The Megyn Kelly Show - Crime Friday： Frozen Kansas City Chiefs Fans, and Fani Willis Admits Affair, with Arthur Aidala, Mark Eiglarsh, and Charlie Condon

00:00:00.560 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:12.440 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show and happy Crime Friday.

00:00:18.280 Later we're going to get into what happened in South Carolina with Alec Murdoch's attempt to get a retrial.

00:00:23.740 What drama in that case this week?

00:00:25.700 And I'll be joined by the former Attorney General down there. He's been following the case very closely.

00:00:31.580 But we start with two Kelly's Court favorites, the OGs on the docket today.

00:00:37.140 Have you heard about the Kansas City Chiefs fans found frozen outside of their friend's house?

00:00:43.720 They were out there for two days and the guy didn't notice.

00:00:47.460 So he says, big developments in that case this morning.

00:00:50.540 Plus, the latest on the Michelle Traconis trial in Connecticut.

00:00:54.560 She's the alleged affair partner of the husband who was accused of murdering his wife, Jennifer Doulos, after he was charged.

00:01:02.560 He died by suicide.

00:01:04.560 Now the affair partner is on trial for helping him, accused of disposing of Jennifer's belongings.

00:01:11.740 Developments on that trial as well, as many, many more.

00:01:14.340 We're going to get to some great cases today.

00:01:15.640 Arthur Eidala is a partner at Eidala Bertuna and Kamens and host of the Arthur Eidala Power Hour.

00:01:25.020 And Mark Eiglarsh is a defense attorney at Eiglarsh Law, which you can find at speaktomark.com.

00:01:31.620 Hey, guys, I didn't know about speaktomark.com.

00:01:34.180 That's a good idea, Mark.

00:01:35.100 What can they do?

00:01:36.420 What do they do at speaktomark.com?

00:01:39.060 Oh, they get to speak with Mark.

00:01:40.380 Anytime you want to speak to Mark, Megan, you just call speaktomark.com and I'll answer.

00:01:45.880 That's amazing.

00:01:46.700 I'm looking at Mark.

00:01:48.020 Mark, you look so like healthy and tan.

00:01:50.200 I look like old pasty.

00:01:52.920 It's Manhattan living versus Florida living, I guess.

00:01:56.520 It's pickleball, it's no sugar, and it's training for a half marathon.

00:02:00.800 Those are the things that keep me spiritually fit.

00:02:03.520 Can I ask you, is it hard to go no sugar?

00:02:05.460 I would like to go no sugar, but I really like my sugar.

00:02:08.700 Then have it.

00:02:09.500 I mean, life is short, Megan, but I-

00:02:11.820 Choose happiness, Megan.

00:02:12.960 Choose happiness.

00:02:14.540 That's it.

00:02:15.120 Thank you, Arthur, my guru.

00:02:16.940 Yes.

00:02:17.820 All right.

00:02:18.380 Well, I managed to swear off the French fries.

00:02:20.860 I don't think I can get rid of the ice cream, too.

00:02:22.240 It's too important to me.

00:02:23.780 Okay.

00:02:25.320 So much to get to.

00:02:26.480 I don't even know where to begin.

00:02:27.780 So let's start in New York City.

00:02:29.560 We'll start in one of our towns.

00:02:31.740 Arthur, still living in New York, working in New York.

00:02:33.880 And this case of the migrants who got arrested and then no bail, walking out, flip the double

00:02:40.660 bird, as we call it, the double barrel, has, beyond New Yorkers, infuriated.

00:02:47.740 They were let out because of our soft on crime policies, which doesn't like bail for criminals,

00:02:54.260 accused criminals, which is what they are.

00:02:56.480 These guys beat a cop, allegedly, who was trying to move them on from loitering and potentially

00:03:01.860 doing some sort of nefarious, possibly drugs, near 42nd and 7th, right in the heart of Times

00:03:07.540 Square.

00:03:07.820 So the cops go over, a lieutenant, another guy, and before they know it, they're getting

00:03:12.440 gang-jumped and beaten by some eight guys.

00:03:17.280 And they've arrested now seven of the eight.

00:03:20.240 Five were already arraigned, and the other two, I think, were brought into custody last

00:03:24.140 night.

00:03:24.360 They're still looking for one.

00:03:25.700 They all got out without bail.

00:03:27.940 Most, not all, but most.

00:03:30.140 And now they've left town.

00:03:33.420 The reports are they're believed to have gotten on a bus and hightailed it out.

00:03:37.480 Possibly to California, Arthur.

00:03:39.660 So how has it happened that the guy who subdued that guy on the subway, trying to protect people,

00:03:47.100 he's facing trial for, what, negligent homicide?

00:03:52.300 And these guys walk out after beating cops, flipping the double bird on the road to beautiful,

00:03:58.620 sunny California.

00:04:00.220 Well, my firm is actually involved in the Daniel Penny case, which is the subway, and he's charged

00:04:05.440 with more than criminal negligent homicide.

00:04:07.120 He's also charged with manslaughter.

00:04:10.520 So last night on my radio show, I had chief of the NYPD, chief of patrol, John Chell, on

00:04:16.580 the program.

00:04:18.240 He's the direct supervisor of the two cops.

00:04:20.740 It was a regular police officer and a lieutenant.

00:04:23.260 They are so upset, besides the fact, okay, what these punks did was horrible, but the Manhattan

00:04:32.720 DA's office did not ask for bail.

00:04:36.600 And a sitting judge who has the power, even though they don't ask for bail, to send bail

00:04:40.980 herself.

00:04:42.400 And it didn't happen.

00:04:43.480 And the way I grew up in that system, you know, I mean, that this is my system where

00:04:49.200 I live.

00:04:49.620 It's insane.

00:04:50.940 It's absolutely insane.

00:04:52.440 Forget about the way we grew up as children, where touching a cop was just beyond your imagination.

00:04:58.380 But it's on video.

00:04:59.880 You know you got the right guys.

00:05:02.300 And here's, forget about dangerousness when it comes to bail laws.

00:05:05.380 It was always about, are the people going to return to court?

00:05:09.800 And what did you look at?

00:05:11.240 Community ties.

00:05:12.680 So in a positive case, you'd be like, Your Honor, my client is married.

00:05:16.240 He's got little kids.

00:05:17.260 He's lived at his sober house for 15 years.

00:05:19.380 His parents live down the block.

00:05:20.700 His mother and father are here today.

00:05:22.260 Please don't send bail.

00:05:23.240 And if you're worried about him coming back, he's probably coming here.

00:05:27.380 Guys, the only contact they have is a cell phone.

00:05:30.760 That's it.

00:05:31.620 They're living in a migrant center.

00:05:33.300 The fact that a judge does not set bail on this case, on those first four, is ridiculous.

00:05:39.640 Now, someone else went in last night while I was on the radio.

00:05:43.560 The chief got a text.

00:05:44.940 They did set $50,000 bond and $15,000 cash on one of these guys.

00:05:49.780 But tell us what it took to make that judge post or require bail of that defendant.

00:05:57.160 A different judge.

00:05:58.220 It was just a different judge.

00:06:00.600 But also, there was a show of force.

00:06:02.840 All the cops showed up.

00:06:04.380 Yes, in the courtroom.

00:06:05.600 Absolutely.

00:06:06.520 They showed up.

00:06:07.780 They sat there in the courtroom to shame the judge into doing the right thing.

00:06:11.080 Like, you're not going to just keep letting these guys go.

00:06:13.140 They flee with impunity.

00:06:15.320 Go ahead, Mark.

00:06:16.700 Okay.

00:06:17.060 I know what the right thing to say is to appease the audience, but let's break this down.

00:06:23.220 First, I agree with Arthur.

00:06:24.940 The actions of these guys were abhorrent, and they deserve to be severely punished for it.

00:06:30.820 I don't want the viewers to be misled, however, Megan.

00:06:33.420 I know you didn't mean to.

00:06:34.880 But these guys are still facing penalty.

00:06:38.500 The bond is solely to determine where they will be during the penancy of the case, and will

00:06:43.880 they return to court?

00:06:45.000 It's not supposed to be punitive.

00:06:47.220 Now, should they have been, you know, should they have posted a bond?

00:06:50.640 Maybe.

00:06:51.080 I don't know all the unique facts and circumstances.

00:06:53.780 But as long as they show back up to court when they're supposed to, and they haven't

00:06:58.380 yet fled, then everything is okay.

00:07:01.260 What do you mean?

00:07:01.980 Well, they fled, but you're saying if they can come back.

00:07:05.780 Yeah, that's it.

00:07:06.580 No, no, no.

00:07:07.040 You could say you could, you know, fled and leaving are kind of the two same things, right?

00:07:11.680 As long as they come back to court when they're supposed to, and ultimately either take a plea

00:07:16.820 or go to trial, no harm, no foul.

00:07:19.400 The bird stuff.

00:07:20.260 These guys are really going to show up.

00:07:21.480 I have every confidence.

00:07:22.680 The bird stuff.

00:07:24.660 Yeah, that's outrageous.

00:07:25.680 It just, you want more, there's a lot more venom, and you want to hate the guys even

00:07:31.000 more.

00:07:31.400 I get that.

00:07:32.640 And I'm not defending them.

00:07:33.760 What I'm saying is, the bail part is just, should they come back to court?

00:07:40.340 Yes or no?

00:07:41.500 No.

00:07:41.940 How dare you judge?

00:07:42.780 You should have done something.

00:07:44.220 And that's it.

00:07:44.800 They come back to court.

00:07:45.560 No harm, no foul.

00:07:47.340 Well, I don't know.

00:07:48.200 Megan, they're out there.

00:07:48.960 What about a state?

00:07:49.700 Don't leave town.

00:07:50.540 You're allowed to get on a bus and go across the country to California?

00:07:54.420 They're not coming back.

00:07:55.740 These guys got no money.

00:07:57.460 They're on a bus to California.

00:07:59.460 God knows how much that costs.

00:08:00.680 You think they're going to go there and then pay the fare and jump and come back again

00:08:04.580 to show up their court appears?

00:08:05.820 There is no accountability.

00:08:07.600 Lord, we have no form of address.

00:08:09.460 We should put them on a bus back to Mexico.

00:08:11.920 That's where they should go.

00:08:13.040 To Mexico.

00:08:14.040 They're punished.

00:08:14.880 Arthur, standard bond in that jurisdiction, what, they post, what, $2,500 bond?

00:08:21.820 That's going to make the difference between them showing up and not?

00:08:25.200 Sure.

00:08:25.780 What's the bond like that should be?

00:08:27.000 They don't have $2,500.

00:08:29.960 Oh, so you want to keep Venezuela.

00:08:32.400 So no bond is what you want to do for guys who just don't have the money to get out.

00:08:37.180 That's what you're doing.

00:08:37.900 I'm okay with that.

00:08:38.680 Who don't have community ties.

00:08:40.260 Who have no reason to come back to court.

00:08:42.820 Who have no reason to fight these charges.

00:08:45.320 They are going to leave and thumb.

00:08:46.840 They gave two middle fingers.

00:08:48.780 You know where their head is at.

00:08:50.480 They gave the middle fingers to the pledge.

00:08:52.680 You may be right.

00:08:53.600 It's the same thing.

00:08:54.480 I'm not defending these guys.

00:08:57.600 There is no respect for the system.

00:08:58.860 I don't like what they did.

00:09:00.120 I'm not at all a fan of them.

00:09:01.760 But understand the same policy that you and Megan want to apply to these guys.

00:09:05.700 You've got to do it to everybody.

00:09:06.840 And let's do it in every system in the world.

00:09:08.900 I agree.

00:09:09.200 So what that means is the jails.

00:09:11.720 Be prepared to build thousands of more jails.

00:09:14.800 Because then nobody's getting out.

00:09:15.880 No, Mark.

00:09:16.420 No.

00:09:16.840 That is the policy in New York.

00:09:19.660 Debate with the bail in New York.

00:09:21.580 New York is one of, I believe, two states in the whole 50.

00:09:24.420 That a judge is not allowed to take dangerousness into their analysis of to set bail or not.

00:09:31.220 In the federal system, they can say dangerousness.

00:09:33.320 In 48, you can say it's dangerousness.

00:09:35.720 But in New York, you can't.

00:09:37.020 The only standard is, is this person going to come back to court?

00:09:41.080 And that's the way it's been for decades and decades.

00:09:44.000 Here, it is so obvious that they're not going to come back to court.

00:09:48.200 Because they have no home.

00:09:50.500 They have no money.

00:09:51.440 They have no family.

00:09:52.440 They're facing the rats.

00:09:55.520 Look, they saw that press.

00:09:56.940 And no citizenship.

00:10:00.020 Get out.

00:10:01.120 Go home.

00:10:02.480 They come to America.

00:10:03.720 They commit crimes.

00:10:04.920 They beat up on cops.

00:10:06.680 They get a free pass out of jail.

00:10:08.960 And then it's the double bird to the rest of America.

00:10:11.680 This is me taking advantage of your stupid ass system.

00:10:15.540 Megan, then they go, avoid any penalty.

00:10:17.900 There's no accountability.

00:10:19.180 You send them home.

00:10:19.660 They should be punished first.

00:10:20.800 It should be Venezuela's problem.

00:10:22.720 I don't care.

00:10:23.740 Get them out of here.

00:10:24.840 That's what I want.

00:10:25.760 They already committed a crime by coming to the country illegally.

00:10:28.400 Go ahead, Arthur.

00:10:29.480 Let them do a year in jail.

00:10:31.600 Here.

00:10:32.140 Here.

00:10:32.920 I'm going to send them back home.

00:10:34.140 I don't even have fun.

00:10:36.040 Let them do a year in jail.

00:10:37.900 And come back home.

00:10:39.320 We'll see how cocky they are if they do spend some time in Rikers.

00:10:44.240 Go enjoy Rikers, where I'm sure they're going to be really happy to have a bunch of people

00:10:47.780 who sneaked into the country and are completely disdainful of Americans show up like giggles.

00:10:54.500 Right now, they're still searching for the eighth.

00:10:57.700 They're a couple.

00:10:58.240 Not all of these guys are illegals.

00:10:59.660 A couple of them.

00:11:00.360 One guy's homeless.

00:11:01.200 One guy's from the Midwest.

00:11:02.940 I think it was Minnesota, was it?

00:11:04.620 But four prior arrests.

00:11:07.100 I mean, multiple crimes behind a couple of these guys.

00:11:11.240 And the main problem is they've turned Times Square into a migrant shelter.

00:11:16.160 I mean, that's an illegal immigrant shelter.

00:11:17.920 And one of the things that comes out to me from this is it's not just that you're bringing

00:11:23.140 in a bunch of people who you don't know the background of.

00:11:25.020 You don't know whether they're dangerous.

00:11:26.340 There's clearly no respect for our laws.

