The Megyn Kelly Show - COVID Truth on Lockdowns, Vaccines and Schools, with the Great Barrington Declaration Doctors ｜ Ep. 34

00:00:00.000 When I found out my friend got a great deal

00:00:02.160 on a wool coat from Winners,

00:00:03.760 I started wondering,

00:00:05.440 is every fabulous item I see from Winners?

00:00:08.560 Like that woman over there with the designer jeans. 1.00

00:00:11.260 Are those from Winners?

00:00:12.780 Ooh, or those beautiful gold earrings.

00:00:15.260 Did she pay full price?

00:00:16.600 Or that leather tote?

00:00:17.600 Or that cashmere sweater?

00:00:18.500 Or those knee-high boots?

00:00:20.300 That dress?

00:00:21.080 That jacket?

00:00:21.740 Those shoes?

00:00:22.780 Is anyone paying full price for anything?

00:00:25.800 Stop wondering.

00:00:27.000 Start winning.

00:00:27.940 Winners.

00:00:28.520 Find fabulous for less.

00:00:30.600 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:32.540 Your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:41.400 Hey everyone, welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:43.520 I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:00:44.480 Today we're talking about COVID and the vaccine

00:00:48.220 and whether we should be in a lockdown

00:00:50.560 between now and the time you get it.

00:00:52.960 We've got some really smart and interesting doctors

00:00:55.460 who have been very anti-lockdown

00:00:58.680 and they have been attacked pretty mercilessly for it,

00:01:02.420 but they're very well qualified to speak about this.

00:01:05.240 Their names are Dr. J. Bhattacharya.

00:01:07.880 He's a professor of medicine at Stanford

00:01:10.000 and Dr. Martin Kulldorff,

00:01:12.460 who's a professor of medicine at Harvard.

00:01:14.280 And they are part with another doctor who's from Oxford.

00:01:18.420 These are the doctors behind the Great Barrington Declaration.

00:01:21.620 They took a hard look at how we were handling COVID

00:01:24.280 and came up with an alternative.

00:01:26.500 What they suggest essentially is that we protect the most vulnerable

00:01:29.060 from the elderly to those who are immunocompromised for some reason,

00:01:32.880 but that the rest of us go about living our lives.

00:01:35.380 We can be cautious.

00:01:36.440 We can wear masks, social distancing,

00:01:38.660 if we feel comfortable doing that.

00:01:40.360 They don't necessarily think that should be mandatory,

00:01:42.120 but they've taken a lot of heat for it.

00:01:44.380 And now with the vaccine in sight,

00:01:46.920 I'm going to ask them whether they still think this is the best method

00:01:49.900 and what is the danger that we are going to go into a lockdown.

00:01:53.160 We're also going to have Dr. David Dowdy.

00:01:54.880 He's an infectious disease epidemiologist at Johns Hopkins,

00:01:57.940 who's kind of on the other side,

00:02:00.160 but we're going to get both perspectives.

00:02:01.660 And I think you're going to find the discussion really interesting.

00:02:04.740 You know, there's been so much hypocrisy out there by these leaders,

00:02:07.800 like the whatever,

00:02:09.280 the Chicago mayor,

00:02:10.320 Lori Lightfoot out there partying with the liberals after Biden

00:02:13.220 and Chuck Schumer doing the same and Nancy Pelosi at the salon 0.83

00:02:16.040 and Governor Newsom at French Laundry,

00:02:19.380 along with the San Francisco mayor and the San Jose mayor.

00:02:22.160 Then there was the Austin mayor telling people to stay at home

00:02:24.820 from his vacation spot in Cabo.

00:02:26.780 So really,

00:02:27.700 you kind of want to punch a lot of these people

00:02:29.420 as they tell you to stay home.

00:02:30.960 But instead,

00:02:32.300 we are just going to attack the logic

00:02:34.900 that they are trying to push on us for these endless lockdowns.

00:02:39.340 And so I think you're going to love it.

00:02:41.180 Stay tuned for that.

00:02:41.980 But first,

00:02:43.040 let me talk to you about something flowery,

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00:02:49.940 As you know,

00:02:50.640 with travel being what it is

00:02:51.700 and with the COVID ramping up the cases and so on,

00:02:54.540 a lot of people can't go see their families for Christmas.

00:02:56.620 I'm not going to be able to see my mom for Christmas,

00:02:58.220 which I just hate because she's almost 80 and I love her.

00:03:01.640 And I hate that.

00:03:02.760 It's hitting her hard and me hard.

00:03:04.780 But I am going to send an amazing gift

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00:03:10.000 I am going to send her flowers from Bloomsy Box.

00:03:13.480 She's going to light up when she gets these things.

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00:03:51.100 if you get one at the bodega down the street,

00:03:52.580 it's like doesn't smell

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00:04:39.580 And now,

00:04:40.420 Dr. Jay Bhattacharya

00:04:41.620 and Dr. Martin Koldorf.

00:04:45.640 Thank you so much for being here

00:04:47.400 and for helping us walk through this.

00:04:49.440 It's a perfect time to have you

00:04:51.120 since according to what I read,

00:04:54.400 things are worse than ever

00:04:55.580 with this virus right now.

00:04:57.820 The headlines tell me

00:04:59.400 that the pandemic is exploding.

00:05:01.540 The CDC director here

00:05:02.980 says the next few months,

00:05:04.340 this is a quote,

00:05:04.940 will be among the most difficult

00:05:06.260 in public health history

00:05:08.900 for the United States.

00:05:10.460 The statistics are that

00:05:13.480 virtually all hospitals in America,

00:05:15.740 close to 90%,

00:05:16.600 are in hot or red zones.

00:05:18.600 Same is true for nursing homes.

00:05:20.740 U.S. hospitalizations

00:05:21.880 are at an all-time high,

00:05:24.160 100,000 plus.

00:05:25.600 People are hospitalized,

00:05:26.980 19,000 in ICUs,

00:05:28.280 7,000 on ventilators.

00:05:29.560 Those numbers sound bad

00:05:31.620 and I'm always questioning

00:05:34.620 whether these are

00:05:35.840 people trying to scare us

00:05:38.300 or whether we genuinely

00:05:40.080 should be scared.

00:05:42.460 Let's start with that one.

00:05:43.900 I'll start with you, Martin.

00:05:44.920 What do you think?

00:05:46.400 Well, it depends on your age.

00:05:49.460 One reason we have

00:05:50.620 a lot of mortality

00:05:51.140 is we're not doing a good job

00:05:52.360 protecting the old 0.89

00:05:53.660 or high-risk people.

00:05:55.880 There has been federal efforts

00:05:57.980 to send testing

00:06:00.120 to nursing homes,

00:06:00.920 for example,

00:06:01.580 but they're not used

00:06:02.560 universally throughout the country.

00:06:04.160 So we have to do

00:06:05.780 a much better job

00:06:06.680 protecting the nursing homes

00:06:07.980 than we have been doing.

00:06:09.960 And we do that

00:06:10.800 by frequent testing

00:06:13.240 of our staff

00:06:13.960 who are not already immune

00:06:14.940 because they had COVID.

00:06:15.940 Then we don't have to test them,

00:06:16.940 but they all should be

00:06:17.980 frequently tested.

00:06:19.220 Visitors should be tested

00:06:20.280 because it's important

00:06:21.580 for the residents

00:06:22.340 to have visitors

00:06:23.020 from family and friends.

00:06:24.940 But yes,

00:06:25.500 then we should test them

00:06:26.360 and if you're positive,

00:06:27.140 you wait a few weeks

00:06:27.840 before you visit them.

00:06:29.060 We should have less staff rotation

00:06:30.520 in the nursing homes

00:06:31.460 so that each resident

00:06:33.240 will interact

00:06:34.780 with as few staff as possible.

00:06:36.620 So these are easy

00:06:37.400 public health measures

00:06:38.540 to implement,

00:06:40.520 but they are not

00:06:42.460 being done universally

00:06:43.720 in the whole country.

00:06:45.260 And that's sad

00:06:46.260 and that's one reason

00:06:47.000 why we're seeing

00:06:47.700 many high mortality numbers.

00:06:49.900 And we should, of course,

00:06:50.520 also protect older people

00:06:51.900 outside of the nursing homes.

00:06:53.900 And the headlines,

00:06:54.800 they never talk about

00:06:56.080 really the age

00:06:57.060 of the people

00:06:57.700 who have died

00:06:58.460 and it's not that

00:06:59.160 we don't care

00:06:59.680 about the elderly,

00:07:00.460 but it's important

00:07:01.560 to understand

00:07:02.280 what the mortality rate

00:07:04.100 is for people

00:07:04.980 under the age of 70, right?

00:07:06.980 So what is the mortality rate

00:07:08.600 for people

00:07:08.960 under the age of 70?

00:07:10.740 One thing that's important

00:07:11.660 to realize

00:07:12.140 is that anybody

00:07:13.040 can get infected.

00:07:14.600 So the infection

00:07:15.920 can hit anybody.

00:07:17.520 But in terms of mortality

00:07:18.820 and serious disease,

00:07:19.820 if you look at mortality,

00:07:20.900 there's more than

00:07:21.340 a thousandfold difference

00:07:22.660 in risk

00:07:23.160 between the old

00:07:23.900 and the young.

00:07:24.500 So for all people,

00:07:25.460 this is more dangerous

00:07:26.360 than an annual influenza.

00:07:28.080 But for children,

00:07:28.880 this is much less dangerous

00:07:30.080 than the annual influenza.

00:07:31.420 And I have an 18-year-old son

00:07:32.880 and he has minuscule risk

00:07:34.600 and I'm much more worried

00:07:35.440 when he's driving the car

00:07:36.760 than I am about him

00:07:38.140 getting COVID-19.

00:07:40.880 Can I jump in for that?

00:07:42.360 Go ahead, Jay.

00:07:43.060 There's been a whole series

00:07:44.340 of studies

00:07:45.380 to look at

00:07:46.140 the answer to that question.

00:07:48.180 From around the world,

00:07:49.540 the estimate

00:07:50.620 of survival rate

00:07:51.780 for people under 70

00:07:52.860 is something like

00:07:54.680 99.95%.

00:07:56.920 That is,

00:07:57.900 99.95%

00:07:59.280 of people under 70

00:08:00.480 who get infected

00:08:01.280 survive.

00:08:02.260 It's much higher,

00:08:03.360 as Martin says,

00:08:04.520 for older.

00:08:05.760 So the survival rate

00:08:06.880 for older people

00:08:07.620 over 70

00:08:08.560 is something like 95%.

00:08:10.280 And of course,

00:08:11.320 it goes up by the age

00:08:12.180 of work for,

00:08:12.700 and as Martin says,

00:08:14.300 for children,

00:08:15.220 it's much less dangerous.

00:08:17.280 There are more children

00:08:18.120 that have died this year

00:08:19.080 of the flu

00:08:19.620 in the United States

00:08:20.640 than have died

00:08:21.140 of COVID-19.

00:08:21.880 Now you guys

00:08:23.340 authored this

00:08:24.720 Great Barrington

00:08:25.900 position paper

00:08:27.000 arguing that

00:08:27.980 we needed to go

00:08:28.720 for herd immunity

00:08:30.080 here in the United States

00:08:31.480 prior to the vaccines

00:08:32.740 being announced

00:08:33.460 and took all sorts

00:08:34.640 of flack for it

00:08:35.560 for the same reason

00:08:36.360 Scott Atlas gets flack

00:08:37.800 for advising

00:08:38.920 something similar

00:08:39.660 at the White House.

00:08:42.080 Is that,

00:08:42.660 is the paper

00:08:43.460 and the position

00:08:44.440 on herd immunity

00:08:45.360 still relevant

00:08:46.200 now that we have

00:08:47.520 vaccines coming out

00:08:49.100 soon?

00:08:50.020 What do you think, Jay?

00:08:50.560 So can I just

00:08:52.280 change the question

00:08:53.740 just slightly

00:08:54.480 and the position?

00:08:55.580 We never actually,

00:08:56.480 we've never argued

00:08:57.300 for herd immunity

00:08:58.200 as a strategy.

00:08:59.060 Actually,

00:08:59.280 that doesn't make any sense

00:09:00.420 in the following way.

00:09:02.520 The only

00:09:03.440 endpoint of this epidemic,

00:09:05.140 no matter what we do,

00:09:06.900 is herd immunity.

00:09:08.080 That's not,

00:09:08.620 whether we adopt

00:09:09.860 the current policy

00:09:10.820 or we change the policy

00:09:12.480 to one we suggest

00:09:13.700 in the Great Barrington

00:09:14.280 question,

00:09:14.720 we just want to focus

00:09:15.400 protection.

00:09:15.960 that's the end

00:09:18.160 point of the epidemic.

00:09:19.340 So in a sense,

00:09:20.500 our opponents

00:09:21.380 have used this idea

00:09:22.540 of herd immunity

00:09:23.140 to scare people

00:09:24.120 when in fact

00:09:24.780 the current policy

00:09:25.580 we're following

00:09:26.100 is essentially

00:09:26.720 aiming at herd immunity.

00:09:28.640 The only alternative

00:09:29.460 to herd immunity

00:09:29.880 is zero COVID

00:09:30.640 and that's impossible.

00:09:31.880 So the real question

00:09:33.560 is,

00:09:34.080 what do we do

00:09:34.720 in the meantime?

00:09:35.720 What do we do

00:09:36.440 between now

00:09:37.440 and the end

00:09:38.040 of the epidemic,

00:09:38.820 which is herd immunity?

00:09:40.340 The current policy

00:09:41.500 says let's have

00:09:42.360 these massive lockdowns

00:09:43.920 which have harmed people.

00:09:45.580 I mean,

00:09:45.780 we can talk extensively

00:09:46.940 about this

00:09:47.420 and I hope we will.

00:09:49.480 Both their health,

00:09:50.660 economically,

00:09:51.340 of course,

00:09:51.540 but also their health

00:09:52.180 and not just people

00:09:53.260 in the United States

00:09:53.900 but worldwide.

00:09:54.900 I mean,

00:09:55.120 the UN estimates

00:09:56.040 that as a result

00:09:56.780 of the lockdowns

00:09:57.820 there will be

00:09:59.040 almost 130 million

00:10:00.560 additional people

00:10:02.320 who will be

00:10:02.900 at risk of starvation

00:10:03.900 this year.

00:10:04.640 80 million children

00:10:05.560 die of poverty worldwide

00:10:07.680 and the United States

00:10:08.720 skipped medical

00:10:09.780 treatments

00:10:10.320 that will result

00:10:11.620 in higher death rates

00:10:12.940 from cancer

00:10:13.460 for women and men.

00:10:14.800 So I think

00:10:15.140 the question is

00:10:16.560 what do we do

00:10:17.480 now,

00:10:18.860 not what the end

00:10:19.740 point of the epidemic is.

00:10:21.040 Herd immunity

00:10:21.360 is the end point

00:10:21.800 of the epidemic.

