going to put billions of dollars towards this.

00:35:42.660 Listen, I'm going to say to the researchers, do whatever you have to do.

00:35:45.580 I'm going to help you manufacture these vaccines while you're researching them.

00:35:49.960 So the moment you determine if it works, it's going to be ready to go.

00:35:53.900 We've never had that before.

00:35:55.640 Coronavirus vaccine research has existed for decades, but they've never had that funding before.

00:36:00.980 Well, Operation Warp Speed did that.

00:36:02.600 That was a huge gamble.

00:36:03.760 And you have to know that even though that was expedited, it was expedited in the sense that it was manufactured in parallel.

00:36:13.220 The process of discovery and determining if it was safe was not done with haste.

00:36:18.800 And while we have seen reports come out that there have been some complications, I can tell you that there's always going to be complications when it comes to vaccines.

00:36:26.160 And you have to think about how many people across the globe at this point have gotten vaccinated.

00:36:30.380 In the United States alone, we've delivered over 100 million doses.

00:36:36.180 And the fact that there have been so rare occurrences of any safety issues tells you that all of these are rare.

00:36:43.480 But there will be risk with anything you do, whether it's walking outside, getting in your car.

00:36:49.220 I can tell you you're a much higher likelihood of dying in a car crash than you are to have a severe side effect from the COVID vaccine at this point.

00:36:56.220 And so it's important that the messaging is there.

00:36:59.240 And unfortunately, again, the media grabs hold of things.

00:37:02.560 When we were hearing about the blood clots, when we're hearing about some of these other things, we have to put them in context and how few they are compared to how many people have received it.

00:37:12.700 Yes.

00:37:13.220 You know, I'll tell you, just not for nothing, but a woman, another mom at my kid's school was telling me she got the J&J vaccine and she did get a blood clot.

00:37:23.460 She was not counted in the number that led to the shutdown, but she she did get it prior to that.

00:37:28.780 And what happened?

00:37:29.840 I was like, well, she's a young, healthy woman.

00:37:31.600 I said, well, how did that manifest?

00:37:33.080 She said she was she got the vaccine and it was either later that day or the next morning she was grabbing her purse to go out.

00:37:40.540 And suddenly her finger was killing her.

00:37:42.200 She looked down at her finger and it was all swollen and big.

00:37:44.480 And she thought, OK, I don't know what this is, but I did just get the J&J vaccine.

00:37:47.860 So she called the doctor.

00:37:48.820 The doctor's like, get to the hospital right now.

00:37:50.980 She went to the hospital.

00:37:52.340 Apparently, they couldn't give her heparin because you're this is a secondhand.

00:37:56.080 But she said that you're not allowed to have heparin right after you've had the vaccine, at least that vaccine.

00:38:00.700 Well, let me clarify that.

00:38:03.280 So the reason that the reason these clots, these blood clots are so interesting in the people who's are post the J&J vaccine is so heparin is a medication that helps break up clots.

00:38:14.700 So if you're having a stroke or a heart attack or any other blood clot, you know, we give the heparin and it tries to break it up.

00:38:20.060 Well, what we're seeing in these patients is there's something called HIT, heparin induced thrombocytopenia, where you're actually having an autoimmune response to the heparin and you start breaking down your own platelets.

00:38:31.760 So the heparin is causing you to destroy your own platelets.

00:38:36.240 It's not necessarily helping the clot.

00:38:38.020 And now you're going to have a bleeding disorder because platelets stop you from bleeding.

00:38:42.120 And so that is the biggest concern, because if someone was to present with a blood clot, you give them heparin.

00:38:48.340 But the heparin was actually doing more harm than good in these patients.

00:38:50.820 So it was essential to get the word out to health care people to make sure if they're recently post vaccinated not to give heparin.

00:38:58.180 Well, her biggest takeaway, she's fine, 100 percent fine.

00:39:00.760 But her biggest takeaway was the number of doctors who were all over her in the hospital, because, you know, the medical community is very primed to, I think, for good reason, try to keep these vaccine complication numbers low and make sure that these are survivable, survivable events, which it completely was for her.

00:39:18.140 But, you know, it did.

00:39:19.880 I was about to get the J&J vaccine and I would have gotten it.

00:39:22.940 I still would would get it even right now if I hadn't had the other one.

00:39:26.260 My audience has heard me talk about how I actually tried to get the J&J vaccine, but CVS shut me down.

00:39:30.480 Long story.

00:39:31.100 Anyway.

00:39:31.300 But, you know, you do hear these stories and I understand the reticence to to go for it.

00:39:36.580 And now can I ask you about the there's a report in The New York Times that the CDC is investigating heart problems in just a few, just a few young vaccine recipients.

00:39:48.920 I always look at this because it's like, well, would they have had heart problems without the vaccine?

00:39:52.940 Like if you take a big sample, anybody's going to have a few problems.

00:39:56.460 Right.

00:39:56.720 But they say most appear to be mild, predominantly in adolescents and young adults, more often in males than females.

00:40:03.500 And your thoughts on it's called, I guess, myocarditis.

00:40:07.660 What do you tell parents who are worried about that?

00:40:10.280 Myocarditis is a fancy word for inflammation of the heart.

00:40:12.700 And, you know, I can say that there are actually reports of this out of Israel following the Pfizer vaccines.

00:40:19.120 Again, a handful of reports, mostly young adult males, a few adolescents.

00:40:25.000 And when you look at the grand scheme of things, how many people were vaccinated there, the occurrences were extremely rare.

00:40:31.480 But so I can tell you that just like with blood clots, SARS-CoV-2 can cause inflammation of the heart.

00:40:37.540 So when you are giving someone a vaccine that is supposed to emulate the immune response to SARS-CoV-2, it's not so surprising that you're going to have some you're going to have inflammation.

00:40:48.640 And it may mimic that of the of what happens when you're infected with the virus.

00:40:52.600 And since we know young adults and adolescents actually mount probably stronger immune responses to the vaccine than older people do, it's not surprising there's more inflammation.

00:41:02.560 But again, this is something that they're going to have to look at very, very thoroughly, because we know that SARS-CoV-2 poses a very low risk of severity when it comes to young people.

00:41:12.960 So what is going to pose more risk?

00:41:15.060 Are there going to be more cases of cardiac inflammation following vaccines, or are there going to be more young people who get the virus that are going to have cardiac inflammation?

00:41:24.540 And especially when we have such low viral transmission, they're going to have to they have to take that into account.

00:41:30.060 And unfortunately, they're not again, they're not acknowledging the emergency is over.

00:41:34.900 I think it's prudent and very important to have a safe and efficacious vaccine for all ages, whether it should be universally recommended.

00:41:43.860 I'm certainly not on board, especially when it comes to younger people.

00:41:47.540 What vaccine did you get? I assume you got vaccinated.

00:41:50.140 Well, so, Megan, you'll be the first to know I am not vaccinated.

00:41:54.660 And I'll tell you why. And I'll tell you why. This is this is the debut.

00:41:59.160 I've actually never spoke about this publicly.

00:42:01.660 Great. Well, I love to break news.

00:42:04.280 Big news. So, of course, I was offered it the moment they became available by my institution that I work at.

00:42:09.980 But I have an autoimmune disease that affects my heart.

00:42:13.000 And just like I desperately did not want to get COVID-19 because I was terrified it would affect my heart, my entire family rallied around me to try and keep me safe, despite the fact that my husband and I were going into the hospital nearly every day working.

00:42:26.720 When it came to being vaccinated, I had strong conversations with my rheumatologist and my cardiologist saying, hey, guys, what do we think about inducing inflammation right now?

00:42:38.780 And, you know, they said, I think we should give it a few weeks, although we have no evidence saying you shouldn't get it.