00:11:28.300 But the mere creation of these migrant centers is like a call to criminals.

00:11:33.400 Come here.

00:11:34.440 Do your drugs here.

00:11:35.600 The local residents in the Post today are just describing.

00:11:38.700 They call it Times Square shelter from hell.

00:11:41.320 And it's because all the criminals decided, oh, this is a great place.

00:11:44.980 We can make contacts.

00:11:45.900 We can push drugs.

00:11:46.800 And so anybody who lives around there, you know, Hell's Kitchen or near Times Square,

00:11:50.840 is having to deal with this nonsense.

00:11:53.200 The cops are having it.

00:11:54.080 They're already outmanned.

00:11:55.780 Now they have this burden.

00:11:57.300 And as you guys well know, it's not just New York.

00:12:00.760 I like this can't go on.

00:12:03.180 Right.

00:12:03.500 This can't go on.

00:12:04.200 I don't disagree with anything you just said, by the way.

00:12:06.220 And those who harm police officers who are out there risking their lives to serve and protect

00:12:11.820 us, there should be significant penalties imposed.

00:12:15.760 Each of these guys should face incarceration for daring to be violent with officers who

00:12:21.880 are risking their lives for us.

00:12:23.580 Do not mistake my views initially concerning bond as it relates to penalty.

00:12:29.300 They shouldn't be sent back.

00:12:30.620 They should be sent back after they pay the piper for what they did to the officers.

00:12:35.000 So, Megan, a couple of things that you just said.

00:12:37.560 Number one is, well, first of all, I'm on 45th and 5th.

00:12:42.760 I am literally three blocks away from where this happened.

00:12:45.400 I was just with you there.

00:12:46.000 Marion and I went to a Broadway show last night.

00:12:50.200 We walked through Times Square and we had dinner right in Times Square.

00:12:53.220 I will say there's a tremendous show of force by the police there right now.

00:12:58.820 And what Chief Chell told me again last night was they're actually looking for more people

00:13:03.840 now because now they're saying more video.

00:13:05.820 They can see what more that's going on.

00:13:07.300 But he also said this, and I made him confirm it on the air.

00:13:11.060 He referred to New York as the safest big city in America.

00:13:14.740 And I said, Chief, I know that was true.

00:13:17.000 Is that still true?

00:13:17.900 He said, absolutely.

00:13:19.280 And to your point, that's really scary because New York is not as safe as it was.

00:13:25.260 And we're the safest.

00:13:26.580 So what about Chicago, San Francisco, Houston, Miami, et cetera?

00:13:30.580 That's very problematic for this country.

00:13:32.820 And how about the Manhattan DA's office who works hand in hand on the NYPD on almost every

00:13:39.800 single case and one of their own, basically a cop, gets beat up and they don't even ask

00:13:45.500 for supervised release.

00:13:47.720 They ask for nothing.

00:13:48.880 Judge, just let them go.

00:13:50.780 That is insane in the membrane.

00:13:53.460 That's nuts.

00:13:55.260 Yeah.

00:13:55.840 Well, they got the message once all those cops showed up to sit there on behalf of their

00:14:00.280 beaten down brother in blue and their lieutenant to say, look us in the eye and let him go

00:14:05.760 without that.

00:14:06.280 Look us in the eye.

00:14:07.040 And the new judge didn't do it.

00:14:08.680 Go ahead, Mark.

00:14:09.660 More importantly, Arthur, what show did you see?

00:14:11.680 Did you guys enjoy it?

00:14:12.440 Yeah.

00:14:12.600 What show did you see?

00:14:14.000 We saw the show Six, which is about the six wives of Henry VIII.

00:14:19.480 And it is very, very, very.

00:14:21.020 Marianne loved it.

00:14:22.000 Loved it.

00:14:23.180 Okay.

00:14:23.620 I don't go to see Ann Juliette, at least not if you're a 12-year-old girl.

00:14:27.960 I talked about it on the show yesterday.

00:14:29.480 It's fine.

00:14:30.300 I mean, it's like one of these.

00:14:31.300 It's supposed to be a warm, hearty.

00:14:34.320 Marianne, I saw it.

00:14:36.020 Yes, we saw it.

00:14:37.360 The music is great.

00:14:38.380 It's modern day music twisted into like Shakespeare.

00:14:42.040 It's supposed to be that Juliette reimagined if she lived.

00:14:45.540 I thought it was going to be a romance between her and the next guy.

00:14:49.020 And instead, it turns out it's like trans people talking about trans love and guys making

00:14:53.240 out on the stage.

00:14:54.340 It should be disclosed.

00:14:55.600 That's all I'm saying.

00:14:56.340 People coming in from the Midwest, not expecting that shit.

00:14:59.940 They're thinking, oh, it was Shakespeare.

00:15:01.480 Sure.

00:15:01.920 Whoa.

00:15:02.520 Whoa.

00:15:03.180 Okay.

00:15:03.760 I did not know what was coming my way either.

00:15:06.520 But unfortunately, living where I live now, it's like, oh, okay.

00:15:10.420 It's like almost become common.

00:15:11.760 Okay.

00:15:12.020 Everyone's, someone's got to be gay.

00:15:13.760 You know, it's got to be a twist.

00:15:14.900 It's got, okay.

00:15:15.500 All right.

00:15:15.820 Here.

00:15:16.060 That's the gay guy.

00:15:16.900 Okay.

00:15:17.100 No problem.

00:15:17.660 Move on.

00:15:18.300 It's true.

00:15:19.100 I know.

00:15:19.620 But like gay.

00:15:20.360 Yes.

00:15:20.580 You're going to Broadway.

00:15:21.420 Hello.

00:15:22.040 But trails and kissing and like, all right.

00:15:24.640 Like it's a bridge too far.

00:15:26.060 Like what?

00:15:27.140 Okay.

00:15:27.860 Let's move on.

00:15:28.280 The music was good.

00:15:29.740 The Kansas city situation is bizarre.

00:15:32.840 Like I have had almost everyone I know is like, can you believe what's going on with

00:15:36.640 those Kansas city chief fans?

00:15:37.720 Like what happened?

00:15:38.300 What happened?

00:15:38.720 So best as I can understand it, these guys went over, three friends were together and

00:15:47.080 went over to this fourth guy's house.

00:15:49.740 The three friends were later found frozen dead outside of the fourth guy's house in the

00:15:58.360 guy's backyard.

00:15:59.440 Now this guy was known for making drug cocktails, according to the New York post, among others,

00:16:04.660 the fourth guy who lived and had been dubbed quote, the chemist, according to a cousin of

00:16:09.620 one of the dead men.

00:16:11.420 And this may be why they went over there.

00:16:15.620 Now this has been the theory that potentially, because the guy, the chemist who was inside

00:16:20.260 is saying, I didn't see him two days past.

00:16:22.800 And the fiance of one of the guys said, where is he?

00:16:25.480 And called 911.

00:16:26.720 Like, I think, you know, he went over to this house.

00:16:28.580 Sure enough, he was frozen dead outside.

00:16:30.840 Three guys were, but the chemist was inside the house.

00:16:34.660 Not dead.

00:16:35.720 The police went, knocked on the door.

00:16:38.300 The guy opens the door reportedly in his underwear and with a glass of wine.

00:16:42.520 So like, what, what on with three dead guys out the backyard, right?

00:16:47.340 So this is video that the neighbor caught of it.

00:16:49.360 Go ahead, Mark.

00:16:49.740 What are you going to say?

00:16:50.720 Yeah, no, I think this is real simple.

00:16:52.140 Follow me on this.

00:16:53.160 Last night I learned on another show, we had breaking news that they released the toxicology

00:16:58.380 reports on the dead guys.

00:17:00.020 And they all had lethal doses of fentanyl in their system.

00:17:05.060 Three times the legal limit.

00:17:07.240 Okay.

00:17:07.600 Strike that three times the lethal limit, not legal limit, lethal limit.

00:17:11.920 So they're all stoned out of their minds.

00:17:14.900 Again, whether they knowingly ingested fentanyl or whether something was laced with it, which

00:17:19.960 is very common, we don't know.

00:17:21.480 But now you got three guys who are just out of their mind.

00:17:23.900 And there was also cocaine, allegedly, and marijuana found.

00:17:26.360 So they are doped to the hilt.

00:17:28.460 And then the guy inside who just went to rehab realized he has a problem.

00:17:34.220 So he's all messed up as well.

00:17:36.640 That's what happens.

00:17:37.680 And people freeze and crazy things happen.

00:17:40.720 Well, this is why you don't do drugs and you don't go to somebody called the chemist and

00:17:46.000 ask him to make a cocktail for you of any kind.

00:17:48.760 But the real question is whether this guy, the chemist, as they're referring to him, should

00:17:53.700 not be in rehab, but should be in a damn jail for serving these guys up cocktails that reportedly

00:17:59.760 had fentanyl in them.

00:18:00.920 Here is News Nation interviewing Caleb McGinney, who's the cousin to one of the decedents, Clayton

00:18:08.600 McGinney, referring to this guy, Jordan, the so-called chemist, and adding some color about

00:18:15.380 him.

00:18:15.880 Listen to Sothry.

00:18:17.520 Jordan's a chemist, bro.

00:18:19.120 Jordan's what?

00:18:19.780 Jordan's a chemist.

00:18:21.780 They all knew him as that.

00:18:23.700 It was easy for them to go have fun, but he fucked up.

00:18:28.840 He made a mistake.

00:18:30.720 Jordan was the chemist.

00:18:32.260 He's a scientist, right?

00:18:33.720 He does what he needs to do.

00:18:36.040 Now, to use my cousin, my best friend, as a guinea pig?

00:18:42.140 Jordan is somebody that is known from high school as, like, creating drugs for people

00:18:49.280 to make them feel better in certain situations.

00:18:51.620 Okay, well, you want to do this?

00:18:53.040 Okay, I'm going to make this for you.

00:18:55.360 I'm going to make this for you.

00:18:56.160 I'm going to make this for you.

00:18:57.100 And handing them out.

00:18:57.920 So, Arthur, if you're the DA overseeing this case, which has really come under national

00:19:05.000 scrutiny, do you get to make an arrest understanding that these guys had, as Mark points out, they

00:19:11.140 had, what's the, like, the lethal limo would be 30 units of Fenton or 10 limit units, and

00:19:16.860 they had 30 inside of them.

00:19:18.600 Well, especially based on some of the other cases we're going to cover today, where, you

00:19:24.940 know, people aren't that involved, like, people who are not actually pulling the trigger, and

00:19:29.120 yet they're being charged for conspiracy to murder.

00:19:31.600 If that's what we're going with, if that's what we're looking at, then absolutely an investigation

00:19:36.780 has to be done into what this guy knew, meaning Jordan, what he put in there.

00:19:43.380 And, I mean, what the confusing part of me, to me, is even though I know what Mark is saying

00:19:49.980 is accurate, about three times the lethal limit, that all three of them, not one of

00:19:54.520 those, I mean, these are 38-year-old men.

00:19:56.100 These aren't little kids.

00:19:57.480 One of them, I don't know, had the wherewithal to break a window and get inside or call for

00:20:02.900 help or anything like that.

00:20:04.640 But, I mean, we have charged people in the past who have been drug dealers with killing

00:20:10.900 people.

00:20:11.220 It doesn't happen often, and Mark just handled a drug case today, so he may be in a better

00:20:17.840 position of talking about it than I.

00:20:18.900 No, but I actually, I have a case right now where my client from a wonderful family fell

00:20:24.620 into drug use.

00:20:25.740 His dear friend, also from a wonderful family, also, I think, getting her master's degree,

00:20:30.580 they were doing drugs together.

00:20:32.360 She overdoses doing a certain, she was doing heroin or what she thought was heroin.

00:20:37.820 It was laced with fentanyl, so she overdoses.

00:20:39.980 My client is now charged with first-degree felony murder because he supplied her with

00:20:45.120 the drugs, and I checked in Missouri, has the same felony murder statute.

00:20:49.800 So if this guy, this homeowner, supplied these people with the drugs, it fits the law there.

00:20:55.140 He should be facing a potential life sentence.

00:20:57.720 And Mark, does it matter if he knew, you know, the Chinese, of course, with these Mexican drug

00:21:01.640 cartels are lining these pills with fentanyl and, you know, these substances, the fentanyl

00:21:05.860 and the people, if he didn't know, if he thought he was just giving them, you know, forgive me,

00:21:09.700 but like regular drugs, does it matter?

00:21:12.140 No, it doesn't.

00:21:12.920 It doesn't matter.

00:21:14.060 If you are in the commission of a felony and someone dies, it's felony murder.

00:21:19.500 So by him trafficking and giving them the drugs, he's committing a felony, and in doing so,

00:21:25.700 they passed away.

00:21:26.680 That is Missouri's felony murder statute.

00:21:29.560 It doesn't matter that they willingly took the drugs.

00:21:32.100 You know, it's not like he slipped him a Mickey.

00:21:34.080 They wanted him.

00:21:35.420 I wish it did, because those are the facts in my case.

00:21:38.060 And again, my client's facing a potential life sentence.

00:21:41.220 Go ahead.

00:21:41.700 How about the fact that law enforcement was saying off the bat, oh, we don't see any foul

00:21:45.960 play here.

00:21:46.480 We don't see any foul play here.

00:21:48.040 The families of the deceased are appropriately going crazy.

00:21:52.940 Well, hold on.

00:21:53.760 What do you mean you don't see any foul play here?

00:21:56.560 You have three grown men, almost 40-year-old men, just freeze in the backyard, the one sitting

00:22:02.480 in a lawn chair.

00:22:03.220 What do you mean there's no foul?

00:22:04.420 How could you come out of the box saying, we don't see any foul play here?

00:22:09.520 And what Mark is saying is accurate.

00:22:12.180 If these guys were given drugs that they thought was X, and it turned out to be Y, and it killed

00:22:17.800 them, then there is foul play here.

00:22:19.940 And I think, by the way, Jordan's lawyer, I'm sure is involved, gave him great advice,

00:22:24.260 telling him to get to rehab, because it shows some act of contrition.

00:22:27.980 But the quote that someone gave on Jordan's behalf was, the death of his three friends

00:22:35.040 was a wake-up call for him.

00:22:36.940 And so he's going to rehab.

00:22:39.780 A wake-up call for him?

00:22:41.620 Oh my God, I'd hit him in the head with a bat, a wake-up call for him.

00:22:44.980 Give me a break.

00:22:46.440 Right.

00:22:46.960 I mean, I still don't get, and I realize if you're a drugged up person, and obviously

00:22:52.360 he took some sort of drugs too, I don't know what was in his system, but I think they may

00:22:56.220 not have tested his blood, which is another problem, then you could sleep two days.

00:23:00.500 You could sleep two days.