00:10:22.500 The current policy

00:10:23.100 of the lockdown

00:10:23.540 is hurting

00:10:24.220 many, many, many people

00:10:25.800 in many ways

00:10:26.520 creating more death

00:10:27.900 and suffering

00:10:29.160 for people

00:10:30.360 around the world

00:10:31.380 from non-COVID

00:10:33.360 sources

00:10:34.260 and ironically

00:10:35.200 it's also damaging COVID.

00:10:37.320 I think we would have

00:10:38.120 less death.

00:10:38.740 the policy

00:10:39.780 we put forward

00:10:40.800 in that declaration

00:10:42.160 that Great Barrington

00:10:43.220 declaration

00:10:43.660 was a focused protection.

00:10:45.560 The idea is

00:10:46.240 and you heard it

00:10:47.240 in Martin

00:10:47.560 when he spoke

00:10:48.760 the idea is

00:10:49.640 to devote

00:10:50.640 overwhelming resources

00:10:51.900 to protect the elderly.

00:10:53.760 That's the declaration

00:10:54.880 and other people

00:10:56.080 with the chronic disease.

00:10:57.220 So I'll give you

00:10:57.880 an example

00:10:58.260 of where we failed

00:10:58.980 in this policy

00:10:59.620 where we failed

00:11:00.740 with our current policy.

00:11:02.140 We have workers

00:11:03.160 let's say

00:11:03.740 you're a 64-year-old

00:11:05.040 diabetic

00:11:05.440 and you happen

00:11:06.720 to work

00:11:07.140 at a grocery store

00:11:08.800 while you're deemed

00:11:09.560 essential

00:11:10.020 and there's absolutely

00:11:11.320 no protection to you.

00:11:12.260 We ask you to go

00:11:12.880 and be exposed

00:11:14.220 to the virus

00:11:14.760 because you're

00:11:15.220 an essential worker

00:11:16.820 and we say

00:11:17.840 look

00:11:18.100 you're going to be

00:11:19.740 forced to take that risk.

00:11:20.780 Well that's partly

00:11:21.360 why we have

00:11:21.940 this high mortality.

00:11:23.000 We haven't given thought

00:11:24.000 to who's actually vulnerable

00:11:25.100 and work to protect them.

00:11:26.600 Instead we've said

00:11:27.480 a class of workers

00:11:29.860 is non-essential

00:11:31.060 essentially meaning

00:11:32.180 that they're rich enough

00:11:33.040 so that they can be served

00:11:34.540 by people

00:11:35.100 who we ask

00:11:36.360 to go take the risk

00:11:37.120 of the virus.

00:11:38.380 The current policy

00:11:39.460 is one of

00:11:40.520 enormous inequality

00:11:42.120 and I think

00:11:42.720 that's mainly

00:11:44.140 what's driven

00:11:44.780 our thinking

00:11:45.740 in the Great Bank

00:11:46.340 Declaration.

00:11:47.240 Let's change the policy

00:11:48.240 to follow the science

00:11:49.300 and the science says

00:11:50.580 we know who's vulnerable

00:11:51.600 older people

00:11:52.340 people with certain

00:11:52.920 chronic conditions

00:11:53.580 let's think creatively

00:11:54.840 about how to protect them

00:11:55.880 and for the rest

00:11:56.840 of the population

00:11:57.780 the lockdowns

00:11:58.640 are way more harmful

00:11:59.660 both to health

00:12:00.660 and psychological health

00:12:02.420 and other aspects

00:12:04.460 of life.

00:12:05.300 Is that still relevant

00:12:06.020 now that we have the

00:12:06.860 because you know

00:12:07.400 it feels like

00:12:08.100 we can see the end

00:12:08.940 that the vaccines

00:12:09.860 they say by May

00:12:10.820 we should all

00:12:11.440 not all

00:12:12.180 but virtually all

00:12:13.100 have it

00:12:13.860 have the vaccine

00:12:14.660 they're going to start

00:12:15.140 with the most vulnerable

00:12:15.900 the elderly

00:12:16.440 well the first responders

00:12:18.160 get it first

00:12:18.760 and so

00:12:20.060 given that

00:12:21.500 should we be thinking

00:12:22.860 about this

00:12:23.320 should we still be

00:12:24.540 trying to avoid

00:12:25.320 lockdowns?