00:42:44.780 We don't have any evidence saying you should get it.

00:42:47.440 We know that COVID wouldn't do well in you, but we don't know what the vaccine would do.

00:42:52.300 And after about several weeks of data, they started coming around saying, you know what, we think the right thing to do is for you to get it because we can treat your autoimmune flares.

00:43:02.060 We still don't know how to treat COVID-19.

00:43:04.360 So I started to go and get it.

00:43:06.640 And then I fell down my staircase at home.

00:43:09.240 Oh, my 18 stairs, top to bottom, a couple of days before Christmas.

00:43:13.860 And I destroyed my shoulder.

00:43:16.720 I've had two surgeries to repair the damage.

00:43:19.300 I've been in a sling since Christmas and general anesthesia causes my disease to flare terribly.

00:43:27.200 So we all just said, let's put the pause button.

00:43:29.960 We have a lot of inflammation going on.

00:43:32.240 So we're going to wait.

00:43:34.120 I have a I have a weird question for you.

00:43:36.320 Yeah.

00:43:37.740 Do you think you manifested the fall down the stairs?

00:43:40.640 Do you think there was like some part of you that didn't want this, you know, given the risks that you didn't want it?

00:43:45.800 You know, I do think we sometimes mess with ourselves like that.

00:43:48.580 Hey, listen, that's a good question.

00:43:50.180 Good gosh, no, I would have taken 20 Pfizer vaccines by now rather than dealing with what I've had to deal with.

00:43:57.700 I mean, I have been more convinced over the last six months of data that, you know, specifically the mRNA vaccines have are doing an incredible job in our country, across the world.

00:44:08.220 I find them to be very safe.

00:44:09.760 I have many colleagues who have autoimmune diseases, who are pregnant, who have all gotten them.

00:44:15.420 But this is just my story.

00:44:17.120 But my point is, I think that everybody needs to assess their case individually.

00:44:21.800 And just because I'm a health worker doesn't mean knee jerk.

00:44:24.360 I should have it.

00:44:25.420 I have.

00:44:25.660 But it does underscore your like what a responsible professional does.

00:44:30.820 There you are, a doctor still going into the hospital when it was dangerous, unlike these teachers, right?

00:44:36.920 Who, as we said earlier, face very little risk.

00:44:40.400 They just won't do it.

00:44:41.900 But can I stop you and ask you about mRNA?

00:44:44.020 I confess I haven't spent that much time figuring this out.

00:44:47.320 I understand it sort of modifies your DNA in some way, but I'm not even sure about that.

00:44:51.640 But I do think that's one of the things that gets people freaked out, like, don't touch my DNA.

00:44:56.780 So can you explain that?

00:44:59.740 Sure.

00:45:00.020 So mRNA, you have to know you have there are certain different types of proteins and certain a lot of aspects go into just talking about DNA.

00:45:10.020 And, you know, without getting into the nitty gritty of it, when it comes to these vaccines,

00:45:14.860 mRNA is essentially a piece of genetic code that your body takes up.

00:45:19.220 It's not incorporating it into your DNA.

00:45:21.940 It's just bringing it into a cell.

00:45:24.140 Your cell is reading that mRNA and making the proteins to develop the immune response against.

00:45:31.240 That mRNA codes for the spike protein of the virus.

00:45:34.880 So your body sees the mRNA, codes it, makes the spike protein essentially without the virus.

00:45:42.280 So it's just hanging out there.

00:45:44.040 And your body sees it and attacks it.

00:45:46.360 So then in the future, if you were to be exposed to the virus, your body's like, hey, I know what these things are.

00:45:53.460 I'm here to attack it.

00:45:54.840 It's different than traditional vaccines in the sense that we would take other viruses.

00:45:59.880 We'd kind of make them weak.

00:46:01.820 And then we would inject them into people.

00:46:04.320 And so people would see it's the virus.

00:46:06.740 The virus was weakened.

00:46:07.660 So it can't necessarily harm you.

00:46:09.820 But so that's how you would recognize it in the future.

00:46:12.100 But one of the most incredible things with the mRNA vaccines are they're much easier to manufacture.

00:46:18.180 They are much easier to tweak so that they cover variants and make boosters.

00:46:23.280 And I truly believe that this is going to be the future when it comes to vaccines because of just how well they are doing, how safe they're proving to be, how few contraindications there are, and how just easy it is in terms of manufacturing and distribution.

00:46:38.120 What else do you think we're going to be able to get vaccinated against thanks to this technology?

00:46:42.400 Honestly, I think the sky's the limit.

00:46:44.620 We are already looking to vaccinate against cancers, recurrent cancers, trying to get it so that we can activate a person's own immune system to fight off those cancer cells.

00:46:56.680 You know, I think, obviously, pathogens, viruses, bacteria, that's where the focus is.

00:47:01.920 But you will certainly be hearing about it when it comes to cancer treatment and prevention as well.

00:47:07.260 I picture it as like creating a little army base camp inside your body.

00:47:10.780 Like, here's the little guy who's going to fight COVID.

00:47:12.820 Here's the guy who's going to fight breast cancer.

00:47:14.680 Here's the guy who's going to fight pancreatic cancer thanks to these mRNA vaccines, which are just, they're miraculous.

00:47:22.820 It's pretty crazy.

00:47:24.060 All right, here's my other question to you.

00:47:25.560 It occurred to me, having researched the Pfizer vaccine a bit, it said that after one dose, I was 82%, you know, effective at, you know, fighting off serious illness.

00:47:37.600 And then I looked at the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, which said, you're basically 85%.

00:47:42.260 And I thought, why the hell am I getting the second shot?

00:47:45.160 Why do I need the second shot of the Pfizer thing to go from 82% to 85%?

00:47:49.200 Your thoughts?

00:47:49.880 So this is a good question.

00:47:52.080 And this is something, you know, my friend Marty McCary and I have talked about at length since December.

00:47:58.140 He and I had a little bit more of the mindset of what the UK did.

00:48:01.820 We said, when supply was an issue, we need to give as many people the first dose as soon as possible to get some level of immunity.

00:48:09.580 Because even if it was 80%, that's much better than 0%.

00:48:13.700 And, you know, that is not the strategy the U.S. adopted.

00:48:17.880 And they were really, they just kind of cowered to their own restrictions in the sense that, well, the clinical trial was only looking at two doses.

00:48:28.100 It's like, okay, well, we are still in a time of crisis.

00:48:30.880 And when you're in a time of crisis, you can't wait for those randomized controlled trials and stick to the black and white literature.

00:48:37.880 That's something that Dr. Fauci, unfortunately, had a really hard time with in the beginning.

00:48:41.900 He is a scientific purist and did not want to go against the grain when it came to old guard academics.

00:48:48.900 And when it came to the vaccines, yes, that first dose gives you a good response.

00:48:53.960 But I can tell you, new data out of India, this is interesting.

00:48:58.140 That variant of concern in India that's now in the U.K., study from England showed that variant B.1.6172, after two Pfizer doses, you have about an 88% effectiveness at preventing symptomatic disease.

00:49:14.420 But it's only 33% after three weeks after that first dose.

00:49:20.520 So, you know, I don't, honestly, I could pick apart that study if I wanted to.

00:49:25.720 So, however, there is ample data that shows two doses are better than one, except if you've had COVID, it shows that just one dose really just amps up that existing natural immunity.

00:49:37.760 And so maybe you don't need the second dose.

00:49:39.640 But overall, recommendations, CDC, everywhere else, get your two doses on schedule.

00:49:45.080 That really does give you the best chance for reducing your risk of severe COVID and transmitting it to others.

00:49:50.620 Yes, I feel good.