00:23:01.440 You could be in bed two days, or maybe he didn't look out the back of the house, but the

00:23:04.280 back of the house has got some six windows in it.

00:23:06.700 I mean, how do you not know there are three dead men out there?

00:23:10.460 And how, after partying with them or serving them drug cocktails, even not knowing that

00:23:16.080 there was fentanyl, if that's the case, do you not say, hey, where are my friends?

00:23:19.260 What happened to my friends?

00:23:20.440 Gee, I must have passed out, whatever.

00:23:22.260 Let me shoot him a text.

00:23:23.880 This guy's, there's way more to this story.

00:23:26.480 Here's what the Post is reporting.

00:23:28.260 It's actually breaking.

00:23:28.900 I think NewsNation broke this.

00:23:31.420 They're basing the reports on fentanyl and a family member who has to remain anonymous

00:23:36.640 saying Coke, fentanyl, and THC showed up in the preliminary drug results.

00:23:42.880 This is per NewsNation's national correspondent, Alex Caprariello.

00:23:47.340 The family source says level 10 fentanyl is enough to kill.

00:23:50.300 The Kansas City three were at level 30.

00:23:52.480 He later added that the information was backed up and confirmed by a separate family source.

00:23:57.980 So that's where we're getting it.

00:24:00.300 The police haven't yet specifically weighed in on this.

00:24:03.240 The guy, the so-called chemist, is an HIV scientist.

00:24:08.640 So I guess knows his way around a lab.

00:24:12.380 But him being completely coked up himself, you know, out of his mind, is that a potential

00:24:19.180 defense?

00:24:19.840 Is any sort of intent required in these crimes?

00:24:22.700 Even if he didn't know fentanyl was in there, can he get out?

00:24:26.680 Like, could your drug dealer friend have gotten out of the charges, Mark, if he was so coked

00:24:32.340 up he didn't know what he was doing?

00:24:33.740 You know, he didn't have capacity to make decisions.

00:24:35.900 No.

00:24:36.380 And I'll go one step further.

00:24:37.840 He and her both thought that they were doing heroin.

00:24:40.780 He did the same batch she did.

00:24:42.800 He didn't think that there was any adverse reaction from fentanyl.

00:24:46.660 For whatever reason, she did and she died.

00:24:49.320 You know, when the police say there's no, they don't suspect foul play.

00:24:52.500 Let me defend them for a second.

00:24:53.580 And what I believe that they're saying is we don't believe that anyone has committed

00:24:57.440 any crimes that we can then establish probable cause from.

00:25:00.960 And by that, I mean, if there's no evidence that the homeowner provided the drugs that

00:25:07.360 caused their death, let's assume that for just one moment, then what do you have?

00:25:11.820 You got a drugged out homeowner who probably cares about his friends.

00:25:15.980 So he certainly didn't intentionally cause them to die.

00:25:19.840 He's tripped out.

00:25:20.940 He's messed up inside the house.

00:25:22.720 It is a wake up call for him because, oh, my God, you know, I'm so out of it.

00:25:26.360 I could have saved my friends, but I was in such a drug induced, you know, you know, just

00:25:31.500 mess that I didn't help them.

00:25:33.940 And then what do you have?

00:25:34.900 There's no crime.

00:25:35.860 The only crime here would be if you could prove that the homeowner provided them the

00:25:39.220 drugs.

00:25:39.540 And I don't know if police, you know, in my case, they had extensive text messages between

00:25:44.360 the two so they can tell that my client bought the caps that caused her demise.

00:25:48.980 But absent that evidence, you don't have it.

00:25:52.160 But, you know, you know, at the beginning of an investigation, we have three grown men

00:25:55.860 who are dead, frozen outside a house.

00:25:58.160 It's just what an investigator usually says.

00:26:00.340 We see no foul play.

00:26:01.280 What do you say?

00:26:01.820 The standard thing.

00:26:02.600 We're investigating it.

00:26:03.680 We're going to look at everything.

00:26:04.780 We're going to interview all the witnesses.

00:26:06.000 We're going to canvas everyone around.

00:26:07.640 We're going to do technology.

00:26:08.680 And then and then we'll figure out where the evidence takes us to.

00:26:12.160 You're right.

00:26:12.900 But but give don't don't punish them for giving an answer based upon what they see.

00:26:17.960 They don't think that there's foul play.

00:26:19.680 They don't think anybody locked them out.

00:26:20.920 Is that your brother?

00:26:22.180 Is that your brother or your cousin who's frozen?

00:26:25.440 And I mean, there's a weird scenario going on here.

00:26:28.560 The investigator who's in charge of everything goes, and there's no foul play.

00:26:31.780 Let's just, you know, let's marry him and we'll call it a day.

00:26:33.880 Like, don't you want to hear?

00:26:35.600 Well, they may not have the they may not have the text messages yet because the three dead

00:26:40.580 men, you know, you can't just get on the phone if you don't know the password that you're

00:26:44.340 going to have to get, you know, iCloud and all that.

00:26:46.860 So they may not have their access to their phones.

00:26:48.940 And the the man who's just checked himself into rehab, the so-called chemist, was probably

00:26:53.560 spending his first few moments deleting, deleting, deleting because he wasn't arrested.

00:26:58.440 It's not like the cops came and arrested him on site.

00:27:01.220 He's he's been free and now he's checked himself into rehab.

00:27:04.240 But that's you know, there's no such thing as deleting.

00:27:06.620 It's always there.

00:27:07.400 They're going to find it.

00:27:08.460 They're going to figure out what the or maybe this may be as clear as your case.

00:27:12.520 Maybe they did get the text messages and he didn't say, hey, guys, are you ready?

00:27:16.900 I'm coming downstairs with some fentanyl for you guys to ingest.

00:27:20.680 My guess is that there's probably nothing in text messages.

00:27:23.580 And these guys partook and I don't know that there's any eyewitnesses who are alive,

00:27:28.960 unfortunately, who can say that he's the one who provided them with the drugs.

00:27:32.980 Absent that evidence, they got nothing.

00:27:36.160 It's it's disturbing.

00:27:37.580 And it's yet another reminder.

00:27:39.400 I mean, I know I.

00:27:41.860 I keep repeating myself, just don't do drugs.

00:27:44.280 Just stop it.

00:27:45.120 Just don't do it.

00:27:45.660 Just say no, Megan.

00:27:46.660 Just say no.

00:27:47.300 I think we can all agree unless it's like chemo or something you really need.

00:27:51.900 Yeah, it's like you have to give these these rules to your kids and you say, like,

00:27:57.760 I just don't take a drug.

00:27:59.240 Don't take a drug from anybody you don't know.

00:28:00.540 And then my kids, of course, are like, not even the doctor, not even like if I know if

00:28:04.400 I met a friend's house and I got for me a Tylenol, the mom because I fell.

00:28:07.880 I'm like, well, I needed I needed the pills after back surgery.

00:28:14.660 So, again, up across the board, we really agree.

00:28:17.240 Don't say don't say yes to drugs.

00:28:19.560 I mean, don't say whatever.

00:28:20.900 Or I don't know, maybe in certain.

00:28:22.580 Don't do recreational drugs and don't take drugs from somebody you don't know.

00:28:25.720 And certainly not from somebody who goes by the name the chemist, who's known as a nefarious

00:28:30.620 person.

00:28:31.180 All right.

00:28:31.720 Stand by.

00:28:32.480 Quick break.

00:28:33.400 So many other cases to get to from Murdoch to this traconis to Fannie Willis.

00:28:40.420 A lot more to get to.

00:28:41.060 Stand by.

00:28:41.340 Quick foray into politics while I have you, because there's been a couple of big developments

00:28:48.900 in the cases against Trump that I just want to get your quick take on.

00:28:52.060 Fannie Willis remains in trouble.

00:28:54.340 The the divorce case of her alleged paramour has now been preliminarily settled as the heat

00:29:02.220 got ratcheted up.

00:29:03.620 Nathan Wade, I think, saw fit to just make his ex-wife, Jocelyn, go away.

00:29:08.440 And they've reached some sort of a settlement.

00:29:10.920 OK, that's fine.

00:29:11.840 So Fannie Willis no longer has to testify in that divorce case as she had been subpoenaed

00:29:16.980 to do.

00:29:17.480 But she is still going to have to testify and answer to the motion that's been filed

00:29:22.560 for her to recuse in the Georgia case.

00:29:25.460 Right.

00:29:25.640 That one of the defendants in that RICO case filed a motion saying she should be kicked

00:29:28.580 off the case.

00:29:29.360 She's having an affair with this co-special prosecutor and he's flying her all over the world

00:29:34.340 on the taxpayer dime, yada, yada, yada.

00:29:37.760 She has announced she refuses to recuse herself.

00:29:42.160 She's not going to recuse herself.

00:29:43.780 And so if she goes down, she's going to go down swinging.

00:29:46.340 So I think we've talked about this before.

00:29:49.220 Generally agree.

00:29:50.500 It's not doesn't look good for sure.

00:29:51.980 I mean, I don't think there's any question she's violated her ethical obligation to remain

00:29:55.740 above the appearance of impropriety.

00:29:57.680 But let's talk brass tacks, the odds of the judge throwing her off the case.

00:30:04.480 She's refusing to go.

00:30:06.220 And in the end, a judge down in Georgia is going to make the decision.

00:30:09.360 Let's assume it's all true.

00:30:10.620 She had the affair out there.

00:30:11.880 She's having it still with the special prosecutor.

00:30:14.020 She's paying him more.

00:30:15.480 Maybe they can prove it.

00:30:16.200 We'll see.

00:30:16.580 We've seen documents suggesting it's true.

00:30:18.620 Then at least one of the other co-prosecutors, the guy who has all the RICO experience, this

00:30:24.280 guy has none.

00:30:24.880 He's getting more than that than the specialist.

00:30:27.920 And then she's she's profiting on it by flying all over the world with this guy on the taxpayer

00:30:32.080 dollar.

00:30:32.940 Do you think the judge throws her off the case?

00:30:35.460 Because I'll just add why I'm asking more and more speculation in the Atlanta press and

00:30:40.540 beyond that if it's not Fannie Willis, it's nobody, that they're going to have a very hard

00:30:45.320 time finding another prosecutor to take the case.

00:30:48.800 So truly, Trump's fate in this case could come down to whether this judge bounces Fannie Willis

00:30:54.760 off of this.

00:30:57.080 Well, Megan, an open disclosure, I'm not that worried about Donald Trump.

00:31:02.080 I am very worried about my client, Ruth Giuliani, because we represent Rudy Giuliani in this case.

00:31:09.060 So I have to also watch all the words that come out of my mouth right now.

00:31:12.960 But obviously, our position is that we're joining in the application of this defendant, who's

00:31:20.540 a co-defendant of ours, saying that her ethics and her judgment have been so compromised by

00:31:28.720 the way she's handled.

00:31:29.620 You know, it's not like she's, this has to do with a different case and we found that

00:31:34.420 south and she's doing something on another matter.

00:31:36.740 It's on our case.

00:31:38.520 And you appropriately and accurately cited the facts that this guy's getting paid more than

00:31:44.900 the people with more experience.

00:31:47.220 And, you know, she's out there saying, I'm not going to recuse myself.

00:31:50.440 On February 15th, as of the airing of the show before I came on, I just checked on February

00:31:56.200 15th, there's supposed to be a hearing with the judge where everything gets put on the

00:32:01.320 table.

00:32:02.320 And since she's refusing to recuse herself, the judge may make that decision.

00:32:07.720 And I do believe you're right.

00:32:09.420 There may be a, we're looking up the Georgia law, but there may be a law saying if the DA,

00:32:14.460 not an assistant DA, but the DA gets thrown off the case by a judge because of an ethical

00:32:20.100 breach, no assistant DA in her office can step in and take her place because they're

00:32:25.940 all kind of tainted by her.

00:32:27.480 I mean, they work for her, she pays them.

00:32:30.340 So they would have to find either a different district attorney's office, or I think the

00:32:34.320 judge may have the power to appoint a special prosecutor, meaning someone in private practice

00:32:39.820 on Mark Eiglash and say, I want, I'm going to anoint you right now as special prosecutor.

00:32:43.840 But obviously on behalf of Rudy Giulietti, you know, we're very much hoping that this judge,

00:32:50.900 you know, we're very much hoping that this judge does the right thing and says, listen,

00:32:55.820 your judgment is so clouded and so beyond being an objective, you know, a prosecutor is

00:33:02.500 a quasi judicial function.

00:33:04.520 They're not, Mark and I zealously represent our clients.

00:33:07.640 Prosecutor's not supposed to, they're supposed to weigh everything out.

00:33:09.700 And that, that judgment, her judgment and her ethics have been compromised and therefore

00:33:14.660 she should not be the prosecutor on this case.

00:33:17.020 So Megan, I can answer it a little bit more directly since I don't represent Giuliani or

00:33:20.640 anybody.

00:33:21.920 First, I agree with you.

00:33:23.740 I think that if this is true, and again, I wasn't there, but let's say it is true.

00:33:28.440 It certainly creates the image of impropriety.

00:33:31.540 It gives people an argument that the system isn't necessarily fair.

00:33:36.680 So in the abundance of caution in cases like this, I'm always a fan of just saying, you

00:33:40.200 know what, there's nothing really that nefarious and we can certainly handle the case.

00:33:44.380 But in the abundance of caution, we're going to then, certainly for appellate purposes too,

00:33:48.880 we'll pass and let someone else handle it.

00:33:50.980 That said, if she chooses not to, for whatever reason it is, maybe her ego is not her amigo

00:33:56.240 or because there's too much to be lost.

00:33:59.560 If some other agency takes control of this case, then it comes into the hands of the judge.

00:34:04.960 And I think the chances of the judge removing this office are about as good as my odds of

00:34:13.180 finally making it into the NBA.

00:34:14.900 I am almost 56 years old and my jump shot sucks.

00:34:20.120 Why?

00:34:20.820 Why do you think that?

00:34:22.160 Because I haven't practiced, Megan.

00:34:24.120 I didn't grow up.

00:34:27.300 Very good, Mark.

00:34:28.480 Thank you.

00:34:29.820 Very quick.

00:34:30.940 But why?

00:34:31.620 You don't think he is going to look at this?

00:34:34.840 I don't know if it's male or female, but that the judge is going to look at this and say,

00:34:37.840 you are benefiting as a result of your relationship with a special prosecutor that you brought

00:34:43.760 in with no RICO experience.

00:34:45.580 It looks to the taxpayer like you are pushing this thing because you're going to get another

00:34:51.180 free trip to Aruba.

00:34:53.400 That's a reasonable conclusion a taxpayer could draw from your breach of your ethics.

00:34:59.780 Yeah, the judge may absolutely believe that.

00:35:01.980 The judge may find that.