00:12:26.540 Absolutely

00:12:26.880 because as I said

00:12:27.620 the lockdowns

00:12:28.260 have been harmful

00:12:28.860 to the health

00:12:29.440 of non-vulnerable people

00:12:31.400 on net

00:12:31.840 it's the lockdowns

00:12:33.060 are harming

00:12:34.160 let me give you

00:12:34.760 one other number

00:12:35.840 in June this year

00:12:37.260 one in four

00:12:38.180 young adults

00:12:39.080 18 to 24

00:12:39.800 seriously considered suicide

00:12:41.360 one in four

00:12:42.400 you can see

00:12:43.440 everyone who knows

00:12:44.460 anybody

00:12:45.000 in the United States

00:12:46.460 actually anywhere

00:12:46.960 in the world

00:12:47.360 understands the psychological

00:12:48.980 damage caused

00:12:51.300 by these lockdowns

00:12:52.240 the isolation

00:12:52.980 the stress

00:12:53.760 it's not surprising

00:12:55.180 that we see numbers

00:12:56.060 like this

00:12:56.640 you asked about the vaccine

00:12:58.140 the vaccine is actually

00:12:59.020 a perfect mechanism

00:13:00.380 for focused protection

00:13:01.860 the CDC just said

00:13:02.980 that they're going to

00:13:03.720 prioritize elderly people

00:13:05.280 for the vaccine

00:13:05.700 that is exactly

00:13:06.420 the right strategy

00:13:07.200 use the vaccine

00:13:08.380 to protect people

00:13:09.580 who are

00:13:10.200 we know to be

00:13:10.940 at high risk

00:13:11.580 and for the rest

00:13:12.520 of the population

00:13:13.240 the lockdowns

00:13:14.680 are more harmful

00:13:15.520 than the disease

00:13:16.620 so in other words

00:13:18.860 you feel like

00:13:19.580 now more than ever

00:13:20.860 your strategy

00:13:21.920 makes sense

00:13:22.580 because

00:13:22.880 we're about to

00:13:23.900 vaccinate the most 0.92

00:13:24.760 vulnerable

00:13:25.240 thus

00:13:26.200 protecting them

00:13:27.520 and more justification

00:13:28.740 for getting

00:13:29.440 the young people

00:13:30.340 the healthy people

00:13:31.080 back out there

00:13:31.960 living their lives

00:13:32.700 yeah I mean

00:13:33.600 that's exactly right

00:13:34.440 I mean I

00:13:34.960 I mean I

00:13:35.620 I personally have

00:13:36.380 an 80 year old mother

00:13:37.240 who I

00:13:38.220 I've told

00:13:39.080 she needs to isolate 0.85

00:13:40.680 because I don't want

00:13:41.780 her to get sick 1.00

00:13:42.460 because she would be

00:13:43.720 at high risk

00:13:44.220 if she were to get sick

00:13:45.100 I have

00:13:45.920 a 19 year old

00:13:47.880 daughter

00:13:49.000 13 and 15 year old

00:13:50.120 sons

00:13:50.360 I want them to

00:13:51.140 live their lives

00:13:51.880 that we've

00:13:52.460 they've been harmed

00:13:53.440 by this

00:13:53.880 this lockdown

00:13:54.640 in ways that are

00:13:55.440 impossible to replace

00:13:56.840 or fix

00:13:57.980 I personally

00:13:59.000 I'm 52

00:13:59.520 I would

00:14:00.260 I mean

00:14:01.060 my risk is

00:14:01.960 you know

00:14:02.340 moderate

00:14:02.780 but I would

00:14:04.140 willingly take the risk

00:14:05.800 so I could go teach

00:14:07.000 in person again

00:14:08.920 because I like

00:14:10.060 seeing my students

00:14:11.220 we have to understand

00:14:12.440 the risk is very

00:14:13.260 very different

00:14:13.820 and react

00:14:14.920 appropriately

00:14:15.920 you started

00:14:16.480 the conversation

00:14:18.000 with a question

00:14:19.480 about panic

00:14:20.140 and fear

00:14:21.440 we shouldn't be

00:14:22.260 living in panic

00:14:22.880 and fear

00:14:23.340 we should be

00:14:23.900 thinking about

00:14:24.400 what the risks

00:14:24.800 actually are

00:14:25.460 and live

00:14:26.880 reasonably

00:14:27.300 in the face

00:14:28.040 of them

00:14:28.380 but we seem

00:14:30.400 to be getting

00:14:30.800 back to that

00:14:31.460 you've got

00:14:32.000 the California

00:14:32.720 governor

00:14:33.060 the New York

00:14:33.460 governor

00:14:33.720 issuing shutdown

00:14:34.540 orders

00:14:35.040 you've got

00:14:36.540 LA

00:14:37.760 issuing

00:14:38.760 some

00:14:39.140 pretty

00:14:39.720 stern

00:14:40.840 stay-at-home

00:14:41.640 orders

00:14:42.160 you know

00:14:42.500 really scaring

00:14:43.280 people

00:14:43.600 about what's

00:14:44.260 going to happen

00:14:44.620 if they go

00:14:45.040 out

00:14:45.380 and

00:14:46.920 more and more

00:14:48.080 we're seeing

00:14:48.560 sort of

00:14:48.820 state after

00:14:49.220 state

00:14:49.540 start to

00:14:50.140 crack down

00:14:50.520 as the numbers

00:14:50.980 go up

00:14:51.460 and

00:14:51.780 the question

00:14:52.940 is whether

00:14:53.340 we should

00:14:54.260 be listening

00:14:54.780 whether they

00:14:55.280 should be

00:14:55.560 doing that

00:14:56.000 whether we

00:14:56.440 should be

00:14:56.700 listening

00:14:57.020 as the CDC

00:14:57.620 tells everyone

00:14:58.340 stay at home

00:14:59.540 don't travel

00:15:00.360 for Christmas

00:15:00.960 again we're

00:15:01.700 hearing we need

00:15:02.660 to quote

00:15:03.020 bend the curve

00:15:04.160 so do

00:15:05.160 do you guys

00:15:05.840 agree with

00:15:06.240 that

00:15:06.460 Martin

00:15:06.760 we're doing

00:15:08.260 exactly the

00:15:08.920 same mistake

00:15:09.600 as we did

00:15:10.040 in the spring

00:15:10.680 and which

00:15:11.260 led to

00:15:11.880 far too

00:15:12.400 many deaths

00:15:13.100 of COVID-19

00:15:14.460 and it's

00:15:15.200 doing the

00:15:15.540 opposite of

00:15:15.980 what we

00:15:16.260 should do

00:15:16.700 so in

00:15:17.540 many places

00:15:18.060 the schools

00:15:18.560 are closed

00:15:19.220 even though

00:15:20.020 the COVID-19

00:15:21.960 poses no risk

00:15:23.320 to the

00:15:23.820 children

00:15:24.320 as well as

00:15:26.280 teachers

00:15:27.320 don't having

00:15:28.260 any higher

00:15:28.860 risk than

00:15:29.440 other professions

00:15:30.140 by being

00:15:30.840 teachers

00:15:31.240 so they're

00:15:31.600 not at

00:15:31.860 high risk

00:15:32.240 either

00:15:32.540 so we're

00:15:33.060 really hurting

00:15:33.580 the kids

00:15:34.060 here by

00:15:34.640 keeping the

00:15:35.160 schools

00:15:35.400 closed

00:15:35.760 at the

00:15:36.080 same time

00:15:36.700 we are

00:15:37.300 not properly

00:15:38.320 protecting

00:15:38.840 older people

00:15:40.700 in nursing

00:15:41.440 homes for

00:15:41.820 example

00:15:42.180 so why

00:15:43.080 are we

00:15:43.360 testing

00:15:43.740 children

00:15:44.440 in schools

00:15:45.120 and university

00:15:45.840 colleges

00:15:46.300 who don't

00:15:47.080 need to be

00:15:47.500 testing

00:15:47.780 there's no

00:15:48.360 public health

00:15:48.880 reason for

00:15:49.360 that

00:15:49.700 at the

00:15:50.700 same time

00:15:51.420 as we

00:15:52.660 are not

00:15:52.940 doing proper

00:15:53.480 testing in

00:15:54.020 all the

00:15:54.220 nursing homes

00:15:54.700 so in

00:15:54.940 some nursing

00:15:55.440 homes

00:15:55.720 so one

00:15:56.320 thing that

00:15:56.560 Scott Atlas

00:15:57.140 has done

00:15:57.520 very good

00:15:58.080 during his

00:15:58.680 short tenure

00:15:59.980 in the

00:16:00.700 White House

00:16:01.160 was to

00:16:01.580 really push

00:16:02.120 better testing

00:16:02.840 for old

00:16:03.260 people

00:16:03.560 so that

00:16:04.140 the nursing

00:16:04.660 home

00:16:04.940 had access

00:16:05.600 to that

00:16:06.140 and that's

00:16:06.760 being done

00:16:07.120 in some

00:16:07.480 parts of the

00:16:08.180 country like

00:16:08.560 Florida for

00:16:09.040 example but

00:16:09.540 the other

00:16:09.880 places that

00:16:10.380 are still

00:16:10.740 not testing

00:16:11.280 nursing home

00:16:12.020 staff frequently

00:16:13.160 and they

00:16:13.440 should be

00:16:13.740 tested now

00:16:14.360 during the

00:16:14.800 height of

00:16:15.140 transmission

00:16:15.600 at least

00:16:16.900 three times

00:16:17.460 a week

00:16:17.800 and maybe

00:16:18.120 more

00:16:18.460 you don't

00:16:19.220 you don't

00:16:19.240 think the

00:16:19.500 goal should

00:16:19.900 be close

00:16:20.740 the restaurants

00:16:21.220 close the

00:16:21.680 bars

00:16:21.980 don't travel

00:16:22.900 don't go

00:16:23.520 to college

00:16:23.980 don't mingle

00:16:24.580 because it

00:16:26.080 even getting

00:16:27.500 COVID is

00:16:28.260 really not

00:16:29.000 that scary

00:16:29.560 a proposition

00:16:30.180 for the

00:16:31.020 vast majority

00:16:31.760 of people

00:16:32.420 and even

00:16:33.120 with a

00:16:33.440 vaccine on

00:16:33.940 the horizon

00:16:34.460 people don't

00:16:35.900 need to be

00:16:36.460 so freaked

00:16:37.360 out about

00:16:37.800 the possibility

00:16:38.580 of getting

00:16:39.240 it unless

00:16:39.740 they're in

00:16:40.180 the high

00:16:40.520 risk group

00:16:41.280 correct so

00:16:42.580 we should

00:16:42.980 put all the

00:16:43.620 resources to

00:16:44.380 protect those

00:16:45.200 older people

00:16:46.080 which we're

00:16:47.100 not doing

00:16:47.500 properly so

00:16:48.460 that's very

00:16:49.560 very unfortunate

00:16:50.620 and we have

00:16:51.280 to do a better

00:16:51.760 job protecting

00:16:52.380 them instead

00:16:52.960 we are putting

00:16:53.960 the resources

00:16:54.540 on protecting

00:16:55.600 people who

00:16:56.180 don't need to

00:16:56.580 protect them

00:16:57.040 like school

00:16:57.440 children they

00:16:58.120 need education

00:16:58.840 not for just

00:16:59.820 for educational

00:17:00.900 needs but also

00:17:01.640 for physical

00:17:02.160 health mental

00:17:02.820 health and

00:17:03.840 social development

00:17:04.960 and that's

00:17:05.520 long-term damage

00:17:06.560 that we're doing

00:17:07.140 to our children

00:17:07.940 and we should

00:17:08.700 never as a

00:17:09.460 country put

00:17:10.420 the burden

00:17:11.060 on children

00:17:12.420 who are not

00:17:13.180 at risk here

00:17:13.840 we should always

00:17:14.860 take care of

00:17:15.900 our children

00:17:16.300 and let them

00:17:17.040 go to school

00:17:17.580 and let them

00:17:18.060 live normal

00:17:18.540 lives in

00:17:19.400 Sweden they

00:17:20.300 kept the

00:17:20.920 schools open

00:17:21.560 during the

00:17:22.100 spring for

00:17:22.660 ages 1 to

00:17:23.380 15 and

00:17:24.540 there were

00:17:24.800 8.1.8

00:17:26.080 million children

00:17:26.620 in this age

00:17:27.200 group and

00:17:27.640 exactly zero

00:17:28.700 died from

00:17:29.600 COVID-19 and

00:17:30.580 there were only

00:17:31.060 a few

00:17:31.420 hospitalizations

00:17:32.240 among children

00:17:32.920 so we should

00:17:34.000 not hurt the

00:17:34.740 children that

00:17:35.200 we're doing

00:17:35.580 right now by

00:17:36.280 closing the

00:17:36.860 schools

00:17:37.360 you know what

00:17:38.460 they say

00:17:38.840 they say but

00:17:39.340 the children

00:17:39.700 will bring the

00:17:40.460 infection

00:17:41.060 they'll bring

00:17:41.760 the virus home

00:17:42.600 to an elderly

00:17:43.420 grandparent or

00:17:44.500 someone else

00:17:45.240 that they're

00:17:45.940 near and

00:17:46.900 so what

00:17:47.860 we've been

00:17:48.240 told is the

00:17:48.900 children have

00:17:49.440 to be making

00:17:49.940 this sacrifice

00:17:50.940 for older

00:17:52.140 people in the

00:17:52.900 community what

00:17:53.940 do you think

00:17:54.200 of that

00:17:54.520 I don't think

00:17:55.700 any old

00:17:56.220 person wants

00:17:57.400 their grandchildren

00:17:58.040 to make such

00:17:58.700 a sacrifice

00:17:59.280 and we are

00:18:00.460 it is possible

00:18:01.380 to protect

00:18:02.020 old people 0.85

00:18:03.140 also the old

00:18:04.320 people are not

00:18:05.080 so much at risk

00:18:05.780 from the children

00:18:06.400 we know that

00:18:07.000 from studies