00:49:52.540 I got it.

00:49:52.860 I'm happy to have been able to get it.

00:49:54.960 I still think the vaccines are miraculous and just a testament to American industry.

00:49:59.200 But I also think the science says we can take off these masks.

00:50:03.240 And inside, I want to be able to take off my mask.

00:50:05.780 I want it to be optional.

00:50:06.700 And I really want more than anything for my children to never have to wear masks again.

00:50:11.500 I want to be in charge of whether they put that piece of fabric over their nose and mouth and not Governor Cuomo or anybody else for that matter.

00:50:21.660 And so I'll give you the last word on that before I let you go.

00:50:24.900 Just kids and indoor masking.

00:50:27.240 We've covered kids and outdoor masking.

00:50:28.760 But what do you think the rule needs to be on indoors?

00:50:31.080 Listen, the CDC has recently stopped looking into mild COVID cases in fully vaccinated people, and rightfully so, because we don't care.

00:50:40.360 We don't care.

00:50:41.520 The goal has never been to get to zero cases.

00:50:44.560 It's been to save the most amount of lives.

00:50:46.920 We know that if children are to get the virus, it's going to be mild.

00:50:50.460 So we should not be counting cases in them as well.

00:50:53.320 I have said many times over the last month or two, we need to start taking these masks off of children.

00:50:58.180 They've been on them for far too long, and the data actually supports it.

00:51:02.160 Face masks will be doing more harm than good to these young children, especially now the emergency is over.

00:51:08.020 It's time to take off the masks.

00:51:10.140 Amen, sister.

00:51:12.260 Well, listen, I hope you feel better.

00:51:14.340 I hope you heal up and continue going forward in a positive direction with your own medical issues.

00:51:20.000 And thank you so much for your honest expertise.

00:51:23.040 We're really, really grateful for it.

00:51:24.960 Absolutely.

00:51:25.500 Thank you so much for having me.

00:51:26.680 Coming up after this break, we're going to bring on Dr. Lucy McBride, who first got my attention when she wrote in The Atlantic, and I quote,

00:51:34.100 I tell my patients not to mask their kids outside.

00:51:37.360 And as I mentioned earlier, she goes on MSNBC and says these things, and she will say it to anybody.

00:51:41.800 She will say it to you, and I will ask her about masks inside, and we have a little news coming up on that.

00:51:46.740 Okay, so stay tuned for her.

00:51:48.380 But before we get to Lucy, I want to bring you a feature we have called Sound Up, where we bring you some sound, a soundbite that we feel you need to hear.

00:51:57.320 Today, we're talking about the scandal around Cuomo.

00:52:01.500 No, not Governor Andrew Cuomo this time.

00:52:03.640 His brother, Fredo Cuomo of CNN.

00:52:06.620 Some people call him Chris.

00:52:07.820 After laughing and joking with his brother last year on his 9 p.m. show, it was so fun.

00:52:13.060 It was so fun between them.

00:52:14.240 Wasn't it adorable except for all the people who were dying while he was asked no substantive questions?

00:52:18.700 They did this in March of last year.

00:52:20.340 In March of last year, right?

00:52:23.200 When people were dying by the thousands in the nursing homes.

00:52:26.400 This is the thing Janice Dean, my pal, has been jumping up and down about for months, right?

00:52:29.820 And she was dismissed as knowing nothing except for facts about the weather by Andrew Cuomo's administration.

00:52:35.360 So these two went on CNN and yucked it up, and Chris Cuomo got the giant Q-tip, which now he can shove right up his...

00:52:42.760 Anyway, they thought it would be hilarious during the peak of COVID to abandon all objectivity,

00:52:47.540 give Andrew Cuomo a complete pass on any tough facts, and try to boost Chris Cuomo's ratings.

00:52:54.680 That's what it was about.

00:52:55.840 They didn't care about journalism at all, CNN or Chris Cuomo.

00:53:00.820 And it was disgusting, and Janice was disgusted about it at the time, and Anna Navarro, who's so hateful, tweeted out,

00:53:06.220 Look, if they want to come out and express a little levity during a tough pandemic, then good for them.

00:53:09.780 No, there are real journalistic issues in doing that, which you would know if you had spent any time as a journalist.

00:53:16.480 But instead, you're just a hateful pundit who's got nothing but vitriol for anybody who's on the right where you used to be,

00:53:22.740 but now you're a Jen Rubin who hates everybody who isn't far left of center. 1.00

00:53:26.640 That's Anna Navarro.

00:53:27.820 So CNN decided to let one brother interview the other, because ratings.

00:53:31.440 And that became deeply problematic, not only when the nursing home scandal just reached fever pitch,

00:53:37.600 but when at least seven women, now the numbers are much higher, 1.00

00:53:41.320 came forward to publicly accused Andrew Cuomo of sexual harassment and, in some cases, assault.

00:53:46.840 All right, so what does Chris Cuomo do?

00:53:48.200 Does he put the brother on?

00:53:49.680 No, no.

00:53:50.780 At this point, he suddenly remembered he really shouldn't be reporting on his brother,

00:53:55.860 never mind putting him on TV.

00:53:58.020 Listen to what Chris Cuomo said then.

00:53:59.340 Before we start tonight, let me say something that I'm sure is very obvious to you who watch my show.

00:54:06.080 And thank you for that.

00:54:07.540 You're straight with me.

00:54:08.760 I'll be straight with you.

00:54:10.340 Obviously, I'm aware of what's going on with my brother.

00:54:13.640 And obviously, I cannot cover it because he is my brother.

00:54:19.040 Now, of course, CNN has to cover it.

00:54:22.880 They have covered it extensively, and they will continue to do so.

00:54:28.180 I have always cared very deeply about these issues, and profoundly so.

00:54:36.620 Really?

00:54:37.900 Very deeply and profoundly?

00:54:40.240 You've cared about the Me Too movement and women accusing men of sexual harassment?

00:54:45.760 Really?

00:54:47.080 Well, that's actually not at all how you behaved in this case.

00:54:49.920 By the way, his realization that I, quote, can't cover my brother because he's my brother

00:54:54.120 came too late, way too late in this process.

00:54:56.900 All of us could see that at the time you put him on repeatedly because ratings.

00:55:00.860 So don't try to claim the moral high ground now and recognizing it would be inappropriate

00:55:04.500 to cover him.

00:55:05.300 You already did, and you blew it at a really important moment.

00:55:09.660 I'm sorry, I'm very fired up about this, in part because of Janice and just how she's been

00:55:13.380 attacked for trying to shine light on what Andrew Cuomo did, and how CNNers like Anna

00:55:17.760 came after her.

00:55:19.060 Anna Navarro tweeted that in response to Janice for calling out CNN on it, and she's my pal,

00:55:24.460 and I've seen her get dragged for trying to shine a light on this impropriety. 0.99

00:55:28.600 And now it's all coming out.

00:55:31.720 Now you can see for yourself why it was so wrong.

00:55:34.000 He can't cover his brother.

00:55:35.520 And it isn't true he's always cared very deeply about sexual harassment, or he wouldn't,

00:55:39.580 as we now know, thanks to reporting in the Washington Post, have been not just sitting

00:55:44.420 this one out, but actively advising his brother on how to find his way out of the scandals.

00:55:52.140 He was sitting with Andrew Cuomo and his political aides on calls, and according to the Washington

00:55:58.640 Post, and I quote,

00:56:00.240 the cable news anchor encouraged his brother to take a defiant position and not to resign

00:56:05.120 from the governor's office, the people said.

00:56:07.420 At one point, he used the phrase cancel culture as a reason to hold firm in the face of the

00:56:12.340 allegations, two people present on one call said.