00:35:03.300 But I don't believe, and I haven't done the research, but I don't believe that there's

00:35:07.480 any case that mandates this judge then to say, I'm going to make the decision then that

00:35:12.280 you're off, go find somebody else.

00:35:14.280 I just, I don't see that happening.

00:35:15.960 Those motions are rarely granted.

00:35:18.100 I will just chime in with this, Megan.

00:35:19.940 It is a male judge.

00:35:22.040 And although he's been pretty impressive in terms of controlling the courtroom, controlling,

00:35:27.860 you know, there's a lot of egos in there.

00:35:30.800 But he's also relatively new.

00:35:32.740 He's relatively new to the bench.

00:35:35.720 And, you know, it does take a certain amount of intestinal fortitude to basically throw,

00:35:42.160 throw, you know, a sitting elected DA off of a case and throw her whole office off of

00:35:48.720 a case.

00:35:49.860 However-

00:35:50.200 Is the judge elected?

00:35:50.920 Do you know if the judge is, is the judge elected or appointed there in the state court?

00:35:54.480 I should know.

00:35:55.400 I did know.

00:35:56.060 I don't want to give you the wrong answer.

00:35:57.560 So I'm not sure.

00:35:59.060 No, no, no.

00:35:59.460 But the bottom line is what Mark is saying, though, is let's just say the judge doesn't

00:36:06.120 throw her off and this goes forward.

00:36:07.980 This is a dark cloud hanging over the system.

00:36:10.480 Like, this is a dark cloud going to hang over this whole case.

00:36:12.680 And it feeds right in, right into Trump's narrative that, you know, it's the stack of the deck is

00:36:19.260 stacked against him.

00:36:20.220 I mean, it really gives a lot of a lot of fuel to that fire.

00:36:24.940 All right.

00:36:25.660 Let's switch over to E.

00:36:26.480 Jean Carroll, who's still celebrating her her big eighty three point three million dollar

00:36:31.040 defamation verdict against Trump.

00:36:34.340 That's one of the amazing things.

00:36:35.540 She didn't get the money for alleged sexual assault.

00:36:37.900 They only gave her two million on that in the first trial for the alleged defamation

00:36:42.240 of Trump calling her a lunatic, et cetera, for making this charge.

00:36:46.360 She he now has to pay her eighty three point three million.

00:36:48.640 She was seen partying after her big verdict with, of course, all these media types were

00:36:55.060 supposedly a media event.

00:36:57.000 And they decided to, I guess, have Jean Jean Carroll there.

00:37:00.460 She just showed up there, whatever.

00:37:01.680 She was seen with half of the staff at MSNBC, Lawrence O'Donnell, Washington Post, Sarah

00:37:07.480 Ellison, who is the worst.

00:37:09.820 She's a completely unethical person in my experience.

00:37:13.300 I could keep going, but they're all super happy that E.

00:37:16.940 Jean Carroll has won this verdict.

00:37:18.760 The press is completely overjoyed.

00:37:21.380 And I really have questions about what Trump should do, because let's say I know he says he's

00:37:27.000 going to appeal.

00:37:27.520 Well, I think he's got a shot on appeal, but personally, I don't think it's a great shot.

00:37:31.680 I think it's a shot.

00:37:32.880 I don't know if it's a great shot.

00:37:34.520 So my question is, Mark, normally a normal person who got an eighty three million dollar

00:37:40.220 punitive damages plus some compensatory eleven and compensatory damages award against them

00:37:45.200 would probably just filed for bankruptcy.

00:37:47.620 They would declare bankruptcy to try to avoid the judgment.

00:37:51.860 Trump.

00:37:52.960 Well, I don't know if Trump does that, given his financial situation.

00:37:56.900 And let's not forget, he's probably looking at a three hundred and seventy million dollar

00:38:03.360 judgment coming down against him within the next few days in that civil fraud trial that's

00:38:09.100 up against him.

00:38:09.660 So now, I mean, literally, he could be looking at a half a billion dollars just just under

00:38:13.980 in judgments against him in civil courts within a week or two.

00:38:19.900 So what what does he do?

00:38:22.120 What's available to him to try to get out of paying it?

00:38:24.340 We know that that would be a last resort for him, you know, declaring that half a billion

00:38:29.680 somehow sinks him.

00:38:31.640 So I don't know that he would ever want to go that route.

00:38:34.300 But let's let's discuss if he could.

00:38:36.660 And he wanted to go that route.

00:38:38.560 I'm unfortunately going to have to answer this like a lawyer, which really bothers me and

00:38:42.480 probably everybody else, because I can't give you a definitive answer.

00:38:45.620 We'll start generally.

00:38:47.300 Generally, you can declare bankruptcy and that would generally preclude you from having to

00:38:52.620 pay certain judgments against you.

00:38:55.220 But there is some law which suggests that certain judgments for certain acts would not then

00:39:02.560 be get you off the hook.

00:39:05.240 And there's one category of any type of intentional acts against others.

00:39:10.660 And I don't know if they're referring to acts of violence or does defamation fall within that

00:39:15.960 category.

00:39:16.580 So I have to tell you, I can't say with certainty.

00:39:19.960 Maybe if a court thought that defamation is an intentional act against another and it was more

00:39:25.340 akin to like an assault, an assault, then they might say you can't get rid of that debt by

00:39:29.400 declaring bankruptcy.

00:39:31.060 Yeah, I can't say I wanted to give you a black and white answer.

00:39:33.480 I can't if if he was not the president or running for president.

00:39:39.520 You know, many times Trump's declared bankruptcy, many like a lot.

00:39:44.140 Who are you trying to get them with the coffee cups at the at the kiosks selling coffee,

00:39:48.220 trying to raise money for Donald Trump after you declare bankruptcy one of the many times

00:39:51.140 I was there.

00:39:51.840 I remember back in the 90s, like it was a joke for Donald Trump.

00:39:55.560 Yeah, but I mean, it's it's a tool.

00:39:57.500 Just one of the tools in the in a bag of tricks that his lawyers have, his tax lawyers have.

00:40:02.340 Mark is correct.

00:40:03.080 There are certain debts that are dispensable and disappear during bankruptcy, and there's

00:40:07.640 some that are absolutely not.

00:40:09.740 So in my opinion, this this this would be one that's not dispensable.

00:40:16.140 Otherwise, everyone who would lose a civil trial would just file for bankruptcy.

00:40:20.120 Here's the the issue regarding the appeal.

00:40:22.400 It's really not the 83 million.

00:40:25.120 Like we hear the 83 million and I did some legal research on this.

00:40:28.520 The 83 million is 65 or something like that is here are punitive damages.

00:40:35.680 Punitive damages have been ruled even by the Supreme Court of the United States could be

00:40:39.180 up to 10 times of the lower number, the compensatory damages.

00:40:43.400 So just to make it break it down, top compensatory.

00:40:46.660 We're going to compensate you for your damages.

00:40:48.680 So you lost your job in the law firm and you were making two million dollars a year.

00:40:52.840 And in six years, it's 12 million bucks.

00:40:54.980 We're giving you 12 million bucks.

00:40:56.200 That's the compensatory damages to punish this guy, to make sure he never does it again.

00:41:01.740 We're going to add another 60 million dollars on top of that.

00:41:05.380 And courts have ruled that the 60 million is OK.

00:41:08.780 It's whether or not she really proved she had damages that totaled the 11 point something

00:41:14.400 million dollars because that part I don't see.

00:41:17.800 I know Judge Lewis Kaplan.

00:41:19.140 I've appeared before Judge Lewis Kaplan.

00:41:22.240 He clearly had his thumb on the scales here, but he's been on the bench almost 30 years.

00:41:27.880 He's a Bill Clinton appointee.

00:41:29.160 He knows how to make judgments and make rulings with enough savvy to make sure he's going to

00:41:36.640 win on appeal, push enough to get what he wants, but do it in a way that it survives the case

00:41:44.000 law that would otherwise revert the decision.

00:41:46.980 And I'll just give you one quick example.

00:41:49.020 Ms. Abba, before Donald Trump takes the stand, I want to know what questions you're going to

00:41:54.940 ask him and what answers he's going to give.

00:41:57.200 Now, this is a civil case, not a criminal case.

00:42:00.200 And for us criminal practitioners, that's insane to hear.

00:42:03.580 But here, because he was already deposed, that was permissible.

00:42:07.800 That's why.

00:42:08.500 And he said, no, you can't ask that.

00:42:10.280 No, you can't ask that.

00:42:11.500 Trump was on the stand for less than three minutes.

00:42:13.980 And I think in less than three minutes, three of his answers were stricken.

00:42:17.220 So if there's any area where the three judges on a circuit court may say, look, Judge Kaplan,

00:42:23.660 we love you, we admire you, but you really didn't give this guy a fair shake.

00:42:27.600 I think it would be on how much he limited Trump's ability to defend himself.

00:42:32.660 Because he let himself on.

00:42:34.040 He let he let Trump say, I didn't do it, period.

00:42:38.340 He didn't let him go on at all about how I've never met this person.

00:42:41.580 I've never seen her.

00:42:42.860 He didn't want to get back into all that stuff, which Trump would have been able to do had

00:42:47.460 he shown up in the actual first trial against him in which they litigated whether he sexually

00:42:51.940 assaulted this person.

00:42:53.260 He did not show up.

00:42:54.400 So he did not give testimony there.

00:42:56.020 He did show up to this one.

00:42:57.680 Once once he was found liable, he showed up for the damages and the defamation piece of

00:43:02.160 it.

00:43:02.340 And it was kind of too late.

00:43:03.820 And this judge said, all this stuff's been litigated.

00:43:05.500 You weren't you weren't here.

00:43:06.800 You're not going to get another go at it.

00:43:08.560 Question for you, Mark.

00:43:09.340 Look, one of the things that Roberta Kaplan, Robbie Kaplan said when she was arguing to

00:43:14.000 the jury, you know, E. Jean Carroll needs this money.

00:43:18.240 She she needs to go redeem her reputation out there.

00:43:21.460 She's been really damaged.

00:43:23.200 But she said something like she's going to have to go on conservative media.

00:43:27.340 And I'm trying to remember the shows that she specifically named a couple of conservative

00:43:31.740 hosts.

00:43:32.900 I think maybe Joe Rogan, who's not conservative, but he's not woke anyway.

00:43:36.820 He's not like whatever.

00:43:38.860 She named a couple of right leaners.

00:43:41.460 If she doesn't because so far, where's she gone?

00:43:44.140 She went to George Stephanopoulos on ABC News.

00:43:46.540 He's not exactly known as a Republican.

00:43:48.180 She went to Rachel Maddow.

00:43:49.920 She went to, I think, Anderson Cooper.

00:43:51.520 Like she's done.

00:43:52.060 See, these are not conservatives.

00:43:53.860 This is not conservative media.

00:43:55.320 She's not doing the thing she said she needed to be compensated for because she had to repair

00:43:59.880 her damaged reputation in conservative circles.

00:44:02.740 The liberals see her as a hero.

00:44:04.740 There was no harm done in Trump attacking her whatsoever.

00:44:08.680 So if she's got to do any repair work, it's over on the other side of the aisle.

00:44:11.220 She's done zero.

00:44:12.660 Does that affect this argument at all as she goes as they go back to Judge Kaplan and ask

00:44:17.980 him to lower the amount or as they bring it up to the Second Circuit?

00:44:21.200 I don't think so.

00:44:22.120 Same way an accident victim says, I may need therapy, I may need surgery, and then it turns

00:44:29.240 out that they don't engage in that because they choose something else.

00:44:33.220 I don't think the appellate court's in the business of tracking what did the person actually

00:44:37.280 do?

00:44:37.760 Did they follow up with that?

00:44:39.460 I don't think so.

00:44:40.340 I think that in the realm of possibility, she might need to do conservative shows.

00:44:45.320 She might need to do this and that.

00:44:47.100 And sometimes she doesn't.

00:44:49.200 And she changes her plan, but based upon what she possibly might need to do in the

00:44:53.820 future, the award was given.

00:44:57.220 Why does she need money?

00:44:59.680 Why does she need money on conservative media?

00:45:02.980 We don't accept money from the guests who want to come on the show.

00:45:05.900 Normally, just so people know in a jury, you need money to, I lost my job or I got into

00:45:13.480 this accident.

00:45:14.080 I lost my leg.

00:45:14.920 I'm not going to be able to work for the rest of my life.

00:45:16.600 I'm 35 years old, I have two kids, they do this mathematical computation.

00:45:21.120 And yeah, here's $11 million.

00:45:22.720 It should hold you over to raise your kids, get them through college to pay your overhead

00:45:26.440 and you and your bride.

00:45:27.440 And that's where the money comes from here.

00:45:29.500 I don't know what damage that she took on this woman who's an elderly person.

00:45:35.900 So they look at her life expectancy where it adds up to that number.

00:45:39.860 Well, that's the thing is they, I don't think they actually looked for real damage.

00:45:44.660 I mean, he said she was a lunatic.

00:45:46.060 He never met her.

00:45:47.480 And the jury said, we don't believe you.

00:45:49.080 We think you actually did do something to her in Bergdorf.

00:45:51.340 They didn't find him guilty of rape, but they not guilty, liable for, but they did say you

00:45:55.740 sexually assaulted her.

00:45:56.580 And then they said all that stuff where you called her a kook, that's defamation because

00:45:59.220 we believe the charge.

00:46:00.160 But I mean, the actual damage that she suffered, she's a heroine.

00:46:06.140 She's, did you see the giddiness with which they were celebrating this award all over the

00:46:10.960 mainstream media this week?

00:46:12.380 The only people who don't like E. Jean Carroll as a result of this whole skirmish are the

00:46:17.520 diehard Trump supporters.

00:46:19.180 And the reason they don't like her is not so much what Trump said about her as it is what

00:46:24.400 she said about him.

00:46:25.840 They just, they don't want anything bad said about Trump.

00:46:28.680 They don't believe anything about Trump.

00:46:30.160 They would have not liked E. Jean Carroll, even if Trump had never responded to any of

00:46:34.400 this.

00:46:34.600 I don't think his alleged defamation of her caused her any more damage than her opening

00:46:39.640 shots at him did.

00:46:41.500 In any event, a jury and a judge see it differently.

00:46:44.320 Okay.

00:46:44.660 We have much, much more to get to with the guys.

00:46:46.680 We're going to go back with Martha.

00:46:48.020 Martha.

00:46:48.480 I like that.

00:46:49.360 Maybe I should use that.

00:46:51.060 Martha stays with us.

00:46:52.880 I may have used that once before.

00:46:55.680 And while I have your attention, it's Friday.

00:46:58.540 And on Fridays, we do something great.

00:47:00.540 And that is we send you our one email of the week.

00:47:04.480 There's another Megan on this show.