00:18:07.660 they are at

00:18:08.300 risk from

00:18:08.720 working age

00:18:09.380 adults that's

00:18:10.380 the ones who

00:18:11.000 are giving

00:18:11.360 them COVID

00:18:12.180 so they need

00:18:13.200 to be protected

00:18:14.080 from working

00:18:14.860 age adults

00:18:15.800 and we can

00:18:17.040 do that by

00:18:17.840 not having them

00:18:18.800 go to the

00:18:19.160 grocery stores

00:18:19.800 to buy food

00:18:20.680 for example

00:18:21.200 I see all

00:18:22.220 people in the

00:18:22.780 grocery stores

00:18:23.460 and they should

00:18:23.960 not be there

00:18:24.540 they should still

00:18:25.960 see friends

00:18:27.000 and family

00:18:27.500 because that's

00:18:28.200 important

00:18:28.840 preferably outdoors

00:18:30.000 but if not

00:18:30.900 that possible

00:18:31.580 their friends

00:18:32.380 and family

00:18:32.840 should be tested

00:18:33.560 but they

00:18:35.120 older people

00:18:35.960 should not be

00:18:36.480 out mingling

00:18:37.000 in crowds

00:18:37.660 what about

00:18:38.600 the schools

00:18:39.180 because the

00:18:40.000 ones that

00:18:40.460 are open

00:18:41.060 thankfully

00:18:41.560 still have

00:18:43.280 really strict

00:18:44.820 restrictions

00:18:45.420 in place

00:18:46.200 I mean the

00:18:46.780 kids

00:18:47.180 I've got

00:18:47.960 three little

00:18:48.480 kids

00:18:48.920 and I know

00:18:49.720 just from

00:18:50.020 their schools

00:18:50.500 there's a

00:18:51.880 six foot

00:18:52.320 distancing

00:18:52.800 required for

00:18:53.680 every child

00:18:54.420 my daughter

00:18:55.700 she's not

00:18:56.720 allowed to

00:18:57.160 speak

00:18:57.720 during lunch

00:18:58.700 the children

00:18:59.580 may not

00:19:00.120 speak

00:19:00.640 because they're

00:19:01.380 worried about

00:19:01.960 air coming

00:19:02.640 out of their

00:19:03.040 mouth

00:19:03.380 and projecting

00:19:04.580 on other

00:19:04.980 children

00:19:05.320 so they have

00:19:05.820 to put on

00:19:06.280 a movie

00:19:06.640 all the

00:19:08.220 kids

00:19:08.620 if they have

00:19:09.920 a recess

00:19:10.320 they have

00:19:11.100 to wear

00:19:11.380 their masks

00:19:11.920 as they

00:19:12.400 run around

00:19:13.260 for PE

00:19:14.180 which our

00:19:14.840 pediatrician

00:19:15.340 said could

00:19:15.880 raise some

00:19:16.400 health issues

00:19:17.620 that he

00:19:17.940 doesn't like

00:19:18.520 you know

00:19:19.420 we're grateful

00:19:19.980 that they're

00:19:20.340 in school

00:19:20.760 but I do

00:19:21.240 worry about

00:19:22.080 A the 0.53

00:19:23.100 psychological

00:19:23.580 scare to

00:19:24.140 kids and

00:19:24.580 having to

00:19:25.080 behave like

00:19:25.620 this and

00:19:26.160 B whether

00:19:26.740 any of this

00:19:28.180 is really

00:19:28.580 necessary

00:19:29.320 to those

00:19:30.120 restrictions

00:19:30.780 I just

00:19:31.220 mentioned

00:19:31.660 what do

00:19:32.060 you think

00:19:32.360 Jay

00:19:32.580 I think

00:19:33.320 the

00:19:33.920 restrictions

00:19:34.680 on our

00:19:35.080 school kids

00:19:35.500 are

00:19:35.720 I mean

00:19:36.660 I don't

00:19:37.200 have the

00:19:37.780 language

00:19:38.120 to express

00:19:38.660 how

00:19:39.040 unhappy

00:19:40.500 I am

00:19:40.860 about

00:19:41.060 them

00:19:41.260 there was

00:19:41.660 a recent

00:19:41.980 study

00:19:42.340 done

00:19:42.700 published

00:19:43.360 in the

00:19:43.780 journal

00:19:43.980 of the

00:19:44.160 medical

00:19:44.300 association

00:19:45.060 open network

00:19:45.880 which is

00:19:46.240 a prominent

00:19:47.040 medical

00:19:47.320 journal

00:19:47.560 estimated

00:19:48.140 that the

00:19:48.820 schooling

00:19:49.380 loss

00:19:49.960 for our

00:19:50.800 kids

00:19:51.180 just from

00:19:52.600 the spring

00:19:54.140 with the

00:19:57.020 cutting down

00:19:57.500 of in-person

00:19:57.940 learning

00:19:58.540 will lead

00:19:59.400 to five

00:20:00.000 and a half

00:20:00.500 million

00:20:00.940 lost life

00:20:01.780 years

00:20:02.160 for our

00:20:03.020 kids

00:20:03.320 because

00:20:03.940 you miss

00:20:04.680 school

00:20:05.060 you think

00:20:05.580 that's just

00:20:05.880 a small

00:20:06.240 thing

00:20:06.480 but it's

00:20:06.780 not

00:20:07.060 it has

00:20:07.360 knock-on

00:20:07.780 consequences

00:20:08.380 through the

00:20:08.740 whole rest

00:20:09.240 of your

00:20:09.560 life

00:20:09.940 people make

00:20:10.780 decisions

00:20:11.260 based on

00:20:12.120 what they've

00:20:12.480 learned in

00:20:12.880 school

00:20:13.220 and that

00:20:13.780 has consequences

00:20:14.560 for their

00:20:14.920 health

00:20:15.160 less well

00:20:15.940 educated kids

00:20:16.640 leave sicker

00:20:18.100 shorter lives

00:20:19.340 five and a half

00:20:20.120 million that

00:20:20.460 we've taken

00:20:21.060 from our

00:20:21.380 kids

00:20:21.600 you asked

00:20:22.500 the second

00:20:22.840 part of your

00:20:23.120 question

00:20:23.300 is important

00:20:23.700 too

00:20:23.900 what are we

00:20:24.400 getting for

00:20:24.940 it

00:20:25.100 well

00:20:25.360 the kids

00:20:25.940 don't pass

00:20:26.600 the disease

00:20:27.080 on very

00:20:27.620 efficiently

00:20:28.100 for reasons

00:20:28.640 we don't

00:20:28.940 understand

00:20:29.400 but we

00:20:30.040 know for

00:20:30.640 an absolute

00:20:31.340 fact from

00:20:31.960 a vast

00:20:32.480 literature

00:20:32.860 kids are

00:20:34.000 not the

00:20:34.540 super spreaders

00:20:35.220 that they've

00:20:35.960 been in the

00:20:37.020 press

00:20:37.380 in fact

00:20:38.080 they are

00:20:38.380 much more

00:20:40.000 likely to

00:20:40.780 get the

00:20:41.120 disease from

00:20:41.580 parents and

00:20:42.480 others than

00:20:42.900 they are to

00:20:43.560 spread the

00:20:43.940 disease to

00:20:44.460 the teachers

00:20:44.980 for instance

00:20:45.540 our schools

00:20:46.360 should be

00:20:46.640 open

00:20:47.000 as Martin

00:20:48.120 said

00:20:48.420 the schools

00:20:49.300 are open

00:20:49.840 in much

00:20:50.440 of the

00:20:50.640 world

00:20:50.880 through much

00:20:52.040 of the

00:20:52.220 epidemic

00:20:52.640 France

00:20:53.320 has kept

00:20:53.660 its schools

00:20:54.040 open despite

00:20:54.580 the rise

00:20:55.200 in cases

00:20:55.660 on the

00:20:56.240 basis of

00:20:56.680 this very

00:20:57.140 strong

00:20:57.560 scientific

00:20:57.920 evidence

00:20:58.440 that it's

00:20:59.280 safe

00:20:59.520 and as

00:20:59.860 far as

00:21:00.120 the kinds

00:21:01.040 of restrictions

00:21:01.540 you're talking

00:21:02.040 about

00:21:02.360 that doesn't

00:21:02.880 sound like

00:21:03.740 school

00:21:05.060 also is not

00:21:06.120 just about

00:21:06.480 education

00:21:07.000 it's about

00:21:07.420 socialization

00:21:08.240 learning skills

00:21:09.280 to interact

00:21:09.700 with people

00:21:10.260 instead

00:21:11.060 we're creating

00:21:12.240 this environment

00:21:13.100 even in schools

00:21:13.680 that are open

00:21:14.400 for in-person

00:21:15.340 learning

00:21:15.720 of fear

00:21:16.280 we should be

00:21:18.140 teaching our

00:21:20.020 kids the way

00:21:20.500 we normally

00:21:21.000 teach our

00:21:21.480 kids

00:21:21.680 even better

00:21:23.300 than we

00:21:23.560 normally

00:21:23.780 teach

00:21:24.040 I think

00:21:24.400 but certainly

00:21:25.820 not the kind

00:21:26.520 of environment

00:21:26.860 you're talking

00:21:27.280 about

00:21:27.480 I think

00:21:27.700 that is

00:21:28.020 not warranted

00:21:29.260 given what

00:21:29.720 we know

00:21:30.000 from scientific

00:21:30.520 evidence

00:21:31.060 yeah those

00:21:31.880 restrictions

00:21:32.620 are nonsense

00:21:33.460 and there's

00:21:34.780 absolutely no

00:21:35.760 public health

00:21:36.420 rationale for

00:21:37.180 them and we

00:21:37.880 have to look

00:21:38.500 at it

00:21:38.820 scientifically

00:21:39.340 and again

00:21:40.240 to do that

00:21:41.400 we need to

00:21:41.780 look at

00:21:42.060 Sweden again

00:21:42.600 who kept

00:21:43.040 the schools

00:21:43.460 open in

00:21:44.540 the spring

00:21:44.980 during the

00:21:45.440 height of

00:21:45.780 the pandemic

00:21:46.260 and where

00:21:47.120 there was

00:21:47.400 no death

00:21:48.060 that was

00:21:48.640 accomplished

00:21:49.040 by having

00:21:49.760 no testing

00:21:50.960 in the

00:21:51.220 schools

00:21:51.600 no children

00:21:52.280 was tested

00:21:52.860 there were

00:21:53.300 no masks

00:21:54.060 there were

00:21:54.560 no social

00:21:55.080 distancing

00:21:55.600 the two

00:21:56.380 things they

00:21:56.720 did was

00:21:57.220 when a

00:21:57.560 child is

00:21:58.080 sick

00:21:58.420 have

00:21:58.620 symptoms

00:21:59.040 like a

00:21:59.440 cough

00:21:59.780 or a

00:22:00.380 runny nose

00:22:01.240 they were

00:22:01.640 told to

00:22:01.980 be home

00:22:02.420 and there

00:22:03.640 was no

00:22:04.200 citywide

00:22:05.360 like school

00:22:06.120 wide

00:22:06.380 big gatherings

00:22:07.320 like in the

00:22:07.840 cafeteria

00:22:08.140 with hundreds

00:22:08.640 of kids

00:22:09.060 the kids

00:22:09.420 stayed with

00:22:09.880 their 20

00:22:10.300 25 people

00:22:11.420 in the

00:22:11.740 classrooms

00:22:12.200 so that's

00:22:13.240 what Sweden

00:22:13.600 did without

00:22:14.120 any of those

00:22:14.900 restrictions

00:22:15.400 and it did

00:22:16.240 perfectly fine

00:22:17.160 with zero

00:22:17.920 deaths among

00:22:19.140 the children

00:22:19.620 so these

00:22:20.660 restrictions

00:22:21.100 are not based

00:22:22.060 on public

00:22:22.520 health

00:22:22.860 they are based

00:22:23.360 on politics

00:22:24.060 yeah and

00:22:25.240 fear like

00:22:25.740 the fear

00:22:26.320 forgive the

00:22:27.540 term but

00:22:27.860 people call

00:22:28.240 it covid

00:22:28.660 porn you

00:22:29.260 know where

00:22:29.520 people just

00:22:30.080 they play

00:22:31.040 up the

00:22:31.320 newspapers

00:22:31.680 play up the

00:22:32.480 number of

00:22:32.840 deaths without

00:22:33.280 context how

00:22:34.540 the number

00:22:34.960 the infection

00:22:35.540 rate without

00:22:36.480 context and

00:22:37.660 people believe

00:22:38.900 that this is

00:22:39.500 this is

00:22:40.240 potentially deadly

00:22:40.860 for everyone

00:22:41.520 who gets it

00:22:42.460 meanwhile it's

00:22:42.980 virtually not at

00:22:43.620 all for for

00:22:44.480 children there's

00:22:44.900 only been a

00:22:45.320 handful of

00:22:45.860 cases and

00:22:47.180 they've been

00:22:48.120 really rare and

00:22:48.900 there's still

00:22:49.200 questions as I

00:22:49.920 understand about

00:22:50.460 whether there

00:22:51.320 really are covid

00:22:52.220 related

00:22:52.680 more with

00:22:54.820 jane martin in

00:22:55.620 just one minute

00:22:56.220 but first the

00:22:57.300 holiday season is

00:22:58.140 about celebrating

00:22:58.860 and spreading joy

00:23:00.140 to those we love

00:23:00.960 our friends

00:23:01.720 family neighbors

00:23:03.120 and even our

00:23:04.380 pets that amount

00:23:05.800 of joy can

00:23:06.280 require a lot of

00:23:07.000 online holiday

00:23:07.980 shopping have you

00:23:08.700 been doing it me

00:23:09.340 too and the more

00:23:10.600 you do it online

00:23:11.760 like gift giving

00:23:12.980 banking browsing

00:23:14.100 the more you

00:23:15.140 potentially expose

00:23:16.000 your personal

00:23:16.460 information which

00:23:17.560 makes you more

00:23:18.160 vulnerable to

00:23:19.060 cyber criminals yes

00:23:20.240 you need to think

00:23:20.840 about santa and

00:23:22.220 cyber criminals at

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00:24:13.720 let's talk about