00:56:14.840 So this Chris Cuomo, who cares very deeply and profoundly about women raising issues of

00:56:20.880 sexual harassment, told his brother to hold the line, cancel culture, diminishing all of them,

00:56:27.360 right?

00:56:27.580 I mean, that's how do you think those women feel about Chris Cuomo and his profound commitment

00:56:31.160 to harassment and stopping it, right?

00:56:33.200 How do you think you'd feel if you were a woman on Chris Cuomo's team at CNN?

00:56:37.380 And why on earth does CNN, which has already said he will not be punished for this, not

00:56:43.960 have any problem with him doing that, with him sending that message, right?

00:56:49.480 So when the scandal broke after the Washington Post wrote this story, Fredo addressed this

00:56:54.520 on his show, and here's what he said.

00:56:56.140 When my brother's situation became turbulent, being looped into calls with other friends of

00:57:00.720 his and advisors that did include some of his staff, I understand why that was a problem

00:57:06.340 for CNN.

00:57:07.220 It will not happen again.

00:57:09.400 It was a mistake because I put my colleagues here, who I believe are the best in the business,

00:57:15.540 in a bad spot.

00:57:17.140 I never intended for that.

00:57:19.400 I would never intend for that, and I am sorry for that.

00:57:23.940 It's also important for you to understand, not only do I not cover this here, I've never

00:57:30.420 tried to influence this network's coverage of my brother.

00:57:34.200 In fact, I've been walled off from it.

00:57:38.500 This is a unique and difficult situation, and that's okay.

00:57:43.440 I know where the line is.

00:57:45.460 I can respect it and still be there for my family, which I must.

00:57:50.240 I have to do that.

00:57:51.820 There's so much wrong with that statement, I don't even know where to begin.

00:57:53.920 You've never tried to influence the network's coverage of your brother, except for when

00:57:57.080 you had him on and gave him a total pass, repeatedly during the height of the coronavirus,

00:58:01.840 leading to his lionization, in part, as this fearless leader of New York when we had

00:58:07.260 record deaths in nursing homes as a result of his order sending COVID-positive patients

00:58:11.360 back in there.

00:58:12.580 That's all been documented.

00:58:14.180 And then lied about the numbers who died in the nursing homes because he didn't count

00:58:19.040 those who had been moved while sick with corona from the nursing homes into the hospitals.

00:58:23.580 All the other states were counting.

00:58:25.540 They were counting the hospital patients.

00:58:26.880 They understood you can't subtract those just because they were dying in the nursing

00:58:30.440 home, then he moved from the hospital.

00:58:31.620 Doesn't mean that's not a nursing home death.

00:58:33.520 Not Andrew Cuomo.

00:58:34.800 And this came out over his objection.

00:58:36.580 He tried to mislead.

00:58:37.840 That's what the New York State Attorney General found.

00:58:39.480 A Democrat, okay?

00:58:40.500 So that's the guy to whom Chris Cuomo gave a pass.

00:58:44.420 But it's not about you not trying to influence the network into not covering his sexual harassment

00:58:49.680 scandal.

00:58:50.420 It's about you getting your hands dirty on the actual scandal and advising him.

00:58:55.980 There are two parties to this, right?

00:58:57.180 It's the actual principals who commit the deeds or misdeeds that wind up in the news.

00:59:01.200 And then there's the news coverage.

00:59:02.440 So you were on the wrong side of the news coverage when the actual nursing home scandal broke and

00:59:07.060 the coronavirus was, the pandemic was at its height.

00:59:09.440 And then you were on the wrong side when it came to the actual principles in the debate.

00:59:15.620 When he got accused of sexual harassment, you were involved in taking a side.

00:59:20.400 You're not allowed to do that.

00:59:22.180 You can't take a side.

00:59:23.820 You can't go to the...

00:59:25.840 It would be the same as if some female anchor went and sat down with all the seven sexual 1.00

00:59:30.620 harassment victims and said, here's how you get them.

00:59:33.160 Here's how you're going to bring them down.

00:59:35.100 Right?

00:59:35.300 I've interviewed a lot of sexual harassment victims in my time.

00:59:37.740 Trust me.

00:59:38.340 I understand that's inappropriate.

00:59:39.960 Kindness?

00:59:40.480 Sure.

00:59:41.240 Support for the trauma they allege?

00:59:43.380 Sure.

00:59:43.640 I would do that.

00:59:44.580 But you don't do what he did.

00:59:46.740 You take a side.

00:59:47.620 You actively push.

00:59:48.740 Say it's cancel culture.

00:59:49.920 Hold the line.

00:59:50.780 That is so far over the line he can't even see the line anymore.

00:59:53.580 And I get it.

00:59:54.300 It's his brother.

00:59:55.240 You know what?

00:59:55.720 Then you got to take a leave of absence.

00:59:57.240 Even Brian Stelter, the hall monitor, was saying that.

00:59:59.500 Take a leave of absence.

01:00:00.620 You can't actively get involved in the news story and maintain your post on that desk and

01:00:06.660 just shrug your shoulders and say, it's OK, because I'm not actually going to cover this

01:00:09.960 particular scandal.

01:00:10.800 You've already covered him.

01:00:12.220 You're in it.

01:00:13.520 Your network covers him.

01:00:14.560 You can't.

01:00:15.660 Again, back to the message he's sending his employees.

01:00:18.200 You can't take this position, given the role you have at CNN.

01:00:22.820 All right.

01:00:23.240 That's sound up for you.

01:00:24.480 I had a lot to say.

01:00:25.220 It's been weighing on me.

01:00:26.460 I think this is a show about COVID, though, so we'll go back to that.

01:00:31.920 I should point out that none of my guests signs on to my particular feelings, yes or

01:00:35.920 no.

01:00:36.160 I haven't run any of that by them.

01:00:37.280 Those are my thoughts on the matter, my personal opinion, and my opinion as a journalist.

01:00:41.740 Now let's get back to somebody who understands medicine, and that's Dr. Lucy McBride in one 0.95

01:00:46.620 minute.

01:00:53.220 Megan, how are you?

01:00:55.120 I'm great.

01:00:55.760 Thank you for being here.

01:00:57.400 Oh, my gosh.

01:00:57.800 Thanks for inviting me.

01:00:58.800 I'm thrilled to be here.

01:00:59.780 I have such respect for your work and your mission, and I'm just thrilled.

01:01:04.400 So thanks.

01:01:05.200 Oh, thank you so much.

01:01:06.520 I loved your article in The Atlantic, right?

01:01:09.980 I'm not sure where exactly I read it online, but I read it almost in full on my podcast not

01:01:15.500 long when it first came out.

01:01:17.100 Oh, great.

01:01:17.600 I'm like, yes, sense.

01:01:19.200 This is what we need.

01:01:20.120 Good sense.

01:01:21.540 And I respect that you will say it anywhere.

01:01:24.140 You've said it on MSNBC.

01:01:25.340 You'll go anywhere and just speak truth about the science and where we are.

01:01:29.980 So before we get to the children, because I am definitely focused on that, can we just

01:01:34.460 talk about the grownups?

01:01:36.320 Because I know your principle as a doctor is that good health is about much more than the

01:01:40.980 absence of disease or illness.

01:01:43.440 And don't you feel like we've totally lost sight of that?

01:01:47.960 What we're doing to ourselves, what we continue to, in some cases, willingly do to ourselves

01:01:53.960 right now just doesn't make any headlines and it's dangerous.

01:01:57.140 So to me, having seen patients for 20 years as a practicing primary care physician, I've

01:02:02.600 realized that health is more than the absence of disease.

01:02:05.060 As you said, health is not just about preventing illness.