00:47:05.780 Her name is Meg Storm.

00:47:07.020 And Meg Storm and I work on this thing.

00:47:08.740 And we put together the best stories from our show over the week.

00:47:11.440 And we give you all the news that will give you a overview of what happened this week in

00:47:15.960 one minute or less.

00:47:17.460 It's called the American News Minute.

00:47:18.700 So go to megankelly.com, M-E-G-Y-N, kelly.com.

00:47:23.120 Sign up for it.

00:47:23.840 And we just send you the one.

00:47:24.800 We don't harass you.

00:47:25.760 And it's super fun.

00:47:26.700 We get the best feedback on this email.

00:47:29.700 And you always get your Strudwick updates.

00:47:32.800 Yesterday, I came downstairs.

00:47:34.680 Strudwick had gotten in the pantry again.

00:47:36.680 It was lentils.

00:47:38.260 It was cornmeal.

00:47:40.480 It was croutons.

00:47:41.780 It was fried onions.

00:47:43.180 It was a whole bag of shredded coconut.

00:47:44.940 I could go on, subscribe, and you'll hear the rest.

00:47:52.300 Okay.

00:47:52.880 So Martha rejoins.

00:47:54.000 My team is reminding me that we dubbed you that back in the America's newsroom days.

00:47:58.760 Yes.

00:47:59.080 We launched that show in 2007, guys.

00:48:02.000 That's how long we've been together.

00:48:03.680 Even before.

00:48:04.520 Even before that.

00:48:05.380 Because it used to be Kendall's court before I got my divorce from my first husband.

00:48:10.700 Remember?

00:48:11.960 Yes.

00:48:12.380 Oh, I remember.

00:48:13.900 Yeah.

00:48:14.280 I mean, I remember you on the steps of the Supreme Court.

00:48:18.340 Megan Kendall reporting live from the Supreme Court.

00:48:22.240 Britt Hume really tried to convince me to keep the last name Kendall.

00:48:25.120 He was like, it's a very nice last name.

00:48:26.880 I'm like, forget it.

00:48:28.380 I'm going back to Kelly.

00:48:29.620 That's my name.

00:48:30.420 I'm getting it.

00:48:31.340 Anywho, here we all these years later still doing what we do.

00:48:34.680 Let's talk about this case of Jennifer Crumbly.

00:48:38.860 So she is the mom of the shooter.

00:48:41.740 We'll just call him the shooter.

00:48:42.660 I know everybody knows what his name is because he has the same last name as his mom, but we

00:48:47.000 don't like to say the names of mass shooters on this show.

00:48:49.740 Her son is a teenage convicted killer who went into his school and shot and killed four people in Michigan and wounded, I think, seven others.

00:49:05.080 And this case is very unusual because he's he's in jail for the rest of his life.

00:49:10.420 But they charged his mother and father for contributing to the deaths of these people because they say that they were on fair notice, that their son had mental health issues, that the school had called and said they had found these disturbed drawings and threats with blood and bullets.

00:49:29.100 And the parents, that the parents, that the parents, that the parents did nothing and that understanding their kid had these issues.

00:49:34.440 They bought him a nine millimeter and then failed to keep it away from him.

00:49:38.060 And therefore, in a novel case, they're trying to pin the murders, not just on the shooter, but on the shooter's parents.

00:49:48.160 So Jennifer Crumbly is taking the stand.

00:49:51.820 She's going first.

00:49:52.800 The husband will go later.

00:49:56.860 She took the stand and talked about how she claimed she had no health, mental health concerns about her son, which is, I say, frankly, it's tough to believe.

00:50:07.880 But here, listen to this inside.

00:50:10.080 In terms of your relationship with your son, how did you think your relationship was?

00:50:16.360 I thought we were pretty close.

00:50:17.980 I trusted him, and I felt like I had an open door and he can come to me about anything.

00:50:25.240 I mean, I felt as a family, we were, the three of us were really close.

00:50:29.040 Did you ever believe that your son needed mental health treatment, therapy, counseling, anything?

00:50:36.740 No.

00:50:37.360 I mean, anxiety about what he was going to do after high school, whether it was college, military.

00:50:44.420 So he expressed those concerns to me.

00:50:47.980 But not to the level where I felt he needed to go see a psychiatrist or a mental health professional right away now.

00:50:55.340 So what do you make of this one, Mark?

00:50:59.700 I'll start with you, Juan, whether this is your novel.

00:51:01.280 I'm so glad you're starting with me.

00:51:02.980 Okay.

00:51:03.900 I am so outraged that they're bringing these charges against her and her husband.

00:51:08.380 Okay.

00:51:09.160 This is not about whether she's a good mom.

00:51:11.540 It's not about whether she was a good wife because she had to admit to an affair.

00:51:16.440 And it's not about whether she thought maybe her son needed some counseling and she didn't get it.

00:51:21.400 Those are not criminal issues.

00:51:25.000 What they're trying to suggest is it was so reasonably foreseeable to her that he was going to shoot up a school that she should be held criminally responsible.

00:51:33.020 It falls so short of that, the evidence does, that I'm outraged that I think that they're caving to politics that they're bringing these charges.

00:51:42.240 She showed yesterday, and I watched all two hours of her testimony, that she is your average, typical mother who loved her son, who, like any teenager, had issues.

00:51:56.340 But she had no clue that he was going to shoot up kids at this school, and certainly not to the level required of culpable negligence.

00:52:06.760 They should drop the charges now.

00:52:10.180 I don't know, Arthur.

00:52:11.460 Go ahead.

00:52:12.240 Well, I mean, there is the ability to drop the charges.

00:52:15.860 There are 12 people there who are from her community who are listening to all of the evidence.

00:52:21.020 And if they agree with Mark, they'll say not guilty.

00:52:25.640 You know, look, my approach on guns is very different.

00:52:30.140 I live in a very compact area of the world in New York City where, you know, you shoot one gun and you can hit all 14 of the wrong people and you miss the one you want.

00:52:38.900 So to give a young person of that age for their birthday a gun is just not the world I live in.

00:52:45.580 But if you add to it that the school is calling and saying, not that we think he has some issues, but he's drawing pictures of guns and bullets and blood.

00:52:59.220 And then shortly thereafter, you're buying him a gun.

00:53:02.680 And does it rise to the level of criminality?

00:53:06.960 No, no, not immediately.

00:53:08.920 But 12 jurors are going to hear it.

00:53:10.920 And Mark, I don't know about you, but when I was in the DA's office, I remember there were two cases that I had to try.

00:53:17.060 And I wasn't really thrilled to try them, but they checked off all the boxes.

00:53:20.380 And I was hoping the jury would find them not guilty.

00:53:24.820 And one actually did in both.

00:53:27.160 The jury did the right thing.

00:53:28.940 This shouldn't go to a jury.

00:53:30.240 Let me explain.

00:53:30.840 Let me rebut some very fine points you just made.

00:53:33.520 Number one, she made it clear she didn't buy the gun for the son.

00:53:37.440 The husband was responsible for that to use for target practice.

00:53:41.540 It's his right.

00:53:43.120 They didn't do it when they said, oh, he's got mental issues.

00:53:45.700 They did it at a time where they didn't think that there were any issues.

00:53:48.500 That's number one.

00:53:49.500 And it was the husband's failure to keep it under lock and key that caused access to it.

00:53:53.520 That was clear.

00:53:54.280 And the evidence to her needs to be separated from the evidence against the husband.

00:53:58.680 Secondly, when they went to school that fateful day and they showed some of the drawings, and they were very disturbing drawings.

00:54:05.860 They had a discussion.

00:54:06.460 They had a discussion with the people at the school, and they gave him the option.

00:54:12.140 They said, we're not saying he needs to come home from school.

00:54:14.640 We're saying it's up to you.

00:54:15.880 And the parents, again, didn't think for a second that they were dealing with a school shooter and said, okay, he's probably better off in school.

00:54:23.600 And she texted him right before the shooting.

00:54:27.200 How you doing, son?

00:54:28.060 You good?

00:54:28.640 Yes, I love you, mom.

00:54:29.980 And the next thing you know, he's shooting up kids at school.

00:54:33.940 That's, again, a parent's worst nightmare.

00:54:37.040 But to charge her criminally makes no sense to me.

00:54:40.280 Mm-hmm.

00:54:41.620 The drawings included for the listening audience a gun and the phrases, my life is useless.

00:54:50.840 I also drew a bullet and the phrase, blood everywhere.

00:54:55.640 The thing is, though, and look, I'm waiting to hear all the evidence, but I just don't believe that the mother did not understand how mentally disturbed he was.

00:55:03.620 Somebody like this who's about to shoot up a school is going to have a long list of other problems, and maybe the school doesn't see it, but the mother sees it.

00:55:11.840 Come on.

00:55:12.980 It's very rare.

00:55:14.380 Look, I know Columbine.

00:55:15.600 We've got, like, but this mother, she said she hid bullets from him.

00:55:21.180 She tried to say it's all the dad's fault that he brought him the gun, but I was sure to hide the bullets.

00:55:25.100 Why did you hide the bullets?

00:55:26.480 Why were you doing that?

00:55:27.520 Because there's no lock-up safety law in Michigan.

00:55:30.560 She didn't have to do that.

00:55:31.880 So what was it?

00:55:32.660 And then when she found out he got in trouble at school, she sent him some text, Mark, like, LOL, you're not in trouble.

00:55:38.920 Just don't let them find out about it.

00:55:40.400 Don't let them see these things.

00:55:41.800 Like, she wasn't taking any of the warning signs seriously enough.

00:55:45.960 Megan, it's so easy after the fact to go back and put some pieces together and go, OK, I see it now, baby.

00:55:52.820 But when you're a parent, look, I have the last of my three kids is still a teenager.

00:55:57.880 He lives in my house.

00:55:59.380 He's 17 years old.

00:56:00.540 I don't know what the hell he's doing at night on his computer, on his phone.

00:56:04.480 I'm not going to go and grab it from him.

00:56:06.800 I know some parents think he should do that.

00:56:08.800 So if this kid is running some major illegal enterprise, people would say, oh, you should know.

00:56:15.140 I don't know.

00:56:16.000 And most parents don't know exactly what their kids are up to.

00:56:19.260 If they're being serious.

00:56:20.260 Mark, this was a little bit more than that.

00:56:22.180 Look, I don't feel very strongly this mom should be going to jail, OK?

00:56:25.500 I've got to put that out there.

00:56:26.740 But it's a little bit more than what you're saying.

00:56:29.340 You don't know what my kid is doing inside, you know, on his computer.

00:56:34.280 This is the school's calling you up.

00:56:36.160 She admits, I know he had some mental issues, but I didn't think they rose to the level to take him to a psychiatrist.

00:56:42.680 That's her words.

00:56:44.080 So you know something's going on.

00:56:46.160 I mean, you don't give someone a deadly weapon.

00:56:48.380 I don't even know if you give them the keys to the car.

00:56:50.280 Like, you know, you're monitoring.

00:56:51.520 You keep your eye on them.

00:56:52.600 You make sure your 17-year-old is healthy.

00:56:54.820 So you feel comfortable letting them do whatever they want on the computer.

00:56:57.940 If a parent did, I actually read an article about this one time.

00:57:02.900 If a parent did give a kid keys to a car, let's say the parent gives a 12-year-old keys to a car,

00:57:08.100 and that kid drives the car and kills somebody,

00:57:10.920 the parent could be held liable under the negligent supervision doctrine.

00:57:15.220 And it's a dangerous instrumentality, and you know that as the parent,

00:57:17.980 and you endangered the public and this specific person, too.

00:57:20.780 So it's sort of an offshoot of that.

00:57:23.320 You know, you gave someone who was mentally unwell, and you knew it, a gun, a 9mm.

00:57:30.400 He was a minor, and you saw signs of unwellness,

00:57:33.960 and then you got notified by the school about these disturbing messages, and you did nothing.

00:57:39.400 It's a similar argument, Mark.

00:57:40.920 I agree with you in theory.

00:57:43.580 I think they should prosecute parents under certain circumstances,

00:57:46.720 and the one that you gave is an appropriate one.

00:57:49.320 It's fact-sensitive.

00:57:50.940 I listened to her testimony.

00:57:53.500 If the facts were that he's plucking like a chicken,

00:57:56.760 and or indicating to her that he's going to harm someone,

00:57:59.880 or do anything other than shoot at a non-moving target with that gun for practice,

00:58:05.460 then yeah, there's a bit more there.

00:58:06.900 I can tell, and the jurors hopefully can tell, she didn't know.

00:58:12.100 She said that she wished he had shot her, because the truth is she feels so horrible about what happened.

00:58:18.720 It's compelling.

00:58:19.340 Listen to that.

00:58:20.000 It's Soundbite 9.

00:58:20.760 Do you believe there were things you were thinking at the time,

00:58:26.060 I should do this, but I'm not doing it?

00:58:28.660 Do you look back and think that?

00:58:31.080 No, I don't.

00:58:32.080 I mean, of course I look back after this all happened,

00:58:35.140 and I've asked myself if I would have done anything differently, and I wouldn't have.

00:58:41.640 If you could change what happened, would you?

00:58:44.160 Oh, absolutely.

00:58:45.080 I wish he would have killed us instead.

00:58:47.080 Wow.

00:58:47.780 Megan, talk about-

00:58:48.940 I'm having trouble feeling sorry for her.

00:58:50.840 I'm sorry, but there are four parents who will never see their children again, thanks to her kid.

00:58:56.160 Hold on.

00:58:56.840 I was going to give you that.

00:58:58.440 Two remarks, one brilliant and one equally as horrible, meaning, yeah, I wish it was me.

00:59:05.600 The emotion was there.

00:59:06.580 That was perfect.

00:59:07.220 The one before that, I would have done anything differently.

00:59:09.500 I would have prepped my client to make very clear what she's saying.

00:59:13.420 Look, if I know now, again, what I know now, if I knew it then, of course I would have done something different.

00:59:19.640 At the time-

00:59:20.540 No, but Mark, the point-

00:59:21.960 No.

00:59:22.240 No, but what she's doing by giving that answer is she's reinforcing, like, I didn't know.

00:59:27.680 I didn't know he was so off the wall.

00:59:29.280 So, no, there is nothing I would have done now.

00:59:30.960 I wouldn't have read anything.

00:59:32.260 He's texting me.

00:59:33.020 I love you.

00:59:33.960 Everything's okay.

00:59:34.760 But here's what happened, Arthur.

00:59:35.800 But listen, as far as I understand, there was one pivotal meeting at the school on November 30th, the day of the shooting.

00:59:41.980 It was hours before the shooting.

00:59:43.880 The allegations about, you know, you didn't pay attention to warning signs from the school are only about that day.

00:59:49.020 It's the other warning signs prior to that at home that she's also being questioned about, is my understanding.