00:24:18.760 sweden is is your

00:24:20.060 approach the same

00:24:21.420 that your recommended

00:24:22.200 approach this sort of

00:24:23.420 focus protection the

00:24:24.680 same as what sweden

00:24:26.040 did it's not exactly

00:24:27.540 the same because

00:24:28.400 sweden as many other

00:24:30.140 countries has not done

00:24:31.100 a good enough job

00:24:32.040 protecting the old 0.89

00:24:33.120 people so in that

00:24:34.800 sense it's not the

00:24:35.600 same on the other

00:24:36.520 hand it is the same

00:24:37.560 in the sense that

00:24:38.500 schools should be open

00:24:39.520 like they were in

00:24:40.420 sweden and they

00:24:41.320 still are open in

00:24:42.880 sweden the for

00:24:44.180 this age group so

00:24:45.120 in that sense it's

00:24:45.920 the same but i know

00:24:47.220 sweden's getting

00:24:47.900 criticized and i never

00:24:49.120 know what to believe

00:24:49.760 because i know the

00:24:50.340 mainstream media is

00:24:51.160 rooting against sweden

00:24:52.280 i mean they just are

00:24:53.200 they have a dog in

00:24:54.940 this hunt weirdly and

00:24:56.460 so every report i get

00:24:57.380 out of them about the

00:24:58.480 sweden numbers is it's

00:24:59.820 failing it's failing

00:25:00.560 it's failing and their

00:25:01.620 numbers are much higher

00:25:02.540 than these other

00:25:03.100 nordic countries that

00:25:04.660 had more restrictive

00:25:05.480 approaches and

00:25:06.560 lockdowns and i guess

00:25:08.480 sweden itself has

00:25:09.240 admitted that it

00:25:09.780 should have done more

00:25:10.660 to protect the elderly

00:25:11.640 in sort of these

00:25:12.640 long-term care

00:25:13.700 facilities which i

00:25:14.500 think everyone is

00:25:15.080 seeing but what do

00:25:16.200 you think it has

00:25:17.260 sweden been a 0.97

00:25:18.500 successful experiment

00:25:20.020 well i don't think

00:25:21.260 it's an experiment i

00:25:22.240 think the lockdowns

00:25:23.140 are an unsuccessful

00:25:24.680 experiment but norway

00:25:26.180 also didn't have much

00:25:27.120 lockdown so it's in

00:25:28.100 the sense that they

00:25:29.760 are very similar to

00:25:30.600 sweden and in

00:25:31.700 sweden it's stock

00:25:32.520 home that had high

00:25:33.200 rates where the rest

00:25:34.020 of sweden has been

00:25:34.680 pretty low and if we

00:25:35.840 look at it now sweden

00:25:36.860 had more cases than

00:25:38.560 some other european

00:25:39.680 countries in the

00:25:40.480 spring not as not as

00:25:42.140 bad as new york new

00:25:43.720 jersey massachusetts

00:25:44.940 and connecticut much

00:25:46.120 less than that but

00:25:47.080 they had higher rates

00:25:48.200 than many other

00:25:48.760 european countries but

00:25:49.820 then now in the fall

00:25:51.060 it's instead lower

00:25:52.300 than many other you

00:25:53.740 most of the european

00:25:54.640 countries so what what

00:25:56.640 the lockdown did in

00:25:57.620 the spring was sort

00:25:58.500 of in certain places

00:26:00.100 was sort of postponing

00:26:01.540 the problem until now

00:26:02.740 in the fall

00:26:03.240 actually can i return

00:26:04.220 to that about the

00:26:05.140 lockdown and the

00:26:06.620 deaths that are

00:26:07.800 associated with the

00:26:08.420 lockdown and one of

00:26:09.500 the things that we

00:26:10.160 realized about the

00:26:10.760 lockdown is that it

00:26:12.080 the economic

00:26:12.900 dislocation caused by

00:26:14.060 it actually creates

00:26:15.280 danger right so so

00:26:16.840 many young people

00:26:17.780 lose their jobs go

00:26:19.060 back live at home

00:26:20.120 with older older

00:26:21.080 parents or even

00:26:22.040 grandparents now

00:26:23.240 you've created this

00:26:24.340 danger of this mixed 1.00

00:26:25.580 environment where the

00:26:26.780 young person gets 0.53

00:26:27.480 sick they're they're

00:26:28.320 probably going to be

00:26:28.880 fine but they might

00:26:30.120 pass the the the

00:26:31.300 disease on to an

00:26:32.420 older person because

00:26:33.380 they're living in

00:26:33.920 close proximity we

00:26:35.400 close universities and

00:26:36.480 send people send

00:26:37.280 send our kids home to

00:26:38.360 live with it with

00:26:39.000 their older parents

00:26:39.940 again you created

00:26:40.780 the sort of

00:26:41.180 intergenerational

00:26:41.780 mixing that

00:26:42.340 otherwise wouldn't

00:26:42.940 be taking place

00:26:43.820 these lockdowns

00:26:45.520 it's they themselves

00:26:46.700 create disease spread

00:26:48.580 risk exactly where

00:26:50.020 you don't want it

00:26:50.860 it's because they're

00:26:51.780 untargeted and naive

00:26:53.260 about the who's

00:26:54.620 actually a danger

00:26:55.480 that that i think

00:26:56.500 we're we're really

00:26:57.400 opposed to it it

00:26:58.500 doesn't make sense

00:26:59.720 from an epidemiologic

00:27:00.600 point of view to

00:27:01.280 create that kind of

00:27:02.620 mixing when in just

00:27:03.800 normal course of life

00:27:04.720 you wouldn't have it

00:27:05.500 it's crazy how strict

00:27:07.040 they've been on

00:27:07.640 college students

00:27:08.320 some some college

00:27:09.160 students have been

00:27:09.760 expelled from their

00:27:11.400 universities because

00:27:12.380 they were found not

00:27:13.240 socially distancing

00:27:14.120 properly or not

00:27:16.020 quarantining exactly the

00:27:17.300 right number of days

00:27:18.300 i mean they are

00:27:19.560 treating these guys

00:27:20.480 like they have

00:27:21.120 contracted the plague

00:27:22.500 and have placed the

00:27:23.460 entire community at

00:27:24.460 great risk of death

00:27:25.560 if they violate any of

00:27:27.660 these rules which

00:27:29.480 as you point out may

00:27:30.300 not even be based in

00:27:31.320 science why is that

00:27:33.220 is that a media

00:27:34.140 creation what do you

00:27:35.300 guys think having

00:27:36.040 studied it i mean i

00:27:37.240 think it's it's the

00:27:37.900 result of fear and

00:27:39.220 and and a lack of

00:27:41.300 of creative thinking

00:27:42.800 about what what does

00:27:44.120 work and what doesn't

00:27:44.980 work i mean i think

00:27:45.880 for for colleges i

00:27:47.000 completely agree with

00:27:47.960 you it is absolutely

00:27:49.000 what we've done is

00:27:50.660 just an enormous

00:27:51.920 mistake public health

00:27:52.960 should never create a

00:27:54.040 situation where we

00:27:54.860 shame people it

00:27:56.040 should never create a

00:27:56.700 situation where we

00:27:57.540 we guilt people who

00:27:58.740 get sick we should 0.95

00:28:00.080 provide be providing

00:28:00.960 compassionate care to

00:28:01.960 people like like that

00:28:02.920 give people good

00:28:03.660 tools to make good

00:28:05.280 choices not not

00:28:06.340 create this atmosphere

00:28:07.280 of shame and

00:28:08.120 recrimination um i

00:28:09.640 mean i think back to

00:28:10.420 an early story from

00:28:11.420 the epidemic uh i think

00:28:12.980 it was the air force

00:28:13.560 academy where they uh

00:28:15.000 they sent home most of

00:28:16.060 the classes and they

00:28:17.240 kept the seniors and

00:28:18.540 but basically required

00:28:20.380 that seniors to to

00:28:21.580 to uh in in to live

00:28:23.660 in basically solitary

00:28:24.640 confinement more or less

00:28:25.900 during the spring

00:28:26.760 whether you know the

00:28:27.600 food would be delivered

00:28:28.260 to them but they

00:28:28.720 really just interact with

00:28:29.680 people via zoom and

00:28:30.800 not much else two of

00:28:32.360 those two of those

00:28:33.140 seniors committed

00:28:34.000 suicide right the

00:28:35.040 psychological stress

00:28:35.900 from that kind of

00:28:36.480 isolation from those

00:28:37.400 the recrimination of

00:28:38.740 if you violate the

00:28:39.660 rule you're you're

00:28:40.360 guilty of of harming

00:28:41.520 so many people all of

00:28:43.100 that is leads to

00:28:44.040 enormous psychological

00:28:44.940 stress i know there

00:28:45.640 are suicides in in

00:28:46.600 universities now uh

00:28:48.060 that that are

00:28:48.480 happening around the

00:28:49.180 country because of

00:28:49.960 these because of

00:28:50.620 these rules the

00:28:51.480 lockdowns in these in

00:28:53.160 these uh can be

00:28:54.460 these universities are

00:28:55.800 not actually helping

00:28:56.980 our students and it's

00:28:57.700 not actually helping

00:28:58.500 disease control we

00:28:59.580 we should instead be

00:29:00.320 giving our students

00:29:01.560 good uh good

00:29:02.700 information about how

00:29:03.460 to protect themselves

00:29:04.560 and others uh and

00:29:05.740 but so the most part

00:29:06.820 the main thing is to

00:29:08.160 not interact with

00:29:09.660 older people if they

00:29:10.660 believe if they if

00:29:11.580 they actually are at

00:29:12.640 at uh you know with

00:29:13.720 with symptoms with

00:29:14.620 other other kinds of

00:29:15.440 conditions that they

00:29:16.080 might make them think

00:29:16.780 that they are have the

00:29:18.260 disease give testing

00:29:19.460 for them so that that

00:29:20.560 they you know uh the

00:29:21.800 the testing actually is

00:29:22.740 interesting thing too

00:29:23.480 we we we link these

00:29:25.180 tests to public health

00:29:26.640 reporting so all of a

00:29:27.780 sudden now you get a

00:29:28.880 test to see if i can

00:29:29.740 go visit my grandma

00:29:30.580 um now it's a public

00:29:32.240 event if i if i if

00:29:34.040 i'm positive i'm going

00:29:34.840 to get a two-week

00:29:35.360 quarantine i'm not a

00:29:36.480 lot of people think

00:29:37.280 to themselves well do

00:29:38.520 i really want to risk

00:29:39.240 the two-week quarantine

00:29:40.020 i think i'll just go

00:29:40.700 visit grandma without

00:29:41.420 test um we should be

00:29:43.280 allowing people to to

00:29:44.780 privately get tested

00:29:45.980 and then they'll make

00:29:46.860 let them make good

00:29:47.500 decisions i mean they

00:29:48.800 don't want to they 0.63

00:29:49.320 don't want to infect

00:29:50.220 grandma i don't want

00:29:51.060 my mom infected if i

00:29:52.620 if i can take a test

00:29:54.120 privately you know i'm

00:29:54.780 positive i won't go

00:29:55.480 visit her that's a

00:29:56.340 really good point

00:29:56.800 because i can tell you

00:29:57.580 um just in our

00:29:58.760 community that we go

00:29:59.500 to over the summer

00:30:00.160 new jersey they we

00:30:01.440 actually had a very

00:30:02.180 fortunate summer where

00:30:03.500 it seemed the infection

00:30:04.300 rate in our community

00:30:05.200 was very low we had a

00:30:06.200 day camp open for the

00:30:07.060 kids but one college

00:30:09.240 guy got covid and had

00:30:11.440 no symptoms whatsoever

00:30:12.660 throughout his entire

00:30:13.620 time with covid but he

00:30:15.100 just had the good

00:30:15.980 fortune of getting

00:30:16.520 tested and saw that he

00:30:17.480 had it so you know he

00:30:18.500 left and quarantined

00:30:20.360 but the shame the shame

00:30:23.040 that was and this kid

00:30:23.980 did everything right he

00:30:25.200 found out a friend had

00:30:26.280 tested positive he went

00:30:27.840 he got tested he had

00:30:29.620 it he quarantined

00:30:30.400 immediately but i mean

00:30:32.000 he was outed people

00:30:34.100 somehow found a way of

00:30:35.560 looking at him like he'd

00:30:36.520 done something

00:30:36.920 irresponsible and it's

00:30:38.260 it became like a

00:30:39.060 scarlet letter and and

00:30:40.780 of course everyone else

00:30:41.520 in the community is like

00:30:42.240 well i'm not saying if i

00:30:44.100 get it like i i'm just

00:30:45.520 gonna go underground for

00:30:46.420 two weeks or you know

00:30:47.300 there has still been a

00:30:49.180 shame attached to it as

00:30:50.340 though you've done

00:30:50.900 something wrong if you

00:30:52.120 get it yeah i mean it's

00:30:53.460 a virus uh we have

00:30:55.640 very incomplete measures

00:30:57.040 available to protect

00:30:57.980 ourselves from it we

00:30:59.100 shouldn't be shaming

00:30:59.760 people who happen to

00:31:00.460 get it i mean you

00:31:01.140 could you can take all

00:31:02.120 the measures you like and

00:31:03.120 you might still get it

00:31:04.380 i mean i thought we'd

00:31:05.080 learn from the hiv

00:31:06.020 epidemic uh in public

00:31:07.520 health to not shame

00:31:08.760 rather to provide

00:31:10.380 resources and care for

00:31:11.640 people who get sick i

00:31:12.720 mean it's an enormous

00:31:13.760 step backwards and

00:31:14.900 scarlet letter that's

00:31:15.700 exactly the right i mean

00:31:16.640 i've often thought about

00:31:17.840 this is like the scarlet

00:31:18.860 sea right oh i got the

00:31:20.280 i got the coronavirus it's

00:31:21.900 a it's an enormous

00:31:22.680 mistake megan and i

00:31:23.800 think it's not it's a

00:31:24.420 mistake that we uh in

00:31:25.840 public health are going

00:31:26.400 to regret because it's

00:31:27.800 hard to ring that bell

00:31:28.940 just to round back to

00:31:30.040 the discussion on

00:31:30.780 schools here in new

00:31:31.920 york city our mayor who

00:31:34.200 in whom no one has any

00:31:35.620 faith he closed the

00:31:36.880 schools and then after

00:31:38.480 public pressure reared

00:31:39.760 its head he said okay

00:31:40.820 i'll open up the

00:31:41.560 elementary schools and

00:31:43.480 meantime it seems like

00:31:45.420 all the data is the

00:31:46.540 schools are safe and you

00:31:47.520 can open them up but but

00:31:49.060 a lot of these officials

00:31:49.900 are drawing a line between

00:31:50.880 elementary schools lower

00:31:52.080 schools and middle school

00:31:53.060 and high school and to

00:31:53.720 your point about suicide

00:31:54.960 rates and depression i

00:31:56.240 mean who is is at

00:31:58.580 greater risk of

00:31:59.300 depression than young

00:32:01.040 teenage boys in

00:32:02.300 particular but also girls

00:32:03.520 i worry about the high

00:32:04.760 schoolers and the middle

00:32:06.400 schoolers they they need

00:32:08.200 socialization and

00:32:09.400 connection probably even

00:32:10.720 more than the littles and

00:32:12.860 they've been like i i know

00:32:14.500 a lot of friends who have

00:32:15.220 teenagers who are really 0.73

00:32:16.340 sullen withdrawn depressed

00:32:18.560 at not having seen their

00:32:20.080 friends so is there

00:32:21.120 something to this

00:32:22.780 distinction these

00:32:23.720 officials are drawing

00:32:24.580 between the littles and

00:32:25.980 the middle school and

00:32:26.700 high school i think

00:32:27.760 school should be open

00:32:28.620 for all children as you

00:32:31.140 say that is very

00:32:32.040 important for high

00:32:32.660 school kids with the

00:32:34.020 socializations i mean the

00:32:35.320 only the distinction is

00:32:36.820 that a small child can

00:32:39.940 need some kind of care by

00:32:41.540 an adult so if the if the

00:32:43.380 parents are working then

00:32:44.500 they need to go with the

00:32:45.320 grandparent and that's not

00:32:46.440 not the best solution

00:32:48.220 while a teenage can stay

00:32:49.640 at home alone so that's

00:32:50.920 the only sort of

00:32:51.780 logistic restriction but

00:32:53.420 you're right that this is

00:32:55.780 a very tragic for for

00:32:58.980 teenagers and high school

00:33:00.520 students as well as

00:33:01.340 university students so we

00:33:03.040 should open immediately

00:33:04.020 all schools for in-person

00:33:05.260 teaching okay let's talk

00:33:06.660 about the vaccines because

00:33:08.420 you tell me but to me

00:33:10.400 these seem like miracles i

00:33:12.700 mean 95 percent effective

00:33:14.280 at least three companies

00:33:16.020 so far saying they've got

00:33:17.200 it pfizer moderna

00:33:18.240 astrazeneca i you know

00:33:20.580 that millions and

00:33:21.780 millions of doses

00:33:22.600 available this month

00:33:25.000 december we assume if

00:33:27.060 they get approved here in

00:33:27.920 the united states the way

00:33:28.680 we've seen in britain it

00:33:30.300 seems wonderful i i only

00:33:32.760 hope it's true are you

00:33:34.380 guys as optimistic about

00:33:36.180 the vaccines i'll ask you

00:33:37.460 that one martin so the

00:33:38.940 scientist has done a

00:33:40.360 fantastic fantastic job

00:33:42.100 developing vaccines so

00:33:43.660 they need they deserve a

00:33:45.740 big feather in the hats

00:33:46.720 for doing that what we

00:33:48.440 thought so far we've only

00:33:49.860 seen the press releases

00:33:51.220 for the companies and for

00:33:53.540 pfizer for example which i

00:33:55.000 think was just approved in

00:33:55.900 the uk we still haven't

00:33:57.560 seen the actual data but on

00:33:59.580 december 8th fda is

00:34:01.720 planning to release that

00:34:02.880 data so that's when we

00:34:04.340 really know what is the

00:34:05.440 efficacy and safety of this

00:34:08.040 vaccine and that's when we

00:34:09.640 can sort of judge it how

00:34:10.620 good it is and for what

00:34:12.060 for what groups it might

00:34:14.700 be more have more

00:34:16.500 efficacy versus less

00:34:17.540 efficacy yeah astrazeneca

00:34:19.440 is saying that it may be

00:34:20.340 able to produce 200 million

00:34:21.600 doses worldwide by the end

00:34:23.480 of 2020 so that would be

00:34:25.180 i mean that's not just

00:34:26.780 america of course but that

00:34:27.780 would be spectacular and

00:34:28.860 then the other two are

00:34:29.660 saying that i guess um 40

00:34:31.960 million doses so 20 million

00:34:33.220 people could be helped by

00:34:34.020 the end of december uh

00:34:35.620 because i actually didn't

00:34:36.420 realize this but you had to

00:34:37.160 have two shots whether you

00:34:38.200 get the pfizer or the

00:34:39.140 moderna or or the

00:34:40.300 astrazeneca vaccine uh

00:34:42.880 johnson and johnson is

00:34:43.700 reportedly testing a one

00:34:44.760 dose vaccine the the one

00:34:47.260 especially from pfizer

00:34:48.100 requires super super cold

00:34:49.520 storage at something like

00:34:51.060 minus 90 fahrenheit

00:34:53.100 temperature so it's a

00:34:54.080 little inconvenient um

00:34:56.560 johnson and johnson is

00:34:57.360 working on one that

00:34:57.920 doesn't require that

00:34:58.900 moderna doesn't require as

00:35:00.380 much of the the cold so

00:35:02.160 that everyone's sort of

00:35:03.160 come up with something

00:35:04.220 that's slightly different but

00:35:05.520 let's start with this do

00:35:07.320 you believe that they're

00:35:08.480 going to say be safe and

00:35:09.820 would you take it what do

00:35:11.240 you think jay i mean i

00:35:12.260 think uh the as martin

00:35:13.760 said we we do need to

00:35:14.780 wait for the safety data to

00:35:16.040 to be publicly released so

00:35:17.380 that uh you know folks can

00:35:18.840 scrutinize it carefully i

00:35:20.240 would absolutely tell my

00:35:21.400 mom to take it first because 0.98

00:35:22.880 she's at the highest risk i

00:35:24.340 personally probably would

00:35:25.660 take it um again depending

00:35:27.160 on what the safety data

00:35:28.420 show because i'm my risk is

00:35:30.400 is moderate um but uh for my

00:35:32.400 kids i think that the the

00:35:34.320 the vaccine well again we

00:35:36.140 have to look at the safety

00:35:36.900 data if they're they're

00:35:38.100 not i wouldn't prioritize

00:35:39.460 children for the vaccine

00:35:40.600 it's not like other uh like

00:35:42.780 a disease like the measles

00:35:44.120 where kids uh you know

00:35:45.800 where the vaccine for kids

00:35:46.880 really is is a is it makes

00:35:48.700 much better sense than

00:35:49.960 actually getting measles which

00:35:51.580 would be deadly um here for

00:35:53.660 kids it's much lower risk for

00:35:55.320 to get covid they get much

00:35:56.520 milder disease and die at

00:35:57.720 lower rates more people more

00:35:59.040 kids have died of the flu this

00:36:00.200 year than covid so i think

00:36:01.760 for kids i think it's a

00:36:02.800 completely different

00:36:03.320 question so that we have

00:36:04.920 to look at the safety data

00:36:05.940 but the standard for the

00:36:07.320 safety data that we hold

00:36:08.220 for children uh we should