01:02:08.040 It's also about promoting health and well-being.

01:02:11.180 People are the integrated sum of different components.

01:02:14.440 Their mental and physical health, their lived experiences, their genetics, their environmental

01:02:21.340 exposures.

01:02:22.860 Of course, they have blood pressure and cholesterol and numbers on the scale that matter a lot.

01:02:27.900 But what really matters when we're thinking about health is trying to meet people's broad

01:02:32.640 human needs, preventing them from disease and preventing them from despair in tandem.

01:02:37.920 When I'm counseling a patient on whether to go back to work, for example, in a global pandemic,

01:02:43.140 I'm thinking to myself how to protect them from the virus and protect them from the distress

01:02:48.920 that comes with not being able to go to work, not being able to, for example, get a paycheck

01:02:54.380 they need to feed their family or not see their loved ones.

01:03:00.280 Those have emotional costs.

01:03:02.320 Because when the benefits of seeing people in person when you're vaccinated outweigh the

01:03:09.580 risks of COVID-19, then that's the decision tree we use and then the path we go down.

01:03:16.000 Yeah.

01:03:16.380 Well, I mean, I feel it now because I confess I had almost no fear of COVID.

01:03:21.600 I just, you know, I just didn't think that I was as much at risk.

01:03:25.360 I didn't think my children were as much at risk.

01:03:27.300 I knew my loved ones who are in the high risk category were taking great precautions.

01:03:32.440 I cared about the country and the world, but just on a family level, I wasn't in a panic

01:03:37.240 about it.

01:03:38.280 I was pretty relaxed about it.

01:03:40.360 I mean, my friends would tell you I was very relaxed about it.

01:03:43.560 And I just think that's how I generally approach all these things.

01:03:45.740 I just, I'm not a panicker.

01:03:47.620 I said I tend to lean into calm.

01:03:49.760 So it takes a lot to really get me worked up.

01:03:51.240 But that is why I, being on the opposite end of, you know, risk tolerance, appreciated

01:03:56.300 one of the lines from your article.

01:03:58.080 And I quote, different people are entitled to different fears and different levels of

01:04:02.960 risk tolerance for their families and communities.

01:04:05.920 Now, I think most of the people here in New York would read that and think you're talking

01:04:09.880 about them.

01:04:10.800 They are high fear and low risk tolerance.

01:04:13.980 And they want the standards to stay very exacting on the masks and so on for a very long time.

01:04:19.840 But I, as somebody who is at the opposite end, appreciated it because I feel like my

01:04:25.260 side is now aligned with the science and we want the restrictions to considerably lighten

01:04:32.180 up, if not go away.

01:04:34.120 And instead, it feels like in my town and elsewhere, I go to New Jersey during the summer and they're

01:04:39.640 worse.

01:04:40.100 They're worse than New York.

01:04:41.680 Instead, we have resorted to we all must live by the standards of the most frightened person

01:04:48.200 in our town.

01:04:48.920 And to that, I object.

01:04:51.520 Right.

01:04:52.420 So let's break that down here, Megan.

01:04:55.280 I see individuals every day.

01:04:57.580 Individual human beings have unique medical conditions, unique vulnerabilities emotionally,

01:05:03.440 physically, socially.

01:05:05.120 For example, I had a patient this morning who is a liver transplant patient.

01:05:08.400 She's been vaccinated, but her immune response to the vaccine has not been robust.

01:05:12.020 So she not only is anxious about the pandemic because she happens to be an anxious person,

01:05:16.880 she's also afraid of getting COVID because she doesn't have a robust immune response. 0.56

01:05:22.540 So there are people who are vulnerable to fear.

01:05:26.420 There are people who are vulnerable physically and other people who are vulnerable to both.

01:05:30.460 At the same time, I have patients who, you know, like maybe even my oldest son, who's not that risk

01:05:39.220 averse and who is a five alarm extrovert and who parenting through a pandemic has been challenging

01:05:45.980 and enlightening, actually, because trying to tack down a 19-year-old social life is a little challenging.

01:05:52.800 And his needs are different than someone who is vulnerable, elderly, and immune suppressed.

01:05:58.340 The point is that my job, hopefully I'll always have a job because, you know, there's nuance when you're counseling

01:06:05.060 individual patients on risk and risk tolerance.

01:06:08.400 Specifically, when I'm counseling patients, I try to make sure, one patient at a time, that fear is not in the driver's seat.

01:06:14.220 So fear is not making the decisions on whether or not to go visit your mother in the nursing home after you've been vaccinated.

01:06:20.440 For example, if someone is afraid to go back to work, even though they've been vaccinated,

01:06:24.640 my job is to help frame that risk by delivering facts and guidance that that are rooted in science.

01:06:32.440 But fear is a normal human reaction to a trauma like the pandemic.

01:06:37.580 So I don't blame anyone for being afraid.

01:06:39.660 That's actually how we survive.

01:06:41.360 It's just we have to calibrate our fear to the actual facts.

01:06:45.520 Well, right, because it's one thing if you're in the jungle and a big tiger is coming for you,

01:06:50.160 a significant amount of fear is totally appropriate.

01:06:53.120 You're probably going to die.

01:06:54.240 But if a little house cat is coming your way, you got to adjust your response.

01:06:59.000 And if you're feeling the same fear as you as you did with the tiger, you got to work on you.

01:07:03.620 That's not like, OK, everyone else in this jungle has to react as though the tiger is coming at me.

01:07:08.440 No, you got to work on you.

01:07:10.800 You said you said it.

01:07:12.360 So, you know, because we have all been exposed to, you know, unbridled in some cases fear,

01:07:18.800 but at some level, an anxiety response to this threat called COVID-19, it's normal to feel anxious and have heart palpitations, sweaty palms,

01:07:28.100 tight muscles, headaches, insomnia, to have a gravitational pull to alcohol at the end of the day to take a load off.

01:07:34.420 Those are those are normal.

01:07:36.140 The problem is they affect us mentally and physically.

01:07:39.260 And then when you're anxious, you can actually have this kind of cognitive distortion where you overreact to threats that aren't actually that threatening.

01:07:48.980 We saw that can I ask you a follow up on that, though, because I I also feel that those of us who cannot take one more day of these unnecessary restrictions are having some of those reactions.

01:08:02.780 Right.

01:08:03.280 Like we're feeling constricted.

01:08:06.940 You know, I feel anxiety when they say to my kid, she's got to put a mask on and run around outside in 90 degree weather with other nine and 10 year olds.

01:08:16.180 No, it makes me angry.

01:08:17.960 But like my anger or anxiety about stuff like that doesn't seem to count.

01:08:22.440 Your only fear or bad feelings only seem to count on the COVID scale if it's of COVID, of getting COVID.

01:08:29.660 Right.

01:08:29.860 Like a lot of us are worried about stuff or business owners worried about their business and all that stuff.

01:08:34.560 It's just been not factored in as relevant.

01:08:38.320 So just as is the case in my patient interactions one at a time.

01:08:43.880 There are harms of doing and there are harms of not doing.

01:08:47.380 There are harms of action.

01:08:49.020 There are harms of inaction.

01:08:50.560 If I have a cancer patient and we're deciding on a treatment plan and the patient can't tolerate the chemotherapy because it makes them so sick and they understand the consequences of not treating aggressively this cancer.

01:09:01.600 You know, that's a choice they make.

01:09:02.700 There are harms of doing and harms of not doing.

01:09:04.200 Similarly, and by the way, my job in that situation is to help people decide based on their broad human goals and needs and unique medical conditions to decide the best plan for them and to arm the patient with facts and science.

01:09:19.840 Similarly, in COVID-19, there are harms of COVID-19 and it's unique to different people based on their underlying conditions and vulnerabilities.