00:59:54.000 But the school employees testified earlier this week in this case that they brought her in, they showed her the drawings, and that they recommended that the parents take this kid out of school and get immediate mental health assistance.

01:00:07.200 But the parents declined to do that, saying they did not want to miss work.

01:00:12.040 They said he was allowed to return to class.

01:00:14.160 Now, I mean, look, all of this is where he took a hidden gun out of his backpack and opened fire.

01:00:18.000 All of this begs the question of why the hell did the school allow this kid to go back into class?

01:00:22.720 If they're saying to the parents, oh, he's really disturbed, take him out, why didn't you kick him out?

01:00:26.800 Why didn't you?

01:00:27.820 There's supposed to be zero tolerance.

01:00:30.100 It's not up to you, parents.

01:00:31.620 Get him out.

01:00:32.840 Go ahead.

01:00:32.900 That was not her testimony.

01:00:34.460 And she seemed very credible when she's saying the school gave her the option, number one.

01:00:38.680 I know.

01:00:39.040 That's bad.

01:00:39.520 That's bad for the prosecution.

01:00:40.980 Yeah.

01:00:41.660 And I think we're on the same page.

01:00:43.480 Yeah, if the school was so alarmed, his behavior was beyond defensible, then why didn't the school say, it's over, get him out of here?

01:00:51.520 Now they're trying to charge her criminally for not seeing it, but the school clearly didn't see it.

01:00:55.340 Because school shooters do not announce to the world that they're going to do their abhorrent acts.

01:01:01.540 Well, no, sometimes they do.

01:01:02.480 They keep it to themselves, Megan.

01:01:03.840 For the most part, they do.

01:01:05.640 And parents want to believe in the most positive scenario rather than the most negative.

01:01:11.480 So if you see a child doing some disturbed drawings, you confront them.

01:01:15.720 And if there's any scenario consistent with, yeah, no, it's just a little dark sided.

01:01:19.760 I mean, anything by it.

01:01:20.540 OK.

01:01:20.880 All right.

01:01:21.180 Go back to school.

01:01:22.260 And hey, honey, are you doing OK?

01:01:23.660 Yeah, I love you, mom.

01:01:24.360 I'm doing great.

01:01:25.400 And you think everything's OK.

01:01:27.120 In hindsight, you live with the blood on your hands because you theoretically could have done something different.

01:01:33.040 But in the moment, I believe that she didn't have a clue he was going to do something like that.

01:01:38.480 All right.

01:01:39.140 Let me interrupt with some breaking news on a case we were just discussing.

01:01:43.720 Fulton County District Attorney Fannie Willis has just admitted that she had a relationship, a personal relationship, with the outside prosecutor Nathan Wade, whom she appointed to manage the election interference case against Donald Trump and his allies.

01:01:56.820 This is relevant to you here, sir, and your client, Mr. Giuliani, Idala, in a but she denied that the relationship had tainted the proceedings in a 176 page court filings.

01:02:08.980 This is per The Washington Post.

01:02:10.720 Willis called the claims against her meritless and salacious, asking a judge to reject motions from Trump and other co-defendants seeking to disqualify her and her office from the case and to do so without that February 15th hearing.

01:02:23.000 She does not want to be called to testify. That's why she's admitted she did it in this submission.

01:02:29.140 She denied claims of misconduct and said there was no evidence that the relationship between her and Wade had prejudiced the case.

01:02:37.000 Quick thoughts on that, Arthur, as somebody with a dog in this hunt.

01:02:40.460 Well, I mean, I haven't even seen 176 pages, but I, of course, she doesn't want to be on the stand and be cross-examined.

01:02:48.580 I mean, talk about being embarrassed, and that's the nicest way I can put it.

01:02:54.480 Is it going to be enough for a judge to say, OK, we believe you and I'm not going to even have a hearing?

01:02:59.600 I hope not.

01:03:00.360 I mean, you're talking about, forget about my client, who happens to be a pretty prestigious person in the country, but you're talking about the former president of the United States, the leading candidate for the Republicans to be the next president of the United States.

01:03:14.020 On her word, I didn't do anything wrong.

01:03:16.860 Everything's fine.

01:03:17.600 Everything's above board.

01:03:18.800 Let's just pass this on.

01:03:20.000 I mean, if I'm a judge, at the very least, I am having a hearing, you know, looking at some finances, looking at who spent what, where.

01:03:28.700 Look, here's the truth, Megan.

01:03:30.220 If this lawyer has millions of dollars in the bank and the $600,000 he's gotten so far is meaningless, well, you look at it in what way?

01:03:39.600 If this lawyer was kind of a struggling guy and he had $50,000 in the bank and now he's got $600,000, well, then I think you look at it in a very different way.

01:03:48.280 Why and why did she appoint him?

01:03:51.220 I mean, there's a degree of corruption there, a degree of political corruption.

01:03:56.600 If I'm the judge, I want to see his resume.

01:03:58.500 I want to ask him all the cases he's done.

01:04:00.440 And then I want to put him on the scene.

01:04:01.720 Why did you pick him?

01:04:02.580 This judge is not going to let her avoid this hearing.

01:04:05.340 That's not happening.

01:04:06.940 And even if by some miracle she did manage to avoid it, she's going to be giving testimony.

01:04:12.560 Jim Jordan just subpoenaed her from the U.S. House.

01:04:15.200 There's a Georgia legislature looking into this as well.

01:04:17.940 I can't remember if it was the State House or the Senate down there in Georgia.

01:04:20.200 I think it's the Senate.

01:04:21.280 So she's been subpoenaed by a couple of different entities.

01:04:23.380 She's going to give testimony about this and she's not going to be able to dodge.

01:04:27.600 So we're going to get the full enchilada at some point soon.

01:04:30.940 Biggest problem, I know you want to move on, but the biggest problem she's going to have

01:04:34.700 is the lack of credentials of her lover to handle this particular case.

01:04:40.760 Yeah.

01:04:41.040 And yet he's getting paid more than the guy who has all the credentials in the world.

01:04:43.840 Go ahead, Mark.

01:04:44.200 Yeah, the judge doesn't make that determination and say, well, he then shouldn't be on the case.

01:04:50.920 That's not for a judge to decide.

01:04:52.720 That's for her to decide.

01:04:54.240 Mark, Mark.

01:04:54.720 It goes under the violation.

01:04:56.720 I still believe in the abundance of caution.

01:04:58.840 It gives the image of impropriety.

01:05:00.580 Just have someone else handle this case so we could stop all these rumblings, you know.

01:05:04.880 But it is relevant.

01:05:05.880 It is relevant, Arthur, because it goes to the ethical violation.

01:05:09.440 It's the same thing as Cori Bush being criminally investigated right now by the DOJ.

01:05:13.800 It's part of the squad representative because they're saying you paid your husband.

01:05:17.420 It looks like this.

01:05:18.520 We haven't confirmed.

01:05:19.680 This is what it's based on.

01:05:21.040 But it sounds like you paid your husband all this money to provide security for you, even

01:05:25.180 though he's not a licensed guard.

01:05:26.720 He's not some security expert, and you paid him what we think is potentially above market

01:05:32.640 rates, and that's not OK.

01:05:34.280 You can't use funds like that to line the pockets of a lover or a family member.

01:05:40.480 Same thing, Mark.

01:05:41.180 So it is relevant, Mark.

01:05:42.660 I'm going to disagree with you.

01:05:43.600 It is relevant what his experience is.

01:05:46.720 If he is a former federal prosecutor, he's handled cases like this before.

01:05:50.620 He's done five recall cases.

01:05:52.440 And you know what?

01:05:52.960 It passes the smell test.

01:05:54.680 But of all the lawyers in her office, which is a big office, all the lawyers in Georgia,

01:06:00.840 he's the one who has no experience with Rico.

01:06:04.140 And she picks make at least the case that didn't even start it.

01:06:07.160 We're not even in pretrial hearings.

01:06:08.440 He's made almost three quarters of a million dollars.

01:06:11.120 I know you make a lot of money, but that's a lot of money.

01:06:13.880 Great argument in the court of public opinion.

01:06:15.560 It fails in the court of law.

01:06:16.960 The judge is not going to take the extraordinary step of removing, even though there is the image

01:06:21.760 of impropriety.

01:06:22.700 Next.

01:06:22.920 So we looked it up.

01:06:24.760 This judge was appointed.

01:06:26.440 Sounds like maybe there was a vacancy and he got appointed to the bench because he's

01:06:30.580 now running for reelection to be reelected to the position.

01:06:34.000 He was appointed by the Republican governor, Brian Kemp.

01:06:37.380 Don't know anything without further searching about this judge's personal politics, but that's

01:06:41.820 we did look it up and that's what we found.

01:06:43.880 OK, so we'll see.

01:06:45.280 Fannie's trying to get out of testifying.

01:06:46.600 Good luck, sister.

01:06:47.340 Not going to happen.

01:06:49.300 Finishing up on Crumbly.

01:06:50.560 I just I do want to play some sound of the prosecutor because I thought the prosecutor

01:06:54.720 made a pretty compelling argument to the jury.

01:06:58.220 This is assistant prosecutor Mark Keast in trying to explain why Jennifer, the mother,

01:07:03.920 is on trial.

01:07:04.980 Like, why?

01:07:05.380 Why are we charging her?

01:07:06.580 Take a listen to that.

01:07:07.860 The six.

01:07:09.700 They died on November the 30th of 2021.

01:07:13.340 They weren't in a car crash.

01:07:15.220 They weren't sick.

01:07:17.000 They were murdered in an act of terror committed by Jennifer Crumbly's 15 year old son.

01:07:22.100 Jennifer Crumbly didn't pull the trigger that day, but she is responsible for those deaths.

01:07:29.060 I mean, he's kind of putting it out there in civil court, 51 percent preponderance of the

01:07:36.580 evidence.

01:07:36.980 Is it reasonably foreseeable?

01:07:39.400 Fifty one percent different story when you're holding parents accountable for criminal acts

01:07:45.680 that were not known to her different story.

01:07:48.560 If you said a number of times, you know, mom, I'm going to kill some of these kids with this

01:07:52.600 gun and she just didn't take him seriously.

01:07:54.860 And he constantly talked about killing people.

01:07:58.920 Then we start to get closer.

01:08:00.280 But the text messages that he had were between him and his friend.

01:08:04.040 And he told his friend how he had he was hearing voices and he was this and that paranoid and

01:08:08.260 this and that.

01:08:08.920 That was never shared with her.

01:08:10.720 She didn't know it.

01:08:12.040 You can't impute that.

01:08:13.520 But OK, but it's still negligence, Mark.

01:08:15.580 I know it's a different standard.

01:08:16.880 Obviously, we all know between.

01:08:18.160 So we agree.

01:08:18.720 We're done.

01:08:19.720 But it's still negligence.

01:08:21.160 It's it's criminal.

01:08:22.460 It's negligence that's so severe.

01:08:24.860 It rises to the level of criminality.

01:08:27.420 And as opposed to being punished by money, you get punished by jail.

01:08:31.560 I'm not saying one thing about this is it feels like a before and after moment for parents

01:08:36.620 and in the school shooter realm.

01:08:38.660 Like.

01:08:40.000 I'm all for holding parents accountable if they really do know and they don't do anything

01:08:44.020 and they're negligent.

01:08:45.000 And as a result, somebody dies.

01:08:46.340 Really, there are cases that are very strong.

01:08:48.420 I agree.

01:08:49.260 This this case may not be the one.

01:08:51.340 So we'll see.

01:08:52.200 We'll let the let the jury have the final say after they listen to everything.

01:08:54.860 Alec Baldwin, guys back in the news, pleading not guilty after charges were revived against

01:09:00.460 him in New Mexico for this shooting of Helena Hutchins, the cinematographer on the set of

01:09:06.620 his movie Rust.

01:09:07.960 He got charged and then they dropped him and then they brought him back.

01:09:13.420 And now he's entered a plea of not guilty to involuntary manslaughter.

01:09:18.760 They say in a court TV write up about this.

01:09:22.620 The grand jury indictment provides the special prosecutors, because remember, the main prosecutor

01:09:27.180 got bounced for some reason with two alternate alternative standards for pursuing the felony

01:09:33.420 charge against him.

01:09:34.480 One would be based on the negligent use of a firearm.

01:09:37.740 A second would be he'd be found guilty if they could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that

01:09:43.400 he caused her death without due caution or circumspection.

01:09:47.740 Also defined as an act committed with total disregard or indifference for the safety of

01:09:52.420 life of others.

01:09:53.060 That sounds like a difference between negligent negligence and recklessness.

01:09:56.700 So if it's just negligent use of a firearm, I mean, are they going to be able to prove

01:10:01.520 that?

01:10:01.780 Because, look, the FBI, others are going to be able to say, you pulled the trigger.

01:10:05.460 You pointed it at her.

01:10:06.300 You pulled the trigger.

01:10:07.060 That's how she died.

01:10:07.980 I know you didn't know it was loaded, but you didn't check it.

01:10:10.660 And that's industry standard.

01:10:12.840 So I'll give you the first crack at this one, Arthur.

01:10:16.440 Well, the FBI actually is the one who cleared him.

01:10:19.180 The FBI, the initial first FBI report, said that the gun could go off the way he said it

01:10:24.760 did, which is like, I didn't even pull the trigger.

01:10:27.180 And the new indictment is based on an Arizona company who went through the gun and said,

01:10:33.680 no, no, no, you would have to pull the trigger.

01:10:36.960 What he said immediately thereafter is actually a lie.

01:10:40.040 And so that's what the indictment is based on.

01:10:43.620 By the way, I think it's an interesting fact.

01:10:45.060 The gun actually broke during the testing period of it all.

01:10:48.940 But look, the three of us have covered hundreds of cases.

01:10:52.300 It is so rare that there's like, there's charges, then there's no charges.

01:10:56.140 Then there's an indictment, then there's no indictment.

01:10:58.540 Now there's an indictment again.

01:11:00.120 It really comes down to, in my opinion, the woman who is in charge of the handling of the

01:11:05.340 gun and whether she lived up to her obligations, whether she has criminal negligence, because

01:11:12.500 you can hate Alec Baldwin.

01:11:15.720 No, there's not supposed to be a live round anywhere on that set.

01:11:19.720 And that's not an actor's responsibility to figure out, oh, are there any live rounds?

01:11:24.560 I mean, maybe now actors are doing that.

01:11:26.300 I wouldn't blame them if they were doing it now.

01:11:27.980 But that's not his role.

01:11:29.440 That's not his job.

01:11:30.280 He's trusting that the gun that they're giving him and the bullets that are in there are

01:11:35.620 bent.

01:11:38.000 Megan, let's change the facts for a second.