00:36:09.680 expect a much much much

00:36:11.000 lower serious adverse event

00:36:12.120 risk for children before we

00:36:13.240 require children to have it

00:36:14.820 they haven't tested it on

00:36:16.400 children either yeah exactly

00:36:17.940 i mean it's it's going to

00:36:18.840 be so i think for that i think

00:36:20.260 um some folks have argued

00:36:21.760 that we should make the

00:36:22.560 vaccine mandatory and i think

00:36:24.200 i'm i'm very firmly against

00:36:25.880 that i think here what we

00:36:27.140 have to do is we have to

00:36:27.840 understand who's at risk

00:36:28.920 we shouldn't be asking

00:36:29.840 people i mean mostly when we

00:36:31.440 ask people to take vaccines

00:36:32.400 it's because it's good for

00:36:33.280 you to take the vaccine

00:36:34.120 right we say uh you know

00:36:35.900 you you take a measles

00:36:37.160 mumps rubella for your kids

00:36:38.620 because it's good for your

00:36:39.860 kids to have that shot

00:36:41.060 because measles mumps rubella

00:36:42.500 are terrible diseases if it

00:36:43.860 were if their kids were to

00:36:44.660 get it we shouldn't be

00:36:45.600 asking people to take a

00:36:46.460 vaccine if it's on net bad

00:36:48.200 for them so for my mom 80

00:36:50.600 years old she should take it

00:36:52.220 absolutely i mean assuming

00:36:53.480 that the the the data come

00:36:54.700 out the way i anticipate

00:36:55.800 because it's it's uh it's

00:36:57.740 better for her to have the 0.71

00:36:58.720 vaccine than than uh than

00:37:00.320 covet much better again

00:37:02.160 assuming the data come out

00:37:03.260 the way we anticipate for

00:37:04.320 me it's it's a closer

00:37:05.440 closer thing and for my

00:37:06.800 kids it's not a close thing

00:37:08.020 i i think based on uh based

00:37:09.680 on what i've seen that

00:37:10.760 that's kind of a scary

00:37:11.820 thought because if they

00:37:13.200 make it mandatory and we

00:37:14.700 know that they haven't

00:37:15.520 tested these vaccines on

00:37:16.560 children uh given the

00:37:18.120 ethical concerns of doing

00:37:19.160 that i guess one of the

00:37:20.480 companies is starting to

00:37:21.360 test kids over 12 but the

00:37:23.120 the littles have not been

00:37:24.080 tested at all nor have

00:37:25.260 pregnant women um and if 0.64

00:37:27.740 these schools in particular

00:37:28.980 say it's mandatory as they

00:37:31.580 do with a lot of these

00:37:32.260 vaccines for your kid to

00:37:33.960 get the vaccine before he

00:37:35.000 or she can return parents

00:37:36.680 are in a bit of a pickle

00:37:37.720 there right because we

00:37:38.820 don't have the data to

00:37:39.740 assess is it safe and is

00:37:41.820 it worth it martin should

00:37:42.920 probably answer this

00:37:43.720 because he's he's one of

00:37:44.680 the world's experts on

00:37:45.460 vaccine safety but it's um

00:37:47.020 but it's this is one of

00:37:48.120 these things where the

00:37:49.060 data should drive our

00:37:50.280 decision making and as

00:37:51.600 far as making it manner

00:37:52.400 i've even seen proposals to

00:37:53.620 say look unless you unless

00:37:54.700 you're vaccinated you

00:37:55.560 you should not be able

00:37:56.860 to work uh you know you

00:37:57.920 should like i think those

00:37:59.600 are enormous mistakes uh

00:38:01.620 both from a public health

00:38:02.720 perspective and based on

00:38:03.720 what the what the what i

00:38:05.160 anticipate the vaccine

00:38:05.960 will show in the science

00:38:07.020 and what do you think

00:38:07.820 martin would you get the

00:38:08.660 vaccine and and do you

00:38:09.840 think that that it should

00:38:11.640 be mandatory for anyone's

00:38:12.900 children or otherwise

00:38:13.680 no i don't think it should

00:38:15.000 be mandatory for anyone

00:38:16.480 except possibly for a

00:38:18.300 hospital and nursing

00:38:19.680 home workers uh if they

00:38:21.240 want to work in such a

00:38:22.240 setting i think it's

00:38:23.180 reasonable to have it

00:38:23.820 mandatory for them but not

00:38:25.240 for anybody else and i

00:38:26.400 think it has to do with

00:38:27.460 the trust uh in public

00:38:29.840 health so these lockdowns

00:38:31.820 have created a huge

00:38:32.960 problem that we're going

00:38:33.760 to live with for many

00:38:34.380 years now with the

00:38:35.160 distrust uh between the

00:38:37.300 public and the public

00:38:38.620 health officials and i

00:38:40.220 fully understand the

00:38:41.620 rational it is very

00:38:43.860 rational i think for the

00:38:44.900 public to distrust the

00:38:46.140 public health officials

00:38:46.940 after this public health

00:38:48.460 uh disaster but the other

00:38:51.020 issue is that public health

00:38:52.180 officials do not trust the

00:38:53.780 public and that is a

00:38:55.860 serious problem in public

00:38:57.200 health if you want to do

00:38:59.220 successfully in public

00:39:00.260 health you have to trust

00:39:01.580 the public otherwise you're

00:39:02.860 going to fail and mandating

00:39:05.100 vaccines means you're not

00:39:06.320 trusting the public and then

00:39:07.880 the public is not going to

00:39:09.000 trust the public health

00:39:09.880 officials and there will be

00:39:10.880 less vaccinations there

00:39:12.400 will be more people refusing

00:39:13.320 it we've already seen some of

00:39:15.260 that in the way people are

00:39:16.620 reacting to dr fauci you

00:39:18.160 know it's i think he's

00:39:19.120 universally beloved by most

00:39:20.580 democrats and he's not as

00:39:23.220 beloved by the other half

00:39:24.380 of the country not

00:39:25.020 withstanding the fact that

00:39:25.820 he's one of times people of

00:39:27.220 the year what do you think

00:39:28.640 of dr fauci and how he's

00:39:30.420 handled this he's very

00:39:31.660 against the great

00:39:32.420 barrington project i i know

00:39:33.960 martin so uh dr fauci is a

00:39:37.300 uh it's an esteemed

00:39:38.840 immunologist but in an

00:39:40.540 affective diseases there are

00:39:41.940 different areas of expertise

00:39:43.020 so if you develop a vaccine

00:39:45.540 you have to know about

00:39:46.380 virology immunology for

00:39:47.700 example if you're going to

00:39:48.720 treat patients just to know

00:39:50.500 how to treat people what

00:39:51.660 are the medications to use

00:39:53.060 for infectious diseases

00:39:54.100 but if you want to decide

00:39:56.080 how to deal with a pandemic

00:39:59.040 at the population level then

00:40:00.920 you need to know about

00:40:01.940 infectious disease outbreaks

00:40:03.480 and how they operate in

00:40:05.440 society and how it's spread

00:40:07.020 from person to person sort of

00:40:08.780 the population dynamics and

00:40:10.980 you need to know the

00:40:11.700 infectious disease

00:40:12.500 epidemiology and that's

00:40:14.020 something that i have been

00:40:15.020 studying uh for for many

00:40:16.660 decades but it's not an area

00:40:18.120 of expertise of dr fauci so

00:40:20.500 it's surprising to me that

00:40:22.600 he uh makes such statements

00:40:25.620 on the epidemiology of the

00:40:28.180 pandemic which uh to be

00:40:30.700 honest uh he has made a

00:40:33.000 number of erroneous statements

00:40:34.860 on on this aspect but the so

00:40:38.000 that also that's that reduces

00:40:39.880 the trust in public health

00:40:41.600 again when people hear that

00:40:43.060 and then i realize that that

00:40:44.060 was wrong i mean i think on

00:40:45.200 the on the great barrington

00:40:46.020 declaration in particular i

00:40:47.220 think he's he's uh just

00:40:48.640 doesn't understand it i mean

00:40:50.300 he's he said he's

00:40:51.340 characterized it as a

00:40:52.940 strategy of letting it rip

00:40:54.380 and you can hear from our

00:40:55.420 conversation that is very

00:40:56.460 very far from what we are

00:40:57.620 proposing to do we do not

00:40:59.000 want to let the virus rip

00:41:00.880 through the population that

00:41:01.740 is that that's just a

00:41:02.760 complete mischaracterization

00:41:04.040 and uh i mean in a way it

00:41:05.580 makes me really sad because i

00:41:06.520 do respect him uh as as an

00:41:08.880 immune as a as a uh you know

00:41:10.600 leader in immunology and

00:41:12.180 and uh and uh and i so to

00:41:14.840 hear him mischaracterize these

00:41:16.700 ideas which are are involved

00:41:19.400 protecting vulnerable people as

00:41:21.100 and thinking carefully about the

00:41:23.020 harms of the lockdown um and

00:41:24.680 what that implies for right

00:41:25.800 policy is is just it's i think

00:41:27.620 it's just a great mistake on his

00:41:29.040 part and as martin says it sort

00:41:30.700 of undermines trust in public

00:41:31.960 health actually one thing i've

00:41:33.520 noticed in his thinking is that

00:41:34.740 he he really does seem to be

00:41:36.260 blind to the harms of the

00:41:37.300 lockdown that i mean we've

00:41:38.620 talked about the depression

00:41:39.880 we've talked about uh starvation

00:41:41.700 in in in developing countries

00:41:44.200 as a consequence of the

00:41:45.260 economic damage from the

00:41:46.440 lockdown we talked about we

00:41:47.620 haven't talked so much but

00:41:48.580 but they're also medical

00:41:49.540 damage from people delaying

00:41:51.160 um cancer care because uh

00:41:53.440 people are more scared of

00:41:54.420 covid than cancer i mean i

00:41:55.860 think all of these harms

00:41:57.120 should enter into our policy

00:41:58.780 calculus and uh when dr

00:42:00.480 fauci talks i never hear him

00:42:02.880 thinking about those harms in a

00:42:04.180 way that's meaningful

00:42:04.980 no like what what's what's

00:42:07.200 happened between him and the

00:42:08.660 media is just more shaming

00:42:10.220 of anybody who pushes back

00:42:12.020 against the narrative that

00:42:13.580 the only thing we need to be

00:42:14.920 focused on is curbing the

00:42:17.160 spread of this virus and you

00:42:19.020 know even if that costs

00:42:20.420 millions of people their jobs

00:42:22.660 their businesses their careers

00:42:24.060 the ability to put food on

00:42:25.380 their tables i mean the

00:42:26.700 reports have been totally

00:42:27.780 heartbreaking of what the

00:42:29.980 lockdowns have done when there

00:42:32.460 really are questions you know

00:42:33.780 we were told last last march

00:42:35.820 two weeks to bend the curve

00:42:37.340 and the and the american

00:42:38.480 public did it they did as

00:42:40.460 they were told and now here

00:42:42.180 we are in december and

00:42:43.460 they're saying the same thing

00:42:44.900 the cdc we need to bend the 0.87

00:42:46.480 curve meanwhile people's lives

00:42:48.360 have been ruined they've been

00:42:49.740 ruined and when somebody like

00:42:51.580 you guys comes forward and

00:42:52.640 says here's a possible other

00:42:54.260 approach that takes both

00:42:55.840 problems into consideration what

00:42:57.960 do we see more shame same as

00:42:59.920 they've dumped on scott atlas who

00:43:01.660 i think has been really brave

00:43:02.960 in all of this shame he's

00:43:05.060 been they describe him as

00:43:06.820 disgraced he he's at your 0.64

00:43:08.700 he's at your institution

00:43:10.060 stanford j right i mean what

00:43:11.840 do you think about that what

00:43:13.100 how they've responded to

00:43:14.200 anybody who pushes back

00:43:15.260 against the fauci narrative

00:43:16.240 like you guys like scott i

00:43:18.260 mean i think the the the

00:43:19.520 response of the scientific

00:43:20.780 community i mean in one sense

00:43:22.180 has been amazing as we talked

00:43:23.320 about it for the vaccine but

00:43:24.920 in another sense been utterly

00:43:26.300 shameful uh i think we've seen

00:43:28.500 in a way that i never

00:43:30.000 anticipate seeing you know i've

00:43:31.160 been a i've been a scientist

00:43:33.040 for in medical school for 20

00:43:36.940 years on the faculty i i never

00:43:39.120 thought i would see the day

00:43:40.320 where there would be active

00:43:42.100 measures to try to suppress uh a

00:43:44.980 a a point of view in a

00:43:47.240 scientific discussion um the way

00:43:49.020 that they've done with with dr

00:43:50.140 atlas um and i think uh i think

00:43:53.020 for science we're going to have to

00:43:54.740 think carefully about how really to

00:43:56.320 go forward uh we've there's

00:43:58.040 another uh for the very famous

00:43:59.980 professor at my institution dr

00:44:01.220 johnny unides he's he's made

00:44:02.940 youtube videos uh talking about

00:44:05.140 the pandemic that have been

00:44:06.100 censored removed off you know

00:44:07.740 one of the top scientists in the

00:44:08.880 world thinking about the most

00:44:10.380 uh important problem in public

00:44:12.420 health and those views are

00:44:14.040 censored um you can't have a

00:44:16.220 science when uh people can't talk

00:44:18.720 openly about the disagreements

00:44:20.120 about over over certain over

00:44:22.000 important facts um you just it's

00:44:24.100 not science it's just you know it's

00:44:25.540 just one view uh dominating with

00:44:28.140 absolutely no possibility of being

00:44:30.200 questioned that's not science

00:44:31.660 that's that's something else

00:44:32.760 we're seeing it more and more and

00:44:34.860 not just when it comes to covet um

00:44:36.760 you know when it comes to

00:44:37.640 transgender identification and

00:44:39.760 things like that the the rejection

00:44:41.100 of science in in favor of what's

00:44:44.200 considered to be politically correct is

00:44:45.680 really getting dangerous a couple

00:44:48.420 questions before i let you go they

00:44:49.900 say they don't know whether these

00:44:51.280 vaccines stop the virus from

00:44:54.640 infecting you or whether they just

00:44:57.480 stop you from experiencing the virus

00:45:00.240 you don't get any symptoms and if

00:45:02.160 it's if you have the virus and you're

00:45:04.720 still shedding the virus even though

00:45:06.400 you may not be suffering from the

00:45:07.820 virus then the vaccine they're saying

00:45:09.940 is potentially less uh exciting than

00:45:14.140 than the other way so number one do 0.97

00:45:17.340 you think that uh that means we're

00:45:20.500 farther away from being able to take

00:45:22.760 off these masks and stop socially

00:45:24.840 distancing and number two either way

00:45:27.520 when do you think we're going to be

00:45:28.980 able to take off these masks and stop

00:45:30.820 socially distancing martin so it's

00:45:33.420 true that we don't know those things

00:45:34.840 about the vaccines yet and also they

00:45:37.760 have been evaluated based on some

00:45:40.320 symptoms rather than mortality for

00:45:42.520 example so there's a lot left to learn

00:45:45.200 about these vaccines uh in the in the

00:45:48.260 coming months and years but what is

00:45:50.800 important is as long as there are

00:45:52.600 there's some efficacy and some and good

00:45:55.340 safety they can be used as part of a

00:45:58.540 focused protection strategy where we

00:46:00.900 protect all the people whether it's

00:46:03.420 because we are protecting the old people

00:46:05.220 but when they get vaccinated or whether

00:46:07.480 we protect them by having the nursing

00:46:09.840 home staff and health care personnel

00:46:11.780 being protected now in terms of the

00:46:14.460 social distancing uh we should end

00:46:16.540 immediately uh no matter how good uh

00:46:19.540 the vaccines are uh because of all the

00:46:22.500 damage they're causing on uh on

00:46:25.300 collateral damage they're causing on

00:46:26.980 public health with uh with the falling

00:46:30.260 you know uh shallow immunization rates

00:46:32.980 uh worse cardiovascular disease

00:46:34.980 outcomes worth cancer outcomes worth

00:46:37.400 diabetes care uh and the and the

00:46:40.520 deteriorating mental health we have to do

00:46:43.560 think about that collateral damage and

00:46:45.160 end the lockdowns for children and young

00:46:47.220 people and martin do we do we have any

00:46:49.160 idea how how long the immunity will

00:46:52.260 last and whether this will be something

00:46:54.080 we need to get annually you know like the

00:46:56.060 flu vaccine uh from the vaccine we do

00:46:59.660 not know uh but we should not compare it

00:47:02.560 to the influenza vaccine because the the

00:47:05.540 influenza comes with a new strain each

00:47:07.280 year so there's no reason to believe that

00:47:09.380 coronavirus will uh behave in the same

00:47:12.540 manner but we don't know if if uh if we

00:47:15.140 need for example a booster shot

00:47:16.600 five ten years from now from the vaccine

00:47:18.700 that we don't know the natural immunity

00:47:20.800 we know there's good natural immunity

00:47:22.340 because there's been very few uh

00:47:24.400 reinfections but also we don't know if

00:47:27.000 that lasts uh for a lifetime or probably

00:47:30.260 not but even if it doesn't then when you

00:47:33.780 get it a second time maybe 10 15 20 years

00:47:37.360 down the road you will expect it to be

00:47:39.320 milder because you still have some some uh

00:47:42.860 help from the immune system even though

00:47:44.800 you might still get it a second time

00:47:46.180 so just to round back exit question for

00:47:48.380 both of you what's your prediction on when

00:47:50.920 we get back to normal to something

00:47:53.560 resembling very closely normal jay

00:47:57.980 i mean i think if we use the vaccine

00:48:00.880 correctly we could get back to normal

00:48:02.620 within two months right so if we have

00:48:04.920 let's say uh 50 million people vaccinated

00:48:08.120 uh who are at the highest risk at that

00:48:11.060 point we can open society up right because

00:48:13.260 the and and because the logic is the

00:48:15.820 harms in the lockdown to the rest of

00:48:17.560 society is worse than the disease um and

00:48:19.840 the people who are vaccinated are

00:48:21.480 protected i think we could get back to

00:48:22.980 normal two months if we if we continue

00:48:24.780 to follow this policy we're currently

00:48:26.560 following a lockdown after lockdown after

00:48:28.900 lockdown we will be doing this for

00:48:30.980 another year or two

00:48:32.040 i agree with that schools should open

00:48:34.600 immediately but then uh after the older

00:48:37.700 people have been vaccinated

00:48:39.140 and they're caretakers then the older

00:48:42.300 people can also go back to normal

00:48:43.980 hopefully in about a couple of months

00:48:45.740 i wonder it's one of the questions that

00:48:48.440 we don't have an answer to but how the

00:48:50.060 presidential election is gonna play in

00:48:52.140 here if trump had

00:48:53.280 one you know when when the when the race

00:48:55.420 was still in front of us the election

00:48:56.560 was still in front of us

00:48:57.540 um there was definitely a disincentive for

00:49:00.160 some of these democratic governors to

00:49:02.040 ease up on on the fear factor and now

00:49:06.780 that it's looks like it's biden

00:49:08.260 um maybe they will maybe they'll get

00:49:10.720 closer to reality and listen to guys

00:49:12.460 like you about the damaging effect of

00:49:14.060 these lockdowns and finding a way

00:49:15.900 forward

00:49:16.240 uh i don't know they may be too addicted

00:49:18.820 to the porn

00:49:19.400 um listen i really appreciate your

00:49:23.300 honesty and your scientific approach

00:49:25.160 it's it's been important for people like

00:49:27.020 me who are genuine truth seekers and not

00:49:28.940 trying to you know maneuver anything

00:49:31.080 with an agenda on this i really just

00:49:33.120 want to know the truth

00:49:33.820 so thank you for your courage in the

00:49:36.180 face of a lot of pushback

00:49:37.200 i appreciate it thank you for having

00:49:38.980 us me

00:49:39.340 our thanks to jay and martin a lot of

00:49:42.220 brain power on the show today up next

00:49:44.240 dr david dowdy joins us he's from

00:49:46.240 johns hopkins he has a bit of a

00:49:47.580 different take but you'll find it

00:49:48.960 interesting where they overlap and

00:49:50.880 agree we got you covered on covid and

00:49:53.080 what's about to come but first want to

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00:51:48.440 dr dowdy we're going to bring to you a