01:09:29.700 There are harms of the pandemic restrictions themselves.

01:09:33.260 As the public health landscape has changed, as we see a steadily dropping case rate, death rate, hospitalization rate, as the country is being blanketed by these miraculous vaccines, it no longer makes sense to have the kind of restrictions we do in general.

01:09:50.260 That said, people are welcome to mask freely when they want to, if they are vulnerable.

01:09:56.340 But let's just say this, Megan, it does not make sense to mask anyone outside.

01:10:03.000 If you want to mask outside, by all means, there should be no shaming or blaming for masking.

01:10:07.060 It's not political.

01:10:07.780 It's up to you.

01:10:08.900 But what makes me frustrated is not so much seeing my daughter go out to camp in a mask because it's required.

01:10:15.260 It makes me frustrated that it's not science-based.

01:10:17.700 There's no data to support a mandate masking anyone outside, vaccinated or unvaccinated, old or young.

01:10:26.180 If you want to mask outside, that is, of course, your decision.

01:10:29.800 Yes.

01:10:30.160 No, I want to get to the masking of the children.

01:10:32.520 But before I get to that, I agree with you.

01:10:34.200 I do not agree that people who choose to wear masks should be shamed in any way.

01:10:38.880 You know, I don't think, I don't comment on Megan Fox wearing basically a Kleenex tissue to the music awards the other night because that's up to her, right?

01:10:51.400 Kim Kardashian prance around in dental floss on the internet as much as she likes. 1.00

01:10:56.080 It's not my life.

01:10:57.180 She's, you know, go for it, sister.

01:10:58.540 It can be comfortable, but go for it.

01:10:59.980 Right.

01:11:00.680 You want to wear a mask forever.

01:11:02.840 It's fine by me.

01:11:04.020 I have a woman, a friend here in New York who she's like, I'm never taking it off.

01:11:09.560 Like, go for it.

01:11:10.460 No problem.

01:11:11.940 We're actually, you know, we're planning a Fourth of July party at my place in New Jersey.

01:11:14.720 And I was joking that I was going to put a sign on the outside of our fence reading, no masks allowed.

01:11:18.700 But it is a joke because just across the street from me, we have a dear friend who's suffering from cancer right now.

01:11:24.780 And in no way would I ever guilt or shame this man for wanting to protect himself.

01:11:29.100 I want him to be masked if he wants to be masked.

01:11:30.860 So anyway, that's where I stand on it.

01:11:32.820 But the problem is we do seem to be catering to like the most scared denominator.

01:11:39.160 And now, and now I really resent it.

01:11:42.460 Now I'm like, forget me.

01:11:44.500 All right.

01:11:44.720 I'll, I'm generally a rule follower, but I'm done with my mask.

01:11:47.620 I've had my second shot.

01:11:48.960 I I'm good.

01:11:50.100 Um, but my kids, and this is why your article so spoke to me because you, you, you'll go on Fox, but you'll also go on MSNBC.

01:11:56.760 And I do think it's more sort of the left wing that needs to hear your message that the masks on the children are unnecessary, at least outdoors.

01:12:06.780 And, and yet that should be a no brainer.

01:12:10.200 And it isn't.

01:12:11.120 And you said, I tell my patients kids with or without vaccinations do not need to wear masks outside, despite CDC guidelines.

01:12:23.200 So are the, is the C, I haven't actually seen the latest CDC guidelines on outdoor masks on children.

01:12:29.420 Are they, are they still saying they should?

01:12:30.960 They are, and I have a little inside person on, they, the CDC is still recommending outside masking for, for kiddos.

01:12:41.400 But I have heard through the grapevine that is going to change as it should.

01:12:46.540 The problem with CDC issuing guidance that is, as you said, catering to the sort of least calm denominator and the fear-based narrative is that it runs the risk of, of, of, of causing people to distrust our public health institutions.

01:13:02.480 Now, this is not to say I don't respect Rochelle, Rochelle, Rochelle, this is not to say I don't respect Rochelle Walensky.

01:13:08.680 She actually went to Harvard Medical School in Johns Hopkins, where I did all of my training.

01:13:12.760 And I think she's a very, very, very smart, educated, wonderful person.

01:13:17.140 She's speaking to every American, and that is hard to do, as we know.

01:13:20.600 The, the pandemic has been so tragically politicized, masking somehow has a political meaning when it's really not political whatsoever.

01:13:29.260 But the point is this, they unfortunately lose credibility when they do cater to that fear-based narrative.

01:13:37.440 They need to be a little more flexible and nimble and issue more nuanced guidance for children in particular.

01:13:42.340 Children are the people who right now, as you know, are not vaccinated, not eligible to be vaccinated, the 11s and under,

01:13:48.880 and also who have suffered uniquely in the pandemic from isolation, loneliness, depression, anxiety.

01:13:55.900 And in many cases, you know, their safety has been sacrificed, and they're not being fed because they're not going to school.

01:14:03.520 So the harms of pandemic restrictions right now on our children as a whole greatly outweigh the benefits, the protection against COVID-19,

01:14:13.360 which kids are generally spared from the horrors of COVID-19.

01:14:17.500 Have kids died? Have kids gotten very sick? Yes.

01:14:19.940 It's just very, very uncommon.

01:14:21.300 And moreover, as we blanket the country with vaccines and adults, and as the case rates drop in adults,

01:14:30.000 the case rates are also dropping in kids.

01:14:31.960 In other words, kids are indirectly protected by the adults around them being vaccinated.

01:14:36.200 So there's no reason right now, zero reason to mask kids outside unless they want to.

01:14:42.500 And there's really no indication right now that in the fall, for example, there should be any masking or plexiglass or any of that theater right now in schools.

01:14:54.140 That's what I want to get to inside, because I'll tell you, our school right now is saying they gave us sort of the preliminary.

01:15:00.220 I think they're sort of laying the foundation to get us prepared for the ultimate guidance to come out is saying.

01:15:07.400 We're not we don't think right now we're going to mandate vaccinations for children who are 12 and up, you know, because they can get it.

01:15:15.040 But we do think we're going to require indoor masking across the board when they come back and for anybody who hasn't been vaccinated in particular.

01:15:24.500 And that means my seven year old will have to wear a mask again all day long.

01:15:32.760 And so my son's still going to be my oldest is still going to be 11 when he goes back to school.

01:15:36.560 My daughter's still going to be 10 when she goes back to school all day long. 0.93

01:15:41.120 And for what? And the reason I mentioned the seven year old is how far could you take this?

01:15:47.100 I don't know that they're going to have a an out and out cure for covid once you've gotten covid between now and the time he turns 12.

01:15:54.760 Right. And what about parents who just don't want to vaccinate their child or they have something with their child where they, you know, we just had a doctor on saying in her case, in her own case,

01:16:02.240 she was saying it didn't make sense to vaccinate her because she's got an immunocompromised situation that doesn't allow it.

01:16:07.640 Anyway, what if you've got a kid like that? They have to mask for five years until they're like or interminably.

01:16:13.320 Why don't we take it out to senior year of high school?

01:16:15.700 So this is exactly what we need is is is metrics issued by the CDC.

01:16:20.400 We need to have clean metrics like the UK had when we have, for example, three cases per 100000 population in a certain community.

01:16:29.500 Then we should be able to lift mask mandates for anyone vaccinated or unvaccinated, no matter what age they are, with the understanding that anybody who's high risk can mask.

01:16:40.000 Anybody who hasn't been vaccinated can mask anybody who lives with a high risk individual, of course, can mask.

01:16:45.900 But I have every confidence that the restrictions are going to be lifted by the fall.