01:11:42.360 Let's say the day of shooting, instead of using the gun that had been carefully selected

01:11:47.400 for him, Alec said, and these are not the facts, but let's say he says, you know what,

01:11:50.720 let's just use my gun.

01:11:51.800 I want to use trusty trigger here.

01:11:54.840 And he's not sure whether it's loaded.

01:11:56.780 He thinks he emptied it.

01:11:57.900 Maybe he didn't.

01:11:58.480 And he pulls the trigger without even looking.

01:12:01.340 Ah, culpable negligence.

01:12:03.560 Alec, you should never have done that.

01:12:05.280 When you hire someone whose sole purpose is to ensure that the gun is safe and that's

01:12:13.060 handed to him, he is an actor on the set.

01:12:17.600 He is no expert in guns.

01:12:20.040 He's not supposed to know live rounds versus fake rounds.

01:12:22.960 He hired someone to do that.

01:12:24.500 This is not a close call.

01:12:26.560 Putting aside anyone's disdain for Alec and his politics, putting aside what you feel

01:12:32.760 about him as a person, this case should not be in criminal court.

01:12:38.000 Take him to civil court and sue him for damages.

01:12:41.420 And I don't even know if they win there, Mark.

01:12:43.940 I don't even know if they win.

01:12:44.840 I'm not saying, listen, I'm not saying that they win there.

01:12:47.460 I'm not saying take it out of criminal court.

01:12:50.320 That one would be based.

01:12:51.240 But still, Megan, you have people all around you that you trust all the time.

01:12:57.560 No, I get it.

01:12:58.520 I get it.

01:12:59.100 But you're going to have testimony by top actors saying the standard of care in the industry

01:13:03.860 is to check the gun yourself.

01:13:05.220 Even if they hand it to you, the armorer or the first assistant director as here hands

01:13:10.080 it and says, cold gun, the standard of care in the industry is you look yourself.

01:13:13.580 That's that's a layer of protection that he failed to do.

01:13:17.520 He'll deny it.

01:13:18.360 But that's, you know, he clearly.

01:13:20.220 I mean, I'm just wondering, do you think Julia Roberts knows how to check a gun and

01:13:24.400 see whether I'm not being facetious?

01:13:26.140 No, I don't.

01:13:27.600 I've been raising this point all along.

01:13:29.220 The here's the thing.

01:13:31.120 The the bullets were it's been a while since I've looked at this, but there are the live

01:13:35.520 rounds, which are actual bullets that can shoot you and kill you.

01:13:39.040 We're not supposed to be in the gun.

01:13:40.660 But then there's dummy rounds in there, which are basically like beauty guns.

01:13:45.220 They are bullets.

01:13:46.120 They're supposed to look just like a real bullet.

01:13:48.140 It's supposed to look right.

01:13:49.820 Fool an audience that it's a real bullet because you use them for like a Colt 45 where the audience

01:13:54.720 can see the bullets and they have to look real.

01:13:57.540 And there's the way the armorer tells them apart is to shake them.

01:14:02.400 And one shakes a lot and one shakes very little.

01:14:05.460 You know, you don't hear a sound.

01:14:06.760 And that's how the gun expert tells.

01:14:08.760 So, no, I think you're raising a good point.

01:14:10.540 How is the actor supposed to go through this whole thing on the set by looking at the dummy

01:14:14.100 rounds versus the real?

01:14:15.500 This is why the the chart is controversial.

01:14:17.820 The actor is an expert on memorizing lines and knowing what side he looks good from and

01:14:24.100 focusing on his body language.

01:14:26.100 He's supposed to also be an expert in that moment.

01:14:29.540 No, that's why they paid good money to that person.

01:14:32.300 But they also say you don't point the gun at anybody on a set that it's not.

01:14:37.980 You shouldn't have pointed directly at her.

01:14:39.800 He denies he did it.

01:14:41.320 Clearly, he did it because she she got shot and she died.

01:14:44.240 So, all right, let me pause it there.

01:14:45.760 We we have no clarity on the Alec Baldwin case.

01:14:47.780 But I agree with you that that prosecution is by no means a done deal.

01:14:52.780 More on the Nathan Wade, Fannie Willis thing.

01:14:54.720 It's pouring in as reporters like Tamar Hellerman from the Atlantic Journal Constitution weighs

01:15:00.180 in in an affidavit included with the D.A.'s filing.

01:15:03.900 Nathan Wade, he's the alleged paramour.

01:15:05.820 Her special prosecutor she brought in says he and Fannie Willis developed a personal relationship

01:15:10.040 in 2022 after he was hired on the Trump case, quote, no funds paid to me in compensation

01:15:18.840 for my role as special prosecutor have been shared with or provided to D.A. Willis.

01:15:25.160 Now, I'm sorry, but that seems like a sleight of hand because we know from we think we know

01:15:32.480 from the credit card records that were released in the divorce case that he bought Fannie Willis

01:15:37.520 plane tickets to Miami.

01:15:40.060 They went on a cruise together down to Aruba, that they went out to Napa together and he paid

01:15:44.800 for those plane tickets.

01:15:46.620 So money being fungible to me, the way I read this, Arthur, is he's trying to say prove that

01:15:52.760 I took my exact paycheck I got from Fannie and transferred it over to Fannie's plane tickets

01:15:58.560 or Fannie's cruise tickets or, you know, gave her cash from that check.

01:16:02.940 That's that's not how this works.

01:16:05.260 Maybe he's arguing she paid him back.

01:16:07.800 She I don't know what the but we saw the receipts that he bought her.

01:16:12.180 And in one instance, his mother tickets on a lovely cruise and a lovely trip they were

01:16:16.680 all taking.

01:16:17.300 In fact, two or three of them.

01:16:18.340 Um, I actually think the bigger question, the bigger point that he raises there, which

01:16:24.400 I would you're giving me breaking news right now.

01:16:28.500 So I have enough time to think about this.

01:16:31.020 But if he's saying, oh, she appointed me first and then we fell in love, you know, that may

01:16:38.640 change the calculus a little bit.

01:16:40.240 But I want to know what was their relationship before she appointed him, because I do think

01:16:46.240 that changes the if I'm being absolutely candid and honest here, I think that changes the

01:16:51.260 equation is they were lovers.

01:16:52.880 And then she appointed him versus he was a total stranger that she heard.

01:16:57.440 He was a good trial lawyer.

01:16:58.680 He wasn't a stranger.

01:17:00.040 He was a mentor to her.

01:17:02.040 He was on the bench for a short time with smaller cases, not nothing big like a federal

01:17:07.540 Rico, anything like that.

01:17:09.040 But he was allegedly a mentor to her and she brought him in.

01:17:12.900 Now, it's also the case that the day I believe, let me try to get this right.

01:17:17.120 The day after the divorce case was filed against his wife or I think it was the day after the

01:17:25.460 divorce case was filed, he got hired by Fannie Willis, which is kind of a little coordination

01:17:31.440 there, that's for sure, because he was going to make a lot of money doing that.

01:17:36.300 And I don't know how that would play out in the laws of the state of Georgia.

01:17:40.660 Look, to me, this screams out for a hearing that has to be had.

01:17:45.040 The judge just needs to hear the facts.

01:17:47.000 Maybe Mark is right and nothing's going to happen.

01:17:49.140 But it'll stink to high heaven if the judge just says, yeah, I got their papers.

01:17:53.640 I believe them.

01:17:54.980 Next, you know, let's just move on.

01:17:56.300 And that's not going to satisfy the public policy of transparency in a case of this magnitude

01:18:02.520 or quite frankly, any magnitude.

01:18:04.340 I don't care if the guy was on trial, is a defendant on trial for DWI.

01:18:08.520 It's, you know, everyone, there's no one above the law.

01:18:11.020 There's no one beneath the law.

01:18:12.320 Let's find out what happened here and let the chips fall where they may.

01:18:15.860 Yeah.

01:18:16.620 Yeah.

01:18:16.960 Look, she will be giving testimony.

01:18:19.860 I don't know whether it's in this court.

01:18:21.280 I think it will be in this court and before the U.S. Congress, before the Georgia Senate.

01:18:25.260 There's a few different bodies looking into Fannie Willis.

01:18:27.660 It's not over.

01:18:28.980 And the way it works in the law is you don't get to just say that.

01:18:31.380 You don't get to just say, oh, trust me, I didn't pay for any trips.

01:18:34.400 We'll find out.

01:18:35.280 You'll have to give that testimony under oath.

01:18:37.680 And look, as an officer of the court, if that's a lie, he's already in trouble.

01:18:41.260 So more to follow.

01:18:42.520 All right.

01:18:42.680 We got to pause there.

01:18:43.820 We'll save Michelle Traconis for another day.

01:18:46.820 The Connecticut woman who is alleged to have been in a love affair with this guy,

01:18:51.240 Botas Doulas, who was accused of killing his wife, Jennifer.

01:18:54.440 One thing I want to say about that case, though, is what's alleged is that, you know,

01:19:00.420 he was having this affair with a woman who's now on trial.

01:19:02.760 She's on trial for helping him dispose of things that Jennifer Doulas was allegedly wearing

01:19:07.400 the day of the murder.

01:19:09.960 He will never be held to account because he took his own life by suicide.

01:19:13.660 Jennifer Doulas all this time has been alleged to be missing by his defenders and even by Michelle

01:19:20.360 Traconis's defenders saying, oh, she was having an affair.

01:19:23.220 She didn't know.

01:19:23.920 You know, we don't know whether Jennifer's dead.

01:19:25.220 She's been declared dead by a court.

01:19:26.960 But the testimony we heard this week in this court has made clear beyond any doubt that Jennifer

01:19:32.440 Doulas is dead.

01:19:34.180 She was murdered.

01:19:35.220 She was murdered by Fotas Doulas.

01:19:36.980 And what they have produced to this jury includes her bloody clothing, her bra and her blouse

01:19:42.820 and a razor blade, all with her DNA on it, sliced right down the middle.

01:19:48.140 Other items of clothing that she was wearing.

01:19:51.160 She's dead.

01:19:52.120 She was killed by her husband.

01:19:55.180 And this woman, Michelle Traconis, is on tape with him the night of the murders, disposing

01:20:01.000 of those very items that I just ticked off for you.

01:20:04.040 So the prosecution, in my view, is doing a very good job of proving to the jury she did

01:20:10.320 work with him to cover it up.

01:20:11.620 She lied for him repeatedly.

01:20:13.080 She told the cops that she was with him that day and she wasn't.

01:20:17.140 She later had to admit it.

01:20:18.320 So we don't have time to get into the whole thing.

01:20:20.480 But you guys tell me quickly before we go, do you think she's going to be convicted in

01:20:24.180 this case, given what you've seen?

01:20:25.380 I'll go Mark and then Arthur.

01:20:27.500 Here's the short version.

01:20:28.840 Yes.

01:20:29.160 And I didn't disagree with anything you just said.

01:20:30.820 The video just showed, you know, she originally said they were together in the morning.

01:20:35.840 This is an alibi list.

01:20:37.920 Once they cross-examine her, not on trial, but the investigators, she gave it all up and

01:20:42.460 said, well, no, that's not true.

01:20:43.520 That's not true.

01:20:44.400 So it looks like her hands are pretty dirty in terms of disposing of all this evidence

01:20:48.220 and the conspiracy to murder.

01:20:51.080 I mean, you're involved.

01:20:52.540 Yeah.

01:20:52.920 Yeah.

01:20:53.120 There's no question she's been lying from the start and she ought to be held to account.

01:20:57.760 I certainly am rooting for a guilty plea, a guilty verdict in that case.

01:21:01.900 Guys, you're the best.

01:21:03.420 Martha strikes again.

01:21:04.780 Loved talking to you both.

01:21:06.160 Thank you for having us.

01:21:07.660 Always a pleasure.

01:21:09.060 Good to see you, Arthur.

01:21:10.140 Bye, guys.

01:21:10.860 Okay.

01:21:11.720 Up next, we go in-depth on the Alec Murdoch trial and what just happened in his push to

01:21:17.740 get a new one.

01:21:18.680 With a former attorney general of South Carolina, I've been listening to this guy on a podcast of

01:21:22.040 his own since this case began.

01:21:24.020 He's very good.

01:21:24.740 He's very knowledgeable and he's going to explain what's happening.

01:21:28.000 I'm Megan Kelly, host of The Megan Kelly Show on Sirius XM.

01:21:32.200 It's your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations with the most interesting and

01:21:36.920 important political, legal, and cultural figures today.

01:21:40.240 You can catch The Megan Kelly Show on Triumph, a Sirius XM channel featuring lots of hosts

01:21:44.800 you may know and probably love.

01:21:47.200 Great people like Dr. Laura, Glenn Beck, Nancy Grace, Dave Ramsey, and yours truly, Megan Kelly.

01:21:54.500 You can stream The Megan Kelly Show on Sirius XM at home or anywhere you are.

01:21:59.000 No car required.

01:22:00.700 I do it all the time.

01:22:01.760 I love the Sirius XM app.

01:22:04.340 It has ad-free music coverage of every major sport, comedy, talk, podcast, and more.

01:22:10.040 Subscribe now.

01:22:10.740 Get your first three months for free.

01:22:12.120 Go to SiriusXM.com slash MK show to subscribe and get three months free.

01:22:18.720 That's SiriusXM.com slash MK show and get three months free.

01:22:24.540 Offer details apply.

01:22:30.580 Let's talk Alec Murdoch.

01:22:32.220 Big update in that case this week.

01:22:34.000 And we are joined today to discuss it by former attorney general of South Carolina and co-host

01:22:38.940 of the podcast called Murdoch Murders, Money and Mystery, Unsolved, South Carolina, Charlie Condon.

01:22:46.080 Welcome to the show, Charlie.

01:22:47.320 It's a pleasure to meet you.

01:22:48.540 Same here.

01:22:49.180 Happy Friday, Megan.

01:22:50.460 Oh, and I really enjoy the show.

01:22:52.240 I listened to the three of you throughout the whole trial and thought all of your analysis

01:22:55.540 was terrific.

01:22:56.540 So thank you for doing the podcast.

01:22:58.340 I'm sure you're a busy man.

01:22:59.200 So what happened this week in court was Judge Toll, who had been brought in to decide whether

01:23:05.680 he should get a new trial or not, decided he's not getting one.

01:23:09.220 And it was interesting because she set a very high bar for the defense to meet in order to

01:23:15.900 get a new trial.

01:23:16.880 She could have said, you just have to prove the court clerk interfered with the jurors.

01:23:22.840 And if she had set that as the standard, they probably would have gotten a new trial.

01:23:26.960 Or she could have said, no, the standard is interference, plus it mattered, plus the jurors

01:23:33.340 say, you know what?

01:23:34.600 It actually did influence our verdict.

01:23:36.280 And she decided to go with that much tougher standard.

01:23:39.460 And still, the defense did a pretty good job of meeting it.