00:51:50.380 feature that we call you can't say that

00:51:52.860 and you know why because we live in

00:51:54.540 america now where everything must be

00:51:56.800 offensive no one as it turns out is

00:51:59.780 immune from being silenced by the

00:52:01.880 wokesters on the far left not even

00:52:03.800 liberal icon barack obama yes it's true

00:52:07.680 so in a recent snapchat interview on his

00:52:09.760 endless book tour uh the former

00:52:11.740 president was asked about the very

00:52:13.640 unpopular policy of quote defunding the

00:52:16.900 police right which even al sharpton has

00:52:18.960 ripped as making no sense and even

00:52:20.840 places like minneapolis that actually

00:52:22.200 tried to enact it uh promptly had to

00:52:24.080 reverse their policies because a lot of

00:52:25.900 people are getting hurt right but some

00:52:28.240 people refuse to listen nonetheless

00:52:30.060 here's what barack obama had to say

00:52:31.740 about it you can use a snappy slogan

00:52:33.980 like defund the police but you know

00:52:36.560 you've lost a big audience the minute

00:52:38.800 you say it which makes it a lot less

00:52:40.540 likely that you're actually going to

00:52:41.680 get the changes you want done the key

00:52:43.460 is deciding do you want to actually get

00:52:45.500 something done or do you want to feel

00:52:47.680 good among the people you already agree

00:52:49.580 with sounds pretty accurate to me uh but

00:52:51.840 for the woke left this is unacceptable

00:52:53.360 the squad you know the squad they

00:52:56.040 started tweeting about it and then the

00:52:57.400 media of course jumped in with their

00:52:58.920 pushback the most ridiculous had to be

00:53:01.240 from jezebel which you could say pretty

00:53:02.800 much every day about jezebel and their

00:53:04.720 reaction everything which actually wrote

00:53:06.640 a column titled hey obama some people

00:53:09.640 actually do want to defund the police

00:53:11.580 but it was their tweet about the story

00:53:12.940 that was the best they they actually

00:53:14.340 tweeted out the following now we're

00:53:16.040 supposed to take unsolicited slogan

00:53:18.180 edits from a man whose most memorable

00:53:20.780 presidential campaign slogans were the

00:53:23.040 wildly creative zingers change and yes we

00:53:26.680 can sure okay so the jezebel folks know

00:53:29.960 better than obama what kind of slogans

00:53:32.280 work in motivating the american people

00:53:34.800 right the most popular democratic politician

00:53:36.660 in decades he won the presidency twice by

00:53:39.680 wide margins but jezebel knows better and

00:53:43.100 they're they're mad they mad at barack

00:53:45.720 obama let's see how that works out so

00:53:48.280 barack obama who dared to say defund the

00:53:50.060 police is a stupid slogan okay that's my

00:53:52.500 editorializing but he did say it was

00:53:53.820 unpopular it was self-defeating um just

00:53:56.600 so you know barack obama you can't say

00:53:58.880 that oh wait this is america

00:54:01.340 dr david dowdy thank you so much for being

00:54:07.660 here okay so let's talk about this notion

00:54:10.980 what what the great barrington doctors are

00:54:12.720 saying right now is that we they're not

00:54:16.320 really pushing exactly for herd immunity

00:54:17.980 but what they're saying is what we don't

00:54:19.420 want is another lockdown the the costs are

00:54:22.140 too high and the benefits are too low and

00:54:26.000 that what we really need to focus on

00:54:27.560 including over the next six months as the

00:54:29.300 vaccine rolls out is protecting the elderly

00:54:32.120 the first you know responders frontline

00:54:34.620 workers and people who are immunocompromised

00:54:37.480 in some way and that the rest of us people

00:54:39.620 under the age of 60 people who are well

00:54:42.060 should go about living our lives the way

00:54:44.860 we want uh and that the combination of

00:54:48.520 those two things as we vaccinate the people

00:54:51.020 who are most at risk plus the rest of us

00:54:52.540 just out there living our lives is what

00:54:54.980 will give us true herd immunity in the

00:54:56.780 most helpful and healthy way what do you

00:55:00.480 think well uh thanks again for for having

00:55:02.960 me megan and i think this is a great

00:55:04.860 discussion um i i think that many of us are

00:55:08.700 in agreement with the the idea that what we

00:55:12.440 don't want are more lockdowns and also that

00:55:16.400 the people most in need of protection are

00:55:19.500 those at the greatest risk of um of getting

00:55:22.660 very sick and and dying of this disease

00:55:25.120 including um the elderly and those with

00:55:28.040 other um immunocompromising conditions so i think

00:55:31.520 there's no disagreement there um i think that

00:55:35.360 that the one point of of disagreement is is

00:55:38.600 how to to best go about protecting those that

00:55:43.600 are the most vulnerable um and i would argue

00:55:48.580 that it's important to keep the transmission

00:55:52.580 levels of this virus um at a manageable level um in

00:55:57.800 order to prevent transmission to those who are

00:56:01.880 the most vulnerable and so i i'd be a little

00:56:05.020 concerned about the um the idea of of just

00:56:09.560 letting everyone else go back to to life as

00:56:12.060 normal i don't think we want to to go back to

00:56:15.400 lockdowns um i think that that we can be smart

00:56:18.780 about how we uh manage this disease but um but if we

00:56:23.680 just let transmission go haywire over the next few

00:56:27.380 months until we have a vaccine that's widely

00:56:30.080 distributed uh i worry that that's also going to

00:56:34.400 increase the risk to uh to those at greatest risk of

00:56:37.600 uh of death and um and long-term consequences

00:56:40.560 but what about if if we have a situation where the

00:56:43.740 vaccine's beating being doled out to first responders

00:56:46.860 healthcare workers and elderly you know beginning in nursing homes and

00:56:50.560 then so on from there over december january let's hope

00:56:54.940 that's let's hope that the timeline is that short

00:56:57.780 let's hope um then then doesn't it make some sense for the rest of us you know

00:57:02.200 like for for example i'm 50 now as of a couple weeks ago

00:57:06.320 and i'm healthy i don't have any of these underlying conditions i don't feel

00:57:10.160 threatened by this disease i know that it it can potentially

00:57:13.040 kill people but for people in my age group my risk group

00:57:16.160 you have a 99.95 chance of surviving it and so i i don't know like i would feel

00:57:23.160 comfortable going out if if maybe what's what's wrong with having

00:57:26.580 people like me people like you out there wearing our masks even

00:57:29.520 uh but not but but we're opening the schools and we're opening the restaurants

00:57:33.320 we're opening the bars at full capacity and

00:57:35.360 you know we wash our hands still it's not like we're trying to get it

00:57:37.940 but what's wrong with doing that while the most vulnerable are getting

00:57:41.100 vaccinated right so i think this is a great

00:57:44.040 question and and this is really uh i think the the area of

00:57:47.960 of debate and and i think that there are many reasonable

00:57:51.540 um considerations and and perspectives on this

00:57:55.480 my personal perspective is that um if you are going to a bar or a

00:58:03.380 restaurant that's at full capacity even if you're you're wearing a mask

00:58:07.560 you're coming into contact with 50 100 other people in a time span of maybe an

00:58:15.780 hour yes you're wearing a mask yes there's going to be some distance

00:58:18.300 but but that's a lot of people one of those people is going to have

00:58:22.960 uh an elderly parent living with them in their home 0.99

00:58:26.600 or is going to be working at a uh at a long-term care facility

00:58:30.420 and and the risk to to let's say reasonably healthy 70 year olds

00:58:37.820 is not zero right and so it's it's one of these things where

00:58:42.740 the more you're contacting other people the the more there is a risk of

00:58:47.260 transmission to someone who's then going to contact someone else

00:58:51.220 um if if everyone were living in in isolation and only had

00:58:56.720 two or three people that they were contacting this wouldn't be

00:59:00.040 an issue but we know that that's not how humans interact and so

00:59:03.700 but let me ask you about that so yeah i get i get that point so but

00:59:07.520 isn't that responsibility so i have a mom who's going to be 80 in july so if my mom's

00:59:12.420 staying with me then i no question i shouldn't be doing

00:59:15.580 that i shouldn't be going to the bar and you know throwing caution to the wind i

00:59:19.900 would behave much much differently if she were in my apartment 1.00

00:59:22.460 so why can't the onus be on people as individuals like you know if you're

00:59:27.300 going to be exposed to somebody who's compromised in that way

00:59:30.180 but the rest of us who aren't why can't we be out there like why we're already

00:59:35.320 asking people to be responsible and support the community in the ways that

00:59:39.480 make sense why can't we especially focus in on people who live with a

00:59:43.380 vulnerable person and say you you're basically the same as an old person so

00:59:48.380 you got to behave accordingly and the rest of you are good

00:59:50.400 so first of all i i guess i don't like the idea

00:59:55.040 of um putting the onus specifically on other

00:59:59.920 people because then what happens is that those

01:00:02.780 people uh begin to feel like uh you know shamed for what they're doing

01:00:09.240 and and often when people feel shamed for what they're doing

01:00:12.960 they uh they then find ways around it or they don't

01:00:17.860 they won't go and get tested etc also we don't know everyone's individual

01:00:23.240 situation so let's say you know you are um you have your

01:00:27.960 your parents uh your 80 year old parent living with you at home

01:00:31.040 but you also have a three-year-old that you have to

01:00:35.800 support and you work in a restaurant and if you lose your job

01:00:40.120 then um then you're going to be out of uh out of work and you're going to be

01:00:44.760 evicted from your from your home right and so everyone's situation is unique

01:00:49.200 and i worry about the idea of let's just put the onus on

01:00:52.760 on all individuals um to to do the right thing because

01:00:57.000 they may have very valid reasons for for not doing that and it's not just that

01:01:02.800 they are being careless and and not uh

01:01:06.360 compassionate with their parents yeah but the alternative is to put the onus on

01:01:10.160 everyone to stay at home and avoid their work in a way that doesn't make sense

01:01:15.360 either you know if i can go out i'm able-bodied and i'm at very low risk

01:01:19.140 and i can help contribute to keeping the economy open and spending my money at

01:01:22.760 restaurants that need it why shouldn't i do that because

01:01:26.260 there's right now we're damaging so many people who

01:01:31.520 don't need to be damaged in order to protect this relatively small group

01:01:37.360 so we've gotten to the point where it's like people are starting to divide

01:01:40.960 defy the orders there's they're sick of it they they bent the curve

01:01:44.620 back in march and now you're seeing open defiance you know we saw a restaurant

01:01:48.540 here in staten island say we're we we're not doing it we're not closing

01:01:53.380 we're opening our in our in-house dining and the sheriffs came and arrested them

01:01:57.080 and people cheered they cheered the owners saying go for it you know they've

01:02:00.980 had it so aren't we at the point now where we have to be realistic and say

01:02:04.760 all right it's not ideal that if you live with an elderly person you're going 0.99

01:02:09.320 to have to make more sacrifices than somebody who doesn't

01:02:11.840 but we need an interim measure because the full lockdown situation

01:02:15.420 or anything close to it is not going to be stomached by the american people

01:02:19.160 well so i think i think that um i'm in agreement that we need

01:02:25.100 a middle ground right so um i i would argue that that you're

01:02:30.500 absolutely right we should not be going back to to full lockdowns and and the

01:02:34.240 more we try to push full lockdowns on people the more as you say people are

01:02:39.080 going to to openly defy that right but i also

01:02:42.800 think that going completely in the opposite direction

01:02:46.120 of um just let let everyone do what they want

01:02:50.460 is is probably not the wisest decision either

01:02:53.700 i think that there are some risks that people can can still tolerate right so for

01:02:59.080 example you mentioned wearing a mask as you as you go out right that that's

01:03:03.680 something that i think many people can do maintaining some level of of distance i

01:03:08.340 think again is something that some people many people can do

01:03:11.180 keeping um indoor gatherings to a limited capacity is is i think something that

01:03:17.340 that people are in general able to do especially for for just a few more months

01:03:22.520 until we have a vaccine that can be widely distributed you know my sense is

01:03:27.320 we've come this far we've we've made it eight months into this um pandemic already

01:03:33.780 and we're just a couple of months from the finish line

01:03:36.260 why can't we continue to to do some of these sensible measures to to keep things

01:03:42.240 at a at a reasonable level of transmission

01:03:45.160 i did ask that question you know like with the end in sight

01:03:48.480 you know can we why shouldn't we just lock down or something close to that for

01:03:53.640 the next few months and their point was there it's they didn't use this word but

01:03:58.420 it's it's insensitive to the amount of damage that's being done to people as a

01:04:02.040 result of the lockdown that you know adults are dying from cancer and from heart

01:04:07.500 disease because they're not going into hospitals because they're afraid of this

01:04:10.800 that um they they said there'll be 30 million people who will be at risk of starvation this

01:04:17.920 year 80 million children die of poverty worldwide in the united states skipping medical treatments

01:04:22.920 uh that will result result in higher death rates and cancer for women and men so on they

01:04:27.340 they're basically saying it's fine to sit back and say oh sure we've got six more months but

01:04:31.360 people are going to die as a result of these lockdowns and they need to be factored in

01:04:35.140 yeah i i would uh i would counter first again by re-emphasizing that no one is is talking about

01:04:42.560 lockdowns again i i don't think i don't i think that putting people in full lockdown mode again for

01:04:49.000 for two or three months is is not realistic people will not accept it and and we know how to do things

01:04:54.860 smarter than than just fully locking down but i pretty close in la i think pretty close

01:05:00.100 well um you know i don't i don't live in la so i don't want to uh to speak to that but i i doubt

01:05:08.440 that if if that's where it's going it's going to last for two months you're going to see as you've

01:05:13.000 been describing lots of open defiance of of that right um but i i do think that um uh to my mind

01:05:24.760 the the ultimate goal here is to minimize the number of people who are getting not only uh sick

01:05:35.000 and dying of covid but also sick and dying of of all of these other conditions as um as the the

01:05:42.580 previous interviews have have pointed out i think that those all all should count right and so we but

01:05:48.820 i think we need to find again a bit of a middle ground where we we don't let um deaths from covid

01:05:56.820 run rampant over the next um you know the next two three four five months until we we have a vaccine

01:06:05.100 what do you think about schools because their their point was elementary middle high school college

01:06:11.820 they should be open the risk is incredibly low and the damage to children in not being with their

01:06:18.300 peers is high i personally would not in most cases disagree with that i think that in most cases

01:06:25.860 it it the the harms done by um by keeping schools closed especially elementary and and middle schools

01:06:36.880 closed is um is quite substantial right and and that may be a risk worth undertaking when we start to talk

01:06:45.980 about um large high schools and and colleges uh i think the the trade-offs are are something we we need to

01:06:55.620 measure right because we're talking about uh gatherings of of hundreds of people um who uh who in in single

01:07:05.840 lecture halls for example that may not be the smartest decision and we may be able to find ways to to get

01:07:11.840 education to to those people um in ways that doesn't require the same large gathering high risk setting

01:07:19.780 but in general i i think that opening schools should absolutely be on the table

01:07:24.400 the um pushback they've gotten has been pretty severe you know i saw them come out with their

01:07:32.760 declaration a couple months ago and i thought well this is interesting at least they're they're trying to

01:07:37.040 find an alternative solution to a really tough problem but predictably they they just got attacked

01:07:43.180 as hacks i mean these guys are they're very well respected at stanford and oxford and harvard um

01:07:50.680 in the same way i've seen scott atlas just get completely dragged i mean just completely dragged in a way

01:07:56.040 that's been devastating to his reputation what do you think of these doctors and what's what's happened

01:08:02.640 the nature of the pushback against them so i um again i think i i would take a bit of a a middle

01:08:11.600 ground approach here i i would caution against saying that just because someone is from harvard

01:08:17.560 or stanford or johns hopkins that that makes them uh uh smart and um and someone who who knows