01:16:53.060 So if you were in charge of the guidance for schools, in charge of the CDC, in charge of, you know, all these schools trying to make a decision on masks for the fall, what would you advise?

01:17:02.540 I love that question. So thinking ahead to the next academic year, the science supports a return to regular life.

01:17:08.340 Teachers are vaccinated by and large. Case rates are falling right in front of our eyes right now.

01:17:13.900 And by the time the school year rolls around, cases will be even lower, which protects kids indirectly.

01:17:19.780 Twelve and up will be vaccinated, those kiddos.

01:17:23.520 And also by by then we will hopefully have more confidence in the very facts that are this, that plexiglass barriers don't make any sense from a disease mitigation standpoint.

01:17:35.460 The virus is largely airborne. We don't need to have plexiglass.

01:17:38.460 The spread from athletic equipment and surfaces is so minuscule and small that we just don't need to take those precautions to protect our kids from COVID-19.

01:17:48.940 What we need to do and we need to hear from the CDC is this, that there are clean metrics as to when we can really lift these restrictions, follow the UK's lead and, you know,

01:18:00.020 wait till hospitalization rates are two or three in a hundred thousand a day while we are mass vaccinating adults.

01:18:08.660 In the meantime, at camp, kids should not be masked outside.

01:18:13.900 I mean, it just doesn't make sense. It's not rooted in science.

01:18:17.320 There are dangers there. Kids can pass out from wearing a mask outside.

01:18:21.500 Again, there's nothing political about what I'm saying. It's just rooted in science.

01:18:24.780 Is it possible to transmit the virus outside from unvaccinated to unvaccinated person?

01:18:30.540 Yes. It's just extremely unlikely.

01:18:33.980 And and so, OK, so you're if you were in charge of the world, you would recommend if the vaccination rates are what they are now, if the infection rates are I mean, are we far off of that?

01:18:46.540 It depends on where you are in the country, but we're getting there and in a couple of different parts of the country and anything can happen.

01:18:53.620 Like, you know, I don't have a crystal ball. We could have, you know, variants from India come over and and mess up our metrics. 1.00

01:19:00.520 Right. Which is arguably, you know, the second best reason to vaccinate people in India.

01:19:05.900 The first best reason is because we care about our global allies.

01:19:08.960 So I don't have a crystal ball. Could case rates increase and could hospitalizations increase?

01:19:14.060 They could. But if you look at how wealthy we are as a country and how motivated this administration is to get shots in arms and how motivated people are around the country to get shots.

01:19:23.940 And you look at the curves and you look at UK and Israel as the seniors and we're the sophomores.

01:19:30.600 I mean, we're going to be in such better shape in the fall than we are now.

01:19:34.900 And right now we are in excellent shape.

01:19:36.520 OK, good. So I like that. So if if Dr. Lucy McBride is setting policy for the United States, it sounds like she's going to say the kids don't have to be masked inside schools come fall, come fall.

01:19:49.180 If the hospitalization rates are consistently two to three out of one hundred thousand a day, which we should be at.

01:19:59.160 And look, I don't claim to know every single thing about public health, but I do know that, you know, the public is is angry.

01:20:05.880 The public is afraid and the public is desperate and thirsty for more nuanced guidance.

01:20:12.840 People and parents in particular right now are really, really agitated and distressed about their kids, not just because they want their kids to play with their friends, but because kids are actively depressed.

01:20:23.820 The suicide rates are going up. Kids are not being fed.

01:20:27.340 They are not safe. So it's a real crisis.

01:20:31.720 It's a mental health crisis. We all know about post-traumatic stress, right?

01:20:35.340 When you've experienced trauma, whether it's the loss of a loved one, the loss of a job or the loss of your in-person high school experience or just the mere loss of the contours of normal life.

01:20:46.280 We all have experienced loss in the pandemic and that causes a post-traumatic stress reaction for anyone.

01:20:52.440 If you're if you're human, there's also something called post-traumatic growth where you can take the things you've been through and make meaning and find resilience and be stronger.

01:21:02.100 We need to understand that Americans as a group, we have been through a collective trauma.

01:21:07.820 We need to know that COVID is going away, not forever, not completely, but that the trauma and the reverberation on our thoughts, feelings and behaviors is going to be lasting.

01:21:20.080 And when we hold our kids hostage to restrictions that are not rooted in science and evidence, we have big costs to their emotional health, well-being and safety.

01:21:33.220 Exactly right. The cost of these children and having these masks on their faces and not seeing one another.

01:21:38.000 And, you know, you don't see smiles anymore. You don't see smile.

01:21:41.240 I notice it just when I'm walking on the street and whatever you see.

01:21:44.020 I I always like whenever I see an older woman in particular, we catch eyes.

01:21:47.540 I smile at them. I just love the faces of older women. I don't know what it is.

01:21:51.020 Yeah, I don't plan on letting my own face get like that, but I but I like seeing it another.

01:21:56.720 I kid. And I miss it like I'm smiling and I think they're smiling.

01:22:02.640 I'm trying to smile, you know, smile with your eyes. 1.00

01:22:04.720 But it's like this is bullshit. 0.96

01:22:06.580 I would just want to show my face and give him a big toothy grin and have that moment of connection. 0.98

01:22:11.600 And that's just that's just me, little ones who, you know, there's so much they learn by being with one another and figuring out facial expressions where they that's sort of where they show their emotions.

01:22:21.300 Right. They haven't managed to use the words perfectly to express them.

01:22:24.680 I just that's right. I'm not much of an activist, but I feel like getting to be one on this.

01:22:29.560 Yeah. I mean, you know, back in March 2020, we had a very different situation.

01:22:33.620 We didn't know what kind of animal this this virus was, you know, we had to really make it clear that everyone is vulnerable.

01:22:42.600 Everyone, you know, it needed to be all hands on deck to protect ourselves, our communities from this lethal virus.

01:22:50.540 We were watching TV. We were watching, you know, we're watching people in ICUs and refrigerator trucks outside of emergency rooms.

01:22:57.500 And people were terrified. And we should have been right because we have lost, I think it's almost 600,000 American lives.

01:23:06.020 This is nothing short of a trauma. At the same time, that was then.

01:23:09.760 And this is now, as you said earlier, we were acting like it was a tiger in the wild because we needed to.

01:23:17.180 It's not a tiger anymore. It is for some people who are vulnerable and we need to respect their vulnerabilities.

01:23:23.200 But for most people and for kids in particular, the harms of the pandemic restrictions outweigh the benefits and the emotional health toll on kids is huge.

01:23:38.260 That's right. And I know I noticed that you had mentioned at one point, even for adults, that two in five Americans report an average weight gain of 29 pounds during the pandemic.

01:23:50.580 I mean, that is that's a lot. And of course, we did exactly the wrong thing, which is like no gyms and in places like California, no parks, no exercising.

01:24:00.200 I was like, sit at home, eat, drink and don't go outside to exercise while we increase one of our comorbidities, obesity.

01:24:08.400 Right. And that, too, causes depression. You got an extra 29 pounds on you right now.

01:24:13.020 You absolutely probably have more depression than normal.

01:24:15.980 So it's like all these things need to start shedding. We need to shed the pounds. We need to shed the restrictions.

01:24:21.560 We need to get back to real life. And people who need to protect themselves should absolutely do so.

01:24:26.920 But I personally say the time for all of us making these enormous sacrifices and freedom to protect this number of, you know, afraid or compromised people.

01:24:38.060 The balance has shifted in favor of normalcy. We all lived it when it was not in the favor of normalcy.

01:24:44.920 It has shifted as far as I'm concerned. Anyways, I'll obey the rules because I'm generally a rule follower, but it's time to fight, at least for our kids.