01:23:44.520 I mean, you tell me.

01:23:45.520 And she still said, nope, because things unfolded in a way on the stand that really kind of persuaded

01:23:50.700 her.

01:23:51.360 It wasn't quite enough.

01:23:52.540 But were you stunned when Juror Z took the stand and testified, you know what?

01:23:58.980 The court clerk did kind of say some things to me.

01:24:01.260 And yeah, I did feel influenced.

01:24:03.780 Wow.

01:24:03.980 I'm really impressed that you have kept up with that closely.

01:24:07.140 Your analysis is impressive.

01:24:10.260 But hear me out on this, because I was not surprised.

01:24:13.420 When Juror Z testified, she did say the magic word, so to speak, that, hey, what the clerk

01:24:21.380 told me affected my verdict directly.

01:24:25.020 But the defense went further, though.

01:24:27.340 They then introduced her affidavit in which she said that the verdict was the product of

01:24:35.740 being coerced by other jurors, not by information by the clerk.

01:24:39.460 And Justice Toll, she's a very experienced judge and also a trial judge and has lots of

01:24:45.920 legal experience.

01:24:46.780 She then asked really the magic question at that point.

01:24:50.740 And the question was this, is what you just said, that you were pressured by other jurors

01:24:55.240 more accurately reflect what you mean to say in effect?

01:24:58.720 And she said, yes.

01:25:00.060 Questioning stopped.

01:25:00.920 And so I think Justice Toll has a really good record to be upheld on appeal, regardless

01:25:05.720 of whatever standard our Supreme Court applies in this case.

01:25:10.280 Now, there is some dispute as to what the standard ought to be.

01:25:13.600 But I thought when you sat there for the entire day, when you sat through the testimony and

01:25:18.200 heard it firsthand, I do think that the record is good for Justice Toll to be upheld on appeal.

01:25:24.200 Here's Justice Toll explaining why, notwithstanding the juror's testimony, that the court did say

01:25:32.780 something to her, the clerk did say something to her that made her feel like, quote, he was

01:25:36.620 already guilty before a verdict.

01:25:38.720 The judge was going to say he doesn't get a new trial.

01:25:40.940 Here it is in Sot 10.

01:25:41.880 Take a listen.

01:25:42.260 I simply do not believe that the authority of our South Carolina Supreme Court requires

01:25:50.240 a new trial in a very lengthy trial such as this on the strength of some fleeting and foolish

01:25:57.960 comments by a publicity-influenced clerk of court.

01:26:02.660 This is a matter within the discretion of the trial judge, and I am the trial judge at this

01:26:09.860 moment.

01:26:10.140 I do not feel that I abuse my discretion when I find the defendant's motion for a new trial

01:26:18.720 on the factual record before me must be denied, and it is so ordered.

01:26:27.280 So, Charlie, one of the things that people who are Johnny-come-latelys to the case may not

01:26:33.300 appreciate is truly the amount of evidence against Alec Murdoch.

01:26:38.120 And it sounds like Judge Toll, though she wasn't the one who tried the case, was very

01:26:42.500 well versed in the mountains of proof against this guy.

01:26:45.940 Well said.

01:26:48.260 A Himalayan mountain of evidence.

01:26:50.520 I sat in that trial for six straight weeks.

01:26:53.420 And Alec Murdoch would have to be the most unluckiest man in the universe not to have committed these

01:27:00.280 murders.

01:27:00.740 The evidence that came rolling in day after day after day, and he himself didn't help

01:27:06.500 himself when he testified.

01:27:07.860 So, you're right.

01:27:08.840 I think the backdrop to this, and Justice Toll did say that she read the entire record.

01:27:12.880 And what also needs to be said is, of course, we had that one juror, Juror Z, that I think

01:27:17.440 was the best defense witness.

01:27:19.380 But there were 10 other jurors that testified on Monday, and one that testified on Friday.

01:27:24.360 And they were very clear in that their verdict was the product of only the evidence in court,

01:27:29.640 and nothing extraneous that the clerk may or may not have said.

01:27:32.680 So, it's a really strong case for the defense, I mean, for the prosecution.

01:27:36.120 And I do think, again, they're going to do their best to get this reversal on appeal,

01:27:40.880 and they may have another issue relative to the admission of financial crimes.

01:27:44.720 But on appeal, I do think the record favors the prosecution, and I do expect the case to

01:27:50.320 be affirmed.

01:27:52.060 Dick Harpoulian was one of the lawyers representing Alec Murdoch, and he got his chance to cross-examine

01:27:57.140 court clerk Becky Hill.

01:27:58.820 It was interesting, because I listened to you guys on this podcast talk about Becky Hill.

01:28:02.340 You've been around the South Carolina court system your adult life.

01:28:05.520 And people seemed to really like this woman.

01:28:08.060 She was, you know, warm, sounds like a warm Southern lady who is, you know, a charmer.

01:28:12.700 And I, you correct me if I'm wrong, I heard some skepticism on the part of you and your

01:28:18.400 colleagues when these allegations are first made that she may have interfered with the

01:28:21.700 jury.

01:28:22.200 And then the more you got to look at what she was alleged to have done in the investigations

01:28:26.940 into her, allegedly working with her son, who was also employed by the court to spy on

01:28:30.460 other court employees who may have been investigating her.

01:28:32.360 And then, you know, the cross-examination that the judge did of her and of Harpoulian, you

01:28:36.840 guys realize, I mean, I've, I sensed a change in you, Charlie, like, whoa, okay, maybe we

01:28:42.500 misjudged Becky Hill.

01:28:44.040 Well said.

01:28:45.060 I didn't know Becky Hill before the trial started, but having been there for six straight weeks,

01:28:50.300 and she was really courteous, spent lots of time with her.

01:28:54.340 I remember one lunch I had with her, which was delightful.

01:28:59.120 And you just thought that she ran a really good courtroom and did a really good job.

01:29:03.500 The case, which was a massive case for the small Southern county, was just so well run.

01:29:09.260 I just had the highest respect for her.

01:29:11.780 But I must say, as the book came out, the plagiarism allegations, and the cross-examination

01:29:19.280 by the defense and by Justice Toll in particular, her credibility was shot.

01:29:26.260 And you just have to think that some things that untoward went on, and we'll see where

01:29:31.660 the future holds, what the future holds for her.

01:29:34.020 I do think she could be the subject of some really serious criminal investigations down

01:29:38.080 in light of her testimony.

01:29:39.180 We had some investigations going on already.

01:29:41.100 It's been a disappointment, because like you say, I did think the highest of her, and I

01:29:47.540 do think she's really basically a nice lady at heart.

01:29:51.880 But I think Justice Toll said it well when she said that the siren call of publicity caused

01:29:58.000 her to do things that went on, and I wish her the best going forward.

01:30:02.500 But I do think that the issues that have been raised are really serious.

01:30:06.520 Siren call of celebrity lured Becky Hill, and she was attracted by it.

01:30:11.100 She wanted to write a book, said the judge, about the trial, and made that clear.

01:30:16.760 Here's a little of—well, I'll start with Justice Toll grilling Becky Hill on how she

01:30:22.020 wanted a guilty verdict.

01:30:23.540 Again, this woman is accused of interfering with the case, of going and saying to the

01:30:28.060 jurors before they had deliberated, make sure you watch him and don't be fooled by the evidence

01:30:33.440 presented by Alec Murdoch and his lawyers.

01:30:36.880 Pay attention.

01:30:37.360 Like, totally inappropriate if said.

01:30:40.020 She denies it, but the judge, Justice Toll, knew that Becky Hill was not a truth teller.

01:30:47.160 Take a listen to Stop 13.

01:30:48.160 You wanted a guilty verdict because it would increase the sales of the book.

01:30:54.220 Did you ever say that in an email or verbally or in any other way?

01:31:00.300 No, ma'am, I did not.

01:31:01.800 It didn't matter to me if it was guilty, not guilty, or a mistrial.

01:31:06.540 Well, in your book, you suggest that the guilty verdict was what you wanted and you were fearful

01:31:12.420 that a guilty verdict would not be rendered.

01:31:15.720 You say that a lot about your feeling about wanting a guilty verdict, do you not?

01:31:20.760 I do agree that that is said in the book.

01:31:23.420 Well, this is way—you were describing a time way before the verdict was rendered when

01:31:29.420 you wrote about those things in the book.

01:31:32.220 Isn't that correct?

01:31:33.600 It is, yes.

01:31:34.580 And you even have something where you said your eyes met with jurors and others at Moselle,

01:31:40.440 and y'all have an understanding, unspoken, that he was guilty.

01:31:44.920 You said that in the book, did you not?

01:31:47.180 I did say that in the book.

01:31:49.920 Kudos to Justice Toll.

01:31:51.520 Can I ask you, Charlie, to zoom out?

01:31:53.440 Here's this—she seems so nice.

01:31:55.120 You're, you know, you're a lawyer, so you've got to have a level of skepticism about you

01:31:58.960 just as a natural person.

01:32:00.240 I can relate.

01:32:01.120 Um, she seems like such a nice lady.

01:32:05.360 Alec Murdoch, same.

01:32:06.900 He was beloved.

01:32:07.800 These guys were kings of South Carolina.

01:32:10.160 And what we've learned over the past year plus, as we've watched this trial go, is be careful.

01:32:15.760 Be careful, you know, judging these books by their covers, because even though they can

01:32:20.660 sweeten it up with a smile and the Southern drawl, which I think we all kind of love as

01:32:24.380 Americans, um, dig more.

01:32:26.860 Pay attention to the facts and not so much the affect, because you could be getting misled.

01:32:32.640 Very astute point.

01:32:34.000 Uh, I didn't know Alec Murdoch.

01:32:36.240 I knew his dad well.

01:32:37.700 I knew his grandfather well.

01:32:39.240 And so any thought that he would be involved in any criminal conduct, it wouldn't occur

01:32:43.600 to me that that would have occurred.

01:32:45.240 Same with Becky Hill.

01:32:46.180 Again, I'm not saying she's guilty of anything.

01:32:48.160 You said she's presumed innocent and hasn't been found guilty of any crimes.

01:32:52.040 But when you watched her testify very directly that she didn't have anything, didn't have

01:32:57.760 any motivation for the book, guilty verdict or not.

01:33:00.640 And then her dear, she said it was her friend, her friend, the clerk of Barnville County, then

01:33:04.380 testified just shortly thereafter was the exact opposite.

01:33:09.480 It's, it was really disappointing.

01:33:11.180 And I do think that, uh, you're right.

01:33:13.280 You can't judge a book by its cover.

01:33:15.080 It's, it's, it's necessary to look beyond that, particularly when it comes to important

01:33:19.940 matters.

01:33:20.340 So Alec Murdoch is going to go back to jail.

01:33:24.160 He's back in jail now.

01:33:25.060 He's already been convicted on the financial crimes for 27 years.

01:33:28.060 And then this is a life sentence for him, double life sentences for the murder of his

01:33:31.980 wife and his son.

01:33:33.100 I agree with you for all intents and purposes.

01:33:35.660 It's done.

01:33:36.380 I don't have any hope for his appellate chances with all due respect to his lawyers who are

01:33:40.940 very good.

01:33:42.260 And so what does this whole thing say to you now?

01:33:44.740 I mean, this case has been the focus of the nation for years as the big reveal came out

01:33:50.580 that, oh my God, it appears to have been Alec Murdoch.

01:33:53.680 You know, no one knew at first that this pair is dead.

01:33:56.500 My, my own impression from up here as a Yankee is, uh, the South Carolina courts and system

01:34:02.160 did a very good job of trying this case.

01:34:03.780 And there was the height of professionalism on both sides.

01:34:07.340 Nothing's perfect.

01:34:08.680 Um, but this guy was running a fraud for a long time within his respected law firm.

01:34:15.000 He was hurting a lot of people.

01:34:16.460 There may have been allegedly more than one murder.

01:34:18.920 That's all being investigated.

01:34:20.360 So how do you see it now with some 2020 hindsight?

01:34:23.620 Well, 2020 hindsight, very good question.

01:34:27.320 It has surprised me that he was able to get away with this.

01:34:31.700 I think the first fraud that he testified or admitted was 2014.

01:34:37.120 And when you looked at the number of people that he victimized and how he victimized them,

01:34:42.420 it was apparent to me he couldn't have been alone.

01:34:45.080 And of course that turned out to be correct that the banker had another lawyer involved.

01:34:50.000 And so I do think has, has caused a lot of self-reflection among us in the legal system

01:34:55.500 here in South Carolina.

01:34:56.320 How can we stop this in the future?

01:34:58.420 And I don't know if we have any sure way of stopping it other than to recognize that

01:35:05.380 there's a trust element that has to go on with the legal system.

01:35:08.840 We have to have procedures in place.

01:35:11.200 Do not just simply sign off on something because somebody prominent is asking you to do that.

01:35:15.440 I do think that might have happened in his case.

01:35:17.780 But at the end of the day, I think it calls for everybody in the legal system, judges, lawyers,

01:35:23.780 paralegals, corrupts, you name it, be on guard for things that may be at miss and stop them

01:35:28.800 as soon as you're aware of anything going wrong.

01:35:31.980 Hmm.

01:35:32.760 What a crazy case.

01:35:34.040 It's been absolutely riveting.

01:35:35.900 And I'm glad she came to the right decision.

01:35:38.640 We don't need to go through this again.

01:35:40.680 And Becky, Becky Hill, we'll be watching to see what happens with her.

01:35:43.920 I'm still interested.

01:35:45.040 I don't think it's going to end well for her either.

01:35:46.900 Charlie, all the best to you and your colleagues.

01:35:49.120 Thank you.

01:35:49.580 I don't know if you caught that, by the way.

01:35:50.760 If the defense says they're going to name somebody that may have committed these murders

01:35:53.940 in the near future, I don't think that will go anywhere.

01:35:55.920 But stay tuned on the Murdoch case.

01:35:58.220 Yeah.

01:36:00.020 OJ's out there looking for the real murderers, too.

01:36:02.480 All the best.

01:36:03.420 See you soon, I hope.

01:36:04.300 Thank you.

01:36:04.620 And don't forget, folks, we'll be back on Monday with my pal Paul Murray from Australia

01:36:08.300 with an in-depth look at how they keep out millions of illegal immigrants trying to

01:36:13.080 get across their borders.

01:36:14.160 Why can't we do the same?

01:36:18.500 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show.

01:36:20.460 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - February 02, 2024

Crime Friday： Frozen Kansas City Chiefs Fans, and Fani Willis Admits Affair, with Arthur Aidala, Mark Eiglarsh, and Charlie Condon ｜ Ep. 716

Episode Stats

Length

Words per Minute

Word Count

Sentence Count

Misogynist Sentences

Hate Speech Sentences

Summary

Transcript