01:08:24.720 everything about a particular topic but i i do agree that that the pushback has been quite severe

01:08:31.760 um and and and i personally would like to see um the the scientific world be one in which

01:08:40.580 open debate is encouraged rather than discouraged um and and so i i don't necessarily agree with

01:08:51.700 everything that um that the authors of the great barrington declaration have said but i i do feel that

01:08:59.480 um people should be um able and and willing to to voice their opinions and to to debate those opinions

01:09:08.700 in a respectful fashion right um but i would like it to be about individual people's opinions not just

01:09:16.140 saying well this person is from such and such university therefore they're an expert on the

01:09:20.760 topic and that goes for me too to be honest right well johns hopkins is pretty good too um you know

01:09:28.300 to me it's been such an obvious contrast with the you know the lionization of dr fauci who on the left

01:09:35.260 you know he can do no wrong he's the guy's going to be people magazine's man of the year one of the

01:09:39.200 people of the year and you know i they're they had some issues with dr fauci being too singularly

01:09:46.700 focused on one avenue of harm and not any of the others you know this has been a debate we've been

01:09:52.160 having in the country for eight nine months now like it can't all be about stopping the virus there

01:09:57.720 are other mental health and physical health consequences to the decisions we're implementing

01:10:02.920 in fighting the virus that matter too and and i agree i i mean i personally again am a fan of dr

01:10:10.340 fauci and i think he's done a lot to to merit the uh respect that he's been given but but i don't think

01:10:17.100 any one person's take on uh on this virus um on this pandemic is going to be perfect at all times

01:10:23.880 and and i i would push back against anyone who says that um just because dr fauci says something

01:10:30.680 that that we should follow that as well i i also agree that we need to be considering this as a

01:10:37.180 multi-faceted pandemic this is not just about reducing transmission it's about um minimizing

01:10:43.880 other harms harms harms to to mental health harms to the economy harms to people's well-being and and

01:10:51.800 harms to uh to deaths from from other conditions i think in general the best approach is a middle

01:11:00.200 ground where we do some reasonable things to uh to stop transmission and and keep it at a manageable

01:11:07.600 level but without going so far that um that it's something that the majority of people can't

01:11:14.440 tolerate on the question that you mentioned of testing well we were talking about shame and how

01:11:19.640 we don't want shame attaching to individuals like you live with an elderly person and i saw you at the

01:11:24.600 bar um they were also raising that same issue because you know how it is it's there still is weirdly

01:11:31.160 some element of shame attached to getting the virus it's weird it's a damn virus people get it like

01:11:37.180 same with the blue we we never before started blaming people or looking at them like they've

01:11:43.840 gotten the plague and their point was one of the points they raised was um why does this have to be

01:11:50.640 a part of public health reporting what should we be able to get private tests done and then trust

01:11:56.560 individuals to make good choices to protect themselves and others so i again i agree i do not

01:12:03.580 think that that getting this virus getting this disease should be a point of shame just like i also

01:12:09.780 feel like um being a a public health worker in these hot spots um should not be a point of shame which

01:12:17.620 sometimes it has become as well i i feel like there's there's a lot of shame going around and and i i wish

01:12:23.200 we could reduce it on on all sides um i i do think that we need um data on where um the virus is spreading

01:12:35.120 where uh disease levels are the highest so that we can plan our response uh it does i think make sense

01:12:43.320 to be more strict in places where there is more transmission and less strict as transmission goes down

01:12:51.000 but i don't think that we need to to have people's private information attached to that right so

01:12:57.860 you don't need my like my individual name and address attached to my positive result if i test

01:13:06.100 positive for covid but it does help to know what general area i'm in right and i think that again we

01:13:13.220 can find a a middle ground where we we have enough data to plan a an appropriately targeted response to

01:13:20.760 areas where the the virus is spreading without compromising people's individual information

01:13:25.940 i was talking to a woman who had just gotten back from israel this is two months ago and uh she said

01:13:32.560 they tested her or that you know she arrived and she had to quarantine for two weeks and by the way

01:13:37.240 just for folks at home now the cdc is saying you can quarantine for just seven days if you test

01:13:42.000 negative and you're asymptomatic um seven days from the day you were exposed so that's good uh but

01:13:47.640 anyway so she had to quarantine for 14 days and she said she looked out the window and there was

01:13:54.080 literally a little drone there checking on her to make sure she was still in the house that's one

01:14:00.540 person's eyewitness account but i can tell you i mean if that kind of thing happened here people

01:14:04.280 will lose their minds um they don't want any more big tech or big government pushing them around

01:14:09.220 so let's talk about the vaccines which i do think are miraculous i'm very excited about these

01:14:14.720 things i feel like i would take one um i don't know i would take one i'd be one of the first ones

01:14:19.580 if they wanted me to be because i don't they don't seem to be telegraphing caution as much as they do

01:14:25.020 with some other vaccines you know like they seem to be saying very little side effects maybe a headache

01:14:29.640 maybe some malaise um but only in 15 of the people and you know it's 95 effective so why wouldn't

01:14:36.600 you what do you think i i mean i agree i i think that that the data coming out on these vaccines

01:14:43.480 so far has been very promising um that uh efficacy seems very high side effect levels so far seem

01:14:50.980 very low admittedly it's it's a relatively small sample size um and we still have to get these these

01:14:56.700 vaccines manufactured and distributed to the to the population but but um i would absolutely take a

01:15:03.740 vaccine so when do we get back to normal realistically when when are we going to be able to walk around

01:15:10.180 without masks and go into fully stocked grocery stores and restaurants and bars and even broadway

01:15:17.980 theaters so again i i suspect that the return to to normal is going to be a gradual one right i don't

01:15:25.760 think that that it's going to be that we wake up one day and suddenly everything is back to normal and

01:15:31.140 there are some things that probably are are not not ever going to change because of the way that that

01:15:35.620 we have have reacted to to this pandemic um but i i think that um as we get the uh first the highest

01:15:45.720 risk individuals vaccinated um and then uh larger swaths of the of the population we're going to see

01:15:54.040 the ability to to slowly scale back on on restrictions that have been placed on us i'm i'm gonna say that

01:16:01.500 probably by um by the spring there are going to be um many fewer uh restrictions on our on our lives

01:16:11.320 and and hopefully by mid to late next year things are going to be close to um to normal you know but

01:16:22.460 here's the question i have though since they don't know whether the vaccine actually eliminates the

01:16:29.340 disease within you or just stops you from getting any symptoms of a disease that is inside of you a

01:16:35.340 virus that's inside of you that you could still shed onto other people that that's a bummer because

01:16:40.780 if it gets rid of the virus then i can take off my mask then i'm gonna run around and say

01:16:46.560 i i have the immunity i got the i got the shot i i can't spread it to you i'm 95 immune which is good

01:16:53.680 enough for me but if i could still be shedding it people are going to tell me i got to keep the damn 0.87

01:16:58.780 mask on forever until we truly have herd immunity in the country am i right well so i think that

01:17:05.500 that you're right to to be cautious about this right um because we we don't know as you say whether

01:17:11.640 whether vaccines are going to be um preventing uh disease or just um uh or transmission or just the

01:17:20.180 disease um but i um i think that we will be able to watch the the numbers of cases and deaths

01:17:28.780 that are occurring in this country and as those go down hopefully with the vaccine uh we'll be able

01:17:35.500 to to manage our response accordingly right so even if these these vaccines let's let's say in an

01:17:41.960 optimistic scenario right uh we we might not know for a long time if they're able to block transmission

01:17:47.500 but in nine months from now if if levels of of covid cases and deaths are very very low i don't think

01:17:55.560 there's going to be a lot of um of push to to keep um restaurants at limited capacity or or you know

01:18:04.920 enforce mask wearing you know it's going to depend on on how much um disease we're seeing in in the

01:18:12.260 country at any given time do you think immunity is better like herd immunity for the community is it

01:18:17.940 better if it is not just from a vaccine if there's a a greater proportion in there of people who have

01:18:25.080 had it that is a question that that i don't think we're going to be able to answer for a while there

01:18:32.120 are some diseases where having the infection is a better source of immunity there are others where

01:18:39.560 the vaccine actually does better than than the the original infection and so so i don't think that

01:18:44.660 that we're we're going to know that for this disease for a while um and i think that we should

01:18:49.820 as you were suggesting behave cautiously uh until we see levels of um disease transmission death uh

01:18:59.400 really start to go down so another question moderna and pfizer seem to have a different vaccine than

01:19:05.040 astrazeneca if they work they're the first two work differently than the third one and it has to do

01:19:10.680 with rna i don't know my eyes gleased over i just got they're different do you think so far that

01:19:16.360 would you rather take one or the other do you think there's it's an important difference as of right now

01:19:23.940 um i i don't think that there is strong enough um data to suggest that that one vaccine is is much

01:19:32.940 better than the other right so um it looks like these vaccines are effective we're not going to know

01:19:38.720 their their long-term effectiveness for for quite a while right um but short term they they all seem

01:19:46.740 to be quite effective the the differences have more to do with the the immune response um and also

01:19:54.720 uh things like do they need to be kept at colder temperatures etc so distributional um concerns um then

01:20:03.140 then they do um any anything that i think the average person should be concerned about in trying

01:20:10.060 to choose between these vaccines i think if you have the opportunity to take a vaccine i would take

01:20:14.340 it me too i would too i mean i go by what my doctor says and he'll he'll tell me straight up like this is

01:20:20.000 this is not good don't be on the first line he's like we're good he doesn't even think he wasn't

01:20:24.480 anticipating even months ago that there would be problems with this and he's an infectious disease doctor

01:20:29.840 um there there's some of the warnings about traveling over the holiday season are insane

01:20:35.960 so this is right before thanksgiving but the the messages stand the fear factor stands uh salt lake

01:20:43.800 county health department warned um thanksgiving leftovers won't taste as good if you're on a

01:20:49.660 ventilator okay in mississippi the official's uh message reads as follows we we don't really want to

01:20:59.420 see mamaw at thanksgiving and bury her by christmas holy moly so um i don't know i am going to

01:21:09.420 travel over christmas but boy they sure are trying to scare us into not doing that what are your thoughts

01:21:15.480 on it yeah i think my thoughts are are that that travel does pose a risk um and i think it's important

01:21:21.900 for people to be aware of that risk uh i don't think that scare and and shame tactics are generally

01:21:28.560 the right way to get that uh that message out i would um personally prefer to see messaging that

01:21:35.820 that describes to people um how how much of a risk it is to um to to drive how much of an additional

01:21:44.160 risk it might be to to fly or take public transportation um but but without trying to to scare people

01:21:51.020 uh with all of these um situations everyone's situation is unique and i think the most important

01:21:58.220 thing is to get the information out to people for people to recognize that there are risks associated

01:22:03.120 with with these activities but not to um to to scare people all right last question along the lines of

01:22:11.720 what you're saying people don't like to be ordered what to do by our government it's not in the american dna

01:22:16.680 to to behave like that although i think people have been pretty darn good during during the covid

01:22:23.000 period uh with obviously some exceptions but overall i think the public's been doing a great job

01:22:27.440 um so what about making these vaccines mandatory there's there's a big difference of opinion on whether

01:22:36.220 that makes sense or not i i was just talking with the other guys about does it make sense for

01:22:41.640 school children when the vaccine has not been tested on school children you know how they mandate

01:22:45.540 that we get them vaccinated vaccinated for other things so what what is your thought on children

01:22:51.120 and otherwise should the vaccine be mandatory yeah and first of all i'd like to echo your your comment

01:22:56.980 that i think that the american public deserves some credit for what they've done and i think again this

01:23:01.760 this goes back to the we've made it this far we've done a lot we've we've sacrificed a lot to get to

01:23:07.000 this point if we can make it just a few more months hopefully things are going to get better with

01:23:11.180 these vaccines as far as making vaccines mandatory i think that it is reasonable for individual

01:23:18.440 businesses or um or venues or say nursing homes etc to to make this mandatory for their populations

01:23:27.180 i would be concerned about a broad like federal mandate that uh that everyone gets this vaccine i think

01:23:36.680 that the school children are a challenging situation because we we do mandate that that kids get a series

01:23:44.680 of vaccines and and there's no reason to think that this vaccine should be very different from many of

01:23:49.680 those other vaccines um but as you say i think we would want to to see enough data coming out that this

01:23:57.300 is going to be safe and effective in school children before we could um roll out that kind of a mandate so

01:24:03.960 i i would say it's it's reasonable for for individual businesses institutions to to require it if they

01:24:11.980 think that that's that's appropriate for for their population i'd be concerned about uh a broad

01:24:20.000 government mandate that that everyone has to take this vaccine all right i actually do have one more

01:24:25.100 question which is as a doctor what do you think it says about our country um our determination our work

01:24:33.280 ethic our brilliance that we we've done it we appear to have done it to have come up with vaccines

01:24:39.780 to have come up with vaccines in record time um 95 effective low rate of side effects to me as a lay

01:24:50.140 person i want to stand up and cheer these guys and just say bravo it makes me makes me proud to be an

01:24:56.420 american and makes me proud of our companies and our work ethic and our just our our drive to get the

01:25:01.820 important things done but you're the doctor how do you feel no i i mean in general i would agree i think

01:25:08.640 that um that it's quite an accomplishment that that we've been able to get um what appear to be

01:25:15.360 safe and effective vaccines um out um uh in in this amount of time it's never been done before

01:25:23.340 uh i think that um people in our country have given up a lot to get us to to where we are and and we have

01:25:32.320 saved you know hundreds of thousands of lives by doing what we have done and i think the message is

01:25:39.500 we're not quite there yet we still have a few more months to go but if we're able to keep this up

01:25:45.820 um i think we we can look back on this with uh with a measure of pride and accomplishment and i i would

01:25:51.400 like to see more positive messaging like that as opposed to just the um the the shame and fear

01:25:58.880 sorts of uh messages that we've been talking about before i think people should be proud i'm feeling it

01:26:04.600 uh i think it's a it's it is miraculous i'm i'm proud of the country and i'm i'm proud of these

01:26:09.620 scientists who really had to do nose to the grindstone to come up with this i what i what i read was that

01:26:14.680 they they had it really soon in this whole process but they've had to you know make sure

01:26:20.460 it's safe for all these months thereafter so apparently it wasn't as complicated a formula as

01:26:25.740 as people feared initially it's just they of course in something like this they got to test

01:26:30.040 it and retest it and make sure all the little mice lived after after the dosages and and people

01:26:37.760 have really been working over time you know like people have been giving their all to to make this

01:26:43.720 happen and and i i think they they deserve mention as heroes you know yeah and the people who who have

01:26:50.160 you know subjected themselves to the testing because it hasn't just been a little the little lab mice

01:26:54.160 um anyway thank you so much for your perspective on it and uh for being part of the good fight

01:26:59.580 thanks megan i appreciate it our thanks to all the doctors who helped us understand these issues

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The Megyn Kelly Show - December 07, 2020

COVID Truth on Lockdowns, Vaccines and Schools, with the Great Barrington Declaration Doctors ｜ Ep. 34

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