01:24:53.140 Absolutely. And I'm a rule follower, too. I'm a fact follower and a science follower.

01:24:57.380 I also think there are some things that are hard to measure. It's very hard to measure and quantify distress and anxiety.

01:25:03.940 You know, there's no kind of like blood test or MRI for emotional trauma.

01:25:08.880 Yet those phenomena need to be put in the decision making rubric in our individual decisions for health and in the public health landscape.

01:25:18.960 Just because it's hard to measure someone's depression doesn't mean it shouldn't weigh into the decisions on how to, you know, treat this person or how to treat this population.

01:25:29.840 And the stress itself is making people sick.

01:25:32.960 I mean, I witnessed the physical health fallout of emotional health and distress every day.

01:25:38.060 People are stress eating. They're binge eating.

01:25:41.120 They're isolating themselves.

01:25:42.720 They're adding, you know, pounds, not because they don't know about healthy eating, but because they are emotionally eating.

01:25:50.720 So my job isn't to shame people and say, hey, you've gained 29 pounds.

01:25:55.180 It's really to say, look, let's talk about the stress.

01:25:57.660 Let's talk about how to better manage the emotional reaction that's normal in a global crisis.

01:26:03.200 And let's have you build a coping kit that hopefully we built before, because that's part of my job in general, is not only to help people with like managing the blood pressure, but managing the mechanisms by which their blood pressure is high.

01:26:17.140 You know, whether it's that.

01:26:18.140 And that's only that's only considering the patients who come in to see you.

01:26:21.680 I mean, a lot of people who gain 29 pounds, they just postpone their their appointment appointment with their doctor because they don't want to talk about it.

01:26:29.220 Yeah, I wrote a piece on abandoning shame in the doctor's office.

01:26:31.940 I talked about it with a patient this morning who said I really didn't want to come in and I wanted to lose the weight before I saw you.

01:26:36.820 And as I say to her every year, you know, you need to bring your whole self to the doctor.

01:26:42.000 I am not here to judge.

01:26:43.580 I'm here to provide a safe space under which we discuss what it is that's driving the weight gain.

01:26:49.960 And for her, it's stress eating and the stress of losing her mother during a pandemic and managing the job and parenting kids on Zoom school has caused her to drink more.

01:27:01.940 Eat more.

01:27:02.540 Her blood pressure is high.

01:27:03.620 Her diabetes markers are higher.

01:27:05.000 So, you know, my job is to say, tiff, tiff, tiff, you know, time to get your act together.

01:27:09.680 It's really to help her figure out how to best manage stress by resuming regular exercise in a sustainable, healthy way.

01:27:16.240 By trying to prioritize healthy eating so that she isn't drawn to the stuff that, you know, saps her energy.

01:27:22.780 By just assessing her relationship with food, assessing her relationship with alcohol, and ultimately asking for help through asking for help with me.

01:27:31.900 We're going to also help her get into some therapy.

01:27:33.940 I think we need to make therapy universally available to every American, like we should make health care available to every American.

01:27:41.800 This is a mental health crisis.

01:27:43.980 This is a pandemic about a virus.

01:27:46.160 It's also a parallel pandemic of mental health and crisis.

01:27:49.100 So if we don't address the emotional and resulting physical health fallout from COVID-19, we are really missing an opportunity to help people get healthier from the ground up.

01:28:00.740 It's funny because I come from an Italian mom, and she 100% raised all three of us to be emotional eaters.

01:28:06.840 You know, my brother, he used to joke, too, that no amount of food was enough.

01:28:11.240 She'd say, you know, you hungry?

01:28:12.260 Can I get you anything?

01:28:13.040 Pete would say, no, mom, good.

01:28:14.520 She goes, okay, I'll just get you a sandwich then, you know, right?

01:28:19.640 And I find myself stopping all the time if my kid falls down or if they're depressed or if they're sad or something hurt, stopping myself from giving them a cookie or offering them a lollipop or, you know, because I do think that's sort of teaching emotional eating.

01:28:34.360 But, you know, it's sort of society, too.

01:28:36.580 And we sort of built it in like food is attached with celebrate celebrations and it's attached with nurturing wounds.

01:28:43.320 And you really just you have to be a little bit more strict.

01:28:47.220 For me, I know we're definitely going to do a show on this.

01:28:49.680 Intermittent fasting has made all the differences.

01:28:51.540 If you have that.

01:28:52.380 Megan, let's talk about it, because here's the thing.

01:28:54.520 I know a lot about nutrition and I can counsel my patients all day long to eat kale and quinoa and, you know, minimize refined starches.

01:29:01.860 That is really the tip of the iceberg when we're talking about nutrition and health.

01:29:07.200 The missing piece of the puzzle here is the relationship to food.

01:29:09.880 Every single person on the planet has a relationship to food that is beyond just hunger.

01:29:15.540 Right. And the thing about food is that you have to deal with it three times a day, sometimes five times a day, depending on what's healthy for you.

01:29:24.520 And so if you have a relationship with food that is complicated or disorganized or disordered, then you're walking around with a tiger on a leash every day.

01:29:32.460 So those phenomena only got worse for people with disorganized eating during the pandemic, because, again, you're at home, you are ordering food, you're anxious, you can't go to the gym.

01:29:42.880 So I'm seeing an enormous influx of people who were kind of flirting with disorganized eating, who are full blown, disordered.

01:29:52.620 And so, again, my job is not to shame people and say, hey, you got to go on low carb and get your act together.

01:29:58.380 It's to say, look, let's think about the stress that is driving the relationship of food that, unfortunately, you have to manage.

01:30:04.860 You can give up alcohol, which is very hard for some people and not necessary for everyone, of course.

01:30:10.520 Thank God. I love my glass of wine, my glass of bourbon every now and then.

01:30:14.880 But you can give those things up, but you cannot give up food.

01:30:18.260 Food is a complicated phenomenon.

01:30:20.200 And ultimately, in primary care medicine, you know, food and the relationship to it and what you eat matters so much to your health.

01:30:28.740 Amen. Doc, thank you so much. I hope you come back.

01:30:32.100 I would love to come back. I'll come back tomorrow if you ask me.

01:30:34.860 Coming up on Friday, we're going to get into these anti-Semitic attacks we've been seeing, not just in the United States, but overseas as well.

01:30:45.840 In London, it's getting nuts.

01:30:48.060 What we've seen in the streets is anti-Semitism and it's been right in your face and not just in the streets. 0.80

01:30:54.060 I mean, it is, forgive the term, Jew hatred.

01:30:57.600 And if you spend two minutes on Twitter looking at the hate being directed at the Jewish people and the Israelis, which, as you know, are not necessarily always exactly the same group,

01:31:10.480 it's stunning and it's disgusting and how it's allowed to stand in the wake of Twitter and Facebook and these other companies trying to take the moral high ground when it comes to the deplorables.

01:31:20.160 Right. Where's their moral high ground now?

01:31:22.260 So we're going to have one of my favorite Caliphile guests, Ambassador Ron Dermer.

01:31:27.100 He's the former now ambassador to Israel, and he is a super smart guy and understands this region and our country really well.

01:31:36.180 Former ambassador of Israel to the United States, I should say.

01:31:39.200 And so we're going to get into what's happening in this country and where this is going.

01:31:42.420 Don't miss that.

01:31:42.960 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. 0.94

01:31:46.020 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

01:31:50.180 The Megyn Kelly Show is a Devil May Care media production in collaboration with Red Seat Ventures.

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The Megyn Kelly Show - May 26, 2021

COVID Reality on Kids and Masks, the Wuhan Lab, and Vaccines, with Dr. Nicole Saphier and Dr. Lucy McBride ｜ Ep. 107

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